[conspire] Finding used computer gear for modern Linux server use

Tue Feb 12 16:17:07 PST 2019

A CABAL attendee visited and brought a machine he hoped might be
suitable for learning about modern Linux server technologies such as
VMs, containers, and much more.  Michael Paoli and I respect this 
initiative highly and have been trying to advise the attendee, and
one concern is that the machine might be too old and limited,
primarily as to limited quantity and speed of RAM.

So, the obvious question is, if one wants to scrounge some newer gear,
how do you do it and what's the sticker price?  I'm paging through
offerings in the 'computers' category for the East Bay portion of
https://sfbay.craigslist.org/ , as I write this.

I'm hoping this can serve as an exercise in how to research hardware.

One wants to ignore:  Laptops, Macs, miniature PCs, all-in-one PCs,  You
want a workstation (if that's all you can find, those being the norm on
Craigslist) or (better) server box that's from the latter half of this
decade.  (Above isn't intended to suggest that Macsptops, or even
miniature or all-in-one PCs cannot be used in server roles running
Linux, but have various disadvantages and limitations that I'd rather
not flog to death here.)

1.  Lenovo IdeaCentre w/Windows 10, Intel Core 2 Duo, 4 GB RAM, full
system including LCD, mouse, keyboard.  System unit is 'small tower'
form factor.  $100.  Lamorinda area.
https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/sys/d/lenovo-win10-desktop-fully-refurbished/6796545249.html

This is a little eccentric for server use, but let's look deeper.  
Part of the problem is that the seller is vague, e.g., no model number,
but that's what you get with Craigslist.  Craigslist lets you e-mail 
sellers to ask questions if you wish.

The key skill of the early 21st century remains Web-searching, so, to 
try to get better information about this _class_ of PC, I Web-searched

    IdeaCentre "windows 10"

Note the quotation-mark grouping.

It becomes obvious that Lenovo's IdeaCentre product line is or was
primarily built using all-in-one form factors, with everything built
into the LCD monitor, but _some_ models had tower cases instead as with
this guy's unit.  (And some checking verifies that the spelling really 
is 'Centre' in this case.)

They also apparently offered (or offer) both laptops and stick computers
under the IdeaCentre product line name, making this a bit of a
needle-in-haystack search.  Ugh.

Quite a few minutes later, still no joy, so circle back and try to
refine one's search tactics:

  IdeaCentre "windows 10" tower

At this point, I compared the pictures of search hits with the one
supplied on Craigslist, and belatedly realised something:  In that
photograph supplied by the seller on Craigslist of what he claimed was a
'small tower' system, that's just NOT a tower case.  That's a desktop
case.  What a twinkie.  (A tower csae, by definition, is designed to
stand in vertical orientation.  In a photo, you can tell by the
orientation of the writing, if by nothing else.)

Let's try again, this time adding some exclusion terms with the '-'
operator.

  IdeaCentre "windows 10" -laptop -all-in-one

This is kind of in the ballpark, but doubtless more tricked-out and
newer (totally new, in fact) than the one on Craigslist.
https://www.amazon.com/Lenovo-ThinkCentre-M710e-Business-Additional/dp/B074JG79G8
This at least gives us a semi-comparable model designation, ThinkCentre
M710e, the point being that now maybe we can see what this general class
of IdeaCentre desktop w/Windows 10 has in the way of hardware prospects.
It's an _assumption_ that the Craigslist unit will be broadly similar,
but I think a reasonable one.

There are budget-based limitations here:  First, you have only two
memory slots.  At least for the model M710e, those must be DDR4 (a bit
pricey but super-fast) rather than bog-standard DDR3.  The unit maxes
out at 32GB of DDR4 2400MHz RAM, which would be absolutely terrific.
The other is that you space inside the case for only one 3.5" HD or SSD,
which means the only way you'll have mirrored storage is by putting an
M.2-type SSD in one of the two PCIe slots.

A quick check on pricing of a pair of 16GB sticks of DDR4-2400 suggests
around $116 + tax + shipping for the pair.

