windows-refund-day-correspondence

From owner-svlug@svlug.svlug.org Tue Feb 9 16:29:11 1999
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To: svlug@svlug.org
Subject: [svlug] "Runz"
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From: Nathan Myers ncm@cantrip.org
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I wrote the following for for the next Refund Newsletter. They
didn't print it, I imagine because Don wanted to stay focused
or something, so you get to read (two amended versions of) it here
instead.

FWIW. Take your pick. I think the camera analogy is a bit
closer, but that "Runz(tm)" thing gives me the grins whenever
I think about it. Forward your favorite to your favorite
reporter.

Nathan Myers
ncm@cantrip.org

--------------------

Imagine for a moment that any car you can buy from a regular dealer
comes "preloaded" with a special filter that only allows you to use
the MicroCough-brand fuel, "Runz(tm)". The purchase contract says
if you are not willing to use the filter with "Runz(tm)", you should
contact your dealer for instructions on how to return the filter for
a refund. Since this filter must be replaced periodically at a cost
of around $100, you know how much you should get back.

Although MicroCough fueling stations are everywhere, Runz(tm) is
expensive and, worse, Runz(tm) frequently causes your car to stall in
traffic. Now, suppose you have your own supply of fuel which _never_
causes a stall. You ask your dealer for a refund, to no avail. It's
so hard to get them to pay that some people advise you just to take
the filter off and throw it away, despite the promise in the contract.
Since it is really MicroCough who placed the refund promise in the
contract, doesn't it make sense to approach MicroCough directly to
exercise your clearly-specified legal right to a full refund?

--------------------

Imagine for a moment that any camera you can buy from a regular
dealer comes "preloaded" with a special winder that only works with
the MicroPhots-brand film, "Snaps(tm)". The purchase contract says
if you are not willing to use the winder with "Snaps(tm)" film, you
should contact the camera maker for instructions on how to return the
winder for a refund. Since this winder must be replaced periodically
at a cost of around $100, you know how much you should get back.

Although MicroPhots "Snaps(tm)" film is available everywhere, Snaps(tm)
is expensive and, worse, is brittle so it tends to break while it's
winding, spoiling your pictures. Now, suppose you have your own supply
of film and can get a winder for it. You ask the camera company for a
refund, to no avail. It's so hard to get them to pay that some people
advise you just to take the winder off and throw it away, despite the
promise in the contract. Since it is really MicroPhots who placed the
refund promise in the contract, doesn't it make sense to approach
MicroPhots directly to exercise your clearly-specified legal right to
a full refund?

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From owner-cabal-l-outgoing@rockhopper.deirdre.org Tue Feb 9 14:46:03 1999
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----- Forwarded message from Matthew Cunningham matthew@ssc.com -----

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 14:40:38 -0800 (PST)
From: Matthew Cunningham matthew@ssc.com
To: [Some Windows Refund people]
Subject: Re: Linux Journal

Good afternoon,

Wednesday we will be shipping out 200 copies of the February issue to both
Rick Moen (San Francisco, CA) and Deirdre Saorise (Irvine, CA). We will
also be including some Linux bumper stickers and such.

We will be using UPS, and all deliveries will arive Friday -- Please
confirm that someone will be there to sign for the package at the
addresses you sent me.

Also, it is not too late to order some copies of Linux Journal for
distribution at Refund Day activities. Anything planned for
Seattle/Redmond?

Thank you,

Matthew Cunningham
Marketing
Linux Journal

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Matthew Cunningham, matthew@ssc.com P.O. Box 55549 Seattle, WA 98155
Marketing Ph: (206) 782-7733 ext. 112
Linux Journal Fx: (206) 782-7191
An SSC Publication www.linuxjournal.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

----- End forwarded message -----

From owner-cabal-l-outgoing@rockhopper.deirdre.org Tue Feb 9 14:08:08 1999
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From: Nick Moffitt nick@zork.net
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----- Forwarded message from skydec dsvsqx@hotmail.com -----

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:58:58 -0500
From: "skydec" dsvsqx@hotmail.com
Reply-To: dsvsqx@hotmail.com
X-Mailer: PrimaSoft Handy Email
To: nick@zork.net

Hello Nick,

This is my contribution to zork.net/refund 's effort/newsletter and
the upcoming Windows Refund Day on Feb. 15th.

daniel
My 2 bits on the EULA and Gateway:
This is my account regarding the purchase of a new notebook, the
Gateway Fireant, at the local Gateway Country store, here in Orlando,
Florida, February 9th 1999, about 12:30pm. Single user, single system.
Alrighty, from what I gathered from the sales representative at the
store, it is understood that the cost of the operating system, in this
case Win98, is included in the total sale price of a system, in this
case the Fireant notebook.
However, he did make it a point to say that the cost of the
operating system was at OEM price, and not at retail price. The sales
representative did mention that the OEM cost for Win98, at least what
Gateway is paying, is about $50, compared to the cost of a retail
Win98 upgrade at about $90. Well, fair enough...
Now we get to the point of obtaining a system without a Windows
operating system. According to the sales representative at the Cow
store, here, it is Gateway's policy, also an agreement between Gateway
and Microsoft, that the end user is expected to obtain a system, with
Windows, no exceptions. Therefore, when my question on deducting the
cost of Windows98 from the purchase price and the question on the
licensing agreement between the end user and Microsoft and Gateway
were, in so many words, struck down by the fact of this agreement
between Microsoft and Gateway, and Gateway policy. Enough said, so
much for system customization.
An interesting note to those who seek the EULA, if you happen to be
at some showroom or a retail store where computers are running Windows
(no surprises there), the EULA can be found in
"c:\windows\license.txt". Of course, you won't be purchasing the demo
model that is currently running, right? Then again they are usually
discounted... Of course it is always feasible to work it out with a
reseller that is willing to waive the Microsoft Tax right at the
start.

skydec
dsvsqx@hotmail.com
(it wasn't MS. before)

----- End forwarded message -----

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From gbrock@email.sjsu.edu Tue Feb 9 18:15:16 1999
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From: Gene gbrock@email.sjsu.edu
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My friend and I are interested in tagging along. We are both
in the market for Linux desktops, but there is little choice out there.
I don't want to pay for the stupid software when I'm not even going to
use it. (MS)
Can you give us info on where to meet, and time/place, duration, etc.
We are both students and wouldn't want to miss our complier design
class...

Thanks,
Gene Brock
San Jose State U.
BTW...if Office is bundled with the machine, can we get a refund for that
too?

From ddeckmyn@cmcorporate.com Thu Feb 11 10:37:57 1999
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From: Dominique Deckmyn ddeckmyn@cmcorporate.com
Reply-To: "dominique_deckmyn@vnu.co.uk" dominique_deckmyn@vnu.co.uk
To: "'bofh@linuxmafia.com'" bofh@linuxmafia.com
Subject: Refund day
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 10:33:57 -0800
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Hello Rick,

I'd like to do a follow-up story on the Refund Day effort, for VNU Newswire
(www.vnunet.com). Just generally get an idea about how the plans are
progressing, and on what we can expect to see happen next Monday. I'm
particularly interested in the Bay Area activities.

Could you give me a call sometime today, at 650-3060889?

Dominique Deckmyn
VNU Newswire

*** The VNU Newswire is at www.vnunet.com ***
---------------------------------------------------------
Dominique Deckmyn
US Editor, VNU Newswire
business e-mail: dominique_deckmyn@vnu.co.uk
personal e-mail: ddeckmyn@cmcorporate.com

Tel: +1-650-3060889
Fax:+1-650-3630187

Address:
VNU Business Publications Ltd.
611 Veterans Boulevard #206
Redwood City, CA 94063 - USA

UK address:
VNU Business Publications
32-34 Broadwick Street
London W1A 2HG - United Kingdom
---------------------------------------------------------

From db@MsCyberspace.com Thu Feb 11 09:04:15 1999
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Rick, I'm writing a short little item for Newsweek.com about Windows
Refund Day. Who wrote the following, on your site?

The message is not "Windows sucks, I want my money
back." The message is "I choose not to accept this
license, and am therefore exercising my right to
return the product for a refund."

I'd like to attribute that to the person who wrote it and not just your
site, if that's possible. So did you write it, or ???

Also, no directions or time is up yet for the march. Will that info be
up soon? How the organinzing going? Any rough estimate of turnout?

Thanks for a prompt response, if possible. Thanks for your time in any
case.

cheers,

Deborah Branscum
contributing editor, Newsweek
510-652-3818

From owner-svlug@svlug.svlug.org Thu Feb 11 00:50:43 1999
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From: Ian Kluft ikluft@cisco.com
Message-Id: 199902110821.AAA04804@tiber.cisco.com
Subject: [svlug] first weather outlook for WRD
To: svlug@svlug.org (Silicon Valley Linux Users Group)
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The first NWS weather outlook for Northern and Central California for
Monday (Windows Refund Day) is out. So far so good.

Apparently the "storm track" (jet stream) will not be coming this far
south at that time, keeping the bad weather north of the Bay Area. But
it's just a long-range outlook right now so keep watching it.

(I wonder if the NWS forecast modeling software could run on Beowulf. :-)

References:
NWS Northern and Central California 5-day outlook
http://www-atm.ucdavis.edu/~wxauto/fos/fpus/FPUS66.KMTR

NWS San Francisco and San Mateo County (Peninsula) 3-day forecast
http://www-atm.ucdavis.edu/~wxauto/fos/fpus/zones/CAZ006

NWS Santa Clara County (South Bay/Silicon Valley) 3-day forecast
http://www-atm.ucdavis.edu/~wxauto/fos/fpus/zones/CAZ008
--
Ian Kluft KO6YQ PP-ASEL Cisco Systems, Inc.
ikluft@cisco.com (work) ikluft@thunder.sbay.org (home) San Jose, CA

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From owner-cabal-l-outgoing@rockhopper.deirdre.org Wed Feb 10 22:44:24 1999
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From: Deirdre Saoirse deirdre@deirdre.net
Reply-To: deirdre@deirdre.net
To: cabal-l@windows-refund.org
Subject: Fwd: Article on Windows Refund
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:39:22 -0800
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Did anyone contact him? I am going through my mail from last week when I was
"behind" and found this. I did send a short reply, just wondered if anyone else
had contact (or wanted it.

---------- Forwarded Message ----------
Subject: Article on Windows Refund
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 20:57:52 +0100
From: Denis Delbecq delbecq@lemonde.fr

Hello,

I prepare a paper on the Feb 15 "Windows Refund" event for the weekly
high tech supplement of french daily Le Monde.

Could you precise what kind of events you prepare for this day? I
couldn't find sites on the Feb action outside the US except France and
Japan (I heard of similar site in The Netherlands). Do you have such
contact?

Thanks for answering me,

regards,

Denis Delbecq

--------------------------
Denis Delbecq
Le Monde Interactif
21bis, rue Claude Bernard
75242 Paris Cedex 05. France
Tel: +33 142 17 38 87
Fax: +33 142 17 21 44
http://www.lemonde.fr
--
_Deirdre * http://disclaimer.deirdre.org * http://www.deirdre.net
If "Microsoft" is the question, "No, thank you" is the answer.

From deirdre@rockhopper.deirdre.org Wed Feb 10 22:15:13 1999
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Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:12:16 -0800
From: Deirdre Saoirse deirdre@deirdre.net
Reply-To: deirdre@deirdre.net
To: MikeMillen@aol.com, nick@zork.net
Subject: Re: A (short) legal analysis of Microsoft's EULA
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:30:52 -0800
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Cc: dmarti@electriclichen.com, schoen@uclink4.berkeley.edu,
mattj@thenoodle.com, jal@briar.net, rick@hugin.imat.com
References: fc8c7492.36c26334@aol.com
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Thanks for the article. I understand your position, however, the consent decree
(found at http://law.tqn.com/library/blconsent.htm) prohibits per-processor
licensing and instead allows only per-copy licensing (see 4D).

This brings up the obvious question of what happens AFTER the OEM has refunded
Windows. Ultimately, per my reading, Microsoft must reimburse the OEM.
Otherwise, they are defacto making it a per-processor license (in the case of
single CPU systems anyway) rather than a per-copy license.

On Wed, 10 Feb 1999, MikeMillen@aol.com wrote:
>Don Marti gave me the idea of preparing an article for publication in the
>Windows Refund Day Newsletter. You can find it at http://millen.cc/
>
>If you want to publish it in your newsletter, you are free to do so. Also, if
>you would like to see the analysis somehow expanded let me know!
>
>- Mike
>Michael Millen
>Attorney at Law
>12 S. First St., St. 810
>San Jose, CA 95113
>(408) 998-3262
>(408) 971-4580 [fax]
>email: MikeMillen@aol.com
--
_Deirdre * http://disclaimer.deirdre.org * http://www.deirdre.net
If "Microsoft" is the question, "No, thank you" is the answer.

From MikeMillen@aol.com Wed Feb 10 21:27:30 1999
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Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 23:57:24 EST
To: nick@zork.net
Cc: dmarti@electriclichen.com, schoen@uclink4.berkeley.edu,
mattj@thenoodle.com, deirdre@deirdre.net, jal@briar.net,
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Subject: A (short) legal analysis of Microsoft's EULA
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Hi Nick -

Don Marti gave me the idea of preparing an article for publication in the
Windows Refund Day Newsletter. You can find it at http://millen.cc/

If you want to publish it in your newsletter, you are free to do so. Also, if
you would like to see the analysis somehow expanded let me know!

- Mike
Michael Millen
Attorney at Law
12 S. First St., St. 810
San Jose, CA 95113
(408) 998-3262
(408) 971-4580 [fax]
email: MikeMillen@aol.com

From owner-cabal-l-outgoing@rockhopper.deirdre.org Wed Feb 10 20:07:15 1999
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Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:12:06 -0800
From: Nick Moffitt nick@zork.net
To: cabal-l@windows-refund.org
Subject: [opie@fine-print.com: Re: [refund-news] Issue Four (belated)]
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----- Forwarded message from "Matthew S. Warren" opie@fine-print.com -----

In-Reply-To: 19990208141550.A21486@zork.net
Organization: Mail Forwarding Department, Committee for Fine Print
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 08:01:35 -0500
To: Nick Moffitt nick@zork.net
From: "Matthew S. Warren" opie@fine-print.com
Subject: Re: [refund-news] Issue Four (belated)

Hi.

At 02:15 PM -0800 02/08/1999, Nick Moffitt wrote:
>Manufactured Consent
>
> by Nick Moffitt
>
> Recently on Slashdot (http://slashdot.org), a purchaser of Toshiba
> laptops reported that the wrapping on the delivered hardware contained
> a seal, such that opening the wrapping equates to consenting to the
> license.
>
> I've been following the recent discussion of refunds on Microsoft
> software due to refusal of the EULA. Today I recieved a shipment of
> Toshiba laptops and found there is a sticker saying that you can't
> even take the computer out of the plastic bag it is in without
> accepting the EULA. I don't remember that being on there 2 months
> ago, but maybe I just wasn't looking for it then. Seems like I may
> be stuck with paying for software I never intend to use.
>
> See: http://slashdot.org/articles/99/01/28/097245.shtml
>
> This little eye-roller was the inspiration for this issue's title
> quote from our mascot. Those of you receiving this in email can view
> the image at http://zork.net/refund/issuefour.html with any
> image-capable Web browser.
>
> We here at refund-news feel that this action interferes with the
> spirit of the EULA as Microsoft intended it. The license is designed
> so that if you do not wish to use the software, in the words of
> Microsoft legal affair spokesman Adam Sohn, "there is a recourse for
> that." If this story is to be believed, Toshiba is tying the software
> directly to the hardware, which I'm sure was not Microsoft's intent.

In addition, this is (literally!) a "contract of adhesion," and is almost
certainly not enforceable. You might want to look up some cases (depending
on your state) so that you can have something to say back. It's very
effective:

Microsoft flack: I'm sorry, you accepted the EULA when you took
this laptop out of the box.

Windows Returner: No I didn't! Zane v. Gobbledygook, 1986!!

Microsoft flack: uuuuhhhh [calls security]

You get the idea. Good luck.

-MSW

--
Matthew S. Warren "Nothing happens automatically."
opie@fine-print.com +1 (500) for-opie (Mail for PGP)

----- End forwarded message -----

--
* Progress (n.): The process through which Usenet has evolved from
smart people in front of dumb terminals to dumb people in front of
smart terminals. -- obs@burnout.demon.co.uk (obscurity)

From dmarti@barley.electriclichen.com Wed Feb 10 17:30:20 1999
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Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:30:19 -0800
From: Don Marti dmarti@electriclichen.com
To: Nick Moffitt nick@zork.net
Cc: Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com
Subject: Re: [off-list] (forw) Microsoft Demonstration - February 15th
Message-ID: 19990210173019.A6444@electriclichen.com
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On Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 04:28:07PM -0800, Nickels Moffitt, King of the Low Rollers wrote:

> Stop! It's a trick by Ian Kluft!

Tabinda mentioned to Ian that she will bring walkie-talkies for parade
marshals to communicate. And Ian responds with a set of radio
discipline tips. Since you guys as members of headquarters group
might be using the radio, here they are:

* Make sure squelch and volume are set correctly. Otherwise you won't
hear calls that you should have. (To set it, turn the squelch up
until you hear noise, set the volume to a comfortable/usable level,
and turn the squelch back down just below the point that it cuts out
the noise.

* Pause for a fraction of a second between pressing the push to talk
button and beginning to speak. (Many people have a tendency to begin
talking as they're pressing the switch, and cut themselves off.

* When calling someone on the radio, the shorthand radio etiquette is to say
1) who you're calling (i.e. first name)
2) who you are (i.e. first name)
3) briefly what you want
However, when responding to a call that was directed to you, just answer.

* Unless you know the audio quality is very clear to everyone receiving
you, use "affirmative" instead of "yes", "negative" instead of "no".

* It is not necessary to say "over" unless you're on a noisy frequency
where you can't otherwise tell that a transmission has ended. Since
FRS uses FM, you won't need to do this.

* Since you're using FM radios, if two people transmit at the same time,
the stronger/closer signal will "win" and the other won't be heard at
all. (This is called the "capture effect.")

--
Don Marti Electric Lichen L.L.C.
whois DM683 -rwxr--r-- Harrison Street
dmarti@electriclichen.com San Francisco, California USA

From owner-cabal-l-outgoing@rockhopper.deirdre.org Wed Feb 10 16:42:53 1999
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Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:06:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Matt Jensen mattj@thenoodle.com
To: CABAL refund list cabal-l@windows-refund.org
Subject: refund- computerwire story
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This is cute:

"Adam Sohn who handled spin for the company when the story first broke, is
in Washington, presumably dealing with Microsoft's other big PR problem.
But Sohn is due back in Redmond on - you guessed it - Monday, February 15.
"

Those of you who oppose the DOJ suit, don't worry; court won't be in
session on President's Day, so Microsoft will not suffer from a spin
deficit.

(BTW, I'm assuming computerwire is okay with us publicly linking to the
story, as opposed to just letting the organizers read it. That's what you
meant, right?)

-Matt

From dmarti@barley.electriclichen.com Wed Feb 10 16:40:32 1999
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Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:40:31 -0800
From: Don Marti dmarti@electriclichen.com
To: Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com
Cc: cabal-l@windows-refund.org, Tabinda Khan tabindak@best.com
Subject: Re: (forw) Microsoft Demonstration - February 15th
Message-ID: 19990210164031.A6073@electriclichen.com
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On Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 04:13:27PM -0800, Rick Moen wrote:

> ----- Forwarded message from Jim Carey jcarey@fostercity.org -----
>
> I'm a Lieutenant with the Foster City Police Department and will be the
> Watch Commander the day of the Linux/Microsoft event. Whenever there is a
> planned gathering of a large number of people, the Police Department likes
> to coordinate with the event planners to avoid crowd control problems and
> negative impacts on the other citizens of our community.

Lt. Carey called to offer us a crowd location -- the top deck of the
parking garage across from Microsoft, pending approval from the office
complex management. The other side of Microsoft is a community for
the elderly, and when there's too much noise there, the elderly call
the police. And neither the police nor us wants that.

Oh, and to offer us convenient parking. Foster City, what a town.

I'm inclined to take him up on this, since we can certainly say we're
doing what we're told -- Microsoft told us to come in for a refund,
and the Foster City PD told us to gather on this parking deck.

Exception: if anyone plans to go limp and be symbolically arrested,
Lt. Carey requests that they do so in a place where they don't have to
be carried too far and "give my officers a hernia." We settled on the
sidewalk immediately in front of the Microsoft building.

So if you plan on getting arrested, please don't strain your local
police force. Thank you.

--
Don Marti Electric Lichen L.L.C.
whois DM683 -rwxr--r-- Harrison Street
dmarti@electriclichen.com San Francisco, California USA

From jcarey@fostercity.org Wed Feb 10 16:09:59 1999
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From: Jim Carey jcarey@fostercity.org
To: "'bofh@linuxmafia.com'" bofh@linuxmafia.com
Subject: Microsoft Demonstration - February 15th
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I'm a Lieutenant with the Foster City Police Department and will be the
Watch Commander the day of the Linux/Microsoft event. Whenever there is a
planned gathering of a large number of people, the Police Department likes
to coordinate with the event planners to avoid crowd control problems and
negative impacts on the other citizens of our community.

I would appreciate speaking with either yourself or someone from the users
group who is designated "in-charge" of this event. I can be reached at
(650) 286-3321 and will be working Thursday from 7:00 a.m. until 5:00 p.m..

Thank you for your assistance.

Lieutenant Jim Carey
Foster City Police Department

From dmarti@barley.electriclichen.com Wed Feb 10 16:02:16 1999
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Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:02:15 -0800
From: Don Marti dmarti@electriclichen.com
To: Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com
Cc: Ian Kluft ikluft@cisco.com
Subject: San Jose/Santa Clara posse
Message-ID: 19990210160215.C5915@electriclichen.com
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Rick,

The San Jose/Santa Clara posse will meet at

HOTEL MARRIOTT SANTA CLARA
2700 MISSION COLLEGE BLVD
SANTA CLARA CA 95054

by the "F7" post in the parking lot next to the tennis courts, at
10am.

The posse leader is Ian Kluft ikluft@cisco.com and the ham radio
frequency is 446.5 MHz. Eric Raymond will be in this group.

--
Don Marti Electric Lichen L.L.C.
whois DM683 -rwxr--r-- Harrison Street
dmarti@electriclichen.com San Francisco, California USA

From gumpert@ix.netcom.com Wed Feb 10 19:11:25 1999
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Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 19:13:51 -0800
From: Robert Gumpert gumpert@ix.netcom.com
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To: Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com
Subject: Re: World Refund Day, Bay Area
References: 36C20ACD.5CB88CE3@ix.netcom.com 19990210152150.L16727@hugin.imat.com 36C22C11.2EBEBC00@ix.netcom.com 19990210170201.A18004@hugin.imat.com
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Rick,

I'm in SF, pretty much central.

Robert

From gumpert@ix.netcom.com Wed Feb 10 16:59:48 1999
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Rick,

Joining a carpool would be great. Thanks. Just let me know where and
when.

Robert Gumpert

From gumpert@ix.netcom.com Wed Feb 10 14:37:55 1999
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Rick Moen

Rick -

I will be taking some photos for The Independent Newspaper in London at
the 15th event but need to know time to be there. Could you send a
schedule of events along?

Thanks.

Robert Gumpert

From jays@panix.com Wed Feb 10 19:05:52 1999
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Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:05:46 -0500 (EST)
From: Jay Sulzberger jays@panix.com
To: Nick Moffitt nick@zork.net
cc: Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com, Matt Jensen mattj@thenoodle.com,
CABAL refund list cabal-l@windows-refund.org,
Jay Sulzberger jays@panix.com
Subject: Re: refund- fyi: ABCNews.com story
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On Wed, 10 Feb 1999, Nick Moffitt wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 12:32:30PM -0800, Rick Moen wrote:
> > We've been tracking the various incarnations of Adam Sohn (i.e.,
> > utterances) and other players such as T.R. Reid, in the summaries on
> > http://linuxmafia.com/refund/coverage.html.
> >
> [notes on "there is a recourse for that", and Sohn's flexible stance]
> >
> > He has now, as LXNY also correctly noted, changed his mind.
> >
> > Further, one of the top jurists in the USA, Prof. Lawrence Lessig of
> > Harvard Law, now has stated, in essence, that the claim for refund
> > by terms of the contract is undeniable. Further, he goes on to say
> > that the much-criticised UCC 2b draft legislation would, despite its
> > legitimising of click-wrap licences, actually cement refund rights
> > into law, so that Microsoft could no longer revoke them as it did
> > recently in Australia.
>
> My oh my! Rick, would you mind writing up an analysis of these two
> events for refund-news?
>
> --
> * Progress (n.): The process through which Usenet has evolved from
> smart people in front of dumb terminals to dumb people in front of
> smart terminals. -- obs@burnout.demon.co.uk (obscurity)

Just one point tangential to what is planned for 15 February 1999,
but not for what is planned for 15 March 1999:

Microsoft may "revoke" their license for Australia, which, of course, was
sent with the Toshiba laptops by sheer incompetent inadvertence, but they
cannot revoke the strict consumer protection and fair business practice
laws, regulations, etc., of Australia, the Commonwealth, and all of the
European Union. I believe that these laws, regulations, etc., will
shortly be brought to bear and will end the unfair advantage Microsoft
presently enjoys at point of sale of 85% of all peecees sold today.

oo--JS.

From dmarti@barley.electriclichen.com Wed Feb 10 15:57:30 1999
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Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:57:29 -0800
From: Don Marti dmarti@electriclichen.com
To: Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com
Cc: Nick Moffitt nick@zork.net,
CABAL refund list cabal-l@windows-refund.org
Subject: Re: refund- fyi: ABCNews.com story
Message-ID: 19990210155729.A5915@electriclichen.com
References: 19990209170455.B14194@hugin.imat.com Pine.GSU.4.05.9902101227080.9438-100000@panix3.panix.com 19990210123230.D16727@hugin.imat.com 19990210143239.N24053@zork.net 19990210151637.K16727@hugin.imat.com
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On Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 03:16:37PM -0800, Rick Moen wrote:

> Don's counter-strategy of nonetheless walking in, in naive-user
> mode, and simply asserting one's right to a refund, remains ideal,
> but we should know in advance what we will almost certainly hear.

If somebody denies you something, you must have asked wrong. Ask
again slower, using different words. And be polite. If your OEM has
already denied you a refund, you're in a better position to do this,
of course.

> I also expect Microsoft to send out "handlers" from Foster City
> to our assembly points, to try to deal with us at a distance.
> I suggest politely declining to deal with them, saying we'll
> talk to the appropriate parties at 950 Tower Lane, Suite 900.

If you run into them, agree enthusiastically with anything they say.
Express your appreciation for Microsoft. If they suggest anything
other than walking to 950 Tower Lane, agree heartily, but add, "as
soon as we're done picking up our refund checks, which shouldn't take
long."

--
Don Marti Electric Lichen L.L.C.
whois DM683 -rwxr--r-- Harrison Street
dmarti@electriclichen.com San Francisco, California USA

From nick@zork.net Wed Feb 10 14:27:52 1999
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Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:32:39 -0800
From: Nick Moffitt nick@zork.net
To: Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com
Cc: Jay Sulzberger jays@panix.com, Matt Jensen mattj@thenoodle.com,
CABAL refund list cabal-l@windows-refund.org
Subject: Re: refund- fyi: ABCNews.com story
Message-ID: 19990210143239.N24053@zork.net
References: 19990209170455.B14194@hugin.imat.com Pine.GSU.4.05.9902101227080.9438-100000@panix3.panix.com 19990210123230.D16727@hugin.imat.com
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On Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 12:32:30PM -0800, Rick Moen wrote:
> We've been tracking the various incarnations of Adam Sohn (i.e.,
> utterances) and other players such as T.R. Reid, in the summaries on
> http://linuxmafia.com/refund/coverage.html.
>
[notes on "there is a recourse for that", and Sohn's flexible stance]
>
> He has now, as LXNY also correctly noted, changed his mind.
>
> Further, one of the top jurists in the USA, Prof. Lawrence Lessig of
> Harvard Law, now has stated, in essence, that the claim for refund
> by terms of the contract is undeniable. Further, he goes on to say
> that the much-criticised UCC 2b draft legislation would, despite its
> legitimising of click-wrap licences, actually cement refund rights
> into law, so that Microsoft could no longer revoke them as it did
> recently in Australia.

My oh my! Rick, would you mind writing up an analysis of these two
events for refund-news?

--
* Progress (n.): The process through which Usenet has evolved from
smart people in front of dumb terminals to dumb people in front of
smart terminals. -- obs@burnout.demon.co.uk (obscurity)

From simona@computerwire.com Wed Feb 10 13:08:30 1999
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As our articles on Windows Refund day weren't featured on the press coverage page <http://hugin.imat.com/refund/coverage.html> - possibly because we ask people to pay for our articles - Rachel Chalmers (mailto:rachel@computerwire.com), our journalist covering the refund situation, has asked me to pass along free URLs to the articles she's written about it.

1: http://www.computerwire.com/cgi-bin/view?article=yxxsvozPiShStadQggdccfvLUjhLxVpAcPmiUx0Etx9Y7mcoSi7r1EcPAmaThPvL

2: http://www.computerwire.com/cgi-bin/view?article=yMxvvWzIiahZtjdFgZdGcKvpUF0a3L3Q3eUR6Vrc2kcySf0Qtb2SAraUhrvK

3: http://www.computerwire.com/cgi-bin/view?article=yPxpvgzAiQhotQdSgkdachvyUf0P3j3T3JUs6tcGcXcBSa0Utf2kAhaahhvZ

4: http://www.computerwire.com/cgi-bin/view?article=yAxbvrzeivhktIdDgzddcRvlUX0o3h3o3WUo6h3l2icmSb0sth2QAZaDhZvv

5: http://www.computerwire.com/cgi-bin/view?article=yOxYvEzSizhetKdtgodvctvVUq0j3C3G9iUl4h0TpE2wSA6h4k6pAwachuva

If you do use these, please let me know as the first will change when the story is aged out of the latest news section and I'll need to send you an updated link.

- Si

--
Simon Austin --- Webmaster --- ComputerWire Inc.
mailto:simona@computerwire.com http://www.computerwire.com/
+++ Divide By Cucumber Error. Please Reinstall Universe And Reboot +++

From mikep@swdc.stratus.com Wed Feb 10 11:36:49 1999
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Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 11:36:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Mike Pelletier mikep@swdc.stratus.com
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Subject: Volunteering
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So, what do I need to do besides show up?

-Mike Pelletier.

From LJFlynn@aol.com Wed Feb 10 10:45:41 1999
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Rick, Are you considering changing the Feb 15th date to go to Microsoft's
Foster City office because of the national holiday that day? (Will MS's office
even be open?)//Laurie Flynn, The New York Times - 415-925-0492

From owner-cabal-l-outgoing@rockhopper.deirdre.org Wed Feb 10 00:23:52 1999
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Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 00:28:24 -0800
From: Nick Moffitt nick@zork.net
To: Hiro Satoh satoh@zork.net, cabal-l@windows-refund.org
Subject: [rika@well.com: Japanese Press wants cover 15th]
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----- Forwarded message from rika rika@well.com -----

X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3-J (32)
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 18:35:30 -0800
To: Nick Moffitt nick@zork.net
From: rika rika@well.com
Subject: Japanese Press wants cover 15th
In-Reply-To: 19990208175357.G21486@zork.net

Hi.
I am correspondent to Japanese computer magazine AsahiPC and would like to
attend on 15th and report to. If you could provid some idea on what will
happen on 15th, I would greatly appriciated.

Do you think "we" can get in the office or are you expecting to deal with
security gurad?

How many will show up?

thank you

RIka

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
You can find translated section of my book on
http://www.l0pht.com/~tan/presskit/press/HACK!!!.html

----- End forwarded message -----

--
* Progress (n.): The process through which Usenet has evolved from
smart people in front of dumb terminals to dumb people in front of
smart terminals. -- obs@burnout.demon.co.uk (obscurity)

From bhushan@magnet.at Wed Feb 10 00:19:06 1999
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Reply-To: niyam@technologist.com
From: "Niyam" bhushan@magnet.at
To: bofh@linuxmafia.com
Cc: "pcworld" pcworld@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in
Subject: refund press coverage
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 13:49:07 +0530
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Dear Rick Moen,

As Contributing Editor, PCWorld India, i wrote the following piece in my
regular column, which got published in the February 99 issue of the
magazine in India. You may publish it on your press coverage website,
provided you do not modify or change it in any way.

please acknowledge.

thanx
niyam

***
Get your money back from Microsoft. Conditions apply.

There's a bomb on the bus. If it stops, or even slows down as it hurtles
through the morning rush hour traffic, it will explode.

Sure. You remember the movie, 'Speed' starring Keeanu Reeves. But, do you
remember the advertising signboard at the rear of the doomed bus? An ad for
a bank, it said, "Money isn't everything. Yeah right." Well, money is
everything. And reading the fine print could get you a couple of thousand
rupees from Microsoft. Especially if you read the fine print on your
Microsoft package carefully.

"If you do not agree to the terms of this [agreement], PC Manufacturer and
Microsoft are unwilling to license the software product to you," according
to a copy of the Windows end user licensing agreement, "and you should
promptly contact PC Manufacturer for instructions on return of the unused
products(s) for a refund."

I Want My Money Back
So how does it work? Simple. After purchasing your computer, do NOT yet
switch it on. Read the Microsoft End User License Agreement (EULA)
carefully, looking for a clause that is similar to the one above. Then,
bring along a Linux or other OS system floppy, and preferably in the
presence of the vendor that sold you the machine, and along with a few
witnesses, boot up the machine using your Linux, Netware, BEOS, OS/2, or
other OS floppy, and delete the partition tables of your hard disk. You
would have then erased the Microsoft OS from your hard disk, without having
launched it even once. Then, contact the vendor or Microsoft immediately,
state that you have not accepted the EULA, and ask for instructions on how
to return the unused manuals and CD so you may get your refund.

So you think I'm kidding. Go check out
www.netcraft.com.au/geoffrey/toshiba.html. Here you'll find the six month
saga of Geoffrey Bennett. This intrepid Australian Linux-user bought a
Toshiba laptop, and followed a similar procedure to delete his Windows
installation, and then kept following up with a startled Toshiba until they
sent him a refund cheque for A$ 110 in August 1998. Immediately after
Geoffrey updated his website, news travelled around the web and millions of
people descended on his and other newly spinning websites across the web on
the refund. To be fair, it was actually a woman called Donna who got the
first refund, from Canon, almost a year before Geoffrey got his. But
Geoffrey documented his story well, and even published a scanned image of
the cheque online. That of course, is like hungry sharks tasting blood in
the ocean. The scanned image of this historic cheque is eagerly loading
into thousands of browsers around the world even as you read this.

Pulling out all the stops
The Windows Refund Center, www.linuxmafia.com/refund/ is spearheading the
effort to reimburse PC users running a non-Windows operating system for the
cost of their pre-installed OS. This website has a FAQ, as well as several
links to press coverage, area-wise centres, and online newsletter
subscriptions. Several campaigns are especially being waged among Linux
users and to publicize the movement, these groups have declared February 15
"Windows Refund Day." Admittedly motivated by the possibility of a
nice-sized check from Microsoft, the organizers say the larger goal is to
bring public attention to the open source movement and to Microsoft's
licensing agreements with PC makers that preclude hardware vendors from
loading non-Windows operating systems.

"A lot of the people involved want a refund on principle," said Matt
Jensen, Webmaster for the Windows Refund Center site and a Seattle-based
Linux user. "My longer term goal would be to have Microsoft change its
licensing so they don't force companies to bundle Windows."

I am quite certain that Microsoft, in all fairness, will refund those
people who prove they did not agree to the EULA. However, it throws open
the possibility of several unscrupulous people who may demand a refund
after pirating a copy of the pre-installed software, or demanding a refund
when they have launched or are still using the software anyway.
Cross-verifying the computers of thousands or even millions of people is
going to be costly and full of hassles. A better option is for Microsoft to
not bundle the software, and let users decide at the time of purchase.
Surely Microsoft has nothing to worry about, they own nearly 90% of the
market anyway.

If any one of you has already got a refund in India, or on reading this is
applying for one, do let us know. I'm sure all readers would be interested
in your story.

Niyam Bhushan, Director, Digital Dionysus, consults and trains in digital
imaging, design, and publishing. Contact him at niyam@technologist.com.

***

From chris@dibona.com Wed Feb 10 15:11:20 1999
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From: "Chris J. DiBona" chris@dibona.com
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To: rick@hugin.imat.com
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Hi Rick...

For those in mountain view that wish to get together for refund day, meet
in the Parking Lot of VA Research Linux Systems, at 1235 Pear Ave.
Directions to follow.

When: Start Congregating at 9:30am
Leave for the site at 10:00am Sharp

Where: 1235 Pear Ave #111.

>From 101 heading south:

Take the shoreline exit (like you are going to the movies). Take a left on
shoreline. Cross over 101. Get into right lane and take a right on Pear
Ave, which is right after the big funky SGI building on the right.If you
hit a fence, crash through and hit a mobile home, you've gone too far.

>From 101 heading north:

Get off at the shoreline exit, take a left onto shoreline. Cross over 101.
Get into right lane and take a right on Pear Ave, which is right after the
big funky SGI building on the right. Take pear to the end, VA Research is
in the last set of buildings on the right. (You'll see a sign.) If you hit
a fence, crash through and hit a mobile home, you've gone too far.

I'll probably be outside handing out t-shirts, we've ordered 200 of them,
so there should be enough for most. I ahve long dark hair, and am about 6
feet tall. I'll wear my SVLUG yellow penguin badge, so I'll be hard to miss.

We'll leave convoy style and head up the the "designated meeting point"
where we will meet up with our tribe.

Chris DiBona

--
Director of Linux Marketing - VA Research Inc. http://www.varesearch.com
Vice President, Silicon Valley Linux Users Group http://www.svlug.org
Webmaster & Grant Chair, Linux International. http://www.li.org
Tannu Tuva or Bust! whois cjd32 http://www.dibona.com

From kmself@ix.netcom.com Tue Feb 9 22:08:17 1999
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Subject: Windows refund day -- KQED: Forum/Krazny
References: 199902060828.AAA02455@svlug.svlug.org, 36BF3F05.249AF8B7@allant.com, 19990208122442.E9764@hugin.imat.com slrn7c15he.mn2.marc_news@magic.magic.metawire.com 19990209131313.F12947@hugin.imat.com
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Rick:

Have you given any thought to getting onto Michael Krazny's "Forum" show
(KQED Radio) WRT Windows Refund Day? This would be a great tie-in. Not
sure if you want to be the "voice", there would also probably be some
interest in getting a balanced view from MSFT and/or one of the VARs
(maybe you could get Augustin to stand in as a VAR <g>).

--
Karsten M. Self (kmself@ix.netcom.com)

What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?
Welchen Teil von "Gestalt" verstehen Sie nicht?

web: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself
SAS/Linux: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself/SAS/SAS4Linux.html

10:01pm up 1:13, 2 users, load average: 0.27, 0.27, 0.21

From owner-balug-talk@balug.org Tue Feb 9 17:58:21 1999
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Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 17:55:44 -0800
From: Don Marti dmarti@electriclichen.com
To: svlug@svlug.org, balug-talk@balug.org
Subject: TV again
Message-ID: 19990209175544.A31999@electriclichen.com
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Attention Linux users:

If you want to see me on TV:

WB20, 9 February, 10 pm

WB20, Saturday 13 February, 6 pm
KNTV 11, Saturday 13 February, 6:30 pm

More Windows Refund Day stuff.

Hope to see you all on the 15th.

--
Don Marti Electric Lichen L.L.C.
whois DM683 -rwxr--r-- Harrison Street
dmarti@electriclichen.com San Francisco, California USA

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From merlin@magic.magic.metawire.com Tue Feb 9 14:09:22 1999
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Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 14:10:14 -0800
From: Marc Merlin marc@merlins.org
To: marshals@linuxmafia.com
Subject: Need help
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Hi Rick,

I'm planning to come on the 15th, and show of having any license to return
myself, I can always be Marshal.

Since this is going to be a day of work, knowing in advance what times we'd
go there would be useful :-)

See you later,
Marc
--
"Microsoft is to software what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking"

Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ (friendly to non IE browsers)
Finger marc_f@merlins.org for PGP key and other contact information

From riegs@dnai.com Tue Feb 9 14:02:21 1999
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Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:59:28 -0800
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Rick,

I report for a weekly public radio show called Beyond Computers, produced
in San Francisco and and distributed nationally. I'm gonna come to
Microsoft in Foster City on Monday to witness and chat with some of the
people seeking refunds. I'll watch for scheduling information on your web
page, but I wonder if you can suggest the organizer(s) of this event most
suitable for a taped interview.

Many thanks.

John Rieger
Beyond Computers

----------------------------------------------------
John H. Rieger riegs@dnai.com 510-848-8544
----------------------------------------------------
PGP Public Key available at:
http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-commands.html
----------------------------------------------------

From jsb@cs.brown.edu Tue Feb 9 13:39:19 1999
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> > I have a question which doesn't appear in your FAQ, perhaps others
> > are wondering this, too?
> >
> > I purchased my Compaq laptop from CDW. Do I request a refund from
> > CDW, Compaq or Microsoft?
>
> If you have a look at your EULA, it probably states that Microsoft
> refuses to licence the software to persons not accepting the EULA,
> and that they should return it to "Manufacturer" for a refund.

Actually, I've never seen my EULA, since I never opened the shrink wrap
the software is in, and don't plan to. In fact, I didn't even realize
I had it until I was throwing out the box last August and heard
something rattling around inside. I gleefully reformatted the disk the
day I got it and never looked back.

I'll go after compaq, then.

Thanks.

John

From owner-cabal-l-outgoing@rockhopper.deirdre.org Tue Feb 9 10:15:44 1999
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From: Mark Bolzern Mark@LinuxMall.com
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This guy makes a good point if anyone wishes to respond to him
--
Mark Bolzern mark@LinuxMall.com
Linux Mall --> is The Linux Superstore
http://www.LinuxMall.com mailto:info@LinuxMall.com
Phone: 303-693-3321 Fax: 303-699-2793
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--
Linux Mall, a division of WorkGroup Solutions, Inc.
The Linux Superstore
http://www.LinuxMall.com mailto:info@LinuxMall.com Tel: 303-699-7470
Orders: 800-234-7813 or 303-693-3321 Fax: 303-699-2793

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Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 09:02:24 -0500
From: "Robert M. Epler" eples@UDel.Edu
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Hello friendly Linux people:
Please forward this message to the folks heading up the Windows refund
project.

You guys really should post a form letter people seeking refunds can
simply print out and sign. Can you imagine these poor OEMs sorting
through mounds of hate mail demanding refunds? That's clearly not going
to get much accomplished. A standard from letter should be established.
It will undoubtedly speed up processing time, especially since the
people dealing with these refunds have little or nothing to do with the
sales agreements with Microsoft.

On a seperate note, the impending deluge of refund requests will
ultimately aid Microsoft's anti-trust suits. After February 15th,
Microsoft will be able to cite thousands of examples where people
received refunds - and therefore were not "forced" to use Windows95/98.
The refund day is a good idea, though, in that it will draw attention to
the fact that a number of consumers are unhappy, and also that there
actually do exist other OSs.

Thanks for your time,
Rob E.

