Subject: WH: Bad Guy Roundup (SPOILERS)

From: [email-masked] (P. Korda)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 22:34:02 GMT

First in a series of WH commentary. Yeah, I know there is a lost of
that already going on, but I'm going to be socially irresponsible and
start another thread, in the hope that people will post their ideas in
MY threads, so I can find them easily.

GENERAL:

Well, it seems like a lot of our general assumptions were wrong:

1) It seems like the supposed proscription against killing Rand was either 
a limited-time thing, or just a general guideline, since during the 
Forsaken Coffee Hour in WH, they speak openly of killing Rand. 

2) The Forsaken know about the resurrections of Aginor, Balthamel, and 
Ishamael, and know who is who. This, I think, is the end result of a 
process begun with the creation of the Gars back in LOC, continued with 
the mindtrapping of Moggy and Cynfear, and the gathering in of Graendal in 
TPOD. Clearly, the other Forsaken were "gathered in" offscreen. Also 
clearly, Moridin has known about all of them all along, otherwise, he 
wouldn't have been able to gather them in.

3) Slayer is, on one hand, exactly what we thought, and on the other, much 
more complicated and powerful than anybody dreamed of, outside of Loony 
Theories. (More on Slayer later.)

Now, for the individuals:

RAHVIN, BEL'AL, ASMODEAN: Still dead. 

AGINOR/OSAN'GAR: 

Was, in fact, Dashiva all along.  All of things I thought didn't make sense 
didn't make sense because of a lack of information, not because they were 
wrong.  Dashiva appeared to be trying to kill Rand in TPOD because he WAS 
trying to kill Rand, and had not been forbidden from doing so.  It seemed 
odd for the Dark Side to be double-teaming Rand with Taimandred and 
Dashivan'gar, but it seems as if the Dark Side was double-teaming Rand with 
Demandred (who, after all, might not be Taim) and Dashiva'gar.  It was said 
that if Dashiva was a Forsaken, he was the Limper of the Forsaken (ref.  
Cook's Black Company books), and sure enough, Aginor/Osan'gar/Dashiva 
is/was the Limper of the Forsaken.  He's managed to get killed TWICE. I 
wonder if the DO will bother resurrecting him again.  I must say that the 
Dark Side really didn't make use of him very well.  He should have been 
working hard in a monster lab, not wasting time doing a spy job which any 
halfway competant Darkfriend could have done just as well.

BALTHAMEL/ARAN'GAR/HALIMA:

As we've known for a while, is Egwene's masseuse. She believes she has 
Egwene totally under her thumb, but what is she DOING? The headaches 
obviously have something to do with it, either as a "fake cause" to make Eg 
dependent on Halima's massages, or as a side effect of whatever bad juju 
she is working on Egwene. If she's Compelling her or something, it is very 
subtle. 

GRAENDAL:

Graendal's plan seems to be to avoid making waves, and let the other 
Forsaken get themselves killed. For somebody as powerful as she supposedly 
is, she really doesn't do much. Of course, she could be executing some 
brilliant strategy off-screen, and will end up Nae'blis after all.

ISHAMAEL/MORIDIN:

I know some people will STILL try to deny that Ishamael is Moridin, but 
really. Give it up, people. The other Forsaken know he's Ishamael. You 
should, too. 

But, what was up with sending all the Chosen to get their asses kicked at 
Shadar Logoth?  Is he still underestimating Rand, at this point in the 
game?  If he'd really wanted Rand's plan stopped, couldn't he have 
mobilized a bunch of DFs to lend support to the Forsaken, or gotten the DO 
to let them use the True Power (which would have kept them from becoming 
targets like they did), or gotten the Forsaken better intelligence 
(Demandred was surprised to find an Asha'man there), or participated 
himself? Something is stinky with that scheme. Maybe it was an exercise to 
demonstrate to the Chosen that _they_ need to take Rand more seriously? 

