From jhamby@cub.kcnet.org Tue Jul 6 10:23:55 CDT 1999 Article: 352465 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:352465 Path: uchinews!ncar!den-news-01.qwest.net!qwest!pulsar.dimensional.com!dimensional.com!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail From: jhamby@cub.kcnet.org Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: On rereading Lord of Chaos Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 15:11:08 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Share what you know. Learn what you don't. Lines: 63 Message-ID: <7lqhu4$lj6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <377F61E0.959B819A@hartford.bm> <377F93FA.70BA@webspan.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.71.61.87 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Jul 05 15:11:08 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.08 [en] (Win95; I) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x37.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 209.71.61.87 waldo@webspan.net wrote: > Neil Anderson wrote: > > > > Enough already. One thing that jumped out at me was > > the description of Anaiya's comforting of Egwene before > > she goes before the Hall to be raised as Amyrlin (Ch. 35, > > 'In the Hall of the Sitters', p 472.) > > > > "Anaiya stroked Egwene's hair soothingly. "It will go well, > > child". > > > > Now a) the stroking of hair is very similar to what > > Sheriam's mystery attacker does to her in PoD and b0 > > she clearly thinks of Egwene as a "child", again similar > > to the reference to "what the girl is doing" that > > Sheriam's unwelcome visitor makes. > > This is a good observation, but Sheriam'a attacker was > able to outstrip Sheriam in the OP and easily overpower > her. Sheriam is the next rank below Moiraine/Elaida/Lelaine. Slight nitpick. Sheriam is the strongest of the Salidar Six; followed by Myrelle and then the other four (including Anaiya). Has no real bearing on Rich's point but it is not clear that there is no sister who surpasses Sheriam in the rebel camp but still stands below Lelaine and Romanda. >I don't think Anaiya is. No Anaiya stands below Myrelle who is ranked after Sheriam. And Sheriam seems to be stronger by a clear margin. All six seem to be rather strong (which may indeed make Rich's statement above true); a factor in letting these particular Six take charge no doubt. > The other thing that _Lelaine_ likes to stroke Egwene's hair, > as well as Suian's hair. Also Anaiya and Lelaine are hardly the only sisters in Salidar to look at Egwene and see a 'girl'. Egwene herself reflects on this more than once before she takes charge (and even after >from her thoughts as they gate to Tar Valon). Another reason that Anaiya is not the questioner in my eyes, is the fact that sworn to Egwene Anaiya actually is almost (if not) as involved in Egwene's plans. As fellow Blues and friends caught in the same net by Egwene in the matter of the spies sent to the Tower, I doubt there is much more Sheriam is aware of. Even in terms of what Anaiya might suspect her of knowing. I still suspect Anaiya is BA though (shaddup Rich!). --- JSH Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From scarab@watervalley.net Tue Jul 6 13:46:59 CDT 1999 Article: 352582 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:352582 From: "Scarab" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Why Sheriam is not BA Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 10:34:03 -0500 Lines: 43 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 NNTP-Posting-Host: dialupc236.watervalley.net Message-ID: <378220fd@news-out2.newsnerds.com> X-Trace: 6 Jul 1999 10:30:05 -0500, dialupc236.watervalley.net Path: uchinews!ncar!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!209.44.33.119!hub1.ispnews.com!news-master.service.talkway.com!news-out2.newsnerds.com!dialupc236.watervalley.net I read in the FAQ different reasons why Sheriam might be Black Ajah, most notably because of her tormentor in tPoD. I am assuming that the logic there is that such scenes of violence and beatings are usually reserved for those in which darkfriends and/or whitecloaks are involved. Thus, we come upon the scene and immediately assume darkfriends (ie BA) are involved, however bad that logic is. And indeed, Sheriam's tormentor could be black. BUT Sheriam is not. Here's why: Sheriam is still bound by the three Oaths, particularly the "no-lies" oath, which we know Black Ajah are definitely free of. Thus, the logic is that if a sister can be found (by whatever means) to be still under the Three Oaths they cannot be Black. Reference Sheriam's swearing fealty to Egwene first, and Sheriam's following it later. However, this is not conclusive since the fealty swearing and Sheriam's actions concerning it occur off-scene. However, we do know that Sheriam cannot lie. In [ACOS, The Figurehead, pp.162-163] Sheriam is forced to tell Egwene the truth about the sisters sent back to the Tower as "ferrets." Had Sheriam not been under the Oaths, then she could have simply said "I have no idea about those sisters leaving. If indeed any did, somone else must have sent them." But since she could not lie, and Egwene forced her not to evade or escape the oath by omission, then Sheriam had to tell Egwene about the ferrets. Thus, she is still under the Three Oaths, meaning she cannot be BA. It is also interesting that the REASON Sheriam and her coterie hid this information from the Hall was the fear of Sitters being Black Ajah. This re-inforces the assertion that they, including and especially Sheriam when the scene above is considered, are not BA. Thus, the logic says that Sheriam is not and cannot be Black Ajah. Whether her torturer is or is not is another discussion entirely. If so, it can only be Delana if it is a Sitter as Sheriam indicates. I theorize that Delana is the only Black Sitter in Salidar, simply because she is the only one that Halima seems to be ordering around and forcing to be "wishy-washy." If there were more Black Sitters, Delana would not have to act so. The Blacks would be able to lead a concerted effort in the Salidar Hall, as they seem to do in the Tower. Of course, who is Black in Salidar is a whole other can of worms, too. From jhamby@cub.kcnet.org Wed Aug 11 09:38:31 CDT 1999 Article: 360350 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:360350 Path: uchinews!ncar!den-news-01.qwest.net!qwest!pulsar.dimensional.com!dimensional.com!