[conspire] 64-bit hardware, UEFI ... maybe the UEFI is 32-bit? Re: Michael Paoli to be @ CABAL ... RE: CABAL ... Debian "blind" install: RE: (forw) issue encountered during installation

[Michael Paoli]

Forward progress was made,
but didn't quite get a successful install completed on David's
hardware.

Shortly after leaving CABAL, a possible explanation occurred to
me, but first, wee bit of background on where we did get to.

So, to try and approximately match, at least virtually, for myself,
what David was doing/attempting, I set up Virtual Machine (VM, in this
case under VirtualBox) on my laptop (work laptop I'd taken with me).
First to make sure I had audio (notably David being legally blind and
using speech synthesis), I set up VM, and booted Debian Live with the
non-free firmware.  Had some minor issues fiddling with the VM configuration,
but once that was sufficiently squared away, I confirmed the audio was
working and I could hear it from VM onto physical machine (GUI didn't come
up for me for some odd reason, but from text console, I just found a
.wav file, use aplay to play it, and was able to confirm audio was
working as needed).  From there I went about reconfiguring VM to do
a Debian install (from the 11.3 amd64 ("64-bit") netinst ISO (11.4 was
released Saturday, but when I'd checked earlier, 11.4 wasn't yet available
as ISO on the mirrors - I presume they were still catching up - that
generally takes some hours to about a day or so).

Anyway, I was able to do a successful install on VM ... but David
wasn't on his physical hardware (I believe it was laptop).  All
seemed fine through the install, but then when reboot time came ...
apparently "nothing" - no audio, and from what David reported on
regarding earlier attempts, apparently the installation would fail
to boot, although it otherwise seemed to have successfully installed.

In our poking at it a bit more, determined he was on UEFI, and on my
VM I wasn't.  And also easy to tell - even blind:
"To enable speech, pressing 's' (again, followed by return on BIOS  
systems but not on UEFI systems)"
https://wiki.debian.org/accessibility#Debian_installer_accessibility
So, David had hardware that was using UEFI.
So I reconfigured my VM for UEFI and reinstalled,
again successfully on the VM with speech synthesis and it coming up
and booting fine and with speech synthesis active upon boot,
and also its installation behavior confirmed that the installer knew
it was being installed on a UEFI system.

Anyway, bit after leaving CABAL, it occurred to me - I recalled hearing
of some systems that, though the hardware is mostly or entirely
64-bit, the UEFI subsystem or essential components thereof, is only
32-bit.  Though one could install 32-bit - e.g. Debian's i386, that
wouldn't be optimal solution - and I recalled hearing more generally
that there's solution or work-around(s) for 64-bit hardware that
has 32-bit UEFI.  Researching a tiny bit on that, looks like these
days on Debian, the solution for that is actually pretty easy:
"Support for mixed-mode systems: 64-bit system with 32-bit UEFI" ...
"The multi-arch installation media" ...
"include the UEFI boot loaders necessary for both i386 and amd64 boot.  
By selecting "64-bit install" from the initial boot menu,  
debian-installer will install a 64-bit (amd64) version of Debian. The  
system will automatically detect that the underlying UEFI firmware is  
32-bit and will install the appropriate version of grub-efi to work  
with it."
https://wiki.debian.org/UEFI#Support_for_mixed-mode_systems:_64-bit_system_with_32-bit_UEFI
So, I'd suggest trying that as a next logical step - that might very well
solve the issue - and isn't too difficult to attempt as a next step.
I'll probably also try it on VM in a bit, to see if it works as
expected ... although on VM, I may have no way to emulate 32-bit UEFI
on otherwise 64-bit hardware.  But I should at least be able to
likewise use that image and do 64-bit OS install - and with it
automagically probing/checking the UEFI and installing the correct
variant, and doing that all through speech synthesis install and
that then also being enabled and functioning upon reboot at the end
of the installation.  Also, I believe network will generally be required
for this type of install, as I believe that multi-arch media is
relatively minimal and will need network to be able to usefully
complete the install ... or maybe there are versions that have more
on them? - I forget - but at some point network will generally be needed
anyway, and also much easier to do the installation and configuration if
network is available at install time - as then the installation will
be configured with the networking in place and operational - thus one
less set of configuration items to do after completion of install.

