From wtodd@clemson.edu Fri Nov 10 19:34:16 CST 2000 Article: 456012 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc01.blue.aol.com!pitt.edu!gatech!hubcap.clemson.edu!not-for-mail From: wtodd@clemson.edu (Billy Todd) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: What? A WH FAQ Update Already? (SPOILERS) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 09:27:54 GMT Organization: Clemson University Lines: 265 Message-ID: <3a0cb543.20044388@news.clemson.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 172-16-27-39.generic.clemson.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: hubcap.clemson.edu 973848344 25942 172.16.27.39 (10 Nov 2000 09:25:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@hubcap.clemson.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Nov 2000 09:25:44 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:456012 In my zeal and desire to not work on homework I've combed through the FAQ and updated things that can pretty safely and without much thought be brought up to Winter's Heart. In case you're an idiot: THERE ARE SPOILERS IN THIS POST There. Here we go. This isn't intended to be official or anything. Just an overall sketch of facts. I'll leave it to others or myself in the future to work on the prose. FAQ UPDATE: 1.1.1 Forsaken: Aginor: Clearly, without question, Dashiva. Pretty surely killed by Elza. (WH, 645; WH, 653). Demandred: Probably not Taim after all, since he didn't know some of the Asha'man. (WH, 644). Lanfear: Clearly Cyndane. (WH, 649) This is beyond doubt. Sammael: May or may not be ordering Slayer around. Semirhage: Clearly Anath, advisor to Tuon, the DotNM. (Numerous descriptions in WH). 1.1.5 Sammael may be Slayer's master. (WH, 449). Whichever of the Chosen he is, he is trying desperately not to be known. Sounds in keeping with Sammael's current hiding strategy. Also in keeping with his "Kill Rand" strategy as well. 1.1.6 Evidence in WH mounts against the Taimandred theory. He doesn't recognize the Asha'man at the end (WH, 644). Kisman, one of the Renegade Asha'man, recieved the order to kill Rand in Cairhien _before_ Demandred received the OK from Moridin. (WH, 441-2). If we posit that Sammael is alive (and ordering Slayer) then Taim could be under _Sammael_'s thumb. 1.1.7 Slayer: We now know that Slayer does in fact do hits for the Chosen (WH 449), meaning he could have pulled the trigger at, say, Graendal's behest. We also know that he can, for all practical purposes, Gate to and fro via T'A'R like Egwene did in LoC. (WH, 448). I think this is clearly enough to put him back into the Suspect category at the very least. Lanfear/Cyndane: Cyndane's WH POVs indicate she was "held" by the *Finn (WH, 649). Since Asmo was killed the _day_ she disappeared, I would consider her to be excluded, finally. 1.1.8 Lanfear/Cyndane: Cyndane's WH POV clearly indicates she wants Rand to die. (WH, 649). 1.2.1 Osan'gar is/was Dashiva. (WH, 645) 1.2.2 ObAaron: Yes. (WH, 645). 1.2.4: Who is Moridin? He's fucking Ishy, ok? Demandred doesn't think Moridin is any saner than he was before he got his new body. He likes to kill rats. Demandred is also thinking of a way to keep him from reincarnating _again_. Balefire? 1.3.7 We now know that Blacks can hide their Evil Deeds by masking the bond for a little while. 1.4.2 : Slayer We now also know that Slayer is something of an Uber-Hitman for the Dark. He gates in and out of T'A'R at will. He is spying in Cairhien when the Wonder Girls meet for a T'A'R pow-wow. He's eager to kill Rand and Min at the behest of an unknown Forsaken. The Isam/Luc shift seems to be instantaneous, random, and not limited to whether or not he's in T'A'R. 1.5.4 Sheriam Well, now we know that Slayer killed at least one of the Grey Men. Did Slayer notify her? This has established a connection, however tenuous, between Slayer and Sheriam. Could he be the one visiting her and beating her up? He can't channel though. 1.5.6: Who's not a DF? Add Verin and Cadsuane. (WH, 495; WH, Entire last chapter.) 1.6.1: Fain. Fain and Toram Riatin show up in Far Madding. Fain kills Kisman and is defeated in a scuffle with Rand. He, of course, escapes. Riatin is presumably killed by Lan in a fight so easy it didn't even get more than a sentence in the book. 2.1.1 Mat's Ring. I betcha 5 Tar Valon gold pieces that Mat doesn't get dug out from under the wall by Seanchan. Time to delete that paragraph. 2.2.3: The Old Ebou Dari geezer Jain Farstrider anyone? More and more evidence in WH. Noal is clearly the same man. He's widely traveled and tells stories very well. He knows about Gholam. He knows about Shadar Logoth. He claims to have been to Shara, enough to make (IIRC) Thom half-believe it. 2.2.4: Setalle Anan She can't channel. The adam didn;t work for her in WH. She's also very hellbent on helping free Aes Sedai from the sul'dam. Sounds like she's burnt out. 2.2.7: Verin Black? No. By the Light, if we don't know now, we never will. WH is chock full of "Verin is a good person! Really!" anecdotes. Chief among them: Not poisoning Cadsuane. Runner up: Not killing Rand. 2.3.02 The Sad Bracelets. Dammit. They're back in enemy hands. In Suroth's hands. And thusly in Semirhage's hands. Good job, Bayle. 2.3.03 Effects of the Oath Rod. OATH ROD = AGELESS LOOK! was the verdict arrived at by the wondergirls. (WH 238). Egwene is adamant that she and all other Aes Sedai will still swear on it though. 2.3.13: Cadsuane's Hair Thingy Her hair thingy is mentioned again in WH (page 631). Elza believes that Cadsuane must possess an angreal of some kind due to the amount of power she's channeling (WH 639). This is confirmed on page 642: "Without the aid of the angreal that looked like a shrike hanging from her bun, she would not have been able to hold the shield up." Sounds like that settles it. 2.4.4: Where is Jain Farstrider? Sounds like he's Noal. 2.5.2: Who is Julin's honey? It's Amathera alright. WH, 574: "Right now, Juilin would be making his way to his precious Thera." 2.5.3: Who is the DotNM? I nominate this question being removed from the FAQ in protest. We've known fordamnever that the DotNM is Seanchan, and now, by the Light, it cannot possibly be any clearer. WH, 588: "It's death by slow torture to lay hands on the DotNM!" This after Mat has tied her up. Can't get any clearer than this, folks. Anybody _still_ want to say it's Berelain? 2.5.7: Is Avi pregnant? Doesn't look like it, but Min has forseen children for her - quadruplets. That's some seed there, Rand! Oddly enough, Min has forseen twins for Elayne but not necessarily any for herself. (WH, 294-5). 2.6.1: Whassup with Callandor? Sure enough, Jahar Narishma _does_ use Callandor in defense of the cleansing operation. (WH, 642). Does this qualify as "following after" after having been the one "who draws it out"? 2.6.6: What was going on at the end of PoD? Clearly Taim ordered the attack. We know this from Kisman's own POV. (WH, 441). What is not mentioned is Dashiva's role in the attack, only that he had vanished afterward. That makes sense since: Dashiva was Osangar the whole time. He planned to kill Rand before Moridin's OK as well. Which raises the question: Why? And if Sammael and Osan'gar, why not Demandred too? 2.7.5 The anchor on chapter 21. Egeanin? The flag of Far Madding: Chapter 23 and others. The bird of chapter 6 and others. Berelain, or Manetheren? 3.05: Anath 4.01: Egwene's dreams: Mat has now met up with the Seanchan. Mat has again met up with Aludra and is getting along with her quite well. "Rand confronting [Egwene], and the women with her, and one of them was a Seanchan." - could this be Alivia, the newfound (and, oddly, highly trusted) former damane? Egeanin? "Mat wrestling with a Seanchan woman who tied an invisible leash to him" - He does physically wrestle/fight with Tuon to subdue her in the escape. And clearly she will "leash" him. Matt again: "In another, a woman, face shrouded in shadow, beckoned him toward great danger; Egwene did not know what, only that it was monstrous. " Anath/Semirhage? "Elayne and Min and Aviendha, sitting in a silent circle around him, each in turn reaching out to lay a hand on him." Sounds like the bonding ceremony to me. "Mat sat on a night-shrouded hilltop, watching a grand Illuminator's display of fireworks, and suddenly his hand shot up, seized one of those bursting lights in the sky. Arrows of fire flashed from his clenched fist, and a sense of dread filled her. Men would die because of this. The world would change." - See also: Aludra chapters in WH. "Mat, weighing two Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended....She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps. " - the rescue of the Aes Sedai in WH? The mystery of who wrote the letter? 4.02 Min's Viewings: EDESINA: "[...] a silvery collar suddenly appeared, snug around the woman's neck, and as suddenly seemed to shatter. Min shivered. She did not like viewings connected to the Seanchan. At least Edesina would escape somehow." Matt escapes with her in WH. 4.05: The Karaetheon Cycle: Moiraine: "....What 'wound of madness and cutting of hope' has he healed? " Clearly this referes to the taint. Does that satisfy the cutting of hope as well? That's it so far. I'm sure once the dust settles we'll have a more elaborate "Slayer killed Asmo" argument as well as a more clearly laid out "No, dammit, It. Was. Not. Lanfear." essay. Some of the prophecy may have slipped through but I don't think so. The exact goings on of the TPOD Palace Kegger Crashing may still need to be sorted out. The more I think about it, the more I wonder how conclusive the anti-Taimandred evidence is in WH. Only the "He's an Asha'man?!!" reaction from Demandred at the end serves as any real, concrete evidence for me. Not that such evidence is insignificant. Anything anyone think I left out? Anything inaccurate? Am I a bit presumptuous to post such a document? Who cares. Here it is. ---------------------- Billy Todd WTodd@Clemson.edu "But with help from the 'people' in rasfwr-j, I'm sure we can sink lower than whale shit."-Reverend Sean O'Hara From kor2@midway.uchicago.edu Fri Nov 10 19:34:37 CST 2000 Article: 456366 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!not-for-mail Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: What? A WH FAQ Update Already? (SPOILERS) References: <3a0cb543.20044388@news.clemson.edu> Organization: *sniff* X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: kor2@midway.uchicago.edu (P. Korda) Lines: 182 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 973906447 128.135.12.7 (Fri, 10 Nov 2000 19:34:07 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 19:34:07 CST Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 01:34:07 GMT Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:456366 In article <3a0cb543.20044388@news.clemson.edu>, Billy Todd wrote: >In my zeal and desire to not work on homework I've combed >through the FAQ and updated things that can pretty safely >and without much thought be brought up to Winter's Heart. Bless your little heart. And I see you included page numbers, too. > >In case you're an idiot: > >THERE > > > > > >ARE > > > > > >SPOILERS >1.1.5 >Sammael may be Slayer's master. (WH, 449). Whichever of the Chosen he >is, he is trying desperately not to be known. Sounds in keeping with >Sammael's current hiding strategy. Also in keeping with his "Kill >Rand" strategy as well. Agreed. I have not seen this brought up in the posts I've read, but it seemed pretty obvious to me. Who else among the Forsaken would need to hide his identity, and not want the others to know anything about him? Moridishy is already the Main Man, Demandred clearly has his own channels for Rand-killing, and Osan'gar is just too lame. Question is: does Moridin know that Sam is not dead? If so, does Sam know that he knows? >Evidence in WH mounts against the Taimandred theory. He doesn't >recognize the Asha'man at the end (WH, 644). Kisman, one of the >Renegade Asha'man, recieved the order to kill Rand in Cairhien >_before_ Demandred received the OK from Moridin. (WH, 441-2). >If we posit that Sammael is alive (and ordering Slayer) then Taim >could be under _Sammael_'s thumb. No, I don't think so. If Taim is not Demandred himself, I think that he is working for/with Dem. (Will post more on this later.) I don't think Taim is under _anybody's_ thumb, that's for sure. He is evil out of his own free will >Lanfear/Cyndane: Cyndane's WH POVs indicate she was "held" by the >*Finn (WH, 649). Since Asmo was killed the _day_ she disappeared, I >would consider her to be excluded, finally. Good point. Although I will probably leave her there, just because old theories never die. >1.2.4: Who is Moridin? >He's fucking Ishy, ok? Demandred doesn't think Moridin is any saner >than he was before he got his new body. He likes to kill rats. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ And that is a conclusive piece of evidence which I didn't even notice. :) >2.1.1 Mat's Ring. >I betcha 5 Tar Valon gold pieces that Mat doesn't get dug out from >under the wall by Seanchan. Time to delete that paragraph. Oh, bite me. >2.2.4: Setalle Anan >She can't channel. The adam didn;t work for her in WH. She's also very >hellbent on helping free Aes Sedai from the sul'dam. Sounds like she's >burnt out. Yes. We only know of five categories of channelling status: 1) able channellers, 2) stilled channellers, 3) burned-out channellers, 4) trainable channellers, and 5) non-channellers. We have seen other instances of 1, 2, and 4 connected to the bracelet end of the a'dam, and the Seanchan have plenty of exeperience with 5. None of them produce the kind of seizure Joline had when SA wore the a'dam. The only other option is 3. >2.5.3: Who is the DotNM? >I nominate this question being removed from the FAQ in protest. We've Well, it will be, but bit in protest, but because it is answered explicitly in the book. Likewise Dashiva. >2.5.7: Is Avi pregnant? >Doesn't look like it, but Min has forseen children for her - Avi is DEFINITELY not pregnant. From Nynaeve's Delving of Rand in WH, we know just how thorough an examination that is. Ny Delved Avi at the start of TPOD, after the Gateway exploded. She'd have noticed a pregnancy. Not to mention, the "woman pregnant with Rand's baby" plot potential is filled by Elayne. Having Avi pregnant would just be redundant. >quadruplets. That's some seed there, Rand! Oddly enough, Min has >forseen twins for Elayne but not necessarily any for herself. (WH, >294-5). Well, Min doesn't have viewings of herself. >2.6.6: What was going on at the end of PoD? >Clearly Taim ordered the attack. We know this from Kisman's own POV. >(WH, 441). What is not mentioned is Dashiva's role in the attack, only >that he had vanished afterward. That makes sense since: >Dashiva was Osangar the whole time. He planned to kill Rand before >Moridin's OK as well. Which raises the question: Why? And if Sammael >and Osan'gar, why not Demandred too? As I said, I think Dem is handling Taim, even if he is not Taim himself. >2.7.5 >The anchor on chapter 21. Egeanin? >The flag of Far Madding: Chapter 23 and others. >The bird of chapter 6 and others. Berelain, or Manetheren? Faile. The bitch finally has her own icon. >"Rand confronting [Egwene], and the women with her, and one of them >was a Seanchan." - could this be Alivia, the newfound (and, oddly, >highly trusted) former damane? Egeanin? Probably Alivia. >Matt again: "In another, a woman, face shrouded in shadow, beckoned >him toward great danger; Egwene did not know what, only that it was >monstrous. " Anath/Semirhage? Probably. >"Elayne and Min and Aviendha, sitting in a silent circle around him, >each in turn reaching out to lay a hand on him." Sounds like the >bonding ceremony to me. Oh, I hadn't even though of that. Good call. >"Mat, weighing two Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on >his decision depended....She could not say what; something vast; the >world, perhaps. " - the rescue of the Aes Sedai in WH? The mystery of >who wrote the letter? Well, I don't think this has happenned yet. He will probably have to choose to save one of the AS and not the other, in the future. >4.02 Min's Viewings: >EDESINA: "[...] a silvery collar suddenly appeared, snug around the >woman's neck, and as suddenly seemed to shatter. Min shivered. She did >not like viewings connected to the Seanchan. At least Edesina would >escape somehow." Matt escapes with her in WH. Not yet. We last saw them all hanging out in the Tarasin Palace. There is still plenty of potential for them to not escape. (I think they will, though. That's the only way Mat will be able to get to know the Daughter. >The more I think about it, the more I wonder how conclusive the >anti-Taimandred evidence is in WH. Only the "He's an Asha'man?!!" >reaction from Demandred at the end serves as any real, concrete >evidence for me. Not that such evidence is insignificant. I actually think that the multiple orders to Kisman is stronger anti-Taimandred evidence. Failure to recognise Flinn can be put down to there being 500 Asha'man, and that Flinn was not dressed in uniform, and that Dem saw him through heavy woods. >Anything anyone think I left out? Well, if you get bored, you can always list the new prophecies >from WH, with page numbers. --pam From johnj@idf.centerpartners.com Sat Nov 11 00:42:27 CST 2000 Article: 456485 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!logbridge.uoregon.edu!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!207.108.230.1!not-for-mail From: "John Johnson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: What? A WH FAQ Update Already? (SPOILERS) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 23:04:55 -0700 Lines: 316 Message-ID: <8uinl8$23hgs$1@ID-53489.news.dfncis.de> References: <3a0cb543.20044388@news.clemson.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.108.230.1 X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 973922793 2213404 207.108.230.1 (16 [53489]) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:456485 "Billy Todd" wrote in message news:3a0cb543.20044388@news.clemson.edu... > In my zeal and desire to not work on homework I've combed > through the FAQ and updated things that can pretty safely > and without much thought be brought up to Winter's Heart. > > In case you're an idiot: > > THERE > > > > > > ARE > > > > > > SPOILERS > > > > > > > IN > > > > > THIS > > > POST > > There. > > Here we go. This isn't intended to be official or anything. Just > an overall sketch of facts. I'll leave it to others or myself > in the future to work on the prose. > > FAQ UPDATE: > 1.1.1 Forsaken: > > Aginor: Clearly, without question, Dashiva. Pretty surely killed by > Elza. (WH, 645; WH, 653). I don't think that there's really any doubt that he's not toast. > Demandred: Probably not Taim after all, since he didn't know some of > the Asha'man. (WH, 644). Agreed. > Lanfear: Clearly Cyndane. (WH, 649) This is beyond doubt. Her PoV, plus that of Graendal?(Can't remember now, the scene where the Forsaken meet to plan the attack) indicate such. > Sammael: May or may not be ordering Slayer around. I think that one candidate for Slayer's boss is Moridin, who seems to be pulling all the strings lately. > Semirhage: Clearly Anath, advisor to Tuon, the DotNM. (Numerous > descriptions in WH). I don't think there's any real doubt on this one either, even though I completely missed it the first time around. > > 1.1.6 > Evidence in WH mounts against the Taimandred theory. He doesn't > recognize the Asha'man at the end (WH, 644). Kisman, one of the > Renegade Asha'man, recieved the order to kill Rand in Cairhien > _before_ Demandred received the OK from Moridin. (WH, 441-2). > If we posit that Sammael is alive (and ordering Slayer) then Taim > could be under _Sammael_'s thumb. Whoever Demandred is, he's obviously someplace where he can keep an eye on Rand. Now that the ability to invert a weave so that no other channeler can discover it, it's quite possible that Demandred is disguised as somebody else. > 1.1.7 > Slayer: We now know that Slayer does in fact do hits for the Chosen > (WH 449), meaning he could have pulled the trigger at, say, Graendal's > behest. We also know that he can, for all practical purposes, Gate to > and fro via T'A'R like Egwene did in LoC. (WH, 448). I think this > is clearly enough to put him back into the Suspect category at the > very least. This would definitely place him in the suspect list. He's known to the Forsaken as a hit man, whose speciality is taking care of traitors, he has the power to apper and re-appear, and it seems that he's not above taking special requests from those who aren't his current employer. Asmodean would know this, and the sudden appearance of Slayer in Caemlyn would be more than enough to warran Asmo's response. > Lanfear/Cyndane: Cyndane's WH POVs indicate she was "held" by the > *Finn (WH, 649). Since Asmo was killed the _day_ she disappeared, I > would consider her to be excluded, finally. > > 1.1.8 > Lanfear/Cyndane: Cyndane's WH POV clearly indicates she wants Rand to > die. (WH, 649). She may still be around. There isn't enough evidence in WH to point towards her death. > 1.2.1 > Osan'gar is/was Dashiva. (WH, 645) The only Forsaken who we know is toast. > 1.3.7 > We now know that Blacks can hide their Evil Deeds by masking the bond > for a little while. I wouldn't be surprised if they used a bit of Compulsion as well, similar to what Verin used. > 1.4.2 : Slayer > We now also know that Slayer is something of an Uber-Hitman for the > Dark. He gates in and out of T'A'R at will. He is spying in Cairhien > when the Wonder Girls meet for a T'A'R pow-wow. He's eager to kill > Rand and Min at the behest of an unknown Forsaken. The Isam/Luc shift > seems to be instantaneous, random, and not limited to whether or not > he's in T'A'R. Actually it appears as if he's Isam in T'A'R and Luc in the real world, or rather that in T'A'R, he can be who he wants, but in the real world he becomes Luc. "He could not use Tel'aran'rhiod the way the Chosen could, but here was where he felt most free. Here, he could be who he wanted to be." (Out of Thin Air, pg 448 Tor edition) "Stopping beside the bed, he carefully unsheathed the two poisoned daggers and stepped out of the Unseen World in to the waking. AS he did, he became Luc. It seemed appropiate." (Out of Thin Air, pg 449 Tor edition) > 1.6.1: Fain. > Fain and Toram Riatin show up in Far Madding. Fain kills Kisman and is > defeated in a scuffle with Rand. He, of course, escapes. Riatin is > presumably killed by Lan in a fight so easy it didn't even get more > than a sentence in the book. Does this make Toram a Darkfriend, or simply a stooge? Also, how has the destruction of Shadar Logoth and the Taint affected Fain? There seems to be a few different options: 1.)He's around, and as hale and hearty as ever. Not very likely imo. It's hard to imagine that someone who's powers are dependent on Shadar Logoth would be affected by that destruction. 2.)The destruction of Shadar Logoth destroyed him as well. Another unlikely scenario. The destruction of the source of corruption does not necessarily entail the destruction of the effects of the corruption. (I really don't like that sentence but can't describe it any other way.) 3.)He survived, but is weaker. This seems to be the likeliest result. I'm betting that the destruction of Shadar Logoth caused his system quite a bit of shock. 