From jim at well.com  Fri Jul  3 11:36:47 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 11:36:47 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] sf-lug meets sunday at cafe enchante on geary at 26th from
	11 to 1	PM
Message-ID: <1246646207.6517.3.camel@jim-laptop>


   sf-lug meets this sunday, 20090705, at the cafe 
enchante, on geary blvd at 26th ave in san francisco 
from 11 AM to 1 PM (or so). 
   there'll be a few Ubuntu 9.04 CDs available, 
thanks to grant bowman. 





From nbs at sonic.net  Sat Jul  4 11:45:42 2009
From: nbs at sonic.net (Bill Kendrick)
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 11:45:42 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [Semi-OT] Tux Paint 0.9.21 released
Message-ID: <20090704184542.GC1112@sonic.net>


Tux Paint 0.9.21 has been released!  It's available for Windows Vista/2000/XP,
Mac OS X 10.4, RedHat Linux (6.2 thru 9), Fedora (CORE) Linux (1 thru 11),
and as source code.

See the full press release here:
  http://tuxpaint.org/latest/tuxpaint-0.9.21-press-release-en.php3

Enjoy! :^)

-- 
-bill!
Sent from my computer



From bliss at sfo.com  Mon Jul  6 10:16:24 2009
From: bliss at sfo.com (Bobbie Sellers)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 10:16:24 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Dell Ubuntu computers
Message-ID: <4A523168.8050902@sfo.com>

    In case you don't have Linux shops like ZaReason in your 
neighborhood this
url might be of interest.

    
<http://www.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/linux_3x?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs&dgc=CJ&cid=27811&lid=646949&acd=10536941-2562472->


    A Dell Inspiron15n laptop starts at $299 and can be customized 
considerably.

    An Inspiron 530n desktop starts at about  $378 with a monitor.  Lots 
of customization available
with this machine as well.

    I was looking for other information and serendipitously chanced 
across this url
which I had searched for earlier without particular success.

    later
    bliss.



From femtoghoti at gmail.com  Mon Jul  6 10:50:15 2009
From: femtoghoti at gmail.com (Femtoghoti)
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 10:50:15 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Dell Ubuntu computers
In-Reply-To: <4A523168.8050902@sfo.com>
References: <4A523168.8050902@sfo.com>
Message-ID: <17bd772b0907061050h2f798caag16717d6881b4a87e@mail.gmail.com>

Dell's Mini9 and A90 (netbooks) ship with Ubuntu ... the distro they
ship with isn't so good ... but all the hardware is Ubuntu (and OSX)
compatible so it can't be that hard to install a fresh copy.

Eric

On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 10:16 AM, Bobbie Sellers<bliss at sfo.com> wrote:
> ? In case you don't have Linux shops like ZaReason in your neighborhood this
> url might be of interest.
>
>
> <http://www.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/linux_3x?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs&dgc=CJ&cid=27811&lid=646949&acd=10536941-2562472->
>
>
> ? A Dell Inspiron15n laptop starts at $299 and can be customized
> considerably.
>
> ? An Inspiron 530n desktop starts at about ?$378 with a monitor. ?Lots of
> customization available
> with this machine as well.
>
> ? I was looking for other information and serendipitously chanced across
> this url
> which I had searched for earlier without particular success.
>
> ? later
> ? bliss.
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>



-- 
"A careful man tries to dodge the bullets, while a happy man takes a
walk." - Mark Oliver Everett



From larry.cafiero at gmail.com  Mon Jul  6 11:03:40 2009
From: larry.cafiero at gmail.com (Larry Cafiero)
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 11:03:40 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Dell Ubuntu computers
In-Reply-To: <4A523168.8050902@sfo.com>
References: <4A523168.8050902@sfo.com>
Message-ID: <7a0d56080907061103i32b85843wd27b39e0bcf8a836@mail.gmail.com>

Caveats abound here:

-- I just went through the process of ordering an Ubuntu Dell laptop for a
customer (actually a commercial neighbor who runs a beauty parlor) and I was
given a delivery date of three weeks after my order, and when it was
postponed another week -- making the turn around time a month -- she
cancelled the order and, with her boyfriend, she ended up going to Best Buy
and ended up with a Windows laptop.

-- I did an order for the heck of it just now, which I cancelled: Delivery
date (assuming there's no delays like the one above): July 22, 2009. That's
16 days  WITHOUT any "delays." I'd be willing to bet that there would be
another "delay" during the course of the 16 days, but let's take them at
their word. This is reasonable?

-- This, ahem, "service" that Dell provides in, ahem, "promoting" Ubuntu
needs a closer look if not some context. Arguably, having people wait up to
a month for a Linux box/laptop when they can get the same box/laptop
immediately with Windows does not do Linux/Ubuntu/FOSS any favors.

-- Good luck ordering Ubuntu Dell laptop/boxes from big box stores like Best
Buy or any other retailer, without having to go through the same process
above (if they even do you the favor of ordering a Ubuntu Dell for you).
I've asked different sales people at Best Buy in Capitola (Santa Cruz) and
the reaction ranges from, "What's Ubuntu?" to "We can't do that for you."

-- You are right: No one has a Linux shop like ZaReason in their
neighborhood because they don't allow retail outlets to carry their hardware
(and, believe me, I've asked to retail ZaReason hardware in my business in
Felton in Santa Cruz County. While I would like to carry their hardware, I
understand their position). They do everything by mail order and, being
based in Berkeley, I would imagine they could get hardware to you in less
than, um, 16 days.

-- We at Redwood Digital Research find ZaReason hardware top notch and we're
recommending the Untangle box they offer to our commercial clients.

-- There's the philosophical element to buying locally from a small vendor
rather than from a multinational corporation; buying from your locally owned
store rather than from the local Wal-Mart. Putting your money back into a
company like ZaReason that has a firm and unwavering commitment to Linux and
FOSS is a far better investment than saving 30 pieces of silver in going
with a huge company that, at the very most, gives Linux/FOSS hypocritical
lip service.

-- Chances are you'll see Cathy and Earl Malmrose -- the folks who run
ZaReason -- at LUG events in the Bay Area. Bet you can't say the same for
Michael Dell.

Getting down off the soapbox now . . . .

Larry Cafiero
Redwood Digital Research
Felton, California
http://www.redwoodresearch.net

On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 10:16 AM, Bobbie Sellers <bliss at sfo.com> wrote:

>   In case you don't have Linux shops like ZaReason in your neighborhood
> this
> url might be of interest.
>
>   <
> http://www.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/linux_3x?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs&dgc=CJ&cid=27811&lid=646949&acd=10536941-2562472-
> >
>
>
>   A Dell Inspiron15n laptop starts at $299 and can be customized
> considerably.
>
>   An Inspiron 530n desktop starts at about  $378 with a monitor.  Lots of
> customization available
> with this machine as well.
>
>   I was looking for other information and serendipitously chanced across
> this url
> which I had searched for earlier without particular success.
>
>   later
>   bliss.
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>
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From vpolitewebsiteguy at yahoo.com  Tue Jul  7 08:54:25 2009
From: vpolitewebsiteguy at yahoo.com (vincent polite)
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 08:54:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sf-lug] Think this will happen in America?
Message-ID: <322330.66936.qm@web82805.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

The BBC, ITV and BT have announced a proposal to create an ?open environment for broadband connected digital television receivers.?
It?s an initiative open for all UK public service broadcasters,
device developers and other ISPs, which they hope will lead to a new
generation of subscription free devices, carrying free to air channels
and a huge selection of on demand TV services like iPlayer and ITV
Player, as well as the potential for films, shows and interactive
content from a range of other providers in standard and high definition.

Read more: http://digital-lifestyles.info/2008/12/11/bbc-itv-bt-announce-open-broadband-stb-project/#ixzz0Kabht8Xg&C
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From nbs at sonic.net  Tue Jul  7 09:49:28 2009
From: nbs at sonic.net (Bill Kendrick)
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 09:49:28 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [fwd] Open Source in Libraries Survey
Message-ID: <20090707164928.GA18761@sonic.net>


Seen on the SchoolForge mailing list. Thought I'd help spread the word:

----- Forwarded message from Nicole Engard <nicole.engard at liblime.com> -----

Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 12:27:24 -0400
From: Nicole Engard <nicole.engard at liblime.com>
Subject: [school-discuss] Open Source in Libraries Survey
To: schoolforge-discuss at schoolforge.net
Reply-To: schoolforge-discuss at schoolforge.net

I am working on some very very broad research on open source use in
libraries (I'm looking for info from those who work in libraries - and
with libraries/librarians) for a book I'm working on.  The focus of
the book will be on software you can use that is open source.  If you
have a chance to answer this brief survey to help me out that would be
greatly appreciated:

http://opensource.web2learning.net/limesurvey/index.php?sid=63946&lang=en

Thanks a bunch!!!  (and feel free to share with others)

---

Nicole C. Engard
Open Source Evangelist, LibLime
(888) Koha ILS (564-2457) ext. 714
nce at liblime.com
AIM/Y!/Skype: nengard

http://liblime.com
http://blogs.liblime.com/open-sesame/

----- End forwarded message -----

-- 
-bill!
Sent from my computer



From bliss at sfo.com  Wed Jul  8 12:38:06 2009
From: bliss at sfo.com (Bobbie Sellers)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 12:38:06 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Any one have experience with this old laptop?
Message-ID: <4A54F59E.6080704@sfo.com>

    Compaq - Presario Laptop Model: CQ60-215DX
    I am thinking of buying one but can find no experience
mentioned in relation to Linux compatibility.

    Thanks in advance for any information positive or negative
on the usability of the machine under Linux.

    later
    Bobbie Sellers aka bliss at sfo dot com



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Wed Jul  8 13:30:34 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 13:30:34 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Any one have experience with this old laptop?
In-Reply-To: <4A54F59E.6080704@sfo.com>
References: <4A54F59E.6080704@sfo.com>
Message-ID: <20090708203034.GD26829@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Bobbie Sellers (bliss at sfo.com):

>    Compaq - Presario Laptop Model: CQ60-215DX
>    I am thinking of buying one but can find no experience
> mentioned in relation to Linux compatibility.

Try the World-Wide Web.

http://www.linlap.com/wiki/hp-compaq+presario+cq60
http://h30434.www3.hp.com/psg/board/message?board.id=OS&thread.id=6057
http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-networking-3/need-wireless-driivers-for-cq60-215dx-715644/
http://georgia.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1034933
http://blog.deliciousrobots.com/?p=86
http://www.techsupportforum.com/hardware-support/driver-support/357653-driver-laptop-compaq-cq60-215dx.html

(I looked in my 1953 _Encyclopaedia Britannica_ first, but it was less
helpful.)




From rick at linuxmafia.com  Wed Jul  8 16:18:19 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 16:18:19 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Any one have experience with this old laptop?
In-Reply-To: <4A552019.5020706@sfo.com>
References: <4A54F59E.6080704@sfo.com> <20090708203034.GD26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<4A552019.5020706@sfo.com>
Message-ID: <20090708231819.GD31812@linuxmafia.com>

[I'll asume Bobbie dropped offlist accidentally.]

Quoting Bobbie Sellers (bliss at sfo.com):

> Thank you for your suggestions.  I spent several hours on the WWW
> attempting to locate information and if your suggestions pan out I wil
> be very  thankful to you.

My search string was:

   CQ60-215DX Linux

URLs were from pages 1 and 2, of returned search results.  Elapsed time
was around 2 minutes.

For laptops, it's also often worthwhile looking specifically on

http://www.linux-laptop.net/
http://tuxmobil.org/


http://www.linux-on-laptops.com/compaq.html includes an entry on a
probably similar model, the Compaq Presario CQ60-103EL -- though it's in
Italian.

One of the reasons you want to look _specifically_ on those two sites is
that it's very common for there to be reports on a related model, though
not for the particular variant in front of you.

It helps, of course, to have probed the hardware with, say, your
favourite live-CD Linux distro.  I gave an example of how to do this 
in my page about one of _my_ old laptops:  Go to
http://www.linux-on-laptops.com/dell.html , and pick entry "Dell
Inspiron 7000 [generic]".

They call it "generic" because I deliberate made the analysis _not_ be
distro-specific -- in order to show people how to write a page about a
laptop in such a way that it's useful to _all_ readers.





From bliss at sfo.com  Wed Jul  8 18:22:39 2009
From: bliss at sfo.com (Bobbie Sellers)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 18:22:39 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Any one have experience with this old laptop?
In-Reply-To: <4A552ED1.6040703@sfo.com>
References: <4A54F59E.6080704@sfo.com>
	<20090708203034.GD26829@linuxmafia.com>	<4A552019.5020706@sfo.com>
	<20090708231819.GD31812@linuxmafia.com> <4A552ED1.6040703@sfo.com>
Message-ID: <4A55465F.1040409@sfo.com>

Bobbie Sellers wrote:
> Rick Moen wrote:
>> [I'll asume Bobbie dropped offlist accidentally.]

    Yes it was an accident.
    We talked about it at length a couple of years agao

>>
>> Quoting Bobbie Sellers (bliss at sfo.com):
>>
>>  
>>> Thank you for your suggestions.  I spent several hours on the WWW
>>> attempting to locate information and if your suggestions pan out I wil
>>> be very  thankful to you.
>>>     
>>
>> My search string was:
>>
>>    CQ60-215DX Linux
>>
>> URLs were from pages 1 and 2, of returned search results.  Elapsed time
>> was around 2 minutes.
>>
>> For laptops, it's also often worthwhile looking specifically on
>>
>> http://www.linux-laptop.net/
>> http://tuxmobil.org/
>>
>>
>> http://www.linux-on-laptops.com/compaq.html includes an entry on a
>> probably similar model, the Compaq Presario CQ60-103EL -- though it's in
>> Italian.
>>
>> One of the reasons you want to look _specifically_ on those two sites is
>> that it's very common for there to be reports on a related model, though
>> not for the particular variant in front of you.
>>
>> It helps, of course, to have probed the hardware with, say, your
>> favourite live-CD Linux distro.  I gave an example of how to do this 
>> in my page about one of _my_ old laptops:  Go to
>> http://www.linux-on-laptops.com/dell.html , and pick entry "Dell
>> Inspiron 7000 [generic]".
>>
>> They call it "generic" because I deliberate made the analysis _not_ be
>> distro-specific -- in order to show people how to write a page about a
>> laptop in such a way that it's useful to _all_ readers.
>>
>>   
>    Thanks again Rick.
>    Next time you come to a meeting I will be happy to buy you a coffee 
> and
> pastry.  Maybe I will have the new machine there.  They could be sold 
> out by
> the time I get the urge to order so only maybe.
>    I guess I tended to include too many nouns in my searches.
>
>    later
>    Bobbie Sellers
>
    Anyhow with all the information I could get I went ahead and ordered it
this afternoon.
    Should have it next week sometime. 
    This old Dell with a slow P3 and limited ram and graphics intended 
for older
versions of MS W*nd*ws had been driving me up the wall with lockups
and resets whenever I have Thunderbird and Firefox running at the same time.

    Thanks for your invaluable assistance Rick.
    later
    Bobbie Sellers



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Wed Jul  8 18:52:47 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 18:52:47 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Any one have experience with this old laptop?
In-Reply-To: <4A55465F.1040409@sfo.com>
References: <4A54F59E.6080704@sfo.com> <20090708203034.GD26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<4A552019.5020706@sfo.com> <20090708231819.GD31812@linuxmafia.com>
	<4A552ED1.6040703@sfo.com> <4A55465F.1040409@sfo.com>
Message-ID: <20090709015247.GH26829@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Bobbie Sellers (bliss at sfo.com):

> Rick Moen wrote:
>> [I'll asume Bobbie dropped offlist accidentally.]
>
>    Yes it was an accident.

No problem.

>    Anyhow with all the information I could get I went ahead and ordered it
> this afternoon.

Enjoy!

My own strategy is dictated by the fact that I'm (1) a cheap bastard,
and (2) frustration-adverse:  I tend to buy whatever high-quality 1-2
year-old model is reasonably priced on the used market.  Often, my 
top pick in that area would be a ThinkPad.

But I would be, in general, reluctant to buy a _new_ (laptop) model at
all, because then you often get new chipsets and consequent driver
and/or ACPI-support problems.  And for what, really?  A good laptop from
1-2 years ago, at any given time, tends to make an absolutely
outstanding Linux machine, and all you tend to forego, in my experience,
is extra CPU punch that Linux doesn't really need anyway.[1]

People keep buying cutting-edge laptop hardware and then asking me for
help with exactly those sorts of problems, and it keeps reminding me of
the old technical support joke's punchline:  

Patient:  "Doctor, doctor!  It _hurts_ when I do this!"
Doctor:   "Well, don't do that, then."


[1] Most laptops are designed for the needs of the Microsoft OS platform
du jour, which at any given time tends to require gobs more CPU (and
RAM) than any reasonable Linux setup of the same vintage.  The extra
CPU capacity of a current-vintage machine tends to therefore go mostly 
wasted, when used for Linux, because typical uses are not CPU-bound as
they are on the proprietary platform.




From nbs at sonic.net  Thu Jul  9 13:42:50 2009
From: nbs at sonic.net (nbs)
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 13:42:50 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] "Bay Area LUGs" flyer created for OSCON, etc.
Message-ID: <200907092042.n69KgoJo031282@bolt.sonic.net>


Hello, this is Bill Kendrick, president and one of the co-founders of LUGOD,
the Linux Users' Group of Davis. [1]

Recently, I was seeing if it was possible to get a booth at O'Reilly's
Open Source Convention (OSCON) [2], which will be in the bay area this year.
(It had previously been in Portland, in recent years.)

Unfortunately, there's no more room in the .ORG Pavillion.  We spoke with
the California "Ubuntu Local Community (LoCo) Team" about sharing space, but
it was decided that it was not feasible.

However, Ubuntu Calif. Loco (and possibly other groups [3]) has offered to
place a flyer out on our behalf.  So, based on my knowledge as LUGOD
public relations guy, and a quick browse at Rick Moen's "BALE"
(Bay Area Linux Events) site [4], I've whipped together a brief list of
greater Bay Area LUGs, together with a little map. [5]

  http://lugod.org/projects/oscon/bay_area_lugs/

Please let me know if you see any omissions or anything needing corrections.
I created the document in Scribus (using OpenStreetMap.org and The GIMP to
create the map), but I am not a graphic designer, so it lacks "pizzazz".
Feel free to take what I've done and create something flashier.

At this point, I need to determine (1) where, when and how to print off
a run of flyers (and how many!) and (2) how to get them to the group(s)
that are going to place them out at OSCON.

I'd also love if we could get these out at OSWorld (previously LinuxWorld). [6]
And, of course, feel free to print them out and place them out at LUG
and other UG meetings, to help spread the word about the other LUGs.
(Sometimes people don't think to search the web for "linux user group {city}")

[1] LUGOD is a 10 year old LUG that meets in Davis, near Sacramento:
    http://www.lugod.org/

[2] OSCON takes place July 20-24th.  The expo is the 22nd & 23rd.
    http://en.oreilly.com/oscon2009

[3] If you know of other groups who would be willing to put out a
    "multi-LUG" flyer, please let me knwo!

[4] Bay Area Linux Events (BALE): http://linuxmafia.com/bale/

[5] The .pdf is the printable document, generated from the source
    document, which is a Scribus .sla.
    The .png and .jpg are depended-upon by the .sla.
    The .xcf.gz is the Gimp source to the .png map.)

[6] OpenSource World (previously LinuxWorld Conf & Expo) takes place
    August 12-13th in San Francisco.
    http://www.linuxworldexpo.com/


PS - I'm sending this to either the discussion mailing list, or whatever
     contact email address I could find via your LUG's website.
     Feel free to pass this along as you see fit!

-- 
Bill Kendrick
root at lugod.org
President
Linux Users' Group of Davis
http://www.lugod.org/

(Your address: sf-lug at linuxmafia.com )



From pmpope at gmail.com  Thu Jul  9 14:02:07 2009
From: pmpope at gmail.com (PMPope)
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2009 14:02:07 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Any one have experience with this old laptop?
Message-ID: <4A565ACF.4000804@gmail.com>

Hello Bobby,

I recently found myself laptop-less. Crup! I accidentally stumbled into 
that  Goodwill store (located at Van Ness & Mission). Fridays after 
12:00pm, it seems that their 'new' inventory of recycled computers hit 
the shelves. I picked up a Dell Inspiron for  $30 (flat) I brought it 
back to the lab and liberated it with a Debian Squeeze. Not the 'BEST OF 
THE BEST.' but what the hey. I use it for experimental ferment and to 
keep up my chops. I could do alot worse. Did I remember to tell you it 
only cost me $30.00 (USD)?

Happy hunting!

PMPope
EdgeLabs SFCA <www.edgedata.blogspot.com>


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From bliss at sfo.com  Thu Jul  9 14:56:51 2009
From: bliss at sfo.com (Bobbie Sellers)
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2009 14:56:51 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Any one have experience with this old laptop?
In-Reply-To: <4A565ACF.4000804@gmail.com>
References: <4A565ACF.4000804@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A5667A3.9010900@sfo.com>

PMPope wrote:
> Hello Bobby,
>
> I recently found myself laptop-less. Crup! I accidentally stumbled 
> into that  Goodwill store (located at Van Ness & Mission). Fridays 
> after 12:00pm, it seems that their 'new' inventory of recycled 
> computers hit the shelves. I picked up a Dell Inspiron for  $30 (flat) 
> I brought it back to the lab and liberated it with a Debian Squeeze. 
> Not the 'BEST OF THE BEST.' but what the hey. I use it for 
> experimental ferment and to keep up my chops. I could do alot worse. 
> Did I remember to tell you it only cost me $30.00 (USD)?
>
> Happy hunting!
>
> PMPope
> EdgeLabs SFCA <www.edgedata.blogspot.com>
>
    Well at the same place a couple of years back I paid $225 for my 
Inspiron
4000 which has been useful but with limits on a lot of things I thought were
important.  That is why I got a more powerful machine from Best Buy which
happens to be a refurbished machine with a larger hard drive about 12
times larger,  a slightly larger display, and about 7 times faster CPU with
about 5 times the memory and 32 times the graphic memory.

    I will use the old machine to do other things with if I keep it the
P3 has about 5 hours of battery life which is about 2x as much as the
Compaq..

    later
    Bobbie



From nbs at sonic.net  Fri Jul 10 15:47:15 2009
From: nbs at sonic.net (nbs)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 15:47:15 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Updated "Bay Area LUGs" flyer created for OSCON
Message-ID: <200907102247.n6AMlFpa020877@bolt.sonic.net>


As a follow-up to yesterday's email [1], I wanted to let people know
that an updated version of the flyer has been created.

Jack DeSlippe of Berkeley LUG created a simpler map, with penguin icons
marking each city (rather than the plain looking "x"es I had).  He also
redid the LUG list to be less wordy, and made the intro text stand out more.

An updated version, in both color and B&W PDFs, as well as the source
document (this time in OpenOffice.org Impress ".odp") are now available
here:

  http://lugod.org/projects/oscon/bay_area_lugs/

Thanks to Jack, as well as Grant Bowman from the Ubuntu California LoCo Team
for the feedback on how to spice the flyer up.


Marsee Henon from O'Reilly and Larry Cafiero from Fedora (and FeltonLUG)
have offered to put copies of the final flyer out at their tables at OSCON,
along with the Ubuntu Calif. LoCo.

I'm still interested in hearing whether we can get the same flyer exposed
at OpenSourceWorld (prev'ly LinuxWorld Expo) next month, as well.
Has anyone got any leads?  (i.e., businesses or orgs that will be there)


[1] My email from yesterday can be found here, among other places:
    http://lugod.org/mailinglists/archives/vox/2009-07/msg00013.html


PS - Repeat note from last time:
     I'm sending this to either the discussion mailing list, or whatever
     contact email address I could find via your LUG's website.
     Feel free to pass this along as you see fit!

-- 
Bill Kendrick
root at lugod.org
President
Linux Users' Group of Davis
http://www.lugod.org/

(Your address: sf-lug at linuxmafia.com )



From nbs at sonic.net  Mon Jul 13 18:05:14 2009
From: nbs at sonic.net (nbs)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 18:05:14 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] "Bay Area LUGs" flyer and O'Reilly
Message-ID: <200907140105.n6E15ETn015777@bolt.sonic.net>


Marsee Henon at O'Reilly has made a blog posting about the LUG flyer
that Jack DeSlippe put together (based on my original, and with input
from Grant Bowman, Rick Moen, me, and probably others I've forgotten).

  http://broadcast.oreilly.com/2009/07/find-your-bay-area-linux-user-group.html

She has also agreed to print a run of flyers for OSCON next week,
which she will split with the Ubuntu California LoCo Team.
(Grant, from that team, has offered to go get them from the O'Reilly table.)

This Wednesday, she'll grab whatever latest revision we have up, so if
you have any suggestions or corrections (hi, Larry!), let us know ASAP!

PS - Repeat note from last time:
     I'm sending this to either the discussion mailing list, or whatever
     contact email address I could find via your LUG's website.
     Feel free to pass this along as you see fit!

PPS - I'm still wondering if anyone knows of any .ORG booths at OSWorld
      (what used to be LinuxWorld, in August) that could help distribute
      this flyer at that event, too.

PPPS - This flyer is also useful to have out at LUG meetings (hint, hint!)

-- 
Bill Kendrick
root at lugod.org
President
Linux Users' Group of Davis
http://www.lugod.org/

(Your address: sf-lug at linuxmafia.com )



From jim at well.com  Mon Jul 13 20:56:46 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 20:56:46 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] "Bay Area LUGs" flyer and O'Reilly
In-Reply-To: <200907140105.n6E15ETn015777@bolt.sonic.net>
References: <200907140105.n6E15ETn015777@bolt.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <1247543806.6437.103.camel@jim-laptop>


bill: 
   how do we get some copies? 
   any way we can help out? 

anyone in sf: 
   i'm going to oscon thursday, july 23, leaving 
sometime in the AM, will walk the floors and 
maybe help out at a booth, will attend two python 
seminars both in room B starting at 7, ending 
around 9:30 or a little later, to drive back to 
SF. anyone want a ride? i can pick you up in the 
AM and drive you back after the python stuff is 
over. 



On Mon, 2009-07-13 at 18:05 -0700, nbs wrote:
> Marsee Henon at O'Reilly has made a blog posting about the LUG flyer
> that Jack DeSlippe put together (based on my original, and with input
> from Grant Bowman, Rick Moen, me, and probably others I've forgotten).
> 
>   http://broadcast.oreilly.com/2009/07/find-your-bay-area-linux-user-group.html
> 
> She has also agreed to print a run of flyers for OSCON next week,
> which she will split with the Ubuntu California LoCo Team.
> (Grant, from that team, has offered to go get them from the O'Reilly table.)
> 
> This Wednesday, she'll grab whatever latest revision we have up, so if
> you have any suggestions or corrections (hi, Larry!), let us know ASAP!
> 
> PS - Repeat note from last time:
>      I'm sending this to either the discussion mailing list, or whatever
>      contact email address I could find via your LUG's website.
>      Feel free to pass this along as you see fit!
> 
> PPS - I'm still wondering if anyone knows of any .ORG booths at OSWorld
>       (what used to be LinuxWorld, in August) that could help distribute
>       this flyer at that event, too.
> 
> PPPS - This flyer is also useful to have out at LUG meetings (hint, hint!)
> 




From rick at linuxmafia.com  Mon Jul 13 21:17:49 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 21:17:49 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] "Bay Area LUGs" flyer and O'Reilly
In-Reply-To: <1247543806.6437.103.camel@jim-laptop>
References: <200907140105.n6E15ETn015777@bolt.sonic.net>
	<1247543806.6437.103.camel@jim-laptop>
Message-ID: <20090714041749.GC26829@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting jim (jim at well.com):

>    how do we get some copies? 

Step 1:  Print out a copy of
http://lugod.org/projects/oscon/bay_area_lugs/LugFlyer-Color4.pdf .

Step 2:  Take it down to Kinko's.

Step 3:  Profit!


More seriously:  1.  Print _non-white_ sheets.  Anything but white,
but bright colours are best (red, pink, bright yellow, orange...)  
2. For future flyers (not this one), design it from the get-go to be
_any_ format other than a plain 8.5"x11" sheet.  Personally, I think
tri-fold is good.

Why?  Because 8 1/2 x 11 on white paper is the path of least resistance,
with the result that almost everybody does it.  Look at the freebie
table at any convention, and you'll observe a sea of 8 1/2 x 11 white
sheets, lost among others of their kind.

Anything you can do to stand out from the herd is thus advantageous.

Clue:  Kinko's has stacks of coloured sheets you can use.  ;->




From nbs at sonic.net  Tue Jul 14 03:12:37 2009
From: nbs at sonic.net (Bill Kendrick)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 03:12:37 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Books for kids about programming
Message-ID: <20090714101237.GC26297@sonic.net>


A few years ago (2004?) I decided it would be a neat idea to write
a book about programming for kids.  Maybe do it collaboratively, and
release it under a nice open license.  I asked around (including this list)
to figure out what modern language would be suitable for kids, and almost
everyone said Python.

Fast forward to 30 minutes ago.  I have not written a book, though the idea
has been in the back of my mind.  Then I come across this book review over
at Slashdot:

  http://books.slashdot.org/story/09/07/13/1349203/Hello-World

And one of the comments leads me to:

  http://openbookproject.net/thinkCSpy/


So apparently, while I was snoozing[*], TWO books have been created.
"Hello World!" is a print book, written by a father/son team.
"How to Think Like a Computer Scientist" is a collab'd book at the
Open Book Project.

How nifty is that!? :)


[*] Changing jobs a few times, having our first baby, and moving back and
    forth between towns. ;)  Oh, and developing/maintaining Tux Paint,
    and helping run a Linux User Group, too!

-- 
-bill!
Sent from my computer



From jackofnotrades at gmail.com  Tue Jul 14 07:45:54 2009
From: jackofnotrades at gmail.com (Jeff Bragg)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 07:45:54 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Books for kids about programming
In-Reply-To: <20090714101237.GC26297@sonic.net>
References: <20090714101237.GC26297@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <2f8a56f70907140745q496635d7p40d7f357016a5778@mail.gmail.com>

I could be wrong, but I believe the second one is the same text Asheesh was
using while teaching a Python course through Noisebridge several months
ago.  I think Jim and Alex K. were attending for awhile, and could confirm
(or deny) that.

MIT's Scratch <http://scratch.mit.edu/> language might be of interest to
you.  It seems to be aimed at presenting basic programming concepts to kids
in an engaging way, and appears to be doing a decent job of it.

On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 3:12 AM, Bill Kendrick <nbs at sonic.net> wrote:

>
> A few years ago (2004?) I decided it would be a neat idea to write
> a book about programming for kids.  Maybe do it collaboratively, and
> release it under a nice open license.  I asked around (including this list)
> to figure out what modern language would be suitable for kids, and almost
> everyone said Python.
>
> Fast forward to 30 minutes ago.  I have not written a book, though the idea
> has been in the back of my mind.  Then I come across this book review over
> at Slashdot:
>
>  http://books.slashdot.org/story/09/07/13/1349203/Hello-World
>
> And one of the comments leads me to:
>
>  http://openbookproject.net/thinkCSpy/
>
>
> So apparently, while I was snoozing[*], TWO books have been created.
> "Hello World!" is a print book, written by a father/son team.
> "How to Think Like a Computer Scientist" is a collab'd book at the
> Open Book Project.
>
> How nifty is that!? :)
>
>
> [*] Changing jobs a few times, having our first baby, and moving back and
>    forth between towns. ;)  Oh, and developing/maintaining Tux Paint,
>    and helping run a Linux User Group, too!
>
> --
> -bill!
> Sent from my computer
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>
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From a_kleider at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 14 09:42:54 2009
From: a_kleider at yahoo.com (Alex Kleider)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 09:42:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sf-lug] Books for kids about programming
In-Reply-To: <20090714101237.GC26297@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <280294.34525.qm@web110609.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>


Here's a link to another one: http://pythonbook.coffeeghost.net/
It's by a guy who frequents NoiseBridge here in the City; I came across him at the Phthon classes started by Asheesh and now being carried on by Dan. Jim has been a faithful attendee as have I before summer travels took me away.
cheers,
alex

a_kleider at yahoo.com


--- On Tue, 7/14/09, Bill Kendrick <nbs at sonic.net> wrote:

> From: Bill Kendrick <nbs at sonic.net>
> Subject: [sf-lug] Books for kids about programming
> To: "SF-LUG" <sf-lug at linuxmafia.com>
> Date: Tuesday, July 14, 2009, 3:12 AM
> 
> A few years ago (2004?) I decided it would be a neat idea
> to write
> a book about programming for kids.? Maybe do it
> collaboratively, and
> release it under a nice open license.? I asked around
> (including this list)
> to figure out what modern language would be suitable for
> kids, and almost
> everyone said Python.
> 
> Fast forward to 30 minutes ago.? I have not written a
> book, though the idea
> has been in the back of my mind.? Then I come across
> this book review over
> at Slashdot:
> 
> ? http://books.slashdot.org/story/09/07/13/1349203/Hello-World
> 
> And one of the comments leads me to:
> 
> ? http://openbookproject.net/thinkCSpy/
> 
> 
> So apparently, while I was snoozing[*], TWO books have been
> created.
> "Hello World!" is a print book, written by a father/son
> team.
> "How to Think Like a Computer Scientist" is a collab'd book
> at the
> Open Book Project.
> 
> How nifty is that!? :)
> 
> 
> [*] Changing jobs a few times, having our first baby, and
> moving back and
> ? ? forth between towns. ;)? Oh, and
> developing/maintaining Tux Paint,
> ? ? and helping run a Linux User Group, too!
> 
> -- 
> -bill!
> Sent from my computer
> 
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
> 


      



From jim at well.com  Tue Jul 14 10:44:12 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 10:44:12 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Books for kids about programming
In-Reply-To: <20090714101237.GC26297@sonic.net>
References: <20090714101237.GC26297@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <1247593452.6437.124.camel@jim-laptop>


   There's also Al Sweigart's "Invent Your Own 
Computer Games with Python": 

   Here's a link with a blurb from the author: 
http://groups.google.com/group/freecomputerbooks/web/invent-your-own-computer-games-with-python-2008-albert-sweigart 

   Here's a link that presents downloads for this 
and other Python-oriented computer "books": 
http://freecomputerbooks.com/langPythonBooks.html 

   The XO laptop (One Laptop Per Child) has a 
Python programming activity: 
http://www.laptop.org/en/ 

   Seems to me your idea to write something that 
introduces programming to children is still a 
good idea. The "something" may or may not be a 
book, per se. I think an interactive game could 
be good: something that starts simple and, as it 
builds, presents exercises that are "pythonic", 
an important concept that, seems to me, is 
largely missing in Python books and other 
material. 


   (In my view, "How to Think Like a Computer Scientist: 
Learning with Python" is frustratingly incomplete 
in its mission.) 



On Tue, 2009-07-14 at 03:12 -0700, Bill Kendrick wrote:
> A few years ago (2004?) I decided it would be a neat idea to write
> a book about programming for kids.  Maybe do it collaboratively, and
> release it under a nice open license.  I asked around (including this list)
> to figure out what modern language would be suitable for kids, and almost
> everyone said Python.
> 
> Fast forward to 30 minutes ago.  I have not written a book, though the idea
> has been in the back of my mind.  Then I come across this book review over
> at Slashdot:
> 
>   http://books.slashdot.org/story/09/07/13/1349203/Hello-World
> 
> And one of the comments leads me to:
> 
>   http://openbookproject.net/thinkCSpy/
> 
> 
> So apparently, while I was snoozing[*], TWO books have been created.
> "Hello World!" is a print book, written by a father/son team.
> "How to Think Like a Computer Scientist" is a collab'd book at the
> Open Book Project.
> 
> How nifty is that!? :)
> 
> 
> [*] Changing jobs a few times, having our first baby, and moving back and
>     forth between towns. ;)  Oh, and developing/maintaining Tux Paint,
>     and helping run a Linux User Group, too!
> 




From lx_rudis at sbcglobal.net  Tue Jul 14 11:31:13 2009
From: lx_rudis at sbcglobal.net (Lx Rudis)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 11:31:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sf-lug] Books for kids about programming
Message-ID: <950464.39315.qm@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


what a fascinating thread!

it happens that i'm re-reading "structure and interpretation of computer programs", by ableson and sussman isbn0-07-000-422-6, 
these bits from the forward and introduction immediately came to mind when i thought about young people, computing and communication:

"...the source of the exhiliration associated with computer programming is the continual unfolding within the mind and on the computer of mechanisms expressed as programs, and the explosion of perception they generate..."

...and

"...a computer language is not just a way of gettng a computer to perform operations, but rather ... a novel formal medium for expressing ideas about methodology..."

x





From jim at well.com  Tue Jul 14 10:58:09 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 10:58:09 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Books for kids about programming
In-Reply-To: <2f8a56f70907140745q496635d7p40d7f357016a5778@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090714101237.GC26297@sonic.net>
	<2f8a56f70907140745q496635d7p40d7f357016a5778@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1247594289.6437.133.camel@jim-laptop>


   You remember correctly, Jeff. What was a sf-lug 
study group moved to the Noisebridge location at 
83C Weise (near Mission and 16th), and as part of 
leaving San Francisco passed the leader role to 
Dan Silverstein, who's still using the "Think 
Like..." book (currently about half-way through, 
for those who'd like to join in: mondays at 6:30). 




On Tue, 2009-07-14 at 07:45 -0700, Jeff Bragg wrote:
> I could be wrong, but I believe the second one is the same text
> Asheesh was using while teaching a Python course through Noisebridge
> several months ago.  I think Jim and Alex K. were attending for
> awhile, and could confirm (or deny) that.
> 
> MIT's Scratch language might be of interest to you.  It seems to be
> aimed at presenting basic programming concepts to kids in an engaging
> way, and appears to be doing a decent job of it.
> 
> On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 3:12 AM, Bill Kendrick <nbs at sonic.net> wrote:
>         
>         A few years ago (2004?) I decided it would be a neat idea to
>         write
>         a book about programming for kids.  Maybe do it
>         collaboratively, and
>         release it under a nice open license.  I asked around
>         (including this list)
>         to figure out what modern language would be suitable for kids,
>         and almost
>         everyone said Python.
>         
>         Fast forward to 30 minutes ago.  I have not written a book,
>         though the idea
>         has been in the back of my mind.  Then I come across this book
>         review over
>         at Slashdot:
>         
>          http://books.slashdot.org/story/09/07/13/1349203/Hello-World
>         
>         And one of the comments leads me to:
>         
>          http://openbookproject.net/thinkCSpy/
>         
>         
>         So apparently, while I was snoozing[*], TWO books have been
>         created.
>         "Hello World!" is a print book, written by a father/son team.
>         "How to Think Like a Computer Scientist" is a collab'd book at
>         the
>         Open Book Project.
>         
>         How nifty is that!? :)
>         
>         
>         [*] Changing jobs a few times, having our first baby, and
>         moving back and
>            forth between towns. ;)  Oh, and developing/maintaining Tux
>         Paint,
>            and helping run a Linux User Group, too!
>         
>         --
>         -bill!
>         Sent from my computer
>         
>         _______________________________________________
>         sf-lug mailing list
>         sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
>         http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
> 
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug




From jim at well.com  Tue Jul 14 11:40:21 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 11:40:21 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [Fwd: Re: [school-discuss] Programming for Kids]
Message-ID: <1247596821.6437.138.camel@jim-laptop>


as seen on the school-discuss list: 


To: schoolforge-discuss at schoolforge.net
Subject: Re: [school-discuss] Programming for Kids
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 20:34:51 +0200

>> While Python (especially VPython) certainly has
>> merits as an environment for young programmers,
>
> I'm curious if anyone has taught a course using Snake Wrangling for Kids?
>
> http://www.briggs.net.nz/log/writing/snake-wrangling-for-kids/
>

my last course for python was not entirely based on it but i got a lot
of inspiration from that excellent book

if you want to know more, stay tuned on python edu-sig list






From rafa-el at att.net  Tue Jul 14 11:47:57 2009
From: rafa-el at att.net (Rafael Vanoni)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 11:47:57 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [Fwd: Re: [school-discuss] Programming for Kids]
In-Reply-To: <1247596821.6437.138.camel@jim-laptop>
References: <1247596821.6437.138.camel@jim-laptop>
Message-ID: <4A5CD2DD.5050201@att.net>

Not a book, but on the same topic, one of my co-workers wrote up a 
programmer's abc a few years ago -> 
http://blogs.sun.com/barts/entry/a_programmer_s_abcs

Rafael


jim wrote:
> as seen on the school-discuss list: 
> 
> 
> To: schoolforge-discuss at schoolforge.net
> Subject: Re: [school-discuss] Programming for Kids
> Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 20:34:51 +0200
> 
>>> While Python (especially VPython) certainly has
>>> merits as an environment for young programmers,
>> I'm curious if anyone has taught a course using Snake Wrangling for Kids?
>>
>> http://www.briggs.net.nz/log/writing/snake-wrangling-for-kids/
>>
> 
> my last course for python was not entirely based on it but i got a lot
> of inspiration from that excellent book
> 
> if you want to know more, stay tuned on python edu-sig list
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
> 




From rick at linuxmafia.com  Tue Jul 14 11:50:54 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 11:50:54 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [Fwd: Re: [school-discuss] Programming for Kids]
In-Reply-To: <4A5CD2DD.5050201@att.net>
References: <1247596821.6437.138.camel@jim-laptop> <4A5CD2DD.5050201@att.net>
Message-ID: <20090714185054.GJ26829@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Rafael Vanoni (rafa-el at att.net):

> Not a book, but on the same topic, one of my co-workers wrote up a  
> programmer's abc a few years ago ->  
> http://blogs.sun.com/barts/entry/a_programmer_s_abcs

I see your song, and raise you
http://steve.savitzky.net/Tools/TeX/alphabet.html .




From toya at linefeed.org  Wed Jul 15 09:03:39 2009
From: toya at linefeed.org (toya)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 09:03:39 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] geoprocessing help
Message-ID: <4A5DFDDB.8090108@linefeed.org>

Hi,

I am working on a website that works with maps API etc. Is a free
software people are developing in Brazil and I want to start testing it
for SF.

I was wondering if anyone here could give me a hint of where I can get
some data about San Francisco. If there is any geoprocessing department
of universities here that I could get in touch to get this data.

Pretty much I am looking for latitude and longitude data for the
neighborhoods of SF. For a city in Brazil we could get this data with
the university department of geoprocessing, so I think some university
here might be able to help me out with it.

I appreciate any help.

Toya
SFCCP.net









From jackofnotrades at gmail.com  Wed Jul 15 10:01:42 2009
From: jackofnotrades at gmail.com (Jeff Bragg)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 10:01:42 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] geoprocessing help
In-Reply-To: <4A5DFDDB.8090108@linefeed.org>
References: <4A5DFDDB.8090108@linefeed.org>
Message-ID: <2f8a56f70907151001r667648b3h91285eebff7f729f@mail.gmail.com>

You might try San Francisco State University's Dept. of Geosciences at
http://tornado.sfsu.edu/.  There are various contact names and methods
listed on the site.  Of course, the university is so strapped due to budget
cuts, etc that they are not accepting new students for the fall semester, so
I have no idea how cooperative or available they'll be.

You could also try SF Government pages at http://www.sfgov.org/; one of the
transportation- or housing-related agencies might have that information.  Or
you could skip straight to San Francisco Municipal Transportation Agency at
http://www.sfmta.com/cms/home/sfmta.php.  And
nextbus<http://www.nextbus.com/>has to be getting bus locations from
somewhere, though their information is
more likely to describe bus routes than neighborhood boundaries (and I have
no idea what they'd be willing to share).

Good luck with your search.

On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 9:03 AM, toya <toya at linefeed.org> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I am working on a website that works with maps API etc. Is a free
> software people are developing in Brazil and I want to start testing it
> for SF.
>
> I was wondering if anyone here could give me a hint of where I can get
> some data about San Francisco. If there is any geoprocessing department
> of universities here that I could get in touch to get this data.
>
> Pretty much I am looking for latitude and longitude data for the
> neighborhoods of SF. For a city in Brazil we could get this data with
> the university department of geoprocessing, so I think some university
> here might be able to help me out with it.
>
> I appreciate any help.
>
> Toya
> SFCCP.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>
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From rigelc at gmail.com  Wed Jul 15 10:14:02 2009
From: rigelc at gmail.com (Rigel Christian)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 13:14:02 -0400
Subject: [sf-lug] geoprocessing help
In-Reply-To: <4A5DFDDB.8090108@linefeed.org>
References: <4A5DFDDB.8090108@linefeed.org>
Message-ID: <d47aa47d0907151014i4bafbaaficfbd0173b7650ce8@mail.gmail.com>

I'd echo jack's suggestion to check with the MTA. A few years ago i
was tinkering with similar stuff and though i had to go down to their
office and sign a form saying something or other, they were willing to
let me have the current GPS data for the bus routes.

good luck

On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 12:03 PM, toya<toya at linefeed.org> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I am working on a website that works with maps API etc. Is a free
> software people are developing in Brazil and I want to start testing it
> for SF.
>
> I was wondering if anyone here could give me a hint of where I can get
> some data about San Francisco. If there is any geoprocessing department
> of universities here that I could get in touch to get this data.
>
> Pretty much I am looking for latitude and longitude data for the
> neighborhoods of SF. For a city in Brazil we could get this data with
> the university department of geoprocessing, so I think some university
> here might be able to help me out with it.
>
> I appreciate any help.
>
> Toya
> SFCCP.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>



From vpolitewebsiteguy at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 15 10:31:14 2009
From: vpolitewebsiteguy at yahoo.com (vincent polite)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 10:31:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sf-lug] geoprocessing help
In-Reply-To: <4A5DFDDB.8090108@linefeed.org>
References: <4A5DFDDB.8090108@linefeed.org>
Message-ID: <181583.23821.qm@web82808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hi Toya,

I can think of three places of the top of my head. Cloud Made (www.cloudmade.com) has a bunch of data from their mapping parties. The regional EPA office (uh, I forgot the correct term) a geographical mapping? office in SF. And you can always, probably more for spot checks, get latitude & longitude from Google Maps. Since they don't have control of the source files, it might be a little off. Probably grenade accurracy.

