From stm4e@cs.virginia.edu Fri Nov 10 18:59:39 CST 2000 Article: 456268 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!logbridge.uoregon.edu!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU!not-for-mail From: "Sean T. McCulloch" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Thoughts about the last chapter (Spoiler) (kinda long) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 16:08:16 -0500 Organization: University of Virginia Lines: 86 Message-ID: <3A0C63C0.22451DF4@cs.virginia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: cobra.cs.virginia.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU 973890497 4401 128.143.137.16 (10 Nov 2000 21:08:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@virginia.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Nov 2000 21:08:17 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:456268 First the spoiler space.. Now.. Something's been budding me about the way the forsaken were acting in the last battle. Why would moridin send out every forsaken he could get his hands on out to fight a guy channeling so much of the OP he could disintegrate them without even blinking? And is Moridin thought (as was the case) that Rand wouldn't be able to defend himself, and it was a simple matter of walking up, kicking him, and taking the access keys, why use the forsaken at all? It's like Moridin called that meeting with everyone and said "Ok, guys, you've gotta stop enough of the OP to break the world again, and take down anyone who's guarding him, but I won't be there. And I won't bother to track down Messana and Semhirage. And don't plan ahead or work torgether or anything. Oh, and you can't channel the True Power." That last one really gets me. One fancloth-covered TP channeler could've taken down everyone, I think. Some of this could be attributed to the Forsaken being contemptuous of anyone Rand uses to stand guard, I suppose. But you'd think Moridin would order them to get together and form a ring of their own (that much power concentrated in one place might not even need to get that close to Rand to nuke him) Or, they could've gated in loyal darkfriend channelers to help out. Or even gated in piles of trollocs. Sure, they wouldn't last long, but it would add to the confusion, and tire out everyone. It just seems very fishy to me. The attack of the Shadow could've been done a lot more intelligently and effectively, and I think that Moridin could've enforced that if he wanted to. I think there's some sneaky reason that he didn't. The first thought that pops into my mind is that he decided that this would be a great opportunity to reduce the # of forsaken by a couple. Except that if that was the case, shouldn't he have demanded that Messana and Semi be there as well? Maybe they're both offscreen somewhere, Semi ready to heal whoever survives, and Mes squirming in the chair of remorse or something, but I didn't get that impression (the fact that they're at the battle, in fact, makes me think that the only time Moridin bothered to mention it was in that meeting with everyone. Makes me think it's a trap even more) The only other thing I can think of is that Moridin _wants_ the taint cleansed for some reason, and had to make at least a half-hearted showing so the DO wouldn't get mad at him. Why would he want that? no clue, unless he's worried that Rand is going crazy ahead of schedule and needs him to stay sane until the last battle. Of course, I might be wrong, and this could all be the forsaken being really arrogant, but I don't think so. They've been pretty much smacked around since they woke up, and they seemed genuinely scared when they found out about the Choedan Kal. Sean -- -------------------------------------------------------------------- Sean McCulloch stm4e@cs.virginia.edu University of Virginia http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~stm4e -------------------------------------------------------------------- "The ability to speak does not make you intelligent" -Qui-Gon Jinn, "The Phantom Menace" From dougstan@interlog.com Fri Nov 10 18:59:43 CST 2000 Article: 456295 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!news-out.digex.net.MISMATCH!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail From: Doug Stanley Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: Thoughts about the last chapter (Spoiler) (kinda long) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 22:12:54 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 84 Message-ID: <8uhrt0$oaa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <3A0C63C0.22451DF4@cs.virginia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.47.92.200 X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Nov 10 22:12:54 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows NT 4.0) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x63.