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail From: jhamby@cub.kcnet.org Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: The Forsaken: Where are they now? (PoD) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 05:01:36 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Share what you know. Learn what you don't. Lines: 75 Message-ID: <7or03d$ie7$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <37afd8d9.56724353@netnews.voicenet.com> <7op6oq$io6$1@news-int.gatech.edu> <37b08657.6507396@netnews.voicenet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.71.61.108 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Aug 11 05:01:36 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.08 [en] (Win95; I) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x31.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 209.71.61.108 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDsulamein cgkuhn@voicenet.com wrote: > "Patrick Cotrona" wrote: > > > > >Quoth C. Adam Kuhn: > > > >[snip] > >> >Semirhage: ??? > >> > >> Personally, I think she's Sheriam's tormentor in Salidar/Murandy. > >> The description of her torture jives with the way Semirhage > >> tortured the other sister (forgotten the name... starts with a C). > > > >I don't think they could be any more different. Cabriana was > >tortured by manipulating the pain and pleasure centers in her > >brain; Sheriam was apparently beaten, as she was left with welts. > > > >Besides, I thought we had placed her with the Seanchan. > > I meant the whole "the clothes exploded off her like a pricked > bubble." This particular maneuver is unique to two situations > - the tortures of Sheriam and Cabriana. I know it's a small thing > to go on, but RJ often plants clues in the tiniest detail. > Is it the only time we see the OP to dispose of clothing? For some reason I keep thinking there is another. Also Moiraine's disposal of Merean comes to mind as well oddly enough. Semirhage's method is similar but not exactly the same, imo. Also nakedness as an intimidation factor when questioning a fellow AS seems to be a common practice. Siuan and Leane were naked after being questioned and stilled. > Also, Semirhage had plenty of time to torment Cabriana, but anyone > could have walked in on her with Sheriam. > But this seems to be more of an argument against Semirhage doesn't it? The whole naked beating thing. After all anyone walking in and the gig is up. Whereas if Semirhage was the questioner and followed her questioning ways seen with Cabriana, a casual but sudden observer could be none the wiser. Also if memory serves, Sheriam's questioning took a rather long time. It also resulted in physical evidence. Both something a Forsaken who wishes to remain secret (and secret in activities as well) would wish to avoid. The fact that Semirhage has to question Cabriana as to the where/What/ Why/When/Who of Salidar etc. apparently, seems to effectively rule out her presence in Salidar prior to the scene in LOC. So why send her there now when the DO has Halima and at least one BA to do the Shadow's work. That would mean pulling Semirhage away from that charge for a rather longer time than just squeezing an AS for info. But I do agree that RJ gives away a nice little hint or two. The fact that Sheriam's questioning falls neatly into the parameters of what we have seen concerning not only Siuan and Leane's treatment (from those two as well as bits from povs of both Elaida and Galina) but also from the outline that Adeleas or Vandene lays down in custom and rule in questioning someone; seems to point to not only her questioner not being a Forsaken. But not being a member of the BA either. --- JSH Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From jamie@photon.com Mon Nov 13 12:11:24 CST 2000 Article: 456631 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-feed.riddles.org.uk!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!banshee.wdc.photon.com!jamie From: Jamie Bowden Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: WH: Spoilers Approved: Yep. Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 12:58:34 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: X-Sender: jamie@banshee.wdc.photon.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 38 Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:456631 I'll have some spoilage below, get over it. Fine, that's enough of that. Okay, it would appear that Sheriam is somewhat in the clear on the grey men back TDR. The end of Out of Think Air indicates that Isam/Luc (and, they do appear to be separate personalities to some degree, depending on which face is being worn) is likely responsible for killing the grey men. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen From e98jgu@efd.lth.se Mon Nov 13 13:40:33 CST 2000 Article: 455054 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news.lth.se!panter-3!e98jgu From: e98jgu@efd.lth.se (Johan Gustafsson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: WH: Long Review (spoilers) Date: 8 Nov 2000 14:07:51 GMT Organization: Lund University, Sweden Lines: 88 Message-ID: <8ubmnn$att$3@news.lth.se> References: <8ubl61$att$1@news.lth.