2.1.6: LTT and Rand It definitely appears as if LTT is a separate entity that's merging with Rand. I used to be of the opinion that LTT was a result of the taint, but I appear to have been wrong. Rand's new ability to draw, being able to play songs that he shouldn't, and his comments that LTT seems saner now all indicate that LTT is a separate person. Rand seems to have accepted LTT as a separate entity, while at the same time picking up many of his mannerisms. "The tune was called 'Lament for the Long Night,' and he had never heard it before in his life. Lews Therein had, though. It was like the skill at drawing.Rand thought that should frighten him, or make him angry, but he simply sat and played while Lews Therin wept." (Bonds, pg 481 Tor edition) This raises some other questions: A.How did LTT's soul get into Rand's head? B.Are they going to eventually merge? I.) If so, how? II) If this merger takes place, what result will it have on Rand? How 'bout Min, Elayne, and Avi? Will they be affected still? Heck, would they still be bonded if that happened? On a completely unrelated note, is the bond tied to the body or the soul? And on another compltey unrelated note, did LTT play the flute, or is Rand good enough to be able to play a song after hearing it once? > 2.6.1: Whassup with Callandor? > Sure enough, Jahar Narishma _does_ use Callandor in defense of the > cleansing operation. (WH, 642). Does this qualify as "following after" > after having been the one "who draws it out"? On a related issue, what was up with Elza using saidin? "Dashiva raised his hand toward the hill where she stood, and she drew as hard as she could on Callandor in Jahar's hands. Saidin seemed will suited to destruction, to her. A huge ball of coruscating fire surrounded the other hilltop, red and gold and blue." When the Bowl of Winds was used, saidin was involved, but I thought that was a side effect of the Bowl, not actual usage by Nyn and co. With Elza being able to use saidin, and Rand able to use saidar, does this mean the day will soon come when men and women will be able to draw from both? What if the TP is nothing more than a combination of saidin and saidar? > > 2.7.5 > The anchor on chapter 21. Egeanin? > The flag of Far Madding: Chapter 23 and others. > The bird of chapter 6 and others. Berelain, or Manetheren? > > 3.05: Anath > > 4.01: Egwene's dreams: > Mat has now met up with the Seanchan. > > Mat has again met up with Aludra and is getting along with her quite > well. > > "Rand confronting [Egwene], and the women with her, and one of them > was a Seanchan." - could this be Alivia, the newfound (and, oddly, > highly trusted) former damane? Egeanin? > > "Mat wrestling with a Seanchan woman who tied an invisible leash to > him" - He does physically wrestle/fight with Tuon to subdue her in the > escape. And clearly she will "leash" him. Not only that, but I think she has some ulterior plan going on. From Chapter 31, right after Mat tied her up. "At last, Tuon showed expression. She smiled, as if she suddenly knew a secret. She smiled, and he shivered. Oh, Light, how he shivered." (pg 590 Tor edition) So, what is it that Tuon knows? I'd love to have had her PoV right then. > Matt again: "In another, a woman, face shrouded in shadow, beckoned > him toward great danger; Egwene did not know what, only that it was > monstrous. " Anath/Semirhage? Quite possible. > "Elayne and Min and Aviendha, sitting in a silent circle around him, > each in turn reaching out to lay a hand on him." Sounds like the > bonding ceremony to me. Yup. "Mat being followed by a man who was not there . . .or maybe more than one, but in some way there was no one there." The common interpretation has been that this referred to the Gray Men? What if it actually refers to the gholam? It just seems that the Gray Men really didn't stalk him long enough to warran a Dream about it. The gholam, on the other hand, would. "Rand sitting down in a chair, and somehow she knew that the chair's owner would be murderously angry at having her chair taken." What if this isn't the throne of Andor at all, but the Seanchan throne? I doubt that Elayne would get "murderously angry" over her throne being sat in (especially since she's now bonded to him), but you can bet that the Empress of Seanchan would be. "A dark young man held an object in his hand that shone so brightly that she could not see what it was." Could this possibly be Narishma using Callandor? "Rand, wearing different masks, until suddenly one of those false faces was no longer a mask, but him." With the appearance of that third voice, this could very well refer to him choosing between LTT, that voice, and himself, and eventually becoming all three of them. > 4.02 Min's Viewings: Could Berelain's man in white be the good looking gai'shain that helps Faile? 4.03 Are the prophecies from the *finn folk supposed to happen in the order that they occur? If so, Mat still needs to "live and die and live again" > 4.05: The Karaetheon Cycle: > Moiraine: "....What 'wound of madness and cutting of hope' has he > healed? " Clearly this referes to the taint. Does that satisfy the > cutting of hope as well? I don't think so, but the "bind the nine moons to serve him" could very well refer to him sitting on the Crystal Throne and using it's power of Compulsion on the royal family. -- John Johnson From lparkinson@mindspring.com Sun Nov 12 17:54:21 CST 2000 Article: 457019 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net.MISMATCH!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail From: lparkinson@mindspring.com (Laura M. Parkinson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: What? A WH FAQ Update Already? (SPOILERS) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 07:25:08 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 191 Message-ID: <3a0e3e65.7708913@news.mindspring.com> References: <3a0cb543.20044388@news.clemson.edu> Reply-To: lparkinson@mindspring.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.31.8d.00 X-Server-Date: 12 Nov 2000 07:28:01 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:457019 wtodd@clemson.edu (Billy Todd) rhapsodized in blue: >In my zeal and desire to not work on homework I've combed >through the FAQ and updated things that can pretty safely >and without much thought be brought up to Winter's Heart. > >In case you're an idiot: > >THERE > > > > > >ARE > > > > > >SPOILERS > > > > > > >IN > > > > >THIS > > >POST > >There. >Here we go. This isn't intended to be official or anything. Just >an overall sketch of facts. I'll leave it to others or myself >in the future to work on the prose. And to jump in a bit as well... >FAQ UPDATE: 1.1.2 Mesaana: No real new theories about who she might be, but under evidence/hints, we might be able to add the fact that she doesn't show up either for the big meeting with Moridin and the other Chosen, as well as the fact that she doesn't show up at the big showdown at the end, either. 1.2.3: As far as Egwene's headaches go, it also seems that she may be starting to show the signs of Compulsion. Doing a sudden 180 (for the worse, methinks) on the issue of the Oaths and thereby risking crippling the Aes Sedai, who would be much more effective (and more trustworthy, honestly, IMHO) without them, as well as on some other issues. 1.2.5 as well, obviously... the whole Lanfear/Cyndane thing. 1.3.2: Fifty Ways to Kill a Gholam: I still like the idea of opening up a Gateway on the edge of Far Madding (or even a Stedding) and letting the thing run through... >1.4.2 : Slayer >We now also know that Slayer is something of an Uber-Hitman for the >Dark. He gates in and out of T'A'R at will. He is spying in Cairhien >when the Wonder Girls meet for a T'A'R pow-wow. He's eager to kill >Rand and Min at the behest of an unknown Forsaken. The Isam/Luc shift >seems to be instantaneous, random, and not limited to whether or not >he's in T'A'R. As a quick note, I wouldn't say that the shifting is random, rather that it's under Slayer's will. Also note that we now know (or at least it seems) that he has two personalities that are somewhat blended, rather than just the Isam personality, and that the Luc half seems to be just as twisted and evil. 1.4.8: Who killed Adeleas and Ispan? I'd say that Slayer should be added as at least one of the possible killers, although he'd probably have an accomplice. 1.5.1: Is Aram a Darkfriend? We get at least a bit more view of Aram here, and he seems to be devoted to Perrin, Faile, and Rand... and possibly even to Masema in a way, because of Rand. It's seeming less likely that he's a Darkfriend (although still possible), but we're getting some more alternatives as to how he can spell doom for Perrin... such as he could fall in with the Prophet, in order to help Rand, but end up hurting Perrin instead. (In fact, don't the Aes Sedai and others with Perrin see doom in letting Masema live?) >1.6.1: Fain. >Fain and Toram Riatin show up in Far Madding. Fain kills Kisman and is >defeated in a scuffle with Rand. He, of course, escapes. Riatin is >presumably killed by Lan in a fight so easy it didn't even get more >than a sentence in the book. Also Fain now seems to have at least some form of illusion and/or time re-playing power. 2.1.5: Mat's memories Just to point out, Mat is now apparently regaining at least a few of his memories. (He didn't remember Mordeth's disappearance before, apparently, but recalled it when he saw the gholam stretching out to escape.) >2.2.4: Setalle Anan >She can't channel. The adam didn;t work for her in WH. She's also very >hellbent on helping free Aes Sedai from the sul'dam. Sounds like she's >burnt out. Also remember the weird reaction that she got with the a'dam... 2.3.09: Dreamers and Dreamwalking Should Perrin's soul completely leaving his body when he's searching for Faile be added to this section? 2.3.12: The Weirdness in Ebou Dar Maybe this shouldn't be in the same section since it's not the cause, but from what we see of all the damane/sul'dam stationed in Ebou Dar, is the Weirdness completely done with? Was it just temporary? >2.3.13: Cadsuane's Hair Thingy >Her hair thingy is mentioned again in WH (page 631). Elza believes >that Cadsuane must possess an angreal of some kind due to the amount >of power she's channeling (WH 639). This is confirmed on page 642: >"Without the aid of the angreal that looked like a shrike hanging from >her bun, she would not have been able to hold the shield up." Sounds >like that settles it. Not to mention the other ter'angreal we see... the well, the location-detector for channelers. 2.4.10: Tigraine = Shaiel If we *really* needed any more conformation of this, The "Luc" half of Slayer specifically thinks of killing "his nephew" in Ebou Dar, which would have to be Rand. Thus making Tigraine Rand's mother. 2.7.3: How old is everyone? How old is Jain bloody Farstrider, anyhow, if he took part in the Fall of Malkier, and yet is still wandering around, healthy enough to use knives and fight and be so active? 3.10 Greek and Roman Mythology: Someone else has already pointed out the "Sophia/So'fiea" connection. Also a few things to add, perhaps: -Was Mordeth once a Gholam? -What will be odd about Aviendha's children? (Perhaps this could replace/be right after the "Is Aviendha pregnant?" section... - Is Dyelin for or against Elayne? Also, is there a section (I couldn't find one) gathering specific references toward things that we think will happen? Foreshadowings, and such? Like all the comments about Nynaeve trying to Heal someone "three days dead"? (I ask about this one specifically because on page 214 there is yet another reference, when Halwin Norry says about Rand "I myself would not believe him dead unless I sat three days with the corpse.") -- -'-,-'-<<0 Trickster 0>>-'-,-'- lparkinson@mindspring.com http://lparkinson.home.mindspring.com "Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed." -Richard Adams, Watership Down From lparkinson@mindspring.com Sun Nov 12 18:08:47 CST 2000 Article: 457019 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net.MISMATCH!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail From: lparkinson@mindspring.com (Laura M. Parkinson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: What? A WH FAQ Update Already? (SPOILERS) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 07:25:08 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 191 Message-ID: <3a0e3e65.7708913@news.mindspring.com> References: <3a0cb543.20044388@news.clemson.edu> Reply-To: lparkinson@mindspring.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.31.8d.00 X-Server-Date: 12 Nov 2000 07:28:01 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:457019 wtodd@clemson.edu (Billy Todd) rhapsodized in blue: >In my zeal and desire to not work on homework I've combed >through the FAQ and updated things that can pretty safely >and without much thought be brought up to Winter's Heart. > >In case you're an idiot: > >THERE > > > > > >ARE > > > > > >SPOILERS > > > > > > >IN > > > > >THIS > > >POST > >There. >Here we go. This isn't intended to be official or anything. Just >an overall sketch of facts. I'll leave it to others or myself >in the future to work on the prose. And to jump in a bit as well... >FAQ UPDATE: 1.1.2 Mesaana: No real new theories about who she might be, but under evidence/hints, we might be able to add the fact that she doesn't show up either for the big meeting with Moridin and the other Chosen, as well as the fact that she doesn't show up at the big showdown at the end, either. 1.2.3: As far as Egwene's headaches go, it also seems that she may be starting to show the signs of Compulsion. Doing a sudden 180 (for the worse, methinks) on the issue of the Oaths and thereby risking crippling the Aes Sedai, who would be much more effective (and more trustworthy, honestly, IMHO) without them, as well as on some other issues. 1.2.5 as well, obviously... the whole Lanfear/Cyndane thing. 1.3.2: Fifty Ways to Kill a Gholam: I still like the idea of opening up a Gateway on the edge of Far Madding (or even a Stedding) and letting the thing run through... >1.4.2 : Slayer >We now also know that Slayer is something of an Uber-Hitman for the >Dark. He gates in and out of T'A'R at will. He is spying in Cairhien >when the Wonder Girls meet for a T'A'R pow-wow. He's eager to kill >Rand and Min at the behest of an unknown Forsaken. The Isam/Luc shift >seems to be instantaneous, random, and not limited to whether or not >he's in T'A'R. As a quick note, I wouldn't say that the shifting is random, rather that it's under Slayer's will. Also note that we now know (or at least it seems) that he has two personalities that are somewhat blended, rather than just the Isam personality, and that the Luc half seems to be just as twisted and evil. 1.4.8: Who killed Adeleas and Ispan? I'd say that Slayer should be added as at least one of the possible killers, although he'd probably have an accomplice. 1.5.1: Is Aram a Darkfriend? We get at least a bit more view of Aram here, and he seems to be devoted to Perrin, Faile, and Rand... and possibly even to Masema in a way, because of Rand. It's seeming less likely that he's a Darkfriend (although still possible), but we're getting some more alternatives as to how he can spell doom for Perrin... such as he could fall in with the Prophet, in order to help Rand, but end up hurting Perrin instead. (In fact, don't the Aes Sedai and others with Perrin see doom in letting Masema live?) >1.6.1: Fain. >Fain and Toram Riatin show up in Far Madding. Fain kills Kisman and is >defeated in a scuffle with Rand. He, of course, escapes. Riatin is >presumably killed by Lan in a fight so easy it didn't even get more >than a sentence in the book. Also Fain now seems to have at least some form of illusion and/or time re-playing power. 2.1.5: Mat's memories Just to point out, Mat is now apparently regaining at least a few of his memories. (He didn't remember Mordeth's disappearance before, apparently, but recalled it when he saw the gholam stretching out to escape.) >2.2.4: Setalle Anan >She can't channel. The adam didn;t work for her in WH. She's also very >hellbent on helping free Aes Sedai from the sul'dam. Sounds like she's >burnt out. Also remember the weird reaction that she got with the a'dam... 2.3.09: Dreamers and Dreamwalking Should Perrin's soul completely leaving his body when he's searching for Faile be added to this section? 2.3.12: The Weirdness in Ebou Dar Maybe this shouldn't be in the same section since it's not the cause, but from what we see of all the damane/sul'dam stationed in Ebou Dar, is the Weirdness completely done with? Was it just temporary? >2.3.13: Cadsuane's Hair Thingy >Her hair thingy is mentioned again in WH (page 631). Elza believes >that Cadsuane must possess an angreal of some kind due to the amount >of power she's channeling (WH 639). This is confirmed on page 642: >"Without the aid of the angreal that looked like a shrike hanging from >her bun, she would not have been able to hold the shield up." Sounds >like that settles it. Not to mention the other ter'angreal we see... the well, the location-detector for channelers. 2.4.10: Tigraine = Shaiel If we *really* needed any more conformation of this, The "Luc" half of Slayer specifically thinks of killing "his nephew" in Ebou Dar, which would have to be Rand. Thus making Tigraine Rand's mother. 2.7.3: How old is everyone? How old is Jain bloody Farstrider, anyhow, if he took part in the Fall of Malkier, and yet is still wandering around, healthy enough to use knives and fight and be so active? 3.10 Greek and Roman Mythology: Someone else has already pointed out the "Sophia/So'fiea" connection. Also a few things to add, perhaps: -Was Mordeth once a Gholam? -What will be odd about Aviendha's children? (Perhaps this could replace/be right after the "Is Aviendha pregnant?" section... - Is Dyelin for or against Elayne? Also, is there a section (I couldn't find one) gathering specific references toward things that we think will happen? Foreshadowings, and such? Like all the comments about Nynaeve trying to Heal someone "three days dead"? (I ask about this one specifically because on page 214 there is yet another reference, when Halwin Norry says about Rand "I myself would not believe him dead unless I sat three days with the corpse.") -- -'-,-'-<<0 Trickster 0>>-'-,-'- lparkinson@mindspring.com http://lparkinson.home.mindspring.com "Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed." -Richard Adams, Watership Down From kor2@midway.uchicago.edu Sun Nov 12 18:45:27 CST 2000 Article: 457243 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!not-for-mail Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: WH: Bad Guy Roundup (SPOILERS) Organization: *sniff* X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: kor2@midway.uchicago.edu (P. Korda) Lines: 257 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 974068442 128.135.12.7 (Sun, 12 Nov 2000 16:34:02 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 16:34:02 CST Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 22:34:02 GMT Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:457243 First in a series of WH commentary. Yeah, I know there is a lost of that already going on, but I'm going to be socially irresponsible and start another thread, in the hope that people will post their ideas in MY threads, so I can find them easily. GENERAL: Well, it seems like a lot of our general assumptions were wrong: 1) It seems like the supposed proscription against killing Rand was either a limited-time thing, or just a general guideline, since during the Forsaken Coffee Hour in WH, they speak openly of killing Rand. 2) The Forsaken know about the resurrections of Aginor, Balthamel, and Ishamael, and know who is who. This, I think, is the end result of a process begun with the creation of the Gars back in LOC, continued with the mindtrapping of Moggy and Cynfear, and the gathering in of Graendal in TPOD. Clearly, the other Forsaken were "gathered in" offscreen. Also clearly, Moridin has known about all of them all along, otherwise, he wouldn't have been able to gather them in. 3) Slayer is, on one hand, exactly what we thought, and on the other, much more complicated and powerful than anybody dreamed of, outside of Loony Theories. (More on Slayer later.) Now, for the individuals: RAHVIN, BEL'AL, ASMODEAN: Still dead. AGINOR/OSAN'GAR: Was, in fact, Dashiva all along. All of things I thought didn't make sense didn't make sense because of a lack of information, not because they were wrong. Dashiva appeared to be trying to kill Rand in TPOD because he WAS trying to kill Rand, and had not been forbidden from doing so. It seemed odd for the Dark Side to be double-teaming Rand with Taimandred and Dashivan'gar, but it seems as if the Dark Side was double-teaming Rand with Demandred (who, after all, might not be Taim) and Dashiva'gar. It was said that if Dashiva was a Forsaken, he was the Limper of the Forsaken (ref. Cook's Black Company books), and sure enough, Aginor/Osan'gar/Dashiva is/was the Limper of the Forsaken. He's managed to get killed TWICE. I wonder if the DO will bother resurrecting him again. I must say that the Dark Side really didn't make use of him very well. He should have been working hard in a monster lab, not wasting time doing a spy job which any halfway competant Darkfriend could have done just as well. BALTHAMEL/ARAN'GAR/HALIMA: As we've known for a while, is Egwene's masseuse. She believes she has Egwene totally under her thumb, but what is she DOING? The headaches obviously have something to do with it, either as a "fake cause" to make Eg dependent on Halima's massages, or as a side effect of whatever bad juju she is working on Egwene. If she's Compelling her or something, it is very subtle. GRAENDAL: Graendal's plan seems to be to avoid making waves, and let the other Forsaken get themselves killed. For somebody as powerful as she supposedly is, she really doesn't do much. Of course, she could be executing some brilliant strategy off-screen, and will end up Nae'blis after all. ISHAMAEL/MORIDIN: I know some people will STILL try to deny that Ishamael is Moridin, but really. Give it up, people. The other Forsaken know he's Ishamael. You should, too. But, what was up with sending all the Chosen to get their asses kicked at Shadar Logoth? Is he still underestimating Rand, at this point in the game? If he'd really wanted Rand's plan stopped, couldn't he have mobilized a bunch of DFs to lend support to the Forsaken, or gotten the DO to let them use the True Power (which would have kept them from becoming targets like they did), or gotten the Forsaken better intelligence (Demandred was surprised to find an Asha'man there), or participated himself? Something is stinky with that scheme. Maybe it was an exercise to demonstrate to the Chosen that _they_ need to take Rand more seriously? LANFEAR/CYNDANE: See what I wrote about Moridin and Ishamael, above? Same here. There is only one psycho ex-girlfriend of LTT who invited Rand to use the mega-sa'angreal with her to challenge the DO and the Creator, who was the strongest known woman channeller, and who spent time in Finnland. Her name was Lanfear. Now it is Cyndane. >From Demandred, we know that Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear was, although she is still stronger than Graenal. (Which is to say, pretty damn strong.) The only way we know of for such a strength decrease to occur is from Stilling followed by improper Healing, a la Siuan and Leane. So, maybe she was stilled by the doorway explosion, and used one of her three wishes to ask for her ability to be restored, without asking to be restored to full power. Maybe the decrease in channelling power is the "price" she paid for her wishes and/or her freedom. An interesting line is: "[Alivia] was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and Eelfinn had held her." So, Lanfear did not die upon falling through the doorway, but was held for some time. This is a definite indication that Moiraine did not die, either. We still have no clue as to how she ended up with a different body. If she died, when did she die? If it was the result of a Finn wish, how did they manage it? MESAANA: aka, Dame Not-Appearing-in-this-Book. Moridin comments that her absence >from the Coffee Hour is "A pity. She should hear what I have to say.... Small, apparently unimportant matters can become very important." As far as I can tell, the only thing Mesaana lost from missing the meeting is getting her butt kicked at Shadar Logoth. MOGHEDIEN: Shows up at the end, stays out of the fight. SAMMEAL: Has returned. IMO, he is the mystery guy who Slayer speaks to in TAR, who sent Slayer to kill Rand and Min in Far Madding. Reasoning: the mystery guy must be a Forsaken, since only they can summon/command Slayer. He is abnormally paranoid about keeping his identity and his actions secret. I can't think of any reason for any or the other Forsaken, male or female, to be so secretive about trying to kill Rand, especially since they all just had a meeting where they talked about killing Rand. Sammy is back, and is hiding out in TAR. Maybe he was the other person (besides Luc and Temaile Kinderode) spying on the Wonder Girls in TAR. SEMIRHAGE: As has been pointed out, Sem has got to be Tuon's scarey retainer, Anath. The description, personality, and situation all match up. Poor, poor Mat. DEMANDRED: Is he or isn't he? Finally, in WH, we get something to contradict the mass of hints that Demandred is Taim. First is the Kisman POV, right before Fain kills him. Kisman thinks about how Taim ordered the attack on the Sun Palace, and then was "as displeased that they had found out as that they had failed." Taim later told him to kill Rand in Far Madding, presumably when it was determined that that was where Rand had gone. Then, later, Demandred repeated the order, and "added that it would be better they died than let themselves be discovered again." This is the same sentiment expressed by Taim. However, the thought continues, saying "[discovered] By anyone, including the M'Hael, as if he did not know of Taim's order." So, if Taim is Dem, why would he give the same order twice, and specifically forbid Kisman from letting Taim know about it? This, I think, is strong evidence against the Taimandred theory, although I suppose it could be argued that Taimandred was trying to cover his tracks, in case Kisman was captured and questioned. The second evidence is from the very end. Demandred is running through the woods near Shadar Logoth, and runs across Flinn's group. He does not recognise Flinn as one of the Asha'man from Rand's personal entourage. One would expect Taim to recognise _those_ AM, although since there are about 500 Asha'man, I wouldn't expect every one of them to be immediately recognisable to the mighty M'Hael. He only catches a glimpse of Flinn, through the trees, before he starts channelling at Dem, so I suppose it is possible that he didn't get a good enough look to place him. OTOH, he got a good enough look at Flinn's companions to note that they were good-looking, so maybe not. Okay, so if Taim is Taim, then where is Demandred? I think he may still be with the Asha'man, and working with Taim. Here's why: 1) The fact that Kisman expects Demandred to know of Taim's order is proof positive that Taim is a Darkfriend, if nothing else. However, Kisman isn't surprised that Moridin, who also gave him orders, apparently didn't know of Taim's or Dem's orders. So, possibly, Kisman expects Demandred to know what Taim is up to, because he knows that Taim and Dem associate with one another. 