From: Brandon Harris <bharris@gaijin.com>
To: Cydny Fire Eisner <cbeisner@sirius.com>
cc: webdevelopers@balug.org
Subject: Re: RCS
In-Reply-To: <199710171847.LAA03574@mail1.sirius.com>


	Well, it appears that I have plenty of time right now as the
servers are down because of a controller card problem.
	So. . . 

> We all have differing opinions on site development & design.
> 
> Again I pose the question:
> 
> How are we making decisions?
> 
> Is David the final arbiter because he is hosting the site?

	No.  Or, rather, if that's the case, i'd REALLY like to know that,
like, yesterday.  

> Do we trash a proposal because of a single objection?

	No.  Unless it's my objection, of course.  I have the Jackbooted
thugs to back it up.

> Or Does majority rule?

	No.  I and my Jack-Booted thugs do.

> If majority rules, what is a majority (how many people are on this 
> team) & what about new  members?

	No matter how many people there are on the team, I have more
Jackbooted Thugs of Darkness(tm).

	<shrug>  I dunno.  The problem with "majority rules" is generally
the majority doesn't give a damn and just follows the herd.  So we can
have a vote for vote, but not everyone WOULD vote, so. . .

	This is an interesting point.  
	Should there be a leader?  Do we need one, or are we all good
enough designers and authors to mix together well?
	Do we have to worry about screwing each other's stuff up?  or do
we even look at the idea that there IS each other's stuff?


> 
> I don't know that this is a draft spec, But I will summarize what
> Eric & Brandon have agreed to: (perhaps we could all put our initials
> in square brackets - [CE] - next to items we agree with & insert
> alternate proposals in parens just underneath each item)

	You thought of this, so you maintain it.  <grin>

> 
> ARCHITECTURE:
>     General Graphics dir name = images  [CE]
		yeah, yeah. cool.


> 
> NAMING
>   Capitalize concatenated words  [CE]
		bh
>   Use .html for all HTML filename extensions  [CE]

		bh

>   (proposed) Use . or - instead of _
		bh

> 
> DESIGN STYLE
>   (proposed) Total download time/page 14.4 kb = 30 seconds

		make that 40.


>   (I have a tool that calculates the download time for most speeds)
>   

>   (proposed)  Image based nav elements with Javascript MouseOvers 
> with text nav line for the nonGraphics Crowd  [CE]

	bh.  no text nav.  neener neener neener.  I'll write an index.cgi
that autoloads different pages for the imageless.


>     
>   (proposed) Background Color - Black   [CE]

	bh.

>   (proposed) Background Color - White
>   (proposed) Text Color - Purple

	god no.  i didn't propose a "purple" text color. I proposed a
purple and black SCHEME.
	text color: #DDDDDD

> 
> HTML TAG STYLE
>   Comment with an eye towards maintenance  [CE]
	bh
>   Include META tags    [CE]
	bh
>   (proposed) All HTML tags in CAPS   [CE]
	bh
>    Colour codes in Hex (I have a hex chart for anyone that needs it)  
> [CE]

	bh
		i wrote a little thing that translates numbers from 0-255
to hex values.  i'll put it up.  it's pathetic.

>   Indent Tags  [CE]

	bh

> I would like to see is an interactive nav bar/elements that change
> with mouseOvers.  A framed page with the main nav elements in the
> left frame & main content in the right frame.  If not used for the
> main nav, then for links page.

	I have, like, 50 differnt ways i've written this, as well as 50
different ways to actually *code* it.

	check out http://www.gaijin.com/index2.html  (side, on page)
		  http://www.gaijin.com/heroin/ (top, on page)
		  http://www.gaijin.com/X/ (left frame navbar)
	for various example ideas
	

> As for my inquiry about databases & java: I am starting to play with
> a couple of Linux based databases & the JDBC.  I  find that its
> always better to have a little project to work on while I'm playing.
> I thought it might be beneficial to both of us (me & the BALUG Web
> project) incorporate this into the site - for instance to manage the
> links list or a members directory via a database & let the database
> generate those pages.  Since there is so much objection to that,
> I'll look for a project elsewhere. 


	Hmm.  that's not a bad idea.  more discussion should be made about
this, though.

	-b.

---
Brandon Harris
Sun Certified Solaris Administrator             http://www.gaijin.com/
   bharris@gaijin.com                         jormungandr@sfnet.com
       Unix : Security : HTML : CGI : NT : USENIX : SAGE : NCSA



Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:43:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: ncm@cantrip.org (Nathan Myers)
To: webdevelopers@balug.org
Subject: standards

> ALL code should pass weblint.

So we need to have weblint installed on dave's machine.

> Care to formalize this into a draft spec?  Nothing fancy, any kind of list
> will probably do.

A makefile to run weblint and all the perl scripts on ur-texts to 
generate all the cruft: alternate links for image maps, dimensioning
for images, etc. would make keeping things standard practical.
 
> Re: objections to javascript:  Sounds to me like someone has a bit
> of a bias, but i'll address it:
> 
> Any technology that puts a person ahead in the game is worthwhile.

Any technology that makes everybody who turns it on into virus-bait
is not worthwhile.  Javascript is a hazard.  That ActiveX is worse 
helps not at all.



> 	(I propose we build a "beat up on richard stallman" page, too.)
 
Stallman has got beat up on quite enough.  He's crusty, you had to be 
crusty to make free software work before the internet happened.  But 
he did.  Without Stallman there would have been no Linux.  If you don't 
remember the world before GNU, trust me, you don't want it back.  And
make no mistake, there are people trying to make it that way again.
(Witness i2o.)
 
> 	I use black and green, so i like them a lot, but ya know . . .
> 
> 	I've got a neat looking purple and black scheme i've been wanting
> to use, too, and one that uses a blue.

No light paragraphs on dark backgrounds.  (It's OK for captions & headings, 
but hell on the eyes for reading.)  No sans-serif paragraphs, same reason.

What kind of content are we thinking about?  I have in mind a
"gnarly sites" page with links to pages describing gnarly setups 
our members (and others) have put together, where (e.g.) some 386sx 
running Linux is providing firewall+file-service+fax, and with links 
to all the config scripts that make each work.

Nathan Myers
ncm@cantrip.org



Message 15/218  From David L. Sifry                 Oct 17, 97 10:33:27 am -0700
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 10:33:27 -0700
Organization: Sifry Consulting
To: webdevelopers@balug.org
CC: "Eric D. Berg" <eberg@sybase.com>
Subject: Re: Mail Hyperarchives Question/Suggestion

Eric D. Berg wrote:

> Well, the disk space required to add a directory is negligible..or did I miss
> something?

Nah, it shouldn't be a big deal - I was just thinking I could run
mhonarc on each majordomo archive file, and that would give us monthly
mail-to-html directories.  It also works as a good backup strategy. 
Something still freaks me out about the mhonarc -add switch. :-)

> I'd say that we should keep one archive, not both Mhonarc and the straight
> mail archive.  I've  wanted to set up a mail archive 2 web gateway which
> would save on disk space by saving plain mail and filtering it into HTML
> before sending it.  No biggie either way, though.

I'll set up the monthly directories over the weekend.

> Do you know why there might be a delay in getting mail that I've received on
> one of the lists into the archive?

Yeah, it could be because I had the mhonarc alias AFTER the majordomo
alias, and since there are about 75 people subscribed to balug-talk,
itwasn't getting processed until the mail got sent out to them.  I've
corrected this, and your post should be immediately available on the web
after you send it.

Of course, there could be a local configuration error behind your
firewall that is slowing things up, too... ;-)

Try it now, it should be much faster.

Dave
-- 
Dave Sifry                                 http://www.sifry.com
david@sifry.com   (408) 471-0667 (voice)   (408) 471-0666 (fax)
The power of a concept to change people's lives for the better.



Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 10:08:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Brandon Harris <bharris@gaijin.com>
To: "Eric D. Berg" <eberg@sybase.com>
cc: webdevelopers@balug.org
Subject: Re: RCS

> I'm shocked to hear that anyone would make the decision to actually test
> Sybase 4.x against O7.  Please, do me a favor and mention to them that
> Sybase has some of the best numbers in the business at the latest versions
> (System 11).  They're going about it all wrong if they're concerned about
> performance.  Tell them to get some Sybase sales guys out to do some demos or
> run some comparisons with Oracle.

	Oh, no - you misunderstand.  we aren't running them against one
another.  Here's the sitch:
	Our "standard" db is sybase 4.  I've gotta upgrade it soon - i
know we've got a site license for 10.
	The marketroids want to test out this new ording system, though,
and it's beta, and it uses oracle.  So i'm installing oracle on the box
JUST FOR this beta code.
	Hell.  all my scripts are using Sybase::Dlib calls.  I'm not gonna
be rewriting them anytime soon.

	(<shrug>  It's sun.  we gotta run all KINDS of crap.)
	Any recs on a good sybase admin's guide?  I've got this . . .
binder. . . full of . . .heavy things.  I want something more portable.

> > 	My norms:
> > 
> > 	*.html, always.  not *.htm
> > 	I don't use "_", i use "." (prodigal.1.html)
> 
> Never .htm.  Agreed.  I use "_", but am not totally comfortable with it.  For
> aesthetic reasons, I prefer "-", but even that bugs me somewhere deep down
> inside.

	I have no problem with dashing.  fine by me.  


> > 	multiple syllabalic words I use mix caps casing (AboutUs.html -
> > <although, i've been finding myself using a java style naming convention
> > that goes "aboutUs.html" at times, too.>)
> > 	whatever it is, it should be agreed upon.
> 
> You probably mean polysyllabic, but since that means having multiple
> syllables, you mean multiple word...er...words. No?  I don't like the later
> option.  Caps for major words works for me.

	Yeah, yeah.  polysyllabic.  compound.  etc.  
	so you like the "lowerUpperUpper.html" format?  that's cool, and
unless there are objections, we'll use it.


> > ALL code should pass weblint.  (since weblint doesn't understand
> > javascript, when it complains about "No such element ONMOUSEOVER" that can
> > be ignored, I imagine)
> 
> Couldn't agree more.  I don't mind ignoring the complaints about percent
> values in WIDTH attributes and color-related values, either.

	alright.  should have a directory that we just put "web tools" in
- stuff like weblint, etc.


> > 	I have a pet peeve with html done in lowercase.  I like
> > readability and indentation.  (<HEAD> as opposed to </HEAD>).
> 
> I've been doing all lower case for a long time....psgml (xemacs html
> editing/parsing mode for those who don't know) but I may be coming around on
> that one.

	i use xemacs for this, too - fontlock rules.   it's as close to an
"html editor" that i'll get.  
	perhaps i'll get bored and whip up a "lower2upper" script for HTML
codes, so it's not an issue.

