From kor2@midway.uchicago.edu Tue Jul 11 19:45:57 2000 -0500 Status: R X-Status: A X-Keywords: Return-Path: Received: from midway.uchicago.edu (midway.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.12]) by plaisance.uchicago.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA25553 for ; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 19:45:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: from hotmail.com ([216.32.181.180]) by midway.uchicago.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with SMTP id e6C0hH305156 for ; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 19:43:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 87740 invoked by uid 0); 12 Jul 2000 00:42:48 -0000 Message-ID: <20000712004248.87739.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 24.201.168.63 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 17:42:48 PDT X-Originating-IP: [24.201.168.63] From: "Réjean Charpentier" To: kor2@midway.uchicago.edu Subject: WOT FAQ - Taim being Demandred Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 20:42:48 EDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed hi there! I was reading the Wheel Of Time FAQ section discussing about whether or not Taim is really Demandred. I thought that you had surely included every possible clues, but I actually remember having found one not listed there. Here it is: At some point in the series (right after MT killed the Gray Man?), MT said something and listed a number of male Forsaken. I remember having noticed that those happened to be every male Forsaken that we knew alive, and that Demandred would know alive. But how the hell could Taim know that some such as Asmodean wasn't anymore? Anyway, it strucked me at the time, but I would have to find the exact quote... Rejean Charpentier graceful_wildcat@hotmail.com ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From argonomic@earthlink.net Thu Oct 5 22:47:39 CDT 2000 Article: 446555 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail From: "Avatar" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Taim and the Gray Man Lines: 82 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 07:04:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.246.249.162 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 970729498 206.246.249.162 (Thu, 05 Oct 2000 00:04:58 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 00:04:58 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:446555 Glancing at deja, this discussion has come up, but I think I may have something new to add to it: In Chapter 28: Letters of Lord of Chaos, a Gray Man attacks Rand in his bedchambers. Taim gates in and spears the assassin just as Rand captures him with air. I would theorize that Taim didn't know about the Gray Man, and he wasn't there to talk with Rand. To begin, I've always thought his excuse for dropping in on Rand via his balcony was a little lame: "Somebody who learns too fast?" Rand broke in, and Taim flashed that half-smile again. "No, not one of the Forsaken in disguise, not unless he's managed to disguise himself as a boy not past twenty. His name is Jahar Narishma, and he has the spark, though it has not come out yet. Men usually show later than women. You should return to the school, you would be surprised by the changes." Taim bought himself some time to think when he killed the Gray Man, time to think up an excuse for being there. He tells Rand he's found a strong channeler. This is the big news? He tries to change the subject to the school, and then when Rand doesn't say anything, he tries to change the subject to the gray man. "Taim grimaced, but he was not out of countenance, only irritated. "Believe me, I wish he was still alive as much as you do. I saw him and acted without thinking; the last thing I want is to see you dead. You seized him the moment I channeled, but it was too late to stop." Personally I'm rather surprised Rand didn't fire off something nasty in Taim's direction the moment he felt a gateway opening in an unexpected place at an unexpected time. Rand's preoccupation with the Gray Man may have saved Taim. "...That man had to come from Sammael." "Perhaps," Taim said shortly, glancing at the Gray Man." "I would give a great deal to be sure." That had the simple ring of truth. I used to believe that Taim had sent the gray man, then showed up to kill it, to gain some trust with Rand. Once you think about it though, this is rather hard to believe. Its still very early morning. Likely Taim gates to Rand's room expecting him to still be in Cairhien (if he pays any attention to whether or not Rand is in Caemlyn). Taim would have to have either himself or one of his "special" Asha'man spying on Rand constantly, somehow without being detected, for him to know that Rand had just arrived. It's more likely that Taim didn't expect Rand at all. Besides, how could he possibly have timed things so perfect intentionally? To truly send a Gray Man after Rand would go against the DO's orders, and had he arrived too late he'd have risked Rand dying. Too soon and Rand might have sent him away before the Gray Man showed up. I think Taim is simply doing a little spying in the master's quarters while the master is away. That or planting/checking on inverted weaves of some purpose (I tend to believe Taim is Demandred, who would have the reason and capacity for such a thing). Also, the way it's written (with the "simple ring of truth"), implies it really is the truth. The one additional thing that brings this all together for me is this: "For a moment Taim's dark eyes glittered, then he bowed his head slightly. Without a word he seized saidin and opened a gateway right there." (Lord of Chaos, Page 568, paperback). How else can you explain Taim knowing Rand's bedchamber so well that he can Travel right out of it? Some possible ways: To Travel from it, he only needs to know the palace in general (like the Throne Room, where he may have spent enough time to Travel), rather than specific rooms. I'm not finished with my reread, but I seem to remember the Asha'man at the end of this book having to study a specific area at Dumai Wells before they could jet off. OR He did Path of Daggers style "quickie Travelling", since it's just a short distance. Perhaps, again I haven't reached PoD yet in my reread, and I don't remember exactly how that worked (if it was based on sight, then its out). From argonomic@earthlink.net Thu Oct 5 22:47:49 CDT 2000 Article: 446672 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net.MISMATCH!news.mindspring.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail From: "Avatar" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan References: Subject: Re: Taim and the Gray Man Lines: 42 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 16:24:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.96.179.43 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 970763050 209.96.179.43 (Thu, 05 Oct 2000 09:24:10 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 09:24:10 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:446672 Avatar wrote in message news:uKVC5.1481$cV2.54254@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net... > Glancing at deja, this discussion has come up, but I think I may have > something new to add to it: > > In Chapter 28: Letters of Lord of Chaos, a Gray Man attacks Rand in his > bedchambers. Taim gates in and spears the assassin just as Rand captures him > with air. I would theorize that Taim didn't know about the Gray Man, and he > wasn't there to talk with Rand. Some other things I've noticed in rereading the chapter: It is indeed early in the morning: "It had been a most eventful morning, especially considering the sky was still gray." Also, they seem to be in the room between Rand's bedroom and the throne room: "Saidin made a globe of light, Fire and Air, to illumine the way out of the throne room." "Without saidin in him, he doubted he could have heard the Maidens' soft footfalls, but before thy crossed the anteroom Aviendha came stalking out of the still dark bedchamber with her hair in wild disarray and her belt knife in hand." So they're in the Anteroom. I still think, given the POVs we get of Rand, that he doesn't meet with Taim very often. In fact the only time we've actually seen Taim in the palace prior to this was when he actualled showed up in the throne room the first time. Other than that, we've seen Taim once on the farm. We know that Rand hasn't been back to the farm since, but we don't really have any reason to believe Rand has met with Taim at all since, let alone in his private rooms. From Fri Oct 6 10:53:31 CDT 2000 Article: 446975 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!xfer.netnews.com.MISMATCH!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail From: (Stew) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: Why I think Taim is just Taim Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 15:03:31 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 91 Message-ID: <39dde0cd.894403@nntp.ix.netcom.com> References: <20001006042627.27056.00001170@ng-cg1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cd.b8.83.eb X-Server-Date: 6 Oct 2000 15:02:04 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:446975 On 06 Oct 2000 08:26:27 GMT, silverspeed686@aol.com (SilverSpeed686) wrote: Damn man, this is longer than a Graendeldunnit! I've edited a bit. > Before I begin, >though, there is something that we all must keep in mind; it is up to the >Taim=Demandred folks to prove their case conclusively and while they have a lot >of evidence, they need a smoking gun. Without proof beyond a reasonable doubt, >we must assume Taim is merely Taim. You're wong. Here's why: It is the authors intention that we take Taim for Demandred. That shifts the burdenof proof to your side. snip-Taim would only serve Rand under orders form the DO > Furthermore, until Rand proclaimed his >amnesty, there was no benefit to being Taim; Of course there was. He was setting himself up as The Dragon Reborn. This was a good plan until the Pattern bumped him. Something I doubt even a Forsaken could have predicted. snip > The Taim=Demandred theory seems to require Taim to >have been taken by Darkfriends, drained of information about himself, and then >killed. Only the bad one does. The good one says Demandred was Taim from the very beginning. He started out beat Rand to the title of Dragon Reborn, when the Pattern tossed him off his High Horse he was given a new st of orders. This isn't that tough. snip -long explanation rendered moot by the above. snip-Taim would chafe at being second in command snip -Taim hates Aes Sedai > >4) On two occassions, we see what is very likely Taim's true emotions. The >first is when Rand is about to break the seal that he delivered to Rand. While >I do not see any problem with Demandred giving a seal to Rand, I do think that >Taim's reaction is evidence against him being Demandred. LoC describes Taim's >reaction to Rand preparing to smash the seal as, "If Rand had thought Taim >unflappable, he had proof to the contrary now. Shock painted the man's face." >If Taim were Demandred, I doubt he would have minded if Rand broke the seal. >It'll break eventually on its own, but if Rand wants to smash it and release >the Dark One early, then so much the better. Unless the DO had given orders that certain events must take place before the he enters the world. Events like turning Rand to the Shadow. Or, if Demandred knows what Fel knows, that tearing down is the start of building up. >'You must hold on,' Taim said softly. 'If sanity can be held, you must. The >price is too high, if you fail.'" Hauntingly familiar with Ishamael's comments in the prologue. > >I think this is the scene where we get the closest look on Taim's soul. The >concern that he showed there and the words that he used are not the words of >one who despises Rand as Demandred does. Yeah. They are. If Demandred has specific orders for how to deliver Rand to the Shadow, anything, including Rand's early death and/or insanity, would place him (Damandred) in great peril. Recall the words of Moridin the Wanderer (I know, you don't buy that either) in Shadar Logath: " Agreat many plans will have to be relaid if you let yourself be killed now." snip-Taim's men attack Rand in PoD snip-Dumai's Wells > >Well, that is much longer than I had thought it would be. But those are the >main reasons that I believe Taim is just plain Taim. Any theory that takes that long to explain is probably wrong. Stew. slemmon(ishydunnit)@ix.netcom.com From kor2@midway.uchicago.edu Wed Jul 12 19:59:41 2000 -0500 Status: R X-Status: X-Keywords: Return-Path: Received: from midway.uchicago.edu (midway.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.12]) by plaisance.uchicago.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA08447 for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 19:59:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f172.hotmail.com [216.32.181.172]) by midway.uchicago.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with SMTP id e6D0xfA17822 for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 19:59:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 76588 invoked by uid 0); 13 Jul 2000 00:59:35 -0000 Message-ID: <20000713005935.76587.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 24.201.168.63 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 17:59:35 PDT X-Originating-IP: [24.201.168.63] From: "Réjean Charpentier" To: kor2@midway.uchicago.edu Subject: Re: WOT FAQ - Taim being Demandred Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 20:59:35 EDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed -- If this does happen like you remember, then you are right, that is a good clue. If you figure out where in the books this is, please let me know. -pam -- I'm pretty sure i've found it, look somewhere on this page or on the next : [LOC: 42,The Black Tower, 545]. Please note that I don't have the actual book with me, I've only found a quotation on your FAQ that i'm sure is in the same scene: 'Rand says to Taim: "If I feel a man channel in Caemlyn...and don't think you can stay far enough from the Palace that I won't feel it and be safe."' Then, if I remember correctly, Taim replies that he couldn't be responsible if Sammael or Demandred decided to come channeling in Caemlyn. (I can't be sure whether he also states asmo or not). The only male forsaken alive at the time (orignal forsaken at least). Now the choices are: 1) Taim knows from Rand or somebody else that Ishy, Aginor and Balthamel are dead for sure, and for asmo i have no clue (i'm not actually sure if he names him too) 2) Demandred names the the male forsaken he knows alive without much thinking about it. 3) It's only a coincidence that he names those ones still alive. (or RJ didn't think about that) anyway, I can be wrong, it's been some time since I last read LOC and I don't have the book to make sure, but I remember clearly that it made sense with the idea of Taim being Demandred when I read that part. Please let me know if it's concluding Réjean Charpentier ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From tsignus@aol.com Fri Nov 10 15:33:33 CST 2000 Article: 453488 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: tsignus@aol.com (TSignus) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: Old Answers and New Questions (Spoilers) Lines: 62 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 03 Nov 2000 11:27:35 GMT References: <8tu4oi$i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20001103062735.10172.00000696@ng-ch1.aol.com> Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:453488 SPOILERS Below >> >Demandred: He is close to Rand but >> >has lost him. At this point he >> >seems to be Taim more than anything. >> > >> >> Except for that Flinn quote at the end that pretty much kills any >reasonable >> belief in Taimendred. >> >I've been thinking about that, I haven't reached the end >yet but there is a part where Rand disguises himself >and inverts the weaves, could Flinn have done this? >That might be why Dem. doesn't recognise him. Well, if Flinn disguises himself as an old man, I guess this could work... :P More than Demandred not recognizing Flinn (Which I think in itself is impossible if he were Taim), he is obviously shocked that this "tottering old man" could be an Asha'man at all. We know Taim has many old men as Asha'man, so I don't see why this would surprise him. Also, Taim knows that Flinn, Narishma, and Hopwil are Rand's three main Asha'man, that's why he posts their names to kill him. Would he really have been that surprised to find Rand's Asha'man as part of the group of channelers defending Rand during the Taint's cleansing? Remember, Flinn was the First of the ASha'man that Taim trained. I can't see him not recognizing him... -TS From quixotic78@hotmail.com Fri Nov 10 17:32:53 CST 2000 Article: 455107 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!europa.netcrusader.net!207.114.4.11!nntp.abs.net!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!dca1-feed3.news.digex.net!intermedia!cyclone.columbus.rr.com!news.rr.com!cyclone-midwest.rr.com!typhoon.columbus.