[conspire] Or secure boot, or ... Re: 64-bit hardware, UEFI ... maybe the UEFI is 32-bit? Re: Michael Paoli to be @ CABAL ... RE: CABAL ... Debian "blind" install: RE: (forw) issue encountered during installation

[Michael Paoli]

So, on may way to BerkeleyLUG today
https://berkeleylug.com/meetings/
And was talking to Tom via Jitsi Meet before I
arrived at the physical location - he suggested another
possible issue.  Secure boot.  May need to disable
secure boot in BIOS/CMOS - that may possibly be the issue
that's preventing the installed Debian from booting on David's hardware,
but boots ISO fine.

I did today, also try 11.4 multi-arch + non-free firmware.
When I try to boot it with speech synthesis (hit "s" from boot
menu) on UEFI VM, it fails, but if I change the VM to MBR (disable
UEFI) it then boots with speech synthesis fine off the ISO.
So, there's some glitch there - I'm presuming with the installer
and not the VM virtual hardware.  Don't know but maybe that (presumed)
bug snuck in on 11.4 or somewhat earlier or multi-arch or its
version with non-free firmware added.  Let me/us know if you find
differently with physical hardware and/or if you find Debian already has
bug reported on this (and perhaps work-around noted no the bug).
Anyway, I may poke at it again in the not-too-horribly-distant future,
but at least thus far today that's what I've got to add.

Anyway, if 11.4 multi-arch + non-free firmware doesn't properly boot
with speech synthesis on physical UEFI hardware, maybe check out the
secure boot situation - see if that's disabled in BIOS/CMOS - if that
corrects it, that may be quite simple enough - and maybe that's all that's
needed to get the install to boot okay.  In any case, the multi-arch ISO
11.4 + non-free firmware ought boot okay with speech synthesis - so there's
probably some bug there - possibly in how config was updated for the
installer on the ISO.  Who knows, maybe 11.3 (or 11.2 or ...) works fine.

> From: "Michael Paoli" <Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu>
> Subject: 64-bit hardware, UEFI ... maybe the UEFI is 32-bit? Re:  
> Michael Paoli to be @ CABAL ... RE: CABAL ... Debian "blind"  
> install: RE: [conspire] (forw) issue encountered during installation
> Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2022 11:33:07 -0700

> Forward progress was made,
> but didn't quite get a successful install completed on David's
> hardware.
>
> Shortly after leaving CABAL, a possible explanation occurred to
> me, but first, wee bit of background on where we did get to.
>
> So, to try and approximately match, at least virtually, for myself,
> what David was doing/attempting, I set up Virtual Machine (VM, in this
> case under VirtualBox) on my laptop (work laptop I'd taken with me).
> First to make sure I had audio (notably David being legally blind and
> using speech synthesis), I set up VM, and booted Debian Live with the
> non-free firmware.  Had some minor issues fiddling with the VM configuration,
> but once that was sufficiently squared away, I confirmed the audio was
> working and I could hear it from VM onto physical machine (GUI didn't come
> up for me for some odd reason, but from text console, I just found a
> .wav file, use aplay to play it, and was able to confirm audio was
> working as needed).  From there I went about reconfiguring VM to do
> a Debian install (from the 11.3 amd64 ("64-bit") netinst ISO (11.4 was
> released Saturday, but when I'd checked earlier, 11.4 wasn't yet available
> as ISO on the mirrors - I presume they were still catching up - that
> generally takes some hours to about a day or so).
>
> Anyway, I was able to do a successful install on VM ... but David
> wasn't on his physical hardware (I believe it was laptop).  All
> seemed fine through the install, but then when reboot time came ...
> apparently "nothing" - no audio, and from what David reported on
> regarding earlier attempts, apparently the installation would fail
> to boot, although it otherwise seemed to have successfully installed.