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: panter-3.efd.lth.se NNTP-Posting-User: e98jgu X-Newsreader: xrn 9.01 Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:455054 In article , Katherine Inskip writes: > Johan Gustafsson writes: > > .> In article , > .> jsn@concentric.net (John S. Novak, III) writes: > >> There will be rambling, then there will be a page break, then > >> there will be a rambling spoiler review. > >> > .> [snip] > > >> The page break, preceding the rambling spoilers: > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > .> Adding some space... > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> And, finally, the rambling spoilers: > >> o Isam is back. As is Luc. And I don't think Luc is rescuable, > >> at this point, either. Isam is a cool concept. We must learn > >> more about him. My speculation on his current master is... Taim. > > I suspect Sammael myself. No evidence really, just instinct. Hmm. Could be. > >> Not Demandred. Taim. It makes sense. He's strong enough to > >> command. He has reason to be very paranoid, and obviously wants > >> Rand dead. None of the other Forsaken really fit. > > > And some more answered questions: Isam killed Joiya and Amico, as > > well as the Gray Man in Tar Valon (I honestly thought RJ had > > forgottn about that). Sheriam may have known about Isam, and it > > may be Isam who visits her in the nights. This would explain her > > beatings and the dead Gray Man in her bed. Poor Sheriam. > > There were _two_ gray men in TV. One dead one in Sheriam's bed, > and the other, discoved stabbed by Egwene in the hall. > So, which did Isam kill, and who killed the other? I'd say Isam killed the one in the hall. If Sheriam knows him that'd explain why she didn't ask who killed him. As for the one in her bed, it could have been sent to deal with her, and she killed it, or Isam put it in her bed as a sign of his superiority (i.e. "Fuck with me, dear Sheriam, and this is what you get.") -- Johan Gustafsson *** e98jgu@efd.lth.se Are you a bad enough dude to rescue the President? From bossman593@my-deja.com Mon Nov 13 18:08:59 CST 2000 Article: 456625 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail From: bossman593@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Question - WH spoiler, minor Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 17:16:50 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 54 Message-ID: <8ujutu$8a2$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.106.2 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Nov 11 17:16:50 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x66.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 66.20.106.2 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDbossman593 Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:456625 s p o i l e r s p a c e Ok, I have looked at a lot of WH plot threads, and everyine seems to think that the gray man Slayer/Luc/Isam talks about is the one found in Sheriam's bed, but i think people are forgetting about the gray man that attacked Egwene in the WT, whom she found stabbed by an unkown person. I know that happened all the way back in TGH/TDR, but it still coulda been S/L/I. Just a thought... -Rob "Bossman" Houston Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. From myranya@knoware.nl Tue Nov 14 23:29:22 CST 2000 Article: 457417 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!gamma.ru.MISMATCH!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!news-x.support.nl!News-Service!not-for-mail From: myranya@knoware.nl (Myranya) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Old question but minor spoiler (only tells who does NOT appear in WT :)) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 04:29:29 GMT Organization: Knoware Lines: 60 Message-ID: <3a1265b8.35315755@news.knoware.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.64.48.20 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99g/32.339 Cache-Post-Path: news.knoware.nl!unknown@myranya.knoware.nl X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:457417 Okay, for those who don't even count who does and does not appear in WT as a spoiler, here's some lines... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I got an old question I can't find in the FAQ. What happened to Sheriam's Warder? I had never even noticed his one, very brief appearance until I read a message in another thread. He pops up in tFoH just long enough to give a message about riders approaching, to the best of my knowledge he's never seen before or after that. But, where is he in PoD when Sheriam gets beat up??? He's not with her, Sheriam never thinks a thing about him.. if he felt that, even if he wasn't with her, he should've come running. And if he didn't come running, Sheriam should've wondered where he was. And if she didn't wonder where he was at the time, she should've worried about him finding out what's happening to her when she's so sore the next day. This just does not make any sense to me whatsoever. I can think of two explanations: either he is a darkfriend and therefor does not interfere with anything (not likely) or RJ missed something in all his hunderds of characters and names, and forgot about him. (not too likely but could happen I guess -he's got enough names and characters walking around). Anyone got any other ideas? Myranya. myranya@knoware.nl | http://www.knoware.nl/users/myranya -- I get paid to use the internet! http://www.getpaid4.com/?myranya | http://www.processtree.com/?sponsor=11096 http://www.cashfiesta.com/php/join.php?ref=myranyaw lots more at: http://www.knoware.nl/users/myranya/money.html