From hanser@teameggroll.com Wed Nov 15 11:09:41 CST 2000 Article: 458580 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail From: hanser@teameggroll.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: Gholam and Mordeth (WH Spoilers and possible WOT FAQ addition) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 13:55:18 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 61 Message-ID: <8uu4k2$4de$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8utcq9$igc$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.183.140.242 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Nov 15 13:55:18 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows NT 4.0) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x57.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 206.183.140.242 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDxhanser Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:458580 In article <8utcq9$igc$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, bigcps@email.com wrote: > Spoiler Space: > > I just finished the book tonight but I haven't seen this particular > topic discussed here. My apologies if it has already been addressed. > > Has anyone noticed that in WH there is evidence that Mordeth (before he > merged with Fain) was a gholam? > > In WH Chapter 16 "An Unexpected Encounter" p 355 we have the > description of the Gholam's escape: > > "The creature stuck its hands into a hole left by a missing brick ... > Hands followed arms, and then the gholam's head went into the hole ... > The gholam's chest slithered through, its legs, and it was gone. > Through an opening maybe the size of Mat's two hands." > > and Mat's reaction a paragraph below: "I have [seen its like before] in > Shgadar Logoth." > > So I dug up my old beat up paperback copy of TEotW and found the > description of Mordeth escaping the ta'veren in Shadar Logoth after he > spooks them; Chapter 19 "Shadow's Waiting" p 285: > > "As Mordeth dove through the air, he stretched out and thinned, like a > tendril of smoke. As thin as a finger he struck a crack in the wall > tiles and vanished into it. A last cry hung in the room as he > vanished, fading slowly away after he was gone. 'You are all dead!'" > > It seems very similar to what the gholam did, and points to Mordeth > maybe being a gholam himself. It would explain how he survived in > Shadar Logoth for 2000 years, but unfortunately not much else about him > and his special situation and how/why he needed to merge with Fain to > leave Shadar Logoth. Anyway I though this warranted further > examination, since it seems that RJ dropped the hint deliberately in > WH. Again, if it has already been discussed, tell me to shut up and > please point me to the thread :) Comments are appreciated. > > Charles Not a whole lot of people go into Shadar Logoth. Gholam need to eat. How would it have survived? Mashadar eats almost everything else, Mordeth might not have been fast enough to get them before Mashadar. Unless of course Mashadar turns out to be an extension of Mordeth. (which, IIRC, it is). The only problem is that Gholam are Shayol Ghul evil. Mordeth's evil (according to Robert Jordan at a book signing) was designed _specifically_ to combat the evil of Shayol Ghul, and this is the reason that Rand's two wounds throb out of sync with each other. hanser Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. From bigcps@email.com Wed Nov 15 11:09:46 CST 2000 Article: 458532 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail From: bigcps@email.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Gholam and Mordeth (WH Spoilers and possible WOT FAQ addition) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 07:08:58 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 67 Message-ID: <8utcq9$igc$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.2.115.150 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Nov 15 07:08:58 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows 98; Win 9x 4.90) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x72.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 128.2.115.150 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDbigcps Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:458532 Spoiler Space: I just finished the book tonight but I haven't seen this particular topic discussed here. My apologies if it has already been addressed. Has anyone noticed that in WH there is evidence that Mordeth (before he merged with Fain) was a gholam? In WH Chapter 16 "An Unexpected Encounter" p 355 we have the description of the Gholam's escape: "The creature stuck its hands into a hole left by a missing brick ... Hands followed arms, and then the gholam's head went into the hole ... The gholam's chest slithered through, its legs, and it was gone. Through an opening maybe the size of Mat's two hands." and Mat's reaction a paragraph below: "I have [seen its like before] in Shgadar Logoth." So I dug up my old beat up paperback copy of TEotW and found the description of Mordeth escaping the ta'veren in Shadar Logoth after he spooks them; Chapter 19 "Shadow's Waiting" p 285: "As Mordeth dove through the air, he stretched out and thinned, like a tendril of smoke. As thin as a finger he struck a crack in the wall tiles and vanished into it. A last cry hung in the room as he vanished, fading slowly away after he was gone. 