>
> In our poking at it a bit more, determined he was on UEFI, and on my
> VM I wasn't.  And also easy to tell - even blind:
> "To enable speech, pressing 's' (again, followed by return on BIOS  
> systems but not on UEFI systems)"
> https://wiki.debian.org/accessibility#Debian_installer_accessibility
> So, David had hardware that was using UEFI.
> So I reconfigured my VM for UEFI and reinstalled,
> again successfully on the VM with speech synthesis and it coming up
> and booting fine and with speech synthesis active upon boot,
> and also its installation behavior confirmed that the installer knew
> it was being installed on a UEFI system.
>
> Anyway, bit after leaving CABAL, it occurred to me - I recalled hearing
> of some systems that, though the hardware is mostly or entirely
> 64-bit, the UEFI subsystem or essential components thereof, is only
> 32-bit.  Though one could install 32-bit - e.g. Debian's i386, that
> wouldn't be optimal solution - and I recalled hearing more generally
> that there's solution or work-around(s) for 64-bit hardware that
> has 32-bit UEFI.  Researching a tiny bit on that, looks like these
> days on Debian, the solution for that is actually pretty easy:
> "Support for mixed-mode systems: 64-bit system with 32-bit UEFI" ...
> "The multi-arch installation media" ...
> "include the UEFI boot loaders necessary for both i386 and amd64  
> boot. By selecting "64-bit install" from the initial boot menu,  
> debian-installer will install a 64-bit (amd64) version of Debian.  
> The system will automatically detect that the underlying UEFI  
> firmware is 32-bit and will install the appropriate version of  
> grub-efi to work with it."
> https://wiki.debian.org/UEFI#Support_for_mixed-mode_systems:_64-bit_system_with_32-bit_UEFI
> So, I'd suggest trying that as a next logical step - that might very well
> solve the issue - and isn't too difficult to attempt as a next step.
> I'll probably also try it on VM in a bit, to see if it works as
> expected ... although on VM, I may have no way to emulate 32-bit UEFI
> on otherwise 64-bit hardware.  But I should at least be able to
> likewise use that image and do 64-bit OS install - and with it
> automagically probing/checking the UEFI and installing the correct
> variant, and doing that all through speech synthesis install and
> that then also being enabled and functioning upon reboot at the end
> of the installation.  Also, I believe network will generally be required
> for this type of install, as I believe that multi-arch media is
> relatively minimal and will need network to be able to usefully
> complete the install ... or maybe there are versions that have more
> on them? - I forget - but at some point network will generally be needed
> anyway, and also much easier to do the installation and configuration if
> network is available at install time - as then the installation will
> be configured with the networking in place and operational - thus one
> less set of configuration items to do after completion of install.
>
>> From: "Michael Paoli" <Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu>
>> Subject: Michael Paoli to be @ CABAL ... RE: CABAL ... Debian  
>> "blind" install: RE: [conspire] (forw) issue	encountered during  
>> installation
>> Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2022 12:12:39 -0700
>
>> ... and planning to get myself to CABAL
>> I'll likely bring chips and the makings for dip.
>>
>> So, yep, in person + Jitsi Meet.
>>
>> And to join Jitsi Meet, you don't need anything special,
>> can do it all within browser ...
>> https://meet.jit.si/CABAL
>> or can also just dial in from
>> phone for audio only.  The URL has all the options, links,
>> number(s) and/or can expand with a click or two to see all the relevant
>> numbers.
>> US Dial-in: +1.512.647.1431 PIN: 3654 3335 40#
>> For many "smart" phones you can put in:
>> + 1512-647-1431,3654333540#
>> And that generally works automagically dialing in.  Clicking the
>> "right spot" on the web page or link from there will also typically
>> have such phones automagically dial that.
