Article: 35120 of rec.arts.sf.written Path: nntp.msstate.edu!gatech!prism!gt5052b From: gt5052b@prism.gatech.EDU (SADUN, ERICA LIEBMAN) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written Subject: JORDAN: FAQ it to me! Message-ID: <114171@hydra.gatech.EDU> Date: 30 Sep 93 18:43:17 GMT Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology Lines: 3368 ============================================================================= |\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\/| |//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\| |/\\ A EEEEE SSSS SSSS EEEEE DDDD A IIIII /\\| |\\/ A A E S S E D D A A I //\| |\// AAAAA EEE SSS === SSS EEE D D AAAAA I \//| |/\\ A A E S S E D D A A I \\/| |\\/ A A EEEEE SSSS SSSS EEEEE DDDD A A IIIII /\\| |/\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\| |\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//| ============================================================================= "Ages when men ruled the heavens and the stars, and Ages when man roamed as brother to the animals. Ages of wonder and Ages of horror. Ages ended by fire raining from the sky, and Ages doomed by snow and ice covering the land and sea." 'JUST THE FAQS'...Sgt. Friday CONTRIBUTORS. Active Contributors & Articles Plundered From: Erica Sadun Mark Looi Courtenay Footman Michel Forget Eugene Hung Kevin Samborn John S. Novak III Emmet O'Brien Heikki Poso Emma Pease Elayne Thompson Tony Zbaraschuk S. Hillyard Jeff Smith David Wren-Hardin Ruchira Datta Damien Cole Don Harlow Judith Ghirardelli John C. Hansen Bob Hofmann Roy Navarre Christian M Gadeken John Hawkinson Ken Warkentyne Will Baird Arthur Bernard Byrne Bob Gibson Don Morgan Mike Lemons Stephen Graham Jon Vessey Chris Russo Amish S. Dave George D. Phillies Robert Kelley Chris Flora Pam Korda Michael J O'Malley Randy Cerveny Dash Wendrzyk Michael Arnett Carl Traber Jeff P. Schneiter Thomas Petersen Greg Wheatley Joseph Shaw Chad C. D'Amour Orzel Daniel John Kelly-Harrity Patrick Nielsen-Hayden Christopher Lee Cavender Jocelyn Who Is NOT Kathleen (see 1.6.22) (Did I forget anyone?) +.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+ PROOFREEDER IN CHEEF: Crhis Russo REFERENCE CHECKERISSIMO DUDES: Joe Shaw (Official Net Jordan Librarian), Jeff P. Schneiter KEEPER OF THE FLAME OF TAR FTP: Viren R. Shah cy.cs.olemiss.edu (130.74.96.19) available by anonymous ftp. /pub/jordan/Jordan.FAQ. [NB: 'Survey Says' sections are from the Novak/Ghirardelli Survey] [NB: New Standard Reference Format: ] +.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+ CONTENTS: (* = new this faq, + updated this faq, - same as last faq) ADMINISTRIVIA - 0.0 Contents/Submission Requests/Acronyms/Humor Section - 0.1 What are these Jordan Wheel of Time Books? - 0.2 How do I post to rec.arts.sf.written about these books? - 0.3 Why don't we start a new Jordan-only newsgroup? - 0.4 Mis-steps. (Errors along the way) * 0.5 Who is Kathleen? Why is Jocelyn not Kathleen? USEFUL INFORMATION (SHORT ANSWERS) - 1.1 Why do we think that LTT=Beidomon - 1.2 Why do we think that Thom may have fathered Elayne and/or Gawyn - 1.3 Why do we think that Thom will marry Moiraine? - 1.4 What was up with Gawyn during the coup? - 1.5 What is the Tamyrlin? - 1.6 Who will marry Mat? - 1.7 Why do we think that Logain will pull the sword and thus become ungentled? - 1.8 Why will the bracelets be used on Logain or Mazrim Taim? - 1.9 What does Mat being 'free of the one power' mean? - 1.10 Who is Susa? - 1.11 Where do Baby Myrddraal come from? * 1.12 Why isn't Elaida Black? * 1.13 What do we know about Kari Al'Thor? * 1.14 What do we know about Min's family? * 1.15 Why is Eldrene's Veil prominent on the Map? * 1.16 Where are the Scantily Clad Maidens? USEFUL INFORMATION (LONG ANSWERS) - 2.0 Who's Who in the Families? - 2.1 Tigraine: An Analysis - 2.2 Slayer - 2.3 The Severed Hand - 2.4 How old is everyone? - 2.5 What does each Ajah do (and want)? - 2.6 The Green Man and the Song (Who is the Green Man, What is the Song, Who will find the Song, Who were the Aiel?) - 2.7 Fun with Nynaeve - 2.8 Countries of Rand-Land - 2.9 VERIN & MOIRAINE: Black or Not - 2.10 Farstrider & Elyas: Are they the same guy? * 2.11 Is there Religion in RandLand? - 2.12 Should Auld Acquaintance be Forsaken? - 2.13 Black is the color of my true lover's Ajah - 2.14 Why Lanfear may be Good (not just in bed, Roy) * 2.15 Who are the Aelfs & Eelfs (w.r.t. Mat) * 2.16 What's with Saldaea? * 2.17 Who was Mat (in his past lives)? * 2.18 Where have we seen ironic foreshadowing? * 2.19 Why are we sure that Ba'alzamon is really Ishamael? * 2.20 When was Rand's Power Acquisition Fever Syndrome? * 2.21 What's up with Mat, Rahvin/Gaebril, Elayne and Morgase? TRIVIAL PURSUITS - 3.0 Arthur and the Holy Grail - 3.1 Trolloc Tribes - 3.2 Is the world of Rand a future Earth? + 3.3 Biblical Parallels - 3.4 Dark One Names * 3.5 Dragon Legends * 3.6 Mat and Odin * 3.7 How is Dune like the Wheel of Time? IT'S BEEN A LONG TIME, BABY - 4.0 Timeline BOOK COVERS + 97.0 What is it with those stupid Darrel Sweet Covers? PROPHECIES : Readers Guide to Prophecies Great and Small - 98.1 Egwene's Dreams - 98.2 Min's Viewings - 98.3 Various Prophecies - 98.4 Dark Prophecy - 98.5 Moiraine in Conversation + 98.6 Perrin's Dreams PUBLISHING STUFF * 99.0 When Is The Next Book Out? - 99.1 Potential minor spoilers for next book (Fires of Heaven) +.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+ SUBMISSION REQUESTS [Looking for more humor! Please send as you find it.] [What topics have been discussed to death and should I include as 'calls-for-submission' for next month?] [Can someone fill in prophecy fulfillment?] [Please help fill out the countries of RandLand (section 1.8)] [The timeline is really really awful. Will someone volunteer to fix it up?, Huh huh?] ACRONYMS TWoT = The Wheel of Time TEotW = The Eye of the World TGH = The Great Hunt TDR = The Dragon Reborn TSR = The Shadow Rising TFoH = The Fires of Heaven FAQ = WMAK, Wonderful Masterpiece of Assembled Knowledge, but FAQ is easier to say. DO = Dark One Eg/Egw = Egwene Ny = Nynaeve El = Elayne SS = Siuan Sanche AS = Amyrlin Seat (sometimes Aes Sedai) BA = Black Ajah Ish = Ishamael DS = Darkfriend Social OP = One Power TV = Tar Valon LTT = Lews Therin Telamon r.a.sf.w = rec.arts.sf.written J*****n = Wimpy response to great literature IMHO = In my humble opinion DJASA = Damn, Just Another Stupid Acronym Notational System for the Design, Implementation and Debugging of Dynamic Interfaces (wonder how That slipped in here!?) AH, HUMOR. (See Section 1.6.20 for Ironic Foreshadowing) "None of that has anything to do with ta'veren," Perrin said. "Loial is a friend and he came to help me. Gaul is a friend, too, I suppose. Bain and Chiad came with Faile, not me. It's all sort of complicated, but it just happened. Nothing to do with ta'veren." Min to Rand: 'Go, then. But you won't escape.' tee hee hee. "Every woman is an Aes Sedai" (Rand thinking to himself on way back to Fal Dara from The Eye) "Poetry out of Lan? The man was like an onion; every time Rand thought he knew something about the Warder, he discovered another layer underneath." "Any fool knows men and women think differently at times, but the biggest difference is this. Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget." Zarine- "I have no shame in admitting I will be glad enough to run from this fight. Men fight when they should run, and fools fight when they should run. But I had no need to say it twice." Ah yes, I can see it now. Jordan, while making a trip through scenic, snowy Peoria, skids off the road and crashes. A big, burly, not-too-friendly electrical engineering grad student rescues him, brings him to his apartment and nurses him back to health. ("No, Mr. Jordan, you don't want to go the hospital, or even the Bradley University Health Center. _Bad_ things happen to people there.") Months later, after being given privileged use of said EE's personal computer, the sixth book is finished. Said EE reads through draft manuscript, reaches end, and storms to Jordan, shouting: "YOU HAD HIM FIGHT ISHAMAEL AGAIN, JUST LIKE THE FIRST THREE BOOKS!" Ok, here goes. If you did not before think I need a hobby, you will now: I had a dream about dear Mr. Jordan. I was somewhere taking an art course (go figure - I am a Meteorology Grad student). I was saying to some one how much I liked the Robert Jordan books. The professor/instructor/whatever said- oh really? Well I am Robert Jordan (yes I know while awake that that is not his real name). I then began telling him about