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<font face="Courier New, Courier, monospace">sf-lug has had only one
mailman list server, <br>
yours. Prior to your offer, we used email <br>
with lots of CCs. <br>
<br>
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/28/20 2:12 PM, Rick Moen wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:20200428211226.GA4529@linuxmafia.com">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Quoting Jim Stockford (<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jim@well.com">jim@well.com</a>):
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">you are mistaken. I did not ask Ian
for advice, he volunteered it.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
OK, I stand corrected. Also, as I said the other day, I appreciate
Ian's time and effort. (Although, to be picky: Really? Trusting some
third-party Web CGI's word for it that linuxmafia.com's DNS wasn't
publishing a DMARC record, instead of just issuing a simple and obvious
'dig' query that would reveal that there was indeed such a record, just
one that was deliberately a statement of pointed non-confidence in DMARC
and that explained why this was so?)
Meanwhile, since you've been supposedly the listadmin for fifteen years,
it would be good if you learn a little about how to do that. Maybe
I'm missing something, but I've yet to see you figuring out
Mailman or learning anything about modern SMTP operations.
All I see is tasking others. I don't know about you, but I'm overloaded
with things I need to take care of, and I really didn't need to spend a
lot of time going over the Yahoo-caused DMARC problem, especially when I
have low confidence that you even paid attention.
Also, since I figure you now owe me for chewing up a bunch more of my
time: What the heck happened in 2005 to SF-LUG's mailing list server?
What was the nature of the failure, and how did it cause 100% loss of
the mailing list archive and membership roster?
I've asked this a number of times, and I don't think it appropriate for
you to keep ignoring the question, given that I pulled your ass out of
the fire and have been filling in for fifteen years.
I
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">forwarded his email to both you and
Michael and not to the list, figuring
you would know what to do.
On 4/28/20 12:51 AM, Rick Moen wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">[Dropping Ian Sidle <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ian@iansidle.com"><ian@iansidle.com></a> from CC.]
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">According to the help article, it looks like it is asking for for
these four things
</pre>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">[...]
Jim, I wish to point out, after all of that additional run-around,
the problem remains and will continue to do so -- for _the very reason_
I already explained to you around 2pm today.
The problem, to restate, is that Yahoo's SMTP sending domains implement
an overly aggressive DMARC policy that is mailing-list hostile. This
is a known, even notorious, problem. Yahoo broke mailing list because,
when they forward mail from yahoo.com (or yahoo.co.in, etc.) subscribers
through the mailing lists to subscriber sites that check DMARC
validation (specifically because the DKIM crypto checksum no longer
checks out), the retransmitted mail fails DKIM (if the receiving sites
check and honour published DKIM/DMARC policies). Period. Both Mailman
and every other mailing list manager package have had to adopt kludge
workarounds to try to mitigate this problem that Yahoo created, e.g.,
the one selectable in _recent_ Mailman versions that munges the From:
header on mail from domains with aggressive DMARC policies.
I told you that I cannot implement that kludge with my current, rather
lagging version of Mailman. The ugly workaround isn't there. It's
offered only in very recent versions.
I said to you that _this_ is the fundamental reason postings from
yahoo.com (etc.)-based subscribers raise the bounce scores of
subscribers whose domains check & enforce DMARC (as does, for example,
GMail). Their DMARC policy claims that yahoo.com mail reflected through
a mailing list should then be rejected as a forgery (because the DKIM
signature no longer validates).
Yet, you then went and asked Ian Sidle, anyway. Because why? Because
you decided I didn't know what I was talking about?
I didn't get around to covering this bit. Question of probable
interest: What caused about a dozen <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:sf-lug@linuxmafia.com">sf-lug@linuxmafia.com</a> subscribers
to all get their subscription delivery disabled all at once?
Answer: The record suggests the triggering event was this posting on
Sunday at 3:51pm from subscriber <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jstrazza@yahoo.com">jstrazza@yahoo.com</a> :
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://linuxmafia.com/pipermail/sf-lug/2020q2/014734.html">http://linuxmafia.com/pipermail/sf-lug/2020q2/014734.html</a>
(John, you didn't do anything wrong, and are basically yet another
victim of Yahoo's malfeasance.)
Soon after Mailman processed and sent out retransmitted copies of that
posting to the 272 subscribers, all of the receiving sites that check &
enforced DKIM/DMARC SMTP error code 55x-rejected the retransmitted
subscriber copies on grounds of (alleged) SMTP forgery. Each 55x
rejection got logged at linuxmafia.com and reported by the SMTP software
to Mailman -- which incremented the intended recipient's bounce score by
1.0.
Mailman is configured to disable a subscriber's delivery if bounce score
reaches 5.0. Any time 7 days pass without a bounce, Mailman resets the
subscriber's bounce score to zero. Once delivery has been disabled,
Mailman tries to get the subscriber's attention about this situation
three times, once a week, saying please visit [URL] if you wish to
re-enable delivery. After three weeks, if that doesn't get fixed or the
listadmin hasn't intervened, the member gets unsubcribed. (All of these
numbers are adjustable by the listadmin.)
So, long story short, at the time John sent his message on Sunday
afternoon, about a dozen members already had cumulative 4.0 bounce
scores, probably on account of ISP rejection of prior postings from
subscribers at domains with overly aggressive DMARC policies. John's
posting tipped them over the 5.0 threshold. The next time Mailman ran
its cron jobs, it noticed and sent us listadmins about a dozen 'this
subscriber's delivery has been disabled because of excess bounces'
notices.
I don't mind explaining, but:
(1) You've supposedly been the <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:sf-lug@linuxmafia.com">sf-lug@linuxmafia.com</a> listadmin since
2005. That's, y'know, a decade and a half, right? So, how come you
haven't yet studied, well, pretty much any bit of that?
(2) Given that I told you at about 2pm today what the problem was, would
it have hurt you to _listen_, and not utterly disregard what I said and
try to ask some third-party sysadmin, apparently because you decided to
ignore what I said?
_______________________________________________
sf-lug mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:sf-lug@linuxmafia.com">sf-lug@linuxmafia.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug">http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug</a>
SF-LUG is at <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.sf-lug.org/">http://www.sf-lug.org/</a>
</pre>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
sf-lug mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:sf-lug@linuxmafia.com">sf-lug@linuxmafia.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug">http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug</a>
SF-LUG is at <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.sf-lug.org/">http://www.sf-lug.org/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
_______________________________________________
sf-lug mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:sf-lug@linuxmafia.com">sf-lug@linuxmafia.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug">http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug</a>
SF-LUG is at <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.sf-lug.org/">http://www.sf-lug.org/</a>
</pre>
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