[conspire] Anyone have SuSE 8.2 Pro and want to make me a copy?
Rick Moen
rick at linuxmafia.com
Sat Jun 7 11:02:29 PDT 2003
Quoting Mark S Bilk (mark at cosmicpenguin.com):
> SuSE is totally OK with this; I phoned their U.S. office at
> (510)-628-3380 and the guy there said he's asked the higher-ups
> several times and they say it's perfectly OK to copy any or
> all of the disks in the 8.2 Pro box or below (but not in the
> commercial server sets) and give them away, as long as it's
> not for money. (However, there is no restriction regarding
> lunch. 8^)
Mark, I _believe you_ that the Oakland office said this. The problem is
that they don't have those rights, because of the many restricted
third-party codebases in SuSE Pro that are licensed on a per-seat basis
and which SuSE Linux AG sells only as agent for the copyright holders
concerned.
In other words, getting SuSE Linux AG's permission _doesn't suffice_,
because they cannot speak for those copyright holders. (They shouldn't
be telling people it's OK; they could get those people really upset at
them and at their customers.)
The matter keeps coming up because SuSE Linux AG's staff keep giving
people bad advice on the matter, contradicting both obvious concerns of
property law (How can they give permission to duplicate freely, for
codebases concerning which they don't have that right, themselves?) and
their own legal notices on their ftp site.
Here's the conversation that came up, about that, on the Irish Linux
User Group mailing list:
-----<snip>----
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Wed May 7 17:51:22 2003
Subject: [ILUG] SuSe
Quoting adam beecher (lists at spamfilter.cc):
> 1. Does burning SuSe violate their licence?
> 2. If the answer to 1. is 'no', will someone burn 8.2 for me please?
At any given time, there are several _editions_ of SuSE. They have
differing contents; some may be lawfully redistributed in a non-profit
fashion. However, I strongly suspect you have in mind one of the
boxed-set retail editions, which contain quite a lot of third-party
proprietary software that are per-user licensed and may not be lawfully
duplicated and handed around.
http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/suse-product-strategy
From: niall at linux.ie (Niall O Broin)
Date: Wed May 7 17:51:30 2003
Subject: [ILUG] SuSe
Message-ID: <200305071751.06960.niall at linux.ie>
On Wednesday 07 May 2003 17:28, Stephane Dudzinski wrote:
> Yes it does. Last time I checked you actually needed to purchase a set
No, it doesn't, facetious answers aside (and that was no anyway). From
COPYRIGHT.yast on the root of my SuSE 8.2 DVD
Distribution of the YaST 2 programme, its sources, whether amended or
unamended in full or in part thereof, and the works derived thereof for a
charge require the prior written consent of SuSE Linux AG.
.
.
.
It is forbidden to reproduce or distribute data carriers which have
been reproduced without authorisation for payment without the prior
written consent of SuSE Linux AG or SuSE Linux.
The key phrases there are "for a charge" and "for payment". If some kind
person wants to burn Adam a copy of their SuSE 8.2 without payment, that is
NOT forbidden by the license.
> then you were free to install it on one or several machines but you
> need to *hold* an official boxset or if you can wait a bit, do the ftp
> install, should be available soon.
And as FTP install was mentioned, again from COPYRIGHT.yast
All programmes derived from YaST 2, and all works derived thereof as
a whole or parts thereof may only be disseminated with the amended
sources and this licence in accordance with 2b). Making YaST 2 or
works derived thereof available free of charge together with SuSE
Linux on FTP Servers and mailboxes is permitted if the licences on the
software are observed.
But no doubt, there will be more uninformed speculation here about SuSE's
license, uncluttered by the light of reality.
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Wed May 7 18:09:43 2003
Subject: [ILUG] SuSe
Quoting Niall O Broin (niall at linux.ie):
> No, it doesn't, facetious answers aside (and that was no anyway). From
> COPYRIGHT.yast on the root of my SuSE 8.2 DVD
>
> Distribution of the YaST 2 programme, its sources, whether amended or
> unamended in full or in part thereof, and the works derived thereof for a
> charge require the prior written consent of SuSE Linux AG.
