Subject: [TAG] which distribution?

From: "Dean A. Gransar" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 20:30:44 -0800

Hi.
I am greatly interested in installing Linux. I have set a aside a partition for months
but it wasn't untill I attended a workshop that I realized it is much easier to use 
linux (with the graphic interface) than I had thought. So I did a research and found
two softwares that have great support, services, and information online: Red Hat
and Debian. Yet I could not make up my mind which one to choose. I am a philosophy
major and computer writing is not my strenghth so I didn't know which one to choose. 
I thought if i give you my concerns you would tell me which one is right for me so 
my dream of bieng in charge of my computer comes throught. I am not a great fan
of graphic interface and i hope that by reading into linux, taking classes, and asking
questions i can learn to work with the kernal and program myself. 

My concerns are:
I want the distribution to have a lot of packages (debian seems to have the most)
I want the distribuiton to have to most support (red hat has the most support online)
I want the program to access the part of my computer that is monopolized by windows (fat 34 capabilities; windows have xp)
because there are files in that territory that i could use.
I want the program to give the most freedom (it seems red hat does alot of control and takes the absolute freedom)
and at the end be a good operating system for a graphic designer.

I know becuase of lack of my computer knowledge it seems that Im asking for 
something impossbile. However I hope you'd kindly respond to it.

---

From: Alan Pope <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 10:50:30 -0000 (GMT)

Hello.

> I want the distribution to have a lot of packages (debian seems to have

Thats not necessarily so. You can download the source to just about
everything and compile it on any distribution. Debian does have a lot of
debs, and redhat has a lot of RPMs..

> I want the distribuiton to have to most support (red hat has the most

Haha! Are you sure about that? The fact that RedHat don't support RedHat
desktop distributions any more may change that slightly. Also, it depends
where you look for your support. I tend to use IRC ( irc.blitzed org
#hants channel ) and a lot more people there run Debian than RedHat. So I
find there's more support for Debian..

> I want the program to access the part of my computer that is monopolized
> by windows (fat 34 capabilities; windows have xp)

They can both mount "windows partitions". No contest there.

> and at the end be a good operating system for a graphic designer.

To be honest, for the beginner in Linux I used to say "use redhat", now I
say "persevere and use debian". A lot of people like Mandrake, Suse or
Fedora on the desktop.

You'll never get a straight answer to this question out of anyone. Too
many people are "religious" about the distribution they use :D Good luck
though.

My vote: Debian. I use it on 2 desktops, 3 laptops and 2 servers. No
problem. I used to run RedHat, but find debian miles better.

> something impossbile. However I hope you'd kindly respond to it.

If you get any problems, feel free to drop another mail to the TAG, they
like tricky ones :D

Cheers,
Al.
_______________________________________________
TAG mailing list
[email-masked]
http://linuxgazette.net/mailman/listinfo/tag

---

From: Chris Gianakopoulos <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 05:21:18 -0600

> many people are "religious" about the distribution they use :D Good luck

Yea, I'm still a SuSE user (lots software with them too), but I agree that
Debian is a good one too.

Chris G.

---

From: Thomas Adam <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 11:49:20 +0000 (GMT)

--- Alan Pope <[email-masked]> wrote: 

[ ** adding querent back on the CC list -- Alan, ensure you reply_all, and
add the querent's e-mail address back in, if need be. ** ]

> Hello.
> 
> > My concerns are:
> > I want the distribution to have a lot of packages (debian seems to
> have
> > the most)
> 

Back when I started (heh), I ran SuSE as my main distribution of choice --
that did, and still does ship with about 7CDs full of useful software half
of which the 'average' user has no need for, but is still interesting
nevertheless.
 
> find there's more support for Debian..

Only because the people in that IRC channel are oddballs ;). Asking this
kind of question is _always_ result in a bias towards the distribution
being run by the person answering the question. The best answer you could
want for yourself is to try out several distributions for yourself, and
weigh out their differences.

What you'll find is that they're all more-or-less the same (discount
slackware, that is more BSD-ish in operation) both with their disk layout
(yay for LSB) and with the programs that they offer. For instance,
Mandrake/Fedora (the successor to RH) use their empahsis towards the GUI,
and hence offer lots of packages and setups to that goal. SuSE do this to
an extent as well.

Despite what people may tell you, Debian is NO longer a distribution for
those that "know what their doing". Yes, had you have asked me that about
six years ago I might have said that. But things are getting much easier
for Debian -- the user support is growing and it is finally getting good
recognition by a wide-range of people.

> They can both mount "windows partitions". No contest there.

To further extend that, you can use WINE (http://www.winehq.com).

> > I want the program to give the most freedom (it seems red hat does
> alot of
> > control and takes the absolute freedom)

If you want to give things a try, I suggest you download and create for
yourself a Knoppix CD (http://www.knoppix.com), which is handy both as a
live CD as to what you *can* do with your computer, but also as a backup
CD for when things go, errm, wrong.

Hope That Helps,

-- Thomas Adam

=====
"The Linux Weekend Mechanic" -- http://linuxgazette.net
"TAG Editor"                 -- http://linuxgazette.net

"<shrug> We'll just save up your sins, Thomas, and punish 
you for all of them at once when you get better. The 
experience will probably kill you. :)"

 -- Benjamin A. Okopnik (Linux Gazette Technical Editor)

___________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" 
your friends today! Download Messenger Now 
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html
_______________________________________________
TAG mailing list
[email-masked]
http://linuxgazette.net/mailman/listinfo/tag

---

From: Richard Bray <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 08:27:57 -0600

> and hence offer lots of packages and setups to that goal. SuSE do this to

I disagree. The one feature that differentiates the distros for the new user 
is the control panel like programs to setup the machine. I haven't seen 
SUSE's most recent version but I hear they finally surpassed Mandrake in ease 
of configuration post install. 

