Contents of this section
Serpent and Wheel: Aes Sedai, Wheel of Time, Ta'veren
Ravens: Darkfriends, other minions of the DO
Dragon's Fang: Darkfriends, other minions of the DO, or Rand
Harp: Thom Merrilin
Leafless tree at night: Traveling through woods?
Heron-mark sword hilt: Rand
Two leaves from the Tree of Life and Moiraine's staff: Moiraine (TEotW only)
Flame of Tar Valon: Aes Sedai, Saidar
LeavesA Leaf:/ Ogier, Loial, Waygates, Nynaeve, Wise Women, Tinkers
Horned skull, trident and a paw: Trollocs
Wolf: Wolfbrother, Perrin
Lion Rampant: Andor, Elayne.
Gnarled, Withered Tree: The Blight
Ruby-Hilted Dagger: Shadar Logoth Dagger, Mat, Padan Fain.
Horn: The Horn of Valere
Portal Stone: Portal Stone
Rising Sun: Cairhien
Insect-Like, Horned Helmet: Seanchan
Tree with lots of leaves: stedding, Ogier
Female silhouettes (One Black, One White): Black Ajah, the hunt for them
Dice (FIVE): Mat "(Note the five sixes..Yahtzee!!)" - Joe Shaw
Crescent moon and stars: Lanfear, Daughter of the Night. This one is really note worthy. This icon appears when we meet the peddlers (aka Lanfear and Asmodean) in the waste. Had I realized it was Lanfear's icon, I would have realized then that one of them was Lanfear disguised. Also the same when she appears to the girls as Else. - Judy G.
Dream Ring: Tel'aran'rhiod
Waves: A journey over water
Dragon: Rand "Is it just me, or does this 'dragon' look like a jolly, happy-go-lucky salamander?" - Joe Shaw (it's you, Joe - Pam)
8-pointed star and birds: Sea folk
Two spears & a shield: Aiel
Bull: Gareth Byrne
Elephant: Valen Luca's traveling menagerie
Full Aes Sedai symbol of old: Rand, the Dragon Reborn "under this sign will he conquer"
Snakey square: Forsaken
Joe Shaw claims that you can get high by licking the ink from the icons. The rest of us look upon this claim with skepticism, but Tastes Vary!
Just another thought while re-reading. Our favorite heros all seem to have unusual memories available to them. Meaning :
Windsor Williams reports:
Basically, I'm wondering about the role of the Ogier in pre-Breaking society. From what we know in general, the stedding did exist during the period, but the Ogier were not bound to them by the Longing as they are at the time of the series. So it seems reasonable to assume that they were fairly common everywhere, although most common in and around the stedding.
We know they were involved with the seed singing (as per the "through the eyes of Coumin" scene [TSR: 26, 432-3, The Dedicated, 302-5]), but what other roles did they have? Some clues exist:
Ogier soldiers - also from the Coumin sequence, right at the beginning [TSR: 26, 431, The Dedicated, 302] "He could see the next field, lined the same way, beyond the soldiers with their shocklances sitting atop armored jo-cars. A hoverfly buzzed overhead in its patrol, a deadly black metal wasp containing two men. He was sixteen, and the women had decided his voice was finally deep enough to join in the seed singing."
"The soldiers fascinated him, men and Ogier, the way a colorful poisonous snake might. They _killed_."
The "men and Ogier" phrase seems to imply that there were Ogier soldiers as well as humans. (At least, it does to me.)
Ogier as police or enforcers - again, from the Coumin sequence
[TSR: 26, 434, The Dedicated, 304]
"Abruptly something struck Coumin in the mouth and his legs buckled; he
was pushing himself to his knees before he realized he was down. A hand
put to his mouth came away bloody. He looked up to find an angry-faced
townsman standing over him, nursing a fist. 'Why did you do that?' he
"The townsman spat at him. 'The Forsaken are dead. Dead, do you hear? Lanfear will not protect you anymore. We will root out all of you who served the Forsaken while pretending to be on our side, and treat the lot of you as we treated that crazy old man.'"