>>
>>> From: "David Chan" <chandtw at pacbell.net>
>>> Subject: RE: CABAL ... Debian "blind" install: RE: [conspire]  
>>> (forw) issue	encountered during installation
>>> Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 08:21:10 -0700
>>
>>> The Debian blind install has improved since we last did it, now it  
>>> is just the press of a key,and it is also using software speech  
>>> instead of the hardware synthesizer
>>>
>>> I was using the unofficial version that included the firmware, I  
>>> will download the official version in a bit and we can try another  
>>> install using that this evening
>>>
>>> Do I need to download anything, or just click the link to join in  
>>> the fun?  Talk in a bit, and thanks again
>>>
>>> --David
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Michael Paoli <Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu>
>>> Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2022 8:09 AM
>>> To: chandtw at pacbell.net
>>> Cc: conspire at linuxmafia.com
>>> Subject: CABAL ... Debian "blind" install: RE: [conspire] (forw)  
>>> issue encountered during installation
>>>
>>> I'm intending to at least make it virtually  
>>> http://meet.jit.si/CABAL to CABAL today ... maybe even in person,  
>>> as it sounds mightily deliciously tempting:
>>> http://linuxmafia.com/pipermail/conspire/2022-July/012114.html
>>>
>>> In either case, intending to at least also be there virtually, and  
>>> also see if I can work out doing a proper blind Debian install.   
>>> Don't think I'll give myself the extra challenge of doing it  
>>> without watching - as I'm probably not nearly so adept in  
>>> navigating it by audio - but hoping I can come up with the full  
>>> sequence/procedure that should work without having to actually  
>>> look/watch, and hopefully I'll pay quite enough attention  
>>> listening also, so if there's any procedural or menu glitch or bug  
>>> in doing a blind install, that I'd also catch and note it.
>>>
>>> Intending to do it on a Virtual Machine (VM) ... so there may be  
>>> hardware differences, but other than that, expecting it ought be  
>>> about the same.  Most of the time I don't even bother or think  
>>> about audio on a VM - so I'll have to be sure I get that  
>>> functional too.  Even rather surprises me when I happen to  
>>> discover I have that, as usually I'm not using audio on a VM ...  
>>> and sometimes catches my by surprise when I find it's there and  
>>> fully functional ... e.g.
>>> like when I fire up a GUI browser under X and play some video that  
>>> also has audio, or likewise fire up browser and do Jitsi Meet on  
>>> that within VM and the audio and video are all perfectly  
>>> operational.
>>> I think I did that about a year or two ago on testing out a system  
>>> I did a Debian install on - plus Debian VM within.
>>>
>>> Anyway, should be bit of exercise/experiment for me, as I don't  
>>> think I've actually run through Debian's blind installation  
>>> procedures in ... well, many years.  But it ought work smoothly  
>>> enough.
>>>
>>> I'll also download relevant ISOs ahead of time, so I should have  
>>> those available for the VM to use, and mostly avoid excessive  
>>> network or download needs, etc.
>>>
>>> I'll update if/when I'll be on my way to go there in person or if  
>>> that turns out to be my plan.
>>>
>>>> From: "David Chan" <chandtw at pacbell.net>
>>>> Subject: RE: [conspire] (forw) issue encountered during installation
>>>> Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 20:02:38 -0700
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am not sure if I can show up in person, since I am in the middle of
>>>> a conference that runs on Central time zone, but I can join virtually
>>>> though [at least for this month, maybe I can come in person next
>>>> month?]
>>>>
>>>> I was able to get speech during the Debian installation, but when it
>>>> comes time to reboot it appears some components are missing from the
>>>> installation, and it keeps looking for the boot device, and I wasn't
>>>> sure if it is because of the SSD or if it is something else; the
>>>> ubuntu installed successfully, I just wasn't able to activate the
>>>> speech after the install, and I believe there is no option installing
>>>> using speech
>>>>
>>>> --David
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Michael Paoli <Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2022 6:17 AM
>>>> To: David Chan <chandtw at pacbell.net>
>>>> Cc: conspire at linuxmafia.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [conspire] (forw) issue encountered during installation
>>>>
>>>> Let's see ... has been a while - alas, well over a decade - since I
>>>> last assisted a user with a Linux installation for blind user.  I
>>>> ought practice more - at least once in a while, make sure it works, or
>>>> at least mostly does so, and get myself at least a bit more familiar
>>>> with the procedure.