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 209.47.92.200 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDdougstan Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:456295 In article <3A0C63C0.22451DF4@cs.virginia.edu>, "Sean T. McCulloch" wrote: > First the spoiler space.. > > Now.. > Something's been budding me about the way the forsaken were acting in > the last battle. Why would moridin send out every forsaken he could get > his hands on out to fight a guy channeling so much of the OP he could > disintegrate them without even blinking? And is Moridin thought (as was > the case) that Rand wouldn't be able to defend himself, and it was a > simple matter of walking up, kicking him, and taking the access keys, > why use the forsaken at all? It's like Moridin called that meeting with > everyone and said "Ok, guys, you've gotta stop enough of the OP to break > the world again, and take down anyone who's guarding him, but I won't be > there. And I won't bother to track down Messana and Semhirage. And > don't plan ahead or work torgether or anything. Oh, and you can't > channel the True Power." > > That last one really gets me. One fancloth-covered TP channeler > could've taken down everyone, I think. Well, Moridin is the only one we know who knows how to achieve that perfect invisibility using fancloth. (And the one time he did use it his thoughts suggest that it is not a commonly known skill) As for Moridin himself not attacking Rand, in the prologue of TPoD he thinks about the disastrous result the last time he tried to confront Rand directly and concludes that his place is behind the scenes manipulating everyone. Even if one of the other Forsaken was given permission to use the TP, most of them are reluctant to use it even when they are allowed to. Also the fancloth trick may require time to prepare, (ie. creating and donning a full-body suit of it), even if any other Forsaken does know how this is done. > > Some of this could be attributed to the Forsaken being contemptuous of > anyone Rand uses to stand guard, I suppose. I think this was a big factor. Rand's forces proved to be *far* stronger and more competant than expected. They also had a lot of unforseen useful devices (ie. Callandor, power-sensing ter'angreal, weave-destroying ter'angreal,etc.) I mean sheesh a bunch of Asha'man and Aes Sedai basically defeated a half dozen Forsaken at once! Who would have believe they could do that? > But you'd think Moridin > would order them to get together and form a ring of their own (that much > power concentrated in one place might not even need to get that close to > Rand to nuke him) Or, they could've gated in loyal darkfriend > channelers to help out. Or even gated in piles of trollocs. Sure, they > wouldn't last long, but it would add to the confusion, and tire out > everyone. Forming one circle would have been quite stupid, even if they were willing to do so. It's doubtful they could withstand an attack from Callandor even with a circle, and with Rand's forces broken up into several widely spaced groups, they would face multiple simultaneous attacks from different directions. The only defense really is to dodge such attacks, by running or gating, which is hardly feasible while linked. I doubt that gating in trollocs/darkfriends would make much difference, and it would delay their arrival at the scene as they fetch and assemble whatever forces to gate it. Since they don't know how long it'll take Rand to cleanse saidin they can't afford to waste any time getting there. A big problem they had was that they didn't know when/where Rand would make his move making it difficult to plan a precise assault. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. From Ozzyptitsarack@worldnet.att.net Sat Nov 11 00:49:04 CST 2000 Article: 456351 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!newsfeed.stanford.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.19!wnmasters2!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail From: "Oleg Ozerov" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan References: <8udalv$hs$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <55ck0t037c2bhr4q80ruu4al7p1ujjg3v2@4ax.com> Subject: Re: WH: Long Review (spoilers) Lines: 39 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 01:05:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.75.67.226 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 973904719 12.75.67.226 (Sat, 11 Nov 2000 01:05:19 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 01:05:19 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:456351 John S. Novak, III wrote in message ... >On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 05:47:24 GMT, John Dilick wrote: > >>>>[Spoilers. Go south if you want to see them] >It looked to me as though the Taint were being deposited in Shadar >Logoth sort of physically, not unlike the pure saidin was deposited >physically into the Eye of the World. But then it disappeared, and >the only reason I can think of for that is some interaction with >Shadar Logoth. Just like Rand's two wounds, sitting on top of each >other, were fighting each other. > >The interesting question is, _could_ Rand's two wounds, neither of >which were healed after the episode, become a problem later on? I >tend to doubt it, personally. I expect that Nynaeve and/or Damer will >be able to Heal them, now. Damer said that he expected the wounds to change and they didn't. However, I took it as a reference to that Ishy's present was of TP, not saidin. Hence, could care less. O. From drothgery@myrealbox.com Sun Nov 12 18:47:27 CST 2000 Article: 457284 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone-0.nyroc.rr.com!typhoon.nyroc.