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail From: "Quixotic" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Try this one on for size... (SPOILERS) Lines: 78 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 16:25:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.24.132.80 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.columbus.rr.com 973700701 65.24.132.80 (Wed, 08 Nov 2000 11:25:01 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 11:25:01 EST Organization: Road Runner Columbus Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:455107 Little pet theory concerning WH.... Envision this scenario: 1. Robert Jordan writes LoC with Taim=Demandred. He includes some minor details (such as not-smiling), thinking that very few people will pick up on it, but later people can refer back to it. 2. Very few people do originally pick up on it, but because of groups like this, the news spreads like wildbalefire, gets put into the FAQ, and soon everyone thinks that Taim=Demandred. As a matter of fact, most people are POSITIVE of Taimandred. 3. Jordan, his oh-so-pretty surprise ruined, still wants Taim to be Demandred. So he throws that little scene into WH, with the M'Hael ordering Rand's death, and then Demandred ordering the same. Now, everyone is POSITIVE that Taim is NOT Demandred. Jordan has the last laugh. Problems: Jordan's got to realize that we're suspicious little bastards. So, not EVERYONE is positive that Taim isn't Demandred. Plus, there is still plenty of room for reasons as to why Taimandred is telling the same traitor the same order twice: 1. Taim doesn't want his Forsaken status to be revealed through torture [Do Ash'aman take anything akin the the BA's evil oaths? If not, it's possible that a Forsaken could be betrayed by some sort of torture, Mind-Delving, or Compulsion]. 2. I know if I were Forsaken, I would want to keep my damn mouth shut in the middle of about the only place where I might be in danger... the middle of hundreds of other channelers. Think about it: you tell one DF you're Forsaken, he enthusiastically starts recruiting, he recruits the wrong dude, your cover is blown, and you have 300 Light-Friendly Asha'man trying to blow your head apart. Not good. 3. Maybe Taimandred thinks his Rand-killing lackeys are actually in the employ of another Chosen, and he doesn't want his cover blown there. So, I'm not convinced that Taim and Demandred are different. After all, why was Taim so visibly pissed that Dash'angar tried to kill Rand? *HOLD THE HORSES* I just went to check something in WH, and I realized that on p.644, Demandred doesn't realize that the "tottering old man" (Flinn) is Asha'man. And yet Taim has Flinn on the Traitor's Tree. Well, shut my mouth--Taim ain't Demandred after all. Still leaves me wondering why Taim is so pissed that Dash'angar tried to kill Rand. My only thought is that Taim is in the EMPLOY of a Forsaken (still could be Demandred), and Taim knows that Demandred wants the glory of killing Rand (p. 645). This could be independent of Taim knowing that Dashiva is a Forsaken. Beats me. Oh, I think Mat's old man has to be Jain Farstrider. That was the first thing that popped into my head when he appeared, and I didn't even remember Jain's real last name. Any reason Mat would have some sort of recognition feeling? From kor2@midway.uchicago.edu Fri Nov 10 19:34:31 CST 2000 Article: 456354 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!not-for-mail Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: Taim - Spoilers References: <973783819.519091@sj-nntpcache-3> Organization: *sniff* X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: kor2@midway.uchicago.edu (P. Korda) Lines: 36 Message-ID: <3%0P5.250$z3.3068@uchinews> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 973904959 128.135.12.7 (Fri, 10 Nov 2000 19:09:19 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 19:09:19 CST Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 01:09:19 GMT Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:456354 In article <973783819.519091@sj-nntpcache-3>, Brian T. Lindstrom wrote: >Spoiler space > > > > > > > > > > > > >Do we have conclusive proof from WH that Taim is a darkfriend. We know that >he ordered the attack on Rand in Cairhen, which would seem to indicate so, >is there anything else though? Yes. In the Kisman section, where he thinks about the succession of people who ordered him to kill Rand. First, Taim, who first ordered the attack on Cairhien, and then again ordered him and his buddies to kill Rand in Far Madding. Then, Demandred, who expresses similar sentiments to Taim (almost as mad that the Fearsome Fivesome were discovered, as that they failed). The last sentance of that paragraph is, "[Discovered] By anyone, even the M'Hael, as if he did not know of Taim's order." So, Kisman _expects_ Demandred to know of Taim's order. This only makes sense if Kisman knows that Taim is a DF. -pam From jsn@concentric.net Sat Nov 11 00:55:05 CST 2000 Article: 456498 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!logbridge.uoregon.edu!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!ts028d45.chi-il.concentric.NET!not-for-mail From: jsn@concentric.net (John S. Novak, III) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: WH: Long Review (spoilers) Date: 11 Nov 2000 06:32:57 GMT Organization: Cynics Central Lines: 166 Message-ID: References: Reply-To: jsn@concentric.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ts028d45.chi-il.concentric.net (206.173.190.153) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 973924377 2124053 206.173.190.153 (16 [39511]) X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.3 UNIX) Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:456498 On Wed, 08 Nov 2000 22:09:51 -0800, Trent Goulding wrote: The page break, preceding the rambling spoilers: >And can I just add, the evil bastard deep down in my soul kept >muttering "for god's sake, man, just poke Berelain, would you? >She's sure a helluva lot more interesting and attractive than the >screaming headcase you're married to..." >Okay, I know we can't go around doing that sort of thing, but still. "But in the end," mused Verin, "Will he choose the shrew or the mink?" Perrin gave a start, and scrubbed his shaggy hair with the back of his hand to cover. No one else could possibly have overheard Verin from this distance, and he didn't want to look suspicious. But Min had once told him that images of a shrew and a mink swirled and fought over his head. Come to think of it, Egwene mentioned dreams about a mink sitting on one shoulder, and a shrew digging claws into the other. He didn't know what she meant. And, hey, why was it that every time he saw Hopper in the Wolf Dream, he was feasting on the steaming entrails of a freshly disemboweled mink or shrew? Wolves didn't eat those... did they? What did it all mean? Ah, well, nothing to do about it, and no wy to figure out such cryptic visions. Oh, no, there was Berelain sashaying toward him in those four inch fuck-me pumps. 'Damn, what I wouldn't give for just one--' But no, he could smell Faile's scent already and the sound of her incessant bitching and nagging couldn't be far behind. >I know it's been said a thousand times by a thousand different >people, but sweet heaven how I would like to see at least half the >main characters associated with the Perrin plot die messy and >painful deaths, just because they're tedious and annoying (Sevanna, >Masema, Faile head the list. Throw in Maighdin and those Cha Faile >putzes too, just for chuckles). Tac nuke the lot of 'em. >>Then there was Elayne's plot thread. >I actually liked Elayne more than I usually do, this go-round. I didn't mind her nearly as much. She redeemed herself by showing some of the reasoning behind her little temper tantrums and attitude-fests from previous books. But again, getting word to Rand about some of this stuff on the sly just should not have been that difficult. I suppose I should blame Jordan for being unclear more than I should blame the fictional character. At least it won't become the Major Issue between the two of them for the next three books. That would have been intolerable. >Yeah, it's goofy in terms of internal narrative logic. My >complaint, though, is almost more with a technical point. I find it >kind of annoying how description of a given character's proceeding >in a course that the omniscient reader knows is completely, 180 >degrees wrong is beaten on so ham-handedly. Rand's fawning about >his secret "friends" in the Tower, for example, or here, with Elayne >getting all gooey the courageous guardsman who saved her life. It's >just laid on way too thick. It is, quite literally, a theme of the books. I'm much more annoyed by the idiocy of, say, Morgase. >>The third major plot thread was Mat's Yay. Mat's back. Mat is cool. >Mat is serious wish fulfillment, at least from where I sit. He's >just fun to read about, really. Yeah. Not much happened, but those sections were well written, and liberally stocked with interesting information about the Seanchan, so I was happy. >>I hesitate to call this plot thread resolved, but it certainly looks >>like a major piece of plot was resolved-- Mat has, quite literally, >>bound the Daughter of the Nine Moons to him. And it looks like >>they're ready to roll out of Altara, too. Finally. Hopefully that >>won't get stretched out through the next book. >I actually liked Tuon. She's still something of a cipher, of >course, but I had good vibes from her--putting aside that whole >god-awful evil attitude of damane-as-pets that they're all steeped >in, that is. She's got definite potential. I think my final decision will rest on just how hide-bound into her own culture she is. One of the things that really, really, REALLY annoyed me about Aviendha was her stubborn insistence that the Aiel way was the Only way, and everyone else was just plain stupid. It annoys me in minor characters, too (the whole crew of Aiel annoy me) but minor characters get less screen time. If Tuon turns out to be the same way, for instance, resisting the notion that she can channel for the next three books, I may hate her. I don't think she's going to be like that, though. >And she gets big bonus points for being a major female character who >doesn't have the author fawning over her "impressive bosom;" quite >the opposite, in fact. Yay! Heh. >>And then there was the final chapter, dealing with the Taint. >It was well done. Rand had an idea what he wanted to do, and he >finally got a really hard-ass field general on board, and she >brought her motley-but-bad-ass posse along to run interference and >watch his back. Pretty cool. Very cool. The sort of thing we _should_ be seeing. Cooperation. Delegation. A little trust. With dramatically good results. >>o What the hell is up with that strange old man that Mat grabbed up? >>Obviously this is the old guy from aCoS, and possibly Graendal's >>forlorn old man, but... what's the deal? >I haven't been paying attention...I assume the Jaim Farstrider >theory has been definitively shot down already? He's obviously very >well traveled, and knows a lot of stuff. No it has not, and I'm as embarassed about that as you are about Anath. It sounded vaguely familiar, and I just didn't catch it. But, is he a secret Darkfriend? Is he Graendal's creature? Who would recognize him? Lan, maybe? I guess a bunch of Aes Sedai are old enough, but my leading guesses for Aes Sedai recognizing him would be Verin or Cadsuane. >>o Wouldn't you just _love_ to have seen the look on Taim's face when >>he felt all that Saidin being chanelled off to the northwest of the >>Black Tower? I'm mildly surprised that a host of Asha'man didn't >>freak out and investigate as soon as it happened. >That is pretty wierd. It's hard to imagine an eruption of saidin >that large and lengthy and the entire Black Tower just sitting there >and doing nothing to find out what the freakin' hell is going on. Well, Taim may have had distinct orders against meddling with it. I'm pretty sure he's a Darkfriend, and his loyalty in that situation might be considered very suspect. No doubt a lot of the Asha'man Darkfriends (no matter how many of them there are) were recruited by promising them immunity from the Taint. Speaking of which: DUH. I am a moron. You want to know why Taim hasn't been driven nuts by the Taint? Not because he is a Forsaken. I say, because he is a Darkfriend. He has immunity from the Taint, given by the Dark One. Which Rand never saw, because he never met with Taim in any of the locations that could be seen, like the Skimming Plane. Excuse me while I beat my head against the monitor. - John S. Novak, III jsn@concentric.net The Humblest Man on the Net From dgroves@bnin.net Sun Nov 12 15:43:21 CST 2000 Article: 455652 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!newsfeed.stanford.edu!headwall.stanford.edu!news-in.nibble.net!feed.newsfeeds.com!newsfeeds.com!feeder.via.net!enews.sgi.com!news.good.net!news.goodnet.com!not-for-mail From: "Dave Groves" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: (SPOILERS) Demandred/Taim Lines: 32 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 12:53:24 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.160.236.52 X-Complaints-To: abuse@winstar.net X-Trace: news.goodnet.com 973792286 206.160.236.52 (Thu, 09 Nov 2000 10:51:26 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 10:51:26 MST Organization: WinStar GoodNet, Inc. Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:455652 I was reading this and came across something possibly important. Now, I realize that the Taim & Demandred theory is pretty much out, but I have a great feeling/theory that Taim is being controlled by Demandred. Here is why: Spoiler Space: Page, 313 (Wonderful News): "Al'Thor has been seen in five cities, including that cursed place in the Waste, and a dozen towns since those blind fools--thos idiots!--failed in Cairhien." Now, this shows that Taim (who ordered those Asha'man to kill Rand) is either following Demandred or still is Demandred and that Jordan is trying to fool us by having him not recognize Flinn. How else would Demandred know what happened in Cairhien? Well, besides having thousands of Darkfriend spies, but that's irrelevant. Dave From james@raveller.com Sun Nov 12 15:44:05 CST 2000 Article: 455733 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!logbridge.uoregon.edu!netnews.com!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail From: James Huckaby Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: (SPOILERS) Demandred/Taim Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 19:57:38 GMT Organization: http://www.raveller.com Lines: 107 Message-ID: <8uevje$c3t$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 151.142.252.11 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Nov 09 19:57:38 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.75 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x68.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 151.142.252.11 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDraveller Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:455733 SPOILERS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . HERE THERE BE SPOILERS "Dave Groves" wrote: > I was reading this and came across something > possibly important. Now, I realize that the > Taim & Demandred theory is pretty much out, > but I have a great feeling/theory that Taim > is being controlled by Demandred. Here is > why: > > Page, 313 (Wonderful News): "Al'Thor has been > seen in five cities, including that cursed place > in the Waste, and a dozen towns since those > blind fools--those idiots!--failed in Cairhien." > Now, this shows that Taim (who ordered those > Asha'man to kill Rand) is either following > Demandred or still is Demandred and that Jordan > is trying to fool us by having him not recognize > Flinn. How else would Demandred know what > happened in Cairhien? Well, besides having > thousands of Darkfriend spies, but that's > irrelevant. I agree. Demandred is definitely associated with Taim. Or Taim is Demandred. Demandred is definitely a dumb-ass though. Or he could be very clever. Anyway, I've been holding on to the Taimandred theory for three books so I'll join the defense. 1) Flinn is a good distance away from Demandred, maybe far enough that D's saidin enhanced vision couldn't make out Flinn's features. 2) Demandred is holding a lot of saidin which makes him a direct Target. Perhaps Flinn doesn't have the proximity to see who it is, just that there is a saidin user around. He immediately attacks. 3) Demandred is supposed to be as close to Rand as Osan'gar. 4) Demandred ignored the older recruits in favor of his younger, more easily swayed recruits. 5) Demandred has a horrible mid-term memory. Being locked away all those years in the Bore left him with the ability to do his day to day job and no memory of anything else but the Glory Days. Kind of like Al Bundy, he tries to forget Kelly and Bud and the big red-headed woman. 