"A woman was tugging at the man's arm. 'Come away, Toma. Come away, and hold your foolish tongue! Do you want the Ogier to come for you?' Suddenly wary, the man let her pull him away into the crowd."
"Do you want the Ogier to come for you?"
and the man's response argue that the Ogier were enforcers of peace/police of some sort, and effective ones as well. I'm guessing that they would come for him for the killing of Charn ("that crazy old man"), but maybe it's his statements, instead?
I hadn't thought of Ogier in terms of soldiers or police before, but these passages caught my eye while re-reading the series. We've been told at one point or another that old tales refer to Ogier as bad opponents, who rarely get angry but are very dangerous when they do. (I can't recall the exact place...something about Perrin and some line about Ogier and mountains. Anyone else recall where this is?)
We've seen Loial play an important role a couple of times already (knowing the Ways, closing the Waygate in the Two Rivers), but I'm starting to think we may see quite a bit more of the Ogier before the series ends.
Padan Fain was a Lugard peddler, who moonlighted as a Friend of the Dark. When it came time for the Dragon to be reborn, Fain was taken to Shayol Ghul and made into the Dark One's Hound, to search out TDR. Followed the boys to Shadar Logoth and had a run-in with Mordeth. Mordeth tried to devour Fain's soul, but couldn't, because of the hold the DO had on him. so, Fain became half Mordeth, half minion of the DO. This is basically what the books tell us.
Roy Navarre, and the late Tony Z (no he's not dead, just gone from the Net), came up with a theory that Fain is actually the avatar of the DO. Roy says: First, if you check the glossary, you will see that the DO is described as the source of all evil. Hence Mashadar must flow from the DO or the glossary is wrong. (We had pages and pages of discussion on this in the past). Next, Myself and Tony Z, who doesn't seem to be around anymore presented detailed evidence suggesting that Fain is the avatar of the DO. With each broken seal, Fain gets stronger. Thus, the DO has been in our midst all this time but we just didn't know it. At first only a trace of him in Fain, but growing stronger and stronger until now his presence in Fain seems unmistakable.
Eric Ebinger counters:
Fain no longer exists. Padan Fain was summoned to Shayol Ghul, was broken and reformed into a bloodhound for the DO, as part of which he was imprinted by the DO. This happened twice at Shayol Ghul and once in a dream. Padan Fain/DO bloodhound went to Shadar Logoth and fell prey to Mordeth. Normally, Mordeth would just destroy the existing "soul/personality", but Padan Fain,s having been "remade" by the DO seems to have changed things sufficiently so that there was a slow gradual merging of all of the different personalities (Fain/Mordeth/DO's imprint). The most accurate term for the combination is the name that he took: Ordeith. Over time, the Mordeth portion has gained more and more control over the gestalt.
The DO's imprint has given Ordeith the unreasoning hatred of Rand, Perrin, and Mat. There doesn't seem to be much of anything of Padan Fain left. As the Mordeth fragment has gained more complete control of the gestalt, Ordeith has increased in power. The seeming relationship between the breaking of the Seals and Ordeith's power is due only to the fact that as time passes Ordeith gets stronger and as time passes the Seals break. The same relationship is evident with Rand, Perrin, Mat, Elayne, Egwene, Aviendha and Nynaeve.
Survey Says: Is Fain the DO? Yes: 01, No: 81. You are all alone, Roy!
What is he up to now? Not much, for somebody who is supposedly as dangerous as the Shadow. He went to the Fortress of the Light and the White Tower to sow seeds of dissention, and make sure Pedron Niall and Elaida would never join Rand. He seems to be currently involved in causing Rand trouble, in little instances which could, admittedly, build up. He instigated a failed assassination of Rand by his ex-WCs in Caemlyn. He might also have been responsible for the attack on the Brown AS in Caemlyn which ended up driving a rift between Rand and the Salidar AS, and sending him into the hands of Elaida's AS in Cairhien, but this could just as easily (and more probably) have been part of some Forsaken's plot, or a plot by the Tower AS & the Shaido to alienate the Salidar AS from Rand. He still has his pet myrdraal.