>>>>
>>>> Peeking at some Debian documents, e.g.:
>>>> https://wiki.debian.org/accessibility#Debian_installer_accessibility
>>>> It seems it should mostly "just work" - though there are at least some
>>>> specific steps to be followed along the way - e.g. notably activating
>>>> speech during install.  Anyway, I'm also much more familiar with
>>>> Debian than Ubuntu ... though I'd guestimate Ubuntu would be
>>>> relatively similar ... ish?  But don't think I've ever attempted that
>>>> with Ubuntu, and I'd guestimate likely that support
>>>> is better on Debian.  Perhaps you'll make the next CABAL meeting.
>>>> If so, perhaps let us know in advance.
>>>> I might make it to the next CABAL meeting.  And also of relevance, the
>>>> conspire list, if you've not joined:
>>>> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/conspire
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, also, my guestimates where things might've gone sideways or
>>>> failed with the earlier installation, etc. attempts - I comment
>>>> in-line further below:
>>>>
>>>>> From: "Rick Moen" <rick at linuxmafia.com>
>>>>> Subject: [conspire] (forw) issue encountered during installation
>>>>> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2022 23:44:08 -0700
>>>>
>>>>> Sending so more folks look at this.  I've just clarified to David
>>>>> that the next CABAL event will be July _9th_.
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Forwarded message from David Chan <chandtw at pacbell.net> -----
>>>>>
>>>>> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2022 21:42:43 -0700
>>>>> From: David Chan <chandtw at pacbell.net>
>>>>> To: installers at linuxmafia.com
>>>>> Subject: issue encountered during installation
>>>>> Reply-To: chandtw at pacbell.net
>>>>>
>>>>> I am not sure if I can make it in person next Saturday, is there
>>>>> still virtual meeting option available?
>>>>
>>>> I believe virtual will also be available again - in more recent many
>>>> months, generally in-person - with proof of vaccination - has been
>>>> available, and also virtual - which started during the pandemic.
>>>> Watch the conspire list for confirmation and URL - but I'm also
>>>> guesmating the URL for virtual will likely be the same.  And the
>>>> archives are open to the public, so anyone can read postings, even if
>>>> they're not a member of the list.
>>>>
>>>>> Blind user that uses a screen review package called 'speakup' which
>>>>> is usually in a kernel module but is sometimes done as a kernel patch
>>>>>
>>>>> Attempted installation on a Toshiba Satellite CT55 with a Samsung
>>>>> 500G SSD
>>>>>
>>>>> With ubuntu server 22.04LTS, OS install was successful, and I can see
>>>>> the module was loaded:
>>>>
>>>> As for Ubuntu, Ubuntu-Server would be a good choice for blind, as it
>>>> forgoes the ewey GUI stuff, and, at least last I checked, the
>>>> installer for Ubuntu-Server is essentially the Debian installer plus
>>>> some modest Ubuntu customizations - probably most notably for many is
>>>> different color scheme - but there are some other modest differences
>>>> too.
>>>>
>>>>> # modprobe speakup_soft
>>>>>
>>>>> The 'espeakup' package is then installed to make the computer talk:
>>>>>
>>>>> # Apt-get install espeakup
>>>>>
>>>>> However, there was no speech after the install of the package
>>>>> finished, and I am unable to figure why it is not talking - maybe the
>>>>> firmware driver is incorrect?
>>>>
>>>> Not sure, but one thing I might guess as a possibility, and I've
>>>> sometimes run across this with Debian installs, and have seen what
>>>> looks to be same or similar from at least some fair number of user
>>>> installs of, notably Debian, but Ubuntu may be quite similar in this
>>>> particular regard.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, often on a fresh install, I find folks complain of no audio.
>>>> And terse summary of my response is generally along the lines of:
>>>> "Volume?"