Goodluck,
Vince




________________________________
From: toya <toya at linefeed.org>
To: sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 9:03:39 AM
Subject: [sf-lug] geoprocessing help

Hi,

I am working on a website that works with maps API etc. Is a free
software people are developing in Brazil and I want to start testing it
for SF.

I was wondering if anyone here could give me a hint of where I can get
some data about San Francisco. If there is any geoprocessing department
of universities here that I could get in touch to get this data.

Pretty much I am looking for latitude and longitude data for the
neighborhoods of SF. For a city in Brazil we could get this data with
the university department of geoprocessing, so I think some university
here might be able to help me out with it.

I appreciate any help.

Toya
SFCCP.net







_______________________________________________
sf-lug mailing list
sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
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From toya at linefeed.org  Wed Jul 15 12:30:18 2009
From: toya at linefeed.org (toya)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 12:30:18 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] geoprocessing help
In-Reply-To: <2f8a56f70907151001r667648b3h91285eebff7f729f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A5DFDDB.8090108@linefeed.org>
	<2f8a56f70907151001r667648b3h91285eebff7f729f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A5E2E4A.4090701@linefeed.org>

Thank you all for the replies, it help me a lot. I will start contacting
the MTA and CloudMade people.
:)
Toya

Jeff Bragg wrote:
> You might try San Francisco State University's Dept. of Geosciences at
> http://tornado.sfsu.edu/.  There are various contact names and methods
> listed on the site.  Of course, the university is so strapped due to
> budget cuts, etc that they are not accepting new students for the fall
> semester, so I have no idea how cooperative or available they'll be.
>
> You could also try SF Government pages at http://www.sfgov.org/; one
> of the transportation- or housing-related agencies might have that
> information.  Or you could skip straight to San Francisco Municipal
> Transportation Agency at http://www.sfmta.com/cms/home/sfmta.php.  And
> nextbus <http://www.nextbus.com/> has to be getting bus locations from
> somewhere, though their information is more likely to describe bus
> routes than neighborhood boundaries (and I have no idea what they'd be
> willing to share).
>
> Good luck with your search.
>
> On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 9:03 AM, toya <toya at linefeed.org
> <mailto:toya at linefeed.org>> wrote:
>
>     Hi,
>
>     I am working on a website that works with maps API etc. Is a free
>     software people are developing in Brazil and I want to start
>     testing it
>     for SF.
>
>     I was wondering if anyone here could give me a hint of where I can get
>     some data about San Francisco. If there is any geoprocessing
>     department
>     of universities here that I could get in touch to get this data.
>
>     Pretty much I am looking for latitude and longitude data for the
>     neighborhoods of SF. For a city in Brazil we could get this data with
>     the university department of geoprocessing, so I think some university
>     here might be able to help me out with it.
>
>     I appreciate any help.
>
>     Toya
>     SFCCP.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     sf-lug mailing list
>     sf-lug at linuxmafia.com <mailto:sf-lug at linuxmafia.com>
>     http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>   




From lx_rudis at sbcglobal.net  Wed Jul 15 13:20:54 2009
From: lx_rudis at sbcglobal.net (Lx Rudis)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 13:20:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sf-lug] ST. ANTHONY'S TECH FAIRE!
Message-ID: <483378.80627.qm@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


hello sfluggers!

it's time for the next 'tech faire' down at st. anthony's on golden gate avenue!

as with last couple of times, we'll be setting up a table with 6 Ubuntu stations, and will also assist some folks with installation of Ubuntu [or other small-footprint distro's on old underpowered machines].

additionally, we're hoping that this tech faire will result in a more continuous presence by SF-Lug down there, or possibly a new arm of our mighty organization.

as with the last couple of events, this is an open call for volunteers to help out with the ubuntu table, help evangelize linux and send some underprivileged folk back home with working computers and a new starry outlook on life, finally released from the demon clutches of that nasty old Microsoft thing.  

here's what i know at current time:
name of event: Tenderloin Tech Fair 
date: Saturday, July 25th.
location: uh, 460 golden gate, near taylor in downtown SF.

load in/set up: 8am
start time of event: 10am
end time of event: 4pm
[volunteers don't need to participate in set-up, although i'm sure we'd be happy for the help.  although we'd like to see people helping for 2 hours, there's no minimum - if you can just show up to say 'hi', that's great, it helps us show them that we are a community.]

food?  
yes.  pizza and various tasty and healthful snacks will be provided.

do you need to bring anything?  
no, but you may want to bring copies of 'useful' distros.  mostly we need people to be ambassadors for linux and help out people who can't legally use windoze on their computifiers.

any questions or comments?  let me know!


your humble mail list admin; lx



From slash5toaster at gmail.com  Wed Jul 15 15:17:23 2009
From: slash5toaster at gmail.com (Clyde Jones)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 15:17:23 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] geoprocessing help
In-Reply-To: <4A5E2E4A.4090701@linefeed.org>
References: <4A5DFDDB.8090108@linefeed.org>
	<2f8a56f70907151001r667648b3h91285eebff7f729f@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A5E2E4A.4090701@linefeed.org>
Message-ID: <294686ad0907151517q162734fi7b3a2f68c397b947@mail.gmail.com>

Don't forget all the freely available GIS data from the USGS and the
Census department.

ftp://ftp2.census.gov/geo/tiger/TIGER2008/06_CALIFORNIA/06075_San_Francisco_County

On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 12:30, toya<toya at linefeed.org> wrote:
> Thank you all for the replies, it help me a lot. I will start contacting
> the MTA and CloudMade people.
> :)
> Toya
>
> Jeff Bragg wrote:
>> You might try San Francisco State University's Dept. of Geosciences at
>> http://tornado.sfsu.edu/. ?There are various contact names and methods
>> listed on the site. ?Of course, the university is so strapped due to
>> budget cuts, etc that they are not accepting new students for the fall
>> semester, so I have no idea how cooperative or available they'll be.
>>
>> You could also try SF Government pages at http://www.sfgov.org/; one
>> of the transportation- or housing-related agencies might have that
>> information. ?Or you could skip straight to San Francisco Municipal
>> Transportation Agency at http://www.sfmta.com/cms/home/sfmta.php. ?And
>> nextbus <http://www.nextbus.com/> has to be getting bus locations from
>> somewhere, though their information is more likely to describe bus
>> routes than neighborhood boundaries (and I have no idea what they'd be
>> willing to share).
>>
>> Good luck with your search.
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 9:03 AM, toya <toya at linefeed.org
>> <mailto:toya at linefeed.org>> wrote:
>>
>> ? ? Hi,
>>
>> ? ? I am working on a website that works with maps API etc. Is a free
>> ? ? software people are developing in Brazil and I want to start
>> ? ? testing it
>> ? ? for SF.
>>
>> ? ? I was wondering if anyone here could give me a hint of where I can get
>> ? ? some data about San Francisco. If there is any geoprocessing
>> ? ? department
>> ? ? of universities here that I could get in touch to get this data.
>>
>> ? ? Pretty much I am looking for latitude and longitude data for the
>> ? ? neighborhoods of SF. For a city in Brazil we could get this data with
>> ? ? the university department of geoprocessing, so I think some university
>> ? ? here might be able to help me out with it.
>>
>> ? ? I appreciate any help.
>>
>> ? ? Toya
>> ? ? SFCCP.net
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ? ? _______________________________________________
>> ? ? sf-lug mailing list
>> ? ? sf-lug at linuxmafia.com <mailto:sf-lug at linuxmafia.com>
>> ? ? http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sf-lug mailing list
>> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
>> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>



-- 
We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With
our thoughts, we make the world.
-Buddha



From jr at inconspicuous.org  Wed Jul 15 15:51:28 2009
From: jr at inconspicuous.org (John Reilly)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 15:51:28 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] geoprocessing help [Re: sf-lug Digest, Vol 42,
 Issue 10]
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1247684403.5943.sf-lug@linuxmafia.com>
References: <mailman.1.1247684403.5943.sf-lug@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <4A5E5D70.2050304@inconspicuous.org>

sf-lug-request at linuxmafia.com wrote:
> From: toya <toya at linefeed.org>
> Subject: [sf-lug] geoprocessing help
> To: sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> Message-ID: <4A5DFDDB.8090108 at linefeed.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Hi,
>
> I am working on a website that works with maps API etc. Is a free
> software people are developing in Brazil and I want to start testing it
> for SF.
>
> I was wondering if anyone here could give me a hint of where I can get
> some data about San Francisco. If there is any geoprocessing department
> of universities here that I could get in touch to get this data.
>
> Pretty much I am looking for latitude and longitude data for the
> neighborhoods of SF. For a city in Brazil we could get this data with
> the university department of geoprocessing, so I think some university
> here might be able to help me out with it.
>   
Hi Toya,
A good place to start looking for geospatial data is the USGS and 
various agencies that use spatial data.

Have a look at
http://www.usgs.gov/ngpo/
http://edc2.usgs.gov/geodata/index.php  
http://water.usgs.gov/lookup/getgislist

Those are just a few links I pulled from 
http://www.google.com/search?q=usgs+spatial+data  because I can't 
remember anything more specific - its a few years since I've done any 
spatial stuff, and I mostly used commercial or private datasets, but I 
know there is lots of data on the USGS sites in various formats. 

Good luck,
John



From Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu  Wed Jul 15 23:22:16 2009
From: Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu (Michael Paoli)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 23:22:16 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Fwd: [buug] 2009 System Administrator Appreciation Party
	(FREE)	(2009-07-29 6p-10p in S.F.)
Message-ID: <20090715232216.13617bj93uw8kz0o@webmail.rawbw.com>



----- Forwarded message from pewterbot9 at gmail.com -----
     Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 19:54:32 -0700
     From: "Pewter Bot" <pewterbot9 at gmail.com>
  Subject: [buug] 2009 System Administrator Appreciation Party (FREE)
       To: buug <buug at weak.org>

Event Details

Are you a System Administrator? Do you work hard 365 days per year, 24
hours per day to keep your network up and running, but are shown
little appreciation?

Then this party is for you!

On July 29, join OpenDNS ? the world's largest and fastest-growing DNS
provider ? and Meraki ? the world's leading cloud-based wireless LAN
provider ? as well as other System Administrators from around the Bay
and beyond to take a break from work and celebrate 2009 System
Administrator Month. We'll shower you with apprecation, give you great
music, stiff drinks and the company of some of the coolest, hardest
working, most talented people around.

Spread the word and invite your friends!

When

Wednesday, July 29, 2009 from 6:00 PM - 10:00 PM (PT)

Where

DNA Lounge
375 Eleventh Street, between Folsom and Harrison (near Harrison)
San Francisco, CA


The event is FREE. Register here:

http://2009sysadminappreciationparty.eventbrite.com/

_______________________________________________
Buug mailing list
Buug at weak.org
http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug


----- End forwarded message -----




From Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu  Thu Jul 16 02:22:16 2009
From: Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu (Michael Paoli)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 02:22:16 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] geoprocessing help
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1247684403.5943.sf-lug@linuxmafia.com>
References: <mailman.1.1247684403.5943.sf-lug@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <20090716022216.18975lahx4r1os4c@webmail.rawbw.com>

> Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 09:03:39 -0700
> From: toya <toya at linefeed.org>
> Subject: [sf-lug] geoprocessing help
> To: sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
>
> Pretty much I am looking for latitude and longitude data for the
> neighborhoods of SF. For a city in Brazil we could get this data with
> the university department of geoprocessing, so I think some university
> here might be able to help me out with it.
>
> I appreciate any help.

There's the USGS maps, e.g.:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=usgs+maps&aq=f&oq=&aqi=g10
http://topomaps.usgs.gov/
Digital Raster Graphics
http://topomaps.usgs.gov/drg/
Download free GeoPDF versions from the USGS Store
...
That will get you to ZIPed PDF files of USGS maps down to the
7.5 minute series - that might be about the most accurate way to
correlate latitude/longitude on map.
May also be more usefully used in conjunction with
other maps (e.g. for neighborhood names and boundaries,
more complete set of street/alley names, etc.).
Might not be so useful outside of the US, though
(that's what the US in USGS stands for).
Many public libraries often have local USGS maps
(e.g. San Francisco Public library may have most or all
of the hardcopy maps covering San Francisco - the hardcopy
ones are pretty big - if I recall correctly, they're roughly
2.5 x 2.5 ft. for, e.g. 7.5 minute series maps.
Last I looked for them, Oakland Public Library had a pretty good
set too (perhaps also including some or much of San Francisco -
though perhaps not or not as detailed).
Some recreational/sports stores sometimes also have
the USGS maps for cities or their parks and other
popular recreation areas (e.g. REI used to stock and have lots of USGS maps
for sale - not sure if they still do).




From sverma at sfsu.edu  Thu Jul 16 10:01:55 2009
From: sverma at sfsu.edu (Sameer Verma)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 10:01:55 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] OLPC-SF meets on Saturday, July 18, 2009
Message-ID: <5fb387c70907161001i76f9bde1qab8208d02a7e5a98@mail.gmail.com>

Details posted at http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC_SanFranciscoBayArea

Sameer
-- 
Dr. Sameer Verma, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of Information Systems
San Francisco State University
San Francisco CA 94132 USA
http://verma.sfsu.edu/
http://opensource.sfsu.edu/
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From bill at wards.net  Thu Jul 16 12:00:05 2009
From: bill at wards.net (bill at wards.net)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 12:00:05 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] NEXT WEEK: PenLUG meeting 07/23/2009
Message-ID: <E1MRWBZ-0003W6-RT@mail.westernweb.com>

PENINSULA LINUX USERS' GROUP (PenLUG) PRESENTS:

   +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
   |Date:    |Thursday, July 23, 2009                                    |
   |---------+-----------------------------------------------------------|
   |Time:    |6:00 - 8:00 PM                                             |
   |---------+-----------------------------------------------------------|
   |         |Bayshore Technology Park                                   |
   |Location:|1300 Island Drive                                          |
   |         |Redwood City, CA 94065                                     |
   |         |Suite 106 - Training Room                                  |
   |---------+-----------------------------------------------------------|
   |RSVP:    |Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=95531483001|
   |         |or mail rsvp at penlug.org                                    |
   +---------------------------------------------------------------------+

   Agenda:

     * 3:00 PM - 6:00 PM Electronics Recycling by ACCRC
     * 6:00 PM Free pizza arrives
     * 6:15 PM Free book giveaways or other prizes
     * 6:30 PM Presentation begins
     * 8:00 PM Meeting ends

  Electronics Recycling by ACCRC

   Peninsula Linux Users' Group, Qualys, Harvest Properties, and Alameda
   County Computer Resource Center present an electronics waste collection
   event. ACCRC is a nonprofit computer recycler with a heart. For example,
   they provide refurbished computers running Linux to schools in
   impoverished areas.

   ACCRC will accept: Small household appliances, UPS Batteries, Telephones,
   TV's, Computers, Fax Machines
   ACCRC will NOT accept: Washer machines, Dryers, Stoves, Refrigerators,
   Freezers, Batteries, Liquids, Air Conditioners
   Note: They particularly want old CRT monitors and TV's, because the
   California State subsidy for recycling those is a major income stream for
   ACCRC.

   The ACCRC truck (probably a yellow Penske rental truck) will be in the
   parking lot at 1300 Island Drive from 3-6pm. There is a separate Facebook
   event for the recycling: http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=94436229132

  Kyle Rankin, Where'd my Files Go? - A Guide to the Modern Ubuntu Distribution

   While you might not be able to tell at a cursory glance, much has changed
   behind the scenes on a modern Ubuntu system, from what you might be used
   to if you have used Linux for years. For example, did you know Ubuntu is
   phasing out the System V init? That you can't loopback-mount the initrd?
   In this talk, Kyle will discuss the current changes Ubuntu is making to
   what we might consider the traditional Linux system. There's a little
   something for everyone on the talk: For Linux newcomers who are curious
   about what's under the hood, Kyle will cover the traditional and modern
   boot process, including how init works, and follow up with a guide to
   where important files are in Ubuntu. For the experienced Linux user, Kyle
   will show you how (and why) things have changed, and where you can look
   now when you want to, for instance, change the default runlevel on an
   Ubuntu system.

  Kyle Rankin

   Kyle Rankin is a systems architect for Quinstreet, Inc., the current
   president of the North Bay Linux Users Group, the author of Knoppix Hacks,
   Knoppix Pocket Reference, Linux Multimedia Hacks, and Ubuntu Hacks, and
   has contributed to a number of other O'Reilly books. Kyle is also a
   columnist for Linux Journal, and has had articles featured in PC Magazine,
   TechTarget, and other publications.

   Kyle has spoken at PenLUG several times before:

     * December 9, 2004: Introduction to Knoppix
     * January 26, 2006: DVD Authoring with Linux (Video)
     * March 22, 2007: MPlayer

RSVP

  Although it is not required, we like to have an idea of how many
  people to expect, so if possible please email rsvp at penlug.org if you
  are planning to attend.

GETTING THERE

  For information on getting to the meeting, please see:
      http://maps.google.com/maps?q=1300+Island+Drive,+Redwood+City,+CA
      http://www.penlug.org/twiki/bin/view/Home/DrivingDirectionsQualys
      http://www.penlug.org/twiki/bin/view/Home/TransitDirectionsQualys

  Traffic on 101 can be pretty bad in the evening, so we encourage you
  to check traffic conditions before driving by dialing 5-1-1 on your
  phone or visiting www.511.org, and if possible to take public transit
  (best bet: bicycle via Caltrain) or carpool to this meeting.

MORE INFORMATION

  See www.penlug.org for more information.


This notice is being sent to the following mailing lists:
	members at penlug.org
	announce at penlug.org
	sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
	balug-talk at lists.balug.org
	svlug at lists.svlug.org
	svevents at yahoogroups.com
	vox at lists.lugod.org

  Please reply to suggest any additions or other changes.



From nbs at sonic.net  Thu Jul 16 12:25:31 2009
From: nbs at sonic.net (nbs)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 12:25:31 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] .ORG pavillion opening at OSCON!
Message-ID: <200907161925.n6GJPVku004008@bolt.sonic.net>

Surprise news just came in!  There is now a booth available in the
.ORG pavillion at OSCON next week.  I've been asked if we (the LUGs of the
area) are still interested in the space.

The booth already has carpet, one counter and a stool.  May at O'Reilly
tells me: "All you would need is electricity and internet."

Despite the 20 minutes I've spent just now ;^)... I really don't have time
to organize this, esp. on such short notice.  (I'll be gone all weekend,
half of which will be Community Leadership Conference.)  And I've barely got
the time to make OSCON for the one day I was planning on going, as it is!

I've just emailed the originally list of volunteers (see them at:
http://www.lugod.org/projects/oscon/ towards the bottom), to see if any
of them want to take the reigns.  In the meantime, I figured I'd let
_all_ of the LUGs know what's going on -- including the ones I didn't
get ahold of until we were in the middle of constructing the LUG flyer/map.

Email me off-list (or, at the least, Cc me so I'm certain catch it!) if you
can help out in any way.  Especially if you want to take over the
organizational role! :^)


PS - Repeat note from all of my previous blasts:
     I'm sending this to either the discussion mailing list, or whatever
     contact email address I could find via your LUG's website.
     Feel free to pass this along as you see fit!

-- 
Bill Kendrick
root at lugod.org
President
Linux Users' Group of Davis
http://www.lugod.org/

(Your address: sf-lug at linuxmafia.com )



From jr at inconspicuous.org  Thu Jul 16 13:07:21 2009
From: jr at inconspicuous.org (John Reilly)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 13:07:21 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] geoprocessing help [Re: sf-lug Digest, Vol 42,
 Issue 10]
In-Reply-To: <4A5E5D70.2050304@inconspicuous.org>
References: <mailman.1.1247684403.5943.sf-lug@linuxmafia.com>
	<4A5E5D70.2050304@inconspicuous.org>
Message-ID: <4A5F8879.6060800@inconspicuous.org>

John Reilly wrote:
> A good place to start looking for geospatial data is the USGS and 
> various agencies that use spatial data.
Another thing that I probably should have mentioned is that you should 
probably look for WGS-84 based data, although I'd guess that most 
lat/long data out there is WGS-84.  That is the lat/long co-ordinate 
system used by GPS.  Believe it or not, there are several lat/long 
systems and the same point on earth may have a different lat/long 
depending on the co-ordinate system used.  More info at 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Geodetic_System

Cheers,
John



From toya at linefeed.org  Thu Jul 16 12:57:32 2009
From: toya at linefeed.org (toya)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 12:57:32 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] geoprocessing help [Re: sf-lug Digest, Vol 42,
 Issue 10]
In-Reply-To: <4A5F8879.6060800@inconspicuous.org>
References: <mailman.1.1247684403.5943.sf-lug@linuxmafia.com>	<4A5E5D70.2050304@inconspicuous.org>
	<4A5F8879.6060800@inconspicuous.org>
Message-ID: <4A5F862C.9030308@linefeed.org>

> John Reilly wrote:
>> A good place to start looking for geospatial data is the USGS and
>> various agencies that use spatial data.
> Another thing that I probably should have mentioned is that you should
> probably look for WGS-84 based data, although I'd guess that most
> lat/long data out there is WGS-84.  That is the lat/long co-ordinate
> system used by GPS.  Believe it or not, there are several lat/long
> systems and the same point on earth may have a different lat/long
> depending on the co-ordinate system used.  More info at
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Geodetic_System
>
> Cheers,
> John

The software is using / datum/ WGS84 and the lat/long data is to create
a polygon which will mark the borders of each neighborhood.  An example,
this is the data for a neighborhood of the city we are testing in Brazil:

POLYGON((-51.993490154818 -29.463637685188,-51.9929975992176
-29.4631359452736,-51.9922892005093 -29.4623482607523,-51.9904152201333
-29.4603797935915,-51.9886701868564 -29.4589509982135,-51.9865147108895
-29.4572934772796,-51.984064948238 -29.4554095462505,-51.9809189726264
-29.4522897091702,-51.9802952445761 -29.4517176001217,-51.9795817494458
-29.4511708039215,-51.9789160349822 -29.4514942443497,-51.9795437251165
-29.457842414099,-51.9723026722602 -29.4585247922021,-51.9728761115375
-29.4629333212678,-51.9717684120918 -29.4634820718969,-51.9709481963804
-29.4639205920359,-51.9706225832859 -29.4643554921221,-51.9702529956772
-29.4645023649397,-51.9701324330451 -29.4648276443849,-51.9700111836459
-29.4650808397021,-51.9698480307149 -29.4652622512457,-51.9693145986383
-29.4655184398539,-51.9689070083785 -29.4660043987769,-51.9689090641969
-29.4662206508777,-51.9686634725473 -29.4664026611347,-51.9685422177015
-29.4666558551809,-51.9684618374633 -29.4668727071761,-51.968627050683
-29.4669075493562,-51.9689155744367 -29.4669054491498,-51.9691635761896
-29.4669757233952,-51.969534535485 -29.4669730215139,-51.9698663452808
-29.4671868709067,-51.9699085920769 -29.4672946965291,-51.9701579575747
-29.4675091459667,-51.9706539558082 -29.4676497073599,-51.9707391380892
-29.4679374329766,-51.9708655391469 -29.4682248668557,-51.9709503792449
-29.4684765593297,-51.9709524396058 -29.468692811219,-51.9707899693903
-29.4689462988528,-51.9707927161419 -29.4692346346969,-51.970549866975
-29.469704984283,-51.9706333344437 -29.469812508981,-51.9707995831098
-29.4699554652276,-51.9710070512711 -29.4700981295317,-51.9709661757483
-29.4701344722498,-51.9707607676481 -29.4702080597353,-51.9706800462726
-29.4703888709378,-51.9708054203022 -29.4705681787864,-51.97101151597
-29.4705666751606,-51.9710946411771 -29.4706381575591,-51.9709727007621
-29.4708192606765,-51.9710149503396 -29.4709270858282,-51.971139295156
-29.4709982674197,-51.9713454019857 -29.4709967631818,-51.971510966439
-29.4710676435465,-51.9715147463637 -29.4714641051174,-51.9716418415394
-29.4718236128482,-51.9714779938805 -29.4719329424758,-51.971397616117
-29.4721497960268,-51.9714395231169 -29.4722215790428,-51.9714426156948
-29.4725459566441,-51.971426233739 -29.4726828989928,-51.9716468585968
-29.4727823553335,-51.9723912472269 -29.4730292291762,-51.9730518117486
-29.4731325249323,-51.9739198565222 -29.4733784858461,-51.9747449609881
-29.4734445333699,-51.9754446803144 -29.4733312727474,-51.9757706554755
-29.4729324030848,-51.976013487499 -29.4724620445734,-51.9763380660139
-29.4719190060361,-51.9766671422926 -29.471844502393,-51.9769123864808
-29.4716264356373,-51.9768230374134 -29.470906211746,-51.9768358126772
-29.4696589928011,-51.9768718488798 -29.4691180615382,-51.9771562414676
-29.4686834493054,-51.9775254775026 -29.4685005154506,-51.9782244675852
-29.4683151571695,-51.9785528386314 -29.4681685653185,-51.9789234653364
-29.4681297951947,-51.9791721587999 -29.4682721434378,-51.9793824057845
-29.4687031296607,-51.979977653761 -29.469460319582,-51.9803380743011
-29.4694890617823,-51.9807907848879 -29.4694136372777,-51.9811998573736
-29.4690862220046,-51.9815275217795 -29.4688675392135,-51.9818111990791
-29.4683608337594,-51.9818492920038 -29.4680361528748,-51.9815153725265
-29.467606091822,-51.9815510363325 -29.4670291178437,-51.9816289689896
-29.4665599743974,-51.9819157544343 -29.4663776366544,-51.982244798132
-29.4663031197416,-51.9824484628042 -29.4660493054291,-51.9827757674212
-29.4657945869089,-51.9831467312225 -29.4657918471131,-51.983478902025
-29.4660416949427,-51.9838135202247 -29.4665438438272,-51.9842330029527
-29.4672976661205,-51.9844323437886 -29.468730748639,-51.9847645377573
-29.4689805927779,-51.9852189845848 -29.4690853624644,-51.98563048126
-29.4690102266754,-51.9858763965623 -29.4688642365747,-51.9861230188993
-29.4687903205665,-51.9863689328597 -29.4686443205556,-51.9864517180645
-29.4686797513535,-51.9865792106673 -29.4690752856336,-51.9867881046741
-29.4693620920334,-51.9870783793517 -29.469540161312,-51.9874081377918
-29.4695377150398,-51.9876131824553 -29.4694280603622,-51.9877752614894
-29.469138502339,-51.9878126369431 -29.4687417456477,-51.9878084446881
-29.4683092440492,-51.987764432007 -29.4680212155622,-51.9875974648811
-29.4678061973375,-51.9875122353597 -29.4675184745854,-51.9873861379484
-29.4672670993699,-51.9871363783736 -29.467016641298,-51.986929243904
-29.4669100532969,-51.9868440170829 -29.4666223300171,-51.9866767052353
-29.4663712596463,-51.9867577439145 -29.4662264811886,-51.9872523500578
-29.466222813154,-51.9881598472646 -29.4662881671152,-51.9888602000196
-29.4662469209222,-51.9890261179303 -29.4663538212394,-51.9891529177454
-29.4666772784576,-51.9895273833311 -29.4670349296923,-51.9898990407234
-29.4671042546212,-51.990267907369 -29.4668852531973,-51.9906772786411
-29.4665938514712,-51.9909217892291 -29.4663036760859,-51.9908383037252
-29.4661961644892,-51.9907114993427 -29.465872717989,-51.9909140801625
-29.4655107659457,-51.9910338757411 -29.4651133856649,-51.9912783716465
-29.4648232187686,-51.9917708764102 -29.4646032833536,-51.9923028409598
-29.4642028300027,-51.9927125467914 -29.4639474730853,-51.993490154818
-29.463637685188))


>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug




From nbs at sonic.net  Thu Jul 16 15:02:08 2009
From: nbs at sonic.net (nbs)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 15:02:08 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Multi-LUG booth at OSCON's .ORG pavillion IS HAPPENING!
	[July 22/23, San Jose]
Message-ID: <200907162202.n6GM28P5012441@bolt.sonic.net>

As a follow-up to my last post, where I said:

> Surprise news just came in!  There is now a booth available in the
> .ORG pavillion at OSCON next week.  I've been asked if we (the LUGs of the
> area) are still interested in the space.

Jim Stockford from SF-LUG has offered to help organize.  Sent via Ron Wellman:

  "I have just spoken to Jim, and on his behalf I am saying yes,
  collectively we will set it up.
  Of course we do need volunteers for wed and thurs."

Jim's email address is:  jim AT well DOT com

Sameer, Leigh and Ajay have so far offered to help staff the booth.
I'm about to update this web page with the current info:

  http://lugod.org/projects/oscon/


Send Jim and I your details if you want to help, and I'll add you to the
volunteer chart at the bottom of the page.

Thanks Ron, Jim, and everyone!


PS - Repeat note from all of my previous blasts:
     I'm sending this to either the discussion mailing list, or whatever
     contact email address I could find via your LUG's website.
     Feel free to pass this along as you see fit!

-- 
Bill Kendrick
root at lugod.org
President
Linux Users' Group of Davis
http://www.lugod.org/

(Your address: sf-lug at linuxmafia.com )



From a_kleider at yahoo.com  Thu Jul 16 20:02:00 2009
From: a_kleider at yahoo.com (Alex Kleider)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 20:02:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sf-lug] geoprocessing help [Re: sf-lug Digest, Vol 42,
	Issue 10]
In-Reply-To: <4A5F8879.6060800@inconspicuous.org>
Message-ID: <950780.82416.qm@web110603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>


I have found use of UTM (Universal Transverse Mercator projection) rather than Latitude and Longitude to be much more user friendly. Any GPS worth its salt can be set to use either. Instead of dealing with degrees, minutes and seconds, one deals with a metric grid: Canadian topo maps have the grid lines printed on the maps, the USGS released some like this about 15 or more years ago but they didn't catch on; The current American maps have UTM tick marks in the margins so you can draw your own lines. Try it, you'll like it:-)
Steering this thread back to Linux and Open Source: I wish Garmin would release their Topo US and Topo Canada data and the software to interface this data with their GPSs to run under Linux.
cheers,
alex

a_kleider at yahoo.com


--- On Thu, 7/16/09, John Reilly <jr at inconspicuous.org> wrote:

> From: John Reilly <jr at inconspicuous.org>
> Subject: Re: [sf-lug] geoprocessing help [Re: sf-lug Digest, Vol 42, Issue 10]
> To: sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> Date: Thursday, July 16, 2009, 1:07 PM
> John Reilly wrote:
> > A good place to start looking for geospatial data is
> the USGS and various agencies that use spatial data.
> Another thing that I probably should have mentioned is that
> you should probably look for WGS-84 based data, although I'd
> guess that most lat/long data out there is WGS-84.?
> That is the lat/long co-ordinate system used by GPS.?
> Believe it or not, there are several lat/long systems and
> the same point on earth may have a different lat/long
> depending on the co-ordinate system used.? More info at
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Geodetic_System
> 
> Cheers,
> John
> 
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
> 


      



From einfeldt at gmail.com  Thu Jul 16 21:11:47 2009
From: einfeldt at gmail.com (Christian Einfeldt)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 21:11:47 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Interesting new game for Linux
Message-ID: <4b5781040907162111o721ba589q477e703a6652e80b@mail.gmail.com>

hi,

Frictional Games has ported some cool, scary games for Linux.  The games are
called the Penumbra series, and basically it is a horror survival game.  You
have to run around a dark Greenland mind fighting zombie dogs and evading
infected humans.  The coolest thing about the game is that the physics
engine makes gravity work just like you would expect it to.  Here is the
compressed link to a blog about the games:

http://is.gd/1BGtk

Here is the uncompressed link:

http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2009/07/are-you-afraid-you-will-be.html

Frictional games has the game on sale for $5 USD from tomorrow through
Monday morning.  You might like it if you are a gamer.  And hey, for $5 USD,
it is a great way to support a small company that is supporting Linux.

c u
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From wellmanron at gmail.com  Fri Jul 17 08:55:32 2009
From: wellmanron at gmail.com (ron wellman)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 08:55:32 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] oscon scheduling
Message-ID: <2a0eb8360907170855g3b8de49bqaaa678af8ea2840f@mail.gmail.com>

jim,

I can work wed or thurs but not both. Since you're there a short day on wed,
perhaps that would be best?

 ron
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From jim at well.com  Fri Jul 17 09:27:41 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 09:27:41 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] oscon scheduling
In-Reply-To: <2a0eb8360907170855g3b8de49bqaaa678af8ea2840f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2a0eb8360907170855g3b8de49bqaaa678af8ea2840f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1247848061.6557.118.camel@jim-laptop>



sounds right. i can give you a ride from 
san francisco down there but not back. i 
believe getting to sam trans or cal train 
is pretty easy from the show place. 
jim 
415 823 4590 my cellphone, call anytime 


On Fri, 2009-07-17 at 08:55 -0700, ron wellman wrote:
> jim, 
> 
> I can work wed or thurs but not both. Since you're there a short day
> on wed, perhaps that would be best?
> 
>  ron 
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug




From toya at linefeed.org  Fri Jul 17 10:44:56 2009
From: toya at linefeed.org (toya)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 10:44:56 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Brazil president at FISL10
Message-ID: <4A60B898.4020102@linefeed.org>

Hi,

I would like to share this:

I was at the 10th edition of Free Software International Forum (FISL) in
Brazil and was one of the luckies who got to see President Lula speech.

He spoke about free software in Brazil and how it is important for the
country. He remembered the time (when he was first elected - he is at
his second mandate now) when people met him at his house to discuss the
adoption and support of Free Software by his government. He also spoke
about an internet law project in Brazil that would restrict freedom on
the internet condemning it - one more case on the battle around the
world against the criminalization of internet users and sharing files on
the internet.

This was an important thing for the free software community world wide
as John Maddog Hall points out at his post for linux magazine:

Meeting the President of Brazil at FISL 10
http://www.linuxpromagazine.com/Online/Blogs/Paw-Prints-Writings-of-the-maddog/Meeting-the-President-of-Brazil-at-FISL-10

The translation of the speech can be found here:
http://softwarelivre.org/portal/fisl10/lula-s-speech-at-fisl-10-in-english?view=true

To add, at this recent interview with Stallman on the current state of
GNU/Linux, he mention about his conversation with Lula:
http://www.neowin.net/news/main/09/07/11/neowin-exclusive-stallman-on-the-current-state-of-gnulinux

bye,
Toya










From rafa-el at att.net  Fri Jul 17 11:24:38 2009
From: rafa-el at att.net (Rafael Vanoni)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 11:24:38 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] SF OpenSolaris UG, July 27th meeting
Message-ID: <4A60C1E6.3040908@att.net>

Hi folks

The San Francisco OpenSolaris User Group is changing its monthly 
meeting's format to include technical presentations, and we'd like to 
invite anyone who's interested in hearing about OpenSolaris and some of 
the new stuff we've been working on to stop by.

We're meeting on the 27th at 6pm at 660 3rd St, here's the current line up:

OpenSolaris.org Overview (Content/OGB/BootCamp Summary) (Michelle Olson)
Installing OSOL on laptop (dual-boot/Vxm/VirtualBox) (Luc)
OpenSolaris and Power Management (Rafael Vanoni)
How SongBird is put together--for Dummies (Steve Lau)

~15 minutes each, lightning talk-style. We'll head to 21st Amendment 
around 7pm, after the presentations.

If you're interested, please rsvp at 
http://www.meetup.com/San-Francisco-OpenSolaris-User-Group/calendar/10713456/

Thanks,
Rafael




From sverma at sfsu.edu  Fri Jul 17 11:38:00 2009
From: sverma at sfsu.edu (Sameer Verma)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 11:38:00 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] oscon scheduling
In-Reply-To: <1247848061.6557.118.camel@jim-laptop>
References: <2a0eb8360907170855g3b8de49bqaaa678af8ea2840f@mail.gmail.com>
	<1247848061.6557.118.camel@jim-laptop>
Message-ID: <5fb387c70907171138o5019676ahb97ddf266607abbb@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 9:27 AM, jim <jim at well.com> wrote:

>
>
> sounds right. i can give you a ride from
> san francisco down there but not back. i
> believe getting to sam trans or cal train
> is pretty easy from the show place.
> jim
> 415 823 4590 my cellphone, call anytime
>
>
> On Fri, 2009-07-17 at 08:55 -0700, ron wellman wrote:
> > jim,
> >
> > I can work wed or thurs but not both. Since you're there a short day
> > on wed, perhaps that would be best?
> >
> >  ron
> > _______________________________________________
> > sf-lug mailing list
> > sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> > http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>


I plan on going Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday in the mornings, and leave
around 1:30 or 2pm. I have to be back in SF by 3pm. I can pick up anyone who
wants to head there from Daly City BART or SF State (19 & Holloway)

Sameer
-- 
Dr. Sameer Verma, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of Information Systems
San Francisco State University
San Francisco CA 94132 USA
http://verma.sfsu.edu/
http://opensource.sfsu.edu/
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From einfeldt at gmail.com  Fri Jul 17 12:07:07 2009
From: einfeldt at gmail.com (Christian Einfeldt)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 12:07:07 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Brazil president at FISL10
In-Reply-To: <4A60B898.4020102@linefeed.org>
References: <4A60B898.4020102@linefeed.org>
Message-ID: <4b5781040907171207h19077eccxf94e15e3e613eb10@mail.gmail.com>

hi,

This is super-good news!  There are pictures of Lula here, just click on the
links:

http://blog.worldlabel.com/2009/brazilian-president-lula-da-silva-brings-attention-to-free-software.html
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From rick at linuxmafia.com  Fri Jul 17 12:12:30 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 12:12:30 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] SF OpenSolaris UG, July 27th meeting
In-Reply-To: <4A60C1E6.3040908@att.net>
References: <4A60C1E6.3040908@att.net>
Message-ID: <20090717191230.GX26829@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Rafael Vanoni (rafa-el at att.net):

> Hi folks
>
> The San Francisco OpenSolaris User Group is changing its monthly  
> meeting's format to include technical presentations, and we'd like to  
> invite anyone who's interested in hearing about OpenSolaris and some of  
> the new stuff we've been working on to stop by.
>
> We're meeting on the 27th at 6pm at 660 3rd St, here's the current line up:

Good to hear about the group, which so far appears to _mostly_ meet on
the last Monday of (most) months.

Suggestion:  Put full details of upcoming meetings near the top of your
Web page, and point people to that Web page (not just to something on
Meetup.com) within each announcement.

Speaking of which, the group's Web page and mailing list are reachable
from:  http://www.opensolaris.org/os/project/sfosug/ 

If the group actually cares about attracting new attendees, then "read
the archives to find out about next month's meeting details" and "This
location is shown only to members [of the meetup.com group]" aren't a
good way to do it.

Other arrogant and presumptuous suggestions:  ;->
http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Linux_PR/newlug.html




From rafa-el at att.net  Fri Jul 17 12:19:05 2009
From: rafa-el at att.net (Rafael Vanoni)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 12:19:05 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] SF OpenSolaris UG, July 27th meeting
In-Reply-To: <20090717191230.GX26829@linuxmafia.com>
References: <4A60C1E6.3040908@att.net> <20090717191230.GX26829@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <4A60CEA9.6080703@att.net>

Rick Moen wrote:
> Quoting Rafael Vanoni (rafa-el at att.net):
> 
>> Hi folks
>>
>> The San Francisco OpenSolaris User Group is changing its monthly  
>> meeting's format to include technical presentations, and we'd like to  
>> invite anyone who's interested in hearing about OpenSolaris and some of  
>> the new stuff we've been working on to stop by.
>>
>> We're meeting on the 27th at 6pm at 660 3rd St, here's the current line up:
> 
> Good to hear about the group, which so far appears to _mostly_ meet on
> the last Monday of (most) months.
> 
> Suggestion:  Put full details of upcoming meetings near the top of your
> Web page, and point people to that Web page (not just to something on
> Meetup.com) within each announcement.
> 
> Speaking of which, the group's Web page and mailing list are reachable
> from:  http://www.opensolaris.org/os/project/sfosug/ 
> 
> If the group actually cares about attracting new attendees, then "read
> the archives to find out about next month's meeting details" and "This
> location is shown only to members [of the meetup.com group]" aren't a
> good way to do it.
> 
> Other arrogant and presumptuous suggestions:  ;->
> http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Linux_PR/newlug.html

Thank you for the suggestions, I'll pass it along to the leaders :)

cheers,
Rafael





From nbs at sonic.net  Fri Jul 17 12:40:00 2009
From: nbs at sonic.net (Bill Kendrick)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 12:40:00 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] oscon scheduling
In-Reply-To: <5fb387c70907171138o5019676ahb97ddf266607abbb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2a0eb8360907170855g3b8de49bqaaa678af8ea2840f@mail.gmail.com>
	<1247848061.6557.118.camel@jim-laptop>
	<5fb387c70907171138o5019676ahb97ddf266607abbb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090717194000.GB23124@sonic.net>


On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 11:38:00AM -0700, Sameer Verma wrote:
> 
>    I plan on going Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday in the mornings, and leave
>    around 1:30 or 2pm. I have to be back in SF by 3pm. I can pick up anyone
>    who wants to head there from Daly City BART or SF State (19 & Holloway)

FYI, for those interested in staffing the LUG booth, the _expo_ part
of OSCON is only Wed & Thur.

-bill!



From Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu  Fri Jul 17 13:11:53 2009
From: Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu (Michael Paoli)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 13:11:53 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] BALUG: Tu 2009-07-21 Michael Paoli on Regular Expressions;
	+ other	news
Message-ID: <20090717131153.84423wlhe23s690k@webmail.rawbw.com>

BALUG: Tu 2009-07-21 Michael Paoli on Regular Expressions; + other news

Bay Area Linux User Group (BALUG)
Tuesday 6:30 P.M. 2009-07-21

Please RSVP if you're planning to come (see further below).

For our 2009-07-21 BALUG meeting, we're excited to have Michael Paoli on
Regular Expressions[1]

Regular Expressions are a highly powerful tool for identifying strings
of text of interest (which may then be further manipulated, etc.)
Regular Expressions are present in a wide variety of
Linux/POSIX/SUS/UNIX/BSD tools, libraries, and languages, much - if not
most - of which is Open Source or for which Open Source versions exist.
Some examples include ed, grep, egrep, expr, vi, sed, awk, perl, C
(libraries), Apache, some shells, Java, JavaScript, Python, Ruby, and
many others.  In this talk, Michael Paoli will give a whirlwind
overview of Regular Expressions basics, some of the more advanced and
powerful capabilities, comparative overview of how Regular Expressions
differ in many of the various places they're implemented, and various
interesting bits along the way.

Mostly in the contexts of Linux/UNIX systems administration and utility
programming, Michael Paoli has been wrangling Regular Expressions for
well over 15 years, including perl regular expressions for about a
decade.

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regular_expressions

So, if you'd like to join us please RSVP:

         rsvp at balug.org

**Why RSVP??**

Well, don't worry we won't turn you away, but the RSVPs really help the
Four Seas Restaurant plan the meal and they help ensure that we'll be
able to eat upstairs in the private banquet room.

Meeting Details...

         6:30pm
         Tuesday, July 21st, 2009 2009-07-21

         Four Seas Restaurant http://www.fourseasr.com/
         731 Grant Ave.
         San Francisco, CA 94108
         Easy PARKING:
         Portsmouth Square Garage at 733 Kearny http://www.sfpsg.com/

Cost: The meetings are always free, but dinner is $13

After meeting meeting (?)
Presuming enough folks want to after the main meeting, those interested
may gather at a nearby venue (e.g. pub) for further discussion on, e.g.:
o BALUG steering committee (talk about what BALUG wants/needs to do and
   possible changes, etc.)
o stuff one can do to help BALUG
o ideas for possible future talks/presentations (got contacts/leads?)
o random Linux, etc. topics
o yet more regular expression stuff
o random networking
o insert your topic here :-)

miscellaneous note for those paying really close attention - if you
earlier heard about or were expecting a "working in the business" type
panel discussion that was earlier mentioned for 2009-07-21, that will
likely get rescheduled for some future date (encountered too many folks
on vacation or otherwise unavailable, and insufficient lead time for
2009-07-21 to make a viable date for the panel discussion).

------------------------------

Additional upcoming BALUG meetings:

2009-08-18 (spearker/presentation to be determined/confirmed)

2009-09-15 Christian Einfeld on: Help yourself by helping the
            underdog... public schools. (Linux, Open Source, ...)

------------------------------

Feedback on our publicity/announcements (e.g. contacts or lists where we
should get our information out that we're not presently reaching, or
things we should do differently): publicity-feedback at balug.org

http://www.balug.org/




From vpolitewebsiteguy at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 17 13:43:05 2009
From: vpolitewebsiteguy at yahoo.com (vincent polite)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 13:43:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sf-lug] oscon scheduling
In-Reply-To: <20090717194000.GB23124@sonic.net>
References: <2a0eb8360907170855g3b8de49bqaaa678af8ea2840f@mail.gmail.com>
	<1247848061.6557.118.camel@jim-laptop>
	<5fb387c70907171138o5019676ahb97ddf266607abbb@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090717194000.GB23124@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <412180.56071.qm@web82801.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I was originally scheduled to volunteer at OSCon. But, I won't be able to make it. I might actually have work. Oh, CalTrain is about half a block from HPPavilion. When you leave the Millbrae Bart station, you're in the Millbrae CalTrain Station.