Jain seems to have a cult following among the Jordanites on
"Jain lives!" they proclaim. So, as promised, here is a list of all
the suspects in "who is Jain in disguise" contest.
I cannot think of any more, offhand, although I know there many more.
Dead: 30 No one we know: 6 No one important: 12 Elyas Machera: 8 with Graendal: 11 Jain Farstrider: 8
by Joe Shaw
[TDR: 27, 316-9, Tel'aran'rhiod, 257-9] Most likely, Lanfear , it was part of her plot to get Rand and/or Mat to go to Tear. Egwene and Nynaeve were to be bait to draw him there, only Rand was already going there to stop their attacks through his dreams. The girls were probably just a backup in case he resisted the dreams or learned to shield them on his own. Egwene and Nynaeve were to be Be'lal and Ish.s bait to draw Rand, while Liandrin and Co. were the bait to draw draw Egwene and Nynaeve. See Perrin's dream about the trap in [TDR: 43, 504, Shadowbrothers, 426] (see section 7.6) which matches Egwene's dreams about "puppets" in [TDR: 37, 423, Fires in Cairhien, 352-3] (see section 7.1). Lanfear was playing along with Ish, but working to her own designs.
There's no doubt (in my mind) that Silvie was Lanfear. And the reason for ripping off the ring ter'angreal to throw her out of T'A'R was just her cruel streak; Lanfear knew she was a dream since she had been haunting the White Tower as Else, and just wanted Egwene to go to the Heart of the Stone in T'A'R to make sure the girls decided to go there. Once she had accomplished that, why not send her out the hard way? After all, Lanfear claimed T'A'R as her domain (even though Mog. was stronger there), so there was no need for Egwene to learn too much about "her domain". Plus, her precious LTT reborn had once loved this girl; I'm sure she couldn't resist inflicting a little pain on her, especially since the fact that Eg was bait to draw Rand to Tear meant that he still cared about her. That must have drove Lanfear bonkers.
by Bill Garrett, Pam Korda
RJ said, at a signing, that there were not Ajahs in the AoL. The Ajahs were formed within a few hundred years after the Breaking. The colors of the Ajahs were probably representative of something in the AoL or a previous Age, because the Ajah colors are the colors surrounding the Portal Stones.
A possible, even probable, scenario of the forming of the Ajahs is: Perhaps the AS argued about what was most important... a few said, "we must find and stop all the male channelers who have gone mad!" while others said, "we must fight the Shadowspawn and stay ready to fight them should they return." Others might have placed importance on healing the wounded and stopping the ravage of disease. Then some said, "We must manipulate the governments of the people to make sure they are always ready." A few bookish sorts might have thought it was more important to preserve old knowledge to keep it from getting lost. "What will happen in troubles to come if our descendants forget even the meager things we've learned so far?"
[TFoH: 34, A Silver Arrow, 390] Nynaeve and Birgitte were in T'A'R eavesdropping on the Forsaken Conference. Third Paragraph, Rahvin said, "He [Rand] will concentrate on you [Sammael], ... If need be, one close to him will die, plainly at your order. He will come for you. And while he is fixed on you alone, the three of us, linked, will take him. What has changed to alter any of that?"
So, It seems Melindhra was ordered to kill Mat with a golden bee dagger if the need arose. Mat let slipped to her that Rand's going to Caemlyn, instead of "concentrating of Sammael", and she attacked Mat right away. [TFoH: 51, 871, News Comes To Caemlyn, 617]
I thought this was a dead issue, but apparently it is not. sigh. Okay, why would anybody think Moiraine was BA? well, during TGH, RJ seems to be putting down clues in that direction. namely, she was missing during the time of the DFS. Also, she was wearing her ring on a different finger than she had before (oh no! not that!!!!). Well, this was all a red herring, because since then, we have been privy to Moiraine's thoughts, which show that she walks in the light. Okay, maybe she has multiple personalities, but I doubt it.