>>>> Most notably, as often I find/observe/hear that at least by default,
>>>> though the audio typically installs fine, it often initially defaults
>>>> on a fresh new install to having the volume levels start out set to
>>>> zero.  So sometimes it's a mere matter of turning up the volume in
>>>> relevant configuration and/or controls.  At least that's the most
>>>> common issue I see with "no sound" on a fresh Debian installation -
>>>> and may well be likewise for Ubuntu.
>>>>
>>>>> Switched to Debian 11.3, choose 's' for speech at the selection
>>>>> prompt, the talking installer starts, and the installation process
>>>>> was successful, the CD drive spits out the disk, and hit return to
>>>>> reboot
>>>>
>>>> Yes, Debian, a fine selection - and my favorite distro.
>>>>
>>>>> However, after the reboot, the laptop was unable to detect the OS -
>>>>> apparently the files needed to boot were somehow not installed [I
>>>>> switched to tty2 and looked around before rebooting after installing
>>>>> again, and see the boot folder was missing]
>>>>
>>>> So, I'm guestimating some step was likely missed during install.
>>>> Unlike some other distros - and even installers - with the Debian
>>>> install - at least using the Debian installer - when it comes to at
>>>> least the critical parts that overwrite stuff on drive, it defaults to
>>>> not doing so.
>>>> So, e.g. typically doing things such as writing the partition table
>>>> out, writing the boot information to the drive, etc., will often
>>>> default to no, or not pick the device automatically - but give option
>>>> of devices, on where to write the boot information.  So, if one misses
>>>> one of those steps, one could easily end up with an install that isn't
>>>> bootable.
>>>>
>>>> However, if one's already done most all the install work, and might
>>>> prefer not to repeat that, may also be relatively easy to fix.
>>>> Doing a "rescue" mode boot from ISO, one can often fairly easily
>>>> repair a situation like that - notably adding or even otherwise fixing
>>>> missing or broken boot bits, without need to reinstall.  And, at least
>>>> from what I seem to gather glancing through some relevant Debian
>>>> documentation, looks like Debian, at least now, also well supports
>>>> running "rescue"
>>>> mode from fairly common install ISOs, and well supports, e.g.
>>>> speech, and other accessibility capabilities there too - quite similar
>>>> to when doing install - just slightly different set of actions to
>>>> instead go into rescue mode.
>>>>
>>>>> Any suggestions & help appreciated, thank you very much for looking
>>>>
>>>> Some additional resources one may wish to consider or utilize, Debian
>>>> does also have excellent lists and support.  Might even be able to
>>>> search out an answer there or other useful information.
>>>> Debian also has pretty darn good live interactive support on IRC, that
>>>> can be a quite good resource - I usually find it very good for faster
>>>> and/or interactive response/information, when the issue or matter
>>>> isn't too horribly complex or rare, etc.  Also, the Debian IRC stuff
>>>> is publicly logged, so, e.g. if an answer or useful response comes
>>>> later after one has dropped off, can often review the IRC logs to pick
>>>> up that information later.  Anyway, IRC there might be well suited to,
>>>> e.g. help one go through rescue mode, examine and repair the current
>>>> situation.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, yes, there is also CABAL coming in near future - let us know,
>>>> preferably at least wee bit ahead of time, if you'll be coming
>>>> - and in-person, or virtual, and what issues you may still be facing
>>>> at that time ... or maybe you'll update to let us know all has been
>>>> solved by then ... and it's a cool meeting/event to attend in any case
>>>> ... and yummy food if one makes it in person.
>>>>
>>>> Oh, might also be good to let us know, if you continue to have issues,
>>>> if you're doing UEFI or MBR install, and if you know if the hardware
>>>> supports just one, or both, and if both, which method you've used on
>>>> installation.  And thanks for providing the hardware information -
>>>> that's important, and we may also be able to figure out that and/or
>>>> other relevant information based upon knowing what the hardware is.
>
>