If YaST2 were the only proprietary codebase on the Professional Edition
and Personal Edition disks, then this would be a relevant objection.
From: lists at spamfilter.cc (adam beecher)
Date: Thu May 8 13:36:32 2003
Subject: [ILUG] SuSe
Well, I'm still none the wiser, but it seems to be one of those ongoing
arguments that never gets solved. I'll try asking SuSe to see what they say,
but I find it hard to believe that someone hasn't done this before, so I
won't hold my breath.
I'll be disappointed if they say no, though. To be perfectly frank, I've got
better things to do with the 150 hours UTV give me per month, and I'm not
lashing out for a boxed set just to have it sit gathering dust when I revert
to my current desktop OS because it didn't make the grade again.
I see that the cheapy distributors don't distribute Red Hat either, does the
same policy apply here? (I know the ISO's are available online, but where do
they stand on distributing for free/cost?)
Thanks for the feedback anyway.
adam
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Thu May 8 18:17:43 2003
Subject: [ILUG] SuSe
Quoting adam beecher (lists at spamfilter.cc):
> Well, I'm still none the wiser, but it seems to be one of those
> ongoing arguments that never gets solved. I'll try asking SuSe to see
> what they say, but I find it hard to believe that someone hasn't done
> this before, so I won't hold my breath.
My recollection is that prior inquries have produced a number of vague
and mutually contradictory statements of "Well, we have no problem with
a limited amount of sharing" or "Sure, if this is done low-key and by a
LUG" or such, but nobody willing to be quoted on the record as stating
company policy, let alone any publicly accessible statement -- other
than the actual licensing terms of the several thousand packages listed
at (e.g.):
http://www.suse.de/us/private/products/suse_linux/i386/packages_professional/index_all.html
(Professional Edition). At a glance, the following packages (at a
minimum) stand out, as being ones whose copyright holders are known to
not permit redistribution:
Adobe Acroread
Moneyplex
OpenPBS
Opera Web browser
Real Networks RealPlayer8
The Personal Edition includes all of those other than OpenPBS.
Theoretically, of course, any or all of those copyright holders could
have departed from their usual pattern and issued to SuSE Linux AG
copies licensed for public redistribution. One would have to check a
current version SuSE boxed set's CD contents. But I rather doubt it.
Absent that extremely unlikely possibility, I can't see how there _can_
be any doubt on this matter: Those packages simply are _not_ licensed
for public redistribution, period. It's an incontrovertable fact.
Many SuSE versions ago, there actually were a lot _more_ packages of
that sort, e.g. (quoting an old list of mine):
Siemens AG's DB4Web middleware
Poet Software Corp. FastObjects SDK for Java and C++
www.mimer.com's MimerSQL
MGE UPS Systems's Personal Solution Pac (MGE power management software)
Software AG's ADABAS D
H+BEDV Datentechnik GmbH's AntiVir V
Knox Sofware Comm.'s Arkeia
Datan's dataplore digital-signal analysis package
Enterprise Solution Server (ESS) ERP system
Borland Kylix Open Edition
Moneydance
Sun Microsystems Star Office
None of those packages are included any more, and the number of
non-redistributable packages has definitely gone way down.
Since all of those packages (in both lists, above) are owned by third-party
companies, asking for a permissions statement from SuSE Linux AG
employees isn't really very useful: SuSE Linux AG can pass along only
the rights granted by those other firms. (YaST/YaST2 is a different
story, because SuSE Linux AG actually owns it.)
> I see that the cheapy distributors don't distribute Red Hat either,
> does the same policy apply here? (I know the ISO's are available
> online, but where do they stand on distributing for free/cost?)