the Net, and what great speculations we have and about Da Survey. He was very interested, and asked what was on Da Survey. I said, "Oh, you know, stuff like, will Rand die, will he lose a hand, is Moiraine Black Ajah..." He interrupted me to say "You think Moiraine is Black Ajah??" in a tone that conveyed astonishment along with a certain "You moron" implication. I started to explain about the "Moiraine sent me Lord Ingtar - I did not send Verin" thing, and he said "My God, that was a *MISTAKE*!!!". Then he laughed at me... snivel snivel sniff sniff gulp gulp. Robert Jordan laughed at me in my dream... I had this *great* dream last night where I was Rand al'Thor, already a bit on the mad side, walking around and blasting hell out of the bad guys with the One Power. It was great! Something I've wanted to do for a long time. I remember vividly blasting this one guy who was being mean to a dog. -Chris Here's the scenario: Erica is all alone at her home/apt/dorm/cardboard box (whatever). Sensing a well armed criminal nearby, she quickly hides. The criminal enters her room, confused that no one is there. Having cased Erica for some time now, however, he says, "Is Verin black?" >From under the bed comes a resigned but excited, "No! She's not black!" Game over, Erica is kidnapped. The previous was a fictitious dramatization. Don't fall into the same trap yourself in real life. [Kind of like the Roger Rabbit "Pop Goes the Weasel" scene.]--Chris Russo Maybe the Green Man tree will produce seeds! Then, we'll have fresh little Nymphoes running around. Err I mean Nyms. I guess Aginor and Balthamel were Nym foes. --Chris Russo Nobody is black, They try to ungentle Logain, but he dies in the attempt. Egwene is AS after 5/6 of the Aes Sedai get killed and or collared. Lanfear gets killed by the DO in a fit of pique. AND I CAN'T TAKE ANYMORE! I SAY WE STORM THE WAREHOUSES! SEIZE THE TFOH, KILL THE ONES WHO WOULD KEEP US FROM OUR RIGHTFUL PRIZE! Is there a way to kill every article that DOESN'T have a certain word in it? Like /!Jordan/j or something? Lotsa people write about jordan PBs losing their covers: Maybe the books want to disassociate themselves from that cover art? What an unnerving experience! There are NO Jordan messages posted since yesterday!! What am I supposed to do? Not read ANYTHING in r.a.sf.w? Are you people insane? What's going on? I can't understand it! ;akjfjasdf;asdjff f;kjsf;asjf Help, Ok....ok... I'm alright..... just need a deep breath here..... let's just all calm down and go over a few things.... you know, get the conversation going. Is Verin Black? Is Moiraine Black? Will Logain be ungentled? Will Egwene be the Amyrlin? Is Lanfear good? Will Judy find a hobby? Will I keep my sanity. (KEEP?) Talk to me... please.... someone type something quickly... I'm fading fast. On a more serious note. Will Rand die and then be called back by the horn? Perrin? Mat?....[THE MESSAGE DIED OFF AT THIS POINT...ED.] Evidence that Joe Shaw is BA 1) Buddies with Liandrin 2) Has his own pet name for the Heart of the Dark 3) Tries to cover for Verin, who everybody knows is black Its conclusive. I'd be very careful if I lived out Virginia way. Don't believe Sean, everybody. He's called "Father of Lies" to a reason, ya know. Besides, I'm a Finger Lakes native, but I moved away when NY fell to the Blight.- Joe We see through your worthless smoke, friend of the dark. You hang yourself with your own tongue, traitor. The man who stripped the border forts of their guards was never captured. Joe Shaw, or should I say Jowin Fairheart, the blood of the Empire State is on your hands. Be very careful of the internet....Remember the stories of the Forsaken binding men to them? Strong men, men who had fought the Dark One from the start. Those stories are true, and none of the Forsaken had a tenth of the strength of their master. Yield even for an instant and he will have a string tied to your heart. Deny him, and his power fails. It is not easy when touching the internet, and it is too late for Joe, but it can be done. What! Darkfriends in r.a.sf.w.jordan? That's as bad as BA in the Tower! I'd as soon swallow a live silverpike! Quick! Somebody set up a "Hunters Three" party! So, anyway, what do you call a Darkfriend who uses Usenet? "Dreadposter?" Ackkk! [scribble, scribble] ooo oooooo oooooooo ooooooooo oooooooo oooooooo oooooo ooooo ooooo oo o Truly, they are everywhere --Sean, Defender of the Light Oh yeah? What about all these fangs and white cloaks we've seen lately hiding in some darkf...er peoples closets. Sean has clearly been to one too many _socials_ with his _friends_, IF you know what I mean. I mean to say, calling nice plump old ladies names like _some_ people have been doing in this group is just not on. Verin is _not_ BA! :-) (feeling slightly uneasy at the thought of having to eat my words some day...) At least I'm not a Whitecloak. Wouldn't be caught _dead_ wearing white... You know what's really scary? The fact that I can glance at, and subsequently _pronounce_ "Al'cair'rahienallen". Or the fact that I spell "Al'cair'rahienallen" without checking my sources for the spelling. And the same with Tel'aron'rhiod, and so forth...[Close on Tel'aran'rhiod, John, -10pts, Can't find the other to check it, CR :-] ===========================ADMINISTRIVIA====================================== 0.1...............................WHAT ARE THESE JORDAN WHEEL OF TIME BOOKS? The Wheel of Time, by Robert Jordan: Hardcover editions: THE EYE OF THE WORLD, ISBN 0-312-85009-3, $24.95 THE GREAT HUNT, ISBN 0-312-85140-5, $22.95 THE DRAGON REBORN, ISBN 0-312-85248-7, $22.95 THE SHADOW RISING, ISBN 0-312-85431-5, $24.95 THE FIRES OF HEAVEN, ISBN 0-312-85427-7, $25.95 Paperback editions: THE EYE OF THE WORLD, ISBN 0-812-51181-6, $5.99 ($6.99 CAN) THE GREAT HUNT, ISBN 0-812-51772-5, $5.99 ($6.99 CAN) THE DRAGON REBORN, ISBN 0-812-51371-1, $5.99 ($6.99 CAN) THE SHADOW RISING, ISBN 0-812-51373-8, $6.99 ($7.99 CAN) Published by Tor Books Ask for them at your favorite bookstore, or order the paperback editions directly from: Publishers Book and Audio Mailing Service PO Box 120159 Staten Island NY 10312-0004 To cover postage and handling, add $1.25 for the first book and $.25 for each additional book. Check or money order only; no CODs. ----- Patrick Nielsen Hayden, senior editor, Tor Books pnh@panix.com * CIS: 72701,1344 * opinions mine 0.2.................HOW DO I POST TO rec.arts.sf.written ABOUT THESE BOOKS? Make sure you put the word 'JORDAN' (upper or lower case, your choice) in the subject line so that kill files can be specialized to catch all the Jordan/Wheel of Time related posts. For example: Subject: JORDAN: Is Verin Black? Subject: JORDAN: What's with Gawyn's weird behavior? Subject: JORDAN: Why did Lanfear and Roy do that? 0.3......................................WHY DON'T WE START A NEW NEWSGROUP Judy G. says: My canned response to the above is: Not everyone gets the alt groups. I would like a group just for Jordan fans (no, not a support group), but I think it is ridiculous to do something that would preclude people who were interested from participating, just because some people don't know how to or don't want to utilize their kill files. We put Jordan in the title, so they should not have too much trouble killing them, unless of course they are stupid. The last time someone complained about the Jordan traffic, I said something to this effect, and said that the Jordan haters or non-readers should consider themselves lucky that we are considerate enough to put Jordan in the title, opposed to titling things like "Lanfear seduces Roy, who later cuts off her hand" and even more generic things like "The severed hand", which would *never* get killed. (To give the non-Jordan people credit, I got much mail saying that people do very much appreciate the "Jordan" in the title, and thanked the Jordan people in general for making their lives a little easier). There was also an attempt to start a rec group that failed miserably. The poor guy who tried to do it got flamed that he was doing it wrong, can't he read, etc., which I found annoying because the guy was trying to help the whole group out! The issue of getting the correct number of votes to start a rec group was in question (you need so many people saying yes, and so few people saying no). Anyhow, this poor guy got flamed so bad that he gave up. Another thing to consider is that a number of rec.arts.sf.written readers read this group to find out about other books that people like. I have seen a number of people mention that they