> > 	<META TAGS> and <!-- comments --> - thoughts?
> 
> Meta's cool for info.  I <!-- comment -->  my HTML to make sure that I can
> easily find different sections.  

	We'll have to come up with META tags that are required.

	How about:

	DOCUMENTNAME
	DESCRIPTION
	KEYWORDS
	BASEURL

	We can come up with a basic template with all of these already
built and then people just have to edit that.



> > 	Those are, at any rate, my standards that I would throw in.
> > Suggestions?
> 
> Care to formalize this into a draft spec?  Nothing fancy, any kind of list
> will probably do.

	Jah.  Over the weekend, sometime.


> 
> Hey, I'm about to install DeBabelizer for Windows.  Ooooohhh.  DeBab has long
> been one of the best graphics manipulation tools on the Mac.  It excels in
> automation and palette manipulation.  A quick script can dice and slice any
> graphics into web shape in a jiffy. 

	Jah?  fucking rock.  where did you snag that?  I've been doing my
graphics on <shudder> NT with photoshop, since, as much as I like the
GIMP, i've not had the time to lay around with it enough to learn it
backwards and forwards like PShop.  I would kill to have a debab that runs
on NT.
	I normally run everything through www.gifwizard.com for good
measure.

> I'd like to try some dynamic content negotiation with our graphics at some
> point.  That's where you reference your images without a descriptive type
> suffix such as .gif or .jpg, make the images available in multiple formats
> with the suffixes and let the browser and server hash out which to serve.
> Useful?  Well, it's cool, and then we could use .png graphics as well.  But
> this is just a curiosity of mine.

	Heh.  Cool.  And if you get it working, let me know, and then show
me the code.


> > Color Scheme:
> > 
> > <something> and black OR white.  Purple and orange backgrounds are
> > terrible.  Black and white backgrounds (and greys) are clean and crisp,
> > and easier to gauge readability on.  (With a black site, you want to use
> > #DDDDDD for text, though, as white on black vibrates.)
> 
> No textured backgrounds.  More often than not, they make the text difficult
> to read.

	Oh, very very very much so.  I've got a couple that I'll use, but
they are ultra-subtle (stuff like really light binary code) or something)
- but yah.  no backgrounds.

> > 	I've got a neat looking purple and black scheme i've been wanting
> > to use, too, and one that uses a blue.
> > 	(geez.)
> 
> What do you all think out there?  Anyone want to come up with a logo graphic?
> 

	If i've time, i'll see what i can chop together.




---
Brandon Harris
Sun Certified Solaris Administrator             http://www.gaijin.com/
   bharris@gaijin.com                         jormungandr@sfnet.com
       Unix : Security : HTML : CGI : NT : USENIX : SAGE : NCSA




Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:06:21 -0700
From: "Eric D. Berg" <eberg@sybase.com>
To: "David L. Sifry" <david@sifry.com>
Cc: webdevelopers@balug.org
Subject: Re: Mail Hyperarchives Question/Suggestion
X-Mailer: VM 6.33 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid

Well, the disk space required to add a directory is negligible..or did I miss
something?

I'd say that we should keep one archive, not both Mhonarc and the straight
mail archive.  I've  wanted to set up a mail archive 2 web gateway which
would save on disk space by saving plain mail and filtering it into HTML
before sending it.  No biggie either way, though.

Do you know why there might be a delay in getting mail that I've received on
one of the lists into the archive?

-Eric.


On Thu 16-October, David L. Sifry wrote:
> I did put in an entry into /etc/aliases to capture balug-talk and
> webdevelopers mail directly into mhonarc.  Here's what I use:
> 
> balug-talk: ...majordomo stuff here deleted...  "|/usr/local/bin/mhonarc
> -add -outdir /home/balug/html/ml/balug-talk"
> 
> and
> 
> webdevelopers: ...majordomo stuff deleted... "|/usr/local/bin/mhonarc
> -add -outdir /home/balug/html/ml/webdevelopers"
> 
> This puts everything onto one big page.  I have majordomo already doing
> monthly archives of the lists - they're available at 
> 
> /usr/local/majordomo/lists/balug-talk.archive/ and
> /usr/local/majordomo/lists/webdevelopers.archive/
> 
> I could do what you're proposing at the same time... it's just an extra
> alias and some extra disk space.  Do you think it's useful?
> 
> Dave
> -- 
> Dave Sifry                                 http://www.sifry.com
> david@sifry.com   (408) 471-0667 (voice)   (408) 471-0666 (fax)
> The power of a concept to change people's lives for the better.
> 






Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 08:53:31 -0700
Message-Id: <199710171553.IAA11795@bluedog.sybase.com>
From: "Eric D. Berg" <eberg@sybase.com>
To: Brandon Harris <bharris@gaijin.com>
Cc: webdevelopers@balug.org
Subject: Re: RCS

On Thu 16-October, Brandon Harris wrote:
> > Brandon, at the risk of pissing you off, you might consider laying off the
> > caffeine, too.
> 
> Heck no.  It's my only vice left.  That, and pissing people off.
> I'm up to three pots a day.  I have a blood caffeine level of .2%.
> 'sides, I gotta install oracle on the same machine as I got a
> sybase db running on.  Any gotchas I should be aware of, O Sybase Man?
> (It's sybase 4.0, and we are installing 7.33 oracle - (marketing wants to
> run some odd test.  <shrug>.  they haven't given me a flowchart about it
> yet, though, so i'm happy...)

I'm shocked to hear that anyone would make the decision to actually test
Sybase 4.x against O7.  Please, do me a favor and mention to them that
Sybase has some of the best numbers in the business at the latest versions
(System 11).  They're going about it all wrong if they're concerned about
performance.  Tell them to get some Sybase sales guys out to do some demos or
run some comparisons with Oracle.

As for things to watch out for, check out http://techinfo.sybase.com.  That's
our Technical Information Library.  Of course, the manuals are all on line,
too.  They're at http://sybooks.sybase.com.  Next week we roll out a truly
killer new support web site at http://support.sybase.com, which will provide
easy access to all of the Sybase web offerings.  It's dynamic and way way
cool, based on vignette's Storyserver against a Sybase System 11 back end.

> > I like to call my graphics directory /image or /images, but I tend not to
> > care so long as it's agreed upon by all.
> 
> No matter.  I normally subdivide beneath /graphics (or /images) -
> other directories for other parts of the site.
> 
> 	This brings up another issue:  naming conventions.
> 
> 	My norms:
> 
> 	*.html, always.  not *.htm
> 	I don't use "_", i use "." (prodigal.1.html)

Never .htm.  Agreed.  I use "_", but am not totally comfortable with it.  For
aesthetic reasons, I prefer "-", but even that bugs me somewhere deep down
inside.

> 
> 	multiple syllabalic words I use mix caps casing (AboutUs.html -
> <although, i've been finding myself using a java style naming convention
> that goes "aboutUs.html" at times, too.>)
> 	whatever it is, it should be agreed upon.

You probably mean polysyllabic, but since that means having multiple
syllables, you mean multiple word...er...words. No?  I don't like the later
option.  Caps for major words works for me.

> 
> ALL code should pass weblint.  (since weblint doesn't understand
> javascript, when it complains about "No such element ONMOUSEOVER" that can
> be ignored, I imagine)

Couldn't agree more.  I don't mind ignoring the complaints about percent
values in WIDTH attributes and color-related values, either.

> 
> 	I have a pet peeve with html done in lowercase.  I like
> readability and indentation.  (<HEAD> as opposed to </HEAD>).

I've been doing all lower case for a long time....psgml (xemacs html
editing/parsing mode for those who don't know) but I may be coming around on
that one.

> 
> 	<META TAGS> and <!-- comments --> - thoughts?

Meta's cool for info.  I <!-- comment -->  my HTML to make sure that I can
easily find different sections.  

> 
> 	Hex Codes instead of color names.

Can't complain about that.  Here are two references for getting these values:

HTML Compendium of Elements Color Chart 
http://www.htmlcompendium.org/colors.htm

The 216 colors of Netscape that don't dither 
http://www.connect.hawaii.com/hc/webmasters/Netscape.colors.html


> 
> 	Those are, at any rate, my standards that I would throw in.
> Suggestions?

Care to formalize this into a draft spec?  Nothing fancy, any kind of list
will probably do.

 
> > > > Generally, I don't like frames either, however, when used
> > > > judiciously for navigation on the left side of the page - they can
> > > > be quite effective.
> >
> > I don't mind frames.  Done well, it works just fine.  There is a non-frame
> > issue that we should address.  Ultimately, I try to set up my pages so that I
> > can switch from framed to non-framed versions whenever I wish.  That's
> > another area where SSI comes in handy.
> 
> 	Three line perl script takes care of that.
> 
> > > > I don't undertand the objection to image maps.
> > I didn't catch that, but if it's in reference to non-graphic browsing, a
> > solution which should be implemented anyway is to have a text menu
> > alternative.
> 
> 	Three line perl script takes care of that, too.
> 
> 	(See, Ya'll don't quite know who all is really ON this list, do
> you, oh ye of objecting against this and that and the other.  I remember
> rapping with Eric close to four years ago about web design, in a little
> corner of hell called "slip.net."  he's sybase, i'm sun. . . we can make
> the stuff work.)
> 
> 
> > Java schmava.  Like war, I'm not sure what it's good for in the context of a
> > basic web site.
> 
> 	This is my opinion:  Useful java is okie-fine, but i don't see us
> doing anything seriously funky like automating document exchanges through
> firewalls or needing to run word processors in windows. ('tis not worth a
> damn unless it's 1.1, anyways, and netscape doesn't do but 1.0)
> 	If we are talking about visual effects, animations, etc - there
> are better and easier ways at this point - and javascript is much faster
> than java, especially in image loading.
> 
> Re: objections to javascript:  Sounds to me like someone has a bit
> of a bias, but i'll address it:
> 
> Any technology that puts a person ahead in the game is worthwhile.
> 
> I, for one, will NOT have my name associated with a site that is
> simply going to be two pages and a guestbook.  Sorry.  I've been doing
> this too long to NOT want to make someplace be visually interesting as
> well as content-filled.
> 
> 	Most bad javascript can be fixed with:
> 
> if (navigator.userAgent.indexOf("Mozilla/4.0") != -1) version=4;
>         else if (navigator.userAgent.indexOf("Mozilla/3.0") != -1) version=3;
>         else if (navigator.userAgent.indexOf("Mozilla/2.0") != -1) version=2;
>         else if (navigator.userAgent.indexOf("MSIE") != -1) version=1;
>         else version = 0;
> 
> and/or by putting comments around <SCRIPT> tags. 
> 
> We have the skills to pay the bills.  We also have the skills (and
> manpower, apparantly) to pay the bills in spades, and thus I see no reason
> why we can't make everyone happy.  You want a bland, ugly page that will
> load very fast in lynx?  hey.  no problem.  You hit the site, and yer
> there.  Graphics taking too long?  check your isp.  I use graphics
> extensively, everywhere.  And they are all small, and the largest ones
> only have 32 colors in the map, and load in under 3 seconds on average to
> a 28.8 modem.  (Checking www.gaijin.com isn't a fair test, as it's
> currently bandwidth constrained.)
> 	Most people just don't know how to make optimized graphics, is
> all.
> 	(that, btw, is part of what all of this is about - learning
> things.  I'm certain that everyone here has at least one or two things
> that they could learn from other people)

Hey, I'm about to install DeBabelizer for Windows.  Ooooohhh.  DeBab has long
been one of the best graphics manipulation tools on the Mac.  It excels in
automation and palette manipulation.  A quick script can dice and slice any
graphics into web shape in a jiffy. 