Red Hat, Inc. have a rather aggressive policy about use of their
trademarked phrases, the "Shadowman" logo, the Bluecurve screen images,
and so on, which have made many CD vendors cautious about whether and in
what fashion they redistribute RHL's CD contents. There are no
impediments from copyright law, on the other hand: The only proprietary
package I spot in RH9, the pine/pico one, has terms that permit public
redistribution.
From: ilug_gmc at fiachra.ucd.ie (Gavin McCullagh)
Date: Fri May 9 10:45:45 2003
Subject: [ILUG] SuSe
On Thu, 08 May 2003, Rick Moen wrote:
> (Professional Edition). At a glance, the following packages (at a
> minimum) stand out, as being ones whose copyright holders are known to
> not permit redistribution:
>
> Adobe Acroread
> Moneyplex
> OpenPBS
> Opera Web browser
> Real Networks RealPlayer8
>
> The Personal Edition includes all of those other than OpenPBS.
The impression could be taken (perhaps by a very cynical person) that
Suse AG do this deliberately as an excuse for the cds not to be
redistributable. It wouldn't take much for them to partition the cds
into non-free and free as Debian do. Then people could redistribute the
free part.
This of course assumes YAST2 and other base components to be
redistributable at least in unmodified binary form for non-commercial
purposes.
Gavin
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Fri May 9 18:08:48 2003
Subject: [ILUG] SuSe
Quoting Gavin McCullagh (ilug_gmc at fiachra.ucd.ie):
[My lists of some non-redistributable codebases in Professional and
Personal Editions, snipped.]
> The impression could be taken (perhaps by a very cynical person) that
> Suse AG do this deliberately as an excuse for the cds not to be
> redistributable. It wouldn't take much for them to partition the cds
> into non-free and free as Debian do. Then people could redistribute
> the free part.
>
> This of course assumes YAST2 and other base components to be
> redistributable at least in unmodified binary form for non-commercial
> purposes.
Your assumption is true to the best of my understanding. (The licence
for YaST / YaST2 / the distribution installer permits any redistribution,
with or without modification, that is not "for value", or words to that
effect.)
Another, perhaps easier starting point would be the Ftp Edition, which
always includes only publicly redistributable packages. The
disadvantages would be that (1) it doesn't start out being organised
into ISOs, and (2) Ftp Edition releases typically come out about four
weeks after Professional and Personal Edition ones. For example, the
current Ftp Edition release is still 8.1.
Actually, if you anticipate needing to install SuSE onto several
machines, you can just grab a mirror copy of the entire Ftp Edition
file tree -- about 3-4 GB -- and use it for local-network installs, with
SuSE Linux AG's blessing. This mode of usage avoids the need to divide
things up into ISOs and adjust the installer / YaST / YaST2 to recognise
that fact.
Personally, my main interest is in helping people understand the
particulars of SuSE's licence status and end the persistent confusion on
the subject.
From: lists at spamfilter.cc (adam beecher)
Date: Thu May 15 20:57:37 2003
Subject: [ILUG] FW: SuSe ISO permissions
SuSE's response to my query about redistributing SuSE is below, and it
looks pretty definitive to me. So any chance of someone burning a copy
for me? If you send me your address, I'll send an SAE with two CD's for
each (binary) CD in the distro; in case of Coaster Syndrome. And thanks
to everyone for their feedback.
adam
-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Holzer [mailto:rholzer at suse.com]
Sent: 15 May 2003 18:44
To: ad at m.beecher.net
Subject: Re: SuSe ISO permissions
Hi Adam.
Thanks for your patience and concern.
It is legal to copy and redistribute SuSE Linux as long as no money is
changing hands.
--
Best regards,
Rick Holzer
SuSE, Inc.
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Fri May 16 11:28:55 2003
Subject: [ILUG] FW: SuSe ISO permissions
Cc: Rick Holzer <rholzer at suse.com>
Quoting adam beecher (lists at spamfilter.cc):
> SuSE's response to my query about redistributing SuSE is below, and it
> looks pretty definitive to me.