All the distros seem to be easy to install now. Debian included, if you use 
something like KNOPPIX to install. It's configuring printers, mice, 
firewalls, and other system services after the install where most distros 
fail. Red Hat is probably the worst. If they offer a control panel, it's 
horribly handicapped. The firewall config is the best example.

> CD for when things go, errm, wrong.
I agree about KNOPPIX. Everyone should have that laying around even if they do 
not want to run linux. The Windows administrators at my company use it to 
rescue dead Windows boxes now. They can boot KNOPPIX and copy the important 
files off the machine onto a backup server before re-installing Windows to 
repair it. :) 

Someday they will get smart and just put it on the hard drive in stead.

-- 
Richard A. Bray
[email-masked]
http://brayra.com

---

From: Thomas Adam <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 14:42:25 +0000 (GMT)

> of configuration post install. 

I disagree -- the 'setup' of a machine is actually the same (more or less)
on each distribution. You are referring to the GUI differences which in
themselves are built *on-top* of text configuration files. It is *this*
which is common throughout. What changes is merely the location of these.
As far as ease is concerned, that is a relative process, since some may
find one thing more easier than others.
 
SuSE use YaST (which among other phrases stands for: 'Yet Another Setup
Tool'). This is both grahical and text-based.

> something like KNOPPIX to install. It's configuring printers, mice, 

Why Knoppix to install Debian? If you're trying to play the command-line
installers v GUI-installer game. Forget it.

[..snip..]

-- Thomas Adam

=====

---

From: Richard Bray <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 09:07:38 -0600

I think my point is for the computer neophyte that doesn't know a thing about 
command lines. Like my dad. He can install SUSE and configure it without 
calling me much. Because he has already done Windows. Not that I want linux 
to look like Windows. I am just looking for the easiest transition distro for 
those with that experience. So, a gui can matter.

An example would be a member of our local lug. He installed open source 
software on his parent's Windows machine. OpenOffice, Firefox, Thunderbird. 
He got a ton of suport calls from his parents. Then one day he decided to 
rename everything to the name of the Microsoft software. i.e. he named 
Firefox, Internet Explorer. Then the calls stopped. His parents don't have 
any more problems. 

It may seem like a simple thing. But the proof is out there. I understand the 
command line works. I use it myself.

-- 
Richard A. Bray
[email-masked]
http://brayra.com

---

From: Alan Pope <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 15:09:18 -0000 (GMT)

> find one thing more easier than others.

Umm, forgive me, but he did say "for the new user is the control panel
like programs". For which I completely agree. I am a self confessed geek
who doesn't have a problem with editing text files, but my wife wouldn't
like or want to do that.

To setup the system for me, I'd just hack around te relavent configuration
files, but for her, she'd want something pretty, functional and easy to
use. That's a major problem with most linux distributions IMO, the lack of
a decent *graphical* easy to use tool for configuration purposes.

I recently installed KDE on my debian system and noted that it has a
printer config wizard, which looks nicer and feels more robust than the
CUPS system its sat on. Doesn't mean *I'll* use it, but wifey might.

> installers v GUI-installer game. Forget it.

Harsh.

Knoppix is easier to install than plain debian. [FACT]. No disputing it.
You chuck a CD in and within minutes you will have debian with lots of
extra stuff with minimal effort and no faffing around with config files.

This has got to be a win-win situation for Linux (and debian). It means
more people using Linux (tick!), it means more people using debian
(tick!), it means more people realising that Linux isn't "Just for nerds"
(tick!). Ok, so it's a win-win-win situation.

Just because debians $DEITY-awful text based installer is okay for some,
doesn't mean its good for everyone.

Don't forget one thing a lot of us spend a lot of our professional and
private time doing is convincing Joe Public that Linux is a Good Thing
(tm). If we stumble at the "is it easy to install" hurdle then you can
kiss that convert goodbye.

If I can say to a Windows Luser mate "hey, stick this cd in, and it will
allow you to use a nice graphical windowing system, browser, office, mail,
graphical manipulation etc with *no* Linux knowledge *at* *all* then that
has to be fun.

As an illustration, I did this last night. I have a mate who has never
used Linux at all. He's a windows man. One of his projects is to put a PC
in an arcade cabinet and boot an OS so he can play MAME (old classic
arcade games via emulation). I suggested Linux and he was colder Tux on
Pluto to the idea. When I mentioned he could chuck a hard disk in the
machine with all the games on, and just boot to a CD (that happens to run
linux) and that it works out of the box, he was interested.

Needless to say, he was amazed at how easy it was. I suggested that he
might want to install it on his hard disk, but then thought, why bother?
It works, he doesn't have to worry about corrupt file systems or fscks on
boot.. Winner! :D

</ramble>

Windows users are used to GUIs, good or bad. Yes, you and I can use
vi/emacs/jed/whatever, and have a great time with it. But Joe Schmoe wont
touch it if he has to type commands in. This is completely fair and right.
Comuters have been around for *how* long? And you still have to type
commands in!? Why don't we just go back to paper tape and punched cards
and be done with it! :D

Cheers,
Al.

---

From: Thomas Adam <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 15:28:08 +0000 (GMT)

$person(> >) = "Thomas Adam"
$previous="Richard Bray"

(Alan, when you snip, could you retain the people's names, thanks. It
gives our scripts more of a change that way :))

> who doesn't have a problem with editing text files, but my wife wouldn't

While this maybe true, not everything is solvable from a GUI, and there
are instances when one has to edit text files. We have had this discussion
in the past (c.f. Window Defectors' column of previous months ago).

[..snip..]

> Knoppix is easier to install than plain debian. [FACT]. No disputing it.

Yes, but Knoppix already *has* everything there, which in itself is
limiting since there is *so* much more than just a 'prettified' KDE GUI.