2) All the oddities that indicate that Taim might be a Forsaken (remarks like "so-called Aiel," his extensive knowledge of channelling and the training of channellers, etc) are still there. If Taim is not Forsaken, then wherefore all these little discrepancies? The easiest answer is that he's been spending a lot of time with a Forsaken, who taught him, and whose attitudes have rubbed off on him. 3) During the Forsaken Coffee Hour, Aran'gar comments that Osan'gar and Demandred were responsible for keeping an eye on Rand. The best place in Rand's vicinity to hide a male channeller is among the Asha'man. 4) Sammael's comment that Demandred always likes to work through proxies. If Dem is working through a proxy in the case of keeping an eye on Rand, I'd say that Taim is the most proxy-looking guy around. 5) Non-recognition of Flinn. If this is evidence that Taim is not Dem, it is also evidence that Dem is not somebody who Rand sees a lot, since Flinn was part of Rand's personal retinue. Since Dem is supposedly in a postion to keep an eye on Rand, he must be associated with one of Rand's important forces, so that is either the Asha'man or the Aiel, and Dem really doesn't seem to be the Aiel type. --- SURVIVAL POTENTIAL: So, who survived that battle at the end? Most of 'em, IMO. I think RJ even tells us so. Dashiva/Osan'gar/Aginor is beyond toast-- he's fine, greasy ash blowing over the forests of northern Andor. Moghedien was watching events from atop a hill, and clearly survived the various battles; she notes the dying-down of the OP battles. The last we see of her is getting blown around by the wind generated by the implosion of the black dome around SL. She _could_ be dead, but without seeing a body, I'll assume she's not. As for the rest, Cadsuane thinks that she "did not like losing two people in return for no more than a few singed Forsaken and one dead renegade." So, none of the defenders reported doing anything worse than "singing" the Forsaken, which leads me to conclude that they all survived. --- That's it for the Forsaken, now for the other baddies: SLAYER: Well, he is much more complex than most of us ever thought. Turns out that he is not Isam in Luc's body, but is really Isam AND Luc. I wonder if Luc was a Darkfriend before Gitara Moroso sent him to the Blight. He also seems to have some special power to enter and leave TAR at will. He's also the culprit in a couple of unsolved murders: the Grey Man in TDR, and the two BA in the dungeon of the Stone in TSR. He is also known to all the Forsaken. Given this history, and his special powers, he is now a non-loony candidate for Asmodean's murder. More likely than either Lanfear or Graendal, IMO. I do NOT think that Slayer killed Ispan and Adeleas, though. There'd be no need for the poison tea. BLACK AJAH: Well, we now know a lot more about BA and Warders. BA _can_ have Warders. Some of those Warders are Darkfriends, and apparently the BA have a variation on the Warder Bond that makes non-Black Warders obedient and easily manipulated. We also have a better idea of who did kill Ispan and Adeleas. From the two BA sections (the bit with Asne, Chesmal, and Temaile, and the bit with Shiane and Marillin Gamelphin), we know that one of the AS with El and Ny is Black Ajah. Occam's Razor tells us that this BA is the killer. (The candidates are Vandene, Merilille, Sareitha, and Careane.) My only doubt comes from the fact that Darkfriend Kin were ruled out too quickly. Elza: one of the pathetic bunch who were brainwashed by Verin and who swore to Rand in TPOD, turns out to be a Darkfriend. That's some good brainwashing on Verin's part! I wonder if Verin knows she's Black. Speaking of Verin, she looked like she was going to poison Cadsuane. It's unclear to me whether she did it or not. I'm guessing not, because Cadsuane is not dead, nor did she writhe on the floor to swear fealty to Rand. But, what is it that changed Verin's mind? If Verin knows about the BA, surely she knows, or has figured out, that the BA can lie. -pam From jsn@concentric.net Sun Nov 12 18:51:02 CST 2000 Article: 457290 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!ts006d48.chi-il.concentric.NET!not-for-mail From: jsn@concentric.net (John S. Novak, III) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: WH: Bad Guy Roundup (SPOILERS) Date: 12 Nov 2000 23:42:38 GMT Organization: Cynics Central Lines: 222 Message-ID: References: Reply-To: jsn@concentric.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ts006d48.chi-il.concentric.net (206.173.186.60) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 974072558 2480844 206.173.186.60 (16 [39511]) X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.3 UNIX) Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:457290 On Sun, 12 Nov 2000 22:34:02 GMT, P. Korda wrote: >First in a series of WH commentary. Yeah, I know there is a lost of >that already going on, but I'm going to be socially irresponsible and >start another thread, in the hope that people will post their ideas in >MY threads, so I can find them easily. Heh. It peeves me that about three seconds after I posted my reviews, I realized that I forgot to include my name in the title of the thread for easy reference. (No, I'm not above starting my own vanity thread, I just forgot. I did it last time, I think.) Spoilers: >GENERAL: >1) It seems like the supposed proscription against killing Rand was either >a limited-time thing, or just a general guideline, since during the >Forsaken Coffee Hour in WH, they speak openly of killing Rand. I think it was a circumstance limited thing, with Ishamael having the authority to change the ircumstances as he sees fit. This meshes with the idea that Ishamael knows more details of the Dark One's intent than anyone else (hence his being Nae'blis) and the idea that the Dark One has varying victory conditions and goals. His highest victory probably includes turning Rand, but failing that, killing him is a lesser victory. >2) The Forsaken know about the resurrections of Aginor, Balthamel, and >Ishamael, and know who is who. This, I think, is the end result of a >process begun with the creation of the Gars back in LOC, continued with >the mindtrapping of Moggy and Cynfear, and the gathering in of Graendal in >TPOD. Clearly, the other Forsaken were "gathered in" offscreen. Also >clearly, Moridin has known about all of them all along, otherwise, he >wouldn't have been able to gather them in. It may also signify a slight change of plan on Jordan's part-- this time, a change toward wrapping things up. Initially, Moghedien seemed to have absolutely no idea who or what Aran'gar was, and that seemed to argue that transmigrated Forsaken were kep secret from the living ones. I was mildly surprised by that turn-around, that now everyone knows who they are and that they're out in the open. So to speeak. >RAHVIN, BEL'AL, ASMODEAN: Still dead. appily so. >AGINOR/OSAN'GAR: >Was, in fact, Dashiva all along. All of things I thought didn't make sense >didn't make sense because of a lack of information, not because they were >wrong. Dashiva appeared to be trying to kill Rand in TPOD because he WAS >trying to kill Rand, and had not been forbidden from doing so. Apparently. This is sort of annoying, as I had read the proscription against killing Rand as having been firm, until Ishamael learned he was trying to cleanse saidin. >It seemed >odd for the Dark Side to be double-teaming Rand with Taimandred and >Dashivan'gar, but it seems as if the Dark Side was double-teaming Rand with >Demandred (who, after all, might not be Taim) and Dashiva'gar. It was said >that if Dashiva was a Forsaken, he was the Limper of the Forsaken (ref. >Cook's Black Company books), and sure enough, Aginor/Osan'gar/Dashiva >is/was the Limper of the Forsaken. ^^^^^^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^^^^^^ Great minds think alike. >He's managed to get killed TWICE. I >wonder if the DO will bother resurrecting him again. Let's hope not. >I must say that the >Dark Side really didn't make use of him very well. He should have been >working hard in a monster lab, not wasting time doing a spy job which any >halfway competant Darkfriend could have done just as well. Perhaps there wasn't enough equipment. >BALTHAMEL/ARAN'GAR/HALIMA: >As we've known for a while, is Egwene's masseuse. She believes she has >Egwene totally under her thumb, but what is she DOING? The headaches >obviously have something to do with it, either as a "fake cause" to make Eg >dependent on Halima's massages, or as a side effect of whatever bad juju >she is working on Egwene. If she's Compelling her or something, it is very >subtle. Other people have pointed to her rapid about-face regarding the Oaths as one indication. I think I am convinced by that-- the Oaths provide excellent camoflage (literally) for the Dark Oaths of the Black Ajah. >GRAENDAL: >Graendal's plan seems to be to avoid making waves, and let the other >Forsaken get themselves killed. For somebody as powerful as she supposedly >is, she really doesn't do much. Of course, she could be executing some >brilliant strategy off-screen, and will end up Nae'blis after all. Well, she seemed to have picked up Jain Charin. And she's one of three Forsaken thus far who haven't been killed or had a near death experience somewhere along the line. She can't be too stupid. >ISHAMAEL/MORIDIN: >But, what was up with sending all the Chosen to get their asses kicked at >Shadar Logoth? Is he still underestimating Rand, at this point in the >game? If he'd really wanted Rand's plan stopped, couldn't he have >mobilized a bunch of DFs to lend support to the Forsaken, or gotten the DO >to let them use the True Power (which would have kept them from becoming >targets like they did), or gotten the Forsaken better intelligence >(Demandred was surprised to find an Asha'man there), or participated >himself? Something is stinky with that scheme. Maybe it was an exercise to >demonstrate to the Chosen that _they_ need to take Rand more seriously? That's an interesting thought. It could be just another chopping away at the chaff. He wasn't sorry to see Aginor go the first time, either. >LANFEAR/CYNDANE: >An interesting line is: "[Alivia] was stronger than Cyndane had been before >the Aelfinn and Eelfinn had held her." More interesting was the disbelief, the thought that that was impossible. >MESAANA: >aka, Dame Not-Appearing-in-this-Book. Moridin comments that her absence >from the Coffee Hour is "A pity. She should hear what I have to say.... >Small, apparently unimportant matters can become very important." As far >as I can tell, the only thing Mesaana lost from missing the meeting >is getting her butt kicked at Shadar Logoth. Well, I think the reason she was missing is because she knws there's both a purge going on, and an army approaching the Tower. Hence, the desire to avoid anything suspicious. But there are exactly three places that are going to _immeiately_ be sent into convulsions over what happened at Shadar Logoth, and two of them concern Mesaana directly. One is the Black Tower. The other two are the White Tower and the Little Tower, both of which she needs to worry about. (Obviously, the damane/suldam communities, the Wise Ones, and the Windfinders will go bonkers, too, but they're less geographically concentrated than the first three.) >MOGHEDIEN: >Shows up at the end, stays out of the fight. And apparently, is no longer afraid. >SAMMEAL: >Has returned. IMO, he is the mystery guy who Slayer speaks to in TAR, who >sent Slayer to kill Rand and Min in Far Madding. I resign myself to looney theory-dom that Isam's boss on that was Taim. >SEMIRHAGE: >As has been pointed out, Sem has got to be Tuon's scarey retainer, Anath. >The description, personality, and situation all match up. Poor, poor Mat. I wonder if she takes his eye out? >DEMANDRED: >Okay, so if Taim is Taim, then where is Demandred? I think he may still be >with the Asha'man, and working with Taim. Here's why: I find it easy to believe he's working with Taim, but not as easy to believe that he's just one of the Asha'man. Are you working up to the idea that Demandred is Mishraile, and that he's giving Taim lessons rather than the other way around? [...] Ah, you're not. Well, put that down as my guess: Not convinced Demandred is posing as an Asha'man, but if he is, it's Mishraile. >SURVIVAL POTENTIAL: >So, who survived that battle at the end? Most of 'em, IMO. I think RJ >even tells us so. I agree. Everyone but the Limper. >That's it for the Forsaken, now for the other baddies: >BLACK AJAH: >Elza: one of the pathetic bunch who were brainwashed by Verin and who >swore to Rand in TPOD, turns out to be a Darkfriend. That's some good >brainwashing on Verin's part! I wonder if Verin knows she's Black. Elza was also worked over by the Aiel. She had two brainwashing teams on her. And I doubt Verin knew she was Black Ajah. -- John S. Novak, III jsn@concentric.net The Humblest Man on the Net From jhamby@cub.kcnet.org Sun Nov 12 18:55:37 CST 2000 Article: 457305 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Message-ID: <3A0F320E.E88D8E85@cub.kcnet.org> Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 19:13:04 -0500 From: John Hamby X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD snapN45b1 (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: WH: Bad Guy Roundup (SPOILERS) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: goliath2 Lines: 494 X-Authenticated-User: jhamby X-Comments: This message was posted through Newsfeeds.com X-Comments2: IMPORTANT: Newsfeeds.com does not condone, nor support, spam or any illegal or copyrighted postings. X-Comments3: IMPORTANT: Under NO circumstances will postings containing illegal or copyrighted material through this service be tolerated!! X-Report: Please report illegal or inappropriate use to You may also use our online abuse reporting from: http://www.newsfeeds.com/abuseform.htm X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers, INCLUDING the body (DO NOT SEND ATTACHMENTS) Organization: Newsfeeds.com http://www.newsfeeds.com 73,000+ UNCENSORED Newsgroups. Path: uchinews!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!netnews.com!local-out.newsfeeds.com!newsfeeds.com!goliath2.newsfeeds.com!newsfeeds.com!g2!anonymous!g2 Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:457305 "P. Korda" wrote: Spoilers protection added for your comfort and enjoyment courtesy of netscape @#*$*#@# news > First in a series of WH commentary. Yeah, I know there is a lost of > that already going on, but I'm going to be socially irresponsible and > start another thread, in the hope that people will post their ideas in > MY threads, so I can find them easily. > > GENERAL: > > Well, it seems like a lot of our general assumptions were wrong: > > 1) It seems like the supposed proscription against killing Rand was either > a limited-time thing, or just a general guideline, since during the > Forsaken Coffee Hour in WH, they speak openly of killing Rand. > 2) The Forsaken know about the resurrections of Aginor, Balthamel, and > Ishamael, and know who is who. This, I think, is the end result of a > process begun with the creation of the Gars back in LOC, continued with > the mindtrapping of Moggy and Cynfear, and the gathering in of Graendal in > TPOD. Clearly, the other Forsaken were "gathered in" offscreen. Also > clearly, Moridin has known about all of them all along, otherwise, he > wouldn't have been able to gather them in. While Moridin seems to have a clear idea as to where the others all are (as seen through his thoughts in TPOD), the ingathering that introduced them all to one another seems to have happened rather quickly. Even though Mesaana is never seen, we know that she has met Cyndane at some point. The question is before Graendal was taken under Moridin's command in TPOD or after? > > > 3) Slayer is, on one hand, exactly what we thought, and on the other, much > more complicated and powerful than anybody dreamed of, outside of Loony > Theories. (More on Slayer later.) > > Now, for the individuals: > > RAHVIN, BEL'AL, ASMODEAN: Still dead. > > AGINOR/OSAN'GAR: > > Was, in fact, Dashiva all along. All of things I thought didn't make sense > didn't make sense because of a lack of information, not because they were > wrong. Dashiva appeared to be trying to kill Rand in TPOD because he WAS > trying to kill Rand, and had not been forbidden from doing so. It seemed > odd for the Dark Side to be double-teaming Rand with Taimandred and > Dashivan'gar, but it seems as if the Dark Side was double-teaming Rand with > Demandred (who, after all, might not be Taim) and Dashiva'gar. It was said > that if Dashiva was a Forsaken, he was the Limper of the Forsaken (ref. > Cook's Black Company books), and sure enough, Aginor/Osan'gar/Dashiva > is/was the Limper of the Forsaken. He's managed to get killed TWICE. I > wonder if the DO will bother resurrecting him again. I must say that the > Dark Side really didn't make use of him very well. He should have been > working hard in a monster lab, not wasting time doing a spy job which any > halfway competant Darkfriend could have done just as well. > > BALTHAMEL/ARAN'GAR/HALIMA: > > As we've known for a while, is Egwene's masseuse. She believes she has > Egwene totally under her thumb, but what is she DOING? The headaches > obviously have something to do with it, either as a "fake cause" to make Eg > dependent on Halima's massages, or as a side effect of whatever bad juju > she is working on Egwene. If she's Compelling her or something, it is very > subtle. The time frame is rather screwy for TPOD and WH. The meeting between the Forsaken is before Egwene takes charge of the Hall with her Law of War, right? So Halima's certainty is possibly Jordan's attempt at once more illustrating how foolishly over confident his characters can be. > > > GRAENDAL: > > Graendal's plan seems to be to avoid making waves, and let the other > Forsaken get themselves killed. For somebody as powerful as she supposedly > is, she really doesn't do much. Of course, she could be executing some > brilliant strategy off-screen, and will end up Nae'blis after all. I wonder how much control Moridin has over the Seanchan. Consider that Semirhage has been with Tuon, leaving Suroth fully in charge and seemingly without direct Forsaken guidance unless from Moridin. The reason I find this interesting is that while there are all kins of 'rumors' out of Arad Doman, there is no press by the Seanchan to take Almoth Plain or Arad Doman. Could this b, in part, due to Graendal's presence there in some way? > > > ISHAMAEL/MORIDIN: > > I know some people will STILL try to deny that Ishamael is Moridin, but > really. Give it up, people. The other Forsaken know he's Ishamael. You > should, too. > > But, what was up with sending all the Chosen to get their asses kicked at > Shadar Logoth? Is he still underestimating Rand, at this point in the > game? If he'd really wanted Rand's plan stopped, couldn't he have > mobilized a bunch of DFs to lend support to the Forsaken, or gotten the DO > to let them use the True Power (which would have kept them from becoming > targets like they did), or gotten the Forsaken better intelligence > (Demandred was surprised to find an Asha'man there), or participated > himself? Something is stinky with that scheme. Maybe it was an exercise to > demonstrate to the Chosen that _they_ need to take Rand more seriously? This seemed very odd as none of the others really seemed to know where and what the others were doing. The largest amount of saidin and saidar to ever be wielded and none of the Forsaken go in linked?!?! If preventing the removal of the taint is paramount and Rand is no longer sacrosanct, then why not gate in every Black sister or Darkfriend Asha'man? Poor planning indeed. > > > LANFEAR/CYNDANE: > > See what I wrote about Moridin and Ishamael, above? Same here. There is > only one psycho ex-girlfriend of LTT who invited Rand to use the > mega-sa'angreal with her to challenge the DO and the Creator, who was the > strongest known woman channeller, and who spent time in Finnland. Her name > was Lanfear. Now it is Cyndane. > > From Demandred, we know that Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear was, although > she is still stronger than Graenal. (Which is to say, pretty damn strong.) > The only way we know of for such a strength decrease to occur is from > Stilling followed by improper Healing, a la Siuan and Leane. So, maybe she > was stilled by the doorway explosion, and used one of her three wishes to > ask for her ability to be restored, without asking to be restored to full > power. Maybe the decrease in channelling power is the "price" she paid > for her wishes and/or her freedom. > > An interesting line is: "[Alivia] was stronger than Cyndane had been before > the Aelfinn and Eelfinn had held her." So, Lanfear did not die upon > falling through the doorway, but was held for some time. This is a definite > indication that Moiraine did not die, either. We still have no clue as to > how she ended up with a different body. If she died, when did she die? If > it was the result of a Finn wish, how did they manage it? Lanfear's return as Cyndane is rather perplexing in the 'how' dept. Did the finn lower her level of strength? Did the DO as punishment? Why is she in a new body if she needed her abilities Healed? Aginor did not seem to be impaired in any way the second time around. > > > MESAANA: > > aka, Dame Not-Appearing-in-this-Book. Moridin comments that her absence > from the Coffee Hour is "A pity. She should hear what I have to say.... > Small, apparently unimportant matters can become very important." As far > as I can tell, the only thing Mesaana lost from missing the meeting > is getting her butt kicked at Shadar Logoth. That and perhaps meeting Halima. Which could be a matter that could become very important if Moridin has a clue as to where Egwene is heading and how. > > > MOGHEDIEN: > > Shows up at the end, stays out of the fight. > > SAMMEAL: > > Has returned. IMO, he is the mystery guy who Slayer speaks to in TAR, who > sent Slayer to kill Rand and Min in Far Madding. Reasoning: the mystery > guy must be a Forsaken, since only they can summon/command Slayer. He is > abnormally paranoid about keeping his identity and his actions secret. > I can't think of any reason for any or the other Forsaken, male or female, > to be so secretive about trying to kill Rand, especially since they all > just had a meeting where they talked about killing Rand. Sammy is back, > and is hiding out in TAR. Maybe he was the other person (besides Luc and > Temaile Kinderode) spying on the Wonder Girls in TAR. I agree that Sammael is the first person. As to the second, I need to re-read to get a feel as to who it might be. > > > SEMIRHAGE: > > As has been pointed out, Sem has got to be Tuon's scarey retainer, Anath. > The description, personality, and situation all match up. Poor, poor Mat. I feel so vindicated as to my prediction that Semirhage is the woman in Egwene's Dream. > > > DEMANDRED: > > Is he or isn't he? Finally, in WH, we get something to contradict the mass > of hints that Demandred is Taim. > > First is the Kisman POV, right before Fain kills him. Kisman thinks about > how Taim ordered the attack on the Sun Palace, and then was "as displeased > that they had found out as that they had failed." Taim later told him to > kill Rand in Far Madding, presumably when it was determined that that > was where Rand had gone. Then, later, Demandred repeated the order, and > "added that it would be better they died than let themselves be discovered > again." This is the same sentiment expressed by Taim. However, the thought > continues, saying "[discovered] By anyone, including the M'Hael, as if he > did not know of Taim's order." > > So, if Taim is Dem, why would he give the same order twice, and > specifically forbid Kisman from letting Taim know about it? This, I think, > is strong evidence against the Taimandred theory, although I suppose it > could be argued that Taimandred was trying to cover his tracks, in case > Kisman was captured and questioned. I don't think this can hold much water for those trying to still prove Taim is Demandred. Why go to the effort of creating confusion to avoid discovery when all you have to do is stick with one known persona and never show the other. Why, if Tam, would Demandred ever reveal himself as Demandred to Kisman? > > > > The second evidence is from the