So, _if_ the Craigslist guy's unit is similar, this puppy could be a
pretty darned fast makeshift server with 32 GB of super-fast RAM for
around $230 after RAM upgrades (and maybe you could sell the pair of 2GB
sticks to someone to gain a little money back.  Worth maybe at least
sending him mail saying 'Dude, what model of IdeaCentre is it?   I may
want to come out on BART and buy it from you.'

One second thought.  The model M710e comes with an i5 or i3 CPU.
Although CPU speed doesn't usually matter a lot for Linux, this makes
clear that the M710e is a later generation than is the Craigslist unit,
because that one has an Intel Core 2 Duo CPU.  Let's try to find a
closer comparable:

  IdeaCentre "windows 10" -laptop -all-in-one "core 2 duo"

Hey, this is a lot closer.  Maybe?
https://www.amazon.com/lenovo-ideacentre-k330b-performance-desktop-pc-intel-core-i32120-dualcore-330ghz-8gb-ddr3-500gb-hdd-dvdrw-keyboardmouse-office-starter-2010-windows-7-home-premium-64bit/dp/B00BRYFVIO/

Comparable model:  IdeaCentre M58.  Uses DDR3 SDRAM (significantly
cheaper but a bit slower than DDR4), specifically PC3-8500 RAM.  And
then the bad news:  'Uses 512MB, 1GB or 2GB memory modules'.  Which
given existence of only two memory slots would imply maxing out at 4GB,
and that would be frustrating for modern server deployment.  Except,
wait:  That meant only that 2GB modules were the densest ones Lenovo
was able to certify when the unit was shipping new, but doesn't mean
it can't support newer, denser RAM.  A Lenovo forum discussion (found by
Web-searching 'IdeaCentre M58 memory') suggests it might truly max out at
16GB RAM, though you need to be careful about what RAM.

But at this point, I need to cut off this madness, becasuse the
Craigslist guy left way too much ambiguity by not bothering to supply a
model number.  Again, one could write and ask him, and _then_ research
the hardware.

2.  Custom-built computer, 8GB DDR4, 500GB HD, Intel 'Kaby Lake' 2.9 GHz
CPU, $250, Walnut Creek.   Motherboard is a Gigabyte GA-H110M-A.
https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/sys/d/walnut-creek-new-custom-built-computer/6817713483.html

I would be totally OK with this as a cheap server.  The mainboard has
only two RAM slots {sigh}, supporting up to 32GB of DDR4  2400/2133 MHz
DIMMsbe totally OK with this as a cheap server.  The mainboard has only
two RAM slots {sigh}, supporting up to 32GB of DDR4  2400/2133 MHz
DIMMs.  It'll do ECC if you splurge for ECC SDRAM, but I  continue to
think that's not worth the money.  The mainboard is Micro ATX form
factor.  Ethernet is RealTek {sigh}, which is regrettable byut
acceptable and difficult to avoid at the budget end of things.  It has
four SATA2 connectors and three PCIe slots.  

The Walnut Creek guy intelligently did _not_ stuff both RAM slots with
low-density RAM, but instead stuffed one 8GB stick in, leaving the other
empty.  So, you could, say, buy a single 16GB DDR4 stick giving you a
very reasonable 20GB total RAM, without needing to yank existing RAM and
put it in a drawer.

No optical drive, but you don't need an internal drive inside a server,
and probably don't really need an optical drive at all.

Looks like a reasonable $250 offering, and a very plausible and modern,
yet cheap Linux server.

3.  Dell 'Optiplex 7020 i7', 16GB RAM, 500 GB HD, Intel i7-4790 CPU, $235,
Emeryville.
https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/sys/d/dell-optiplex-7020-i7-desktop-sff-icpu/6806467519.html

The picture and 'Optiplex' branding screams 'corporate desktop PC'.
That's not a bad thing.  It's a heck of a lot better than a machine
marketed to the 'home' market, which tend to be lameass.  This comes
with Windows 7, not that you'd care for Linux reasons, except that it
brackets the vintage a bit.  The i7 CPU (top of Intel's current line),
ditto.