> doesn't mean its good for everyone.

Maybe not, but I have mentioned a lot in the past about why a text-based
installer was used for Debian.
 
[..snip..] -- see the Windows Defectors' Column from previous months.

-- Thomas Adam

=====

---

From: Alan Pope <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 16:16:43 -0000 (GMT)

> gives our scripts more of a change that way :))

Sorry, I didn't snip, it was the mail client that did that.

> in the past (c.f. Window Defectors' column of previous months ago).

I didn't say every problem was solveable. Ok, here's an example from the
windows world. If you're configuring windows you use a GUI for the vast
majority of stuff. My wife has never used a command line in windows, never
had to. For Joe end user they shouldn't have to. The vast set of standard
daily tasks are available through a GUI. This isn't often the case with
Linux.

This is not a philosophical point of view, it's a fact that one reason
Windows users are weary of switching to linux is the command line. If the
majority of their daily tasks can be addressed through options in a GUI
then they'll find life "easier".

I reiterate, you and I are fine with command lines, that I don't dispute.
I just believe that *not* providing GUI tools seriously hampers Linux
penetration on the desktop.

> limiting since there is *so* much more than just a 'prettified' KDE GUI.

Exactly my point. Install windows and you get a GUI, cruddy notepad, awful
basic word processors, calculator etc. All basic, but GUI based and pretty
easy to use.

Insert the debian CD and get a windows *user* not techy, *user* to get the
same functionality and they will spend a good while doing it. Give them
Knoppix and they're ahead of windows from the get-go - and for free!

> installer was used for Debian.

To be frank that's not relavent. I'm talking about joe-user installing
Linux and getting going with the same or similar apps as they can on
Windows in the same or less time. Not the reason why one distie chose one
way over another.

Cheers,
Al.

---

From: Thomas Adam <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 16:44:50 +0000 (GMT)

> Sorry, I didn't snip, it was the mail client that did that.

Not a problem.

> daily tasks are available through a GUI. This isn't often the case with

Perhaps, but you have to remember that both OSes are built up from
different principles. Unix was, and is, and forever will be command-line
based. 
 
Windows was built entirely on the idea that point-and-click is the way
forward. Fine. But you have to remember that yes, why such GUIs do exist
under Linux to achieve so-called 'common' tasks, it does not escape the
fact that the GUIs can only provide some of the functionality that the CLI
equivilent holds. It is at *this* level, at the command-line that power is
achieved. 

By all means, allow the 'new' user to be able to use the GUI, but showing
them the potential that the CLI has over a GUI is paramount. Whether this
is done from the outset or not is up to the person. I often find it
annoying that we should be trying to make windows -> (potentialy) Linux
users work under Linux in such a way as to make it seemingly like windows.
Sure, with Knoppix you get a nice transition like this, but I have seen a
number of people put off with this when they cannot find a GUI to do a
task, because they assume *everything* can be done with a GUI. When one
then goes on to present a CLI (shock horror) solution, they look on in
vain. Why? Because they alas, know no different.
 
> Windows in the same or less time. Not the reason why one distie chose

That's not what I was talking about either, Alan. I was saying that there
is no advantage to having a GUI installer compared to a non-GUI one. Both
are intuitive in their own right.

-- Thomas Adam

=====

---

From: Alan Pope <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 18:52:28 +0000

>different principles. Unix was, and is, and forever will be command-line
You, I and probably everyone else on this list know that. I never 
suggested it wasn't.

>equivilent holds. It is at *this* level, at the command-line that power is
That argument does not hold true for everything. You seem to dismissing 
GUIs out of hand. As if GUIs have no place in this world. Mind you, what 
should one expect from someone who uses fvwm eh? :D

What you're implying is that anything that is done with a GUI can also 
be done at the command line. Fine, I have no problem with that. For 
every "webmin", theres an xxx.conf, for each "network config wizard" 
there's /etc/network.

The problem isn't with me though is it? It's everyone else out there 
we're trying to convert/upgrade/assimilate. They just don't want to be 
faffing around with text files when they can choose radio buttons and 
checkboxes with a nice little tooltip telling them what to do.

>users work under Linux in such a way as to make it seemingly like windows.
But that's the problem Thomas. *You* have a problem with GUIs. There's 
millions of people out there who don't, who actually *like* the feel of 
clicking on things to get jobs done.

>vain. Why? Because they alas, know no different.
And they shouldn't have to know different is my argument. There are many 
users out there who *rightly* see computers as a tool to get a job done. 
In the same way that a car is a means to get from A to B, a VCR is a 
method for timeshifting TV programmes, an alarm clock is a mechanism for 
waking you up in the morning/afternoon. I want to use all those devices 
for the purposes that *I* want to use them. Joe User wants to use them 
for his purposes.

He wants to "just edit a document" or "just type an email". I find the 
attitude that IT professionals have that users need to somehow 
understand what's going on under the bonnet (hood) of the computer to be 
seriously misguided. Yes, some people have an *passing* interest in 
what's happening, or how they can better control the process they are 
involved, but the vast, vast majority don't.

I teach IT courses all the time to people whose ability ranges from 
"never used a computer before" to "16 years unix experience". Some of 
them want to know how it all works and that's great, because I can talk 
about computers and how they work all day every day. However,  a lot, 
and I mean a LOT, just want to know how to get the job done and that's 
all. I've learned a very valuable skill over the years. "When to stop 
talking techy to non-techies". It's a subtle skill that requires one to 
watch carefully for the merest hint of boredom, and eye-glazing.