very end. Demandred is running through the > woods near Shadar Logoth, and runs across Flinn's group. He does not > recognise Flinn as one of the Asha'man from Rand's personal entourage. One > would expect Taim to recognise _those_ AM, although since there are about > 500 Asha'man, I wouldn't expect every one of them to be immediately > recognisable to the mighty M'Hael. He only catches a glimpse of Flinn, > through the trees, before he starts channelling at Dem, so I suppose it is > possible that he didn't get a good enough look to place him. OTOH, he got > a good enough look at Flinn's companions to note that they were > good-looking, so maybe not. Also Demandred seems rather shocked not just that he is suddenly facing an Asha'man, but that the _old man_ was an Asha'man. Almost as if he did not realize that such did and could exist. > > > Okay, so if Taim is Taim, then where is Demandred? I think he may still be > with the Asha'man, and working with Taim. Here's why: > > 1) The fact that Kisman expects Demandred to know of Taim's order is proof > positive that Taim is a Darkfriend, if nothing else. However, Kisman isn't > surprised that Moridin, who also gave him orders, apparently didn't know of > Taim's or Dem's orders. So, possibly, Kisman expects Demandred to know what > Taim is up to, because he knows that Taim and Dem associate with one > another. Either that or Kisman knows who Demandred is posing as and therefore expects him to be in the know due to this position. Perhaps as another Asha'man. Problem is that Demandred seems just as surprised that Flinn could be an Asha'man due to his age. That seems to reveal an ignorance of who makes up the ranks of the Black Tower. Just to continue to play devil's advocate:, it could be that Demandred does know that old men can make up the ranks of the Asha'man; he is just surprised that there is one with Rand. This in part may be based on thinking he knows just where all the Asha'man are. But it also means that his knowledge stems >from an association begun _after_ Dumai's Wells and Flinn going off with Rand. > > > 2) All the oddities that indicate that Taim might be a Forsaken (remarks like > "so-called Aiel," his extensive knowledge of channelling and the training > of channellers, etc) are still there. If Taim is not Forsaken, then > wherefore all these little discrepancies? The easiest answer is that he's > been spending a lot of time with a Forsaken, who taught him, and whose > attitudes have rubbed off on him. Slightly loony theory resurrected. I once said that if Taim is not Demandred (this after the release of NS), it may be possible that Taim is the rumored male channeler everyone talks about when Lan enters Canluum. Yes I know that the rumors are probably due to the Black Ajah hunting down the men etc. But Taim would be about fifteen and Ishamael is about to re-enter the picture. Re-entering and discovering that the DR is born again. Makes for an interesting scenario. Ishamidin stops the BA purge and takes Taim under his wing to teach him. Taim could also be Sammael (a bit far fetched but there it is). > > > 3) During the Forsaken Coffee Hour, Aran'gar comments that Osan'gar and > Demandred were responsible for keeping an eye on Rand. The best place in > Rand's vicinity to hide a male channeller is among the Asha'man. > > > 4) Sammael's comment that Demandred always likes to work through proxies. > If Dem is working through a proxy in the case of keeping an eye on Rand, > I'd say that Taim is the most proxy-looking guy around. > > 5) Non-recognition of Flinn. If this is evidence that Taim is not Dem, it > is also evidence that Dem is not somebody who Rand sees a lot, since Flinn > was part of Rand's personal retinue. Since Dem is supposedly in a postion > to keep an eye on Rand, he must be associated with one of Rand's important > forces, so that is either the Asha'man or the Aiel, and Dem really doesn't > seem to be the Aiel type. True he does not. Weiramon might also be a candidate. Weiramon makes many seemingly idiotic suggestions that would only end up in decimating Rand's forces and ruining his plans. A little too stupid is our good friend Weiramon? However Demandred among the Tairens is a little too overkill what with Be'lal there in the beginning. > > > --- > > SURVIVAL POTENTIAL: > > So, who survived that battle at the end? Most of 'em, IMO. I think RJ > even tells us so. Dashiva/Osan'gar/Aginor is beyond toast-- he's fine, > greasy ash blowing over the forests of northern Andor. Moghedien was > watching events from atop a hill, and clearly survived the various > battles; she notes the dying-down of the OP battles. The last we see > of her is getting blown around by the wind generated by the implosion > of the black dome around SL. She _could_ be dead, but without seeing a > body, I'll assume she's not. As for the rest, Cadsuane thinks that she > "did not like losing two people in return for no more than a few > singed Forsaken and one dead renegade." So, none of the defenders > reported doing anything worse than "singing" the Forsaken, which leads > me to conclude that they all survived. > Definitely. The ending was so slightly ambiguous that I certainly don't hope Jordan thinks he has to play 'are they or aren't they' with us another book or so. > > --- > > That's it for the Forsaken, now for the other baddies: > > SLAYER: > > Well, he is much more complex than most of us ever thought. Turns out that > he is not Isam in Luc's body, but is really Isam AND Luc. I wonder if Luc > was a Darkfriend before Gitara Moroso sent him to the Blight. He also > seems to have some special power to enter and leave TAR at will. He's also > the culprit in a couple of unsolved murders: the Grey Man in TDR, and the > two BA in the dungeon of the Stone in TSR. He is also known to all the > Forsaken. Given this history, and his special powers, he is now a > non-loony candidate for Asmodean's murder. More likely than either Lanfear > or Graendal, IMO. If so then Jordan has played fast and loose with us. There is nothing in the first five books or even any of the others until now that make Slayer the obvious candidate, imo. I think Graendal is still the lead contender. As to the symbiosis of Luc and Isam? I am still a bit baffled at what Jordan is going for. He clearly states that one is DEAD. Period. So how Luc shows up in T.A.R. is a bit of a mystery. However, Temaile seems to think that Slayer revealed himself on purpose. Is he going to show up as Luc in the waking world in Caemlyn to get closer to Elayne somehow? The long lost Luc Mantear could be a strong political presence in light of the situation Elayne faces. So maybe Isam only took on Luc's features for some purpose and not because he actually exists as such. A re-read is definitely necessary. > > > I do NOT think that Slayer killed Ispan and Adeleas, though. There'd be no > need for the poison tea. > > BLACK AJAH: > > Well, we now know a lot more about BA and Warders. BA _can_ have Warders. > Some of those Warders are Darkfriends, and apparently the BA have a > variation on the Warder Bond that makes non-Black Warders obedient and > easily manipulated. > > We also have a better idea of who did kill Ispan and Adeleas. From the two > BA sections (the bit with Asne, Chesmal, and Temaile, and the bit with > Shiane and Marillin Gamelphin), we know that one of the AS with El and Ny > is Black Ajah. Occam's Razor tells us that this BA is the killer. (The > candidates are Vandene, Merilille, Sareitha, and Careane.) My only doubt > comes from the fact that Darkfriend Kin were ruled out too quickly. However the ignorance to the location of the Kin's cache in the Rahad seems to support the idea that no DF were among the Kin prior to the trip to the farm. Whether one was picked up there is possible. However none of the Kin that were picked up from the farm in the flight to Andor could be the murderer imo. > > > Elza: one of the pathetic bunch who were brainwashed by Verin and who > swore to Rand in TPOD, turns out to be a Darkfriend. That's some good > brainwashing on Verin's part! I wonder if Verin knows she's Black. > > Speaking of Verin, she looked like she was going to poison Cadsuane. It's > unclear to me whether she did it or not. I'm guessing not, because > Cadsuane is not dead, nor did she writhe on the floor to swear fealty to > Rand. But, what is it that changed Verin's mind? If Verin knows about the > BA, surely she knows, or has figured out, that the BA can lie. I doubt that Verin has a clue as to Elza's affiliation or otherwise she might have eliminated her. Verin's thoughts in TPOD, seem to point to her knowing Katerine was and regretting not killing her. I doubt she would let Elza live were she to suspect. --- JSH -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- From Ozzyptitsarack@worldnet.att.net Sun Nov 12 19:12:54 CST 2000 Article: 456634 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmasters2!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail From: "Oleg Ozerov" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: WH: Not very obvious conclusions (Spoilers, long) Lines: 132 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 18:05:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.75.67.134 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 973965909 12.75.67.134 (Sat, 11 Nov 2000 18:05:09 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 18:05:09 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:456634 Some Spoiler Space Some More That's it. I don't want to post my thoughts on all the things from the book, as others have already plentifully accomplished that, but to comment on more subtle points. Surely, someone else will/has come up with this, too. I just want to put my thoughts in a more organized manner. *The Cleansing aka The Penultimate Battle. I loved this chapter and it was good to see good guys working together. However. The bad guys made me laugh. The association I had with the whole "attack" is a bunch of people with sticks and shovels are trying to storm a hill well defended by modern infantry with automatic firearms. How many good guys were there? Three or four circles plus Cadsuane, Callandor, two angreal and some battle-useful ter'angreal. People in the circles were, if not F-strength, but still quite strong. The F. all acted individually and without any kind of plan other than "I'll come as close as I can and strike at Rand". Ri-di-cu-lous. Moghedien was the smartest of them. I don't buy this whole affair. My (and not only) hunch is that Moridin sent them there to try to die. Moreover, since Moridin is Nae'blis and could likely either equip them with a mindtrap or just kill them, I would guess that this was not a DO's idea. Another interesting thing is the Graendal's comment on that upon Cleansing the saidin using Forsaken will fal under the GL's suspicion. They did take that very seriously. This offers another explanatioin for the last chapter. Moridin and/or GL wanted to test the loyalty of the saidin-users (Would they want saidin Cleansed more than they would want to obey GL's orders?). Note the absence of Mesaana and Semirhage at the meeting, whatever the reasons. The female access key broken! I don't recall there being another one. How are they gonna use Choedan Kal in the Last Battle? It seems like Elayne will have some crafting to do. *The a'dam and Setalle Anan. I think I've figured it out. Joline's warders tensed as soon as the a'dam was on her, but that's understandable. a'dam is not a thing Aes Sedai would be happy about on her neck. However, Joline did not start agonizing *until she and Setalle mad a couple of steps*. If you recall the Siuan/Leane and Moghedien a'dam experiment, I think that Moghedien did not move, therefore nothing happened. I posit that a stilled woman wearing an a'dam is the same as the a'dam hanging on the wall. The leashed one cannot move in such a a circumstance without beginning to wreathe in pain. *Slayer stuff. Whoever ordered Slayer made a gateway in T'A'R to leave. Why? We haven't seen anybody use a gateway to move around T'A'R. Could this be an indication of the user's ignorance or of that he made a gateway to the waking world to a different place? Also, notably, the guy disguised himself similarly to what Asmo did in Kadere's dreams, iirc. Another obsevation is that apparently Far Madding's guardian doesn't guard against T'A'R reflection (the disguised guy made a gateway). Could it be able to detect channelling in T'A'R?? Can you arrive into Far Madding's reflection in T'A'R, and somehow step out into the waking world from there? Could Slayer have murdered Adeleas and Ispan? Perhaps in a way to cast suspicion within the group of AS with Egwene. *Far Madding itself. Slightly unclear _when_ the guardian was made. Probably in the Breaking, though. Now we have four distinguished characters from FM: Raolin, Yurian, Cadsuane and Verin. Significance? Verin thinks that some order against her still stands. Sort of implies that she did something in FM under the name of Verin Mathwin fairly recently. If Verin were really old, wouldn't Cadsuane know of that? Surely she would take notice of a sister from her hometown. I say that Verin is substantially younger than Cadsuane. *Atha'an Miere. Who's the Mistress of the ships now? *On Semirhage is Anoth theory. I support it, but with caution. The arguments for it are the same or weaker than those in favor of Taimandred and look what happened to that. *Verin's compulsion It has obviously worked wonders on Elza. Probably on others as well. Did Verin know that Elza was Black? Are we to think on whether all those compelled by Verin were Black as well? *Sharina Moloy Nothing to say except that I am glad that I had picked up on this. *Aes Sedai Alright. Egwene's plan for AS/Kin integration is interesting but, I think, doomed. Consider this. An Aes Sedai retires and becomes an Oath-free Kinswoman. She keeps living on for a long time still. Presumably not while doing embroidery. And then, a couple of hudred years later she is still supposed to submit herself to some girl Amyrlin? It seems to me that this way the Kin will overtake the Tower eventually and become the grey cardinal. ...If the Tower hangs on for that long as a place of authority. Look at what's going on. The Wise ones harry Aes Sedai. The Atha'an Miere harry Aes Sedai. And not only Windfinders. The Kin begin to do the same. If Egwene doesn't do something fast, Aes Sedai will be the lowest status chanelling group in a matter of months, and it may be too late. O. From slonimsky4938@home.com Sun Nov 12 21:25:33 CST 2000 Article: 455526 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news2.rdc1.on.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A0A596D.D347ED80@home.com> From: Joseph Slonimsky X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Questions and Topics index for WH (Spoilers) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 51 Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 08:01:40 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.156.106.169 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news2.rdc1.on.home.com 973756900 24.156.106.169 (Thu, 09 Nov 2000 00:01:40 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 00:01:40 PST Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:455526 1. Who were the three people spying on Elayne/Egwene in Tel'aran'rhiod? (Isam/Luc, One of Moggies black Ajah, and someone else?) 2. Who is the third person LTT speaks off? (or the person that Rand sees during the power aquisition syndrome) 3. Who did Cyndane kill when she had to travel to Shadar Logoth? (it was someone important, and 'to the south') 4. What is the connection between Verins mistake 70 years ago and the arrest warrant for her in Far Madding? What did she do? 5. Who were the man and woman Isam killed? Who was he trying to kill? (Nyneave and Lan?) and which of the chosen was commanding him? 6. Why did Isam ride out of Emonds field in the real world instead of tel'aran'rhiod in book 4? Has he gained the ability to step from TAR to the real world recently? 7. What do the colors in the Ta'verens heads when they think about each other mean? 8. Why does Egwene have such a radical change of heart about the Oath Rod? Is it becuase of what Siuan said or could this be Halimas influence? (re: her fear of seanchan) 9. How do we account for Lanfears drop in Power as Cyndane, and yet her being stronger than Greandal still? 10. What prophecy did the Damane give Tuon? Why did she smile at the end when Mat said he'd take her along? 11. How was Fain able to create an illusion? Is it True power, one power or Aridhol/Mordeth power? If it's the last, what implication does it have for the balance of power theme (saidar/saidin/true power/mordeth power??) esp considering how Rand cleaned the source. 12. How did Fain know about Taim, and his ordering of the Asha'man in order to create the illusion in the first place? 13. How will Rand be different when he wakes up? Will LTT be gone? will Rand be sane? 14. How will Alivia help Rand to die? (could this have something to do with faking his death?) Possible Changes to previously held ideas: 1. The sense of foreboding about Aram that Egwene feels may not be becuase he is a darkfriend, but becuase he seems to be worshipping Masema.. 2. Now that Perrins group is chasing the Aiel, Berelains man in white may turn out to be a Gai'shain instead of a whitecloak. What the Hells: 1. First Nyneave finds out how to heal severing, and now Flinn independantly manages to as well? How stupid were they in the AoL??? 2. WHY THE F*CK did moridin spend all that time and effort making sure Rand lived (In ACOS and POD) only to attempt to kill him now?? 3. What the hell is up with Taim, Demandred and the DF Asha'man? Whats their relationship to each other? -Krax Joseph Slonimsky From argonomic@earthlink.net Sun Nov 12 21:25:40 CST 2000 Article: 455549 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail From: "Avatar" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan References: <3A0A596D.D347ED80@home.com> Subject: Re: Questions and Topics index for WH (Spoilers) Lines: 127 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 09:23:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.178.117.153 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 973761825 63.178.117.153 (Thu, 09 Nov 2000 01:23:45 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 01:23:45 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:455549 Joseph Slonimsky wrote in message news:3A0A596D.D347ED80@home.com... > 1. Who were the three people spying on Elayne/Egwene in Tel'aran'rhiod? > (Isam/Luc, One of Moggies black Ajah, and someone else?) There are so many possibles, but I'd be quicker to guess somebody who doesn't know TAR very well, like Rand, rather than somebody who does, like Moggy (ie they shouldn't have made any noise to pick up on). > 2. Who is the third person LTT speaks off? (or the person that Rand sees > during the power aquisition syndrome) Either Rand, LTT, and a previous Dragon. Rand/LTT, Mat, and Perrin or Rand, LTT, and the person they'll be when they merge! > 5. Who were the man and woman Isam killed? Who was he trying to kill? > (Nyneave and Lan?) and which of the chosen was commanding him? Well he says his nephew, which I took for Rand. Lan wouldn't be his nephew. He'd be his cousin (on his other side, heh). > 6. Why did Isam ride out of Emonds field in the real world instead of > tel'aran'rhiod in book 4? Has he gained the ability to step from TAR to > the real world recently? I suppose if he just disappeared into thin air, it would have made things even more obvious that there was something up with him. > 7. What do the colors in the Ta'verens heads when they think about each > other mean? That the end is on the horizon! The best guess I've seen so far, given that Rand almost sees Mat once, is that they'll get a bit of a warder bond to each other. Hey at least its got to make this whole kidnapping thing a bit more difficult. I wonder what would have transpired had the Far Maddens not let Rand out. > 8. Why does Egwene have such a radical change of heart about the Oath > Rod? Is it becuase of what Siuan said or could this be Halimas > influence? (re: her fear of seanchan) Its because she's growing up, and she's starting to see the effects that people having a certain level of implicit trust has. Siuan started her down that track. I wonder if being oath bound means you age faster, or if it just means you die prematurely? The way Siuan dropped in age, I have a tendency to think it doesn't really age you faster, or if it does, it does it at a curve, rather than linear rate. > 9. How do we account for Lanfears drop in Power as Cyndane, and yet her > being stronger than Greandal still? Either the Finns did something to her (which she implies), or they burned her out before killing her, and a black sister from Salidar healed her as best she could. I thought the fact that only men can heal women completely and vice versa to be very interesting, it was neat to see that popular theory turn out true. At the time it just seemed like so much plot contrivance, but I guess its not so terrible after all. > 11. How was Fain able to create an illusion? Is it True power, one power > or Aridhol/Mordeth power? If it's the last, what implication does it > have for the balance of power theme (saidar/saidin/true power/mordeth > power??) esp considering how Rand cleaned the source. I found that part odd, but it ties in with the other oddness Fain seems to have about him. Fain seems to have gotten even odder, for that matter. When he was Mordeth he pulled some neat tricks, maybe they're starting to come back to him. I really wish we knew what happened when he tried to escape. > 12. How did Fain know about Taim, and his ordering of the Asha'man in > order to create the illusion in the first place? Fain was nearby and either overheard or oversaw it before he killed them. Somehow he (assuming it was him), brought that moment back into existence. > 13. How will Rand be different when he wakes up? Will LTT be gone? will > Rand be sane? Probably neither. Maybe he wont be so sick all the time. Maybe not. I have a feeling the Mordeth Evil will turn out to be a bigger deal, given the way Aginor saw it as an ancient enemy way back in TEotW, and now its played a big part with Fain, Rand's wound, and the taint. > What the Hells: > 1. First Nyneave finds out how to heal severing, and now Flinn > independantly manages to as well? How stupid were they in the AoL??? I thought about this the moment after I read it. It's likely another point about being limited by your beliefs (in the one power, amongst other things of course). At some point they decided in the AoL that desevering was just not possible. Then they stopped trying. Nynaeve didn't accept that, and maybe Flinn > 2. WHY THE F*CK did moridin spend all that time and effort making sure > Rand lived (In ACOS and POD) only to attempt to kill him now?? Madder than a wet.. Really though, it may be that he's reaching that TDR level of "ok now he's getting too strong to handle" feeling about him again. Of course, this time his all out attack doesn't involve him personally. Maybe since he "plays both sides of the board", he had a feeling about what the result would be anyway. Remember, Moridin/Ishy believes quite firmly in the pattern, and philosophy. I don't think he believes Rand will die just yet, regardless of what orders he gives. > 3. What the hell is up with Taim, Demandred and the DF Asha'man? Whats > their relationship to each other? Well Taim may be dark, but its quite possible he's not. There's still the question of his getting free in the first place, amongst other things. Up until now, going dark meant staying sane and alive. Demandred seems to be harvesting Asha'man for the dark either way, since they took his orders as well as Taim's. I wonder how that recruiting will go now. Sure the occasional dark friend that gets scooped up will still add fodder to the dread lord ranks, but they just lost one of their biggest bargaining chips. From mhackell@princeton.edu Sun Nov 12 22:06:59 CST 2000 Article: 456610 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!cnn.Princeton.EDU!not-for-mail From: Matthew Hackell Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: SPOILERS: Finding the Forsaken (was: WH mini-review and questions) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 11:35:06 -0500 Organization: Princeton University Lines: 86 Message-ID: References: <8uf585$pdn$1@news3.