I'd like to try some dynamic content negotiation with our graphics at some
point.  That's where you reference your images without a descriptive type
suffix such as .gif or .jpg, make the images available in multiple formats
with the suffixes and let the browser and server hash out which to serve.
Useful?  Well, it's cool, and then we could use .png graphics as well.  But
this is just a curiosity of mine.

> 
> 	We *ARE* the *BAY AREA*, dig?  We roll over everyone.  You want
> some idjit in fookin <insert yer least favorite place here> to have a
> better LUG site than us?

We represent the Linux community, too.

> 	(I propose we build a "beat up on richard stallman" page, too.)
> 
> 
> Color Scheme:
> 
> <something> and black OR white.  Purple and orange backgrounds are
> terrible.  Black and white backgrounds (and greys) are clean and crisp,
> and easier to gauge readability on.  (With a black site, you want to use
> #DDDDDD for text, though, as white on black vibrates.)

No textured backgrounds.  More often than not, they make the text difficult
to read.

> 
> 	I use black and green, so i like them a lot, but ya know . . .
> 
> 	I've got a neat looking purple and black scheme i've been wanting
> to use, too, and one that uses a blue.
> 	(geez.)

What do you all think out there?  Anyone want to come up with a logo graphic?

-Eric.

Eric Berg
eberg@sybase.com -- 510-922-5610
Sr. Web Engineer -- Sybase, Inc.





Comments: Authenticated sender is <cbeisner@mail.sirius.com>
From: "Cydny Fire Eisner" <cbeisner@sirius.com>
To: webdevelopers@balug.org
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:11:19 +0000

We all have differing opinions on site development & design.

Again I pose the question:

How are we making decisions?

Is David the final arbiter because he is hosting the site?
Do we trash a proposal because of a single objection?
Or Does majority rule?
If majority rules, what is a majority (how many people are on this 
team) & what about new  members?



I don't know that this is a draft spec, But I will summarize what
Eric & Brandon have agreed to: (perhaps we could all put our initials
in square brackets - [CE] - next to items we agree with & insert
alternate proposals in parens just underneath each item)

ARCHITECTURE:
    General Graphics dir name = images  [CE]

    Main Site Pages 
- Who we are
- Meeting Information
- Local Linux Information
- Other Linux Information
- Speaker Notes
- Mailing List Archives
- Server Statistics


    

NAMING
  Capitalize concatenated words  [CE]
  Use .html for all HTML filename extensions  [CE]
  (proposed) Use . or - instead of _



DESIGN STYLE
  (proposed) Total download time/page 14.4 kb = 30 seconds
  (I have a tool that calculates the download time for most speeds)
  
  (proposed)  Image based nav elements with Javascript MouseOvers 
with text nav line for the nonGraphics Crowd  [CE]
    
  (proposed) Background Color - Black   [CE]
  (proposed) Background Color - White
  (proposed) Text Color - Purple


HTML TAG STYLE
  Comment with an eye towards maintenance  [CE]
  Include META tags    [CE]
  (proposed) All HTML tags in CAPS   [CE]
   Colour codes in Hex (I have a hex chart for anyone that needs it)  
[CE]

  Indent Tags  [CE]
  
----------------------------

As far as frames, images & general design: 

The web is a visual & interactive medium. The tools & technology of 
any  medium dictates part of its aesthetic - you see that in film,
video, painting, printmaking etc. Bandwith & screen size are both
elements that help define that aesthetic, so is interactivity. No
experienced Web developer, who is concerned with her or his craft, is
going to ignore these limitations & challanges set by bandwidth &
screen size etc. That is why I suggested that we set a standard -
either download time/page or total image kb/page for images.
However, I think it would be very boring not to incorporate visual 
elements into the design.

I would like to see is an interactive nav bar/elements that change
with mouseOvers.  A framed page with the main nav elements in the
left frame & main content in the right frame.  If not used for the
main nav, then for links page.


As for my inquiry about databases & java: I am starting to play with
a couple of Linux based databases & the JDBC.  I  find that its
always better to have a little project to work on while I'm playing.
I thought it might be beneficial to both of us (me & the BALUG Web
project) incorporate this into the site - for instance to manage the
links list or a members directory via a database & let the database
generate those pages.  Since there is so much objection to that,
I'll look for a project elsewhere. 

Regards,
Cydny
Cydny Fire Eisner                       cbeisner@sirius.com                
  
Database & Web Development
Business Process Automation
Project Management
Film Production





Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 23:54:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Brandon Harris <bharris@gaijin.com>
To: "Eric D. Berg" <eberg@sybase.com>
cc: webdevelopers@balug.org
Subject: Re: RCS

> Brandon, at the risk of pissing you off, you might consider laying off the
> caffeine, too.

	Heck no.  It's my only vice left.  That, and pissing people off.
I'm up to three pots a day.  I have a blood caffeine level of .2%.
	'sides, I gotta install oracle on the same machine as I got a
sybase db running on.  Any gotchas I should be aware of, O Sybase Man?
(It's sybase 4.0, and we are installing 7.33 oracle - (marketing wants to
run some odd test.  <shrug>.  they haven't given me a flowchart about it
yet, though, so i'm happy...)

> I like to call my graphics directory /image or /images, but I tend not to
> care so long as it's agreed upon by all.

	No matter.  I normally subdivide beneath /graphics (or /images) -
other directories for other parts of the site.

	This brings up another issue:  naming conventions.

	My norms:

	*.html, always.  not *.htm
	I don't use "_", i use "." (prodigal.1.html)

	multiple syllabalic words I use mix caps casing (AboutUs.html -
<although, i've been finding myself using a java style naming convention
that goes "aboutUs.html" at times, too.>)
	whatever it is, it should be agreed upon.

	ALL code should pass weblint.  (since weblint doesn't understand
javascript, when it complains about "No such element ONMOUSEOVER" that can
be ignored, I imagine)

	I have a pet peeve with html done in lowercase.  I like
readability and indentation.  (<HEAD> as opposed to </HEAD>).

	<META TAGS> and <!-- comments --> - thoughts?

	Hex Codes instead of color names.

	Those are, at any rate, my standards that I would throw in.
Suggestions?


> > > Generally, I don't like frames either, however, when used
> > > judiciously for navigation on the left side of the page - they can
> > > be quite effective.
>
> I don't mind frames.  Done well, it works just fine.  There is a non-frame
> issue that we should address.  Ultimately, I try to set up my pages so that I
> can switch from framed to non-framed versions whenever I wish.  That's
> another area where SSI comes in handy.

	Three line perl script takes care of that.

> > > I don't undertand the objection to image maps.
> I didn't catch that, but if it's in reference to non-graphic browsing, a
> solution which should be implemented anyway is to have a text menu
> alternative.

	Three line perl script takes care of that, too.

	(See, Ya'll don't quite know who all is really ON this list, do
you, oh ye of objecting against this and that and the other.  I remember
rapping with Eric close to four years ago about web design, in a little
corner of hell called "slip.net."  he's sybase, i'm sun. . . we can make
the stuff work.)


> Java schmava.  Like war, I'm not sure what it's good for in the context of a
> basic web site.

	This is my opinion:  Useful java is okie-fine, but i don't see us
doing anything seriously funky like automating document exchanges through
firewalls or needing to run word processors in windows. ('tis not worth a
damn unless it's 1.1, anyways, and netscape doesn't do but 1.0)
	If we are talking about visual effects, animations, etc - there
are better and easier ways at this point - and javascript is much faster
than java, especially in image loading.

	Re: objections to javascript:  Sounds to me like someone has a bit
of a bias, but i'll address it:

	Any technology that puts a person ahead in the game is worthwhile.

	I, for one, will NOT have my name associated with a site that is
simply going to be two pages and a guestbook.  Sorry.  I've been doing
this too long to NOT want to make someplace be visually interesting as
well as content-filled.

	Most bad javascript can be fixed with:

if (navigator.userAgent.indexOf("Mozilla/4.0") != -1) version=4;
        else if (navigator.userAgent.indexOf("Mozilla/3.0") != -1) version=3;
        else if (navigator.userAgent.indexOf("Mozilla/2.0") != -1) version=2;
        else if (navigator.userAgent.indexOf("MSIE") != -1) version=1;
        else version = 0;

and/or by putting comments around <SCRIPT> tags. 

	We have the skills to pay the bills.  We also have the skills (and
manpower, apparantly) to pay the bills in spades, and thus I see no reason
why we can't make everyone happy.  You want a bland, ugly page that will
load very fast in lynx?  hey.  no problem.  You hit the site, and yer
there.  Graphics taking too long?  check your isp.  I use graphics
extensively, everywhere.  And they are all small, and the largest ones
only have 32 colors in the map, and load in under 3 seconds on average to
a 28.8 modem.  (Checking www.gaijin.com isn't a fair test, as it's
currently bandwidth constrained.)
	Most people just don't know how to make optimized graphics, is
all.
	(that, btw, is part of what all of this is about - learning
things.  I'm certain that everyone here has at least one or two things
that they could learn from other people)

	We *ARE* the *BAY AREA*, dig?  We roll over everyone.  You want
some idjit in fookin <insert yer least favorite place here> to have a
better LUG site than us?

	(I propose we build a "beat up on richard stallman" page, too.)