6) It is kind of woody, the brush obscures Flinn's features. 7) He is worried about the Black Tower, and his mind just wasn't on the game. Sorry Coach Ba'alzamon. Plus he and his girlfriend Semirhage are going through a rough patch with the long-distance relationship and all. He really needs a break from all this Good vs Evil stuff so he can find himself. Against all odds the Taimandred-ers shall overcome! -- James Huckaby james@raveller.com http://www.raveller.com "Against stupidity the very gods Themselves contend in vain." Johann von Schiller (1759-1805) The Maid of Orleans, 1801 Act III, scene vi Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. From vagrant_4266@my-deja.com Sun Nov 12 15:44:27 CST 2000 Article: 455772 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!newsfeed.stanford.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail From: vagrant_4266@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: (SPOILERS) Demandred/Taim Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 21:28:11 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 127 Message-ID: <8uf4t0$h2a$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8uevje$c3t$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.168.66.3 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Nov 09 21:28:11 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.05 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x65.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 207.168.66.3 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDvagrant_4266 Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:455772 In article <8uevje$c3t$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, James Huckaby wrote: > SPOILERS > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > HERE THERE BE SPOILERS > > "Dave Groves" wrote: > > I was reading this and came across something > > possibly important. Now, I realize that the > > Taim & Demandred theory is pretty much out, > > but I have a great feeling/theory that Taim > > is being controlled by Demandred. Here is > > why: > > > > Page, 313 (Wonderful News): "Al'Thor has been > > seen in five cities, including that cursed place > > in the Waste, and a dozen towns since those > > blind fools--those idiots!--failed in Cairhien." > > > Now, this shows that Taim (who ordered those > > Asha'man to kill Rand) is either following > > Demandred or still is Demandred and that Jordan > > is trying to fool us by having him not recognize > > Flinn. How else would Demandred know what > > happened in Cairhien? Well, besides having > > thousands of Darkfriend spies, but that's > > irrelevant. > > I agree. Demandred is definitely associated with Taim. > Or Taim is Demandred. Demandred is definitely a > dumb-ass though. Or he could be very clever. > > Anyway, I've been holding on to the Taimandred theory > for three books so I'll join the defense. > > 1) Flinn is a good distance away from Demandred, > maybe far enough that D's saidin enhanced vision > couldn't make out Flinn's features. > 2) Demandred is holding a lot of saidin which makes > him a direct Target. Perhaps Flinn doesn't have > the proximity to see who it is, just that there > is a saidin user around. He immediately attacks. > 3) Demandred is supposed to be as close to Rand as > Osan'gar. With Demandred being that close to Rand he should recognize Flinn. Whether or not he's Taim is irrelevant. To me this says that one of your theories about distance, obstructions to vision, bad memory, or something else have to true. If Demandred is close enough to Flinn to see him clearly and doesn't recognize him even though he's been very near Rand this whole time then Demandred has some problems or is just plain dumb. > 4) Demandred ignored the older recruits in favor of > his younger, more easily swayed recruits. > 5) Demandred has a horrible mid-term memory. Being > locked away all those years in the Bore left him > with the ability to do his day to day job and > no memory of anything else but the Glory Days. > Kind of like Al Bundy, he tries to forget Kelly > and Bud and the big red-headed woman. > 6) It is kind of woody, the brush obscures Flinn's features. > 7) He is worried about the Black Tower, and his mind just > wasn't on the game. Sorry Coach Ba'alzamon. > Plus he and his girlfriend Semirhage are going > through a rough patch with the long-distance > relationship and all. He really needs a break from > all this Good vs Evil stuff so he can find himself. > > Against all odds the Taimandred-ers shall overcome! > > -- > James Huckaby > james@raveller.com > http://www.raveller.com > > "Against stupidity the very gods > Themselves contend in vain." > Johann von Schiller (1759-1805) > The Maid of Orleans, 1801 > Act III, scene vi > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. From HartfordC@aol.com Sun Nov 12 15:44:45 CST 2000 Article: 456097 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail From: Sherherazade Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: (SPOILERS) Demandred/Taim Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 15:08:05 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 60 Message-ID: <8uh30e$1ua$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8uevje$c3t$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8uf4t0$h2a$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.212.26.136 X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Nov 10 15:08:05 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows NT; DigExt; BCD2000) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x52.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 212.212.26.136 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDsnow_raven Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:456097 In article <8uf4t0$h2a$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, vagrant_4266@my-deja.com wrote: > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > With Demandred being that close to Rand he > should recognize Flinn. Whether or not he's > Taim is irrelevant. Not automatically true. Familiarity with Rand doesn't equate to familiarity with the Ashaman. Demandred *is* watching Rand (p.314 of the Orbit edition of WH) but doubling up Forsaken in the Black Tower is arguably a waste of resources. As much as I liked the Taimandred theory I'm leaning more toward Demandred being someone else in Rand's retinue. Dobraine seems the most likely candidate though there are a couple of other potentials. Unless I missed something (will re-read the last couple of books ASAP) a forsaken/DF is certainly close enough to Rand for Moridin and Cyndane to know he his plan vis a vis the taint and the Choedan Kal. CJH -- Chris Hartford Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. From dougstan@interlog.com Sun Nov 12 15:44:55 CST 2000 Article: 456128 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!newsfeed.stanford.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail From: Doug Stanley Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: (SPOILERS) Demandred/Taim Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 16:34:58 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 52 Message-ID: <8uh83i$6ed$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8uevje$c3t$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8uf4t0$h2a$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8uh30e$1ua$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.47.92.200 X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Nov 10 16:34:58 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows NT 4.0) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x73.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 209.47.92.200 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDdougstan Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:456128 In article <8uh30e$1ua$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Sherherazade wrote: > In article <8uf4t0$h2a$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > vagrant_4266@my-deja.com wrote: > > > . > > > . > > > . > > > . > > > . > > > . > > > . > > > . > > > . > > > . > > > . > > > . > > > . > > > . > > > . > > > . > > > . > > > . > > > . > > > . > > > . > > > . > > > . > > > . > > > . > > > . > > > . > > > . > > > . > > > . > > > . > > > . > > > . > > > . > > With Demandred being that close to Rand he > > should recognize Flinn. Whether or not he's > > Taim is irrelevant. > > Not automatically true. Familiarity with Rand doesn't equate to > familiarity with the Ashaman. Yes, but Flinn is one of the Asha'man guarding Rand, and is therefore usually close to Rand. Therefor if Demandred is someone close to Rand he she recognize Flinn. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. From Ozzyptitsarack@worldnet.att.net Sun Nov 12 16:00:29 CST 2000 Article: 456976 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmasters2!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail From: "Oleg Ozerov" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan References: <8uevje$c3t$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: (SPOILERS) Demandred/Taim Lines: 62 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: <6wqP5.8232$mq1.550379@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 06:11:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.75.67.140 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 974009474 12.75.67.140 (Sun, 12 Nov 2000 06:11:14 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 06:11:14 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:456976 John S. Novak, III wrote in message ... >On Thu, 09 Nov 2000 19:57:38 GMT, James Huckaby wrote: > >>SPOILERS > > >>1) Flinn is a good distance away from Demandred, >> maybe far enough that D's saidin enhanced vision >> couldn't make out Flinn's features. > >That would be incredibly lame. >Let's remember that when Cyndane looks at Alivia, she's far away, but >her enhanced vision is enough to pick out the fine lines at her eyes, >demonstrating she was not an Aes Sedai. (No ageless look.) > >Demandred is close enough to see that Flinn is old, decrepit, and >mostly bald. He's close enough to see that the women with him are >beautiful. He's close enough to see that he doesn't recognize them. Demandred is also incredibly stupid in that he didn't realize that the man could channel. I suppose he could have been thinking he was a Warder, but we didn't see that in his POV. What was he thinking, just random farmers walking the hill where Rand just happens to channel the greatest amount of Power likely _ever_ channeled? Dumb-dumb-dumb. >>4) Demandred ignored the older recruits in favor of >> his younger, more easily swayed recruits. > >Huh? I guess he's trying to say that Taim is gay. O. From slonimsky4938@home.com Sun Nov 12 16:03:34 CST 2000 Article: 456977 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news2.rdc1.on.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A0E34B5.13652ADD@home.com> From: Joseph Slonimsky X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Taim-Demandred-RJ Toying with Us. (long & WH Spoilers) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 216 Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 06:14:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.157.73.197 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news2.rdc1.on.home.com 974009642 24.157.73.197 (Sat, 11 Nov 2000 22:14:02 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 22:14:02 PST Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:456977 There be Spoilers here.. Spoiler Space Spoiler Space Spoiler Space Spoiler Space Spoiler Space Spoiler Space Spoiler Space Spoiler Space Spoiler Space Spoiler Space Spoiler Space Spoiler Space Spoiler Space Spoiler Space End of Spoiler Space This post is about what happens to the Taimendred theory with the new info from Winters Heart. Going Chronologically through the book, we have Taims visit with Elayne. >From Elayne's POV: "Blue and gold Dragons wove around sleeves of his black coat from elbows to cuffs, in imitation of the Dragons on Rand's arms. Though she suspected he would not appreciate the observation." "He was tall, nearly as tall as Rand" "..shadows seemed to follow him, as if half the lamps in the room had gone out; not real shadows, but an air of imminent violence that seemed palpable enough to soak up light." "..merely flashed another of those almost-smiles" "Many would feel overawed by him, even without his fancy coat or his infamous name" this matches with a quote about Demandred during the Forsaken meeting: "Standing with his feet apart, he was aware he dominated the room. He always did." To conclude, after the first time we see one of 'Taimendreds' personalities in WH, the Taimendred theory is only reinforced, although it's nothing we havn't seen before. The next chronological event worthy of notice is the Forsaken Social. >From Demandreds PoV: "..those blind fools--those idiots!--failed in Cairhien." [refers to Gedwyne and Rochaid's attack on Rand at the end of PoD] --This seems to connect Demandred to the attempt, as if Taimendred had sent them and they failed. "Osan'gar frowned at 'idiots' and 'blind fools,' as well he might," --At first glance, Osan'gar's frown seems to mean that he might have been resposible for sending the Asha'man, and that Taimendred had nothing to do with it. However, I Strongly Suspect that Osan'gar's frown is becuase he was actually _part_ of the attack, and therefore he would actually _be_ one of those 'blind fools'. "You were responsible for watching him, Osan'gar... ...You, and Demandred" [This is Aran'gar speaking so we can take this as fact] --Well this argues very strongly for Taimendred. We now know for sure that Demandred is supposed to be watching Rand. When Taim first came to Rand, it was rather obvious that he was frustrated about being kept away >from Rand. And of course Demandreds well known use of proxies fits in. "If the younge man does somehow remove [the taint], well you who channel saidin will no longer need the Great Lords special protection.[Greandal speaking]" and "Demandred's fists unclenched. It was out in the open at last. He had hoped to have Al'Thor dead--or failing that, captive--before this suspicion reared its head." And a couple connected quotes: "Rand Al'Thor or Lews Therin Telemon, he would rest easier when the fellow was dead" and at the end of WH: ".. then he could take care of killing Al'Thor. If one of the others did not get there first. He hoped fervently they did not. >From this chapter, we see the idea that one of the Male Forsaken might betray the Dark One, if they no longer needed the Dark Ones special protection against the taint. However, it seems none of the others had thought of this before _except_ for Demandred. One very good reason for Demandred to be thinking about this, before any of the other Chosen do, is if the position he now holds out in the world would be one where the DO might think he might be tempted to switch sides for. Being the M'heal, leader of the Asha'man, and a one time claimant to being the Dragon Reborn, might be able to step in and lead all the forces of light(this would of course be after Rand was disposed off). But Taimendred would never do this and betray the DO if it meant he'd lose the special protection against the Taint. However if there was no taint, if Rand were killed, Demandred might decide that instead of trying to become Nea'blis, he could switch sides and lead the forces of light. And with Demandred this arguement works especially well becuase of the second best thing he has. If he lead the forces of light to victory, he would be first best. And while Demandred might not do this even if he thought he could succeed, Moridin or the Dark One might suspect he might anyway. And that would be very bad for Demandreds health. "And you've just been hoping to blunder into him!... Hoping someone would find him for you!" [this is Greandal accusing Demandred.] -we can infer from this, that Demandred has been actively looking around RandLand for Rand. Perhaps visiting the big cities, hoping to get lucky. Well isn't it interesting that we know that after the attempt on Rand at the end of PoD, we know that Taim dissappeared for at least 3 days before showing up in Caemlyne and then the Black Tower the next day. Therefore, we know that Demandred has been searching for Rand, and we know that Taim dissapeared for a few days. After he comes back to the Black Tower, we of course don't know how long he stayed, so he might have stopped off and then continued trying to find Rand with the help of 'his' Asha'man. The next important event chronologically is Kisman in Far Madding. >From the PoV of Kisman: "'Kill him', the M'Hael had ordered" The fact that Taim was ordering DarkFriends, and that a Chosen joined in argues strongly that Taim was involved with them (although Taim was not revealing his other identity to the Asha'man) "Dashiva had simply vanished. Kisman did not know if he had run or the M'hael had killed him." This is very interesting. It's apparent that Kisman _didn't know_ that Dashiva was Osan'gar or one of the Chosen. That means that he wasn't recruited by Osan'gar. That of course means that someone else had to have recruited Kisman and the other DarkFriend Asha'man (Torvald, Gedwyne, and Rochaid) Now think about this. Someone recruited these people as DarkFriends, and it wasn't Osan'gar. Does anyone think that it's a coincidence that Taims leautenants were all DarkFriends? I think this is by far the strongest evidence for Taimendred we've seen so far. However, now comes the two seemingly big anti-Taimendred points. Kismans PoV: "'Kill him' Demandred had commanded later, but he had added that it would be better they died than let themselves be discovered again. By anyone, even the M'hael, as if he did not know of Taim's order." Hmm.. isn't this interesting? Seeminly makes Taim and Demandred different people. Well before I try and explain this away, I'd like to point out that this _Finally confirms Demandreds involvement with the Asha'men_. Now onto why Demandred _specifically_ mentioned the M'heal. Well, the Four DF Asha'man had made themselves public Traitors. Basically, Taimendred is making sure that there won't be anything that could tie the Traitors to Mazrim Taim. It's obvious of course from this, that Demandred has been keeping his identities seperate. This would be smart of course, becuase if Rand found out from someone that Taim=Demandred, Rand would be able to 'visit' the Black Tower, and kill Taim while he still doesn't know he's been discovered. This would account for why Taim had "been as displeased that they were found out as that they had failed". And finally if you really think about it, for Demandred to say make sure the M'hael doesn't discover you actually makes _less_ sense if Demandred is just Demandred. And of course, finally, the Demandred meets Flinn scene: Demandred's PoV: "Suddenly he saw people off to the right ahead of him _through the trees_, and _sheltered behind a rough gray trunk_." Emphisis mine. If the next book has a scene near the start that has Demandred thinking about his battle in Winters Heart, and how he had finally recognized the man channeling at him as Flinn, I think that would be very plausable, especially as how Demandreds scene was so short. In fact I'd like to go back to the meta-reason. RJ is toying with us. He will probably reveal Taim=Demandred in the next book, but since so many of us had figured it out, and since he wanted it to be a surprise he's made it seem that Taim!