--
_________________________________________ #####| #####|
|#########################################| ###| ###|
| Rob Epler ---- Computer Science Senior| ###| ###|
| | ###| ###|
|U-N-I-V-E-R-S-I-T-Y--O-F--D-E-L-A-W-A-R-E| ###| @@@###|@@.
| | ###| @@@:##|@@@.
| http://udel.edu/~eples | ###| @@@:##| @@@.
| E-MAIL: eples@udel.edu | ###:@@@:#| @@@.
|#########################################| #:@@@: @@@.
|========== How's my surfing? ============| @@@. @@@.
| E-mail: reports@eat.sh*t.and.die.com | @@@. @@@.
`~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~' @@@. @@@.
@@@@@@@@@.

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From clingo@ihot.com Tue Feb 9 14:07:55 1999
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Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 14:06:41 -0500
From: "Charles J. Lingo" clingo@ihot.com
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To: Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com
Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day
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Rick Moen wrote:
>
> Quoting Charles J. Lingo (clingo@ihot.com):
>
> > I am a user of IBM OS/2 WARP Connect. In the FAQ it appears that even
> > though I have never used the forced copy of Win 95 that accompanied my
> > Acer laptop, I am not really welcome at this event to get a refund
> > because I am not using an open source operating system. Is this
> > correct? My shrinkwrap has not been broken, even though the laptop was
> > purchased almost a year ago.
>
> Charles --
>
> The Bay Area effort reflected on that Web site is coordinated by
> several volunteers who _correctly_ expected to be swamped by the
> response from open-source OS users alone. We have, and are trying
> to shoulder, more work to do in preparing for this event than we
> can handle. (There is a huge and very active community of such
> users in the Bay Area.)
>
> The only logical remedy, it seemed to us, was to encourage multiple
> parallel efforts, to spread the work. That is why the SCO Unix
> people are organising their user base.
>
> I'm a big fan of Warp 3 and Warp 4, and would love to see a huge
> turnout of Bay Area OS/2 users. Would you care to establish a
> Web site, and take care of organising a group visit by OS/2 users?
> You would be doing the OS/2 a community a big favour, especially
> given the recent collapse of OS/2 Bay Area User Group. If you do
> not have Web space, I can lend you some, on at least a temporary
> basis, and you are welcome to borrow and adapt any HTML and content
> from the http://linuxmafia.com/refund/ subtree.
>
> Please let us know, and we will immediately link to your page and
> begin sharing with you all information we have. Time is, of course,
> short, so you will have to move quickly.
>
> By the way, you perhaps did not read the _following_ question and
> answer in the FAQ: Although the persons in our group seeking to return
> software will be open-source OS users, and we will verify their
> status as such prior to our collective visit, others who wish
> to come along, who are not returning software but wish to show
> their support, are of course welcome.
>
> I am curious, also, about the packaging of your "shrinkwrap" package:
> In my experience, there is a paperbound book with a CD-ROM inside,
> with a green licence certificate and activation key showing on the
> outside, with that entire package then shrink-wrapped. The problem
> this raises is, of course, that one can use the displayed activation
> key on the pre-loaded copy of Win9x without breaking the shrink-wrap.
> This is why I mention in the FAQ that elapsed time since purchase
> isn't an automatic disqualifier, but that seeking a refund immediately
> after purchase makes it more self-evidently true that the software
> is unused.
>
> If I have missed something about the nature of your "shrinkwrap"
> parcel, please let me know.
>
> --
> Cheers, My pid is Inigo Montoya. You kill -9
> Rick Moen my parent process. Prepare to vi.
> rick (at) hugin.imat.com

Rick,

I should love to do this but I simply don't have the expertise.
You are correct in your description of the shinkwrap. In Acer's case, I
believe that you do not need these. It started, if I remember correctly,
with a form to activate it by answering questions.

I may be hung because I didn't just delete Win95. I used Partition magic
to shrink the Win95 partition and then install OS/2. I figured that if
this thing didn't work I could restore it to "as purchased" condition,
software wise, and return it. To make a long story short, I shall never
buy another thing with the Acer name on it.

Chuck Lingo
clingo@ihot.com

From clingo@ihot.com Tue Feb 9 13:17:04 1999
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From: "Charles J. Lingo" clingo@ihot.com
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Rick,

I am a user of IBM OS/2 WARP Connect. In the FAQ it appears that even
though I have never used the forced copy of Win 95 that accompanied my
Acer laptop, I am not really welcome at this event to get a refund
because I am not using an open source operating system. Is this
correct? My shrinkwrap has not been broken, even though the laptop was
purchased almost a year ago.

Charles J. Lingo
San Jose, CA
408-281-2709

clingo@ihot.com

From owner-cabal-l-outgoing@rockhopper.deirdre.org Tue Feb 9 03:57:58 1999
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From: Roberto.Di.Cosmo@ens.fr
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To: A.Raman@massey.ac.nz, cabal-l@windows-refund.org
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Selling a copy of the software alone seems to be implicitly
prohibited by the EULA: they say that the licence is only
given to you *on the PC it came with*.
This makes sense formally because the EULA is (ridiculously)
binding you to the *PC manufacturer*, not Microsoft.

This poses another problem, too: apparently, you are not allowed
to re-use the CD that came with an old PC on a new replacement machine.

That is a *mayor* field of application of the refund, so we should
start wondering if the EULA is *legal* after all, but of course all
this is an orthogonal issue to the current Feb 15 campaign

--Roberto

From s_mcneil@earthlink.net Thu Feb 11 06:03:15 1999
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Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 01:38:55 -0800
From: Scott McNeil s_mcneil@earthlink.net
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Brothers,

I humbly request to be the East Bay Marshal for Windows Refund Day.

I propose that the gathering place be in front of the MacArthur BART
station and that the caravan shall depart at approximately one hour
before the scheduled march in Foster City.

Further I request the creation of the email address ebay@linuxmafia.com
with a .forward pointer to s_mcneil@earthlink.net. Please post something
about this asap so that I can gauge the drivers to passengers ratio and
attempt to fix any discrepancies.

Lastly I propose that I rent a passenger van, paid for by me, to assist
in the transport of participants.

If I am to succeed in my mission of gathering lots of bodies I will need
action and assistance from you, my brothers in Open Source.

Scott
--
Scott McNeil
DXM LLC
510.339.6738

From s_mcneil@earthlink.net Wed Feb 10 15:35:08 1999
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From: Scott McNeil s_mcneil@earthlink.net
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To: marshals@linuxmafia.com, Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com,
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Subject: East Bay Marshal!!!
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Hey Guys,

I really want this WRD to be a big blast, but we only have five days
until the big event.

Could you announce that the east bay cartel will be meeting at the
McArthur BART station at 10:30 AM and leaving at 11:00 AM for Foster
City? (Maybe I am just brain dead, I didn't see a mailing list for
WRD...)

Could you give me an email address at whatever domain you have and point
it to s_mcneil@earthlink.net so I can gauge the drivers to passengers
ratio? I will not pay the money to rent a van unless I can see that
there is a need for it. (Remember, I'm unemployed...)

How about this for an announcement:

Windows Refund Day East Bay Gathering Site
------------------------------------------

The gathering point for WRD will be in front of the McArthur BART
station.

Participants are encouraged to arrive early, 10:30 AM, with signs,
banners, musical instruments, noise makers, etc.

The group will be leaving for Foster City at 11:00 AM sharp.

The East Bay Marshal is Scott McNeil. Please email him at
ebmarshal@___.___ if you need or can offer a ride.

See you then!

Windows Refund Day Staff
--

Sorry if I sound like a nagging old bitty, but I want this to be a grand
event! (May I bring my tambourine?)

Scott
--
Scott McNeil
DXM LLC
510.339.6738

From s_mcneil@earthlink.net Tue Feb 9 01:40:53 1999
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Brothers,

I humbly request to be the East Bay Marshal for Windows Refund Day.

I propose that the gathering place be in front of the MacArthur BART
station and that the caravan shall depart at approximately one hour
before the scheduled march in Foster City.

Lastly I propose that I rent a passenger van, paid for by me, to assist
in the transport of participants.

If I am to succeed in my mission of gathering lots of bodies I will need
action and assistance from you, my brothers in Open Source.

Scott
--
Scott McNeil
DXM LLC
510.339.6738

From ikluft@cisco.com Tue Feb 9 02:29:50 1999
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From: Ian Kluft ikluft@cisco.com
Message-Id: 199902090441.UAA18821@tiber.cisco.com
Subject: Refund Marshal volunteer
To: marshals@linuxmafia.com
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 20:41:42 -0800 (PST)
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Hello...

(Let me guess - Rick and Don, right?)

Have you got enough Marshals for Refund Day? I don't have any refund
opportunities myself (since I put my systems together from parts) and
Cisco has a company holiday that day. I'm still embarassed about getting
thanked by Microsoft after keeping things civilized at the SV Tea Party.
But I guess that's the kind of help you're looking for...
--
Ian Kluft KO6YQ PP-ASEL Cisco Systems, Inc.
ikluft@cisco.com (work) ikluft@thunder.sbay.org (home) San Jose, CA

From owner-cabal-l-outgoing@rockhopper.deirdre.org Mon Feb 8 19:30:24 1999
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From: Don Marti dmarti@electriclichen.com
To: Matt Jensen mattj@thenoodle.com
Cc: cabal-l@windows-refund.org
Subject: Re: Selling MS Windows separately - Plan B
Message-ID: 19990208192820.A24337@electriclichen.com
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On Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 05:23:35PM -0800, Matt Jensen wrote:

> Anyway, I humbly suggest that we brainstorm a simple, quotable
> response to give Microsoft and the press in the off chance that
> Microsoft declines to give refunds.

How about this:

Huh? But it says "refund" right here! Must be some mistake, I'll
ask again.

The appropriate response to not getting a refund is to be puzzled,
insist that others are getting refunds, and declare that there must be
some mixup, because Microsoft couldn't _not_ pay a refund.

> Finally, to those of you who have been talking with people at
> Microsoft; I'm glad they sound like they'll be reasonable, but
> there's a chance someone in Redmond may try to catch us off
> guard. Maybe the people you've talked to, maybe someone higher
> up. Better to be prepared?

I've been talking with Microsoft people. The only way to be prepared
for this thing is to have people in the parking lot when the TV
cameras show up. Windows Refund Day is about (1) lots of people (2)
asking for a refund to which they are entitled. If we can deliver (1)
and (2) we win. If we don't, we lose.

--
Don Marti Electric Lichen L.L.C.
whois DM683 -rwxr--r-- Harrison Street
dmarti@electriclichen.com San Francisco, California USA

From owner-cabal-l-outgoing@rockhopper.deirdre.org Mon Feb 8 18:07:01 1999
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Jay Sulzberger wrote:

>Could you post a pointer to a Web page where this response of Dell
>appears? If not, could you please make a copy of this article and I shall
>forward it with an explanation to Joel Klein, head of anti-trust at the
>United States Department of Justice.

In InfoTech Weekly, Issue #379, Monday 8 Feb 1999, p.12:
Title of article:

UniForum plans NZ Windows campaign

col 4, paras 4,5:

"Made-to-order PC company Dell says it will take refund requests on a
case-by-case basis, depending on how Windows was "costed into the
price of each computer.

"We might have costed in at zero, in which case definitely not," says
New Zealand managing director Ross Allan.

- &

From bennye@sfgate.com Mon Feb 8 16:49:50 1999
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From: Benny Evangelista bennye@sfgate.com
To: "'rick@hugin.imat.com'" rick@hugin.imat.com
Subject: Windows Refund Day
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 16:47:36 -0800
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Just wanted to check in with you to see how Windows Refund Day preparations
are coming along. Still on target to go down to MS in Foster City next
Monday? How many people you think will be going?

Benny Evangelista
Staff Writer
San Francisco Chronicle
(415) 777-6051
bennye@sfgate.com

From thalakan@technologist.com Mon Feb 8 14:11:13 1999
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From: "Jason Spence" thalakan@technologist.com
To: marshals@linuxmafia.com
Subject: rle's Net Skink references
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:11:25 -0800
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0038_01BE536C.E9CC3440
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hey, Rick -

I'm Jason, I volunteered to be a marshal for WRD a few days ago. I'm =
writing because Rebecca Eisenberg noted in her Net Skink column =
(http://examiner.com/990207/0207skink.shtml ) that there were rumors of =
a party and parade on WRD. Is one of the CABAL members planning =
something special? There's nothing listed in the usual places; I =
already wrote her to try and untangle this.

- Jason

------=_NextPart_000_0038_01BE536C.E9CC3440
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Hey, Rick -</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I'm Jason, I volunteered to be a marshal for WRD a =
few days=20
ago.  I'm writing because Rebecca Eisenberg noted in her Net Skink =
column=20
(<A=20
href=3D" http://examiner.com/990207/0207skink.shtml">http://examiner.com/9=
90207/0207skink.shtml</A>=20
) that there were rumors of a party and parade on WRD.  Is one of =
the CABAL=20
members planning something special?  There's nothing listed in the =
usual=20
places; I already wrote her to try and untangle this.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2> - Jason</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0038_01BE536C.E9CC3440--

From tmachida@pacbell.net Mon Feb 8 12:21:39 1999
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Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 12:34:55 -0800
To: bofh@linuxmafia.com
From: Toshio Machida tmachida@pacbell.net
Subject: Inrterview request
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Hello Mr.Rick Moen.

I am Toshio Machida, correspondent and bureau chief of NIKKEI Silicon
Valley Bureau. Nikkei is the leading Japanse business daily( such as Wall
Street Jounal and Finacila Times) with more than 3 million subscribers
worldwide. I cover high tech and company news in Silicon Valley, and aeger
to have an interview( in-person) with whom representing "Windows Refund
Day" activity. As Microsoft monopoly and Linux-open-source move is on of
the hottest issue ins Japan as well. We are planning to write a series of
feature article on Linux on NIKKEI.

Please give me your available time fot the small interview with 40 or so
minutes. My best time is morning time in early this week. Thank you in
advance for your attention.

Toshio Machida
NIKKEI, SIlicon Valley Bureau
4410 El Camino Real #202 Los Altos, CA 94022
TEL:650-917-7350 FAX:650-917-7360
tmachida@pacbell.net machida_sv@nikkei.com

From jmenezes@plesman.com Mon Feb 8 11:51:59 1999
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Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 14:48:27 -0500
From: Joaquim Menezes jmenezes@plesman.com
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--------------6D5D7F170938529CAF3E6EB0
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Hi:

I'm a reporter with 'Computing Canada' and am doing an article on the
Windows "refund campaign." I would be greatful if you took the time to
respond to a few questions. I'm on a rather tight deadline so could you
please send me your response sometime later today or latest by tommorow
(Tuesday, February 9) morning.
If you email me your responses, kindly also send a copy to my personal
address: joaquimmenezes@hotmail.com
Alternatively you may phone me at: 1-800-387-5012
Could you also please advise me as to Matt Jensen's and Ralph Nader's
phone numbers.
Thanks.

Joaquim

The questions:

1. What's the latest on the Windows refund program?
2. Microsoft spokesperson Tom Pilla says PC manufacturers have never
been forced to bundle the Windows OS with their machines but are free to
ship "whatever operating system they choose." What's your response to
this claim?
3. Do you believe this "campaign" will have any longterm impact -- like
OEMs beginning to market computers without a pre-configured OS?

--------------6D5D7F170938529CAF3E6EB0
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
 
<p>Hi:
<p>I'm a reporter with 'Computing Canada' and am doing an article on the
Windows "refund campaign."  I would be greatful if you took the time
to respond to a few questions. I'm on a rather tight deadline so could
you please send me your response sometime later today or latest by tommorow
(Tuesday, February 9) morning.
<br>If you email me your responses, kindly also send a copy to my personal
address: joaquimmenezes@hotmail.com
<br>Alternatively you may phone me at: 1-800-387-5012
<br>Could you also please advise me as to Matt Jensen's and Ralph Nader's
phone numbers.
<br>Thanks.
<p>Joaquim
<p><b><u>The questions:</u></b>
<p>1. What's the latest on the Windows refund program?
<br>2. Microsoft spokesperson Tom Pilla says PC manufacturers have never
been forced to bundle the Windows OS with their machines but are free to
ship "whatever operating system they choose." What's your response to this
claim?
<br>3. Do you believe this "campaign" will have any longterm impact --
like OEMs beginning to market computers without a pre-configured OS?
<br> 
<br> </html>

--------------6D5D7F170938529CAF3E6EB0--

From owner-cabal-l-outgoing@rockhopper.deirdre.org Sun Feb 7 21:10:11 1999
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From: Dr Anand Venkataraman A.Raman@massey.ac.nz
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Hi Please check the new article I have at

http://www.uniforum.org.nz/windowsrefund/relevance.html

to argue why this is relevant in NZ. Others outside USA
may find that they might have had to put up with
similar responses from MS in their respective regions.

Tomorrow, I plan to also advertise on the site and other media that
"People who want to buy Brand new Microsoft products at a discount
are welcome to attend the event and snap up some real bargains.
At any rate, if MS won't take it back, we are free to sell our
copies to potential MSOS buyers.

How's that for an idea?

- &

From owner-cabal-l-outgoing@rockhopper.deirdre.org Sun Feb 7 18:59:16 1999
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Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 18:54:55 -0800
From: Seth David Schoen schoen@uclink4.berkeley.edu
To: cabal-l@windows-refund.org
Subject: Re: Issue Four draft
Mail-Followup-To: cabal-l@windows-refund.org
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Nick Moffitt writes:

> OK, After a week of dallying, I feel I've got a decent issue
> four up. Please let me know if I've done anything ridiculously stupid
> to it. Also, I'm interested in your feedback on my little tickler in
> the middle.
>
> http://zork.net/refund/issuefour.html

You could add more stuff on "implicit consent" and argue over what can
constitute "implicit consent". You could mention "by reading this
sentence..."

In particular, what sorts of actions do individuals have the right to
perform of their own initiative without creating any obligations? If I
say that someone implicitly agrees to something by performing a particular
action, under what circumstances is that person being deceptive or
dishonest by performing that action without intending to be bound? How
is the answer to this question different (as applied to software licenses)
if intellectual property

- inherently exists as an absolute right?
- inherently exists as a right to control duplication or
disclosure?
- has been created through a social contract as an absolute right?
- has been created through a social contract as a right to control
duplication or disclosure?
- is a fiction and does not exist at all?

Discuss.

How come some authors have e-mail addresses and others don't? Is that
intentional?

I think a reminder of the existence of Rick's news coverage page would be
good, especially for the benefit of new subscribers, and to remind people
that this event is still in the news.

(That might also prompt reporters on refund-news to believe that this
is true, prompting more articles, etc. News coverage, or the lack
thereof, is something of a vicious cycle; one might even say "a positive
feedback loop"...)

From owner-cabal-l-outgoing@rockhopper.deirdre.org Sun Feb 7 18:07:29 1999
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From: Seth David Schoen schoen@uclink4.berkeley.edu
To: cabal-l@windows-refund.org
Subject: [hreschak@eden.rutgers.edu: Re: refund- Professional design volunteer Re: regarding logo entry]
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To cabal-l again for more completeness; apologies to those who are getting
these twice.

----- Forwarded message from sum-1 hreschak@eden.rutgers.edu -----

Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 21:03:22 -0500
From: sum-1 hreschak@eden.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re: refund- Professional design volunteer Re: regarding logo entry

hi,

i just wanted to let you know that i have put a few preliminary page
banner-logo designs up for viewing and critique.

the original splash-screen-type banners are still available here:
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~hreschak/windows_refund/index.html

the new banner logo designs (468x60) are available here:
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~hreschak/windows_refund/index2.html

let me know what you all think...

sincerely,

andrew hreschak
hreschak@eden.rutgers.edu

----- End forwarded message -----

From owner-cabal-l-outgoing@rockhopper.deirdre.org Sun Feb 7 13:36:05 1999
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Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 16:29:35 -0500 (EST)
From: Jay Sulzberger jays@panix.com
To: cabal-l@windows-refund.org
cc: chris@netmonger.net, jgleason@electriclichen.com,
Jay Sulzberger jays@panix.com
Subject: SO MUCH PUBLICITY STUNT IT IS ALL OVER YOU SCREEN!!1!
In-Reply-To: v03007801b2e3d5592c6a@[165.254.214.26]
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SEND ME GIFS OF MARINA SIRTIS

ME TOO!

SUBSCIRBE

And in a related story:

The New York Refund Effort has two definite buyers for Refund Day. We
have not been able to get any response from Microsoft about doing the
whole process on their home ground, namely in some large room at their
New York headquarters on 50th Street and Eighth Avenue. I have argued
that if they let us do what we want in their room, they will have a better
chance to tell their side. Here is what we want to do:

1. Buyers take delivery of new machines with Microsoft OS already
loaded.

2. Buyers boot using a non-Microsoft OS boot disk.

3. Buyers remove every bit of the already loaded Microosft OS from the
machine.

4. Buyers swear affidavits, need a notary public here, that they have
never booted the Microsoft OS, and have not copied the Microosft OS, and
have removed every bit of the Microsoft OS from their machine, and are
returning to the OEM the disks and manuals of the unwanted and
will-not-pay-for OS, and request their refund as specified in the main
clause of the EULA. The affidavits, CDs and manuals, and a copy of the
EULA will be sent by each buyer using certified insured mail to his or her
OEM.

5. Buyers install, run, and connect to the net using their freely chosen
OS of choice!

We hope to have the news organizations record all of this, and also to
have on hand various government officials charged with helping oversee
consumer markets.

I think the big stick of Refund Day is the issue of consumer choice and
fundamental fairness to the consumer, and not directly the issue of the
"Microsoft monopoly", though it is only one step removed. Personal aside:
I blame the OEMs more than Microsoft. They should never have agreed to
per processor licenses circa 1988.

I suggest we declare a Second Refund day of 15 March 1999, at which we
report on the progress toward a freer market in OSes for the peecee, and
in the progress toward actual competition for government contracts for
servers and desktop machines too.

I have informally contacted the New York City Department of Consumer
Affairs and we hope this week to demonstrate for them a free OS running on
an intel x86 architecture peecee. (There is a story here, which I shall
tell soon.) They are in process of buying servers for a 200 machine lan
and I think I have persuaded them to only allow bids by hardware ompanies
that certify that their hardware is Free OS compliant, ie., no secret
interfaces that cause the hardware only to work with source secret
default-by-no-competition OSes. LXNY will shortly announce the Hardware
Initiative, one of whose efforts will be to get all governement purchase
orders for peecees to specify that the hardware must be Free OS compliant.
Anything else is radically anti-free-market.

I have been informed by the US Department of Justice that all material
realting to the 1995 consent decree, which required the present EULA's
main clause, should be addressed to Joel Klein, head of anti-trust at the
Department.

We should also contact the FTC.

I shall contact the New York State Attorney General tomorrow.

More later tonight, I am a mite pressed for time right now.

oo--JS.

Jay Sulzberger jays@panix.com

For purposes of identification and free advertising only:

Jay Sulzberger secretary@lxny.org
Corresponding Secretary LXNY
LXNY is New York's Free Computing Organization.
http://www.lxny.org

From bobami@email.com Sun Feb 7 00:45:19 1999
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Please don't tell anyone who told you. The son of a good friend of mine is Tony Claiborne, an intellectual property lawyer at Gateway. You might want to run a few questions past him. Interestingly enough, before he got his law degree he worked as a Unix techie.

Tony's email: claibant@gateway.com

I haven't checked it out lately, but Indelible Blue, the major non-IBM mail order distributor of OS/2 software sold (and probably still does) desktops and laptops preloaded with OS/2. Buck Bohack (founder, c.e.o., former Unix guy and U.N.C.phys. chem. doctoral candidate)told me how he accomplished this: Indelible Blue would pre-load hdd s with OS/2, ship them to DFI who'd install the drives and ship the machines to Indelible Blue for resale. With the general diminution of the OS/2 market, Indelible Blue branched out to address the Linux market and I'd hazard a guess Buck's selling Linux preloads these days.

I'll peek at Indelible's website now that I'm finished here.

Regards,

Bob Wersan

-----------------------------------------------
FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com
Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com

From deirdre@rockhopper.deirdre.org Sat Feb 6 01:38:12 1999
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From: Deirdre Saoirse deirdre@deirdre.net
Reply-To: deirdre@deirdre.net
To: rick@hugin.imat.com, dmarti@electriclichen.com
Subject: Do ya think I was too hard on the guy? Fwd: Re: [oclug] Misc. ideas
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I just got fed up with the lameness factor today. I don't know how I'm gonna
organize this since I was counting on Nathan's support.

Maybe I just need sleep. :(

::trundling back to bed::

---------- Forwarded Message ----------
Subject: Re: [oclug] Misc. ideas
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 00:53:18 -0800
From: Deirdre Saoirse deirdre@deirdre.net

On Fri, 05 Feb 1999, Nathan wrote:
>Im sooooo not up to turning this into a media event. You can if you want.

Look, there were concepts for *two* events. Two. Meaning one involving computer
stores (can we actually hold this *IN* Orange County since it's mostly OCLUG?),
and one involving Microsoft.

The whole *POINT* is to send a consistent message. That would mean doing
something similar to the events scheduled elsewhere around the world.

Like it or not, this HAS gotten world-wide attention. There are similar events
from New Zealand to France.

>While I am sorta the organizer of this thing I am still from Santa Cruz and
>beleive in empowering you all to take equal share of the um... "attention"
>(and the work). So while a press conference is a bit overboard, I dont mind
>anybody calling the press and telling them that we are going to be at the
>compusa in long beach at noon on the 15th handing out CDs. If they wanna
>show up and take some pictures, they can. Turning it into some kind of
>scandalous horror show is up to them, they blow things out of proportion
>better than anyone.

No, the point is to have the press at MICROSOFT on the 15th.

>I just want to hane out CDs, flyers, etc... and spread "Linux Awareness"
>while at the same time doing a bit of "under the table" windows bashing by
>informing people that its a free alternative and that they shouldnt have to
>pay for something they dont even use. Then they will be shown the petition
>to to get support for linux from computer system vendors. Thats it. Just
>shown it, not asked to sign, not pushed.

That's not the point of Windows Refund Day.

>Im afraid that if we do anything else we will get yelled at and kicked out
>by the CompUSA people.

<rant>
I'm afraid Orange County Lameness has taken over. ::sigh::

Sorry, but I was *really* impressed when I was up in Silicon Valley. There is a
vibrancy there that simply doesn't exist in Orange County. It's not the beige
curtain, it's the wet blanket....

Remember that this country's founders fought to the death for freedom of speech.
</rant>

--
_Deirdre * http://disclaimer.deirdre.org * http://www.deirdre.net
"Linux is a very complete and sophisticated operating system," said
[Paul] Maritz, Microsoft's group vice president for platforms and
applications. "There are and will be large numbers of applications
available for it."

From owner-cabal-l-outgoing@rockhopper.deirdre.org Fri Feb 5 14:57:06 1999
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Interesting message
--
Mark Bolzern mark@LinuxMall.com
Linux Mall --> is The Linux Superstore
http://www.LinuxMall.com mailto:info@LinuxMall.com
Phone: 303-693-3321 Fax: 303-699-2793
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--
Linux Mall, a division of WorkGroup Solutions, Inc.
The Linux Superstore
http://www.LinuxMall.com mailto:info@LinuxMall.com Tel: 303-699-7470
Orders: 800-234-7813 or 303-693-3321 Fax: 303-699-2793

--------------43A9E258313066CC2F4EE0D2
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I thought I might point out that Windows 98 users are also affected by this
'microsoft tax'.

The following steps occurred in my case :

1. I bought Windows 98 for the desktop
2. Found I needed NT - so I bought Windows NT for the desktop
3. Bought a new Toshiba laptop which I was going to install Windows 98 on.
4. Toshiba laptop comes with another copy of Windows 98.

Problem here - all the toshiba utilities and drivers are also on the same
Windows 98 CD-ROM compressed into one file.

SO I AM UNABLE TO GET A REFUND - AS I NEED THAT CDROM

So here sits one full retail copy of Windows 98 on my desk - not utilised
at all.

--------------43A9E258313066CC2F4EE0D2--

--------------32B3E2D4DFED6EBB83CD055A--

From owner-cabal-l-outgoing@rockhopper.deirdre.org Thu Feb 4 23:27:54 1999
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From: Roberto.Di.Cosmo@ens.fr (Roberto Di Cosmo)
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Hi there,
let me just say how impressed I am by the speed and size
the movement has taken (even in France, in 2 days, more then 2000
visitors *before* a major press coverage).

We are looking in details into the legal aspects of the issue
here: actually, whether the sale of a PC+Windows can be
considered tying, etc. etc.

I'll try to summarize for you in the next few days, but
basically our position now is to ask the OEM for money
and push them to recover they money from MS: we think
several bodies here (like the FTC in the US) could
help. Did anybody get an answer on these issues from the FTC yet?

All the best

--Roberto

From bedlam@bedlam-institute.org Thu Feb 4 21:29:12 1999
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I am a user of linux on the powerPC but would like to support the efforts
of Intel users.
My feeling is: Give the Penguin What's Due.

I would like to help but I need more details on start time, projected event
length and so forth as Feb 15 is a "floating holiday" at my company and I
will have to ask for time off and all.
thanks
Edwin

------------------------------------------------------------------
Edwin Allen Bish II
bedlam@bedlam-institute.org

From owner-cabal-l-outgoing@rockhopper.deirdre.org Thu Feb 4 19:22:22 1999
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Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 19:17:56 -0800
From: Seth David Schoen schoen@uclink4.berkeley.edu
To: cabal-l@windows-refund.org
Subject: Re: Refunds direct
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Dr Anand Venkataraman writes:

> How does the manufacturer determine what price the customer paid for
> the item through the agent?

Well, that's up to them. Then they can have a lawsuit over whether this
price is "reasonable".

Microsoft should have been more specific in writing their EULA, but they
weren't, so that's a bit of a problem for them -- not for consumers!

If I advertise that I will offer something, and someone doesn't think that
I provided what I offered, I can be sued. Therefore, Microsoft should
make sure that the refunds that are provided are either satisfactory to
the customers or legally defensible as reasonable. For instance, they
could represent the current "fair market value" of a non-bundled copy of
the product, which would satisfy most customers, lawyers, and courts.

I believe that this approximately $100 US right now, but you could check
a current local catalog to find a price. Some people in the US said that
they would ask for "enough money for a copy of Linux"; I forgot the
original source of that idea. :-)

From owner-cabal-l-outgoing@rockhopper.deirdre.org Thu Feb 4 19:18:48 1999
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Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 19:14:07 -0800
From: Seth David Schoen schoen@uclink4.berkeley.edu
To: cabal-l@windows-refund.org
Subject: Re: Refunds direct
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Dr Anand Venkataraman writes:

> On the point of returning an item to an agent vs returning it
> to the manufacturer, I have the following confusion.
>
> How does the manufacturer determine what price the customer paid for
> the item through the agent?
>
> Can this be used as an argument against a customer's right to
> return an item to the manufacturer?
>
> If I bought a panasonic stereo through Frys, can I NOT return
> it directly to Panasonic. Am I constrained by only being able
> to return it to Frys?

Rick Moen has already had to argue this point with dozens of people, some
at Microsoft (by proxy), and some in the public or the news media, so
I probably ought to defer to him or to his existing postings and web
sites about this topic.

But here's my version (which I know has some differences from Rick's):

The software license agreement in question is between Microsoft and the
end user. In this license, Microsoft asserts that one can return the
product to the Manufacturer, etc. This does not mean that the legal
agreement is between the Manufacturer and the user. It only means that
the Manufacturer is (according to Microsoft) supposed to be the point of
contact for the refund Microsoft is promising will be available.

Users _SHOULD_ either attempt to contact their OEMs or attempt to verify
specifically that their OEMs are unco-operative. If a user just contacts
Microsoft without the support of any evidence to the effect that OEMs are
refusing to honor the refund offer, Microsoft can justifiably tell them
to take up the issue with them OEMs.

However, if a user has attempted to follow Microsoft's own directions
(to return the product to the Manufacturer), and the Manufacturer has not
co-operated as Microsoft's license led the customer to expect, the customer
has a right to complain and to seek Microsoft's help in obtaining this
refund.

So my position is that the refund request to Microsoft should be phrased
in the following terms:

I (we), in an attempt to follow exactly the terms of my legal
agreement with Microsoft, contacted my Manufacturer _____________
and requested a refund. However, my Manufacturer professed
unfamiliarity with this offer/specifically refused to honor this
offer.

Alternately, I am relying on a published news story in _____________
or an official statement from my Manufacturer dated ____________ to
the effect that my Manufacturer is unfamiliar with the refund offer
or unwilling to offer me a refund.

Since the refund offer is described as an element of the End-User
License Agreement, which is presented as an legal agreement offered
to me by Microsoft, I request and expect Microsoft's assistance in
obtaining such a refund, either from Microsoft itself, or, with
Microsoft's assistance, from my Manufacturer.

Because the agreement which was intended by Microsoft to license
a copy of __________________ to me was between Microsoft and myself,
not between myself and any other party, Microsoft has an obligation
to ensure that the terms of this agreement are honored.

This agreement provided me with a specific remedy in case I was
unwilling to consent to one or another of its terms. Specifically,
I am unwilling to consent to _______________________, and have
therefore chosen to exercise this remedy, which I expect Microsoft
to guarantee will be honored. If Microsoft does not honor this
remedy or cause my Manufacturer to honor this remedy, I will consider
Microsoft to have breached its agreement with me.

Of course, this is intended to be a sample explanation of one position users
might want to take in requesting a refund, _not_ the exact text of a letter
to Microsoft.

I do think it is important that users should either try to get a refund
through their OEMs, or else satisfy themselves that this is impossible,
before contacting Microsoft. This prevents Microsoft from asserting that
they must contact their OEMs: they can then respond "I did!" or something
similar.

In answer to your question, the manufacturer (not the same as the
"Manufacturer" in the EULA, which is the OEM, not Microsoft, and which
I was talking about above!) is supposedly warranting/agreeing that the
agent is going to perform a particular action. If the consumer learns
that the agent is unwilling to perform that action, the consumer should
resort to the manufacturer to ask why not or to get the manufacturer's
help in making sure that the action will take place.

Let's say I sell you a lava lamp with a piece of paper that says "Seth's
Lava Lamp 99 -- If you don't like the color of this lava lamp, you should
promptly bring it to the nearest University campus to have the color
altered for free". You don't like the color of the lava lamp, so you
take it to a University, and they say "Sorry, we can't modify this lava
lamp; we're under no obligation to do so." Now, you have ever right to
take the lava lamp back to me and complain that I said the University
would modify the lava lamp, and they didn't, so you expect me to do it
instead or otherwise make sure that somebody will modify the color.

Sure, the OEM is the agent of Microsoft, but they sold you something which
came with an agreement from Microsoft, and (if they were authorized by
Microsoft to do so!) Microsoft had better honor the terms of that agreement.

IANAL. TASNBCALA. YMMV.

From owner-cabal-l-outgoing@rockhopper.deirdre.org Thu Feb 4 18:54:53 1999
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From: Dr Anand Venkataraman A.Raman@massey.ac.nz
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On the point of returning an item to an agent vs returning it
to the manufacturer, I have the following confusion.

How does the manufacturer determine what price the customer paid for
the item through the agent?

Can this be used as an argument against a customer's right to
return an item to the manufacturer?

If I bought a panasonic stereo through Frys, can I NOT return
it directly to Panasonic. Am I constrained by only being able
to return it to Frys?

Thanks.

- &

From owner-cabal-l-outgoing@rockhopper.deirdre.org Thu Feb 4 19:38:46 1999
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Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 20:06:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Matt Jensen mattj@thenoodle.com
To: Dr Anand Venkataraman A.Raman@massey.ac.nz
cc: cabal-l@windows-refund.org
Subject: Re: Conversations with Microsoft
In-Reply-To: 199902050245.PAA06408@smis-tararua.massey.ac.nz
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Your MS person seems to be denying the validity of ANY refund, whether
from MS or from an OEM. This contradicts what other (U.S.) MS people have
been quoted as saying. The U.S. Microsoft position seems to be "Yes, you
CAN get a refund, but you have to go through your OEM." You might point
this out to your local MS people.

(You can find the stories in the linuxmall.com or linuxmafia.com sites, I
forget just now which stories they are.)

-Matt

On Fri, 5 Feb 1999, Dr Anand Venkataraman wrote:

> ...
> As of now, the present state of affairs is that MS has categorically
> asserted that it will refuse refunds in NZ (and also the rest of the
> world from what he told me).

From owner-cabal-l-outgoing@rockhopper.deirdre.org Thu Feb 4 18:48:13 1999
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First of all, please excuse the disconnected nature of this
emial message since I'm in a hurry to do a number of things at
present and I have to get going.

The NZ Microsoft Marketing manager just phoned me from Auckland and
we had quite a lengthy conversation in which he tried every possible
means to dissuade me from hosting the website.

He also accused me of misleading the public by saying that they may be
entitled to a refund because "MS will steadfastly refuse to give out
any refund to people for returned products". Well I told him that
legally speaking I'm not misleading people since the page says "if you
are a user of .... you *MAY* be entitled to a refund..." Whether ms
gives out the refund or not is irrelevant.

He also said that it was not Microsoft's issue and that people should
take their products back to the OEMs to return the whole system.

My response to this was that we were going to go to MS and ask for a
refund first as first point of call and if they refuse, then consumers
will be urged by UniForum to seek a refund for the whole system from
the OEMs.

His repeated assertion was that "Customers don't have a right to
DISASSEMBLE a product they boughjt and return just one component of
it. He repeatedly used the analogy of buying a ford car and returning
just its stereo system."

My response was that If the ford car came with a panasonic stereo which
had ITS OWN LICENSE AGREEMENT and asked people to return it for a refund
if they didn't agree, then they are quite at liberty to do so.

He said that the Stereo must be returned to Ford and not to Panasonic.

I said that "No the customer has the right to return an item to its
original manufacturer as well. and so he/she could approach panasonic
justifiably."

He didn't agree.

As of now, the present state of affairs is that MS has categorically
asserted that it will refuse refunds in NZ (and also the rest of the
world from what he told me).

But UniForum sees no need to make changes to the website as we will
ask people to seek redress from OEMs in that case.

Have others have any such experiences or phonecalls?

- &

From KerrieannP@aol.com Thu Feb 4 18:42:03 1999
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I just wanted to offer my moral support being across the country from you and
will not be able to join you. I will be checking back to your website to see
how it went and if people were able to get their refunds.

From owner-svlug@svlug.svlug.org Thu Feb 4 20:45:20 1999
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I just joined to ask this question.

I think I read in the paper that Linux users were declaring a
get-a-refund-from-Microsoft day. To participate I bring my laptop,
which came with windows but was immediately wiped out for linux, and
demand money.

Is this really happening?

Marilyn Davis
marilyn@deliberate.com

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From owner-crackmonkey@zork.net Thu Feb 4 13:46:09 1999
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Here is the URL to my E-Mail discussion wit DELL for a possible Windows
refund or exchange.

http://staff.adams.edu/~cdmiller/DELL/winref.html

Feel free to publish a link to it or the full text.

- cameron

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From owner-cabal-l-outgoing@rockhopper.deirdre.org Thu Feb 4 11:17:47 1999
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To: Mark Bolzern Mark@LinuxMall.com
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Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Fwd: Windows Refund Day - Great initiative - and a couple of questions]]
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::changed followups to list::

In the case of a demo unit, clearly there is acceptance by the dealer.

In the case of anything else, no.

I doubt that this would be an issue that held up in court; if so, it would
be a REALLY interesting legal battle and a huge restraint of trade issue
in the US.

_Deirdre * http://disclaimer.deirdre.org * http://www.deirdre.net
"Linux is a very complete and sophisticated operating system," said
[Paul] Maritz, Microsoft's group vice president for platforms and
applications. "There are and will be large numbers of applications
available for it."

From owner-cabal-l@windows-refund.org Thu Feb 4 07:37:00 1999
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Welcome to the cabal-l mailing list!

Please save this message for future reference. Thank you.

If you ever want to remove yourself from this mailing list,
send the following command in email to
cabal-l-request@windows-refund.org:

unsubscribe

Or you can send mail to Majordomo@windows-refund.org with the following
command in the body of your email message:

unsubscribe cabal-l

or from another account, besides rick@hugin.imat.com:

unsubscribe cabal-l rick@hugin.imat.com

If you ever need to get in contact with the owner of the list,
(if you have trouble unsubscribing, or have questions about the
list itself) send email to owner-cabal-l@windows-refund.org .
This is the general rule for most mailing lists when you need
to contact a human.

Here's the general information for the list you've subscribed to,
in case you don't already have it:

This list is for those who are organizing Windows Refund Day events

From Mark@LinuxMall.com Thu Feb 4 07:23:10 1999
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To: Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com
CC: Dr Anand Venkataraman A.Raman@massey.ac.nz,
Seth David Schoen schoen@uclink4.berkeley.edu,
Matt Jensen mattj@thenoodle.com,
Deirdre Saoirse deirdre@deirdre.net, Jeff Loomis jal@briar.net,
Nick Moffitt nick@zork.net, Don Marti dmarti@electriclichen.com,
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Rik van Riel riel@nl.linux.org,
Jim Gleason jgleason@electriclichen.com
Subject: Re: Updates
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Thanks Rick,

It's a testimony to the efficiency of our virtual world that we don't
really have to know where everyone is. But a point of accuracy:

Matt Jensen who started the Windows refund center, and his site
thenoodle.com are in Seattle, Washington. Mark Bolzern and the
LinuxMall.com, LinuxNews.net, and PenguinPower.com sites are in Aurora,
Colorado (Denver) and carry the Refund Center home page (as listed
below), which in turn is a central place that links to all the other
resources and makes a good place to refer someone to to start reading.