Color Scheme:

	<something> and black OR white.  Purple and orange backgrounds are
terrible.  Black and white backgrounds (and greys) are clean and crisp,
and easier to gauge readability on.  (With a black site, you want to use
#DDDDDD for text, though, as white on black vibrates.)

	I use black and green, so i like them a lot, but ya know . . .

	I've got a neat looking purple and black scheme i've been wanting
to use, too, and one that uses a blue.
	(geez.)



> Regarding the specific content areas, I'll quote previous messages:
> 
> On Tue, 19 Aug 1997 18:11:02 -0700 (PDT) in
> <199708200111.SAA05860@hugin.imat.com>, Rick, Moen wrote

	I had apparantly missed this message.

	Tasks:
	
		* Decide standards.
		* Decide color scheme/graphical theme
		* Assign pages.
		* Code.
		* Release.


	I'm in a pitbull mood.  Sorry.

	-b.

---
Brandon Harris
Sun Certified Solaris Administrator             http://www.gaijin.com/
   bharris@gaijin.com                         jormungandr@sfnet.com
       Unix : Security : HTML : CGI : NT : USENIX : SAGE : NCSA







Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 18:41:40 -0700
From: "David L. Sifry" <david@sifry.com>
Organization: Sifry Consulting
To: "Eric D. Berg" <eberg@sybase.com>, webdevelopers@balug.org
Subject: Re: Mail Hyperarchives Question/Suggestion

I did put in an entry into /etc/aliases to capture balug-talk and
webdevelopers mail directly into mhonarc.  Here's what I use:

balug-talk: ...majordomo stuff here deleted...  "|/usr/local/bin/mhonarc
-add -outdir /home/balug/html/ml/balug-talk"

and

webdevelopers: ...majordomo stuff deleted... "|/usr/local/bin/mhonarc
-add -outdir /home/balug/html/ml/webdevelopers"

This puts everything onto one big page.  I have majordomo already doing
monthly archives of the lists - they're available at 

/usr/local/majordomo/lists/balug-talk.archive/ and
/usr/local/majordomo/lists/webdevelopers.archive/

I could do what you're proposing at the same time... it's just an extra
alias and some extra disk space.  Do you think it's useful?

Dave
-- 
Dave Sifry                                 http://www.sifry.com
david@sifry.com   (408) 471-0667 (voice)   (408) 471-0666 (fax)
The power of a concept to change people's lives for the better.





Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 18:34:47 -0700
From: "David L. Sifry" <david@sifry.com>
Organization: Sifry Consulting
To: webdevelopers@balug.org
Subject: Re: Web site architecture, style, etc

Nathan Myers wrote:
> Dave Sifry suggests:
> >
> > I recommend that each of the big 5 areas (images, who, meeting, local,
> > global) also have an image directory to hold images used by html files
> > in each specific directory.
> 
> I can't see any reason to "balkanize" the directory so much.
> Certainly it reduces clutter to put files you don't edit
> off in subdirectories, but beyond that you risk cluttering
> with directories.  Thus, I would suggest:
> 
>   .             html text, subdirectories
>   ./images      Pictures
>   ./cgi-bin     Scripts
>   ./stats       Server-generated statistics
>   ./RCS         RCS logs

Sure, I've got no problems with that.  Any objections?

Dave
-- 
Dave Sifry                                 http://www.sifry.com
david@sifry.com   (408) 471-0667 (voice)   (408) 471-0666 (fax)
The power of a concept to change people's lives for the better.






Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:21:27 -0700
From: "Eric D. Berg" <eberg@sybase.com>
To: BALUG Web Developers List <webdevelopers@balug.org>
Subject: Mail Hyperarchives Question/Suggestion

Dave,

I'm not sure if you've got an entry in /etc/aliases to capture balug and
web-developer mail directly into MHONARC, but here's the line that I
use in (my now famous) procmail setup.  It's pretty easy.

| /usr/u/eberg/bin/mhonarc -add  -quiet -umask 022 \
	-idxfname index.html \
	-outdir "/home/eberg/www/mail-archives/eberg/`date +%y%m`/"

The `date +%y%m` part splits it into months in the format "yymm" for easy
sorting in a directory listing.

Mhonarc doesn't (at first glance) create non-existent directories, so I went
ahead an created directories for the rest of 97 and all of 98 in the
expectation that I'll continue to receive mail through next year.

I asked, because I didn't see any "Web site archetecture..." messages in the
archive and as you know, I've had a few mail problems in the past couple of
days.

-Eric.


Eric Berg
eberg@sybase.com -- 510-922-5610
Sr. Web Engineer -- Sybase, Inc.






Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 16:36:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: ncm@cantrip.org (Nathan Myers)
To: david@sifry.com
Subject: Re: Web site architecture, style, etc
Cc: webdevelopers@balug.org

Dave Sifry suggests:
 
> So, I propose we create the following directory structure:
> 
> html/ 		The base (for the index page, etc)
> html/images	Globally used images
> html/who	Who we are
> html/meeting	Meeting information
> html/local	Local linux info
> html/global	Other linux info
> html/speaker	Speaker notes
> html/ml		Mailing list archives
> html/stats	Server statistics
> cgi-bin/	For cgi-scripts
> 
> I recommend that each of the big 5 areas (images, who, meeting, local,
> global) also have an image directory to hold images used by html files
> in each specific directory.
 
I can't see any reason to "balkanize" the directory so much.
Certainly it reduces clutter to put files you don't edit
off in subdirectories, but beyond that you risk cluttering 
with directories.  Thus, I would suggest:

  .             html text, subdirectories
  ./images      Pictures
  ./cgi-bin     Scripts
  ./stats       Server-generated statistics
  ./RCS         RCS logs

Nathan Myers
ncm@cantrip.org




Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 16:29:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: ncm@cantrip.org (Nathan Myers)
To: webdevelopers@balug.org
Subject: frames etc

Cydny Fire Eisner says: 

> Additionally, I'm starting to play with mSQL & Java, any objections
> to using these for the website?  mSQL is free to registered 
> nonprofits.  I understand that BALUG isn't a 501 (c) corp, but I 
> think we can convince Mr. Hughes that we qualify in spirit.

If Dave is willing to run postgres scripts on his server, and somebody 
comes up with something meaningful to do with it, great!  Likewise for
Java -- as long as it's doing something that is dispensable, or something
is eminently practical in Java, then why not?  

Javascript, I won't use under any circumstances whatsoever.  The 
only Javascript I can see putting on the page is a script to shut 
down the user's browser if it has Javascript enabled.  

> Have any decisions been made as to style, colors, amount of images
> (kb) per page, architecture etc.  I know that someone mentioned that
> they didn't like frames or image maps.  How will decisions be made
> regarding these kinds of decisions - (one person / one vote;
> benevolent leader makes the final decision; flip a coin)?

Just do something reasonable and somebody will squawk if 
it's not right -- or just fix it.  An example of something
wrong is a page that is ugly (or doesn't work) if you have 
graphics downloading turned off, or doesn't work if you have 
javascript or java disabled, or if your browser doesn't support 
frames.

> Generally, I don't like frames either, however, when used
> judiciously for navigation on the left side of the page - they can
> be quite effective.

As long as frames don't make the page less useful for people who
use a browser that doesn't have them.  Personally, I think they
stink; only people who use only a huge monitor could really like 
them.  Sometimes I use a huge monitor, other times I don't.

Lynx "supports" frames, now, but they are largely unusable anyway
because people don't label their frames properly.  That can be
ameliorated if the page is by somebody competent and considerate.

> I don't undertand the objection to image maps.

I do.

To be useful, an image map requires a picture, which means that 
to use it I must wait for some stupid picture to trickle through 
my ISP and my modem before I can get on with what I meant to do.
Furthermore, it is useless in Lynx.

Nathan Myers
ncm@cantrip.org






Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 14:34:30 -0700
From: "David L. Sifry" <david@sifry.com>
Organization: Sifry Consulting
To: webdevelopers@balug.org
Subject: Web site architecture, style, etc

This has been an interesting discussion.

My feelings on style, colors, images/page, architecture, etc are as
follows:

I would like to see us use a multipage site, with an index page and
possibly a navigation bar to hold it all together.  I'd like to see
items that relate to each other on the same page.  I don't think we
really need to get carried away with databases and the big CGI scripts,
java, or even javascript.  No need for lots of bells and whistles.  I
don't have the time to spend to put that together and maintain it.  If
someone is willing to maintain it, I have no problem with a big site,
however.  I know how much time and energy go into keeping even a small
site up-to-date, however.

As for images, I prefer we keep them small and bandwidth friendly.  I
recomment Lynda Weinman's books as great references on how to do this
effectively.  Check out http://www.lynda.com/ for some on-line stuff
too.

I want to keep our pages lynx-friendly, and non-browser specific.  No
special plug-ins should be needed.  Even with graphics enabled, they
should load in under 30 seconds for those with 14.4 modems.

I like tables, and I dislike frames.  Frames are too easy to screw up,
and they are unfriendly to people who do not come in through your front
door.  I'd prefer to use tables for formatting.  I am willing to change
my mind, if you can convince me otherwise.

As for content, I like what has been discussed already.  I think we all
have done a great job locating and putting together 7 main areas of
interest - 

- Who we are
- Meeting Information
- Local Linux Information
- Other Linux Information
- Speaker Notes
- Mailing List Archives
- Server Statistics

So, I propose we create the following directory structure:

html/ 		The base (for the index page, etc)
html/images	Globally used images
html/who	Who we are
html/meeting	Meeting information
html/local	Local linux info
html/global	Other linux info
html/speaker	Speaker notes
html/ml		Mailing list archives
html/stats	Server statistics
cgi-bin/	For cgi-scripts

I recommend that each of the big 5 areas (images, who, meeting, local,
global) also have an image directory to hold images used by html files
in each specific directory.

Whaddaya think?

Dave
-- 
Dave Sifry                                 http://www.sifry.com
david@sifry.com   (408) 471-0667 (voice)   (408) 471-0666 (fax)
The power of a concept to change people's lives for the better.





Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 14:13:08 -0700
From: "David L. Sifry" <david@sifry.com>
Organization: Sifry Consulting
To: webdevelopers@balug.org
Subject: Workshops at the meetings

Jim Dennis wrote:

        Perhaps we could have a workshop session on RCS/CVS
        for managing web pages and configuration files.  We could
        call it:

                
                Revision Control for Webmaster and SysAdmins

        Overall I'd make it a higher priority to get to the meetings
        if they had workshop content of this sort.  I'd be willing
        to host/lead workshops in a few things that I'm pretty good
        at (like using mh-e as a mail-handling interface, or compiling
        new kernels, or "using virtual consoles and terminals effectively" 
        (Linux without X) and things like that).