read Jordan's books after seeing all the traffic on the net about them. This is another reason for keeping it in the main group. Stephen Graham adds: I wouldn't appreciate it. I may not like Jordan, but I prefer having the option of reading posts about him in this group. Splitting on an author basis weakens r.a.sf.w. Erica S. adds: I would never have discovered the books if not for the traffic on r.a.sf.w. 0.4.........................................MIS-STEPS (ERRORS ALONG THE WAY) Jeff Smith: "Egwene realized Nynaeve's blankets were empty." Unfortunately, at this particular time, Nynaeve was in Tanchico with Elayne. It should be Moraine's blankets that are empty......Correct? Don Harlow: It seems to me that early in the first volume Jordan took some time to decide whether the marsh-forest in the east of the Two Rivers was the Riverwood or the Waterwood. Damien Cole: Why does Moiraine wear her great serpent ring on her left hand in TEotW and TDR and on her right hand in TGH? I can think of four possible reasons: a) a cunning plan by Jordan to make us believe sweet, innocent Moiraine was at the Darkfriend social. b) Moiraine has an evil, identical twin sister who wears her ring on the other hand. c) It's Moiraine's ring and she can wear it on whatever hand she damn well pleases. d) none of the above. Joseph Shaw: From the glossary to TEotW, the entry for "Farstrider, Jain" says that "He vanished in 994 NE, after returning from a trip into the Great Blight which some say had taken him all the way to Shayol Ghul." The glossary to TDR for "Travels of Jaim Farstrider, the" says that he disappeared shortly after the Aiel War, which is about 20 years ago. Why the differences in spelling? Note that even in TEotW, all other indications are that Farstrider disappeared 20 years ago, just after the Aiel war: Ba'alzamon tells Rand [ch. 51] "Jain Farstrider, a hero, whom I painted like a fool and sent to the Ogier thinking he was free of me." The man that Loial said came to Stedding Shangtai telling them the story about blinding the Eye of the World came just after the Aiel War. Twould seem to be Farstrider since Ba'alzamon's comments followed a reference to the Aiel that told the story to the Tuatha'an. So, it seems that the 994 number is wrong. Since according to Loial's story, the man planned on taking the story to Tar Valon, and doesn't seem to have made it, it would imply he was dead. He was "at the point of death, though there was no wound or mark on him" and quickly got well within the stedding. Sounds like the DO's taint to me. [Don Harlow notes: However, note that in it is mentioned that Tam has a copy of _The Travels of Jain Farstrider_ (sic!) on his bookshelf.] (last para of chapter) "If only Egwene had not run into any trouble, they might make it out of here [the Panarch's Palace] safely after all." - It should be Elayne instead of Egwene. Erica Sadun: In TDR, in the beginning at-camp scene, Perrin tells Min that he loves her like a sister--and that he has no sisters of his own. In TSR, his two sisters and his brother are killed. and Morgan Donald Scott Ba'alzamon's goals: "But this time I will destroy you to your very soul, destroy you utterly and forever." Maybe he forgot "Fool, you will destroy yourself!" where he stopped Rand from burning himself out. Ba'alzamon is either forgetful, confused, or trying to appear so. Glossary entries, "Wheel of Time" : The Pattern of an Age is slightly different each time an Age comes, and each time it is subject to greater change, but each time it is the same Age. Notice that last phrase "but each time it is the same Age" appears in TGH, but is gone in TDR. Did Jordan change his mind? Did he realize he had to change something? What makes this Third Age special? Perhaps this is the only one the DO thought up the taint on Saidin. Kind of for the Prince of Darkness, since he's had a million chances. Arthur Bernard Byrne "I don't know what you're running from," he had said with an anxious frown, "and I don't want to. You understand? My family." Abruptly the farmer had dug two long scarves out of his coat pocket and pushed the tangle of wool at them. "It's not much, but here. Belong to my boys. They have others. You don't know me, understand? It's hard times." "If I was a good man," Mull said, "I'd offer a couple of lads soaked to the skin a place to dry out and get warm in front of my fire. But it's hard times, and strangers.... I don't know what you're running from, and I don't want to. You understand? My family." Suddenly he pulled two long, woolen scarves, dark and thick, out of his coat pocket. "It's not much, but here. Belong to my boys. They have others. You don't know me, understand? It's hard times." [WHILE THIS IS STILL A CONTESTED ERROR, IT WILL REMAIN IN THE FAQ. I THINK IT WAS A CUT/COPY/PASTE GOOF--Erica] Courtenay Footman A typographical error Perrin calls Tam al'Thor "Master al'Vere"; Master al'Vere being miles away at that time. George D. Phillies: There are no dots in the Aes Sedai yin/yang symbol. "A perhaps- serious error of the original seal-builders: the correct yin-yang symbol has a splotch a white in the black, and vice versa. Jordan may have forgotten this. On the other hand, the world going downhill because the female Aes Sedai channel large amounts of pure female aspect of the Force, and without knowing it traces of the tainted male aspect of the Force, is perhaps amusing." Amish S. Dave "How will this affect matters? Moiraine wondered. He is not necessary with the Horn gone, and yet...." She is referring to Mat: they are all in Fal Dara, several weeks after finding the Horn at the Eye of the World. How did she know at this point that Mat and the Horn are linked??? She seems at the same time to be planning for Rand to take the Horn to Illian, and use it himself. Is this a Jordan mis-step, or is Moiraine more cunning that I thought? 0.5.............................WHO IS KATHLEEN? WHY IS JOCELYN NOT KATHLEEN? "Kathleen is my mother, the owner of the account that I _used_ (note the past tense) to post from ! Yes! The reason why I have taken so long to reply to mail is that I've been off-line while moving to college, and now I have my very own e-mail address. From now on, no more silly .sig! No more comments directed to my mother! It'll just be: jocelyng@leland.stanford.edu! Maybe it should be in the FAQ... Maybe I have delusions of grandeur... Oh well, it takes my mind off of waiting for TFoH!" -- Jocelyn ======================USEFUL INFORMATION (SHORT ANSWERS)====================== 1.1 WHY DO WE THINK THAT LTT = BEIDOMON Who was Beidomon? Consensus: Lews Therin or Bayle Domon Dissenting Opinion: 'NO WAY a consensus. Quite a few people -me among them- think that he is either dead or one of the male forsaken. Why should Lews Therin have needed/had another name?' H. Poso Supporting Facts: From the Prolog: Dragon is he who brought the shadow; Guilt; Because the Dragon's blood is necessary to reimprison the DO. "I will tell you of the end of the Age of Legends, of the Dragon, and of his attempt to free the Dark One into the world of men." 1.2 WHY DO WE THINK THAT THOM MAY HAVE FATHERED ELAYNE AND/OR GAWYN Elayne denies that Galad is her brother. Thom was around at the right time. Thom clearly had something to do with Taringail's disappearance. Thom was in love with Morgase. 1.3 WHY DO WE THINK THAT THOM WILL MARRY MOIRAINE Moiraine says she knows the face of the man she will marry. After going through the Aelf/Eelf ter'angreal, which only answers personal questions, she immediately tells Thom that he will live through the next set of adventures. Thom keeps referring to Moiraine as a good looking woman with more and more sincerity as time progresses and discovers he no longer loves Morgase. 1.4 WHAT WAS UP WITH GAWYN DURING THE COUP Perhaps he was involuntarily bonded to a Black or to a Forsaken. His eyes were glazed and he was not necessarily in control of himself. 1.5 WHAT IS THE TAMYRLIN Probably the male equivalent of the Amyrlin. The Tamyrlin had a ring just the Amyrlin has a seat. From : Elan Morin grimaced. "Look at you," he said scornfully. "Once you stood first among the Servants. Once you wore the Ring of Tamyrlin, and sat in the High Seat. Once you summoned the Nine Rods of Dominion. Now look at you! [...] However John Novak suggests it may be the uncorrupted form of Amyrlin. 1.6 WHO WILL MARRY MAT? Daughter of the Nine Moons indicates the heir to the throne of the Seanchan. This may be Berelain or the second daughter of the Empress who is mentioned in the middle of TGH by the high lord in Falme. 