LANFEAR/CYNDANE:

See what I wrote about Moridin and Ishamael, above?  Same here.  There is 
only one psycho ex-girlfriend of LTT who invited Rand to use the 
mega-sa'angreal with her to challenge the DO and the Creator, who was the 
strongest known woman channeller, and who spent time in Finnland.  Her name 
was Lanfear.  Now it is Cyndane.

>From Demandred, we know that Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear was, although 
she is still stronger than Graenal.  (Which is to say, pretty damn strong.)  
The only way we know of for such a strength decrease to occur is from 
Stilling followed by improper Healing, a la Siuan and Leane.  So, maybe she 
was stilled by the doorway explosion, and used one of her three wishes to 
ask for her ability to be restored, without asking to be restored to full 
power.  Maybe the decrease in channelling power is the "price" she paid 
for her wishes and/or her freedom.

An interesting line is: "[Alivia] was stronger than Cyndane had been before 
the Aelfinn and Eelfinn had held her." So, Lanfear did not die upon 
falling through the doorway, but was held for some time. This is a definite 
indication that Moiraine did not die, either. We still have no clue as to  
how she ended up with a different body. If she died, when did she die? If 
it was the result of a Finn wish, how did they manage it?

MESAANA:

aka, Dame Not-Appearing-in-this-Book. Moridin comments that her absence 
>from the Coffee Hour is "A pity. She should hear what I have to say.... 
Small, apparently unimportant matters can become very important." As far 
as I can tell, the only thing Mesaana lost from missing the meeting 
is getting her butt kicked at Shadar Logoth. 

MOGHEDIEN:

Shows up at the end, stays out of the fight. 

SAMMEAL:

Has returned. IMO, he is the mystery guy who Slayer speaks to in TAR, who 
sent Slayer to kill Rand and Min in Far Madding. Reasoning: the mystery 
guy must be a Forsaken, since only they can summon/command Slayer. He is 
abnormally paranoid about keeping his identity and his actions secret. 
I can't think of any reason for any or the other Forsaken, male or female, 
to be so secretive about trying to kill Rand, especially since they all 
just had a meeting where they talked about killing Rand. Sammy is back, 
and is hiding out in TAR. Maybe he was the other person (besides Luc and 
Temaile Kinderode) spying on the Wonder Girls in TAR. 

SEMIRHAGE:

As has been pointed out, Sem has got to be Tuon's scarey retainer, Anath. 
The description, personality, and situation all match up. Poor, poor Mat. 

DEMANDRED:

Is he or isn't he? Finally, in WH, we get something to contradict the mass 
of hints that Demandred is Taim. 

First is the Kisman POV, right before Fain kills him. Kisman thinks about 
how Taim ordered the attack on the Sun Palace, and then was "as displeased 
that they had found out as that they had failed." Taim later told him to 
kill Rand in Far Madding, presumably when it was determined that that 
was where Rand had gone. Then, later, Demandred repeated the order, and 
"added that it would be better they died than let themselves be discovered 
again." This is the same sentiment expressed by Taim. However, the thought 
continues, saying "[discovered] By anyone, including the M'Hael, as if he 
did not know of Taim's order." 

So, if Taim is Dem, why would he give the same order twice, and 
specifically forbid Kisman from letting Taim know about it? This, I think, 
is strong evidence against the Taimandred theory, although I suppose it 
could be argued that Taimandred was trying to cover his tracks, in case 
Kisman was captured and questioned. 

The second evidence is from the very end. Demandred is running through the 
woods near Shadar Logoth, and runs across Flinn's group. He does not 
recognise Flinn as one of the Asha'man from Rand's personal entourage. One 
would expect Taim to recognise _those_ AM, although since there are about 
500 Asha'man, I wouldn't expect every one of them to be immediately 
recognisable to the mighty M'Hael. He only catches a glimpse of Flinn, 
through the trees, before he starts channelling at Dem, so I suppose it is 
possible that he didn't get a good enough look to place him. OTOH, he got 
a good enough look at Flinn's companions to note that they were 
good-looking, so maybe not. 