________________________________
From: Bill Kendrick <nbs at sonic.net>
To: Sameer Verma <sverma at sfsu.edu>
Cc: sf-lug at linuxmafia.com; ron wellman <wellmanron at gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, July 17, 2009 12:40:00 PM
Subject: Re: [sf-lug] oscon scheduling


On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 11:38:00AM -0700, Sameer Verma wrote:
> 
>    I plan on going Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday in the mornings, and leave
>    around 1:30 or 2pm. I have to be back in SF by 3pm. I can pick up anyone
>    who wants to head there from Daly City BART or SF State (19 & Holloway)

FYI, for those interested in staffing the LUG booth, the _expo_ part
of OSCON is only Wed & Thur.

-bill!

_______________________________________________
sf-lug mailing list
sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
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From jim at well.com  Sat Jul 18 17:20:46 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 17:20:46 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] sf-lug meets monday evening from 6 to 8 at cafe enchante
Message-ID: <1247962846.6557.219.camel@jim-laptop>


        sf-lug meets this monday night from 6 PM to 8 PM 
        (or so) at cafe enchante on geary blvd at 25th 
        avenue in san francisco. 
        





From wellmanron at gmail.com  Sun Jul 19 02:55:35 2009
From: wellmanron at gmail.com (ron wellman)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 02:55:35 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug]  oscon scheduling
Message-ID: <2a0eb8360907190255n23493111r1530b1567576334d@mail.gmail.com>

the trollies stio in front of HP Center. CalTain is at the old train depot,
a number of blocks away, less than 10. maybe the trollies go there now. or
it's an easy walk.
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From bliss at sfo.com  Mon Jul 20 07:33:19 2009
From: bliss at sfo.com (Bobbie Sellers)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 07:33:19 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [Fwd: [TAML-WNT] Computer Hardware Chart]
Message-ID: <4A64802F.4090506@sfo.com>

    This might be of interest to people working with hardware.
    It is mostly connectors and sockets labled as to type/  

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	[TAML-WNT] Computer Hardware Chart
Date: 	Sun, 19 Jul 2009 19:43:58 +0100
From: 	Tony Cooke <tonyjcooke at snipped.net>
Reply-To: 	taml at lists.worldnewstrust.com
To: 	Team Amiga (WorldNewsTrust) <taml at lists.worldnewstrust.com>



It`s a large photo collage.

http://fc08.deviantart.com/fs49/i/2009/199/8/4/Computer_hardware_poster_1_7_by_Sonic840.png


-- 
Tony Cooke
www.tonycooke.snipped.net

_______________________________________________
TAML mailing list
TAML at lists.worldnewstrust.com
http://lists.worldnewstrust.com/listinfo.cgi/taml-worldnewstrust.com


	later
	Bobbie Sellers





From Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu  Mon Jul 20 16:25:18 2009
From: Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu (Michael Paoli)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 16:25:18 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] BALUG: REMINDER - TOMORROW!: Tu 2009-07-21 Michael Paoli
	on	Regular Expressions; etc
Message-ID: <20090720162518.22312zz2aaxvr6kg@webmail.rawbw.com>

BALUG: REMINDER - TOMORROW!: Tu 2009-07-21 Michael Paoli on Regular  
Expressions; etc

Bay Area Linux User Group (BALUG)
Tuesday 6:30 P.M. 2009-07-21

Please RSVP if you're planning to come (see further below).

For our 2009-07-21 BALUG meeting, we're excited to have Michael Paoli on
Regular Expressions[1]

Regular Expressions are a highly powerful tool for identifying strings
of text of interest (which may then be further manipulated, etc.)
Regular Expressions are present in a wide variety of
Linux/POSIX/SUS/UNIX/BSD tools, libraries, and languages, much - if not
most - of which is Open Source or for which Open Source versions exist.
Some examples include ed, grep, egrep, expr, vi, sed, awk, perl, C
(libraries), Apache, some shells, Java, JavaScript, Python, Ruby, and
many others.  In this talk, Michael Paoli will give a whirlwind
overview of Regular Expressions basics, some of the more advanced and
powerful capabilities, comparative overview of how Regular Expressions
differ in many of the various places they're implemented, and various
interesting bits along the way.

Mostly in the contexts of Linux/UNIX systems administration and utility
programming, Michael Paoli has been wrangling Regular Expressions for
well over 15 years, including perl regular expressions for about a
decade.

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regular_expressions

So, if you'd like to join us please RSVP:

         rsvp at balug.org

**Why RSVP??**

Well, don't worry we won't turn you away, but the RSVPs really help the
Four Seas Restaurant plan the meal and they help ensure that we'll be
able to eat upstairs in the private banquet room.

Meeting Details...

         6:30pm
         Tuesday, July 21st, 2009 2009-07-21

         Four Seas Restaurant http://www.fourseasr.com/
         731 Grant Ave.
         San Francisco, CA 94108
         Easy PARKING:
         Portsmouth Square Garage at 733 Kearny http://www.sfpsg.com/

Cost: The meetings are always free, but dinner is $13

After meeting meeting (?)
Presuming enough folks want to after the main meeting, those interested
may gather at a nearby venue (e.g. pub) for further discussion on, e.g.:
o BALUG steering committee (talk about what BALUG wants/needs to do and
   possible changes, etc.)
o stuff one can do to help BALUG
o ideas for possible future talks/presentations (got contacts/leads?)
o random Linux, etc. topics
o yet more regular expression stuff
o random networking
o insert your topic here :-)

Feedback on our publicity/announcements (e.g. contacts or lists where we
should get our information out that we're not presently reaching, or
things we should do differently): publicity-feedback at balug.org

http://www.balug.org/




From jim at well.com  Mon Jul 20 22:25:09 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 22:25:09 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] BayPIGgies meeting at OSCON Thursday July 23,
	2009: Semantic Apps	with cubicweb
Message-ID: <1248153909.6642.11.camel@jim-laptop>


BayPIGgies meeting at OSCON Thursday July 23, 2009: 
Semantic Apps with CubicWeb, by Sandrine Ribeau 


Meetings start with a Newbie Nugget, a short discussion of an 
essential Python feature, specially for those new to Python. 

Tonight's Newbie Nugget:  Metaclasses, by Almir Karic 


NOTE: 
The July 23 BayPIGgies meeting is at OSCON, room B2, at 8:00 PM. 
Come at 7:00 PM for Wesley Chun's "What Is Python" talk in room B2. 

You must register to get in: 
Register to attend OSCON (free registration) 
https://en.oreilly.com/oscon2009/public/register 

What's FREE at OSCON? 
http://en.oreilly.com/oscon2009/public/content/free 

The BayPIGgies meeting is part of the Birds of a Feather program: 
http://en.oreilly.com/oscon2009/public/schedule/stype/BoF 

Info about the BayPIGgies July Meeting 
http://en.oreilly.com/oscon2009/public/schedule/detail/10349 

Info about "What Is Python", by Wesley Chun, 7:00 PM Thursday July 23,
Room B2 
http://en.oreilly.com/oscon2009/public/schedule/detail/10214


LOCATION is at OSCON: 
San Jose McEnery Convention Center
150 West San Carlos St.
San Jose, CA 95113 
http://en.oreilly.com/oscon2009/public/content/hotel 


BayPIGgies meeting information is available at 
http://baypiggies.net/new/plone



------------------------ Agenda ------------------------

..... 8:00 PM ...........................
General hubbub, any first-minute announcements. 


..... 8:05 PM to 8:15 PM ................

Newbie Nugget: Metaclasses, by Almir Karic 

An all around look at metaclasses, covering intro, uses 
(good and bad), and alternatives. 



..... 8:15 PM to 9:00 PM ................

Tonight's talk: 
Semantic Apps with CubicWeb 
by Sandrine Ribeau 

The CubicWeb framework makes a construction game of building 
semantic web applications that have both a HTML/Ajax rich 
user interface and a RDF/OWL-based data interface.

This talk introduces the design of CubicWeb, focusing on key 
differences from other frameworks, such as applying views to 
selections of objects implementing the required interface, 
multi-database support, migration and versioning for maintenance 
over several years, and truly reusable components, with examples 
of integration within the Linked Data cloud, with Google Maps, 
and with faceted search.


..... 9:00 PM to 9:30 PM  ................
Mapping and Random Access

Mapping is a rapid-fire audience announcement of topics 
the announcers are interested in. 

Random Access follows immediately to allow follow up 
individually on the announcements and other topics of 
interest.





From jim at well.com  Tue Jul 21 10:45:31 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 10:45:31 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [Fwd: [FSF] Amazon, 1984, and what we're doing about it.]
Message-ID: <1248198331.6642.62.camel@jim-laptop>

-------- Forwarded Message --------
From: Holmes Wilson <campaigns at fsf.org>
To: info-member at gnu.org
Subject: [FSF] Amazon, 1984, and what we're doing about it.
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 11:37:21 -0400

Dear FSF member,

Have you seen this story?  Last week, Amazon deleted purchased copies of
George Orwell's 1984 and Animal Farm from the ebook readers of hundreds
of users.  Yesterday, FSF's Defective by Design campaign responded by
giving the Kindle hundreds of 1-star reviews, but now we need your help.

Can you share our campaign on Identi.ca and Reddit?

http://www.defectivebydesign.org/blog/1248
http://www.reddit.com/r/gnu/comments/93608/amazon_can_delete_your_books/

This occasion marks the relaunch of our Defective by Design Amazon
tagging campaign, and we couldn't have picked a better target. New York
Times tech writer David Pogue summarizes it best:

"This morning, hundreds of Amazon Kindle owners awoke to discover that
books by a certain famous author had mysteriously disappeared from their
e-book readers. These were books that they had bought and paid
for?thought they owned .... You want to know the best part? The juicy,
plump, dripping irony? The author who was the victim of this Big
Brotherish plot was none other than George Orwell. And the books were
'1984' and 'Animal Farm.'"

Read more: http://www.defectivebydesign.org/blog/1248
http://www.reddit.com/r/gnu/comments/93608/amazon_can_delete_your_books/

Amazon's use of DRM and proprietary software gives them total control
over the books on every user's Kindle.  And the fact that we're talking
something as personal as a book on your virtual bookshelf reminds us
that basic freedoms we've taken for granted are threatened as soon as we
depend on DRM-laden devices and proprietary software.

You can join in the action too, helping us save potential Kindle buyers
from being Swindled, on Amazon's own site.  We'll be tagging the Kindle
as "defective by design" and "1984", and we'll be writing persuasive,
honest, 1-star reviews.  Instructions on how to participate here:

http://www.defectivebydesign.org/blog/1248

Help us reach our goal of 1,984 reviews!

Over the coming weeks, we'll be selecting more DRM-infected products for
the tags and the 1-star reviews they deserve.  We're looking for hot new
products, or products that make particularly appalling use of DRM.  If
you'd like to suggest one, email us at info at defectivebydesign.org.

We'd also like to invite you to participate in the campaign.  We won't
usually be sending these messages to the info-member list, so if you'd
like to be part of this ongoing campaign to inform the public and tip
the scales against DRM, join the Defective by Design list, here:

http://www.defectivebydesign.org/user/register

Thanks for your support!

Sincerely,
John, Matt, Holmes, Sarah, and Peter
DRM Elimination Team






From nbs at sonic.net  Tue Jul 21 12:22:44 2009
From: nbs at sonic.net (Bill Kendrick)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 12:22:44 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [Fwd: [FSF] Amazon, 1984,
	and what we're doing about it.]
In-Reply-To: <1248198331.6642.62.camel@jim-laptop>
References: <1248198331.6642.62.camel@jim-laptop>
Message-ID: <20090721192244.GC30645@sonic.net>


On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 10:45:31AM -0700, jim wrote:
> Have you seen this story?  Last week, Amazon deleted purchased copies of
> George Orwell's 1984 and Animal Farm from the ebook readers of hundreds
> of users.  Yesterday, FSF's Defective by Design campaign responded by
> giving the Kindle hundreds of 1-star reviews, but now we need your help.
<snip>

I think the worst story related to this is that of a high school student
who had bought '1984' to read for a class assignment.  Not ONLY did
Amazon end up removing the book from the kid's Kindle, but it ended
up wiping out the ANNOTATIONS AND NOTES the kid had been taking!!!

In other words, it wasn't just a case of "oops, we shouldn't have
sold that to you, here's your 99 cents back," but it actually
destroyed the kid's own work.

-bill!
(Disclaimer: I'm CTO of web-based service that allows authors to publish
ebooks, and we don't do any kind of DRM.  I don't own a Kindle, and
it looks like I never will, at this rate.  Yikes.)



From lx_rudis at sbcglobal.net  Tue Jul 21 12:29:28 2009
From: lx_rudis at sbcglobal.net (Lx Rudis)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 12:29:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sf-lug] (no subject)
Message-ID: <491689.85644.qm@web82701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


hello LUGgers,

just another reminder about this weekend's... 

Tenderloin Tech Fair 

we'll be demonstrating Linux and installing appropriate distros for people who attend the event.  volunteers will be fed - last time we had coffee/donuts in the morning and a pizza lunch.  

this is a very friendly event, and a great opportunity to evangelize Linux.  the event runs for 4 hours mid-day, and we've got an extra two hours before and after to deal with our equipment - we have six stations of Ubuntu-equipped PCs to use for demonstration purposes.

please consider coming down for an hour or three to help out!

event location:
Computer Center, Saint Anthony Foundation
150 Golden Gate Ave [2 blocks from market st.]
San Francisco CA 94102

event date: 
Saturday, July 25th.

set up starts at:
8:30am

doors will open at:
10:00am

event will end at:
2:00pm

teardown will end at:
4:00pm

Sign ups have begun for the classes, tutoring, tech repair with ReliaTech
and Linux meetings for open source software.







From lx_rudis at sbcglobal.net  Tue Jul 21 12:31:01 2009
From: lx_rudis at sbcglobal.net (Lx Rudis)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 12:31:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sf-lug] event reminder; july 25- tenderloin tech fair!
Message-ID: <72297.53662.qm@web82705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


sorry about that, forgot the subject line!

> hello LUGgers,
> 
> just another reminder about this weekend's... 
> 
> Tenderloin Tech Fair 
> 
> we'll be demonstrating Linux and installing appropriate
> distros for people who attend the event.? volunteers
> will be fed - last time we had coffee/donuts in the morning
> and a pizza lunch.? 
> 
> this is a very friendly event, and a great opportunity to
> evangelize Linux.? the event runs for 4 hours mid-day,
> and we've got an extra two hours before and after to deal
> with our equipment - we have six stations of Ubuntu-equipped
> PCs to use for demonstration purposes.
> 
> please consider coming down for an hour or three to help
> out!
> 
> event location:
> Computer Center, Saint Anthony Foundation
> 150 Golden Gate Ave [2 blocks from market st.]
> San Francisco CA 94102
> 
> event date: 
> Saturday, July 25th.
> 
> set up starts at:
> 8:30am
> 
> doors will open at:
> 10:00am
> 
> event will end at:
> 2:00pm
> 
> teardown will end at:
> 4:00pm
> 
> Sign ups have begun for the classes, tutoring, tech repair
> with ReliaTech
> and Linux meetings for open source software.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 



From peterson.rohen at gmail.com  Tue Jul 21 12:48:29 2009
From: peterson.rohen at gmail.com (Rohen Peterson)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 12:48:29 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [Fwd: [FSF] Amazon, 1984,
	and what we're doing about 	it.]
In-Reply-To: <20090721192244.GC30645@sonic.net>
References: <1248198331.6642.62.camel@jim-laptop>
	<20090721192244.GC30645@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <beaa4af10907211248n72ed9a71jb5d4d21bfae84cc7@mail.gmail.com>

I think one article I read on the issue pointed out that the Amazon system
deleted the content automatically once they removed the third-party vendor
that was selling licensed content illegally. Amazon stated they were
changing their system to prevent this from happening again.

I don't believe the issue is purely DRM. Amazon can't sell illegally copied
material, with or without DRM. If they are changing their system already, I
think the issue may be moot, unless you wanted to raise a larger question of
copyright.

Think of this as that time you first heard of that person who wrote a make
file with a clean option and deleted all of their code. You fix it and move
on.

Rohen Peterson


On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 12:22, Bill Kendrick <nbs at sonic.net> wrote:

>
> On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 10:45:31AM -0700, jim wrote:
> > Have you seen this story?  Last week, Amazon deleted purchased copies of
> > George Orwell's 1984 and Animal Farm from the ebook readers of hundreds
> > of users.  Yesterday, FSF's Defective by Design campaign responded by
> > giving the Kindle hundreds of 1-star reviews, but now we need your help.
> <snip>
>
> I think the worst story related to this is that of a high school student
> who had bought '1984' to read for a class assignment.  Not ONLY did
> Amazon end up removing the book from the kid's Kindle, but it ended
> up wiping out the ANNOTATIONS AND NOTES the kid had been taking!!!
>
> In other words, it wasn't just a case of "oops, we shouldn't have
> sold that to you, here's your 99 cents back," but it actually
> destroyed the kid's own work.
>
> -bill!
> (Disclaimer: I'm CTO of web-based service that allows authors to publish
> ebooks, and we don't do any kind of DRM.  I don't own a Kindle, and
> it looks like I never will, at this rate.  Yikes.)
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>
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From einfeldt at gmail.com  Tue Jul 21 12:51:19 2009
From: einfeldt at gmail.com (Christian Einfeldt)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 12:51:19 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] event reminder; july 25- tenderloin tech fair!
In-Reply-To: <72297.53662.qm@web82705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <72297.53662.qm@web82705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4b5781040907211251s43e8cbf5v94b9de90f7c5b5b6@mail.gmail.com>

hi,

Please note that this was previously announced as taking place at 460 Golden
Gate Avenue.  The correct address is as given below in Lx's announcement, at
150 Golden Gate Ave, which is near Jones!

On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 12:31 PM, Lx Rudis <lx_rudis at sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>
> > event location:
> > Computer Center, Saint Anthony Foundation
> > 150 Golden Gate Ave [2 blocks from market st.]
> > San Francisco CA 94102
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From kevinjsmith+lug at gmail.com  Tue Jul 21 12:59:16 2009
From: kevinjsmith+lug at gmail.com (Kevin J. Smith)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 12:59:16 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] event reminder; july 25- tenderloin tech fair!
In-Reply-To: <4b5781040907211251s43e8cbf5v94b9de90f7c5b5b6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <72297.53662.qm@web82705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4b5781040907211251s43e8cbf5v94b9de90f7c5b5b6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cd35dd0a0907211259x3b1d7f12qe544a1c5b191424c@mail.gmail.com>

Is there a contact person/web site to register for the event, or is it
just drop-in?

-KJS

On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 12:51 PM, Christian Einfeldt <einfeldt at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> hi,
>
> Please note that this was previously announced as taking place at 460 Golden Gate Avenue.? The correct address is as given below in Lx's announcement, at 150 Golden Gate Ave, which is near Jones!
>
> On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 12:31 PM, Lx Rudis <lx_rudis at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> > event location:
>> > Computer Center, Saint Anthony Foundation
>> > 150 Golden Gate Ave [2 blocks from market st.]
>> > San Francisco CA 94102
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>



From jim at well.com  Tue Jul 21 13:01:45 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 13:01:45 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [JOB POSTING] Senior OS Software Engineer, San Mateo,
	up to $125K
Message-ID: <1248206505.6642.78.camel@jim-laptop>



Senior OS Software Engineer is a permanent position with our client, a
reputable company in San Mateo CA, salary up to $125K. Please review the
job below and send your resume. We shall call to discuss more.

We are looking for a Senior OS Software Engineer to track, implement and
deploy various security related fixes to the Runtime/Operating System.
In addition, the candidate would update several components using the
Debian Package Management toolset.  Ideal candidate would have 

?        5 plus years of experience
?        Good knowledge of Debian or Ubuntu 
?        Excellent C/C++ 
?        experience with large, complex distributed systems
?        understanding of Linux kernel
?        knowledge of Perl, and shell scripting. 

Regards,
Gnani Balaraman

****************************

EthicalSoft Inc.
2570 North First St, Suite 200
San Jose, CA 95131
Phone:408.273.4553
Email:gnani at ethicalsoft.com

http://www.ethicalsoft.com

***************************** 





From einfeldt at gmail.com  Tue Jul 21 13:04:03 2009
From: einfeldt at gmail.com (Christian Einfeldt)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 13:04:03 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] event reminder; july 25- tenderloin tech fair!
In-Reply-To: <cd35dd0a0907211259x3b1d7f12qe544a1c5b191424c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <72297.53662.qm@web82705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4b5781040907211251s43e8cbf5v94b9de90f7c5b5b6@mail.gmail.com>
	<cd35dd0a0907211259x3b1d7f12qe544a1c5b191424c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4b5781040907211304u350cf269hca58c129bf85bd1d@mail.gmail.com>

hi,

On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 12:59 PM, Kevin J. Smith
<kevinjsmith+lug at gmail.com<kevinjsmith%2Blug at gmail.com>
> wrote:

> Is there a contact person/web site to register for the event, or is it
> just drop-in?


I am not aware of a registration page for the event.

If people could mention this event on their blogs and Twitter, that would be
awesome.
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From rick at linuxmafia.com  Tue Jul 21 13:10:11 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 13:10:11 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [Fwd: [FSF] Amazon, 1984,
	and what we're doing about	it.]
In-Reply-To: <beaa4af10907211248n72ed9a71jb5d4d21bfae84cc7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1248198331.6642.62.camel@jim-laptop>
	<20090721192244.GC30645@sonic.net>
	<beaa4af10907211248n72ed9a71jb5d4d21bfae84cc7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090721201010.GS26829@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Rohen Peterson (peterson.rohen at gmail.com):

> I don't believe the issue is purely DRM. Amazon can't sell illegally copied
> material, with or without DRM.

Suppose a bookstore sold you a book.  Then, a week later, you find a
note on the bookshelf in the living room saying the bookstore determined
that the publisher lacked legal rights to publish that book in your
country, and therefore had entered your living room during the night to
take the book back.  On top of the note, you found exact change
equalling what you'd spent.  (Checking the original receipt, you also
found fine print saying that customer premises are considered part of
the store, and occasionally books must be removed from the store for
various business reasons.)

Would you be a bit put out?  I would.

The bookstore, upon finding out that it's sold some number of customers
including me books to which a publisher had lacked legal rights, might
have a small tort problem.  So might the publisher.  

However, their seizing the book back from me -- without a court order
and some sheriff's deputies to implement it -- strikes me as moderately
insane and not to be tolerated.




From peterson.rohen at gmail.com  Tue Jul 21 13:28:46 2009
From: peterson.rohen at gmail.com (Rohen Peterson)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 13:28:46 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [Fwd: [FSF] Amazon, 1984,
	and what we're doing about 	it.]
In-Reply-To: <20090721201010.GS26829@linuxmafia.com>
References: <1248198331.6642.62.camel@jim-laptop>
	<20090721192244.GC30645@sonic.net>
	<beaa4af10907211248n72ed9a71jb5d4d21bfae84cc7@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090721201010.GS26829@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <beaa4af10907211328q2a6c39d6ka28c9b4bcf1be83f@mail.gmail.com>

Rick,

I'm agreeing with much of what you are saying. I just wanted to point out
that if Amazon changes their system to prevent reclaiming sold products, the
DRM argument doesn't really factor in here.

I'm not familiar enough with the Kindle's licensing to argue on if they can
legally take the book back or not.

Rohen Peterson


On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 13:10, Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com> wrote:

> Quoting Rohen Peterson (peterson.rohen at gmail.com):
>
> > I don't believe the issue is purely DRM. Amazon can't sell illegally
> copied
> > material, with or without DRM.
>
> Suppose a bookstore sold you a book.  Then, a week later, you find a
> note on the bookshelf in the living room saying the bookstore determined
> that the publisher lacked legal rights to publish that book in your
> country, and therefore had entered your living room during the night to
> take the book back.  On top of the note, you found exact change
> equalling what you'd spent.  (Checking the original receipt, you also
> found fine print saying that customer premises are considered part of
> the store, and occasionally books must be removed from the store for
> various business reasons.)
>
> Would you be a bit put out?  I would.
>
> The bookstore, upon finding out that it's sold some number of customers
> including me books to which a publisher had lacked legal rights, might
> have a small tort problem.  So might the publisher.
>
> However, their seizing the book back from me -- without a court order
> and some sheriff's deputies to implement it -- strikes me as moderately
> insane and not to be tolerated.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>
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From ttrafford at gmail.com  Tue Jul 21 19:32:38 2009
From: ttrafford at gmail.com (Tyler Trafford)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 22:32:38 -0400
Subject: [sf-lug] [Fwd: [FSF] Amazon, 1984,
	and what we're doing about it.]
In-Reply-To: <20090721201010.GS26829@linuxmafia.com>
References: <1248198331.6642.62.camel@jim-laptop>	<20090721192244.GC30645@sonic.net>	<beaa4af10907211248n72ed9a71jb5d4d21bfae84cc7@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090721201010.GS26829@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <4A667A46.4090906@gmail.com>

Rick Moen wrote:
> Quoting Rohen Peterson (peterson.rohen at gmail.com):
> 
>> I don't believe the issue is purely DRM. Amazon can't sell illegally copied
>> material, with or without DRM.
> 
> Suppose a bookstore sold you a book.  Then, a week later, you find a
> note on the bookshelf in the living room saying the bookstore determined
> that the publisher lacked legal rights to publish that book in your
> country, and therefore had entered your living room during the night to
> take the book back.

While Amazon's actions here set a disturbing precedent, what happened 
here is absolutely nothing like the comparison you are trying to make.

The books from Amazon on the Kindle are never owned* by the consumer- 
all that is bought is really just viewing rights.


[*] Otherwise you could sell it to someone else when you were done, 
which is forbidden by the EULA.
-- 
Tyler Trafford

A sect or party is an elegant incognito devised to save a man from
the vexation of thinking.
		-- Ralph Waldo Emerson, Journals, 1831



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Tue Jul 21 20:03:20 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:03:20 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [Fwd: [FSF] Amazon, 1984,
	and what we're doing about	it.]
In-Reply-To: <4A667A46.4090906@gmail.com>
References: <1248198331.6642.62.camel@jim-laptop>
	<20090721192244.GC30645@sonic.net>
	<beaa4af10907211248n72ed9a71jb5d4d21bfae84cc7@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090721201010.GS26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<4A667A46.4090906@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090722030320.GT26829@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Tyler Trafford (ttrafford at gmail.com):

> While Amazon's actions here set a disturbing precedent, what happened  
> here is absolutely nothing like the comparison you are trying to make.
>
> The books from Amazon on the Kindle are never owned* by the consumer-  
> all that is bought is really just viewing rights.

Indeed the legal form of the transaction is set up so that the fine
print consistently taketh away what the marketing wording and
commonsense understanding (i.e., of the concept of "book") seems to
promise -- and perhaps the most important long-term lesson is that you
haven't actually bought anything that's truly yours in any lasting
or reliable sense, when you use this or other DRMed content.

In any event, whether retroactively and unilaterally un-selling a file
_is_, despite EULAs, compellingly like grabbing a book from someone's
living room may be a matter for the courts to decide.  If the copyright
barons were permitted to ban, for example, First Sale Doctrine rights 
just through EULA clauses, you can bet they would have.




From lx_rudis at sbcglobal.net  Wed Jul 22 12:43:14 2009
From: lx_rudis at sbcglobal.net (Lx Rudis)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 12:43:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sf-lug] event reminder; july 25- tenderloin tech fair!
Message-ID: <334799.43632.qm@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


hi gang,


> Kevin J. Smith <kevinjsmith+lug at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
> Is there a contact person/web site to register for the
> event,

yes.  ryan at st. anthony's forwarded me this yesterday:

"...Below you'll find Kari Gray's website with all the appropriate info for
the Tech Fair.

http://ctnbayarea.org/content/tenderloin-computer-help-day-one-one-tutoring

You can sign up yourself and others from SFLug.  Understand, lx, that even
if the website indicates that there are no more volunteers needed (meaning
we're full) SFLug is still needed.

If you or any other SFLug folks can't sign up to volunteer because the
website is full, don't worry about the website, you and the SFLug folks
will definitely be needed on Saturday the 25th..."

thanks, and i hope to see some of you there!  i'll be there at 0830 to help set up the six linux stations.  if you have even an hour to spare, your show of support will be much appreciated.  

time it right and you get lunch, too!

lx




From Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu  Wed Jul 22 15:40:08 2009
From: Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu (Michael Paoli)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 15:40:08 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Regular Expressions - materials,
	etc. from BALUG presentation	2009-07-21
Message-ID: <20090722154008.82884yeh00au5iww@webmail.rawbw.com>

I've put up the materials, etc. I used in giving the talk/presentation:
http://www.rawbw.com/~mp/unix/regular_expressions/
It may get updated, enhanced, etc. (e.g. already fixed one typo).


That was from yesterday's talk/presentation[1] at BALUG[2]

footnotes/references:
0. http://www.rawbw.com/~mp/unix/regular_expressions/
1.  
http://lists.balug.org/pipermail/balug-announce-balug.org/2009-July/000133.html
2. http://www.balug.org/




From sverma at sfsu.edu  Wed Jul 22 16:17:50 2009
From: sverma at sfsu.edu (Sameer Verma)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 16:17:50 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Open Source for America...
Message-ID: <5fb387c70907221617y4fbc2399l11be173e1a2ed71@mail.gmail.com>

FYI. http://www.opensourceforamerica.org/

Sameer
-- 
Dr. Sameer Verma, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of Information Systems
San Francisco State University
San Francisco CA 94132 USA
http://verma.sfsu.edu/
http://opensource.sfsu.edu/
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From wellmanron at gmail.com  Wed Jul 22 21:13:38 2009
From: wellmanron at gmail.com (ron wellman)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 21:13:38 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] oscon report for wednesday
Message-ID: <2a0eb8360907222113v1ed7bbdbr1cc27c8b8c76b205@mail.gmail.com>

I closed down the booth at 4;30 and have taken the laptops home for
safekeeping and for recharging. The crowd was light this afternoon, except
duringthe snacking period. There were plenty of volunteers and printed
materials.

 Jim, I gave your pass to Sameer, and he apparently forgot to return it. I
will give you mine when you pick up the laptops in the morning. However it
does not have the blue stripe to get you into conferences; maybe marcie can
help you out.

Thanks for everyone's help today!
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From jstrazza at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 22 23:48:35 2009
From: jstrazza at yahoo.com (John F. Strazzarino)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 23:48:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sf-lug] Looking for a Linux solution to a Windows problem
In-Reply-To: <20090722030320.GT26829@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <135270.67309.qm@web35604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


A friend has a laptop running XP/Pro; the motherboard went bad.  He removed the hard drive and put it into a USB external case and plugged that into a Vista Premium machine.  He can access all files from the external drive.  However, password protected files which were created under the Administrator account under XP/Pro cannot be accessed; even though he signed on as Administrator on the Vista Machine.

Is there some Linux software which can remove the password from the files or is there a better solution?

John





      



From einfeldt at gmail.com  Thu Jul 23 07:15:10 2009
From: einfeldt at gmail.com (Christian Einfeldt)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 07:15:10 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] event reminder; july 25- tenderloin tech fair!
In-Reply-To: <334799.43632.qm@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <334799.43632.qm@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4b5781040907230715r37ce4457vcdff2a1afda9090b@mail.gmail.com>

hi,

I was able to sign up, but as someone says below, please do show up even if
there is no more room on the list.  Please let the guards know that you are
a volunteer, and not a client, so that you don't have to wait in line to get
in.  Just come right up to the front door at 150 Golden Gate Avenue, and
tell them you are a computer volunteer, and they will let you right in.  If
you have any troubles getting in or finding the place, please feel free to
call me at 415-351-1300 and I will try to come down and get you.  If you
call and I don't answer, it means that I didn't hear my phone, because it
can get noisy in there, so please just hang up and call again immediately
until I do pick up.

Please bring your favorite distros to show off.   Please also bring tools
for triaging and repairing computers, as we will be assisting with that kind
of work.

Thanks!

On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 12:43 PM, Lx Rudis <lx_rudis at sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>
> hi gang,
>
>
> > Kevin J. Smith <kevinjsmith+lug at gmail.com <kevinjsmith%2Blug at gmail.com>>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Is there a contact person/web site to register for the
> > event,
>
> yes.  ryan at st. anthony's forwarded me this yesterday:
>
> "...Below you'll find Kari Gray's website with all the appropriate info for
> the Tech Fair.
>
> http://ctnbayarea.org/content/tenderloin-computer-help-day-one-one-tutoring
>
> You can sign up yourself and others from SFLug.  Understand, lx, that even
> if the website indicates that there are no more volunteers needed (meaning
> we're full) SFLug is still needed.
>
> If you or any other SFLug folks can't sign up to volunteer because the
> website is full, don't worry about the website, you and the SFLug folks
> will definitely be needed on Saturday the 25th..."
>
> thanks, and i hope to see some of you there!  i'll be there at 0830 to help
> set up the six linux stations.  if you have even an hour to spare, your show
> of support will be much appreciated.
>
> time it right and you get lunch, too!
>
> lx
>
>
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From einfeldt at gmail.com  Thu Jul 23 07:34:23 2009
From: einfeldt at gmail.com (Christian Einfeldt)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 07:34:23 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Looking for a Linux solution to a Windows problem
In-Reply-To: <135270.67309.qm@web35604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20090722030320.GT26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<135270.67309.qm@web35604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4b5781040907230734g63ba7659y570a57cb6151757a@mail.gmail.com>

hi,

On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 11:48 PM, John F. Strazzarino <jstrazza at yahoo.com>wrote:

>
> Is there some Linux software which can remove the password from the files
> or is there a better solution?
>

I am a relatively simple end user, but I would guess that using a live CD
would allow him to move the files to an external hard drive, where he could
move the files to a Linux machine and change the permissions on the Linux
machine and access the files from the Linux machine.
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From einfeldt at gmail.com  Thu Jul 23 09:38:35 2009
From: einfeldt at gmail.com (Christian Einfeldt)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 09:38:35 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Microsoft tax refunded by Amazon UK! Please pass it on!
Message-ID: <4b5781040907230938m55d0246p46e461630a162561@mail.gmail.com>

hi,

Great news.  Amazon UK refunded the Microsoft tax on an ASUS machine. Here
is the compressed URL for the story:

http://bit.ly/4r31q

Here is the uncompressed URL:

http://www.theopensourcerer.com/2009/07/21/getting-your-microsoft-tax-refunded-1010-for-amazon-uk/

Please pass along this news!  I will be submitting this story to Slashdot
and Free Software Daily.
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From rick at linuxmafia.com  Thu Jul 23 09:52:05 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 09:52:05 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Microsoft tax refunded by Amazon UK! Please pass it	on!
In-Reply-To: <4b5781040907230938m55d0246p46e461630a162561@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4b5781040907230938m55d0246p46e461630a162561@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090723165205.GA26829@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Christian Einfeldt (einfeldt at gmail.com):

> Great news.  Amazon UK refunded the Microsoft tax on an ASUS machine. Here
> is the compressed URL for the story:
> 
> http://bit.ly/4r31q
> 
> Here is the uncompressed URL:
> 
> http://www.theopensourcerer.com/2009/07/21/getting-your-microsoft-tax-refunded-1010-for-amazon-uk/

A useful story that's ideally documented for posterity.  Thanks!

-- 
Rick Moen         There was an old man             Said with a laugh, "I 
rick at linuxmafia   From Peru, whose lim'ricks all   Cut them in half, the pay is 
           .com   Looked like haiku.  He           Much better for two." 
                                                        --Emmet O'Brien 



From einfeldt at gmail.com  Thu Jul 23 10:21:00 2009
From: einfeldt at gmail.com (Christian Einfeldt)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 10:21:00 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Microsoft tax refunded by Amazon UK! Please pass it on!
In-Reply-To: <20090723165205.GA26829@linuxmafia.com>
References: <4b5781040907230938m55d0246p46e461630a162561@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090723165205.GA26829@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <4b5781040907231021g791caf63pca678c65637c78c2@mail.gmail.com>

hi,

> A useful story that's ideally documented for posterity.  Thanks!
>

Rick, did Microsoft alter the EULA in response to the refund efforts?  I
thought I saw something to that effect on your website, but then I lost the
story and I can't find it again:

http://linuxmafia.com/refund/coverage.html

Thx for being a second pair of eyes.
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From rick at linuxmafia.com  Thu Jul 23 10:31:30 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 10:31:30 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Microsoft tax refunded by Amazon UK! Please pass it	on!
In-Reply-To: <4b5781040907231021g791caf63pca678c65637c78c2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4b5781040907230938m55d0246p46e461630a162561@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090723165205.GA26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<4b5781040907231021g791caf63pca678c65637c78c2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090723173130.GO18928@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Christian Einfeldt (einfeldt at gmail.com):

> Rick, did Microsoft alter the EULA in response to the refund efforts?

Not sure.  It turned out that there was a great deal of variation, from
OEM to OEM and from country to country, in the EULA even at that time.
There were rumours that they were dropping the "If you don't accept
these terms, you may not use this software and must return it for
refund" (paraphrased) language, but I keep seeing it referred to in new
cases, so apparently not.




From einfeldt at gmail.com  Thu Jul 23 11:11:12 2009
From: einfeldt at gmail.com (Christian Einfeldt)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 11:11:12 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Microsoft tax refunded by Amazon UK! Please pass it on!
In-Reply-To: <20090723173130.GO18928@linuxmafia.com>
References: <4b5781040907230938m55d0246p46e461630a162561@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090723165205.GA26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<4b5781040907231021g791caf63pca678c65637c78c2@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090723173130.GO18928@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <4b5781040907231111l1ccc0a84k11c2c8fa6c4d3e3a@mail.gmail.com>

hi,

On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 10:31 AM, Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com> wrote:

> Quoting Christian Einfeldt (einfeldt at gmail.com):
>
> > Rick, did Microsoft alter the EULA in response to the refund efforts?
>
> Not sure.  It turned out that there was a great deal of variation, from
> OEM to OEM and from country to country, in the EULA even at that time.
> There were rumours that they were dropping the "If you don't accept
> these terms, you may not use this software and must return it for
> refund" (paraphrased) language, but I keep seeing it referred to in new
> cases, so apparently not.


Refunds were ordered in Italy:

http://yro.slashdot.org/story/07/10/27/1952257/Italian-Judge-Tells-HP-To-Refund-Pre-Installed-XP?art_pos=7

France:

http://news.slashdot.org/story/08/05/19/0154224/French-Judge-Orders-Refund-For-Pre-Installed-XP?art_pos=4

and Israel:

http://yro.slashdot.org/story/08/12/03/1949230/Persistence-Pays-Off-With-Israels-First-Windows-Refund?art_pos=1

And the cool thing is that the most recent case of Alan Lord in the UK
didn't even involve the courts.  Amazon UK just paid up!
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From einfeldt at gmail.com  Thu Jul 23 11:29:30 2009
From: einfeldt at gmail.com (Christian Einfeldt)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 11:29:30 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Microsoft tax refunded by Amazon UK! Please pass it on!
In-Reply-To: <4b5781040907231111l1ccc0a84k11c2c8fa6c4d3e3a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4b5781040907230938m55d0246p46e461630a162561@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090723165205.GA26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<4b5781040907231021g791caf63pca678c65637c78c2@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090723173130.GO18928@linuxmafia.com>
	<4b5781040907231111l1ccc0a84k11c2c8fa6c4d3e3a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4b5781040907231129u21ae52beh5c1cf36fafa94ff0@mail.gmail.com>

Here is the slashodot firehose story, in case anyone with a Slashdot account
would like to vote for the story:

http://slashdot.org/submission/1043701/Amazon-UK-refunding-Windows-license-fees
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From mikkimc at earthlink.net  Thu Jul 23 11:39:38 2009
From: mikkimc at earthlink.net (Mikki McGee)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 11:39:38 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Microsoft tax refunded by Amazon UK! Please pass it on!
In-Reply-To: <4b5781040907231129u21ae52beh5c1cf36fafa94ff0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4b5781040907230938m55d0246p46e461630a162561@mail.gmail.com>	<20090723165205.GA26829@linuxmafia.com>	<4b5781040907231021g791caf63pca678c65637c78c2@mail.gmail.com>	<20090723173130.GO18928@linuxmafia.com>	<4b5781040907231111l1ccc0a84k11c2c8fa6c4d3e3a@mail.gmail.com>
	<4b5781040907231129u21ae52beh5c1cf36fafa94ff0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A68AE6A.1010102@earthlink.net>

Hi all:

Does this apply in the United States, Or just in the European Countries 
and UK?


Mikki McGee (thinking of a Asus eee from Amazon)

 Christian Einfeldt wrote:
> Here is the slashodot firehose story, in case anyone with a Slashdot 
> account would like to vote for the story:
>
> http://slashdot.org/submission/1043701/Amazon-UK-refunding-Windows-license-fees
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>   

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From nbs at sonic.net  Thu Jul 23 11:44:23 2009
From: nbs at sonic.net (nbs)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 11:44:23 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Photos of the Multi-LUG booth at OSCON 2009
Message-ID: <200907231844.n6NIiNvP031245@bolt.sonic.net>

I took a bunch of photos at OSCON, and put many of them up at the LUGOD
website just now:

  http://www.lugod.org/photos/2009.07.22/

If you have any you'd like to share (esp. from today's day of the expo),
please send them my way!

If I missed listing any booth volunteers, or people to thank, tell me!


Also, I took the liberty of hitting _almost_ every other booth in the
expo hall, and inviting them to contact the local LUGs if they wanted
to set up speaking engagements.  (Having Jack DeSlippe's LUG flyer & map
to hand out to all of them was very useful. :^) )

-- 
Bill Kendrick
root at lugod.org
President
Linux Users' Group of Davis
http://www.lugod.org/

(Your address: sf-lug at linuxmafia.com )



From einfeldt at gmail.com  Thu Jul 23 11:44:18 2009
From: einfeldt at gmail.com (Christian Einfeldt)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 11:44:18 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Microsoft tax refunded by Amazon UK! Please pass it on!
In-Reply-To: <4A68AE6A.1010102@earthlink.net>
References: <4b5781040907230938m55d0246p46e461630a162561@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090723165205.GA26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<4b5781040907231021g791caf63pca678c65637c78c2@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090723173130.GO18928@linuxmafia.com>
	<4b5781040907231111l1ccc0a84k11c2c8fa6c4d3e3a@mail.gmail.com>
	<4b5781040907231129u21ae52beh5c1cf36fafa94ff0@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A68AE6A.1010102@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4b5781040907231144x186f58a8u6432d23bcb4ea161@mail.gmail.com>

If you read Alan Lord's blog, and follow all of the steps, you should be
able to make it work.

On the other hand, there are lots of places that you can get netbooks with
Linux pre-installed.  Just let this list know if you need help finding those
places.  One of those places is a store right here in the San Francisco Bay
Area (Berkeley) called Zareason.com .  I have purchased several machines
from ZaReason.  They provide good service and they are honest and reliable.

c u
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From einfeldt at gmail.com  Sat Jul 25 10:56:29 2009
From: einfeldt at gmail.com (Christian Einfeldt)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 10:56:29 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Reminder, St. Anthony installfest
Message-ID: <4b5781040907251056s76f4df55g37772fa922099f19@mail.gmail.com>

There is an installfest today at St. Anthony Foundation at 150 Golden Gate
Ave between Jones and Leavenworth.  It will be happening today until 2 pm,
so come on down!  Be sure to tell the guard at the door that you are a
volunteer, so you don't have to wait in line!  Please be sure to bring your
screwdrivers and needlenose pliers!
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From jim at well.com  Tue Jul 28 09:56:49 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 09:56:49 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [JOB POSTING] LAMP software engineer in SF $100K to $130K
Message-ID: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>


[JOB] Lead LAMP Developer, San Francisco | 100-130k 

This is a full time, on-site, salaried position located in San
Francisco.  Locals only please. 

One of the most admired and respected publishing companies in the U.S.,
our client was founded in 1967 and over the years has developed a
reputation for award-winning, innovative books.  The company continues
to challenge conventional publishing wisdom, setting trends in both
subject and format, maintaining a list that includes fine art titles in
design, art, architecture, and photography.

They are looking for a seasoned software engineer with strong LAMP
skills to join its new technology team. The Lead Developer will be
developing and extending internal content management systems, building
new applications, and doing extensive database design. Responsibilities
will range from working with business leaders to define requirements, to
managing the launch process and many tasks in between. This is a
challenging position requiring in-depth knowledge of LAMP technologies,
as well as a strong command of CSS, XHTML and JavaScript. The job is
based in San Francisco.

OVERALL RESPONSIBILITIES: 
. Designing and developing new applications or enhancements current
system 
. Developing multi-dimensional taxonomic search applications 
. Developing frameworks for flowing user-generated content into a
dynamic website 
. Helping to refine the technical architecture of the site and the
applications developed for the site 
. Investigating new web technologies and determining their role in the
business 
. Working with product management team to identify promising new
technologies and developing proofs-of-concept 
. Serving as development lead on projects involving contract development
teams 
. Refining business requirements for new site features, and working with
editorial team to enhance site usability 

REQUIRED: 

. Expert-level proficiency in PHP. Familiarity with Zen Cart a strong
plus 
. Expert-level proficiency in JavaScript. JQuery a strong plus 
. Active working knowledge of AJAX 
. Deep applied knowledge of XML, XSLT, SOAP/REST, CSS, DHTML, and XHTML 
. Solid understanding of Apache 1.3 and 2.0 operations and integration
in a Linux/Unix environment 
. Development experience with the MySQL platform. Exposure to database
clustering required 

DESIRED: 

. Experience in coding within a Python/Django framework and/or Java a
strong plus 
. Experience with coding iPhone-friendly applications a strong plus 
. Experience "writing for the cloud" a strong plus 
. Experience with Endeca or other enterprise search technologies a
strong plus 

To be considered, please submit your resume and your salary requirements
to beau-AT-open-source-staffing.com 

Thank you, 

Beau J. Gould 
Open Source Staffing 
www.open-source-staffing.com 
beau-AT-open-source-staffing.com 

PHP & MySQL Discussion / Jobs 
http://www.linkedin.com/groups?gid=1958013 

IT Management Conference: http://www.ManageIT.me - Learn from the
Greatest Minds in IT! Creators of MySQL & PHP + Gary Vaynerchuk +
Chief-Execs at IBM, Forbes, HBO, GE, AIG, Citigroup, more! 