Your average driver couldn't care less how their car actually works, 
they just want it to work. Now however much that annoys a car 
enthusiast, there are millions of people on this planet who view cars in 
that way, a tool. Same thing with computers, they are tools. My wife 
falls into that category. I will never even attempt to explain how and 
why the computer does certain things to my wife, she just plain isn't 
interested. She wants to know that she can turn it on, press a button 
and get her a mail. GUIs work, and work well for this class of user.

>are intuitive in their own right.
Of course there is. Compare a trabant to a VW Golf. Both do the same 
thing, one with comfort and style, the other with excess pollution, 
noise and smell. Given a choice I would be willing to bet the vast 
majority of people would take style and comfort over noise and smell any 
day. Ok there's an overhead to using the "better" one - in the case of 
the car it's the initial cost, and servicing costs. A cost in money or 
CPU cycles and memory in the case of a GUI on a computer.

If you are trying to convert a Windows user to Linux, the *first* thing 
they are likely to see is the installer. All I am suggesting is that one 
is better for the non-techy than the other.

Get a bunch of people - definately non-technical and put them in front 
of a computer with a (set of!) Debian CD and a Knoppix one. Chances are 
they will try both and prefer the Knoppix one simply because it's quick 
to get going, doesn't require them to learn all kinds of "techy terms" 
and has a real benefit in that it has the apps already loaded.

Yeah it's a CD full of junk apps that you or I may not specifically 
choose, but the general populous will definately like it. I have shown 
knoppix to windows users and they've been blown away. I've lost count of 
the number of Knoppix CDs I've burned for people and given away.

I think Knoppix et al are the single best way for us to penetrate the 
desktop with a robust, upgradable, maintainable, *usable* desktop for 
the masses.

I wouldn't use it myself, as I've said, I use plain Debian and only use 
Knoppix when I want to show someone how fantastic (and fun!) Linux *can* be.

Cheers,
Al.

---

From: Rick Moen <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 11:42:17 -0800

Quoting Alan Pope ([email-masked]):

> GUIs out of hand. As if GUIs have no place in this world.

How else would we get multiple xterms?

(Is there an actual discussion here somewhere, or just hauling out of
hoary debate chestnuts in a particularly boring fashion?)

> If you are trying to convert a Wind*ws user to Linux, the *first* thing 
> they are likely to see is the installer.

Because they've never seen one before?  (Remember, the norm in the
MS-Wind*ws world is to use preloads.)

I hope you weren't going to say "Linux must be made as easy to install
as what MS-Wind*ws users are accustomed to", because it's difficult to
match not having to use an installer at all.  Not impossible, however:
http://linuxonadisk.net/

I admire Knoppix very greatly, including as an easy installer for
Debian.  (See:  "Installers" on http://linuxmafia.com/kb/Debian )
However, there's no installer like.... no installer.  ;->

-- 
This message falsely claims to have been scanned for viruses with F-Secure
Anti-Virus for Microsoft Exchange and to have been found clean.
_______________________________________________
TAG mailing list
[email-masked]
http://linuxgazette.net/mailman/listinfo/tag

---

From: Mike Orr <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 07:54:33 -0800

> debs, and redhat has a lot of RPMs..

Comparing the raw number of packages between distributions is like
comparing apples and oranges.  It's an arbitrary choice how many distro
packages to split a source package into.  Debian chooses relatively
many, so you can install everything on a developer's machine, the
runtime packages on Aunt Tooley's machine, and a no-UI package on an
embedded system.  There are server packages, client-only packages,
documentation-only packages, library-only packages, development header
packages, etc.  Python is split into a dozen or so packages so you can
avoid the Tk portions, etc.  Each package has a unique set of
dependencies, so choosing your packages carefully means you don't have
to install tons of stuff you'll never use.  Stuff that may be difficult
to install, tedious to configure, or missing or broken in the current
distro.  If you use Debian Testing or Unstable (rather than Stable) and
upgrade frequently, every few months you'll run into a situation where a
package has broken or circular dependencies, or a required package
doesn't exist in the repository or is not the right version, etc.  In
those cases it's easiest to delete unneeded problematic packages until
the repository gets its act together.

Slackware has relatively few packages.  The packages "contain their
dependencies within themselves" to a greater degree, so it's more likely
you can just install a package and it works, rather than having to
install the ten packages it depends on, the twenty packages *they*
depend on, etc.  The tradeoff is that a single package may contain all
the runtime, development, library, documentation, and GUI files whether
you'll be using all of them or not.  That means you may have to
selectively delete files on an embedded or diskspace-challenged system.

Red Hat makes similar choices as Debian but not exactly the same.  I
don't think RH makes quite as many little packages as Debian does.

Some packages are also pseudo-packages, meaning they don't contain any
files themselves, but only dependencies to certain other of packages.
This allows a convenient way to install alternate "scenarios" in one
step, but it also inflates the total number of packages.

Also, RPM has source packages in the same RPM format as binary packages,
whereas DEB uses a separate format (three files) for each source
package.  So if you include source RPMs in the total number of packages,
you've essentially doubled the number (although 35% would be a closer
estimate).

-- 
-Mike Orr (aka. Sluggo), [email-masked]  ([email-masked])
   http://sluggo.kicks-ass.org/                  Cxu vi parolas Esperante?
_______________________________________________
TAG mailing list
[email-masked]
http://linuxgazette.net/mailman/listinfo/tag

---

From: Richard Bray <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 14:09:43 -0600

On Mon March 08 2004 22:30, Dean A. Gransar wrote:
> Hi.
> I am greatly interested in installing Linux. I have set a aside a partition

OK, let's try to make sense of this spiraling discussion.

Base of Linux is command line. That's a given.

GUI is window dressing. Good for computer neophytes.

GUI is two main things. Installer and Post-Install Control Panels.

Most commercial and some non-commercial distros have good installers. At least 
as good as Microsoft. 

I'm more concerned about the post-install configuration.