Okay, so if Taim is Taim, then where is Demandred?  I think he may still be 
with the Asha'man, and working with Taim. Here's why:

1) The fact that Kisman expects Demandred to know of Taim's order is proof 
positive that Taim is a Darkfriend, if nothing else. However, Kisman isn't 
surprised that Moridin, who also gave him orders, apparently didn't know of 
Taim's or Dem's orders. So, possibly, Kisman expects Demandred to know what 
Taim is up to, because he knows that Taim and Dem associate with one 
another. 

2) All the oddities that indicate that Taim might be a Forsaken (remarks like 
"so-called Aiel," his extensive knowledge of channelling and the training 
of channellers, etc) are still there. If Taim is not Forsaken, then 
wherefore all these little discrepancies? The easiest answer is that he's 
been spending a lot of time with a Forsaken, who taught him, and whose 
attitudes have rubbed off on him. 

3) During the Forsaken Coffee Hour, Aran'gar comments that Osan'gar and 
Demandred were responsible for keeping an eye on Rand.  The best place in 
Rand's vicinity to hide a male channeller is among the Asha'man. 

4) Sammael's comment that Demandred always likes to work through proxies. 
If Dem is working through a proxy in the case of keeping an eye on Rand, 
I'd say that Taim is the most proxy-looking guy around. 

5) Non-recognition of Flinn. If this is evidence that Taim is not Dem, it 
is also evidence that Dem is not somebody who Rand sees a lot, since Flinn 
was part of Rand's personal retinue. Since Dem is supposedly in a postion 
to keep an eye on Rand, he must be associated with one of Rand's important 
forces, so that is either the Asha'man or the Aiel, and Dem really doesn't 
seem to be the Aiel type.

---

SURVIVAL POTENTIAL:

So, who survived that battle at the end? Most of 'em, IMO. I think RJ
even tells us so. Dashiva/Osan'gar/Aginor is beyond toast-- he's fine,
greasy ash blowing over the forests of northern Andor. Moghedien was
watching events from atop a hill, and clearly survived the various
battles; she notes the dying-down of the OP battles. The last we see
of her is getting blown around by the wind generated by the implosion
of the black dome around SL. She _could_ be dead, but without seeing a
body, I'll assume she's not. As for the rest, Cadsuane thinks that she
"did not like losing two people in return for no more than a few
singed Forsaken and one dead renegade." So, none of the defenders
reported doing anything worse than "singing" the Forsaken, which leads
me to conclude that they all survived.

---

That's it for the Forsaken, now for the other baddies:

SLAYER: 

Well, he is much more complex than most of us ever thought.  Turns out that 
he is not Isam in Luc's body, but is really Isam AND Luc.  I wonder if Luc 
was a Darkfriend before Gitara Moroso sent him to the Blight.  He also 
seems to have some special power to enter and leave TAR at will.  He's also 
the culprit in a couple of unsolved murders: the Grey Man in TDR, and the 
two BA in the dungeon of the Stone in TSR. He is also known to all the 
Forsaken.  Given this history, and his special powers, he is now a 
non-loony candidate for Asmodean's murder.  More likely than either Lanfear 
or Graendal, IMO.

I do NOT think that Slayer killed Ispan and Adeleas, though. There'd be no 
need for the poison tea.

BLACK AJAH:

Well, we now know a lot more about BA and Warders. BA _can_ have Warders. 
Some of those Warders are Darkfriends, and apparently the BA have a 
variation on the Warder Bond that makes non-Black Warders obedient and 
easily manipulated. 

We also have a better idea of who did kill Ispan and Adeleas. From the two 
BA sections (the bit with Asne, Chesmal, and Temaile, and the bit with 
Shiane and Marillin Gamelphin), we know that one of the AS with El and Ny 
is Black Ajah. Occam's Razor tells us that this BA is the killer. (The 
candidates are Vandene, Merilille, Sareitha, and Careane.) My only doubt 
comes from the fact that Darkfriend Kin were ruled out too quickly. 