From tigakub at mac.com  Tue Jul 28 10:47:42 2009
From: tigakub at mac.com (Edward Janne)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 10:47:42 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug]  [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] What makes a true Linux user?
In-Reply-To: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
Message-ID: <525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>

Hi everyone. My name is Edward Janne and I'm an animation student at  
the Academy of Art University here in San Francisco. As a part of my  
curriculum I'm taking a cultural anthropology class and I elected to  
study the San Francisco Linux Users Group for my final paper. The  
theme of the paper is how being a Linux User informs identity through  
ways of speaking, categories of people and things, and common likes or  
dislikes. To gather this data I will post a series of questions to the  
mailing list. There are no wrong answers. My aim is to understand  
group identity from your point of view. Thank you all for your time.

-edj

Question 1: What makes a true Linux user?



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Tue Jul 28 11:03:16 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 11:03:16 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] What makes a true Linux	user?
In-Reply-To: <525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20090728180315.GT26829@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Edward Janne (tigakub at mac.com):

> Question 1: What makes a true Linux user?

65% oxygen, 18% carbon, 10% hydrogen, 3% nitrogen, 1.5% calcium, 1%
phosphorus, 0.35% potassium, 0.25% sulphur, 0.15% sodium, and 0.05%
magnesium, the remaining 0.7% being a mixture of copper, zinc, selenium,
molybdenum, fluorine, chlorine, iodine, manganese, cobalt, and iron,
plus trace amounts of lithium, strontium, aluminum, silicon, lead,
vanadium, arsenic, and bromine.

(Reference: H. A. Harper, V. W. Rodwell, P. A. Mayes, _Review of
Physiological Chemistry_, 16th ed., Lange Medical Publications, Los
Altos, CA 1977.)

-- 
Rick Moen         There was an old man             Said with a laugh, "I 
rick at linuxmafia   From Peru, whose lim'ricks all   Cut them in half, the pay is 
           .com   Looked like haiku.  He           Much better for two." 
                                                        --Emmet O'Brien 



From andrewevansc at gmail.com  Tue Jul 28 11:03:10 2009
From: andrewevansc at gmail.com (Andrew E)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 11:03:10 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] What makes a true Linux user?
In-Reply-To: <525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
Message-ID: <bd7bad4c0907281103g6c1dbe86i97a761e81e27990f@mail.gmail.com>

Answer 1: I would say without a doubt that which brings us together more
than anything else is our dislike for the proprietary Windows operating
system (see SF LUG logo at http://www.sf-lug.org/ ) . Second, our collective
identity is formed through our lust for free and open source baller software
that makes the world go 'round.

Andrew

P.S. Am I supposed to CC the list or should that go in the TO part...?



On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 10:47 AM, Edward Janne <tigakub at mac.com> wrote:

> Hi everyone. My name is Edward Janne and I'm an animation student at the
> Academy of Art University here in San Francisco. As a part of my curriculum
> I'm taking a cultural anthropology class and I elected to study the San
> Francisco Linux Users Group for my final paper. The theme of the paper is
> how being a Linux User informs identity through ways of speaking, categories
> of people and things, and common likes or dislikes. To gather this data I
> will post a series of questions to the mailing list. There are no wrong
> answers. My aim is to understand group identity from your point of view.
> Thank you all for your time.
>
> -edj
>
> Question 1: What makes a true Linux user?
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>
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From peterson.rohen at gmail.com  Tue Jul 28 11:06:17 2009
From: peterson.rohen at gmail.com (Rohen Peterson)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 11:06:17 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] What makes a true Linux user?
In-Reply-To: <525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
Message-ID: <beaa4af10907281106y1c1f6becx1936416c2307b1f2@mail.gmail.com>

I'd go with someone that uses Linux semi-regularly with the ability to log
in into the system and perform all tasks they need to perform, which the
exception of those dependent on non-Linux software/supported hardware. Oh,
and they do this willingly.

Rohen Peterson


On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 10:47, Edward Janne <tigakub at mac.com> wrote:

> Hi everyone. My name is Edward Janne and I'm an animation student at the
> Academy of Art University here in San Francisco. As a part of my curriculum
> I'm taking a cultural anthropology class and I elected to study the San
> Francisco Linux Users Group for my final paper. The theme of the paper is
> how being a Linux User informs identity through ways of speaking, categories
> of people and things, and common likes or dislikes. To gather this data I
> will post a series of questions to the mailing list. There are no wrong
> answers. My aim is to understand group identity from your point of view.
> Thank you all for your time.
>
> -edj
>
> Question 1: What makes a true Linux user?
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>
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From rick at linuxmafia.com  Tue Jul 28 11:07:50 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 11:07:50 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] What makes a true Linux	user?
In-Reply-To: <bd7bad4c0907281103g6c1dbe86i97a761e81e27990f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281103g6c1dbe86i97a761e81e27990f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090728180750.GU26829@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Andrew E (andrewevansc at gmail.com):

> Answer 1: I would say without a doubt that which brings us together more
> than anything else is our dislike for the proprietary Windows operating
> system (see SF LUG logo at http://www.sf-lug.org/ ) .

Microsoft-bashing, how very quaint.

Doesn't have a damned thing to do with Linux, though.




From andrewevansc at gmail.com  Tue Jul 28 11:15:55 2009
From: andrewevansc at gmail.com (Andrew E)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 11:15:55 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] What makes a true Linux user?
In-Reply-To: <20090728180750.GU26829@linuxmafia.com>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281103g6c1dbe86i97a761e81e27990f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728180750.GU26829@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <bd7bad4c0907281115j3750f77bue057af3840553846@mail.gmail.com>

LOL!!!! And your chemistry answer of elements and their percentages has
ANYTHING to do with Linux?! Wow. The questioner details that they are
interested in "group identity". Tell a Linux guru that she's gotta set up an
open source cart on Windows IIS server, and watch their reaction. It's
usually not a big smile...


On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 11:07 AM, Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com> wrote:

> Quoting Andrew E (andrewevansc at gmail.com):
>
> > Answer 1: I would say without a doubt that which brings us together more
> > than anything else is our dislike for the proprietary Windows operating
> > system (see SF LUG logo at http://www.sf-lug.org/ ) .
>
> Microsoft-bashing, how very quaint.
>
> Doesn't have a damned thing to do with Linux, though.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>
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From Blake.Haggerty at Sapphire.com  Tue Jul 28 11:17:50 2009
From: Blake.Haggerty at Sapphire.com (Blake Haggerty)
Date: 28 Jul 2009 14:17:50 -0400
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] What makes a true Linux user?
Message-ID: <1236154380.1248805070200.JavaMail.cfservice@webserver72>


I'd say its somebody who enjoys taking things apart, putting them back together, taking a look at the "guts" of things, building something of there own rather than purchasing the stores product. Some who likes to show off a little and say "look what I just did". Typically I think Linux people are not satisfied with what is availalbe on the commercial markets and they like to change, build and hack things to fit their needs, whether that be an operating system or a flash light. 


Blake Haggerty
 
Permanent Placement Specialist

Sapphire Technologies U.S., a Randstad company

27 Maiden Lane

San Francisco, CA 94108

(p) (415) 788-8488

(f) (415) 788-2592

www.sapphirena.com

 




 

-----Original Message-----
From:Edward Janne tigakub at mac.com 
To: "sf-lug at linuxmafia.com" ;
Sent: Jul 28, 2009 10:48:33 AM
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] What makes a true Linux user?

Hi everyone. My name is Edward Janne and I'm an animation student at 
the Academy of Art University here in San Francisco. As a part of my 
curriculum I'm taking a cultural anthropology class and I elected to 
study the San Francisco Linux Users Group for my final paper. The 
theme of the paper is how being a Linux User informs identity through 
ways of speaking, categories of people and things, and common likes or 
dislikes. To gather this data I will post a series of questions to the 
mailing list. There are no wrong answers. My aim is to understand 
group identity from your point of view. Thank you all for your time. 

-edj 

Question 1: What makes a true Linux user? 

_______________________________________________ 
sf-lug mailing list 
sf-lug at linuxmafia.com 
http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug 


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From rick at linuxmafia.com  Tue Jul 28 11:21:13 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 11:21:13 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] What makes a true Linux	user?
In-Reply-To: <bd7bad4c0907281103g6c1dbe86i97a761e81e27990f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281103g6c1dbe86i97a761e81e27990f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090728182112.GV26829@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Andrew E (andrewevansc at gmail.com):

> see SF LUG logo at http://www.sf-lug.org/  

Andrew makes a point, though probably not the point he had in mind:  
The "LinuxKong image by Carol Benioff, concept by John Lowry" thing
on SF-LUG's Web page is, IMO, imaginative and nicely drawn but
unfortunate in theme:  It suggests that Linux is about (presumably
metaphorical) warfare against a legacy proprietary operating system.
It is not, and I personally rather resent getting lumped along with
the behaviour of people who never outgrew software-advocacy, which
is a disease of the zero-sum proprietary software world.

I would suggest that it'd be nice if SF-LUG could, at some point, re-do
that logo with a less embarrassing conception of some sort.




From slash5toaster at gmail.com  Tue Jul 28 11:22:22 2009
From: slash5toaster at gmail.com (Clyde Jones)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 11:22:22 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] What makes a true Linux user?
In-Reply-To: <bd7bad4c0907281115j3750f77bue057af3840553846@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281103g6c1dbe86i97a761e81e27990f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728180750.GU26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281115j3750f77bue057af3840553846@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <294686ad0907281122n451253f9j14e2714df15538e2@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 11:15, Andrew E<andrewevansc at gmail.com> wrote:
> LOL!!!! And your chemistry answer of elements and their percentages has
> ANYTHING to do with Linux?! Wow. The questioner details that they are
> interested in "group identity". Tell a Linux guru that she's gotta set up an
> open source cart on Windows IIS server, and watch their reaction. It's
> usually not a big smile...
>
Bah - any sysadmin will just balk at having to do work.  I agree with
Rick, once you get past the chest thumping and flag-waving, it's just
a tool.

I run Debian at home cause it does what I need.  I run things on
Windows at work because that is what is needed; I run other things on
Solaris cause that's what's best for that function.

I want a choice of tools.

-- 
We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With
our thoughts, we make the world.
-Buddha



From larry.cafiero at gmail.com  Tue Jul 28 11:24:22 2009
From: larry.cafiero at gmail.com (Larry Cafiero)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 11:24:22 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] What makes a true Linux user?
In-Reply-To: <bd7bad4c0907281115j3750f77bue057af3840553846@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281103g6c1dbe86i97a761e81e27990f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728180750.GU26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281115j3750f77bue057af3840553846@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7a0d56080907281124sd9a5a1bs258fc30e2bc81899@mail.gmail.com>

Ask 10 Linux users this question and you'll get 14 different answers.

I believe Rick's answer here, Andrew, points to the chemical makeup of
humans, but bear in mind that I failed biology three times in college.

A true Linux user is one who truly uses Linux.

Next question . . . [although forgive me for my morbid curiosity regarding
where this questionnaire may be heading]

Larry Cafiero

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Andrew E <andrewevansc at gmail.com> wrote:

> LOL!!!! And your chemistry answer of elements and their percentages has
> ANYTHING to do with Linux?! Wow. The questioner details that they are
> interested in "group identity". Tell a Linux guru that she's gotta set up an
> open source cart on Windows IIS server, and watch their reaction. It's
> usually not a big smile...
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 11:07 AM, Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com> wrote:
>
>> Quoting Andrew E (andrewevansc at gmail.com):
>>
>> > Answer 1: I would say without a doubt that which brings us together more
>> > than anything else is our dislike for the proprietary Windows operating
>> > system (see SF LUG logo at http://www.sf-lug.org/ ) .
>>
>> Microsoft-bashing, how very quaint.
>>
>> Doesn't have a damned thing to do with Linux, though.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sf-lug mailing list
>> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
>> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>
>
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From lx_rudis at sbcglobal.net  Tue Jul 28 11:25:14 2009
From: lx_rudis at sbcglobal.net (Lx Rudis)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 11:25:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sf-lug] quick report on saturday's Tech Fair
Message-ID: <234890.47223.qm@web82701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


g'day luggers:

as usual, the St. Anthony's Tech Fair was a success, and they continue to support and celebrate our involvement in the Computer Lab.  we were mentioned several times during the volunteer introductions and imvho we are _very_ well thought of by this group!

BIG THANKS to Christian who came in at 0830 to help me set up our small demo station, and also stayed for the duration.  

we had several interesting  visitors [including one of the main guys behind Ubuntu California LoCo], got about four people to sign up for the SF-LUG list and we distributed 5 'UCLoCo' copies of Xubuntu to interested users.  

the overall feel of the day was relaxed - it was more like an SF-LUG meeting than problem solving - most of our guests were experienced Linux users, and the remainder were there to experience the ease of using Ubuntu - one user spent most of his visit using firefox to study paleontology sites,  but accepted an Xubuntu disc at the end of it.  our group discussion centered on fairly geeky stuff - virtualization using Xen and other systems came up several times.

as with last time, we were well fed, with nuts, fruit and pastry breakfast in the morning, pizza in the afternoon.

future plans:
i've been invited to start making a regular presence at St. Anthony's, and have volunteered to do two 4 hour on-sites per month.  right now i'm working out what those days will be, and i'll report back as soon as the date/times are confirmed - as with the tech fair, i'd love to see SF-LUGgers involved in this project. 

initially, i'll just be inventorying and maintaining our small fleet of Ubuntu machines - 9 complete systems.  eventually i hope to add a couple of 'older' machines with smaller distros.
 
ryan [St. Anthony's onsite Lab manager] and i will be setting up a couple of dual-boot machines for their drop-in computer lab, this will likely happen about 4 weeks from now.  we're still putting together details on how we'll run this test, but our intent is to eventually install Ubuntu on _all_ their machines down there, effectively making their entire fleet dual-boot.

ryan has reported to me that an increasing number of their clients are using Ubuntu and other distros.  it's his opinion that these people will make it a point to come in if they know another Linux person is on-site.  if this happens, we'll either establish a "St. Anthony's LUG" or announce a 'third monthly meeting' for SF-LUg.

more reports as things of interest occur.  if any of this interests _you_ and you have any ideas for this project, please drop me a line!   

lx   



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Tue Jul 28 11:26:18 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 11:26:18 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] What makes a true Linux	user?
In-Reply-To: <bd7bad4c0907281115j3750f77bue057af3840553846@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281103g6c1dbe86i97a761e81e27990f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728180750.GU26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281115j3750f77bue057af3840553846@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090728182618.GW18928@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Andrew E (andrewevansc at gmail.com):

> LOL!!!! And your chemistry answer of elements and their percentages has
> ANYTHING to do with Linux?! 

I'd explain the joke, but unfortunately that tends to destroy the humour
value.  For others, presumably.

> The questioner details that they are interested in "group identity". 

I'm guessing that my calling into question the fundamental assumptions
behind the questionnaire's design and wording went right over your head.

> Tell a Linux guru....

Oh, _do_ tell me all about Linux gurus.  This'll be good, I'm sure.




From larry.cafiero at gmail.com  Tue Jul 28 11:27:38 2009
From: larry.cafiero at gmail.com (Larry Cafiero)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 11:27:38 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] What makes a true Linux user?
In-Reply-To: <294686ad0907281122n451253f9j14e2714df15538e2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281103g6c1dbe86i97a761e81e27990f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728180750.GU26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281115j3750f77bue057af3840553846@mail.gmail.com>
	<294686ad0907281122n451253f9j14e2714df15538e2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7a0d56080907281127q48249cc9ya493037dc9916ced@mail.gmail.com>

<open_can:beer><feet_on_desk> Well, let's just see where this is heading . .
. . </feet_on_desk></open_can:beer>

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 11:22 AM, Clyde Jones <slash5toaster at gmail.com>wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 11:15, Andrew E<andrewevansc at gmail.com> wrote:
> > LOL!!!! And your chemistry answer of elements and their percentages has
> > ANYTHING to do with Linux?! Wow. The questioner details that they are
> > interested in "group identity". Tell a Linux guru that she's gotta set up
> an
> > open source cart on Windows IIS server, and watch their reaction. It's
> > usually not a big smile...
> >
> Bah - any sysadmin will just balk at having to do work.  I agree with
> Rick, once you get past the chest thumping and flag-waving, it's just
> a tool.
>
> I run Debian at home cause it does what I need.  I run things on
> Windows at work because that is what is needed; I run other things on
> Solaris cause that's what's best for that function.
>
> I want a choice of tools.
>
> --
> We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With
> our thoughts, we make the world.
> -Buddha
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>
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From bliss at sfo.com  Tue Jul 28 11:31:35 2009
From: bliss at sfo.com (Bobbie Sellers)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 11:31:35 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] What makes a true Linux user?
In-Reply-To: <525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
Message-ID: <4A6F4407.4030405@sfo.com>

Edward Janne wrote:
> Hi everyone. My name is Edward Janne and I'm an animation student at 
> the Academy of Art University here in San Francisco. As a part of my 
> curriculum I'm taking a cultural anthropology class and I elected to 
> study the San Francisco Linux Users Group for my final paper. The 
> theme of the paper is how being a Linux User informs identity through 
> ways of speaking, categories of people and things, and common likes or 
> dislikes. To gather this data I will post a series of questions to the 
> mailing list. There are no wrong answers. My aim is to understand 
> group identity from your point of view. Thank you all for your time.
>
> -edj
>
> Question 1: What makes a true Linux user?

    Use of GNU/LInux among any other possible qualifiers.
    The user of Linux does not have to have great technical knowledge 
but is willing
to find out how to use those open source tools to the best of their ability.

    IMO
    later
    Bobbie Sellers




From peterson.rohen at gmail.com  Tue Jul 28 11:37:05 2009
From: peterson.rohen at gmail.com (Rohen Peterson)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 11:37:05 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] What makes a true Linux user?
In-Reply-To: <4A6F4407.4030405@sfo.com>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
	<4A6F4407.4030405@sfo.com>
Message-ID: <beaa4af10907281137l1564c830s32b7e7dc365b72f8@mail.gmail.com>

I think this question might need to be modified to "What are the
characteristics of a Linux user?"

Does this sound about right?

Rohen Peterson


On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 11:31, Bobbie Sellers <bliss at sfo.com> wrote:

> Edward Janne wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone. My name is Edward Janne and I'm an animation student at the
>> Academy of Art University here in San Francisco. As a part of my curriculum
>> I'm taking a cultural anthropology class and I elected to study the San
>> Francisco Linux Users Group for my final paper. The theme of the paper is
>> how being a Linux User informs identity through ways of speaking, categories
>> of people and things, and common likes or dislikes. To gather this data I
>> will post a series of questions to the mailing list. There are no wrong
>> answers. My aim is to understand group identity from your point of view.
>> Thank you all for your time.
>>
>> -edj
>>
>> Question 1: What makes a true Linux user?
>>
>
>   Use of GNU/LInux among any other possible qualifiers.
>   The user of Linux does not have to have great technical knowledge but is
> willing
> to find out how to use those open source tools to the best of their
> ability.
>
>   IMO
>   later
>   Bobbie Sellers
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>
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From andrewevansc at gmail.com  Tue Jul 28 11:38:47 2009
From: andrewevansc at gmail.com (Andrew E)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 11:38:47 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] What makes a true Linux user?
In-Reply-To: <20090728182618.GW18928@linuxmafia.com>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281103g6c1dbe86i97a761e81e27990f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728180750.GU26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281115j3750f77bue057af3840553846@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728182618.GW18928@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <bd7bad4c0907281138j306ac030j205ab4a606f69467@mail.gmail.com>

Questioner: notice the hostility and righteousness. Maybe that's an
occasional quality of a Linux user? Stuck up nerd?


On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 11:26 AM, Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com> wrote:

> Quoting Andrew E (andrewevansc at gmail.com):
>
> > LOL!!!! And your chemistry answer of elements and their percentages has
> > ANYTHING to do with Linux?!
>
> I'd explain the joke, but unfortunately that tends to destroy the humour
> value.  For others, presumably.
>
> > The questioner details that they are interested in "group identity".
>
> I'm guessing that my calling into question the fundamental assumptions
> behind the questionnaire's design and wording went right over your head.
>
> > Tell a Linux guru....
>
> Oh, _do_ tell me all about Linux gurus.  This'll be good, I'm sure.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>
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From kevinjsmith+lug at gmail.com  Tue Jul 28 11:45:34 2009
From: kevinjsmith+lug at gmail.com (Kevin J. Smith)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 11:45:34 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] What makes a true Linux user?
In-Reply-To: <bd7bad4c0907281138j306ac030j205ab4a606f69467@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281103g6c1dbe86i97a761e81e27990f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728180750.GU26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281115j3750f77bue057af3840553846@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728182618.GW18928@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281138j306ac030j205ab4a606f69467@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cd35dd0a0907281145gaaeedeche5b637cf8d47e7d7@mail.gmail.com>

(Dons Nomex suit)

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 11:38 AM, Andrew E <andrewevansc at gmail.com> wrote:

> Questioner: notice the hostility and righteousness. Maybe that's an
> occasional quality of a Linux user? Stuck up nerd?
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 11:26 AM, Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com> wrote:
>
>> Quoting Andrew E (andrewevansc at gmail.com):
>>
>> > LOL!!!! And your chemistry answer of elements and their percentages has
>> > ANYTHING to do with Linux?!
>>
>> I'd explain the joke, but unfortunately that tends to destroy the humour
>> value.  For others, presumably.
>>
>> > The questioner details that they are interested in "group identity".
>>
>> I'm guessing that my calling into question the fundamental assumptions
>> behind the questionnaire's design and wording went right over your head.
>>
>> > Tell a Linux guru....
>>
>> Oh, _do_ tell me all about Linux gurus.  This'll be good, I'm sure.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sf-lug mailing list
>> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
>> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>
>
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From larry.cafiero at gmail.com  Tue Jul 28 11:47:54 2009
From: larry.cafiero at gmail.com (Larry Cafiero)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 11:47:54 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] What makes a true Linux user?
In-Reply-To: <bd7bad4c0907281138j306ac030j205ab4a606f69467@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281103g6c1dbe86i97a761e81e27990f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728180750.GU26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281115j3750f77bue057af3840553846@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728182618.GW18928@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281138j306ac030j205ab4a606f69467@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7a0d56080907281147md49bdd9u372c666f0b3cd049@mail.gmail.com>

Allow me to go out on a limb and make the brazen assumption that the
questioner takes into account that the hostility and righteousness in
question (and it is questionable) is not necessarily a quality unique to
Linux users; possibly it's one that is shared with, oh I don't know,
humanity in general?

Sadly, the speed to which discussions like this degenerate, arguably, might
be a, ahem, "quality"

I sure would like to hear the next question . . . .

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 11:38 AM, Andrew E <andrewevansc at gmail.com> wrote:

> Questioner: notice the hostility and righteousness. Maybe that's an
> occasional quality of a Linux user? Stuck up nerd?
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 11:26 AM, Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com> wrote:
>
>> Quoting Andrew E (andrewevansc at gmail.com):
>>
>> > LOL!!!! And your chemistry answer of elements and their percentages has
>> > ANYTHING to do with Linux?!
>>
>> I'd explain the joke, but unfortunately that tends to destroy the humour
>> value.  For others, presumably.
>>
>> > The questioner details that they are interested in "group identity".
>>
>> I'm guessing that my calling into question the fundamental assumptions
>> behind the questionnaire's design and wording went right over your head.
>>
>> > Tell a Linux guru....
>>
>> Oh, _do_ tell me all about Linux gurus.  This'll be good, I'm sure.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sf-lug mailing list
>> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
>> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>
>
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From jackofnotrades at gmail.com  Tue Jul 28 11:48:42 2009
From: jackofnotrades at gmail.com (Jeff Bragg)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 11:48:42 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] What makes a true Linux user?
In-Reply-To: <bd7bad4c0907281138j306ac030j205ab4a606f69467@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281103g6c1dbe86i97a761e81e27990f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728180750.GU26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281115j3750f77bue057af3840553846@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728182618.GW18928@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281138j306ac030j205ab4a606f69467@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2f8a56f70907281148x40cfd6ecnc523b55eff702e90@mail.gmail.com>

@Andrew E:  How about we leave the ad hominem attack behind and focus on
helping the original questioner with his project.  You don't have to like or
agree with Rick, but he is faithfully debating the point without resorting
to flawed logical premises.  You registered your answer with the questioner,
now please keep your flame wars off-channel, because I really don't give a
damn about it.

For the record, I agree with Rick's original answer (the implications of
which should by now be obvious).

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 11:38 AM, Andrew E <andrewevansc at gmail.com> wrote:

> Questioner: notice the hostility and righteousness. Maybe that's an
> occasional quality of a Linux user? Stuck up nerd?
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 11:26 AM, Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com> wrote:
>
>> Quoting Andrew E (andrewevansc at gmail.com):
>>
>> > LOL!!!! And your chemistry answer of elements and their percentages has
>> > ANYTHING to do with Linux?!
>>
>> I'd explain the joke, but unfortunately that tends to destroy the humour
>> value.  For others, presumably.
>>
>> > The questioner details that they are interested in "group identity".
>>
>> I'm guessing that my calling into question the fundamental assumptions
>> behind the questionnaire's design and wording went right over your head.
>>
>> > Tell a Linux guru....
>>
>> Oh, _do_ tell me all about Linux gurus.  This'll be good, I'm sure.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sf-lug mailing list
>> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
>> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>
>
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From rick at linuxmafia.com  Tue Jul 28 11:59:17 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 11:59:17 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] What makes a true Linux	user?
In-Reply-To: <bd7bad4c0907281138j306ac030j205ab4a606f69467@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281103g6c1dbe86i97a761e81e27990f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728180750.GU26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281115j3750f77bue057af3840553846@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728182618.GW18928@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281138j306ac030j205ab4a606f69467@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090728185917.GX18928@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Andrew E (andrewevansc at gmail.com):

> Questioner: notice the hostility and righteousness. Maybe that's an
> occasional quality of a Linux user? Stuck up nerd?

Oh-oh!  You forgot to call me arrogant.  Which I'm pretty sure puts your
OS-advocacy licence for non-sequitur personal attacks at risk, as I'm
quite sure that's a mandatory component.

(I can't help noticing that you refer to me as a Linux user, presumably
in contrast to you.  Indeed, sonny, been using it as the foundation of my 
computing since '93, including to provide this mailing list facility to
SF-LUG.  Yr. welcome.)




From andrewevansc at gmail.com  Tue Jul 28 12:09:57 2009
From: andrewevansc at gmail.com (Andrew E)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 12:09:57 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] What makes a true Linux user?
In-Reply-To: <20090728185917.GX18928@linuxmafia.com>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281103g6c1dbe86i97a761e81e27990f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728180750.GU26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281115j3750f77bue057af3840553846@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728182618.GW18928@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281138j306ac030j205ab4a606f69467@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728185917.GX18928@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <bd7bad4c0907281209v650e3683h7ec2885ceb212dd6@mail.gmail.com>

I am currently writing from a Windows machine, so you got me there. I am 25,
so you probably have a couple decades on me. You've used Linux a lot longer
than me and I'm sure you could school me on scripts any day. And just
because I make more money than you doesn't give me the right to criticize,
so I will respectfully withhold my comments until the next exhilarating
question. And yes, thank you for your services hosting this, etc.



On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 11:59 AM, Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com> wrote:

> Quoting Andrew E (andrewevansc at gmail.com):
>
> > Questioner: notice the hostility and righteousness. Maybe that's an
> > occasional quality of a Linux user? Stuck up nerd?
>
> Oh-oh!  You forgot to call me arrogant.  Which I'm pretty sure puts your
> OS-advocacy licence for non-sequitur personal attacks at risk, as I'm
> quite sure that's a mandatory component.
>
> (I can't help noticing that you refer to me as a Linux user, presumably
> in contrast to you.  Indeed, sonny, been using it as the foundation of my
> computing since '93, including to provide this mailing list facility to
> SF-LUG.  Yr. welcome.)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>
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From david at sterryit.com  Tue Jul 28 12:13:14 2009
From: david at sterryit.com (david at sterryit.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 19:13:14 +0000
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] What makes a true Linux	user?
Message-ID: <1109835814-1248808393-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1957648157-@bxe1008.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

I think a linux user is best characterized by their ability to recognize power and utility as separate from familiarity. We constantly spend time learning new programs and configuration techniques that give us more power to do what we want. 

An extension of this is recognition of new licensing regimes that allow us to cooperatively build and maintain a massive amount of free software. Using free software licenses we are able to develop and service what the largest and most powerful software companies increasingly cannot. 

Thanks for the question. Next?

------Original Message------
From: Rick Moen
Sender: sf-lug-bounces at linuxmafia.com
To: sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
Subject: Re: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] What makes a true Linux	user?
Sent: Jul 28, 2009 11:59 AM

Quoting Andrew E (andrewevansc at gmail.com):

> Questioner: notice the hostility and righteousness. Maybe that's an
> occasional quality of a Linux user? Stuck up nerd?

Oh-oh!  You forgot to call me arrogant.  Which I'm pretty sure puts your
OS-advocacy licence for non-sequitur personal attacks at risk, as I'm
quite sure that's a mandatory component.

(I can't help noticing that you refer to me as a Linux user, presumably
in contrast to you.  Indeed, sonny, been using it as the foundation of my 
computing since '93, including to provide this mailing list facility to
SF-LUG.  Yr. welcome.)


_______________________________________________
sf-lug mailing list
sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug


Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

From maiwurd at gmail.com  Tue Jul 28 12:14:39 2009
From: maiwurd at gmail.com (mai wurd)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 12:14:39 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] sf-lug Digest, Vol 42, Issue 26
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1248807603.7209.sf-lug@linuxmafia.com>
References: <mailman.3.1248807603.7209.sf-lug@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <fb3a04160907281214r52199d03k7d7caf64652f03af@mail.gmail.com>

1. Re: [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] What makes a true Linux     user?

As can be seen by the responses to your inquiry. . . we are smart sometimes
elitist and in need of displaying this whenever we can. Hence the quest to
exhibit knowledge having nothing to do with what makes a Linux user a Linux
user.
Not to digress --- A Linux user tends to have been in youth the ones who
took everything apart to see how it works. Later having determined how some
things work asked ourselves how can we make it do ???? something that may
not have been its' original objective.

Now we have an almost infinite option for configuration in our OS [Linux]
WooooHoooooo !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 12:00 PM, <sf-lug-request at linuxmafia.com> wrote:

> Send sf-lug mailing list submissions to
>        sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>        http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>        sf-lug-request at linuxmafia.com
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>        sf-lug-owner at linuxmafia.com
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of sf-lug digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] What makes a true Linux     user?
>      (Rick Moen)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 11:59:17 -0700
> From: Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com>
> Subject: Re: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] What makes a true
>        Linux   user?
> To: sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> Message-ID: <20090728185917.GX18928 at linuxmafia.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Quoting Andrew E (andrewevansc at gmail.com):
>
> > Questioner: notice the hostility and righteousness. Maybe that's an
> > occasional quality of a Linux user? Stuck up nerd?
>
> Oh-oh!  You forgot to call me arrogant.  Which I'm pretty sure puts your
> OS-advocacy licence for non-sequitur personal attacks at risk, as I'm
> quite sure that's a mandatory component.
>
> (I can't help noticing that you refer to me as a Linux user, presumably
> in contrast to you.  Indeed, sonny, been using it as the foundation of my
> computing since '93, including to provide this mailing list facility to
> SF-LUG.  Yr. welcome.)
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>
>
> End of sf-lug Digest, Vol 42, Issue 26
> **************************************
>



-- 
Always think about positive affirmations before going to sleep. This spirit
guides our subconscious as we sleep and creates our reality.
Giving thanks, for that which has not happened yet, allows a spirit/life
pattern to manifest in our lives.
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From jackofnotrades at gmail.com  Tue Jul 28 12:23:45 2009
From: jackofnotrades at gmail.com (Jeff Bragg)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 12:23:45 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] What makes a true Linux user?
In-Reply-To: <bd7bad4c0907281209v650e3683h7ec2885ceb212dd6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281103g6c1dbe86i97a761e81e27990f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728180750.GU26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281115j3750f77bue057af3840553846@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728182618.GW18928@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281138j306ac030j205ab4a606f69467@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728185917.GX18928@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281209v650e3683h7ec2885ceb212dd6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2f8a56f70907281223x7b3142bei2fdb07ebadbfd349@mail.gmail.com>

> And just because I make more money than you doesn't give me the right to
> criticize


You seem to make a lot of assumptions.

Again, please, keep it off-channel.  This kind of commentary (from any side)
is really just adding noise, and I'm getting sick of feeling like I'm
sitting in a junior high class.
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From x351912 at gmail.com  Tue Jul 28 12:27:18 2009
From: x351912 at gmail.com (ted)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 15:27:18 -0400
Subject: [sf-lug] sf-lug Digest, Vol 42, Issue 26
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1248807603.7209.sf-lug@linuxmafia.com>
References: <mailman.3.1248807603.7209.sf-lug@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <1248809238.3265.1.camel@unknown>

>    1. Re: [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] What makes a true Linux	user?
>       (Rick Moen)

Can we skip the the part where one party calls the other party Hitler?

I am a true linux user. I use linux at home and at the office. 

Ted (not a linux guru) 
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From rick at linuxmafia.com  Tue Jul 28 12:53:58 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 12:53:58 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] What makes a true Linux	user?
In-Reply-To: <525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20090728195358.GW26829@linuxmafia.com>

Taking a more direct swing at the question posed:

Quoting Edward Janne (tigakub at mac.com):

> Question 1: What makes a true Linux user?

"Mu."  Your question cannot rightly be answered as posed, because it
rests on incorrect assumptions.
(http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/M/mu.html)


The concept of "true Linux user" comes across as assuming that Linux is
necessarily some sort of ideological cause.  This is not the case, and I
for one am really, really, _really_ tired of visitors assuming that it
is -- though the attitude has, thankfully, been refreshingly rare since
(1) the 1998 Netscape open-sourcing, (2) the shipment of Linux versions
of almost all SQL databases a couple of months later, and (3) the
revelation that corporate usage (among other places) of Linux and open
source was already very high and that they'd just not been telling the
truth about it.

So:  As several people have commented, Linux (meaning both the kernel
and the various distributions built on it) is a tool.  It has practical
value that benefits from long-term reliability on account of developer
culture, architecture, and legal considerations involving licensing.
There are undoubtedly a huge variety of other reasons some people
profess to like it, and reasons why other people profess to dislike it, 
including ideology (daft as that might be) or even liking or disliking
the colour of disc that it came on.  I.e., your notion of "group
identity" in this context, of shared normative values, is highly
questionable.

Would you approach a bunch of users of Milwaukee Tools Sawzalls, and
ask them what a "true Sawzall user" is, and what their "group identity"
is like?  They'd look at you like you might be a little strange.

Like the Sawzall, Linux (distribution or kernel) is a powerful tool.[1]
Unlike the Sawzall, Linux is far, far more complex and flexible in
application; hence, you find Linux user groups and not Sawzall ones.

Therefore, imagine me looking at you like you might be a little strange.
But perhaps you'd like to reconsider the basis of your question.


[1] It also has, more famously, been compared to Milwaukee's Hole-Hawg:
http://eccentric.cx/linux_hawg.pdf




From vpolitewebsiteguy at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 28 14:03:41 2009
From: vpolitewebsiteguy at yahoo.com (vincent polite)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 14:03:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] What makes a true Linux user?
In-Reply-To: <525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
Message-ID: <40549.13901.qm@web82808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Based on the emails exchanged, I wonder if a lack of social skills might be apart of the identity.




________________________________
From: Edward Janne <tigakub at mac.com>
To: sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 10:47:42 AM
Subject: [sf-lug]  [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] What makes a true Linux user?

Hi everyone. My name is Edward Janne and I'm an animation student at the Academy of Art University here in San Francisco. As a part of my curriculum I'm taking a cultural anthropology class and I elected to study the San Francisco Linux Users Group for my final paper. The theme of the paper is how being a Linux User informs identity through ways of speaking, categories of people and things, and common likes or dislikes. To gather this data I will post a series of questions to the mailing list. There are no wrong answers. My aim is to understand group identity from your point of view. Thank you all for your time.

-edj

Question 1: What makes a true Linux user?

_______________________________________________
sf-lug mailing list
sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
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From nbs at sonic.net  Tue Jul 28 14:17:02 2009
From: nbs at sonic.net (Bill Kendrick)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 14:17:02 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] What makes a true Linux user?
In-Reply-To: <40549.13901.qm@web82808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
	<40549.13901.qm@web82808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20090728211702.GB12322@sonic.net>

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 02:03:41PM -0700, vincent polite wrote:
>    Based on the emails exchanged, I wonder if a lack of social skills might
>    be apart of the identity.

No, that's simply "what's a true internet mailing list subscriber?" ;)

I have a true Linux user at home.  He's just over 2.5 years old, and
he uses our Roku Netflix Player (which happens to be a Linux-based device)
to watch Pink Panther and Kipper Cartoons, and Thomas the Tank Engine.

One of his first discoveries on the Roku, though, was the original
Star Trek, complete season 1.  So, unsurprisingly, he's also already
a Star Trek fan.

(Plus, I occasionally let him bang on my laptop to play with Tux Paint,
but he's still a bit young to be trusted with $1000 equipment.)

-bill!
(who now officially has more Linux _devices_ in the house than Linux computers:
two laptops vs Tivo, Netflix Player, NAS and GP2X.  Maybe the router, too,
not sure.  Don't care.  I just want things to work.)



From tigakub at mac.com  Tue Jul 28 14:17:37 2009
From: tigakub at mac.com (Edward Janne)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 14:17:37 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] How did you become a Linux user?
In-Reply-To: <bd7bad4c0907281138j306ac030j205ab4a606f69467@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281103g6c1dbe86i97a761e81e27990f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728180750.GU26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281115j3750f77bue057af3840553846@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728182618.GW18928@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281138j306ac030j205ab4a606f69467@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ACB436EB-9772-4F7D-B0BE-D72010D281B5@mac.com>

Wow! Thanks guys for your great responses! As far as my paper is  
concerned, there are no wrong answers. All points of view are  
valuable. No response is wrong, including those that question my  
approach or motivations. It is really about trying to see things from  
your subjective points of view and how they relate to group identity  
(in so far as one can be said to exist).

I forgot to mention in the first post that I will not use your real  
names, or post any personal information (beyond your responses to my  
questions) in my paper unless you specifically give me permission to  
do so. I will use names picked at random. If you would prefer I use  
your real name or any other identifier, please let me know.

I also must mention that the point of this study is not for me to be  
an aloof and disconnected observer, but to be a "participant- 
observer". That basically means that I have to acknowledge to myself  
that I cannot expect to be entirely impartial, and that by my very  
presence in the group, I will affect group dynamic to some degree.  
That's ok as long as I try my best to keep that to a minimum.

Here's the next question, but please continue to respond to the first  
one if you like.

-edj

Question 2: How did you become a Linux user?




From nbs at sonic.net  Tue Jul 28 14:23:41 2009
From: nbs at sonic.net (Bill Kendrick)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 14:23:41 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] How did you become a Linux
	user?
In-Reply-To: <ACB436EB-9772-4F7D-B0BE-D72010D281B5@mac.com>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281103g6c1dbe86i97a761e81e27990f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728180750.GU26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281115j3750f77bue057af3840553846@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728182618.GW18928@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281138j306ac030j205ab4a606f69467@mail.gmail.com>
	<ACB436EB-9772-4F7D-B0BE-D72010D281B5@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20090728212341.GC12322@sonic.net>


On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 02:17:37PM -0700, Edward Janne wrote:
> Question 2: How did you become a Linux user?

(1) Disgust at the poor design of Windows 3.1 and Windows 95, and hatred for
    the latter due to incredible frustration using it on a friend's laptop,
    and losing work.

(2) Inability afford Mac.

(3) Inability to program games on Windows or Mac, but figuring it out
    (via X-Window) on Solaris at school.  Discovery that "some 'Red Hat'
    thing" lets you run Linux on a comodity PC.  Ability afford a used P133
    for $300, right after graduating from college with a CS degree.

(4) Haven't looked back.  (Except some WinXP at a recent job, which was just
    horrid, and nearly as frustrating as Win95 was back in the late 1990s.)
    Go hooked on the Open Source / Free Software ideals, the ability to
    cheaply utilize hardware, and the communities I've become part of
    (and/or founded[*])


[*] I'm partially to blame for the creation of http://www.lugod.org/ &
    almost entirely to blame for http://www.tuxpaint.org/
    (The latter was also formed thanks to the former. ;^) )

-- 
-bill!
Sent from my computer



From bliss at sfo.com  Tue Jul 28 15:10:46 2009
From: bliss at sfo.com (Bobbie Sellers)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 15:10:46 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] How did you become a Linux
 user?
In-Reply-To: <ACB436EB-9772-4F7D-B0BE-D72010D281B5@mac.com>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>	<bd7bad4c0907281103g6c1dbe86i97a761e81e27990f@mail.gmail.com>	<20090728180750.GU26829@linuxmafia.com>	<bd7bad4c0907281115j3750f77bue057af3840553846@mail.gmail.com>	<20090728182618.GW18928@linuxmafia.com>	<bd7bad4c0907281138j306ac030j205ab4a606f69467@mail.gmail.com>
	<ACB436EB-9772-4F7D-B0BE-D72010D281B5@mac.com>
Message-ID: <4A6F7766.6010705@sfo.com>

Edward Janne wrote:
> Wow! Thanks guys for your great responses! As far as my paper is 
> concerned, there are no wrong answers. All points of view are 
> valuable. No response is wrong, including those that question my 
> approach or motivations. It is really about trying to see things from 
> your subjective points of view and how they relate to group identity 
> (in so far as one can be said to exist).
>
> I forgot to mention in the first post that I will not use your real 
> names, or post any personal information (beyond your responses to my 
> questions) in my paper unless you specifically give me permission to 
> do so. I will use names picked at random. If you would prefer I use 
> your real name or any other identifier, please let me know.
>
> I also must mention that the point of this study is not for me to be 
> an aloof and disconnected observer, but to be a 
> "participant-observer". That basically means that I have to 
> acknowledge to myself that I cannot expect to be entirely impartial, 
> and that by my very presence in the group, I will affect group dynamic 
> to some degree. That's ok as long as I try my best to keep that to a 
> minimum.
>
> Here's the next question, but please continue to respond to the first 
> one if you like.
>
> -edj
>
> Question 2: How did you become a Linux user?

    My friends (some of them at  least) on Team Amiga Mailing List were 
starting to use
Linux and one sent me copies of the ISO files so that I could use a 
Windows laptop since
deceased to make Linux installation disks.
    I had been an Amiga User and the company Commodore Business Machines 
was ruined
by the owner so there would be no more new Amiga computers and mine had 
started to
wear out.

    later
    Bobbie Sellers



From peterson.rohen at gmail.com  Tue Jul 28 15:11:08 2009
From: peterson.rohen at gmail.com (Rohen Peterson)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 15:11:08 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] How did you become a Linux
	user?
In-Reply-To: <ACB436EB-9772-4F7D-B0BE-D72010D281B5@mac.com>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281103g6c1dbe86i97a761e81e27990f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728180750.GU26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281115j3750f77bue057af3840553846@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728182618.GW18928@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281138j306ac030j205ab4a606f69467@mail.gmail.com>
	<ACB436EB-9772-4F7D-B0BE-D72010D281B5@mac.com>
Message-ID: <beaa4af10907281511h19de8e7ds40d009d58b4d0e75@mail.gmail.com>

Question #2:

I heard about Linux and decided to check it out by diving in head first. I
found out it was easier to manage my C and Java coding, applications for
everything were free and fairly good, and I got interested by messing around
with a new type of toy. I got addicted to the options, the security, the
infatuation with the ability to fix software bugs myself.

Rohen Peterson


On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 14:17, Edward Janne <tigakub at mac.com> wrote:

> Wow! Thanks guys for your great responses! As far as my paper is concerned,
> there are no wrong answers. All points of view are valuable. No response is
> wrong, including those that question my approach or motivations. It is
> really about trying to see things from your subjective points of view and
> how they relate to group identity (in so far as one can be said to exist).
>
> I forgot to mention in the first post that I will not use your real names,
> or post any personal information (beyond your responses to my questions) in
> my paper unless you specifically give me permission to do so. I will use
> names picked at random. If you would prefer I use your real name or any
> other identifier, please let me know.
>
> I also must mention that the point of this study is not for me to be an
> aloof and disconnected observer, but to be a "participant-observer". That
> basically means that I have to acknowledge to myself that I cannot expect to
> be entirely impartial, and that by my very presence in the group, I will
> affect group dynamic to some degree. That's ok as long as I try my best to
> keep that to a minimum.
>
> Here's the next question, but please continue to respond to the first one
> if you like.
>
> -edj
>
> Question 2: How did you become a Linux user?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>
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From rick at linuxmafia.com  Tue Jul 28 15:14:38 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 15:14:38 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] How did you become a
	Linux	user?
In-Reply-To: <ACB436EB-9772-4F7D-B0BE-D72010D281B5@mac.com>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281103g6c1dbe86i97a761e81e27990f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728180750.GU26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281115j3750f77bue057af3840553846@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728182618.GW18928@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281138j306ac030j205ab4a606f69467@mail.gmail.com>
	<ACB436EB-9772-4F7D-B0BE-D72010D281B5@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20090728221437.GY26829@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Edward Janne (tigakub at mac.com):

> Wow! Thanks guys for your great responses! As far as my paper is  
> concerned, there are no wrong answers. All points of view are valuable. 
> No response is wrong, including those that question my approach or 
> motivations.

However, in the name of saving wastes of time and trouble, please
consider asking only questions not founded in erroneous assumptions.
In my experience, most people here are generous with their free time,
but need to expend it where it will do the most good.

