From kor2@midway.uchicago.edu Thu Jun 24 14:54:29 CDT 1999 Article: 350321 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:350321 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!not-for-mail From: kor2@midway.uchicago.edu (P. Korda) Subject: I know who Tamyrlin is! X-Nntp-Posting-Host: howard-nfs.uchicago.edu Message-ID: Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator) Organization: *sniff* Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 22:06:49 GMT I read a post on rasfw today which sparked this connection. Tamyrlin = Tamerlane Tamerlane was a Mongal conqueror, who lived from 1336-1405. He conquered quite a bit of southwest Asia. Here is a blurb: http://www.infopls.com/ce5/CE050735.html Edgar Allan Poe wrote a poem called "Tamerlane": http://www.eapoe.org/works/poems/tamerlnh.htm I didn't find anything about a ring... -pam From waldo@webspan.net Fri Nov 10 17:04:54 CST 2000 Article: 454882 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.mesh.ad.jp!sjc1.nntp.concentric.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!global-news-master From: "Richard M. Boye'" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Winter's Heart - Boye's Random Thoughts (Spoilers) Date: 08 Nov 2000 01:21:20 GMT Organization: If You Need Ask, You Need Not Know Lines: 108 Message-ID: <3A08AAA0.10F1@webspan.net> Reply-To: waldo@webspan.net NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.36.125.210 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win95; I) Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:454882 Admittedly, I've been skimming the book. Don't ask, but I always do this with WOT books, before I actually set down to read it. I've been noticing things that I thought I'd like to comment on. Spoilerage by the tonnage. S * P * O * I * L * E * R * S In no particular order... RJ seems to be having a fine time of reintroducing characters that he brought on screen as seeming bit-players, books ago. For example, Selande was first brought about as an ingenue that Colavaere thought to have seduce Rand, but latter she becomes the leader of Cha Faile. Speaking of Cha Faile, another of them, this one a Tairen ladyling, Medore. She was mentioned -way- back in tDR as the girl that one of Mat's lordling drinking buddies wants to marry. In WH, she shows up as a member of Cha Faile. Btw, there appears to be no particular regimental code for Cha Faile's dress. Medore, a Tairen, is wearing a Tairen style coat with puffed, striped sleeves, whereas the Cairhienin wear the dark coats with stripes of rank. Moving on.... The Lieutenant-Commander of Elayne's bodyguard, Caseille, is described as an Arafellin with bells in her hair. Guess what? We've met her before also. Another set of random thoughts. The pale-skinned damane/Aes Sedai in Suroth's train is -not- Temaile Kinderode. She's still unleashed. I'm still trying to figure out who it is, but I suspect it was one of the original Aes Sedai captured, and I suspect it is Rhyma/Pura. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Tuon's collection of damane are certainly interesting. One of which, I guess, is the Aes Sedai that Bayle Domon saw being captured by Rhyma, and was shipped back to Seandar. Moiraine mentions two of her sisters that she was unable to rescue. Also among the Tuon Collection are twin sisters. RJ certainly seems to be beating us over the head with the notion that channeling is a genetic trait. Speaking of Tuon and her entourage - yes, Semirhage hs finally made her appearance. There seems little doubt that Anath=Semirhage. Lastly, in reference to Seanchan, in the past RJ has mentioned that they contain cultural elements of China and Japan, as well as places like Egypt and even the Byzantine Empire. I was never able to catch some of what he was speaking about. Now, the Japanese references as well as the Chinese have always been easy to spot, and the Egyptian ones were present if more oblique (mostly the fashions) but yeesh, they really appear is this book. The most obvious example is the name of Tuon's former truthspeaker "Neferi." Nefertiti, anyone? Meanwhile, there are plenty of Byzantine/Greek ones as well - for example, Tuon's personal dresser is named "Selucia," which seems to be a take-off on the Selecuid kingdom, a former region of Turkey and the Black Sea that was founded by one of Alexander the Great's Greek generals. Also, one of Tuon's names is "Kore," an another name for Persephone, and which means "Daughter" or "Maiden." Also, I'm loving the Faile icon. More to follow, in perhaps a more detailed fashion. -- Richard M. Boye' * waldo@webspan.net http://www.webspan.net/~waldo/ UIN:9021244 "Some men lead lives of quiet desperation. My desperation makes a pathetic whining sound." From david@evildeath.madasafish.com Sat Nov 11 00:31:26 CST 2000 Article: 455802 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail From: "David Chapman" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: Bells of St Clemence (Minor Spoiler) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 19:23:04 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Reply-To: "David Chapman" References: <8uepfb$6a8$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8ueq31$r5v$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 47 Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:455802 "Jennifer Winters" wrote in message news:8ueq31$r5v$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu... > "Young Blandford" wrote: > > > > > "Here comes an Aelfinn to steal all your bread, > > Here comes an Ogier to chop off your head." > > > > This sounds very similar to the last two lines > > of "Bells of St Clemence." > > > > ObCurious:What are the complete lyrics to that? >From memory, so forgive any minor slips: "Oranges and lemons", say the bells of St Clements [1] "You owe me five farthings", say the bells of St Martin's "When will you pay me", say the bells of Old Bailey "When I am rich", say the bells of Shoreditch "When will that be?", say the bells of Stepney "I'm sure I don't know", says the great bell of Bow Here comes a candle to light you to bed And here comes a chopper to chop off your head.[2] [1] Which is why the drink made of orange juice and lemonade is called a St Clements. [2] There's a children's game that goes along with the rhyme. Two players stand with their hands linked and their arms raised, singing the rhyme. Meanwhile, the rest of the players duck their heads to walk through the arch created by the arms. On the word "head", the children making the arch lower their arms, and whoever is caught in the arch is out. What happens then varies from region to region; where I grew up, the last two players in got to be the arch. Of course, these days it isn't played much because kids would rather having fuckin' Pokemon. -- "I used to be a pacifist, after a fashion." "What happened?" "Expediency." From brj02@hotmail.com Sat Nov 11 00:31:51 CST 2000 Article: 455676 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.tele.dk!130.133.1.3!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!securid.computasoft.COM!not-for-mail From: Rian Johnson Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: WH: Bells of St Clemence (Minor Spoiler) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 18:26:57 -0000 Organization: Nope Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <8uepfb$6a8$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Reply-To: brj02@hotmail.com NNTP-Posting-Host: securid.computasoft.com (193.122.14.2) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 973794462 1752515 193.122.14.2 (16 [59236]) X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.30 Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:455676 In article <8uepfb$6a8$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, youngblandford@hotmail.com says... > "Here comes an Aelfinn to steal all your bread, > Here comes an Ogier to chop off your head." > > This sounds very similar to the last two lines > of "Bells of St Clemence." eh hem--for the uninitiated: http://ingeb.org/songs/gaygoupa.html -- Rian From waldo@webspan.net Sun Nov 12 17:56:33 CST 2000 Article: 456585 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!logbridge.uoregon.edu!netnews.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail From: waldo@webspan.net Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: New Names in Winter's Heart (spoilers) (FAQ worthy?) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 13:25:04 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 68 Message-ID: <8ujhbd$unf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.1.222.254 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Nov 11 13:25:04 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 4.01; Windows NT) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 FIREWALL, 1.0 x60.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 216.1.222.254 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDrmboye Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:456585 This is a can o'spoilers, so beware. Okay, that should be enough space. First of all, this one twigged my mind when I first read it, yet I neglected to mention it. Semirhage's alias "Anath" is in perfect keeping with RJ's tradition of using vaguely sinister mythological references to name the Forsaken. Anath was a Canaanite deity, a war goddess, a goddess who was believed to insatiable in her lusts. She was also linked to Baal(Bhaal?) as his sister. Now, Bhaal was one of the Canaanite pantheon that the Hebrews had such a fun time demonizing. However, those fun Canaanites worshiped Baal by sacrificing children to him, so he didn't need much villifying anyway. Needless to say, in the Hebraic pantheon, the gods of Canaan were Bad News(tm). It's also neat that the name "Anath" fits with the Seanchan naming pattern (ala "Suroth") Birgitte's new surname "Trehelion" also catches my memory, but I'm not sure if there is any other signifigance to it besides simply "Helios." I'm not sure how the Sun-god fits Birgitte in anyway with her accompanying mythos. Except the archer thing (Helios became syncratized with Apollo, who was the sister of Artemis, the archer with the silver arrows, but that's quite a stretch). Tuon's dresser-jackbooted thug "Selucia" seems an effort on RJ's part to interweave a Greek flavor with the Seanchan (Seluciud Kingdom). Tuon's middle name was lifted right out of Greek mythology. "Kore" was another name for Persephone, and means "daughter." It's interesting to note that Persephone was abducted by Hades, who later became her husband. Nice one. RMB Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. From