        At some point I'd like to finish my current work in
        progress (http://www.starshine.org/jimd/work-in-progress.html,
        www.starshine.org/linux/, and www.starshine.org/os/) and put that
        up at BALUG's site.  At the same time I've already got new
        (GNU?) content to add to it in my newest bookmarks file.

That sounds great, Jim!  You should suggest it on the balug-talk list or
at the next meeting.

Dave
-- 
Dave Sifry                                 http://www.sifry.com
david@sifry.com   (408) 471-0667 (voice)   (408) 471-0666 (fax)
The power of a concept to change people's lives for the better.






Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 14:08:11 -0700
From: "David L. Sifry" <david@sifry.com>
Organization: Sifry Consulting
To: webdevelopers@balug.org
Subject: the "balug" group on balug.org

A quick reminder - 

The server hosting the balug.org pages is based on RedHat 4.2.  As such,
each user is put into his own group when the account is generated.

All balug-related users are also made a member of the "balug" group. 
When you're doing work on the balug site, cd to /home/balug.  The HTML
document root is /home/balug/html/.

By default, all new files created will be created with your default user
and group.  Unfortunately, this means that no one else will be able to
access the files (unless you make them read-writeable by other).  All I
ask is that you change the group you're in before you do any
balug-related work.  You can do this by typing:

newgrp balug

at the command line.  This will make your default group the balug group,
which means that you don't need to set the "other" permissions at all. 
Your default umask should be 007 which means that files you create will
be -rw-rw----.

I thought about adding "newgrp balug" to everyone's ~/.bashrc files to
make sure we do this, but decided against it.  What do you think?

If there's anyone who is serious about doing work on the balug.org site
but doesn't have an account on the server, let me know, and I'll set one
up for you.

Dave
-- 
Dave Sifry                                 http://www.sifry.com
david@sifry.com   (408) 471-0667 (voice)   (408) 471-0666 (fax)
The power of a concept to change people's lives for the better.





Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 09:34:19 -0700
From: "Eric D. Berg" <eberg@sybase.com>
To: webdevelopers@balug.org
Subject: Re: RCS

On Wed 15-October, Brandon Harris wrote:
<SNIP!> 
> > Have any decisions been made as to style, colors, amount of images
> > (kb) per page, architecture etc.  I know that someone mentioned that
> > they didn't like frames or image maps.  How will decisions be made
> > regarding these kinds of decisions - (one person / one vote;
> > benevolent leader makes the final decision; flip a coin)?
> 
> 	I am the arbitrar of all things.  Votes?  pah.  vote all you want.
> I'll just send my jackbooted Secret Police to change your mind.
> 	And I'm trying to quit smoking right now, so don't piss me off.
> 	<blink>

Brandon, at the risk of pissing you off, you might consider laying off the
caffeine, too.
> 
> 	Seriously, though - after having some experience in designing
> sites for linux/X (www.gaijin.com/X and the PFD /linux/), I have
> discovered that things get out of hand VERY FAST if there is no set
> directory mappings, etc.  even if you are only using five pages.

Agreed.

I like to call my graphics directory /image or /images, but I tend not to
care so long as it's agreed upon by all.

> > Generally, I don't like frames either, however, when used
> > judiciously for navigation on the left side of the page - they can
> > be quite effective.
> 

I don't mind frames.  Done well, it works just fine.  There is a non-frame
issue that we should address.  Ultimately, I try to set up my pages so that I
can switch from framed to non-framed versions whenever I wish.  That's
another area where SSI comes in handy.

> > I don't undertand the objection to image maps.

I didn't catch that, but if it's in reference to non-graphic browsing, a
solution which should be implemented anyway is to have a text menu
alternative.

> 
> 	Further, JavaScriptish?  Java-ish?
> 	I have a much bigger objection to Java than I do javascript
> (although javascript doesn't work on Javastations, but I dont' figure
> that's an issue) *I*, personally, will ALWAYS click "back" if there is a
> java applet that takes too long before it does anything and/or is
> useless/fluff (ala the sickeningly ubiquitous "side scroller" apps, etc.)
> 	I suggest javascript for most of it.  Faster.

Java schmava.  Like war, I'm not sure what it's good for in the context of a
basic web site.

> 	Sorry if I'm sounding harsh and what not - I want to help, but I'm
> also working 50+ hours a week, not including commute to menlo, so it would
> be cool if there were some direction determined and decisions made.
> 
> 	My current thoughts:
> 
> 	White background.
> 	Structure:
> 		/
> 		/graphics/
> 		/code/  (local cgi)

Let's call it /cgi-bin/ just to be adherents to convention.

> 		/data/ (local "nobody writable" data directory, if needed)

Regarding the specific content areas, I'll quote previous messages:

On Tue, 19 Aug 1997 18:11:02 -0700 (PDT) in
<199708200111.SAA05860@hugin.imat.com>, Rick, Moen wrote

> Things to put on a User's Group Page
> 
>        Our Official name
>        Our meeting schedule
>        Our points of contact
>               (e-mail address of the officers postal address, etc)
>        Our charter
>        Aggenda's
>               for any upcoming meetings that have been planned
>        Notes/Minutes from recent meetings
>               for any upcoming meetings that have been planned
>        Notes/Minutes from recent meetings
>        Links to other UG's and SIG's
>        List of Resources (with links as appropriate)
>        Volunteers (like me)
>               who will help newbies and non-profit orgs.
>        Consultants (also like me)
>               who will do professional configuration/admin for businesses.
>        Local Companies
>               Who sell Linux CD's and Materials (like Craftworks,
>               Yggdrassil, InfoMagic, Univeral CD-Rom and Walnut Creek)
>        ISP's (esp. those using Linux in their hosts)
>               Others (like Apple: Re: their recent mkLinux port)

And I had added:

  -- pointers to local mirrors
  -- the fact that Borders carries Linux books and CD/book combos.
  -- member profiles
  -- mailing list archives, using procmail and hypermail]

So, let me propose:

Who we are.
	o Official name
	o points of contact
	o Membership info
	o Charter
	o Member list/links

Meeting Info.
	o Schedule/Agendas for upcoming meetings
	o Meeting Minutes
	o directions to the meeting place

Local Linux Info.
	o Other local LUGs and non L UGs
	o Where to get Linux stuff locally (i.e., books, CDs)
	o Local mirrors
	o Local Linux Companies, incl. consultants, and the Yggdrasil/CD-ROM lot

Linux Info.
	o Requisite page of links to LDP, Linux.org, Sunsite, 
	o Notes from talks given at our own meetings, such as that which we've
	  discussed relating to RCS.

That's it for now, got some work to do.

-Eric.

Eric Berg
eberg@sybase.com -- 510-922-5610
Sr. Web Engineer -- Sybase, Inc.






Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:20:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Brandon Harris <bharris@gaijin.com>
To: Cydny Fire Eisner <cbeisner@sirius.com>
cc: webdevelopers@balug.org
Subject: Re: RCS

	Foist, I must have missed something, because all this rcs stuff
don't mean diddly to me if i can't access the machine. . . 

> Additionally, I'm starting to play with mSQL & Java, any objections
> to using these for the website?  mSQL is free to registered 
> nonprofits.  I understand that BALUG isn't a 501 (c) corp, but I 
> think we can convince Mr. Hughes that we qualify in spirit.

	postgres is free-er and more robust.  Might wanna think about
that.  
	I'm not sure what use there would be for a database, though.

	If we use one, i'd suggest that we stick with either jdbc or
perl-DBI.  <shrug>

> Have any decisions been made as to style, colors, amount of images
> (kb) per page, architecture etc.  I know that someone mentioned that
> they didn't like frames or image maps.  How will decisions be made
> regarding these kinds of decisions - (one person / one vote;
> benevolent leader makes the final decision; flip a coin)?


	I am the arbitrar of all things.  Votes?  pah.  vote all you want.
I'll just send my jackbooted Secret Police to change your mind.
	And I'm trying to quit smoking right now, so don't piss me off.
	<blink>

	Seriously, though - after having some experience in designing
sites for linux/X (www.gaijin.com/X and the PFD /linux/), I have
discovered that things get out of hand VERY FAST if there is no set
directory mappings, etc.  even if you are only using five pages.



> Generally, I don't like frames either, however, when used
> judiciously for navigation on the left side of the page - they can
> be quite effective.

	Agreed.  I normally just say "Don't like the way my personal site
looks/feels?  Too fucking bad.  I'm not getting paid for this, so i've not
the time to develop non-frame versions," but in this case, we could not
tell people "too bad."


> 
> I don't undertand the objection to image maps.

	Further, JavaScriptish?  Java-ish?
	I have a much bigger objection to Java than I do javascript
(although javascript doesn't work on Javastations, but I dont' figure
that's an issue) *I*, personally, will ALWAYS click "back" if there is a
java applet that takes too long before it does anything and/or is
useless/fluff (ala the sickeningly ubiquitous "side scroller" apps, etc.)
	I suggest javascript for most of it.  Faster.


	Sorry if I'm sounding harsh and what not - I want to help, but I'm
also working 50+ hours a week, not including commute to menlo, so it would
be cool if there were some direction determined and decisions made.

	My current thoughts:

	White background.
	Structure:
		/
		/graphics/
		/code/  (local cgi)
		/data/ (local "nobody writable" data directory, if needed)

	We haven't decided on content yet, so there isn't any point in
defining it further.

	-b.

---
Brandon Harris
Sun Certified Solaris Administrator             http://www.gaijin.com/
   bharris@gaijin.com                         jormungandr@sfnet.com
       Unix : Security : HTML : CGI : NT : USENIX : SAGE : NCSA






Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 17:30:48 -0700
From: "Eric D. Berg" <eberg@sybase.com>
To: Jim Dennis <jimd@starshine.org>
Cc: webdevelopers@balug.org
Subject: Re: New index page 


<CUT OUT LOGS OF STUFF>
> > 
> 	Eric,
> 
> 	While you're giving the (much appreciated) tutorial on 
> 	RCS (I use the ci and co -l  commands all the time already)
> 	-- do you know how to remove a lock left by another user?

That would be the -u[rev] parameter.  When you `co -u index.html` it should
"steal" the lock and prompt you for a message to be send via email.  That's
usually just a "user eberg stole the lock for file index.html" or something
like that.

One of my favorite aliases is:

alias rlocked rlog -L -R -l$USER {,RCS/}*,v

which lists the names of the files locked by $USER in the current directory.
There's a bunch of cool stuff that you can do with rlog, this being one of
them.  If you leave out the -l parameter, I believe it will print the names
of all of the locked files.