Also, the place where KNOPPIX really shines is in the hardware auto-detection. 
The beauty of that is the fact that the configurations scripts configure 
themselves. The developers of linux would be wise to realize the reception 
that KNOPPIX has garnered for solely that reason. 

AUTO CONFIGURATION

With as many eyes and different systems that we use linux on, someday it could 
get even more intelligent about configuration. We all know that will not work 
100% of the time. However if you didn't need to edit files OR use a gui 
configuration tool 90% of the time. Then linux could win by being far 
superior in configuration than Windows. 

In conclusion, linux should aim towards not needing manual configuration at 
all. Make it available, but limit the need. And, provide a gui whenever 
possible to reach the widest possible audience. 

Right now the closest is SUSE. KNOPPIX is a close second, but debian still 
lacks a centrol configuration tool AFAIK.

-- 
Richard A. Bray
[email-masked]
http://brayra.com

---

From: Mike Orr <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 14:27:35 -0800

> GUI is window dressing. Good for computer neophytes.

Linux allows you to do everything on the command line, and some things
through a GUI.  Windows tries to make you do everything through a GUI
because it's "better".  There is command-line support in Windows, both
for backward compatibility and for sysadmin necessity, but it's incomplete
and inconvenient.

> Also, the place where KNOPPIX really shines is in the hardware
> auto-detection.  The beauty of that is the fact that the configurations
> scripts configure themselves. The developers of linux would be wise to
> realize the reception that KNOPPIX has garnered for solely that reason. 

Years ago many people said, "To install Linux without headaches, use SLS."
It was about the only thing that looked like a distribution.

Then they said, "To install Linux without headaches, use Slackware."
Slackware had a rudimentary package system and text configuration dialogs.

Then they said, "To install Linux without headaches, use Red Hat.  They
actually test their distributions."  RH was the first 'commercial'
distribution, so quality control affected their bottom line.

Then they said, "To install Linux without headaches, use SuSE."  SuSE
bundled some not-quite-free software that GUI fans nevertheless wanted.
It also came with an exceptionally thorough manual and reasonably advanced
config tools.

Around 1998 some other distributions were also touted as easy to install
and relatively foolproof, such as Mandrake, but I never used them personally
so I can't comment.

Now many people say, "To install Linux without headaches, use Knoppix."  It
just boots from CD, probably recognizes all your hardware, doesn't mess
with your hard drive unless you tell it to, so you can give Linux a safe
and easy trial without "installing".  It's not the first distribution to
run from CD, detect hardware, provide auto-login to a complete
functioning desktop with a web browser, office suite and KDE tools, or
be Debian-based, but it's the first distribution to combine all these
features together, and by all reports its hardware detection puts
commerical distributions to shame.  Plus there's no need to configure X
or the framebuffer or anything, it just works.  I know people who just
give a Knoppix CD to anybody who's interested in Linux, or to anybody
who needs to rescue a Windows system.  

So Knoppix has definitely raised the bar.  But no doubt other
distributions will appear and perhaps are appearing that that will equal
it and eventually surpass it.  RPM fans are no doubt waiting for an
RPM-based equivalent soon.

---

From: Rick Moen <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 16:31:48 -0800

Quoting Richard Bray ([email-masked]):

[Describes his ideal autoconfiguration setup.]

> Right now the closest is SUSE. Knoppix is a close second...

You may well be right.  I haven't tried the latest SUSE, and it's
definitely time to do that again.  On the other hand, one can lawfully
duplicate Knoppix CD images for friends, and encourage them to do
likewise.  Once you make people understand that it's real _and_ won't
hurt their computers _and_ lawful to distribution, the copies tend to
veritably fly off your pile.

> ...but Debian still lacks a central configuration tool, AFAIK.

If you're looking YaST2's exact scope of functionality, that will be
found (for good or for bad) _only_ in SUSE.  

Otherwise, the answer for Debian is the same as the traditional one for
questions about standards:  "How many do you want?"  You can install a
variety of configuration front-ends for the various subsystems --
PPP-configuration, desktop configuration, etc. -- or you can install
Webmin (and some of its myriad plug-in packages) if you insist on using
one single tool to administer everything.

My own preference in a single tool to administer everything is "vi",
though -- and, for a graphical administration tool, vi in an xterm.

-- 
Cheers,
Rick Moen                      "vi is my shepherd; I shall not font."
[email-masked]                               -- Psalm 0.1 beta
_______________________________________________
TAG mailing list
[email-masked]
http://linuxgazette.net/mailman/listinfo/tag

---

From: Ben Okopnik <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 20:04:07 -0500

> though -- and, for a graphical administration tool, vi in an xterm.
 
Rick, I hope you don't mind being quoted. :)

> [email-masked]                               -- Psalm 0.1 beta

Your quote gremlins acting up again, Rick? I've beaten mine about the
head and shoulders with an unbated ablative absolute, and they still
slip one in on me once in a while. Some time back, I sent my brother a
link to an amusing on-line game that has a certain boxer chomping
falling ears to score points, and they hauled out

  "Van Gogh became a painter because he had no ear for music."
   -- Nikki Harris

[shudder]

* Ben Okopnik * okopnik.freeshell.org * Technical Editor, Linux Gazette *
-=-=-=-=-=o0o=-=-=-=-= <http://linuxgazette.net/> =-=-=-=-=o0o=-=-=-=-=-
_______________________________________________
TAG mailing list
[email-masked]
http://linuxgazette.net/mailman/listinfo/tag

---

From: Rick Moen <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 17:25:09 -0800

>   "Van Gogh became a painter because he had no ear for music."

Ear today, gone tomorrow!