erikmilosevic@yahoo.com Sun Nov 12 17:59:49 CST 2000 Article: 456662 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail From: "Erik Milosevic" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan References: <8ujhbd$unf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: New Names in Winter's Heart (spoilers) (FAQ worthy?) Lines: 78 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 18:57:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.191.97.163 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 973969042 24.191.97.163 (Sat, 11 Nov 2000 13:57:22 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 13:57:22 EST Organization: Optimum Online Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:456662 wrote in message news:8ujhbd$unf$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > This is a can o'spoilers, so beware. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Okay, that should be enough space. > > First of all, this one twigged my mind when I first read it, yet I > neglected to mention it. > > Semirhage's alias "Anath" is in perfect keeping with RJ's tradition of > using vaguely sinister mythological references to name the Forsaken. > > Anath was a Canaanite deity, a war goddess, a goddess who was believed > to insatiable in her lusts. She was also linked to Baal(Bhaal?) as his > sister. Now, Bhaal was one of the Canaanite pantheon that the Hebrews > had such a fun time demonizing. However, those fun Canaanites worshiped > Baal by sacrificing children to him, so he didn't need much villifying > anyway. > > Needless to say, in the Hebraic pantheon, the gods of Canaan were Bad > News(tm). > > It's also neat that the name "Anath" fits with the Seanchan naming > pattern (ala "Suroth") > > Birgitte's new surname "Trehelion" also catches my memory, but I'm not > sure if there is any other signifigance to it besides simply "Helios." > I'm not sure how the Sun-god fits Birgitte in anyway with her > accompanying mythos. Except the archer thing (Helios became syncratized > with Apollo, who was the sister of Artemis, the archer with the silver > arrows, but that's quite a stretch). Apollo was the god of archery. > > Tuon's dresser-jackbooted thug "Selucia" seems an effort on RJ's part > to interweave a Greek flavor with the Seanchan (Seluciud Kingdom). > > Tuon's middle name was lifted right out of Greek mythology. "Kore" was > another name for Persephone, and means "daughter." It's interesting to > note that Persephone was abducted by Hades, who later became her > husband. > > Nice one. > I agree. > > RMB > > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. From waldo@webspan.net Sun Nov 12 18:00:30 CST 2000 Article: 456851 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.mesh.ad.jp!sjc1.nntp.concentric.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!global-news-master From: "Richard M. Boye'" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Daughter of Nine Moon's Sigil (was New Names - still spoilers) Date: 12 Nov 2000 00:31:49 GMT Organization: If You Need Ask, You Need Not Know Lines: 79 Message-ID: <3A0DE507.445D@webspan.net> References: <8ujhbd$unf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Reply-To: waldo@webspan.net NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.36.124.162 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win95; I) Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:456851 Erik Milosevic wrote: > > wrote in message news:8ujhbd$unf$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > This is a can o'spoilers, so beware. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Okay, that should be enough space. [...] > > Birgitte's new surname "Trehelion" also catches my memory, but I'm not > > sure if there is any other signifigance to it besides simply "Helios." > > I'm not sure how the Sun-god fits Birgitte in anyway with her > > accompanying mythos. Except the archer thing (Helios became syncratized > > with Apollo, who was the sister of Artemis, the archer with the silver > > arrows, but that's quite a stretch). > > Apollo was the god of archery. Hmmm. That might work. It's still pretty tenuous, though. > > Tuon's middle name was lifted right out of Greek mythology. "Kore" was > > another name for Persephone, and means "daughter." It's interesting to > > note that Persephone was abducted by Hades, who later became her > > husband. > > > > Nice one. > I agree. Meanwhile, we were also talking about Tuon, I was thinking about her personal sigil which is an ancient war-cart being pulled by golden lions, and was discussing it with Elio and his fiancee, and we have picked up on some intriguing references. First of all, the Norse goddess Freya was known to have a wagon driven by cats, and Freya was also known to have a cape/cloak/mantle that allowd her to assume the guise of a bird of prey. This would work well if Freya was known to adopt a hawk, for the golden hawk is the symbol of the Seanchan Imperial family, yet it seems that Freya was more likely to be traipsing about as a -falcon. Oh well. There are other references, though. Artemis/Diana had a chariot pulled by lions, and of course, Artemis/Diana were goddesses of the -moon- so that links up. However, the final reference that we think works well is that of the titaness Rhea, mother of the the Olympians, and wife to Cronus. She