> From: "Michael Paoli" <Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu>
> Subject: Michael Paoli to be @ CABAL ... RE: CABAL ... Debian  
> "blind" install: RE: [conspire] (forw) issue	encountered during  
> installation
> Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2022 12:12:39 -0700

> ... and planning to get myself to CABAL
> I'll likely bring chips and the makings for dip.
>
> So, yep, in person + Jitsi Meet.
>
> And to join Jitsi Meet, you don't need anything special,
> can do it all within browser ...
> https://meet.jit.si/CABAL
> or can also just dial in from
> phone for audio only.  The URL has all the options, links,
> number(s) and/or can expand with a click or two to see all the relevant
> numbers.
> US Dial-in: +1.512.647.1431 PIN: 3654 3335 40#
> For many "smart" phones you can put in:
> + 1512-647-1431,3654333540#
> And that generally works automagically dialing in.  Clicking the
> "right spot" on the web page or link from there will also typically
> have such phones automagically dial that.
>
>> From: "David Chan" <chandtw at pacbell.net>
>> Subject: RE: CABAL ... Debian "blind" install: RE: [conspire]  
>> (forw) issue	encountered during installation
>> Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 08:21:10 -0700
>
>> The Debian blind install has improved since we last did it, now it  
>> is just the press of a key,and it is also using software speech  
>> instead of the hardware synthesizer
>>
>> I was using the unofficial version that included the firmware, I  
>> will download the official version in a bit and we can try another  
>> install using that this evening
>>
>> Do I need to download anything, or just click the link to join in  
>> the fun?  Talk in a bit, and thanks again
>>
>> --David
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Michael Paoli <Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu>
>> Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2022 8:09 AM
>> To: chandtw at pacbell.net
>> Cc: conspire at linuxmafia.com
>> Subject: CABAL ... Debian "blind" install: RE: [conspire] (forw)  
>> issue encountered during installation
>>
>> I'm intending to at least make it virtually  
>> http://meet.jit.si/CABAL to CABAL today ... maybe even in person,  
>> as it sounds mightily deliciously tempting:
>> http://linuxmafia.com/pipermail/conspire/2022-July/012114.html
>>
>> In either case, intending to at least also be there virtually, and  
>> also see if I can work out doing a proper blind Debian install.   
>> Don't think I'll give myself the extra challenge of doing it  
>> without watching - as I'm probably not nearly so adept in  
>> navigating it by audio - but hoping I can come up with the full  
>> sequence/procedure that should work without having to actually  
>> look/watch, and hopefully I'll pay quite enough attention listening  
>> also, so if there's any procedural or menu glitch or bug in doing a  
>> blind install, that I'd also catch and note it.
>>
>> Intending to do it on a Virtual Machine (VM) ... so there may be  
>> hardware differences, but other than that, expecting it ought be  
>> about the same.  Most of the time I don't even bother or think  
>> about audio on a VM - so I'll have to be sure I get that functional  
>> too.  Even rather surprises me when I happen to discover I have  
>> that, as usually I'm not using audio on a VM ... and sometimes  
>> catches my by surprise when I find it's there and fully functional  
>> ... e.g.
>> like when I fire up a GUI browser under X and play some video that  
>> also has audio, or likewise fire up browser and do Jitsi Meet on  
>> that within VM and the audio and video are all perfectly operational.
>> I think I did that about a year or two ago on testing out a system  
>> I did a Debian install on - plus Debian VM within.
>>
>> Anyway, should be bit of exercise/experiment for me, as I don't  
>> think I've actually run through Debian's blind installation  
>> procedures in ... well, many years.  But it ought work smoothly  
>> enough.
>>
>> I'll also download relevant ISOs ahead of time, so I should have  
>> those available for the VM to use, and mostly avoid excessive  
>> network or download needs, etc.
>>
>> I'll update if/when I'll be on my way to go there in person or if  
>> that turns out to be my plan.
>>
>>> From: "David Chan" <chandtw at pacbell.net>
>>> Subject: RE: [conspire] (forw) issue encountered during installation
>>> Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 20:02:38 -0700
>>
>>>
>>> I am not sure if I can show up in person, since I am in the middle of
>>> a conference that runs on Central time zone, but I can join virtually