> 
> 	So far I've done things like 'su -' to that user and 
> 	ci their changes.  Once I directly edited the RCS/*,v 
> 	file to remove the lock (since that user no longer had
> 	rights to modify the file).

Ouch.  Works, but isn't exactly elegant.  We had a case here when I first got
here (before I threw fits about just this) where all of our files for a
certain (mission critical) project were edited by one specific username, so
we all had to su to that user to ci and co.  It was ugly, and made uglier by
our using SCCS.  Again, I say Ouch!

> 
> 	I'm curious as to how it's "supposed" to be done.
> 
> 	Perhaps we could have a workshop session on RCS/CVS
> 	for managing web pages and configuration files.  We could
> 	call it:
> 
> 		
> 		Revision Control for Webmaster and SysAdmins

I like it.  Let's put that on the list.  I'll do what I can for that one.

-Eric.

> 
> 	Overall I'd make it a higher priority to get to the meetings
> 	if they had workshop content of this sort.  I'd be willing
> 	to host/lead workshops in a few things that I'm pretty good
> 	at (like using mh-e as a mail-handling interface, or compiling
> 	new kernels, or "using virtual consoles and terminals effectively" 
> 	(Linux without X) and things like that).
> 
> 	At some point I'd like to finish my current work in
> 	progress (http://www.starshine.org/jimd/work-in-progress.html,
> 	www.starshine.org/linux/, and www.starshine.org/os/) and put that
> 	up at BALUG's site.  At the same time I've already got new
> 	(GNU?) content to add to it in my newest bookmarks file.
> 
> CD:
> 
> 	One other note.  I've collected a bunch of material that 
> 	might be of interest to members.  I hope to burn a couple
> 	of CD's and make those available for individual download
> 	(i.e. these are things that have copyright restrictions 
> 	that allow them to be downloaded from public sites, like
> 	Netscape, but don't allow them to be redistributed on media).
> 
> 	My (admittedly amateur) interpretation is that its fine to 
> 	freely let people copy this material from my CD (as though
> 	I were a high bandwidth FTP server) but not for me to 
> 	make copies of this CD for sale -- possibly not even for 
> 	loan).
> 	
> 
> --
> Jim Dennis  (800) 938-4078		consulting@starshine.org
> Proprietor, Starshine Technical Services:  http://www.starshine.org
>         PGP  1024/2ABF03B1 Jim Dennis <jim@starshine.org>
>         Key fingerprint =  2524E3FEF0922A84  A27BDEDB38EBB95A 







To: "Eric D. Berg" <eberg@sybase.com>
Cc: webdevelopers@balug.org
X-Mailer: MH 8.6.3
Subject: Re: New index page 
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:34:28 -0700
From: Jim Dennis <jimd@starshine.org>

	Eric,

	While you're giving the (much appreciated) tutorial on 
	RCS (I use the ci and co -l  commands all the time already)
	-- do you know how to remove a lock left by another user?

	So far I've done things like 'su -' to that user and 
	ci their changes.  Once I directly edited the RCS/*,v 
	file to remove the lock (since that user no longer had
	rights to modify the file).

	I'm curious as to how it's "supposed" to be done.

	Perhaps we could have a workshop session on RCS/CVS
	for managing web pages and configuration files.  We could
	call it:

		
		Revision Control for Webmaster and SysAdmins

	Overall I'd make it a higher priority to get to the meetings
	if they had workshop content of this sort.  I'd be willing
	to host/lead workshops in a few things that I'm pretty good
	at (like using mh-e as a mail-handling interface, or compiling
	new kernels, or "using virtual consoles and terminals effectively" 
	(Linux without X) and things like that).

	At some point I'd like to finish my current work in
	progress (http://www.starshine.org/jimd/work-in-progress.html,
	www.starshine.org/linux/, and www.starshine.org/os/) and put that
	up at BALUG's site.  At the same time I've already got new
	(GNU?) content to add to it in my newest bookmarks file.

CD:

	One other note.  I've collected a bunch of material that 
	might be of interest to members.  I hope to burn a couple
	of CD's and make those available for individual download
	(i.e. these are things that have copyright restrictions 
	that allow them to be downloaded from public sites, like
	Netscape, but don't allow them to be redistributed on media).

	My (admittedly amateur) interpretation is that its fine to 
	freely let people copy this material from my CD (as though
	I were a high bandwidth FTP server) but not for me to 
	make copies of this CD for sale -- possibly not even for 
	loan).
	

--
Jim Dennis  (800) 938-4078		consulting@starshine.org
Proprietor, Starshine Technical Services:  http://www.starshine.org
        PGP  1024/2ABF03B1 Jim Dennis <jim@starshine.org>
        Key fingerprint =  2524E3FEF0922A84  A27BDEDB38EBB95A 






Message 44/218  From Cydny Fire Eisner              Oct 15, 97 09:57:31 pm +0000
Comments: Authenticated sender is <cbeisner@mail.sirius.com>
To: webdevelopers@balug.org
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 21:57:31 +0000
Subject: RCS

> > It can certainly use some more work - to make changes to the index page,
> > you'll need to "check out" the page from RCS - use:
> > 
> > co -l index.html

I'm not familiar with RCS.  Can someone direct me to some 
documentation or a tutorial?

Also, I have some time today & will do some work on the page.  I'd 
like to break it up into separate pages (references/links, meeting 
info etc).

Speaking of the links, I'd like to add a link to the local FreeBSD 
group.  Are there any objections?

Additionally, I'm starting to play with mSQL & Java, any objections
to using these for the website?  mSQL is free to registered 
nonprofits.  I understand that BALUG isn't a 501 (c) corp, but I 
think we can convince Mr. Hughes that we qualify in spirit.

Have any decisions been made as to style, colors, amount of images
(kb) per page, architecture etc.  I know that someone mentioned that
they didn't like frames or image maps.  How will decisions be made
regarding these kinds of decisions - (one person / one vote;
benevolent leader makes the final decision; flip a coin)?

Generally, I don't like frames either, however, when used
judiciously for navigation on the left side of the page - they can
be quite effective.

I don't undertand the objection to image maps.

Regards,
Cydny 



Cydny Fire Eisner                       cbeisner@sirius.com                
  
Database & Web Development
Business Process Automation
Project Management
Film Production






Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:51:07 -0700
From: "Eric D. Berg" <eberg@sybase.com>
To: webdevelopers@balug.org
Subject: Re: New index page

On Wed 15-October, David L. Sifry wrote:
> Hi all!
> 
> I made some changes to the index page at http://www.balug.org/ - it's not
> pretty, but it reflects the info for the October meeting, and the new
> info on the web archives of the mailing lists.

Thank god!  I mean, thank you, Dave.  It definitely needed it.

> 
> It can certainly use some more work - to make changes to the index page,
> you'll need to "check out" the page from RCS - use:
> 
> co -l index.html
> 
> This will give you read-write access to the page in question.  Make your
> changes and then check the page back in with:
> 
> ci index.html
> co index.html
> 
> You need the second "co" cammand because otherwise the page disappears into
> RCS purgatory.

The way around the second "co" (which is Check Out, BTW) is to do a 

`co -u index.html`

which keeps the file unlocked, and retains a copy in the current directory.

So that's 

co -l index.html
<edit the file>
ci -u index.html

> 
> When you do the "ci", you'll be asked to type in a log of the actions you've
> taken to change the page.  Put your email address in the log, as well as
> a good description of what you've done.

The login name of the user who locks and changes the file is included in the
change log of the file.

To see the log, use the rlog command:

rlog index.html

that doesn't necessarily take care of email contact, but....

-Eric.
Eric Berg
eberg@sybase.com -- 510-922-5610
Sr. Web Engineer -- Sybase, Inc.






Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 00:39:41 -0700
From: "David L. Sifry" <david@sifry.com>
To: webdevelopers@balug.org
Subject: New index page

Hi all!

I made some changes to the index page at http://www.balug.org/ - it's not
pretty, but it reflects the info for the October meeting, and the new
info on the web archives of the mailing lists.

It can certainly use some more work - to make changes to the index page,
you'll need to "check out" the page from RCS - use:

co -l index.html

This will give you read-write access to the page in question.  Make your
changes and then check the page back in with:

ci index.html
co index.html

You need the second "co" cammand because otherwise the page disappears into
RCS purgatory.

When you do the "ci", you'll be asked to type in a log of the actions you've
taken to change the page.  Put your email address in the log, as well as
a good description of what you've done.

I'm looking forward to your input!!!

Dave






Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 18:38:38 -0700
From: "David L. Sifry" <david@sifry.com>
To: webdevelopers@balug.org
Subject: webdevelopers@balug.org is now web-enabled!

Sorry for the test messages previously!  I was testing MHonArc, a
mail-to-html gateway.  It seems to be up and running now.  Messages to
webdevelopers@balug.org are now archived at
http://www.balug.org/ml/webdevelopers/  Check it out, and make sure it
works!

I've also set up mail to balug-talk@balug.org (and balug-talk-digest,
btw) to automatically be archived at
http://www.balug.org/ml/balug-talk/  

Give me your comments before I announce it to the balug-talk list.

Now all we need is someone to write this stuff up and put it on our main
web page or pages!  Any volunteers?

Dave
-- 
Dave Sifry                                 http://www.sifry.com
david@sifry.com   (408) 471-0667 (voice)   (408) 471-0666 (fax)
The power of a concept to change people's lives for the better.







Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:47:35 -0700
From: "Eric D. Berg" <eberg@sybase.com>
To: webdevelopers@balug.org
Subject: Re: perl, includes, etc.

On Wed 22-October, Nathan Myers wrote:
> Brandon Harris wrote:
> > This is what i propose to make everyone happy:
> > 	/index.cgi
> > which loads a different index file (and thus a different
> > tree) based on $ENV{'USER_AGENT'} (this is hellishly simple - though the
> > server will have to be set up to accept index.cgi for the / directory.)
> > 
> > 	this way we can pick and choose by netscape/mosaic/lynx/msie/etc -
> > and then, on the netscape/msie pages (with javascript), we can further
> > chop it down and check if javascript is enabled, and if not, we can drop
> > other pages, etc.
> 
> Eric wrote:
> > Or we could have a little fun and use the SSI conditional capabilities 
> > which allow you to do stuff like this example from the mod_include docs:
> > ...
> 
> Is the conditional stuff done by the server itself?  

Yup.

> It seems to me that it would be a mistake to have pages for which you have
> to wait for six forks and four interpreters starting up before you get to
> see anything.