-- 
Cheers,     "You have acquired a scroll entitled 'irk gleknow mizk'(n).--More--
Rick Moen    This is an IBM Manual scroll.--More__
[email-masked] You are permanently confused." -- ADOM (a roguelike game)
_______________________________________________
TAG mailing list
[email-masked]
http://linuxgazette.net/mailman/listinfo/tag

---

From: Ben Okopnik <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 20:31:09 -0500

> Ear today, gone tomorrow!

Was that an oto-response?

---

From: Rick Moen <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 17:33:46 -0800

> Was that an oto-response?

Aural fixation.

-- 
Cheers,   "This is mad, egotistical, sick, twisted, and stretches the bounds of
Rick Moen   good taste right off the tongue, past the uvula, and down around 
[email-masked]      the duodenum.  It has other merits, but that should 
           indicate positive interest."  -- The Cube, http://www.forum3000.org/
_______________________________________________
TAG mailing list
[email-masked]
http://linuxgazette.net/mailman/listinfo/tag

---

From: Ben Okopnik <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 20:42:31 -0500

> > Was that an oto-response?

You're only saying that out of malleus.

---

From: Rick Moen <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 17:56:58 -0800

> You're only saying that out of malleus.

Unless you've suddenly become an auricle, I suspect you have no basis
for that and are just trying to stirrup trouble.

-- 
Cheers,                                 Quantum materiae materietur marmota 
Rick Moen                               monax si marmota possit materiari? 
[email-masked]
_______________________________________________
TAG mailing list
[email-masked]
http://linuxgazette.net/mailman/listinfo/tag

---

From: Thomas Adam <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 02:00:41 +0000 (GMT)

> for that and are just trying to stirrup trouble.

Trust you two to overlobe things....

-- Thomas Adam

=====

---

From: Ben Okopnik <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 21:13:13 -0500

> Trust you two to overlobe things....

Yeah, all us members of the inner-ear sanctum are like that: we release
our puns ear-ly and often.

---

From: Ben Okopnik <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 21:10:56 -0500

> for that and are just trying to stirrup trouble.

Stapes that, or people won't let us within hearing range again!

---

From: Rick Moen <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 20:34:56 -0800

> Stapes that, or people won't let us within hearing range again!

Reminds me:   Once or twice, I've been known to keep a running gag going
for a long, long time.  See:
http://linuxmafia.com/pub/jordan/Humor/war-of-the-fish-haikus.txt

And if you happen to enjoy that, there was:
http://linuxmafia.com/pub/jordan/Humor/alt.shrugged
(in which I appeared as a minor character).

-- 
Cheers,
Rick Moen                                        This space for rant.
[email-masked]
_______________________________________________
TAG mailing list
[email-masked]
http://linuxgazette.net/mailman/listinfo/tag

---

From: Ben Okopnik <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 23:50:34 -0500

> http://linuxmafia.com/pub/jordan/Humor/war-of-the-fish-haikus.txt

Heh. I did much the same thing in alt.callahans years back, although
it's not abstracted anywhere I know. 

> (in which I appeared as a minor character).

[LOL!] Rick, I read that thing and adored its insanity a *long* time
back. My evil past comes back to haunt me...

Speaking of which, got an email today: an ex-student of mine who is in
the military happened to be in Hawaii this week, and heard somebody
singing praises of a really great Perl instructor who lives on a boat...
So the new guy says, "are you talking about Ben Okopnik, by any chance?"
You could hear the delicate sound of jaws dropping in the resulting
silence.

[chuckle] I'm told that they'll raise a couple of beers to me when they
get off work tonight.

---

From: "Jay R. Ashworth" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 22:11:52 -0500

On Tue, Mar 09, 2004 at 08:04:07PM -0500, Ben Okopnik wrote:
> head and shoulders with an unbated ablative absolute,

You've read the new book?

Cheers,
-- jra
-- 
Jay R. Ashworth                                                [email-masked]
Member of the Technical Staff     Baylink                             RFC 2100
The Suncoast Freenet         The Things I Think
Tampa Bay, Florida        http://baylink.pitas.com             +1 727 647 1274

        "They had engineers in my day, too."  -- Perry Vance Nelson
_______________________________________________
TAG mailing list
[email-masked]
http://linuxgazette.net/mailman/listinfo/tag

---

From: Ben Okopnik <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 22:28:16 -0500

> You've read the new book?

[perk] New? Do tell.

---

From: "Jay R. Ashworth" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 22:31:13 -0500

> > You've read the new book?

I scooped *you*?

Cool.

_For Us, The Living_; Robert Heinlein's first novel; written in 1938 or
so, and lost until last June or so.

In stores, as they say, now.

My review is in my weblog.

Cheers,
-- jra

---

From: Thomas Adam <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 03:38:58 +0000 (GMT)

> so, and lost until last June or so.

Ah, that would be H.G. Wells taking back? in time with him.

-- Thomas Adam

=====

---

From: Ben Okopnik <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 22:48:41 -0500

> so, and lost until last June or so.

Daaaamn. I _thought_ "Grumbles from the Grave" sounded a tad
prophetic...

> In stores, as they say, now.

And in my hands, soon. ([sigh] Yeah, yeah, a dozen or so books piled
next to me and needing to be read *now*. [shrug] So it goes. What are
they going to do, not let me die when the time comes until I've read
them all?)

> My review is in my weblog.

Not *now*, Jay; I haven't trawled through lileks.com since "Regrettable
Food" came out. I'll get to you eventually. :)

---

From: Rick Moen <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 17:23:44 -0800

Hi there, Dean!

Quoting Dean A. Gransar ([email-masked]):

> I am greatly interested in installing Linux. I have set a aside a
> partition for months but it wasn't until I attended a workshop that I
> realized it is much easier to use Linux (with the graphic interface)
> than I had thought. 