>>> though [at least for this month, maybe I can come in person next
>>> month?]
>>>
>>> I was able to get speech during the Debian installation, but when it
>>> comes time to reboot it appears some components are missing from the
>>> installation, and it keeps looking for the boot device, and I wasn't
>>> sure if it is because of the SSD or if it is something else; the
>>> ubuntu installed successfully, I just wasn't able to activate the
>>> speech after the install, and I believe there is no option installing
>>> using speech
>>>
>>> --David
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Michael Paoli <Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu>
>>> Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2022 6:17 AM
>>> To: David Chan <chandtw at pacbell.net>
>>> Cc: conspire at linuxmafia.com
>>> Subject: Re: [conspire] (forw) issue encountered during installation
>>>
>>> Let's see ... has been a while - alas, well over a decade - since I
>>> last assisted a user with a Linux installation for blind user.  I
>>> ought practice more - at least once in a while, make sure it works, or
>>> at least mostly does so, and get myself at least a bit more familiar
>>> with the procedure.
>>>
>>> Peeking at some Debian documents, e.g.:
>>> https://wiki.debian.org/accessibility#Debian_installer_accessibility
>>> It seems it should mostly "just work" - though there are at least some
>>> specific steps to be followed along the way - e.g. notably activating
>>> speech during install.  Anyway, I'm also much more familiar with
>>> Debian than Ubuntu ... though I'd guestimate Ubuntu would be
>>> relatively similar ... ish?  But don't think I've ever attempted that
>>> with Ubuntu, and I'd guestimate likely that support
>>> is better on Debian.  Perhaps you'll make the next CABAL meeting.
>>> If so, perhaps let us know in advance.
>>> I might make it to the next CABAL meeting.  And also of relevance, the
>>> conspire list, if you've not joined:
>>> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/conspire
>>>
>>> Anyway, also, my guestimates where things might've gone sideways or
>>> failed with the earlier installation, etc. attempts - I comment
>>> in-line further below:
>>>
>>>> From: "Rick Moen" <rick at linuxmafia.com>
>>>> Subject: [conspire] (forw) issue encountered during installation
>>>> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2022 23:44:08 -0700
>>>
>>>> Sending so more folks look at this.  I've just clarified to David
>>>> that the next CABAL event will be July _9th_.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Forwarded message from David Chan <chandtw at pacbell.net> -----
>>>>
>>>> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2022 21:42:43 -0700
>>>> From: David Chan <chandtw at pacbell.net>
>>>> To: installers at linuxmafia.com
>>>> Subject: issue encountered during installation
>>>> Reply-To: chandtw at pacbell.net
>>>>
>>>> I am not sure if I can make it in person next Saturday, is there
>>>> still virtual meeting option available?
>>>
>>> I believe virtual will also be available again - in more recent many
>>> months, generally in-person - with proof of vaccination - has been
>>> available, and also virtual - which started during the pandemic.
>>> Watch the conspire list for confirmation and URL - but I'm also
>>> guesmating the URL for virtual will likely be the same.  And the
>>> archives are open to the public, so anyone can read postings, even if
>>> they're not a member of the list.
>>>
>>>> Blind user that uses a screen review package called 'speakup' which
>>>> is usually in a kernel module but is sometimes done as a kernel patch
>>>>
>>>> Attempted installation on a Toshiba Satellite CT55 with a Samsung
>>>> 500G SSD
>>>>
>>>> With ubuntu server 22.04LTS, OS install was successful, and I can see
>>>> the module was loaded:
>>>
>>> As for Ubuntu, Ubuntu-Server would be a good choice for blind, as it
>>> forgoes the ewey GUI stuff, and, at least last I checked, the
>>> installer for Ubuntu-Server is essentially the Debian installer plus
>>> some modest Ubuntu customizations - probably most notably for many is
>>> different color scheme - but there are some other modest differences
>>> too.
>>>
>>>> # modprobe speakup_soft
>>>>
>>>> The 'espeakup' package is then installed to make the computer talk:
>>>>
>>>> # Apt-get install espeakup
>>>>
>>>> However, there was no speech after the install of the package
>>>> finished, and I am unable to figure why it is not talking - maybe the
>>>> firmware driver is incorrect?
>>>
>>> Not sure, but one thing I might guess as a possibility, and I've