Elza: one of the pathetic bunch who were brainwashed by Verin and who 
swore to Rand in TPOD, turns out to be a Darkfriend. That's some good  
brainwashing on Verin's part! I wonder if Verin knows she's Black.

Speaking of Verin, she looked like she was going to poison Cadsuane. It's 
unclear to me whether she did it or not. I'm guessing not, because 
Cadsuane is not dead, nor did she writhe on the floor to swear fealty to 
Rand. But, what is it that changed Verin's mind? If Verin knows about the 
BA, surely she knows, or has figured out, that the BA can lie.

-pam

---

From: [email-masked] (John S. Novak, III)
Date: 12 Nov 2000 23:42:38 GMT

>MY threads, so I can find them easily.

Heh.
It peeves me that about three seconds after I posted my reviews, I
realized that I forgot to include my name in the title of the thread
for easy reference.

(No, I'm not above starting my own vanity thread, I just forgot. I did
it last time, I think.)

Spoilers:


>Forsaken Coffee Hour in WH, they speak openly of killing Rand. 

I think it was a circumstance limited thing, with Ishamael having the
authority to change the ircumstances as he sees fit.  This meshes with
the idea that Ishamael knows more details of the Dark One's intent
than anyone else (hence his being Nae'blis) and the idea that the Dark
One has varying victory conditions and goals.  His highest victory
probably includes turning Rand, but failing that, killing him is a
lesser victory.

>wouldn't have been able to gather them in.

It may also signify a slight change of plan on Jordan's part-- this
time, a change toward wrapping things up.  Initially, Moghedien seemed
to have absolutely no idea who or what Aran'gar was, and that seemed
to argue that transmigrated Forsaken were kep secret from the living
ones.

I was mildly surprised by that turn-around, that now everyone knows
who they are and that they're out in the open.  So to speeak.

>RAHVIN, BEL'AL, ASMODEAN: Still dead. 

appily so.

>trying to kill Rand, and had not been forbidden from doing so. 

Apparently.
This is sort of annoying, as I had read the proscription against
killing Rand as having been firm, until Ishamael learned he was trying
to cleanse saidin.

>It seemed 
>is/was the Limper of the Forsaken.  
            ^^^^^^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^^^^^^

Great minds think alike.

>He's managed to get killed TWICE. I 
>wonder if the DO will bother resurrecting him again. 

Let's hope not.

>I must say that the 

Perhaps there wasn't enough equipment.

>she is working on Egwene. If she's Compelling her or something, it is very 

Other people have pointed to her rapid about-face regarding the Oaths
as one indication.  I think I am convinced by that-- the Oaths provide
excellent camoflage (literally) for the Dark Oaths of the Black Ajah.

>brilliant strategy off-screen, and will end up Nae'blis after all.

Well, she seemed to have picked up Jain Charin.
And she's one of three Forsaken thus far who haven't been killed or
had a near death experience somewhere along the line.  She can't be
too stupid.

>demonstrate to the Chosen that _they_ need to take Rand more seriously? 

That's an interesting thought.
It could be just another chopping away at the chaff.  
He wasn't sorry to see Aginor go the first time, either.

>the Aelfinn and Eelfinn had held her." 

More interesting was the disbelief, the thought that that was
impossible.  

>is getting her butt kicked at Shadar Logoth. 

Well, I think the reason she was missing is because she knws there's
both a purge going on, and an army approaching the Tower.  Hence, the
desire to avoid anything suspicious.

But there are exactly three places that are going to _immeiately_ be
sent into convulsions over what happened at Shadar Logoth, and two of
them concern Mesaana directly.  One is the Black Tower.  The other two
are the White Tower and the Little Tower, both of which she needs to
worry about.  

(Obviously, the damane/suldam communities, the Wise Ones, and the
Windfinders will go bonkers, too, but they're less geographically
concentrated than the first three.)