Here are the reasons why some people think Thom can channel:
From a signing in Seattle, Edward "potato" Liu tells us:
Now, regarding Thom, RJ said a man will not go mad or sick away if he never channeled. Thus, he agreed that a male channeler who could be taught to channel (as opposed to having the inborn ability) and has never channeled would not die from the taint. BUT, when I asked him if he ever intended to make people think that Thom could channel, he said no. I brought up the hereditary point (i.e. Owen) but he said just because your parents have a particular gene doesn't mean you'll receive that particular gene. Also he made a point that Owen was his nephew so therefore not necessarily very similar gene-wise. When I pressed him again on it, he said (I'm quoting) "There is no way in hell Thom can channel." All he offered for explanations is that Thom is a "mysterious man." Enough said.
Skimming requires knowledge of destination and Traveling requires origin [TFoH: 6, Gateways, 121]. For example, Aviendha Travels to Seanchan which she obviously doesn't know a thing about, but she knew the bathroom real well.
Skimming is like getting somewhere by placing yourself on a highway system. You can take as many people as you can fit in your vehicle, and as long as you know where you are going you can get there. Thus you need to know where your destination well in order to get there.
Traveling is like placing a phone call to somewhere and shifting yourself through the phone lines. Thus if you know how to use a telephone (ie you have knowledge of the place that you are at) you can place a random phone call and hook up with some place that you have never been (what Aviendha did) but if you know the number, you can call wherever you want, and go someplace specific.
In [TGH: 40, 573, Damane, 484], Egwene's sul'dam describes how the Empress will sometimes make a man wear the bracelet of the a'dam. Sometimes nothing happens, and sometimes "both die, screaming." We see something similar happen in [TFoH: 32, A Short Spear, 370] when Rand tries to free the damane in Seanchan. What's happening here? Well, it seems as if the men who are affected by the a'dam are those who can channel, or who have the ability to learn. According to Elayne's study of the a'dam, it works by creating an uneven link between channelers, in which the bracelet holder has complete control. So possible explanations for the "die screaming" effect are:
There are several characters who we know cannot be Darkfriends. We know because jordan has shown us their thoughts when they are thinking about their motivations, their opinions towards the Shadow and the DO, or something similarly indicative. These people are:
Rand, Mat, Perrin, Moiraine, Egwene, Nynaeve, Min, Elayne, Elaida (see Section 1.11 ), Morgase, Thom, Egeanin, Bayle Domon, Pedron Niall, Dain and Geofram Bornhald, Siuan Sanche.
When Rand battles the male Forsaken , he sees black threads, wires, or cords running off from them. This is seen when Rand battles Ishy in [TEotW: 51, 759-62, Against the Shadow, 637-40], and Asmodean in [TSR: 58, 965-972, The Traps of Rhuidean, 671-675]. So what's the deal with these strings?
The thick black threads are the Forsaken's connection to the DO. The connection with the DO is what keeps the male Forsaken from falling prey to the madness taint of saidin (see Asmodean's statements to Rand in TSR after his black "thread" was severed). Rand's thread in TEotW was silver and thinner because it was from that pure pool of saidin that was the Eye of the World.
We've never seen the threads on a female Forsaken, so it is possible that the threads are themselves the protection from the taint. Perhaps they act as a kind of filter on saidin, or a conduit through which the DO siphons off the taint when the Forsaken draws upon the Source.
We've been told since TEOTW that the DO is Lord of the Grave. It is about time
he started acting it. In [LoC: Prolgoue, The First Message,
59-61], we see
Aran'gar and Osan'gar, two minions of the Shadow brought back
from the dead
and put into new bodies. It is a good first approximation to assume that they
and not some random Dreadlords. After all, if the
DO is going to bring people back to life, why not Choose the strongest of his
servants? So, what Forsaken are available for reincarnation (i.e. are dead)?
Aginor and Balthamel, the Terrible Two from the TEOTW finale, Ishamael, Rahvin
and Be'lal, and possibly Asmodean and Lanfear. Well, Rahvin and Be'lal died of
balefire, and their souls are beyond even the reach of the DO. Asmodean was a
traitor, and the DO apparently lumps him in with Rahvin as having "Died the
final death" [LoC: Prologue, The First Message, 15], so it probably wasn't him.