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail From: David A. Rothgery Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: WH: Bad Guy Roundup (SPOILERS) Message-ID: References: Organization: Rothgery Software X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.30 Lines: 75 Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 23:29:11 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.24.68.65 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rochester.rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.nyroc.rr.com 974071751 66.24.68.65 (Sun, 12 Nov 2000 18:29:11 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 18:29:11 EST Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:457284 P. Korda wrote: > First in a series of WH commentary. Yeah, I know there is a lost of > that already going on, but I'm going to be socially irresponsible and > start another thread, in the hope that people will post their ideas in > MY threads, so I can find them easily. > > GENERAL: > > Well, it seems like a lot of our general assumptions were wrong: > GRAENDAL: > > Graendal's plan seems to be to avoid making waves, and let the other > Forsaken get themselves killed. For somebody as powerful as she supposedly > is, she really doesn't do much. Of course, she could be executing some > brilliant strategy off-screen, and will end up Nae'blis after all. Unfortunately, it looks like avoiding making waves is a far more intelligent strategy than the ones adopted by most of the other Forsaken. > ISHAMAEL/MORIDIN: > > I know some people will STILL try to deny that Ishamael is Moridin, but > really. Give it up, people. The other Forsaken know he's Ishamael. You > should, too. > > But, what was up with sending all the Chosen to get their asses kicked at > Shadar Logoth? Is he still underestimating Rand, at this point in the > game? My guess is that he severely underestimated Cadsuane and co., which is understandable. The Forsaken seem to expect Rand to be a badass, and Moggy, at least, expects Nynaeve to be a badass; they just don't expect trouble from anyone else. But in this case, Moridin's not showing too much stupidity. o He had no reason to expect Aes Sedai and Asha'man to be working together closely, let alone linking with each other. o It's unlikely Moridin knew anything about Alivia. o Nynaeve and Cadsuane's ter'angreal collections are similarly unknown to Moridin. o How could Moridin have anticipated that Rand would let someone else use Callandor? > DEMANDRED: > > Is he or isn't he? Finally, in WH, we get something to contradict the mass > of hints that Demandred is Taim. > > The second evidence is from the very end. Demandred is running through the > woods near Shadar Logoth, and runs across Flinn's group. He does not > recognise Flinn as one of the Asha'man from Rand's personal entourage. One > would expect Taim to recognise _those_ AM, although since there are about > 500 Asha'man, I wouldn't expect every one of them to be immediately > recognisable to the mighty M'Hael. Flinn was the first guy that Taim tested at the Black Tower, so Taim was working closely with him when there were only a handful of men there. At Rand's second visit there, Taim says he'll leave Flinn in charge while he goes out recruiting, because he's the farthest along. Flinn's the uber-healer of the Asha'man. Rand chose Flinn to be in his entourage. This guy sticks out like a sore thumb, and ought to be the first person who comes to mind when Taim sees an old Asha'man. At the very least, Taim would think that an old Asha'man protecting Rand is _probably_ Flinn. -- Dave Rothgery Picking nits since 1976 drothgery@myrealbox.com http://drothgery.editthispage.com From Ozzyptitsarack@worldnet.att.net Sun Nov 12 19:16:17 CST 2000 Article: 457170 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!newsfeed.stanford.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.19!wnmasters2!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail From: "Oleg Ozerov" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan References: Subject: Re: Not very obvious conclusions (Spoilers, long) Lines: 62 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 19:42:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.75.84.166 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 974058124 12.75.84.166 (Sun, 12 Nov 2000 19:42:04 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 19:42:04 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:457170 David Chapman wrote in message ... >"Oleg Ozerov" wrote in message >news:dDlP5.7811$mq1.531661@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... >> >> David Chapman wrote in message ... >> >"Oleg Ozerov" wrote in message >> >news:pTfP5.26913$xJ4.1442925@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... >> >> Some Spoiler Space >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Some More >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> That's it. >> >> >> *The Cleansing aka The Penultimate Battle. >> is