My thoughts, exactly.

> 
> Perl and cpp at page-write time is a Good Thing, but when the user asks 
> to see a page, it should just roll right off the disk (or out of the 
> disk cache) wherever possible.  However, I don't like the idea of trying
> to maintain multiple versions of each page, so if the server will do 
> includes directly by itself, that's better.  If the page can be written 
> so the javascript is just ignored if the browser doesn't understand it,
> that's best of all.
> 
> (What is done in private-project pages is none of my business; they 
> can be as slow, unreadable, and encrusted with geegaws as the maintainer 
> thinks readers will tolerate.  I am only interested in keeping the main 
> page usable.)

Y'know, this ain't rocket science, gents.  Why doesn't somebody whip up some
examples of that technology (or exclusion thereof) so that we can all shoot
nice big holes in it because it's going to break some browser or other.  

We really should get about it here.  This is bordering on the ridiculous,
IMHO.  onMouseovers don't show up for browsers that don't support them.  All
of our image maps will be small and have text alternatives.  Let's get
moving, people.  This is really beginning to bore me.

Any volunteers?

To keep it simple, let's use some comments to identify things that we might
want to change programatically, such as the <BODY> tag, footer info and
navigation elements.  I propose:

<!--BEGIN BODY -->
<BODY>
<!--END BODY -->

Take the leap on the rest of those things that we might want to change.

Let's take our proposal of our requirements and turn that into a list of
files that we need.

I'll propose one more approach, too, which is completely up to Dave.  how
about activating user directories so that we can whap stuff together, post
the URLs to webdevelopers@balug.org and discuss them and/or vote on them.

Dave?  Others?

-Eric.

Eric Berg
eberg@sybase.com -- 510-922-5610
Sr. Web Engineer -- Sybase, Inc.






To: webdevelopers@balug.org
Subject: Re: perl, includes, etc. 
Comments: Hyperbole mail buttons accepted, v04.023.
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 03:45:37 -0700
From: Jim Dennis <jimd@starshine.org>

> Eric wrote:
>> Or we could have a little fun and use the SSI conditional capabilities 
>> which allow you to do stuff like this example from the mod_include docs:
>> ...
> 
> Is the conditional stuff done by the server itself?  It seems to me
> that it would be a mistake to have pages for which you have to wait
> for six forks and four interpreters starting up before you get to see 
> anything.  
> 
> Perl and cpp at page-write time is a Good Thing, but when the user asks 
> to see a page, it should just roll right off the disk (or out of the 
> disk cache) wherever possible.  However, I don't like the idea of trying
> to maintain multiple versions of each page, so if the server will do 
> includes directly by itself, that's better.  If the page can be written 
> so the javascript is just ignored if the browser doesn't understand it,
> that's best of all.

	I agree that a site's index page should just flow straight
	from disk to client.  I'm even tempted on one of my sites
	to create a ram disk or patch the Apache daemon to load the
	initial index page and keep it in RAM.


	RE: JavaScript and "graceful degradation"

	The proper behavior of any browser, according to the 
	standards, is to ignore any markup it doesn't implement.  
	Thus <applet> and <script> tags are already ignored in 
	compliant browsers.

	One of the problems with the way many people implement
	Javascript is that they embed the JS code directly in
	the HTML document inside <!--....--> tags.  This works
	(although some old browsers incorrectly and prematurely
	interpreted the first '>' sign after the opening comment
	delimiter as the end of comment -- when they should have
	continued to seek for the '-->' string (which is the
	proper "end of comment" delimiter in HTML)).  

	I recommended to a few of my contacts at Netscape
	that they modified their proposed specification to 
	add a SRC= attribute to the <SCRIPT ...>...</SCRIPT>
	container.  I thought that had been implemented and
	adopted but I don't see it listed in my cheap little
	reference here.  (I'll have to defer to a real HTML
	wiz on that one -- I just dabble in the stuff).


	RE: the SSI conditional stuff:  

		Yes, that is done by the browser directly.
		The think to watch out for is the <!-#exec...>
		and <!--#include...> tags.  These invoke 
		external programs, and read external files
		respectively.  Any of these will increase
		the server load and page latency a little bit
		-- though generally much less than CGI invocations.


	RE: Maintaining parallel trees of documents:

	I certainly wouldn't want to manage that.  If you started
	with some pretty sophisticated base pages and had a set
	of tools that "compiled" them to various specs. it might 
	not be "too" painful.  However, I don't know of any such
	tools.


	RE: Tools for maintaining HTML documents with normal
	    text editors:

	There's an article in this month's Linux Gazette on using
	the 'm4' macro processor (sort of 'cpp' on steroids) as a
	webauthoring tool.  There was also an article in a recent 
	Linux Journal on 'yodl' (Yet One-other Document Language)
	which can produce TeX (LaTeX), troff, and HTML (among others)
	from a single source document.

	Each of these allows one to use a abbreviated form of 
	personal mark up to create your base documents.  You then 
	run them through a "compilation" process to produce your
	HTML.  It's possible to automate the traversal of this
	"compilation" across mutually depended files using good,
	old-fashioned, 'make'

> 
> (What is done in private-project pages is none of my business; they 
> can be as slow, unreadable, and encrusted with geegaws as the maintainer 
> thinks readers will tolerate.  I am only interested in keeping the main 
> page usable.)

	Let us distinguish between preferences, constraints, and 
	requirements:

		Requirements:

			Must convey BALUG content

			Must be accessible via common web browsers

			Must be in English? (Any bids for translating
			 to other languages?)

		Constraints:

			Must not use .ASP ISAPI FrontPage or other
			Microsoft proprietary *server* technologies
			(which would require NT to be the web server
			OS).
			
			Must not offend our generous host

			Must not cause undue load on our generous host's
			host (which might impact his paying customers etc).

			Must not raise liability (libel, slander, copyright 
			  etc).  (Does .GIF cause us enough of a problem,
			  yet?).

			We have no money to spend on this: all time
			is donated/volunteer.


		Preferences:

			We'd like to be "cool"

			We'd like viewers to be "impressed" with our
			macho command of the technical intricacies of
			web design.

			We'd like to be accessible (Lynx and emacs w3-mode
			compatibility -- at least).  (Web2Mail gate?).

			We'd like to be widely indexed in search engines.

			We'd like it to be maintainable within reasonable
			limits.

	Please add more under each category.  Please ask questions
	under each category.

	I'll be happy to loan anyone involved in this discussion
	my copy of _Exploring_Requirements_ if they'd like ideas
	on how to carry this requirements analysis a little deeper.

	Does anyone here know of a really good book on "facilitation"
	and "consensus building?"  Do we want to try for a small scale
	analog to the methods employed by the IETF (the collaborative
	efforts that result in all those RFC's and protocols that bind
	the whole Internet together)?  The motto of this body is:

		Rough consensus and running code!
		
--
Jim Dennis  (800) 938-4078		consulting@starshine.org
Proprietor, Starshine Technical Services:  http://www.starshine.org
        PGP  1024/2ABF03B1 Jim Dennis <jim@starshine.org>
        Key fingerprint =  2524E3FEF0922A84  A27BDEDB38EBB95A 






To: webdevelopers@balug.org
Subject: Re: standards 
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 02:56:38 -0700
From: Jim Dennis <jimd@starshine.org>

> Or we could have a little fun and use the SSI conditional capabilities which
> allow you to do stuff like this example from the mod_include docs:

	SSI = Server Side Includes -- specially formatted 
	      SGML/HTML psuedo-comments that are parsed by the
	      httpd (server) and replaced dynamically as the page
	      is transferred.  Most of these are similar to C 
	      preprocessor directives like #include.

 
> EXAMPLE: the below example will print "in foo" if the DOCUMENT_URI is
> /foo/file.html, "in bar" if it is /bar/file.html and "in neither" otherwise:
> 
>     <!--#if expr="\"$DOCUMENT_URI\" = \"/foo/file.html\"" -->
>     in foo
>     <!--#elif expr="\"$DOCUMENT_URI\" = \"/bar/file.html\"" -->
>     in bar
>     <!--#else -->
>     in neither
>     <!--#endif -->
> 
> Substitute HTTP_USER_AGENT for DOCUMENT_URI and we're on our way.  This
> alleviates the need to execute additional processes for each request.
> 
> -Eric.

	This is true.  Also the Apache server supports PHP/FI
	("personal home page with forms input" -- better thought 
	of as "parsed ....") and XSSI (extended SSI), an embedded perl,
	and a couple of embedded SQL formats.  These are all available
	as modules.

	However, I still recommend that the very first page
	the user sees be a relatively simple .html with not
	dynamic content.  Having an innocuous frameset is fine
	*if* we include real content in the <noframes>... container.

	My reasons for this are twofold.  First we want the initial
	page to be the fastest.  Any form of dynamic output increases
	the latency (the time delay before the data transfer can 
	commence).  The other reason is for support and troubleshooting.
	There's simply less to go wrong with that initial page.  If 
	it shows up we have an anchor from which we can do *all* other
	tests and troubleshooting.  Without it we have to fuss.

	
	
> On Tue 21-October, Brandon Harris wrote:
>>>> Sure, no problem.  Can it be done with a single image file and 
>>>> multiple IMG tags offset into the single image, to minimize server
>>>> transactions?  Do you understand what I mean?

	I understand that you'd prefer one IMG to several (because
	one larger file is "cheaper" in bandwidth and other resources
	than several small ones).

	I don't know what you mean by "multiple IMG tags offset"
	(if you don't mean a normal ISMAP .map file).

>>> Sorry, I'm not quite sure what you mean.  But minimizing calls to the 
>>> server is one of the very few justifications, IMO,  for frames - so 
>>> that you only load those image files once.  But I won't push for them.

>> I will, you betcha.

	You will push for frames?  It sounds like you plan to 
	push for lots of stuff.  I reiterate my initial suggestion:

		Do whatever you want on your own pages.
		Let the rest of us reach a consensus that maximizes
		accessibility for all and leads to a diverse set of
		alternative views.

	I personally see Linux as being the chief weapon in the 
	struggle for OS diversity.  More than any other effort it
	has said:

		"We are not satisfied with what the 'vendor' 
		ships.  We choose our own tools."

	(This is as true of the Alpha, PPC, 68K, and other ports as
	it is of the PC).

>> 	This is what i propose to make everyone happy:
>> 
>> 	/index.cgi
>> 		which loads a different index file (and thus a different
>> tree) based on $ENV{'USER_AGENT'} (this is hellishly simple - though the
>> server will have to be set up to accept index.cgi for the / directory.)