Aran'gar is not Lanfear , because of Osan'gar's statement "Lanfear seemed cautious in contrast
Now, Ishamael was not bound like the other Forsaken during the Third Age. He was "partly bound," or maybe not even bound at all. There are references to this throughout the series, starting with the prologue to TEOTW, where Ishamael appears to LTT during the Time of Madness (chronologically after the sealing of the Bore). However, Osan'gar makes reference to "waking from the long sleep" with an aged body. The long sleep is obviously the time spent sealed between the universe and the DO's dungeon dimension. Thus, Osan'gar must be either Aginor or Balthamel. As to which one, all we really have to go on is his comment on having helped make the Trollocs and not liking the Halfmen who were an unexpected effect of that experiment. We know that Aginor was very involved in creating the various Shadowspawn, and that he was unnerved by Fades, spending lots of time trying to discover how they "fade." So if we have to choose one or the other for Osan'gar, I'll say he was Aginor.
Now for Aran'gar. She is extremely upset at being put into a woman's body, and Osan'gar thinks it is a "fine joke." From TEotW, we know that Balthamel enjoyed "the pleasures of the flesh." That is to say, he liked to have his way with the female sex. Thus, it would be a great joke to put him in a female body. Furthermore, it is stated that Aran'gar was always rather rash. I really wouldn't classify Ishamael as "rash," not with his centuries of careful planning. So, it is a good bet that Aran'gar was Balthamel. Still, it is not 100% certain; we don't have enough evidence to narrow it down to which of the two is Aginor and which is Balthamel for certain. And even though Ishamael probably isn't either of the two, I would bet that he has been reincarnated in a similar fashion, we just haven't seen him yet. (Or, maybe we have, but don't know it :).
[reasons nicely compiled by Jared Samet. Contributors Jared Samet, Bill Garrett, William Smit, John Schwegler, John Novak, Pam Korda, OilCan, and lots of other folks.]
So, is the Mazrim Taim in LoC the real Mazrim Taim, the Saldean False Dragon, or is he the Forsaken Demandred in disguise?
Here, MT=the character in LoC, general of the Asha'man. Taim=the False Dragon we heard about, captured after Falme. Demandred=Forsaken.
A Scenario for MT to be Demandred:
The BA , or a Forsaken, or some Trollocs broke Taim free from where he was being held in Saldaea. They took him to Semirhage, or someone else who could extract every bit of information from his skull (a la the AS Cabriana who Semirhage tortures) and drained him dry. Then they killed him. Now, Demandred either
Then again, MT may really be the original Mazrim Taim. The reason we think of Demandred when we see him is not because he is Demandred, but because he is similar to Demandred in personality - he wanted to be the Dragon, he doesn't like being second-best, etc. Taim could have the ultimate plan of supporting Rand as much as he can, helping him to win the Last Battle. Since Rand is expected to die in the Last Battle, Taim plans to bide his time and take control in the aftermath. After that, well, as MT says, "...write the histories."
Here are the indications that MT = Demandred, and arguments against:
Another possibility, which hasn't been debated as fully, is that Demandred was always Taim. I don't know if the time scale is right, and there are other problems wrt his capture by the AS, etc. Yet another question which has been discussed is that Osan'gar is Taim.
[Tony Zbaraschuck, Marc Zappala, Pam Korda]
In LOC, we find out that Mesaana is hiding out in the White Tower. [LoC: 6, Threads Woven of Shadow, 138] Naturally, this begs the question of who she is. Some folks think that she has taken the Rahvin/Sammael/Be'lal/Graendal route, and is posing as a high-ranking AS in the Tower. The two most-often-mentioned candidates are Galina (the head of the Red Ajah, and the one involved w/ capturing Rand) and Alviarin (Elaida's Keeper of the Chronicles). The reason for these guesses seem to be, in Alviarin's case, that she is in an important position, and thus ideal for controlling the Tower. This reasoning applies in Galina's place, also, and there is the additional point that she somehow managed to escape capture at Dumai's Wells.[LoC: 55, Dumai's Wells, 690-695] However, there is much evidence against Mesaana being either of these two.