how could Rand dismiss the danger from the Forsaken so, (in the >> Prologue). He could have been in trouble if not for the guards. > >Well, that's why he brought them, isn't it? Another thing. The Shadow didn't use a gholam in the attack on Rand. Gholam would have slaughtered everybody there before they knew what was happening. Conclusion: either Moridin really doesn't care about what happened there, or he doesn't have an access to a gholam. Which mkes the gholam we kinow about still in Sammael's control. >> How many Sammael look-alikes have we seen? > >None, SFAICR. I can't recall a single other man of >slightly-below-average height with a nasty facial scar. We have seen alot of men with scars, and height wasn't always mentioned. O. From ejlesch@students.wisc.edu Sun Nov 12 19:16:30 CST 2000 Article: 457312 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail From: Eric Lesch Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: Not very obvious conclusions (Spoilers, long) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 18:28:39 -0600 Lines: 59 Message-ID: <3A0F35B7.92A87D9A@students.wisc.edu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: 5hY4IUWUcjuCqM/RyQY9jD974RjX9ydHxxjHIrbopzk= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Nov 2000 00:29:02 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Sender: "Eric Lesch" <@smtp.students.wisc.edu> (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-gatewaynet (Win95; U) Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:457312 Oleg Ozerov wrote: > > David Chapman wrote in message ... > >"Oleg Ozerov" wrote in message > >news:dDlP5.7811$mq1.531661@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > >> > >> David Chapman wrote in message ... > >> >"Oleg Ozerov" wrote in message > >> >news:pTfP5.26913$xJ4.1442925@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > >> >> Some Spoiler Space > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Some More > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> That's it. > >> > >> >> *The Cleansing aka The Penultimate Battle. > >> is how could Rand dismiss the danger from the Forsaken so, (in the > >> Prologue). He could have been in trouble if not for the guards. > > > >Well, that's why he brought them, isn't it? > > Another thing. The Shadow didn't use a gholam in the attack on Rand. Gholam > would have slaughtered everybody there before they knew what was happening. > Conclusion: either Moridin really doesn't care about what happened there, or > he doesn't have an access to a gholam. Which mkes the gholam we kinow about > still in Sammael's control. > Well, assuming that a gholam's innate abilities prevent it from being able to use a gateway, there would have been no way for it to get there in time. Eric Lesch From steelblaidd@my-deja.com Sun Nov 12 22:14:46 CST 2000 Article: 456695 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!newsfeed.stanford.edu!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail From: steelblaidd@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: Let's Review, Shall We? (Uber-Spoilers) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 19:47:31 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 44 Message-ID: <8uk7oh$eqc$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8uhm64$j8j$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.118.173.24 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Nov 11 19:47:31 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows 98) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x57.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 129.118.173.24 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDsteelblaidd Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:456695 In article , Chris Kollmann wrote: > Quoth Leigh Butler : > Spoilers > That and the amazing number of Forsaken class channelers that seem to > have appeared are the two things that stand out the most, now that I've > finished the book. > Its probably about the number that should exist statisticly, thay just wenrn't activly looking for them until recently. > > Okay, last comment, I promise. Chapter 35, "With the Choedan Kal". > > > > That was some crazy shit. > > > > Dude. I'll have to reread that, but now I predict we will spend the next > > two years arguing over who of the bad guys did and did not survive and > > why. And hey, while we're at it, did you notice that only the Forsaken > > who were at the meeting earlier showed, with the notable exception of > > Moridin? No Semi, no Mesaana, no Sammael (who you know goddamn good and > > well is not dead). It's not like they couldn't have noticed...right? > > And no Asha'men, which is really rather surprising. I'd expect them to > investigate, given the amount of power being used not that far from > them. Would yopu realy wnat to drop in on a place whre there throwing around more fire power than you and every one you know can get together. Going to investigate probably had all the apeal of siting in Hiroshima to observe the effects of the bomb as its droped. >From their POVs I don't think any of the Forsaken would have been there if they hadent had direct orders; excepting perhapes Cyndine/Lanfear. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. From stm4e@cs.virginia.edu Sun Nov 12 22:19:59 CST 2000 Article: 456268 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!logbridge.uoregon.edu!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU!not-for-mail From: "Sean T. McCulloch" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Thoughts about the last chapter (Spoiler) (kinda long) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 16:08:16 -0500 Organization: University of Virginia Lines: 86 Message-ID: <3A0C63C0.22451DF4@cs.virginia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: cobra.cs.virginia.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU 973890497 4401 128.143.137.16 (10 Nov 2000 21:08:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@virginia.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Nov 2000 21:08:17 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:456268 First the spoiler space.. Now.. Something's been budding me about the way the forsaken were acting in the last battle. Why would moridin send out every forsaken he could get his hands on out to fight a guy channeling so much of the OP he could disintegrate them without even blinking? And is Moridin thought (as was the case) that Rand wouldn't be able to defend himself, and it was a simple matter of walking up, kicking him, and taking the access keys, why use the forsaken at all? It's like Moridin called that meeting with everyone and said "Ok, guys, you've gotta stop enough of the OP to break the world again, and take down anyone who's guarding him, but I won't be there. And I won't bother to track down Messana and Semhirage. And don't plan ahead or work torgether or anything. Oh, and you can't channel the True Power." That last one really gets me. One fancloth-covered TP channeler could've taken down everyone, I think. Some of this could be attributed to the Forsaken being contemptuous of anyone Rand uses to stand guard, I suppose. But you'd think Moridin would order them to get together and form a ring of their own (that much power concentrated in one place might not even need to get that close to Rand to nuke him) Or, they could've gated in loyal darkfriend channelers to help out. Or even gated in piles of trollocs. Sure, they wouldn't last long, but it would add to the confusion, and tire out everyone. It just seems very fishy to me. The attack of the Shadow could've been done a lot more intelligently and effectively, and I think that Moridin could've enforced that if he wanted to. I think there's some sneaky reason that he didn't. The first thought that pops into my mind is that he decided that this would be a great opportunity to reduce the # of forsaken by a couple. Except that if that was the case, shouldn't he have demanded that Messana and Semi be there as well? Maybe they're both offscreen somewhere, Semi ready to heal whoever survives, and Mes squirming in the chair of remorse or something, but I didn't get that impression (the fact that they're at the battle, in fact, makes me think that the only time Moridin bothered to mention it was in that meeting with everyone. Makes me think it's a trap even more) The only other thing I can think of is that Moridin _wants_ the taint cleansed for some reason, and had to make at least a half-hearted showing so the DO wouldn't get mad at him. Why would he want that? no clue, unless he's worried that Rand is going crazy ahead of schedule and needs him to stay sane until the last battle. Of course, I might be wrong, and this could all be the forsaken being really arrogant, but I don't think so. They've been pretty much smacked around since they woke up, and they seemed genuinely scared when they found out about the Choedan Kal. Sean -- -------------------------------------------------------------------- Sean McCulloch stm4e@cs.virginia.edu University of Virginia http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~stm4e -------------------------------------------------------------------- "The ability to speak does not make you intelligent" -Qui-Gon Jinn, "The Phantom Menace" From dougstan@interlog.com Sun Nov 12 22:21:42 CST 2000 Article: 456295 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!news-out.digex.net.MISMATCH!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail From: Doug Stanley Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: Thoughts about the last chapter (Spoiler) (kinda long) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 22:12:54 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 84 Message-ID: <8uhrt0$oaa$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <3A0C63C0.22451DF4@cs.virginia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.47.92.200 X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Nov 10 22:12:54 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows NT 4.0) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x63.