1.7 WHY DO WE THINK THAT LOGAIN WILL PULL THE SWORD/BECOME UNGENTLED? Why not. 1.8 WHY WILL THE BRACELETS WILL BE USED ON LOGAIN OR MAZRIM TAIM? We assume that they will be used on a faux dragon because the real one isn't available. 1.9 WHAT DOES MAT BEING FREE OF THE ONE POWER MEAN? 1. No power in the next age. 2. No power on HIM. 1.10 WHO IS SUSA? We don't know. Only that she 'tamed Jai(m/n) Farstrider'. Perhaps Susa = Laras? "She was at one point a wild young thing...and she seems like she was someone important at one point." [Judy G.] 1.11 WHERE DO BABY MYRDDRAAL COME FROM? Throwbacks from trolloc parents. One assumes their tiny little baby diapers fail to wave in the wind. 1.12 WHY ISN'T ELAIDA BLACK? "Whatever Siuan was up to, she had to be stopped. Turmoil and chaos multiplied on every side. The Dark One was sure to break free-- the very thought made Elaida shiver and wrap her shawl around her more tightly--and the Tower had to be aloof from mundane struggles to face that. The Tower had to be free to pull the strings to make the nations stand together, free of the troubles Rand al'Thor would bring. Somehow, he had to be stopped from destroying Andor. [since Andor, and its royalty, are the key to defeating the DO.]" : Elaida doesn't like Rats. 1.13 WHAT DO WE KNOW ABOUT KARI AL'THOR Not much. 1.14 WHAT DO WE KNOW ABOUT MIN'S FAMILY Nothing. A vague reference to an uncle...perhaps Thom. I don't know why, but I keep think that she is Owyn's daughter. -- Erica S. 1.15 WHY IS ELDRENE'S VEIL PROMINENT ON THE MAP? Maybe a seal is hidden there? Maybe treasure? Treasure in the Mountains of the Mists are widely rumored which is why Faile was going to search there and why Luc stated he was in the vicinity. 1.16 WHERE ARE THE SCANTILY CLAD MAIDENS? * Rand noticed Egwene's skirt got hitched up some during a ride * Lanfear wore Rand's shirt. * Women serving Turak in tGH * Men & Women serving Suroth in tSR * Sea Folk go Topless out at sea. * Taraboners wear risque' dresses AND Domani Gals are notorious for wearin' em. * Eg, Ny, El wear rather risque' dresses themselves (Perhaps their shoulders showed) * The times Ny and Egw entered the _ter'angreal_ for their Acceptance tests. And Moiraine and Aviendha going into Rhuidean. =======================USEFUL INFORMATION (LONG ANSWERS)====================== 2.0................................................WHO'S WHO IN THE FAMILIES T R A K A N D S / A N D O R D A M O D R E D S/ (rumored to have Aiel blood) C A I R H E I N -=---------------------- +-----------=LAMAN--=BARTHANES | | | | | (cousin) | LUC* (JANDUIN) -+- TIGRAINE m TAIRINGAIL MOIRAINE | clan chief | (Daughter Heir (heir?) (half sister | of Taardad | of Andor ---+---------+ of Taringail) | | AKA SHAIEL) | | | | | | | | GALADEDRID | | RAND | | | MORGASE------------------------+--------------+ | GAWYN ** & ELAYNE** (Daughter Heir of Andor) M A L K I E R I --------------------------------------------- | | LAIN m. BREYAN allied with COWAN AL'AKIR m. EL'LEANNA | | ISAM LAN * Merges with ISAM, son of BREYAN to form SLAYER ** Possibly bastard of THOM MERRILIN, the gray fox = Exact links unknown NOTE : RAND is not up for the throne of Cairhien although Gawyn or Elayne might be NOTE : GALAD is awfully good looking. Probably RAND may be too although this is only hinted at. Also, what will happen when GALAD realizes exactly how closely related he is to the Dragon Reborn!? NOTE : Tigraine, former Daughter Heir to Andor, was Rand's mother. Many people comment during the course of the book about Rand's resemblance to her. In particular, Elayne, the Mistress of the Inn, and the Wise Women of Rhuidean. [Elayne nodded. "I think so. I do not know much of the Prophecies of the Dragon, but I have heard a few lines. One I remember is, `On the slopes of Dragonmount shall he be born, born of a maiden wedded to no man.' Egwene, Rand does look like an Aiel. Well, he looks like the pictures I have seen of Tigraine, too, but she vanished before he was born, and I hardly think she could have been his mother anyway. I think Rand's mother was a Maiden of the Spear."] 2.1.......................................................TIGRAINE, AN ANALYSIS First, here's what we know about Tigraine. She was the Daughter-Heir of Andor, and was married to Taringail Damodred. They had a son, Galadedrid ("Galad"). Tigraine and her brother Luc were sent to Tar Valon, in the usual tradition of the royalty of Andor. However, Tigraine vanished, and Luc was thought to be dead in the Blight. (We learned all this in TEotW - the only one of my TWoT books I have with me. See Chapter 34, The Last Village, and Chapter 40, The Web Tightens.) But actually, Luc didn't quite die. In TGH, he is mentioned in the Dark Prophecy which was left on the walls of the prison in Fal Dara after Padan Fain's escape. Roughly, it said "Isam waited for Luc in the high passes. One lived, and one died, but both still are." It seems that Luc's body merged with Isam's spirit, or dreamself, to become the Lord Luc/Slayer/Isam entity who appears in The Two Rivers in TSR. (Isam, you will remember, was Lan's cousin, who was captured by Trollocs.) Tigraine's disappearance set off a lot of turmoil in Andor concerning the Succession. Taringail was heavily involved; he wished to marry the next Daughter-Heir and become Prince-Consort. He got his wish (marrying Morgase), but before it was over he had gotten his uncle, King Laman of Cairhien, mixed up in it. (Thom mentions in TSR that Moiraine is Taringail's youngest sister and Laman's niece.) Laman cut down the Avendesora, or Tree of Life, to make his throne (thereafter known as "Laman's Pride" or "Laman's Sin") and thus broke the Second Covenant with the Aiel, sparking the Aiel War. Now consider what we know about Rand. Starting with Elayne and Gawyn, everyone who sees Rand mistakes him for an Aiel. Rand knows from Tam that his mother was a Maiden of the Spear. So, when his right to enter Rhuidean is challenged in TSR, he claims his mother was an Aiel. But he is corrected - actually it was his father. Then the story comes out... A noble-looking woman was accosted by some Maidens of the Spear. She introduced herself as Shaiel, and said that an Aes Sedai in Tar Valon named Gitara Moroso had Foretold that she must join the Maidens of the Spear that the world might be saved. (This is the same Gitara, incidentally, who died just after informing Moiraine and Siuan Sanche that the Dragon had been reborn.) Shaiel said she had left behind a husband and a son; for the husband she had no regret, but she was sorry about her son. Knowing that it was the wish of an Aes Sedai, the Maidens allowed Shaiel to join. She married Janduin. While she was pregnant, the Aiel War broke out, and against tradition, Janduin let Shaiel join the other Maidens of the Spear in scaling the Dragonmount. She died there, but not before giving birth to Rand, who was carried off by Tam al'Thor. The grief-stricken Janduin gave up the clan-chieftainship of the Taardad Aiel, and was later killed in the Blight, by a man who looked so like Shaiel that Janduin did not even try to defend himself. Now we put the facts together. Shaiel had come from Tar Valon, where Tigraine vanished from. Shaiel had left behind a husband whom she wasn't particularly fond of, and a beloved son. Tigraine left behind Taringail and Galad; nobody liked Taringail, but Galad was well thought-of. Janduin was murdered by a man who looked like Shaiel, in the Blight; Tigraine's brother Luc was transmogrified into Slayer, in the Blight. The timing also matches up; Tigraine's disappearance eventually led to the Aiel War, in which the pregnant Shaiel died. Here's the clincher. As we know, Rand's father was Aiel, but his mother was not. Yet the Wise Ones say that Rand looks like his mother. On the other hand, everyone else says that Rand looks Aiel. So we can conclude that Rand's mother looked Aiel, even though she wasn't. Who looks Aiel besides Aiel? Well... In TGH, Lord Barthanes speculated on who Rand might really be. He noted that Rand looked like an Aiel; then he said "The Andoran royal line have almost Aiel coloring in their eyes and hair." (He mused that Gawyn was about Rand's age...) Rand, completely fed up, replied: "I am not Aiel, ...and I am not of the Andoran royal line." If you had any doubts, they should be gone now :-) :-) :-). Ruchira Datta datta@math.berkeley.edu 2.2..................................................................SLAYER Q: Who is Slayer? What was he up to? I was utterly confused with the Slayer concept the first time I read the