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: mhackell.student.princeton.edu X-Trace: cnn.Princeton.EDU 973960566 28199 140.180.145.102 (11 Nov 2000 16:36:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@cnn.Princeton.EDU NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Nov 2000 16:36:06 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.30 Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:456610 >From the book of Jordan Weber-Flink: Spoiler Space > Who are each of the Forsaken masquerading as? I know, I know, I'm lazy. I > got most of it, I just need some conformation. Aginor: Dies, resurrected as Osan'gar, dies again. Currently: Dead Will he be resurrected again? It's not ruled out by his manner of death, but how likely is the DO to give him a THIRD chance? Balthamel: Dies, resurrected as Aran'gar, poses as Halima Currently: Has Egwee under her thumb Be'lal: Dead, balefire Rahvin: Dead, balefire Asmodean: Dead, not coming back We'll deal with who killed him later (Slayer?) Lanfear: Cyndane We don't know if she died, however. She was held by the Aelfinn and Eelfinn, and now she has less strength in the power. So perhaps she was stilled and healed by a woman? Why? If she didn't die, where did the new body come from? Semirhage: Posing as Anath, Tuon's Soe'feia. Tuon is her "willful charge", but has now escaped Mesaana: In the WT. No new clues Graendal: Arad Doman, no change in status. Is her ring an angreal? Moghedien: Bound in a cour'souvra Ishamael: Dead, resurrected as Moridin. There's no question about this. Has scorned OP for TP, and only he can use it. IS Nae'blis. IS insane. Sammael: Probably not dead. Either he or Moridin meets with Luc. Demandred: NOT Taim. Responsible (with Osan'gar/Dashiva) for watching Rand. So here I draw a blank. -- Matt Winner of the Rose Bruford Medal for Effort From macdonalddj@home.com Sun Nov 12 22:07:28 CST 2000 Article: 456941 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!enews.sgi.com!newsfeeder.randori.com!news.randori.com!not-for-mail From: Duncan J Macdonald Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: SPOILERS: Finding the Forsaken (was: WH mini-review and questions) Message-ID: References: <8uf585$pdn$1@news3.bu.edu> Lines: 46 Organization: Randori News Inc. -- http://www.randori.com -- Fast! Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 23:09:29 -0500 Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:456941 Matthew Hackell said > From the book of Jordan Weber-Flink: > > Spoiler Space > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moghedien: > Bound in a cour'souvra Don't forget "Last seen playing the part of a giant pinball, bouncing through the forest, on her way to the last known location of Shadar Logoth (plus/minus about two miles). Current Status: Injured, possibly dying/dead. Candidate for reincarnation?" Duncan -- Duncan J Macdonald -- macdonald.duncan@hq.navy.mil "Just because you're not paranoid, doesn't mean that they're not out to get you." From jhamby@cub.kcnet.org Sun Nov 12 22:46:36 CST 2000 Article: 457305 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Message-ID: <3A0F320E.E88D8E85@cub.kcnet.org> Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 19:13:04 -0500 From: John Hamby X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD snapN45b1 (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: WH: Bad Guy Roundup (SPOILERS) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: goliath2 Lines: 494 X-Authenticated-User: jhamby X-Comments: This message was posted through Newsfeeds.com X-Comments2: IMPORTANT: Newsfeeds.com does not condone, nor support, spam or any illegal or copyrighted postings. X-Comments3: IMPORTANT: Under NO circumstances will postings containing illegal or copyrighted material through this service be tolerated!! X-Report: Please report illegal or inappropriate use to You may also use our online abuse reporting from: http://www.newsfeeds.com/abuseform.htm X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers, INCLUDING the body (DO NOT SEND ATTACHMENTS) Organization: Newsfeeds.com http://www.newsfeeds.com 73,000+ UNCENSORED Newsgroups. Path: uchinews!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!netnews.com!local-out.newsfeeds.com!newsfeeds.com!goliath2.newsfeeds.com!newsfeeds.com!g2!anonymous!g2 Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:457305 "P. Korda" wrote: Spoilers protection added for your comfort and enjoyment courtesy of netscape @#*$*#@# news > First in a series of WH commentary. Yeah, I know there is a lost of > that already going on, but I'm going to be socially irresponsible and > start another thread, in the hope that people will post their ideas in > MY threads, so I can find them easily. > > GENERAL: > > Well, it seems like a lot of our general assumptions were wrong: > > 1) It seems like the supposed proscription against killing Rand was either > a limited-time thing, or just a general guideline, since during the > Forsaken Coffee Hour in WH, they speak openly of killing Rand. > 2) The Forsaken know about the resurrections of Aginor, Balthamel, and > Ishamael, and know who is who. This, I think, is the end result of a > process begun with the creation of the Gars back in LOC, continued with > the mindtrapping of Moggy and Cynfear, and the gathering in of Graendal in > TPOD. Clearly, the other Forsaken were "gathered in" offscreen. Also > clearly, Moridin has known about all of them all along, otherwise, he > wouldn't have been able to gather them in. While Moridin seems to have a clear idea as to where the others all are (as seen through his thoughts in TPOD), the ingathering that introduced them all to one another seems to have happened rather quickly. Even though Mesaana is never seen, we know that she has met Cyndane at some point. The question is before Graendal was taken under Moridin's command in TPOD or after? > > > 3) Slayer is, on one hand, exactly what we thought, and on the other, much > more complicated and powerful than anybody dreamed of, outside of Loony > Theories. (More on Slayer later.) > > Now, for the individuals: > > RAHVIN, BEL'AL, ASMODEAN: Still dead. > > AGINOR/OSAN'GAR: > > Was, in fact, Dashiva all along. All of things I thought didn't make sense > didn't make sense because of a lack of information, not because they were > wrong. Dashiva appeared to be trying to kill Rand in TPOD because he WAS > trying to kill Rand, and had not been forbidden from doing so. It seemed > odd for the Dark Side to be double-teaming Rand with Taimandred and > Dashivan'gar, but it seems as if the Dark Side was double-teaming Rand with > Demandred (who, after all, might not be Taim) and Dashiva'gar. It was said > that if Dashiva was a Forsaken, he was the Limper of the Forsaken (ref. > Cook's Black Company books), and sure enough, Aginor/Osan'gar/Dashiva > is/was the Limper of the Forsaken. He's managed to get killed TWICE. I > wonder if the DO will bother resurrecting him again. I must say that the > Dark Side really didn't make use of him very well. He should have been > working hard in a monster lab, not wasting time doing a spy job which any > halfway competant Darkfriend could have done just as well. > > BALTHAMEL/ARAN'GAR/HALIMA: > > As we've known for a while, is Egwene's masseuse. She believes she has > Egwene totally under her thumb, but what is she DOING? The headaches > obviously have something to do with it, either as a "fake cause" to make Eg > dependent on Halima's massages, or as a side effect of whatever bad juju > she is working on Egwene. If she's Compelling her or something, it is very > subtle. The time frame is rather screwy for TPOD and WH. The meeting between the Forsaken is before Egwene takes charge of the Hall with her Law of War, right? So Halima's certainty is possibly Jordan's attempt at once more illustrating how foolishly over confident his characters can be. > > > GRAENDAL: > > Graendal's plan seems to be to avoid making waves, and let the other > Forsaken get themselves killed. For somebody as powerful as she supposedly > is, she really doesn't do much. Of course, she could be executing some > brilliant strategy off-screen, and will end up Nae'blis after all. I wonder how much control Moridin has over the Seanchan. Consider that Semirhage has been with Tuon, leaving Suroth fully in charge and seemingly without direct Forsaken guidance unless from Moridin. The reason I find this interesting is that while there are all kins of 'rumors' out of Arad Doman, there is no press by the Seanchan to take Almoth Plain or Arad Doman. Could this b, in part, due to Graendal's presence there in some way? > > > ISHAMAEL/MORIDIN: > > I know some people will STILL try to deny that Ishamael is Moridin, but > really. Give it up, people. The other Forsaken know he's Ishamael. You > should, too. > > But, what was up with sending all the Chosen to get their asses kicked at > Shadar Logoth? Is he still underestimating Rand, at this point in the > game? If he'd really wanted Rand's plan stopped, couldn't he have > mobilized a bunch of DFs to lend support to the Forsaken, or gotten the DO > to let them use the True Power (which would have kept them from becoming > targets like they did), or gotten the Forsaken better intelligence > (Demandred was surprised to find an Asha'man there), or participated > himself? Something is stinky with that scheme. Maybe it was an exercise to > demonstrate to the Chosen that _they_ need to take Rand more seriously? This seemed very odd as none of the others really seemed to know where and what the others were doing. The largest amount of saidin and saidar to ever be wielded and none of the Forsaken go in linked?!?! If preventing the removal of the taint is paramount and Rand is no longer sacrosanct, then why not gate in every Black sister or Darkfriend Asha'man? Poor planning indeed. > > > LANFEAR/CYNDANE: > > See what I wrote about Moridin and Ishamael, above? Same here. There is > only one psycho ex-girlfriend of LTT who invited Rand to use the > mega-sa'angreal with her to challenge the DO and the Creator, who was the > strongest known woman channeller, and who spent time in Finnland. Her name > was Lanfear. Now it is Cyndane. > > From Demandred, we know that Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear was, although > she is still stronger than Graenal. (Which is to say, pretty damn strong.) > The only way we know of for such a strength decrease to occur is from > Stilling followed by improper Healing, a la Siuan and Leane. So, maybe she > was stilled by the doorway explosion, and used one of her three wishes to > ask for her ability to be restored, without asking to be restored to full > power. Maybe the decrease in channelling power is the "price" she paid > for her wishes and/or her freedom. > > An interesting line is: "[Alivia] was stronger than Cyndane had been before > the Aelfinn and Eelfinn had held her." So, Lanfear did not die upon > falling through the doorway, but was held for some time. This is a definite > indication that Moiraine did not die, either. We still have no clue as to > how she ended up with a different body. If she died, when did she die? If > it was the result of a Finn wish, how did they manage it? Lanfear's return as Cyndane is rather perplexing in the 'how' dept. Did the finn lower her level of strength? Did the DO as punishment? Why is she in a new body if she needed her abilities Healed? Aginor did not seem to be impaired in any way the second time around. > > > MESAANA: > > aka, Dame Not-Appearing-in-this-Book. Moridin comments that her absence > from the Coffee Hour is "A pity. She should hear what I have to say.... > Small, apparently unimportant matters can become very important." As far > as I can tell, the only thing Mesaana lost from missing the meeting > is getting her butt kicked at Shadar Logoth. That and perhaps meeting Halima. Which could be a matter that could become very important if Moridin has a clue as to where Egwene is heading and how. > > > MOGHEDIEN: > > Shows up at the end, stays out of the fight. > > SAMMEAL: > > Has returned. IMO, he is the mystery guy who Slayer speaks to in TAR, who > sent Slayer to kill Rand and Min in Far Madding. Reasoning: the mystery > guy must be a Forsaken, since only they can summon/command Slayer. He is > abnormally paranoid about keeping his identity and his actions secret. > I can't think of any reason for any or the other Forsaken, male or female, > to be so secretive about trying to kill Rand, especially since they all > just had a meeting where they talked about killing Rand. Sammy is back, > and is hiding out in TAR. Maybe he was the other person (besides Luc and > Temaile Kinderode) spying on the Wonder Girls in TAR. I agree that Sammael is the first person. As to the second, I need to re-read to get a feel as to who it might be. > > > SEMIRHAGE: > > As has been pointed out, Sem has got to be Tuon's scarey retainer, Anath. > The description, personality, and situation all match up. Poor, poor Mat. I feel so vindicated as to my prediction that Semirhage is the woman in Egwene's Dream. > > > DEMANDRED: > > Is he or isn't he? Finally, in WH, we get something to contradict the mass > of hints that Demandred is Taim. > > First is the Kisman POV, right before Fain kills him. Kisman thinks about > how Taim ordered the attack on the Sun Palace, and then was "as displeased > that they had found out as that they had failed." Taim later told him to > kill Rand in Far Madding, presumably when it was determined that that > was where Rand had gone. Then, later, Demandred repeated the order, and > "added that it would be better they died than let themselves be discovered > again." This is the same sentiment expressed by Taim. However, the thought > continues, saying "[discovered] By anyone, including the M'Hael, as if he > did not know of Taim's order." > > So, if Taim is Dem, why would he give the same order twice, and > specifically forbid Kisman from letting Taim know about it? This, I think, > is strong evidence against the Taimandred theory, although I suppose it > could be argued that Taimandred was trying to cover his tracks, in case > Kisman was captured and questioned. I don't think this can hold much water for those trying to still prove Taim is Demandred. Why go to the effort of creating confusion to avoid discovery when all you have to do is stick with one known persona and never show the other. Why, if Tam, would Demandred ever reveal himself as Demandred to Kisman? > > > > The second evidence is from the very end. Demandred is running through the > woods near Shadar Logoth, and runs across Flinn's group. He does not > recognise Flinn as one of the Asha'man from Rand's personal entourage. One > would expect Taim to recognise _those_ AM, although since there are about > 500 Asha'man, I wouldn't expect every one of them to be immediately > recognisable to the mighty M'Hael. He only catches a glimpse of Flinn, > through the trees, before he starts channelling at Dem, so I suppose it is > possible that he didn't get a good enough look to place him. OTOH, he got > a good enough look at Flinn's companions to note that they were > good-looking, so maybe not. Also Demandred seems rather shocked not just that he is suddenly facing an Asha'man, but that the _old man_ was an Asha'man. Almost as if he did not realize that such did and could exist. > > > Okay, so if Taim is Taim, then where is Demandred? I think he may still be > with the Asha'man, and working with Taim. Here's why: > > 1) The fact that Kisman expects Demandred to know of Taim's order is proof > positive that Taim is a Darkfriend, if nothing else. However, Kisman isn't > surprised that Moridin, who also gave him orders, apparently didn't know of > Taim's or Dem's orders. So, possibly, Kisman expects Demandred to know what > Taim is up to, because he knows that Taim and Dem associate with one > another. Either that or Kisman knows who Demandred is posing as and therefore expects him to be in the know due to this position. Perhaps as another Asha'man. Problem is that Demandred seems just as surprised that Flinn could be an Asha'man due to his age. That seems to reveal an ignorance of who makes up the ranks of the Black Tower. Just to continue to play devil's advocate:, it could be that Demandred does know that old men can make up the ranks of the Asha'man; he is just surprised that there is one with Rand. This in part may be based on thinking he knows just where all the Asha'man are. But it also means that his knowledge stems >from an association begun _after_ Dumai's Wells and Flinn going off with Rand. > > > 2) All the oddities that indicate that Taim might be a Forsaken (remarks like > "so-called Aiel," his extensive knowledge of channelling and the training > of channellers, etc) are still there. If Taim is not Forsaken, then > wherefore all these little discrepancies? The easiest answer is that he's > been spending a lot of time with a Forsaken, who taught him, and whose > attitudes have rubbed off on him. Slightly loony theory resurrected. I once said that if Taim is not Demandred (this after the release of NS), it may be possible that Taim is the rumored male channeler everyone talks about when Lan enters Canluum. Yes I know that the rumors are probably due to the Black Ajah hunting down the men etc. But Taim would be about fifteen and Ishamael is about to re-enter the picture. Re-entering and discovering that the DR is born again. Makes for an interesting scenario. Ishamidin stops the BA purge and takes Taim under his wing to teach him. Taim could also be Sammael (a bit far fetched but there it is). > > > 3) During the Forsaken Coffee Hour, Aran'gar comments that Osan'gar and > Demandred were responsible for keeping an eye on Rand. The best place in > Rand's vicinity to hide a male channeller is among the Asha'man. > > > 4) Sammael's comment that Demandred always likes to work through proxies. > If Dem is working through a proxy in the case of keeping an eye on Rand, > I'd say that Taim is the most proxy-looking guy around. > > 5) Non-recognition of Flinn. If this is evidence that Taim is not Dem, it > is also evidence that Dem is not somebody who Rand sees a lot, since Flinn > was part of Rand's personal retinue. Since Dem is supposedly in a postion > to keep an eye on Rand, he must be associated with one of Rand's important > forces, so that is either the Asha'man or the Aiel, and Dem really doesn't > seem to be the Aiel type. True he does not. Weiramon might also be a candidate. Weiramon makes many seemingly idiotic suggestions that would only end up in decimating Rand's forces and ruining his plans. A little too stupid is our good friend Weiramon? However Demandred among the Tairens is a little too overkill what with Be'lal there in the beginning. > > > --- > > SURVIVAL POTENTIAL: > > So, who survived that battle at the end? Most of 'em, IMO. I think RJ > even tells us so. Dashiva/Osan'gar/Aginor is beyond toast-- he's fine, > greasy ash blowing over the forests of northern Andor. Moghedien was > watching events from atop a hill, and clearly survived the various > battles; she notes the dying-down of the OP battles. The last we see > of her is getting blown around by the wind generated by the implosion > of the black dome around SL. She _could_ be dead, but without seeing a > body, I'll assume she's not. As for the rest, Cadsuane thinks that she > "did not like losing two people in return for no more than a few > singed Forsaken and one dead renegade." So, none of the defenders > reported doing anything worse than "singing" the Forsaken, which leads > me to conclude that they all survived. > Definitely. The ending was so slightly ambiguous that I certainly don't hope Jordan thinks he has to play 'are they or aren't they' with us another book or so. > > --- > > That's it for the Forsaken, now for the other baddies: > > SLAYER: > > Well, he is much more complex than most of us ever thought. Turns out that > he is not Isam in Luc's body, but is really Isam AND Luc. I wonder if Luc > was a Darkfriend before Gitara Moroso sent him to the Blight. He also > seems to have some special power to enter and leave TAR at will. He's also > the culprit in a couple of unsolved murders: the Grey Man in TDR, and the > two BA in the dungeon of the Stone in TSR. He is also known to all the > Forsaken. Given this history, and his special powers, he is now a > non-loony candidate for Asmodean's murder. More likely than either Lanfear > or Graendal, IMO. If so then Jordan has played fast and loose with us. There is nothing in the first five books or even any of the others until now that make Slayer the obvious candidate, imo. I think Graendal is still the lead contender. As to the symbiosis of Luc and Isam? I am still a bit baffled at what Jordan is going for. He clearly states that one is DEAD. Period. So how Luc shows up in T.A.R. is a bit of a mystery. However, Temaile seems to think that Slayer revealed himself on purpose. Is he going to show up as Luc in the waking world in Caemlyn to get closer to Elayne somehow? The long lost Luc Mantear could be a strong political presence in light of the situation Elayne faces. So maybe Isam only took on Luc's features for some purpose and not because he actually exists as such. A re-read is definitely necessary. > > > I do NOT think that Slayer killed Ispan and Adeleas, though. There'd be no > need for the poison tea. > > BLACK AJAH: > > Well, we now know a lot more about BA and Warders. BA _can_ have Warders. > Some of those Warders are Darkfriends, and apparently the BA have a > variation on the Warder Bond that makes non-Black Warders obedient and > easily manipulated. > > We also have a better idea of who did kill Ispan and Adeleas. From the two > BA sections (the bit with Asne, Chesmal, and Temaile, and the bit with > Shiane and Marillin Gamelphin), we know that one of the AS with El and Ny > is Black Ajah. Occam's Razor tells us that this BA is the killer. (The > candidates are Vandene, Merilille, Sareitha, and Careane.) My only doubt > comes from the fact that Darkfriend Kin were ruled out too quickly. However the ignorance to the location of the Kin's cache in the Rahad seems to support the idea that no DF were among the Kin prior to the trip to the farm. Whether one was picked up there is possible. However none of the Kin that were picked up from the farm in the flight to Andor could be the murderer imo. > > > Elza: one of the pathetic bunch who were brainwashed by Verin and who > swore to Rand in TPOD, turns out to be a Darkfriend. That's some good > brainwashing on Verin's part! I wonder if Verin knows she's Black. > > Speaking of Verin, she looked like she was going to poison Cadsuane. It's > unclear to me whether she did it or not. I'm guessing not, because > Cadsuane is not dead, nor did she writhe on the floor to swear fealty to > Rand. But, what is it that changed Verin's mind? If Verin knows about the > BA, surely she knows, or has figured out, that the BA can lie. I doubt that Verin has a clue as to Elza's affiliation or otherwise she might have eliminated her. Verin's thoughts in TPOD, seem to point to her knowing Katerine was and regretting not killing her. I doubt she would let Elza live were she to suspect. --- JSH -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- From leigh_butler@paramount.com Sun Nov 12 23:02:08 CST 2000 Article: 456252 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail From: Leigh Butler Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Let's Review, Shall We? (Uber-Spoilers) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 20:35:15 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 158 Message-ID: <8uhm64$j8j$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.85.99.239 X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Nov 10 20:35:15 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x57.