'You are all dead!'" It seems very similar to what the gholam did, and points to Mordeth maybe being a gholam himself. It would explain how he survived in Shadar Logoth for 2000 years, but unfortunately not much else about him and his special situation and how/why he needed to merge with Fain to leave Shadar Logoth. Anyway I though this warranted further examination, since it seems that RJ dropped the hint deliberately in WH. Again, if it has already been discussed, tell me to shut up and please point me to the thread :) Comments are appreciated. Charles Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. From gangys@my-deja.com Wed Nov 15 11:10:12 CST 2000 Article: 458623 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!netnews.com!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail From: gangys@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: Gholam and Mordeth (WH Spoilers and possible WOT FAQ addition) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 16:01:26 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 80 Message-ID: <8uuc0g$at9$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8utcq9$igc$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8uu4k2$4de$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.75.254.138 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Nov 15 16:01:26 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows 98; msnca) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x58.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 192.75.254.138 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDgangys Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:458623 In article <8uu4k2$4de$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, hanser@teameggroll.com wrote: > In article <8utcq9$igc$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > bigcps@email.com wrote: > > Spoiler Space: > > > > I just finished the book tonight but I haven't seen this particular > > topic discussed here. My apologies if it has already been addressed. > > > > Has anyone noticed that in WH there is evidence that Mordeth (before > he > > merged with Fain) was a gholam? > > > > In WH Chapter 16 "An Unexpected Encounter" p 355 we have the > > description of the Gholam's escape: > > > > "The creature stuck its hands into a hole left by a missing brick ... > > Hands followed arms, and then the gholam's head went into the hole ... > > The gholam's chest slithered through, its legs, and it was gone. > > Through an opening maybe the size of Mat's two hands." > > > > and Mat's reaction a paragraph below: "I have [seen its like before] > in > > Shgadar Logoth." > > > > So I dug up my old beat up paperback copy of TEotW and found the > > description of Mordeth escaping the ta'veren in Shadar Logoth after he > > spooks them; Chapter 19 "Shadow's Waiting" p 285: > > > > "As Mordeth dove through the air, he stretched out and thinned, like a > > tendril of smoke. As thin as a finger he struck a crack in the wall > > tiles and vanished into it. A last cry hung in the room as he > > vanished, fading slowly away after he was gone. 'You are all dead!'" > > > > It seems very similar to what the gholam did, and points to Mordeth > > maybe being a gholam himself. It would explain how he survived in > > Shadar Logoth for 2000 years, but unfortunately not much else about > him > > and his special situation and how/why he needed to merge with Fain to > > leave Shadar Logoth. Anyway I though this warranted further > > examination, since it seems that RJ dropped the hint deliberately in > > WH. Again, if it has already been discussed, tell me to shut up and > > please point me to the thread :) Comments are appreciated. > > Not a whole lot of people go into Shadar Logoth. Gholam need to eat. > How would it have survived? Mashadar eats almost everything else, > Mordeth might not have been fast enough to get them before Mashadar. > Unless of course Mashadar turns out to be an extension of Mordeth. > (which, IIRC, it is). > > The only problem is that Gholam are Shayol Ghul evil. Mordeth's evil > (according to Robert Jordan at a book signing) was designed > _specifically_ to combat the evil of Shayol Ghul, and this is the > reason that Rand's two wounds throb out of sync with each other. Here's an Idea. We know from CoS (I think) that the Gholam chasing Mat doesn't particularly like being forced to do all of this killing for the shadow. If left to its own devices it'd probably just kill randomly (not much of an improvement). Anyway, what if this Gholam's mindset is the normal one for Gholams? Another Gholam could have broken free of the control of the Shadow and wandered around until it found Shadar Logoth. WHo knows what a few thousand years of freedom would do to the psychology of a Gholam, maybe by then it had gotten smart enough to not kill everything it saw. And as for eating stuff, maybe Mashadar is an extension of the Gholam... and if not, I bet there are little critters in the forest. Graham Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.