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 209.47.92.200 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDdougstan Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:456295 In article <3A0C63C0.22451DF4@cs.virginia.edu>, "Sean T. McCulloch" wrote: > First the spoiler space.. > > Now.. > Something's been budding me about the way the forsaken were acting in > the last battle. Why would moridin send out every forsaken he could get > his hands on out to fight a guy channeling so much of the OP he could > disintegrate them without even blinking? And is Moridin thought (as was > the case) that Rand wouldn't be able to defend himself, and it was a > simple matter of walking up, kicking him, and taking the access keys, > why use the forsaken at all? It's like Moridin called that meeting with > everyone and said "Ok, guys, you've gotta stop enough of the OP to break > the world again, and take down anyone who's guarding him, but I won't be > there. And I won't bother to track down Messana and Semhirage. And > don't plan ahead or work torgether or anything. Oh, and you can't > channel the True Power." > > That last one really gets me. One fancloth-covered TP channeler > could've taken down everyone, I think. Well, Moridin is the only one we know who knows how to achieve that perfect invisibility using fancloth. (And the one time he did use it his thoughts suggest that it is not a commonly known skill) As for Moridin himself not attacking Rand, in the prologue of TPoD he thinks about the disastrous result the last time he tried to confront Rand directly and concludes that his place is behind the scenes manipulating everyone. Even if one of the other Forsaken was given permission to use the TP, most of them are reluctant to use it even when they are allowed to. Also the fancloth trick may require time to prepare, (ie. creating and donning a full-body suit of it), even if any other Forsaken does know how this is done. > > Some of this could be attributed to the Forsaken being contemptuous of > anyone Rand uses to stand guard, I suppose. I think this was a big factor. Rand's forces proved to be *far* stronger and more competant than expected. They also had a lot of unforseen useful devices (ie. Callandor, power-sensing ter'angreal, weave-destroying ter'angreal,etc.) I mean sheesh a bunch of Asha'man and Aes Sedai basically defeated a half dozen Forsaken at once! Who would have believe they could do that? > But you'd think Moridin > would order them to get together and form a ring of their own (that much > power concentrated in one place might not even need to get that close to > Rand to nuke him) Or, they could've gated in loyal darkfriend > channelers to help out. Or even gated in piles of trollocs. Sure, they > wouldn't last long, but it would add to the confusion, and tire out > everyone. Forming one circle would have been quite stupid, even if they were willing to do so. It's doubtful they could withstand an attack from Callandor even with a circle, and with Rand's forces broken up into several widely spaced groups, they would face multiple simultaneous attacks from different directions. The only defense really is to dodge such attacks, by running or gating, which is hardly feasible while linked. I doubt that gating in trollocs/darkfriends would make much difference, and it would delay their arrival at the scene as they fetch and assemble whatever forces to gate it. Since they don't know how long it'll take Rand to cleanse saidin they can't afford to waste any time getting there. A big problem they had was that they didn't know when/where Rand would make his move making it difficult to plan a precise assault. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. From wassermb@law.georgetown.edu Sun Nov 12 22:59:50 CST 2000 Article: 457418 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!law4207.law4.georgetown.EDU!not-for-mail From: wassermb@law.georgetown.edu (Bryon T Wasserman) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: Thoughts about the last chapter (Spoiler) (kinda long) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 07:51:56 GMT Lines: 46 Message-ID: <3a0f9af3.10016962@News.CIS.DFN.DE> References: <3A0C63C0.22451DF4@cs.virginia.edu> <3q2P5.7217$%%1.458673@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: law4207.law4.georgetown.edu (141.161.178.207) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 974090694 2503418 141.161.178.207 (16 [60728]) X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:457418 On Mon, 13 Nov 2000 04:29:40 GMT, kor2@midway.uchicago.edu (P. Korda) wrote: = >Oh, I dunno, maybe have a PLAN? > >The way the attack was executed, it was clear that they didn't even do >a minimal amount of reconnaisance. They just "felt" the humongous >amounts of Power being channelled, and went towards it. It was worse than that. Even on an individual level, they act like idiots. Compared to Rahvin's behavior in FoH or Sammael's behavior in CoS, they just looked pathetic. Why was it necessary for Arangar to announce herself to Eben first? Couldn't they have used inverted invisibility weaves? >Clearly, they weren't expecting mixed-gender Circles, which are, >apparently, immensely powerful. However, some proper planning could >have increased their chances immensely. I'm also not clear on why they went in alone. Why not gate in an army of Trollocs on the north side and approach from the south? Why waste Torval, Rochaid, Kinsman, and