Depending on what you'd like to try, and whether you have some time and
energy to spare, this can be a lot of fun.  (Remember what one of the
Unix community's most prized cynics, Jamie Zawinski, said:  "Linux is
free if your time has no value.  ;->   )

If possible, find a Linux-using acquintance who can kibbitz with you.  I
imagine you're in the Los Angeles area (going by your e-mail address),
and there are quite a number of active and friendly Linux user groups in
the LA area.  Please see:  http://www.lalugs.org/  One of them might be
very glad to have someone look over your shoulder.

> So I did a research and found two softwares that have great support,
> services, and information online: Red Hat and Debian. Yet I could not
> make up my mind which one to choose. I am a philosophy major and
> computer writing is not my strenghth so I didn't know which one to
> choose.

Come not to the Linux users for advice, for they will say "Debian" and
"Knoppix" and "Fedora" and "SUSE" and "Xandros" and "Libranet" and
"Linux-Mandrake" and "Lycoris Desktop/LX" and "Lindows OS" and
"Slackware" and "Vectorlinux" and "Spinix" and "uOS" and "Peanut Linux"
and "MEPIS" and "elxLinux" and....

It's what we like to call a "religious question".  ;->

> have the most)

Probably.  But all the major distributions have just about every
application you could wish for, really.

> I want the distribuiton to have to most support (red hat has the most

Honestly, "support" is a slippery concept.  What do you really mean by
that?  It's very difficult know in advance which sorts of assistance are
likely to be available, affordable, and useful.  Fortunately, with
Linux, you can get your feet wet by just picking a distribution and
trying one.  If it's frustrating you, or you just want to move on and
try a different one, you can wipe the first one out and load a second
one.  With a small number of exceptions, all you lose is your time.

> I want the program to access the part of my computer that is
> monopolized by Wind*ws (FAT32 capabilities; Wind*ws have XP) because
> there are files in that territory that i could use.

As others have probably mentioned, any Linux distribution will come
already equipped to read and write to FAT32 partitions, and most will
have read-only access to NTFS.  (It's possible to enable write-mode
access with some versions of the Linux NTFS driver, but not yet very
safe for your data files' integrity.  There's also a relatively new
trick for piggybacking XP's own NTFS driver for safe read/write access.)

> I want the program to give the most freedom (it seems Red Hat does
> a lot of control and takes the absolute freedom) and at the end be a
> good operating system for a graphic designer.

The notion of Red Hat, Inc. and "control" is pretty much an illusion:
You'll seldom find a more benign company -- and it's hard to name any
that's done more for Linux, been more of a consistent leader, and more
consistently released its work to the community under open-source
licensing.

One of the company's major initiatives for the last few releases has
been to make the "desktop" configuration behave in a consistent manner
and have a consistent style.  If you prefer creative anarchy over a
somewhat corporate-leaning uniformity, then Red Hat's "Blue Curve"
desktop setup might seem a little stifling.  It's not for everyone, but
many like it a great deal.

The company offers several Red Hat bundles with differing degrees of
paid handholding support, or you can choose the completely a la carte
and open source "Fedora" variant.  

Anyhow, you also mention the need for the Linux distribution to support
your work as a graphic designer.  Please be cautioned that, although
there is a great deal of good graphics-manipulation and rendering
software for Linux, there are some categories that are a bit rough, and
there are some holes in your toolkit.  (For example on the latter,
colour-matching and prepress colour-separation algorithms _could_ be
added to programs like The GIMP, but EFI's patents would make that
unlawful.  See:  http://www.levien.com/gimp/gcmm.html )

One good place to learn about graphics tools for Linux is at the
"Graphics Muse" site run by former Linux Gazette columnist Michael J.
Hammel.  Please see:  http://www.graphics-muse.com/

> I know because of lack of my computer knowledge it seems that I'm
> asking for something impossible. However I hope you'd kindly respond
> to it.

I hope you have fun with Linux, encountering varied delights and
surprises, and not wasting too much time.  ;->

---

From: Raj Shekhar <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 07:22:21 +0530

Dean A. Gransar wrote:
> I want the program to give the most freedom (it seems red hat does alot 
> of control and takes the absolute freedom)

You can check out the Codeweaver's Crossover Office 
(http://www.codeweavers.com/). Using crossover office, they claim that 
you can run Adobe Photoshop on Linux.

Though Linux has its own graphic packages (GIMP, sodipodi), they do not 
yet measure up to Photoshop (hopefully this should change in a few 
months ).

-- 
    / \__
   (    @\___	Raj Shekhar
   /         O  	My home : http://geocities.com/lunatech3007/
  /   (_____/   	My blog	: http://lunatech.journalspace.com/
/_____/   U

---

From: Ben Okopnik <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 21:20:34 -0500

> yet measure up to Photoshop (hopefully this should change in a few 

Having used both to a fair extent, I would strongly disagree. I find
GIMP to be capable of everything I need in a way of graphic editing,
while Photoshop either hides it away in weird ways (just rotating a
picture in a default Photoshop setup takes about fifteen steps - if you
can even puzzle out where it's hidden) or simply did not have it.

For those who are misled by GIMP's simple appearance, take a read of
"Grokking the GIMP" - a free book that is a package in at least Debian -
for a knockout review of its capabilities.

---

From: Thomas Adam <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 02:25:08 +0000 (GMT)

> for a knockout review of its capabilities.

What of "ImageMagick"? I use [1] all the time...amazing.

-- Thomas Adam

[1] http://rmagick.rubyforge.org/

=====

---

From: Thomas Adam <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 02:25:08 +0000 (GMT)

-- Thomas Adam

=====

---

From: Ben Okopnik <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 21:38:37 -0500

> What of "ImageMagick"? I use [1] all the time...amazing.

Different class of tool, but - yeah. Pretty amazing, although the syntax
can be, um, A Tad Overwhelming.

---

From: Raj Shekhar <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 07:56:40 +0530

> can even puzzle out where it's hidden) or simply did not have it.