>>> sometimes run across this with Debian installs, and have seen what
>>> looks to be same or similar from at least some fair number of user
>>> installs of, notably Debian, but Ubuntu may be quite similar in this
>>> particular regard.
>>>
>>> Anyway, often on a fresh install, I find folks complain of no audio.
>>> And terse summary of my response is generally along the lines of:
>>> "Volume?"
>>> Most notably, as often I find/observe/hear that at least by default,
>>> though the audio typically installs fine, it often initially defaults
>>> on a fresh new install to having the volume levels start out set to
>>> zero.  So sometimes it's a mere matter of turning up the volume in
>>> relevant configuration and/or controls.  At least that's the most
>>> common issue I see with "no sound" on a fresh Debian installation -
>>> and may well be likewise for Ubuntu.
>>>
>>>> Switched to Debian 11.3, choose 's' for speech at the selection
>>>> prompt, the talking installer starts, and the installation process
>>>> was successful, the CD drive spits out the disk, and hit return to
>>>> reboot
>>>
>>> Yes, Debian, a fine selection - and my favorite distro.
>>>
>>>> However, after the reboot, the laptop was unable to detect the OS -
>>>> apparently the files needed to boot were somehow not installed [I
>>>> switched to tty2 and looked around before rebooting after installing
>>>> again, and see the boot folder was missing]
>>>
>>> So, I'm guestimating some step was likely missed during install.
>>> Unlike some other distros - and even installers - with the Debian
>>> install - at least using the Debian installer - when it comes to at
>>> least the critical parts that overwrite stuff on drive, it defaults to
>>> not doing so.
>>> So, e.g. typically doing things such as writing the partition table
>>> out, writing the boot information to the drive, etc., will often
>>> default to no, or not pick the device automatically - but give option
>>> of devices, on where to write the boot information.  So, if one misses
>>> one of those steps, one could easily end up with an install that isn't
>>> bootable.
>>>
>>> However, if one's already done most all the install work, and might
>>> prefer not to repeat that, may also be relatively easy to fix.
>>> Doing a "rescue" mode boot from ISO, one can often fairly easily
>>> repair a situation like that - notably adding or even otherwise fixing
>>> missing or broken boot bits, without need to reinstall.  And, at least
>>> from what I seem to gather glancing through some relevant Debian
>>> documentation, looks like Debian, at least now, also well supports
>>> running "rescue"
>>> mode from fairly common install ISOs, and well supports, e.g.
>>> speech, and other accessibility capabilities there too - quite similar
>>> to when doing install - just slightly different set of actions to
>>> instead go into rescue mode.
>>>
>>>> Any suggestions & help appreciated, thank you very much for looking
>>>
>>> Some additional resources one may wish to consider or utilize, Debian
>>> does also have excellent lists and support.  Might even be able to
>>> search out an answer there or other useful information.
>>> Debian also has pretty darn good live interactive support on IRC, that
>>> can be a quite good resource - I usually find it very good for faster
>>> and/or interactive response/information, when the issue or matter
>>> isn't too horribly complex or rare, etc.  Also, the Debian IRC stuff
>>> is publicly logged, so, e.g. if an answer or useful response comes
>>> later after one has dropped off, can often review the IRC logs to pick
>>> up that information later.  Anyway, IRC there might be well suited to,
>>> e.g. help one go through rescue mode, examine and repair the current
>>> situation.
>>>
>>> Anyway, yes, there is also CABAL coming in near future - let us know,
>>> preferably at least wee bit ahead of time, if you'll be coming
>>> - and in-person, or virtual, and what issues you may still be facing
>>> at that time ... or maybe you'll update to let us know all has been
>>> solved by then ... and it's a cool meeting/event to attend in any case
>>> ... and yummy food if one makes it in person.
>>>
>>> Oh, might also be good to let us know, if you continue to have issues,
>>> if you're doing UEFI or MBR install, and if you know if the hardware
>>> supports just one, or both, and if both, which method you've used on
>>> installation.  And thanks for providing the hardware information -
>>> that's important, and we may also be able to figure out that and/or
>>> other relevant information based upon knowing what the hardware is.