Thanks
Mark

Rick Moen wrote:
>
> Dear Dr Venkataraman:
>
> This note is just to introduce you to your fellow Windows Refund Day
> conspirators, and let them know what you've accomplished in New
> Zealand. (Therefore, I have included your two e-mails at the end.)
>
> Matt Jensen created the original Windows Refund Day Web site, which
> subsequently was transferred to Mark Bolzern's
> http://www.LinuxMall.com/refund/ site (Seattle). Don Marti of San
> Francisco is an open-source consultant and programmer, among other
> talents. Nick Moffitt of San Francisco is editor of the Windows
> Refund Newsletter, http://zork.net/refund/, and works for SuSE,
> publishers of a Linux distribution. I'm a WAN/LAN consultant in
> San Francisco, and run the San Francisco Bay Area Windows Refund
> Day site. Deirdre Saoirse of Irvine, California and Jeff Loomis
> created the Southern California site,
> http://www.deirdre.org/rebellion.html
>
> Jim Gleason and volunteers from the New York Linux user group LXNY
> created the New York City site, http://www.netmonger.net/~onr/refund.html
> He is partner with Don Marti of Electric Lichen, LLC, an open-source
> consulting firm. Roberto Di Cosmo is a noted author and creator
> of the Centre de Detaxe Windows,
> http://www.dmi.ens.fr/~dicosmo/Detaxe/detaxe.html. I note with
> special pleasure that the francophone Linux group, AFUL, has become
> involved and has created a mailing list.
>
> Seth David Schoen is a student at University of California at
> Berkeley, and author of our press release. Rik van Riel is organiser
> of the Dutch-language effort for the Netherlands and Flanders.
>
> I will be replying to your questions to me, separately. Meanwhile,
> welcome to the initiative!
>
> --
> Cheers, When encryption is outlawed,
> Rick Moen only outlaws will xr2d3fsxd df#$%xx`
> rick (at) hugin.imat.com
>
> >From: Dr Anand Venkataraman A.Raman@massey.ac.nz
> To: rick@hugin.imat.com
> Subject: Updates
> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 13:48:50 +1300
>
> Dear Rick
>
> Just to update you on developments:
>
> 1. I have organised a room in Wellington city for non-users of Windows
> and sympathetic observers to gather and mingle. I have also arranged
> for some nibbles, wine and cheese by deciding to sponsor this event
> via UniForum NZ (the NZ chapter of the non-profit Open Systems group).
>
> 2. I scheduled it for 4pm on Monday 15th so that people can come
> around after work. The event will take place approximately 1 day
> before it does in the USA (since NZ is about 20 hours ahead of PST).
>
> 3. I am co-ordinating with the major newspapers and computer/magazines
> for some press coverage of the event.
>
> 4. I will be contacting TVNZ shortly to see if they can give us a few
> minutes' coverage on news.
>
> 5. I presume that the default position, unless I hear from you, the
> newsletter or other source to the contrary is for UniForum NZ Inc to
> collect verified packs of Windows and names/addresses of the people
> who submit them, take them to the Microsoft office on the 16th and
> request refunds on their behalf.
>
> Do let me know if this is going along the lines you had envisioned.
> I will email you the URL of the NZ windows refund site soon.
> It will probably be http://www.uniforum.org.nz/windowsrefund/
>
> Cheers.
>
> - &
>
> >From: Dr Anand Venkataraman A.Raman@massey.ac.nz
> To: rick@hugin.imat.com
> Subject: Updates
> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:36:39 +1300
>
> Dear Rick
>
> Have you received my previous email messages.
>
> Just to update you on happenings here which are happening on
> schedule so far.
>
> 1. The refund site web page is now up. Due to time constraints, I have
> taken the liberty of making an almost exact copy of the bay area page.
> Hope that's ok. Kindly do visit the page and link to it.
>
> 2. I have co-ordinated with media to get publicity regarding the NZ
> event.
>
> Please also update me on the mechanics of the situation. Or is
> it up the to the local organisers. Do I personally collect the
> software and deliver to Microsoft on behalf of the people who
> return them? I certainly can't lead a march to Microsoft house.
>
> I look forward to your comments.
>
> Thanks.
>
> - &

--
Mark Bolzern mark@LinuxMall.com
Linux Mall --> is The Linux Superstore
http://www.LinuxMall.com mailto:info@LinuxMall.com
Phone: 303-693-3321 Fax: 303-699-2793

From richard@fireplug.net Wed Feb 3 22:35:08 1999
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From: Richard Pitt richard@fireplug.net
Subject: Windows Refund - I'm likely to appear on local (Canadian) TV
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As one of the locally known Internet and now Linux spokespeople, I'm
talking to one of the producers of CTV's national "Digital Desk" program
regarding the Windows Refund phenomenon. I've been looking over all the
items on your web site at http://www.linuxmall.com/refund and am impressed.
This not only is an excellent movement, it also highlights the speed that
the Internet has brought to such a consumer movement.

Thanks for your work on this - hope we here in Canada can help. I've been
selling Unix (and now Linux) systems to my customers for 20+ years, and
since the PC came along I've been more than annoyed that all of the
machines have cost more for the completely useless Dos/Windows OS that came
with them. To be sure, most times up until recently I've had to use a copy
of Dos to start the install procedure, but with the now "free" DR Dos even
this is not necessary - and now that we have bootable Linux CD's and such
it's completely unnecessary to use Microsoft's product.

Looking forward to the 15th.

richard
-
Richard C. Pitt President/C.E.O.
FirePlug Computers Inc. WWW.FIREPLUG.NET
Voice: 604-644-9265 E-Mail: richard@fireplug.net
Fax: 604-465-2666 Consulting to ISPs since 1986
Plug and Play Firewalls Internet Facilities and Management

From A.Raman@massey.ac.nz Wed Feb 3 21:43:58 1999
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From: Dr Anand Venkataraman A.Raman@massey.ac.nz
To: rick@hugin.imat.com
In-reply-to: 19990203175441.B22354@hugin.imat.com (message from Rick Moen on Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:54:41 -0800)
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Dear Rick

Thanks for your feedback. Ok, I will go ahead as we had originally
planned and use my call on specific details.

Do give my regards to Eric Raymond; we met at the UniForum conference
in Ocean City, MD last year.

I believe I've now fixed the web page to use NZ language, but then the
links from it into US pages will still contain American English of course.

*NEW* I've also added a link to the page on "whether the event is
relevant to NZ."

Regarding the target audience, I believe that there is a very strong
Linux community in the Asia Pacific region. In any case, however,
I've included the Windows/NT as well in the list of OSes that people
may alternatively use.

>You have a "timeline" link to
>http://www.uniforum.org.nz/windowsrefund/coverage.html, which

I've fixed this.

>If you elect to present products to Microsoft for refund,
>you must consider what (if anything) you intend to do if they
>turn you away and refer you to the OEMs. Since our local
>effort is primarily a PR (public relations) one, we aren't
>terribly concerned over whether Microsoft accepts the returns

Likewise here.

>This especially might become an issue given your sponsorship
>by UniForum. If memory serves, isn't UniForum partly or
>mostly concerned with proprietary Unixes?

No. UniForum is concerned with Open Source and Open Systems now.
Richard Stallman is the keynote speaker in the April Conference.

Cheers.

Talk to you soon.

- &

From deirdre@deirdre.net Wed Feb 3 17:24:17 1999
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Subject: Re: Updates
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BTW, Jeff Loomis has nothing to do with my page or the OC effort. He's
offering to do the LA event. One county to the north. LA/OC people get
kinda bent out of shape being mistaken for each other. :)

How about a little mailing list for refund-cabal for those active in the
refund effort (setting up sites and demos) and another for refund-press ?

From rbharani@cisco.com Wed Feb 3 09:48:11 1999
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Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 09:47:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Rakesh Bharania rbharani@cisco.com
To: bofh@linuxmafia.com
Subject: Refund day: what time?
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Rick -

We know it'll be on the 15th, but at what time? Or is that TBA?

--
---
Rakesh Bharania
"The Cosmic Armadillo"
CE - Network Security/Cisco Systems TAC

Voice : (408) 526-5981
E-Mail: rakesh@cisco.com
Again : rbharani@cisco.com

From rlbaker@hightidetech.com Wed Feb 3 00:04:24 1999
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To whom it may concern,
I am interested in helping to coordinte the refund effort in Foster
City. Please let me know if you need my help. I will be seeking a
refund myself on at least a dozen systems. I work for Sun Microsystems
and fully support open source OSs to be optionally preloaded on OEM
machines.

Sincerely, Rob

From rlbaker@hightidetech.com Fri Feb 5 20:49:08 1999
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Subject: Re: The Windows refund event...
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> By the way, we've heard from a contractor working at Sun who is trying
> to organise Solaris x86 users, either officially or semi-officially
> through Sun. (We're not sure.) If you weren't aware of this, we'll
> be glad to put you in touch with her.
>
Hey Rick. Thanks for getting back to me so quickly. I was not aware of
anyone at sun already involved in this effort. Please let me know her
name and I will be glad to coordinate efforts with her. I would also
like to see if I can gather all of our NT licenses up and regain some or
our capitalization costs from ordering machines with NT preinstalled
frome Dell.

> Our _specific_ effort (at http://linuxmafia.com/refund/ is among and
> by a group of users of open-source OSes (*BSD and Linux), but we're
> making every effort to share information and Web links with users of
> proprietary OSes, as well. If you (and/or this contractor) put up
> a Web site for the effort, that would be an excellent first step.
>
I will put up an internal site over the weekend, and send out some email
to get the word out.

> (The Windows Refund Newsletter site, http://zork.net/refund/, and
> most of the others including http://www.linuxmall.com/refund/, are
> _not_ open-source-specific efforts.
>
> --
> Cheers, Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based,
> Rick Moen not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed,
> rick (at) linuxmafia.com modern-American-English-usage-improvement association

-Rob

From rlbaker@hightidetech.com Tue Feb 2 23:59:15 1999
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Hi Rick,
I was wondering what our options are for refunds where MS Software was
preloaded, and no original disks were sent with the system. I don't
even think I received a certificate of authenticity. Many computers
nowadays don't even come with the media for the OS, which is almost as
bad as preloading MS to start with. I work for Sun Microsystems and
have had to strip many PCs down, so it would be nice to learn how we can
recover costs of being taxed for an unused, CERTAINLY unwanted OS.

Thanks, Rob

From nick@zork.net Tue Feb 2 17:33:38 1999
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Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 17:37:35 -0800
From: Nick Moffitt nick@zork.net
To: rick@hugin.imat.com, Seth David Schoen schoen@zork.net,
dmarti@electriclichen.com, deirdre@deirdre.org, mark@linuxmall.com,
matt@thenoodle.com
Subject: [nick@zork.net: Re: Windows Refund Day]
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I just got through responding to this Australian reporter, and
figured you folks might be interested.

----- Forwarded message from Nick Moffitt nick@zork.net -----

On Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 12:09:22PM +1100, Murphy, Kerrie wrote:
> I'm Kerrie Murphy a journalist with The Australian newspaper. I'm
> doing a story on the Windows Refund Day and I was forwarded the
> release about efforts in the Bay Area.
>
> I was hoping you'd be able to answer a couple of questions for my
> article.

I would be more than happy to! I know that this has been
covered a lot in the Fairfax IT News. Is your publication called "The
Australian"?

> Do you have any indication how many people will be requesting a
> refund in your area on feb 15?

It's difficult to say, since we don't have an official
register. Anyone who wishes to arrive is welcome, and there may be
more groups represented at the Foster City offices on that day. We
are a group of open source enthusiasts, but there may be groups
representing OS/2 users, BeOS users, and even Windows NT users!

> Given that the EULA says Windows can be returned to the vendor and
> not Microsoft and that MS maintain the EULA is entirely separate
> from them, what reaction are you expecting from Microsoft? Do you
> think you will get your money back or is it more to register a
> protest at the lack of choice of OS when buying a PC?

We are going to Microsoft in good faith expecting a refund.
According to the End User License Agreement, there is no indication
that Microsoft will refuse. The vendors are really agents of
Microsoft as far as refunds are concerned, so we're saving everyone
time and effort by going directly to Microsoft. Remember: the EULA is
between the user and Microsoft, not the user and the vendor.

> The release stresses that this is not necessarily a 'get Microsoft"
> campaign, just a call for OS choice, are you concerned that it will
> turn into mere MS bashing?

The scope of this effort doesn't even extend as far as a call
for OS choice. As a matter of fact, many among us see it as an
already-won in that respect. After all, we have been paying Microsoft
for software we don't use for quite some time, and only recently have
we realized that Microsoft was prepared to give us a refund from the
start!

This isn't about "Windows sucks", and right now it isn't even
a complaint about OS choice. If anything, it's a celebration of the
choice we already have. It isn't in anyone's interest (including
Microsoft!) for our requests for refunds to be denied. February 15th
should be a fun time for all involved!

While we (The Linux Mafia A.K.A. the Consortium of All Bay
Area Linux (CABAL)) have been organizing the Feburary 15th event as
far as local information goes, we also provide a newsletter at
http://www.zork.net/refund/ (this was featured in the San Francisco
Chronicle at
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1999/01/28/BU74183.DTL
as well as in the paper edition). Apologies for the long line.

Please feel free to contact me if you have any further
questions or Rick Moen at rick@hugin.imat.com .

Also, a timeline of press coverage is available at
http://linuxmafia.com/refund/coverage.html including Australian,
English, and Japanese coverage of refund issues. The timeline
includes short summaries of the articles and reads as an excellent
stand-alone outline.

--
* Progress (n.): The process through which Usenet has evolved from
smart people in front of dumb terminals to dumb people in front of
smart terminals. -- obs@burnout.demon.co.uk (obscurity)

----- End forwarded message -----

--
* Progress (n.): The process through which Usenet has evolved from
smart people in front of dumb terminals to dumb people in front of
smart terminals. -- obs@burnout.demon.co.uk (obscurity)

From Michael.Martinez@infoseek.com Tue Feb 2 11:33:19 1999
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Gentlemen,
Mark Bolzern said you folks would be good to talk to regarding
Windows Refund Day. I'm a reporter for ABCNEWS.com doing a story on this
very interesting phenomenon, and I was hoping to chat with you about your
experiences and goals. Please feel free to call or e-mail so we can set
something up. And if you have suggestions on other to talk to, please let me
know. Many thanks.

Michael Martinez
Associate Producer
ABCNEWS.com
425-468-4327
*****
"A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human
history, with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila." -- Mitch
Ratcliffe, Technology Review, April 1992

From hreschak@eden.rutgers.edu Sun Feb 7 18:04:38 1999
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Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 21:03:22 -0500
From: sum-1 hreschak@eden.rutgers.edu
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To: Mark Bolzern Mark@LinuxMall.com
CC: TheNoodle Site Administrator admin@www.thenoodle.com,
Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com,
Seth DavidSchoen schoen@uclink4.Berkeley.EDU,
Deirdre Saoirse deirdre@deirdre.net, jal@briar.net, nick@zork.net,
dmarti@electriclichen.com
Subject: Re: refund- Professional design volunteer Re: regarding logo entry
References: Pine.LNX.3.95.990122092935.24993K-100000@www.thenoodle.com 36A90317.F89D7F36@eden.rutgers.edu 36AFC886.DD829AD2@eden.rutgers.edu 36B71893.210C11DF@LinuxMall.com
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hi,

i just wanted to let you know that i have put a few preliminary page
banner-logo designs up for viewing and critique.

the original splash-screen-type banners are still available here:
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~hreschak/windows_refund/index.html

the new banner logo designs (468x60) are available here:
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~hreschak/windows_refund/index2.html

let me know what you all think...

sincerely,

andrew hreschak
hreschak@eden.rutgers.edu

From hreschak@eden.rutgers.edu Tue Feb 2 08:04:08 1999
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Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 11:02:26 -0500
From: sum-1 hreschak@eden.rutgers.edu
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To: Mark Bolzern Mark@LinuxMall.com
CC: TheNoodle Site Administrator admin@www.thenoodle.com,
Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com,
Seth DavidSchoen schoen@uclink4.Berkeley.EDU,
Deirdre Saoirse deirdre@deirdre.net, jal@briar.net, nick@zork.net,
dmarti@electriclichen.com
Subject: Re: refund- Professional design volunteer Re: regarding logo entry
References: Pine.LNX.3.95.990122092935.24993K-100000@www.thenoodle.com 36A90317.F89D7F36@eden.rutgers.edu 36AFC886.DD829AD2@eden.rutgers.edu 36B71893.210C11DF@LinuxMall.com
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mark,

in regards to taking long to respond... not a problem. i just wasn't
sure if you had decided not to use my designs and had possibly
overlooked mentioning that fact to me. :) i understand you must be
swamped with work at the moment.
the designs that incorporate a dropshadow effect utilize colors outside
of the standard 'web-safe' palette. hence, the dropshadows may appear
somewhat blurred and dithered. you may be safest going with one of the
designs that do not incorporate a dropshadow, if that is a major
concern, as it should be.
i can certainly scale your final decision down to a standard banner size
as well, for use as a logo/banner at the top of a webpage, somewhat like
a letterhead on paper.
as for the disclaimer information, that is only a matter of inserting
some text into the graphic, which will be no problem whatsoever. bear in
mind though, that small text becomes easily blurred when viewed in a
web-browser. i'll work on some revisions and have them available for
everyone to see soon. would it not be possible to insert only an
asterisk (*) in the graphic, and the actual disclaimer text beneath the
graphic, or at the bottom of the page, in standard html text, referenced
by that asterisk...? anyway, i'll have some revisions up soon.

(should i send the webpage with the revisions to all the addresses on
this list, or just to mark?)

sincerely,

andrew hreschak
hreschak@eden.rutgers.edu

Mark Bolzern wrote:
>
> Sorry it has taken so long to respond, I just don't have any free time.
>
> I think I like the third one down the best, but would choose the second
> one based on a combination of look/feel and file size. They all do look
> professional (some a bit fuzzy), and they do make the point.
>
> It does need to say that we are not a project of (independent of)
> Microsoft and that "Microsoft & Windows" are trademarks of MS. If it is
> used on just the home page, then it can say this in text below the
> graphic, however when used as a banner it cannot. Having a banner click
> through to the home page, might or might not be sufficient (anyone
> know?).
>
> Unfortunately there is no graphic involved
>
> Finally, there somehow needs to be a standard banner size version
> (468x60) of whatever we end up with.
>
> Anyone else care to take charge?
>
> Mark
>
> sum-1 wrote:
> >
> > hello again,
> >
> > i have put a few "rough" drafts online at the address listed below.
> > please bear in mind that the seven designs listed on that page took a
> > little less than an hour to produce. i have kept them as simple as
> > possible, while maintaining an aesthetically pleasing design layout. i
> > would suggest these designs as a possible splash screen before entrance
> > to the main part of the site, as they are not designed in the standard
> > header-logo format.
> >
> > i understand what you have said regarding not having the time to
> > actively seek out a suitable logo. allow me to reiterate the fact that i
> > am willing to produce a logo for your refund effort, and i am willing to
> > do so free of charge. just give me feedback on these designs, and i'll
> > work up a logo to your satisfaction. the only thing i would ask, should
> > you choose to use a logo that i design, is for you to acknowledge me as
> > the designer... mention my name and an email link somewhere on your page
> > (small print is fine). but, let me repeat, i'm *not* looking for any
> > monetary compensation.
> >
> > if you're looking for a completely different design scheme, don't
> > hesitate to say so.
> >
> > sincerely,
> >
> > andrew hreschak
> > hreschak@eden.rutgers.edu
> >
> > the designs can be seen here:
> > http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~hreschak/windows_refund/index.html
> >
> > sum-1 wrote:
> > >
> > > hello,
> > >
> > > i'm wondering if it would be possible to be provided with a link to the
> > > logo entries you have received thus far, or to have them sent to me via
> > > email...? i'm curious to see the quality of work submitted up to this
> > > point. furthermore, i have a question regarding design... you are
> > > looking for a logo for the webpage which will hold information on this
> > > issue, correct...? or are you looking for a logo for letterhead, etc...
> > > i need to have an idea of size constraints, etc...
> > >
> > > thanks,
> > >
> > > andrew hreschak
> > > hreschak@eden.rutgers.edu
> > >
> > > TheNoodle Site Administrator wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Thanks Andrew,
> > > > I'm sending this on to Linux Mall. Given the ... "range" of logos seen
> > > > so far, I think they'll appreciate knowing about your offer of
> > > > professional design skills. Later,
> > > >
> > > > -Matt
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, sum-1 wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > okay, anyway, let me know if you would, what you decide to do about the
> > > > > logo and name. i'm a graphic artist by trade and would love to be
> > > > > involved in something like this.
> > > > >
> > > > > sincerely,
> > > > >
> > > > > andrew hreschak
> > > > > hreschak@eden.rutgers.edu
> > > > >
> > > > > (i have a university account because i do consulting work for rutgers
> > > > > university. it's my most often checked account.)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > TheNoodle Site Administrator wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > (They eventually did get a trademark for the word "Windows" all by
> > > > > > itself.)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, sum-1 wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > i was thinking about this after i sent it to you, and i may be wrong...
> > > > > > > it may be that the trademarked name is 'windows 95' or 'windows nt'
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > i'm not at all sure about this, but it seems like something to consider
> > > > > > > if you plan to have people design logos for a campaign that is, in
> > > > > > > essence, out to slam microsoft... now, if you wanted to call it
> > > > > > > something like 'the micro$oft refund center'.. you kill two birds with
> > > > >
>
> --
> Mark Bolzern mark@LinuxMall.com
> Linux Mall --> is The Linux Superstore
> http://www.LinuxMall.com mailto:info@LinuxMall.com
> Phone: 303-693-3321 Fax: 303-699-2793

From Mark@LinuxMall.com Tue Feb 2 07:24:02 1999
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From: Mark Bolzern Mark@LinuxMall.com
Organization: Linux Mall
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To: sum-1 hreschak@eden.rutgers.edu
CC: TheNoodle Site Administrator admin@www.thenoodle.com,
Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com,
Seth DavidSchoen schoen@uclink4.Berkeley.EDU,
Deirdre Saoirse deirdre@deirdre.net, jal@briar.net, nick@zork.net,
dmarti@electriclichen.com
Subject: Re: refund- Professional design volunteer Re: regarding logo entry
References: Pine.LNX.3.95.990122092935.24993K-100000@www.thenoodle.com 36A90317.F89D7F36@eden.rutgers.edu 36AFC886.DD829AD2@eden.rutgers.edu
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Sorry it has taken so long to respond, I just don't have any free time.

I think I like the third one down the best, but would choose the second
one based on a combination of look/feel and file size. They all do look
professional (some a bit fuzzy), and they do make the point.

It does need to say that we are not a project of (independent of)
Microsoft and that "Microsoft & Windows" are trademarks of MS. If it is
used on just the home page, then it can say this in text below the
graphic, however when used as a banner it cannot. Having a banner click
through to the home page, might or might not be sufficient (anyone
know?).

Unfortunately there is no graphic involved

Finally, there somehow needs to be a standard banner size version
(468x60) of whatever we end up with.

Anyone else care to take charge?

Mark

sum-1 wrote:
>
> hello again,
>
> i have put a few "rough" drafts online at the address listed below.
> please bear in mind that the seven designs listed on that page took a
> little less than an hour to produce. i have kept them as simple as
> possible, while maintaining an aesthetically pleasing design layout. i
> would suggest these designs as a possible splash screen before entrance
> to the main part of the site, as they are not designed in the standard
> header-logo format.
>
> i understand what you have said regarding not having the time to
> actively seek out a suitable logo. allow me to reiterate the fact that i
> am willing to produce a logo for your refund effort, and i am willing to
> do so free of charge. just give me feedback on these designs, and i'll
> work up a logo to your satisfaction. the only thing i would ask, should
> you choose to use a logo that i design, is for you to acknowledge me as
> the designer... mention my name and an email link somewhere on your page
> (small print is fine). but, let me repeat, i'm *not* looking for any
> monetary compensation.
>
> if you're looking for a completely different design scheme, don't
> hesitate to say so.
>
> sincerely,
>
> andrew hreschak
> hreschak@eden.rutgers.edu
>
> the designs can be seen here:
> http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~hreschak/windows_refund/index.html
>
> sum-1 wrote:
> >
> > hello,
> >
> > i'm wondering if it would be possible to be provided with a link to the
> > logo entries you have received thus far, or to have them sent to me via
> > email...? i'm curious to see the quality of work submitted up to this
> > point. furthermore, i have a question regarding design... you are
> > looking for a logo for the webpage which will hold information on this
> > issue, correct...? or are you looking for a logo for letterhead, etc...
> > i need to have an idea of size constraints, etc...
> >
> > thanks,
> >
> > andrew hreschak
> > hreschak@eden.rutgers.edu
> >
> > TheNoodle Site Administrator wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks Andrew,
> > > I'm sending this on to Linux Mall. Given the ... "range" of logos seen
> > > so far, I think they'll appreciate knowing about your offer of
> > > professional design skills. Later,
> > >
> > > -Matt
> > >
> > > On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, sum-1 wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > okay, anyway, let me know if you would, what you decide to do about the
> > > > logo and name. i'm a graphic artist by trade and would love to be
> > > > involved in something like this.
> > > >
> > > > sincerely,
> > > >
> > > > andrew hreschak
> > > > hreschak@eden.rutgers.edu
> > > >
> > > > (i have a university account because i do consulting work for rutgers
> > > > university. it's my most often checked account.)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > TheNoodle Site Administrator wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > (They eventually did get a trademark for the word "Windows" all by
> > > > > itself.)
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, sum-1 wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > i was thinking about this after i sent it to you, and i may be wrong...
> > > > > > it may be that the trademarked name is 'windows 95' or 'windows nt'
> > > > > >
> > > > > > i'm not at all sure about this, but it seems like something to consider
> > > > > > if you plan to have people design logos for a campaign that is, in
> > > > > > essence, out to slam microsoft... now, if you wanted to call it
> > > > > > something like 'the micro$oft refund center'.. you kill two birds with
> > > >

--
Mark Bolzern mark@LinuxMall.com
Linux Mall --> is The Linux Superstore
http://www.LinuxMall.com mailto:info@LinuxMall.com
Phone: 303-693-3321 Fax: 303-699-2793

From A.Raman@massey.ac.nz Mon Feb 1 17:55:22 1999
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Dear Rick

Just to update you on developments:

1. I have organised a room in Wellington city for non-users of Windows
and sympathetic observers to gather and mingle. I have also arranged
for some nibbles, wine and cheese by deciding to sponsor this event
via UniForum NZ (the NZ chapter of the non-profit Open Systems group).

2. I scheduled it for 4pm on Monday 15th so that people can come
around after work. The event will take place approximately 1 day
before it does in the USA (since NZ is about 20 hours ahead of PST).

3. I am co-ordinating with the major newspapers and computer/magazines
for some press coverage of the event.

4. I will be contacting TVNZ shortly to see if they can give us a few
minutes' coverage on news.

5. I presume that the default position, unless I hear from you, the
newsletter or other source to the contrary is for UniForum NZ Inc to
collect verified packs of Windows and names/addresses of the people
who submit them, take them to the Microsoft office on the 16th and
request refunds on their behalf.

Do let me know if this is going along the lines you had envisioned.
I will email you the URL of the NZ windows refund site soon.
It will probably be http://www.uniforum.org.nz/windowsrefund/

Cheers.

- &

From dmarti@barley.electriclichen.com Mon Feb 1 14:27:59 1999
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Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 14:27:55 -0800
From: Don Marti dmarti@electriclichen.com
To: JAG@dr.dk
Cc: Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com
Subject: Re: Interview about Refund day
Message-ID: 19990201142755.D18688@electriclichen.com
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Jens,

Thank you for your mail. I can be available here Tuesday from 9:30 to
1:00 California time. I may or may not be available on Wednesday. My
phone number is 415-546-4028. Please feel free to give me a call
then. If you're on deadline and can't reach me, you can also try
415-308-7272.

I also encourage you to subscribe to refund-news at
http://zork.net/refund/ and also read the back issues.

You might like to have a copy of the current Microsoft Windows 98
end-user license agreement (EULA) in advance before talking with me.
The person at Microsoft who handles EULA-related publicity is Adam
Sohn at 425-882-8080. I'm sure he'll be able to send you a copy.
(There are copies of the EULA on the net, but for accuracy I encourage
you to get it straight from the source.)

--
Don Marti Electric Lichen L.L.C.
whois DM683 -rwxr--r-- Harrison Street
dmarti@electriclichen.com San Francisco, California USA

From JAG@dr.dk Mon Feb 1 13:32:46 1999
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Hi there....

I'm a journalist working for the National Danish Broadcast Corporation, and
I'm covering the Refund Day story for a radioprogramme on Radio Denmark
Programme 1 called "The Harddisc".

I would very much like to talk with a spokesperson from Linux Mafia on the
subject of consumers right to refund of factory-installed software.

The reason I choose to contact you? Well, I kinda like your polite but firm
attitude.

"####Schedule and directions will go here as we organize the refund drive.
We are encouraging everyone to stick together and present
a calm
and polite, but firm, request for our refund.

The message is not "Windows sucks, I want my money back."
The
message is "I choose not to accept this license, and am
therefore
exercising my right to return the product for a refund."

The quality or lack of quality of Microsoft products is
not the issue.####"

If you could answer this as quickly as possible it would be just great. I
was hoping to do an interview for tuesday or wednesday. It will be on the
phone, and it will take 20 minutes.

Thank you very much

Jens Aagren Poder, Radio Denmark
jag@dr.dk
www.dr.dk/harddisk/
phone: +45 3520 6094

From mattj@thenoodle.com Mon Feb 1 13:24:02 1999
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Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 13:52:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Matt Jensen mattj@thenoodle.com
To: Seth David Schoen schoen@uclink4.Berkeley.EDU
cc: Deirdre Saoirse deirdre@deirdre.net, Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com,
Mark@LinuxMall.com, jal@briar.net, nick@zork.net,
dmarti@electriclichen.com
Subject: Re: A successful refund from Dell
In-Reply-To: 19990201110602.A13899@requiem.geecs.org
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I agree with Seth about risk. But before putting out a release, you could
make a Dell-centric effort to try to get one vendor to go on the record in
support of refunds. That would be a huge win.

Last week Dell announced a new push to sell servers to Linux users. And
they got a lot of press for it. Why not track down the Dell sources in
those stories or the original press release, and persuade them to go
public with an official refund statement? (Or connect you to people in
Dell who CAN do that.)

My reading of the press is that Dell was the last of the top-tier server
vendors (IBM, SGI, HP, Compaq) to announce a Linux push. Persuade them
that the attention and free press they would get in the Linux community
for a refund position would win them the adoration of many Linux fans, and
they'd pull ahead of other big vendors in Linux mindshare and marketshare.

The same push could be made with e-machines, who targets the individual or
home Linux user, rather than the more upscale and enterprise customers
that Dell targets. They can split the glory. And they get our help in
reward for being first to do U.S. refunds. Just an idea.

-Matt

On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, Seth David Schoen wrote:

> Deirdre Saoirse writes:
> > Oh, Just Do It. :)

> Well, the problem is that this might be an isolated incident. It would be
> a little embarrassing to publicize widely and positively something that
> turned out to be a mistake by a customer support person who wasn't familiar
> with policy.
>
> Maybe better to put this on slashdot or somewhere similar and see whether
> it's (as James Randi would no doubt insist) repeatable.
>
> --
> Seth David Schoen / schoen@uclink4.berkeley.edu
> He said, "This is what the king who will reign over you will do." And they
> said, "Nay, but we will have a king over us, that we also may be like all the
> nations." (1 Sam 8) http://ishmael.geecs.org/~sigma/ http://www.loyalty.org/
>

From schoen@requiem.reshall.berkeley.edu Mon Feb 1 10:43:55 1999
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From: Seth David Schoen schoen@uclink4.Berkeley.EDU
To: Deirdre Saoirse deirdre@deirdre.net,
Seth David Schoen schoen@uclink4.Berkeley.EDU
Cc: Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com, mattj@thenoodle.com, Mark@LinuxMall.com,
jal@briar.net, nick@zork.net, dmarti@electriclichen.com
Subject: A successful refund from Dell
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Simon Hill says (in the LinuxWorld newsgroup) that he was promised a $199
Windows refund by Dell on Friday:

http://ibis.home.texas.net/dell.html

Part of me is tempted to put out a release/article saying something like

In an apparent change in policy, the Austin, TX-based computer vendor
Dell Computer Corporation has said it will honor a clause in the
license agreement for Microsoft Windows which allows non-Windows users
to return unused copies of Windows for a refund from Dell.

On Friday, a Dell representative agreed to provide a refund to Dell
customer Simon Hill. Hill asked for a refund on an unopened copy of
Microsoft Windows 98 which came bundled with his new Dell computer;
he is a user of the Linux operating system. A customer service
representative at the national computer vendor advised Hill that he
could return his unused copy of Windows and receive a check from Dell.

"Unlike most other vendors we've seen so far, Dell is living up to its
license obligations," said J. Random Hacker, an organizer of the
upcoming Windows Refund Day event. "Dell's willingness to honor the
refund clause will make Dell computers much more attractive to users
of Linux and other operating systems other than Linux. We hope that
other vendors will follow suit in the near future."

On February 15, customers of various computer manufacturers (OEMs)
who declined to honor the license language will gather at Microsoft's
office in Foster City to ask Microsoft to help make sure that they
receive their promised refunds. But in light of the recent
development, Dell users may be staying at home.

"Since Dell, unlike other vendors, now appears responsive to refund
requests, I'd encourage people who bought Dell computers and never
used Windows to try calling up Dell before making plans to come
along to Microsoft on the 15th," added Hacker.

Within the United States, only Dell and eMachines, Inc. are known to
have honored the license agreement's refund clause, while a survey
last June by David Chun, then of Ralph Nader's Consumer Project on
Technology, found no manufacturers willing to offer refunds for unused
Microsoft operating systems.

From rpjday@mindspring.com Mon Feb 1 05:53:10 1999
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From: rpjday rpjday@mindspring.com
To: bofh@linuxmafia.com
Subject: a couple more thoughts
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and while i'm having random thoughts ...

1) i note that the online copy of the EULA is clearly titled

Microsoft End User License Agreement

are these the exact words used on the paper EULA? if so,
this clearly implies that this is an agreement between the
consumer and microsoft. but notice how quickly the third party
(the OEM) is dragged in to make things muddy.

2) i'm looking at the EULA online at www.linuxmall.com, and
something has jumped out at me. note how the first paragraph
emphasizes the distinction between SOFTWARE PRODUCT asnd HARDWARE.
several times throughout that paragraph, there is a reference to
"SOFTWARE PRODUCT" to make sure there is no confusion.

yet in the last line, we have the watered-down reference to
"unused product(s)", which gives Microsoft the out to say that
that really means the bundled unit. does this last reference to
"product(s)" refer to software, hardware or the combination?
and why is it so maddeningly vague when, up to that point,
the EULA was quite specific in distinguishing between the
two?

all in all, the EULA seems to be a frustratingly vague document
which leaves key terms undefined or ambiguous.

rday

From cinnamon@pft.com Sat Feb 6 15:01:26 1999
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From: "Brian Thomas" cinnamon@pft.com
To: arlo@linuxmafia.com
Subject: Open source only? Huh?
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The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Until you and others in the open source
community understand that, we will have an infinitely harder time succeeding
against Microsoft.

I am an ardent Linux user at home, but due to it's SMP instability we are
forced to use Solaris X86 at the office. Many at our company WERE going to
assist with the Refund Day activities, but since become aware of your
exclusionary policies towards any 'proprietary' operating system we have
decided to bow out, as have a good dozen of our friends.

The issue here is not open source - What makes you think anything having to
do with the EULA issue is? The issue is ONE company forcing you to buy an
operating system they make with every PC sold. I can, and have, purchased
Sparc platform machines from Sun and opted to NOT buy an OS license, which
they have no problem at all with - I then installed Linux on it. As such, I
would think you would WANT Sun Solaris users on board, since they are
subject to the same ludicrous license agreements Linux users are.

You are being foolish by limiting the potential members of your little
Linux/BSD-only event, for reasons that I cannot fathom other than open
source evangelism, an issue completely unrelated to Microsoft's EULA. Take a
step back from your kernel sometime and maybe start thinking about what is
actually involved here.

Brian

From pierre@calderauk.com Mon Feb 1 04:21:54 1999
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To: Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com
Subject: Re: Unwanted M*crosoft license / Can you help ?
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Hi Rick,

Thanks for your answer

Rick Moen wrote:

> Dear Pierre:
>
> Delighted to hear from you and from Caldera. I wish I could tell you
> what to expect in the long term, or give you a guaranteed winning

---8<---8<--8<---8<---

> P.S.: I'm unclear from your e-mail which side of The Channel / La Mancheyou're
> on. A specifically French effort is being assembled by Robertodi Cosmo, whose
> Web page for that purpose at

Well, I'm French by nationality but I work in the U.K. ;-) I've read Di
Cosmo's book but I didn't know he was actually involved in this.

I'll try to contact Toshiba firstm then Microsoft. Actually, as a matter of
principle, I'm quite prepared to *loose* money to make OEMs and Microsoft respect
their customers, so I will take the issue as far as it needs to.

I'll tell you how it turns out.

Thanks,
regards,

From pierre@calderauk.com Sun Jan 31 07:52:09 1999
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Hi,

My name is Pierre-Philippe Coupard and I work at Caldera Thin Client
(the DR-DOS division of Caldera Inc.).

I've bought a Toshiba laptop in Utah last week with Windoze 98
preinstalled on it. The first thing I did was to wipe it out of the disk
and dump Linux on it, of course ;-)

I now have this Windows 98 license I just don't want (and never
wanted anyway) and I'm trying to get a refund. The VAR I bought the
laptop from was adamant. So I've asked my colleague at Caldera who
manages the court case against Microsoft and he said you guys where
doing quite a lot to get Microsoft to surrender the $$$ from unwanted
licenses and that I should contact you.

Do you know what is the best procedure to get my money back ? I'm
quite sure Toshiba will try to divert the issue if I contact them, let
alone Microsoft.

Thank you very much in advance. Btw, I just love what you guys are
doing.

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

P.P. Coupard, Caldera Thin Clients, Inc
Support Engineer / MIS manager
Email : ppcoupard@calderauk.com
Tel : +44 (01264) 333600 ext. 232
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There's no use in having a dog and doing your own barking.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From scott@tdiinc.com Fri Jan 29 15:10:23 1999
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Hi,

Being as I don't have a copy of Windows to return I'll be free to do other
things at this rather unprecedented event, and am volunteering my services
to be a "Marshall".

Let me know if you still need people.

- Scott Deeg

From sdeeg@accesscom.com Fri Jan 29 13:54:05 1999
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Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 13:44:05 -0800
To: "Chris J. DiBona" chris@dibona.com,
Don Marti dmarti@electriclichen.com, Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com
From: Scott Deeg sdeeg@accesscom.com
Subject: Re: [svlug-offline] Refund day stuff...
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Hi Chris/Don/Rick,

I've been following the Refund day stuff, and I think it's great.
Unfortunately I don't have any unusued copies of Windows to try to get a
refund with as I've taken to building my own machines from parts. (Partly
to avoid the Gate tax)

But, I would like to attend as a sign of support (if that would be cool),
and would like to do what ever I can to help out. As you guys seem to be
on point for this effort I'll ask you all what tasks need doing.

caio,

- Scott

From sdhill@mail.utexas.edu Fri Jan 29 13:44:22 1999
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Hi guys,

I have an interesting twist. Today at 3:15 PM CST I called Dell to ask
about the EULA refund. Here's what happened!!! (I'm afraid the rep I
spoke with is about to lose his job, but it's GOOD news for us!)

The number I called was 1-800-879-3355. When the list of options came
up, I just hit 0, and got a generic Dell operator. The conversation went
like this:

Me: I'd like to know what department at Dell is responsible for refunds.

Op: That would be customer service.

Me: Could I please have the extension for customer service?

Op: I'm sorry, I can't give you that, but I'll transfer you.

Me: Thank you.

Sean: Customer service, Sean speaking, how can I help you?

Me: I'd like to know Dell's policy on returning Windows for a refund.

Sean: You can return your system within 30 days if you're not satisfied
with it.

Me: No, I haven't bought a system yet, but when I do I'll be installing
Linux on it,
and I won't be needing the Windows software. Your sales department said
that
they won't sell me a system without Windows, so I need to know your
policy on
returning just Windows.

Sean: Just a moment, I'll have to check on that.

...a minute or two goes by...

Sean: Hello, Sir. Yes, you may return Windows for a refund.

Me: And could you tell me how much that refund would be?

Sean: I'll have to check on that. May I put you on hold again?

Me: Sure.

...another minute goes by...

Sean: Hello again, Sir. That would be about one ninety nine.

Me: You mean One Hundred and Ninety Nine dollars?

Sean: Yes, sir.

Me: Thank you VERY much.

--
Simon Hill (simon@metasystema.org)
http://www.metasystema.org/
http://www.ibisbooks.com/

From Dave_Kroll@cdpoly.com Fri Jan 29 07:58:23 1999
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From: "Kroll, Dave" Dave_Kroll@cdpoly.com
To: "'rick@linuxmafia.com'" rick@linuxmafia.com
Subject: Feb 15th
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:54:05 -0600
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Hello!

My friend referred me to the Windows refund page, and I've read some of
the information. Are you aware of anything planned in the Twin Cities?
I personally would not be returning anything, but I would be interested
in observing.

David Kroll
Lab Manager
612-882-6452

From esr@snark.thyrsus.com Fri Jan 29 06:49:22 1999
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I think Refund Day is a very funny and effective idea. Happens I'll
be in the Bay Area Feb 15 speaking at Virginia Postrel's Dynamic
Visions conference. Would you like another parade marshal?

I feel a little awkward suggesting asking this, because I know it
might seem like I'm trying to get out front on something I didn't
think up or organize. But if you guys think you can leverage my media
visibility and contacts to get more publicity, feel free to use me in
any way -- press contacts, marquee guest, whatever.

I thought the suggestion that you don't necessarily want a full
refund, but just enough to cover the cost of a Linux, was particularly
wicked and effective.
--
<a href="http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr">Eric S. Raymond</a>

Morality is always the product of terror; its chains and
strait-waistcoats are fashioned by those who dare not trust others,
because they dare not trust themselves, to walk in liberty.
-- Aldous Huxley

From menso@mensys.nl Fri Jan 29 02:39:06 1999
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From: "Menso B. de Jong" menso@mensys.nl
To: "arlo@linuxmafia.com" arlo@linuxmafia.com
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 99 11:37:31
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Yes, please help us to organize a refund
day in the Netherlands. We are aiming at
Feb. 15.

Thanks
Regards/groeten, Menso de Jong
Mensys tel +31 23 5482012
e-mail menso@mensys.nl

From smb23@csufresno.edu Thu Jan 28 21:12:54 1999
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Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 21:14:44 -0800 (PST)
From: byrd1 smb23@csufresno.edu
To: marshals@linuxmafia.com
Subject: Do you need help?
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Dear Rick, Nick, Don, and whoever else is cordinating(sorry if I missed
anyone),

I'm am interested and willing to help out in any way I can with
'Refund Day'. Just email me or call me. I live in the Fresno area so I
can't help out much with actual phiscal stuff till that weekend. My phone
number is below.

Steve Bibayoff
(559) 292-2920 (evenings)

From thalakan@technologist.com Thu Jan 28 15:50:04 1999
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From: Jason Spence thalakan@technologist.com
To: Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com
Subject: Re: Willing to volunteer for marshal position
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 15:50:51 -0800
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On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, you wrote:
>Quoting thalakan@technologist.com (thalakan@technologist.com):
>
>> Hey, I *LIVE* in Foster City!
>
>Cool. I used to work about 400 feet from the building Micrsoft's in,
>so it's familiar territory for me, too. (I'm in San Francisco, now.)
>
>> I've been to the Microsoft office a couple times for NT user group meetings,
>> but now all my friends are going with me :) Only fair I chip in... what do I
>> need to do to become a marshal?
>
>You've done what can be done for the moment (except I've appreciate
>getting a less unwieldy name than "thalakan", and we probably should
>collect telephone numbers). We're still very much in the planning
>and setup stages.

My primary number is (650) 520-5090. I also have an email-telephony gateway,
so I do check my e-mail even when I'm mobile. Do you need administrative
assistance as well?

>--
>Cheers, The Viking's Reminder:
>Rick Moen Pillage first, _then_ burn.
>rick (at) hugin.imat.com
--

-Jason

From deirdre@deirdre.net Thu Jan 28 14:44:07 1999
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Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 14:44:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Deirdre Saoirse deirdre@deirdre.net
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To: Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com
cc: Matthew Cunningham matthew@ssc.com, schoen@uclink4.berkeley.edu,
mattj@thenoodle.com, Mark@LinuxMall.com, jal@briar.net, nick@zork.net,
dmarti@electriclichen.com
Subject: Re: Linux Journal
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Don't forget the Southern contingent...we probably won't need as many as
the bay area, but we love you anyway. And if you wouldn't mind slipping in
a few of those computer badges for converts, we'll worship you too. :)

Windows Refund Day c/o
Deirdre Saoirse
3601 Parkview Lane #20A
Irvine, CA 92612
949-653-1296 (but I'm never home these days ::sigh::)

There have been a couple of people who have expressed interest in the
Seattle area, but thus far no formal organizers. We'd love to see some! :)

On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, Rick Moen wrote:

> Greetings. Have a double espresso and think of us. ;->
>
> Delighted to hear from you. As you can imagine, we're just getting
> details nailed down, but tchotchkes such as issues of our favourite
> magazine, bumper stickers, etc. will certainly be warmly and
> gratefully received:
>
> Linux Refund Day
> 744 Harrison
> San Francisco CA 94107-1235
>
> --
> Cheers, Linux: It is now safe to turn on your computer.
> Rick Moen
> rick (at) linuxmafia.com
>
>
>
>
>
> Quoting Matthew Cunningham (matthew@ssc.com):
>
> > Hello from rainy Seattle,
> >
> > My name is Matthew Cunningham, and I work for Linux Journal magazine here
> > in Seattle. We are all watching the developments happening with the
> > EULA/Refund Day issue. Of course, everybody is quite excited.
> >
> > I am writing to offer our help if there is anything that you need for this
> > movement. At no charge, I am willing to ship you LINUX bumber stickers,
> > or 100-200 copies of Linux Journal for you to hand out at any rallys that
> > are going on -- in the Bay Area, or otherwise. People love free stuff --
> > giving out a magazine also helps to legitimize Linux for non-Linux users I
> > have found.
> >
> > Please do not hesitate to contact me if there is anything you need.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Matthew Cunningham
> > Marketing
> > Linux Journal
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > Matthew Cunningham, matthew@ssc.com P.O. Box 55549 Seattle, WA 98155
> > Marketing Ph: (206) 782-7733 ext. 112
> > Linux Journal Fx: (206) 782-7191
> > An SSC Publication www.linuxjournal.com
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>

_Deirdre * http://disclaimer.deirdre.org * http://www.deirdre.net
"But tomorrow is another day" -- BofH
"We need not suffer in silence while we can still moan, whimper and
complain." -- PJ

From thalakan@technologist.com Thu Jan 28 14:16:18 1999
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Hey, I *LIVE* in Foster City!