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 209.85.99.239 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDleigh_butler Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:456252 Okay, I haven't even looked at the other threads yet, seeing as I'm at work and loathe Deja, but dammit, I'm determined to get in my bid to be part of the WOT FAQ credits... Okay. I'm not about to cover everything, but there are some theories and points of interest I want to discuss, so this'll jump around a bit. First: Did anyone else read WH and think that RJ was going, "All right, FINE! You've been complaining that I don't wrap up plot threads? HERE'S SOME FRIGGIN' CLOSURE FOR YA!" I mean, yeesh. Not that I'm complaining, really, but sometimes it seemed almost...sledgehammerish. Well, whatever. What have we wrapped up here? Flipping around: TAIM IS NOT DEMANDRED, TAIM IS NOT DEMANDRED, NYAH NYAH NYAH NYAH NYAH! Taim is _not_ Demandred, at least AFAI am concerned. Chapter 22 "Out of Thin Air", pg. 441-442. I'm sure some die-hards will insist that these two paragraphs could be a trick, but RJ couldn't have been more blatant about clearing up the mystery if he'd tried. Osangar is Dashiva (CH. 35 "With the Choedan Kal", pg. 645). Wow. This is one theory I'd been sure was wrong... And he's dead. Again! (pg. 653). And killed by a Black sister! (Or is that former Black sister? What the hell is Elza's deal?) Not balefire though, which brings up the question of whether he's going to be resurrected. Again. God, I hope not. Enough with the goddamn resurrections already. Cadsuane's hair ornaments ARE ter'angreal. It's also even more clear now than it was in POD that the "thing she's going to teach" Rand and the Asha'man is laughter and tears - which probably has nothing to do with the hair ornaments, really. This is probably obvious to everyone, but I brought it up as just one more FAQ section Pam can finally finish off. Luc/Isam was the one who killed the two Black sisters in the Stone of Tear (their names escape me at the moment) AND the Gray Man in the Tower a zillion books ago (Ch. 22, pg.448). This revelation makes it very likely, IMO, that Luc/Isam has something to do with Sheriam's torturer (though he couldn't BE the tormentor, since whoever it is can wield the OP and Slayer can't) - the body was left in Sheriam's bed as either part of or the beginning of her torture. Why Sheriam? Probably something to do with the fact that she was Mistress of Novices at the time (access to the Supergirls) and was part of the Salidar Six later. If anyone needs any MORE clues that Ishamael is Moridin, they're brain-dead. Same goes for Cyndane/Lanfear. Though I'm really not clear on whether she died (again) at Alivia's hands. In fact, other than Dashivan'gar, it's not at all clear who of the Forsaken _did_ survive. More on that below. Mat's back, baby! I was so relieved. I got to almost the halfway point without him appearing and was about to have a heart attack. And Tuon is the DOTNM. Is anyone really shocked by this? Though her character was not really what I was expecting. Of course, of course, of COURSE, Egeanin and Domon didn't drop the Sad Bracelets in the sea, and now Suroth has them. Way to go, guys. Bang up job there. Dumbasses. Okay, enough of wrapping up, I know there's more but I'm more interested in other stuff at the moment. Like: New mysteries: The colors Mat, Perrin, and Rand see now whenever they think of each other. They only seem to actually hurt Rand (cause he's, y'know, so well-balanced and all anyway). I propose that they are directly related to Min's viewing of the fireflies and darkness. How? Dunno. This third guy LTT keeps blathering about. I don't know who he is, but I bet HE is the one involved in Min's viewing about Rand and another guy merging into each other and one dying, and _not_ LTT. Also - could this third guy be the face Mat and Rand almost seem to see in the colors at a couple of points? New Icons! Dude. Faile gets her own? (Ch. 3 & 6) Dammit, that probably means she's even more a major character in the future than she's been so far. Crap. Though she seems to be improving...I was gratified, by the way. that she and Perrin only appeared in the first few chapters and then disappeared for the rest of the book. I needed a break from them and that whole storyline. Will someone PLEASE kill Sevanna already? What's with the hand/sword/oval flag icon? (Ch. 23 & 32) Was that for Far Madding or is that some kind of reference to Rand losing a hand? Probably Far Madding. Though what it means then, other than just being a coat of arms or something, is beyond me. I think that the sword-and-anchor icon of Ch. 21 is new (it doesn't appear in the FAQ, at any rate). Stands for Egeanin and Domon, seems like. Or maybe battle at sea. I just have one comment to make about the entirety of Chapter 12, "A Lily in Winter": FUCKING FINALLY! (And you can take that any way you'd like.) Okay, last comment, I promise. Chapter 35, "With the Choedan Kal". That was some crazy shit. Dude. I'll have to reread that, but now I predict we will spend the next two years arguing over who of the bad guys did and did not survive and why. And hey, while we're at it, did you notice that only the Forsaken who were at the meeting earlier showed, with the notable exception of Moridin? No Semi, no Mesaana, no Sammael (who you know goddamn good and well is not dead). It's not like they couldn't have noticed...right? And I'm spent. I'll probably think of tons more I wanted to say right after I post this, but this is long enough already. Discuss. -- Leigh Butler leigh_butler@paramount.com *********************************************************** The opinions expressed above do not necessarily reflect those of Paramount Pictures or its affiliates. -- Leigh Butler leigh_butler@paramount.com *********************************************************** The opinions expressed above do not necessarily reflect those of Paramount Pictures or its affiliates. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. From jsn@concentric.net Sun Nov 12 23:21:01 CST 2000 Article: 457290 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!ts006d48.chi-il.concentric.NET!not-for-mail From: jsn@concentric.net (John S. Novak, III) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: WH: Bad Guy Roundup (SPOILERS) Date: 12 Nov 2000 23:42:38 GMT Organization: Cynics Central Lines: 222 Message-ID: References: Reply-To: jsn@concentric.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ts006d48.chi-il.concentric.net (206.173.186.60) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 974072558 2480844 206.173.186.60 (16 [39511]) X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.3 UNIX) Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:457290 On Sun, 12 Nov 2000 22:34:02 GMT, P. Korda wrote: >First in a series of WH commentary. Yeah, I know there is a lost of >that already going on, but I'm going to be socially irresponsible and >start another thread, in the hope that people will post their ideas in >MY threads, so I can find them easily. Heh. It peeves me that about three seconds after I posted my reviews, I realized that I forgot to include my name in the title of the thread for easy reference. (No, I'm not above starting my own vanity thread, I just forgot. I did it last time, I think.) Spoilers: >GENERAL: >1) It seems like the supposed proscription against killing Rand was either >a limited-time thing, or just a general guideline, since during the >Forsaken Coffee Hour in WH, they speak openly of killing Rand. I think it was a circumstance limited thing, with Ishamael having the authority to change the ircumstances as he sees fit. This meshes with the idea that Ishamael knows more details of the Dark One's intent than anyone else (hence his being Nae'blis) and the idea that the Dark One has varying victory conditions and goals. His highest victory probably includes turning Rand, but failing that, killing him is a lesser victory. >2) The Forsaken know about the resurrections of Aginor, Balthamel, and >Ishamael, and know who is who. This, I think, is the end result of a >process begun with the creation of the Gars back in LOC, continued with >the mindtrapping of Moggy and Cynfear, and the gathering in of Graendal in >TPOD. Clearly, the other Forsaken were "gathered in" offscreen. Also >clearly, Moridin has known about all of them all along, otherwise, he >wouldn't have been able to gather them in. It may also signify a slight change of plan on Jordan's part-- this time, a change toward wrapping things up. Initially, Moghedien seemed to have absolutely no idea who or what Aran'gar was, and that seemed to argue that transmigrated Forsaken were kep secret from the living ones. I was mildly surprised by that turn-around, that now everyone knows who they are and that they're out in the open. So to speeak. >RAHVIN, BEL'AL, ASMODEAN: Still dead. appily so. >AGINOR/OSAN'GAR: >Was, in fact, Dashiva all along. All of things I thought didn't make sense >didn't make sense because of a lack of information, not because they were >wrong. Dashiva appeared to be trying to kill Rand in TPOD because he WAS >trying to kill Rand, and had not been forbidden from doing so. Apparently. This is sort of annoying, as I had read the proscription against killing Rand as having been firm, until Ishamael learned he was trying to cleanse saidin. >It seemed >odd for the Dark Side to be double-teaming Rand with Taimandred and >Dashivan'gar, but it seems as if the Dark Side was double-teaming Rand with >Demandred (who, after all, might not be Taim) and Dashiva'gar. It was said >that if Dashiva was a Forsaken, he was the Limper of the Forsaken (ref. >Cook's Black Company books), and sure enough, Aginor/Osan'gar/Dashiva >is/was the Limper of the Forsaken. ^^^^^^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^^^^^^ Great minds think alike. >He's managed to get killed TWICE. I >wonder if the DO will bother resurrecting him again. Let's hope not. >I must say that the >Dark Side really didn't make use of him very well. He should have been >working hard in a monster lab, not wasting time doing a spy job which any >halfway competant Darkfriend could have done just as well. Perhaps there wasn't enough equipment. >BALTHAMEL/ARAN'GAR/HALIMA: >As we've known for a while, is Egwene's masseuse. She believes she has >Egwene totally under her thumb, but what is she DOING? The headaches >obviously have something to do with it, either as a "fake cause" to make Eg >dependent on Halima's massages, or as a side effect of whatever bad juju >she is working on Egwene. If she's Compelling her or something, it is very >subtle. Other people have pointed to her rapid about-face regarding the Oaths as one indication. I think I am convinced by that-- the Oaths provide excellent camoflage (literally) for the Dark Oaths of the Black Ajah. >GRAENDAL: >Graendal's plan seems to be to avoid making waves, and let the other >Forsaken get themselves killed. For somebody as powerful as she supposedly >is, she really doesn't do much. Of course, she could be executing some >brilliant strategy off-screen, and will end up Nae'blis after all. Well, she seemed to have picked up Jain Charin. And she's one of three Forsaken thus far who haven't been killed or had a near death experience somewhere along the line. She can't be too stupid. >ISHAMAEL/MORIDIN: >But, what was up with sending all the Chosen to get their asses kicked at >Shadar Logoth? Is he still underestimating Rand, at this point in the >game? If he'd really wanted Rand's plan stopped, couldn't he have >mobilized a bunch of DFs to lend support to the Forsaken, or gotten the DO >to let them use the True Power (which would have kept them from becoming >targets like they did), or gotten the Forsaken better intelligence >(Demandred was surprised to find an Asha'man there), or participated >himself? Something is stinky with that scheme. Maybe it was an exercise to >demonstrate to the Chosen that _they_ need to take Rand more seriously? That's an interesting thought. It could be just another chopping away at the chaff. He wasn't sorry to see Aginor go the first time, either. >LANFEAR/CYNDANE: >An interesting line is: "[Alivia] was stronger than Cyndane had been before >the Aelfinn and Eelfinn had held her." More interesting was the disbelief, the thought that that was impossible. >MESAANA: >aka, Dame Not-Appearing-in-this-Book. Moridin comments that her absence >from the Coffee Hour is "A pity. She should hear what I have to say.... >Small, apparently unimportant matters can become very important." As far >as I can tell, the only thing Mesaana lost from missing the meeting >is getting her butt kicked at Shadar Logoth. Well, I think the reason she was missing is because she knws there's both a purge going on, and an army approaching the Tower. Hence, the desire to avoid anything suspicious. But there are exactly three places that are going to _immeiately_ be sent into convulsions over what happened at Shadar Logoth, and two of them concern Mesaana directly. One is the Black Tower. The other two are the White Tower and the Little Tower, both of which she needs to worry about. (Obviously, the damane/suldam communities, the Wise Ones, and the Windfinders will go bonkers, too, but they're less geographically concentrated than the first three.) >MOGHEDIEN: >Shows up at the end, stays out of the fight. And apparently, is no longer afraid. >SAMMEAL: >Has returned. IMO, he is the mystery guy who Slayer speaks to in TAR, who >sent Slayer to kill Rand and Min in Far Madding. I resign myself to looney theory-dom that Isam's boss on that was Taim. >SEMIRHAGE: >As has been pointed out, Sem has got to be Tuon's scarey retainer, Anath. >The description, personality, and situation all match up. Poor, poor Mat. I wonder if she takes his eye out? >DEMANDRED: >Okay, so if Taim is Taim, then where is Demandred? I think he may still be >with the Asha'man, and working with Taim. Here's why: I find it easy to believe he's working with Taim, but not as easy to believe that he's just one of the Asha'man. Are you working up to the idea that Demandred is Mishraile, and that he's giving Taim lessons rather than the other way around? [...] Ah, you're not. Well, put that down as my guess: Not convinced Demandred is posing as an Asha'man, but if he is, it's Mishraile. >SURVIVAL POTENTIAL: >So, who survived that battle at the end? Most of 'em, IMO. I think RJ >even tells us so. I agree. Everyone but the Limper. >That's it for the Forsaken, now for the other baddies: >BLACK AJAH: >Elza: one of the pathetic bunch who were brainwashed by Verin and who >swore to Rand in TPOD, turns out to be a Darkfriend. That's some good >brainwashing on Verin's part! I wonder if Verin knows she's Black. Elza was also worked over by the Aiel. She had two brainwashing teams on her. And I doubt Verin knew she was Black Ajah. -- John S. Novak, III jsn@concentric.net The Humblest Man on the Net From kor2@midway.uchicago.edu Sun Nov 12 23:48:57 CST 2000 Article: 457384 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!not-for-mail Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: WH: Perrin and Mat. Spoilers Organization: *sniff* X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: kor2@midway.uchicago.edu (P. Korda) Lines: 96 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 974085839 128.135.12.7 (Sun, 12 Nov 2000 21:23:59 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 21:23:59 CST Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 03:23:59 GMT Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:457384 Second in a series. This time, I'll remember the spoiler space: Most of this is about Mat's story, but I figured that I'd just stick Perrin into the beginning, since there isn't much to say about that section, anyway. PERRIN & FAILE Six chapters of nothing much really happenning. At least it's all the worst characters all in one place, and it's at the beginning of the book, so that it doesn't interrupt the action, later on. Faile is so obnoxious. And, really messed-up in the mental department, as well. Don't even get me started on the Aiel. I wish somebody would stomp them, already. I mean, I can only suspend my disbelief so far. They're super desert fighters, sure. Now, exactly how to explain how it is that they are super winter fighters, too? They should be dropping from hypothermia. I have hopes that the Seanchan can kick the Shaido's collective ass, at least. Mutual destruction is probably too much to hope for. MAT'S EBOU DAR ADVENTURES: Yay, Mat! As I've mentioned, even though not a lot _actually_ happens in Mat's bit, Mat is cool, so it's fun to read about him, even when he's just messing about. First, I just want to say that Tylin is a horrible, horrible woman. Second, the Seanchan are a horrible, horrible people. Just like Perrin's ta'verenness has drawn all the annoying characters to him, Mat's ta'verenness seems to have drawn all the long-missing characters to him. His posse currently includes Egeanin and Bayle Domon, the DotNM, and Jain Farstrider. Plus, Thom, Juilan, Amathera, some Aes Sedai and a trio of disillusioned sul'dam. And, potentially, Valan Luca and Aludra (who is working on making cannon). It is too bad that Mat did not think of Nynaeve's scheme of putting the sul'dam on the collar end of the a'dam. I have a feeling that not all the AS are going to make it out. That escape party is so big, there is bound to be difficulty in getting out of Ebou Dar. The Daughter of the Nine Moons: She actually seems like a fairly nice gal, >from her POV section. Apart from all of her dreadful cultural beliefs, of course, but she's young, so maybe she can get over it. Potentially, she and Mat could make a really good couple. They both have that self-deprecation thing going on. They're both somewhat mischievious. Since she is not Mat's preferred physical type, there's a chance that he'll get to know her before putting a move on her. That is, of course, assuming that he manages to get out of Ebou Dar, and doesn't end up in a dungeon. There is something refreshingly egalitarian in Mat's approach to the world. He basically gives everybody the same consideration, regardless of their station in life. He's not naturally snooty, like, say, Faile, nor does he allow himself to be forced to behave snootily, due to the influence of others, like, say, Perrin. Tuon will probably find him rather shocking, when she realizes how much more there is to him than was apparent from his role as Tylin's toy-boy. Semirhage will surely not be pleased if her charge gets away from her, and I expect Mat might be in for a world of hurt. What was it the Foretelling that damane said to Tuon that upset her so much? That she'd marry somebody not of the Blood? That she'd betray the Empire somehow? Surely, it had something to do with the reason she seemed so happy to get kidnapped. I suppose we'll have to wait until next book to find that out, too. The more I think about it, the more I wish that Perrin's section had been left out, and the space devoted to the further adventures of Mat. That's some cliffhanger RJ left us on. From kor2@midway.uchicago.edu Mon Nov 13 10:22:02 CST 2000 Article: 457480 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!not-for-mail Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: WH: Girl Power (SPOILERS) Organization: *sniff* X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: kor2@midway.uchicago.edu (P. Korda) Lines: 101 Message-ID: <8FLP5.90$Y3.809@uchinews> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 974096068 128.135.12.7 (Mon, 13 Nov 2000 00:14:28 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 00:14:28 CST Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 06:14:28 GMT Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:457480 Third in a series, this one concerning Elayne's story. Spoilers. THE CHICKS: Even with the gratuitous nudity, the first-sister ceremony was really, really good. It seems to be much more serious than the Aiel marriage ceremony, and the sister-bond is certainly beyond anything we know about husband-wife relations. This, I suppose is in line with what we know of how the Aiel value marriage relations, compared to adopted first-sister relations. (A man is expected to marry both first-sisters, even if he only likes one of them.) I wonder the relationship between non-adopted first-sisters is considered to be nearly so important. The Sea Folk are still annoying. Elayne really needs a serious political advisor, like Thom, to help her negotiate with them, as well as with everybody else. We know from two sources that there is one BA among the AS with Elayne. I would bet that this person is the one who killed Adeleas and Ispan. We can forget about Aviendha being pregnant. For one thing, she would not have done the first-sister ceremony if she knew she was with child, since "the unborn are not strong enough for [the ceremony]." If she was pregnant, she'd know, because Nynaeve Delved her at the beginning of TPOD. >From WH (p. 274), we see that Delving is a _very_ thorough examination, and surely it would detect something so significant as a second-trimester pregnancy. Furthermore, any plot potential from having somebody be pregnant with Rand's kid will be fulfilled by Elayne, so there is no point in Avi being pregnant, too. Having said that, Min's visions of Randspawn are a little disturbing. Firstly, holy multiple births, Batman! Second, what's up with Avi's quadruplets? I really don't think Randland has the technology to deal with a quadruple pregnancy. Maybe two of them are Elayne's? Then we _would_ have two women pregnant with Rand's kids, which does seem rather redundant. Aviendha and Min seem to get along okay. Which, IMO, is too bad. I'd expect a little more animosity between two strangers who are both in love with the same guy. Tangentially related to this topic, there seems to be some disagreement on this newsgroup as to whether she is suspicious of Hanlon or not. Personally, I think that she is clueless. The furthest her 'suspicion' goes is thinking that he's a little sleazy. "Keeping an eye on spies" is one thing, but deliberately making one into the captain of your bodyguard, putting him in a postition to hire more spies, or even kill you at will, is just plain nuts. Birgitte: Min as a vision of an ugly older man, and then of an ugly younger man. Obviously Gaidal Cain, in his archetypal form, and then in his recent incarnation, some years into the future. Note that this doesn't tell us anything as to whether Olver is GC. We know that GC has been spun out, and when he grows up will be an ugly man, significantly younger than Birgitte. That will be true whether he is Olver, or Joe Al'Schmoe. This vision does, however, settle the question of whether or not Birgitte is still bound to the wheel. She is still tied to Gaidal Cain, which, IMO, says that she is still playing out her archetypal part. As I have been saying for a long time, getting "ripped away" from TAR was just the Wheel's way of spinning her out, this time 'round. Talene the Sea Folk Super-channeller wants to run away and be Aes Sedai, and she's under the impression that Nynaeve has said she could. Nynaeve, methinks, would do well to postpone returning to Caemlyn. Wild-Assed guess on the eventual future of the White Tower: a place for all the different channelling societies to get together and learn from each other, in a non-confrontational manner. The chapter prior to El's meeting with the BoTO army is one of the most boring things I have ever read. El's scheme regarding the BoTO army is actually not that shabby. Too bad about that OTHER army which is about to beseige Caemlyn, which the Borderlanders are now set to march right into. Will they think that Elayne deceived them? Where DID that extra army come from, anyway? They seem to have appeared awfully suddenly. Finally, is the Black Tower in the path of either of these armies? -pam From siu99abc@rdg.ac.uk Tue Nov 14 16:23:22 CST 2000 Article: 458100 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!newspharm.inet.tele.dk.MISMATCH!news.tele.dk!194.176.220.129!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!server3.netnews.ja.net!news.rdg.ac.uk!not-for-mail From: Adam Benedict Canning Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: WH: Long Review (spoilers) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 13:08:08 +0000 Organization: University of Reading Lines: 60 Message-ID: <3A113938.37448647@rdg.ac.uk> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: supc592.reading.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: susscsc1.reading.ac.uk 974207289 24298 134.225.84.46 (14 Nov 2000 13:08:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: suqsandc@rdg.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Nov 2000 13:08:09 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:458100 "Kenneth G. Cavness" wrote: > > Foolishly giving up the right to remain silent, > emccoy@hamilton.edu wrote... > > Kenneth G. Cavness writes: > > > > Spoilers... sorry for those with a broken newsreader. > > I'm a bit nicer. > > > > > o Notable by their absence were Elaida and Gawyn. They were not > > > > missed. > > > > > I wanted something from the White Tower, actually. Guess that's the > > > Next Book(tm). > > > > Technically, we got something from the WT. > > Not really. All the stuff we saw was from just before Eggy left > Murandy. And the bit on the cover of the Orbit version. > > Perhaps more fundamentally, there will always be a ghost of SL in the > > world: those would do anything to oppose the Shadow. Hell, Ingtar > > would have joined up with SL, had it been a recruiting force at the > > time. > > Well, that evil seemed to be pretty darn special, or concentrated, > or something like. Aridhol turned its hatred in on itself, in the > end, and created a new evil. And yet there is a funny thing about the Citadel of Light. Nothing has happened to it. and they've being barking mad and evil for far longer than Aridhol was. > I still don't know, at this point, whether Shadar Logoth's > evil was the same as the Dark One's evil. I've always been > in the camp that they were two totally separate evils. Difficult to say. It would be very unusual for a Fantasy novel to do something of this sort, which is why I like the Idea, but there have been mentions of a similarity between the Gholam and Mordieth. > And I'm not sure what the "Singed Forsaken" thing meant. Hurt them badly enough they had to run. > One little thought: will Osan'gar be resurrected yet *again*? > AGINOR, I WANT MORE GHOLAM, OR ELSE. Of the Forsaken, he was chosen for his skills, which probably are not any less valuable now. And he was killed obeying orders, which puts him on the queue for another body. Adam From thom_jeffries@my-deja.com Tue Nov 14 16:25:03 CST 2000 Article: 458174 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail From: Thom Jeffries Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: Issues Resolved & Unresolved in WH Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 16:21:08 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 299 Message-ID: <8uropa$6k0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8unb7c$c4vq$1@newssvr06-en0.news.prodigy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.121.54.5 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Nov 14 16:21:08 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows NT 4.0) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x58.