series, but when I went back to pull everything together (and to keep me from going mad waiting for the fifth book) everything came clear. Basically, here's what you need to know: Luc was Tigraine's brother. When she disappeared, he went wandering and was lost in the Blight. Isam is Lan's cousin. Isam's parents were, essentially darkfriends. (His father was, explicitly, a Darkfriend, and his mother may have been. I'm not sure.) Isam and Lan were infants when Malkier fell, and of Isam, we know that his mother was ridden down by Trollocs as she fled south with him. Everyone assumed they both died. I have my doubts, if Breyan (Isam's mother) was a darkfriend. Now, go back and check the Dark Prophecy for mention of the two. They're mentioned together. It is said that Isam ambushed Luc in the high passes near the Mountains of Dhoom, that one lived, one died, but both are. _Now_, go reread everything about Slayer and Luc in TSR. You'll see that Slayer, in the world of dreams, had a very _very_ close resemblance to Lan. Like, maybe, could be, cousins...? You'll also notice that when Perrin shot Slayer in the World of Dreams, Luc was the one physically hurt in the real world. Draw your own conclusions from there. John S. Novak, III darknite@camelot.bradley.edu darknite@cegt201.bradley.edu 2.3.....................................................THE SEVERED HAND Here is my theory about the severed hand... I predict that Elayne will be captured and leashed by the Seanchan. They catch Rand also, but may or may not know that he is the DR. Remember in TGH where Suroth tells the recently leashed Egwene that sometimes, for fun, (when the Seanchan are bored and nothing is on TV) they put the bracelet end of the leash around the man, thus leashing him to the damane. Sometimes nothing happens, sometimes they both die screaming. So I propose that they do this little trick to Rand and Elayne. I also think that whether nothing happens or not, or whether they both die screaming has to do with the ability of the man to channel (or learn to channel). So if they put the regular leash - not the sad bracelets - on those 2, they both start to die screaming. Someone there with a calm mind chops off Rand's hand to stop the dying (can't chop off Elayne's head, whatever Rahvin thinks). Thus the bloody hand Min sees around Rand, and the severed hand (not her own) that Min sees around Elayne. Also around these 2 Min sees images of white hot/red hot irons. My husband suggested that these might be used to cauterize the wounds. Also recall that with the sad bracelets, the collar would go on Rand, so that would not have any thing to do with him losing his hand. Unless the foreshadowed hand refers to someone else's hand in which case my prediction would be wrong. Judy G. Dissenting Opinion: RJ is going to have to do some fancy writing to get me to accept the Seanchan being able to force Rand to wear the bracelet on an A'dam attached to Elayne. I can see them somehow sneaking up on Elayne, shielding her from the source, and slapping a collar around her neck. Share with me your rationalization as to how (in the first place) the Seanchan could capture Rand, and (in the second place) (if in the first place they shield Rand) why they don't just "do him" (as it were). John C. Hansen Another View On It: [IMHO] is my idea on the "Severed Hand" with Elayne. I like the idea of her capture by the Seanchan; that makes sense. However, putting Rand in the fix does not. I propose the other logical candidate as being Thom Merrilin. It has been suggested that the ability to channel is genetic, and we know he had a nephew who could channel. Further, there is some question as to whether Elayne is in fact his daughter. Thus, he may have two relatives who have the Power. As a further guess, to compound the bloody court: Elayne is caught and leashed; Thom is made to hold the leash, and starts screaming. Matrim, thinking fast, draws a blade in the presence of the Empress of the Nine Moons, and cuts off Thom's hand. For this crime, he is made to forfeit his eye. Arthur Byrne 2.4......................................................HOW OLD IS EVERYONE? >From the Aiel War ended in 978; it must have been winter because there was snow in Rand's birth in the winter of 978. Under False Dragons we see that Logain was active in 997, and we know it was spring. So RAND was a bit over 18 at the start of the series. I'd estimate that it is currently the start of the summer of the second year from the start of the series, so subtracting the four months he lost from Portal Stone hopping and he is right on 19 currently. EGWENE is two years younger than Rand, so started about 16 as you say. ELAYNE is about the same age as Egwene. MIN I peg as about 25, the definite is she has some years on Rand. GAWYN is about Rand's age. GALAD: Tigraine disappeared in 972 when he was an infant. Puts him at 25 NYNAEVE has a few years on Rand, probably about 23 MOIRAINE was Accepted (and about to be raised Aes Sedai) at the end of the Aiel War. Age approx. 25 (older Accepted Age) + 18 = low forties LAN was an infant when Malkier fell. I don't think we have a date on that, but he has a couple years on Moiraine I believe, mid forties. FARSTRIDER, since people seem to think he may be a character we've met, is referred to as 'young, but already a traveler' when Malkier fell. So he would be mid sixties if still lurking. LIANDRIN is referred to as young, not just young seeming as are all Aes Sedai, about 25. ELAIDA has about 5 years (was one of the Accepted who watched over her when she was a Novice) on Moiraine, late forties-early fifties. MOGHEDIEN, she claims she was a couple centuries, and young for Aes Sedai, when bound. --SEH 2.5...................................................WHAT DOES EACH AJAH DO? [Aes Sedai may be translated as 'Servant to All' although they were called at times 'Servants of the Light'] Color Purpose ======================================================= Blue Meddle in causes Red Prevent another Breaking (i.e., hunt down men who can channel) White Philosophers -"Consider the questions of truth with implacable logic" Green The Battle Ajah - "love men" Brown Seekers of knowledge, librarians Yellow Healers Gray Arbitrators/Mediators. Black Do ya' really need to ask? ===================================== WHAT DO RED AJAH MEMBERS REALLY WANT? ===================================== [Bain explains] "...Chiad and I felt our wedding pledge was not enough. We went to speak the words before the Wise Ones of our Clans--she risking her life in my hold, and I in hers--to bond us as First Sisters. As is proper for First Sisters who are maidens we guard each others backs, and neither will let a man come to her without the other. I would not say we do not care for men." Chiad nodded, with just a hint of smile... [Egwene thinks in response:] Not Red Ajah. Green, maybe. A cross between Warders and Green Ajah, and I do not understand another thing about out of that. DISCUSSION: Egwene's first thoughts had been Red Ajah. Clearly, the Ajah which does not like men (and often hates them) would provide a refuge for extremist lesbians. (Such as Elaida?) I think that the Red Ajah has a reputation for this. They do not treat men gently (pun intended) in this Ajah. We never did settle this point, but I think this passage lends weight to the argument that the Reds to have a tendency towards sapphic love in addition to a perpetual problem with pms. Similarly in the Green Ajah, women who collect more than one man may have a reputation of, well, group relationships. I believe that Egwene is thinking that instead of one Green-Aes + many-Warders you would instead have many-Maidens with one Man. (probably Gaul!) I can't wait until Gaul realizes that he may have more than he can handle on his hands! 