=Demandred in just 2 short misleading scenes. So it seems that Taimendred lives on another book. -Krax Joseph Slonimsky From slonimsky4938@home.com Sun Nov 12 18:08:11 CST 2000 Article: 456977 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news2.rdc1.on.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A0E34B5.13652ADD@home.com> From: Joseph Slonimsky X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Taim-Demandred-RJ Toying with Us. (long & WH Spoilers) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 216 Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 06:14:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.157.73.197 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news2.rdc1.on.home.com 974009642 24.157.73.197 (Sat, 11 Nov 2000 22:14:02 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 22:14:02 PST Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:456977 There be Spoilers here.. Spoiler Space Spoiler Space Spoiler Space Spoiler Space Spoiler Space Spoiler Space Spoiler Space Spoiler Space Spoiler Space Spoiler Space Spoiler Space Spoiler Space Spoiler Space Spoiler Space End of Spoiler Space This post is about what happens to the Taimendred theory with the new info from Winters Heart. Going Chronologically through the book, we have Taims visit with Elayne. >From Elayne's POV: "Blue and gold Dragons wove around sleeves of his black coat from elbows to cuffs, in imitation of the Dragons on Rand's arms. Though she suspected he would not appreciate the observation." "He was tall, nearly as tall as Rand" "..shadows seemed to follow him, as if half the lamps in the room had gone out; not real shadows, but an air of imminent violence that seemed palpable enough to soak up light." "..merely flashed another of those almost-smiles" "Many would feel overawed by him, even without his fancy coat or his infamous name" this matches with a quote about Demandred during the Forsaken meeting: "Standing with his feet apart, he was aware he dominated the room. He always did." To conclude, after the first time we see one of 'Taimendreds' personalities in WH, the Taimendred theory is only reinforced, although it's nothing we havn't seen before. The next chronological event worthy of notice is the Forsaken Social. >From Demandreds PoV: "..those blind fools--those idiots!--failed in Cairhien." [refers to Gedwyne and Rochaid's attack on Rand at the end of PoD] --This seems to connect Demandred to the attempt, as if Taimendred had sent them and they failed. "Osan'gar frowned at 'idiots' and 'blind fools,' as well he might," --At first glance, Osan'gar's frown seems to mean that he might have been resposible for sending the Asha'man, and that Taimendred had nothing to do with it. However, I Strongly Suspect that Osan'gar's frown is becuase he was actually _part_ of the attack, and therefore he would actually _be_ one of those 'blind fools'. "You were responsible for watching him, Osan'gar... ...You, and Demandred" [This is Aran'gar speaking so we can take this as fact] --Well this argues very strongly for Taimendred. We now know for sure that Demandred is supposed to be watching Rand. When Taim first came to Rand, it was rather obvious that he was frustrated about being kept away >from Rand. And of course Demandreds well known use of proxies fits in. "If the younge man does somehow remove [the taint], well you who channel saidin will no longer need the Great Lords special protection.[Greandal speaking]" and "Demandred's fists unclenched. It was out in the open at last. He had hoped to have Al'Thor dead--or failing that, captive--before this suspicion reared its head." And a couple connected quotes: "Rand Al'Thor or Lews Therin Telemon, he would rest easier when the fellow was dead" and at the end of WH: ".. then he could take care of killing Al'Thor. If one of the others did not get there first. He hoped fervently they did not. >From this chapter, we see the idea that one of the Male Forsaken might betray the Dark One, if they no longer needed the Dark Ones special protection against the taint. However, it seems none of the others had thought of this before _except_ for Demandred. One very good reason for Demandred to be thinking about this, before any of the other Chosen do, is if the position he now holds out in the world would be one where the DO might think he might be tempted to switch sides for. Being the M'heal, leader of the Asha'man, and a one time claimant to being the Dragon Reborn, might be able to step in and lead all the forces of light(this would of course be after Rand was disposed off). But Taimendred would never do this and betray the DO if it meant he'd lose the special protection against the Taint. However if there was no taint, if Rand were killed, Demandred might decide that instead of trying to become Nea'blis, he could switch sides and lead the forces of light. And with Demandred this arguement works especially well becuase of the second best thing he has. If he lead the forces of light to victory, he would be first best. And while Demandred might not do this even if he thought he could succeed, Moridin or the Dark One might suspect he might anyway. And that would be very bad for Demandreds health. "And you've just been hoping to blunder into him!... Hoping someone would find him for you!" [this is Greandal accusing Demandred.] -we can infer from this, that Demandred has been actively looking around RandLand for Rand. Perhaps visiting the big cities, hoping to get lucky. Well isn't it interesting that we know that after the attempt on Rand at the end of PoD, we know that Taim dissappeared for at least 3 days before showing up in Caemlyne and then the Black Tower the next day. Therefore, we know that Demandred has been searching for Rand, and we know that Taim dissapeared for a few days. After he comes back to the Black Tower, we of course don't know how long he stayed, so he might have stopped off and then continued trying to find Rand with the help of 'his' Asha'man. The next important event chronologically is Kisman in Far Madding. >From the PoV of Kisman: "'Kill him', the M'Hael had ordered" The fact that Taim was ordering DarkFriends, and that a Chosen joined in argues strongly that Taim was involved with them (although Taim was not revealing his other identity to the Asha'man) "Dashiva had simply vanished. Kisman did not know if he had run or the M'hael had killed him." This is very interesting. It's apparent that Kisman _didn't know_ that Dashiva was Osan'gar or one of the Chosen. That means that he wasn't recruited by Osan'gar. That of course means that someone else had to have recruited Kisman and the other DarkFriend Asha'man (Torvald, Gedwyne, and Rochaid) Now think about this. Someone recruited these people as DarkFriends, and it wasn't Osan'gar. Does anyone think that it's a coincidence that Taims leautenants were all DarkFriends? I think this is by far the strongest evidence for Taimendred we've seen so far. However, now comes the two seemingly big anti-Taimendred points. Kismans PoV: "'Kill him' Demandred had commanded later, but he had added that it would be better they died than let themselves be discovered again. By anyone, even the M'hael, as if he did not know of Taim's order." Hmm.. isn't this interesting? Seeminly makes Taim and Demandred different people. Well before I try and explain this away, I'd like to point out that this _Finally confirms Demandreds involvement with the Asha'men_. Now onto why Demandred _specifically_ mentioned the M'heal. Well, the Four DF Asha'man had made themselves public Traitors. Basically, Taimendred is making sure that there won't be anything that could tie the Traitors to Mazrim Taim. It's obvious of course from this, that Demandred has been keeping his identities seperate. This would be smart of course, becuase if Rand found out from someone that Taim=Demandred, Rand would be able to 'visit' the Black Tower, and kill Taim while he still doesn't know he's been discovered. This would account for why Taim had "been as displeased that they were found out as that they had failed". And finally if you really think about it, for Demandred to say make sure the M'hael doesn't discover you actually makes _less_ sense if Demandred is just Demandred. And of course, finally, the Demandred meets Flinn scene: Demandred's PoV: "Suddenly he saw people off to the right ahead of him _through the trees_, and _sheltered behind a rough gray trunk_." Emphisis mine. If the next book has a scene near the start that has Demandred thinking about his battle in Winters Heart, and how he had finally recognized the man channeling at him as Flinn, I think that would be very plausable, especially as how Demandreds scene was so short. In fact I'd like to go back to the meta-reason. RJ is toying with us. He will probably reveal Taim=Demandred in the next book, but since so many of us had figured it out, and since he wanted it to be a surprise he's made it seem that Taim!=Demandred in just 2 short misleading scenes. So it seems that Taimendred lives on another book. -Krax Joseph Slonimsky From kor2@midway.uchicago.edu Sun Nov 12 18:09:28 CST 2000 Article: 457220 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!not-for-mail Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: (SPOILERS) Demandred/Taim References: <8uevje$c3t$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3A0BDA03.6A370720@rdg.ac.uk> <8uh2ag$151$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Organization: *sniff* X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: kor2@midway.uchicago.edu (P. Korda) Lines: 61 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 974066393 128.135.12.7 (Sun, 12 Nov 2000 15:59:53 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 15:59:53 CST Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 21:59:53 GMT Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:457220 In article <8uh2ag$151$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, wrote: >In article < >> > SPOILERS >> > . >> > . >> > . >> > . >> > . >> > . >> > . >> > . >> > . >> > . >> > . >> > . >> > . >> > . >> > . >> > . >> > . >> > . >> > . >> > . >> > . >> > . >> > . >> > . >> > . >> > . >> > . >> > . >> > . >> > . >> > . >> > . >> > . >> > . >The fact that Demandred doesn't recognize >Flinn, regardless of whether or not >Demandred is associated with Taim in any >way, is very strange. If Demandred is really >watching Rand that closely how could he not >recognize one of Rand's three favorite >Ashaman? This, I think, is a very important point, and a significant clue (unless, of course, RJ wasn't paying attention and just forgot). We know that Demandred is somehow associated with Rand. Failure to recognise one of Rand's personal Asha'man indicates that he's NOT somebody who spends a lot of time around Rand.[1] I think that rules out any of Rand's major commanders, such as Dobraine and Bashere, who seem to spend more time in Rand's company than even Taim (since he avoids Taim). Unless Dem is just wanking around, he must be with some significant group of Rand's followers. I'd guess either the Asha'man or the Aiel, who are the two most significant forces Rand has. My money is on the Asha'man, Taimandred or no Taimandred. -pam From kor2@midway.uchicago.edu Sun Nov 12 18:16:36 CST 2000 Article: 457291 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!not-for-mail Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: (SPOILERS) More on Demandred References: <3a0cf647.34171774@news.pacbell.net> Organization: *sniff* X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: kor2@midway.uchicago.edu (P. Korda) Lines: 58 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 974072588 128.135.12.7 (Sun, 12 Nov 2000 17:43:08 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 17:43:08 CST Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 23:43:08 GMT Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:457291 In article <3a0cf647.34171774@news.pacbell.net>, alex werner wrote: > > >spoiler space > > > > >spoiler space > > > > >spoiler space > > > > >spoiler space > > > > >As far as speculations concerning Demandred's current whereabouts are >concerned, here's an interesting quote, from the bottom of page 317 of >WH, said by Graendal to Dem: "And you've just been hoping to blunder >into him!" she screamed at Demandred. "Hoping someone will find him >for you! Fool! Fool!" > >This would, at least on the surface, seem to indicate that Dem is more >or less aimless, hoping that someone (his lackeys? the other >forsaken?) will locate Rand. Where could he be where there would be >some chance of someone locating Rand for him, but where he wasn't >actively searching? The Asha'man. >From Kisman's POV, we _know_ that the "renegades" were looking for Rand to finish him off, and that eventually they found the deliberate clues that led them to Far Madding. We also know that Taim was involved in this effort, as was Demandred. We don't know of any other group who was systematically looking for Rand, and Rand's false trails, as well as the true one, were laid to be followed only by people who could Travel, and that narrows the field greatly. During Mad Moridin's Tea Party (thanks, Thor!), Demandred exhibits familiarity with the Asha'man attack on the Sun Palace, AS WELL AS having followed (or having had a flunky follow) all of Rand's false trails. Mark my words: if Taim is not Demandred himself, he is a minion. -pam From jsn@concentric.net Sun Nov 12 18:34:48 CST 2000 Article: 456430 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.tele.dk!130.133.1.3!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!ts028d07.chi-il.concentric.NET!not-for-mail From: jsn@concentric.net (John S. Novak, III) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: Taim - Spoilers Date: 11 Nov 2000 03:23:16 GMT Organization: Cynics Central Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <973783819.519091@sj-nntpcache-3> <3%0P5.250$z3.3068@uchinews> Reply-To: jsn@concentric.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ts028d07.chi-il.concentric.net (206.173.190.115) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 973912996 2103998 206.173.190.115 (16 [39511]) X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.3 UNIX) Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:456430 On Sat, 11 Nov 2000 01:09:19 GMT, P. Korda wrote: >>Spoiler space >So, Kisman _expects_ Demandred to know of Taim's order. This only >makes sense if Kisman knows that Taim is a DF. Personally, I agree. However, an alternate interpretation is that Kisman simply expects Demandred to be very well-informed about Black Tower politics and policies, as though there were a spy in the camps. -- John S. Novak, III jsn@concentric.net The Humblest Man on the Net From mhackell@princeton.edu Sun Nov 12 18:44:58 CST 2000 Article: 457245 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!cnn.Princeton.EDU!not-for-mail From: Matthew Hackell Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: Further evidence Taim is NOT Demandred? Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 17:20:04 -0500 Organization: Princeton University Lines: 86 Message-ID: References: <3A0F103B.3020000@home.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mhackell.student.princeton.edu X-Trace: cnn.Princeton.EDU 974067664 5577 140.180.145.102 (12 Nov 2000 22:21:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@cnn.Princeton.EDU NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Nov 2000 22:21:04 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.30 Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:457245 >From the book of John R. Heltsley II: > SPOILER SPACE > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've been avoiding reading any of the messages in here with Spoiler > warnings, (as I'm still reading the book) so I'm not sure if this has > been mentioned. I'm going to mention this, and see if this point had > been bandied about yet. :) > > In Chapter 22, "Out of Thin Air", during Kisman's POV, he is thinking > back to what had happened. (p. 441-2) > > He recalls thinking that the M'Hael (Taim) sent them (the other Asha'man > and him) to kill Rand at the end of PoD. Next, he recalls Demandred > telling him to kill Rand. At the end of that memory, he recalls that > Demandred had seemed not to know of Taim's order. > > If Taim and Demandred were the same person, Kisman would not have > recalled the memories as seperate situations. (At least, that holds true > if he knew that Taim=Demandred.) However, if Demandred is seemingly > unaware of what Taim had ordered, indicating that Taim is not Demandred. > In addition, if Taim was Demandred, why would he appear to Kisman in > both forms? Would it not be easier simply to appear as one or the other, > and not both? Allowing people to know your true identity could backfire > if they were tortured for information. More importantly, it shows that Taim and Demandred have different faces. Yet Taim has to explain away his lack of a beard. This only makes sense if he is himself and shaved it, because we now know that Demandred does NOT happen to look a lot like a clean-shaven Taim. This argument is OVER. > On a side note, did anyone else catch the reference to OTHER Chosen > during the AoL? (Ones that had been killed?) It was on p.316, during the > Forsaken's meeting. Best way to keep it straight for discussion purposes: There were 29 Chosen. The 13 that survived and were sealed are the Forsaken. > "During the War of Power, more than a dozen of the Chosen had died of > the Great Lord's suspicion." But was Beidomon one of them? My guess: yes. He was one killed by the DO for suspicion. Will we find out why? > This could open the door for more transmigrations. It won't. -- Matt Winner of the Rose Bruford Medal for Effort From mhackell@princeton.edu Sun Nov 12 18:45:19 CST 2000 Article: 457235 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!cnn.Princeton.EDU!not-for-mail From: Matthew Hackell Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Putting paid to Taimandred (SPOILERS) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 17:13:33 -0500 Organization: Princeton University Lines: 49 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: mhackell.student.princeton.edu X-Trace: cnn.Princeton.EDU 974067273 5577 140.180.145.102 (12 Nov 2000 22:14:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@cnn.Princeton.EDU NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Nov 2000 22:14:33 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.30 Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:457235 Spoiler Space We've discussed two scenes that seem to crush Taimandred as a theory: Kisman's internal monologue and Demandred's failure to recognize Flinn. The latter has been explained in some detail, but the first scene is in fact doubly convincing. To wit: Kisman is given successive orders by Taim and Demandred, and Demandred seems not to know the M'Hael's orders. One mark. BUT Kisman believes that the two are different people, obviously. Therefore, if Demandred is to be Taim, he must be using the Mirror of Mists. However, if he is using an illusion to look like Taim, why did he make the effect more difficult by "shaving" his beard? If it's an illusion anyway, it would be foolish to look "a little like Taim." -- Matt My vote for Ralph Nader will send this country a powerful message: Bush is a bad president. From beneric1@aol.com Sun Nov 12 22:41:43 CST 2000 Article: 457053 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!logbridge.uoregon.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: beneric1@aol.com (Beneric1) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Taim Forsaken Looney Theory(minor spoiler) Lines: 29 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 12 Nov 2000 09:21:49 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20001112042149.28154.00001127@ng-fl1.aol.com> Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:457053 Spoiler Lurker here, just thought I'd come out of the woodwork and see if any of ya'll think there's any chance of Taim becoming a new Forsaken, since we can somewhat assume that he's not Demandred. I say he's one of the first third age person with the qualifications. He's almost as strong as Rand and he's evil just for the sake of being evil. I don't know, maybe he'll join the ranks of Chosen if the current one's keep displaying the incompetence we've seen lately. IMHO he's done more for the cause than several of the Chosen like Moggy and Lanfear/Cyndane. No real evidence to back this up, so maybe some one else will run w/it. Flame away. Ben From graya@friends.edu Sun Nov 12 22:49:54 CST 2000 Article: 457340 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!logbridge.uoregon.edu!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!wks-65-27-52-243.kscable.COM!not-for-mail From: Amy Gray Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: WH: Bad Guy Roundup (SPOILERS) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 19:48:50 -0600 Organization: very little Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: wks-65-27-52-243.kscable.com (65.27.52.243) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 974079961 2493418 65.27.52.243 (16 [57955]) X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.30 Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:457340 In article , kor2@midway.uchicago.edu says... > So, if Taim is Dem, why would he give the same order twice, and > specifically forbid Kisman from letting Taim know about it? This, I think, > is strong evidence against the Taimandred theory, although I suppose it > could be argued that Taimandred was trying to cover his tracks, in case > Kisman was captured and questioned. I tend to think this is also evidence that Dem isn't controlling Taim, or at least wasn't at the time of these orders. Why repeat yourself, and why conceal your orders to one lackey from that lackey's superior, your minion? Messy. Pass the orders down the chain of command, and if they have to be reinforced, do it, but not in this stealth fashion. -- Amy Gray graya@friends.edu UIN: 90147322 From kor2@midway.uchicago.edu Sun Nov 12 22:50:43 CST 2000 Article: 457309 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!not-for-mail Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: (SPOILERS) Demandred/Taim References: <8uh2ag$151$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Organization: *sniff* X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: kor2@midway.uchicago.edu (P. Korda) Lines: 41 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 974074569 128.135.12.7 (Sun, 12 Nov 2000 18:16:09 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 18:16:09 CST Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 00:16:09 GMT Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:457309 In article , John S. Novak, III wrote: >On Sun, 12 Nov 2000 21:59:53 GMT, P. Korda wrote: > >>>> > SPOILERS > > >>We know that Demandred is somehow associated with Rand. Failure to >>recognise one of Rand's personal Asha'man indicates that he's NOT >>somebody who spends a lot of time around Rand.[1] > >Footnote Error: Redo from Start. Oops. [1] Unless, of course, the non-recognintion was a mistake on Jordan's part. [I think that Dem is with the Asha'man] >I think so too, but a real careful, intentional reading later on might >unconvince me. I was going to make a case for Bashere, but decided >not to on the grounds that Bashere is too short to maintain a >shortness disguise weave for that long. I have a friend whose long-held loony theory is that Bashere is Demandred. It doesn't wash. Flinn started hanging out with Rand before the assault on Illian, and I think Bashere would have had enough of a chance to see Rand's favorite Asha'man that he, too, should recognise Flinn. Not to mention, Bashere made an effort to check out Perrin and verify that he was good enough for his daughter. I just can't see Demandred making that effort, or succeeding in it well enough to fool Mrs. Bashere. In fact, I think that if Dem was going to masquerade as Davram Bashere, he'd have made sure that Mrs. Bashere sufferred an unfortuante accident before they set off on campaign. -pam From jsn@concentric.net Sun Nov 12 22:51:10 CST 2000 Article: 457404 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!ts028d18.chi-il.concentric.NET!not-for-mail From: jsn@concentric.net (John S. Novak, III) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: (SPOILERS) Demandred/Taim Date: 13 Nov 2000 04:24:00 GMT Organization: Cynics Central Lines: 39 Message-ID: References: <8uh2ag$151$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Reply-To: jsn@concentric.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ts028d18.chi-il.concentric.net (206.173.190.126) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 974089440 2574293 206.173.190.126 (16 [39511]) X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.3 UNIX) Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:457404 On Mon, 13 Nov 2000 00:16:09 GMT, P. Korda wrote: >>>>> > SPOILERS >>I was going to make a case for Bashere, but decided >>not to on the grounds that Bashere is too short to maintain a >>shortness disguise weave for that long. >I have a friend whose long-held loony theory is that Bashere is >Demandred. >It doesn't wash. Flinn started hanging out with Rand before the >assault on Illian, and I think Bashere would have had enough of a >chance to see Rand's favorite Asha'man that he, too, should recognise >Flinn. [...] Also, I just don't think Demandred could maintain the illusion of shortness, what with tackling him bodily in tPoD, for all that long. Who do we know in Caemlyn, Tear, or Cairhien, that is particularly tall? Hell, with that criterion, he could be any one of a number of nameless Aiel. I can't think of anyone who has a name that would tip me off as being mythologically ominous, though. >In fact, I think that if Dem was going to masquerade as Davram >Bashere, he'd have made sure that Mrs. Bashere sufferred an >unfortuante accident before they set off on campaign. Or, maybe she likes the new, forceful Bashere. -- John S. Novak, III jsn@concentric.net The Humblest Man on the Net From jhamby@cub.kcnet.org Sun Nov 12 22:51:34 CST 2000 Article: 457314 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Message-ID: <3A0F37D2.A51D687D@cub.kcnet.org> Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 19:37:39 -0500 From: John Hamby X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD snapN45b1 (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: (SPOILERS) Demandred/Taim References: <8uevje$c3t$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3A0BDA03.6A370720@rdg.ac.uk> <8uh2ag$151$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: goliath2 Lines: 84 X-Authenticated-User: jhamby X-Comments: This message was posted through Newsfeeds.com X-Comments2: IMPORTANT: Newsfeeds.com does not condone, nor support, spam or any illegal or copyrighted postings. X-Comments3: IMPORTANT: Under NO circumstances will postings containing illegal or copyrighted material through this service be tolerated!! X-Report: Please report illegal or inappropriate use to You may also use our online abuse reporting from: http://www.newsfeeds.com/abuseform.htm X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers, INCLUDING the body (DO NOT SEND ATTACHMENTS) Organization: Newsfeeds.com http://www.newsfeeds.com 73,000+ UNCENSORED Newsgroups. Path: uchinews!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!local-out.newsfeeds.com!newsfeeds.com!goliath2.newsfeeds.com!newsfeeds.com!g2!anonymous!g2 Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:457314 "P. Korda" wrote: > In article <8uh2ag$151$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, wrote: > >In article < > >> > SPOILERS > >> > . > >> > . > >> > . > >> > . > >> > . > >> > . > >> > . > >> > . > >> > . > >> > . > >> > . > >> > . > >> > . > >> > . > >> > . > >> > . > >> > . > >> > . > >> > . > >> > . > >> > . > >> > . > >> > . > >> > . > >> > . > >> > . > >> > . > >> > . > >> > . > >> > . > >> > . > >> > . > >> > . > >> > . > > >The fact that Demandred doesn't recognize > >Flinn, regardless of whether or not > >Demandred is associated with Taim in any > >way, is very strange. If Demandred is really > >watching Rand that closely how could he not > >recognize one of Rand's three favorite > >Ashaman? > > This, I think, is a very important point, and a significant clue > (unless, of course, RJ wasn't paying attention and just forgot). > > We know that Demandred is somehow associated with Rand. Failure to > recognise one of Rand's personal Asha'man indicates that he's NOT > somebody who spends a lot of time around Rand.[1] I think that rules > out any of Rand's major commanders, such as Dobraine and Bashere, who > seem to spend more time in Rand's company than even Taim (since he > avoids Taim). Actually Bashere was ruled out as a Forsaken the day he slammed Rand into the ground when wielding Callandor against the Seanchan. Any Illusion would have been shattered immediately with such contact, no? > Unless Dem is just wanking around, he must be with some > significant group of Rand's followers. I'd guess either the Asha'man > or the Aiel, who are the two most significant forces Rand has. My > money is on the Asha'man, Taimandred or no Taimandred. I like the idea that he is with the Aiel. Just nothing to support it as of yet. I tend to think that Sammael's comment about Demandred was not a clue as to where he might be. Either Jordan was misguiding us or Sammael was misguiding Graendal. Or both. --- JSH -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- From slonimsky4938@home.com Mon Nov 13 10:17:52 CST 2000 Article: 457448 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!newsfeed.stanford.edu!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!howland.erols.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news2.rdc1.on.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A0F7C55.21DCE233@home.com> From: Joseph Slonimsky X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: Taim-Demandred-RJ Toying with Us. (long & WH Spoilers) References: <3A0E34B5.13652ADD@home.com> <3a0f4acc.692514@News.CIS.DFN.DE> <3a0f664a.15541255@news.