I've been to the Microsoft office a couple times for NT user group meetings,
but now all my friends are going with me :) Only fair I chip in... what do I
need to do to become a marshal?

From trowe@ibm.net Thu Jan 28 19:43:01 1999
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Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 22:46:35 +0100
To: rick@hugin.imat.com
From: "Tom Rowe" trowe@ibm.net
Subject: Re: refund-news
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Rick,
The last first. I had thought about trying to do something here, but
I just recently moved to Atlanta, took a new job, and bought a house,
so my time is realy too limited right now (I had to bow out as one of
the organizers for WarpStock for that reason). Certainly if someone
else wants to be the main effort behind it, I'd help as I could, so
feel free to pass my name and e-mail address on to them if you're
contacted.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be critical of any efforts for
people to get refunds, my only concern is that, reading the EULA, it
seems that it would be quite easy for MS to pass the buck to the
OEM's. As they have so far it seems. However, the EULA clearly states
that the OEM's have an obligation to pony up. Incidentally, I showed
a copy of the EULA to my wife, who used to work for a law firm on
just such issues, and she aggreed that they have absolutely no out.
But in any case, I look forward to how MS responds on the 15th, and I
*do* hope people are successful.

I just took a look at the NT4 EULA, and it clearly differentiates
betwen the ' "SOFTWARE PRODUCT" ' and the ' "HARDWARE" '. So at least
Toshiba would loose an argument there.

Good luck.

Tom Rowe
Atlanta, GA

Four wheel drive allows you to get stuck
in places even more inaccessible.

From rbell@wyellowstone.com Thu Jan 28 13:30:09 1999
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Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 14:30:04 -0700
From: "Robert E. Bell" rbell@wyellowstone.com
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Rick,

The windows refund FAQ says to write you
to express interest in the Windows
refund. I am interested, but I have
questions that I haven't be able to get
answered by reading all the web pages
and news letters:

1. How long has the EULA been phrased
that way? Just wondering if it was
recent and if it would apply to Win95
agreements.

2. Is anybody organizing in New Mexico?
I can't really fly to California or New
York, though I would love to participate
in the Refund Day.

3. How else do I apply for a refund and
still join a larger group for the
purposes of making a statement?

Reason being is I just purchased a new
laptop (should be here in a few hours),
but it is a discontinued IBM Thinkpad
and has Win95 and perhaps an older
version of the EULA. Do I contact IBM?
Or is there an IBM group starting?

Btw, had I not seen these web pages I
would have probably booted up W95 to
check the hardware out before
repartioning for Linux.

Thanks for your time!
Robert

From jameshb@bellatlantic.net Thu Jan 28 13:03:08 1999
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Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 15:58:54 -0500
From: "James H. Birdsall" jameshb@bellatlantic.net
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It seems to me that the best way to get refunds quickly, AFTER
REQUESTING A REFUND COUPLED WITH THE OFFER TO RETURN THE CD-ROM (if any)
AND ANY WINDOWS MANUALS OR LITERATURE received with the new PC, is to
let "them" know that if they are not bound by the "agreement" neither
are you and that you are therefore free to make copies and sell them for
whatever you choose to recap the cost you involuntarily paid for
Windows. Any attorney up on Contract law should be able to confirm
this (I am not a lawyer but I think I'm right) and help you with the
wording. Anyone trying this risks litigation so must consult a good
attorney first.

From emily@thomaspr.com Thu Jan 28 12:26:35 1999
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Date: 28 Jan 1999 12:29:35 -0800
From: "Emily Greene" emily@thomaspr.com
Subject: Inquiries re: MS Windows Refund Day
To: "Rick Moen" bofh@linuxmafia.com
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Subject:Inquiries re: MS Windows Refund* Date: 1/28/99 Time: 12:23 PM

Rick:

I spoke with you last week regarding the Microsoft Refund Day. On the website I noticed that there is no specified time for the rally - have you decided on a time yet? Also, how many people are you expecting and what type of response have you received? I'd like to get the word out to some Java and Solaris user groups at Sun.

Looking forward to hearing from you.
Regards,
Emily Greene

Emily Greene
emily@thomaspr.com
Thomas Associates, Inc.
390 Bridge Parkway
Redwood City, CA 94065
http://www.thomaspr.com
Tel: 650/596-2700
Fax: 650/596-2780

From riel@nl.linux.org Thu Jan 28 12:32:28 1999
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From: Rik van Riel riel@nl.linux.org
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To: arlo@linuxmafia.com
Subject: [refund-news] Issue Three: The Microsoft Windows Refund Newsletter
(fwd)
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>From [refund-news]:

> Remember: If you would like assistance in organizing users to
> participate in the Windows Refund effort, please let us know by
> writing to "arlo@linuxmafia.com"

I'd like to tell you that there's a refund action
going (very slowly) in the Netherlands and Vlaanderen
(the Dutch-speaking part of Belgium).
The web site can be found at:

<http://www.nl.linux.org/geldterug/>

cheers,

Rik -- If a Microsoft product fails, who do you sue?
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Linux Memory Management site: http://humbolt.geo.uu.nl/Linux-MM/ |
| Nederlandse Linux documentatie: http://www.nl.linux.org/ |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+

From nick@zork.net Thu Jan 28 12:11:42 1999
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Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:19:11 -0800
From: Nick Moffitt nick@zork.net
To: Rick Moen rick0199@hugin.imat.com
Cc: schoen@uclink4.berkeley.edu, mattj@thenoodle.com, deirdre@deirdre.net,
Mark@LinuxMall.com, jal@briar.net, nick@zork.net,
dmarti@electriclichen.com
Subject: Slashdot article on Toshibas
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http://slashdot.org/articles/99/01/28/097245.shtml

Apparently now the EULA agreement occurs when you unwrap the
hardware.

--
* Progress (n.): The process through which Usenet has evolved from
smart people in front of dumb terminals to dumb people in front of
smart terminals. -- obs@burnout.demon.co.uk (obscurity)

From therese.poletti@reuters.com Thu Jan 28 12:16:54 1999
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Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:18:37 -0800
From: Therese Poletti therese.poletti@reuters.com
Subject: refund day story request
To: rick@linuxmafia.com
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Hi I was interested in talking to someone (perhaps Donald Marti?) about the
Windows refund day for a brief story I would like to do on it. Please
either email me with contact information on who to speak to and how to get
a hold of him (I tried to find Marti in SF information, but he is not
listed).Thank you for your time. Therese Poletti, Correspondent Reuters

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender,
except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of
Reuters Ltd.

From deirdre@deirdre.net Thu Jan 28 10:08:35 1999
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From: Deirdre Saoirse deirdre@deirdre.net
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To: Mark Bolzern Mark@LinuxMall.com
cc: Nick Moffitt nick@zork.net, Rick Moen rick0199@hugin.imat.com,
schoen@uclink4.berkeley.edu, mattj@thenoodle.com, jal@briar.net,
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Subject: Another suggestion
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At the *first hint* that a user isn't going to get a refund, I *highly*
suggest that they fill out the FTC's online complaint form, found at:

http://www.ftc.gov/ftc/complaint.htm

This may well expedite the process, especially if the person states that
they have filed a complaint with the FTC. The DOJ case is, naturally, an
outgrowth of an ongoing FTC investigation.

_Deirdre * http://disclaimer.deirdre.org * http://www.deirdre.net
"But tomorrow is another day" -- BofH
"We need not suffer in silence while we can still moan, whimper and
complain." -- PJ

From dmarti@barley.electriclichen.com Thu Jan 28 09:38:26 1999
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Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:40:19 -0800
From: Don Marti dmarti@electriclichen.com
To: "Nickels Moffitt, King of the Low Rollers" nick@zork.net,
Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com,
Seth David Schoen schoen@uclink4.Berkeley.EDU,
Chris DiBona chris@dibona.com
Subject: PR stunts
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Attention media manipulators:

Just had an interesting conversation with Chris DiBona, who is
interested in supporting Linux publicity efforts by helping to set up
a Linux publicity project with the office-type stuff that we don't
have yet. I offered to host the project here in my office (when we
get rid of the big rack there's space for a desk in the corner.)

PR Newswire: Chris has offered to fund a PR Newswire membership.

Fax server: Chris has offered to donate us a VA box and an _external_
modem to set up here at the Coffeenet as a fax server to make sure
Linux communiques reach those of the local media who don't read their
email. http://www.tpc.int/ Someone should volunteer to be the
faxmaster, I might have time.

There's no TPC coverage for 415 yet, so we could do that:
http://www-usa.tpc.int/fax_cover_auto.html

And Chris has offered to fund voicemail for those who want it, phone
line for the fax machine, a domain name, Coffeenet connectivity if
available, etc.

Any more ideas? Happy media manipulating.

--
Don Marti Electric Lichen L.L.C.
whois DM683 -rwxr--r-- Harrison Street
dmarti@electriclichen.com San Francisco, California USA

From dhd@netropolis.net Thu Jan 28 08:20:32 1999
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I'd be interested in joining this effort. I, too, have had to
unnecessarily buy Windows. I've thought about filing a class action.
Let me know if there is any interest in that regard.

_______________________________________________________
The Law Office of Darin H. Duphorne
PGP ENCRYPTION
10400 S. Post Oak Rd. KEY AVAILABLE ON REQUEST
Suite E-328
Houston, Texas 77035

Specializing in Patents, Trademarks, Copyrights, Trade Secrets
Unfair Competition, and Litigation of Intellectual Property Cases

(713) 446-3846 (voice)
(281) 754-4076 (fax)
http://www.netropolis.net/dhd/index.html gigem '89
_______________________________________________________
The Issue of Patents For New Discoveries Has Given
A Spring To Invention Beyond My Conception.
Thomas Jefferson
_______________________________________________________

From ted@neis.net Thu Jan 28 06:28:57 1999
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I'm on the newsletter, and have a suggestion that probably has come up. Class action lawsuit against MS as it's their license agreement and the OEMs are not willing to make the refund (as they won't get reimbursed themselves). I got a $10 settlement from Iomega a while back because they were exceedingly slow on a refund return and some consumer group took them to court for it. Imagine every user of every alternate OS times the number of computers running other OSes filing for this suit regardless of whether or not they used Win95 but are running a different OS now. Estimated 7-10 million Linux machines alone, many of which undoubtedly came with Windows preloaded. Think of all the legal leg-work already done by the Justice Department in their anti-trust case. Settlement, or a portion of it, could go into a fund to hire programmers for Open Source projects.

--
Ted Guild
Internet Software Developer
http://www.neis.net
New England Internet Services
482 Congress St, Suite 402
Portland, ME 04101
v. 207.828.8680
f. 207.828.8645
ted@neis.net

From nick@zork.net Wed Jan 27 23:38:58 1999
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Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 23:46:36 -0800
From: Nick Moffitt nick@zork.net
To: Lane Roathe lane@bestmail.com
Cc: rick@hugin.imat.com, dmarti@electriclichen.com,
Seth David Schoen schoen@zork.net, dierdre@dierdre.net,
matt@linuxmall.com
Subject: Re: Q: Refund on 95 since NT installed?
Message-ID: 19990127234636.A16292@zork.net
References: 1294642645-224936178@digitalreef.net
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In-Reply-To: 1294642645-224936178@digitalreef.net; from Lane Roathe on Wed, Jan 27, 1999 at 11:35:25PM -0800
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On Wed, Jan 27, 1999 at 11:35:25PM -0800, Lane Roathe wrote:
> I believe it's viable, but here's a question:
>
> I purchased a Micron system and wanted NT installed, but because the
> Micron was a "pre-packaged" system it would have cost an extra $500
> for NT. So, I chose to purchase a copy mail order for $250. After
> getting the machine, I inserted the NT boot floppy, and installed a
> clean copy of NT, formatting the hard drive for the NT file system.
>
> I believe this is a viable case for a refund on Windows 95; your
> input?

Yes indeed! So long as you _never used the bundled software_
and _never opened the shrinkwrapped license_, you are indeed eligible
for a refund! We're looking for stories involving NT users
requesting a refund particularly to prove the point that we're not
doing this as some sort of anti-Microsoft action, but rather as an
attempt to fulfill a contract. If you need more help, we're happy to
provide information and publish your account (or link to your existing
account). If you live in the San Francisco Bay area, we'd be
extremely happy to have you come along with us to the Foster City
event (http://linuxmafia.com/refund/).

I've Cc'd others involved in the refund effort in case they
have any comments they'd like to make.

--
* Progress (n.): The process through which Usenet has evolved from
smart people in front of dumb terminals to dumb people in front of
smart terminals. -- obs@burnout.demon.co.uk (obscurity)

From nick@zork.net Wed Jan 27 19:53:39 1999
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Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:01:22 -0800
From: Nick Moffitt nick@zork.net
To: Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com
Cc: schoen@uclink4.berkeley.edu, mattj@thenoodle.com, Mark@LinuxMall.com,
jal@briar.net, dmarti@electriclichen.com
Subject: [donna.s@niestu.com: Re: [refund-news] Issue Two (update for issue one)]
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I just got the following response from "Donna.", the original
refund-getter.

----- Forwarded message from "Donna." donna.s@niestu.com -----

On Wed, 27 Jan 1999, Nick Moffitt wrote:

> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE -- Tuesday, January 26, 1998
>
> Contact: Nick M. Moffitt, (415)512-8525, or nick@zork.net

[...]

> Geoffrey Bennett, an Australian computer user, reported last week that
> he had persuaded a computer vendor there to give him a full refund for
> his unused copy of the Microsoft Windows operating system. But users
> here who tried to request such a refund from their computer
> manufacturers said that the manufacturers claimed unfamiliarity with
> the refund offer. And a report by David Chun, then an intern at Ralph
> Nader's Consumer Project on Technology, said in June that not one of
> the 12 OEMs he contacted was willing to sell him a computer without
> Windows or to provide a refund for Windows if he used another
> operating system.

While manufacturer spokespeople and salescritters say they don't know
anything about the refund and will say it isn't possible, a determined
customer who is polite and well-informed -- and willing to show them the
appropriate clauses in the EULA -- can, indeed, receive a refund.

At least, that's how I got my refund from Canon, once I got a manager to
run the EULA by their Legal Dept. And I'm in the US, was in the US when I
bought my Canon, and dealt with a US office of Canon. Presumably, it was
their US-based legal department who gave the go-ahead.

I did it with no fanfare, no publicity, and certainly no campaign behind
me. Rather, I did it the way that virtually all social change in this
country is eventually effected: by individuals standing by their
principles and refusing to back down in the face of the occasional line
grunt who says something can't be done just because they've never heard of
it being done before.

While I wholeheartedly agree with the idea of encouraging users to return
their unused Windows for a refund (indeed, I have been trying to get that
same word out for two years now), I am filled with sorrow that those who
are organizing the event seem to be as devoid of hope as end users usually
are when contemplating Microsoft products. The problem is one of thinking
that others can be changed, when all we can change is ourselves. If,
instead, you could imagine a way to help your followers empower
themselves, get them to change their ways of thinking such that they do
not feel powerless when dealing with a large corporation, you will do much
good for the causes of Linux, of Open Source, and of computing itself: you
will be bringing these communities back to our roots, when we =built= the
computing industry by plugging away when Everybody Else insisted it
couldn't be done.

Personal empowerment and perseverence in the face of corporate naysaying
is where our history lies. Can't it be our future as well?

Donna.
Cybrarian, NiEstu
donna.s@niestu.com

----- End forwarded message -----

--
* Progress (n.): The process through which Usenet has evolved from
smart people in front of dumb terminals to dumb people in front of
smart terminals. -- obs@burnout.demon.co.uk (obscurity)

From nick@zork.net Wed Jan 27 19:12:48 1999
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Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:20:30 -0800
From: Nick Moffitt nick@zork.net
To: Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com
Cc: schoen@uclink4.berkeley.edu, mattj@thenoodle.com, Mark@LinuxMall.com,
jal@briar.net, nick@zork.net, dmarti@electriclichen.com
Subject: [daniel@digital-canvas.com: EULA in Tokyo]
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I assume that this was in response to Issue Two of the
refund-news newsletter (available at
http://zork.net/refund/issuetwo.html).

----- Forwarded message from Daniel Minoru Saito daniel@digital-canvas.com -----

Reply-To: "Daniel Minoru Saito" daniel@digital-canvas.com
From: "Daniel Minoru Saito" daniel@digital-canvas.com
To: nick@zork.net
Subject: EULA in Tokyo
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:06:35 +0900
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3

I have done the same here in Tokyo, Japan. I even put the pressure on to
Microsoft by calling their regional offices here and their comment was that
the EULA was part of the license and in order to get the license you need to
purchase the product.. Talk about a catch 22..

Daniel

-----
Can you even see the EULA before purchase?

A couple of us here in the Bay Area have been calling around trying to
get a copy of the EULA from Microsoft or an OEM. No luck so far --
guess you don't even get to see it unless you pay.

----- End forwarded message -----

--
* Progress (n.): The process through which Usenet has evolved from
smart people in front of dumb terminals to dumb people in front of
smart terminals. -- obs@burnout.demon.co.uk (obscurity)

From dmarti@barley.electriclichen.com Wed Jan 27 22:06:38 1999
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Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:08:33 -0800
From: Don Marti dmarti@electriclichen.com
To: Matt Jensen mattj@thenoodle.com
Cc: Rick Moen rick0199@hugin.imat.com, schoen@uclink4.berkeley.edu,
deirdre@deirdre.net, Mark@LinuxMall.com, jal@briar.net, nick@zork.net
Subject: Re: (long) Re: The longer term
Message-ID: 19990127220833.C21386@electriclichen.com
References: 199901280049.QAA07436@hugin.imat.com Pine.LNX.3.95.990127173546.12297C-100000@www.thenoodle.com
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Rick Moen has already answered this well, probably better than I
could. But I'm answering it anyway.

On Wed, Jan 27, 1999 at 05:55:10PM -0800, Matt Jensen wrote:

> What if you go to Microsoft's offices and say "we want to return
> Windows for a refund"? Microsoft will stick to their current
> position and say "go talk to your OEM, as stated in the EULA.

Not necessarily. I'm keeping up with the internal discussions at
Microsoft, and they're a group of people like any other -- not a hive
mind. We expect that the reasonable people's case for doing a refund
is stronger than the unreasonanable people's case for trying to blow
us off.

> There needs to be a specific Call To Action, where we ask someone
> (MS, OEMs, or DOJ) to DO something specific, with another plan that
> kicks in if they refuse.

No, there doesn't. Windows Refund Day is about getting a refund for
software whose license we do not accept. The offer of a refund is
explicit, and all we need to do is walk up and ask for it. We don't
need to get the OEMs or the DOJ or the FBI or the MIBs involved to
pick up a check.

If Windows Refund Day doesn't result in any checks, then people are
free to do other things. However, we are proceeding under the
assumption that we will get checks on the 15th, and anything else
would be a surprise, since Microsoft is an honorable company that will
carry out their part of the refund clause.

> They then say "these UNIX enthusiasts can't seem to understand the
> license. It's up to their OEMs." I think we may look foolish if we
> can't present a convincing LEGAL argument.

We have public opinion on our side, and will continue to have it,
since the simple request we're making seems right and fair. Even if
they out-lawyer us, they won't make us look foolish. We are already
making them look foolish, and we haven't even gotten warmed up yet.
People understand the "go to the OEM" line to be slick weasel words,
since it's _Microsoft_ Windows, right? No point being more
complicated than you have to be.

> I think it would help greatly to present a written, suggested refund
> policy plan that they could feasibly follow.

They wrote the policy, we didn't. Return it for a refund. If they
want to give us bar-coded CD mailers to make it easier in the future,
fine, but the policy is there and satisfactory. We just need to get
them to hold up their end.

> Without such a plan, Microsoft will continue to truly believe it is
> a pie-in-the-sky idea, and will refuse to negotiate.

We do not expect them to negotiate. We expect them to write checks.
Negotiation has nothing to do with it.

> 1) collectively pressuring and rewarding OEMs for refunds.
> 2) for people with unhelpful OEMs, creating a small claims court how-to
> package, or pursuing a class action.
> 3) collectively pressuring Microsoft to drop "per-model" pricing and other
> practices.
> 4) pursuing a class action against Microsoft if they refuse.

Any lawyer who wants to start any kind of lawsuit against Microsoft is
welcome to put up a web site. That's not what Windows Refund Day is
about, though. We don't need no fancy lawyers to go get a check.

> But if people want to go straight to Microsoft for a refund, let's
> make it easier for Microsoft to agree. Offer them a written proposal
> for a refund procedure, in exchange for some kind of truce or seal
> of approval from the community, or something.

We're talking with Microsoft, not daily, but frequently. All will be
well.

BTW, anyone had any luck being able to see a Windows 98 EULA before
purchase?

--
Don Marti Electric Lichen L.L.C.
whois DM683 -rwxr--r-- Harrison Street
dmarti@electriclichen.com San Francisco, California USA

From schoen@requiem.reshall.berkeley.edu Wed Jan 27 17:10:49 1999
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Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:02:56 -0800
From: Seth David Schoen schoen@uclink4.Berkeley.EDU
To: Rick Moen rick0199@hugin.imat.com, schoen@uclink4.Berkeley.EDU,
mattj@thenoodle.com, deirdre@deirdre.net, Mark@LinuxMall.com,
jal@briar.net, nick@zork.net, dmarti@electriclichen.com
Subject: Re: (fwd) The longer term (was: Refund success would break Gates' back)
References: 199901280049.QAA07436@hugin.imat.com
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Rick Moen writes:

> Echoes of Tom Paine, anyone?

Open source in every state is a blessing, but Microsoft even in its best state
is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one; for when we
suffer, or are exposed to the same miseries _by a Microsoft OS_, which we
might expect on a system _without Microsoft_, our calamities are heightened by
reflecting that we furnish the means by which we suffer. Microsoft, like
dress, is the badge of lost innocence; the palaces of Gates are built on the
ruins of the bowers of paradise. For were the impulses of conscience clear,
uniform, and irresistably obeyed, man would need no other lawgiver; but that
not being the case, he finds it necessary to surrender up a part of his
property to furnish means for the development of NT 5...

[ _Common Sense_: "Of the Origin and Design of Microsoft" ]

From Mark@LinuxMall.com Wed Jan 27 14:40:17 1999
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Anyone care to reply? Probably should add her to the list in any case.
--
Mark Bolzern mark@LinuxMall.com
Linux Mall --> is The Linux Superstore
http://www.LinuxMall.com mailto:info@LinuxMall.com
Phone: 303-693-3321 Fax: 303-699-2793
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--
Bonnie Brodsky Greene : BonnieG@LinuxMall.com Linux Mall & WGS, Inc.
LinuxMall is --------> The Linux Superstore
http://www.LinuxMall.com mailto:info@LinuxMall.com
Tel: 303-693-3321 Fax: 303-699-2793

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I'm working on an article for Network Computing Magazine involving
shrinkwrap software license restrictions that users may have objectionable
e.g. restraints on software transferability, right to use timebombs,
disclaimers of warranty, provisions giving the software provider choice of
a forum (like Ireland) in event of a dispute with the customer;
prohibitions on incidental or consequential damages.

Your home page refers to software providers that prevent OEMs from
including competing products caught my attention in this vein. Do you know
if any of these OEMs similarly attach licensing terms that end users may
find objectionable and do you have copies of any of the licenses that these
OEMs are asked to sign?

If you can help, I can be reached at:

Christy Bonafield
612-887-2853
fax is 612-887-2913
cbonafield@nwc.com

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From: Stan Bunger - SOUTHBAY bunger@kron.com
To: "'bofh@linuxmafia.com'" bofh@linuxmafia.com
Subject: Windows refund story
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Rick,

I'm a reporter with KRON-TV, and we're interested in covering the February
15 "Windows refund" event in Redwood City.

Can you give me any more details about the event...exact time, etc.?

Feel free to give me a call...

Stan
Stan Bunger
"New Media News"
KRON-TV
408-792-4420

From owner-crackmonkey@zork.net Wed Jan 27 12:05:58 1999
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Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:05:40 -0800
From: Don Marti dmarti@electriclichen.com
To: Katy katy@zork.net
Cc: crackmonkey@zork.net
Subject: Re: [crackmonkey] bored? feel like messing with Microsoft? (fwd)
Message-ID: 19990127120540.A18640@electriclichen.com
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Katy,

> >From my father...(for those of you who know my father)
>
> So, anyone wanna take on TCI next?

Oh, I don't know, maybe if people asked Adam Sohn at Microsoft
personally for a copy of the EULA he could help -- (425) 882-8080. He
seems like a nice guy and everything.

--
Don Marti Electric Lichen L.L.C.
whois DM683 -rwxr--r-- Harrison Street
dmarti@electriclichen.com San Francisco, California USA
=====================================================================
To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@zork.net saying
"unsubscribe crackmonkey" in the body of the message.

From nick@zork.net Wed Jan 27 11:15:35 1999
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Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:23:14 -0800
From: Nick Moffitt nick@zork.net
To: rick@hugin.imat.com
Subject: [ncm@cantrip.org: newsletter]
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Here's the submission from Nathan.

----- Forwarded message from Nathan Myers ncm@cantrip.org -----

To: nick@zork.net
Subject: newsletter
Cc: ncm@cantrip.org
From: Nathan Myers ncm@cantrip.org
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:33:53 -0800

> On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 05:34:03PM -0800, Nathan Myers wrote:
> > > Would you consider writing a short paragraph for the
> > > refund-news newsletter?
>
> Also in this issue: Nathan Meyers on Chembook, a Bay Area press
> release, and a call for artwork.

First, be sure to spell my *name* right.
Here's the copy:

Buying a computer without Windows is probably hardest when what you
want is a laptop. Laptops tend to come in sealed boxes that the
dealer just hands over to you. Not all laptops are dealt this way.
In September 1998 I bought a Chembook 3300T (with various upgrades:
li-ion battery, 13.3in screen, etc.) from Hitron Systems in Santa
Clara, and stood by while their tech formatted the drive--after we
wrote down all the hardware details--before I took delivery. They
gave me almost $100 off the system price for not taking Windows. It's
happily running Debian GNU/Linux now. I know of two other people who
bought laptops for Linux at Hitron; one was installing it in their
store when I picked mine up.

Generally any laptop manufacturer who doesn't have a sweetheart deal
with Microsoft, and thus pays full price for Windows, can offer a you
better deal by leaving Windows out. Perhaps the IBMs and Compaqs of
the world can also offer "non-Windows" models without violating their
sweetheart contract; it certainly wouldn't hurt to ask them, if they
make just the machine you want.

One thing to be careful about when buying a "blank" system is that
because the system documentation never reveals details about hardware
device types, addresses, and interrupts, you should get the dealer
to write all that down for you before you take delivery. (It may be
that Windows offers a way to print out such a summary.)

Nathan Myers
ncm@cantrip.org

----- End forwarded message -----

--
* Progress (n.): The process through which Usenet has evolved from
smart people in front of dumb terminals to dumb people in front of
smart terminals. -- obs@burnout.demon.co.uk (obscurity)

From dmarti@barley.electriclichen.com Tue Jan 26 17:11:46 1999
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Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:13:33 -0800
From: Don Marti dmarti@electriclichen.com
To: MikeMillen@aol.com
Cc: schoen@uclink4.berkeley.edu, mattj@thenoodle.com, deirdre@deirdre.net,
Mark@LinuxMall.com, jal@briar.net, nick@zork.net,
Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com
Subject: Re: (forw) Legal Representation
Message-ID: 19990126171333.A13252@electriclichen.com
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Mike,

Rick Moen just let me know about your offer of legal representation
for Windows Refund Day.

Thank you for your interest. I encourage you to visit
http://zork.net/refund/ to subscribe to the Windows Refund Day
Newsletter for further updates.

Windows Refund Day is not a formal organization, so there is no
individual or group with the authority to retain legal counsel on
Windows Refund Day's behalf.

If you are interested in contacting Windows Refund Day participants,
it would be best to prepare a web site listing your plans for Windows
Refund Day and then mail the webmasters of the other Windows Refund
Day sites to let them know about yours. That way people interested in
working with you will be able to find you.

If you are interested in writing an article for the Windows Refund Day
Newsletter, you can mail it to Nick Moffitt nick@zork.net who will,
I'm sure, consider it for publication.

Hope to see you on February 15th.

--
Don Marti Electric Lichen L.L.C.
whois DM683 -rwxr--r-- Harrison Street
dmarti@electriclichen.com San Francisco, California USA

From schoen@requiem.reshall.berkeley.edu Tue Jan 26 17:04:50 1999
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Message-ID: 19990126165423.E18946@requiem.geecs.org
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:54:23 -0800
From: Seth David Schoen schoen@uclink4.Berkeley.EDU
To: Don Marti dmarti@electriclichen.com, Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com
Cc: schoen@uclink4.Berkeley.EDU, mattj@thenoodle.com, deirdre@deirdre.net,
Mark@LinuxMall.com, jal@briar.net, nick@zork.net
Subject: Re: (forw) Legal Representation
References: 19990126162816.D3998@hugin.imat.com 19990126165559.D13012@electriclichen.com
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Don Marti writes:

> I feel that the best way to handle offers of particpation from anyone,
> lawyer or not, is this.
>
> 1. Thank the person for his or her interest in Windows Refund Day.
> Invite the person to subscribe to refund-news
> at http://zork.net/refund/
>
> 2. Ask the person to put up a web page describing his or her intended
> Windows Refund Day project.
>
> 3. Invite the person to mail other Windows Refund Day webmasters when
> his or her page is done. Each webmaster will then have the option
> of linking to the new page if he or she chooses.
>
> This has the effect of (1) letting web-wandering reporters know about
> the depth of interest in Windows Refund Day and (2) making sure that
> there's no implied afffiliation between people who might not be
> comfortable with or interested in what each other is doing.
>
> Oh, and (3) weeding out anyone insufficiently clueful to put up a web
> page.
>
> Comments?

For the benefit of this lawyer (who does, after all, have a special
talent to offer), it might be nice to point out explicitly that the above
technique will allow interested participants to accept _individually_
his offer of representation. (This is very different from declining his
kind offer; it's just not accepting it "corporately", in keeping with
the idea that this is a very distributed effort.)

If this is OK with him, then the link to his page could say something like

<A HREF="http://www.attor.ney/">This lawyer</A> has extended an offer of
free legal representation to all interested participants, who should
contact him privately for more information.

(And individual webmasters could adopt or adapt this style as they
preferred.)

From dmarti@barley.electriclichen.com Tue Jan 26 16:54:04 1999
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Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:55:59 -0800
From: Don Marti dmarti@electriclichen.com
To: Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com
Cc: schoen@uclink4.berkeley.edu, mattj@thenoodle.com, deirdre@deirdre.net,
Mark@LinuxMall.com, jal@briar.net, nick@zork.net
Subject: Re: (forw) Legal Representation
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On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 04:28:16PM -0800, Rick Moen wrote:

> Just received. I have not replied.

[ Offer of representation from attorney deleted. ]

I feel that the best way to handle offers of particpation from anyone,
lawyer or not, is this.

1. Thank the person for his or her interest in Windows Refund Day.
Invite the person to subscribe to refund-news
at http://zork.net/refund/

2. Ask the person to put up a web page describing his or her intended
Windows Refund Day project.

3. Invite the person to mail other Windows Refund Day webmasters when
his or her page is done. Each webmaster will then have the option
of linking to the new page if he or she chooses.

This has the effect of (1) letting web-wandering reporters know about
the depth of interest in Windows Refund Day and (2) making sure that
there's no implied afffiliation between people who might not be
comfortable with or interested in what each other is doing.

Oh, and (3) weeding out anyone insufficiently clueful to put up a web
page.

Comments?

--
Don Marti Electric Lichen L.L.C.
whois DM683 -rwxr--r-- Harrison Street
dmarti@electriclichen.com San Francisco, California USA

From schoen@requiem.reshall.berkeley.edu Tue Jan 26 16:38:22 1999
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Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:26:31 -0800
From: Seth David Schoen schoen@uclink4.Berkeley.EDU
To: Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com, schoen@uclink4.Berkeley.EDU,
mattj@thenoodle.com, deirdre@deirdre.net, Mark@LinuxMall.com,
jal@briar.net, nick@zork.net, dmarti@electriclichen.com,
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Subject: Re: The usual suspects
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Here are a couple of handy FAX numbers for papers in the Bay Area:

Local alternative papers
------------------------
The SF Bay Guardian - FAX (415)255-8762
East Bay Express - FAX (510)540-7700
SF Weekly - FAX (415)777-1839

Local mainstream papers
-----------------------
Oakland Tribune - press FAX (510)208-6477
West County Times (CoCo) - FAX (510)262-2776
The Daily Californian - FAX (510)849-2803

San Francisco Chronicle/Examiner
San Jose Mercury News

Syndicates
----------
AP - Sacramento bureau
phone (916)448-9555
San Francisco bureau
phone (415)621-7432
FAX (415)552-9430

Reuters - SF (bureau?) (415)677-2559 ???

UPI

(Those without FAX numbers are those for which I found e-mail addresses
for press releases. But I think from experience that sending e-mail
press releases to mainstream print newspapers is a Bad Thing -- they seem
to be much more comfortable with FAX right now, so I would recommend
trying to find their FAX numbers instead of e-mail addresses.)

The only "essential" outlets for the present story, in my opinion, are
the AP SF bureau (and/or a Silicon Valley bureau, if they have one), the
_San Jose Mercury News_, and the _SF Chronicle/Examiner_. Local computer
magazines like _Computer Currents_ would also be a possibility; I didn't
see whether you had their e-mail address already.

Gary Rivlin, a reporter with a slight interest in Linux and a great hatred
of Microsoft, is now the editor of the East Bay Express, so I think he
would be more than a little interested in the story.

From MikeMillen@aol.com Tue Jan 26 16:29:49 1999
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Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:16:48 EST
To: bofh@linuxmafia.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Subject: Legal Representation
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Hi -

I am a litigation attorney with a technical background. I understand that on
2/15/99 your group plans on presenting itself at Microsoft's office and
requesting a refund. I would be willing to volunteer my professional services
by preparing a legal memorandum for your meeting and by personally
accompanying you to Microsoft's office. I would not charge for my memorandum
preparation or for any legal services rendered that day.

Let me know if you are interested.

- Mike

NOTE: If you currently have counsel, all further communication should be
through him or her.

Michael Millen
Attorney at Law
12 S. First St., St. 810
San Jose, CA 95113
(408) 998-3262
(408) 971-4580 [fax]
email: MikeMillen@aol.com

From owner-balug-talk@balug.org Mon Jan 25 21:05:57 1999
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Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:02:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Nathan Myers ncm@best.com
Message-Id: 199901260502.VAA28664@shell7.ba.best.com
To: shackle@start.david-fetter.com
Subject: Re: Linux laptop: what to buy for under $3000?
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> I'm looking for a laptop that:
>
> * Costs under US$3000.00.
> * Runs the X Windowing System without excessive aroundgeficken.
> * Has facilities for an external mouse, preferably PS/2.
> * Has a keyboard that's useable.
> * Has 10- or 100-baseT ethernet.

Marc Merlin and I both bought (different-model) Chembook laptops
at Hitron in Santa Clara. They offered a discount taking delivery
without Windows.

I bought a Chembook 3300T with CPU, display, battery, and disk
upgrades, coming out to $1700. Marc bought a 9780 for a bit more,
but still far less than $3000. Chris DiBona has a Sony Vaio at
only 3 lb. for less than $2K. I'd say that for $3K you expect
something really, really spiffy. You might also consider a Mac...

Expect to spend $10-$200 for an ethernet PC-Card. ($10 is for
an ne200 Duncan mentioned.)

You mainly need to decide whether you want a big screen or light weight.

Nathan Myers
ncm@cantrip.org

From kevralyn@netscape.net Mon Jan 25 18:39:56 1999
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Date: 25 Jan 99 18:39:31 PST
From: Chris Schoedel kevralyn@netscape.net
To: rick@hugin.imat.com
Subject: Good news about returning Windows!
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------NetAddressPart-00--=_Zcnf1520Sil7d4f33f2
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi! I have some good news! I'm forwarding you a copy of the response I =
got
from emachines, inc. They're refunding me a total of $26 for Win98 and
MSWorks. =

I think this is a good thing. One OEM who's willing to let us return Win=
dows.
(And their PCs are inexpensive, too.) =

Just thought I'd pass along the good news....

Chris Schoedel
kevralyn@netscape.net

____________________________________________________________________
More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at htt=
p://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail

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From: "Jim Mertz" JimMertz@Prodigy.net
To: "Chris Schoedel" kevralyn@netscape.net
Subject: Re: Mr. Mertz: Return of Software
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 15:08:18 -0600
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Miss Schoedel
Thanks for your e-mails and I apologize for not getting back to you sooner.
I have read the information that you shared with me and agree with you. I
have also investigated the OEM software refund price for you.

The total refund for the pre-bundled software will be $26.00. Please return
the books and restore CD's to the following address and I will have a check
mailed to you. Please include a return address for the check to be sent.
Address: Emachine
48400 Fremont Boulevard
Fremont, CA 94538
Att: Jim Mertz
Thanks again for purchasing an Emachine and let me know if you have any
other questions.
Jim Mertz
Vice President
Emachines
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Schoedel kevralyn@netscape.net
To: jimmertz@prodigy.net jimmertz@prodigy.net
Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 12:56 AM
Subject: Mr. Mertz: Return of Software

Mr. Mertz -

Attached, you will find a copy of the email I sent you several days ago. I
have not yet received any response to my letter, in which I stated once
again
my wish to return the Microsoft software that was included with the PC I
purchased from your company.

I would like to draw your attention to a few recent news articles which may
have some bearing on this situation - specifically, the one at zdnet:
http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2189833,00.html, and the
article
at Wired News, which is at the following location:
http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/17442.html .

Please note this paragraph from the Wired article:

"Attorney Erwin Shustak, chief litigator of securities and corporate
finance
at the law firm Shustak, Jalil, & Heller, said Bennett's effort may not
lead to immediate, dramatic consequences, but could give rise to an eventual
class-action lawsuit. Microsoft and PC makers "had a contract that clearly
said what [users] were entitled to do, and yet they didn't honor the
contract," Shustak said of Bennett's story. "They made it extremely
difficult
for him to obtain what he was supposed to obtain. I believe it was an
illusory
clause; they had no procedure sent up to honor it." "

I call your attention to this quote because I have been told by several
emachines Technical Support representatives that no procedure has been
established by emachines to facilitate the return of the pre-bundled
software,
and the refund of the Microsoft licensing fee, which was part of the cost of
the computer.

Let me state once again that I have been contacting your company in an
attempt
to return this software since mid-December. By your refusal to allow me to
return the software, you risk placing your company in breach of contract. I
am prepared to seek legal action in the Santa Clara County courts if this
situation is not resolved to my satisfaction within the next 28 days.

Please contact me as soon as possible so that we may reach an amicable
solution to this issue. You may call me at 408.241.4079, or respond to this
email.

Sincerely,

Christine Schoedel
kevralyn@netscape.net

____________________________________________________________________
More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at
http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail

------NetAddressPart-00--=_Zcnf1520Sil7d4f33f2--

From nick@zork.net Mon Jan 25 18:21:46 1999
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Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 18:29:09 -0800
From: Nick Moffitt nick@zork.net
To: rick@hugin.imat.com, dmarti@electriclichen.com,
Seth David Schoen schoen@zork.net
Subject: Spew
Message-ID: 19990125182909.B97@zork.net
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Well, I haven't received any copy from anyone yet, but here's the
first hundred lines or so I came up with for an intro. Flame on.

*NOTES*
Stress that we're not freeloading--we're returning unused software as
per the license agreement.

Use monetary reward as value judgement.

make your own news

repeat instructions in a terse (but crackmonkey) manner.

we are in a position not to care
*NOTES*

For some unfathomable reason, the press have taken to drooling all
over the idea of a Windows Refund day. It serves, perhaps, to occupy
their minds and divert them from the drab existence that modern
journalism is. It distracts them from the impeachments, antitrusts,
and bribings that have been the focus of the million monkeys'
keystrokes these past months.

Fine, I say. This is partly why I got into this as well. As Rick
Moen[1] always says, "If you don't like the news, make some!". While
the idea of returning a software product for a refund as specified in
the license isn't exactly newsworthy in most circumstances, the
politics of the current situation have raised more than a few
journalistic eyebrows.

There's something to be said for numbers, as well. I think that Seth
David Schoen[2] put it best in the following excerpt from Alice's
Restaurant[3]:

And the only reason I'm singing you this song now is 'cause
you may know somebody in a similar situation, or you may be in
a similar situation, and if you're in a situation like that
there's only one thing you can do, is walk into the Microsoft
regional office wherever you are, just walk in, say, "If you
do not agree to the terms of this EULA, Manufacturer and
Microsoft Licensing, Inc. ("MS") are unwilling to license the
SOFTWARE PRODUCT to you. In such event, you may not use or
copy the SOFTWARE PRODUCT, and you should promptly contact
Manufacturer for instructions on return of the unused
product(s) for a refund." And walk out.

You know, if one person, just one person does it they may
think he's really sick and they won't take him. And if two
people, two people do it, in harmony, they may think they're
both hackers and they won't take either of them. And if three
people do it, three, can you imagine, three people walking in,
quoting a line of Bill's End-User License Agreement, and
walking out. They may think it's an organization.

And can you, can you imagine fifty people a day, I said fifty
people a day, walking in, singing a bar of _Join Us Now and
Share the Software_ and walking out? And friends, they may
think it's a movement.

And that's what it is, the Windows Refund Anti-Massacre
Movement, and all you gotta do to join is show up February 15
in Foster City.

Well, now. That's a mighty fine sentiment, don't you think? All
those people who've never used the copy of Microsoft Windows that came
with their respective computers, and every one of them ready to follow
the instructions written on the shrinkwrap package. Why, you'd think
it's a movement.

The part that I just don't understand about all this is the idea that
this movement was started by "users of alternative operating systems".
Somehow, the press have got it in their heads that we the users of
Linux, BSD, OS/2, BeOS, and MODOS (to name a very few) started this
whole refund thing as a stunt to get either fame or fortune. Although
I, as a user of many open-source operating systems, would love to take
credit for the idea, the kudos goes entirely to Microsoft.

You see, they quite clearly asked us in big bold print (and not the
little tiny print at the bottom--no siree!) to return the unused
software for a refund. We are returning this software at Microsoft's
invitation, and we thank Microsoft for the opportunity!