It says that _SuSE, Inc._ (presumably speaking also for SuSE Linux AG)
wouldn't object -- although, sadly, he doesn't clarify whether he's
speaking about all SuSE editions or about some editions and not others.
(I'm Cc'ing him; perhaps he will be willing to clarify.)
But....
The _much_ larger problem is that SuSE Linux AG simply _cannot_ grant
permission on behalf of the many third-party copyright holders whose
codebases are included in the Personal Edition, Professional Edition,
and Enterprise Server Edition (specifically, the ones who are known to
license their codebases per-copy without the right to redistribute).
Earlier, I posted a list comprising a _sample_ of those codebases:
Adobe Acroread
Moneyplex
OpenPBS
Opera Web browser
Real Networks RealPlayer8
(There are probably lots of others. Those were the ones that stood out,
at a quick glance.)
Mr. Holzer? Does SuSE Linux AG have on file copyright owners' written
grants of permission (to the public) to redistribute, covering _all_ the
third-party proprietary components in SuSE Linux Professional Edition v.
8.2? Are those accessible on-line anywhere? URL, please?
Absent those third-party permission grants being in writing somewhere,
Mr. Holzer's e-mail would seem functionally equivalent to what's in
ftp://ftp.suse.com/pub/suse/i386/current/COPYRIGHT.yast covering
YaST/YaST2 (that you may do non-commercial copying of the SuSE-owned
pieces) -- but we already knew that.
Mr. Holzer: I'm sure you honestly _do_ think this is a simple matter of
SuSE itself granting permission, and your saying that does both you and
your company credit. However, here's a relevant quotation from one of
your own company files, at
ftp://ftp.suse.com/pub/README.iso-images.english :
With our SuSE Linux FTP version (SuSE Linux Professional, excluding
commercial program packages, which we are not allowed to offer on their
own for download) we provide a free service for all those who wish to
install SuSE Linux via FTP.
The file would seem to be referring to packages such as the five cited
above. Those and others aren't in the FTP edition[1] because the
companies that own them don't permit it -- which means you, Mr. Holzer,
unfortunately can't, either.
If you still think otherwise, I really strongly suggest you consult your
corporate counsel. Seriously.
[1] Actually, I'm intrigued to note that Acroread and OpenPBS _are_ in
the FTP edition, which is interesting because ordinarily their terms
don't permit public redistribution, and they're available only either
directly from their issuers or directly from licensees.
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Fri May 16 18:20:35 2003
Subject: (forw) Re: [ILUG] FW: SuSe ISO permissions
----- Forwarded message from Rick Holzer <rholzer at suse.com> -----
Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 10:13:01 -0700
From: Rick Holzer <rholzer at suse.com>
To: Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com>
Cc: "Mr. Dyroff, Holger" <hd at suse.com>
Subject: Re: [ILUG] FW: SuSe ISO permissions
Hi Rick.
It appears that I may have mis-spoken.
I am forwarding this on to our Head of US Operations who can offer an
official SuSE Policy statment.
--
Best regards,
Rick Holzer
SuSE, Inc.
-----<snip>-----
You'll notice that, even after this conversation, Holzer is _still_
under the delusion that he can settle the matter by seeking an "official
SuSE Policy statement", as if that could overcome concerns about
violating other companies' property rights.
Well, that's the way corporate people tend to think -- that everything
can be settled by consulting company policy -- until their corporate
legal staff hit them with a clue stick and say "No".
Anyhow, apologies for the length of this, but I'm sorry to say that they
mislead you, and the only lawful way to get SuSE Linux Pro 8.2 is to buy
a copy.
--
Cheers, Bad Unabomber!
Rick Moen Blowing people all to hell.
rick at linuxmafia.com Do you take requests?
-- Unabomber Haiku Contest, CyberLaw mailing list
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