> I forgot to mention in the first post that I will not use your real  
> names, or post any personal information (beyond your responses to my  
> questions) in my paper unless you specifically give me permission to do 
> so.

I deliberately put my real name and e-mail address at the bottom of
everything I say online for a good reason:  If I'm willing to say it at
all, then I'm willing to stand behind it by name.  So, yes, if you quote
me, please do use my real name.

> I also must mention that the point of this study is not for me to be an 
> aloof and disconnected observer, but to be a "participant-observer". That 
> basically means that I have to acknowledge to myself that I cannot expect 
> to be entirely impartial, and that by my very presence in the group, I 
> will affect group dynamic to some degree.

Hey, there's a long history of that, e.g., when the Samoans played 
pranks on Margaret Meade because they thought she was a credulous prat,
and she reported them as real research results.  ;->  

> Here's the next question, but please continue to respond to the first  
> one if you like.
>
> -edj
>
> Question 2: How did you become a Linux user?

Hey, Edward, shouldn't you be conducting this survey _off_ the mailing
list?

I mean, you're "affecting group dynamic" in the sense of basically
taking over the mailing list to run your survey _on the list_.
Traditionally, students seeking to get Linux user group participation on
a survey put up a Web form somewhere and ask members to take the quiz
_there_.





From chinku.linux at gmail.com  Tue Jul 28 15:09:50 2009
From: chinku.linux at gmail.com (chaitanya mehandru)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 03:39:50 +0530
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] How did you become a Linux
	user?
In-Reply-To: <ACB436EB-9772-4F7D-B0BE-D72010D281B5@mac.com>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281103g6c1dbe86i97a761e81e27990f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728180750.GU26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281115j3750f77bue057af3840553846@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728182618.GW18928@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281138j306ac030j205ab4a606f69467@mail.gmail.com>
	<ACB436EB-9772-4F7D-B0BE-D72010D281B5@mac.com>
Message-ID: <24b40b2b0907281509we0ed4c8w3b45ef3c21f010c@mail.gmail.com>

I became a linux user in a way similar to when someone joins a university--
I mean we are among intellectual people and then we start trying new things
and get interested more once we get to know about them. In addition, I
recently wrote a paper on Power/Performance benefits of using Linux and
open-source software on Mobile Internet Devices and exploring newer usage
models. I have been using linux for 2years now and want to keep adding years
to it.....Linux is amazing to me!!!


On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 2:47 AM, Edward Janne <tigakub at mac.com> wrote:

> Wow! Thanks guys for your great responses! As far as my paper is concerned,
> there are no wrong answers. All points of view are valuable. No response is
> wrong, including those that question my approach or motivations. It is
> really about trying to see things from your subjective points of view and
> how they relate to group identity (in so far as one can be said to exist).
>
> I forgot to mention in the first post that I will not use your real names,
> or post any personal information (beyond your responses to my questions) in
> my paper unless you specifically give me permission to do so. I will use
> names picked at random. If you would prefer I use your real name or any
> other identifier, please let me know.
>
> I also must mention that the point of this study is not for me to be an
> aloof and disconnected observer, but to be a "participant-observer". That
> basically means that I have to acknowledge to myself that I cannot expect to
> be entirely impartial, and that by my very presence in the group, I will
> affect group dynamic to some degree. That's ok as long as I try my best to
> keep that to a minimum.
>
> Here's the next question, but please continue to respond to the first one
> if you like.
>
> -edj
>
> Question 2: How did you become a Linux user?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>
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From pmpope at gmail.com  Tue Jul 28 16:44:04 2009
From: pmpope at gmail.com (PMPope)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 16:44:04 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] What makes a true Linux user?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.192.1248819279.1647.sf-lug@linuxmafia.com>
References: <mailman.192.1248819279.1647.sf-lug@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <4A6F8D44.3020800@gmail.com>

as you areDear Mr. Janne, <tigakub at mac.com>elected to study the San 
Francisco Linux Users,as you are, I am thrilled you have come to examine 
us. Yet also to put yourself to task, as we say, and you, yourself so 
aptly state:

/but to be a>  "participant-observer"
/

Please go here first: GNU GPL (http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html) & 
RTFM, as LXers must often do the same. This isn't because, poor beasts 
that we are, we have forgotten what we have read yesterday. The 
innovations distributed inside the non-proprietary & Open Source w0rld 
of LX & FSF & Mozilla (did you notice how they all seem to meld into an 
intoxicating concoction?) are far more dynamic than those of the 
corporate overlords, who bequeath updates and patches like handing out 
'Scooby snacks' (i realize I may be dating myself with that one;^).

Here is an info page: http://www.linux.org/info/

& here the Debian page: http://www.debian.org {One of my personal faves}

But don't feel like you NEED to use that one {It's an acquired taste}. 
You can use ANY distro you like: http://distrowatch.com OR get some news 
about various distros http://www.distrowatch.net

& if all of this is somehow TOO OVERWHELMING you could simply come back 
to this SF-Lug or any Lug (Worldwide) and ask for some more or different 
help, in any language you could possibly speak. We're here for ya, pal. 
This is called community.

Peace

PMPope




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From rick at linuxmafia.com  Tue Jul 28 17:32:40 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 17:32:40 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] How did you become a
	Linux	user?
In-Reply-To: <20090728221437.GY26829@linuxmafia.com>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281103g6c1dbe86i97a761e81e27990f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728180750.GU26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281115j3750f77bue057af3840553846@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728182618.GW18928@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281138j306ac030j205ab4a606f69467@mail.gmail.com>
	<ACB436EB-9772-4F7D-B0BE-D72010D281B5@mac.com>
	<20090728221437.GY26829@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <20090729003240.GA15655@linuxmafia.com>


1. Edward, how long _is_ your questionnaire?

2.  As long as you're plowing onward:

Quoting Edward Janne (tigakub at mac.com):

> Question 2: How did you become a Linux user?

As stated, this question lacks context, i.e., we can't tell whether you
are asking _by what method_ each respondent became a Linux user, or why.  
The literal-minded interpretation of your question is the former one, i.e.,
that you're asking after the mechanics of initially installing and
running Linux -- but that doesn't make a great deal of sense.  Why on
earth would you want to know?  What possible use would you (or your
professor) have for that information?  Don't you also need to know
_when_?  If you do, why don't you say so?

And, actually, the question also fails to say what you mean by "become a
Linux user".  Do you mean "used a shell account on a Linux machine"?  Do
you mean "installed a Linux distribution"?  Do you mean "used in any way
a device that runs Linux"?

Hundreds of millions of people use devices that run Linux, including all
TiVo users, all Palm Pre users, all Google G1 users, all Motorola RAZRv6
users, all users of the Google search engine, users of many and perhaps
most of the world's Web servers, and pretty much anyone who's used
software that's done DNS queries.  Among others.


I first became _aware_ of being at that moment running processes on a
Linux machine in 1992, when I logged into a shell account on a friend's 
experimental machine.  I first constructed (i.e., software-loaded) a
Linux machine in 1993, using downloaded copies of H.J. Liu's boot and
root floppy images for constructing such systems.





From tigakub at mac.com  Tue Jul 28 18:41:35 2009
From: tigakub at mac.com (Edward Janne)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 18:41:35 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] How did you become
	a	Linux	user?
In-Reply-To: <20090729003240.GA15655@linuxmafia.com>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281103g6c1dbe86i97a761e81e27990f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728180750.GU26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281115j3750f77bue057af3840553846@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728182618.GW18928@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281138j306ac030j205ab4a606f69467@mail.gmail.com>
	<ACB436EB-9772-4F7D-B0BE-D72010D281B5@mac.com>
	<20090728221437.GY26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<20090729003240.GA15655@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <7B2E7036-4B1C-4417-82E4-030897D744C9@mac.com>

On Jul 28, 2009, at 5:32 PM, Rick Moen wrote:

> 1. Edward, how long _is_ your questionnaire?

I have six further questions. Some one suggested I post them one at a  
time, but perhaps in the interests of brevity I should simply post  
them all at once.

But I should like to wait to see if others feel this research is too  
disruptive.

> 2.  As long as you're plowing onward:

> Quoting Edward Janne (tigakub at mac.com):
>
>> Question 2: How did you become a Linux user?
>
> As stated, this question lacks context, i.e., we can't tell whether  
> you
> are asking _by what method_ each respondent became a Linux user, or  
> why.
> The literal-minded interpretation of your question is the former  
> one, i.e.,
> that you're asking after the mechanics of initially installing and
> running Linux -- but that doesn't make a great deal of sense.  Why on
> earth would you want to know?  What possible use would you (or your
> professor) have for that information?  Don't you also need to know
> _when_?  If you do, why don't you say so?

The aim is to obtain qualitative data which describes cultural  
characteristics, rather than quantitative data which often become  
meaningless statistics that tempt the researcher into drawing  
conclusions where none can really be made. Certainly "when" one first  
started using Linux could be considered an indicator of how familiar a  
user is with Linux, but doesn't really account for frequency or depth  
of use. Asking "how" someone first became a Linux user will reveal to  
me many things. Was it out of necessity? Was it out of curiosity? It  
goes a long way to revealing different types of Linux users, although  
of course not an exhaustive taxonomy.

And if the questions sound open ended and vague, that is how it should  
be. I am not supposed to steer the study one way or another, but to  
leave it up to the respondents to decide how they wish to respond. How  
you choose to interpret my questions is interesting in its own right.  
Your responses, for instance, have already answered several of my  
other questions.

> And, actually, the question also fails to say what you mean by  
> "become a
> Linux user".  Do you mean "used a shell account on a Linux  
> machine"?  Do
> you mean "installed a Linux distribution"?  Do you mean "used in any  
> way
> a device that runs Linux"?

You have identified three broad categories. I presume you consider all  
these to be Linux users in a narrow sense. Are there sub-groups within  
the Linux community? Do those who can rebuild the kernel regularly  
gather to guffaw at the antics of less proficient users?

> Hundreds of millions of people use devices that run Linux, including  
> all
> TiVo users, all Palm Pre users, all Google G1 users, all Motorola  
> RAZRv6
> users, all users of the Google search engine, users of many and  
> perhaps
> most of the world's Web servers, and pretty much anyone who's used
> software that's done DNS queries.  Among others.

It certainly never occurred to me that one may be a Linux user without  
even knowing it. Makes sense though, just as most iPhone users don't  
know they're using OS X, or even care for that matter. That will be  
fascinating to discuss in my paper. I'm especially interested to know  
how incidental or unwitting users are perceived by "true" (and I use  
this word tentatively) Linux users.

Questions that come to mind: Do you like or dislike the idea that some  
users are not even aware that they are using Linux? Is recognition of  
the platform important? Why?

> I first became _aware_ of being at that moment running processes on a
> Linux machine in 1992, when I logged into a shell account on a  
> friend's
> experimental machine.  I first constructed (i.e., software-loaded) a
> Linux machine in 1993, using downloaded copies of H.J. Liu's boot and
> root floppy images for constructing such systems.


That is very cool! How did it feel to do that? What do you think of  
how easy it is to install Linux now?

-edj




From sverma at sfsu.edu  Tue Jul 28 19:35:20 2009
From: sverma at sfsu.edu (Sameer Verma)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 19:35:20 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Fwd: Debian decides to adopt time-based release freezes
In-Reply-To: <20090729010802.GA29421@melusine.alphascorpii.net>
References: <20090729010802.GA29421@melusine.alphascorpii.net>
Message-ID: <5fb387c70907281935s179808f3j207db67a43605a5c@mail.gmail.com>

This is a major achievement.

Sameer

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Meike Reichle <meike at debian.org>
Date: Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 6:08 PM
Subject: Debian decides to adopt time-based release freezes
To: debian-announce at lists.debian.org


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Debian Project                                 http://www.debian.org/
Debian adopts time-based release freezes                 press at debian.org
July 29th, 2009                  http://www.debian.org/News/2009/20090729
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Debian decides to adopt time-based release freezes

The Debian project has decided to adopt a new policy of time-based
development freezes for future releases, on a two-year cycle. Freezes
will from now on happen in the December of every odd year, which means
that releases will from now on happen sometime in the first half of every
even year.  To that effect the next freeze will happen in December 2009,
with a release expected in spring 2010. The project chose December as a
suitable freeze date since spring releases proved successful for the
releases of Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 (codenamed "Etch") and Debian GNU/Linux
5.0 ("Lenny").

Time-based freezes will allow the Debian Project to blend the
predictability of time based releases with its well established policy of
feature based releases. The new freeze policy will provide better
predictability of releases for users of the Debian distribution, and also
allow Debian developers to do better long-term planning.  A two-year
release cycle will give more time for disruptive changes, reducing
inconveniences caused for users. Having predictable freezes should also
reduce overall freeze time.

Since Debian's last release happened on Feb. 14th 2009, there will only
be approximately a one year period until its next release, Debian
GNU/Linux 6.0 (codenamed "Squeeze").  This will be a one-time exception
to the two-year policy in order to get into the new time schedule. To
accommodate the needs of larger organisations and other users with a long
upgrade process, the Debian project commits to provide the possibility to
skip the upcoming release and do a skip-upgrade straight from Debian
GNU/Linux 5.0 ("Lenny") to Debian GNU/Linux 7.0 (not yet codenamed).

Although the next freeze is only a short time away, the Debian project
hopes to achieve several prominent goals with it. The most important are
multi-arch support, which will improve the installation of 32 bit
packages on 64 bit machines, and an optimised boot process for better
boot performance and reliability.

The new freeze policy was proposed and agreed during the Debian Project's
yearly conference, DebConf, which is currently taking place in Caceres,
Spain. The idea was well received among the attending project members.


About Debian
------------

The Debian Project is an association of Free Software developers who
volunteer their time and effort in order to produce the completely free
operating system Debian GNU/Linux.


Contact Information
-------------------

For further information, please visit the Debian web pages at
<http://www.debian.org/>, send mail to <press at debian.org>, or contact the
stable release team at <debian-release at lists.debian.org>



--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-announce-REQUEST at lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact
listmaster at lists.debian.org
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From rick at linuxmafia.com  Tue Jul 28 19:53:40 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 19:53:40 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] How did you become a
	Linux	user?
In-Reply-To: <7B2E7036-4B1C-4417-82E4-030897D744C9@mac.com>
References: <525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281103g6c1dbe86i97a761e81e27990f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728180750.GU26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281115j3750f77bue057af3840553846@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728182618.GW18928@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281138j306ac030j205ab4a606f69467@mail.gmail.com>
	<ACB436EB-9772-4F7D-B0BE-D72010D281B5@mac.com>
	<20090728221437.GY26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<20090729003240.GA15655@linuxmafia.com>
	<7B2E7036-4B1C-4417-82E4-030897D744C9@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20090729025340.GB18928@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Edward Janne (tigakub at mac.com):

> On Jul 28, 2009, at 5:32 PM, Rick Moen wrote:
>
>> 1. Edward, how long _is_ your questionnaire?
>
> I have six further questions. Some one suggested I post them one at a  
> time, but perhaps in the interests of brevity I should simply post them 
> all at once.
>
> But I should like to wait to see if others feel this research is too  
> disruptive.
>
>> 2.  As long as you're plowing onward:
>
>> Quoting Edward Janne (tigakub at mac.com):
>>
>>> Question 2: How did you become a Linux user?
>>
>> As stated, this question lacks context, i.e., we can't tell whether  
>> you
>> are asking _by what method_ each respondent became a Linux user, or  
>> why.
>> The literal-minded interpretation of your question is the former one, 
>> i.e.,
>> that you're asking after the mechanics of initially installing and
>> running Linux -- but that doesn't make a great deal of sense.  Why on
>> earth would you want to know?  What possible use would you (or your
>> professor) have for that information?  Don't you also need to know
>> _when_?  If you do, why don't you say so?
>
> The aim is to obtain qualitative data which describes cultural  
> characteristics, rather than quantitative data which often become  
> meaningless statistics that tempt the researcher into drawing  
> conclusions where none can really be made.

Again, this assumes there _are_ cultural characteristics that are
unambiguously characteristic of Linux use.  You seem mostly interested
in attitudinal characteristics, which strike me as particularly unlikely
to be findable.

> Asking "how" someone first became a Linux user will reveal to me 
> many things. Was it out of necessity? Was it out of curiosity? It goes a 
> long way to revealing different types of Linux users, although of course 
> not an exhaustive taxonomy.

Now, your intent is at least a little clearer.  Of course, you run the
risk of omitting data from members of the target audience who think it's
tacky and self-indulgent to run on at the mouth about themselves without
being able to think of a compelling reason.  ;->

> You have identified three broad categories. I presume you consider all  
> these to be Linux users in a narrow sense. Are there sub-groups within  
> the Linux community? 

Sure.  Self-assigned, other-assigned, delusional, real.  It's endless.
Why don't you have a look around?  That's a matter I'll return to, in a
moment.

> Do those who can rebuild the kernel regularly  
> gather to guffaw at the antics of less proficient users?

I assume this is a rhetorical question.  You can answer it yourself, by 
just looking.  

In fact, I figure you might be able to answer quite a lot of questions
you're likely to ask, just by looking.  You might consider saying what
you've done to try to find answers, before turning to tap limited
volunteer resources to answer them for you:  It helps reassure 
those volunteers that you're not just a sponge for answers, that you
respect our time.  We've learned over time that seeing at least a modest
effort to find things out correlates strongly with ability to learn.
Much as it would be nice to have time and energy to help everyone on
earth, life and time are limited, so one must concentrate one's efforts
where they're likely to do the most good.

You'll find more reasoning of that sort in the essay "How to Ask
Questions the Smart Way", written a decade ago by Eric S. Raymond and
some Scandinavian-American guy on the S.F. Peninsula whom I shave in the
mornings.

http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
or
http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Essays/smart-questions.html

Of course, the really awkward part is that volunteers' willingness to
help is, in general, targeted at people who've shown an interest in 
learning Linux in order to become proficient, with at least reasonable
likelihood that they'll stick around to help others in the same way,
further perpetuating the body of knowledge and understanding from which
the answerer also benefited in his/her day.  In other words, one common
participant answer to the "What's in it for me?  What justifies that 
expenditure of my time?" question is "To repay the debt of gratitude I
owe to the people who taught me".  

And the problem is:  You're not asking in that spirit.  You've basically
merely, instead, asked people to help you with your homework.


> That will be  fascinating to discuss in my paper. I'm especially
> interested to know  how incidental or unwitting users are perceived by
> "true" (and I use  this word tentatively) Linux users.

Variously, I'm sure.  E.g., it's wryly amusing to hear someone say
he/she could never possibly bother to learn how to use Linux while
frobbing a TiVo remote.  Rumours of the death of irony are at least
slightly exaggerated.

> Questions that come to mind: Do you like or dislike the idea that some  
> users are not even aware that they are using Linux? Is recognition of  
> the platform important? Why?

Personally, I've trained myself almost entirely out of the habit of
deciding whether I like or dislike particular parts of reality -- let
alone deciding that everyone else need to hear about it.  (A large
fraction of those of us who predate the Human Potential Movement still
cling stubbornly to the perspective that the world probably isn't about
us personally.)

I'm afraid that I'd need to approach those sorts of questions from a
process angle.  To explain, some people are process people; others are
not.  It's difficult to become proficient in technology if one does not
(or cannot, anyway) think in terms of process.

At a typical firm, you might hear a member of the sales department say
"The Web server is down.  Fix it."  This would fetch over, in due
course, a tired member of the IT staff, who might patiently ask "And
what exactly have you tested, that supports you assertion that the Web
server is down?"

That is a process question.  The salesman is not thinking process:
He/she has no means of distinguishing the Web server being down from the
DNS being unreachable, a routing problem, a hung Web browser, a loose
ethernet cable on his/her workstation, etc.

So:  When you ask "Is recognition of the platform important?", I
immediately think of the obvious process qualifier:  "Important to
_what_?"  If one is attempting to accomplish something in particular,
and somehow a particular individual's ignorance of the existence of
Linux in various places is an obstacle, then by definition the lack of
that recognition is important.  However, I'm not easily imaginng where
this concern could be relevant.


[Constructing an early Linux system:]

> That is very cool! How did it feel to do that? 

Seeing that it was sixteen years ago, I'm not sure I'd even be able to
accurately report how it felt.  

> What do you think of how easy it is to install Linux now?

That question's not just open-ended.  It's sort of gaping skywards.  ;->

-- 
Rick Moen              "The Internet sees your competence and wisdom as damage, 
rick at linuxmafia.com    and will route around it."  -- Anil Dash
                       http://twitter.com/anildash/status/2897466042



From sverma at sfsu.edu  Tue Jul 28 20:00:48 2009
From: sverma at sfsu.edu (Sameer Verma)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 20:00:48 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Hannah Montana Linux?
Message-ID: <5fb387c70907282000v6a44e2c7hb3d4224c2a916cf1@mail.gmail.com>

Just saw this and fell off my chair laughing!
http://hannahmontana.sourceforge.net/

Sameer
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From jim at well.com  Wed Jul 29 08:12:12 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 08:12:12 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] What makes a true Linux	user?
In-Reply-To: <525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
Message-ID: <1248880332.6860.74.camel@jim-laptop>


   a linux user is someone who uses linux on a 
regular basis, the definition might include a 
stipulation with respect to some purpose. 
   i say get rid of the word "true" in your 
question. 



On Tue, 2009-07-28 at 10:47 -0700, Edward Janne wrote:
> Hi everyone. My name is Edward Janne and I'm an animation student at  
> the Academy of Art University here in San Francisco. As a part of my  
> curriculum I'm taking a cultural anthropology class and I elected to  
> study the San Francisco Linux Users Group for my final paper. The  
> theme of the paper is how being a Linux User informs identity through  
> ways of speaking, categories of people and things, and common likes or  
> dislikes. To gather this data I will post a series of questions to the  
> mailing list. There are no wrong answers. My aim is to understand  
> group identity from your point of view. Thank you all for your time.
> 
> -edj
> 
> Question 1: What makes a true Linux user?
> 
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
> 




From jim at well.com  Wed Jul 29 08:14:32 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 08:14:32 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] What makes a true	Linux	user?
In-Reply-To: <20090728180315.GT26829@linuxmafia.com>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
	<20090728180315.GT26829@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <1248880472.6860.78.camel@jim-laptop>

On Tue, 2009-07-28 at 11:03 -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> Quoting Edward Janne (tigakub at mac.com):
> 
> > Question 1: What makes a true Linux user?
> 
> 65% oxygen, 18% carbon, 10% hydrogen, 3% nitrogen, 1.5% calcium, 1%
> phosphorus, 0.35% potassium, 0.25% sulphur, 0.15% sodium, and 0.05%
> magnesium, the remaining 0.7% being a mixture of copper, zinc, selenium,
> molybdenum, fluorine, chlorine, iodine, manganese, cobalt, and iron,
> plus trace amounts of lithium, strontium, aluminum, silicon, lead,
> vanadium, arsenic, and bromine.
i believe there are trace amounts of gold as well. 

> 
> (Reference: H. A. Harper, V. W. Rodwell, P. A. Mayes, _Review of
> Physiological Chemistry_, 16th ed., Lange Medical Publications, Los
> Altos, CA 1977.)
> 




From jim at well.com  Wed Jul 29 08:20:03 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 08:20:03 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] What makes a true	Linux	user?
In-Reply-To: <20090728182112.GV26829@linuxmafia.com>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281103g6c1dbe86i97a761e81e27990f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728182112.GV26829@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <1248880803.6860.83.camel@jim-laptop>


   first negative criticism of the image i know of, 
and sensible. my thanks. anyone got replacement 
suggestions? 
jim 


On Tue, 2009-07-28 at 11:21 -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> Quoting Andrew E (andrewevansc at gmail.com):
> 
> > see SF LUG logo at http://www.sf-lug.org/  
> 
> Andrew makes a point, though probably not the point he had in mind:  
> The "LinuxKong image by Carol Benioff, concept by John Lowry" thing
> on SF-LUG's Web page is, IMO, imaginative and nicely drawn but
> unfortunate in theme:  It suggests that Linux is about (presumably
> metaphorical) warfare against a legacy proprietary operating system.
> It is not, and I personally rather resent getting lumped along with
> the behaviour of people who never outgrew software-advocacy, which
> is a disease of the zero-sum proprietary software world.
> 
> I would suggest that it'd be nice if SF-LUG could, at some point, re-do
> that logo with a less embarrassing conception of some sort.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
> 




From rigelc at gmail.com  Wed Jul 29 08:21:54 2009
From: rigelc at gmail.com (Rigel Christian)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 11:21:54 -0400
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] What makes a true Linux user?
In-Reply-To: <1248880472.6860.78.camel@jim-laptop>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
	<20090728180315.GT26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<1248880472.6860.78.camel@jim-laptop>
Message-ID: <d47aa47d0907290821r211620fcyb5b157cf24f0278e@mail.gmail.com>

strange that the putative chemical makeup of a human does not appear
to include any of the most abundant element in the universe -
stupidity

On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 11:14 AM, jim<jim at well.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-07-28 at 11:03 -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
>> Quoting Edward Janne (tigakub at mac.com):
>>
>> > Question 1: What makes a true Linux user?
>>
>> 65% oxygen, 18% carbon, 10% hydrogen, 3% nitrogen, 1.5% calcium, 1%
>> phosphorus, 0.35% potassium, 0.25% sulphur, 0.15% sodium, and 0.05%
>> magnesium, the remaining 0.7% being a mixture of copper, zinc, selenium,
>> molybdenum, fluorine, chlorine, iodine, manganese, cobalt, and iron,
>> plus trace amounts of lithium, strontium, aluminum, silicon, lead,
>> vanadium, arsenic, and bromine.
> i believe there are trace amounts of gold as well.
>
>>
>> (Reference: H. A. Harper, V. W. Rodwell, P. A. Mayes, _Review of
>> Physiological Chemistry_, 16th ed., Lange Medical Publications, Los
>> Altos, CA 1977.)
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>



From jim at well.com  Wed Jul 29 08:22:45 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 08:22:45 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] quick report on saturday's Tech Fair
In-Reply-To: <234890.47223.qm@web82701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <234890.47223.qm@web82701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1248880965.6860.85.camel@jim-laptop>



what kind of help do you need and whom do we 
contact to get involved? 


On Tue, 2009-07-28 at 11:25 -0700, Lx Rudis wrote:
> g'day luggers:
> 
> as usual, the St. Anthony's Tech Fair was a success, and they continue to support and celebrate our involvement in the Computer Lab.  we were mentioned several times during the volunteer introductions and imvho we are _very_ well thought of by this group!
> 
> BIG THANKS to Christian who came in at 0830 to help me set up our small demo station, and also stayed for the duration.  
> 
> we had several interesting  visitors [including one of the main guys behind Ubuntu California LoCo], got about four people to sign up for the SF-LUG list and we distributed 5 'UCLoCo' copies of Xubuntu to interested users.  
> 
> the overall feel of the day was relaxed - it was more like an SF-LUG meeting than problem solving - most of our guests were experienced Linux users, and the remainder were there to experience the ease of using Ubuntu - one user spent most of his visit using firefox to study paleontology sites,  but accepted an Xubuntu disc at the end of it.  our group discussion centered on fairly geeky stuff - virtualization using Xen and other systems came up several times.
> 
> as with last time, we were well fed, with nuts, fruit and pastry breakfast in the morning, pizza in the afternoon.
> 
> future plans:
> i've been invited to start making a regular presence at St. Anthony's, and have volunteered to do two 4 hour on-sites per month.  right now i'm working out what those days will be, and i'll report back as soon as the date/times are confirmed - as with the tech fair, i'd love to see SF-LUGgers involved in this project. 
> 
> initially, i'll just be inventorying and maintaining our small fleet of Ubuntu machines - 9 complete systems.  eventually i hope to add a couple of 'older' machines with smaller distros.
>  
> ryan [St. Anthony's onsite Lab manager] and i will be setting up a couple of dual-boot machines for their drop-in computer lab, this will likely happen about 4 weeks from now.  we're still putting together details on how we'll run this test, but our intent is to eventually install Ubuntu on _all_ their machines down there, effectively making their entire fleet dual-boot.
> 
> ryan has reported to me that an increasing number of their clients are using Ubuntu and other distros.  it's his opinion that these people will make it a point to come in if they know another Linux person is on-site.  if this happens, we'll either establish a "St. Anthony's LUG" or announce a 'third monthly meeting' for SF-LUg.
> 
> more reports as things of interest occur.  if any of this interests _you_ and you have any ideas for this project, please drop me a line!   
> 
> lx   
> 
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
> 




From jim at well.com  Wed Jul 29 08:37:57 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 08:37:57 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] How did you become a
	Linux	user?
In-Reply-To: <ACB436EB-9772-4F7D-B0BE-D72010D281B5@mac.com>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281103g6c1dbe86i97a761e81e27990f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728180750.GU26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281115j3750f77bue057af3840553846@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728182618.GW18928@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281138j306ac030j205ab4a606f69467@mail.gmail.com>
	<ACB436EB-9772-4F7D-B0BE-D72010D281B5@mac.com>
Message-ID: <1248881877.6860.95.camel@jim-laptop>


[top posting: how did you become a linux user?] 
   exposure to unix (bsd and at&t), exposure to 
windows 1.0 and forward, exposure to microsoft 
business practices and news that microsoft was 
convicted on all 22 charges of criminal business 
practices. 
   the richness of the unix command set and the 
beauty of the philosophy of small, single-purpose 
programs contrasted well against the continued 
clunkiness of windows releases; that contrast 
along with the outrageous immorality of microsoft 
practices made linux an attractive choice (in the 
early 1990s). notably, linux has improved well 
in its successive releases, which vindicates my 
choice of collaborative, community oriented 
software development. 



On Tue, 2009-07-28 at 14:17 -0700, Edward Janne wrote:
> Wow! Thanks guys for your great responses! As far as my paper is  
> concerned, there are no wrong answers. All points of view are  
> valuable. No response is wrong, including those that question my  
> approach or motivations. It is really about trying to see things from  
> your subjective points of view and how they relate to group identity  
> (in so far as one can be said to exist).
> 
> I forgot to mention in the first post that I will not use your real  
> names, or post any personal information (beyond your responses to my  
> questions) in my paper unless you specifically give me permission to  
> do so. I will use names picked at random. If you would prefer I use  
> your real name or any other identifier, please let me know.
> 
> I also must mention that the point of this study is not for me to be  
> an aloof and disconnected observer, but to be a "participant- 
> observer". That basically means that I have to acknowledge to myself  
> that I cannot expect to be entirely impartial, and that by my very  
> presence in the group, I will affect group dynamic to some degree.  
> That's ok as long as I try my best to keep that to a minimum.
> 
> Here's the next question, but please continue to respond to the first  
> one if you like.
> 
> -edj
> 
> Question 2: How did you become a Linux user?
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
> 




From jim at well.com  Wed Jul 29 08:50:06 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 08:50:06 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] How did you
	become	a	Linux	user?
In-Reply-To: <7B2E7036-4B1C-4417-82E4-030897D744C9@mac.com>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281103g6c1dbe86i97a761e81e27990f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728180750.GU26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281115j3750f77bue057af3840553846@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728182618.GW18928@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281138j306ac030j205ab4a606f69467@mail.gmail.com>
	<ACB436EB-9772-4F7D-B0BE-D72010D281B5@mac.com>
	<20090728221437.GY26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<20090729003240.GA15655@linuxmafia.com>
	<7B2E7036-4B1C-4417-82E4-030897D744C9@mac.com>
Message-ID: <1248882606.6860.104.camel@jim-laptop>



   your questions are not disruptive in my 
mind. i like that people are interacting 
over your questions--it's interesting to 
see the variety. my take is that it will be 
better to have the questions one at a time 
(in separate emails), so that each discussion 
can be tracked separately. 
jim 


On Tue, 2009-07-28 at 18:41 -0700, Edward Janne wrote:
> On Jul 28, 2009, at 5:32 PM, Rick Moen wrote:
> 
> > 1. Edward, how long _is_ your questionnaire?
> 
> I have six further questions. Some one suggested I post them one at a  
> time, but perhaps in the interests of brevity I should simply post  
> them all at once.
> 
> But I should like to wait to see if others feel this research is too  
> disruptive.
> 
> > 2.  As long as you're plowing onward:
> 
> > Quoting Edward Janne (tigakub at mac.com):
> >
> >> Question 2: How did you become a Linux user?
> >
> > As stated, this question lacks context, i.e., we can't tell whether  
> > you
> > are asking _by what method_ each respondent became a Linux user, or  
> > why.
> > The literal-minded interpretation of your question is the former  
> > one, i.e.,
> > that you're asking after the mechanics of initially installing and
> > running Linux -- but that doesn't make a great deal of sense.  Why on
> > earth would you want to know?  What possible use would you (or your
> > professor) have for that information?  Don't you also need to know
> > _when_?  If you do, why don't you say so?
> 
> The aim is to obtain qualitative data which describes cultural  
> characteristics, rather than quantitative data which often become  
> meaningless statistics that tempt the researcher into drawing  
> conclusions where none can really be made. Certainly "when" one first  
> started using Linux could be considered an indicator of how familiar a  
> user is with Linux, but doesn't really account for frequency or depth  
> of use. Asking "how" someone first became a Linux user will reveal to  
> me many things. Was it out of necessity? Was it out of curiosity? It  
> goes a long way to revealing different types of Linux users, although  
> of course not an exhaustive taxonomy.
> 
> And if the questions sound open ended and vague, that is how it should  
> be. I am not supposed to steer the study one way or another, but to  
> leave it up to the respondents to decide how they wish to respond. How  
> you choose to interpret my questions is interesting in its own right.  
> Your responses, for instance, have already answered several of my  
> other questions.
> 
> > And, actually, the question also fails to say what you mean by  
> > "become a
> > Linux user".  Do you mean "used a shell account on a Linux  
> > machine"?  Do
> > you mean "installed a Linux distribution"?  Do you mean "used in any  
> > way
> > a device that runs Linux"?
> 
> You have identified three broad categories. I presume you consider all  
> these to be Linux users in a narrow sense. Are there sub-groups within  
> the Linux community? Do those who can rebuild the kernel regularly  
> gather to guffaw at the antics of less proficient users?
> 
> > Hundreds of millions of people use devices that run Linux, including  
> > all
> > TiVo users, all Palm Pre users, all Google G1 users, all Motorola  
> > RAZRv6
> > users, all users of the Google search engine, users of many and  
> > perhaps
> > most of the world's Web servers, and pretty much anyone who's used
> > software that's done DNS queries.  Among others.
> 
> It certainly never occurred to me that one may be a Linux user without  
> even knowing it. Makes sense though, just as most iPhone users don't  
> know they're using OS X, or even care for that matter. That will be  
> fascinating to discuss in my paper. I'm especially interested to know  
> how incidental or unwitting users are perceived by "true" (and I use  
> this word tentatively) Linux users.
> 
> Questions that come to mind: Do you like or dislike the idea that some  
> users are not even aware that they are using Linux? Is recognition of  
> the platform important? Why?
> 
> > I first became _aware_ of being at that moment running processes on a
> > Linux machine in 1992, when I logged into a shell account on a  
> > friend's
> > experimental machine.  I first constructed (i.e., software-loaded) a
> > Linux machine in 1993, using downloaded copies of H.J. Liu's boot and
> > root floppy images for constructing such systems.
> 
> 
> That is very cool! How did it feel to do that? What do you think of  
> how easy it is to install Linux now?
> 
> -edj
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
> 




From larry.cafiero at gmail.com  Wed Jul 29 08:55:43 2009
From: larry.cafiero at gmail.com (Larry Cafiero)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 08:55:43 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] What makes a true Linux user?
In-Reply-To: <d47aa47d0907290821r211620fcyb5b157cf24f0278e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
	<20090728180315.GT26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<1248880472.6860.78.camel@jim-laptop>
	<d47aa47d0907290821r211620fcyb5b157cf24f0278e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7a0d56080907290855kde3b00fh4ad972df23fed696@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 8:21 AM, Rigel Christian <rigelc at gmail.com> wrote:

> strange that the putative chemical makeup of a human does not appear
> to include any of the most abundant element in the universe -
> stupidity


That's odd -- I don't seem to see stupidity on the periodic table. Is that a
new element?
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From andrewevansc at gmail.com  Wed Jul 29 09:18:09 2009
From: andrewevansc at gmail.com (Andrew E)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 09:18:09 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] What makes a true Linux user?
In-Reply-To: <1248880803.6860.83.camel@jim-laptop>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281103g6c1dbe86i97a761e81e27990f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728182112.GV26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<1248880803.6860.83.camel@jim-laptop>
Message-ID: <bd7bad4c0907290918u7ef5e873la4c291ac27810848@mail.gmail.com>

The image rocks! I show people all the time. Everyone loves it.


On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 8:20 AM, jim <jim at well.com> wrote:

>
>   first negative criticism of the image i know of,
> and sensible. my thanks. anyone got replacement
> suggestions?
> jim
>
>
> On Tue, 2009-07-28 at 11:21 -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> > Quoting Andrew E (andrewevansc at gmail.com):
> >
> > > see SF LUG logo at http://www.sf-lug.org/
> >
> > Andrew makes a point, though probably not the point he had in mind:
> > The "LinuxKong image by Carol Benioff, concept by John Lowry" thing
> > on SF-LUG's Web page is, IMO, imaginative and nicely drawn but
> > unfortunate in theme:  It suggests that Linux is about (presumably
> > metaphorical) warfare against a legacy proprietary operating system.
> > It is not, and I personally rather resent getting lumped along with
> > the behaviour of people who never outgrew software-advocacy, which
> > is a disease of the zero-sum proprietary software world.
> >
> > I would suggest that it'd be nice if SF-LUG could, at some point, re-do
> > that logo with a less embarrassing conception of some sort.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > sf-lug mailing list
> > sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> > http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>
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From jackofnotrades at gmail.com  Wed Jul 29 09:30:21 2009
From: jackofnotrades at gmail.com (Jeff Bragg)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 09:30:21 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] How did you become a Linux
	user?
In-Reply-To: <1248882606.6860.104.camel@jim-laptop>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<20090728180750.GU26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281115j3750f77bue057af3840553846@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728182618.GW18928@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281138j306ac030j205ab4a606f69467@mail.gmail.com>
	<ACB436EB-9772-4F7D-B0BE-D72010D281B5@mac.com>
	<20090728221437.GY26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<20090729003240.GA15655@linuxmafia.com>
	<7B2E7036-4B1C-4417-82E4-030897D744C9@mac.com>
	<1248882606.6860.104.camel@jim-laptop>
Message-ID: <2f8a56f70907290930m6d559acayf502f18c6e289abe@mail.gmail.com>

Gradually and inexorably.

For me, it took awhile for familiarity with MS to yield to the power of
Linux.  Using it daily (both at home and at work) helped a lot to highlight
the real advantages of using Linux (which in my mind have little to do with
Microsoft).  Ultimately, Linux allows me to do just about anything I want to
with it; it seems like much more of a fight in any other OS I've tried.  As
a hacker (in the non-noxious sense), that appeals to me a lot.

On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 8:50 AM, jim <jim at well.com> wrote:

>
>
>   your questions are not disruptive in my
> mind. i like that people are interacting
> over your questions--it's interesting to
> see the variety. my take is that it will be
> better to have the questions one at a time
> (in separate emails), so that each discussion
> can be tracked separately.
> jim
>
>
> On Tue, 2009-07-28 at 18:41 -0700, Edward Janne wrote:
> > On Jul 28, 2009, at 5:32 PM, Rick Moen wrote:
> >
> > > 1. Edward, how long _is_ your questionnaire?
> >
> > I have six further questions. Some one suggested I post them one at a
> > time, but perhaps in the interests of brevity I should simply post
> > them all at once.
> >
> > But I should like to wait to see if others feel this research is too
> > disruptive.
> >
> > > 2.  As long as you're plowing onward:
> >
> > > Quoting Edward Janne (tigakub at mac.com):
> > >
> > >> Question 2: How did you become a Linux user?
> > >
> > > As stated, this question lacks context, i.e., we can't tell whether
> > > you
> > > are asking _by what method_ each respondent became a Linux user, or
> > > why.
> > > The literal-minded interpretation of your question is the former
> > > one, i.e.,
> > > that you're asking after the mechanics of initially installing and
> > > running Linux -- but that doesn't make a great deal of sense.  Why on
> > > earth would you want to know?  What possible use would you (or your
> > > professor) have for that information?  Don't you also need to know
> > > _when_?  If you do, why don't you say so?
> >
> > The aim is to obtain qualitative data which describes cultural
> > characteristics, rather than quantitative data which often become
> > meaningless statistics that tempt the researcher into drawing
> > conclusions where none can really be made. Certainly "when" one first
> > started using Linux could be considered an indicator of how familiar a
> > user is with Linux, but doesn't really account for frequency or depth
> > of use. Asking "how" someone first became a Linux user will reveal to
> > me many things. Was it out of necessity? Was it out of curiosity? It
> > goes a long way to revealing different types of Linux users, although
> > of course not an exhaustive taxonomy.
> >
> > And if the questions sound open ended and vague, that is how it should
> > be. I am not supposed to steer the study one way or another, but to
> > leave it up to the respondents to decide how they wish to respond. How
> > you choose to interpret my questions is interesting in its own right.
> > Your responses, for instance, have already answered several of my
> > other questions.
> >
> > > And, actually, the question also fails to say what you mean by
> > > "become a
> > > Linux user".  Do you mean "used a shell account on a Linux
> > > machine"?  Do
> > > you mean "installed a Linux distribution"?  Do you mean "used in any
> > > way
> > > a device that runs Linux"?
> >
> > You have identified three broad categories. I presume you consider all
> > these to be Linux users in a narrow sense. Are there sub-groups within
> > the Linux community? Do those who can rebuild the kernel regularly
> > gather to guffaw at the antics of less proficient users?
> >
> > > Hundreds of millions of people use devices that run Linux, including
> > > all
> > > TiVo users, all Palm Pre users, all Google G1 users, all Motorola
> > > RAZRv6
> > > users, all users of the Google search engine, users of many and
> > > perhaps
> > > most of the world's Web servers, and pretty much anyone who's used
> > > software that's done DNS queries.  Among others.
> >
> > It certainly never occurred to me that one may be a Linux user without
> > even knowing it. Makes sense though, just as most iPhone users don't
> > know they're using OS X, or even care for that matter. That will be
> > fascinating to discuss in my paper. I'm especially interested to know
> > how incidental or unwitting users are perceived by "true" (and I use
> > this word tentatively) Linux users.
> >
> > Questions that come to mind: Do you like or dislike the idea that some
> > users are not even aware that they are using Linux? Is recognition of
> > the platform important? Why?
> >
> > > I first became _aware_ of being at that moment running processes on a
> > > Linux machine in 1992, when I logged into a shell account on a
> > > friend's
> > > experimental machine.  I first constructed (i.e., software-loaded) a
> > > Linux machine in 1993, using downloaded copies of H.J. Liu's boot and
> > > root floppy images for constructing such systems.
> >
> >
> > That is very cool! How did it feel to do that? What do you think of
> > how easy it is to install Linux now?
> >
> > -edj
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > sf-lug mailing list
> > sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> > http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>
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From tigakub at mac.com  Wed Jul 29 09:38:35 2009
From: tigakub at mac.com (Edward Janne)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 09:38:35 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] Kinds of Linux user
In-Reply-To: <1248882606.6860.104.camel@jim-laptop>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281103g6c1dbe86i97a761e81e27990f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728180750.GU26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281115j3750f77bue057af3840553846@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728182618.GW18928@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281138j306ac030j205ab4a606f69467@mail.gmail.com>
	<ACB436EB-9772-4F7D-B0BE-D72010D281B5@mac.com>
	<20090728221437.GY26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<20090729003240.GA15655@linuxmafia.com>
	<7B2E7036-4B1C-4417-82E4-030897D744C9@mac.com>
	<1248882606.6860.104.camel@jim-laptop>
Message-ID: <1975FE68-8B95-4132-A879-E0831B187A7B@mac.com>

Thanks, Jim.

On Jul 29, 2009, at 8:50 AM, jim wrote:

>   your questions are not disruptive in my
> mind. i like that people are interacting
> over your questions--it's interesting to
> see the variety. my take is that it will be
> better to have the questions one at a time
> (in separate emails), so that each discussion
> can be tracked separately.
> jim

So in the absence of any negative response I shall continue.

-edj

Question 3: Are there different kinds or levels of Linux user? How  
would you describe them?




From andrewevansc at gmail.com  Wed Jul 29 10:12:57 2009
From: andrewevansc at gmail.com (Andrew E)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 10:12:57 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] Kinds of Linux user
In-Reply-To: <1975FE68-8B95-4132-A879-E0831B187A7B@mac.com>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<bd7bad4c0907281115j3750f77bue057af3840553846@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728182618.GW18928@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281138j306ac030j205ab4a606f69467@mail.gmail.com>
	<ACB436EB-9772-4F7D-B0BE-D72010D281B5@mac.com>
	<20090728221437.GY26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<20090729003240.GA15655@linuxmafia.com>
	<7B2E7036-4B1C-4417-82E4-030897D744C9@mac.com>
	<1248882606.6860.104.camel@jim-laptop>
	<1975FE68-8B95-4132-A879-E0831B187A7B@mac.com>
Message-ID: <bd7bad4c0907291012q7ec13185x1f770ef9f51f354c@mail.gmail.com>

Answer 3: I believe that a large part of one's expertise in Linux is defined
by their ability to *bust out fatty shell scripts*. Therein lies the power
of Linux: being able to tell the computer exactly what to do, step by step.

Also, the advanced user knows where the f&*#$ everything is located, from
deep in the /etc to the far reaches of the various libs.