This brings me back to my earlier statement. Microsoft is no stranger
to making news. I'm not surprised, what with the bad press lately
involving the antitrust trials and the increasingly inaccurately named
Windows 2000 (affectionately known in the trade press as "the W2K
problem"). Microsoft has been taking quite a beating in the trade
journals, and could use a good-natured PR stunt like this.

So although neither of my computers (a DEC Alpha running Linux and a
DECStation 5000/25 running NetBSD) came with software I didn't need, I
plan to show up alongside my Bay Area compatriots with a smile on my
face and an outstretched hand. I plan to thank Microsoft from the
bottom of my heart for inviting me and millions of other computer
users down there to unload the burden of this unnecessary software
package.

I ask, beg, and entreat all of you who participate in your own events
at various Microsoft offices to give a big warm hug to your local
Microsoft representative. Goodness knows he or she has deserved it!

I also have a request for those of you who venture forth to your OEMs
for your refund. These people are acting as agents for Microsoft in
this matter, but may not have been fully apprised of the situation.
There are transcripts all over the net documenting turnarounds of up
to 6 months in obtaining the refund. Many OEMs are also unfamiliar
with so-called alternative operating systems, and may become confused
at the idea of a PC that lacks a Microsoft OS.

Please treat these people gently and with great patience. They are
left with the burden handed them by Microsoft. In all good deals, it
seems, someone must take the bullet. It is indeed a pity, but in
their haste to provide us with a refund option, Microsoft has
neglected to arrange compensation to many of the OEMs for refunded
software packages.

Your OEM representative may become adamant that a refund is not in his
or her best interest. The best approach is to express your regret,
but to inform him or her that your arrangement is with Microsoft, and
that any arrangement involving the OEM is, unfortunately, irrelevant.
Perhaps it would be a nice gesture to purchase an extra keyboard or
two on the way out to keep the money from only flowing in one
direction.

--
* Progress (n.): The process through which Usenet has evolved from
smart people in front of dumb terminals to dumb people in front of
smart terminals. -- obs@burnout.demon.co.uk (obscurity)

From dmarti@barley.electriclichen.com Mon Jan 25 18:33:38 1999
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Mon, 25 Jan 1999 18:35:21 -0800
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 18:35:21 -0800
From: Don Marti dmarti@electriclichen.com
To: Matt Jensen mattj@thenoodle.com
Cc: deirdre@deirdre.org, fass@pitnet.net, Mark Bolzern Mark@LinuxMall.com,
nick@zork.net, rick@hugin.imat.com
Subject: Re: refund- Inquiry from an attorney
Message-ID: 19990125183521.B5725@electriclichen.com
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On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 06:18:31PM -0800, Matt Jensen wrote:

> Thanks for writing! I'll forward your inquiry on to the various
> organizers. Also, for future reference note that the refund center
> site has moved to http://www.linuxmall.com/refund/ . Thanks again,

I've just mailed him encouraging him to put up a web page regarding
his idea (a class-action lawsuit) That way, those people who are
interested in linking to it can do so.

In other news, I talked with representatives of two Linux vendors and
two un*x vendors today. I told them that if they want to encourage
their user groups to come out, that would be good, but we don't want
this to look like a bunch of software companies all piling on
Microsoft. After all, we're being sweet and polite to Microsoft
because they're giving us money. So I guess all I've been saying
today is "that's interesting, put up a web page about it."

The media still loves us -- I talked with the New York Times, PC Week,
and the San Francisco Chronicle today.

No word from Microsoft though.

--
Don Marti Electric Lichen L.L.C.
whois DM683 -rwxr--r-- Harrison Street
dmarti@electriclichen.com San Francisco, California USA

From mattj@thenoodle.com Mon Jan 25 18:19:41 1999
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Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 18:18:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Matt Jensen mattj@thenoodle.com
To: BCoburn@compuserve.com, deirdre@deirdre.org,
Don Marti dmarti@electriclichen.com, fass@pitnet.net,
Mark Bolzern Mark@LinuxMall.com, nick@zork.net, rick@hugin.imat.com
Subject: refund- Inquiry from an attorney
In-Reply-To: Pine.LNX.3.95.990125180606.9067A-100000@www.thenoodle.com
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Hi Barry,
Thanks for writing! I'll forward your inquiry on to the various
organizers. Also, for future reference note that the refund center
site has moved to http://www.linuxmall.com/refund/ . Thanks again,

-Matt

> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:26:35 -0500
> From: Barry Coburn 70252.107@compuserve.com
> To: admin@thenoodle.com, BCoburn@compuserve.com
> Subject: Windows refunds
>
> To: Matt Jensen
>
> I read an article today in The New York Times about Linux users
> considering making a request en masse for refunds for their bundled
> Windows operating systems. I am a lawyer in Washington, DC and very
> interested in the issue. Can you help put me in touch with anyone who'd
> like to discuss it with me? It seems to me there might be a class
> action in it.
>
> I can be reached by traditional telephone at (202) 628-4199 or e-mail at
> BCoburn@compuserve.com.
>
> Thanks,
> Barry Coburn
>
>
>

From mattj@thenoodle.com Mon Jan 25 17:42:38 1999
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Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 17:42:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Matt Jensen mattj@thenoodle.com
To: Deirdre Saoirse deirdre@deirdre.net
cc: Don Marti dmarti@electriclichen.com, Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com,
schoen@uclink4.berkeley.edu, Mark@LinuxMall.com, jal@briar.net
Subject: Re: Artwork...
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Also, you could contact the people that submitted sample images to
thenoodle.com. Their addresses and images are on the following page, which
should NOT be disseminated, as the layout is minimal and I won't be
maintaining it...

-private- http://www.thenoodle.com/refund/media/submissions.html

I'm sure some of them would be glad to help you.

-Matt

On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Deirdre Saoirse wrote:

> VERY good idea, thanks. I'll do just that. :)
>
> On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Don Marti wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 05:03:20PM -0800, Deirdre Saoirse wrote:
> >
> > > Is there someone who can come up with banners? I figure all those M$
> > > windoze surfers might start getting a clue if they saw how many web sites
> > > DID NOT run Windows. Probably they think most do.
> >
> > Sounds like an item for "ask slashdot.org" if you ask me -- I'm sure
> > you'll get GIMP fiends crawling out of the woodwork.
> >
> > --
> > Don Marti Electric Lichen L.L.C.
> > whois DM683 -rwxr--r-- Harrison Street
> > dmarti@electriclichen.com San Francisco, California USA
> >
>
> _Deirdre * http://disclaimer.deirdre.org * http://www.deirdre.net
> "The program installed quickly...then, of course, a reboot was required. I
> got my first sense of trouble when my system started spewing GPFs...this
> new beta shows some great features we are all sure to like in the final
> version." -- Elizabeth Powell Crowe, review of IE 5.0 Beta 2
>

From deirdre@deirdre.net Mon Jan 25 17:03:07 1999
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To: Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com
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jal@briar.net, dmarti@electriclichen.com
Subject: Artwork...
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BTW, someone mentioned something about having some artwork done.

I'd like to create a web banner campaign that says, basically,:

"This machine never ran Windows..."

An alternate version should add:

"...or any other Microsoft products"

There should be room on the right to add a logo for "The OS of One's
Choice."

I'm a) not an artist; b) unfamiliar with graphics tools under Linux. Best
to let the coders code and not try to be an art department.

Is there someone who can come up with banners? I figure all those M$
windoze surfers might start getting a clue if they saw how many web sites
DID NOT run Windows. Probably they think most do.

Does anyone know anyone less artistically-challenged than myself to take
up this feat?

_Deirdre * http://disclaimer.deirdre.org * http://www.deirdre.net
"The program installed quickly...then, of course, a reboot was required. I
got my first sense of trouble when my system started spewing GPFs...this
new beta shows some great features we are all sure to like in the final
version." -- Elizabeth Powell Crowe, review of IE 5.0 Beta 2

From bennye@sfgate.com Mon Jan 25 16:32:08 1999
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From: Benny Evangelista bennye@sfgate.com
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Hi , Rick
In my previous reply, I didn't realize that it was Don Marti who I contacted
originally about Windows Refund Day, so I was just trying to talk to more
people like you who were involved in this event. What's a good time to call
you about it?

Benny Evangelista
Staff Writer
San Francisco Chronicle
(415) 777-6051
bennye@sfgate.com

From nick@zork.net Tue Jan 26 12:24:58 1999
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From: Nick Moffitt nick@zork.net
To: rick@hugin.imat.com
Subject: [jackbrown@phillynews.com: More Press Coverage]
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----- Forwarded message from Jack Brown jackbrown@phillynews.com -----

From: Jack Brown jackbrown@phillynews.com
To: "'Nicholas Moffitt'" nick@zork.net
Subject: More Press Coverage
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:56:28 -0500
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211
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Nicholas: If you're interested, here's the URL for an article I wrote
on the controversy last Friday:
http://www.phillynews.com/inquirer/99/Jan/22/business/SOFT22.htm

-Jack Brown
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Oh I was young and easy in the mercy of his means.
Time held me green and dying,
Though I sang in my chains like the sea.
-Dylan Thomas.

----- End forwarded message -----

--
* Progress (n.): The process through which Usenet has evolved from
smart people in front of dumb terminals to dumb people in front of
smart terminals. -- obs@burnout.demon.co.uk (obscurity)

From owner-crackmonkey@zork.net Mon Jan 25 15:43:31 1999
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Mail-Followup-To: crackmonkey@crackmonkey.org
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Don Marti writes:

> On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 02:58:20PM -0800, Chris DiBona wrote:
>
> > The real question is this, if we don't accept an agreement with ms,
> > why should they uphold thier side of it.
>
> Because nothing except the license agreement keeps us from reverse
> engineering or decompiling the product. If we could refuse to accept
> the license agreement but still keep the software, we have the right
> to do anything that's permissible under copyright law, including Fair
> Use.
>
> We don't just have the _right_ to return the product for a refund,
> we're _required_ to return it for a refund because Microsoft refuses
> to allow anyone who's not a signatory to the agreement to retain
> possession of the software.
>
> (how's that? Rick could do better I'm sure.)

One could point out that Microsoft doesn't want to let anyone have the
software who is willing to disclose it to someone who is not properly
licensed.

Therefore, theoretically, Microsoft should never have given the software
to the OEMs unless the OEMs were going to make sure that the users would
accept the license. However, since the OEMs didn't make sure of that
first, _someone_ has made a serious mistake; so we must ask Microsoft
whose mistake that was (and it clearly wasn't ours).

--
Seth David Schoen / schoen@uclink4.berkeley.edu
He said, "This is what the king who will reign over you will do." And they
said, "Nay, but we will have a king over us, that we also may be like all the
nations." (1 Sam 8) http://ishmael.geecs.org/~sigma/ http://www.loyalty.org/
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From owner-crackmonkey@zork.net Mon Jan 25 15:55:27 1999
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Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 15:54:45 -0800
From: Don Marti dmarti@electriclichen.com
To: "Chris J. DiBona" chris@dibona.com
Cc: Nick Moffitt nick@zork.net, crackmonkey@crackmonkey.org
Subject: Re: [crackmonkey] bored? feel like messing with Microsoft?
Message-ID: 19990125155445.A4847@electriclichen.com
References: 19990125153818.B4629@electriclichen.com Pine.LNX.4.04.9901251518000.23002-100000@spider.precognitive.com
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Chris,

> Just as no license can bind you if you don't sign it or click it or
> whatever, how can we expect the msofties to honor it? Not that I'm
> not going to shove teh eula in thier face on the 15th or anything,
> but I find it funny.

The refund clause is a legal attempt to circumvent the essential
bogosity of the EULA. For more info on why shrinkwrap licenses are
bogus, see: http://www.microtimes.com/157/shrinkwrap.html

Without the refund clause, the EULA would definitely be bogus because
the buyer has no chance to read it before purchase. So if they refuse
to provide a refund, the entire EULA becomes void, which means that
regular copyright law kicks in. And just plain regular copyright law
isn't strong enough "protection" for proprietary software vendors,
even though it would not allow sharing of sofware among users.

From owner-crackmonkey@zork.net Mon Jan 25 15:45:29 1999
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From: "Chris J. DiBona" chris@dibona.com
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To: Don Marti dmarti@electriclichen.com
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But again, if that requirement is somethign that is dictated in a an
agreement that we fundamentally disagree with, that requirement is moot,
from our perspective, as is the rest of the contract. Thsi is why most
lawyers think click & envelope licences are bullshit.

Just as no license can bind you if you don't sign it or click it or
whatever, how can we expect the msofties to honor it? Not that I'm not
going to shove teh eula in thier face on the 15th or anything, but I find
it funny.

Chris

On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Don Marti wrote:
>
> We don't just have the _right_ to return the product for a refund,
> we're _required_ to return it for a refund because Microsoft refuses
> to allow anyone who's not a signatory to the agreement to retain
> possession of the software.
>

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From owner-crackmonkey@zork.net Mon Jan 25 15:38:47 1999
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Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 15:38:18 -0800
From: Don Marti dmarti@electriclichen.com
To: "Chris J. DiBona" chris@dibona.com
Cc: Nick Moffitt nick@zork.net, crackmonkey@crackmonkey.org
Subject: Re: [crackmonkey] bored? feel like messing with Microsoft?
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On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 02:58:20PM -0800, Chris DiBona wrote:

> The real question is this, if we don't accept an agreement with ms,
> why should they uphold thier side of it.

Because nothing except the license agreement keeps us from reverse
engineering or decompiling the product. If we could refuse to accept
the license agreement but still keep the software, we have the right
to do anything that's permissible under copyright law, including Fair
Use.

We don't just have the _right_ to return the product for a refund,
we're _required_ to return it for a refund because Microsoft refuses
to allow anyone who's not a signatory to the agreement to retain
possession of the software.

(how's that? Rick could do better I'm sure.)

From owner-crackmonkey@zork.net Mon Jan 25 13:41:46 1999
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Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:41:19 -0800
From: Don Marti dmarti@electriclichen.com
To: crackmonkey@crackmonkey.org
Subject: Re: [crackmonkey] bored? feel like messing with Microsoft?
Message-ID: 19990125134119.A3548@electriclichen.com
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On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 12:58:11PM -0800, Seth David Schoen wrote:
>
> http://www.microsoft.com/piracy/licensing/matrix.htm
>
> **** End User License Agreements (EULAs) always accompany products in
> online format. Historically a paper EULA has accompanied products.
> Beginning in 1998, a number of Microsoft products are being
> distributed without a paper EULA. Most notably, the Windows 98 OEM
> EULA is online only.
>
> That doesn't necessarily mean that one can find it on the web. :-)

I'm listening to Microsoft product information hold music right now on
speakerphone. Very soothing.

Aaah, we have an answer. And I'm introducing myself to a guy named
Andrew.

I'm telling Andrew that I'm considering purchasing a laptop computer
that comes with Windows 98, and I'm interested in seeing the End User
License Agreement

Andrew tells me that he's checking the Microsoft web site. (which I
already did this morning, that's why I'm calling.)

sfx: clicking keyboard on Andrew's end.

Andrew is asking if I mind if he puts me on hold for a minute.

More Microsoft hold music. Ow, my neck is starting to hurt, doing the
holding-phone-against-shoulder thing. Time to put Andrew back on
speakerphone. Oh fuck. Dial tone.

I'm calling again.

800-426-9400 (and I remember the options in the voicemail maze: 2, 7,
5, 2)

Now I'm talking with a guy named Lamont (sp?), who is telling me that
"That software is actually produced by that computer
manufacturer.... The license agreements are going to be different."

I ask: Are the license agreements different from manufacturer to
manufacturer?

"A slight bit different."

So I have to go to the OEM to get the EULA, according to this guy.
But the other guy was going to find it for me. Hmmm, anyone else care
to try?

From jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com Mon Jan 25 11:37:02 1999
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Message-ID: 19990125113829.A29258@mooseriver.com
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:38:29 -0800
From: Josef Grosch jgrosch@mooseriver.com
To: rick@linuxmafia.com
Subject: Windows refund day
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Rick,

we didn't get to talk about the windows refund day you are putting
together. Do you have room for FreeBSD people? Can we pass out flyers and
CDs (can't teach an old dog new tricks ?) ? I'd like to see if Nicole and
I can pull together a FreeBSD contingent for Feb. 15.

Josef

--
Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0
jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses

From dmarti@barley.electriclichen.com Mon Jan 25 10:46:57 1999
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Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:48:50 -0800
From: Don Marti dmarti@electriclichen.com
To: Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com
Subject: Re: Another co-conspirator, and coverage page
Message-ID: 19990125104850.D1981@electriclichen.com
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Rick,

> I had an exchange of e-mail with Jerry Fass fass@pitnet.net, maintainer
> of the Windows Refund page at Mozilla Open Directory. He seems a good
> guy, so you-all might add him to your list of co-conspirators.

Me too -- I sent him a comment from the "mail editor" page and heard
back from him.

> I was reaching him to try to make his press-coverage list more complete,
> and have now sent him all URLs.

Excellent.

> Also, I wrote back to the fellow who offered the banner .gif (noted on
> the coverage page), and attempted to sweet-talk him into doing it without
> "Windoze", etc.

Just talked with Drew Clark at the National Journal of Technology
Daily, so you might add that to the list of "coverage expected from."
And I asked Allison Huynh of Penguin Computing to chase down the Wall
St. Journal guy.

--
Don Marti Electric Lichen L.L.C.
whois DM683 -rwxr--r-- Harrison Street
dmarti@electriclichen.com San Francisco, California USA

From dballing@yahoo-inc.com Mon Jan 25 10:43:10 1999
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Rick,

I'm there. I've got an NT workstation package still in the shrink-wrap
from when I purchased a PC a while back (over a year ago).

Let me know where, when, etc. etc.

-----------------------------------------------------
Derek Balling "Bill Gates is a monocle and
Technical Yahoo! a white fluffy cat away from
408-530-5062 being a villain in the next
Do You Yahoo!? Bond Film!" - Dennis Miller
-----------------------------------------------------

From Jeff_Walsh@infoworld.com Mon Jan 25 09:33:58 1999
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When I interviewed a Microsoft spokesperson for my story in InfoWorld, they
told me it wasn't their issue because the OEMs were free to include any
operating system, and users selected OEMs who sold Windows machines. They
said (and I didn't go down this path in the story, so I can't help you
much) that there are smaller OEMs who will sell a computer with no OS.

And, yes, I do realize there is far more of a push from MS than they
indicated in that quote.

Peace,

Jeff

(Embedded image
moved to file: Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com
pic21930.pcx) 01/24/99 05:16 PM

To: Jeff Walsh/IWP
cc:
Subject: Re: Why go to Microsoft?

Jeff --

Several reasons could be cited -- but perhaps the most significant
is that, overwhelmingly, OEMs have refused to honor ther refund
obligation, because Microsoft will not reimburse them.

> Throughout the EULA, Manufacturer refers to the hardware OEM
> (Compaq, Dell, etc.).

A partial truth: The licensor is actually Microsoft Licensing,
Inc., and the OEM is effectively their agent. We feel Microsoft will
agree that it's in everyone's interest, including its own, to
satisfy users' legitimate refund claims _directly_, in this case.

--
Cheers, Linux: It is now safe to turn on your computer.
Rick Moen
rick (at) linuxmafia.com

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--0__=j6W9FpzHYfwwhmD4bEkXEwT1LXDopidlwgqOeeiWKmnTS3FTBlGdjY5Q--

From lfr@knowledgemann.com Sun Jan 24 23:45:17 1999
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From: Lars Frohn lfr@knowledgemann.com
To: rick@linuxmafia.com
Subject: return of unused packaged win95
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 08:47:56 +0100
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I would very much like to be posted regarding the return of unused win95/98,
as I have app. 350 pcs. which were never used. All machines were equipped
with other operating systems (fully paid for), and I did not know the
possibilities of the refund.

kind regards

lars

From WindWalker@peacefire.org Sun Jan 24 18:57:56 1999
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In June I will be purchasing a laptop. Likely it will come from an OEM
like Dell, which will pre-install Windows 98 on it. I plan to only use
LinuX on that laptop and will not agree to the Microsoft Windows ELUA.
I am very interested in getting a refund for the license of Windows that
I will pay for but never use.

-Sean Wieland

--
+-----=[export-a-crypto-system-sig RSA-3-lines-PERL]=-----+
|#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj|
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|lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/) |
+---------------------------------------------------------+
"Most people would rather die than think, and most people do."
-- Bertrand Russell

From dmarti@barley.electriclichen.com Sun Jan 24 18:27:20 1999
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Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 18:29:06 -0800
From: Don Marti dmarti@electriclichen.com
To: Ray Anderson ray@sco.COM, David Eyes davidey@sco.COM
Cc: Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com,
"Nickels Moffitt, King of the Low Rollers" nick@zork.net
Subject: Windows Refund Day
Message-ID: 19990124182906.A27202@electriclichen.com
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Ray and David,

On Friday, Rick Moen let me know about Ray's mail reflecting SCO's
interest in participating in Windows Refund Day.

It would be great for the TV cameras to see a group of people under
the SCO banner along with the Linux/Open Source group Rick is
organizing.

I hope you can put out the word to the SCO user groups. And I'm sure
Rick will link to the appropriate SCO Windows Refund Day page.

We're probably going to see a lot of Linux T-shirts there, and I think
some people are doing Linux shirts specifically for the event, so you
might want to have some SCO shirts printed up too.

Also, to help preserve the friendly festive atmosphere (we're not mad,
we just want our refund) it would be great if you could get some of
the famous musical SCO hackers together on a flatbed truck to play
some good music. Ideally, surf music in honor of your Santa Cruz
heritage. The truck might be a good place for the SCO user group
banner, too.

If you have any questions please mail me or call me at 415-308-7272.
You can send announcements to Nick Moffitt nick@zork.net for the
Windows Refund Newsletter.

Hope to see you there.

--
Don Marti Electric Lichen L.L.C.
whois DM683 -rwxr--r-- Harrison Street
dmarti@electriclichen.com San Francisco, California USA

From schoen@requiem.reshall.berkeley.edu Sun Jan 24 17:54:05 1999
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Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 17:43:32 -0800
From: Seth David Schoen schoen@uclink4.Berkeley.EDU
To: Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com, deirdre@deirdre.net, Mark@LinuxMall.com,
jal@briar.net, mattj@thenoodle.com
Cc: dmarti@electriclichen.com, nick@zork.net
Subject: Re: (forw) Re: Why go to Microsoft?
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I just got the message from Rick showing how he answered the question about
why we should go to Microsoft.

I like his focus, but I think it's important to emphasize especially that
people have _already repeatedly tried_ to get OEMs to honor the EULA clause,
and that they uniformly professed unfamiliarity or unwillingness to comply.
Therefore, we are not just _speculating_ that Microsoft would rather
handle this -- we are also advising Microsoft that we need its assistance
to resolve our requests because Microsoft's agents seem to be a little
unclear on the policy. :-)

>From the current version of my draft press release:

>Geoffrey Bennett, an Australian computer user, reported last week that he
>had persuaded a computer vendor there to give him a full refund for his unused
>copy of the Microsoft Windows operating system. But users here who tried to
>request such a refund from their computer manufacturers said that the
>manufacturers claimed unfamiliarity with the refund offer. As a result,
>computer professionals here who don't use Windows have decided to ask
>Microsoft why American OEMs won't honor the offer, and whether Microsoft will
>make good on the refund clause in the EULA.
>
>Since the manufacturers were "acting as agent for Microsoft," said Rick
>Moen, a San Francisco computer professional, "we feel it's in Microsoft's,
>the OEM's, and the users' interest to have this refund handled efficiently,
>directly through Microsoft, and we are estimating they will agree."

I don't think that the question of "why OEMs won't honor the offer" is _too_
anti-trustish: as an opponent of the anti-trust suit, it still strikes me
as a very pressing question to find out "why OEMs won't honor the offer".
And Microsoft, we can emphasize, is the only one who can give us the answer
to that question.

It might be a good idea to ask Windows Refund Day participants to call up
their OEMs personally, if they have not already done so, just to confirm
that the OEMs have no idea whatsoever what the EULA is talking about.
This might put the event on a much more concrete foundation, from the point
of view of the media.

From dmarti@barley.electriclichen.com Sun Jan 24 12:44:11 1999
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Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 12:46:02 -0800
From: Don Marti dmarti@electriclichen.com
To: Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com
Subject: more strategy [dmarti@electriclichen.com: Re: refund- Re: After the 15th...]
Message-ID: 19990124124602.D26514@electriclichen.com
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----- Forwarded message from Don Marti dmarti@electriclichen.com -----

> Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 12:45:05 -0800
> From: Don Marti dmarti@electriclichen.com
> To: Matt Jensen mattj@thenoodle.com
> Cc: Tom lattin96@InfoAve.Net
> Subject: Re: refund- Re: After the 15th...
>
> Matt and Tom,
>
> On Sun, Jan 24, 1999 at 02:06:36AM -0800, Matt Jensen wrote:
>
> > Thanks for writing, glad you're into the idea :-) I think you're right
> > that something probably needs to happen after the 15th, too, be it
> > monthly, daily, or something else. Perhaps contingency plans can be made
> > to prepare for possible outcomes on the 15th (like if Microsoft says this
> > or that).
>
> If we win -- which I would define as "everyone with a valid claim gets
> a refund for at least the price of the latest version of Red Hat plus
> shipping" then we've won and can go home.
>
> Contingency plans for if we don't win on the 15th depend on how many
> warm bodies we have in front of Microsoft offices -- nothing more,
> nothing less. If we have too few, we look foolish, Microsoft looks
> popular and correct, and we'll have to crawl away and lick our wounds.
> That would represent failure, and I would encourage people to blame
> _me_ to try to make it reflect less badly on Linux. The best strategy
> would be for me to be the goat here if things get fucked up, and for
> someone else to take over.
>
> If we have enough people to look effective for the TV cameras, but
> Microsoft doesn't come through, we can reschedule for the following
> month and embarass them. The media will help us -- they'll say
> "Windows is unpopular but Microsoft's shady back-room deals with OEMs
> are forcing these people to buy it." (The media love us BTW, so all
> we have to do is fill those parking lots.)
>
> So tell your friends to be there.
>
> Tom wrote:
> > > So I would like to start a
> > > channel for linux help staffed by people who want to help others. And
> > > let the world know if you can get to #linuxhelp we will be there for
> > > you.
>
> Please run off some "where to go for Linux support" fliers and hand
> them out at the event to publicize your channel. You'll be able to do
> a lot of good.
>
> --
> Don Marti Electric Lichen L.L.C.
> whois DM683 -rwxr--r-- Harrison Street
> dmarti@electriclichen.com San Francisco, California USA

From dmarti@barley.electriclichen.com Sun Jan 24 13:09:12 1999
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Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 13:10:52 -0800
From: Don Marti dmarti@electriclichen.com
To: Matt Jensen mattj@thenoodle.com
Cc: Mark Bolzern Mark@LinuxMall.com, Nick Moffitt nick@zork.net,
deirdre@deirdre.org, Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com
Subject: Re: refund- Strategy: What are your asking of MS?
Message-ID: 19990124131052.E26514@electriclichen.com
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On Sat, Jan 23, 1999 at 10:55:47PM -0800, Matt Jensen wrote:

> 1. OEMs are "free" to include any OS they want on their machines.
>
> 2. The refund clause means what the refund people say, but you have to
> take it up with your OEM.
>
> Is that how you read MS, too? I expect their lawyers stayed up all night
> to boil it down to these two "talking points", and they'll continue to use
> them until they no longer seem effective.

Yes, this is absolutely the course that Adam Sohn is sticking to in
public. Within Microsoft, there are differences of opinion.

The sensible people there understand that it would be easy for us to
say "OEM freedom is bullshit -- Microsoft would apply pressure on any
OEM that didn't enforce a Windows-only policy." We wouldn't even have
to say it -- the media will call Jamie Love (Ralph Nader's head
Microsoft watcher) and he'll say it for us.

So the sensible people at Microsoft want to accomodate us somehow
without giving away a lot of money to people who claim they're no
longer running Windows but reinstall it from an illegal copy after
getting their refund.

> Regarding #2, we must ask: what exactly does everyone want out of
> this?

Here's what I want. I want at least one person at each Microsoft
office we hit to get a refund check that he or she can show to the TV
cameras. That's it. I want to be able to declare victory and go
home.

I think that this will serve one of two long-term goals, either of
which would work for me, but I don't want to get too complicated on
the 15th.

Personally, I'd consider either one of the following a permanent win:

1. Some people get refunds on the 15th. Microsoft itself, or several
OEMs in all classes of systems (especially laptops) announce(s)
convenient ways for customers to exercise their rights under the
refund clause indefinitely. The amount of the refund is at least the
price of Red Hat Linux direct from Red Hat Software, plus shipping.
(Yes, Mark, I know you have it at a discount...)

2. Some people get refunds on the 15th. Microsoft announces that it
will pay refunds until a certain date. Before that date, several OEMs
in all classes of systems (especially laptops) announce the
availability of high-quality systems without Microsoft Windows. (Nude
systems should be cheaper than the same systems with Windows by at
least the price of Red Hat Linux direct from Red Hat, plus shipping.
Systems bundled with a _fully supported_ open-source OS can be the
same price.)

> Choose a specific big picture goal, then find the best turns of
> phrase to frame the debate in our terms. Thanks,

Excellent idea. Everyone should visualize what he or she would
consider a "we've won, I can go home" situation. And if Microsoft
offers something that meets those conditions, declare victory and go
home. I can't tell everyone what his or her goals should be, but keep
it simple and we'll all win.

--
Don Marti Electric Lichen L.L.C.
whois DM683 -rwxr--r-- Harrison Street
dmarti@electriclichen.com San Francisco, California USA

From deirdre@rockhopper.deirdre.org Sat Jan 23 10:35:30 1999
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From: Deirdre Saoirse deirdre@deirdre.net
Reply-To: deirdre@deirdre.net
To: Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com, dmarti@electriclichen.com, nick@zork.net
Subject: Los Angeles area coordinator
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 10:29:23 -0800
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Jeff Loomis jal@briar.net has volunteered to coordinate efforts for the Los
Angeles area for 2/15. He'll be putting up a web page shortly; until then, add
him to your lists.

Heads up: I got an email this morning from former Usenet Kook of the Month Joan
"Bill Gates is the Antichrist" Brewer, so just be aware that this person has a
long history of incoherent babbling about M$ and Bill.

--
_Deirdre * http://disclaimer.deirdre.org * http://www.deirdre.net
"The program installed quickly...then, of course, a reboot was required. I
got my first sense of trouble when my system started spewing GPFs...this
new beta shows some great features we are all sure to like in the final
version." -- Elizabeth Powell Crowe, review of IE 5.0 Beta 2

From hwinds@warthog.com Sat Jan 23 09:50:52 1999
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From: "heather" hwinds@warthog.com
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If we cannot make it to Foster City (the commute is a bear from Dallas), is there another
way we can support this movement?

Heather Windsor
"OS/2: Operate at a higher level."

***********************************
Heather Reisig Windsor
email: hwinds@warthog.com

From moverby@hitachi-deco.com Sun Jan 24 19:17:06 1999
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Rick Moen wrote:
>
> Michael, my apologies for any confusion.
>
> Clearly, you do _not_ have to run an open-source OS to qualify
> for refund under the EULA. (I'm also an OS/2 fan, by the way.)
>
> The wording on http://linuxmafia.com/refund/ reflects the fact that
> we _happen to be open-source activists_. Given that the response was
> turning out to be overwhelming, we decided to concentrate _our_ efforts
> on users of Linux and the BSD variants. The Bay Area's open-source
> community is huge and vocal: Believe me, we're already having a
> difficult time coordinating all of them.
>
> Naturally, we recognise that other OS communities may wish to
> carry out similar initiatives (and hope they do!). We not only
> approve, but will do what we can to help, which so far has meant
> sharing of information and linking to other people's Web sites.
> One Windows NT (!) representative asked for (and received) our
> help organising to carry out mass returns of bundled, unused
> Win98 software.
>
> If you or anyone else would like to set up a Web page to
> coordinate Windows returns by OS/2 users, we will of course
> likewise be delighted to help -- and to render any other
> assistance.
>
> You ask about our goal. Our goal is very specific and focussed:
> It is the return of unused, unwanted, bundled Windows software by
> PC buyers in the open-source community who reject the EULA --
> as required and specified by the EULA itself. This is not a
> "cause", just the assertion of contractual rights.
>
> I stand ready to link to your Web page. Just send the URL,
> and I'll have it referenced ASAP.
>
> --
> Cheers, Linux: It is now safe to turn on your computer.
> Rick Moen
> rick (at) linuxmafia.com
Thank you so much for your reply. As far as the mass / corporate returns
of unused copies of win9x are concerned, I have two dozen copies of that
object under question as well. My Japanese supervisors will provide me
with the answer to the questions arising from the disposal of those
objects. I am hoping that the asnwer will be in the affirmative. I am
also presently awaiting replies to my multiple queries regarding Web
page space for the OS/2 aspect of this issue (the feeling 'round here is
that utilizing our server may represent a "conflict of interest" of some
kind). I shall keep you posted on my progress surrounding this issue and
its' promotion. Again, thank you very much for your clarification
relating to the questions I asked.
Michael Overby.

From owner-svlug@svlug.svlug.org Fri Jan 22 21:23:57 1999
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Subject: Re: [svlug] "Windows Refund"
References: 19990123003415.4571.qmail@inow.com
199901230324.TAA32074@belvdere.vip.best.com
From: John Conover conover@inow.com
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David E. Fox writes:
> > 10,000,000 (by some counts,) Linux'en, at $100 apiece, thats a billion
> > bucks.
>
> Assuming of course that each person who is running one of those
> copies of Linux chose it instead of paying a license to MS, or
> avoided paying such a license to MS. They would have to ensure,
> of course, that the system they run Linux on did not have the
> Windows 'tax' applied to it (built it themselves). Or, perhaps
> these users simply did not choose to upgrade either to windows
> 3.1, or 95, or 98. If we just restrict the impact of each
> linuxer avoiding paying $100 (cost of license for Win98) it
> still could be fairly high (personally, I had a valid license
> for Win3.1 and MSDOSes up to 5.0 or so but I discovered Linux
> and abandoned MS long before Windows 95 came out, so I suppose
> MS didn't get $200 from me), although I don't think it is as
> high as a billion dollars.
>

Oh, David, it was just some ironic humor-thus the Dilbert comment. I
don't think many know about it, and of those that do, most won't
exercise it, IMHO. But if it got into the press it might be something
like "Goliath=MS has potential billion buck ... from David=Linux
... who they admit is a competitor." And things like that are almost
as good as the President and Monica for capturing eye balls.

It kind of puts the MS executives between a rock and a hard spot. They
have the DOJ thing going, so they have to be careful how they handle
it. If they don't honor it, there might be statutory damages under
consumer protection statutes, ie., Magnuson Moss, and assorted state
equivalents-with all the assorted media issues. However, if they do
honor it, it could get the press' attention for potentially having to
shell out big bucks-and spook the shareholders.

I guess that's why MS execs make the big bucks.

It is kind of interesting that they "released" that it was only a "PR
stunt," which is kind of antagonistic. Probably their best game plan
would have been to handle it as quietly as possible by cheerfully
paying off those that asked, which I would imagine that they know
would be very few-and keep it as low key as possible. And then, if
that failed, or got out of control, exercise the option of making the
press release. I don't know. I'm just guessing. Interesting that they
didn't handle it that way. Maybe they are confident in being able to
exercise influence over the media. I don't know.

John

John Conover, 631 Lamont Ct., Campbell, CA., 95008, USA.
VOX 408.370.2688, FAX 408.379.9602
conover@inow.com, http://www2.inow.com/~conover/john.html

--
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From umsongb@electra.cc.umanitoba.ca Sat Jan 23 11:22:44 1999
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From: Benjamin Song umsongb@electra.cc.umanitoba.ca
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Greetings,

It's good to know there is a way to get my money back for something I
never use. I've been using Linux for 2 year, and I bought this Toshiba
Notebook few month ago.

I'd like to get a refund for the Windows98, but the thing is, it's part
of the recovery CD.

I was wondering if I have to turn in the entire recovery disk in case I
want a refund? But if something went wrong with my Notebook and I have
to reset my Notebook then what should I use after I turn in the Recovery
CD?

Please let me know what I could do. I believe you'd came up with this
kind of scenario already, and have some sort of solution to this.

Sincerely,
--
Benjamin W. Song
email: umsongb@mail.cc.umanitoba.ca
ICQ #: 13203526
phone: 204-261-3452
F a x: 204-261-3452

From scottm@kntv.com Fri Jan 22 17:20:17 1999
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Rick, I'll check back at your website, but could you please keep me updated
on your plans? I represent wb20 in San Francisco, kntv in San Jose and the
show "technow" which runs on both channels.

Scott

____________________
Scott McGrew
technology reporter
KBWB San Francisco
KNTV San Jose

(408) 975 3492
fax (408) 296 1530
on air email: techwiz@wb20.com
business email: scottm@kntv.com

please send press materials to
645 Park Ave
San Jose CA 95110

From mdw@bhikku.CS.Berkeley.EDU Fri Jan 22 16:09:56 1999
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To: bofh@linuxmafia.com
Subject: Linux Refund Day
From: Matt Welsh mdw@cs.berkeley.edu
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I believe that one can only request refunds from the OEM which one
bought a Windows-based PC from; Microsoft can't give you a refund
directly.

From beale@shell3.ba.best.com Fri Jan 22 15:15:47 1999
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From: "John P. Beale" beale@best.com
Message-Id: 199901222316.PAA09151@shell3.ba.best.com
Subject: video opportunities on Refund Day
To: bofh@linuxmafia.com
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 15:16:12 -0800 (PST)
Cc: beale@shell3.ba.best.com (John P. Beale)
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Hi Rick,

You may remember me from my photos of Linus at the SVLUG meeting or the
shots from the Great Linux Revolt or "Launch Win98" events. I'm trying to
decide if it will be worthwhile to drop by Foster City on Feb. 15th with a
still or video camera. My guess is the action inside the office isn't
going to be very exciting; consisting of some unfortunate staffer reciting
in a monotone that Microsoft Corp. does not issue refunds and that your
licence agreement specifies the OEM as the responsible party, next
please. Also I can't help but wonder if they won't hire security that day
to keep out cameras out of their office alltogether.

This leaves an outdoor shot of the extent of the gathered crowd as the
primary interest, plus close-ups showing the diversity of the free-software
movement, and any small plush animals which may have found their way to the
event.

If your vision of the event differs in any significant way, I'd be
interested to hear of it.

regards,
john
beale@best.com
http://www.best.com/~beale

From dmarti@barley.electriclichen.com Fri Jan 22 15:12:38 1999
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Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 15:14:26 -0800
From: Don Marti dmarti@electriclichen.com
To: Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com
Cc: deirdre@deirdre.cx, mark@linuxmall.com, deirdre@deirdre.net, nick@zork.net
Subject: Re: More press
Message-ID: 19990122151426.F16357@electriclichen.com
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On Fri, Jan 22, 1999 at 02:53:52PM -0800, Rick Moen wrote:

> Interesting idea about the banner, and I'm still thinking about
> that, but thought you might want to hear about our reporter friend,
> first.

A banner campaign is a good idea, I think. (Hiawatha Bray's web site
is at: http://www.monitortan.com/ BTW) But the physical, tangible
presence at their place and in their face is still most important. We
want them to see, hear, and smell us. And let them know we smell
their fear.

In other media news, I'm trying to get back in touch with a guy at the
Wall St. Journal about a story, and inside Microsoft the discussions
of how to handle the refund and the protest are continuing -- things
have been relatively quiet on our side so far so that we don't
embarrass the reasonable faction there.

Adam Sohn, Microsoft's pinhead flak, has dangled the threat of a
counter-demonstration, which we can expect would be heavily subsidized
by Microsoft (like the sushi at Windows NT user group meetings in the
Bay Area.) I think that as long as the media know how the
counter-demonstrators have been paid off it won't hurt us, but it
doesn't hurt to have as many warm bodies there for our side as
possible.

Just thinking out loud (what else is new) local pages might want to
add a line like "we're getting a lot of potential participants, and
we'd like to line up marshals to keep everything cool -- please mail
us." That would (1) let outside observers know we're coming in
_strength_ and emphasize the fact that we're going to be peaceful. I
can line up someone to make armbands for marshals in the Bay Area
group, I think.

--
Don Marti Electric Lichen L.L.C.
whois DM683 -rwxr--r-- Harrison Street
dmarti@electriclichen.com San Francisco, California USA

From presta@my-dejanews.com Fri Jan 22 15:36:17 1999
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Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 22:49:06 -0000
From: "Guy Schackman" presta@my-dejanews.com
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Hello,

I've been following the Windows Refund movement with interest. Here's a scenario that may effect even more users: Say you buy a PC with Win95 or 98 installed, and you intend to install WinNT on the machine right away. It seems the same logic would apply--why would you have to pay for Win95/98 if it'll never be used?

Good luck

Guy Schackman
presta@my-dejanews.com

-----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums

From watha@monitortan.com Fri Jan 22 12:42:58 1999
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Rick, you've spent too many late nights at CoffeeNet! Please tell me
more...quick!

Hiawatha Bray
Tech Reporter
Boston Globe
P.O. Box 2378
135 Morrissey Blvd.
Boston, MA 02107 USA
617-929-3119
bray@globe.com
watha@monitortan.com
http://www.monitortan.com
ICQ 28242889

From RColbert@mailhost.accolade.com Fri Jan 22 10:50:24 1999
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From: Robert Colbert RColbert@mailhost.accolade.com
To: "'bofh@linuxmafia.com'" bofh@linuxmafia.com
Subject: I want to attend...
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 10:53:16 -0800
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Just letting you know that I want to attend on Refund Day. I can't "not use"
Microsoft products since I have already booted the machines with the OS
preinstalled, but I'd really like to come out and see how things go on Feb
15. I doubt that I'd even really say very much, I just want to watch. If I
could, though, I would be participating in the actual refund...but I have no
machines that I can honestly say fit the descriptions posted (never been
booted with Windows installed). I run Red Hat Linux 5.1 at home, but that
machine has made use of the copy of Windows that was preinstalled (thus, I
accpeted the terms of the license agreement and am not entitled to the
refund).

So, as more information is available, I am giving you permission to add me
to a mailing list or whatever so that I can know the when-and-where of the
event.

Thanks in advance!

-Rob Colbert
rcolbert@accolade.com
www.accolade.com
(408) 985-1700 x506

From dmarti@barley.electriclichen.com Fri Jan 22 10:37:34 1999
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Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 10:39:22 -0800
From: Don Marti dmarti@electriclichen.com
To: Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com
Cc: Seth David Schoen schoen@uclink4.Berkeley.EDU
Subject: Re: Refund FAQ
Message-ID: 19990122103922.A16021@electriclichen.com
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On Fri, Jan 22, 1999 at 03:41:55AM -0800, Rick Moen wrote:

> That's another campaign. One battle at a time.

I agree. Right now, Microsoft is turning up the heat on us a little,
to try to make us do something stupid. We don't want to provoke the
hard-liners within Microsoft, so we can't fly the "end
bundling/linking" flag too obviously. But if some "faction" like
Seth's wants to do so, we can link to it. We want to be as simple as
possible and have a well-defined objective.

The next step in this whole thing is for Microsoft to back off a
little and make some nice conciliatory noises about clarifying their
relationships with the OEMs. This should happen today or Monday at
the latest.

If Microsoft continues to wave the "it's up to the OEM, not us" flag,
two things are going to happen.

First, Nader's people are going to get involved -- they're on the
sidelines now, it looks like. Second, many Windows Refund Day sites
will begin to take the position that it's a waste of time to deal with
the OEM because the OEM is only a courtier who can't risk offending
Microsoft. Completely dismissing the OEM.