Online specs
(https://www.dell.com/ng/business/p/optiplex-7060-desktop/pd) say this
puppy can house up to 64GB of 2666MHz DDR4 memory among its four memory
slots.  Safest to assume that the current owner did the dumb thing
during deployment and used low-density RAM, i.e. 4 x 4GB DDR4 sticks,
with the result that upgrading RAM lands some of those in your desk
drawer.  There's room for up to a 3.5" hard drive -- one of them -- and
optionally an M.2 SSD thing.  You're not going to be mirroring, then,
unless you do something gonzo like extending a SATA cable out of the
case.

Aside from the mirroring problem, this would also make a very decent
improptu Linux server, on grounds of capacity for fast RAM.  The i7 
is less important but nice to have.  $235?  Sure, I guess.

4.  Custom tower unit, ASRock motherboard (model not specified), 16GB
DDR3 RAM, Samsung 860 EVO 250GB SSD, Intel ethernet, AMD 955 Black Box
CPU, nice aftermarket case and CPU, optical drive.  $275, Walnut Creek.
https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/sys/d/walnut-creek-complete-3900mhz-amd/6807614433.html

Walnut Creek again.  Same guy?  Anyway, this seller is a serious
gearhead.  But if I were forced to live in Walnut Creek, I might drown
my sorrows by building computer systems on weekends from best-of-breed
parts, too.

This is pretty nice stuff.  It's the sort of built-with-pride system one
might have found in the prior generation of gear, before DDR4 RAM and
the Ryzen series of CPUs from AMD & the i3/i5/i7 CPUs from Intel.  Case
looks well-chosen and has space for more storage and expansion cards, 
and I'll bet it works well and is whisper-quiet.  $275?  Maybe yes.
Worth at least a visit to test-run it from a live distro, if interested.

5.  Dell XPS (specific model not identified), 8GB RAM, i7 CPU, 64-bit
MS-Windows 10 Home on... some mass storage not identified.  $400,
Hayward/Castro Valley.  
https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/sys/d/hayward-dell-xps-desktop/6817682567.html

'XPS' was Dell's product line aimed at the performance-freak home users,
supposedly standing for eXtreme Performance System.  After Dell bought
Alienware in 2002, 'XPS' models became sort-of off-branded Alienware
stuff with a vaguely gamer-like emphsis.

Not really my cuppa, and since the seller couldn't even bother saying
the model number, I'm not going to spend more time on this.  Could be
worth an e-mail asking, as a polite way of saying 'Why do you think this
is worth $400?'

6.  'Dual Xeon 2683 v3 64 GB ram video editing workstation - $2250
(emeryville)'.  Not even going to look further.  If you're doing video
editing or molecular modeling, might be worth the dosh.
https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/sys/d/emeryville-dual-xeon-2683-v3-64-gb-ram/6817671358.html

7.  'Selling home built computer set with double Monitor + Gaming Key
Board - $1200 (oakland lake merritt / grand)'
https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/sys/d/oakland-selling-home-built-computer-set/6811874554.html

Gamers gotta game.  Lots of high-performance parts, priced accordingly,
so I'm moving on.

8.  HP ProLiant DL140, 1U server, 4GB DDR ECC RAM, 2 x Intel Xeon 2.4GHz
CPUs.  Unstated storage hardware if any.  Condition: fair.  $50,
Albany/El Cerrito.  
https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/sys/d/albany-hp-proliant-dl140/6813788962.html

Whoa, an actual server for a change.  And dirt-cheap.  Looks like you
have to provide the storage, though I see what might be an optical drive
in the photos.

One gotcha about HP's server models:  The model suffix matters.  A
ProLiant DL140 G3 (generation 3) is significantly more-modern hardware
than is a ProLiant DL140 G2 (generation 2), which is more modern than a
no-suffix ProLiant DL140.  Of course, this being Craigslist, one cannot
be totally certain this is a no-suffix DL140 just because no suffix was
stated.  Let's assume Generation 1.

The original ProLiant DL140 maxed out at 4 GB in the form of four 1GB 
sticks of PC2100 _DDR_ (not DDR2, DDR3, DDR4) SDRAM.  There are two
internal bays for ATA ('IDE') pre-SATA hard drives in addition to the 
optical drive.  I guarantee this puppy would be _loud_ in operation, as
that's pretty much impossible to avoid in a 1U pizza box server.

Your $50 would buy you a rather limited and antique but serviceable (if
_loud_) server.  Or you can eat for a week at In and Out.