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 63.121.54.5 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDthom_jeffries Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:458174 In article <8unb7c$c4vq$1@newssvr06-en0.news.prodigy.com>, "Ecthelion" wrote: > SPOILER SPACE FOR PEOPLE TO STUPID AND LAZY TO TO REALIZE WH IS OUT AND > EVERYONE ON THIS NEWSGROUP IS POSTING THEIR THOUGHTS ABOUT IT - IF YOU > HAVEN'T READ IT YET THEN STAY OFF THE NEWSGROUPS UNTIL YOU DO!!!!!! > > ! > ! > ! > ! > ! > ! > ! > ! > ! > ! > ! > ! > ! > !SPOILER SPACE > ! > ! > ! > ! > ! > ! > ! > ! > ! > ! > > Alrighty then! Time to post my few cents worth on WH - none in any > particular order. All comments, disagreements, thoughts, rants etc > are welcome. > > First off - Issues resolved(mostly) in WH: > > 1. Taim is not Demandred - Kisman's POV in Far Madding before Fain > offs him combined with Demandred's POV when he sees Flinn and doesn't > know who or what he is pretty much settles this. After all, Flinn > was the first person Taim tested and worked with. I, like most other > was pretty surprised by this one. I was sure it was him - dammit! I was pretty sure too, although I remember being a fan of Bashandred at one point during LoC. Anyway, the question remains...who's going to work out the character list from Lord of Chaos that _could_ still be Demandred considering the dialogue presented at the Forsaken Social in WH? Or need he be included in the books at all so far? Perhaps not if he's Taim's patron. > 2. Taim is a darkfriend - Maybe under Demandred's control. Again, > Kisman's POV, plus his posting of Rand's Ashaman on traitor's tree, > and all his lieutenant's being darkfriends should settle this. Yup. I wanna see Logain toast his ass once and for all. Another big question remains about _how_ he's running the Black Tower. We don't have any clue as to how many Ashaman are getting "private lessons" from WH, and that's a bit worrisome. Could Taim be holding Dedicated back >from becoming Ashaman because they won't commit to his faction? None of the channellers with Logain were full Ashaman... > 3. Anath is Semirhage. Tall & strikingly beautiful; not much of a > Seanchan accent; the motherly way in which she inflicts pain on Tuon; > previous comments in LoC about Semirhage's "willful charge" combined > with Tuon's POV about her own willfulness/stubborness; Tuon's other > truth-saying dying by falling downstairs about two years ago (just > after the Forsaken were released); comments in the Chosen meeting > about the difficulty of Semi attending the meeting make this one > pretty obvious. Yes, RJ could be jerking our chain like he did with > the Taim/Demandred thing, but it seems very unlikely. I hope he's not jerking out chain. Nice summation of the circumstancial evidence btw. > 4. The Taint is removed from Saidin - ABOUT FREAKING TIME! The > assumption seems to be that channeling it into Shadar Logoth would be > a sort of matter/antimatter situation - ie they would destroy each > other. Mashandar attacks the taint like it would any shadowspawn. > Any thoughts on Herid Fel's note about - you must clear the rubble > before you can rebuild? Reference to Shadar Logoth? I also do think > it is completely gone in spite of Cadsuane's musings about Saidin. > If Flinn and Narishma think it is clean then it is. As for Fel's note, it could be referring to the sealing of the Bore. Rand (and others) seem to be heading toward having male-female rings again, which is one of the prime reasons the sealing of the Bore didn't work out for LTT and the 100 Companions. Rand holds off the DO until his posse closes the Bore? > 5. Isam/Luc killing the BA AS in the Stone and the Gray Man in the > White Tower. Most likely he was Asmodean's killer as well. *growl* If this is true, I'm gonna beat myself about the head with a 2x4. All the clues really were there and fairly easy to deduce (for RJ's perspective of course) for Isam's powers with TAR. As for his name 'Slayer', I guess RJ really was trying to smack us with the "obvious" stick. I'm still not fully convinced. Damn RJ for mentioning those two servants... > 6. New Forsaken-Strength channeler in the person of Alivia. I know > some people are whining about the inclusion of these new uber > channelers, like Talaan and Sharina as well, but it goes to reason > that there would be a few others out there. One woman from Seanchan, > one from the Sea-Folk, and one from Randland is not exactly a flood. > I think an interesting comparison between Alivia and Nynaeve is to > see them as two opposites, one who cares only about destroying and > the other who is interested only in healing. Also, Alivia is supposed > to help Rand die at the last battle - Nynaeve will help him to live. > All those not to obvious hints about her not being satisfied till she > heals someone three days dead make this a forgone conclusion. Maybe not forgone, but pretty bloody likely. There's too much Arthur and Jesus mixed into that particular prophecy for it to be completely bogus. But remember, RJ hammered us with an 'almost-smile' from Taim for a few books now, and lookey what we got there... > 7. Aginor = Osangar = Dashiva = scattered ashes. Dashiva was just > too strong and knew too many unusual weaves. Now our favorite mad > scientist - or Mr. Burns ala The Simpsons - gets blowed up real > good. Seeya! Actually, probably not - doubtful the DO will give him > a third chance. Can we all say tortured for eternity? That's what I'm hoping for. Aginor was such a putz. Did he do a single thing right the entire series? > 8. VERIN IS NOT BLACK AJAH! Her POV when she sees Graendal and > thinking that a captured Forsaken would be most useful should put > this one to rest. Darkfriends always refer to them as the Chosen. > She did look as if she were going to off Cadsuane, but realizing that > Cadsuane is really trying to preserve Rand until the last battle, she > changes her mind. Makes me wonder if she freed herself from the Oath > Rod as I suspect Cadsuane did as well. She's still got the mystery to her though. Exactly why is she so hell-bent on Rand's survival? What sort of things happened 70 years ago? What's the deal with her hiding her identity in Far Madding? As for the last, we could guess that she used a Well in Far Madding before, and that's why the Counsels have the warrant for her. She did _something_ to that Ogier in the stedding, perhaps indicating that she does have a Well in her possession (the ter'angreal she thought that the Tower had forgotten about?). The question remains...why did she channel in Far Madding? > 9. Cyndane = Lanfear. Her POV's conclusively prove this. Her > capture by the Aelfinn reduced her power somewhat, but she is still > incredibly strong. Graendal comments that Cyndane is stronger that > she is in PoD. I am looking forward to comments at the next Chosen > gathering about the results of the battle between them and Rands > Ashaman and Aes Sedai. Let's figure this out for a sec. Mat was told by the Aelfinn (according to the chapter title from WH) that he was fated to marry the Dot9M. That makes the Rhuidean doorway a gate to the Eelfinn. There are two places (Forsaken social and Cyndane's POV) that indicate that both the Eelfinn _and_ Aelfinn held her. What the heck? We've had some indication that the world they inhabit is similar, and Birgitte comments that the Tower of Ghenji is the gateway to the realm of the Aelfinn _and_ Eelfinn, but ain't this the first conclusive evidence they work together, not just inhabit the same wierd reality? > 10. I liked the fact that Rand let Narishma use Callandor. I > suspect he will end up with Forsaken-Strength power when he peaks. > Perhaps we all should stop using Forsaken Strength power when > referring to the Ashaman. Maybe 100 Companions Strength? Also, some > posters seem to be forgetting that comment Moraine made to Rand in > TSR about how he could possible defeat all of the Forsaken while > holding Callandor. Also, the final chapter may have been a > fulfillment of Egwene's vision of a young man holding a shining > sword in his hand. Moiraine's been wrong before. She didn't know about the flaw after all. I hope Narishma gets some personality soon to go with his badass-ness. He spent several scenes in the last chapter having his head _patted_ for crying out loud! > 11. Way cool that Flinn discovers how to heal Stilling just like > Nynaeve did. This also shows that a male channeler is needed to heal > a woman back to full strength and vice-versa. It may not be a case of men vs. women. We get hit with the "different weave => same effect" for gateways from Aviendha, and numerous occasions where we are told about the gestures that accompany particular weaves being necessary if the channeller learned the weave with the gesture. It's possible Damer just figured out a _better_ way to heal female stilling that Nynaeve did. > Unresolved Issues (mostly): > > 1. Isam/Luc's mysterious patron? Looks like Sammael is still alive > to me. I never liked his "death" scene in ACoS anyway. Every other > Forsaken's death is very clear, his was uncertain. Sammael's really the only one who needs to hide his identity. He's probably out of the loop on the recall of the "Don't Kill Rand" rule, and so would still want to keep himself hidden. I'm sure he doesn't want to be gathered in to the Moridin Club, since that would go against his last-Forsaken-standing strategy. All of this assumes he's still alive of course. > 2. Does anyone else think that Fain will have some sort of Gollum > like role at Shayol-Gul at the last battle? Perhaps. I've always been keen on Rand tossing Fain into the Bore to distract/fight/whatever the DO while the Bore is re-sealed. If that ain't Gollum-like, I don't know what is. Another idea I had was that Rand's wound is one of only three sources of Shadar Logoth taint, the others being Fain and the dagger. I don't know if RJ will use the same SL-taint vs. DO-Taint again for the last scene, but any of these sources _could_ be used to poison/fight/etc. the DO. > 3. Are the Ways now cleansed because the Taint has been removed? Or > will Rand have to use the Male Choeden Kal on them as well? I'm not so sure. Damming a river doesn't make the water in the lake downstream disappear. We just have too little info on the Black Wind at this point. > 4. Who is this third person LTT is talking about? Cadsuane tells Rand that the madness from the Taint includes hearing voices. Rand hears his previous incarnation, LTT. When LTT went mad, it follows that he may have begun hearing the previous incarnation before him, thus we get LTT rambling about the old voice in his head, himself, and Rand. A question that remains is...could LTT's previous incarnation hold any knowledge about sealing up the Bore from the last time the DO was about to break free or not? > 5. Is Rand still going to have LTT's voice in his head? If so, will > LTT be insane still? Will there still be afteraffects from the Taint? Again, we just don't know enough about the Taint- madness to know just yet. I hope LTT and Rand are cured, since Rand would be a serious badass if LTT actually _told_ him how to work saidin, instead of Rand stumbling across LTT's experience ad hoc. > 6. Is Elayne keeping Hanlon around because she knows the attack on > her was too elaborate? The comments she makes about spoon-feeding a > spy make this likely. Ugh. Do we really care? > 7. Will Rand's spawnlings - at least six coming that we know about - > maybe more with Min - all be able to channel? Unlikely we will ever > find this one out, since it will be many years after TG. I thought this was kind of abrupt. A day of lovemaking gets Elayne pregnant? The Pattern musta been swirling hard around Rand that day. > 8. Lastly, the colors in the heads of all three Taveren - a warning > to get together ASAP? Signifying the Last Battle is just around the > corner? Hopefully. "Three more books at least" is the latest word from RJ, which means the next installment could be nothing but Windfinders, Aes Sedai, Kin and Wise Ones, and RJ would still have plenty of time to wrap it up in the last two. NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! Thom Jeffries -- spell checker hell is when the ward is spilled write in the chequer can't tall. -Anon Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. From d_gillmore@hotmail.com Tue Nov 14 22:23:54 CST 2000 Article: 458333 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!newsfeed.stanford.edu!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cambridge1-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!bos-service1.ext.raytheon.com!cyclone.swbell.net!nnrp3.sbc.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Reply-To: "Drew Gillmore" From: "Drew Gillmore" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan References: <3a0a2d40.138888524@news.mindspring.com> <8udjcm$pl0@llama.swcp.com> <3a0e3b4b.6915338@news.mindspring.com> <8ulg52$63t@llama.swcp.com> Subject: Re: Winter's Heart Thoughts - SPOILERS back Lines: 261 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 17:04:56 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.188.16.8 X-Complaints-To: abuse@swbell.net X-Trace: nnrp3.sbc.net 974243275 208.188.16.8 (Tue, 14 Nov 2000 17:07:55 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 17:07:55 CST Organization: SBC Internet Services Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:458333 "Jim Hill" wrote: : Laura M. Parkinson wrote: : >jimhill@swcp.com (Jim Hill) rhapsodized in blue: : >>>Okay, spoilers follow.... : >>Not anymore. : Okay, they're back... Whatever. : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : And wasn't it nice of me to throw a bone to the people with broken : newsreaders? And oh so resourceful of you to use just such a benevolant action to throw down a back handed derrogatory remark. Hill for Pres in '04. Nothin' but love for ya', Jim. My broken newsreader and I salute you. : >>Are you serious? Dick-all happened aside from two chapters, one in : >>mid-book and one featuring the ObJordanBigFinish at the end. Sure, we : >>got lots of descriptions of snug coats slashed with color and the : >>absence of good stout Two Rivers woolens but...what _happened_? Damn : >>little. Bleah. Bleah, and feh. (Did any of the broads sniff in this : >>one? I don't remember any sniffing, but I have to say I sort of stopped : >>paying close attention around page, um, 30.) : > : >Nothing happened? Nothing *happened*? We've gotten more given to us, : >and on a silver platter at that, than has happened in the past few : >books put together, probably. AND in a good style, except for a few : >dragging chapters. : : Comparison to the last two books as support for this one's quality are : misguided. Different comparisons. Action was limited, information was a bonus. Thumbs down on a couple dozen pages of filler and two pages of throw away comments that should have come three books ago, thumbs up that we finally got several of them all in one book. Thumbs up that the cleansing of saidin was not dragged out to Bowl Of Winds proportion, Thumbs down that it happened in the _last_ _fucking_ _chapter_ and we don't get to see what even the short terms effects are. We learned: Osan'Gar was Dashiva. (HA!) Lanfear is Cyndane. (HA!) Semirhage is _almost_ _assuredly_ Anatha.(1) Mat was in Ebou Dar, all along (You owe me, Donut Boy) Tuon is The Daughter of the Nine Moons. (HA! and _DOUBLE_ HA!) We did not learn: For _certain_ that Taim is not Demandred or vice versa(2) Who killed Asmodean(3) : What happened? Perrin's story was a goddamn waste, as the only thing : that has changed since the end of POD is that the captives have been : taken into the Aiel camp, and Perrin knows about the kidnapping and is : in Hot Pursuit. Or maybe not that hot. : : Mat, Thom, and Juilin decided to haul ass. 700 pages later, they'd made : it to the stables, albeit with Tuon in tow -- and as for Tuon, all we : learned is that she's on the mainland now with Semirhage posing as Anath : the Truthsayer (or whatever the hell that title translated to; I'm : hooked on Truthsayer because Gaius Helen Mohiam was cool). Damn, Hill. Did you get the deluxe expando version? My book only has ~650 pages. We learned that the color flashes has to do with the Ta'veren Triumverate and not as an association with the taint. We learned that Perrin can be just as Ta'veren As He Wants To Be. The last scene where Masema allows the One Power usage was good, and a clear example of the ta'veren twisting of fate on Perrin's part. We learned that Faile likes to have her bare bottom smacked. We learned that the gholam is still in Ebou Dar, for whatever reason. (4) But for the most part, I agree. The Perrin and Mat chapters were largely a waste of time. They really didn't accomplish anything except to position everything a bit more. Aiel, Perrin's Army, the Prophet and the remnants of the Whitecloaks descending into what appears to be the new stronghold of the Seanchan on this side of the ocean and the place that Mat is leaving >from with a bountiful entourage. All included, when this whole scene comes to a head we will have involved: Faile, cousin to a queen and daughter to a general, in line for the Broken Crown, married to a ta'veren Morgase, Ex-queen. Alliandre, queen of Ghealden and fealty sworn to Faile. Tuon, Daughter to the Empress of the Seanchan Empire and favored in succession, destined to marry a ta'veren. Anatha, her "Truth Speaker" and quite possibly one of the more interesting FS. Amathera, former Panarch in Tanchico. Galad, son of a queen and quite possibly a right to the Sun Throne in Cairhien, currently high among the Whitecloaks, following a man who abused his mother, and he is also brother to the Claimant to the Lion Throne. Thom Merrilin, Morgase's former lover and skilled in the game of Dum an' dum'er, also known as Pol'i'tiks. Berelain, Ruler of Mayene and descendant of Artur Hawkwing. Egeannin, Seanchan Royalty. Bayle Domon, the only joe normal guy that has had contact with just about _every_ major character save Perrin. Three leashed Aes Sedai, three renegade sul'dam. A whole shitload of annoying Shaido. And then Mat and Perrin. Now, if'n you're asking me, and I know you aren't but shut up and listen cause I'm going to tell you anyway, I say that the next book could consist of two chapters in which all of the above, save Mat and Perrin, die in horrible agonizing pain, after which Mat and Perrin go "Oh Well" and then go back to Rand, and I would be a happy, happy man. : Rand completed the boning trifecta and despite the new bonding between : the trio, neither Min nor Aviendha apparently thought to mention to : Elayne that she's having two, not one. Yet they must have mentioned the : up-knocking, as all Elayne's retainers are being irritatingly : solicitous. Or maybe they did and she forgot, seeing as how it was : necessary to infect her with Stupid Person Syndrome to get Hanlon close : to her...oh, but when she turns the tables on that rascally Darkfriend : Guardsman-Captain, we'll remember that POV where she thinks about : Morgase's decision to teach her "Keep your friends close but your : enemies closer" or "A spy in the hand is worth two in the bush" or some : other Lini-esque folderol. Trifecta? You betcha. I think she _is_ aware of Hanlon. But I think it's foolishness, either way. I'm rather pissed that Jordan didn't have Min or Rand bump into him, just to have something set up and taken care of within the same book. I think that would've been a record for Jordan. : >Since this is a non-spoilerfied thread now, I won't : >give specifics, but damn... what do you WANT? The book version of the : >Sistene Chapel, with illustrations and a free masseuse? : : What's up with Egwene, Galad, Gawyn, the shattered Whitecloaks, the : White Tower, the Black Tower, the Forsaken, Bela, the various : city-states other than Caemlyn, and so forth? This book focused like : the ObLaserBeam on our ta'veren lads and Rand's squeezes; for all that, : Rand's parting Elayne like the Red Sea, splitting her like a high-flying : stock, and cleansing the taint (which, in conjunction with the preceding : sexual references brings to mind a fine joke that I learned in grade : school) was pretty much it. What *is* that part called, anyway? : In other words, I was Underwhelmed. As others have said, this and POD : could have been joined into a single book with some 900 pages of cruft : tossed aside and we'd've been good to go. Set aside the last chapter : for a bit, because I'm in full agreement that it was a ball's-out blast : of good ol'-fashioned WOTness. Rand spent a book trying to hunt down : and kill a few guys that Fain got first. He also got laid again. : Perrin is so wild with worry over Faile that he hardly knows whether to : want to howl or to wish Mat and Rand were around to help him deal with : Berelain because they know how to act around women. Mat met the : Daughter and was almost absconding with her when RJ ran outta time. : Nynaeve did some more braid-tugging but until her long-awaited team-up : with Rand in the final chapter, her role in this book was to provide us : with a lot of scenes featuring the goddamned annoying Kin and the : goddamned annoying Windfinders. Too much to hope all those uppity : broads get the kneel-or-be-knelt treatment pronto. Min's back in : breeches with embroidered flowers that hug her hips snugly. Egwene is : still stuck wandering across Murandy as per POD. I agree with you on many points. Faile's POV could have been cut right out, Perrin's section could have been winnowed to a chapter. We could have had the taint cleansing about halfway through the book, and spent the second half dealing with the White Tower and other various subplots that were overlooked. But at this point, I'm happy with what I got. It wasn't overwhelmingly chock full of action and information, but for the first time in several books, it _answered_ more questions than it introtuced. And for my two and half years and twenty bucks, that's just enough to keep me mildly interested in what happens next, to call it "Bonus" and get on with my life, such as it is. : Daming with faint praise: I _did_ really like that last chapter, even : if one of you sunzabitches now has indelibly burned the image of a : finger-steepling Mr. Burnsan'gar "EHHHX-cellent!"ing his way through the : woods into my brain. I missed that. I'm going to have to go look that up. What I _didn't_ like about the last chapter was the way that only _one_ Baddy apparently bought the farm, and that's not even conclusive. However, if'n Dashiva'gar _is_ dead, that means the whole gang that tried to off Rand at the end of tPoD is dead, without Rand killing a one of them. And no one even _knows_ Dashiva was a Forsaken. That's something else that bothers me. But what happened to the rest? I'll guess we'll find out in a couple of years. -- Drew Gillmore d_gillmore@hotmail.com 1) The same people that will argue against this will be the same people that argued against Taimendred on the basis that it was "too obvious". 2)And _Bite_ _Me_ that they might have been right. I've said before that I won't take anything short of them being in the same room at the same time, or one _conclusively_ dying and the other living on as proof to the contrary. 