This can only get the OEMs mad, so it's far better to get a friendly
statement out of Microsoft now.

So, Seth, I'd look forward to seeing a "challenge bundling" site from
you, and Rick, if you want to link to it from a bundling-related
question in the FAQ, that would IMHO be better than diluting the
"mainstream" Refund Day effort.

> I'll grant that the point bears some discussion, even though my
> instincts say no. I'd encourage you to bring up the matter with Don
> Marti, who is effectively chief strategist.

Who, me? As I said, it's pretty clear that our strategy depends on
Microsoft's next move. If they don't play along as I expect, who is
ready to take a beating and/or an arrest over this? (We have a few
already, so no pressure.)

--
Don Marti Electric Lichen L.L.C.
whois DM683 -rwxr--r-- Harrison Street
dmarti@electriclichen.com San Francisco, California USA

From fmc@sfo.harbinger.com Fri Jan 22 09:27:41 1999
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From: Fred Curiel fmc@sfo.harbinger.com
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Awesome! So my question is if my corporation purchased the computer
and we are only running
Linux on it can my corp get a refund if we never used Windows on it?

fmc

--
Frederick M. Curiel Manager of Networking and
Harbinger Corporation Open Systems
Email: Frederick.Curiel@Harbinger.com Voice: 925 688 2825
web: http://www.Harbinger.com Fax: 925 688 2895

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Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 08:27:23 -0800 (PST)
From: Nick Sayer nsayer@quack.kfu.com
Message-Id: 199901221627.IAA14167@quack.kfu.com
To: bofh@linuxmafia.com
Subject: Windows Refund Day question
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I just recently bought a Dell Insperion 3500. It came with Works Suite 99,
and I had no option to not get it (apart from spending more to get the
Office bundle instead).

I run FreeBSD and Windows 98 on this machine. I kept windows because the
DVD decoder card is not supported under anything else. I therefore can't
participate in so far as getting a refund for Windows.

But Works has its own EULA, which also has the magic refund language.
I read the EULA before ever running any of the software components
of Works, "became horrified" and promptly de-installed the whole
kit and kaboodle. I have everything that came in the shrink-wrapped
Works bundle (I had to open it to read the EULA, but the contents are
intact otherwise), and I swear before heaven and God that I have not
used the media in any way apart from deinstalling the pre-load on my
machine (oddly, removing Works itself demanded that I insert CD #1.
None of the media is or was sealed in any way, other than inside of
the outer shrinkwrap which contained the EULA).

May I participate in as much as I don't want Works?

From @ca180.x.co.uk:ray@sco.COM Fri Jan 22 06:22:42 1999
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Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:23:21 +0000
To: bofh@linuxmafia.com
From: Ray Anderson ray@sco.COM
Subject: Windows Refund
Cc: davidey@sco.COM
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Rick,

Every year, SCO sells about 300,000+ copies of UnixWare or OpenServer. In
addition, over the last year we also supplied 100,000 or so "free Unix"
licenses http://www.sco.com/freeunix/ so there is a very good chance that
there are a few hundred thousand people who never used Windows on their
PC's and may be interested in a refund.

Perhaps you are missing a huge number of people who might be interested in
your rally, or in your helping them save money.

If you have any ideas, you might want to speak to David Eyes
mailto:davidey@scol.com who looks after Free Unix and Open Source at SCO.

Ray
P.S. Feel free to add a link in http://linuxmafia.com/refund/ to the free
unix site or www.sco.com

Good luck!

From riel@nl.linux.org Fri Jan 22 04:33:26 1999
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From: Rik van Riel riel@nl.linux.org
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To: rick0398@hugin.imat.com
Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day February 15, 1999
In-Reply-To: 786adl$l5r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com
Message-ID: Pine.LNX.4.05.9901221330310.7008-100000@humbolt.geo.uu.nl
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On Thu, 21 Jan 1999 rick0398@hugin.imat.com wrote:
> wvdputte@reptile.rug.ac.be (Wim Vandeputte) wrote:
>
> > For information on the event, see:
> >
> > http://www.thenoodle.com/refund/
>
> Please see also:
>
> http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/17442.html
> http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2189833,00.html
> http://linuxmafia.com/refund/

Ik heb de EULA (a-la Halloween) in HTML gezet en van
commentaar voorzien. Zie:

<http://www.nl.linux.org/geldterug/license.html>

Het is de bedoeling dat er een complete handleiding
met invulbrieven, etc.. komt die geheel is toegespitst
op de Nederlandstalige en/of Europese gebruiker.
Hiervoor zoek ik nog vrijwilligers (die eigen initiatief
niet schuwen)...

groeten,

Rik -- If a Microsoft product fails, who do you sue?
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Linux memory management tour guide. riel@nl.linux.org |
| Scouting Vries cubscout leader. http://www.nl.linux.org/~riel |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+

From sttoshi@jiji.co.jp Thu Jan 21 23:04:09 1999
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Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 16:11:58 +0900
From: sttoshi@jiji.co.jp (Sato, Toshio)
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Hello,Rick. I am journalist in Japan and working for Jiji press.. I'm
very intereseted in your action. I also love your attitude and idea that
you are not attacking Microsoft.

I would like to inform Japanese user of this action. At present, I
would like you to let me know how many(Japanese) people are joining to
this action. I'm really looking forward to your answer although I know
you are so busy.

Please send back to Yasu in yasusaj@ibm.net

From gregb@qosnetics.com Thu Jan 21 18:56:08 1999
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Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 21:59:58 -0500
From: Greg Burch gregb@qosnetics.com
Organization: Qosnetics
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Rick,

Well, learning about this Windows Refund effort is timely. Just last
week, I was ordering some PCs from a local no-name assembly company.
When they said the system included Windows98, I replied I didn't need
that since these were UNIX programmer development workstations that
would be running FreeBSD. And, I added, we would load the operating
system ourselves. They said without installing Windows98 they couldn't
QA test the systems and they really had to charge me $50 per PC for
Windows or they could credit me if I supplied my own Windows CD
including CoA, etc, etc. Well, I said, if you're not going to QA you
should charge me even less. At that point they said they would have to
get back to me before they could quote a price. When they did, it was
somewhat higher than I was expecting and it wasn't itemized. Why do I
have the feeling I'm being charged for Windows anyway? Why do I have the
feeling it's not possible to buy a PC without paying Bill for Windows?
At $50 a copy I can't imagine they're making any money. Is it simply
because the vendor's contract with MS gives them the right to audit
their PC shipments and requires them to pay solely on the number of PCs
delivered? Moreover, how can the vendor "prove" he didn't ship Windows
on the system and is it even worth his effort to try?

It's one thing to get a refund for something "bundled" you're not using.
It's another to pay for something you didn't even get.

Greg Burch
Qosnetics

p.s. Is any one organizing a similar effort in the Boston area?

From mhigashi@hooked.net Thu Jan 21 17:50:49 1999
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Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:52:27 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Higashi mhigashi@hooked.net
To: Duncan MacKinnon duncan@substance.com,
Richard Couture rrc@myrddin.imat.com,
Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com
Subject: Thinkpad Bios
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A co-worker at Cal pointed out this page that will show you how to access
the bios on any Thinkpad:

http://www.pc.ibm.com/qtechinfo/YAST-3JWKJX.html

You'd think IBM would be more consistant.
Mike

From dmarti@barley.electriclichen.com Thu Jan 21 17:39:53 1999
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Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:41:38 -0800
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:41:38 -0800
From: Don Marti dmarti@electriclichen.com
To: Matt Jensen mattj@thenoodle.com, Mark Bolzern Mark@LinuxMall.com,
Nick Moffitt nick@zork.net, Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com,
deirdre@deirdre.org
Subject: All together now...
Message-ID: 19990121174138.B10888@electriclichen.com
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Matt, Deirdre, Mark, Nick, and Rick,

This is kind of a "what's going on in the world of Windows Refund web
pages" in case you're interested or want to set up or update mutual
links. We seem to be doing rather well with the media...

I know some of you all have communicated with each other about the
distributed "Windows Refund" web presence -- having it on several
sites makes it look like a _movement_, doesn't it?

Here's the latest news so far.

1. Matt, after getting this thing off to an excellent start with the
original Windows Refund Center at http://www.thenoodle.com/refund/, is
retiring. Good work.

2. Mark has volunteered to host the new Windows Refund Center,
successor to Matt's pages, at http://www.LinuxMall.com/refund/ Mark,
when you're ready, please let me and/or Matt know so that Matt's site
gets forwarded over to yours.

3. Nick Moffitt -- nick@zork.net has volunteered to run the new
Windows Refund Newsletter, so Matt is off the hook for that too.
Nick's subscription page is at: http://zork.net/refund/

4. There is a good "links" page going at
http://directory.mozilla.org/Computers/Operating_Systems/Microsoft_Windows/WinRefunds/
so IMHO there's little or no sense in wasting effort on duplicating
too many links. I'll try to get in touch with the category editor for
that page too.

5. The first local page, http://linuxmafia.com/refund/ and its FAQ at
http://linuxmafia.com/refund/faq/ are still run by Rick Moen, and I'm
sure he would welcome contributions or borrowing by any of the other
local groups.

6. Windows Refund Day Events (Orange County) is at
http://www.deirdre.org/rebellion.html -- and I'm sure that there are
more local pages to come.

If anybody has any questions about this event, I'm completely
unprepared to answer them but no less prepared than anyone else, so go
ahead and ask me anyway. This is going to be fun.

--
Don Marti Electric Lichen L.L.C.
whois DM683 -rwxr--r-- Harrison Street
dmarti@electriclichen.com San Francisco, California USA

From owner-svlug@svlug.svlug.org Thu Jan 21 15:20:08 1999
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CompUSA is also in the same shopping center as Gateway Country at the 5 and
Oso Parkway in Mission Viejo.

If you guys want the make this thing really go, I suggest the group meets in
one place and stays there (the bigger the crowd, the more the media will pay
attention). And also, have a plan, don't just all show up and then figure
out how to stage the protest...you'll only look unorganized and people will
just think it's a joke. Make banners for the camera, xerox hundered of
flyers educating people on what linux is and how some may get a refund via
the EULA loophole (I bet that hole closes up real soon!). If someone is
willing to make CDs at their own penny, that would be good to give out to
people. Wish I could go but I believe I have to work that day! Damn!

Fry's will get more business on that day than all of the other places
combined, so you'll be exposed to more sheep there.

Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: deirdre@deirdre.net [mailto:deirdre@deirdre.net]
Sent: Thursday, January 21, 1999 5:59 AM
To: kplug-list@ultraviolet.org; oclug@netus.com; uuasc@uuasc.org;
svlug@svlug.org
Subject: [oclug:] Windows Refund Day SoCal events

http://www.deirdre.org/rebellion.html

This is an initial draft, which isn't really as inclusive as I'd like.
Basically, there are a lot of things I want to put in the document, but
there's
only so much I can do on my lunch hour. :)

For the Jan 30th event, Colin J. Raven cjraven@quik.com has offered to do
the
planning, so I'll leave that in his hands.

Just let me know what's gonna happen so I can update the pages. :)

Anyone know any LUGs (or other non-Windows user groups other than LAMG) in
Los
Angeles County? We could really use help up there too. :)

_Deirdre

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From mattj@thenoodle.com Thu Jan 21 13:37:53 1999
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Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:37:06 -0800 (PST)
From: Matt Jensen mattj@thenoodle.com
To: Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com, Don Marti dmarti@electriclichen.com
Subject: refunds - help?
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Hi Rick, Hi Don,

Looks like you two are perhaps the most active refund enthusiasts I've
seen. So, I'm looking for ideas on how to make this thing run smoother.

Specifically, I think it's becoming bigger than I expected, and just
updating the site on thenoodle.com is taking too much time, much less
making improvements.

I'm not having a nervous breakdown or anything, but I need to focus on my
day job right now. I knew Linux users would like the idea as much as me,
but the amount of press coverage was a little surprising.

Would one of you guys, or someone else you know of, be interested in
hosting an "official" site, and let me direct traffic from thenoodle.com
to you? windowsrefund.org is available from internic :-) The web log
currently grows by about 4 megabytes per hour. Another possibility is to
use the Mozilla Open Directory as a link center, and people could create
links to email groups etc. and post them there. Thoughts?

You can email or call me at 206-583-0100 x3335

-Matt

From ddern@world.std.com Thu Jan 21 10:35:03 1999
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From: ddern@world.std.com (Daniel P Dern)
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To: rick@hugin.imat.com
Subject: Got any quick Windows Refund Day quotes for LinuxWorld?
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Rick,

Hi, Chris DiBona suggested I contact you... I'm trying to file a short
news article on WR Day in the next hour and a half... I'm at
617 969-7947 (Boston area)

Thanks,

Daniel

--- my boilerplate write-up of the assignment ---

Hi... I'm a free-lance technology writer (see www.dern.com for info &
samples) and doing an news article for Linux World (www.linuxworld.com)
on
"Windows Refund Day" and related activities, discussion, etc.,

(e.g., <http://www.thenoodle.com/refund/>) based on Geoffrey Bennett's
recently-posted "Toshiba/Microsoft Saga" of his efforts to get a
refund for the Windows OS bundled in with his notebook computer
purchase (<http://www.netcraft.com.au/geoffrey/toshiba.html>, in case
you missed it somehow)

My editor wants to focus on what the industry is saying about this
Microsoft software refund for those who do not use their OS? So I'm
looking for comments from folks at Microsoft, Dell, etc., as well as
from OpenSource.org, some consumer protection group, and/or a few other
folks.

(Note, this is a short article, so, while I'm always happen to schmooze
and get background, I'll need mostly short quotes -- 1-3 sentences per
person.)

If you're available and feel this is an appropriate topic for you
to speak about, I'd like to chat (phone or email) **ASAP**.
I'm at 617 969-7947 (home office, East Coast) or ddern@world.std.com

(If you feel this isn't a match, I'd appreciate a reply letting me
know, so I can pursue other potential sources instead.)

If you're willing to be attributed(*), I'll need the following
information: Your name, title, full company name, location (company HQ
or your site), and URL (if any), plus a brief (few word) description of
what your company does, for use in quoting you. e.g.

according to William Shakespeare, Manager, Dramatic Licenses,
Tempest Productions Inc. (www.bardic.com), Stratfor-on-Avon, CT, a
streaming-media license manager systems vendor.

(* Depending on your position in the company, you may need
authorization to speak to the press.)

Thanks for your help.

Daniel Dern (ddern@world.std.com, www.dern.com)
617 969-7947 FAX 617 969-7949

*---------------------------------------------------------------------*
Daniel Dern (ddern at world{dot}std{dot}com or <http://www.dern.com>)
Internet writer, speaker, pundit & humorist/songwriter
See "The Return of Windows" <http://www.netcraft.com.au/geoffrey/toshiba.html>

From chris@dibona.com Thu Jan 21 10:23:16 1999
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I'd say talk to rick moen, at rick@hugin.imat.com, he's the force behind
this.

Chris

On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Robert McMillan wrote:

> Hey Chris,
>
> Saw your name on a BALUG nametag the other night, but missed you there. You
> didn't miss much, just a sales guy from Corel NOT telling us that the
> computer division was about to be acquired.
>
> Anyhow, this magazine (below) sent out a special email alert this morning,
> mentioning SVLUG and the windows rebate. We've got a writer working on this
> story.
>
> I wonder if you (as VP of SVLUG) or someone from SVLUG would be interested
> in talking with him about this? His name is Daniel Dern, and I've CCd him on
> this email.
>
> Bob
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: csn@apt.computerwire.com csn@apt.computerwire.com
> To: csn@apt.computerwire.com csn@apt.computerwire.com
> Date: Thursday, January 21, 1999 3:49 AM
> Subject: Client Server News 20 1999,
>
>
> > ----------------------------
> > | CLIENT SERVER NEWSFLASH |
> > ----------------------------
> >
> >
> >01. Linux Agitators Want Windows Refunds
> >
> >
> >
> > ClieNT Server NEWS is published weekly by G-2 Computer
> > Intelligence Inc, 3 Maple Place, PO Box 7, Glen Head,
> > New York 11545-9864, USA
> > Telephone: (516) 759-7025 Fax: (516) 759-7028
> > Publisher: Maureen O'Gara (ogara@g2news.com)
> > US Circulation: Charles Hall (charlie@g2news.com)
> >Senior Editor: Stuart Zipper (nt_editor@msn.com), Denver, Colorado
> > Associate Editor: R. Rao (rao@g2news.com)
> > Telephone: (303) 759 9256 Fax: (303) 759 9266
> >
> > European Distribution: ComputerWire Plc
> > 4th Floor, 12 Sutton Row, London W1V 5FH, UK.
> > Telephone: +44 (0)171 208 4200 Fax: +44 (0)171 439 1105
> > Enquiries: info@computerwire.co.uk
> > (c) Copyright 1998 G-2 Computer Intelligence Inc.
> > No portion of this publication may be reproduced, stored in a
> > retrieval system, or transmitted in any form or by any means,
> > electronic, mechanical, photocopying, recording or otherwise
> > without prior permission of G-2 Computer Intelligence Inc.
> >
> >
> > New York, January 20 1999
> > Issue Number 283a
> >
> >+ Linux Agitators Want Windows Refunds
> >
> >Wednesday, January 20, 1999 - News of the Australian Linux
> >devotee who managed to wangle a refund for the unused copy of
> >Windows 95 that came with a Toshiba laptop has snowballed
> >overnight into plans for a march on Microsoft's Foster City,
> >California office by people demanding their money back.
> >
> >Members of the Silicon Valley Linux Users Group (SVLUG) have
> >set February 15 for the march, dubbing it "Windows Refund Day."
> >They're hoping to get hundreds of users of Linux and other
> >non-Microsoft operating systems to show up waving unopened
> >copies of the Windows CDs that shipped with their PCs all
> >demanding refunds. Quite a little photo op.
> >
> >The idea has already spawned a web site dubbed the Windows
> >Refund Center, hosted by a pro-Linux site called thenoodle.com,
> >and an e-mail bulletin called the Windows Refund Newsletter
> >that the noodle is about to launch. Almost 700 people had
> >signed up for the free e-mail bulletin within 24 hours of its
> >creation late Tuesday. Thenoodle also suggests that BSD, BeOS,
> >OS/2 and NetWare users could demand refunds if they never used
> >the copy of Windows that came with their computers.
> >
> >The catalyst behind the rebellion is Geoffrey Bennett, a
> >computer systems manager at NetCraft Australia in charge of the
> >company's Linux sales and consulting staff. After much
> >hassling, Bennett got a refund for the copy of Windows that
> >came with a laptop he finally bought after futile attempts to
> >buy the machine without the Windows operating system. He says
> >it took six months of arguing with Toshiba, but he finally got
> >his check in August. The story surfaced in the past few days,
> >setting off a furor in the Linux community, whose members have
> >long complained of their inability to buy Intel-based PCs
> >without Windows and have pondered how to make their case.
> >
> >In the call to march posted on a SVLUG member site called
> >linuxmafia.com, there is a detailed checklist of what is
> >thought to be needed to demand a Windows refund. First is that
> >the envelope containing Windows has to be unopened. It also
> >warns folks to dig up copies of their invoices, Windows
> >end-user license agreements (EULAs), Linux disks and
> >documentation such as printouts of disk drive partition tables
> >to prove they're not running Windows.
> >
> >Meanwhile, Linux newsgroups are chattering over how, if
> >Microsoft refunds their money, the exercise could reveal how
> >much each OEM pays Redmond for Windows. In theory, at least,
> >any refund due a user should amount to the portion of the total
> >cost of the system Windows represents. Microsoft has labored
> >mightily to keep the exact price that different OEMs pay for
> >Windows secret. Last week at its antitrust trial it got Judge
> >Thomas Penfield Jackson to agree to keep the data under seal.
> >
> >- Stuart Zipper
> >
> >
> >
>

From jackbrown@phillynews.com Thu Jan 21 07:58:42 1999
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From: Jack Brown jackbrown@phillynews.com
To: "'bofh@linuxmafia.com'" bofh@linuxmafia.com
Subject: windows refund--journalist interested.
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:58:32 -0500
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Rick--

I am a reporter for the Philadelphia Inquirer in Pennsylvania, and I am
very interested in the Windows refund story. (I have been following it on
Slashdot.Org for awhile.)

Anyway, if you have made an attempt to get such a refund, I would really
like to talk to you. My phone # is 215-702-7814 (or just email your # to me
so my paper can pick up the tab.) Or if you know someone else directly...

-Jack Brown

ps--I am personally gearing up to install Linux on my own laptop; I wish I
had thought of this possibility when I bought it. Anyway, I am fairly
tech-savvy, so I won't be screwing up the details of the story....

From zlsiira@afs.mcc.ac.uk Thu Jan 21 02:40:15 1999
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Subject: 'Doze Refund Day
To: bofh@linuxmafia.com
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:41:41 +0000 (GMT)
From: Robert Baskerville Robert@Baskerville.Net
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Rick,

wishing you all the very best of luck for your Refund Day from here in the UK.

The approach you have taken is an excellent one (ie not making the quality
of the ms stuff the issue, just the refund).

Can we look forward to some piccies of the event on the web afterwards?

Robert Baskerville

From kevralyn@netscape.net Wed Jan 20 22:41:32 1999
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From: Chris Schoedel kevralyn@netscape.net
To: rick@hugin.imat.com
Subject: Re: [Re: Windows Refund]
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Sure, go ahead and add me to the list. I've been trying for the last month to
return win98 and Microsoft Works to the manufacturer of my new PC. I'd been
calling them, and finally got the guy's email address on Monday. He has yet
to respond, so maybe this will get their attention. Fow whatever it's worth,
the manufacturer is emachines, based in Fremont. If anyone else has purchased
one of their PCs, I have the name, phone number, and email address of the
person to contact there.

- Chris

rick@hugin.imat.com wrote:
Quoting Chris Schoedel (kevralyn@netscape.net):

> I think the Return Windows day is a great idea. But I do have a concern
about
> how effective it will be. The EULA stipulates that we are to go to the
> manufacturer to obtain a refund. By the terms of the EULA, Microsoft is not
> obligated to allow us to return their software.

True, but we are trying to negotiate arrangements to do this through
Microsoft's business office in Foster City, anyway, in an organised and
in-person group visit. It is in Microsoft's interest to allow this in
a friendly and businesslike manner, _and_ in the interest of Linux
enthusiasts to arrange things that way.

There will, of course, be press coverage. ;->

> Any information regarding when people are heading up to Microsoft? I would
> love to go....

Your best bet is to sign up for the Windows Refund newsletter at
http://www.thenoodle.com/refund/. We'll try to make developing
news for the Bay Area available there. In case that doesn't work, by
your leave, I'll add your name/e-mail address to a list I'm starting here.

--
Cheers, Linux: It is now safe to turn on your computer.
Rick Moen
rick (at) linuxmafia.com

____________________________________________________________________
More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail

From dvasquez@digitalorigin.com Wed Jan 20 21:52:36 1999
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Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 21:58:18 -0800
Subject: Wish to film your "Microsoft refund" event
From: "David Vasquez" dvasquez@digitalorigin.com
To: bofh@linuxmafia.com
CC: rick@linuxmafia.com
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Rick, et al,

I am interested in shooting and editing a short video about your February
15, "Microsoft refund" event, as it sounds like a good human interest story.

Please post the time of day for your event, and directions to the Foster
City Microsoft office at your convenience.

If you have additional background material that is not available on your web
site, please provide links or e-mail back with attachments so I can prepare
some questions to ask on camera before the shoot.

Thanks.

David Vasquez

From porsupah@ringtail.com Wed Jan 20 20:42:56 1999
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Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 20:39:51 -0800
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From: Porsupah porsupah@ringtail.com
Subject: Refund day - yay!
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I can't personally ask for a refund, as I've been successful in avoiding
M$, personally and professionally (my boxes are running MacOS 8.1, QNX
4.23, and NextStep 3.3, soon to be joined by LinuxPPC R5 and NetBSD).

All the same, I'd like to wish you all the best for Windows Refund Day.
I'm hoping people receive their due refunds, and, perhaps more importantly,
that it wakes up more Intel(-compatible) OEMs to the fact that there really
*are* people who don't use these "bargain" copies of Microsoft's OSs.

And yes, I'd be happy to see Apple offer /their/ wares "naked", too. I'm
personally quite happy with 8.1 (though, as you may appreciate, it's OS X
I'm looking forward to. I was an Acorn RISCOS user until 1995 (when my old
Archimedes A310 died), and was introduced to NextStep in the same year. A
fusion of the well considered design of NextStep, atop BSD 4.4, alongside
all the existing application benefits of MacOS.. it's going to be fun.
Slashdot comments posters will have a tough time considering whether to
approve of its Unix side, or disapprove of its Apple side, though :), but
it'd be simply very considerate of Apple to offer the hardware without the
software side.

Perhaps I'll come along anyway, and record the proceedings. Hi-8 camcorder
plus a PBG3 266 - I could encode the results in something like H.263 (not
as smooth as Sorenson or Cinepak, but much faster) and have it uploaded by
cable modem within an hour or two. Hm. I may have to give that further
consideration.

-- Porsupah

From stephaniem@cnet.com Wed Jan 20 16:45:11 1999
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Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:40:00 -0800
To: mattj@thenoodle.com
From: Stephanie Miles stephaniem@cnet.com
Subject: windows refund center
Cc: geoffrey@netcraft.com.au, bofh@linuxmafia.com
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hi there--
i'm a reporter for CNET News.com, and I'm covering the Windows Refund
Center story...if someone could give me a call at the number below to
answer a couple of quick questions, i would appreciate it.
thanks,
stephanie
Stephanie Miles
Reporter, NEWS.COM
415-395-7805 X 1385
415-395-9254 Fax
http://www.news.com

From dave123@texramp.net Thu Jan 21 22:34:55 1999
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Is there anything i can do in my local area to help with Refund Day?
I am a linux user and would like to help people hear about the refund!

From tabindak@shell9.ba.best.com Thu Feb 11 12:52:19 1999
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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:52:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Tabinda Khan tabindak@best.com
To: rick@hugin.imat.com
Subject: contact info for marshals
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Hi Rick,

Don tells me that you've been collecting the names and contact info of
people who are interested in being marshals on Monday. Can you please send
me their information? I need to contact them and let them know who I am
and what my role is. I also want to make them aware of the FCPD
status, radio communication stuff, and set some ground rules.

Thanks,
Tabinda

From dmcknight@kicu.com Thu Feb 11 16:26:30 1999
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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 99 15:39:58 PST
From: "McKnight, Doug" dmcknight@kicu.com
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Rick,

I am the producer of a high tech business program on Channel 36. I am
trying to find out what time the march on Microsoft is going to happen
on Monday.
We would like to cover it.

Please email or call me at (408)953-3636 or dmcknight@kicu.com

Doug McKnight
Producer,
Silicon Valley Business

From dmarti@barley.electriclichen.com Thu Feb 11 17:23:29 1999
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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 17:23:28 -0800
From: Don Marti dmarti@electriclichen.com
To: Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com
Subject: Santa Clara/San Jose
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Hotel Marriott Santa Clara
2700 Mission College Blvd.
Santa Clara, CA 95054
at the "F7" post next to the tennis courts

10 am

Posse organizer: Ian Kluft ikluft@cisco.com

Posse frequency for ham radio: 446.5 MHz

--
Don Marti Electric Lichen L.L.C.
whois DM683 -rwxr--r-- Harrison Street
dmarti@electriclichen.com San Francisco, California USA

From dmarti@barley.electriclichen.com Thu Feb 11 17:59:51 1999
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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 17:59:49 -0800
From: "'Don Marti'" dmarti@electriclichen.com
To: "Nickels Moffitt, King of the Low Rollers" nick@zork.net,
Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com
Subject: [jcarey@fostercity.org: RE: Windows Refund Day, Feb. 15th]
Message-ID: 19990211175949.D14867@electriclichen.com
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Here is the Foster City PD info on the parking garage location,
straight from Lt. Carey himself:

> Sorry it has taken so long to get back to you, but I have just
> gotten confirmation from Spieker properties that they will dedicate
> their east garage to this event. Our plan will be to block off the
> top level of the garage so that cars will not be up there and there
> will be sufficient room for whatever crowd shows up. I have spoken
> with Microsoft and they will be setting up a "satellite" office on
> the top floor of the garage. This will minimize any disruption to
> other tenants in the building.
>
> You can include the location on your web site. The directions you
> currently have listed are excellent as they give exact directions
> into the garage facility. There should be sufficient parking in the
> other three levels of the garage to handle participants.

--
Don Marti Electric Lichen L.L.C.
whois DM683 -rwxr--r-- Harrison Street
dmarti@electriclichen.com San Francisco, California USA

From schoen@requiem.hip.berkeley.edu Thu Feb 11 18:33:22 1999
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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:29:58 -0800
From: Seth David Schoen schoen@uclink4.Berkeley.EDU
To: sf@linuxmafia.com
Subject: I will be coming to Windows Refund Day
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As the subject says, I will be coming to Windows Refund Day.

From pmonta@halibut.imedia.com Thu Feb 11 18:05:17 1999
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Cc: sf@linuxmafia.com
Subject: Windows Refund Day
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I'll be attending Linux Refund Day; I plan to join the
San Francisco-based crowd. 744 Harrison is just a five-minute
walk from work, fortunately.

The computer in question is an IBM Thinkpad 600, which I'll
probably bring, along with all the paperwork.

Cheers,
Peter Monta pmonta@imedia.com
Imedia Corp.

From owner-svlug@svlug.svlug.org Thu Feb 11 18:25:49 1999
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From: Ian Kluft ikluft@cisco.com
Message-Id: 199902120158.RAA13595@tiber.cisco.com
Subject: Re: [svlug] first weather outlook for WRD
To: marc_news@merlins.org (Marc MERLIN)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 17:58:28 -0800 (PST)
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> From: marc_news@merlins.org (Marc MERLIN)
> On 11 Feb 1999 15:49:26 -0800, Deirdre Saoirse deirdre@deirdre.net wrote:
> >They were linked from Rick Moen's page:
> >
> >http://www.microsoft.com/norcal/foster.htm
>
> I'm sorry, by directions I meant: where do we meet? what time? It's in 4
> days, maybe it's time do know...

Rick plans to post the directions for all parts of the Bay Area by Friday,
maybe tonight if all the details come together. He has designated a
meeting point in San Mateo which will be on his page.

For those of us from the South Bay, we'll be meeting at 10AM Monday at the
Marriott Hotel in Santa Clara, at the back parking lot near the tennis
courts. (For those who want a precise reference, we'll meet at post "F7".)

For those who have Ham Radio licenses, please consider coming along to help
even if you don't qualify for a refund. Bring your 70cm radio. We'll use
them enroute and on-site for communication.
--
Ian Kluft KO6YQ PP-ASEL Cisco Systems, Inc.
ikluft@cisco.com (work) ikluft@thunder.sbay.org (home) San Jose, CA

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From sly@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU Thu Feb 11 19:23:34 1999
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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 19:23:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Sylvester Baker Smith II sly@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
To: arlo@linuxmafia.com
Subject: Windows Refund Day
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I will be returning software on Windows Refund Day.

-Sylvester-
--------------------------
sly@ieee.org

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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:47:22 -0800
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Subject: Windows Refund assembly information posted (was: Re: [svlug] first weather outlook for WRD)
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Rick has now posted Windows Refund Day meeting locations and contact e-mail
addresses on the Bay Area Windows Refund Day web site. He has also posted
maps for all sites, and directions for two of the four assembly points.

For the benefit of East Bay participants, the MacArthur BART is at 555 40th
Street in Oakland.

http://www.bart.org/riding/stations/MACAR/

Unfortunately, there are no driving directions provided, but the street
address might be helpful for those who are driving. You can also call the
BART system at (510)465-BART to learn how to get there.

It is very important for Windows Refund Day participants to meet one of the
parade marshals, since they will have up-to-date news on where to go and what
to do in Foster City. In particular, Windows Refund participants should _not_
simply go up and knock on Microsoft's door, since Microsoft may well have made
alternate arrangements of some sort in the meantime. Therefore, please
contact your friendly local posse organizer.

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From s_mcneil@earthlink.net Thu Feb 11 22:00:46 1999
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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 21:59:41 -0800
From: Scott McNeil s_mcneil@earthlink.net
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To: Don Marti dmarti@electriclichen.com
CC: Chris DiBona chris@dibona.com, Ian Kluft ikluft@cisco.com,
Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com
Subject: Re: Posses, carpool
References: 19990211185044.A15305@electriclichen.com
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Folks,

This week I can be reached at:

Home: 510.339.7677
Office: 510.339.6738

Unless you tell me not to, I will be leading the East Bay posse to park
on the street. Otherwise I can see local merchants getting upset.

Scott
--
Scott McNeil
DXM LLC
510.339.6738

From dmarti@barley.electriclichen.com Thu Feb 11 18:50:50 1999
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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:50:44 -0800
From: Don Marti dmarti@electriclichen.com
To: Chris DiBona chris@dibona.com, ebay@linuxmafia.com,
Ian Kluft ikluft@cisco.com
Cc: Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com
Subject: Posses, carpool
Message-ID: 19990211185044.A15305@electriclichen.com
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Posse organizers,

Rick is swamped with mail and updating the Windows Refund Day site, so
he has asked me to get this mail out. All 4 posse points are now
listed on the site.

- The four posse points are the only locations we will publicize or
at which we will encourage people to gather.

- Please organize your attendees to carpool and use the minimum number
of vehicles.

- The Denny's parking lot location

Denny's
2920 S Norfolk St
San Mateo, CA 94403

is confidential, to be discussed only with your drivers on Monday.

We will have the option of using the Denny's lot, the
Microsoft-provided free parking, or one of two alternate locations.

The plan is to meet at the posse points and head to Denny's -- unless
you hear different from Rick or me.

Please mention only the four posse points in any public discussions,
so that in the unlikely case we have to change something we don't have
a bunch of stragglers who don't check their mail showing up at the
wrong place.

The Foster City Police Dept. is aware of this event and I am in
ongoing discussions with the watch commander who will be on duty
Monday. Everything is cool with the police so far and we all want to
keep it that way.

Please send me and Rick any relevant contact phone numbers for
yourselves for the weekend and for Monday.

Thank you for helping keep everything smooth and polite.

--
Don Marti Electric Lichen L.L.C.
whois DM683 -rwxr--r-- Harrison Street
dmarti@electriclichen.com San Francisco, California USA

From schoen@requiem.hip.berkeley.edu Thu Feb 11 22:55:31 1999
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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 22:52:08 -0800
From: Seth David Schoen schoen@uclink4.Berkeley.EDU
To: Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com
Subject: Re: Windows Refund assembly information posted (was: Re: [svlug] first weather outlook for WRD)
References: slrn7c6s1g.p4b.marc_news@magic.magic.metawire.com 199902120158.RAA13595@tiber.cisco.com 19990211184722.C4986@requiem.geecs.org 19990211195018.B21364@hugin.imat.com
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Rick Moen writes:

> Quoting Seth David Schoen (schoen@uclink4.berkeley.edu):
>
> [MacArthur BART]
>
> > Unfortunately, there are no driving directions provided.
>
> Fixed. I've been busy! Please refresh the URL and have a look again.
> You'll note that all the "directions" links now point to "NAME" anchors
> on a new http://linuxmafia.com/refund/directions.html page.

Of course, I meant "unfortunately" in the sense of "because Rick is still
hard at work on it", not in the sense of "because Rick is being
negligent".

Nick mentioned some of the communications with the Foster City police, so
I was trying to emphasize to people that they should meet in an orderly
way and not annoy Microsoft. At least it's clear that we have Microsoft
worried about the size of the thing.

Might I suggest that there should also be a publicized meeting point in
Foster City for the benefit of people coming in on their own (via CalTrain,
etc.)? Obviously, they should meet with a parade marshall.

From ncm@cantrip.org Thu Feb 11 19:54:55 1999
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Hi,

I'm brining a Toshiba Libretto Windows manual (the only off-disk
copy supplied) for a refund.

Nathan Myers
ncm@cantrip.org

From owner-cabal-l-outgoing@rockhopper.deirdre.org Fri Feb 12 05:17:14 1999
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Message-ID: 19990212051656.B22248@hugin.imat.com
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 05:16:56 -0800
From: Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com
To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com
Subject: Coverage: Wow.
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By the way, Joseph, you might append to that announcement
the count I just made of Windows Refund Day articles listed on
http://hugin.imat.com/refund/coverage.html:

Sixty-two articles.

Including ones from India, Malaysia, France, Australia, New
Zealand, England, Sweden, and the Netherlands.

--
Cheers, "By reading this sentence, you agree to be bound by the
Rick Moen terms of the Internet Protocol, version 4, or, at your
rick (at) linuxmafia.com option, any later version." -- Seth David Schoen

From owner-cabal-l-outgoing@rockhopper.deirdre.org Fri Feb 12 05:09:21 1999
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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 05:08:48 -0800
From: Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com
To: cabal-l@windows-refund.org
Subject: (forw) Windows Refund Day, Monday the 15th
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Joseph Grosch of Bay Area FreeBSD User Group asked me, this
evening at the BAFUG meeting, to send him something suitable for
broadcast on his group's announce list. This is what I provided:

----- Forwarded message from Rick Moen <rick> -----

>From: Rick Moen <rick>
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 05:05:34 -0800
To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com
Subject: Windows Refund Day, Monday the 15th

On Monday, February 15, the Bay Area FreeBSD community can join with
other PC users in returning unused, unwanted, bundled copies of Win9x
and other Microsoft software _to Microsoft_ in Foster City, for
refund. With television coverage and reporters from all over the
world.

(This right is guaranteed by _Microsoft's own_ license contract.
See: http://www.nl.linux.org/geldterug/license.html)

The event is being coordinated with similar events (the same day)
in Orange County, New York City, New Zealand, France, Japan, and the
Netherlands -- and has gotten huge amounts of publicity. See:
http://hugin.imat.com/refund/coverage.html (all articles, and timeline)

Main Windows Refund Day sites:
http://hugin.imat.com/refund/ <- Monitor this one for the Bay Area.
http://LinuxMall.com/refund/
http://zork.net/refund/
http://www.deirdre.org/rebellion.html
http://www.netmonger.net/~onr/refund.html
http://hugin.imat.com/refund/japan/
http://www.nl.linux.org/geldterug/
http://www.linux-center.org/detaxe/index.shtml
http://www.uniforum.org.nz/windowsrefund/

Here in the Bay Area, *BSD and Linux people are invited to
assemble at any of four "posse" locations, _before_ 10 AM, Monday,
when we will all carpool/caravan to Foster City.

Open-source essayist Eric S. Raymond will be there. The band
"Severe Tire Damage" ("the first band on the Internet") is supposed
to be do a gig there, AND send it out over the MBONE.

Is Microsoft just a tad nervous? They might be, given that we
troublemakers have already transformed two of their recent company
PR events into open-source ones:

http://www.svlug.org/events/tea-party-199811.shtml
http://hugin.imat.com/svlug/
http://www.penguincomputing.com/svlug-rally.html
http://hugin.imat.com/launch98/
http://www.svlug.org/events/launch98.shtml

A whole flock of people from SCO are even hoping to turn up, _and_
maybe some from Sun Microsystems. And that's not to mention the
party in San Francisco, afterwards.

(IMPORTANT: See http://hugin.imat.com/refund/directions.html
for full details on the following, including directions and maps.)

Mountain View: Meet Posse organizer
Chris Di Bona outside VA Research, 1235
Pear Ave. #111. near N. Shoreline Blvd.
Also, please notify Chris immediately that
you will be coming, at mv@linuxmafia.com.
(Directions.) (Map.)

Oakland: Meet Posse organizer Scott
McNeil at the passenger pickup zone at
the entrance to MacArthur BART, no later
than 10 AM. Also, please notify Scott
immediately that you will be coming, at
ebay@linuxmafia.com. Please include if
you can offer or are in need of a ride!
Please note that the BART parking lot is
for BART patrons. There is nearby
on-street parking. (Directions.) (Map.)

San Francisco: Meet Posse organizer Rick
Moen inside The CoffeeNet Internet cafe,
744 Harrison @ 3rd/4th Streets, no later
than 10 AM. Also, please notify Rick
immediately that you will be coming, at
sf@linuxmafia.com. (Directions.) (Map.)

Santa Clara: Meet Posse organizer Ian
Kluft outside the Hotel Marriott Santa
Clara, 2700 Mission College Blvd @ Great
America, at the "F7" parking post near the
tennis courts. Also, please notify Ian
immediately that you will be coming, at
sc@linuxmafia.com. (Directions.) (Map.)

Stick around, because we're also going to have a party to remember
afterwards, at The CoffeeNet in San Francisco.

Wear your BSD t-shirts! Bring pitchforks and images of Chuck the daemon!
Heck, bring BSDI and the blessed ghost of CSRG; it's going to be a blast,
in any event.

----- End forwarded message -----

From bhushan@magnet.at Fri Feb 12 01:39:18 1999
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Reply-To: niyam@technologist.com
From: "Niyam" bhushan@magnet.at
To: "Rick Moen" rick@hugin.imat.com
Subject: Re: refund press coverage
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:41:23 +0530
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yup, the article looks good, you've done a great job. go ahead and publish
it on the web. please note that the article was actually published in the
March 99 issue. (i had written it in jan end feb first week, and our
publication issue is really March 99)

also, would like to do a follow up article, a post february 15th article.
would like to interview you for that. have already talked with dr.
Venkataraman in New Zealand.

we'll do it thru e-mail.

:-)
niyam

From nicole@ispchannel.com Fri Feb 12 09:27:46 1999
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Message-ID: 19990212090807.B1949@mooseriver.com
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:08:07 -0800
From: Josef Grosch jgrosch@mooseriver.com
To: announce@bafug.org
Subject: {BAFUG-A} BAFUG participation in Bay Area Microsoft Refund Day
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(This right is guaranteed by _Microsoft's own_ license contract.
See: http://www.nl.linux.org/geldterug/license.html)

Main Windows Refund Day sites:
* http://hugin.imat.com/refund/ <- Monitor this one for the Bay Area.
* http://LinuxMall.com/refund/
* http://zork.net/refund/
* http://www.deirdre.org/rebellion.html
* http://www.netmonger.net/~onr/refund.html
* http://hugin.imat.com/refund/japan/
* http://www.nl.linux.org/geldterug/
* http://www.linux-center.org/detaxe/index.shtml
* http://www.uniforum.org.nz/windowsrefund/

Here in the Bay Area, *BSD and Linux people are invited to
assemble at any of four "posse" locations, _before_ 10 AM, Monday,
when we will all carpool/caravan to Foster City.

Open-source essayist Eric S. Raymond will be there. The band
"Severe Tire Damage" ("the first band on the Internet") is supposed
to be do a gig there, AND send it out over the MBONE.

Is Microsoft just a tad nervous? They might be, given that we
troublemakers have already transformed two of their recent company
PR events into open-source ones:

* http://www.svlug.org/events/tea-party-199811.shtml
* http://hugin.imat.com/svlug/
* http://www.penguincomputing.com/svlug-rally.html
* http://hugin.imat.com/launch98/
* http://www.svlug.org/events/launch98.shtml

We are also getting a large amount of press coverage. At last count we had
62 articles including ones from India, Malaysia, France, Australia, New
Zealand, England, Sweden, and the Netherlands. Copies of these articles can
be found at http://hugin.imat.com/refund/coverage.html

A whole flock of people from SCO are even hoping to turn up, _and_
maybe some from Sun Microsystems. And that's not to mention the
party in San Francisco, afterwards.

(IMPORTANT: See http://hugin.imat.com/refund/directions.html
for full details on the following, including directions and maps.)