2.6................................................THE GREEN MAN AND THE SONG (tinkers, soldiers, warriors, dragon) Q: WHO IS THE GREEN MAN? A: He is the last of the Nym, a type of creature which was made apparently of vegetable matter. He is described first in . However we find out exactly who he is in the fourth book. "A stir at the end of the field told him one of the Nym was approaching. The great form, head and shoulders and chest taller than any Ogier, stepped out onto the seeded ground, and Coumin did not have to see to know he left footprints filled with sprouting things. It was Someshta, surrounded by clouds of butterflies, white and yellow and blue...Each field would have its Nym, now...the Nym were older than anyone. Some said the Nym never died, not so long as plants grew..." Many years later, after the breaking, we see him again, this time with the characteristic fissure in his face. He will not be set to the task of guarding the eye of the world, the horn, the dragon banner and one of the seals. "Someshta sat against the wall near the door, a great shape seemingly woven of vines and leaves...A fissure of withered brown and charred black ran up the Nym's face and furrowed the green grass of his hair...Most of the Nym were dead, he had heard" "'The sword must wait. Someshta, we have a task for the last of the Nym, if you will do it....'" says Solinda Sedai. Q: WHAT IS THE SONG? The Tinkers, an early offshoot of the Aiel, decided to give up their duty of hiding xxx-angreal and instead dedicate their lives to refinding the safety and peace of their past. "'No, Adan. We are supposed to find a place of safety...My grandfather used to tell me stories he heard as a boy, stories of when we lived in safety and people came to hear us sing. We mean to find a place where we can be safe, and sing again.' 'Sing?' Adan scoffed. '...you know those old songs no more than I do. The songs are gone, and the old days are gone. We will not give up our duty to the Aes Sedai to chase after what is lost forever.'...'We mean to find that safe place. And the songs too.' What song are they talking about? The scene above in which Someshta is going through the fields continues like this: "The ogier began it, as was fitting, standing to sing, great bass rumbles like the earth singing. The Aiel rose, men's voices lifting in their own song, even the deepest at a higher pitch than the Ogier's Yet the songs braided together, and Someshta took those threads and wove them into his dance...The song caught him up, and he almost felt that it was himself, not the sounds he made that Someshta wove into the soil and around the seeds." Indeed, LTT, lost in time and his mind, invites Ishamael as follows: "Ah, a guest. Have you the Voice, stranger? It will soon be time for the Singing, and here all are welcome to take part." The Voice is indeed a talent. confirms: "The Talent was fading, Loial said; he was one of the few who had the ability, now". Loial demonstrates his talent both by singing wood in the alter-reality of TGH and to bring the tree back to life at the end of TEotW. "Rand could not say if there were words or if it were pure song. In that rumbling voice it was as if the earth sang, yet he was sure he heard the birds trilling again, and spring breezes sighing softly and the sound of butterfly wings. Lost in the song, he thought it lasted only minutes, but when Loial lowered his arms and opened his eyes, he was surprised to see the sun stood well above the horizon." We can certainly add the Voice to the list of non-one-power talents of Min's seeing the wheel, being a Wolf-Brother, Ta'veren and seeing Ta'veren. Carl Traber adds: Q: WHO WILL FIND THE SONG? The primary contenders are Aram, Perrin and Rand. Aram, as you probably know is a Tinker. His stated life goal had been to find the song until he took up the sword in defense of Emond's Field and became 'Lost' to his people. To find the song would reinstate him and justify his choice of giving up the peaceful 'way of the leaf'. Perrin on the other hand keeps getting faced with the choice of ax or hammer: that is, the choice of creation or destruction, war or peace, way-of-the-warrior or way-of-the-leaf. Rand, is the outlier and remains one of the contenders primarily because of the following quote. He alone has demonstrated any predilection towards the talent of the Voice. "Rand was not sure what it was Loial did, or how; soft as the song was, it caught him up hypnotically, filling his mind almost the way the void did..Rand opened his mouth, but the song quieted him. It seemed so familiar, that song, as if he should know it. " Remember as well that adult male Aiel do NOT sing anything but battle dirges. This may be a convenient plot device to ensure that they have bred true for the Voice! Further Evidence that Rand will find the song: ages past and will be in ages to come. _Let the Prince of the Morning sing to the land that green things will grow_ and the valleys give forth lambs. Dash Wendrzyk adds: [Why would] the Ogier would have forgotten that the humans had a part and what is was? If they didn't, wouldn't the first meeting between Tinkers and Ogier have gone something like this: Tinker: Do you know the song? Ogier: What, the song that your ancestors used to sing with grandfather? Tinker: Yeah, that song! Ogier: Nope, never heard of it. For my recollection of Perrin's talk with Elyas, it seemed that the Tinker's didn't just not know the words, but didn't know the song that they were looking for. BTW, My guess for the person finding The Song is some Aiel Chieftain (Rand included), since they actually heard their ancestors singing The Song. Chris Russo adds: What if some Tinker actually went into those columns in Rhuidean? A Tinker with a reason to look for redemption? One that has, say, taken up a sword? [Wouldn't that be cool? - Erica] Counter evidence for Perrin: Perrin is a contender to find the song because of Min's viewing of Perrin standing among the flowering trees. Joe Shaw adds (perhaps ironic forshadowing): "Not Perrin, of course, he had been told often enough that he sounds like a stepped-on frog, singing." Survey says: Who will discover the Song? 04 - Perrin 05 - Loial 07 - Aram 03 - Elyas 04 - other 03 - a group 03 - Rand 05 - No one Survey says: Will Perrin pick the ax or the hammer (whatever that means)? Ax 07 Hammer 25 Both 01 Undecided 01 Q: WHO WERE THE AIEL? The Aiel (formerly the Da'shain Aiel) were the 'Dedicated' who worked for the Servants of All/Servants of Light (Aes Sedai). The group was hereditary and had feature of light skin, gray or blue eyes and mostly reddish or blond hair. All Aiel could be identified by their particular hair style which was cut short with a tail hanging in the back. They were dedicated to a life of non-violence, following the 'way of the leaf'. That is, accepting death and life as it came in a completely passive approach. The male Aiel worked with the Ogier and the Nym in planting as they had the gift of the 'Voice', the seed singing. Although the Ogier continue to have 'tree singers', the voice of the Aiel seems to be a talent that has disappeared. When the Aiel did their work in the fields, they wore light gray and brown 'working clothes' (_cadin'sor_). The clothes, the hair style and the avoidance of the use of weaponry which cannot be used for other purposes remains today, but the talent of the Voice is currently unknown. 2.7.....................................................WHAT'S WITH NYNAEVE? >From Joseph Shaw and S. Hillyard: Main reference: Too much relevant material to quote here. Sorry... (Besides, I don't feel like typing in four pages! :-) SPECULATION: Can AS/Forsaken sense Nynaeve's ability to channel when Nynaeve is calm.? 1. Nynaeve cannot channel unless she is angry. 2. Nynaeve cannot even sense other AS channeling, at least when she is calm. (i.e., she cannot see the glow surrounding other women when they are channeling) 3. Moiraine has sensed Nynaeve's ability to channel at least twice (Their first meeting in Emond's Field, and the morning after Shadar Logoth.) 4. Each time Moiraine has sensed Nynaeve by her ability to channel, it took her a few minutes to realize it both times. 5. Moghedien sensed Nynaeve. 