9.  Dell Inspiron 530S, $125, Alameda.
https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/sys/d/alameda-like-new-dell-inspiron-530s/6804855646.html

I'm sure he's very proud of his pristine Windows Vista home computer.
Spending money on a 32-bit system for 2019 Linux server use is a no-go,
however.

10.  Dell Vostro 230, 4MB DDR3 SDRAM (PC3-10600), which is said to be the
maximum RAM.  Supports SATA drives, 320 GB HD provided.  Intel Core 2
Duo E7500 @ 2.93 GHz CPU.    $60 (hayward / castro valley)
https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/sys/d/hayward-dell-vostro-230/6815790700.html

I'll confess I'd never heard of the Vostro product line before.
Apparently, this product line was targeted ast the small business
market, and terminated in 2013.  The Vostro 230 Mini Tower model was a
first-generation Vostro, available starting around mid-2007.

If someone wanted a decade-old 64-bit workstation maxed out at 4GB for
$60, I wouldn't argue, but this is obviously not a machine for a modern
Linux server.

11.  'custom build fast Computer - $600 (alameda)'
https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/sys/d/alameda-custom-build-fast-computer/6815661833.html

It's another gamer rig.  Not spending more time on it.

12.  'Brand New Dell Precision 7820 Tower Desktop Computer MSRP $1900 -
$1400 (albany / el cerrito)  No low ball offers, please.'
https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/sys/d/el-cerrito-brand-new-dell-precision/6810976098.html

Heh-heh, good luck buddy.  I'm not looking closely, but just wanted 
to look up 'Dell Precision'.  Wikipedia says:  'Dell Precision
Workstations are computers intended as workstations for CAD /
Architecture / CG professionals, or as small-scale business servers.'
That goes some way towards accounting for the asking price.   Seller's
story is that he/she bought this for the offspring, but the dear
offspring wants a laptop instead, so this gold-plated workstation is
surplus to requirements.

Not really server material.

13.  'Gaming pc - $1200 (concord / pleasant hill / martinez)'
https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/sys/d/concord-gaming-pc/6815139814.html

{snore]

14.  Dell Optiplex 9020:  16 GB something-something RAM, 2TB hard drive,
DVDRW burner drive, Intel Core i7-4770 3.4 GHz CPU.  Windows 10 Pro
64-bit, Office 2013 Pro.  $240 (hayward / castro valley).
://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/sys/d/san-lorenzo-dell-optiplex-9020-i7-34ghz/6804325715.html

This is the second Optiplex, and again I'll mention that they tend to be
very respectable corporate workstations.  The model Optiplex 9020 came
in three submodel variants, distinguished by case size.

Optiplex 9020 MT = minitower
Optiplex 9020 SFF = small form factor
Optiplex 9020 USFF = ultra-small form factor

Owner doesn't clarify which this is, but the photo _suggests_ SFF.  The 
USFF variant has only two DIMM (memory) sockets, the others have four.
Takes dual-channel DDR3 1600MHz SDRAM, maxing out at 32GB (16GB for
USFF).  The SFF variant has room inside for one 3.5" drive (HD or SSD),
and one slimline external-front-accessible drive bay, which would
normally be an optical drive but could be a small mass-storage one.  The
MT=minitower variant of course has more room for more stuff.

Owner doesn't state whether the 16GB is 4 x 4GB or 2 x 8GB.  Assume he
was dumb and did the former.  In that case, maxing out RAM would cost
the price of 4 x 8GB DDR3 1600MHz sticks would be about $160 + tax +
shipping -- though honestly 16GB RAM can do a lot, so I'd try living
with that, before throwing money at it.

Without doubling the RAM, this seems a surprisingly compelling and
modern cheap-ass Linux server for $240.  The lack of reasonable options
for mirrored storage is regrettable, but you can't have everything.

15.  'Gaming Computer GTX 1060 16GB Ram& HP Monitor - $829 (danville /
san ramon)'
https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/sys/d/san-ramon-gaming-computer-gtxgb-ram-hp/6817383694.html

{snore some more}

Well, above is the first page of relevant Craigslist hits in the East
Bay.  There are about nine more pages.