==> Mountain View: Meet Posse organizer Chris Di Bona outside VA
Research, 1235 Pear Ave. #111. near N. Shoreline Blvd. Also, please
notify Chris immediately that you will be coming, at
mv@linuxmafia.com. (Directions.) (Map.)

==> Oakland: Meet Posse organizer Scott McNeil at the passenger pickup
zone at the entrance to MacArthur BART, no later than 10 AM. Also,
please notify Scott immediately that you will be coming, at
ebay@linuxmafia.com. Please include if you can offer or are in need
of a ride! Please note that the BART parking lot is for BART
patrons. There is nearby on-street parking. (Directions.) (Map.)

==> San Francisco: Meet Posse organizer Rick Moen inside The CoffeeNet
Internet cafe, 744 Harrison @ 3rd/4th Streets, no later than 10
AM. Also, please notify Rick immediately that you will be coming,
at sf@linuxmafia.com. (Directions.) (Map.)

==> Santa Clara: Meet Posse organizer Ian Kluft outside the Hotel
Marriott Santa Clara, 2700 Mission College Blvd @ Great America, at
the "F7" parking post near the tennis courts. Also, please notify
Ian immediately that you will be coming, at
sc@linuxmafia.com. (Directions.) (Map.)

Stick around, because we're also going to have a party to remember
afterwards, at The CoffeeNet in San Francisco.

Wear your BSD t-shirts! Bring pitchforks and images of Chuck the daemon!
Heck, bring BSDI and the blessed ghost of CSRG; it's going to be a blast,
in any event.

This notice is also available on the BAFUG web site at
http://www.bafug.org/RefundDay.html

Josef

--
Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0
jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses

----- End forwarded message -----

--
Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0
jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses

## This is the BAFUG Announce List ##
** To subscribe or unsubscribe send comands to majordomo@bafug.org **

From rosea@cnet.com Fri Feb 12 10:15:04 1999
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I'm a reporter with CNET Radio and am working on a story about the Windows Refund Day.

Are you available for a brief pre-taped radio interview ASAP?

Thanks in advance,

Rose

CNET Radio Reporter/Producer

150 Chestnut Street

San Francisco, CA 94115

p: 415/395-7805 X 1227

f: 415/395-9254

http://www.radio.com/

</color>

From nsayer@medusa.kfu.com Fri Feb 12 09:18:55 1999
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I will be endeavoring to return a copy of Works that came with my
Dell laptop. I will bring the packet, the laptop (to prove that it
is deinstalled), and the bill of sale (proving that the laptop did
once come with Works).

From bhushan@magnet.at Fri Feb 12 05:58:56 1999
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Reply-To: niyam@technologist.com
From: "Niyam" bhushan@magnet.at
To: "Rick Moen" rick@hugin.imat.com
Subject: Re: refund press coverage
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 19:28:58 +0530
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> Thank you, Niyam. Also, I'm sure Don Marti (dmarti@electriclichen.com)
> and I would be glad to do that interview after the February 15th event.
> You might also want comments from Nick Moffitt (nick@zork.net), the
> editor of the Windows Refund Newsletter at http://zork.net/refund/.
>

yup! this sounds good. india suffers from rigor mortis when it comes to
microsoft's near monopoly, making it nearly impossible to make 'em shake
out of it. plus apple made a complete hash of themselves here. am gonna
write about people in various geographic regions of this sub-continent to
implement the windows refund centre, post feb 15th. that makes more sense
here, understanding the weird psychographics of the people. so the
interview with all you guys is gonna be interesting, to say the least.

> I just counted all the articles listed at
> http://linuxmafia.com/refund/coverage.html:
>
> Sixty-two.
>
> Including pieces from India, Malaysia, France, England, New Zealand,
> Australia, Scotland, Sweden, the Netherlands, and the USA.

that's quite cool. however, i had hoped this thing would've snow-balled
into something bigger than this. wonder why it hasn't.

:-)
niyam

"Nothing fails like success." - osho
www.osho.org

From rachel@computerwire.com Fri Feb 12 11:22:20 1999
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Hi, I'm a reporter with ComputerWire (http://www.computerwire.com/). I've
been covering the Windows Refund Day. Can I carpool with you guys to Foster
City?

Thanks,
Rachel Chalmers
Deputy Internet Editor, ComputerWire Inc
150 Post Street SF CA 94108
Tel: +1 (415) 274 8290 x 106
Fax: +1 (415) 274 8281
http://www.computerwire.com

From owner-cabal-l-outgoing@rockhopper.deirdre.org Fri Feb 12 10:57:52 1999
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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 10:58:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Matt Jensen mattj@thenoodle.com
To: CABAL refund list cabal-l@windows-refund.org
Subject: refund- Canadian media request (fwd)
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This came in to thenoodle.com. I'll call him back and give him some phone
numbers (Don, Rick). You wonder, are these guys just now seeing our press
from 2 weeks ago?

-Matt

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:04:23 +0000
From: Simon Avery averyfinpost@earthlink.net
To: admin@thenoodle.com
Subject: media request

I'm trying to contact Matt Jensen about his Windows refund effort for
Linux and other OS users. I cover Silicon Valley for a Canadian daily,
the National Post, and would like to write a story on the issue. Any
help would be appreciated, thanks.

Simon Avery
California Correspondent
National Post
(nationalpost.com)
650-964-7068

From dredd@megacity.org Fri Feb 12 08:48:09 1999
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Add one more to your respective headcounts. I've got an NT Workstation
License over here that's been sitting unused on my bookshelf for quite some
time. :)

I don't know if I'll be able to stick around for the party afterwards, but
I'll be there for the main event.

From owner-cabal-l-outgoing@rockhopper.deirdre.org Fri Feb 12 06:54:59 1999
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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:54:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Jay Sulzberger jays@panix.com
To: Seth David Schoen schoen@uclink4.berkeley.edu
cc: CABAL refund list cabal-l@windows-refund.org,
Jay Sulzberger jays@panix.com
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On Thu, 11 Feb 1999, Seth David Schoen wrote:

> I agree with Mike about posting meeting locations immediately.
>
> (I would normally not post an "I agree" message, but this is a rather
> small list, so the "me too" phenomenon isn't harmful the way it might
> be on, say, SVLUG.)
>
> --
> Seth David Schoen / schoen@uclink4.berkeley.edu
> He said, "This is what the king who will reign over you will do." And they
> said, "Nay, but we will have a king over us, that we also may be like all the
> nations." (1 Sam 8) http://ishmael.geecs.org/~sigma/ http://www.loyalty.org/

The New York Refund Day activities will center near to Microsoft's NYC
headquarters at 50th Street and Eighth Avenue. We have invited Microsoft
to send a spokesmodel over to our demonstration of how to get a refund cum
press conference but so far they have not agreed. If Microsoft sends
anybody on Monday we'll let them in, of course. Our demonstration will
take place across the street from Microosft headquauarters. We'll post
exact times and places on the website this evening, and alert our people
via several mailing lists.

I think we are going to invite the top ten OEMs, Microsoft, and Apple to
come to New York sometime in March to hold open public discussions with
the local free software tribes about some of the important issues arising
from their long history of anti-competitive practice and unfairness to the
end user.

oo--JS.

From emayo@pozicom.net Fri Feb 12 06:31:05 1999
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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:29:51 -0500
From: Eric Mayo emayo@pozicom.net
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Couldn't be more thrilled with this movement against Microsoft. I am
the Director of Communications for a pharmaceutical company and I own my
own business.

My company resells & implements firewalls and web sites based on the
Linux OS as well as our own OS.

The pharmaceutical company I work for has some 500 PCs running WinNT. I
am seriously considering the dumping WinNT for Slackware Linux 2.2.0 and
Wordperfect 8 for Linux. I have 486 Linux boxes that out-perform our NT
and Novell servers!

Most of our groupware that we use in NT is now available for Linux.
I've been with Linux since it made it's debute on the Internet because
my company has also written it's own OS called PozicNOS.
www.pozicom.net is the web site.

I am also a big follower of ReactOS. ReactOS is an open source WinNT
OS. That is, ReactOS is to WindowsNT what Linux is to SCO, Solaris,
AIX, etc Unix.

Realizing your refund day is only 3 days away, do you know of any such
groups in Michigan that are doing this. I just became aware of this
yesterday.

GREAT JOB TO YOU ALL -- AND GOOD LUCK!

Thanks,
Eric Mayo

From owner-cabal-l-outgoing@rockhopper.deirdre.org Fri Feb 12 11:58:32 1999
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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 11:58:17 -0800
From: Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com
To: cabal-l@windows-refund.org
Subject: (forw) {BAFUG-A} BAFUG participation in Bay Area Microsoft Refund Day
Mime-Version: 1.0
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The Bay Area FreeBSD guys are organising. Note Web page mentioned
at the bottom.

----- Forwarded message from Josef Grosch jgrosch@mooseriver.com -----

From: Josef Grosch jgrosch@mooseriver.com
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:08:07 -0800
To: announce@bafug.org
Subject: {BAFUG-A} BAFUG participation in Bay Area Microsoft Refund Day

(This right is guaranteed by _Microsoft's own_ license contract.
See: http://www.nl.linux.org/geldterug/license.html)

Here in the Bay Area, *BSD and Linux people are invited to
assemble at any of four "posse" locations, _before_ 10 AM, Monday,
when we will all carpool/caravan to Foster City.

Open-source essayist Eric S. Raymond will be there. The band
"Severe Tire Damage" ("the first band on the Internet") is supposed
to be do a gig there, AND send it out over the MBONE.

Is Microsoft just a tad nervous? They might be, given that we
troublemakers have already transformed two of their recent company
PR events into open-source ones:

A whole flock of people from SCO are even hoping to turn up, _and_
maybe some from Sun Microsystems. And that's not to mention the
party in San Francisco, afterwards.

(IMPORTANT: See http://hugin.imat.com/refund/directions.html
for full details on the following, including directions and maps.)

Stick around, because we're also going to have a party to remember
afterwards, at The CoffeeNet in San Francisco.

Wear your BSD t-shirts! Bring pitchforks and images of Chuck the daemon!
Heck, bring BSDI and the blessed ghost of CSRG; it's going to be a blast,
in any event.

This notice is also available on the BAFUG web site at
http://www.bafug.org/RefundDay.html

Josef

--
Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0
jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses

----- End forwarded message -----

--
Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0
jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses

## This is the BAFUG Announce List ##
** To subscribe or unsubscribe send comands to majordomo@bafug.org **

----- End forwarded message -----

From owner-cabal-l-outgoing@rockhopper.deirdre.org Fri Feb 12 12:03:40 1999
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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:03:11 -0800
From: Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com
To: cabal-l@windows-refund.org
Subject: (forw) Re: refund press coverage
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The reporter from PC World India who wrote
http://linuxmafia.com/refund/pcworld-india.html

----- Forwarded message from Niyam bhushan@magnet.at -----

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Reply-To: niyam@technologist.com
From: "Niyam" bhushan@magnet.at
To: "Rick Moen" rick@hugin.imat.com
Subject: Re: refund press coverage
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 19:28:58 +0530
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that's quite cool. however, i had hoped this thing would've snow-balled
into something bigger than this. wonder why it hasn't.

:-)
niyam

"Nothing fails like success." - osho
www.osho.org

----- End forwarded message -----

From owner-cabal-l-outgoing@rockhopper.deirdre.org Fri Feb 12 12:05:54 1999
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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:05:19 -0500 (EST)
From: Jay Sulzberger jays@panix.com
To: cabal-l@windows-refund.org
cc: Jay Sulzberger jays@panix.com
Subject: Here is an informal blurt about New York City Refund Day Monday 15
February 1999.
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We are going to assemble at noon on Monday at the Eighth Avenue entrance
of the building at 50th Street and Eighth Avenue which houses Microsoft's
NYC headquarters. Who knows what we will do, but we will do something
there. We have a room at the Day's Hotel across the street and from noon
until 6:00 pm we shall be available to reporters and we shall be taking
delivery of three computers and recording carefully the first bootings,
the removals of all bits of Microsoft OSes from the hard disks, the
swearings of the affidavits, and the mailings to the OEMs of our requests
for a refund. After that we'll install various free OSes on the three
machines and explain the advantages, fair advantages, which free OSes have
over source secret single vendor OSes, and we'll explain the unfair
advantages the source secret OSes have amongst the 85% of computer buyers
who are not sophisticates with regard to computers. We expect some
interested observers from various consumer groups, government agencies,
etc., and we hope that Microsoft sends over a spokesmodel^Wspokesperson so
they get a chance to tell their side of the story.

Jay Sulzberger secretary@lxny.org
Corresponding Secretary LXNY
LXNY is New York's Free Computing Organization.
http://www.lxny.org

PS. A more formal notice will go out tonight and also be placed on the
website:

http://www.netmonger.net/~onr/ny/welcome.html

From dmarti@barley.electriclichen.com Fri Feb 12 12:21:37 1999
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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:21:14 -0800
From: Don Marti dmarti@electriclichen.com
To: russ rhaines@dnai.com, band@std.org
Cc: rick@hugin.imat.com, rrc@coffeenet.net
Subject: after-party
Message-ID: 19990212122114.A21594@electriclichen.com
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Russ and the rest of Severe Tire Damage,

I don't know if you've seen the Windows Refund Day site lately, but
there will be an after-party at the Coffeenet, 744 Harrison St., San
Francisco. It's an Internet cafe. You guys are all invited, and if
you'd like to plug in your MBONE equipment there will be network
connectivity available.

--
Don Marti Electric Lichen L.L.C.
whois DM683 -rwxr--r-- Harrison Street
dmarti@electriclichen.com San Francisco, California USA

From owner-cabal-l-outgoing@rockhopper.deirdre.org Fri Feb 12 11:49:33 1999
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Hi,
just a few lines from France:
we got an impressive media coverage: 3 or 4 radios,
1 television, 3 newspapers (Liberation/Le Monde/Marianne).

So, I thought to add to the Detaxe web page a mail
address where to send logs of refund requests, in order
to be able to track the real number of licences for which refunds
are asked.

That might be a smart idea on the US side too...

BTW, the sheriff penguin got his sign in french by now :-)

--Roberto Di Cosmo

Detaxe Windows: http://www.linux-center.org/detaxe

------------------------------------------------------------------
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From ryanja99@hotmail.com Fri Feb 12 12:33:17 1999
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From: "Ryan James" ryanja99@hotmail.com
To: marshals@linuxmafia.com
Subject: Santa Monica event?
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:32:46 PST
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Hi there. I was wondering if you have any information on the Santa
Monica event. I've been unable to locate any logistical information like
the time, where we're meeting, etc. Can you help me out?

Thanks much.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From refund@zork.net Fri Feb 12 12:32:51 1999
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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:38:05 -0800
From: Nick Moffitt refund@zork.net
To: MikeMillen@aol.com
Subject: Re: Analysis
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On Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 01:02:23PM -0500, MikeMillen@aol.com wrote:
> Would you be willing to put a link to my analysis in your next
> newsletter? You can find it at http://millen.cc

Actually, I've been thinking about doing an analysis of your
analysis and how it fits into the windows refund day. You see, we've
been trying as hard as is possible not to confuse the issues by
getting into antitrust, clickwrap, or any other sort of "Microsoft is
being bad" type of thinking. The success of this effort has hinged on
the fact that our message is simple: We are owed a refund.

However, the fact that there is an actual body of law that
enforces this may just be the thing we need to successfully get our
refunds out of them in a decent amount of time. I'd like to see the
next newsletter come out soon. I'll probably set to work on it this
evening.

--
* Progress (n.): The process through which Usenet has evolved from
smart people in front of dumb terminals to dumb people in front of
smart terminals. -- obs@burnout.demon.co.uk (obscurity)

From owner-svlug@svlug.svlug.org Fri Feb 12 05:51:31 1999
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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 05:27:58 -0800
From: Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com
To: svlug@svlug.org
Subject: [svlug] Showing up on Monday, I sincerely hope?
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I hope y'all are planning on coming to our Windows Refund Day
event. I was just at the local Bay Area FreeBSD User Group meeting,
and may have succeeded in getting the better part of fifty of them
to come. Joseph Grosch asked me to send something for the
announce@bafug.org mailing list, and it follows.

We need to have lots of penguins among the BSD daemons, too!
Please don't forget to send e-mail as indicated below, to let
us know you'll be coming.

----- Forwarded message from Rick Moen <rick> -----

>From: Rick Moen <rick>
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 05:05:34 -0800
To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com
Subject: Windows Refund Day, Monday the 15th

(This right is guaranteed by _Microsoft's own_ license contract.
See: http://www.nl.linux.org/geldterug/license.html)

Here in the Bay Area, *BSD and Linux people are invited to
assemble at any of four "posse" locations, _before_ 10 AM, Monday,
when we will all carpool/caravan to Foster City.

Open-source essayist Eric S. Raymond will be there. The band
"Severe Tire Damage" ("the first band on the Internet") is supposed
to be do a gig there, AND send it out over the MBONE.

Is Microsoft just a tad nervous? They might be, given that we
troublemakers have already transformed two of their recent company
PR events into open-source ones:

A whole flock of people from SCO are even hoping to turn up, _and_
maybe some from Sun Microsystems. And that's not to mention the
party in San Francisco, afterwards.

(IMPORTANT: See http://hugin.imat.com/refund/directions.html
for full details on the following, including directions and maps.)

Stick around, because we're also going to have a party to remember
afterwards, at The CoffeeNet in San Francisco.

Wear your BSD t-shirts! Bring pitchforks and images of Chuck the daemon!
Heck, bring BSDI and the blessed ghost of CSRG; it's going to be a blast,
in any event.

-- Rick M.

[A few minutes later, I sent Joseph this follow-up:]

By the way, Joseph, you might append to that announcement
the count I just made of Windows Refund Day articles listed on
http://hugin.imat.com/refund/coverage.html:

Sixty-two articles.

Including ones from India, Malaysia, France, Australia, New
Zealand, England, Sweden, and the Netherlands.

----- End forwarded message -----

--
echo "unsubscribe svlug" | mail majordomo@svlug.org
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ to unsubscribe
see http://www.svlug.org/mdstuff/lists.shtml for posting guidelines.

From scott@tdiinc.com Fri Feb 12 13:28:12 1999
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Hi,

I volunteered to be a Marshall, but haven't received any details on my role
in this cool event. Will there be a pre-event meeting for marshalls so we
know what to do?

Sorry for the noise as I know you guys are very busy. Just curious what
the story is.

Thanks,

- Scott

From merlin@magic.magic.metawire.com Fri Feb 12 15:25:32 1999
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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:26:34 -0800
From: Marc Merlin marc@merlins.org
To: mv@linuxmafia.com
Cc: rick@hugin.imat.com
Subject: Marshall
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Hi,

I Emailed rick about helping as a Marshall, but didn't hear back.
Would you like any help?

I'll be there at V.A. on monday anyway.

See you then,
Marc
--
"Microsoft is to software what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking"

Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ (friendly to non IE browsers)
Finger marc_f@merlins.org for PGP key and other contact information

From jdemocker@m7.sprynet.com Fri Feb 12 15:08:32 1999
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Hey Rick,

I'd be interested in talking with someone from Linux Mafia. I'm writing an
article for Wired News about the Refund Day event.

Cheers,
Judy DeMocker
(415) 255-8448
freelancer

From owner-cabal-l-outgoing@rockhopper.deirdre.org Fri Feb 12 16:14:43 1999
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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 16:19:17 -0800
From: Nick Moffitt nick@zork.net
To: Don Marti dmarti@electriclichen.com
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Subject: Re: The media loves us
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On Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 04:10:15PM -0800, Don Marti wrote:
> >From one of my many phone conversations today:
>
> Reporter: I'm just calling to ask you some questions again. I had a
> system crash and I lost a lot of information.
>
> Me: That's too bad -- what kind of system?
>
> Reporter: Guess. I've already used it, otherwise I'd bring it in on
> Refund Day.
>
> Does the media love us or what?

You know, I had a similar gripe from an interviewer that
called me up yesterday. "Oh, hangon" she said, "Oh man! Windows just
erased all my notes! No, wait, here--let me get a pad of paper."

--
* Progress (n.): The process through which Usenet has evolved from
smart people in front of dumb terminals to dumb people in front of
smart terminals. -- obs@burnout.demon.co.uk (obscurity)

From owner-svlug@svlug.svlug.org Fri Feb 12 17:38:18 1999
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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:16:24 -0800 (PST)
From: byrd1 smb23@csufresno.edu
To: svlug@svlug.org
Subject: [svlug] carpooling from central valley
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Just trying to find out if anybody from the central valley, more
specifically Fresno, who would like to carpool to Refund Day. I'll be
leaving monday morning and coming back that night.

If anyone is interested, please email me. Unfortunaly I most
likely wont see until Sunday, but I will give you a call Sunday night, and
I'm definatly going.

Steve

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From kparker@eclipse.net Fri Feb 12 18:53:46 1999
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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 21:53:32 -0500 (EST)
From: Ken Parker kparker@eclipse.net
To: sf@linuxmafia.com
Subject: Coming to the Windows Refund day
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Hi Rick,

I plan to be there. I will need a ride, though.

Thanks in advance,

Ken Parker

P.S. If there's a problem, I can also conveniently arrive at the
McCarther bart station (as I live right next to bart). Let me know.

From star@starshine.org Fri Feb 12 20:08:21 1999
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I intend to get a refund on the win98 packet that came with my Magio.
Details:
* yes, my vendor knew I didn't want it.
* I installed Turbo Linux on it, and habe no MSwin partition.
* I may at some point change Linux disty's or change it to FreeNSD, but
I do not intend to ever run MS windows on it.
* Ricoh has no special policy as yet what to do about a
refund-on-bundled-software request.
* I really don't know what the EULA in this pack says, because it's
still sealed, with only the "Certificate of Authenticity" showing

My hubby Jim will be there, but he hasn't got copies to refund. Once
upon
a time ago, he really did get use out of DOS, so I guess that means he
used it ... never using the GUI doesn't mean it's not part of the kit.

--
Heather Stern -*- star@starshine.org -*- star@lasfs.org
. | . Starshine Technical Services :|: L.A.Science Fantasy
Society
--->*<--- Sysadmin Support and Training :|: This World's Oldest SF
Club
' | ` http://www.starshine.org/ :|: http://www.lasfs.org/
teach a man to fish, and he will eat forever. :|: de profundis ad astra

From jens18@ix.netcom.com Fri Feb 12 20:42:15 1999
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I want to return my Windows 95 software.

jens18@ix.netcom.com

(Mountain View)

From s_mcneil@earthlink.net Fri Feb 12 22:21:23 1999
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From: Scott McNeil s_mcneil@earthlink.net
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To: Ian Kluft ikluft@cisco.com
CC: Don Marti dmarti@electriclichen.com, chris@dibona.com,
ebay@linuxmafia.com, rick@hugin.imat.com
Subject: Re: Posses, carpool
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Folks,

In Oakland Presidents Day is a parking meter holiday! If this is the
case in other cities then life may be that much easier.

Thus far I have 5 RVSP.

Scott
--
Scott McNeil
DXM LLC
510.339.6738

From owner-cabal-l-outgoing@rockhopper.deirdre.org Sat Feb 13 00:40:08 1999
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OK, I just posted stuff on ba.announce about Windows Refund Day (and the
expected smallness of CalLUG that day due to that and the Presidents'
Day holiday). I carefully did _not_ tell people the address of the
Microsoft office in Foster City, encouraging them instead to read the
web site and come to one of the four assembly points to join a carpool.

From owner-svlug@svlug.svlug.org Sat Feb 13 00:44:05 1999
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From: Ian Kluft ikluft@cisco.com
Message-Id: 199902130824.AAA16500@tiber.cisco.com
Subject: [svlug] headcounts for Windows Refund Day
To: svlug@svlug.org (Silicon Valley Linux Users Group)
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Just a reminder... As the Bay Area's Windows refund site says at...
http://hugin.imat.com/refund/
please e-mail one of the meeting point coordinators to let them know
you're coming. It will help with headcount estimates. (Many thanks to
those who already have done so.)

If you'll meet at... Then e-mail to...
-------------------- -----------------
Mountain View (VA Research) mv@linuxmafia.com
Oakland (MacArthur BART Station) ebay@linuxmafia.com
San Francisco (CoffeeNet/744 Harrison) sf@linuxmafia.com
Santa Clara (Marriott Hotel, lot F7) sc@linuxmafia.com

Meet at one of these points, not at the Microsoft office.

Arrive no later than 10AM at your meeting point. If in doubt, arrive early.
See the web page for maps and specific directions to each of these points.

The Fresno LUG will send a caravan too. For details contact Steve Bibayoff
smb23@csufresno.edu. They'll meet locally with the Mountain View group
before the 10AM local departure time.
--
Ian Kluft KO6YQ PP-ASEL Cisco Systems, Inc.
ikluft@cisco.com (work) ikluft@thunder.sbay.org (home) San Jose, CA

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From edwardg@internetdevices.com Fri Feb 12 22:21:24 1999
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From: "Edward Gibbs" edwardg@internetdevices.com
To: arlo@linuxmafia.com
Subject: A must go event!
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 22:16:35 -0800
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I'll be there with 3 other people: 4 total.

Linux rules - and it's time for M$ to pay up.

Edward Gibbs

From ikluft@cisco.com Fri Feb 12 17:25:04 1999
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From: Ian Kluft ikluft@cisco.com
Message-Id: 199902130123.RAA06005@tiber.cisco.com
Subject: Re: Posses, carpool
To: dmarti@electriclichen.com (Don Marti)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:23:27 -0800 (PST)
Cc: chris@dibona.com, ebay@linuxmafia.com, rick@hugin.imat.com
In-Reply-To: 19990211185044.A15305@electriclichen.com from "Don Marti" at Feb 11, 99 06:50:44 pm
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So far, we've got 5 responses to sc@linuxmafia.com. Those are not including
Eric Raymond or me, who will also be at the Santa Clara location.

I think I'll send a specific reminder to the SVLUG list reminding people
we need the messages for help with the headcount estimates.

> From: Don Marti dmarti@electriclichen.com
> Please send me and Rick any relevant contact phone numbers for
> yourselves for the weekend and for Monday.

home 408-729-3733 ikluft@thunder.sbay.org
work 408-526-6380 ikluft@cisco.com
pager 800-796-7363 ID 101-6209 ikluft@epage.cisco.com

(If you e-page me, keep the message short and omit your .signature.)

Saturday afternoon I'll be at work but probably in a lab and not next to
my phone most of the time. So page me if you have something urgent then.
--
Ian Kluft KO6YQ PP-ASEL Cisco Systems, Inc.
ikluft@cisco.com (work) ikluft@thunder.sbay.org (home) San Jose, CA

From owner-svlug@svlug.svlug.org Sat Feb 13 00:44:00 1999
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Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 00:28:25 -0800
From: Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com
To: Ian Kluft ikluft@cisco.com, Marc MERLIN marc_news@merlins.org
Cc: svlug@svlug.org
Subject: Please meet at our "posse" assembly points ONLY (was: [svlug] first weather outlook for WRD)
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Quoting Ian Kluft (ikluft@cisco.com):
>> From: marc_news@merlins.org (Marc MERLIN)
>
>> I'm sorry, by directions I meant: where do we meet? what time? It's in 4
>> days, maybe it's time do know...
>
> Rick plans to post the directions for all parts of the Bay Area by Friday,
> maybe tonight if all the details come together. He has designated a
> meeting point in San Mateo which will be on his page.

Just in case there's any residual confusion, the above doesn't apply.
There are exactly _FOUR_ meeting points:

Mountain View
Oakland
San Francisco
Santa Clara

_No others._ Full details, directions, and maps are accessible
at http://linuxmafia.com/refund/.

Three VERY important things:

(1) It'd be very natural to just show up en-masse at Microsoft's
Foster City office in the usual, spontaneous SVLUG fashion.
DON'T DO THAT, this time. We _need_ you to actually go via
one of the four "Posse" locations. There are important things
you'll miss, if you don't. You don't want to miss them.

This, unfortunately, is an open mailing list: you'll hear more
in person, on Monday.

(2) To do carpooling, we need to find out who's coming. We
need to know NOW. That's why the instructions on
http://linuxmafia.com/refund/ say to e-mail one of the four
Posse Leaders that you're coming. Do it NOW. Include how
MANY of you there are.

(3) Carpools require cars. If you can, drive one to the Posse
location.

I'm _serious_ about the above.
Thank you.

--
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From simon@imaginator.com Sat Feb 13 12:50:06 1999
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Rick --

I'm over from London England and would love to attend this -- wil it be
ok to get transport from you or anyone you know to get from SF to
foster City (and back)?

Great work

S.
--

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for arlo@linuxmafia.com; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:46:09 -0800 (PST)
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Message-Id: m10Bj8r-0000CeC@megami.veritas.com
From: jones@veritas.com (Alan Jones)
Subject: returning microsoft software
To: arlo@linuxmafia.com
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:46:09 -0800 (PST)
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Please count me as returning software for "Refund Day".
I'll be returning a copy of NT Workstation in favor of
FreeBSD with all the appropriate documentation.

FYI: I'm looking for a Linix kernel hacker for a contract
to port some STREAMS modules to Linix.

Alan Jones
VERITAS Software

From theshadow@pointblank.com Sat Feb 13 12:26:56 1999
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From: John Hoffman theshadow@pointblank.com
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If Microsoft refuses to honor their own licensing agreement, IMHO, that
means the agreement is invalid. That means the packages may be resold. If
MS refuses to take the packages back, I'd recommend auctioning 'em off
through eBay.

John Hoffman.

From infobank@loxinfo.co.th Sat Feb 13 11:50:00 1999
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From: Associate Executive infobank@loxinfo.co.th
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Top Idea. I had with my Toshiba (again new) all include din two CD and
afterwards I formatted the HD, but no way to get all run , like the
speaker etc. without the MS Windows 95 or 98

I use Netscape as I found the file to split out the Explorer , so I have
only Windows 98, but - are there peoples in Thailand? (I am here!)
starting the same action.
I sued successful 1997 MSN as - just another case of fraud, they made as
purchase the windows 95 and we got MSN in Thailand immediate - then
after around 6 weeks the number has been shot down.
So , we have MSN without access, but again it is promised in Windows. I
am really getting made with MS and I just hope that something come out
to stop this Monster and - layer.
Only promises and better things, but once installed I always have to
spend a hell of Money just to get all the 'up-dates'
Just today I want to install my Norton program, to get the swap file
and the the HD good done. Once installed the message appears that my
Norton don't work with the Toshiba Windows version and I must again
'upgrade'. But the newer Version of Norton takes 23 Megs and install the
Virus program, so I had to delete it, because - no more space for my
Winfax.

It's really got what you are doing and I personally find, that MS's B.
Gates committed a hell of fraud, selling this Windows 95 with the 'MSN'
promises, then this stupid Window 98 with all this useless files of a
stupid browser , just to make as paying more and more MS products.
Hope he will end for fraud one day in Prison.

Sorry, I am not a Pro and I would use Linux immediate but I could not
install it. I did it, but after my Modem and other things didn't work.
I tried the other Opera, but here I still need Windows.
So hopefully someone clever comes out with a god old OS, which includes
a browser and a word or write program. The I will burn the same day all
MS products in front of the MS OFFice here in Bangkok.
OK Good luck for you all and keep in touch,

M. Lagan

From kmself@ix.netcom.com Sat Feb 13 18:56:54 1999
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From: "Karsten M. Self" kmself@ix.netcom.com
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To: arlo@linuxmafia.com, sf@linuxmafia.com, sf@linuxmafia.com
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Arlo, Rick:

I'll be attending WRD. I don't have software to refund. I can drive
(have an X-Cab p/u, good for 2 passengers (more at a squeeze) plus an
outlandish amount of gear. Planning to show at the San Francisco meet.

(415) 332-3779 24 hrs.

--
Karsten M. Self (kmself@ix.netcom.com)

What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?
Welchen Teil von "Gestalt" verstehen Sie nicht?

web: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself
SAS/Linux: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself/SAS/SAS4Linux.html

6:51pm up 2 days, 6:19, 5 users, load average: 0.69, 0.44, 0.32

From charney@CharneyDay.com Sat Feb 13 18:52:31 1999
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From: "Reginald B. Charney" charney@CharneyDay.com
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Subject: Reg Charney - I will attend Windows Refund Day Feb 15/99 in Mountainview
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From davidco@pacbell.net Sat Feb 13 18:06:16 1999
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From: David Connelly davidco@pacbell.net
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I'll be there.

THanks,

David
dac@eng.sun.com

From mhigashi@hooked.net Sun Feb 14 00:43:32 1999
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Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 00:43:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Higashi mhigashi@hooked.net
To: ebay@linuxmafia.com, mv@linixmafia.com, sc@linuxmafia.com
cc: sf@linuxmafia.com
Subject: Cell phone contact
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Hi guys.

If you would like to reach the San Francisco posse during Windows Refund
Day, and you think we may be already on the road or on site at San Mateo,
you can do so through my cell phone.

My number is: 415-290-5736

Mike Higashi

From kaps@ricochet.net Sun Feb 14 01:51:09 1999
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From: Paul Kapustka kaps@ricochet.net
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Rick, my name is Paul Kapustka, editor of GeekWeek at www.geekweek.com.
Would love to tag along for the ride Monday and help spread the news...
where's the best posse point to follow the action from?

Good luck,

-paul

kaps@ricochet.net
www.geekweek.com

From sandj@sirius.com Sat Feb 13 19:44:57 1999
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Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 19:47:12 -0800
From: Jason Grow sandj@sirius.com
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I am a photographer who works for most of the major financial and news
magazines. I'd very much like some more information on the event so that
I might cover it. Have you any press materials? I too am not out to
embarass MS, but it is a newsworthy event.
Thanks,
Jason Grow
415.431.8273 phone/fax

From philferty@earthlink.net Sat Feb 13 19:32:22 1999
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Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 19:35:20 -0800
From: "P. Hilferty" philferty@earthlink.net
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I work for KSTS-48 Telemundo and want to pitch this story to my news
director. Will there be anyone participating who speaks Spanish?

Thanks for your time,

Patrick Hilferty
--
_______________________________________________________________
Patrick Hilferty
Belmont, CA 94002
E-Mail:<Mailto:philferty@earthlink.net
Web Page: http://home.earthlink.net/~philferty/
For voice, fax, data and busy signals: (650) 610-0850
_______________________________________________________________

From alli@leland.Stanford.EDU Sat Feb 13 15:44:05 1999
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From: Allison Huynh alli@leland.Stanford.EDU
Sender: alli@leland.Stanford.EDU
To: marshals@linuxmafia.com
cc: sf@linuxmafia.com
Subject: what about stanford/mid pen meeting point
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Hi Rick,

As you know, I have been generating interest on MS Refund Day at
Stanford...and I have a question about logistics: is there a meeting point
closer to campus? Some of us are considering meeting at Tressider
Student Union and proceeding from there...what do you think of having a
meeting point more convenient for students in the mid-pennisula?

Thanks,

-----------------------------------***----------------------------------
Allison Huynh Tel: 415.885.4689 (Office)
PO Box 12451 Cel: 415.846.9500
Stanford, CA 94309 Fax: 415.885.4683

From dschaebel@nordrhein.de Sun Feb 14 03:10:33 1999
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From: "Detlef Schaebel" dschaebel@nordrhein.de
To: "bofh@hugin.imat.com" bofh@hugin.imat.com
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 12:12:12 +0100 (MEZ)
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Priority: Normal
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Hi,

can you please create a link to the WWW-Site http://www.buntspecht.de/dachverband

We (TeamOS/2 Deutschland eV) wrote an open letter to AgV, the umbrella
organisation of the consumer protection organisations in germany to help consumers to
avoid unused licenses and to have a look at the EULA.

Maybe you can add OS/2 to the os'ses?

Bye
------------------------------------
Detlef Schäbel
TeamOS/2 Ruhr e.V.
nützliche Info's zu OS/2 unter:
http://www.teamruhr.de

From jcox@experiments.com Sun Feb 14 04:00:34 1999
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Subject: Micro$oft Refund Parade -- count me in!!
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Dear Rick,

I'm planning on attending the Micro$oft refund parade. :)

- Jon

From meme@interzone.org Sun Feb 14 10:59:33 1999
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From: meme meme@interzone.org
To: arlo@linuxmafia.com
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Subject: RSVP here
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Will be attending with IBM Thinkpad and disks/licenses At the SF
location... Later,

Joerg Bashir
3314 Balboa #3
San Francisco, CA 94121

From c_reynolds_jr@hotmail.com Sun Feb 14 10:19:34 1999
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From: "Carl Reynolds, Jr." c_reynolds_jr@hotmail.com
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I have w95 I'll request a refund. I'll meet Scott in Oakland.

Carl Reynolds, Jr.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From gumpert@ix.netcom.com Sun Feb 14 07:39:31 1999
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Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 07:42:32 -0800
From: Robert Gumpert gumpert@ix.netcom.com
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Rick,

Will meet you at Cafe tomorrow - if there is any problem with that,
please let me know and I'll arrange to meet you all in Foster City.

As I mentioned before the reporter of the Independent (London, not SF)
will cover the story from southern CA.

Thanks.

Robert Gumpert

From cybear@pacbell.net Sun Feb 14 11:35:13 1999
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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 19:56:01 +0000
From: Matt Templeton cybear@pacbell.net
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I don't have any MS software to return, But I am planing on tagging
along.

matt

From jw@znet.com Sun Feb 14 13:06:44 1999
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From: John Whalen jw@znet.com
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Hello. I'm a journalist working for LA Weekly, an "alternative" news and
entertainment newspaper in Los Angeles.

I'm interested in covering the Feb. 15 Refund Day event in the Bay Area,
but before I gas up my car and rush northward, I was hoping you could
tell me what kind of media response you've gotten so far: i.e., is every
newspaper in the state going to be blanket covering this event? It's
gonna take me a week or so before my piece hits print, and I'm just
wondering how scooped I'll be.....

Thanks for you prompt reply....

John Whalen
jw@znet.com

From byrne@well.com Sun Feb 14 20:15:05 1999
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FYI The other day I asked whether the press had been notified, and you
responded by asking if I was volunteering to contact them.

I sent the press release below to the Chronicle, Examiner, and Wall St.
Journal newspapers and to KCBS radio. If I can get through to the NPR fax
number, I'll send it there, too.

Non-Windows Users Seek Refund at Foster City Event

FOSTER CITY, California (February 15, 1999)-Windows Refund Day participants
in the San Francisco Bay Area are convening at the offices of Microsoft
Corp. to request refunds for unused copies of Microsoft Windows. The Bay
Area action is one of several refund requests occurring around the world on
February 15. Other sites include Southern California, New York, New
Zealand, Japan, and Europe.

In the Bay Area, participants are meeting at locations in Mountain View,
Oakland, San Francisco, and Santa Clara at 10:00 AM. From there they are
traveling in groups to the Foster City offices of Microsoft. Organizers
expect the activity to be peaceful. Volunteer parade marshals are helping
to manage the group.

Participants are users of operating systems other than Microsoft Windows;
examples of such operating systems include Linux, IBM Corp.'s OS/2, and Be
Inc.'s BeOS. As the sale of personal computers is typically tied to the
sale of Microsoft Windows, users of alternative operating system typically
cannot avoid buying a copy of Windows when buying personal computers.
However, Microsoft's end-user license agreement (EULA) stipulates that
users who do not agree to the agreement's terms should return the software
for a refund. It is under the terms of the EULA that Windows Refund Day
participants are seeking refunds.

Microsoft's reaction to Windows Refund Day is to be determined. The
company has steadily increased its market share over the past fifteen
years. Even IBM, with its vast resources and well-regarded OS/2 product,
has been unable to compete effectively against Microsoft. Recently,
however, freely distributed operating systems such as Linux and FreeBSD are
gaining acceptance, but still account for a tiny fraction of the market.
In deciding how to react to the event, Microsoft is forced to weigh whether
the impact of facilitating the refund process will be only the small
immediate cost of the refunds or a far-reaching disturbance of its business
model.
Further information is available at:

http://www.linuxmall.com/refund/

From owner-svlug@svlug.svlug.org Sun Feb 14 20:47:29 1999
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Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 20:23:50 -0800
From: Seth David Schoen schoen@uclink4.berkeley.edu
To: SVLUG svlug@svlug.org
Subject: [svlug] A private Windows Refund Day request
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This is a request from me to anyone who is already planning to attend Windows
Refund Day in Northern California tomorrow:

If you have a laptop (any OS) that

- is capable of doing audio input
- has audio support working
- has usable PPP software installed
- would be convenient for you to bring along to the event

then please consider bringing it along with you (and charge your laptop battery
beforehand). Thanks!

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From caprioli@panther.middlebury.edu Sun Feb 14 22:04:07 1999
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I plan to arrive at 1235 Pear Ave., Mountain View and would like to
join you to go to foster city.

I apologize for the late notice.

Thanks,
Paul Caprioli

From owner-cabal-l-outgoing@rockhopper.deirdre.org Mon Feb 15 00:36:32 1999
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Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 03:31:08 -0500 (EST)
From: Jay Sulzberger jays@panix.com
To: cabal-l@windows-refund.org
cc: Jay Sulzberger jays@panix.com
Subject: Final message to the troops in New York.
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Subject: What is Needed on Refund Day Monday 15 February 1999 in New York City

We have need of the following:

1. a standard external modem

2. standard power cords, power strips, extension cords, a surge
protector

3. standard telephone extension cords, various mating devices, and a
toolkit for dealing with these things

4. CDs of various free OSes, with boot disks, if possible

5. as many boot/root/rescue kits as possible

6. blank floppies

7. magic markers and large sheets of paper.

We are pretty sure we have enough laptops, but more are always welcome.

If you do not bring any of the above come anyway! You are welcome just as
you are!

Reminder:

Some will assemble at noon at the entrance of the building,
825 Eighth Avenue, which is between 50th and 49th Streets. All afternoon,
others will come to that site, and also to the Day's Hotel,
at 790 Eighth Avenue, between 49th and 48th Streets. Ask for the room of
LXNY. This event is an all afternoon event, and we will be in the room
from noon until 6:00 pm. Three Official Buyers will take delivery of
their machines, and demonstrate that end users need not pay for what they
do not want and will not use. All this will be carefully recorded and
published.

Jay Sulzberger secretary@lxny.org
Corresponding Secretary LXNY
LXNY is New York's Free Computing Organization.
http://www.lxny.org

From schoen@requiem.hip.berkeley.edu Mon Feb 15 00:19:40 1999
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Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 00:16:23 -0800
From: Seth David Schoen schoen@uclink4.Berkeley.EDU
To: ebay@linuxmafia.com, sf@linuxmafia.com
Subject: Coming to Oakland assembly point, not SF
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Scott,

Due to an invitation from my friend Sylvester, I'm planning to show up at
your assembly point in Oakland rather than (as I was originally planning)
in San Francisco. I look forward to seeing you there tomorrow morning.

Rick, I should see you at the second-stage assembly point. :-)

From clingo@ihot.com Sun Feb 14 23:24:06 1999
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Add my name,

Charles J. Lingo

clingo@ihot.com

From owner-svlug@svlug.svlug.org Sun Feb 14 23:19:51 1999
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Recently, I read that in an interview Rob Bennet of Microsoft said:

"It's funny. These customers have bought Windows PCs and it's almost
like being surprised that the cherry pie you bought has cherries in it."

I think we need to inform him that users are trying to buy pie SHELLS,
and finding out that they have to pay for cherry filling, even if that
want something else inside!