>Shows up at the end, stays out of the fight. 

And apparently, is no longer afraid.

>sent Slayer to kill Rand and Min in Far Madding.

I resign myself to looney theory-dom that Isam's boss on that was Taim.

>The description, personality, and situation all match up. Poor, poor Mat. 

I wonder if she takes his eye out?

>with the Asha'man, and working with Taim. Here's why:

I find it easy to believe he's working with Taim, but not as easy to
believe that he's just one of the Asha'man.

Are you working up to the idea that Demandred is Mishraile, and that
he's giving Taim lessons rather than the other way around?

[...]

Ah, you're not.
Well, put that down as my guess:

Not convinced Demandred is posing as an Asha'man, but if he is, it's
Mishraile.

>even tells us so.

I agree.
Everyone but the Limper.

>brainwashing on Verin's part! I wonder if Verin knows she's Black.

Elza was also worked over by the Aiel.
She had two brainwashing teams on her.

And I doubt Verin knew she was Black Ajah.

--
John S. Novak, III		[email-masked]
The Humblest Man on the Net

---

From: John Hamby <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 19:13:04 -0500

"P. Korda" wrote:

Spoilers

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> wouldn't have been able to gather them in.

While Moridin seems to have a clear idea as to
where the others all are (as seen through his
thoughts in TPOD), the ingathering that introduced
them all to one another seems to have happened
rather quickly.

Even though Mesaana is never seen, we know that
she has met Cyndane at some point.   The question
is before Graendal was taken under Moridin's command
in TPOD or after?

> she is working on Egwene. If she's Compelling her or something, it is very

The time frame is rather screwy for TPOD and WH.
The meeting between the Forsaken is before Egwene
takes charge of the Hall with her Law of War, right?
So Halima's certainty is possibly Jordan's attempt at
once more illustrating how foolishly over confident
his characters can be.

> brilliant strategy off-screen, and will end up Nae'blis after all.

I wonder how much control Moridin has
over the Seanchan.  Consider that Semirhage
has been with Tuon, leaving Suroth fully in
charge and seemingly without direct Forsaken
guidance unless from Moridin.

The reason I find this interesting is that
while there are all kins of 'rumors' out
of Arad Doman, there is no press by the
Seanchan to take Almoth Plain or Arad
Doman.  Could this b, in part, due to Graendal's
presence there in some way?

> demonstrate to the Chosen that _they_ need to take Rand more seriously?

This seemed very odd as none of the others really seemed to
know where and what the others were doing.  The largest amount
of saidin and saidar to ever be wielded and none of the Forsaken
go in linked?!?!  If preventing the removal of the taint is paramount
and Rand is no longer sacrosanct, then why not gate in every
Black sister or Darkfriend Asha'man?  Poor planning indeed.

> it was the result of a Finn wish, how did they manage it?

Lanfear's return as Cyndane is rather perplexing in the
'how' dept.  Did the finn lower her level of strength?  Did
the DO as punishment?  Why is she in a new body if she
needed her abilities Healed?  Aginor did not seem to be
impaired in any way the second time around.

> is getting her butt kicked at Shadar Logoth.

That and perhaps meeting Halima.  Which could be a
matter that could become very important if Moridin
has a clue as to where Egwene is heading and how.

> Temaile Kinderode) spying on the Wonder Girls in TAR.

I agree that Sammael is the first person.  As to the second,
I need to re-read to get a feel as to who it might be.

> The description, personality, and situation all match up. Poor, poor Mat.

I feel so vindicated as to my prediction that Semirhage is
the woman in Egwene's Dream.

> Kisman was captured and questioned.

I don't think this can hold much water
for those trying to still prove Taim is Demandred.
Why go to the effort of creating confusion to avoid
discovery when all you have to do is stick with one
known persona and never show the other.  Why,
if Tam, would Demandred ever reveal himself
as Demandred to Kisman?

> good-looking, so maybe not.