Gedwyn in a city where channeling doesn't work when you can use them in a situation where their powers would be assets. > >Maybe Moridin DID consider this outing to be a learning exercise. If >the Forsaken don't realize that they'd better be willing to cooperate, >to the point of linking together, they're doomed. (Granted, they are >doomed, anyway, but the doom will come a lot faster if they don't work >together.) I've heard people say this, but it doesn't strike me as credible. This is REALLY important. Moridin was worried that the DO would get bent out of shape about the weather being reversed and this a hell of a lot more important. Rand was aiming to reverse the DO's grand revenge against the people that trapped him in the bore. This seems like a situation where you'd want to go all out. Bryon Wasserman wassermb@law.georgetown.edu From slonimsky4938@home.com Sun Nov 12 23:02:15 CST 2000 Article: 456444 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news2.rdc1.on.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A0CC312.30D1DB84@home.com> From: Joseph Slonimsky X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: At the end of Winters Heart (Spoilers) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 88 Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 03:56:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.157.73.197 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news2.rdc1.on.home.com 973915016 24.157.73.197 (Fri, 10 Nov 2000 19:56:56 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 19:56:56 PST Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:456444 Read on for an analysis of the battle at Shadar Logoth. Spoiler Space . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Alright, a few (Spoiler Filled) observations about the battle.. >From Demandreds PoV: "The web had been reversed, for caution's sake, but so had the first," Demandred is reffering to the first and second gateways he wove. Apparently it is possible to weave an inverted gateway right of the bat... So why wasn't Rahvin doing this in FoH? "Demandred found himself frantically fending off a net of saidin that struck his warding much harder than it should have, as hard as his own spinning would have." This is refferring to Flinns attack while he was linked to Sarene and Corele. But in previous books it was said that a man and woman linking would have something like 10 times the stength that two women linking would have.. Even taking into account Demandreds Forsaken class stength, he should have been overpowered, or at least not compared the attack to his stength on an equal basis.. >From Verins PoV: "...a woman walking through the forest in gems and a gown that shifted through every color" Verin (drawing on the power of a circle including her, one other Aes Sedai and the sea folk windfinder) attempts to shield the Forsaken (who must be Greandal from the description). "She wove the shield and watched aghast as it rebounded. The woman was already embracing saidar, though no light shone around her, and she was immensely strong!" And later Verin can't see the weaves of the counter-attack. This is not Halima. Halima is in the next paragraph fighting Eban's circle. So if this is not Halima, it must be Greandal, and that means there is not only a way to disguise that fact that you have the ability to channel, you can actually hold it without someone seeing/sensing it and then attack with inverted weaves..! >From Cadsuanes PoV: Alivia stares in wonder at her healed arm. Could this mean that the Seanchan don't have healing? Finally as an overall commentary of the Battle, only Osan'gar every seems to try and use Balefire. In the cases of Greandal and Cyndane, they could have both used balefire to kill their opponents. I wonder why this didn't? Actually, I just don't understand why Greandal didn't win her battle. She was fighting 2 average AS, and an above average Windfinder. Verin was probably using her weak angreal as well. Yet Greandal has her own Angreal, and since they magnify power, her starting base strength ought to have made her more powerful in the end over Verins circle. So, not only did Greandal have a power advantage, she was also using inverted webs, which really freaked Verin out. Next, we know from later, that Greandal did succeed in killing the other AS in Verins circle. With only 2 left Greandal should have been able to finish them off. Also, I think the Cyndane/Alivia battle provides the best example of a AoLer vs. a Modern. It was one against one, both have very close to the same base ability, yet Alivia, someone trained almost purely in war with a fairly powerful angreal, and a really powerful defensive ter'angreal has her arm broken and seared, while only driving Cydane off.. -Krax From Ozzyptitsarack@worldnet.att.net Sun Nov 12 23:47:13 CST 2000 Article: 457441 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmasters2!