From blindstr@cisco.com Mon Nov 13 13:32:11 CST 2000 Article: 457244 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-feed.riddles.org.uk!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail From: "Brian T. Lindstrom" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: True Power and Reversing - Spoilers Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 16:34:00 -0600 Organization: Cisco Systems Inc. Message-ID: <974068598.89776@sj-nntpcache-3> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Cache-Post-Path: sj-nntpcache-3!unknown@sj-dial-4-45.cisco.com X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 49 Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:457244 Alrighty then, here's some space: - OK In "Wonderful News" of WH, we are given a POV from Demandred. He expresses some amount of startlement or shock when Moridishy kills the rat, because he didn't "feel" anything. He then says it was the True Power and shivers. Then, we have the issue of Reversing. In the final chapter, Verin and her group end up facing off with Graendal. They can't see the flows or the glow of saidar around her, which seems to be the Reversing affect. Then we have Cyndanes POV where she thinks that the fact that she knows how to Reverse a flow is an advantage over Alivia, and the way it is descrived matches Verin et al's experience with Graendal. Now, here is my connundrum. When Demandred can't feel anything happening with Moridishy, he automatically assumes it is the TP. Why is that, when by all accounts Moridishy could have Reversed his flows? btl. -- # # Brian T. Lindstrom # Cisco Systems, Inc # blindstr@cisco.com # PDGA #17404 # From argonomic@earthlink.net Mon Nov 13 13:32:17 CST 2000 Article: 457325 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail From: "Avatar" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan References: <974068598.89776@sj-nntpcache-3> Subject: Re: True Power and Reversing - Spoilers Lines: 47 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 01:09:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.178.117.243 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 974077791 63.178.117.243 (Sun, 12 Nov 2000 17:09:51 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 17:09:51 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:457325 Brian T. Lindstrom wrote in message news:974068598.89776@sj-nntpcache-3... > Alrighty then, here's some space: > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > Then, we have the issue of Reversing. In the final chapter, Verin and her > group end up facing off with Graendal. They can't see the flows or the glow > of saidar around her, which seems to be the Reversing affect. Then we have > Cyndanes POV where she thinks that the fact that she knows how to Reverse a > flow is an advantage over Alivia, and the way it is descrived matches Verin > et al's experience with Graendal. > > Now, here is my connundrum. When Demandred can't feel anything happening > with Moridishy, he automatically assumes it is the TP. Why is that, when by > all accounts Moridishy could have Reversed his flows? > We know males can invert weaves, but can they reverse? Could be another source difference, albeit a crippling one for men. I tend to wonder: Alviaran couldn't sense the source in Mesanna. She couldn't sense the weaves either. What happens when a source hidden female channeller uses a reversed weave near a male channeller? Would he get goose bumps? From blindstr@cisco.com Mon Nov 13 13:32:32 CST 2000 Article: 457373 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!europa.netcrusader.net!64.152.100.70!cyclone-sjo1.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail From: "Brian T. Lindstrom" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: True Power and Reversing - Spoilers Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 21:05:24 -0600 Organization: Cisco Systems Inc. Message-ID: <974084603.613053@sj-nntpcache-5> References: <974068598.89776@sj-nntpcache-3> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Cache-Post-Path: sj-nntpcache-5!unknown@sj-dial-4-40.cisco.com X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 67 Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:457373 "Avatar" wrote in message news:zbHP5.12437$U4.651970@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net... > > Brian T. Lindstrom wrote in message > news:974068598.89776@sj-nntpcache-3... > > Alrighty then, here's some space: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then, we have the issue of Reversing. In the final chapter, Verin and her > > group end up facing off with Graendal. They can't see the flows or the > glow > > of saidar around her, which seems to be the Reversing affect. Then we > have > > Cyndanes POV where she thinks that the fact that she knows how to Reverse > a > > flow is an advantage over Alivia, and the way it is descrived matches > Verin > > et al's experience with Graendal. > > > > Now, here is my connundrum. When Demandred can't feel anything happening > > with Moridishy, he automatically assumes it is the TP. Why is that, when > by > > all accounts Moridishy could have Reversed his flows? > > > We know males can invert weaves, but can they reverse? Could be another > source difference, albeit