[conspire] could Linux desktop go reasonably any faster?

Tue Jan 31 12:58:38 PST 2017

winmaker

On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 12:11:09PM +0100, Ivan Sergio Borgonovo wrote:
> On 01/31/2017 08:55 AM, Rick Moen wrote:
> >Quoting Ivan Sergio Borgonovo (mail at webthatworks.it):
> 
> >>If you're not on mobile (and probably even if you are, unless the
> >>software is really really badly written) I doubt you'll perceive the
> >>difference even on not so modern hardware.
> >
> >You mean Xfce4 and GNOME3?   FWIW, what I saw a few times was hardware
> >bogging down badly on typical GNOME3 builds (with and without Unity),
> >that then did not also bog down similarly with Xfce4.  That was my
> >experience, which I merely offer for whatever it's worth.
> >
> >Not that I _personally_ care a lot (for upthread reasons), but I keep a
> 
> I got enrolled in the KDE church, I think I saw GNOME on my hardware
> a couple of time. So I can't say for GNOME, but when KDE is slow
> it's generally because it is buggy and most of the times it has to
> do with bad graphic drivers support.
> After all PC were able to move Windows around back in the '80. I
> can't think of any common desktop activity other than the previously
> mentioned that really require powerful hardware.
> A software whose main task is move around windows can't be
> substantially slower than a similar one on modern hardware unless it
> is buggy.
> 
> >It was an XT clone.
> 
> My first x86 PC was a 286. It was so expensive for a boy I thought
> I've to make money out of it. I knew XT were going to be history
> soon so I convinced my parents to increase the budget remarkably.
> In fact that was the most expensive gift my parents gave me. After
> that I started to buy my toys.
> 
> >'Integration' had the same drawbacks of entangled code interfaces and
> 
> Again, it is a matter of compromise, well written software and experience.
> Many time a pipe is not enough to make 2 parts of a software
> communicate. There are many directions you can take. One of which is
> making the 2 parts one.
> If you did a good job you could still swap one of the parts out, put
> another one in and recompile.
> But doing a good job is a matter of experience.
> 
> It is surprising how many DE there are around compared to eg. the
> smtp servers or the compilers, drawing/photo editing programs etc...
> 
> I think this could be a clue to understand why it is such a mess.
> 
> >Recently, there's been some hilarious security attacks against one of
> >the colossal DEs via the metadata datastore and the search software.
> >Oh, yeah, that's right, GNOME again:
> >https://scarybeastsecurity.blogspot.dk/2016/11/0day-poc-risky-design-decisions-in.html
> >https://scarybeastsecurity.blogspot.dk/2016/12/redux-compromising-linux-using-snes.html
> >https://scarybeastsecurity.blogspot.com/2016/11/0day-exploit-compromising-linux-desktop.html
> 
> Fun. I still have to decide if indexing so diverse thing in the same
> place is a good idea, probably not since I haven't been moved to
> switch DE or simply try to make a similar tool work... but again I
> don't think this is a good argument against integration.
> 
> What should have been done? I don't know. Of course the path is
> spangled by many design errors. But that doesn't mean I'm against
> automation or reliable path to do something.
> And yeah... if they are reliable, people will reliably try to
> exploit them... but then...
> 
> >>Once upon a time the PMI suite in KDE was a nice set of applications
> >>and if Linux had to aspire to world domination it looked something
> >>that could really take the place of Outlook/Exchange and it was made
> >>in a way you didn't have to pick the whole package even if picking
> >>up the whole package gave advantages.
> 
> >Yeah, never entirely bought that notion.
> 
> Fortunately I don't send emails from my agenda. But many people do
> and I think it is a reasonable use case.
> I take appointment from my email and I wish there was a reliable
> standard way to move appointment received from email to my agenda.
> 
> This is something I heard Outlook/Exchange do well.
> 
> Still this seems to be confined inside organization. Whatever the
> Exchange/Outlook format is I don't receive many request of
> appointment this way. I may infer it is not used outside companies
> but I don't receive in general many appointment requests.
> 
> Add to this a shared address book, sieve filters...
> 
> I see space for integration. And KDE PIM looked nice.
> 
> Yeah most of these things can be based on standards and nothing
> forbid you to use different pieces of software to deal with
> different tasks, provided they know each other. Still having a nice
> GUI that put order in all these data doesn't look bad.
> GUI are nice not because you can point and click, but because you
> can organize space better and doing so increase and organize
> bandwidth to the brain.
> 
> >>I don't think that's a fault of "integration" rather of too much grandeur.
> 
> >I think we're just describing different parts of the same elephant.
> >Maybe the delusions of grandeur are an emergent effect of the same
> >design that aims at integration.  Not sure.  I just note the
> >characteristic outcomes.
> 
> I just think it is the problem space and the community around it.
> 
> ERP, accounting programs have high level of integration between
> their modules and yeah proprietary software tend to exploit this
> integration to lock you in... but that's another story.
> 
> >>But you can't relate KDE failures to the failure of following the
> >>*nix philosophy.
> 
> >People often mean different things when they use the latter catch
> >phrase, leading to long wastes of time while they talk past each other.
> >That is one reason why I avoid that term in this context.
> 
> Yeah sure. Still good design is not made of dogmas. You've to juggle
> between efficiency, flexibility and simplicity.
> The problem with DE seems to be people are still making design
> decisions based on what they like rather then on what works.
> 
> >[VM usage is a killer feature, though.]
> 
> >>Not in my use case.
> >
> >You would know.
> 
> ah yeah. It is a very good use case indeed. I was talking about
> memory usage for average desktop users that in my imagination is not
> someone concerned with security and not a sysadmin.
> 
> In my use case anyway I'm happy with containers.
> 
> >Start thinking creatively about VMs, and you might be startled to find
> >that there are indeed uses in your use case.
> 
> >Or maybe not.  You would know.
> 
> Yeah I agree. But not my line of business, at least not anymore.
> 
> >>I rarely see people using their phone on a desk.
> 
> >But many people seldom use their desks, as they are often away from it
> >and using their smartphones or tablets instead.
> 
> Yeah to post no more than a 30 words text to comment on a facebook post.
> Sorry I need a desk for my keyboard.
> 
> >Workstations and laptops aren't dying; but they're no longer the centre
> >of the world, either.
> 
> Then, why would you like to take manufacturing back to US if all
> people want to do is "typing" on a mobile phone?
> 
> >>Waiting Ryzen. I hope at least for some more competition.
> 
> >You know, you're the second extremely well informed person to say
> >something like that.  (/me also waves to Dana.)
> 
> Not really. I just know they exist. It has been claimed they have
> interesting performances but on a very limited tests and people are
> expecting they would cost less then equivalent Intel.
> Naples (server version with 32C/64T) could be more interesting.
> 
> With the exception of the bus and power management I haven't read
> anything about Ryzen that is somehow really innovative compared to
> the things AMD did in the past.
> So my guess is that whatever AMD has done, Intel won't take long to
> catch up and the battle will move again on the manufacturing process
> where AMD can't compete.
> 
> In the manufacturing process it seems there is not too much space
> left to improve unless we will see a revolution... but I don't know
> if AMD has enough resource to survive enough time to be able to come
> up with something revolutionary in the logic to make enough money to
> spur some competition in a more s
> 
> Still hoping. I'll have to buy a new desktop shortly.
> 
> -- 
> Ivan Sergio Borgonovo
> http://www.webthatworks.it http://www.borgonovo.net
> 
> 
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