6. The Windfinder did also. JOE CLAIMS: No, AS/Forsaken *cannot* sense Nynaeve when she is calm. >From points 1 and 2, it would seem that Nynaeve has built up 'walls' to protect herself from the OP when she learned to channel as a 'Wilder' [1] - walls that come down when she becomes angry. These walls also have the effect of shielding her from being sensed by other women who can channel, since Nynaeve cannot channel when those walls are in place. Point 4 explains point 3 if you consider that Nynaeve was angry each time Moiraine sensed her ability to channel. After Shadar Logoth, Nynaeve was mad at Moiraine for dragging Emond's Fielders into her "filthy Aes Sedai plots", and in Emond's Field because some 'outsider' was addressing her, The Wisdom, as a "child". Even though Moiraine suspected that the Wisdom could channel from the stories of her "miracle cures" and her amazing ability to listen to the wind, Moiraine herself says that even looking for a young wisdom she was expecting someone half again Nynaeve's age. Moiraine passes off Shadar Logoth as carelessness from worrying too much about the boys, but Moiraine being careless twice is out of character. CLAIM: Yes, AS/Forsaken *can* sense Nynaeve when she is calm. Points 1 and 2 may handicap Nynaeve, but do not affect other's ability to sense her. Point four was just Moiraine not immediately seeing what she wasn't expecting. When Moiraine senses Nynaeve after Shadar Logoth, Jordan never actually says that Nynaeve is angry until *after* Moiraine senses her. >From , just after Nynaeve leaves the Panarch's bedchamber while 'need-searching' in _tel'aran'rhiod_ "Surely Temaile could not have been aware of her long enough to sense she could channel; even when she could not do it, the ability was there to be felt by one who shared it." This either completely solves the debate, or is meant to be taken as Nynaeve's point of view on the subject - she has no reason to believe it may not be true. [1] Verin's description of Nynaeve's problem: "Wilders have difficulties, it is true. Almost always they have built up walls to keep themselves from knowing what it is they were doing, and those walls interfere with conscious control. The longer those walls have to build, the harder it is to tear them down, but if they can be demolished - ..." S.H. Replies: You may be able to chalk up all these times to Nynaeve's being angry, but I think the odds are very low. Daniel John Kelly-Harrity adds: Actually, this is untrue. Recall in the very first book where Nynaeve was sneaking up on Moiraine and Lan the day after the debacle in Aridhol (Shadar Logoth)... Neither Lan nor Moiraine heard or saw her coming up on them; the only reason Moiraine knew was, as she later stated, that she sensed the presence of another woman who could channel. Aes Sedai can not be with the presence of another woman who can channel without "knowing her for what she is". For that matter, they know it when a young girl is "nearing her change" (meaning, approaching her first encounter with the One Power). 2.8....................................................COUNTRIES OF RAND-LAND Sean Hillyard starts the Countries of RandLand faq. Help fill it out! hillyard@msc.cornell.edu. Thanks especially to Pam Korda. >Andor< General: Capital city, Caemlyn. Oldest city-state in RandLand, established not long after the breaking, with Queen of Andor the oldest title in RandLand. Unique traditions of sending the heir and expected first prince to train in the White Tower, and having an open Aes Sedai advisor. Rulers: Matriarchy, with a male advisor and head of the army called the First Prince of the Sword. Ruled for the last twenty years by Queen Morgase of House Trakand. Heir to the throne (Daughter-heir), Elayne. Current events: Currently being overrun by refuges from neighboring Carbine. Likely abode of the Forsaken Rahvin (Lord Gaebril). Extreme western provinces having troubles with Trollocs and Whitecloaks, and showing a disturbing streak of self governance. Symbol: White lion on a red field Home of: Morgase, Elayne, Gawyn, Galad, Gareth Bryne, "Lord Gaebril," Tigraine/Shaiel, Lord Luc Tourist Attractions: Palace gardens, reached by climbing Palace wall. Map: (partial) >Malkier< General: _Was_ one of the borderlands, located N of Shienar. Destroyed due to treachery of the last king's sister-in-law (Breyan) and Cowin Fairheart (Great Lord & Darkfriend). Symbol: golden crane. Gov't: Monarchy. Last king--al'Akir Mandragoran. Uncrowned heir-- al'Lan Mandragoran. Current Events--Doesn't exist anymore, has been swallowed up by the Blight Tourist Attractions: Ruins of the Seven Towers, the 1000 Lakes Home of: Lan, Isam, Jain(m) Farstrider Map: (with Shienar) >Shienar< General: Capital city--Fal Moran. Due to its location (borderlands),its society has a strong militaristic streak. Quaint local fashion--fighting men shave their heads, except for a topknot. Symbol--black hawk Gov't: Monarchy, current king--Easar of house Togita Current events: Held off trolloc hoard at Tarwin's Gap (with a little help from their friends) Tourist Attractions: Lotsa military stuff, nice signal towers Home of: Ingtar, Lord Agelmar, Lady Amalisa, Uno, Masema, Hurin Map: >Two Rivers< General: Collection of farming communities bounded by the Mountains of Mist, the R. Taren, and the White River. Products--tabac & wool. The people have a reputation of stubbornness. Quaint local fashion--girls wear their hair loose, women wear it braided. Gov't: Although it is officially part of Andor, it "has not seen a tax collector in six generations, nor the Queen's Guards in seven." Each autonomous village is run by two elected bodies--the Women's Circle (women), headed by the Wisdom, and the Village Council (men), headed by the Mayor. If there is a need for inter-village action, it is negotiated by the mayors or Councils of the villages Current events: Hunting ground of Slayer (aka Lord Luc). Overrun by Trollocs & Whitecloaks as part of Ordeith's plot against Rand. Trollocs & Whitecloaks alike dealt with under the leadership of Perrin, who may be on his way to becoming "lord" of the Two Rivers, by popular demand. Improvised symbol: Wolf's Head. Tourist Attractions: Eldrene's Veil, Master al'Vere's clock Home of: do ya have to ask? Map: Historical Note: In ancient times was Manetheren, destroyed in the Trolloc Wars. Sign of Manetheren: Red Eagle 2.9..........................................VERIN & MOIRAINE: BLACK OR NOT VERIN: BLACK OR NOT? S Hillyard & friends point out: Told Perrin, etc. that she was sent by Moiraine. Moiraine says no. Is secretive. Has her own agendas. *1 Verin can sense male channeling. *2 Is very knowledgeable about the prophecies. *3 Has channeled in a stedding. *4 Says: 'Don't trust Alanna'. *5 The dream ring incident where she does not give the notes to Egwene nor warn her about... something. *6 Misleads Perrin as to why she is in the Two Rivers. Knows perfectly well who Lord Luc is but neglects to fill in anyone else. Recognizes the war cry Isam and ditto. Judy Ghirardelli adds: Perrin asks why she is in the Two Rivers, she responds by "would you like some tea??" or some such non-answer. He asks again, and she says she will get to his answer. She then says something like "The Two Rivers is of interest because it produces girls who are strong in the Power" or something like that. She implies (IMO) that they are there specifically to find girls who can channel, and just happen to get caught up in the struggle. I think she was lying (in spirit, but not in letter). So why did she really go there, and why did she mislead Perrin? [Also], she knows the "Blood Calls Blood" prophecy, so she knows Luc is mentioned. She also knows Luc is the missing Lord Luc, Tigraine's brother who disappeared in the Blight. She knows he is mentioned in Dark Prophecy, yet she does not warn anyone about him? Or tell them who he is? Or say, "Lord Luc, thank the Light, you are alive!!" Seemed strange to me. S. Hillyard explains the starred points listed above. *1 a) Verin is not red and is very old so it is unlikely that she was among the group that captured Logain (and so directly battled him), yet she was able to gauge his abilities very accurately. b) Before 'the five ride forth' she informs the group that she can't be among them because damane would certainly sense a woman channeling, and by the way they may sense a man channeling also. c) Verin sees Rand for the first time and comments to Siuan and Moiraine: 'he is strong, much stronger than I expected. We may have to gentle him after all before...' d) shows that she knows sensing male channeling is possible, even though it seems a very rare ability and so is not likely common knowledge. a) and c) show her rating a male channelers strength at a glance, just as we've seen women do for other women. [John Hansen rebuts: Remember that at the time of their arrival at Toman Head, no one else knew that Rand could channel. Verin said what she said to warn Rand without suggesting openly that _He_ could channel. i.e., she couldn't say, "Do not channel, Rand, you might get caught and killed..." but if she says (whether it was true or not) "the Damane may be able to sense me channeling so I can't go and oh by the way they may also be able to sense men channeling as well" then Rand knows to be careful and no one suspects his ability.] *2 Only three characters have referred to Perrin's choice of hammer or ax: Ishamael, Lanfear and Verin. *3 When examining the Ogier who lost his mind in the Way's she channels while still in the stedding. Most likely a Jordan error, but with Verin you never know. "He did not move as she laid her hands on his wide chest, not even a flicker of an eye to acknowledge her touch. With a sharp hiss, she jerked back, staring up at him, then whirled to face the Elders. 