by Carolyn Fusinato, Pam Korda
So, Rand is hearing voices. Is Lews Therin a real entity, or is he a product of Rand's taint-maddened imagination? There are two oprions:
firstname.lastname@example.org) Then, there is also, "He raised the point that Rand's creeping insanity may manifest in much more subtle ways than the people of Randland expect..." (from Emmet O'Brien's account of Jordan's talk at Trinity College in Dublin) This doesn't take into account that "LTT" knows things that Rand could never have known on his own--stuff about the AoL, &c. Possibly, Rand's taint-maddened subconscious could be constructing the LTT voice out of past life memories like Mat's. That is to say, the memories and knowledge expressed by LTT are real effects of being somebody Reborn, but the LTT voice is not, Rand has multiple personality disorder.
[Summarized by Daniel L. Rouk, edited by Pam Korda]
To fully illustrate the argument that binding refers to the Oath Rod, check Graendal and Sammael's conversation. Graendal is showing off her Shara rulers. While discussing the Shara channelers, Sammael asks her if they 'bind themselves like criminals'. [LoC: 6, Threads Woven of Shadow, 136]
Sammael thinks he's revealing something Graendal didn't know, but she thinks about how she found out from Mesaana [LoC: 6, Threads Woven of Shadow, 138]. We find out Mesaana is in the White Tower. The only 'binding' that we know about that occurs in the White Tower is the bonds willingly taken by Aes Sedai via the Oath Rod. [ Not so: it could also refer to the AS/Warder bonding.]
Next scene: [LoC: 6, Threads Woven of Shadow, 139-143>] Semirhage is torturing the Aes Sedai, and thinking on how she was 'wronged' because the Age of Legends Servants didn't understand why she gave a little pain with her healing. After all, nobody complained when they owed their life to her. She recollects that she was given two choices, to be severed, or to accept binding. The actual quote is something like "to accept binding, and with that binding to see the end of life approach". This illustrates that 'binding' is in fact as Sammael said, something done to criminals.
From these two scenes we can pretty well conclude that the Oath Rod was, in fact a tool to restrict criminals. Other aspects of the Oath Rod, such as if it is one of the mythical Nine Rods of Dominion, are not answered. If the Oath Rod is simply a punishment device then my opinion is that it is not a Dominion Rod, and that these are something else.
The second half of Semirhage's comment, "and with that binding be able to see the end of life approach," has been interpreted by some to mean that swearing an oath on the Oath Rod somehow causes one's lifespan to be shortened, and this is why AoL AS lived longer than modern AS. Another thing quoted in support of this theory is the Aiel WO who is said to have died at age 300 of a snakebite, but looked quite young still. [LoC: 15, A Pile of Sand, 262] These two things are not really enough to justify this theory. _Everybody_ in the AoL lived longer - possibly something to do with the Tree of Life, or it could simply be that there was better medical care, etc in the AoL. There has never been any evidence that WOs or Seafolk Windfinders (who haven't sworn the Oaths) live an inordinately long time, or that the BA live longer than non-Black AS, or even that ordinary AS live so much shorter than one would expect. In fact, AS live longer than your average Joe.
by Carolyn Fusinato:
email@example.com) CON-Rand should have been able to feel another man channeling or have experienced goosebumps if Aviendha channeled, and Sammael's thoughts about manipulating Graendal [LOC: 23, To Understand A Message, 349] don't make sense if he isn't lying.
Emmet O'Brien, Pam Korda
No. He died by overdrawing on the One Power. RJ said so at the talk he gave in Dublin in November 1993. Plus, if he'd BF'd himself, his soul wouldn't be available for reincarnation, a la Rahvin, I guess.
Erica "nonentity" Sadun, booksigning 10/94
Rand 6'5"-6'6". Perrin 6'2". Mat 5'11". Aviendha 5'8"-5'9". Elayne 5'6". Nynaeve 5'4". Egwene 5'2". Moiraine 5'0-5'2".
Emma Pease, John Novak
Artur Hawkwing might have originated in Tear. (Or at least in the area presently known as Tear.) Why?
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