3) And all of the sudden, when at last the Lanfear argument is in total remission, the "SLAYERDUNNIT!" is going to go on the rise. Damn Jordan. Damn him to hell for leaving this hanging. Graendal still did it. 4) Although I think the whole "serial killer gholam" thing was a bit overdone, and points to something amiss. And just who else was the gholam after in Ebou Dar? I thought for sure that he was going to follow the Wonder Twins. From sacooper@ozemail.com.au Mon Nov 20 11:47:05 CST 2000 Article: 460018 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!newsfeeds.bigpond.com!not-for-mail From: Steven Cooper Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Timeline for Winter's Heart (SPOILERS) (long) Reply-To: sacooper@ozemail.com.au Message-ID: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 387 Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 14:44:56 +1100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.54.71.56 X-Trace: newsfeeds.bigpond.com 974604882 203.54.71.56 (Sun, 19 Nov 2000 14:34:42 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 14:34:42 EST Organization: Telstra BigPond Internet Services (http://www.bigpond.com) Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:460018 WARNING! MASSIVE SPOILERS FOR THE ENTIRETY OF WINTER'S HEART! While reading through the backlog of several thousand WH posts, I noticed that quite a few people seem confused about the chronology of the series and what's going on during WH (comments about "twisted timelines" abounding, and so on). The main problem seems to be with Egwene's army Travelling to Tar Valon at the end of TPOD, and where it fits with what happens in the new book. Hopefully, this post will remedy the situation. I've combed through all the timing references in WH and, after a bit of struggling with what at first seemed contradictions but turned out not to be, assembled what I'm quite confident is the correct timeline. However, I haven't yet updated my "Tellings of the Wheel" WOT Chronology site (ObCommercial: http://www.users.bigpond.com/steven_cooper/wotchron.htm ) since feedback >from here may cause me to change things. After the timeline, I've put some notes on various topics, and my predictions for what we can expect in book 10, based on what stages the various plot threads have reached. As usual in my timelines, the new day is considered to begin at dawn. Stuff in square brackets represents events that we were told about, but never actually saw in direct narrative. Events that I can't be sure I've placed on the correct day are marked with "?". A non-proportional font is strongly recommended for reading the timeline. Otherwise, it will look very ugly indeed. To provide a bit of context (and also because some of the later TPOD events have had to move now that more information is available), I've started this timeline with Egwene's meeting with the Andoran and Murandian armies in TPOD, which is exactly one Randland month (28 days) before the rebel forces Travel to Tar Valon. Okay, here goes... Day Chapter 0 Feast of Abram. Egwene meets with the leaders of the opposing army. Talmanes tells her of his intention to remain in Murandy, waiting for Mat. In a meeting of the Hall, Egwene forces them to accept her authority through a declaration of war on Elaida. 8/17-19 1 2 Adeleas unmasks Garenia as Zarya Alkaese, a runaway novice. 8/20,28 Davram Bashere arrives at Rand's camp. 8/21 3 Rand's forces Travel to the Venir Mountains. Eagan Padros attempts to assassinate Rand. In a fight with Assid Bakuun's forces, the _sul'dam_ Nerith is captured. 8/22-23 4 5 [Rand's forces capture their first _damane_.] 8/23 6 7 8 Rand's forces battle Furyk Karede's men. Rand is shot by an arrow in a surprise Seanchan attack; Morr Heals him. Rand decides to attempt to take Ebou Dar. 8/23 9 Battle between Rand's forces and the Seanchan outside Ebou Dar. Rand eventually uses _Callandor_, out of control. With heavy casualties, both sides retreat. 8/24 ?[The Seanchan defeat Ailron near Jeramel, destroying the Amadician army and nobility.] 9/01 10 ?Alviarin returns to Tar Valon and forces Elaida to sign a decree recognising Rand and giving him the Tower's protection. 8/25 ?Using the Oath Rod, Seaine and Pevara unmask Zerah Dacan as one of the rebel AS spies. Their meeting is interrupted by four other AS, one of whom (Talene) refuses to swear on the Oath Rod. 8/26 ?Using the Chair of Remorse, Seaine and co. interrogate Talene. She reveals that she is Black Ajah, and thinks Elaida is too. 9/Pr Adeleas and Ispan are found murdered. 8/28 11 Toveine Gazal's expedition is captured by Logain's men. Toveine is bonded by Logain. 8/26 ?Rand returns to Cairhien. Merana and Rafela tell him of the Bargain made with the Sea Folk. The Maidens punish Rand for leaving them behind. 8/27 [Logain prevents the captured Aes Sedai at the Black Tower from taking revenge on Toveine.] 9/Pr 12 Elayne arrives in Caemlyn and claims the Lion Throne. 8/28 Daved Hanlon meets Shiaine, who is holding Falion (and another BA). Jaichim Carridin killed for his failures. 8/28 [The remainder of Toveine's expedition are captured and taken to the Black Tower.] 9/Pr 13 [Elayne summons Mazrim Taim to Caemlyn.] 9/Pr 14 15 Elayne orders Birgitte to recruit mercenaries and Hunters of the Horn to increase the numbers of the Palace Guard. 9/Pr Taim arrives in answer to Elayne's summons, and agrees to her demand to inspect the Black Tower. 9/Pr Elayne and Aviendha are bonded as first-sisters. 9/Pr [Masema meets with the Seanchan.] 8/30 16 At dawn, Taim brings news to Rand in Cairhien of Elayne's return to Caemlyn and her tearing down of Rand's banners. Five of the captured Aes Sedai swear fealty to Rand. Rand is attacked by Dashiva, with Gedwyn and Rochaid. Fedwin Morr loses his mind; Rand kills him. 8/29 [Rand and Min Travel to Rhuidean, where Rand lays a false trail by asking many questions about Shara.] 9/Pr [Daved Hanlon joins the Palace Guard in Caemlyn, using the alias of Doilin Mellar.] 9/10 17 Early in the morning, Toveine sees Elayne's party inspecting the Black Tower. Kajima tells Logain of the new deserters' names posted by Taim after his return from Cairhien. 9/Pr [Rand and Min Travel to Tear, where Rand lays another false trail by asking about Chachin.] 9/Pr 18 Rand and Min return to the Academy in Cairhien so that Min can retrieve Herid Fel's books. Rand appoints Dobraine steward of Cairhien in his absence. He and Min Travel to the wilderness near Tar Valon, where he tells Min he intends to remove the Taint from _saidin_. 9/Pr ?Elayne and Aviendha are accosted by street toughs while in disguise in Caemlyn at night. 9/07 19 Perrin confronts the Prophet. He convinces Masema to accompany him to Cairhien. Faile, Maighdin and Alliandre are captured by the Shaido. 8/30 Returning to his camp, Perrin learns Faile has been taken. 9/01-02 The Shaido take Faile and her companions to their camp, arriving after nightfall. 9/03 [Nynaeve sends eighteen of the Kin into Seanchan-occupied lands to find any Kin refugees there and bring them back to Caemlyn.] 9/08 20 Faile and the others discover they are in a huge Aiel encampment. Galina Heals them. They are given jewellery to mark them as Sevanna's _gai'shain_. Therava orders them to spy on Sevanna. Galina forces Faile to agree to fetch Therava's oath rod. 9/03-04 Perrin wakes in Berelain's bed. Berelain reports that Masema has brought his entire army to join them. Perrin prepares to move his forces south, following the Shaido. Masema decides to accompany him. 9/05-06 News arrives in Caemlyn of Naean and Elenia's escort being ambushed near Aringill. 9/07 The Seanchan _damane_ Alivia is released from her _a'dam_. 9/08 Dyelin brings news of the Borderland armies in Braem Wood. A faked assassination attempt, masterminded by Doilin Mellar (Daved Hanlon) is made on Elayne. She promotes Mellar to Captain of her bodyguard. 9/09-10 Elayne and Nynaeve meet with Egwene in _Tel'aran'rhiod_. They discover Luc watching them. 9/10 Asne, Chesmal, Eldrith and Temaile meet in Caemlyn. Temaile tells of spying on the girls in _Tel'aran'rhiod_. 9/10 [The last remaining captured sisters in the Aiel camp at Cairhien agree to swear fealty to Rand.] 9/13 [The _damane_ Lidya foretells Tuon's fate.] 9/14 21 In Caemlyn, Marillin Gemalphin informs Shiaine that one of the sisters in the Palace is Black Ajah. 9/10 [Merilille is dispatched to Braem Wood to contact the Borderland rulers.] 9/26 Rand and Min arrive in the Palace. He learns from Nynaeve that Egwene is Amyrlin. Nynaeve agrees to help him cleanse _saidin_. 9/11 Elayne, Aviendha and Min bond Rand. 9/12 In Cairhien, Alanna falls unconscious. Damer Flinn learns how to Heal stilling. Dobraine releases Caraline and Darlin from Arilyn's palace, and sends them on their way to Tear. 9/13 Demandred, Graendal, Osan'gar, Aran'gar and Cyndane, commanded by Moridin, meet near Shayol Ghul. Cyndane tells how Rand plans to use the Choedan Kal to cleanse _saidin_. 9/13 Tuon arrives in Ebou Dar aboard _The Victory of Kidron_, leading the _Corenne_. Seanchan settlers begin flooding out of Ebou Dar into the surrounding countryside. 9/14 Mat visits Aludra and tells her how the Seanchan have wiped out the Guild of Illuminators in Tanchico. Valan Luca agrees to let him travel with him out of Ebou Dar. Returning to the city, Mat is attacked by the _gholam_ and rescued by Noal Charin. 9/15-16 In the Tarasin Palace, Mat meets Tuon, Anath and Suroth. Tuon promises Tylin she will be raised to the Blood. 9/17 22 Elayne wakes to find that Rand has left Caemlyn, along with Min, Nynaeve, Lan and Alivia. 9/12 Mat visits The Wandering Woman and arranges to hide his clothes and gold there. He visits the bellmaker Calwyn Sutoma. 9/18 23 Mat continues to visit Aludra and Sutoma. 9/18 24 ?Tylin begins spending more time with Suroth and Tuon. Tuon begins following Mat discreetly. Sutoma bars Mat from any further visits. 9/18 [Rochaid arrives in Far Madding.] 9/22 [Alanna wakes up.] 9/25 25 ?Tuon finds Mat's _ashanderei_ and offers to buy it. 9/18 26 Mat pays another visit to The Wandering Woman. He agrees to help Joline, Teslyn and Edesina escape from Ebou Dar. 9/19 Bethamin encounters a Seeker who orders her to spy on Egeanin. 9/20 Bethamin tells Egeanin and Bayle Domon of the Seeker. Domon decides to look for Mat and Thom. 9/21 Rand finds and kills Rochaid in Far Madding. Kisman escapes, but is killed by Padan Fain. 9/22 Rand's party leave their rooms at The Crown of Maredo. Later that night, the couple now staying in Rand and Min's room are killed by Slayer. 9/22 [The Two Rivers girls arrive at Egwene's camp.] 8/30 [The _gholam_ returns to Ebou Dar. It continues to kill through the following nights.] 9/28 27 Cadsuane's party, including Alanna and Verin, arrive in Far Madding. 9/23-24 Tylin and Suroth leave Ebou Dar on a tour of Altara. Mat begins planning escape with Thom and Juilin. Beslan suggests starting an uprising in the city. 9/28 Elayne meets with Egwene in the Emond's Field of _Tel'aran'rhiod_. 9/26 28 Egwene's army Travels from Murandy to Tar Valon. 8/30 Cadsuane and Alanna visit Rand and Min. He tells Alanna to return to Cairhien and take Merana, Rafela, Bera and Kiruna to deal with the rebels in Tear. 9/25 Merilille returns to Caemlyn with news of the Borderland rulers. Elayne decides to meet them. She convinces them to move south, towards Murandy. Returning to Caemlyn at dusk, Elayne hears news of four small armies approaching from the east. 9/26-27 29 [Alanna, obeying Rand's orders, Travels to Tear.] 9/25 30 31 [Jasfer Anan sails from Ebou Dar for Illian, taking his family with him.] 9/29 32 33 34 Juilin finally obtains an _a'dam_ for Mat. However, they find that Setalle Anan cannot use it to pretend to be a _sul'dam_ as they had planned. Bayle Domon takes Mat to Egeanin. She agrees to join him in escaping, and will provide three _sul'dam_. 9/28-29 35 At night, Egeanin brings Joline and the others to the Tarasin Palace. Mat frees the Windfinder _damane_ Estelle while Teslyn and Edesina are being released by Egeanin. He discovers Tylin has returned early. At her order, Mat ties her up, and leaves. In the stableyard anteroom, Mat is surprised by Tuon. With Noal's help, he subdues her. Egeanin reveals Tuon to be the Daughter of the Nine Moons. Mat decides to take Tuon and Selucia with them. 9/30-31 36 [In Ebou Dar, Riselle marries Banner-General Yamada.] 9/30 37 Rand agrees to accept Cadsuane as his advisor. An anonymous message leads them to where Gedwyn and Torval are staying. He and Lan find the two renegades dead, killed by Fain. They are attacked by Fain and Toram Riatin. Fain creates an illusion of Torval and Gedwyn, but Rand manages to wound Fain, who flees. (Lan kills Toram.) They attempt to escape, but are captured and imprisoned. 9/32-33 Cadsuane uses her and Nynaeve's Well _ter'angreal_ to intimidate the Counsels into releasing Rand and Lan. 9/34 38 Rand's party Travel to Shadar Logoth, where Rand and Nynaeve use the Choedan Kal to cleanse the Taint from _saidin_. The Forsaken attack, but Cadsuane's forces hold them off. Eben Hopwil realises that Aran'gar can channel _saidin_. Osan'gar is obliterated by Elza Penfell. The Taint and Shadar Logoth destroy each other; Moghedien is caught in the implosion. At the end of the battle, the female access key is destroyed, Eben and Kumira are dead, and Shadar Logoth is gone, leaving only a large crater. 9/35 MISCELLANEOUS NOTES The placing of the final chapters (32-35) in Far Madding and Shadar Logoth is not exactly specified in the text, but the table above shows them in the earliest position they could possibly be, since in [WH:32, A Portion of Wisdom, 592], Rand thinks: "More than a week had passed since he had killed Rochaid and Kisman had gotten away...". This means that Egwene's army has been at Tar Valon for at least 10 days when the cleansing of _saidin_ takes place. I suspect we'll find out in the next book that they've been rather busy in that time, and that's why no-one from Tar Valon showed up to investigate what was going on... If these last events are placed correctly, then WH covers a span of 20 days, ignoring the prologue. With the prologue included, that increases to 29 or so. So as far as pacing goes, WH is about midway between the extreme compression of ACOS and the more normal timescale of TPOD. As usual, Jordan's cutting back and forth between plot threads makes the timeline seem more complicated than it really is. As the table above shows, WH conforms to the usual sequential narrative principle that RJ has been using for the whole series, which is that within each book, the *endpoints* of the chapters should occur in chronological order no matter how much time is covered by each individual chapter. In other words, it's perfectly OK to go backwards in time when moving from chapter N to chapter N+1, provided that by the end of chapter N+1 the narrative has passed (or at least caught up with) the previous chapter. There's just one violation of this principle in WH (and it's only the fourth time this has happened in the entire series so far): the end of [WH:12, A Lily in Winter], with Elayne waking up in Caemlyn to find Rand gone, happens the day after chapters 13-17. In this case, storytelling considerations override strict chronology -- the little epilogue to Elayne's bonding and MPS session with Rand works far better here than as a flashback at the top of chapter 26, which is where it would be if strict chronological sequence were to be followed. PREDICTIONS FOR BOOK 10 So, now that we know where the various plot threads are in relation to each other, what can we expect in the next book? For a start, there are three threads that are lagging well behind the rest. They are: - The Black Ajah purge in the White Tower. Last seen on day 10, with Seaine and co. just uncovering their first BA. This is 18 days before Egwene's forces arrive at the Tower. We need to find out how successful they are before the battle begins. Here's an indication that they might in fact be doing quite well: at the Forsaken Coffee Hour in [WH:13, Wonderful News, 313], Demandred thinks how Mesaana has been "shy, of late", and Moridin notes that this is not the first Coffee Hour that Mesaana has missed. This is on day 21 -- maybe, just maybe, Mesaana is out of action by this time? - The Black Tower conflict between Taim and Logain, with Toveine and co. trying to stir the pot. Last seen on day 17. We can expect something big to happen here shortly -- the irritatingly vague last chapter of TPOD refers to a rumour that "It was the Black Tower that had been broken, by Aes Sedai designs and Aes Sedai power, and Asha'man hunted Asha'man across the nations" [TPOD:31, After, 590]. I expect that we'll find that, as with Egwene and her Aes Sedai, the reason neither Taim nor Logain showed up at the cleansing of _saidin_ is that they have other problems by this time. - The bloody Perrin thread (sigh). Last seen on day 20, with Perrin moving to follow the Shaido. Here's hoping Jordan skips over the journey and jumps straight to the big battle that's been shaping up for three books now. I'd expect most of the first third or so of book 10 to consist of these threads, although RJ does have the problem that none of the main characters, except Perrin, are involved in them. I doubt this will bother those who would like to see Logain and Taim finally clash in earnest, though... Next, we have Elayne in Caemlyn (about to come under siege), and Egwene's forces arriving at the Tower. These two threads are both currently sitting at day 28, ten days before the cleansing of _saidin_. I hope we see lots of Egwene in book 10, since she certainly got short-changed in WH. I have a feeling that the resolution of the White Tower conflict will be the climax of the next book. After languishing so far behind after TPOD, Mat has almost caught up to the lead, now -- which unfortunately means we probably won't see him and Tuon until, at best, the half-way point of book 10. With so much catching-up still to be done, I don't expect we'll see much forward movement in the timeline, and get answers to our new questions (e.g. Is the Taint *really* gone for good?) until quite late in book 10. On the bright side, though, I'm reasonably confident that the next book will end with most, if not all, of the currently outstanding plot business dealt with, for the first time since this series of overlapping books started with ACOS. A new phase of the series could then begin, as we finally head toward the Last Battle. As always, we'll have to RAFO. -- Steven Cooper | "Surprising what you can dig out of books Melbourne, Australia. | if you read long enough, isn't it?" sacooper@ozemail.com.au | -- Rand al'Thor From sacooper@ozemail.com.au Mon Nov 20 11:47:46 CST 2000 Article: 460341 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sjc1.nntp.concentric.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!newsfeeds.bigpond.com!not-for-mail From: Steven Cooper Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: Timeline for Winter's Heart (SPOILERS) (long) Reply-To: sacooper@ozemail.com.au Message-ID: References: <3A1892C6.2070702@home.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 164 Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 02:14:44 +1100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.54.55.61 X-Trace: newsfeeds.bigpond.com 974732693 203.54.55.61 (Tue, 21 Nov 2000 02:04:53 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 02:04:53 EST Organization: Telstra BigPond Internet Services (http://www.bigpond.com) Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:460341 SPOILERS On Mon, 20 Nov 2000 02:58:00 GMT, Joseph Slonimsky wrote: >Steven Cooper wrote: [snip timeline of the attack on Rand] >How sure are you of the above? I'v always assumed that the timeline went >something like: >Taim finds out that Elayne pulled down flags >Taim visits Rand >Rand gets Attacked >Taim visits Rand again >Taim visits Elayne about three days after the attak on Rand Thanks for your comments. This is the part of the timeline I found the most difficult to deal with. I've had a more careful look at it today, and discovered it *is* possible to move the attack on Rand back to day 13. This basically gives your scenario, except that it's two days after the attack that Taim answers Elayne's summons, not three. This is good, because it fits much better with Shalon's thought on p.454: "She had needed some explanation of why the Aes Sedai had held her for a week..." She was taken on the day of the attack, and released, on Cadsuane's orders (p.309) late on day 22. It also removes the question of why Taim waited for several days after Elayne's return before informing Rand. Good work! >Are you basing this on the comment in the prologue of Taim just getting >back from Cairhein? This might be considered suspect, as this info would >have been provided by Taim, and therefore could be a lie.. It was more the case that I mistakenly assumed that the attack had to occur on the day before Toveine's scene at the Black Tower where Kajima tells about the new traitors' names posted by Taim. But of course, it's quite reasonable that Taim would take a couple of days to try and track down Rand, or maybe wait and see whether Flinn, Narishma and Hopwil would return to the Black Tower, before deciding to go ahead and make them outcasts. It's just as well this works, because although the attack itself can be moved back to day 13, the aftermath at the Black Tower can only be moved back to day 16. This is because it *must* take place no earlier than the day after Taim meets with Elayne, and that scene is fixed at day 15 by multiple lines of evidence. For example: - Elayne describing Merilille (p.35): "...barely more than two weeks teaching the Windfinders had brought changes." The day Merilille started teaching is before the start of the timeline I posted, but it would be day -6. "Barely more than two weeks" implies 21 days, minimum. Therefore this Elayne POV scene is on day 15 or later. - After the fake assassination attempt, Birgitte tells Elayne that Mellar (Daved Hanlon) has been in the guard for four days (at least) (p. 227). He obviously joined up as part of the recruiting drive Elayne ordered in this prologue scene. This gives a minimum of five days between the prologue scene and the assassination attempt (which is on day 20). Therefore, this scene is on day 15 or earlier. To satisfy both of these constraints, Elayne's prologue scene must occur on day 15. (In fact, there's even more confirmatory evidence, which I won't bore you with, assuming your eyes haven't glazed over already...) Pushing this aftermath scene back also pushes Toveine's capture in TPOD chapter 26 back by a day, since Gabrelle's information on p.65 tells us there must be six days (at least) between the two points. >Also, introducing a point of speculation, why would Taim be carrying out >Rands orders in respect to Rands 'gift' if he knows he's going to order >Rands death the next day? This is also a good point, which I had not paid sufficient attention to. How irritating for Taim, to have to go back to obeying Rand's orders after almost getting free of him... So the updated timeline for this period now looks like this: Day Chapter 10 ?Alviarin returns to Tar Valon and forces Elaida to sign a decree recognising Rand and giving him the Tower's protection. 8/25 Using the Oath Rod, Seaine and Pevara unmask Zerah Dacan as one of the rebel AS spies. Their meeting is interrupted by four other AS, one of whom (Talene) refuses to swear on the Oath Rod. 8/26 Using the Chair of Remorse, Seaine and co. interrogate Talene. She reveals that she is Black Ajah, and thinks Elaida is too. 9/Pr Toveine Gazal's expedition is captured by Logain's men. Toveine is bonded by Logain. 8/26 Adeleas and Ispan are found murdered. 8/28 [Logain prevents the captured Aes Sedai at the Black Tower from taking revenge on Toveine.] 9/Pr 11 ?Rand returns to Cairhien. Merana and Rafela tell him of the Bargain made with the Sea Folk. The Maidens punish Rand for leaving them behind. 8/27 [The remainder of Toveine's expedition are captured and taken to the Black Tower.] 9/Pr 12 Elayne arrives in Caemlyn and claims the Lion Throne. 8/28 Daved Hanlon meets Shiaine, who is holding Falion (and another BA). Jaichim Carridin is killed for his failures. 8/28 13 At dawn, Taim brings news to Rand in Cairhien of Elayne's return to Caemlyn and her tearing down of Rand's banners. Five of the captured Aes Sedai swear fealty to Rand. Rand is attacked by Dashiva, with Gedwyn and Rochaid. Fedwin Morr loses his mind; Rand kills him. 8/29 [Rand and Min Travel to Rhuidean, where Rand lays a false trail by asking many questions about Shara.] 9/Pr [Elayne summons Mazrim Taim to Caemlyn.] 9/Pr 14 15 Elayne orders Birgitte to recruit mercenaries and Hunters of the Horn to increase the numbers of the Palace Guard. 9/Pr Taim arrives in answer to Elayne's summons, and agrees to her demand to inspect the Black Tower. 9/Pr Elayne and Aviendha are bonded as first-sisters. 9/Pr [Masema meets with the Seanchan.] 8/30 [Rand and Min Travel to Tear, where Rand lays another false trail by asking about Chachin.] 9/Pr 16 Early in the morning, Toveine sees Elayne's party inspecting the Black Tower. Kajima tells Logain of the new deserters' names posted by Taim after his return from Cairhien. 9/Pr ?Rand and Min return to the Academy in Cairhien so that Min can retrieve Herid Fel's books. Rand appoints Dobraine steward of Cairhien in his absence. He and Min Travel to the wilderness near Tar Valon, where he tells Min he intends to remove the Taint from _saidin_. 9/Pr [Daved Hanlon joins the Palace Guard in Caemlyn, using the alias of Doilin Mellar.] 9/10 This adds an extra day compared to previous timeline for Rand and Min to move around between the attack and the last scene of the Prologue, but that's OK. From Min's information on p.84 we know they first Travelled to Rhuidean and last Travelled to Tear, but their movements in between are not specified. [snip] >Basically I think that this means that the next book will be >a long one (hopefully in terms of pages, but mainly in terms of time >covered.) Hopefully 25 to 30 days. Heh. Before ACOS came along, the shortest book in terms of timescale was TSR, which covers a 'mere' 38 days or so. It's interesting to note that, even after nine books, the series is still spanning less total time than we have to put up with between WOT installments these days. -- Steven Cooper | "I'm entitled to my opinion!" Melbourne, Australia. | "It is your assumption that we are entitled sacooper@ozemail.com.au | to it as well that is irritating."