*Beginner*: knows ls,cd,cp,mv commands, hates using vi

*Intermediate*: learns grep and loves it, hates using vi

*advanced*: pipes commands, creates shell scripts and cron jobs (hmm... does
apache skills fit under linux skills?????), starts to like vi

*expert*: i'm not there yet, but they usually have cats


On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 9:38 AM, Edward Janne <tigakub at mac.com> wrote:

> Thanks, Jim.
>
> On Jul 29, 2009, at 8:50 AM, jim wrote:
>
>   your questions are not disruptive in my
>> mind. i like that people are interacting
>> over your questions--it's interesting to
>> see the variety. my take is that it will be
>> better to have the questions one at a time
>> (in separate emails), so that each discussion
>> can be tracked separately.
>> jim
>>
>
> So in the absence of any negative response I shall continue.
>
> -edj
>
> Question 3: Are there different kinds or levels of Linux user? How would
> you describe them?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>
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From tigakub at mac.com  Wed Jul 29 10:42:20 2009
From: tigakub at mac.com (Edward Janne)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 10:42:20 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug]  [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] Linux applications
In-Reply-To: <1975FE68-8B95-4132-A879-E0831B187A7B@mac.com>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281103g6c1dbe86i97a761e81e27990f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728180750.GU26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281115j3750f77bue057af3840553846@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728182618.GW18928@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281138j306ac030j205ab4a606f69467@mail.gmail.com>
	<ACB436EB-9772-4F7D-B0BE-D72010D281B5@mac.com>
	<20090728221437.GY26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<20090729003240.GA15655@linuxmafia.com>
	<7B2E7036-4B1C-4417-82E4-030897D744C9@mac.com>
	<1248882606.6860.104.camel@jim-laptop>
	<1975FE68-8B95-4132-A879-E0831B187A7B@mac.com>
Message-ID: <22BE7F12-1A62-4175-8557-D13D77B34DEB@mac.com>

Question 4: What programs do you run on Linux? Does software that  
starts out exclusively Linux often get ported to other platforms? What  
is the motivation for this? Beyond being open source, what  
functionality is unique to Linux?





From rick at linuxmafia.com  Wed Jul 29 11:05:44 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 11:05:44 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] Kinds of Linux user
In-Reply-To: <bd7bad4c0907291012q7ec13185x1f770ef9f51f354c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bd7bad4c0907281115j3750f77bue057af3840553846@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728182618.GW18928@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281138j306ac030j205ab4a606f69467@mail.gmail.com>
	<ACB436EB-9772-4F7D-B0BE-D72010D281B5@mac.com>
	<20090728221437.GY26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<20090729003240.GA15655@linuxmafia.com>
	<7B2E7036-4B1C-4417-82E4-030897D744C9@mac.com>
	<1248882606.6860.104.camel@jim-laptop>
	<1975FE68-8B95-4132-A879-E0831B187A7B@mac.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907291012q7ec13185x1f770ef9f51f354c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090729180544.GF26829@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Andrew E (andrewevansc at gmail.com):

> *expert*: i'm not there yet, but they usually have cats

Those come preinstalled:

$ which cat
/bin/cat

-- 
Rick Moen              "The Internet sees your competence and wisdom as damage, 
rick at linuxmafia.com    and will route around it."  -- Anil Dash
                       http://twitter.com/anildash/status/2897466042



From lx_rudis at sbcglobal.net  Wed Jul 29 11:41:48 2009
From: lx_rudis at sbcglobal.net (Lx Rudis)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 11:41:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sf-lug] quick report on saturday's Tech Fair
Message-ID: <809574.17283.qm@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


jim s: 
> what kind of help do you need 

thanks for the reply!  

in my last email, i outlined several upcoming tasks that i could use help with:

1-inventorying the small 'fleet' of machines we keep in a basement closet there.

2-triage, upgrade and maintenance of the fleet.

3-establish one, possibly two dual-boot Ubuntu/Windows machines in their drop-in lab.  
3a-assist in monitoring that test.

4-...this one is still vague, but we [linux enthusiasts] need to start _being there_ a couple of predictable times a month.  courtesy of Christian's efforts, we've now got a fledgling Linux community down there.  it's time to grow it.

st. anthony's wants more linux presence down there, and currently they see SF-LUG as being that presence.

this could be expressed in a variety of ways; 
currently it's a day of linux outreach during their quarterly 'tech fairs'.  ryan, karl and kari want to see more of us.  they've offered access to facilities down there, have _reminded me_ that they _want_ to test out dual-boot systems in the drop-in lab, and they enthusiastically support the idea of some sort of linux group meeting down there regularly.  

it's up to us how we proceed on this. if we wish we can expand SF-LUG's influence, exploit existing tools such as our own wiki or forum and announce a third monthly meeting to be held downtown at st. anthony's.

this reminds me:  some of the conversations i had with attendees were very provocative.  one guy, upon being handed an Xubuntu disc _immediately_ asked about how one goes about getting 'linux certification', in other words it was a request for exactly the sort of 'red hat certification' group that jim was trying to kickstart here 2 years ago.

i don't want to natter on about this, as i know there are much more important threads going on right now with the Sf-LUG list.  on the other hand, i do want all members to know that we have a _big_ opportunity for both Linux and ourselves opening up downtown, and the door is being held open for us.  all we need to do is share some of our [limited, scattered] time.

jim s:
> and whom do we 
> contact to get involved? 

right now, just me.  
lx_rudis at sbcglobal.net 

i hope to hear from some of you soon!  this has been a really fun, rewarding volunteer effort for me.  i'd love to see more of you directly involved.

your humble mail admin,
lx




From lx_rudis at sbcglobal.net  Wed Jul 29 12:11:21 2009
From: lx_rudis at sbcglobal.net (Lx Rudis)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 12:11:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sf-lug] more st. anthony's outreach info
Message-ID: <394279.38504.qm@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


hello sfluggers, 

ryan from st. anthony's just got back to me.  he's saying that _wednesdays_ are a good day for system maintenance, most likely afternoons.

he's going to meet next tuesday to confirm wednesdays for linux visits, and also get confirmation that we can move forward with:

-dual boot test for drop-in lab
-regular 'linux meetings' ala Linux User Group

lx





From einfeldt at gmail.com  Wed Jul 29 13:23:40 2009
From: einfeldt at gmail.com (Christian Einfeldt)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 16:23:40 -0400
Subject: [sf-lug] more st. anthony's outreach info
In-Reply-To: <394279.38504.qm@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <394279.38504.qm@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4b5781040907291323n531f8dd9qa02e6ff27616f8c1@mail.gmail.com>

hi,

On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 3:11 PM, Lx Rudis <lx_rudis at sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>
> he's going to meet next tuesday to confirm wednesdays for linux visits, and
> also get confirmation that we can move forward with:
>
> -dual boot test for drop-in lab
> -regular 'linux meetings' ala Linux User Group
>

This is really awesome news!  Thanks so much!  Please keep us up to date!

c u
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From nbs at sonic.net  Wed Jul 29 15:07:49 2009
From: nbs at sonic.net (Bill Kendrick)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 15:07:49 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] Linux applications
In-Reply-To: <22BE7F12-1A62-4175-8557-D13D77B34DEB@mac.com>
References: <bd7bad4c0907281115j3750f77bue057af3840553846@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728182618.GW18928@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281138j306ac030j205ab4a606f69467@mail.gmail.com>
	<ACB436EB-9772-4F7D-B0BE-D72010D281B5@mac.com>
	<20090728221437.GY26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<20090729003240.GA15655@linuxmafia.com>
	<7B2E7036-4B1C-4417-82E4-030897D744C9@mac.com>
	<1248882606.6860.104.camel@jim-laptop>
	<1975FE68-8B95-4132-A879-E0831B187A7B@mac.com>
	<22BE7F12-1A62-4175-8557-D13D77B34DEB@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20090729220749.GB13821@sonic.net>

On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 10:42:20AM -0700, Edward Janne wrote:
> Question 4: What programs do you run on Linux?

On a regular basis:

Konsole to do a lot of generic day-to-day stuff,
including SSH'ing to my ISP's shell, so I can run Mutt to check my email,
or SSH'ing various places to maintain websites and web applications
(including my day job).

Amarok to listen to music (local and streaming)

Konqueror for most web browsing (random pages, daily stuff like bank account,
etc.)

Firefox for day-job, Facebook, SourceForge and Google (Maps/Calendar) browsing
*grumbles about not being compatible with Konqueror*

Konversation for chatting with local friends, as well as on a variety of
OSS project channels on freenode

Kate for some basic text editing and note taking (though sometimes also vi)

Gimp for graphics editing/manipulation

OpenOffice.org for document loading/creation

Dolphin for some file management (esp. photos off my camera's SD card),
though most file management is via shell

vi for lots of editing, including code maintenance (day job and my own OSS)

mplayer for watching local (vs. streamed via Flash) video files



> Does software that starts out exclusively Linux often get ported to
> other platforms? What is the motivation for this? Beyond being open
> source, what functionality is unique to Linux?

"GNU/Linux," what I consider the 'operating system' (kernel plus
lots of userspace tools and glue), is what makes Linux a lot easier to
deal with than other platforms.  Environments like Cygwin on Windows can
help, a _little_, but generally you cannot get past the fact that you're
running on a cumbersome, buggy, and poorly designed OS and GUI.

So sure, you can get a lot of OSS stuff for Windows and Mac, including
a lot of KDE (my desktop environment of choice), but it's just not as
smooth and enjoyable.[*]

I've found very little reason to care about running non-Linux, especially
since I stopped doing for BREW devices.  (That's just bad-on-bad, with
a twist of horrid USB drivers, coupled with terrible device-specific
implementation issues with BREW itself.  When I did J2ME, we at least had
saner dev. tools, and I could do all dev. and 'emulator'-based testing
under Linux.  It totally changed my attitude towards my job, at the time. :) )

[*] Despite recent audio-related annoyances.

-bill!
(ramble? who, me?)



From larry.cafiero at gmail.com  Wed Jul 29 15:42:04 2009
From: larry.cafiero at gmail.com (Larry Cafiero)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 15:42:04 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] Linux applications
In-Reply-To: <20090729220749.GB13821@sonic.net>
References: <bd7bad4c0907281115j3750f77bue057af3840553846@mail.gmail.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281138j306ac030j205ab4a606f69467@mail.gmail.com>
	<ACB436EB-9772-4F7D-B0BE-D72010D281B5@mac.com>
	<20090728221437.GY26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<20090729003240.GA15655@linuxmafia.com>
	<7B2E7036-4B1C-4417-82E4-030897D744C9@mac.com>
	<1248882606.6860.104.camel@jim-laptop>
	<1975FE68-8B95-4132-A879-E0831B187A7B@mac.com>
	<22BE7F12-1A62-4175-8557-D13D77B34DEB@mac.com>
	<20090729220749.GB13821@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <7a0d56080907291542o4ed33212s6f6aa676d4aee47f@mail.gmail.com>

<linux_humor> In fact, Bill's surname used to be Hendrick before he became a
KDE desktop user </linux_humor>

Larry Kafiero
Fedora 11 KDE user

On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 3:07 PM, Bill Kendrick <nbs at sonic.net> wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 10:42:20AM -0700, Edward Janne wrote:
> > Question 4: What programs do you run on Linux?
>
> On a regular basis:
>
> Konsole to do a lot of generic day-to-day stuff,
> including SSH'ing to my ISP's shell, so I can run Mutt to check my email,
> or SSH'ing various places to maintain websites and web applications
> (including my day job).
>
> Amarok to listen to music (local and streaming)
>
> Konqueror for most web browsing (random pages, daily stuff like bank
> account,
> etc.)
>
> Firefox for day-job, Facebook, SourceForge and Google (Maps/Calendar)
> browsing
> *grumbles about not being compatible with Konqueror*
>
> Konversation for chatting with local friends, as well as on a variety of
> OSS project channels on freenode
>
> Kate for some basic text editing and note taking (though sometimes also vi)
>
> Gimp for graphics editing/manipulation
>
> OpenOffice.org for document loading/creation
>
> Dolphin for some file management (esp. photos off my camera's SD card),
> though most file management is via shell
>
> vi for lots of editing, including code maintenance (day job and my own OSS)
>
> mplayer for watching local (vs. streamed via Flash) video files
>
>
>
> > Does software that starts out exclusively Linux often get ported to
> > other platforms? What is the motivation for this? Beyond being open
> > source, what functionality is unique to Linux?
>
> "GNU/Linux," what I consider the 'operating system' (kernel plus
> lots of userspace tools and glue), is what makes Linux a lot easier to
> deal with than other platforms.  Environments like Cygwin on Windows can
> help, a _little_, but generally you cannot get past the fact that you're
> running on a cumbersome, buggy, and poorly designed OS and GUI.
>
> So sure, you can get a lot of OSS stuff for Windows and Mac, including
> a lot of KDE (my desktop environment of choice), but it's just not as
> smooth and enjoyable.[*]
>
> I've found very little reason to care about running non-Linux, especially
> since I stopped doing for BREW devices.  (That's just bad-on-bad, with
> a twist of horrid USB drivers, coupled with terrible device-specific
> implementation issues with BREW itself.  When I did J2ME, we at least had
> saner dev. tools, and I could do all dev. and 'emulator'-based testing
> under Linux.  It totally changed my attitude towards my job, at the time.
> :) )
>
> [*] Despite recent audio-related annoyances.
>
> -bill!
> (ramble? who, me?)
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>
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From scott.edmonds at gmail.com  Wed Jul 29 15:55:57 2009
From: scott.edmonds at gmail.com (Scott Edmonds)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 15:55:57 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] What makes a true Linux user?
In-Reply-To: <525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
Message-ID: <844bd0fe0907291555x49d50afcv528898f3e432dca2@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Ed,

Who's the faculty member overseeing your project.  Sounds interesting?

Thanks.



On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 10:47 AM, Edward Janne <tigakub at mac.com> wrote:

> Hi everyone. My name is Edward Janne and I'm an animation student at the
> Academy of Art University here in San Francisco. As a part of my curriculum
> I'm taking a cultural anthropology class and I elected to study the San
> Francisco Linux Users Group for my final paper. The theme of the paper is
> how being a Linux User informs identity through ways of speaking, categories
> of people and things, and common likes or dislikes. To gather this data I
> will post a series of questions to the mailing list. There are no wrong
> answers. My aim is to understand group identity from your point of view.
> Thank you all for your time.
>
> -edj
>
> Question 1: What makes a true Linux user?
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>
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From jim at well.com  Wed Jul 29 17:20:53 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 17:20:53 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] quick report on saturday's Tech Fair
In-Reply-To: <809574.17283.qm@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <809574.17283.qm@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1248913253.6860.109.camel@jim-laptop>


   i'm interested and would like to negotiate one or 
two times a week that i could be down there to help 
out and also pursue a linux study group. 
   currently i know a fellow with whom i've just 
committed time to study LPI and Red Hat certification 
paths. it might work that he and i meet at St. A's 
and be available to provide support to those with 
linux problems and include any of St. A's clients 
interested in joining our effort. 
   any sf-luggers are welcome, as are all others. 
jim 



On Wed, 2009-07-29 at 11:41 -0700, Lx Rudis wrote:
> jim s: 
> > what kind of help do you need 
> 
> thanks for the reply!  
> 
> in my last email, i outlined several upcoming tasks that i could use help with:
> 
> 1-inventorying the small 'fleet' of machines we keep in a basement closet there.
> 
> 2-triage, upgrade and maintenance of the fleet.
> 
> 3-establish one, possibly two dual-boot Ubuntu/Windows machines in their drop-in lab.  
> 3a-assist in monitoring that test.
> 
> 4-...this one is still vague, but we [linux enthusiasts] need to start _being there_ a couple of predictable times a month.  courtesy of Christian's efforts, we've now got a fledgling Linux community down there.  it's time to grow it.
> 
> st. anthony's wants more linux presence down there, and currently they see SF-LUG as being that presence.
> 
> this could be expressed in a variety of ways; 
> currently it's a day of linux outreach during their quarterly 'tech fairs'.  ryan, karl and kari want to see more of us.  they've offered access to facilities down there, have _reminded me_ that they _want_ to test out dual-boot systems in the drop-in lab, and they enthusiastically support the idea of some sort of linux group meeting down there regularly.  
> 
> it's up to us how we proceed on this. if we wish we can expand SF-LUG's influence, exploit existing tools such as our own wiki or forum and announce a third monthly meeting to be held downtown at st. anthony's.
> 
> this reminds me:  some of the conversations i had with attendees were very provocative.  one guy, upon being handed an Xubuntu disc _immediately_ asked about how one goes about getting 'linux certification', in other words it was a request for exactly the sort of 'red hat certification' group that jim was trying to kickstart here 2 years ago.
> 
> i don't want to natter on about this, as i know there are much more important threads going on right now with the Sf-LUG list.  on the other hand, i do want all members to know that we have a _big_ opportunity for both Linux and ourselves opening up downtown, and the door is being held open for us.  all we need to do is share some of our [limited, scattered] time.
> 
> jim s:
> > and whom do we 
> > contact to get involved? 
> 
> right now, just me.  
> lx_rudis at sbcglobal.net 
> 
> i hope to hear from some of you soon!  this has been a really fun, rewarding volunteer effort for me.  i'd love to see more of you directly involved.
> 
> your humble mail admin,
> lx
> 




From jim at well.com  Wed Jul 29 18:12:57 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 18:12:57 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] Kinds of Linux user
In-Reply-To: <1975FE68-8B95-4132-A879-E0831B187A7B@mac.com>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281103g6c1dbe86i97a761e81e27990f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728180750.GU26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281115j3750f77bue057af3840553846@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728182618.GW18928@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281138j306ac030j205ab4a606f69467@mail.gmail.com>
	<ACB436EB-9772-4F7D-B0BE-D72010D281B5@mac.com>
	<20090728221437.GY26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<20090729003240.GA15655@linuxmafia.com>
	<7B2E7036-4B1C-4417-82E4-030897D744C9@mac.com>
	<1248882606.6860.104.camel@jim-laptop>
	<1975FE68-8B95-4132-A879-E0831B187A7B@mac.com>
Message-ID: <1248916377.6860.137.camel@jim-laptop>


[top posting: kinds of linux user] 
   as with any group, individuals are properly 
aligned as a gradient, probably as data points 
on a multi-dimensional matrix. classifications 
are to some degree arbitrary. for any dimension, 
take the ten percent at the end points and find 
the mid-point, then try to assign a meaning. 
trick is to determine the dimensions and how to 
quantify. 
   command line skills, understanding kernel 
internals, modules, networking, file systems, 
use of GUI shells ("desktops"), use of application 
programs, the list could go on. it's important 
to acknowledge the existence of linux underlying 
devices that users generally don't know or care 
depend on linux as their internals. 
   your intent is probably with respect to using 
linux on computers for individual work or for data 
center work, pretty different camps. 
   measurability might include how often a person 
asks for help as well as how often a person can 
help others. consider asking users how comfortable 
they feel: not at all, only a little, fairly much, 
completely. consider getting figures on who uses 
linux at all: a little, somewhat, a lot, all the 
time. 
   for me, the question as to skill level is not 
worthwhile: one person can be masterful in some 
areas and not others, and feel more masterful or 
less so than others may judge. 
   an important question is growth: is the 
percentage of people who use linux at least a 
little bit growing, and if so at what rate? 
   another important question is application use: 
how many are using linux for what kinds of 
applications, and what's the growth.... 




On Wed, 2009-07-29 at 09:38 -0700, Edward Janne wrote:
> Thanks, Jim.
> 
> On Jul 29, 2009, at 8:50 AM, jim wrote:
> 
> >   your questions are not disruptive in my
> > mind. i like that people are interacting
> > over your questions--it's interesting to
> > see the variety. my take is that it will be
> > better to have the questions one at a time
> > (in separate emails), so that each discussion
> > can be tracked separately.
> > jim
> 
> So in the absence of any negative response I shall continue.
> 
> -edj
> 
> Question 3: Are there different kinds or levels of Linux user? How  
> would you describe them?
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
> 




From jim at well.com  Wed Jul 29 18:17:47 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 18:17:47 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] Linux applications
In-Reply-To: <22BE7F12-1A62-4175-8557-D13D77B34DEB@mac.com>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281103g6c1dbe86i97a761e81e27990f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728180750.GU26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281115j3750f77bue057af3840553846@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728182618.GW18928@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281138j306ac030j205ab4a606f69467@mail.gmail.com>
	<ACB436EB-9772-4F7D-B0BE-D72010D281B5@mac.com>
	<20090728221437.GY26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<20090729003240.GA15655@linuxmafia.com>
	<7B2E7036-4B1C-4417-82E4-030897D744C9@mac.com>
	<1248882606.6860.104.camel@jim-laptop>
	<1975FE68-8B95-4132-A879-E0831B187A7B@mac.com>
	<22BE7F12-1A62-4175-8557-D13D77B34DEB@mac.com>
Message-ID: <1248916667.6860.143.camel@jim-laptop>



   at home, personally, email client, browser, 
GUI text editor, vi, bash, C compiler, python 
interpreter, some stuff in /bin/ /sbin/ /usr/bin/ 
/usr/sbin/ not much else. 

   on server machines, nagios, apache, sshd, 
mysql, /bin/*, /sbin/*, a few things in 
/usr/{bin,sbin} 



On Wed, 2009-07-29 at 10:42 -0700, Edward Janne wrote:
> Question 4: What programs do you run on Linux? Does software that  
> starts out exclusively Linux often get ported to other platforms? What  
> is the motivation for this? Beyond being open source, what  
> functionality is unique to Linux?
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
> 




From jim at well.com  Wed Jul 29 18:37:29 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 18:37:29 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] Linux applications
In-Reply-To: <22BE7F12-1A62-4175-8557-D13D77B34DEB@mac.com>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281103g6c1dbe86i97a761e81e27990f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728180750.GU26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281115j3750f77bue057af3840553846@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728182618.GW18928@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281138j306ac030j205ab4a606f69467@mail.gmail.com>
	<ACB436EB-9772-4F7D-B0BE-D72010D281B5@mac.com>
	<20090728221437.GY26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<20090729003240.GA15655@linuxmafia.com>
	<7B2E7036-4B1C-4417-82E4-030897D744C9@mac.com>
	<1248882606.6860.104.camel@jim-laptop>
	<1975FE68-8B95-4132-A879-E0831B187A7B@mac.com>
	<22BE7F12-1A62-4175-8557-D13D77B34DEB@mac.com>
Message-ID: <1248917850.6860.153.camel@jim-laptop>


oh (correction...): firefox, gimp, dia, gedit, 

command-line: ssh, ftp, 

   no clue what gets ported to other platforms, and 
i get pissed off if the gnu toolkit gets tweaked 
such that commands have different options and 
different behaviors. 
   programs designed for unix type systems are 
generally portable to other unix type systems, 
perhaps less so to windows and other operating 
systems (and vice versa, note "perhaps"). 

   the design of the linux kernel (that which is 
properly "linux") permits a global filesystem 
namespace (FHS) and isolated process access to 
resources (ergo good security), and those aspects 
have a bearing on portability. (blah-de-blah, 
mutter, mutter....) 



On Wed, 2009-07-29 at 10:42 -0700, Edward Janne wrote:
> Question 4: What programs do you run on Linux? Does software that  
> starts out exclusively Linux often get ported to other platforms? What  
> is the motivation for this? Beyond being open source, what  
> functionality is unique to Linux?
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
> 




From einfeldt at gmail.com  Wed Jul 29 21:55:54 2009
From: einfeldt at gmail.com (Christian Einfeldt)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 21:55:54 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] quick report on saturday's Tech Fair
In-Reply-To: <234890.47223.qm@web82701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <234890.47223.qm@web82701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4b5781040907292155k31ba4cbdy70e7706d74e6fcc3@mail.gmail.com>

hi,

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 11:25 AM, Lx Rudis <lx_rudis at sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> future plans:
> i've been invited to start making a regular presence at St. Anthony's, and
> have volunteered to do two 4 hour on-sites per month.  right now i'm working
> out what those days will be, and i'll report back as soon as the date/times
> are confirmed - as with the tech fair, i'd love to see SF-LUGgers involved
> in this project.


Thx, and please let this list know about developments!  This is interesting!



> initially, i'll just be inventorying and maintaining our small fleet of
> Ubuntu machines - 9 complete systems.  eventually i hope to add a couple of
> 'older' machines with smaller distros.


We maintain a list here of the equipment to which Lx refers:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=rw1t1KwdJvR2sr6NWNQ4Bfw&output=html

This spreadsheet allows us to track our equipment across the several
projects which SF-LUG members are supporting.  This tracking gives us a
sense of strengths and weaknesses of our projects' equipment, and gives us a
feel for the size of our projects.

Currently, for example, we need giga switches and optical mice.  If anyone
knows where we can get some of these pieces of equipment, that would be
great.  We also need a few decent monitors and a few working P4 machines
with at least 512 MB of RAM.



> ryan has reported to me that an increasing number of their clients are
> using Ubuntu and other distros.


This is music to my ears.  And this is also the key benefit of having a
presence at St. Anthony -- the clients there actually use low-spec machines
and are happy with the same!!!  How wonderful to support people who will not
reject otherwise decent machines!


> it's his opinion that these people will make it a point to come in if they
> know another Linux person is on-site.


Bingo.


> if this happens, we'll either establish a "St. Anthony's LUG" or announce a
> 'third monthly meeting' for SF-LUg.


Consistency is so important in dealing with the kinds of clients who come to
St. Anthony.

Lx, thanks for doing such a wonderful job leading the St. Anthony project!
It is such a great service to St. Anthony, to their clients, and to this
SF-LUG!

c u
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From tigakub at mac.com  Thu Jul 30 09:38:46 2009
From: tigakub at mac.com (Edward Janne)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 09:38:46 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug]   [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] Linux growth
In-Reply-To: <1248917850.6860.153.camel@jim-laptop>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281103g6c1dbe86i97a761e81e27990f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728180750.GU26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281115j3750f77bue057af3840553846@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728182618.GW18928@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281138j306ac030j205ab4a606f69467@mail.gmail.com>
	<ACB436EB-9772-4F7D-B0BE-D72010D281B5@mac.com>
	<20090728221437.GY26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<20090729003240.GA15655@linuxmafia.com>
	<7B2E7036-4B1C-4417-82E4-030897D744C9@mac.com>
	<1248882606.6860.104.camel@jim-laptop>
	<1975FE68-8B95-4132-A879-E0831B187A7B@mac.com>
	<22BE7F12-1A62-4175-8557-D13D77B34DEB@mac.com>
	<1248917850.6860.153.camel@jim-laptop>
Message-ID: <6AAECA24-3B03-4FA8-9515-AEB21079B698@mac.com>

Question 5: Is the Linux user base growing fast enough? What do the  
members of the group do to encourage adoption of the platform?





From lx_rudis at sbcglobal.net  Thu Jul 30 10:22:09 2009
From: lx_rudis at sbcglobal.net (Lx Rudis)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 10:22:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] Linux growth
Message-ID: <748312.80302.qm@web82705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



> Question 5: Is the Linux user base
> growing fast enough?

i feel it's growing as fast as FOSS philosophy can allow.  

so 'yes'.  would be great to see linux suddenly explode into the common consciousness, but i'd have to wonder at what cost that would occur.

although it's sometimes frustrating, i do accept that part of this movement is about how we think and acquire knowledge, not so much about details like GUI or filesystems.  re-learning how to think takes a lot of time.

> What do the members of the group do to
> encourage adoption of the platform?

share.  aggressively!  ;)




From rick at linuxmafia.com  Thu Jul 30 10:49:57 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 10:49:57 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] Linux growth
In-Reply-To: <6AAECA24-3B03-4FA8-9515-AEB21079B698@mac.com>
References: <bd7bad4c0907281138j306ac030j205ab4a606f69467@mail.gmail.com>
	<ACB436EB-9772-4F7D-B0BE-D72010D281B5@mac.com>
	<20090728221437.GY26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<20090729003240.GA15655@linuxmafia.com>
	<7B2E7036-4B1C-4417-82E4-030897D744C9@mac.com>
	<1248882606.6860.104.camel@jim-laptop>
	<1975FE68-8B95-4132-A879-E0831B187A7B@mac.com>
	<22BE7F12-1A62-4175-8557-D13D77B34DEB@mac.com>
	<1248917850.6860.153.camel@jim-laptop>
	<6AAECA24-3B03-4FA8-9515-AEB21079B698@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20090730174957.GM26829@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Edward Janne (tigakub at mac.com):

> Question 5: Is the Linux user base growing fast enough? 

I can tell that you're not a "process" thinker, because my immediate
reaction was "Fast enough to accomplish _what_ specifically?"

> What do the members of the group do to encourage adoption of the
> platform?

Your question suggests the zero-sum proprietary-OS mindset at work.
It's kind of depressing to still encounter that in 2009.

Quoting myself from
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/12/26/1040511127721.html (interview,
2002):


  Q:  Do you think you could achieve more if your advocacy was a little
  less strident?

  A:  I'm reminded of a story about the 19th century US public speaker and
  political figure Robert G. Ingersoll, who was wildly popular with the
  public but inspired influential "establishment" detractors by being
  publicly non-religious: Some reporters came to visit, and asked him
  about the rumours that his son had gotten drunk during a wild party and
  fell unconscious under the table. Ingersoll paused for effect, then
  started: "Well, first of all, he didn't fall under the table. And he
  wasn't actually unconscious. For that matter, he didn't fall. And there
  wasn't any party, and he didn't have anything to drink.... And, by the
  way, I don't have a son."

  So it's not what I'd call strident, and I don't do advocacy. At least,
  not in the usual sense of the term.

  The usual sort of OS advocacy is what the "Team OS/2" crowd used to do:
  They knew that their favourite software would live or die by the level
  of corporate acceptance and release/maintenance of proprietary
  shrink-wrapped OS/2 applications. They lobbied, they lost, IBM lost
  interest, and now their favourite OS is effectively dead.

  But Linux is fundamentally different because it and all key applications
  are open source: the programmer community that maintains it is
  self-supporting, and would keep it advancing and and healthy regardless
  of whether the business world and general public uses it with wild
  abandon, only a little, or not at all. Because of its open-source
  licence terms, its raw source code is permanently available. Linux
  cannot be "withdrawn from the market" at the whim of some company
  - as is slowly happening to OS/2. (Ed: IBM finally pulled the plug on
  OS/2 on December 10.) 

  Therefore, Linux users are not in a zero-sum competition for
  popularity with proponents of other operating systems (unlike, say,
  OS/2, MS-Windows, and Mac OS users). I can honestly wish Apple Computer
  well with their eye-pleasing and well-made (if a bit slow and
  inflexible) Mac OS X operating system: wishing them well doesn't mean
  wishing Linux ill.

  Note that all of the identifiable "Linux companies" could blow away in
  the breeze like just so much Enron stock, and the advance of Linux would
  not be materially impaired, because what matters is source code and the
  licensing thereof, which has rather little to do with any of those
  firms' fortunes.

  Further, and getting back to your original point, I honestly don't care
  if you or anyone else gets "converted" to Linux. I don't have to. I'm no
  better off if you do; I'm no worse off if you don't.

  What I do care about is giving making useful information and help
  available to people using Linux or interested in it. Why? Partly to
  redeem the trust shown by others when they helped me. Partly because
  it's interesting. Partly because researching and then teaching things I
  usually start knowing little about is the best way I know to learn. And
  partly out of pure, unadulterated self-interest: people knowing your
  name is at least a foot in the door, in the IT business.

  As to stridency, there _is_ a well-known problem of all on-line
  discussion media. Some people become emotionally invested in positions
  they've taken in technical arguments, and gratuituously turn technical
  disagreements into verbal brawls. And unfortunately they tend to be
  drawn to people like me who attempt to state their views clearly and
  forcefully. It's as if you were to say "I like herring" and thereby
  summon every dedicated herring-hater within a hundred-mile radius. The
  problem comes with the territory.

  But that causes occasional unpleasantness and back-biting _among_ some
  on-line Linux users, not an aspect of "advocacy", which isn't something
  we have much use for, generally - especially where the term refers to
  convincing the unwilling.


  Q: What do you hope to achieve by this advocacy?

  A: I hope to have fun, to learn, to help those willing to "help themselves"
  by learning about their systems, to become qualified to work
  professionally with better and more-interesting technology, to spend
  more of my time around people I enjoy, and to improve my quality of life
  by improving the grade of tools I work with.

  Please note that "converting users to Linux" is nowhere on that list. 





From nbs at sonic.net  Thu Jul 30 11:51:18 2009
From: nbs at sonic.net (Bill Kendrick)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 11:51:18 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] Linux growth
In-Reply-To: <20090730174957.GM26829@linuxmafia.com>
References: <ACB436EB-9772-4F7D-B0BE-D72010D281B5@mac.com>
	<20090728221437.GY26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<20090729003240.GA15655@linuxmafia.com>
	<7B2E7036-4B1C-4417-82E4-030897D744C9@mac.com>
	<1248882606.6860.104.camel@jim-laptop>
	<1975FE68-8B95-4132-A879-E0831B187A7B@mac.com>
	<22BE7F12-1A62-4175-8557-D13D77B34DEB@mac.com>
	<1248917850.6860.153.camel@jim-laptop>
	<6AAECA24-3B03-4FA8-9515-AEB21079B698@mac.com>
	<20090730174957.GM26829@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <20090730185118.GA21436@sonic.net>

On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 10:49:57AM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
>   Note that all of the identifiable "Linux companies" could blow away in
>   the breeze like just so much Enron stock, and the advance of Linux would
>   not be materially impaired, because what matters is source code and the
>   licensing thereof, which has rather little to do with any of those
>   firms' fortunes.

Akin to the "pizza" analogy I came up with years ago, and am oh-so proud of.
Someone asked "what if RedHat goes under?"  To me, it was like asking
"what [would happen to pizza] if RoundTable goes under?"

You can (a) go to any of the other fine pizza establishments, and/or
(b) bake it yourself, at home.  Just get a recipe.


-- 
-bill!
Sent from my computer



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Thu Jul 30 11:54:16 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 11:54:16 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] Linux growth
In-Reply-To: <20090730185118.GA21436@sonic.net>
References: <20090728221437.GY26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<20090729003240.GA15655@linuxmafia.com>
	<7B2E7036-4B1C-4417-82E4-030897D744C9@mac.com>
	<1248882606.6860.104.camel@jim-laptop>
	<1975FE68-8B95-4132-A879-E0831B187A7B@mac.com>
	<22BE7F12-1A62-4175-8557-D13D77B34DEB@mac.com>
	<1248917850.6860.153.camel@jim-laptop>
	<6AAECA24-3B03-4FA8-9515-AEB21079B698@mac.com>
	<20090730174957.GM26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<20090730185118.GA21436@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <20090730185416.GT26829@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Bill Kendrick (nbs at sonic.net):

> Akin to the "pizza" analogy I came up with years ago, and am oh-so proud of.
> Someone asked "what if RedHat goes under?"  To me, it was like asking
> "what [would happen to pizza] if RoundTable goes under?"
> 
> You can (a) go to any of the other fine pizza establishments, and/or
> (b) bake it yourself, at home.  Just get a recipe.

That's a really, really good analogy.  Thanks!  I might borrow that.



From larry.cafiero at gmail.com  Thu Jul 30 12:13:51 2009
From: larry.cafiero at gmail.com (Larry Cafiero)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 12:13:51 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] Linux growth
In-Reply-To: <20090730185118.GA21436@sonic.net>
References: <ACB436EB-9772-4F7D-B0BE-D72010D281B5@mac.com>
	<20090729003240.GA15655@linuxmafia.com>
	<7B2E7036-4B1C-4417-82E4-030897D744C9@mac.com>
	<1248882606.6860.104.camel@jim-laptop>
	<1975FE68-8B95-4132-A879-E0831B187A7B@mac.com>
	<22BE7F12-1A62-4175-8557-D13D77B34DEB@mac.com>
	<1248917850.6860.153.camel@jim-laptop>
	<6AAECA24-3B03-4FA8-9515-AEB21079B698@mac.com>
	<20090730174957.GM26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<20090730185118.GA21436@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <7a0d56080907301213k561f5d91jac49dd2bc153b560@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 11:51 AM, Bill Kendrick <nbs at sonic.net> wrote:

>
> Akin to the "pizza" analogy I came up with years ago, and am oh-so proud
> of.
> Someone asked "what if RedHat goes under?"  To me, it was like asking
> "what [would happen to pizza] if RoundTable goes under?"
>
> You can (a) go to any of the other fine pizza establishments, and/or
> (b) bake it yourself, at home.  Just get a recipe.



Mmmmmm. Pizza.
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From jim at well.com  Thu Jul 30 12:26:05 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 12:26:05 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] Linux growth
In-Reply-To: <6AAECA24-3B03-4FA8-9515-AEB21079B698@mac.com>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281103g6c1dbe86i97a761e81e27990f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728180750.GU26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281115j3750f77bue057af3840553846@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728182618.GW18928@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281138j306ac030j205ab4a606f69467@mail.gmail.com>
	<ACB436EB-9772-4F7D-B0BE-D72010D281B5@mac.com>
	<20090728221437.GY26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<20090729003240.GA15655@linuxmafia.com>
	<7B2E7036-4B1C-4417-82E4-030897D744C9@mac.com>
	<1248882606.6860.104.camel@jim-laptop>
	<1975FE68-8B95-4132-A879-E0831B187A7B@mac.com>
	<22BE7F12-1A62-4175-8557-D13D77B34DEB@mac.com>
	<1248917850.6860.153.camel@jim-laptop>
	<6AAECA24-3B03-4FA8-9515-AEB21079B698@mac.com>
Message-ID: <1248981965.6860.172.camel@jim-laptop>


On Thu, 2009-07-30 at 09:38 -0700, Edward Janne wrote:
> Question 5: Is the Linux user base growing fast enough? 
   i have driven a stake in the ground: i want to promote 
linux (and to a lesser extent freeBSD and other Free and 
Open Source Software), partly to encourage what i think 
is a moral and rich approach to doing things (collaboration), 
as well as vindictively (i don't like some of what MSFT has 
done in the last 15 years--i used to be a MSFT booster, 
mainly because their compilers were well-designed). 
   so no, the linux user base is not growing fast enough 
for my taste. 


> What do the  
> members of the group do to encourage adoption of the platform? 
   i try to evangelize open source software and encourage 
anyone who'll listen to me to convert from silo-ware to 
foss-ware. this means being attentive to people i meet wrt 
what they're doing with computers, asking a few questions, 
then possibly making some tentative suggestions with offers 
to help. i occasionally join some community effort to help 
support such as St. Anthony's or the KIPP school or OLPC-SF. 


> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
> 




From chinku.linux at gmail.com  Thu Jul 30 12:59:54 2009
From: chinku.linux at gmail.com (chaitanya mehandru)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 01:29:54 +0530
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] How did you become a Linux
	user?
In-Reply-To: <DCA428DC-10ED-4B1E-8E27-CF6640E837D6@mac.com>
References: <1248800209.6860.64.camel@jim-laptop>
	<525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281103g6c1dbe86i97a761e81e27990f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728180750.GU26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281115j3750f77bue057af3840553846@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728182618.GW18928@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281138j306ac030j205ab4a606f69467@mail.gmail.com>
	<ACB436EB-9772-4F7D-B0BE-D72010D281B5@mac.com>
	<24b40b2b0907281509we0ed4c8w3b45ef3c21f010c@mail.gmail.com>
	<DCA428DC-10ED-4B1E-8E27-CF6640E837D6@mac.com>
Message-ID: <24b40b2b0907301259y5b43feadtec9715bacf9633d0@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Edward,
When I tried linux, i felt like i can do this and i can do that!!! and hence
i was feeling that if i stick to linux it wud  be a wise choice. If i name
something that i have done on windows, i can do it on linux as well in
addition to the individual benefits of linux. There is no restriction and to
a much greater extent you can urself define what you want the OS to do.
Also, security is an important concern and there is nothing to worry about
viruses on linux.

Regarding my paper, I have analyzed the software power and performance  on
low power architecture based Mobile Internet Devices. It shows mostly a
technical analysis of the multimedia and videoconferencing on x86
architecture. The biggest advantage i had was the availablility of dedicated
tools to measure performance but on windows we just have almost nothing. The
measurements of memory, processor activity,etc were done with *various tools
tht are available only on linux and an equivalent tool on windows is not
available*. I remember tht once i proposed some measurements on windows xp,
but we figured out tht we dont have enough tools and ended up in quitting
anykind of measurements on windows. So, linux solved a major hurdle of tools
availabilty to collect data!!!

Another reason is tht from performance point of view, linux proves to better
in terms of the power consumed in idle mode which is a common scenario on
all mobile devices. Running windows and keeping the device idle consumes a
little more watts i.e lesser battery life.

I hope this information isw useful for you and the above mentioned
technicalities wud be good to include in your paper.
Let me know if u want to know something more specific.

In adition, i just feel tht linux will soon be on most of the computers in
every house today becoz of the ease, flexibility and the lelvel of control
it offers to an end-user.

*-Chaitanya*


On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 10:54 PM, Edward Janne <tigakub at mac.com> wrote:

> Hi Chaitanya, sorry for taking so long to follow up, the response to my
> questions has been quite overwhelming.
>
> I'd be interested to read your paper. Could you elaborate on why you love
> Linux so much?
>
> Thanks!
>
> -edj
>
>
> On Jul 28, 2009, at 3:09 PM, chaitanya mehandru wrote:
>
>  I became a linux user in a way similar to when someone joins a
>> university-- I mean we are among intellectual people and then we start
>> trying new things and get interested more once we get to know about them. In
>> addition, I recently wrote a paper on Power/Performance benefits of using
>> Linux and open-source software on Mobile Internet Devices and exploring
>> newer usage models. I have been using linux for 2years now and want to keep
>> adding years to it.....Linux is amazing to me!!!
>>
>
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From einfeldt at gmail.com  Thu Jul 30 13:13:55 2009
From: einfeldt at gmail.com (Christian Einfeldt)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 13:13:55 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Paid work fixing Mac notebooks
Message-ID: <4b5781040907301313nd17005j3644411a392bbc06@mail.gmail.com>

One of the schools that our LUG is supporting has some Mac machines with
issues.  I don't know what the issues are, sorry.  I only use Linux machines
at the school.  But our principal has said that some of the Macs are not
working correctly, and the school would be willing to pay to have the Mac
machines fixed.  If you don't mind working on non-Free machines, please ping
me.  I don't know how much the school is paying, because the principal
doesn't understand computers and so doesn't know how much work needs to be
done.  You would need to interview the principal and then submit a bid.

Thanks either way.
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From rick at linuxmafia.com  Thu Jul 30 14:58:04 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 14:58:04 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] How did you become a
	Linux	user?
In-Reply-To: <24b40b2b0907301259y5b43feadtec9715bacf9633d0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <525BB0BC-DD39-4788-AB07-8B9F6B4A86E4@mac.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281103g6c1dbe86i97a761e81e27990f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728180750.GU26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281115j3750f77bue057af3840553846@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090728182618.GW18928@linuxmafia.com>
	<bd7bad4c0907281138j306ac030j205ab4a606f69467@mail.gmail.com>
	<ACB436EB-9772-4F7D-B0BE-D72010D281B5@mac.com>
	<24b40b2b0907281509we0ed4c8w3b45ef3c21f010c@mail.gmail.com>
	<DCA428DC-10ED-4B1E-8E27-CF6640E837D6@mac.com>
	<24b40b2b0907301259y5b43feadtec9715bacf9633d0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090730215804.GU26829@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting chaitanya mehandru (chinku.linux at gmail.com):

> Also, security is an important concern and there is nothing to worry about
> viruses on linux.

<deadpan> 
Even though there have been 66 viruses and 12 worms released to attack
Linux specifically?  (Reference:
http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/index.php?page=virus#virus5 )
</deadpan>

-- 
Cheers,             The shortest distance between two puns is a straightline.
Rick Moen
rick at linuxmafia.com



From chinku.linux at gmail.com  Thu Jul 30 15:28:32 2009
From: chinku.linux at gmail.com (chaitanya mehandru)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 03:58:32 +0530
Subject: [sf-lug] (forw) Re: [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] How did you
	become a Linux user?
In-Reply-To: <20090730222659.GH18928@linuxmafia.com>
References: <20090730222659.GH18928@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <24b40b2b0907301528x59cec232l5173e204cfcb8ce8@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 3:56 AM, Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com> wrote:

> Hi, looks like you accidentally sent me private mail.  If you're
> looking for a response, you should post to the mailing list.
> (Meanwhile, you should actually consult the URL I provided and
> read the text.)
>
> ----- Forwarded message from chaitanya mehandru <chinku.linux at gmail.com>
> -----
>
> Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 03:49:58 +0530
> From: chaitanya mehandru <chinku.linux at gmail.com>
> To: Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com>
> X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE,
>        SPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.2.5
> Subject: Re: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] How did you become a Linux
>        user?
>
> Hi Rick,
> So that means linux is at a risk from these viruses/worms? These viruses
> will work in some exceptional cases only!!!
> Can we say that Linux is still secure as compared to windows?
>
> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 3:28 AM, Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com> wrote:
>
> > Quoting chaitanya mehandru (chinku.linux at gmail.com):
> >
> > > Also, security is an important concern and there is nothing to worry
> > about
> > > viruses on linux.
> >
> > <deadpan>
> > Even though there have been 66 viruses and 12 worms released to attack
> > Linux specifically?  (Reference:
> > http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/index.php?page=virus#virus5<http://linuxmafia.com/%7Erick/faq/index.php?page=virus#virus5>
> <http://linuxmafia.com/%7Erick/faq/index.php?page=virus#virus5>)
> > </deadpan>
> >
> > --
> > Cheers,             The shortest distance between two puns is a
> > straightline.
> > Rick Moen
> > rick at linuxmafia.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > sf-lug mailing list
> > sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> > http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
> >
>
> ----- End forwarded message -----
>
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From chinku.linux at gmail.com  Thu Jul 30 15:32:13 2009
From: chinku.linux at gmail.com (chaitanya mehandru)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 04:02:13 +0530
Subject: [sf-lug] (forw) Re: [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] How did you
	become a Linux user?
In-Reply-To: <20090730222659.GH18928@linuxmafia.com>
References: <20090730222659.GH18928@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <24b40b2b0907301532t7529f0d7i712758a14ba01f5a@mail.gmail.com>

What i know is tht the viruses for linux affectonly the local user.....and
not keep spreading all over. Well, the text is worth reading. and it also
mentions that the virus will change permissions,etc,etc. and affect the
files of a user who executed the binary. More i will read.....and also
willing to talk about it more with you and other folks.