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail From: "Oleg Ozerov" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan References: <3A0C63C0.22451DF4@cs.virginia.edu> <3q2P5.7217$%%1.458673@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Thoughts about the last chapter (Spoiler) (kinda long) Lines: 82 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 05:27:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.75.67.225 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 974093234 12.75.67.225 (Mon, 13 Nov 2000 05:27:14 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 05:27:14 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:457441 P. Korda wrote in message ... >In article <3q2P5.7217$%%1.458673@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, >Oleg Ozerov wrote: >> >>Sean T. McCulloch wrote in message <3A0C63C0.22451DF4@cs.virginia.edu>... >>>First the spoiler space.. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>[The Forsaken childish attack] > >>My thoughts on it parallel yours. Moridin may be half-mad, but he isn't >>stupid. He must've known that the attack would be futile and that the >>Forsaken will suffer casualties. They were certainly afraid. But, thinking >>more on it, Moridin is Nae'blis. He can put al them damn Chosen under the >>wing with mindtraps or just off them, right? Yet he goes the long way. I get >>the impression it is not GL's idea, but Moridin's own. >> >>OTOH, WTF else could they do? > >Oh, I dunno, maybe have a PLAN? > >The way the attack was executed, it was clear that they didn't even do >a minimal amount of reconnaisance. They just "felt" the humongous >amounts of Power being channelled, and went towards it. That's what Moridin told them to do, didn't he? AFAIK, they didn't know where Rand was going to do his deed, therefore they could not do reconaissance beforehand. They _could_ gather an army of BA and Black Asha'man and wait somewhere and then Travel to the spot. >Clearly, they weren't expecting mixed-gender Circles, which are, >apparently, immensely powerful. However, some proper planning could >have increased their chances immensely. It was dumb of them not to expect organized opposition. Clearly they know about the AS sworn to Rand and they might even know about who was with him at FM. It was also dumb of them to not allow for the possibility of the defense having angreal, Callandor for one. It _was_ used in Illian. Granted, Rand did not _initially_ plan to have security support, but that was just dumb of him. >Maybe Moridin DID consider this outing to be a learning exercise. If >the Forsaken don't realize that they'd better be willing to cooperate, >to the point of linking together, they're doomed. (Granted, they are >doomed, anyway, but the doom will come a lot faster if they don't work >together.) Maybe this. Or maybe he wanted some of them to die. Or maybe he wanted to see if someone of them didn't mind saidin cleansed. BTW, I am convinced that either SH or Moridin were watching the whole operation. O. From tripleflick@hotmail.com Tue Nov 14 22:40:31 CST 2000 Article: 458367 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Message-ID: <3A11D8ED.DABF6B2B@hotmail.com> Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 19:29:33 -0500 From: Greg McConnell Reply-To: tripleflick@hotmail.com X-Sender: "Greg McConnell" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en]C-gatewaynet (Win98; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: Cadsuane (WH Spoilers) References: <8urnnm$10h$1@news2.isis.unc.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.97.116.26 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.97.116.26 X-Trace: 14 Nov 2000 19:23:44 -0500, 206.97.116.26 Lines: 44 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.98.63.6 Path: uchinews!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!europa.netcrusader.net!207.114.4.11!nntp.abs.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.cybertours.com!206.97.116.26 Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:458367 Navin Vembar wrote: > > Spoiler space > (3) That they've traded taints -- Shadar Logoth for Shayol Ghul. I'm a > bit unclear as to exactly how Rand used SL for his cleansing. Was it a > "sealing away" of the taint with SL's evil, a la his own wounds or did he > actually force a mutual act of destruction? (SL being a big hole in the > ground might indicate the second, but....) If he merely sealed it away, > then wouldn't SL's evil or the taint be touching saidar, since that was > what he was using as a conduit? Here's my take on what happened, after re-reading the chapter a few times: Saidin and Saider fight against each other like the North or South of two magnets together. Of course, in this case, it's the opposites that fight each other. This is magic, so it's ok to have little weird things happen like that. The taint on the Dark One also has a similar opposite: The Taint on Shadar Logoth, and they also tend to work against each other. What Rand does is make this "tube" of Saidar that connects to Shadar Logoth and seals it off too. Then he puts Saidin into this tube. They repel each other and Saidin is forced through the tube and into Shadar Logoth, its only outlet. Unfortunately for the Dark One, this is where the two taints meet up with each other, and the same thing happens, except that these taints have nowhere to go, so they just clash and wear each other out and wind up destroying one another. No more taint.