Larry

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From duncan@substance.com Mon Feb 15 00:05:24 1999
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Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 17:12:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Duncan MacKinnon duncan@substance.com
Reply-To: Duncan MacKinnon duncan@substance.com
To: Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com
Subject: Re: Please meet at our "posse" assembly points ONLY (was: [svlug] first weather outlook for WRD)
In-Reply-To: 19990213002825.A26533@hugin.imat.com
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Hi Rick,
It looks like I will be comming to "Refund"with the Volvo car so I
thought I'd confirm since I don't think I got to yet. Talk to you in the
am.

Duncan...................

Duncan MacKinnon | Remember the map is
duncan@substance.com | not the territory!
voice/messages 415.731.6978 |
fax 415.681.8991 |

On Sat, 13 Feb 1999, Rick Moen wrote:

> need to know NOW. That's why the instructions on
> http://linuxmafia.com/refund/ say to e-mail one of the four
> Posse Leaders that you're coming. Do it NOW. Include how
> MANY of you there are.
> I'm _serious_ about the above.
> Thank you.
>
> --
> Cheers, "By reading this sentence, you agree to be bound by the
> Rick Moen terms of the Internet Protocol, version 4, or, at your
> rick (at) linuxmafia.com option, any later version." -- Seth David Schoen
>
> --
> echo "unsubscribe svlug" | mail majordomo@svlug.org
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ to unsubscribe
> see http://www.svlug.org/mdstuff/lists.shtml for posting guidelines.
>

From johnnyb@johnnyb.net Mon Feb 15 07:21:07 1999
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Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 07:19:34 -0800
To: arlo@linuxmafia.com, sc@linuxmafia.com
From: John Bryant johnnyb@johnnyb.net
Subject: I will be attending Windows Refund day
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Hopefully this email isn't too late. I will be attending Windows Refund day
and I will try to meet the posse at Santa Clara.

-John

------------------
John Bryant
125 Oak Lane
Scotts Valley, CA 95066
Tel: (831) 430-9463
mailto:johnnyb@johnnyb.net

From esn66@primenet.com Mon Feb 15 08:35:45 1999
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Q: How can I stay informed of plans, developments, and news?

A: Two things: Sign up for the Windows Refund Newsletter at
http://zork.net/refund/ (the most important step), and send
e-mail to rick@linuxmafia.com expressing interest.

From s_mcneil@earthlink.net Mon Feb 15 08:46:15 1999
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Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 08:45:21 -0800
From: Scott McNeil s_mcneil@earthlink.net
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To: Ian Kluft ikluft@thunder.sbay.org
CC: Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com, ikluft@cisco.com, mikep@swdc.stratus.com,
chris@dibona.com, marc@merlins.org, ebay@linuxmafia.com,
thalakan@technologist.com, bedlam@bedlam-institute.org,
scott@tdiinc.com, esr@snark.thyrsus.com, smb23@csufresno.edu,
dmarti@electriclichen.com, nick@zork.net, mhigashi@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Thank you for being marshals
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Cell Phone is 510.593.8966 and I'm leaving now!

--
Scott McNeil
DXM LLC
510.339.6738

From chris@dibona.com Mon Feb 15 08:27:10 1999
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Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 16:26:51 -0800 (PST)
From: "Chris J. DiBona" chris@dibona.com
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To: Ian Kluft ikluft@thunder.sbay.org
cc: Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com, ikluft@cisco.com, mikep@swdc.stratus.com,
marc@merlins.org, ebay@linuxmafia.com, thalakan@technologist.com,
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Hi all, just so you have it:

650-814-5629 will get me (me cell)

Chris

On Mon, 15 Feb 1999, Ian Kluft wrote:

> >From: Rick Moen rick@hugin.imat.com
> >[...]
> >All of the posse leaders except me have cellular 'phones. This will
> >help in case there need to be changes of plan.
>
> BTW, I don't have a cell phone either. Just an alpha pager. If you use
> that, keep your message down to 2-3 lines and omit your .signature.
> --
> Ian Kluft KO6YQ PP-ASEL http://www.kluft.com/~ikluft/ sbay.org coordinator
> ikluft@thunder.sbay.org (home) ikluft@cisco.com (work) San Jose, CA
>

From owner-cabal-l-outgoing@rockhopper.deirdre.org Mon Feb 15 08:15:55 1999
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Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:09:43 -0700
Message-ID: 36C846FE.1BFBAC89@LinuxMall.com
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:10:38 -0700
From: Mark Bolzern Mark@LinuxMall.com
Organization: Linux Mall
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To: "Scot E. Wilcoxon" sewilco@fieldday.mn.org
CC: CABAL refund list cabal-l@windows-refund.org
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Refund Page: MS NT Server network license]
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> Subject: Refund Page: MS NT Server network license
> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 21:21:15 -0600
> From: "Scot E. Wilcoxon" sewilco@fieldday.mn.org
> Organization: self
> To: Website@LinuxMall.com
>
> Your Windows Refund page has one MS license. In the
> Slashdot discussion, the item with "M$ website" in the
> header has a link to this license on www.MS:
>
> http://www.microsoft.com/ntserver/fileprint/license.asp

This particular license (interesting as it is) appears to apply only to
the File & Print (Client) services component that accompanies Windows NT
server, and not to any other software. I agree that the scope of what
it applies to is rather unclear, and that it appears to confer unlmited
replication rights within a given entity.

> (I'm just going to mail my CD/license to Toshiba HQ;
> I know it will be too late for Refund Day but I've
> been too busy wrestling with servers. At least it
> will add to their pile of feedback...)
>
> I think this will reach you. I'm tuning the config
> of this new mail server. I just installed Postfix
> (although I told it to identify itself as Sendmail
> on the SMTP port in case a script kiddie tries to
> irritate it).

--
Mark Bolzern mark@LinuxMall.com
Linux Mall --> is The Linux Superstore
http://www.LinuxMall.com mailto:info@LinuxMall.com
Phone: 303-693-3321 Fax: 303-699-2793

From host@cyber-line.com Tue Feb 16 09:35:55 1999
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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:35:43 -0600
To: bofh@linuxmafia.com
From: Mick Williams host@cyber-line.com
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I'd like to interview you guys for our computer show this Sunday about the
Windows Refund Day event.

Thanks,

Mick Williams,

Host/producer

Mick Williams' Cyber Line
WBAP-AM Dallas/Ft. Worth

http://www.cyber-line.com

From gsutter@orcrist.mediacity.com Tue Feb 16 09:59:36 1999
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Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 00:29:16 -0800
From: Gregory Sutter gsutter@pobox.com
To: arlo@linuxmafia.com
Subject: me too
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I will be returning software if possible.
--
Gregory S. Sutter Mostly Harmless
mailto:gsutter@pobox.com
http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/
PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052

From owner-cabal-l-outgoing@rockhopper.deirdre.org Thu Feb 18 09:52:09 1999
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Well, look who responded. :)

_Deirdre * http://disclaimer.deirdre.org * http://www.deirdre.net
Q: Where do you want to go today? A: The 9th Floor

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 12:51:01 -0500
From: James Love love@cptech.org
To: Deirdre Saoirse deirdre@deirdre.net
Cc: Larry Lessig lessig@pobox.com
Subject: Re: Microsoft & Windows Refund Movement vs. consent decree

Deirdre,

Thanks much for the note. I've written a few things that are related to
this issue. See:

http://www.essential.org/antitrust/ms/osnoem.html

and

http://www.essential.org/antitrust/ms/jun3survey.html

jamie

Deirdre Saoirse wrote:
>
> I don't know how much you know about the Windows Refund movement, where
> unused copies of Windows have been being attempted to be returned per the
> End User License Agreement for refund. However, these refunds have been
> consistently denied. The main page is at http://www.linuxmall.com/refund/
>
> Some of us involved in the movement wondered why Microsoft flew the "group
> manager" for Windows, Rob Bennett, from Washington to Foster City
> California for a small protest -- especially since the Microsoft people
> were remarkably inaccessible during the event.
>
> My intuition is that it is related to the terms of the EULA (End User
> License Agreement) and the 1995 consent decree.
>
> Per the memorandum at:
> http://web.lawcrawler.com/microsoft/usdoj/cases/0102.htm
>
> This is a memorandum by the judge when the proposed settlement (that later
> became the consent decree) was "not good enough"
>
> "This exception allows for certain Per System Licenses. A per system
> license means a license for a particular system or model. The decree
> allows OEMs to designate identical machines containing different operating
> systems as distinct systems. This is intended to prevent OEMs from paying
> royalties to Microsoft for all the computers of a certain system even if
> some do not include a Microsoft operating system."
>
> Ultimately the OEM *would not* pay M$ for copies, at least that was the
> judge's intent. In fact, that was the very reason per-processor licenses
> were prohibited in the consent decree per the document found at:
> http://web.lawcrawler.com/microsoft/usdoj/cases/0045.htm
>
> In other words, M$ expects to lose a LOT of revenue over all this, and
> that's no doubt why Microsoft was worried. A CNN poll today
> (http://www.cnn.com/POLL/results/99971.html) showed that 84% of users who
> voted would seek a refund for Windows.
>
> The OEMs who have refused to pay refunds have stated that their contract
> with Microsoft does not allow it. Yet Microsoft's statement (found at
> http://www.loyalty.org/~schoen/dear-valued-customer.html and, except for
> the address at the top, identical to the copy I received in Irvine, CA on
> 2/15/99) states "At the request of the PC makers that license Windows for
> resale, Microsoft must direct you to the PC maker from which you purchased
> your copy of Windows."
>
> However, if it really was at their request, why do they not know about it?
>
> An additional aspect to the Microsoft anti-trust trial can be found in
> that letter. As you both know, Microsoft has been waving around Linux as
> its biggest competitor. However, per the "Dear Valued Customer" letter:
> "In fact, more than 200,000 PC makers worldwide will allow you to choose
> which exact components you want on your PC, from processor to video card
> to operating system software. According to the LINUX.ORG Web site, more
> than 60 OEMs in 14 countries offer PCs with LINUX preinstalled."
>
> 60 OEMs (Linux) vs. 200,000 OEMs (Windows) is microscopic. In fact, almost
> all those copies of Linux they seem so worried about were people who *had
> already paid* for Windows, whether voluntarily or not. In my opinion, this
> ratio, much more than the installed base, reflects the true monopoly
> position of Microsoft.
>
> _Deirdre * http://disclaimer.deirdre.org * http://www.deirdre.net
> Q: Where do you want to go today? A: The 9th Floor

--
James Love, Consumer Project on Technology
P.O. Box 19367, Washington, DC 20036
202.387.8030; f 202.234.5176
http://www.cptech.org, mailto:love@cptech.org

From MVM@Macola.com Thu Feb 18 09:50:43 1999
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From: MVM Mark Mcgrew MVM@Macola.com
To: "'bofh@linuxmafia.com'" bofh@linuxmafia.com
Subject: WinSlows Refund Day
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 12:48:00 -0500
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I'm eagerly anticipating an update to the imat.com Refund Day site. How did
the party etc. go?

Mark McGrew
382-5999 ext. 521
1-800-468-0834 ext. 521
mailto:mvm@macola.com

"I, as a citizen, should not be afraid of my President. "--Linda Tripp, to
Jamie Gangel, Today show, February 11, 1999

From fcruz@mesuite.com Thu Feb 18 08:26:22 1999
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From: "Cruz, Felix" fcruz@mesuite.com
To: "'bofh@linuxmafia.com'" bofh@linuxmafia.com
Subject: Feb 15 event
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:20:48 -0500
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hi,

My name is Felix. I like to keep track of what's happening (when I can)
with what's happening with the Microsoft trial through links, and happened
upon this one in a press release. I'm curious as to how the event went, and
did Microsoft comply with their license agreement by refunding you the cost
of the OS.

I personally am a Windows user although I hope to be buying a pc soon and
set up a dual boot for Windows and Linux. I have a copy of Caldera but
everything I read is Red Hat Red Hat Red Hat. Is this the version I want
then?

Just FYI, a recent press release says IBM will start selling pc's with Red
Hat preinstalled and provide customer and technical support. It'll be
interesting to see how this commercialization will affect the free software
movement.

I understand that Sun also makes Solaris 7 available for free if for
non-commercial and educational use. Any ideas if there is a users group out
there I could glean info from about it. In fact, any best url's for free or
evaluation os' would be a help.

I'm sure you're busy so if I'm imposing, just want to say you guys have one
more person behind you all.

Sincerely,

Felix Cruz

From haunlinfeng@dcn.att.com Thu Feb 18 07:04:22 1999
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Subject: How about after 02/15?
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Dear Sir or Madam,

I just got the "Microsoft Windows Refund" msg from news. How about those
who seek refund after 02/15?

Thank you for your attention.

A Linux User.

Haunlin

From sasse@ontw0.uni-paderborn.de Thu Feb 18 04:44:02 1999
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Organization: University of Paderborn
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--------------69BA4779349B
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Sorry, the correct URL is:

http://ontl2.uni-paderborn.de/winstop/geld-zurueck/

Thank You.

---------------- Ceterum censeo Microsoft esse delendum ----------------
Philipp Sasse Universitaet Paderborn FB 14/850 D-33095 Paderborn
Tel. ++49-5251/60-3452 (Fax -3437) mailto:sasse@ont.uni-paderborn.de
http://ontl2.uni-paderborn.de/winstop/ PGP via hkp://horowitz.surfnet.nl

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Message-ID: 36CBFAC0.3C63@ont.uni-paderborn.de
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 12:34:24 +0100
From: Philipp Sasse sasse@ont.uni-paderborn.de
Organization: University of Paderborn
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Hi!

Seems like nobody in Germany cares about the refund: No websites, no
storys in newspapers or elsewhere. So today I started a website at

http://ontw4.uni-paderborn.de/winstop/geld-zurueck/

informing users and collecting information on Refund actions in Germany.
At the Moment I'm concentrating on statements on the legal situation
with the German EULA (speaking of refund for just the "unused" product).

I want to ask You to set a link to the site for German users. Thanks.

Philipp.

---------------- Ceterum censeo Microsoft esse delendum ----------------
Philipp Sasse Universitaet Paderborn FB 14/850 D-33095 Paderborn
Tel. ++49-5251/60-3452 (Fax -3437) mailto:sasse@ont.uni-paderborn.de
http://ontw4.uni-paderborn.de/winstop/ PGP via hkp://horowitz.surfnet.nl

--------------69BA4779349B--

From bhushan@magnet.at Wed Feb 17 22:08:11 1999
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Reply-To: niyam@technologist.com
From: "Niyam" bhushan@magnet.at
To: "Rick Moen" rick@hugin.imat.com
Subject: Re: refund press coverage
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:38:15 +0530
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Dear Rick,

checked your website, no news on what happened on 15th february?

so what happened? are you guys still avaiable for interviews? lemme know
asap. my deadline's drawing near.

would love a detailed summary, report, or your press release, on what
happend on 15th february, worldwide

thanx
niyam

From ikluft@cisco.com Thu Feb 18 02:25:01 1999
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From: Ian Kluft ikluft@cisco.com
Message-Id: 199902181024.CAA07518@tiber.cisco.com
Subject: Re: LUG stuff
To: chlmarti@inluc.org (Charles Martin)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 02:24:02 -0800 (PST)
Cc: rick@hugin.imat.com, officers@svlug.org, beale@best.com (John Beale)
In-Reply-To: Pine.LNX.4.04.9902172310460.630-100000@inluc.org from "Charles Martin" at Feb 17, 99 11:15:59 pm
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Thanks for letting us know that. The pictures you showed at your meeting
were probably the ones taken by John Beale, so I'll CC this to him so
credit goes where it's due.

BTW, I noticed your web site links to us. Thanks. I added a link from
SVLUG to INLUC.
--
Ian Kluft KO6YQ PP-ASEL Cisco Systems, Inc.
ikluft@cisco.com (work) ikluft@thunder.sbay.org (home) San Jose, CA

> From: "Charles Martin (chlmarti@inluc.org)" chlmarti@inluc.org
> To: rick@hugin.imat.com, officers@svlug.org
>
> Hi guys,
>
> Just wanted to congratulate all of you on the fine job you did at
> Microsoft. After our monthly presentation concluded, we showed
> the pictures on our projection monitor of the Windows Refund Day.
> We loved all of them, but especially enjoyed the non-working elevator
> picture!
>
> Hats off to you all, brother and sister penguins!
>
> Regards,
>
> Charles Martin
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Indianapolis Linux Users Consortium
> Charles Martin INLUC
> President PO Box 3564
> chlmarti@inluc.org Carmel, IN 46033
> http://www.inluc.org +01 (317) 846-9762
> -------------------------------------------------------

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From: Roberto Di Cosmo Roberto.Di.Cosmo@ens.fr
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 99 17:20:47 +0100
To: Deirdre Saoirse deirdre@deirdre.net
Subject: Re: Bingo
cc: Jay Sulzberger jays@panix.com,
Roberto Di Cosmo
Roberto.Di.Cosmo@ens.fr,
Seth David Schoen
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No, the document contains 3 more pages...

In particular, see page 4 under "OEM Coalition"

--Roberto Di Cosmo

------------------------------------------------------------------

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Ecole Normale Superieure WWW : http://www.dmi.ens.fr/~dicosmo

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Begin forwarded message:

X-Authentication-Warning: rockhopper.deirdre.org: deirdre owned process doing -bs

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 07:45:11 -0800 (PST)

From: Deirdre Saoirse <deirdre@deirdre.net

X-Sender: deirdre@rockhopper.deirdre.org

To: Roberto Di Cosmo <Roberto.Di.Cosmo@ens.fr

cc: cabal-l@windows-refund.org

Subject: Re: Bingo

In-Reply-To: <199902181112.MAA02253@menthe.ens.fr

This is just the email showing the word attachment. I think you have the

wrong URL.

On Thu, 18 Feb 1999, Roberto Di Cosmo wrote:

> If you look at memo by Kempin's on the DOJ web site

> http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/exhibits/365.pdf

_Deirdre * http://disclaimer.deirdre.org * http://www.deirdre.net

Q: Where do you want to go today? A: The 9th Floor

From owner-cabal-l-outgoing@rockhopper.deirdre.org Thu Feb 18 03:29:41 1999
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Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 06:29:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Jay Sulzberger jays@panix.com
To: Roberto Di Cosmo Roberto.Di.Cosmo@ens.fr
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Subject: Re: Bingo
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On Thu, 18 Feb 1999, Roberto Di Cosmo wrote:

> Honestly, I dont know...
>
>
> If you look at memo by Kempin's on the DOJ web site
>
> http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/exhibits/365.pdf
>
> MS is getting concerned about the fact that OEMs could
>
> try to avoid the $750*10^6 figure, but especially the 10% of
>
> overall price figure.

I agree. My guess is that within a few months, and not six months, we'll
see small cheap remote administratable machines running a free OS coming
into the market. I wonder what eMachines pays Microsoft for the W9* on
their $400 model. I suspect that it is really $26 and not $50 .

>
>
> That seems to really imply that OEM *could* escape MS,

It would just take one head of one OEM to say when Microsoft says "Put
Windows on all your machines, or we will not license Windows on any of
your machines." "All right, good. No Windows for us.". Of course the OEM
should have planned for this moment and have a better OS ready to go, but
that is rather easy.

>
> but I have still to be convinced that one OEM could
>
> survive long enough to MS pressure (no beta to test
>
> your equipment on new versions, no information on new
>
> features, programs that crash *just* on your machine,
>
> double prices on windows/office, FUD^10, etc.) to be able to start
>
> selling the "alternative", and to see profits coming in
>
> before competing OEM eat him up.

Well, the approzimately $750*10^6 saved would come in useful here, I
think.

>
>
> One should remember that in the OEM market, *there is*
>
> competition, [IMHO, one of the factors that made OSS success
>
> possible is precisely the fact that OSS is not subject (not directly)
>
> to the kind of pressure MS could put on a competitor]: probably
>
> OEM are eagerly waiting for *somebody else* to do it
>
> (wonder why the same DELL that refuses to refund
>
> my 4 copies of Win95 is the first to come hurrying to give us
>
> PCs for Linux demos... :-))

I agree.

>
>
> After all, maybe what we are all doing here is the real solution
>
> to this monopoly/stupidity problem
>
>
> --Roberto Di Cosmo

I think it is. I think that the consumer choice issue in both the USA and
Europe is more important than the issue of how Microsoft deals with Sun
and Netscape.

oo--JS.

From owner-cabal-l-outgoing@rockhopper.deirdre.org Thu Feb 18 03:13:44 1999
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From: Roberto Di Cosmo Roberto.Di.Cosmo@ens.fr
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 99 12:12:44 +0100
To: cabal-l@windows-refund.org
Subject: Re: Bingo
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Honestly, I dont know...

If you look at memo by Kempin's on the DOJ web site

http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/exhibits/365.pdf

MS is getting concerned about the fact that OEMs could

try to avoid the $750*10^6 figure, but especially the 10% of

overall price figure.

That seems to really imply that OEM *could* escape MS,

but I have still to be convinced that one OEM could

survive long enough to MS pressure (no beta to test

your equipment on new versions, no information on new

features, programs that crash *just* on your machine,

double prices on windows/office, FUD^10, etc.) to be able to start

selling the "alternative", and to see profits coming in

before competing OEM eat him up.

One should remember that in the OEM market, *there is*

competition, [IMHO, one of the factors that made OSS success

possible is precisely the fact that OSS is not subject (not directly)

to the kind of pressure MS could put on a competitor]: probably

OEM are eagerly waiting for *somebody else* to do it

(wonder why the same DELL that refuses to refund

my 4 copies of Win95 is the first to come hurrying to give us

PCs for Linux demos... :-))

After all, maybe what we are all doing here is the real solution

to this monopoly/stupidity problem

--Roberto Di Cosmo

------------------------------------------------------------------

LIENS-DMI E-mail: dicosmo@dmi.ens.fr

Ecole Normale Superieure WWW : http://www.dmi.ens.fr/~dicosmo

45, Rue d'Ulm Tel : ++33-(0)1-44 32 20 40

75230 Paris CEDEX 05 Fax : ++33-(0)1-44 32 20 80

FRANCE MIME/NextMail accepted

------------------------------------------------------------------

Begin forwarded message:

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 05:57:43 -0500 (EST)

From: Jay Sulzberger <jays@panix.com

To: Roberto Di Cosmo <Roberto.Di.Cosmo@ens.fr

cc: Seth David Schoen <schoen@uclink4.berkeley.edu,
cabal-l@windows-refund.org, Jay Sulzberger <jays@panix.com

Subject: Re: Bingo

In-Reply-To: <199902181027.LAA01007@menthe.ens.fr

On Thu, 18 Feb 1999, Roberto Di Cosmo wrote:

> <<nofill>Hi there, I have been reading the legal documents on the

> case for a long time, and the remarks in judge Sporkins'

> document are exactly the same put forth in the excerpt

> of the consent decree on the French site (sorry, it is

> in french :-))...

> The notion of "different model name for identical machines"

> is *exactly* the kind of machinery that may allow OEM to

> get the money back from Microsoft on EULA refunds... but

> they just *don't* do it!!!!!

> Let's explain how they could very simply do all this:

> 1) duplicate all model names... for all model name N

> introduce model name N-NW (for No Windows :-))

> 2) sell the machines you want to sell, with Windows presintalled if you want,

> and keep your accounting, putting all these in the "N" model category

> 3) when you get a refund request, pay for it upfront, send the customer a sticker

> with the "N-NW" model name to stick over the "N" model name, then

> in your accounting declare one "returned model N" and one "sold model N-NW"

> 4) at the end of the year, make the final adjustments, and you pay MS royalties

> *only* for the "N" models, not the "N-NW" ones.

> <</nofill>

> Isn't it simple? The point is that OEM DONT DO IT because they are scared

> to hell...

> <<nofill>

But, of course, the big OEMs have no reason whatsoever to be afraid.

Microsoft was able to extract monopoly prices for its software only

because the heads of all the big OEMs are incompetent. Today a high

executive of Compaq testified that a few years ago when Microsoft raised

its prices on OSes Compaq simply paid the increase rather than start

selling some other OS. How much did Compaq pay? $750*10^6 . Now how

much would it have cost Compaq to produce, or buy, a better OS than W9*?

Certainly considerably less than $750*10^6 . Why did Compaq not simply do

this, or merely explain the real situation to Microsoft? Because Compaq

is incompetent.

All Microsoft needed to do for many years was simply swindle the heads of

the big OEMs. Microsoft's only customers are ten incompetents.

> (I'll tell you that I got on national Radio here in France in a rather pro-MS

> emission that of course edited pretty much my intervention, but the journalists

> admitted that they did not find one OEM who dared to say live what they said to

> <</nofill>the off the record. Of course, this was dismissed as a "respectful

> attitude towards the

> <<nofill>

> powerful")

> --Roberto Di Cosmo

The OEMs are much more at fault here than Microsoft. At any point they

could have made more money by offering end users a choice of OSes, rather

than foisting W9* on a public who simply did not know any better.

"respectful attitude toward the powerful" no, rather, delusion as to the

actual power relations. The free software movement did not have $750*10^6

and yet we were able to produce a system.

oo--JS.

From owner-cabal-l-outgoing@rockhopper.deirdre.org Thu Feb 18 02:58:20 1999
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Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 05:57:43 -0500 (EST)
From: Jay Sulzberger jays@panix.com
To: Roberto Di Cosmo Roberto.Di.Cosmo@ens.fr
cc: Seth David Schoen schoen@uclink4.berkeley.edu,
cabal-l@windows-refund.org, Jay Sulzberger jays@panix.com
Subject: Re: Bingo
In-Reply-To: 199902181027.LAA01007@menthe.ens.fr
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On Thu, 18 Feb 1999, Roberto Di Cosmo wrote:

> <nofill>Hi there, I have been reading the legal documents on the
> case for a long time, and the remarks in judge Sporkins'
> document are exactly the same put forth in the excerpt
> of the consent decree on the French site (sorry, it is
> in french :-))...
>
> The notion of "different model name for identical machines"
> is *exactly* the kind of machinery that may allow OEM to
> get the money back from Microsoft on EULA refunds... but
> they just *don't* do it!!!!!
>
> Let's explain how they could very simply do all this:
>
> 1) duplicate all model names... for all model name N
> introduce model name N-NW (for No Windows :-))
>
> 2) sell the machines you want to sell, with Windows presintalled if you want,
> and keep your accounting, putting all these in the "N" model category
>
> 3) when you get a refund request, pay for it upfront, send the customer a sticker
> with the "N-NW" model name to stick over the "N" model name, then
> in your accounting declare one "returned model N" and one "sold model N-NW"
>
> 4) at the end of the year, make the final adjustments, and you pay MS royalties
> *only* for the "N" models, not the "N-NW" ones.
> </nofill>
>
> Isn't it simple? The point is that OEM DONT DO IT because they are scared
> to hell...
> <nofill>

But, of course, the big OEMs have no reason whatsoever to be afraid.
Microsoft was able to extract monopoly prices for its software only
because the heads of all the big OEMs are incompetent. Today a high
executive of Compaq testified that a few years ago when Microsoft raised
its prices on OSes Compaq simply paid the increase rather than start
selling some other OS. How much did Compaq pay? $750*10^6 . Now how
much would it have cost Compaq to produce, or buy, a better OS than W9*?
Certainly considerably less than $750*10^6 . Why did Compaq not simply do
this, or merely explain the real situation to Microsoft? Because Compaq
is incompetent.

All Microsoft needed to do for many years was simply swindle the heads of
the big OEMs. Microsoft's only customers are ten incompetents.

> (I'll tell you that I got on national Radio here in France in a rather pro-MS
> emission that of course edited pretty much my intervention, but the journalists
> admitted that they did not find one OEM who dared to say live what they said to
> </nofill>the off the record. Of course, this was dismissed as a "respectful
> attitude towards the
> <nofill>
> powerful")
>
> --Roberto Di Cosmo

The OEMs are much more at fault here than Microsoft. At any point they
could have made more money by offering end users a choice of OSes, rather
than foisting W9* on a public who simply did not know any better.

"respectful attitude toward the powerful" no, rather, delusion as to the
actual power relations. The free software movement did not have $750*10^6
and yet we were able to produce a system.

oo--JS.

From owner-cabal-l-outgoing@rockhopper.deirdre.org Thu Feb 18 02:27:34 1999
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From: Roberto Di Cosmo Roberto.Di.Cosmo@ens.fr
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 99 11:27:10 +0100
To: Jay Sulzberger jays@panix.com
Subject: Re: Bingo
cc: Seth David Schoen schoen@uclink4.berkeley.edu,
cabal-l@windows-refund.org
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<nofill>Hi there, I have been reading the legal documents on the
case for a long time, and the remarks in judge Sporkins'
document are exactly the same put forth in the excerpt
of the consent decree on the French site (sorry, it is
in french :-))...

The notion of "different model name for identical machines"
is *exactly* the kind of machinery that may allow OEM to
get the money back from Microsoft on EULA refunds... but
they just *don't* do it!!!!!

Let's explain how they could very simply do all this:

1) duplicate all model names... for all model name N
introduce model name N-NW (for No Windows :-))

2) sell the machines you want to sell, with Windows presintalled if you want,
and keep your accounting, putting all these in the "N" model category

3) when you get a refund request, pay for it upfront, send the customer a sticker
with the "N-NW" model name to stick over the "N" model name, then
in your accounting declare one "returned model N" and one "sold model N-NW"

4) at the end of the year, make the final adjustments, and you pay MS royalties
*only* for the "N" models, not the "N-NW" ones.
</nofill>

Isn't it simple? The point is that OEM DONT DO IT because they are scared
to hell...
<nofill>
(I'll tell you that I got on national Radio here in France in a rather pro-MS
emission that of course edited pretty much my intervention, but the journalists
admitted that they did not find one OEM who dared to say live what they said to
</nofill>the off the record. Of course, this was dismissed as a "respectful
attitude towards the
<nofill>
powerful")

--Roberto Di Cosmo

------------------------------------------------------------------
LIENS-DMI E-mail: dicosmo@dmi.ens.fr
Ecole Normale Superieure WWW : http://www.dmi.ens.fr/~dicosmo
45, Rue d'Ulm Tel : ++33-(0)1-44 32 20 40
75230 Paris CEDEX 05 Fax : ++33-(0)1-44 32 20 80
FRANCE MIME/NextMail accepted
------------------------------------------------------------------
</nofill>

From owner-svlug@svlug.svlug.org Wed Feb 17 15:41:04 1999
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Date: 17 Feb 1999 22:53:37 GMT
From: marc_news@merlins.org (Marc MERLIN)
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Organization: Private Linux Box proudly running a modified RedHat Linux 5.2
References: slrn7cirdl.ibg.marc_news@magic.magic.metawire.com, 19990216122618.A2567@requiem.geecs.org, slrn7ck69t.6os.marc_news@magic.magic.metawire.com
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Don't tell me they're really big, I know. I'll encode smaller ones tonight.

If you do have bandwidth, you can enjoy the (higher quality) mpegs right
now:
http://marc.merlins.org/linux/refundday/

Marc
--
"Microsoft is to software what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking"

Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ (friendly to non IE browsers)
Finger marc_f@merlins.org for PGP key and other contact information

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Hi Rick

Thanks for a great interview. I forgot to tell you that it'll be out in
realaudio also. You will be able to find it at
www.dr.dk/harddisk/realaudi/

It'll be out about friday I suppose.

It'll of course be mostly in danish, but perhaps your norwegian genes will
help you through. Danish and Norwegian is REALLY close. We danes used to own
the place you know ;-) Now we can't even beat them in soccer ;-(

See you
Jens

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Do you see this? I haven't even seen it hit any lists yet!

http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9902/17/refund.idg/ is the poll URL

http://www.cnn.com/POLL/results/99971.html is the results URL

_Deirdre * http://disclaimer.deirdre.org * http://www.deirdre.net
Q: Where do you want to go today? A: The 9th Floor

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[Moved from svlug to cabal-l]

Deirdre Saoirse writes:

> Rick, I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.
>
> On Wed, 17 Feb 1999, Rick Moen wrote:
>
> > Quoting rjray@tsoft.com:
> >
> > > To have not expected MS to have their PR machine in high-gear would be a
> > > grave oversight, but I don't know if this was the case.
> >
> > They did not really have it out at all, which seems surpassingly strange,
> > at first glance. I have some speculations on why, and the picture is
> > starting to look very interesting.
>
> _Deirdre * http://disclaimer.deirdre.org * http://www.deirdre.net
> Q: Where do you want to go today? A: The 9th Floor

After the Windows Refund Day party, Rick and Nick and I were talking with
Richard Couture, proprietor of the CoffeeNet, Rick's landlord, etc., and
(as I learned) former collection agent or something similar. He was
talking about lawsuits and small claims and such, and came to the
conclusion that something was very fishy about what happened in Foster City;
he felt that either Microsoft was hiding something big, or Microsoft was
monumentally stupid and ill-advised. Rick and Nick and I were all somewhat
persuaded by the plausibility of his argument for this, although it's hard
for me to paraphrase it.

One interesting thing was that Microsoft sent Rob Bennett, the "group manager"
for Windows itself, out from Redmond to Foster City. Bennett is responsible
for Microsoft's overall Windows strategy -- an _extremely_ high-up
executive -- and, by virtue of his position, arguably knows more about
Windows marketing, licensing, and strategy than _any other person in the
entire world_.

It is therefore interesting that Microsoft would send such an important and
knowledgeable person all the way from Washington to California to attend a
small protest and to give minor comments to the press. I would guess that
they did not do this in order to give a few Linux users the pleasure of
saying that they had personally asked the man who was in charge of Microsoft
Windows for a refund. :-)

Seriously, Bennett was a very high-ranking and important person to have on
hand for an ostensibly very minor function. Therefore we can have additional
conspiracy theories about what exactly he was doing there. (The press were
confused enough that he was identified at times as a "Microsoft spokesman",
which is manifestly _not_ his job description at all; he is occasionally
asked for comment about very broad Windows issues, such as security
problems or product announcements, but he is, I believe, not primarily
supposed to be talking directly to the press.)

Also, Microsoft people cleverly avoided being asked the "Questions for The
Man" on camera, as far as I could tell. That would have been particularly
devastating and/or interesting, but it did not happen -- as Rick (or Don?)
said, the Microsoft reps were "very scarce" after a certain point in the
event.

From JAG@dr.dk Wed Feb 17 09:13:48 1999
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Subject: Radio Denmark Interview?
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 18:12:00 +0100
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Hi there...

My name is Jens Aagren Poder, and I'm a Journalist. I work for Radio
Denmark, and I've been covering Refund Day for a Technology/Culture
programme called The Harddisc.

I've been told by Don Marti (Electric Lichen, he gave me your e-mail by the
way), that you were responsible for organising the Refund Day, in the San
Fransisco Bay Area.

I would like to do a short interview with you TODAY if possible, to talk
about what happened monday. It will take about 10 minutes over the phone. I
understand, that you had a series of "Questions for the Man:", what was the
response on those?

You can hear the radio-interview I did with Geoffrey Bennett and Don Marti
at this adress:
www.dr.dk/harddisk/realaudi/905ref.ram
It mostly in danish, but you can hear what response I got from Geoffrey and
Don.

I hope you will mail me back as soon as you read this mail.

Thank you very much
Jens Poder, Radio Denmark
jag@dr.dk
www.dr.dk/harddisk/jag.htm

From JAG@dr.dk Wed Feb 17 08:27:50 1999
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Dear Rick....

I'm a Journalist working for Radio Denmark. I have been covering Refund Day
for our Technology/Culture programme The Harddisc (www.dr.dk/harddisk).

I would very much like to talk to someone who attended the Refund Day in the
US. (the refund movement didn't catch on in Denmark). Therefore if you have
got some time to do a short radio-interview (10 minutes or so), or know of
anyone who'd be interested (and interesting), then please mail me back, then
we can talk.

You can hear the feature I did on "Refund Day" with Geoffrey Bennett and Don
Marti (from Electric Lichen) on this address:
www.dr.dk/harddisk/realaudi/905ref.ram
Most of it is in danish but you'll be able to hear Geoffrey and Don.

Thank you very much

Jens Aagren Poder, Radio Denmark

jag@dr.dk
www.dr.dk/harddisk/jag.htm

From owner-svlug@svlug.svlug.org Wed Feb 17 00:59:48 1999
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The following article has some interesting insights on MS's actions (or
lack thereof), and where the OEMs are in this affair.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/990216-000001.html

[T]he basic Windows refund problem is that it can't go much
further than publicity stunt level until there is a real
competitor. Given that $25 is neither here nor there, we're
not going to see a mass user revolt, while for the PC
manufacturers the pain-gain ratio will remain tilted in
Windows favour, unless of course demand for, say, Linux
in the consumer market forces their hand. As some of the
demonstrators yesterday pointed out, the issue is choice,
not money, and it won't be solved until the PC companies
start offering choice.

Throwing my $US 0.02 into the "how should we behave ourselves on camera"
discussion, I'd like to note that when a bunch of people who were
fanatically trying to promote their software held a bash for the
cameras:

- They got a band to sing a song.
- They got a comedian to tell jokes.
- The got a bunch of people together with food and drink to
make noise.
- They decorated a bunch of buildings.
- Most of which had zilch to do with running a real operating system.

The fact that the product, Windows 95, had zilch to do with running a
real operating system is noted. However, I don't think Microsoft felt
any great shame about its publicity stunt (not sure about the software).

WRD was a publicity stunt. It wasn't a measured legal debate or
discussion of the merits of Windows or Linux. It made TV news, it made
the papers. TV news coverage (KRON, KPIX) was even quasi-intelligent.
Made the front page of The New York Times. Pretty fscking awesome. The
media likes a bit of a circus, a bit of a carnival. Y'all delivered,
and didn't look like goons in the process (psst, I've got a secret:
Microsoft looked like cheating, guilty dweebs). (Another secret: I may
be biased).

Wish I was there (waking up is hard to do....). Kudos to all involved.

--
Karsten M. Self (kmself@ix.netcom.com)

What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?
Welchen Teil von "Gestalt" verstehen Sie nicht?

web: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself
SAS/Linux: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself/SAS/SAS4Linux.html

12:31am up 5 days, 11:59, 4 users, load average: 0.46, 0.39, 0.37

--
echo "unsubscribe svlug" | mail majordomo@svlug.org
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ to unsubscribe
see http://www.svlug.org/mdstuff/lists.shtml for posting guidelines.

From simona@computerwire.com Wed Feb 17 14:37:07 1999
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Enjoy.

1: http://www.computerwire.com/cgi-bin/view?article=ysxsvqzaiGhRtXdqgXdIcUvmUPhExopxcdmVUg0ZtmrPtathSZ7c1HcZAcajhWvQ

2: http://www.computerwire.com/cgi-bin/view?article=yDxMvbzZiEhXthdpgkdJcPvEUv0v3Z3b3vUR7s4p1L2cSq0VtR2yAQakhSvR

3: http://www.computerwire.com/cgi-bin/view?article=yrxvvIzwiHhRtMdtgVdTcEvbUv0F3r3Y3OUU7S8yrttqSH0Qtt2mAjaChHvG

4: http://www.computerwire.com/cgi-bin/view?article=yExavYzJimhAtsdsgIdlcavSUC0f3r3k3xUM7Q1coutSSZ0ktI2wARaPhivo

- Si

From matthew@ssc.com Fri Feb 19 08:48:07 1999
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Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 08:48:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Matthew Cunningham matthew@ssc.com
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Subject: Refund Day
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Hello Rick,

Now that a few days have passed for you to think about it, I am curious
how you feel Refund Day went for you there in California? Do you feel it
was sucessful? Something that should be repeated?

And of course, how did the Linux Journal's go over? I thought that you
would enjoy the stickers and other goodies that I put in there. If you
have any of the stuff left over, feel free to pass it out at your next LUG
or something.

Thanks!

Matthew Cunningham
Marketing
Linux Journal

From defaultuser@domain.com Fri Feb 19 14:40:31 1999
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Hi, my name if Stan Mallison. I'm attorney for a very large
plaintiff's class action law firm. I am very interested in gathering
facts about this case for a potential class action suit.

Please contact me if you have an insights that you would be willing to
share about this case.

Stan Mallison
415-288-4545

From owner-cabal-l-outgoing@rockhopper.deirdre.org Fri Feb 19 14:53:57 1999
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Deirdre Saoirse writes:

> Oh baby!
>
> This is big!
>
> Give yourself a big hand guys, this is all a part of the awareness you
> raised.

But that class action suit doesn't seem to charge that Microsoft or the OEMs
violated the EULA, so it's _not_ clear that it arises out of Windows Refund
Day in any way. It just says that they charged "monopoly prices". Um.

Wow, I take that back, and stand corrected: the class action suit was filed
by Charles Lingo, whom I don't know, but who was a participant in the Bay
Area Windows Refund Day event (quoted in various media outlets, I recall).
The unsuccessful attempt "to return the software" is mentioned. So apparently
this suit _does_ stem directly from Windows Refund Day after all.

Of course, I'm unhappy that this is happening under antitrust law rather than
contract law. On the other hand, the relevant conspiracy in restraint of
trade _was_ a conspiracy to violate or evade contracts (the EULA!), so I may
not have that much to complain about.

From owner-cabal-l-outgoing@rockhopper.deirdre.org Fri Feb 19 15:26:05 1999
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In-Reply-To: Pine.LNX.3.96.990219145623.19919C-100000@rockhopper.deirdre.org; from Deirdre Saoirse on Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 02:59:25PM -0800
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Deirdre Saoirse writes:

> On Fri, 19 Feb 1999, Seth David Schoen wrote:
>
> > But that class action suit doesn't seem to charge that Microsoft or the OEMs
> > violated the EULA, so it's _not_ clear that it arises out of Windows Refund
> > Day in any way. It just says that they charged "monopoly prices". Um.
> >
> > Wow, I take that back, and stand corrected: the class action suit was filed
> > by Charles Lingo, whom I don't know, but who was a participant in the Bay
> > Area Windows Refund Day event (quoted in various media outlets, I recall).
> > The unsuccessful attempt "to return the software" is mentioned. So apparently
> > this suit _does_ stem directly from Windows Refund Day after all.
>
> Can anyone find me this Charles Lingo person? I'd really like to join the
> suit. :)

I was looking in the SVLUG archives at egroups.com (formerly findmail.com)
to see if he had ever posted to SVLUG, but their search engine is down right
now.

I did look up one of the articles in which he was quoted. What do you know?
He's an OS/2 user!

It seems that the effort to attract users of operating systems other than
Linux was successful: one of them came along and decided to sue Microsoft.
:-)

> > Of course, I'm unhappy that this is happening under antitrust law rather than
> > contract law. On the other hand, the relevant conspiracy in restraint of
> > trade _was_ a conspiracy to violate or evade contracts (the EULA!), so I may
> > not have that much to complain about.
>
> The point of antitrust law is that one does not come to an agreement
> through consent but rather through force.

I see no force involved anywhere in the computer industry, and certainly not
in Microsoft's licensing. I thought the point of antitrust law was an
attempt to enforce a public policy decision that there ought to be a certain
level of competition observed in every market, or at least every market that
involves enough money to attract attention and publicity. (And then that
whatever agreements tend to counteract this are invalid and even criminal.)

> Many years ago, I sold
> role-playing game supplies at conventions and ONLY at conventions. I
> didn't want a store; for me, this was a break from my daily life. Two
> distributors and a retail store tried to get me ousted from the con
> because I sold at (the horror!) a discount. The convention was considering
> it until I pointed out that this was price-fixing and was illegal. As I
> had typically made about $6k on such weekends, they could pay me $18k and
> I wouldn't show up.

Well, if it's their convention, I think they should get to set whatever
policies they want for participation in it, including terms of membership,
attendence, and pricing policies.

Obviously, the current regime of commercial law does not agree with me.

> Strangely enough, I got a VERY good spot at the show. Funny that.

Next time you're in the CoffeeNet, ask Richard Couture to tell you his story
about the landlord, the lease, and the lawyer. :-)