> ----- Forwarded message from chaitanya mehandru <chinku.linux at gmail.com>
> -----
>
> Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 03:49:58 +0530
> From: chaitanya mehandru <chinku.linux at gmail.com>
> To: Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com>
> X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE,
>        SPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.2.5
> Subject: Re: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] How did you become a Linux
>        user?
>
> Hi Rick,
> So that means linux is at a risk from these viruses/worms? These viruses
> will work in some exceptional cases only!!!
> Can we say that Linux is still secure as compared to windows?
>
> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 3:28 AM, Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com> wrote:
>
> > Quoting chaitanya mehandru (chinku.linux at gmail.com):
> >
> > > Also, security is an important concern and there is nothing to worry
> > about
> > > viruses on linux.
> >
> > <deadpan>
> > Even though there have been 66 viruses and 12 worms released to attack
> > Linux specifically?  (Reference:
> > http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/index.php?page=virus#virus5<http://linuxmafia.com/%7Erick/faq/index.php?page=virus#virus5>
> <http://linuxmafia.com/%7Erick/faq/index.php?page=virus#virus5>)
> > </deadpan>
> >
> > --
> > Cheers,             The shortest distance between two puns is a
> > straightline.
> > Rick Moen
> > rick at linuxmafia.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > sf-lug mailing list
> > sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> > http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
> >
>
> ----- End forwarded message -----
>
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From rick at linuxmafia.com  Thu Jul 30 15:39:10 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 15:39:10 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] (forw) Re: [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] How did
	you	become a Linux user?
In-Reply-To: <24b40b2b0907301532t7529f0d7i712758a14ba01f5a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090730222659.GH18928@linuxmafia.com>
	<24b40b2b0907301532t7529f0d7i712758a14ba01f5a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090730223910.GI18928@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting chaitanya mehandru (chinku.linux at gmail.com):

> What i know is tht the viruses for linux affectonly the local user.....and
> not keep spreading all over. Well, the text is worth reading. and it also
> mentions that the virus will change permissions,etc,etc. and affect the
> files of a user who executed the binary. More i will read.....and also
> willing to talk about it more with you and other folks.

Uh... if you read the page, you presumably came across text like this:

  Linux systems' architecture and culture, by design, resist such petty
  nuisances, and create sufficient default protections that anyone
  careless enough to be exposed to Linux "malware" (viruses and such) has
  bigger and more fundamental worries:  By and large, you can be hit at
  all only by being really dumb.[link]  By and large, you can suffer
  system (root) compromise from malware only by being mind-bogglingly
  dumb.

-- 
Cheers,                 "Due to circumstances beyond our control, we regret to
Rick Moen               inform you that circumstances are beyond our control."
rick at linuxmafia.com                                              --Paul Benoit



From tigakub at mac.com  Thu Jul 30 16:01:35 2009
From: tigakub at mac.com (Edward Janne)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 16:01:35 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] Linux growth
In-Reply-To: <20090730174957.GM26829@linuxmafia.com>
References: <bd7bad4c0907281138j306ac030j205ab4a606f69467@mail.gmail.com>
	<ACB436EB-9772-4F7D-B0BE-D72010D281B5@mac.com>
	<20090728221437.GY26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<20090729003240.GA15655@linuxmafia.com>
	<7B2E7036-4B1C-4417-82E4-030897D744C9@mac.com>
	<1248882606.6860.104.camel@jim-laptop>
	<1975FE68-8B95-4132-A879-E0831B187A7B@mac.com>
	<22BE7F12-1A62-4175-8557-D13D77B34DEB@mac.com>
	<1248917850.6860.153.camel@jim-laptop>
	<6AAECA24-3B03-4FA8-9515-AEB21079B698@mac.com>
	<20090730174957.GM26829@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <0AFFC8EE-23DE-4F52-B680-FCC5526933F9@mac.com>

Thank you for your illuminating reply.

On Jul 30, 2009, at 10:49 AM, Rick Moen wrote:

> Quoting Edward Janne (tigakub at mac.com):
>
>> Question 5: Is the Linux user base growing fast enough?
>
> I can tell that you're not a "process" thinker, because my immediate
> reaction was "Fast enough to accomplish _what_ specifically?"

For the purposes of my paper, would you mind going into more detail  
about how one would become a process thinker? Are there many forms of  
process, or is there one universal process? Is there a process to  
becoming a process thinker, or is one simply born a process thinker?  
Am I on the right track to becoming a process thinker?

>> What do the members of the group do to encourage adoption of the
>> platform?
>
> Your question suggests the zero-sum proprietary-OS mindset at work.
> It's kind of depressing to still encounter that in 2009.

Would you help me rephrase my questions to avoid lending the  
impression that I have a zero-sum proprietary-OS mindset? I'm not  
entirely sure what I have said to lead you to believe that. I really  
don't see how my question can be construed to imply that I believe  
that increasing the adoption of Linux detracts from other OS usage or  
vice versa. Is it the .mac in my e-mail? I can't remember ever typing  
the word "convert" nor validating or condemning any OS. If Linux is a  
good operating system, I would think everyone would like to see it  
more widely recognized and used, not because of mindless brand  
loyalty, but because it can benefit society. Is this an erroneous mind- 
set?

Also, can you help me understand how repeatedly belittling someone who  
is honestly seeking to understand the Linux community is constructive?  
Is it some kind of hazing ritual? Someone once threatened in jest to  
make me install Slackware as an initiation. Is that what you are doing?

-edj



From larry.cafiero at gmail.com  Thu Jul 30 16:42:26 2009
From: larry.cafiero at gmail.com (Larry Cafiero)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 16:42:26 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] Linux growth
In-Reply-To: <0AFFC8EE-23DE-4F52-B680-FCC5526933F9@mac.com>
References: <bd7bad4c0907281138j306ac030j205ab4a606f69467@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090729003240.GA15655@linuxmafia.com>
	<7B2E7036-4B1C-4417-82E4-030897D744C9@mac.com>
	<1248882606.6860.104.camel@jim-laptop>
	<1975FE68-8B95-4132-A879-E0831B187A7B@mac.com>
	<22BE7F12-1A62-4175-8557-D13D77B34DEB@mac.com>
	<1248917850.6860.153.camel@jim-laptop>
	<6AAECA24-3B03-4FA8-9515-AEB21079B698@mac.com>
	<20090730174957.GM26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<0AFFC8EE-23DE-4F52-B680-FCC5526933F9@mac.com>
Message-ID: <7a0d56080907301642t5706ed05j8c039e544aed81b2@mail.gmail.com>

<perspective>

You know, if this were a LUG in which I had some decision-making power
regarding the mailing list -- and I don't here (but I do have that power at
one elsewhere, incidentally) -- I think I would have done things somewhat
differently.

Primarily, I would have asked Edward -- "asked," leaving him to comply or
not -- to:

-- Submit all his questions at once, rather than stringing them along
(which, in my opinion, makes it appear that Edward's "making this thing up
as he goes along." He may not be, but that's the appearance); and

-- Submit an electronic version of the paper, once it's turned in to his
class, to the mailing list so we can see the results of his research in
which we've given our time; and

-- Supply me with his teacher's/faculty advisor's e-mail or other contact
information so I can confirm this assignment; and

-- Attend a meeting to interview LUG members in person.

Second, of the mailing list denizens, I would have asked them -- again,
"asked," leaving them to comply or not -- to:

-- Answer Edward individually, as to avoid the spike in mailing list traffic
which might impede other discussion; and

-- Come to a meeting where Edward would be available to ask questions and
collect answers.

So, Edward, you've asked an awful lot of this group for the benefit of a
homework assignment, and I think you should be aware of that. My hope is
that you appreciate the effort put forth by everyone who has responded,
regardless of the answers.

Larry Cafiero

</perspective>

On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 4:01 PM, Edward Janne <tigakub at mac.com> wrote:

> Thank you for your illuminating reply.
>
> On Jul 30, 2009, at 10:49 AM, Rick Moen wrote:
>
>  Quoting Edward Janne (tigakub at mac.com):
>>
>>  Question 5: Is the Linux user base growing fast enough?
>>>
>>
>> I can tell that you're not a "process" thinker, because my immediate
>> reaction was "Fast enough to accomplish _what_ specifically?"
>>
>
> For the purposes of my paper, would you mind going into more detail about
> how one would become a process thinker? Are there many forms of process, or
> is there one universal process? Is there a process to becoming a process
> thinker, or is one simply born a process thinker? Am I on the right track to
> becoming a process thinker?
>
>  What do the members of the group do to encourage adoption of the
>>> platform?
>>>
>>
>> Your question suggests the zero-sum proprietary-OS mindset at work.
>> It's kind of depressing to still encounter that in 2009.
>>
>
> Would you help me rephrase my questions to avoid lending the impression
> that I have a zero-sum proprietary-OS mindset? I'm not entirely sure what I
> have said to lead you to believe that. I really don't see how my question
> can be construed to imply that I believe that increasing the adoption of
> Linux detracts from other OS usage or vice versa. Is it the .mac in my
> e-mail? I can't remember ever typing the word "convert" nor validating or
> condemning any OS. If Linux is a good operating system, I would think
> everyone would like to see it more widely recognized and used, not because
> of mindless brand loyalty, but because it can benefit society. Is this an
> erroneous mind-set?
>
> Also, can you help me understand how repeatedly belittling someone who is
> honestly seeking to understand the Linux community is constructive? Is it
> some kind of hazing ritual? Someone once threatened in jest to make me
> install Slackware as an initiation. Is that what you are doing?
>
> -edj
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>
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From nbs at sonic.net  Thu Jul 30 16:55:58 2009
From: nbs at sonic.net (Bill Kendrick)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 16:55:58 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] Linux growth
In-Reply-To: <7a0d56080907301642t5706ed05j8c039e544aed81b2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090729003240.GA15655@linuxmafia.com>
	<7B2E7036-4B1C-4417-82E4-030897D744C9@mac.com>
	<1248882606.6860.104.camel@jim-laptop>
	<1975FE68-8B95-4132-A879-E0831B187A7B@mac.com>
	<22BE7F12-1A62-4175-8557-D13D77B34DEB@mac.com>
	<1248917850.6860.153.camel@jim-laptop>
	<6AAECA24-3B03-4FA8-9515-AEB21079B698@mac.com>
	<20090730174957.GM26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<0AFFC8EE-23DE-4F52-B680-FCC5526933F9@mac.com>
	<7a0d56080907301642t5706ed05j8c039e544aed81b2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090730235557.GC8964@sonic.net>

On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 04:42:26PM -0700, Larry Cafiero wrote:
>    -- Supply me with his teacher's/faculty advisor's e-mail or other contact
>    information so I can confirm this assignment; and
> 
>    -- Attend a meeting to interview LUG members in person.

I appreciate how Sameer Verma and Leigh Jin from SFSU did their research
with LUGOD (and other LUGs, I think).  Hi guys. ;)


>    Second, of the mailing list denizens, I would have asked them -- again,
>    "asked," leaving them to comply or not -- to:
> 
>    -- Answer Edward individually, as to avoid the spike in mailing list
>    traffic which might impede other discussion; and

I've found the discussion enjoyable, frankly. ;)

-bill!



From larry.cafiero at gmail.com  Thu Jul 30 17:10:00 2009
From: larry.cafiero at gmail.com (Larry Cafiero)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 17:10:00 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] Linux growth
In-Reply-To: <20090730235557.GC8964@sonic.net>
References: <20090729003240.GA15655@linuxmafia.com>
	<1248882606.6860.104.camel@jim-laptop>
	<1975FE68-8B95-4132-A879-E0831B187A7B@mac.com>
	<22BE7F12-1A62-4175-8557-D13D77B34DEB@mac.com>
	<1248917850.6860.153.camel@jim-laptop>
	<6AAECA24-3B03-4FA8-9515-AEB21079B698@mac.com>
	<20090730174957.GM26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<0AFFC8EE-23DE-4F52-B680-FCC5526933F9@mac.com>
	<7a0d56080907301642t5706ed05j8c039e544aed81b2@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090730235557.GC8964@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <7a0d56080907301710w18ba7d95r59fe7c7f1ac1ac69@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Bill Kendrick <nbs at sonic.net> wrote:

>
> I've found the discussion enjoyable, frankly. ;)


Agreed -- and entertaining to boot. But my point is that I'm not sure that a
questionnaire of this kind was a.) the best way to run a series of question
by us in the first place, and b.) having said that, the best use of the
facilities in this mailing list. Again, this is my opinion and my opinion
alone (though it's one that's GPLed and readily available to anyone to adopt
as their own).
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From toya at linefeed.org  Thu Jul 30 16:59:29 2009
From: toya at linefeed.org (toya)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 16:59:29 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] Linux growth
In-Reply-To: <7a0d56080907301710w18ba7d95r59fe7c7f1ac1ac69@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090729003240.GA15655@linuxmafia.com>	<1248882606.6860.104.camel@jim-laptop>	<1975FE68-8B95-4132-A879-E0831B187A7B@mac.com>	<22BE7F12-1A62-4175-8557-D13D77B34DEB@mac.com>	<1248917850.6860.153.camel@jim-laptop>	<6AAECA24-3B03-4FA8-9515-AEB21079B698@mac.com>	<20090730174957.GM26829@linuxmafia.com>	<0AFFC8EE-23DE-4F52-B680-FCC5526933F9@mac.com>	<7a0d56080907301642t5706ed05j8c039e544aed81b2@mail.gmail.com>	<20090730235557.GC8964@sonic.net>
	<7a0d56080907301710w18ba7d95r59fe7c7f1ac1ac69@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A7233E1.1030504@linefeed.org>

My suggestion would be to have at least changed the subject, each
question should have being placed on the subject of the msg. That would
have made it easier for people to follow and answer... I didn't answer
because I got lost in the emails... I saw question 1 and 2 then 5... was
a bit confuse.

Or put it somewhere -> limesurvey is a good free software for this kind
of thing.

The idea to go to a meeting is good too. Also, I would suggest to go to
install fests like the St Anthony's event, there you will find people
who 'just' decided to install linux and I think it would be interested
to hear what they have to say.

:) just my 2cents since I couldn't reply to the survey.

bye,
Toya




Larry Cafiero wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Bill Kendrick <nbs at sonic.net
> <mailto:nbs at sonic.net>> wrote:
>
>
>     I've found the discussion enjoyable, frankly. ;)
>
>
> Agreed -- and entertaining to boot. But my point is that I'm not sure
> that a questionnaire of this kind was a.) the best way to run a series
> of question by us in the first place, and b.) having said that, the
> best use of the facilities in this mailing list. Again, this is my
> opinion and my opinion alone (though it's one that's GPLed and readily
> available to anyone to adopt as their own).
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>   




From rick at linuxmafia.com  Thu Jul 30 18:10:01 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 18:10:01 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] Linux growth
In-Reply-To: <0AFFC8EE-23DE-4F52-B680-FCC5526933F9@mac.com>
References: <20090728221437.GY26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<20090729003240.GA15655@linuxmafia.com>
	<7B2E7036-4B1C-4417-82E4-030897D744C9@mac.com>
	<1248882606.6860.104.camel@jim-laptop>
	<1975FE68-8B95-4132-A879-E0831B187A7B@mac.com>
	<22BE7F12-1A62-4175-8557-D13D77B34DEB@mac.com>
	<1248917850.6860.153.camel@jim-laptop>
	<6AAECA24-3B03-4FA8-9515-AEB21079B698@mac.com>
	<20090730174957.GM26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<0AFFC8EE-23DE-4F52-B680-FCC5526933F9@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20090731011001.GX26829@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Edward Janne (tigakub at mac.com):

> Would you help me rephrase my questions to avoid lending the
> impression that I have a zero-sum proprietary-OS mindset? I'm not
> entirely sure what I have said to lead you to believe that. 

It's sort of inherent in the underlying assumption that levels of
"adoption of the platform" and the "user base growing fast enough"
are significant concerns, in the first place.  (If you can't see that,
then I'm sorry, but we're probably not going to get anywhere.)

We get that from people all the time, generally leading to a polite
"You're new here, right?" reaction. ;->  E.g.:

  Newcomer:  "We all need to go out and convince all new and novice
  computer users to use Firefox."

  Us:  "Why?  How's that good for us, except in a very general sense of
  slightly promoting W3C standards?"

  Newcomer:  "Bringing in hordes of new users would help Firefox
  development."

  Us:  "Sorry, I can't see how."

  Newcomer:  "It'll help the code by resulting in a great deal more bug
  reports."

  Us:  "Deluging the Firefox team with badly conceived and probably
  useless bug reports, not to mention probably misdirected helpdesk
  requests, would not be helping the project.  Probably a lot more 
  like hurting it severely."

  Newcomer:  "More mindshare would better motivate the developers to do a
  good job."

  Us:  "Again, I can't see it.  Developers are already motivated to do a
  good job.  Why would their knowledge that there are suddenly a couple 
  million more users particularly inspire them?  Doesn't make sense."

  Newcomer:  "It'd result in more resources being available to the
  coders."

  Us:  "Excuse me, but how does that work?  It's not like there's some
  fixed-size pool of money, and it's apportioned among Firefox, MSIE,
  Opera, Safari, Konqueror, and others according to userbase share.  
  The people who get paid are typically getting paid on some other basis
  entirely, especially in the case of the open source codebases."

I swear I've had that exact conversation on mailing lists and newsgroups
about a dozen times (though I might be omitting some of the obligatory
non-sequitur arguments).



> For the purposes of my paper, would you mind going into more detail  
> about how one would become a process thinker? 

Pretty much the same way one gets to Carnegie Hall.  (I trust you know
the joke.)


It helps to concentrate for a while on actually figuring out problems,
as opposed to just asking other people for the answers -- and I'm not
calling particular attention to the fact that you've been rather
steadfastly doing the latter and not the former since your arrival, here. 
Rather, that's my intent to squarely answer your question as posed.

Often, the first step is to think to yourself "How would I determine the
answer to that question?" For example:  When I was a boy, I started
having some seasonal allergies (to what exactly was never clear).
People would come up and say "Do you have a cold?"

For quite a while, that question bothered me in a fundamental way, but I
couldn't quite put my finger on why.  Then, one day, upon being asked
that question, I suddenly thought: "How would I know?"

In other words, having a runny nose logically means _either_ that one
encountered an irritant (peeling an onion, whatever) _or_ is having an
allergic attack, _or_ is coming down with a cold.  So, logically, if
someone asks you if you have a cold, your first reaction really ought to
be:  How would one determine the answer to that question?   Is there a
process by which one can disambiguate those possibilities, either
zeroing in on one as the confirmed cause or managing to eliminate the
others as candidates?  How do you know you aren't _both_ having an
allergic reaction to (e.g.) cat dander or ragweed pollen _and_ coming
down with a cold?

It turns out, those are often extremely difficult questions to answer, 
so within reason there is often no way to properly answer the original
question.

Basically, it's a rather silly question -- which becomes obvious if you
think "process", and apparently isn't if you don't.



> If Linux is a good operating system, I would think everyone would like
> to see it more widely recognized and used, not because of mindless
> brand loyalty, but because it can benefit society.

Sure, in a very general and low-priority sense, that's possibly the
case, except that it's rather ridiculous to suggest that Linux isn't
"widely recognised" post-1998, and it's extremely available for use by
people wanting it, so in general I have thousands of higher priorities
than making sure it's "more widely recognized and used".  For that
matter, making sure it's "used" sounds rather obnoxiously pushy: 
It will be "used" to the extent that people find it useful.  My
attempting to _make_ it be used seems, on the face of it, to be
somewhere between rude and pointless, depending on how. 

Besides, who says Linux is "a good operating system"?  Good for what?
(Again, that is thinking in _process_ terms.)  Isn't it a question
of utility, that what's good for one person in his/her particular
circumstances would be terrible for another?  Why would I want to go
about convincing people that Linux is categorically "good", when that is
obviously not the case?

> Also, can you help me understand how repeatedly belittling someone who  
> is honestly seeking to understand the Linux community is constructive?  

Can you understand that peppering us with a series of rather poorly
thought out questions in our own community forum, taking over that forum
to get us to help you do your homework, is not at all endearing?  Can 
you get, belatedly, my broad hint that your bothering to do a bit of 
looking around on your own would save a great deal of time for you and
for everyone else?

> Is it some kind of hazing ritual? 

Are you having sense-of-entitlement problems?

Is this entire conversation going to devolve to questions?





From tigakub at mac.com  Thu Jul 30 19:11:00 2009
From: tigakub at mac.com (Edward Janne)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 19:11:00 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] Linux growth
In-Reply-To: <20090731011001.GX26829@linuxmafia.com>
References: <20090728221437.GY26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<20090729003240.GA15655@linuxmafia.com>
	<7B2E7036-4B1C-4417-82E4-030897D744C9@mac.com>
	<1248882606.6860.104.camel@jim-laptop>
	<1975FE68-8B95-4132-A879-E0831B187A7B@mac.com>
	<22BE7F12-1A62-4175-8557-D13D77B34DEB@mac.com>
	<1248917850.6860.153.camel@jim-laptop>
	<6AAECA24-3B03-4FA8-9515-AEB21079B698@mac.com>
	<20090730174957.GM26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<0AFFC8EE-23DE-4F52-B680-FCC5526933F9@mac.com>
	<20090731011001.GX26829@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <DF922745-1450-4E29-8D01-92B92E89B4F6@mac.com>

On Jul 30, 2009, at 6:10 PM, Rick Moen wrote:

> Quoting Edward Janne (tigakub at mac.com):
>
>> Would you help me rephrase my questions to avoid lending the
>> impression that I have a zero-sum proprietary-OS mindset? I'm not
>> entirely sure what I have said to lead you to believe that.
>
> It's sort of inherent in the underlying assumption that levels of
> "adoption of the platform" and the "user base growing fast enough"
> are significant concerns, in the first place.  (If you can't see that,
> then I'm sorry, but we're probably not going to get anywhere.)
>
> We get that from people all the time, generally leading to a polite
> "You're new here, right?" reaction. ;->  E.g.:
>
>  Newcomer:  "We all need to go out and convince all new and novice
>  computer users to use Firefox."
>
>  Us:  "Why?  How's that good for us, except in a very general sense of
>  slightly promoting W3C standards?"
>
>  Newcomer:  "Bringing in hordes of new users would help Firefox
>  development."
>
>  Us:  "Sorry, I can't see how."
>
>  Newcomer:  "It'll help the code by resulting in a great deal more bug
>  reports."
>
>  Us:  "Deluging the Firefox team with badly conceived and probably
>  useless bug reports, not to mention probably misdirected helpdesk
>  requests, would not be helping the project.  Probably a lot more
>  like hurting it severely."
>
>  Newcomer:  "More mindshare would better motivate the developers to  
> do a
>  good job."
>
>  Us:  "Again, I can't see it.  Developers are already motivated to  
> do a
>  good job.  Why would their knowledge that there are suddenly a couple
>  million more users particularly inspire them?  Doesn't make sense."
>
>  Newcomer:  "It'd result in more resources being available to the
>  coders."
>
>  Us:  "Excuse me, but how does that work?  It's not like there's some
>  fixed-size pool of money, and it's apportioned among Firefox, MSIE,
>  Opera, Safari, Konqueror, and others according to userbase share.
>  The people who get paid are typically getting paid on some other  
> basis
>  entirely, especially in the case of the open source codebases."
>
> I swear I've had that exact conversation on mailing lists and  
> newsgroups
> about a dozen times (though I might be omitting some of the obligatory
> non-sequitur arguments).
>
>
>
>> For the purposes of my paper, would you mind going into more detail
>> about how one would become a process thinker?
>
> Pretty much the same way one gets to Carnegie Hall.  (I trust you know
> the joke.)
>
>
> It helps to concentrate for a while on actually figuring out problems,
> as opposed to just asking other people for the answers -- and I'm not
> calling particular attention to the fact that you've been rather
> steadfastly doing the latter and not the former since your arrival,  
> here.
> Rather, that's my intent to squarely answer your question as posed.
>
> Often, the first step is to think to yourself "How would I determine  
> the
> answer to that question?" For example:  When I was a boy, I started
> having some seasonal allergies (to what exactly was never clear).
> People would come up and say "Do you have a cold?"
>
> For quite a while, that question bothered me in a fundamental way,  
> but I
> couldn't quite put my finger on why.  Then, one day, upon being asked
> that question, I suddenly thought: "How would I know?"
>
> In other words, having a runny nose logically means _either_ that one
> encountered an irritant (peeling an onion, whatever) _or_ is having an
> allergic attack, _or_ is coming down with a cold.  So, logically, if
> someone asks you if you have a cold, your first reaction really  
> ought to
> be:  How would one determine the answer to that question?   Is there a
> process by which one can disambiguate those possibilities, either
> zeroing in on one as the confirmed cause or managing to eliminate the
> others as candidates?  How do you know you aren't _both_ having an
> allergic reaction to (e.g.) cat dander or ragweed pollen _and_ coming
> down with a cold?
>
> It turns out, those are often extremely difficult questions to answer,
> so within reason there is often no way to properly answer the original
> question.
>
> Basically, it's a rather silly question -- which becomes obvious if  
> you
> think "process", and apparently isn't if you don't.
>
>
>
>> If Linux is a good operating system, I would think everyone would  
>> like
>> to see it more widely recognized and used, not because of mindless
>> brand loyalty, but because it can benefit society.
>
> Sure, in a very general and low-priority sense, that's possibly the
> case, except that it's rather ridiculous to suggest that Linux isn't
> "widely recognised" post-1998, and it's extremely available for use by
> people wanting it, so in general I have thousands of higher priorities
> than making sure it's "more widely recognized and used".  For that
> matter, making sure it's "used" sounds rather obnoxiously pushy:
> It will be "used" to the extent that people find it useful.  My
> attempting to _make_ it be used seems, on the face of it, to be
> somewhere between rude and pointless, depending on how.
>
> Besides, who says Linux is "a good operating system"?  Good for what?
> (Again, that is thinking in _process_ terms.)  Isn't it a question
> of utility, that what's good for one person in his/her particular
> circumstances would be terrible for another?  Why would I want to go
> about convincing people that Linux is categorically "good", when  
> that is
> obviously not the case?
>
>> Also, can you help me understand how repeatedly belittling someone  
>> who
>> is honestly seeking to understand the Linux community is  
>> constructive?
>
> Can you understand that peppering us with a series of rather poorly
> thought out questions in our own community forum, taking over that  
> forum
> to get us to help you do your homework, is not at all endearing?  Can
> you get, belatedly, my broad hint that your bothering to do a bit of
> looking around on your own would save a great deal of time for you and
> for everyone else?
>
>> Is it some kind of hazing ritual?
>
> Are you having sense-of-entitlement problems?
>
> Is this entire conversation going to devolve to questions?
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug

Thank you for your very pointed response. It would have sufficed to  
simply ask me to stop. you needn't have taken so much of your valuable  
time with your hint that I was obviously too obtuse to get. Thank you  
for pointing out one more of my deficiencies.

For what it's worth, your responses have given me a lot of data to  
work with. They have been very informative if not entirely pleasant to  
read.

As for the hazing question, it was mainly earnest. I thought you might  
be giving me a hard time to see how persistent I would be. I now see  
that I was wrong and that you simply do not want me here. I respect  
that.

-edj




From maiwurd at gmail.com  Thu Jul 30 19:31:38 2009
From: maiwurd at gmail.com (Bradley Haynes)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 19:31:38 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] sf-lug Digest, Vol 42, Issue 37
In-Reply-To: <mailman.211.1248999012.1647.sf-lug@linuxmafia.com>
References: <mailman.211.1248999012.1647.sf-lug@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <4A72578A.5090303@gmail.com>

So here we are in a pseudo flame session yet again. I suppose I should
refrain from reading this BBS 'til the cows come home; and the homework
 assignment is done... It is as if this mail list has been hijacked. Or
is there nothing better to discuss here? Is there no one having issues
with which they wish to share so we can learn as we post solution tracks?

sf-lug-request at linuxmafia.com wrote:
> Send sf-lug mailing list submissions to
> 	sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> 	http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> 	sf-lug-request at linuxmafia.com
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> 	sf-lug-owner at linuxmafia.com
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of sf-lug digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. Re: (forw) Re: [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] How did you	become a
>       Linux user? (chaitanya mehandru)
>    2. Re: (forw) Re: [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] How did	you	become a
>       Linux user? (Rick Moen)
>    3. Re: [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] Linux growth (Edward Janne)
>    4. Re: [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] Linux growth (Larry Cafiero)
>    5. Re: [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] Linux growth (Bill Kendrick)
>    6. Re: [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] Linux growth (Larry Cafiero)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 04:02:13 +0530
> From: chaitanya mehandru <chinku.linux at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [sf-lug] (forw) Re: [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] How did you
> 	become a Linux user?
> To: Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com>, sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> Message-ID:
> 	<24b40b2b0907301532t7529f0d7i712758a14ba01f5a at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> What i know is tht the viruses for linux affectonly the local user.....and
> not keep spreading all over. Well, the text is worth reading. and it also
> mentions that the virus will change permissions,etc,etc. and affect the
> files of a user who executed the binary. More i will read.....and also
> willing to talk about it more with you and other folks.
> 
> 
>> ----- Forwarded message from chaitanya mehandru <chinku.linux at gmail.com>
>> -----
>>
>> Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 03:49:58 +0530
>> From: chaitanya mehandru <chinku.linux at gmail.com>
>> To: Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com>
>> X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE,
>>        SPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.2.5
>> Subject: Re: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] How did you become a Linux
>>        user?
>>
>> Hi Rick,
>> So that means linux is at a risk from these viruses/worms? These viruses
>> will work in some exceptional cases only!!!
>> Can we say that Linux is still secure as compared to windows?
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 3:28 AM, Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Quoting chaitanya mehandru (chinku.linux at gmail.com):
>>>
>>>> Also, security is an important concern and there is nothing to worry
>>> about
>>>> viruses on linux.
>>> <deadpan>
>>> Even though there have been 66 viruses and 12 worms released to attack
>>> Linux specifically?  (Reference:
>>> http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/index.php?page=virus#virus5<http://linuxmafia.com/%7Erick/faq/index.php?page=virus#virus5>
>> <http://linuxmafia.com/%7Erick/faq/index.php?page=virus#virus5>)
>>> </deadpan>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Cheers,             The shortest distance between two puns is a
>>> straightline.
>>> Rick Moen
>>> rick at linuxmafia.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> sf-lug mailing list
>>> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
>>> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>>>
>> ----- End forwarded message -----
>>
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> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 15:39:10 -0700
> From: Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com>
> Subject: Re: [sf-lug] (forw) Re: [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] How did	you
> 	become a Linux user?
> To: sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> Message-ID: <20090730223910.GI18928 at linuxmafia.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> 
> Quoting chaitanya mehandru (chinku.linux at gmail.com):
> 
>> What i know is tht the viruses for linux affectonly the local user.....and
>> not keep spreading all over. Well, the text is worth reading. and it also
>> mentions that the virus will change permissions,etc,etc. and affect the
>> files of a user who executed the binary. More i will read.....and also
>> willing to talk about it more with you and other folks.
> 
> Uh... if you read the page, you presumably came across text like this:
> 
>   Linux systems' architecture and culture, by design, resist such petty
>   nuisances, and create sufficient default protections that anyone
>   careless enough to be exposed to Linux "malware" (viruses and such) has
>   bigger and more fundamental worries:  By and large, you can be hit at
>   all only by being really dumb.[link]  By and large, you can suffer
>   system (root) compromise from malware only by being mind-bogglingly
>   dumb.
> 




From nbs at sonic.net  Thu Jul 30 19:44:59 2009
From: nbs at sonic.net (Bill Kendrick)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 19:44:59 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [fwd] ToonTalk going open source
Message-ID: <20090731024459.GD2921@sonic.net>


If anyone feels like porting a Windows app that has recently been
re-licensed as open source. >:^)

Seen on the SchoolForge mailing list:

----- Forwarded message from Yishay Mor -----

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 02:27:40 +0100
From: Yishay Mor
Subject: [school-discuss] ToonTalk going open source

   I have used ToonTalk as a programming language with 10-15 year olds, and I
   know of people who have used it in kindergartens. ToonTalk is great fun
   (once you get into the hang of it) and is also very satesfing from an
   educators perspective: literally within hours of initial encounter, kids
   with no privios programming experience can produce meanigfull code.

   ToonTalk's looks are deceptive. It gives the impression of a pre-school
   video game, but under the cover it is a concurent logical programming
   language, as powerful as any.

   Today Ken Kahn, toontalk's creator and owner, has released its code under
   a new BSD license. I think this is a wonderful opportunity for the
   community. Unfortunatly, the current code base is configured for Microsoft
   Visual Studio, and compiles to a windows execuatble. But I'm sure someone
   will change that soon enough :) While I don't think Ken intends to lead
   any porting effort, he's very approachable and always happy to help.

   See:
   http://toontalk.com/
   http://code.google.com/p/toontalk/

   ___________________________
    Yishay Mor, Researcher, London Knowledge Lab
     http://www.lkl.ac.uk/people/mor.html
     http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=yishaym%40gmail.com
     +44-20-78378888 x5737

   ---------- Forwarded message ----------
   From: Ken Kahn <toontalk at googlemail.com>
   Date: 2009/7/30
   Subject: [ToonTalk] ToonTalk source code is now available
   To: ToonTalk at yahoogroups.com

    

   Dear ToonTalkers,

   I uploaded the ToonTalk source files to Google Code:

   http://code.google.com/p/toontalk/source/browse/

   While I spent some effort deleting extraneous and obsolete files there is
   probably lots left. The code itself is the result of 15 years of
   development so it varies in quality, readability, and documentation.

   If anyone wants to take the code further (e.g. maybe make a web-based
   version) I'll be glad to advise and put more work into cleaning up the
   code. If a project to make a web-based ToonTalk were to be funded I'd be
   more than happy to participate.

   Best,

   -ken

   .
   __,_._,___

----- End forwarded message -----

-- 
-bill!
Sent from my computer



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Thu Jul 30 19:56:09 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 19:56:09 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] sf-lug Digest, Vol 42, Issue 37
In-Reply-To: <4A72578A.5090303@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.211.1248999012.1647.sf-lug@linuxmafia.com>
	<4A72578A.5090303@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090731025609.GY26829@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Bradley Haynes (maiwurd at gmail.com):

> So here we are in a pseudo flame session yet again.

A reference to an essay explaining how Linux viruses do and do not work
is a pseudo flame session?


> It is as if this mail list has been hijacked. 

Somebody should definitely complain to the guy who built and runs the
machine the mailing list runs on.  Won't he be annoyed!  ;->

> Or is there nothing better to discuss here? 

Just curious:  Did you even bother to look at the essay?  




From rick at linuxmafia.com  Thu Jul 30 20:54:25 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 20:54:25 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] Linux growth
In-Reply-To: <DF922745-1450-4E29-8D01-92B92E89B4F6@mac.com>
References: <7B2E7036-4B1C-4417-82E4-030897D744C9@mac.com>
	<1248882606.6860.104.camel@jim-laptop>
	<1975FE68-8B95-4132-A879-E0831B187A7B@mac.com>
	<22BE7F12-1A62-4175-8557-D13D77B34DEB@mac.com>
	<1248917850.6860.153.camel@jim-laptop>
	<6AAECA24-3B03-4FA8-9515-AEB21079B698@mac.com>
	<20090730174957.GM26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<0AFFC8EE-23DE-4F52-B680-FCC5526933F9@mac.com>
	<20090731011001.GX26829@linuxmafia.com>
	<DF922745-1450-4E29-8D01-92B92E89B4F6@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20090731035425.GA22714@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Edward Janne (tigakub at mac.com):

[...]
> I now see  that I was wrong and that you simply do not want me here. I
> respect that.

Passive-aggressive much?

I of course nowhere suggested, nor do I wish, that you not be here.
I _did_ at one point suggest that the normal and customary thing would 
be to conduct your survey using one of the standard (and free of charge) 
services for that purpose - or just put the questions on a Web page and
ask people to directly e-mail you the answers.  And I notice that I'm
not alone in making that comment.

I actually also put quite a lot of time and effort into illustrating
what is meant process thinking.  Because you asked.  

_Do_ you know how to get to Carnegie Hall, by the way?  It'd be shame to
have you not know the joke.




From grantbow at gmail.com  Fri Jul 31 12:30:59 2009
From: grantbow at gmail.com (Grant Bowman)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 12:30:59 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] quick report on saturday's Tech Fair
In-Reply-To: <809574.17283.qm@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <809574.17283.qm@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <317e39f0907311230t1670fc26qf170fce1b21bd6b3@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

I am the Ubuntu California Local Community (LoCo) person you
mentioned.  Though I came near the end of the Tech Faire event last
week, I am glad I was able to meet you and see the facility at 150
Golden Gate Ave.

Here's another way to get involved with St. Anthony's.
http://www.stanthonysf.org/volunteer/volunteer-orientation.html  I
plan to attend a "Basic Volunteer Orientation" session scheduled for
Saturday, August 8th from 10:30-12:45.

Cheers,

Grant Bowman
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam


On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 11:41 AM, Lx Rudis<lx_rudis at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> jim s:
>> what kind of help do you need
>
> thanks for the reply!
> [...]



From maiwurd at gmail.com  Fri Jul 31 13:38:02 2009
From: maiwurd at gmail.com (mai wurd)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 13:38:02 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] sf-lug Digest, Vol 42, Issue 39
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1249066803.13338.sf-lug@linuxmafia.com>
References: <mailman.3.1249066803.13338.sf-lug@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <fb3a04160907311338v36d910a5w6d77ad0b851400bf@mail.gmail.com>

The pseudo flame comment was in reference to some of the nitpicking in the
responses to some of the survey questions.
Any  information that server as a learning opportunity is always appreciated
by me. ie "A reference to an essay explaining how Linux viruses do and do
not work"

The hijacking connotation has more to do with subject matter that as a
literal as in browser hijacking.

I need not defend myself nor my intense drive to learn more and more about
Linux and its' application.

On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 12:00 PM, <sf-lug-request at linuxmafia.com> wrote:

> Send sf-lug mailing list submissions to
>        sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>        http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>        sf-lug-request at linuxmafia.com
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>        sf-lug-owner at linuxmafia.com
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of sf-lug digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: sf-lug Digest, Vol 42, Issue 37 (Rick Moen)
>   2. Re: [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] Linux growth (Rick Moen)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 19:56:09 -0700
> From: Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com>
> Subject: Re: [sf-lug] sf-lug Digest, Vol 42, Issue 37
> To: sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> Message-ID: <20090731025609.GY26829 at linuxmafia.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Quoting Bradley Haynes (maiwurd at gmail.com):
>
> > So here we are in a pseudo flame session yet again.
>
> A reference to an essay explaining how Linux viruses do and do not work
> is a pseudo flame session?
>
>
> > It is as if this mail list has been hijacked.
>
> Somebody should definitely complain to the guy who built and runs the
> machine the mailing list runs on.  Won't he be annoyed!  ;->
>
> > Or is there nothing better to discuss here?
>
> Just curious:  Did you even bother to look at the essay?
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 20:54:25 -0700
> From: Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com>
> Subject: Re: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE] Linux growth
> To: sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> Message-ID: <20090731035425.GA22714 at linuxmafia.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Quoting Edward Janne (tigakub at mac.com):
>
> [...]
> > I now see  that I was wrong and that you simply do not want me here. I
> > respect that.
>
> Passive-aggressive much?
>
> I of course nowhere suggested, nor do I wish, that you not be here.
> I _did_ at one point suggest that the normal and customary thing would
> be to conduct your survey using one of the standard (and free of charge)
> services for that purpose - or just put the questions on a Web page and
> ask people to directly e-mail you the answers.  And I notice that I'm
> not alone in making that comment.
>
> I actually also put quite a lot of time and effort into illustrating
> what is meant process thinking.  Because you asked.
>
> _Do_ you know how to get to Carnegie Hall, by the way?  It'd be shame to
> have you not know the joke.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>
>
> End of sf-lug Digest, Vol 42, Issue 39
> **************************************
>



-- 
Always think about positive affirmations before going to sleep. This spirit
guides our subconscious as we sleep and creates our reality.
Giving thanks, for that which has not happened yet, allows a spirit/life
pattern to manifest in our lives.
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From rick at linuxmafia.com  Fri Jul 31 14:07:28 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 14:07:28 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] sf-lug Digest, Vol 42, Issue 39
In-Reply-To: <fb3a04160907311338v36d910a5w6d77ad0b851400bf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3.1249066803.13338.sf-lug@linuxmafia.com>
	<fb3a04160907311338v36d910a5w6d77ad0b851400bf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090731210728.GH22722@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting mai wurd (maiwurd at gmail.com):

> The pseudo flame comment was in reference to some of the nitpicking in the
> responses to some of the survey questions.

Glad you have opinions.  Everyone should have a few.

Me, I don't think pointing out badly wrong fundamental assumptions comes
within a country mile of qualifying as nitpicking.  Nor do I think that
anything that _is_ properly classifiable as "nitpicking" is therefore
also a "flame session", pseudo or otherwise.

But hey, the sky might be some entirely different colour in your world.

-- 
Cheers,              "There once was a man from Nantucket,
Rick Moen            who lost his .sig in a bucket.
rick at linuxmafia.com  Five lines was too long, / columns 80 just strong,
McQ!  (4x80)         so he didn't know where to tuck it."  -- alt.fan.warlord



From einfeldt at gmail.com  Fri Jul 31 22:32:06 2009
From: einfeldt at gmail.com (Christian Einfeldt)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 22:32:06 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Microsoft tax refunded by Amazon UK! Please pass it on!
In-Reply-To: <20090723165205.GA26829@linuxmafia.com>
References: <4b5781040907230938m55d0246p46e461630a162561@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090723165205.GA26829@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <4b5781040907312232l5a8cf018m7393b76ad66ee7c5@mail.gmail.com>

hi,

Now another guy has gotten a story on Slashdot for getting a refund of his
Microsoft license:

http://news.slashdot.org/story/09/07/31/1215248/Amazon-US-Refunds-Windows-License-Fee-Too

The compressed URL is here:

http://is.gd/1X9Xf
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From john_re at fastmail.us  Sat Aug  1 01:44:19 2009
From: john_re at fastmail.us (john_re)
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 2009 01:44:19 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Aug 1 & 16- Global VOIP Free SW HW Culture meeting,
 BerkeleyTIP, For Forwarding
Message-ID: <1249116259.23618.1327807175@webmail.messagingengine.com>

Interested in joining the friendly global Free SW HW & Culture communities in a global Voice meeting?  You?re invited. :)

You can join from your home, or better: get a local meeting together. Tip: a college WiFi cafe could be a great local meeting place.  Make sure you have a VOIP headset!

For all details, see the website (I?m leaving out many sublinks to make this email smaller).
http://sites.google.com/site/berkeleytip

Start by joining #berkeleytip on IRC freenode.net.  We?ll help you get your VOIP connection working. :)

=====  MARK YOUR CALENDARS: 1st Sat & 3rd Sunday each month. August 1 & 16.
10A - 6P Pacific US time (+7H GMT, IIRC)
= 1P-9P Eastern US time = 5P - 1A GMT ?

Or, come to the local meeting on the UC Berkeley campus.
NOTE: SPECIAL LOCATION AUG 1: SEE BTIP WEBSITE FOR LOCATION,
& RSVP TO ME OR THE BTIP LISTS.

AUG 1 MEETING WILL BE 12N - 3P AT THE BTIP VOIP SERVER LOCATION 
ON THE UCB CAMPUS.  SEE THE WEBSITE FOR ROOM LOCATION.
We?ll hack on the new BTIP Asterisk VOIP server, in its presence.

PLEASE RSVP TO ME (John) OR THE LIST IF YOU WANT TO MEET AT OUR
USUAL LOCATION, THE FREE SPEECH CAFE, 10A-12n, 3-6PM,
(otherwise i might not be there).

=====  MEETING TOPICS FOR AUGUST:
1) Whatever _you_ want to work on - Email the BTIPGlobal list & 
let us know what your interests are.
2) Our VOIP conference server, using Asterisk.
3) Planning for year 2.

=====  JOIN FOR THE START OF YEAR 2 GLOBAL MEETINGs:
We had a great first year.  We had local attendees from around the San Francisco Bay Area & Northern California.  High School, College, Grad Students, & working & retired people attended.

>From the US, people joined the meeting (IRC or VOIP) from Hawaii to Virgina, Washington to Michigan to Florida. (+ California & other states.)

Globally, Sweden, Germany, England, Ireland, Iran & India (& maybe others I don?t recall right now.) :)

In May Richard Stallman joined the global meeting for Q & A about free SW & HW.

== YEAR 2 FOCUS: COLLEGE LOCAL MEETINGS, & AMERICAS? ANNOUNCEMENTS.

Two main things I?ll focus on this year:
1) Inviting groups to join at colleges & universities - BTIP is educational.  My hope: if more students learn about free SW hw & culture, some of them will then go on to become _contributors_. :)

2) I?ll try to get monthly announcements out to the biggest LUGs in the 10 largest countries in the Americas.

== What would _YOU_ like to accomplish this year?  Email the BTIP mail list, say ?hi?, tell us about your interests, projects & desires.

=====  FOR FORWARDING - You are invited to forward this announcement wherever you think it might be appreciated.



From tigakub at mac.com  Sat Aug  1 11:04:19 2009
From: tigakub at mac.com (tigakub at mac.com)
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 2009 18:04:19 +0000
Subject: [sf-lug] Edward Janne's Final Questionnaire for Cultural
	Anthropology
Message-ID: <000e0cd47c6ea87ff60470185da3@google.com>

Dear SF-LUG list members,

I'm an animation student at the Academy of Art University in San Francisco.  
As a part of my curriculum I'm taking a cultural anthropology class and I  
elected to study the San Francisco Linux Users Group for my final paper.