Also Demandred seems rather shocked not just
that he is suddenly facing an Asha'man, but that the
_old man_ was an Asha'man.  Almost as if he did not
realize that such did and could exist.

> Taim is up to, because he knows that Taim and Dem associate with one

Either that or Kisman knows who Demandred is posing
as and therefore expects him to be in the know due to
this position.  Perhaps as another Asha'man.

Problem is that Demandred seems just as
surprised that Flinn could be an Asha'man
due to his age.  That seems to reveal an ignorance
of who makes up the ranks of the Black Tower.

Just to continue to play devil's advocate:, it
could be that Demandred does know that
old men can make up the ranks of the Asha'man;
he is just surprised that there is one with Rand.
This in part may be based on thinking he
knows just where all the Asha'man are.

But it also means that his knowledge stems
>from an association begun _after_ Dumai's
Wells and Flinn going off with Rand.

> attitudes have rubbed off on him.

Slightly loony theory resurrected.  I once said that if
Taim is not Demandred (this after the release of NS),
it may be possible that Taim is the rumored
male channeler everyone talks about when Lan
enters Canluum.  Yes I know that the rumors are
probably due to the Black Ajah hunting down the
men etc.  But Taim would be about fifteen and Ishamael
is about to re-enter the picture.  Re-entering and discovering
that the DR is born again.  Makes for an interesting scenario.
Ishamidin stops the BA purge and takes Taim under his
wing to teach him.

Taim could also be Sammael (a bit far fetched but there
it is).

> seem to be the Aiel type.

True he does not.  Weiramon might also
be a candidate.  Weiramon makes many
seemingly idiotic suggestions that would only
end up in decimating Rand's forces and
ruining his plans.  A little too stupid is our
good friend Weiramon?

However Demandred among the Tairens is
a little too overkill what with Be'lal there in
the beginning.

> me to conclude that they all survived.

Definitely.  The ending was so slightly ambiguous that
I certainly don't hope Jordan thinks he has to play
'are they or aren't they' with us another book or so.

> non-loony candidate for Asmodean's murder.  More likely than either Lanfear

If so then Jordan has played fast and loose with us.
There is nothing in the first five books or even any
of the others until now that make Slayer the obvious
candidate, imo.  I think Graendal is still the lead
contender.

As to the symbiosis of Luc and Isam?  I am still
a bit baffled at what Jordan is going for.  He clearly
states that one is DEAD.  Period.  So how Luc shows
up in T.A.R. is a bit of a mystery.

However, Temaile seems to think that Slayer
revealed himself on purpose.  Is he going to
show up as Luc in the waking world in Caemlyn
to get closer to Elayne somehow?  The long lost
Luc Mantear could be a strong political presence
in light of the situation Elayne faces.  So maybe
Isam only took on Luc's features for some
purpose and not because he actually exists
as such.

A re-read is definitely necessary.

> comes from the fact that Darkfriend Kin were ruled out too quickly.

However the ignorance to the location of the
Kin's cache in the Rahad seems to support the
idea that no DF were among the Kin prior to
the trip to the farm.  Whether one was picked up
there is possible.  However none of the Kin that
were picked up from the farm in the flight to
Andor could be the murderer imo.

> BA, surely she knows, or has figured out, that the BA can lie.

I doubt that Verin has a clue as to Elza's
affiliation or otherwise she might have eliminated
her.  Verin's thoughts in TPOD, seem to point to
her knowing Katerine was and regretting not
killing her.  I doubt she would let Elza live
were she to suspect.

---
JSH

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From: John Hamby <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 19:13:04 -0500

"P. Korda" wrote:

Spoilers

protection

added

for

your

comfort

and

enjoyment

courtesy

---
JSH

---

From: [email-masked] (John S. Novak, III)
Date: 12 Nov 2000 23:42:38 GMT

Heh.

Spoilers:


appily so.

Apparently.

            ^^^^^^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^^^^^^

Great minds think alike.

Let's hope not.

[...]

Ah, you're not.

I agree.
Everyone but the Limper.