a crippling one for men. I tend to wonder: > Alviaran couldn't sense the source in Mesanna. She couldn't sense the weaves > either. What happens when a source hidden female channeller uses a reversed > weave near a male channeller? Would he get goose bumps? > > > When Demandred gets to Shadar Logoth, he mentions (to himself) that he reversed his weaves just to be safe, so evidently it is possible. Also, since as soon as he arrived he had to flee the explosions, we have to assume that Cadsuane's ter'angreal can detect reversed weaves (which makes sense if it was made for battle). btl. From blindstr@cisco.com Mon Nov 13 13:32:54 CST 2000 Article: 457584 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail From: "Brian T. Lindstrom" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: True Power and Reversing - Spoilers Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 08:29:35 -0600 Organization: Cisco Systems Inc. Message-ID: <974125843.339834@sj-nntpcache-3> References: <974068598.89776@sj-nntpcache-3> <8unqe1$7mf$1@solaria.cc.gatech.edu> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Cache-Post-Path: sj-nntpcache-3!unknown@171.71.158.101 X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 61 Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:457584 "Patrick Cotrona" wrote in message news:8unqe1$7mf$1@solaria.cc.gatech.edu... > Brian T. Lindstrom wrote: > : Alrighty then, here's some space: > > > > > > > > > > > > : - > > > > > > > > : OK > > : In "Wonderful News" of WH, we are given a POV from Demandred. He > : expresses some amount of startlement or shock when Moridishy kills the rat, > : because he didn't "feel" anything. He then says it was the True Power and > : shivers. > > : Then, we have the issue of Reversing. In the final chapter, Verin and her > : group end up facing off with Graendal. They can't see the flows or the glow > : of saidar around her, which seems to be the Reversing affect. Then we have > : Cyndanes POV where she thinks that the fact that she knows how to Reverse a > : flow is an advantage over Alivia, and the way it is descrived matches Verin > : et al's experience with Graendal. > > I don't see how reversing will hide the saidar glow; it's only described > as something you can do with a weave or flow. How does one "reverse" their > hold on the Source, anyway? And why haven't the Forsaken used this before? > Verin did not realize that Graendal was holding onto the source, ie could not see the glow. Also see the sections of the previous books where Alvarin is talking with Messanna, the same thing is happening there. For women, Reversing not only hides the weaves but also hides the fact that you are holding saidar. btl. From simon@walton.maths.tcd.ie Fri Nov 17 11:19:05 CST 2000 Article: 459421 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.esat.net!news.heanet.ie!news.tcd.ie!maths.tcd.ie!not-for-mail From: simon@walton.maths.tcd.ie (Simon Cullen) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: Reversing??? WTF? (spoilers) Date: 17 Nov 2000 12:46:36 -0000 Organization: Dept. of Maths, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland. Lines: 68 Sender: simon@maths.tcd.ie Message-ID: <8v39bc$21di$1@walton.maths.tcd.ie> References: <3a0b1cf5@news-out.newsnerds.com> <3a148b82.9008803@news.erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: walton.maths.tcd.ie Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: synge.maths.tcd.ie 974465196 44749 134.226.81.10 (17 Nov 2000 12:46:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@maths.tcd.ie NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Nov 2000 12:46:36 GMT To: zeger@erols.com X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:459421 [Posted and mailed] In article <3a148b82.9008803@news.erols.com>, zeger@erols.com writes: > On Thu, 9 Nov 2000 17:06:53 -0600, "Jeremey Dobbins" > wrote: > >>spoiler space >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>Okay, so where in the universe did this business with "reversing" a web come >>from? I mean, there is inverting a tied weave so that it can't be seen, but >>reversing a web still being channelled is something else entirely? That >>seems a little more on the odd side, especially since we have seen nothing >>or heard nothing of it before. Previous interaction with the Forsaken and >>Our People of the same sex has not resulted (IIRC) in anyone noticing their >>weaves being unseen, or those that have been were easily explained by >>inverting a tied off weave. For example, Moggy didn't bother to reverse her >>weavings in Tanchico when she battled Nynaeve. > > Yes, but didn't she use reversing to stay undetected amongst the SAS? > No, she used a weave to hide her ability to channel and then _inverted_ that. As far as I can remember, this business of "reversing" a weave is something that we haven't seen before. For instance, when Nynaeve is battling Moggy in Tanchico, there is no indication that she was having difficulty seeing Moggy's weaves. Surely this would have given Moggy an advantage, so why didn't she use it? Maybe it takes away from the strength of the weave and she was already at her limit with Nynaeve, but I still find it odd. Any thoughts? -- My perfection is only marred by the people who surround me. Simon .