was commonly shown as driving a chariot pulled by lions. As a fertility deity, she was also linked to the moon. -- Richard M. Boye' * waldo@webspan.net http://www.webspan.net/~waldo/ UIN:9021244 "Some men lead lives of quiet desperation. My desperation makes a pathetic whining sound." From mhackell@princeton.edu Sun Nov 12 18:01:02 CST 2000 Article: 456900 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!cnn.Princeton.EDU!not-for-mail From: Matthew Hackell Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: Daughter of Nine Moon's Sigil (was New Names - still spoilers) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 20:46:51 -0500 Organization: Princeton University Lines: 88 Message-ID: References: <8ujhbd$unf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3A0DE507.445D@webspan.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: mhackell.student.princeton.edu X-Trace: cnn.Princeton.EDU 973993671 11219 140.180.145.102 (12 Nov 2000 01:47:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@cnn.Princeton.EDU NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Nov 2000 01:47:51 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.30 Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:456900 >From the book of Richard M. Boye': > Erik Milosevic wrote: > > > > wrote in message news:8ujhbd$unf$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > > This is a can o'spoilers, so beware. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Okay, that should be enough space. [snip] > > > Tuon's middle name was lifted right out of Greek mythology. "Kore" was > > > another name for Persephone, and means "daughter." It's interesting to > > > note that Persephone was abducted by Hades, who later became her > > > husband. > > > > > > Nice one. > > > I agree. > > Meanwhile, we were also talking about Tuon, I was thinking about her > personal sigil which is an ancient war-cart being pulled by golden > lions, and was discussing it with Elio and his fiancee, and we have > picked up on some intriguing references. > > First of all, the Norse goddess Freya was known to have a wagon driven > by cats, and Freya was also known to have a cape/cloak/mantle that > allowd her to assume the guise of a bird of prey. This would work well > if Freya was known to adopt a hawk, for the golden hawk is the symbol of > the Seanchan Imperial family, yet it seems that Freya was more likely to > be traipsing about as a -falcon. Oh well. > > There are other references, though. Artemis/Diana had a chariot pulled > by lions, and of course, Artemis/Diana were goddesses of the -moon- so > that links up. > > However, the final reference that we think works well is that of the > titaness Rhea, mother of the the Olympians, and wife to Cronus. She was > commonly shown as driving a chariot pulled by lions. As a fertility > deity, she was also linked to the moon. Yet you don't take it to the next step. The archetype of the ancient fertility goddess is a bloodthirsty huntress, who rides on the backs of lions or leopards, or is associated with serpents. She is often linked to the moon as well. She demanded blood sacrifices, often human. Examples: Artemis, Diana, apparently Freya and Rhea, Kali, Cybele, Sekmet, Inanna, Astarte (or Anath--hmmm). Only later was this goddess "cleaned up" to become the sensual fertility goddess, the mother, or the agriculturalist. Source: Barbara Ehrenreich, _Blood Rites_ Yes, the same Ehrenreich who gave an impassioned pro-Nader statement in the NY Times a week or so before this election. There's definitely a predator-woman in the Seanchan psyche. -- Matt Winner of the Rose Bruford Medal for Effort From maccabeus_the_mad@my-deja.com Sun Nov 12 18:33:10 CST 2000 Article: 455817 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!newsfeed.stanford.edu!cyclone.bc.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail From: Maccabeus Epimanes Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: WH: A certain Seanchan (Spoiler) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 22:47:03 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 23 Message-ID: <8uf9h5$l8f$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8ueqdt$7ah$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.249.147.242 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Nov 09 22:47:03 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.75 [en] (Win95; U) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x65.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 216.249.147.242 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDmaccabeus_the_mad Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:455817 In article <8ueqdt$7ah$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Young Blandford wrote: > Well, well, well.... > > http://www.pantheon.org/mythica/articles/a/anath.html Interesting. Especially given that her position is called "Soe'feia". "Sophia" is the Greek word for wisdom. Like the Hebrew word used in Proverbs, where wisdom is personified as a woman, it's feminine. This eventually led to some Qabbalistic scholars identifying Wisdom personified with God's "feminine side". If memory serves, anyway. -- Maccabeus Epimanes Hammer of the Light "It is time for judgement to begin with the House of God." 1 Peter 4:17 Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.