'He is....empty. This body lives, but there is nothing inside it. Nothing.'" Like I said, this is totally consistent with using the Power to delve for injury, which Aes Sedai do with a touch. Why did she jerk back so sharply if she was just physically examining him? And that's a pretty final pronouncement from a physical exam. *4 "Watch yourself with Alanna, Perrin." "What?" The Aes Sedai's quick changes of topic were beginning to confuse him. Especially when she started telling him what he had already thought of, and thought to keep secret from her. "Why?" Verin's face did not change, but her dark eyes were suddenly bird bright and sharp. "There are many...designs in the White Tower. Not all are malignant, by far, but sometimes it is difficult to say until it is too late. And even the most benevolent often allow for a few thread snapped in the weaving, a few reeds broken and discarded in making a basket. A ta'veren would make a useful reed in any number of possible plans." Just as suddenly she was looking a little confused by the bustle around her, more at home in a book, or in her own thoughts than in the real world. [...] *5 Verin does not give Corianin's notes to Egwene along with the dream ring. Relevant passages: Page upon page, covered with a precise hand, the black ink barely faded after nearly five hundred years. Corianin Nedeal's notes, everything she had learned in fifty years of studying that particular ter'angreal. A secretive woman, Corianin. She had kept by far the greater part of her knowledge from everyone, trusting it only to these pages. Only chance and a habit of rummaging through old papers in the library had led Verin to them. As far as she could discover, no Aes Sedai besides herself knew of the ter'angreal; Corianin had managed to erase its existence from the records. Once again she considered burning the manuscript, just as she had considered giving it to Egwene. But destroying knowledge, any knowledge, was anathema to her. And for the other...._No. It is best by far to leave things as they are. What will happen, will happen._ She let the lid drop shut. _Now where did I put that page?_ [Mike Lemon rebuts: I can think of three reasons that Verin wouldn't want to show the manuscript to Egwene: 1) Verin is afraid that Egwene would not continue if she knew how dangerous it is. 2) Verin is afraid that Egwene would not continue if she knew who or what must be sacrificed. 3) The very nature of prophecy requires that it be vague or kept secret. For example, if you were a fortune teller and a man came to you before a trip to Las Vegas and you looked into your crystal ball and saw that he was going to win a million dollars, you could not tell him that. If you said nothing, the man would make safe bets and gradually win his money. If you told him he will win a million dollars, he might start out by betting everything on one spin of the wheel and lose everything.] [Egwene]What if Verin was Black Ajah herself? She gave herself a shake. She had traveled all the way from Toman Head to Tar Valon with Verin, and she refused to believe this plump scholar could be a Darkfriend. "I trust you, Verin Sedai." _Can I, really?_ The Aes Sedai blinked at her again, then dismissed whatever thought had come to her with a shake of her head. [...] *6 "Moiraine Sedai sent me, Lord Ingtar," Verin announced with a satisfied smile. "She though you might need me." "I did not send Verin." Moiraine frowned. "She did that on her own. You are of interest to a great many people, Rand. You can't get a much clearer contradiction than that. So either one of the two lied, a violation of the oaths, or Verin was fooled by someone masquerading as Moiraine. To me, Moiraine lying (from everything else we've seen Moiraine is bound by the oaths. If she were free of them I think she would have done a few things differently.) and Verin's getting fooled (I think only a Forsaken could have managed it, and what Forsaken would have wanted her with Rand; if she is not black, that is.) are unlikely. So, is she black? Yes. While testing the dream ring she comes upon Ishamael and is ensnared. She attends the social (where she finds out about Rand. She also learns about Perrin choosing the ax or hammer from Ishamael at some point) and gets her orders: To be one of the group going to Fal Dara and get herself into the confidence of Moiraine, which she does in a risky maneuver. On the return trip she is ordered to watch Rand, so she runs off to find him; leaving her warder behind and making up the Moiraine story when she does locate the party. After Toman Head she is not to kill Mat yet, but to take him back to the Tower and keep an eye on him (one of Perrin's dreams shows Ishamael very upset at Mat's escape from the Tower.). She gives Egwene the dream ring without instructions hoping she'll bump into Ishamael and get caught. She had considered destroying the notes because they contain proof that she is black, but can't bring herself to do so. She then is ordered to the Two Rivers along with Isam (separate orders, they don't know each other), where she meets Perrin. Noticing Perrin doesn't trust her she tries to misdirect him with a warning about Alanna. No. She is just very interested in ta'veren and the prophecies, and very knowledgeable. This has allowed her to deduce things from the clues available to her, and she has even figured out how to break the oath rod oaths. She didn't give the dream ring instructions to Egwene because Corianin was black and she was afraid of Egwene's reaction, although after Egwene said she trusted her she nearly had a change of heart and decided to give them to her anyway. Two more pieces of evidence brought to my attention by Emma Pease. The Draghkar attack: Executed at least with Aes Sedai help (the warding on them so they couldn't be sensed). So, Moiraine seemed to think that pretty much everyone in the Tower had forgotten about these old hermit women Aes Sedai. However, we do know one individual old enough to remember them who could have ordered the attack. Need I say who? Barthanes execution: He was killed by something that ripped him apart and left his head on a stake. Sounds like the work of Trollocs or a Fade to me. Who could have ordered it? Well, a certain someone was deep in conversation with Barthanes during the party (waving away Rand when he tried to approach her), perhaps she heard something she didn't like. [John Hansen rebuts: Come now. This was because he failed Ish and didn't do what he was ordered to do at the Social. Fain made Barthanes disobey Ish and Ish killed Barthanes for his disobedience.] MOIRAINE: BLACK OR NOT? Disappeared during the Darkfriend social. Uses balefire--for which she can be stilled. She claims it is lost knowledge. How did she find it? Judy G. points out that she CAN'T be black because we have been inside of her thoughts. "I have been thinking once more about Moiraine and is she or isn't she. I started the thread and concluded that I thought she was a double agent. My biggest problem with her is that she was conveniently absent during the time of the Darkfriend Social, and there were 2 Black Ajah there, so it could have been her. I know there are other possible explanations for her whereabouts. I have decided that, Black or not, double agent spook or not, I do not think she could have been at the Social. I think this because : In TDR, when the Gray Men (6 of them) go after Perrin, she is quite surprised. After blasting the Darkhounds with Balefire, she tells Perrin that she had been stupid to not realize that they (he and Mat) are very important also. She says she should have realized that finding 3 ta'veren all the same age in the same village was more than coincidence. So, had she been at the Social, she would have *seen* all of their images, and would have *known* that Ba'alzamon/Ish thought they were *all* important, not just Rand. Therefore, they were all in danger. Had she been there, she would not have been so surprised that the Gray men were after him, and she would not have just then realized that they were all important. Also, notice in TGH how Liandrin wants all of the boys found and brought to her - not just Rand. This indicates to me that she *was* at the Social and saw all of their faces. *She* knows they are all important, more than Moiraine does at the moment. [We *know* Liandrin was at the Darkfriend Social. She mentioned being there when talking to Jaichim Carridin aka Bors in Tanchico