From jsn@concentric.net Mon Jun 26 16:53:10 CDT 2000 Article: 424165 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed.concentric.net!global-news-master From: jsn@news.greennet.net (John S. Novak, III) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Subject: Re: Did Moiraine Kill Asmodean? Date: 21 Jun 2000 20:51:32 EDT Organization: Cynics Central Lines: 75 Message-ID: References: Reply-To: jsn@concentric.net NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.173.190.222 X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.3 UNIX) Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:424165 On Wed, 21 Jun 2000 06:18:49 GMT, Pat Good wrote: >> Yes, we're all Very Mean People, because we actually point out when >> one's logic is less than stellar. I read the post, and was >> underwhelmed. Happily, others have already commented to that effect, >> and in detail, meaning I don't need to do so. >His logic was not flawed in any way, and no one refuted it, they just put up >their own opinion as fact and said he was wrong. On the contrary, his arguments were refuted on several points, by several people. I don't think anyone put all the points in one post, but the points have been made. Notably, there is no good reason to believe that Moiraine would not only manage to magically appear in Caemlyn at just the right time and place, but that immediately following her murder of Asmodean, she would thenceforth disappear entirely forsaking her entire life's purpose-- keeping the Dragon Reborn safe and on track for the Last Battle. Where the hell was she when Rand was kidnapped in LoC? Where the hell was she when the Maidens beat up on him? During the campaign against the Seanchan? During the Black Tower's attack? During his jaunt down to the rebellious nobles? During his negotiations with the Sea Folk? With either of the Tower embassies? If one wants to posit that Moiraine killed Asmodean and then disappeared for three more books, one might want to explain _why_ she's been acting completely out of character for those three books. One might also want to explain how she managed to get free of Finnland, since all the imagery we have suggests that she will need to be _rescued_ from that place-- see also, images of Thom pulling Moiraine's forehead stone out of ashes, etc. Further, as mentioned, one has to explain why she chose that moment, and not a moment before, to kill Asmodean. It is clear from her letter that she knew Jasin Natael was Asmodean. Why would she go out of her way to tell Rand that she knew about it, tell Rand that she understood the action, and then kill him? Would it not have been better to keep the whole thing secret from Rand and kill him anyway? Finally, there is the small matter of the Oaths. Be'lal's death is not an answer to this question, as it is clear from the text that Moiraine _was_ acting in the defense of her life. She did not channel against him until he raised a hand to her, in confrontation-- and given the skill and power of a Forsaken, use of the One Power against him was clearly justified. Not so, Asmodean. Note that even with Lanfear, Moiraine seemed to need to get Lanfear's attention first (by tackling her) before she could use the One Power against her. >And my support of him has >received much wailing and nashing of teeth, as does any post who pushes for >more of an open minded aproach for first time posters. I think the news >group misses out on many good, valid opinions when a newer person is jumped >on in this manner. No one is jumping on the new poster, unless by that you mean failing to agree with him in all cases, and pointing out the serious flaws in his argument which need to be addressed People probably will jump over you, though, for trying to begin another tired episode of "You people are mean to Newbies!" > You cannot attack someone's opinion of coming events in >a FICTION novel by quoting "no, she's dead" when the author has free reign >to re-instate anyone he chooses. Even would Jordan actually do this, it would not make the theory any better at this point. It would just make Jordan a worse writer. -- John S. Novak, III jsn@concentric.net A source of pride on the Internet From d_gillmore@hotmail.com Mon Jun 26 16:53:33 CDT 2000 Article: 424196 of rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan Path: uchinews!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Reply-To: "Drew Gillmore" From: "Drew Gillmore" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan References: Subject: Re: Did Moiraine Kill Asmodean? Lines: 181 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 03:39:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.245.228.95 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 961645198 209.245.228.95 (Wed, 21 Jun 2000 20:39:58 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 20:39:58 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Xref: uchinews rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan:424196 "i-wright" wrote: : I discovered the Wheel of Time series in March, finished it in May, and : discovered the FAQ and this newsgroup about three weeks ago. And I also : have a theory about who killed Asmodean that is not listed in the FAQ. I : just hope that this idea hasn't been beaten to death on this newsgroup : before I discovered it. Kindly tell me if it has. It actually has, but not thoroughly. I know I've personally argued against it at one point or another. : Did Moiraine kill Asmodean? Like most of you, I really don't believe : she is dead. Reading the FAQ, it sounds like the consensus is that : either a Forsaken, or a darkfriend of some sort killed Asmodean. Barring : that, it was a crime of opportunity. But why couldn't a "good guy" go : after a forsaken? Especially someone, like Moiraine, who already has a : record of doing away with the forsaken? She knew who he was, and, as she : was also traveling in Rand's entourage, had plenty of interaction with : him. She is certainly no friend of the Forsaken. For one, most of the good guys know Asmodean as the Dragon Reborn's Gleeman. The one person that we can, for certain*, say knew who Asmodean was is Moiraine. And we have strong reason to believe that she would not do it. *I add this simply because RJ told someone somewhere that we can figure out who killed Asmodean. If we don't know that someone figured out that Jasin Natael was Asmodean, or that they knew, then logically we can't suspect them. : If we use the eight requirements of whoever killed Asmodean from the FAQ : (http://hugin.imat.com/jordan/1_dark/1.1_forsaken1/1.1.7_asmo.html), : we see: : : 1. MEANS. Obviously, Moiraine can channel. She has already