[sf-lug] systemd criticism

Wed Aug 27 12:51:46 PDT 2014

systemd is not used as init in ubuntu. hence no pid 1. systemd is composed
of several component, ubuntu uses the logind (user/session management)
component of systemd. Mostly because the older solution (consolekit) is no
longer maintained, and ubuntu needed something thats maintained and
supports policykit (another component in session management). Dbus
integration (provides easier communication protocol to different apps in a
single desktop environment) is another systemd component ubuntu uses (not
sure it a derived requirement from logind).

there are several awesome thing the systemd does (like socket activation),
and initially lot larger group of folks were interested due to those
nifty/slick but very important features. As time went, systemd started
replacing several components that are already stable/manageble  as
independent daemon (i think resolvd was added recently :-) ), and that i
think went worse overtime. it will be interesting what debian and ubuntu
does in future

cheers
ranjib

On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 12:07 PM, jim <jim at well.com> wrote:

>
> On my laptop running Ubuntu 12.04.X
>
> $ man systemd
> No manual entry for systemd
>
> $ ps aux | grep system
> 102        987  0.0  0.0  25652  2576 ?        Ss   Aug01   5:02
> dbus-daemon --system --fork --activation=upstart
> root      2402  0.0  0.1  95548 12348 ?        S    Aug01   0:00
> /usr/bin/python /usr/lib/system-service/system-service-d
> jim      12614  0.0  0.0  13592   932 pts/4    S+   11:58   0:00 grep
> --color=auto system
>
> ~$ ps aux | grep init
> root         1  0.0  0.0  24568  2524 ?        Ss   Aug01   0:02 /sbin/init
>
>
> From Wikipedia
> *systemd* is a system management daemon
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daemon_%28computing%29> designed for Linux
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux> and programmed exclusively for the Linux
> API
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_kernel_interfaces#Kernel.E2.80.93user_space_API>.
> For systems using it, it is the first process
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Process_%28computing%29> which is executed
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_%28computing%29> in user space
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_space> during the Linux startup process
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_startup_process>. Therefore, systemd
> serves as the root of the user space's process tree
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Process_tree>.
>
>
> JS: I think of the kernel as process 0 and init as process 1.
> I read the Wikipedia excerpt as systemd replacing init, i.e.
> systemd has process ID 1 and init need not apply.
>
> JS: I find the LKML link uninformative for my experience
> (i.e. I feel the need for answers to questions about the
> underlying scheme of things--kernel kicks off init and
> things go from there: how does systemd fit in, as a
> replacement for init or as PID 2 or what, and then what's
> the role of init?)
>
>
>
>
>
> On 08/26/2014 02:35 PM, Jeff Bragg wrote:
>
> Mostly more discussion:
>
> http://lwn.net/Articles/602579/
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 2:33 PM, Jeff Bragg <jackofnotrades at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Here are a couple of links from my history that explain some of the
>> relevant issues.  The first link is an article, the second discussion about
>> it, as far as I can tell.
>>
>> http://ewontfix.com/14/
>> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7210064
>>
>>
>>  On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 2:25 PM, Jeff Bragg <jackofnotrades at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>  Brian:  Yes, it does.  Sorry, I probably should have provided some
>>> warning.
>>>
>>>  Akkana:  It is light on concrete criticisms.  I've come across
>>> discussions with more detail, I just didn't have the links to hand when I
>>> sent this.  I'll try to track them back down and add them here.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 2:03 PM, Akkana Peck <akkana at shallowsky.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jeff Bragg:
>>>> >> I'm sympathetic to the points made here.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> https://lkml.org/lkml/2014/8/12/459
>>>>
>>>>  I think I'm sympathetic, but ... what are the actual points?
>>>> I see a lot of flameage, and a lot of namecalling, and no concrete
>>>> reasons he hates systemd so much, no details on how it messed up
>>>> his system.
>>>>
>>>> It would be a lot more helpful to write about regressions caused by
>>>> systemd. Like:
>>>>
>>>> Brian Wood writes:
>>>> > I accidentally got a lot of junk in my log file... the same error
>>>> > over and over.  i tried to find a way to clean out the junk, but
>>>>
>>>>  A couple of lines like that contain more detail than Christopher
>>>> Barry's whole rant. Or:
>>>>
>>>> > wasn't able to in part because the log was in binary.
>>>>
>>>>  Binary logs? Really? Now that's a good concrete argument against
>>>> systemd.
>>>>
>>>> I haven't delved into systemd much, and I'm curious to hear about
>>>> the good and bad about it. I did fight with upstart quite a bit, and
>>>> found it a big step backward from SysV init files -- mostly because
>>>> everything was done with undocumented compiled binaries rather than
>>>> self-documenting shell scripts, so if you wanted to change anything
>>>> about the boot process, you had to download (sometimes quite a lot
>>>> of) C source, read it, and maybe rebuild and install it. I gather
>>>> that's true of systemd too, and that it affects a lot more of the
>>>> system than upstart (more than just boot).
>>>>
>>>> But I haven't hit any actual problems with systemd yet on Jessie
>>>> or Sid.  So I'm curious to hear what the problems are, and their
>>>> workarounds, since I'm sure I'll hit them eventually.  "systemd is a
>>>> trojan. systemd is a medusa ... groups with agendas ... just don't
>>>> believe in freedom" just isn't very enlightening.
>>>>
>>>>         ...Akkana
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
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