Actually Ben, graphic artists seldom use menus to do their work. Most of 
them use keyboard shortcuts. I am not sure how close the keyboard 
shortcuts in GIMP are to that of Photoshop. So the rotating that took 
you fifteen steps in Photoshop might just take two clicks and two key 
press to a veteran Photoshop user.

I think the "familirity factor" or the "comfort zone" thing offered by 
Photoshop might be one of the factors that graphic artists find it hard 
to change to GIMP.

---

From: Ben Okopnik <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 22:04:49 -0500

> press to a veteran Photoshop user.
 
In GIMP, it takes me one shortcut and zero clicks - and I can remap it
anytime simply by putting the cursor on the menu item and pressing the
key.

> Photoshop might be one of the factors that graphic artists find it hard 

That would work in both directions, in exactly the same way - IOW,
that's not a factor in one being better than the other. As well, the
pig-in-a-poke in your last sentence ("graphic artists all use
Photoshop") isn't making it to market; innuendos generally won't, once
your audience is past its teens. :)

---

From: "Kapil Hari Paranjape" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:21:00 +0530

> for a knockout review of its capabilities.

Definitely agree with Ben. My daughter was able to start Grokking the
Gimp at age 7 with the help given in the on-line manual and with her
parent standing by just in case.

Also worth looking at are the tutorials on the Web site www.gimp.org.

As far as command line graphical tools are concerned---it *is*
possible to run all the GIMP commands from the scheme console that comes
with it--I managed to do a few things while trying to write my first
script-fu---still learning...

Kapil.

---

From: Robos <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 03:00:19 +0100

> Hi.

Hi Dean

> and at the end be a good operating system for a graphic designer.

I say it also is quite important what net access you have. If you have a big
pipe to the net you can go totally cd (dvd) free with debian. Heck, your uni
might even have a debian mirror where you can download __really__ fast.
I use debian on all my machines and it is a buzz to keep up to date. I did
quite some debian installs and now switched over to installing knoppix and
updating that. Works really really nice on several of my machines already
(and some friends' machines). If you already have a partition set aside I'd
say the knoppix install is as easy as it gets and you have all the goody
software you want AND it is already configured for your hardware.
AND since you are a philosopy major you HAVE to go with debian since you get
quite a lot of philosophy there too (cough) ;-)

Simply come back and ask if you have a question (after you tried a
intelligent search on http://google.com/linux)

> something impossbile. However I hope you'd kindly respond to it.

Cheers
Robos
-- 
Robos - 
gpg --recv-keys --keyserver blackhole.pca.dfn.de 6EEADA09
It's GNU/Linux dammit! F U M $ !
_______________________________________________
TAG mailing list
[email-masked]
http://linuxgazette.net/mailman/listinfo/tag

---

From: Robos <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 03:10:58 +0100

HE TAG!
EVER READ THE QUESTION AND INFO?

> questions i can learn to work with the kernal and program myself. 

So stop the debate about whether gui is good or bad for a new user (unless
you want to shout out your opinion in a general sense) since this new linux
user wants to take control (which I personally would take as he wants to use
the console - I think nobody would disagree with this)

Cheers
Robos

---

From: Thomas Adam <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 02:16:14 +0000 (GMT)

> EVER READ THE QUESTION AND INFO?

Might I remind you, Robos (and I quote from the FAQ itself):

```
"Be Warned: The answers themselves may range from friendly to gruff and
often contain sharp humor, horseplay, fluff, pedantry, and pontification;
the discussion spawned by your question may well wander off-topic and
possibly back on again - with all of this reflected in your mailbox.
Thin-skinned folks, those who expect "their answer" and nothing else, and
narrow-minded people are urged to take the appropriate precautions.
(Yellow helmets and fire- and bullet-proof underwear are available in the
shop just off the main lobby.)"
'''
http://linuxgazette.net/tag/ask-the-gang.html

-- Thomas Adam

=====

---

From: Ben Okopnik <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 21:24:03 -0500

> often contain sharp humor, horseplay, fluff, pedantry, and pontification;
                      ^^^^^  ^^^^^^^^^  ^^^^^  ^^^^^^^^      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

We are, indeed, five for five - all within this one thread. Robos, you
can't say that you haven't been warned. :)

---

From: Robos <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 04:30:45 +0100

On Tue, 09.03.04, Ben Okopnik <[email-masked]> wrote:

Hi

> > often contain sharp humor, horseplay, fluff, pedantry, and pontification;

You folks see TAG more like a breeding ground for discussion than for
answering questions it seems :)
Cheer
Robos

---

From: Mike Orr <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 19:40:00 -0800

> answering questions it seems :)

Not just discussion.  We're gathering material for the Back Page!

---

From: Thomas Adam <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 03:40:53 +0000 (GMT)

> answering questions it seems :)

This philosophy is what makes the LG.

-- Thomas Adam

=====

---

From: Ben Okopnik <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 23:31:54 -0500

> This philosophy is what makes the LG.

Agreed, in spades.

That's certainly _the_ thing that makes LG "a little more fun" for me.
There may be /veritas/ in /vino/, but there's a hell of a lot more of it
in discussion with other intelligent, knowledgeable folks - and for me,
LG fills the bill for that aspect of my Linux geekery. I also really
like the fact that new Linux users can get the fine brew resulting from
a distillation of our shared expertise, and that, much in the spirit of
how newsgroups used to be, it's a "peer-reviewed" environment - bad info
doesn't have much of a chance of making it past all of us, plus
Heather's Scissors, and into the pages of LG.

So - crank up the loud music. Reach for the dark beer, the pretzels, the
man pages, and the Webster's.

  Jack the barrier. Bring the noise.
   -- Neal Stephenson, "Snow Crash"