taken down : Be'lal with balefire, so there is a precedent. This would eliminate the : body as well. Anyone who could channel stronger than Asmodean, which is about every other channeler, had the Means, so yes, Moiraine qualifies for this category. : 2. MOTIVE. Those fighting against the DO and his minions have motive : enough to kill the Forsaken. Notice the anguish that Rand feels in LOC : when he fears someone may discover he had had a "tamed" forsaken in his : entourage who then, Rand believes, escaped. Egwene, Nynaeve, Elayne, : Siuane, and Leane all fear that Moghedien would be discovered; they now : fear what will happen if word gets out they had a forsaken with them, but : let her escape instead of trying and executing her. Those who are not : darkfriends have ample motive to kill the forsaken. Moiraine certainly : falls in this camp. : Why Kill Asmodean now? Why not before, since she obviously knew that : Jasin Natael was Asmodean? In her letter to Rand, we read "Lastly, : be wary of Master Jasin Natael. I cannot approve wholly, but I : understand. Perhaps it _was_ the only way. Yet be careful of him. He : is the same man now that he always was. Remember that always." (TFoH, p. : 901 paperback, emphasis added). The past tense _was_ perhaps implies : that Asmodean's usefulness was over, and that he is still a dangerous : man. To protect Rand, after he had learned all he could from Asmodean, : Moiraine could have killed Asmo. Very thin. Lots of speculation. If she had wanted Asmodean killed, she could have arranged it the night before they went to the docks. Why wait until after she was pretty sure that she was going to die? Which sounds more like Moiraine's character: Killing a possible influence on Rand that once had connections to the Dark because she knew that she might possibly no longer be there to balance that influence, or leaving him alive even though it might mean that he became the only influence on Rand? I think it is highly likely that if Moiraine decided that Asmodean was any sort of threat that Rand might succumb to, that she would have made sure to have him removed _before_ she was gone. : 3. OPPORTUNITY. Weakest link here, but then again, none of us really : know what happened to Moiraine after she disappeared with Lanfear. Like : most of you, I am assuming she is not dead. Who knows how, or even : where, she will exit from the ter'angreal? She might have exited : somewhere near Caemlyn. Then again, she may have learned things while in : Finnland, including Traveling or skimming. She also has knowledge of : things, e.g., balefire, that most AS don't. So while it is a stretch, I : think she could have had or made the opportunity to kill him. Yes, she knew balefire. However, the fact that we don't _know_ that Moiraine was available at _that_ _moment_ _in_ _time_ in the series negates her altogether. Again, knowing that we can figure out who killed Asmodean with the information up through tFoH necessitates that there is _no_ speculation as to who killed him. Note that I don't say that we can figure out _how_ or _why_ he died. All we can possibly do is figure out _who_. : 4. RECOGNITION FACTOR. Moiraine was traveling in the same entourage as : Asmodean, so they would both recognize each other. He would know what : she had done with Lanfear, and she knows he is a forsaken (see her letter : in TFoH, pp. 899-901, paperback). He would also be surprised to see her : again, after witnessing her disappearance. He may also have heard the : stories about her killing Be'lal. Another weak link. Having travelled with Moiraine, why would he immediately fear her? He does not know that she knew who he was. : 5. DISPOSAL OF THE BODY. Balefire or channeling would neatly eliminate : the corpse. True. : 6. KNOWLEDGE OF ASMODEAN'S FATE. We have yet to hear from Moiraine after : pushing Lanfear throught the ter'angreal. So Moiraine's POV has not : disabused me of the idea. The lack of knowledge itself is a key. The fact that we haven't had a POV >from Moiraine in four books points nicelt to the fact that she's _not_ _around_. : 7. SECRECY. If Moiraine has come back, she may be doing things "behind : the scenes" so Rand won't feel manipulated. For example, she could have : killed Asmodean when he had outlived his usefulness. If she has been : back, it is obviously a secret. She tells Rand, "You must dance free, : and even the best intentioned of my sisters may well try to guide your : steps as I once did" (TFoH, p. 901 paperback). Doing things in secret : would let Rand "dance free," while she smoothes out the path as she can. : Her letter to Rand at the end of TFoH hints that Moiraine doesn't "know : what happens in the world after, except perhaps for _one small thing_ : which does not concern you (TFOH, p. 900, paperback). What is this "one : small thing?" It _could_ be the death of Asmodean. Except that that highly concerns Rand. Also, I can't see Moiraine taking a full 180 off screen. : 8. THE "OBVIOUSNESS" FACTOR. I reread TSR and TFoH specifically looking : for _anything_ obvious about the death of Asmodean, and it is not at all : obvious to me who killed him. Moiraine, therefore, is as "obvious" as : anyone else. I've reread the series several times, and the only obvious person that pops up, IMNSHO, is Graendal. : OBJECTIONS: Moiraine disappeared with Lanfear. True, but like many of : you, I don't believe she died. I don't believe she died, either. But I do believe that she is still in Finnland, waiting to be rescued, or in some other way incapacitated. : Lan would know if she came back. True, but perhaps since the bond was : broken, then transferred to Myrelle when she went through the : ter'angreal, her reappearance wouldn't cause him any problem, since she : is no longer bonded to Lan. : : YMMV. No one would know that she came back, except for those who might be there when she either returns or is rescued. The key to solving this problem as I see it is to stop trying to put together a scenario where someone might have been able to do it. By a simple process of elimination, you can rule out everyone absolutely either through knowledge that we have in the books, or by the lack of knowledge, except for Sammael and Graendal, and Graendal later admits knowledgeably, under duress, that Asmodean is dead. To Sammael. How she did it, or why she did it (other than the fact that the probability is high that any Forsaken would kill Asmodean on sight, barring Lanfear) is unimportant in figuring out that she was the _only_ person we can confidently point to as being _able_ to. MMOV. Nicely presented, though. -- Drew Gillmore http://www.crosswinds.net/~drewgillmore/