	This is also hellishly slow when using perl for the CGI.
	A small C program or -- as Eric as suggested an SSI -- will 
	produce much less load and latency.  (perl takes a substantial
	time to load).
	
>> 	this way we can pick and choose by netscape/mosaic/lynx/msie/etc -
>> and then, on the netscape/msie pages (with javascript), we can further
>> chop it down and check if javascript is enabled, and if not, we can drop
>> other pages, etc.

	It's clear that you've never tried to maintain a few hundred
	pages in this fashion.  The multipliers in development and 
	testing start to really get unwieldy very quickly.

	Let's get to content for a little diversion:

		What/who are we?
			The Bay Area Linux User's Group

		What is the purpose of the site?
			To Inform Members and Potential Members
			of our events, projects, and other items
			of public interest

		Who do we expect to find us?
			People who are interested in Linux, Unix
			PC's, other microcomputers, other OS' other
			software, other computer related stuff
			(roughly in order of specificity).

		What do we want to say to them?
			Join us!

	(That's a start.  Let's refine it):

		Who we are (more detail):
			List of members pages about Linux and/or about BALUG
			List of "officers" and "official contacts"

			Group mission statement
				(Promote the use and development of Linux?)

			Charter?  Bylaws?  Dues?

			Meetings:
			    Next:
				When
				Where (include link to map query!)
				Notes: (prices, foods, aggenda)
			    Future: (list)
			    Past: (links to member comments?  "secretary's
				   minutes"?)
				
		Site Purpose:
			Introduce our organization
			Announce our meetings
			Help members find each other and 
			  one another's "useful links"
			Support/Promote other LUG's, Linux friendly
			  companies, Linux projects, reference sites,
			  etc.

		Audience:
			How did they find us?
			    Web Searches:
				(probably want to have extensive
				 promotion in the Yahoo!, Lycos,
				 etc search engines, a listing in the 
				 SSC (Linux Journal) database of LUG's
				 join or form a "LUG Web Ring")

			     Newpapers:
				SJ Merc, Comp Currents, Microtimes,
				SF Examiner, SF Weekly -- all have 
				some sort of community service 
				announcements.

			    Radio/TV:
				Quit Laughing!  C|Net and others
				need little "filler" stories and clips
				for their shows.  I have a friend who 
				is the "evangelist" for Cybermedia.  He
				gets booked for radio shows and TV spots
				all over the country.  Another tells me
				she used to set these up as an admin.
				asst. for another place.  I'll have her
				call around and try to set me up for a
				a few of these.
				
		What we say to potential members:
		   Join us!		
			Why?
			    Links to other members (with
			    list of specialties and interests)

			    Mutual Tech support (links to 
			    "best" TS sites)

			    Professional Contacts:  Place to 
			    find Linux/Unix specialists (invite 
			    headhunters to meet jobhunters).

			    Tutorial Sessions: (content of some
			    meetings).

			    Promotional Sessions: (invitation to
			    Vendors of Linux software, services, and
			    hardware/peripherals)

			    	(This last item gets us the next:)

			    Door Prizes.

			    Food and Conversation.

			    .... and, maybe, the occasional appearance
			    of our "honorary founder" Linus!

	Please fill this in a bit.  When we have a clear idea of *what*
	we want to say -- then we can go back to bickering over *how*
	we want to say it.

	(I should probably go back through this and restate each item
	as a question.  However I don't have the time for that at the 
	moment).

--
Jim Dennis  (800) 938-4078		consulting@starshine.org
Proprietor, Starshine Technical Services:  http://www.starshine.org
        PGP  1024/2ABF03B1 Jim Dennis <jim@starshine.org>
        Key fingerprint =  2524E3FEF0922A84  A27BDEDB38EBB95A 



From: "Cydny Fire Eisner" <cbeisner@sirius.com>
To: webdevelopers@balug.org
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:25:22 +0000
Subject: webpage org

Jim,
I translated what you started (with respect to content) to a list of html 
pages - so we can start getting organized. 

I also suggest that we have separate dirs & image subdirs for each
of the main sections.  These sections would be the main nav
elements. I've indicated these main sections by putting their names
in all caps & printing a short line above the section name.

Additionally, regarding the makeup of the audience:  could you add 
the distinction of experienced & novice Linux users.

This isn't the best way to present this info, but its a start.

MAIN   (index.html) 
Location:  BALUG root dir
Content:  1-2 sentence general description of BALUG
Short paragraph about membership benefits

Links:
  Meeting.html
  Org.html
  Resources.html
  New.html




______________
ORGANIZATION (org.html) 
Location:  Org subdir
Create Org Navigation element
Content:  General overview of BALUG goals, membership
Links:   

(members.html)
Location:  Org subdir
Link from org.html
Content:  List of members pages about Linux and/or about BALUG 

(officers.html)
Location:  Org subdir
Link from org.html
Content: 	List of "officers" and "official contacts"

(mission.html) 
Location:  Org subdir
Link from org.html
Content:  Group mission statement
>	(Promote the use and development of Linux?)


(charter.html)
Location:  Org subdir
Link from org.html
Content:	Charter?  Bylaws?  Dues?



____________
MEETING (meeting.html) 
Create nav element
Location:  meeting subdir 
Content:
Current Where, Date, Time, RSVP, Amount, speaker, sponsors, (this is for you Jim) doorprizes

Links:  

(map.html)
Location:  Meeting subdir 
Link from meeting.html
Content: Map to Four Seasons


(future.html)
Location:  Meeting subdir 
Link from meeting.html
Content: list of scheduled future speakers



(past.html)
Location:  Meeting subdir 
Link from meeting.html
Content:  past meetings info page (separate page & link for each 
meeting)

Link TO:  

    (Xnotes.html)
     Location:  Meeting subdir 
     Link from meeting.html
     Content:   meeting X Secty's notes page

     (Xcomments.html)
     Location:  Meeting subdir 
     Link from meeting.html
     Content:   meeting X member's comments page



____________
RESOURCES (resource.html) 
Create nav element
Location:  Resource subdir 
Content:  Short intro & list of links pages

Links:  

(links.html)
Location:  Resources subdir 
Link from resource.html
Content:  Linux related links


(members.html)
Location:  Resources subdir 
Link from resource.html
Content:  Members' Linux related links


(promo.html)
Location:  Resources subdir 
Link from resource.html
Content:  Linux related Promo links


(consultants.html)
Location:  Resources subdir 
Link from resource.html
Content:  members biz links


(jobs.html)
Location:  Resources subdir 
Link from resource.html
Content:  Jobs offered links


(tutor.html)
Location:  Resources subdir 
Link from resource.html
Content: Tutorial Sessions: (content of some meetings).




______________
WHAT'S NEW (new.html) 
Location:  BALUG root dir
Create Org Navigation element
Content:  Linux- related (members & sponsors?) news or announcements
Links:   




Regards,
Cydny

Cydny Fire Eisner                       cbeisner@sirius.com                
  
Database & Web Development
Business Process Automation
Project Management
Film Production







From: "Cydny Fire Eisner" <cbeisner@sirius.com>
To: webdevelopers@balug.org
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:35:41 +0000
Subject: Re: webpage org

> (past.html)
> Location:  Meeting subdir 
> Link from meeting.html
> Content:  past meetings info page (separate page & link for each 
> meeting)
> 
> Link TO:  
> 
>     (Xnotes.html)
>      Location:  Meeting subdir 
>      Link from meeting.html
>      Content:   meeting X Secty's notes page
> 
>      (Xcomments.html)
>      Location:  Meeting subdir 
>      Link from meeting.html
>      Content:   meeting X member's comments page


OOPS!  I made a mistake in the X*.html files above.  They would be 
linked from past.html.


Cydny

Cydny
Cydny Fire Eisner                       cbeisner@sirius.com                
  
Database & Web Development
Business Process Automation
Project Management
Film Production






From: "Cydny Fire Eisner" <cbeisner@sirius.com>
To: webdevelopers@balug.org
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 14:34:35 +0000
Subject: Re: Website status

> Looks great, Cydny!  Nice and clean design.  Loads fast.
> 
> My only suggestion is that we keep to a single background/VLINK/LINK
> color scheme... Perhaps it was just an artifact in your code.

These pages are  not close to being ready to go live!

The pages are just to start organizing  the site structure &
navigation setup - not design or content ( so I can start to feel 
like there's some progress).  The design & layout still
needs to be thought out & played with.

I'm just experimenting right now & plan on spending more 
time on design & layout.  

I think that once these pages get a little further along, we might 
want to start applying Jim's list of requirments, Constraints etc to 
see if they're kosher.

Currently, my plan of action is to produce some basic pages - so
that we can get something out there, &  then spend sometime playing
with a more interesting layout & design.

I'd like to suggest that when we move pages live, that 
we first rename the old file, that we are replacing,  to ufn.html.old.  
This has saved me from disaster on a couple of occasions.

On another note, regarding search engines -
The major search engines keep changing the methods they use to index 
sites.  Some look at the meta tags, some at the text in the body of 
the page, while others look at the text between the <H1></H1> tags.  
Its something to keep in mind when we develope content for these 
pages - so that we incorporate key words in those areas.


> Cydny, you have an account on balug.org - your user name is
> cbeisner. Pop the code into /home/cbeisner/public_html/, make that
> directory world executable, and you can then access the pages at
> <http://www.balug.org/~cbeisner/> if you like.

I know I have the account on balug.org.
I'm afraid that I'm still not setup for telecommuting on the Linux
side of my machine - tho I'm close (I can login to my ISP, but after
login I get garbage on the screen).  I can access my account on
Balug.org from my NT side, but I won't be able to use ssh, which you
requested, until I get Telecom on Linux setup.

Rick came up with an interim solution for me, which I'll try this afternoon. 
 I just wanted to get something up today so I loaded everything onto 
my site.

Regards,
Cydny



Cydny Fire Eisner                       cbeisner@sirius.com                
  
Database & Web Development
Business Process Automation
Project Management
Film Production


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Offered to help with Web maintenance:
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   bharris@gaijin.com                         jormungandr@sfnet.com
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-- Eric D. Berg <eberg@sybase.com>
Eric Berg
Sr. Web Engineer, Sybase, Inc.
mailto: eberg at sybase.com
http://support.sybase.com
Emeryville, California

-- Cydny Fire Eisner <cbeisner@sirius.com>
Cydny Fire Eisner
cbeisner@sirius.com
Database & Web Development
Business Process Automation
Project Management
Film Production

-- Nathan Myers <ncm@cantrip.org>
http://www.cantrip.org