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 92 Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 05:31:54 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.157.73.197 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news2.rdc1.on.home.com 974093514 24.157.73.197 (Sun, 12 Nov 2000 21:31:54 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 21:31:54 PST Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:457448 "Laura M. Parkinson" wrote: > > wrote: > > > >>There be Spoilers here.. > >> > >>Spoiler Space > >> > >>Spoiler Space > >> > >>Spoiler Space > >> > >>Spoiler Space > >> > >>Spoiler Space > >> > >>Spoiler Space > >> > >>Spoiler Space > >> > >>Spoiler Space > >> > >>Spoiler Space > >> > >>Spoiler Space > >> > >>Spoiler Space > >> > >>Spoiler Space > >> > >>Spoiler Space > >> > >>Spoiler Space > >> > >>End of Spoiler Space > >>Demandred's PoV: > >> > >>"Suddenly he saw people off to the right ahead of him _through the > >>trees_, and _sheltered behind a rough gray trunk_." Emphisis mine. > >> > >>If the next book has a scene near the start that has Demandred thinking > >>about his battle in Winters Heart, and how he had finally recognized the > >>man channeling at him as Flinn, I think that would be very plausable, > >>especially as how Demandreds scene was so short. > > > >Demandred is close enough that he is able to recognize that the two > >women are AS and judge their varying levels of attractiveness. I was a > >Taimandred partisan before this book, but it pushes the bounds of > >realism that he could clearly see the faces of the two AS on > >alternating sides of Flinn, but not see Flinn. > > I'd agree. I was a major proponent of Taimandred before, but this... > while I'll participate in the "well maybe he.." discussions for the > heck of it, honestly I think the only decent argument that would let > the Taimandred theory stand in any way would be that Demandred only > poses at Taim at times, and it was the "real Taim" that had all the > contact with Flinn. So if the main hang-up with the Taimendred theory is Demandred not recognizing Flinn, there is an easy answer: some facts: In Winters Heart we find out that: * Demandred is resposible for "watching" Rand. * And Kisman _specifically_ thinks about how he has _only_ met Demandred and Moridin among the Chosen. * We also know that Demandred has contact with the Black Tower. So one part of the scene where Demandred meets Flinn is already bogus. Demandred should not have dismissed Flinn as 'some old guy'. And as already mentioned, Demandred must have been suffering a brain-cramp to dismiss _anyone_ walking around near where the Choeden Kal is being used. In fact, I just re-read the passage, and Demandred DOES NOT recognize the two women with Flinn as Aes Sedai (he figures out what they are through the strength of power directed at him) This argues very strongly that Demandred actually _did not_ get a look at their faces. And after Flinn starts attacking there are exploding things and burning trees in the way of a clear view. So unless you are willing to argue that Demandred has been so sheltered that he doesn't know that an Aes Sedai has distinctive features (something that _all_ the other forsaken have figured out), then not recognizing Flinn shouldn't count as an argument. -Krax Joseph Slonimsky From jsn@concentric.net Mon Nov 13 10:25:33 CST 2000 Article: 457485 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!ts028d18.chi-il.concentric.NET!not-for-mail From: jsn@concentric.net (John S. Novak, III) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: WH: Bad Guy Roundup (SPOILERS) Date: 13 Nov 2000 06:24:49 GMT Organization: Cynics Central Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <0CLP5.89$Y3.598@uchinews> Reply-To: jsn@concentric.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ts028d18.chi-il.concentric.net (206.173.190.126) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 974096689 2574293 206.173.190.126 (16 [39511]) X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.3 UNIX) Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:457485 On Mon, 13 Nov 2000 06:11:08 GMT, P. Korda wrote: >>Spoilers: >>On the subject of Demandred being J. Random Asha'man, shouldn't >>Flinn's prominence in the Black Tower count against that? >Okay, people keep saying this, but I do not see where Flinn's supposed >prominance comes from. He was chosen for Rand's personal guard, but >after that, nobody in the BT _saw_ him, ever. Before that, he was >himself J. Random Asha'man, IIRC. He certainly wasn't one of Taim's >lieutenants. Off the top of my head, he's been at the Black Tower since before there was a Black Tower, or even before Taim was there at the Farm. He was one of the first to start leading the recruiting parties. He's at Dumai's Wells, and singled out to follow Rand, and is also part of the fight to throw back the Seanchan. I seem to recall that he is mentioned as being pretty damn strong, too. His proclivity for Healing is open knowledge. As far as the Black Tower has a core of veterans, Flinn is definitely among them. -- John S. Novak, III jsn@concentric.net The Humblest Man on the Net From david@evildeath.madasafish.com Mon Nov 13 15:59:36 CST 2000 Article: 457544 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail From: "David Chapman" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: (SPOILERS) Demandred/Taim Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 10:58:23 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Reply-To: "David Chapman" References: <8uevje$c3t$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3A0BDA03.6A370720@rdg.ac.uk> <8uh2ag$151$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <4wLP5.9313$mq1.618245@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 32 Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:457544 "Oleg Ozerov" wrote in message news:4wLP5.9313$mq1.618245@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > > John S. Novak, III wrote in message ... > >On Sun, 12 Nov 2000 21:59:53 GMT, P. Korda > wrote: > > > >>>> > SPOILERS > > > > > > > I've come to a firm opinion on that even a Forsaken could not impersonate > anybody well known for any extended period of time. > So, since Demandred is nothing like Aiel physically, I don't think he can be > one of them. I'm not sure why you're considering the physical aspect, Oleg. How long do you think Demandred would be able to properly uphold ji'e'toh without making a catastrophic error, when Rand had intensive lessons from Aviendha for weeks and *still* couldn't figure it out? -- "I used to be a pacifist, after a fashion." "What happened?" "Expediency." From slonimsky4938@home.com Mon Nov 13 16:00:29 CST 2000 Article: 457741 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!enews.sgi.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news2.rdc1.on.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A10547D.22C2418@home.com> From: Joseph Slonimsky X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: (SPOILERS) Demandred/Taim References: <8uevje$c3t$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8up2v6$31$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 53 Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 20:54:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.157.73.197 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news2.rdc1.on.home.com 974148849 24.157.73.197 (Mon, 13 Nov 2000 12:54:09 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 12:54:09 PST Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:457741 James Huckaby wrote: > jsn@concentric.net wrote: > > James Huckaby wrote: > > >SPOILERS > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > > > >I agree. Demandred is definitely associated with Taim. > > >Or Taim is Demandred. Demandred is definitely a > > >dumb-ass though. Or he could be very clever. > > > > Well, your decisiveness has clinched it, for me. > > My strength of will on the issue is equal to the strength > of my arguments about why Demandred didn't recognize Flinn. > (i.e., pretty damn weak and kind of cheesy) > > > >Anyway, I've been holding on to the Taimandred theory > > >for three books so I'll join the defense. > > >Against all odds the Taimandred-ers shall overcome! > > > > You're screwed. > > Yeah well, I thought there was time for one last hurrah. > > I'm now officially switched to the Taim != Dem side, > the Taim = Taim side, and the Dem = Bela side. > I think you bailed out a little too early. as I'v been pointing out in another thread, the fact that Demandred did not recognize the two women with Flinn as Aes Sedai can only mean that he didn't get a clear look at their faces, witch explains why he didn't recognize Flinn. -Krax From slonimsky4938@home.com Mon Nov 13 16:25:58 CST 2000 Article: 457778 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news2.rdc1.on.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A1063CB.E99A38D3@home.com> From: Joseph Slonimsky X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: (SPOILERS) Demandred/Taim References: <8uevje$c3t$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8up2v6$31$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3A10547D.22C2418@home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 74 Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 21:59:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.157.73.197 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news2.rdc1.on.home.com 974152766 24.157.73.197 (Mon, 13 Nov 2000 13:59:26 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 13:59:26 PST Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:457778 Matthew Hackell wrote: > From the book of Joseph Slonimsky: > > > > > > James Huckaby wrote: > > > > > jsn@concentric.net wrote: > > > > James Huckaby wrote: > > > > >SPOILERS > > > . > > > . > > > . > > > . > > > . > > > . > > > . > > > . > > > . > > > . > > > . > > > . > > > . > > > . > > > . > > > . > > > > > > > >I agree. Demandred is definitely associated with Taim. > > > > >Or Taim is Demandred. Demandred is definitely a > > > > >dumb-ass though. Or he could be very clever. > > > > > > > > Well, your decisiveness has clinched it, for me. > > > > > > My strength of will on the issue is equal to the strength > > > of my arguments about why Demandred didn't recognize Flinn. > > > (i.e., pretty damn weak and kind of cheesy) > > > > > > > >Anyway, I've been holding on to the Taimandred theory > > > > >for three books so I'll join the defense. > > > > >Against all odds the Taimandred-ers shall overcome! > > > > > > > > You're screwed. > > > > > > Yeah well, I thought there was time for one last hurrah. > > > > > > I'm now officially switched to the Taim != Dem side, > > > the Taim = Taim side, and the Dem = Bela side. > > > > > > > I think you bailed out a little too early. as I'v been pointing out in > > another thread, the fact that Demandred did not recognize the two women > > with Flinn as Aes Sedai can only mean that he didn't get a clear look at > > their faces, witch explains why he didn't recognize Flinn. > > But we know he doesn't look like Taim, which means that he HAS to use > illusion to run the Black Tower. Do we honestly believe that he's never > touched a single Asha'man in his time running the BT? Also, is he so > poor an illusionist that he had to claim he "shaved his beard" to be > able to even remotely look like Taim? There's no way the Taim facade is > an illusion--he's either a proxy or an ex-proxy who's striking out on > his own. Ugh. This argument was used and disproven a very long time ago. Taimendred says he shaved his beard, becuase using illusion for something like a beard is precisely the type of thing that can get discovered. Taimendred is probably using subtle illusion, like a small change in skinn color, slightly different features.. etc.. And remember that Lanfear was able to get away with all that illusary far in book 4. -Krax From deffeyes@worldnet.NOSPAM.att.net Mon Nov 13 23:06:40 CST 2000 Article: 457822 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.lightlink.com!news.alt.net!usenet From: Steve Deffeyes Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: Putting paid to Taimandred (SPOILERS) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 15:30:51 -0800 Organization: Altopia Corp. - Usenet Access - http://www.altopia.com Lines: 61 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 X-No-Archive: yes Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:457822 Matthew Hackell wrote: > >Spoiler Space > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >We've discussed two scenes that seem to crush Taimandred as a theory: >Kisman's internal monologue and Demandred's failure to recognize Flinn. >The latter has been explained in some detail, but the first scene is in >fact doubly convincing. > >To wit: > >Kisman is given successive orders by Taim and Demandred, and Demandred >seems not to know the M'Hael's orders. One mark. > >BUT Kisman believes that the two are different people, obviously. >Therefore, if Demandred is to be Taim, he must be using the Mirror of >Mists. However, if he is using an illusion to look like Taim, why did he >make the effect more difficult by "shaving" his beard? If it's an >illusion anyway, it would be foolish to look "a little like Taim." Just to play devil's advocate; Why assume when he was appearing as a Chosen -that- was his real appearance? If he wanted to deliver redundant orders to Kisman, to make sure they were carried out, he could have woven up a Dark Lord type guise to impress him and convince him he was a Chosen. He could be appearing as himself when masquerading as Taim. Not that I believe he was, but the Flinn evidence is -much- more damming. -- Steve From mhackell@princeton.edu Mon Nov 13 23:12:32 CST 2000 Article: 457885 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!cnn.Princeton.EDU!not-for-mail From: Matthew Hackell Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: Grading the Final (chapter): WH Spoilers Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 20:39:39 -0500 Organization: Princeton University Lines: 61 Message-ID: References: <8uphii$do3$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8upohn$551$1@solaria.cc.gatech.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: mhackell.student.princeton.edu X-Trace: cnn.Princeton.EDU 974166036 16236 140.180.145.102 (14 Nov 2000 01:40:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@cnn.Princeton.EDU NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Nov 2000 01:40:36 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.30 Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:457885 >From the book of Patrick Cotrona: > djacobstein@my-deja.com wrote: > : Spoiler Space > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > : On to the ideas: > : First, a loud Harrumph to those of you who say it > : is conclusively proven that Taim is not > : Demandred. I still like it from all the physical > : clues and jealousy asides, and if the only > : evidence is that he didn't recognize Flinn, then > : I'll buck the odds and stick with Taimandred. > > Unfortunately, it only takes one piece of counter-evidence > to disprove a theory, and Demandred not recognizing one of > Taim's first students *and* not knowing what kind of men > constitutes the BT qualifies as counter-evidence. > > Of course, I wouldn't except the Taimandred theory to die > out merely because of this, but I expect to see many, many > Taimmael theories begin to spring up like weeds after > the WH evidence is factored into the series entire. This being the Taim whose pet DFs go with Rand to chase Sammael out of what you have to admit is a pretty posh situation? Even if there is no direct counterevidence, this is pretty weak. Now, for that counterevidence: Sammael, in Arad Doman, says "Events to the south had Demandred's mark on them." Demandred, we find out in WH, is somehow involved in keeping an eye on Rand. So if Sammael is Taim, and Demandred is also watching Rand, and Osan'gar is ALSO at the BT...how does Sammael not know for sure Demandred's location, and isn't that a few too many Forsaken around anyway? I'm sure there's more, so can we kill off Taimmael quickly before it gets its legs? -- Matt Somehow, I don't think we've seen the last of Slobodan and his unholy legion of the undead From goodben@my-deja.com Mon Nov 13 23:24:17 CST 2000 Article: 457707 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail From: Ben Goodman Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: WH: Bad Guy Roundup (SPOILERS) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 19:52:56 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 71 Message-ID: <8upgql$d2h$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.20.109.245 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Nov 13 19:52:56 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; m18) Gecko/20000929 Netscape6/6.0b3 X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x55.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 24.20.109.245 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDgoodben Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:457707 In article , kor2@midway.uchicago.edu (P. Korda) wrote: > First in a series of WH commentary. Yeah, I know there is a lost of > that already going on, but I'm going to be socially irresponsible and > start another thread, in the hope that people will post their ideas in > MY threads, so I can find them easily. > > > SAMMEAL: > > Has returned. IMO, he is the mystery guy who Slayer speaks to in TAR, who > sent Slayer to kill Rand and Min in Far Madding. Reasoning: the mystery > guy must be a Forsaken, since only they can summon/command Slayer. He is > abnormally paranoid about keeping his identity and his actions secret. > I can't think of any reason for any or the other Forsaken, male or female, > to be so secretive about trying to kill Rand, especially since they all > just had a meeting where they talked about killing Rand. Sammy is back, > and is hiding out in TAR. Maybe he was the other person (besides Luc and > Temaile Kinderode) spying on the Wonder Girls in TAR. > I realize that this theory may be marginal, but it occurred to me as a possibility before WH and with the discovery that Demandred is not Taim, it appears to be somewhat more likely. Is Taim Sammael? It seems to me that there is a lot of circumstantial evidence syaing that he is and no real evidence against it. There may not be as much evidence as for pre-WH Taimandred, but I think the possibility is still there. Glancing through the Taimandred section of the FAQ: http://hugin.imat.com/jordan/1_dark/1.1_forsaken1/1.1.6_taimandred.html Points 1,2,3,3.5,4,7,8,8.5,9,11,13,14,16,17 can all apply to Sammael just as well as to Demandred. In addition there are the following points: a) Taim provides an easy way for Sammael to know if his "public" overture to Rand was accepted or not. It's hard to tell anything from Illian, but Taim showed up not long after the messanger and could have been waiting nearby. b) Sammael was absent from Illian quit a bit during LoC and aCoS. Part of this was due to scheming with Graendal and the Shaido. The rest of it could have been from playing Taim at the Black Tower. Taim could have used recruiting trips as an excuse to get away from the Black Tower. The King of Illian got independent enough to start reasserting himself, which means Sammael was probably away from Illian for days at a time. c) Sammael had to have had a bolt hole ready in case his aCoS activities in Illian and Shadar Logoth failed. d) Sammael told Graendal that he had a deal with Rand that ensured his safety when we know that Rand rejected the messanger. This could have been a reference to the deal Taim made. e) Sammael, if he's alive, would be the one Forsaken not under Moridin's thumb and therefore free to try and kill Rand as Taim did. If he happened to know how Dashiva was, this would make him shocked that Dashiva participated in the PoD atempt on Rand's life, since he knew the DO had proscribed it. f) The shock over Rand choosing Dashiva to accompany him could have been due to picking another Forsaken and the only Asha'man not directly under Taim's thumb. a-f are not proof in themselves (becuase they could be explained other ways also), but they lend support to the idea. Are there any more tidbits that support this idea or anything that refutes this it? Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. From raveller@my-deja.com Tue Nov 14 22:30:57 CST 2000 Article: 458171 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail From: James Huckaby Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: (SPOILERS) Demandred/Taim Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 16:05:39 GMT Organization: http://www.raveller.com Lines: 80 Message-ID: <8urnsb$5ml$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8uevje$c3t$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8up2v6$31$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3A10547D.22C2418@home.com> <8upmje$ih8$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3A10E2C1.9B866A96@SPAMBLOCKyahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 151.142.252.11 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Nov 14 16:05:39 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.75 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x72.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 151.142.252.11 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDraveller Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:458171 Lita wrote: > James Huckaby wrote: > > SPOILERS - v - v - v - v > > I think the best proof of the bad eyesight thing > > would be if the two Aes Sedai he saw as cute > > and drop-dead beautiful turned out in other PoV's > > to be ugly and plain respectively. > > The only problem with the "bad eyesight" theory is that > Demandred was holding saidin at the time. He *obviously* > could see everyone's faces. He could make out that Flinn had > a "fringe of white hair," so I don't doubt that he saw his > face as well. And Corele is the "wild-haired" AS. The third > is Beldeine, maybe? Both of whom have been described as > quite attractive. > > It also seemed to be more a case of not only *not* > recognizing Flinn, but surprise that an old "geezer" was an > Asha'man. Which makes sense, really, when you consider that > channellers don't really age. I re-read this again last night. From Cyndane's perspective she gives a distance at which her "saidar" enhanced sight sees the wrinkles on Alivia's face. About 100 paces. She had to sneak up on them to get that close. Demandred says he sees Flinn and the others ahead to the right behind stuff. There is no distance given nor any mention of his enhanced vision. It seems like Jordan goes out of his way to obscure them behind a tree and some rocks through the forest. Demandred sees them in his peripheral vision, turns, skims over the old man, files him under bald, white fringed, and crotchedy, and spends a little more time eyeing the girls. He prepares his attack, webs start coming at him, he makes his "Oh crap! An Asha'man!" realization, and he spends the rest of his time dodging splinters and fireballs and shooting over his shoulder. The argument "Taim != Demandred simply because he does not recognize Flinn" is suspect because our witness is suspect. Jordan is meticulous in describing what everyone sees, if Demandred had the close-up zoom on the trio, it would be likely that Jordan would have painstakingly and annoyingly pointed it out. I will point out the irony involved in the surprise of there being an Asha'man there. Demandred for a few paragraphs before was going on about how he was always prepared to expect the unexpected. He is a whole lot smarter in his mind than in actuality. -- James "Waffling until Tarmon Gaidon" Huckaby james@raveller.com http://www.raveller.com "Share our perfect opinion, it's the ideal ideal." Built to Spill - Sick & Wrong Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. From wassermb@law.georgetown.edu Tue Nov 14 22:31:47 CST 2000 Article: 458335 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!law4207.law4.georgetown.EDU!not-for-mail From: wassermb@law.georgetown.edu (Bryon T Wasserman) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: (SPOILERS) Demandred/Taim Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 02:35:12 GMT Lines: 61 Message-ID: <3a11f1de.3542073@News.CIS.DFN.DE> References: <8uevje$c3t$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8up2v6$31$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3A10547D.22C2418@home.com> <3A1063CB.E99A38D3@home.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: law4207.law4.georgetown.edu (141.161.178.207) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 974244479 2942164 141.161.178.207 (16 [60728]) X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:458335 On Mon, 13 Nov 2000 21:05:30 -0500, Matthew Hackell wrote: >From the book of Joseph Slonimsky: >> >> >> Matthew Hackell wrote: >> >> > From the book of Joseph Slonimsky: >> > > > >> > But we know he doesn't look like Taim, which means that he HAS to use >> > illusion to run the Black Tower. Do we honestly believe that he's never >> > touched a single Asha'man in his time running the BT? Also, is he so >> > poor an illusionist that he had to claim he "shaved his beard" to be >> > able to even remotely look like Taim? There's no way the Taim facade is >> > an illusion--he's either a proxy or an ex-proxy who's striking out on >> > his own. >> >> Ugh. This argument was used and disproven a very long time ago. > >No. It was ignored because of the possibility that Taim resembled >Demandred closely enough that the lack of beard would fool anyone who >needed fooling. It assumed that Demandred was not using illusion to >resemble Taim. Since we now know he does not resemble Taim, the only >choices are 1) He uses illusion, or 2) He isn't Taim. Matt, I agree with you on the general point regarding Taim not Demandred. However, since I think that it's still a valid point, and was one of the things that made me adhere to this theory before it was disproved in the most recent book, I'll make the case regarding the beard. 1.Sammael, while observing Graendal as The Old Woman, in LoC notes that someone touching her face would feel an unwrinkled face. He goes on to note that illusions wouldn't stand up to close physical scrutiny. How this stands up to Lanfear being someone four times as large is unclear to me, but I assume that he knows what he's talking about. 2.Demandred, not being able to grow a beard, or not wanting to, has to appear as a clean shaven Taim, because someone touching his beard would notice that there was no beard. Either that or Demandred looks sufficiently different from Taim that he cannot make a completely convincing illusion which will stand up to physical scrutiny. It's worth noting that minor changes can stand up to close scrutiny. Lanfear, as Selene, appears anxious for some canoodling, and isn't particularly worried about Rand seeing through her illusion. That's the beard case. To be honest, it was one of the little things that held no strong weight, but had the flavor of an RJ hint. Why put in such a detail? Anyway, it's moot now. Bryon Wasserman wassermb@law.georgetown.edu From slonimsky4938@home.com Tue Nov 14 22:48:30 CST 2000 Article: 458449 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!newsfeed.stanford.edu!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news2.rdc1.on.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail From: "Joseph" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Taim/Demandred, something we missed (WH spoilers) Lines: 66 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: <2GnQ5.61156$n9.1516970@news2.rdc1.on.home.com> Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 03:46:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.157.73.197 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news2.rdc1.on.home.com 974259966 24.157.73.197 (Tue, 14 Nov 2000 19:46:06 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 19:46:06 PST Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:458449 spoiler space..... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... Basically I am proposing a scenario that could explain the Demandred/Flinn scene in favour of Taimendred. Now, assuming that Taim = Demandred, we know Taim found out from Rand at the end of PoD that Rand would be going off alone for a while (I don't think Min counts for anything with Taim) And if Taim = Demandred, he would know about Rands thinking about cleansing Saidin, from when Rand let it slip in PoD in the prescence of Dashiva/Aginor. (or from the Forsaken Social) And if Taim = Demandred, his spies in Cairhein would tell him that 'Rands' three Asha'man did indeed stay behind. Next, if Taim = Demandred, he would know in his capacity as Taim where all the Asha'man were, or at least where they were supposed to be and what they were supposed to be doing. So armed with this prejudicial knowledge, Demandred comes to Shadar Logoth, and so when he gets a breif, partially obstructed view of an old guy between two 'beautiful' or 'stunning' women, he's wondering 'what are these people doing here, and why is there a limping old guy?' But since he _knows_ from his information, that all the Asha'man are accounted for, and Rand went off by himself (and he probably knows Rand doesn't trust Aes Sedai) he overlooks the fact that the two women have Aes Sedai faces, and he also overlooks the fact that he knows the man. And after that one breif look Demandred gets, Flinn starts attacking and there are exploding/burning trees obstructing any view. This also explains somewhat why our self-proclaimed genuious Demandred would dismiss Anyone walking around close to where the Choaden Kal is being used. Why would Demandred suspect them, when he knew better. (oh, and can anyone think how this might tie in with Taimendred puting the three good Asha'man on the traitors list? I have this feeling that it might work into this theory somehow..) -Krax From tsignus@aol.com Tue Nov 14 23:04:14 CST 2000 Article: 458458 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!newsfeed.stanford.edu!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Lines: 86 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: tsignus@aol.com (TSignus) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Date: 15 Nov 2000 04:04:46 GMT References: <3A1204E2.DE6BA565@hoopyfroods.org> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Winter's Heart (A Review and Thoughts) Message-ID: <20001114230446.14191.00001777@ng-cs1.aol.com> Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:458458 SPOILERS >Taim described Flinn (and a few other Asha'man) to Rand as deserters, >like Gedwyn et al. He had no reason to believe any Asha'man were with >Rand, least of all those who he believed Rand now considered traitors. No, Taim put Flinn, Hopwil, and Narishma on the list specifically because they were loyal to Rand. He knew they weren't traitors since he ordered the real traitors and he knew that Rand didn't think them to be traitors. Rand specifically said that Dashiva was the traitor and that he specifically wanted Dashiva dead at the end of PoD, but he never gave Taim any indication that the others are traitors. Also, Flinn was the FIRST Asha'man that Taim trained and he was the one that would initially be left in charge at the Black Tower when Taim went recruiting. Demandred saw the group clearly enough to rate the attractiveness of the women and not only did he fail to recognize Flinn, but he was shocked that an old man with a limp could even be an Asha'man. If Demandred was Taim, then he should have thought something like: "Well, only one Asha'man (who is the most talented Healer among the Asha'man, and who was the first Asha'man that I trained, whom I later framed for treason despite the fact that he is loyal to Rand) is an old man with a limp." Short of it being one of Taim's fearsome foursome (Gedwyn et. all), there is really no Asha'man that he would be more likely to recognize than Flinn. -TS From tsignus@aol.com Tue Nov 14 23:24:53 CST 2000 Article: 458488 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!logbridge.uoregon.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Lines: 69 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: tsignus@aol.com (TSignus) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Date: 15 Nov 2000 05:20:26 GMT References: <2GnQ5.61156$n9.1516970@news2.rdc1.on.home.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Taim/Demandred, something we missed (WH spoilers) Message-ID: <20001115002026.14191.00001805@ng-cs1.aol.com> Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:458488 SPOILERS >And if Taim = Demandred, his spies in Cairhein would tell him that 'Rands' >three Asha'man did indeed stay behind. > >Next, if Taim = Demandred, he would know in his capacity as Taim where all >the Asha'man were, or at least where they were supposed to be and what they >were supposed to be doing. > If Taim did have spies watching them in Cairhien, then he would know that they'd disappeared from Cairhien at least a week before the cleansing of the taint since Cadsuane and company were in Far Madding for about a week before they finally left with Rand. If Taim had spies, they would have reported this which would have to get him wondering where Flinn and the other Asha'man are. Therefore, he should be even MORE likely to recognize Flinn during the cleansing because he would be keeping an eye out for him. -TS From wassermb@law.georgetown.edu Tue Nov 14 23:28:59 CST 2000 Article: 457259 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!logbridge.uoregon.edu!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!law4207.law4.georgetown.EDU!not-for-mail From: wassermb@law.georgetown.edu (Bryon T Wasserman) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Taim, Demandred, and the Fearsome Foursome(Spoilers) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 01:58:32 GMT Lines: 124 Message-ID: <3a0f4abe.678359@News.CIS.DFN.DE> NNTP-Posting-Host: law4207.law4.georgetown.edu (141.161.178.207) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 974069492 2456920 141.161.178.207 (16 [60728]) X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:457259 Spoilers * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Well, a few things have been resolved, but as Don Henly says, "The more I know, the less I understand". I'm trying to map out the relationship between Taim, Demandred, and the Fearsome Foursome(Gedwyn, Torval, Kinsman, and Rochaid. A.TAIM First things first, we're pretty sure that Taim isn't Demandred. Beyond the issue of the multiple sets of kill orders, during the final chapter where the DO's elite turn into the keystone cops, Demandred is close enough to to judge the attractiveness of the two AS with Flinn, but doesn't recognize the man who was Taim's first student and TA during the early days of the BT. I find this really annoying, since I was certain of the Taimandred theory. There's a whole bunch of stuff that just doesn't make sense to me now. IS HE A DARKFRIEND/DREADLORD? This of course, brings up the question of who/what Taim is. While things seem to lean in that direction, I'm not really sold on his being a darkfriend. The most telling point in favor of his being a darkfriend is the fact that his four primary lieutenants all seem to be darkfriends. Additionally, that would explain some of the things that we had previously credited to his being Demandred: his lack of taint succeptability, his age, the breadth of his knowledge, etc. OTOH, there are alternative explanantions for most of these. On the side of not being a darkfriend, I find it strange that the Forsaken would allow one of their subordinates to have the type of power that Taim has. Considering the way that things work with them, I don't see them allowing a subordinate as powerful and competent as Taim to have control of a private army of channelers. I also wonder why he has such friction with Dashiva. I'd presume that Dashiva would try to assert himself as one of the Chosen, or at the very least, that Taim would have been ordered by his superiors to give him a wide berth. For that matter, if Taim's in their pocket, why send Dashiva to the BT at all? Finally, and most importantly, if Taim's one of the gang, why would Demandred be worried that the Foursome might be discovered by him? I guess that the evidence leans towards him being a DF, but it feels wrong on a gut level. B.THE FEARSOME FOURSOME I know that I'm going out of order, but this is more interesting to me. We have been waiting all series to see some male dreadlords, and at last they show up. As far as I can tell, we he have three main possibilities for how they came to be. 1. They have always been dreadlords. When the Ashaman came about, they snuck in as new applicants 2.When the BT tower started to form, the various local chapters of the International Darkfriends Unions had everyone apply and the Fearsome Foursome were the ones to pass the tests. 3. As with the WT tower, likely candidates were approached discreetly and offered a chance to serve the DO. This would be especially appealing to people facing the prospect of going insane. I'm guessing that it's some combination of #2 and #3 . A lot of their behavior, especially in LoC reeks of insignificant people who have suddenly been given power and authority, rather than people who had it for a while. I have trouble seeing a longtime dreadlord shaking a new guy down for his coat. Maybe someone can find a quote for me, but I seem to remember a scene where Rand tells several Ashaman that he's going to clear the taint. Dashiva, scoffs at the notion, but the other Ashaman, including one of the foursome, seems inrterested. This might mean that normal dreadlords don't automatically get Taint protection. As with Taim, I'm not sure how Dashiva fits in. Kisman seems to think of him as one his comrades, but not as a superior. On a side note, does anybody find it weird that the Forsaken sent four channelers to kill Rand in a city where no one can channel? Wouldn't grey men or a few hundred Myrrdaal work better? C. DEMANDRED I have no idea where/who/what Demandred is. We know that Graendal thinks that he should be watching Rand. We also have her earlier comment that Demandred may have been involved with Rand's kidnapping, "despite how it ended". We also know that he either hasn't seen Flinn, or hasn't seen him enough to recognize him. Some people have suggested that he has been managing Taim from behind the scenes, but that brings into question of why he was oblivious of Taim's assassination attempt. Bryon Wasserman wassermb@law.georgetown.edu From slonimsky4938@home.com Thu Nov 16 21:10:32 CST 2000 Article: 458759 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!enews.sgi.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news2.rdc1.on.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A12F32E.6090709@home.com> From: Joseph Slonimsky User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001108 Netscape6/6.0 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: Taim-Demandred-RJ Toying with Us. (long & WH Spoilers) References: <3A0E34B5.13652ADD@home.com> <3a0f4acc.692514@News.CIS.DFN.DE> <3a0f664a.15541255@news.mindspring.com> <3A0F7C55.21DCE233@home.com> <8uoq7o$ofm$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3A1058C3.1E907A5B@home.com> <8ursf5$a1k$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 110 Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 20:35:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.157.73.197 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news2.rdc1.on.home.com 974320544 24.157.73.197 (Wed, 15 Nov 2000 12:35:44 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 12:35:44 PST Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:458759 Spoiler space . . . . . . . . . . . . I now think that the scene where Flinn meets Demandred not only doesn't disprove the Taimendred thoery, it strengthens it. No, I am not delusional or anything... let me explain: We know from the Forsaken Social that in Greandal's words "And you've just been hoping to blunder into him! She screamed at Demandred. Hoping that someone will find [Rand] for you!" Therefore, Fact 1) we know that Demandred, and his minions have been looking for Rand. We know from Rands perspective that he has been leaving clues behind in different cities. Little things, none of which alone, would be enough to find out where Rand is, but put together point to Far Madding. Fact 2) to find out Rand went to Far Madding you need to be able to Travel. (thanks go out to pam for pointing this out) Well, that narrows things down a bit. I think there's little doubt that it was Asha'man that did the looking, in fact it was almost certainly the fab four. We even have a clue that points to this. Kisman thinks how he and Rochaid were supposed to wait until the others arrived. (Gedwyne and Torval). One very good reason for them to split up is so they could search faster. We also know the fab four are darkfriends, and that Demandred has been speaking to them. Therefore, I can only conclude that the fab four are the minions that Greandal spoke off. So whats the point you may be asking.. Well, we know from Greandal's perspective that Demandred has the fab four searching and assume for a moment Greandal knows that Demandred is Taim (the next paragraph proves it by implication) Well, I find it very interesting that Kisman thinks how TAIM said that Far Madding would be their last chance. It seems Taim and Demandred are acting as one... like say [drumrole]... a Taimendred would! Now for the second point as to why the Flinn/Demandred meeting strengthens the Taimendred theory. In another thread, I pointed out how, if Taim=Demandred, he would know where all the Asha'man were, he would know Rand told him he was going off alone for a while, his spies would tell him that Rand did indeed leave the Asha'man behind, and he would assume that the Asha'man dissapearing from the palace was becuase they were being hunted becuase Taim/Demandred put them on the traitor's tree. I concluded that becuase Demandred 'knew' Rand would have no channelers with him, he didn't check their faces (and therefore didn't recognize the Aes Sedai distinctiveness of the two women) to see if they were channelers, becuase he knew better. I just reread the last chapter and found some surpriseing supporting evidence for this theory. When Demandred steps into Shadar Logoth, he feels the explosions made of Saidin coming toward him and conculdes that _Rand_ has a new device that lets him feel channeling from far off.(implying that Rand diverted abit >from the mega sa'angreal for the attack) Now contrast this with Osan'gar who gets away from the same type of explosions and _immediatly_ concludes that there are Asha'man present and Callandor as well. Demandred was working under a false assumption (which could only happen if he were also Mazrim Taim) which explains: Why Demandred thinks it was Rand that attacked him. Why Demandred doesn't realize there are Asha'man around when Osan'gar does. Why Demandred doesn't realize the women with Flinn are Aes Sedai - he doesn't check their faces. Why Demandred doesn't recognize Flinn is an Asha'man - he knows better and doesn't check his face (and even if Demendred!=Taim, he should have recogized Flinn if he was set to spy on Rand, and why would he check Flinn's face if he didn't check the Aes Sedai's closely enought to realize they were AS?? and for the last time, Flinn was not wearing Asha'man clothes, he was wearing a plain cloak!!) Why Demandred was surprised that any of the three could channel. -Krax Joseph Slonimsky From slonimsky4938@home.com Thu Nov 16 21:18:00 CST 2000 Article: 458935 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news2.rdc1.on.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A13808F.5020400@home.com> From: Joseph Slonimsky User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001108 Netscape6/6.0 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Taim and Demandred, a mirror image (WH spoilers) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 152 Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 06:38:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.157.73.197 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news2.rdc1.on.home.com 974356737 24.157.73.197 (Wed, 15 Nov 2000 22:38:57 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 22:38:57 PST Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:458935 Some spoiler space.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Looking over what we know of Taim's and Demandred's actions since the end of PoD, I found that their actions seem like mirror images.. First we know that Mazrim Taim ordered the DF asha'man (Gedwyne, Rochaid) to attack Rand at the end of PoD. We also know that Demandred thinks how 'those blind fools' failed in Cairhein. Thats as opposed to succeeding, therefore the attack had Forsaken sanction (with Dashiva'gar there, this should be rather obvious) However, the way Demandred thinks about it, seems to imply that he may have been involved. We know from the Forsaken Social that in Greandal's words "And you've just been hoping to blunder into him! She screamed at Demandred. Hoping that someone will find [Rand] for you!" So we know that Demandred, and his minions have been looking for Rand. We know from Rands perspective that he has been leaving clues behind in different cities. Little things, none of which alone, would be enough to find out where Rand is, but put together point to Far Madding. So to find out Rand went to Far Madding you need to be able to Travel. Well, that narrows things down a bit. I think there's little doubt that it was the DF Asha'man that did the looking. We even have a clue that points to this. Kisman thinks how he and Rochaid were supposed to wait until the others arrived. (Gedwyne and Torval). One very good reason for them to split up is so they could search faster. We know that the Four Asha'man who were Taims leuitenants are Darkfriends, and that Demandred has been speaking to them. Therefore, I can only conclude that Gedwyne, Rochaid, Torval and Kisman are the minions that Greandal spoke off. Therefore, it's very interesting to note that it is Taim and not Demandred that tells the DF Asha'man that Far Madding will be their last chance. This means Taim knew about the search. Yet the searchers were DF Asha'man, and thus also Demandreds minions. Yet if Taim knew about the search, we can be almost certain that he ordered it. Quite frankly, at this point Taim and Demandred are acting like a mirror image. Both are involved (or at least know of) the attack on Rand in PoD. It's Taims orders, yet they are DF Asha'man on a Forsaken sanctioned mission. Both are involved in searching for Rand, with the DF Asha'man again apparently working for both. (although not knowing it) Now onto Kismans orders. First Taim and then Demandred order Kisman to Far Madding. Since Mazrim Taim publicly put the four DF Asha'man on the traitors list, he wanted to stop their assosiation with the Taim persona. Why take the risk if the Demandred persona is there? Also, do you honestly think that Taim would willingly give up as useful a tool as four 'loyal' Asha'man by telling Kisman "Far Madding was to be their last chance; [Taim] had made that as plain as polished brass". So, Taim and Demandred act like a mirror image again. Taim saying that if the DF Asha'man screw up, they're dead, and Demandred says don't let anyone find you, and specifically mentions the M'heal. Now that the seperate orders have been explained, the fact that both Taim and Demandred both say kill Al'thor in Far Madding is yet another instance of a mirror image action. Finally if you think of the assumptions that Demandred would be carrying around as a result of Taims knowledge, like Rand saying he'd be going of alone for awhile, knowing where all the Asha'man are (he would know Rands loyal three were left behind from spies, and then assume they hid becuase they were being hunted becuase he put them on the traitors list) Therefore it explains: Why Demandred thinks it was Rand that attacked him, and not Asha'man Why Demandred doesn't realize there are Asha'man around when Osan'gar does. Why Demandred doesn't realize the women with Flinn are Aes Sedai - he doesn't check their faces. Why Demandred doesn't recognize Flinn is an Asha'man - he knows better and doesn't check Flinns face (and even if Demendred!=Taim, he should have recogized Flinn if he was set to spy on Rand, and why would he check Flinn's face if he didn't check the Aes Sedai's closely enought to realize they were AS?? and for the last time, Flinn was not wearing Asha'man clothes, he was wearing a plain cloak!!) Why Demandred was surprised that any of the three could channel. -Krax Joseph Slonimsky in favour of the Demandred persona, it's apparent that both Taim and Demandred work at it. Demandred finishes off this break by specifically mentioning the M'heal Here's the scenario if my theory is correct: Taimendred kept his dual identity a secret from all the Darkfriend Asha'man. If one was caught, His persona of Taim would have no warning when Rand came for him. Taim/Demandred recruited the DF Asha'man in TAR as it's safer to do so there anyway, (yet remember this is _much_ harder if you are physically far away, and you have to know who your target is as well) Next, the forsaken are forced to act becuase of Rands plans to cleanse Saidin. Taim sends his leuitenants out to get Rand. When they fail, note that he is _as angry at the fact they failed as that they reveiled themselves_. In fact, I'm willing to bet Demandred would have killed them if he hadn't needed them so much to find Rand. So Taim orders them to find Rand, while puting the three Asha'man loyal to Rand on the traitors list becuase as Demandred, he knows that as soon as Rand is found, he will be dealt with, and he doesn't want Rand to have any support at that point. Then the DF Asha'man come back, having found the clues, and Taim (who now wants to break their relationship with the Taim side of the persona, becuase while there are a few good reasons to do this, when you get right down to it, it must be getting confusing keeping track of it all) tells them that Far Madding will be their last chance. Then, a bit later, he talks to the DF Asha'man again as Demandred. Armed with the knowledge that they went to Far Madding from his Taim persona, he tells them to From janet@nm.net Fri Nov 17 11:17:02 CST 2000 Article: 459481 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!logbridge.uoregon.edu!feeder.nmix.net!reader.nmix.net!janet From: janet@nm.net (Janet Rolsma) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: Winter's Heart (A Review and Thoughts) Date: 17 Nov 2000 15:34:38 GMT Organization: NMIX Lines: 60 Message-ID: References: <3A1204E2.DE6BA565@hoopyfroods.org> <8uue3j$csv$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3A12C86A.CF685E9@hoopyfroods.org> Reply-To: janet@nm.net NNTP-Posting-Host: dhcp184.staff.osogrande.net X-Trace: reader.nmix.net 974475278 15875 129.121.5.184 (17 Nov 2000 15:34:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@nmix.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Nov 2000 15:34:38 GMT User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:459481 On 17 Nov 2000 06:35:00 GMT, Leigh D. Butler wrote: >Apropos of nothing, on Thu, 16 Nov 2000 21:18:32 GMT P. Korda wrote: >> >> > > > SPOILERS >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> > >> But, while I have your attention, how's about you give me a better >> explanation of Taim's "so-called Aiel" remark than the extremely weak >> one that we have in the FAQ right now. > >I personally think that this statement was RJ getting a little too >enthused in his campaign of misdirection. > How about too much time spent hanging around the Forsaken? I know that I tend to pick up phrases from people I'm talking to for any length of time. If he spent a lot of time with Ishy or Demandred he may have unconciously started emulating their wording. Personally, I'm of the Taim is just Taim but he's an underling of Demandred who has delusions of offing the boss and becoming a New Age Forsaken[1]. That's why he would be giving orders to Kisman separately from what Demandred does and explain why he uses phrases such as "So-called Aiel". Or maybe he just knows the history of the Aiel somehow. >Seriously Looney Theory: Maybe Taim knows the Song, and the lyrics >reveal what we already know - that the Tinkers are actually Aiel. Like this. Janet [1] You know what I mean. He's got crystals in the bedroom and aromatherapy candles throughout the rest of the house. And he only believes in using All-Natural and Organic ingredients in his poison. -- Sorry. It's the proximity to Santa Fe corrupting my mind.