The theme of the paper is how being a Linux User informs identity through  
ways of speaking, categories of people and things, and common likes or  
dislikes. My aim is to understand group identity from your point of view. I  
have tried my best to draft the questions to this end, but should you feel  
they are inadequate in any way, please feel free to say so in the response,  
and I welcome any suggestions as to how I might improve them. There are no  
wrong answers.

There are eight questions, none of them mandatory. Some of you may have  
already answered a few on the mailing-list. If so please skip to the ones  
you have not, or feel free to elaborate.

My paper is due at midnight, Wedesday 8/5/2009 but I will be fielding  
responses up till then.

If you would like to receive a copy of my paper, please indicate so at the  
end of the questionnaire, and enter your e-mail in the space provided.

Any data collected here is for the sole purpose of writing my paper and  
will not be used for any other. However, my paper will be graded, and will  
be archived at the Academy of Art University for possible perusal by  
faculty and students.

Thank you all for your kind assistance and I look forward to reading your  
responses.

Yours sincerely,
Edward Janne



Course information follows.

Course Number: GS_603_OL5
Course Title: Anthropology: Experiencing Culture
Academy of Art University
http://online.academyart.edu/




I've invited you to fill out the form Edward Janne's Final Questionnaire  
for Cultural Anthropology. To fill it out, visit:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?formkey=dE40dGNrTU80aEdJeGFTVnFha3VGSHc6MA..

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From einfeldt at gmail.com  Sat Aug  1 13:28:56 2009
From: einfeldt at gmail.com (Christian Einfeldt)
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 13:28:56 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] request for ethernet cable, hubs, switches or routers
Message-ID: <4b5781040908011328l3157b3ebha28ab6841c87e109@mail.gmail.com>

hi,

If anyone in SF or near SF has ethernet cable, hubs, switches or routers
sitting in their closets unused and would like to share them, we culd use
them for our schools projects.  We are now supporting two public middle
schools in San Francisco with FOSS.

Thx either way.

c u
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From bliss at sfo.com  Sat Aug  1 14:09:02 2009
From: bliss at sfo.com (Bobbie Sellers)
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 2009 14:09:02 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] request for ethernet cable, hubs, switches or routers
In-Reply-To: <4b5781040908011328l3157b3ebha28ab6841c87e109@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4b5781040908011328l3157b3ebha28ab6841c87e109@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A74AEEE.9000009@sfo.com>

Christian Einfeldt wrote:
> hi,
>
> If anyone in SF or near SF has ethernet cable, hubs, switches or routers
> sitting in their closets unused and would like to share them, we culd use
> them for our schools projects.  We are now supporting two public middle
> schools in San Francisco with FOSS.
>
> Thx either way.
>
> c u
>
>   
    And where/ to whom do we deliver these remmants of a cabled age?

    later
    Bobbie Sellers



From einfeldt at gmail.com  Sat Aug  1 15:12:50 2009
From: einfeldt at gmail.com (Christian Einfeldt)
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 15:12:50 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] request for ethernet cable, hubs, switches or routers
In-Reply-To: <4A74A804.8000601@gmail.com>
References: <4b5781040908011328l3157b3ebha28ab6841c87e109@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A74A804.8000601@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4b5781040908011512n250f5d02t5e574babb1e1ad13@mail.gmail.com>

hi,

On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 1:39 PM, Michael Shiloh
<michaelshiloh1010 at gmail.com>wrote:

> I can probably dig out a few. We might also repost this on Dorkbot - I'm
>  happy to do this for you or feel free do to it yourself.


I have never been on Dorkbot.  If you are a long-time member there and would
like to do that, it would be great!  I will check out Dorbot now.


> Last time I was at CACS they had a bunch of random Ethernet cables in the
> closets - some of it looked pre-cat 5, but of the half a dozen pieces I used
> all worked fine.


I will check next time I am over to CACS.  They won't be open until Monday,
though, and we were hoping to get some work done today and tomorrow.
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From bliss at sfo.com  Sun Aug  2 14:46:01 2009
From: bliss at sfo.com (Bobbie Sellers)
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 2009 14:46:01 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Meeting this morning Sunday 2 August 2009
Message-ID: <4A760919.5020707@sfo.com>

    Well if you weren't there you missed it all.

   7 participants showed up and talked computing and what we do with
our computers, etc. 

    Edward J. was there and has installed Linux on an Apple I believe so he
is now a Linux user as well and must answer, as I pointed out, his own
questionnaire.

    Surprised that Jim S, didn't make it but he was undoubtedly busy with
other matters.

    3 or 4 people were left in discussion as I and 2 others left.

    later
    bliss



From nbs at sonic.net  Mon Aug  3 12:31:26 2009
From: nbs at sonic.net (Bill Kendrick)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 12:31:26 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Meeting this morning Sunday 2 August 2009
In-Reply-To: <4A760919.5020707@sfo.com>
References: <4A760919.5020707@sfo.com>
Message-ID: <20090803193126.GC17725@sonic.net>

On Sun, Aug 02, 2009 at 02:46:01PM -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>    Edward J. was there and has installed Linux on an Apple I

*laughing*

Sorry.  When I read that, I totally read it as this:

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_I

-bill!



From sfkeys at gmail.com  Mon Aug  3 12:45:17 2009
From: sfkeys at gmail.com (user)
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2009 12:45:17 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] I am a Linux user in San Francisco interested in helping
 with SFLUG or independent Linux or hardware projects
Message-ID: <4A773E4D.2010108@gmail.com>

I am visiting San Francisco for another week or two and have some time 
on my hands.  It would be fun to help out on some kind of  project and 
get my hands dirty, whether it's just setting up an OS, or upgrading 
hardware or networks, or a creative hack, making wifi antennas, or 
what-have-you.  I am windoze free and I am currently running Debian, 
Ubuntu, and Puppy for stable usage, and DSL, and Slitaz for live 
booting.  I loved that hardware chart that one of your members made.  
That's my desktop right now.  I've been using linux for about 5 years.  
I have some intermediate command line usage, if that's needed on anything.
I keep missing SFLUG meetings, but it would be cool to meet up if 
someone if working on a project and needs a hand.




From bliss at sfo.com  Mon Aug  3 12:58:21 2009
From: bliss at sfo.com (Bobbie Sellers)
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2009 12:58:21 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Meeting this morning Sunday 2 August 2009
In-Reply-To: <20090803193126.GC17725@sonic.net>
References: <4A760919.5020707@sfo.com> <20090803193126.GC17725@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <4A77415D.3000201@sfo.com>

Bill Kendrick wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 02, 2009 at 02:46:01PM -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>   
>>    Edward J. was there and has installed Linux on an Apple I
>>     
>
> *laughing*
>
> Sorry.  When I read that, I totally read it as this:
>
>   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_I
>
> -bill!
>
>   
    I guess I should have written Mac rather than Apple but I am
glad you got a laugh.

    later
    bliss



From tigakub at mac.com  Mon Aug  3 13:47:54 2009
From: tigakub at mac.com (Edward Janne)
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2009 13:47:54 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Meeting this morning Sunday 2 August 2009
In-Reply-To: <20090803193126.GC17725@sonic.net>
References: <4A760919.5020707@sfo.com> <20090803193126.GC17725@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <F09F35D3-682C-434D-B809-201FCCD4B5BB@mac.com>

Yes, it proved very difficult to find a mini distro on tape. :)

On Aug 3, 2009, at 12:31 PM, Bill Kendrick wrote:

> On Sun, Aug 02, 2009 at 02:46:01PM -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>>   Edward J. was there and has installed Linux on an Apple I
>
> *laughing*
>
> Sorry.  When I read that, I totally read it as this:
>
>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_I
>
> -bill!
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug




From einfeldt at gmail.com  Mon Aug  3 14:11:21 2009
From: einfeldt at gmail.com (Christian Einfeldt)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 17:11:21 -0400
Subject: [sf-lug] I am a Linux user in San Francisco interested in
	helping with SFLUG or independent Linux or hardware projects
In-Reply-To: <4A773E4D.2010108@gmail.com>
References: <4A773E4D.2010108@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4b5781040908031411h23f30b0dn6995c8ad2bf1ca00@mail.gmail.com>

hi,

On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 3:45 PM, user <sfkeys at gmail.com> wrote:

> I am visiting San Francisco for another week or two and have some time on
> my hands.  It would be fun to help out on some kind of  project and get my
> hands dirty,


We could use help with a project that involves moving two schools to Linux.
It involves running cables, admin work on standalone Linux machines, moving
Linux computers, and stuff like that.  We would be very glad for the help.

Thx!
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From jim at well.com  Mon Aug  3 19:50:10 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2009 19:50:10 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] I am a Linux user in San Francisco interested
	in	helping with SFLUG or independent Linux or hardware projects
In-Reply-To: <4A773E4D.2010108@gmail.com>
References: <4A773E4D.2010108@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1249354210.6860.342.camel@jim-laptop>



   lx_rudis at sbcglobal.net is honchoing the St. Anthony's 
volunteer effort. 
   jim at well.com and robert briley are just starting a 
red hat certification study effort. 
   christian einfeldt ( einfeldt at gmail.com ) is 
supporting the kipp school on geary at scott. 
   the hayes valley learning center on haight at 
buchanon is probably very low on desktop machines. i 
bet they would welcome someone who'd cannibalize their 
broken ones to make one or two more working ones. 
reply to the list if you're interested (that's 
YOU're, plural). 

   sf-lug meets at cafe enchante on the first sunday 
(from 11 am to 1 pm) and the third monday (from 6 pm 
to 8 pm) each month ( http://www.sf-lug.com or 
http://www.sf-lug.org ) 
   the OLPC-SF project meets once a month on a middle 
saturday in SF 
( http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC_SanFranciscoBayArea ). 
   if you don't know of it, investigate the noisebridge 
hacker collective 
( http://www.noisebridge.net ), based near mission 
and 16th street in sf. 
   eat chinese food, attend a presentation, and hang 
out with other linux afficianados in chinatown on the 
third tuesday of each month ( http://www.balug.org ). 




On Mon, 2009-08-03 at 12:45 -0700, user wrote:
> I am visiting San Francisco for another week or two and have some time 
> on my hands.  It would be fun to help out on some kind of  project and 

> get my hands dirty, whether it's just setting up an OS, or upgrading 
> hardware or networks, or a creative hack, making wifi antennas, or 
> what-have-you.  I am windoze free and I am currently running Debian, 
> Ubuntu, and Puppy for stable usage, and DSL, and Slitaz for live 
> booting.  I loved that hardware chart that one of your members made.  
> That's my desktop right now.  I've been using linux for about 5 years.  
> I have some intermediate command line usage, if that's needed on anything.
> I keep missing SFLUG meetings, but it would be cool to meet up if 
> someone if working on a project and needs a hand.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
> 




From embeddedlinuxguy at gmail.com  Mon Aug  3 21:51:30 2009
From: embeddedlinuxguy at gmail.com (Jesse Zbikowski)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 21:51:30 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Edward Janne's Final Questionnaire for Cultural
	Anthropology
In-Reply-To: <000e0cd47c6ea87ff60470185da3@google.com>
References: <000e0cd47c6ea87ff60470185da3@google.com>
Message-ID: <683785120908032151v32be957bhaa1a85c6b10c222@mail.gmail.com>

Hi guys,

I enjoyed the lively discussion engendered by this survey.  It truly
illustrates what a wonderous thing it is when entire nuanced
worldviews can be serialized, shared and understood through the linear
medium of the alphabet. *cough*

I just wanted to make a couple of points in defense of two of the main
voices.  First I think it would be a misunderstanding to think that Mr
Moen intended to belittle anyone or had any mean intent in his
remarks.  Programmers must be like philosophers in our passion to
clarify the formulation of questions and answers.  When we get
interested in a problem, it's best not to take any opinions expressed
about your ideas too personally.  That said, personal styles differ.

Second I think any criticism about the validity of Mr Janne's program
of research on this list, to the effect that he was asking questions
here out of laziness instead of finding the answers himself, is wide
of the mark.  Indeed Mr Janne made it clear that he was not interested
in the "real" answers to his questions in any absolute sense, but
merely in how some of us might respond.  Of course these responses
could be given privately rather than shared with the list, but it
appears many people were interested, and it's easy enough to killfile
boring threads (technical problems being generally more fun and easy
to solve than social ones).

PS: From Port Authority take the A or C train uptown to Columbus Circle.

http://www.carnegiehall.org/article/the_basics/art_directions.html

PPS: Another favorite joke: How far can a dog run into the woods?




^L



Only halfway - then he's running out!



On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 11:04 AM, <tigakub at mac.com> wrote:
> Dear SF-LUG list members,
>
> I'm an animation student at the Academy of Art University in San Francisco.
> As a part of my curriculum I'm taking a cultural anthropology class and I
> elected to study the San Francisco Linux Users Group for my final paper.
>
> The theme of the paper is how being a Linux User informs identity through
> ways of speaking, categories of people and things, and common likes or
> dislikes. My aim is to understand group identity from your point of view. I
> have tried my best to draft the questions to this end, but should you feel
> they are inadequate in any way, please feel free to say so in the response,
> and I welcome any suggestions as to how I might improve them. There are no
> wrong answers.
>
> There are eight questions, none of them mandatory. Some of you may have
> already answered a few on the mailing-list. If so please skip to the ones
> you have not, or feel free to elaborate.
>
> My paper is due at midnight, Wedesday 8/5/2009 but I will be fielding
> responses up till then.
>
> If you would like to receive a copy of my paper, please indicate so at the
> end of the questionnaire, and enter your e-mail in the space provided.
>
> Any data collected here is for the sole purpose of writing my paper and will
> not be used for any other. However, my paper will be graded, and will be
> archived at the Academy of Art University for possible perusal by faculty
> and students.
>
> Thank you all for your kind assistance and I look forward to reading your
> responses.
>
> Yours sincerely,
> Edward Janne
>
>
>
> Course information follows.
>
> Course Number: GS_603_OL5
> Course Title: Anthropology: Experiencing Culture
> Academy of Art University
> http://online.academyart.edu/
>
>
>
> I've invited you to fill out the form Edward Janne's Final Questionnaire for
> Cultural Anthropology. To fill it out, visit:
> http://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?formkey=dE40dGNrTU80aEdJeGFTVnFha3VGSHc6MA..
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>
>



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Mon Aug  3 23:02:36 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 23:02:36 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Edward Janne's Final Questionnaire for
	Cultural	Anthropology
In-Reply-To: <683785120908032151v32be957bhaa1a85c6b10c222@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000e0cd47c6ea87ff60470185da3@google.com>
	<683785120908032151v32be957bhaa1a85c6b10c222@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090804060236.GB22722@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Jesse Zbikowski (embeddedlinuxguy at gmail.com):

> I just wanted to make a couple of points in defense of two of the main
> voices.  First I think it would be a misunderstanding to think that Mr
> Moen intended to belittle anyone or had any mean intent in his
> remarks.

Indeed so.  Thank you.

The way one logically _might_ have expressed any mean, or at least
callous, intent would, in fact, have been to _ignore_ the survey.  I
assume everyone who attempted to engage with Edward's questions could
have, instead, spent the same amount of time elsewhere on matters more
immediately beneficial personally.  Respondents gave freely of their
time and effort because they gave a damn.

In the future, if anyone else is inclined to close such an initiative
out with the words "I now see that I was wrong and that you simply do
not want me here", rather than "thank you for your time and trouble",
then please let me know in advance:  I'll be glad to ignore your
project, saving your time and mine.


> Second I think any criticism about the validity of Mr Janne's program
> of research on this list, to the effect that he was asking questions
> here out of laziness instead of finding the answers himself, is wide
> of the mark.  Indeed Mr Janne made it clear that he was not interested
> in the "real" answers to his questions in any absolute sense, but
> merely in how some of us might respond.

I was well aware of that intention.  My point was that asking incredibly
vague, so-open-ended-as-to-resemble-a-Rorschach-test questions in a
technical context is quite annoying, especially when those rather
half-assed questions were riddled with inadvertant bogus fundamental
assumptions.  So, evidently, we were supposed to compose long
explanations, gently correcting his assumptions and explaining
everything to him.  

And for what?  To help him with his school homework, when all is said
and done.  

For someone studying cultural anthropology and visiting LUGs for that
purpose, Edward basically did nothing before dropping a bunch of
half-baked questions on SF-LUG.  I'd have hoped that such a person would
have at least skim-read "The Cathedral and the Bazaar", which is _the_ 
cultural-anthropological piece on the subject, but it's obvious Edward
didn't.  I'll also bet that he didn't crack open the Linux User Group
HOWTO, but I wouldn't have expected him to find that on his own.

(I mention the latter work in part because that's one of the places that
I've painstakingly attempted to address, among other things, some of the
_sorts_ of questions Edward was grinding out.)


Anyway, if Edward doesn't want fundamental assumptions of his homework
questions to be fair game for critical commentary, he shouldn't post
them to public mailing lists:  Continuing the point _you_ made, if he
doesn't want to see the resulting feedback, he's free to killfile it.




From rick at linuxmafia.com  Tue Aug  4 00:13:13 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 00:13:13 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Edward Janne's Final Questionnaire for
	Cultural	Anthropology
In-Reply-To: <683785120908032151v32be957bhaa1a85c6b10c222@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000e0cd47c6ea87ff60470185da3@google.com>
	<683785120908032151v32be957bhaa1a85c6b10c222@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090804071313.GE22722@linuxmafia.com>

Actually, Jesse, I thought I'd share with you one of the lesser but
illuminating sidelights to this discussion:  

Edward had blithely jumped from the ongoing public mailing list thread
quite a number of times -- never with any "Oh, by the way, in case you
hadn't noticed, just so you're not taken by surprise:  I've just dropped
the mailing list address from my distribution headers.  The reason I
suddenly need to hold a private side-conversation with you is [foo]."

Dropping without explanation into private mail from an ongoing thread
is mildly annoying and clueless, because it ignores why one was _in_
that public thread:  to participate in a community, for the public's
benefit -- not to donate free-of-charge private consulting to strangers
at their whims.  However, that sadly common misbehaviour is not my
point.

My point is what Edward (eventually) chose to say while chewing up my
time in one particular uninvited private side-conversation.  He started
by saying he'd been reading "How to Ask Questions the Smart Way" (the
essay I co-wrote with Eric Raymond), and so asked my permission to
"quote the book" for his paper, because he said he was "really just
looking for an explanation for your ...uhm ... style."

That cute very-slightly-concealed gratuitous attempt at an insult isn't
my point, either.

I ignored the bait, and said he _probably_ meant the _essay_ "How to Ask
Questions the Smart Way", which despite grievous verbosity is at least
not a book.  I gently pointed out that, if he seriously intended to
"quote _the essay_", i.e., the whole thing, then Eric's licence terms
_right in the essay_ should cover it, and that he maybe should read them
and see if they did.  (I didn't even dwell on the fact that they're
right near the top.)  I added that his quoting brief excerpts for
scholarship or review would need no permission:  That's fair use.

Edward's inability to tell an essay from a book, or bother to read a
licence right near the top, or distinguish quoting an essay from quoting
_from_ an essay, aren't my point, either.


I pointed out to Edward that he couldn't study my "...uhm ... style"
using that particular essay, because it's _co-authored_.  (By way of
example, I cited one aspect of the piece that's pure Eric and nothing
I'd ever say.)

My point is what he replied to that -- while he was busy chewing up my
time in an uninvited side-conversation:

   "Plausible deniability is wonderful to have."

Overall, I regret having tried to help the punk.




From tigakub at mac.com  Tue Aug  4 10:11:14 2009
From: tigakub at mac.com (Edward Janne)
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2009 10:11:14 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Edward Janne's Final Questionnaire for	Cultural
 Anthropology
In-Reply-To: <20090804071313.GE22722@linuxmafia.com>
References: <000e0cd47c6ea87ff60470185da3@google.com>
	<683785120908032151v32be957bhaa1a85c6b10c222@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090804071313.GE22722@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <9742D633-84D1-4141-A0A5-C4076BDEACED@mac.com>

On Aug 4, 2009, at 12:13 AM, Rick Moen wrote:

> "really just
> looking for an explanation for your ...uhm ... style."
>
> That cute very-slightly-concealed gratuitous attempt at an insult  
> isn't
> my point, either.

You've misunderstood me, Rick. I really didn't mean it as an insult.  
If it came across that way, I apologize. I really have to learn to  
phrase myself more carefully in writing.

> I pointed out to Edward that he couldn't study my "...uhm ... style"
> using that particular essay, because it's _co-authored_.  (By way of
> example, I cited one aspect of the piece that's pure Eric and nothing
> I'd ever say.)

In my defense, I did say that I hadn't read all of it because it was  
late and I was tired, and that I had passed out on the floor. I  
thought you appreciated that humor. At least your reply seemed to  
indicate so. You did the little ";->" thing at the end.

> My point is what he replied to that -- while he was busy chewing up my
> time in an uninvited side-conversation:
>
>   "Plausible deniability is wonderful to have."

It was in jest. It's very difficult to know when you're serious or  
not. I meant it in good nature.

> Overall, I regret having tried to help the punk.

I have said quite a lot of times that you've helped me tremendously.  
In fact, many people on the list have. I appreciate it. I have been  
looking through previous mailings at your suggestion, and I have been  
STFW for all kinds of things about Linux, and know quite a bit more  
about it than I did before because of that.

Also, thank you for pointing out to me that it's rude to go private  
without warning. I now realize that several of the other list members  
had gone private with me, but had very graciously prefaced their  
mails. This is mailing-list etiquette with which I am unfamiliar,  
having spent very little time using the medium. Thank you all for your  
indulgence for my faux pas.

-edj



From toya at linefeed.org  Tue Aug  4 14:10:36 2009
From: toya at linefeed.org (toya)
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2009 14:10:36 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] petition for the freedom to read
Message-ID: <4A78A3CC.7050503@linefeed.org>

http://www.defectivebydesign.org/amazon1984


  We believe in the freedom to read

We believe in a way of life based on the free exchange of ideas, in
which books have and will continue to play a central role. Devices like
Amazon's are trying to determine how people will interact with books,
but Amazon's use of DRM to control and monitor users and their books
constitutes a clear threat to the free exchange of ideas.

*That is why we readers, authors, publishers, and librarians demand that
Amazon remove all DRM, including any ability to control or access the
user's library, from the Kindle.*

Amazon's assurances that it will refrain from the worst abuses of this
power do not address the problem. Amazon should not have this power in
the first place. Until they give it up they will be tempted to use it,
or they could be forced to by governments or narrow private interests.
Whatever Amazon's reasons for imposing this control may be, they are not
as important as the public's freedom to use books without interference
or supervision.

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From embeddedlinuxguy at gmail.com  Tue Aug  4 14:33:35 2009
From: embeddedlinuxguy at gmail.com (Jesse Zbikowski)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 14:33:35 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Edward Janne's Final Questionnaire for Cultural
	Anthropology
In-Reply-To: <000e0cd47c6ea87ff60470185da3@google.com>
References: <000e0cd47c6ea87ff60470185da3@google.com>
Message-ID: <683785120908041433q25cf5fcfn1a9ebbe6ab401de7@mail.gmail.com>

Seemed like a slow news day so I thought I would share my answers to
the first half of the survey.  As a general thought about community
identities, I feel it's good to have several so as not to take any of
them too seriously.  For example I'm also proud member of the FGBG
(Fat Guy with Beard and Glasses) community with which the Linux
community has significant overlap.  We hang around and talk about our
favorite frozen dinners in the aisles at Ralph's.

1: What are the characteristics of a Linux user?

Linux users are generally technically adept and independent minded people.

2. Why did you first use Linux?

I ran Linux on my first PC because it was like the Unix systems we
used at school.  I've never regularly used a non Unix-like OS except
for my Commodore 64.

3. Are there different kinds or levels of Linux user? How would you
describe them?

Raw novices won't know how to use the command line and often have
their Linux partition as an experiment.  If they don't learn the
command line they generally quit, unless they need to use Linux for a
specific application on a specific machine (e.g. at work or school).
Of those who learn command line, the next level is customizing
configuration text files, followed by people who can script (e.g. in
Bash or Perl).  Above these levels are experts in particular aspects
of Linux such as administration or systems programming.

It would be interesting if people used more GUI system tools to
advance as a Linux user without the command line, but this does not
seem to be how it normally works.


4. What programs do you run on Linux? Does software that starts out
exclusively Linux often get ported to other platforms? What is the
motivation for this? Beyond being open source, is there functionality
that is unique to Linux?

I use Firefox, Bash, Emacs, mplayer, ffmpeg, GNU tools, Perl, wget,
and filesharing applications.

Ports of popular Linux software are fairly common.  In the case of
open source software, this may be because some of the developers
sometimes use a different operating system, or because there is a
commercial market for supporting the software on another OS (e.g. GNU
tools).

Useful Linux developments can be ported to other operating systems
fairly quickly, so there is something of a feature parity.  Linux is
perhaps unique in the extremely broad range of devices and
architectures it supports.  It may also be unique in the quality of
free support offered by its community, at least at the expert levels.
As a piece of engineering, Linux offers a balance of stability,
performance, configurability, security, extensibility, scalability,
and bleeding edge features that make it an optimal choice for a
variety applications.  If all the operating systems in the world were
to be destroyed by a giant fireball, and only one could be saved to
run on every processor from cell phones to supercomputers, I believe
that Linux would be the logical choice.



From jim at well.com  Sat Aug  8 11:51:59 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Sat, 08 Aug 2009 11:51:59 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [Fwd: [pygame-sf] PyGameSF meetup Wednesday August 12th
	6pm @ Main	San Francisco Public Library]
Message-ID: <1249757519.6693.59.camel@jim-laptop>


as seen on the pygame-sf mailing list: 

(PyGameSF meetup Wednesday August 12th 6pm 
@ Main San Francisco Public Library) 


Hi All,
The August PyGameSF meet up will be at the STONG conference room on
the first floor of the main San Francisco public library beside civic
center BART. The library closes at 8pm so we will reconvene to frjtz
on hayes street for dinner/drinks afterwords. This month's
presentations are:

    * Eric Bieschke and Casey Duncan: Xenotrader, a space trader MMO
for the iPhone. The presentation will include such weighty topics as:
Developing on Google App Engine,  using jQuery and WebKit to create an
interactive game,  composing game sprites using nothing but CSS, HTML,
masking tape and dental floss.

    * Andrew Turley, Harry Tormey: Who is it?, anatomy of a facebook
guessing game. This presentation will cover what it takes to build a
facebook game while maintaining a modicum of sanity using pylons  and
sqlalchemy.





From sfkeys at gmail.com  Wed Aug 12 09:37:38 2009
From: sfkeys at gmail.com (sfkeys at gmail.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 16:37:38 +0000
Subject: [sf-lug] Old computer for parts
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1249498802.2896.sf-lug@linuxmafia.com>
References: <mailman.1.1249498802.2896.sf-lug@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <621667398-1250094998-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1944981184-@bxe1106.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>


-----Original Message-----
From: sf-lug-request at linuxmafia.com

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 12:00:02 
To: <sf-lug at linuxmafia.com>
Subject: sf-lug Digest, Vol 43, Issue 6


Send sf-lug mailing list submissions to
	sf-lug at linuxmafia.com

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	sf-lug-request at linuxmafia.com

You can reach the person managing the list at
	sf-lug-owner at linuxmafia.com

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of sf-lug digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. petition for the freedom to read (toya)
   2. Re: Edward Janne's Final Questionnaire for Cultural
      Anthropology (Jesse Zbikowski)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2009 14:10:36 -0700
From: toya <toya at linefeed.org>
Subject: [sf-lug] petition for the freedom to read
To: sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
Message-ID: <4A78A3CC.7050503 at linefeed.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

http://www.defectivebydesign.org/amazon1984


  We believe in the freedom to read

We believe in a way of life based on the free exchange of ideas, in
which books have and will continue to play a central role. Devices like
Amazon's are trying to determine how people will interact with books,
but Amazon's use of DRM to control and monitor users and their books
constitutes a clear threat to the free exchange of ideas.

*That is why we readers, authors, publishers, and librarians demand that
Amazon remove all DRM, including any ability to control or access the
user's library, from the Kindle.*

Amazon's assurances that it will refrain from the worst abuses of this
power do not address the problem. Amazon should not have this power in
the first place. Until they give it up they will be tempted to use it,
or they could be forced to by governments or narrow private interests.
Whatever Amazon's reasons for imposing this control may be, they are not
as important as the public's freedom to use books without interference
or supervision.

-------------- next part --------------
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URL: <http://linuxmafia.com/pipermail/sf-lug/attachments/20090804/1bd68673/attachment.html>

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 14:33:35 -0700
From: Jesse Zbikowski <embeddedlinuxguy at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Edward Janne's Final Questionnaire for Cultural
	Anthropology
To: tigakub at mac.com
Cc: sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
Message-ID:
	<683785120908041433q25cf5fcfn1a9ebbe6ab401de7 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Seemed like a slow news day so I thought I would share my answers to
the first half of the survey.  As a general thought about community
identities, I feel it's good to have several so as not to take any of
them too seriously.  For example I'm also proud member of the FGBG
(Fat Guy with Beard and Glasses) community with which the Linux
community has significant overlap.  We hang around and talk about our
favorite frozen dinners in the aisles at Ralph's.

1: What are the characteristics of a Linux user?

Linux users are generally technically adept and independent minded people.

2. Why did you first use Linux?

I ran Linux on my first PC because it was like the Unix systems we
used at school.  I've never regularly used a non Unix-like OS except
for my Commodore 64.

3. Are there different kinds or levels of Linux user? How would you
describe them?

Raw novices won't know how to use the command line and often have
their Linux partition as an experiment.  If they don't learn the
command line they generally quit, unless they need to use Linux for a
specific application on a specific machine (e.g. at work or school).
Of those who learn command line, the next level is customizing
configuration text files, followed by people who can script (e.g. in
Bash or Perl).  Above these levels are experts in particular aspects
of Linux such as administration or systems programming.

It would be interesting if people used more GUI system tools to
advance as a Linux user without the command line, but this does not
seem to be how it normally works.


4. What programs do you run on Linux? Does software that starts out
exclusively Linux often get ported to other platforms? What is the
motivation for this? Beyond being open source, is there functionality
that is unique to Linux?

I use Firefox, Bash, Emacs, mplayer, ffmpeg, GNU tools, Perl, wget,
and filesharing applications.

Ports of popular Linux software are fairly common.  In the case of
open source software, this may be because some of the developers
sometimes use a different operating system, or because there is a
commercial market for supporting the software on another OS (e.g. GNU
tools).

Useful Linux developments can be ported to other operating systems
fairly quickly, so there is something of a feature parity.  Linux is
perhaps unique in the extremely broad range of devices and
architectures it supports.  It may also be unique in the quality of
free support offered by its community, at least at the expert levels.
As a piece of engineering, Linux offers a balance of stability,
performance, configurability, security, extensibility, scalability,
and bleeding edge features that make it an optimal choice for a
variety applications.  If all the operating systems in the world were
to be destroyed by a giant fireball, and only one could be saved to
run on every processor from cell phones to supercomputers, I believe
that Linux would be the logical choice.



------------------------------

_______________________________________________
sf-lug mailing list
sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug


End of sf-lug Digest, Vol 43, Issue 6
*************************************

From vpolitewebsiteguy at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 12 17:11:32 2009
From: vpolitewebsiteguy at yahoo.com (vincent polite)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 17:11:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sf-lug] Softphones, voip help
Message-ID: <7619.67951.qm@web82806.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hi,
I've become phone-less at this point in time. I've been thinking it would be nice to have something like MagicJack.  And thought this would be the time to do it. I would like to put the software/softphone on my laptop. Be able to use a headphone/headset, at home, or wherever I am. Have voicemail. And do it over the Internet. I guess this is possible, if kluge I together different services, and software? I'm not exactly sure how Google Voice works. You have to verify your number on a different phone, and a cell phone doesn't work. Oy Vey, what's a mother to do? Calgon, take me away!!!
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From dssstrkl at gmail.com  Wed Aug 12 17:36:51 2009
From: dssstrkl at gmail.com (Paul Ward)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 17:36:51 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Softphones, voip help
In-Reply-To: <7619.67951.qm@web82806.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <7619.67951.qm@web82806.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20158734-F7B1-4507-8BF5-1B59369FB8CE@gmail.com>

Actually, you can set up Google Voice with a cell phone. Problem is  
(at least for your case) is that GV routes through existing phones, so  
I don't think it will work as a pure voip solution.

Sent from my iPhone.

On Aug 12, 2009, at 5:11 PM, vincent polite  
<vpolitewebsiteguy at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Hi,
> I've become phone-less at this point in time. I've been thinking it  
> would be nice to have something like MagicJack.  And thought this  
> would be the time to do it. I would like to put the software/ 
> softphone on my laptop. Be able to use a headphone/headset, at home,  
> or wherever I am. Have voicemail. And do it over the Internet. I  
> guess this is possible, if kluge I together different services, and  
> software? I'm not exactly sure how Google Voice works. You have to  
> verify your number on a different phone, and a cell phone doesn't  
> work. Oy Vey, what's a mother to do? Calgon, take me away!!!
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
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From dennisharrison at gmail.com  Wed Aug 12 17:44:02 2009
From: dennisharrison at gmail.com (Dennis J Harrison Jr)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 19:44:02 -0500
Subject: [sf-lug] Softphones, voip help
In-Reply-To: <7619.67951.qm@web82806.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <7619.67951.qm@web82806.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <6e8b29e0908121744p50c1fba1obc97db63d9b4f8c4@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 7:11 PM, vincent
polite<vpolitewebsiteguy at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi,
> I've become phone-less at this point in time. I've been thinking it would be
> nice to have something like MagicJack.? And thought this would be the time
> to do it. I would like to put the software/softphone on my laptop. Be able
> to use a headphone/headset, at home, or wherever I am. Have voicemail. And
> do it over the Internet. I guess this is possible, if kluge I together
> different services, and software? I'm not exactly sure how Google Voice
> works. You have to verify your number on a different phone, and a cell phone
> doesn't work. Oy Vey, what's a mother to do? Calgon, take me away!!!
>
Cell phones have worked for google voice verification several times
for me.  Why do you think they don't?

I am working on a work-a-like to google voice that will use freeswitch
as the middle man between the ui and your sip provider (even if it is
another freeswitch/asterisk/etc box).

But, until I/someone else makes something usable like that (and
certainly after, as well), you have multitudes of options.  What are
your capabilities?  Are you up for running your own sip server?  Do
you have a specific budget in mind?  Are you worried about having
control over configuring a follow-me type situation?

I, personally, if starting from ground 0, get an account with whatever
sip provider gave me the right price and had good reviews (I use
voicepulse primarily because of a long history with them and they go
out of their way for their larger customers, but they do have their
own issues as well... like anyone will.)

You will need to understand the differences between a DID, a channel,
and a traditional 'line' package sold by a traditional voice provider.

Would run freeswitch on a server with available resources (freeswitch
> asterisk if you're going to run it on a vm for sure... especially if
you're new to voip config, as it is easier to learn the nuts and
bolts)

Once you have your 'home base' (so to speak) setup, then you have
every capability under the sun available to you.

Otherwise, you are pretty much going to have to configure a sip client
based on provider instructions.  Also, softphones are rather lacking
IMO.  The best I've used wrt to softphone was twinkle with a bluetooth
headset.  But I would much rather a hacked iphone with a sip client
over wireless.  Those things have to be getting cheaper these days
huh?

Point being in all of this, you have about a bajillion options.  What
will really narrow this down is budget and time available for
investment.  Then you further narrow things down by what features you
need/want.  And then you'll know what to install first :)

Hope this helps,
Dennis
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>
>



From aldenm at gmail.com  Wed Aug 12 17:45:08 2009
From: aldenm at gmail.com (Alden Meneses)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 17:45:08 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Softphones, voip help
In-Reply-To: <7619.67951.qm@web82806.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <7619.67951.qm@web82806.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <221610dc0908121745i46193665id6cd4f6be7c07096@mail.gmail.com>

Google Voice (GV)allows you to redirect calls to different phones
including cell phones. GV has voicemail and can send and receive and
can redirect SMS to any cell phone you like. With Skype you have to
pay to send SMS and won't allow you to receive unless you have a cell
phone and as far as I know doesn't redirect it. Skype you will need to
install a client but with GV all you need is a browser.

On 8/12/09, vincent polite <vpolitewebsiteguy at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi,
> I've become phone-less at this point in time. I've been thinking it would be
> nice to have something like MagicJack.  And thought this would be the time
> to do it. I would like to put the software/softphone on my laptop. Be able
> to use a headphone/headset, at home, or wherever I am. Have voicemail. And
> do it over the Internet. I guess this is possible, if kluge I together
> different services, and software? I'm not exactly sure how Google Voice
> works. You have to verify your number on a different phone, and a cell phone
> doesn't work. Oy Vey, what's a mother to do? Calgon, take me away!!!

-- 
Sent from my mobile device

Need a place to stay in So. Lake Tahoe, CA?
Visit www.heavenly5.com
(415) 702-0641 office
(415) 386-8230 fax



From jim at well.com  Wed Aug 12 22:20:00 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 22:20:00 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [JOB] Sr. PHP Developer, San Francisco | 100-125k
Message-ID: <1250140800.6755.4.camel@jim-laptop>



[JOB] Sr. PHP Developer, San Francisco | 100-125k 

Our downtown San Francisco client is one of the biggest social
networking technology companies around. More than 85,000 sites rely on
our clients technology to power their social networks, including the
world's most recognizable brands such as the BBC, HBO, U2, Madonna, NBA,
and NHL, and they are growing bigger by the day.

They want a full-time Senior PHP Developer with a deep understanding of
web technologies and experienced in building white-label web platforms.
If they can dream it, you should be able to build it. It's a fast-paced,
but rewarding opportunity that offers exposure to the some of the most
innovative social networking platforms in the world today, perfect for a
senior developer seeking new challenges, and looking to take your coding
and problem solving to the next level (while having fun in the process).

REQUIRED EXPERIENCE 

=> Current and rock-solid knowledge of PHP 5.x, deep understanding of
implementing secure, fast PHP applications for both page generation and
APIs 
=> Experience working with MySQL 5.x with special focus on SQL query
performance tuning, replications and data partitioning etc 
=> Solid working knowledge of the Linux operating system 
=> Ability to deliver quality code quickly from full specs, and work in
a dynamic, fast-moving environment 
=> Excellent analytical problem solving skills 
=> A portfolio or a list of URLs and a description on how you
contributed 
=> A wicked sense of humor 

DESIRED EXPERIENCE 

=> Familiarity with Facebook/OpenSocial/iPhone apps 
=> Past experience at a social networking product 
=> Clustering solutions that use commodity hardware and smart software
to keep sites up and running is a huge plus 
=> Being able to say the alphabet backwards while standing on one foot 

To be considered, please submit your resume along with your salary
requirements to beau-AT-open-source-staffing.com  

Thank you, 

Beau J. Gould 
Open Source Staffing 
www.open-source-staffing.com 
beau-AT-open-source-staffing.com 





From Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu  Thu Aug 13 06:09:34 2009
From: Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu (Michael Paoli)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 06:09:34 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] BALUG: Tu 2009-08-18 OpenHatch: Community tools for open
	source:	Asheesh Laroia, Raphael Krut-Landau and Karen Rustad;
	+ other news
Message-ID: <20090813060934.14573npojnhkh604@webmail.rawbw.com>

BALUG: Tu 2009-08-18 OpenHatch: Community tools for open source:  
Asheesh Laroia,  Raphael Krut-Landau and Karen Rustad; + other news

Bay Area Linux User Group (BALUG)
Tuesday 6:30 P.M. 2009-08-18

Please RSVP if you're planning to come (see further below).

For our 2009-08-18 BALUG meeting, we're excited to present:

OpenHatch is an online network for open source geeks.  The
fragmentation of Free Software means it's hard to know where you can
make a difference.  OpenHatch provides a profile engine so you can
showcase the contributions you've made and a cross-project bug search
engine to help you find issues targeted at your skills and passions.

OpenHatch is looking for feedback on their early alpha, enthusiastic
testers, and ideas about other community tools that can enrich the open
source experience.  The time will be split between a presentation and
Q&A from the audience.

Asheesh is the data seducer at OpenHatch.  He is a Debian Developer,
was a software engineer for Creative Commons, and put 288 inflatable
pink flamingos on his campus quad.  He has written testimony in an EFF
copyright case and volunteered for the World Food Programme in Uganda.

Asheesh will be joined by his two colleagues at OpenHatch, Raphael
Krut-Landau and Karen Rustad.  Karen served on the board of Students
for Free Culture for two years and has built viral media outreach
campaigns for Open Access advocacy group, SPARC.  Raphael is a Linux
enthusiast and web applications designer.

So, if you'd like to join us please RSVP:

          rsvp at balug.org

**Why RSVP??**

Well, don't worry we won't turn you away, but the RSVPs really help the
Four Seas Restaurant plan the meal and they help ensure that we'll be
able to eat upstairs in the private banquet room.

Meeting Details...

          6:30pm
          Tuesday, August 18th, 2009 2009-08-18

          Four Seas Restaurant http://www.fourseasr.com/
          731 Grant Ave.
          San Francisco, CA 94108
          Easy PARKING:
          Portsmouth Square Garage at 733 Kearny http://www.sfpsg.com/

Cost: The meetings are always free, but dinner is $13

After meeting meeting (?)
Presuming enough folks want to after the main meeting, those interested
may gather at a nearby venue (e.g. pub) for further discussion on, e.g.:
o BALUG steering committee (talk about what BALUG wants/needs to do and
    possible changes, etc.)
o stuff one can do to help BALUG
o ideas for possible future talks/presentations (got contacts/leads?)
o random Linux, etc. topics
o random networking
o discussion of topic(s) from/for meetings current, past, and future
o insert your topic here :-)

------------------------------

Additional upcoming BALUG meetings:

2009-09-15 Christian Einfeld on: Help yourself by helping the
             underdog... public schools. (Linux, Open Source, ...)

------------------------------

Missed the 2009-07-21 meeting on Regular Expressions?  Slides, etc. See:
http://lists.balug.org/pipermail/balug-talk-balug.org/2009-July/004456.html

------------------------------

Picn*x 18 - The Linux 18th Anniversary Picnic
This coming Saturday 2009-08-15
http://www.linuxpicnic.org/

------------------------------

Feedback on our publicity/announcements (e.g. contacts or lists where we
should get our information out that we're not presently reaching, or
things we should do differently): publicity-feedback at balug.org

http://www.balug.org/




From jim at well.com  Fri Aug 14 18:00:41 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 18:00:41 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] how to make a usb stick bootable
Message-ID: <1250298041.8052.12.camel@jim-laptop>


   we want to put linux on a usb stick. we want 
the usb stick to be bootable. 

   we used fdisk to put on these partitions: 
/dev/sdb1 bootable ext3 128MB 
/dev/sdb2 ext3 4GB 
/dev/sdb5 ext2 512MB 

   we've put no directory names on the partitions. 

# man grub-install 
says we can put grub on a device name and also 
use the --root-directory option to specify a 
directory in which we list grub images. 

   we want to have the / namespace on /dev/sdb2 
and we want the /dev/sdb1 partition to be mounted 
on the /boot mount point (specified in the root 
directory on the /dev/sdb2 partitioned. 

   we've successfully mounted the thing on /zzb1 
and /zzb2 and /zzb5 mount point directories on our 
working box. 

   we've not put any files on the usb stick, we've 
not used any installer to put any linux or other 
os on the usb stick. 





From vpolitewebsiteguy at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 14 18:14:21 2009
From: vpolitewebsiteguy at yahoo.com (vincent polite)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 18:14:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sf-lug] how to make a usb stick bootable
In-Reply-To: <1250298041.8052.12.camel@jim-laptop>
References: <1250298041.8052.12.camel@jim-laptop>
Message-ID: <739304.54146.qm@web82808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Here's a link to one site on how to do it. http://www.shivaranjan.com/2008/09/03/how-to-create-bootable-linux-usb-flashpen-drive-from-windows/ . If you google it, you'll find a ton of sites on how to do it.




________________________________
From: jim <jim at well.com>
To: sf-lug <sf-lug at linuxmafia.com>
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 6:00:41 PM
Subject: [sf-lug] how to make a usb stick bootable


   we want to put linux on a usb stick. we want 
the usb stick to be bootable. 

   we used fdisk to put on these partitions: 
/dev/sdb1 bootable ext3 128MB 
/dev/sdb2 ext3 4GB 
/dev/sdb5 ext2 512MB 

   we've put no directory names on the partitions. 

# man grub-install 
says we can put grub on a device name and also 
use the --root-directory option to specify a 
directory in which we list grub images. 

   we want to have the / namespace on /dev/sdb2 
and we want the /dev/sdb1 partition to be mounted 
on the /boot mount point (specified in the root 
directory on the /dev/sdb2 partitioned. 

   we've successfully mounted the thing on /zzb1 
and /zzb2 and /zzb5 mount point directories on our 
working box. 

   we've not put any files on the usb stick, we've 
not used any installer to put any linux or other 
os on the usb stick. 



_______________________________________________
sf-lug mailing list
sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
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From jim at well.com  Fri Aug 14 18:26:26 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 18:26:26 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] how to make a usb stick bootable
In-Reply-To: <739304.54146.qm@web82808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <1250298041.8052.12.camel@jim-laptop>
	<739304.54146.qm@web82808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1250299586.8052.33.camel@jim-laptop>


   thanks vince. i don't have any windows machines.
i've googled this and can't find anything that 
satisfies me: directions are often insufficient 
(some step omitted or something, maybe just not 
okay for my system); also the purpose is not to 
have a bootable stick, it's to learn how to make 
a bootable stick at a low level (not just use 
some program that does it, but use standard, 
available linux tools to 
* partition the usb stick 
* put an MBR on it 
* put grub on it 
* put the kernel and /etc/ /lib/ /usr/ and other 
directories on it. 
* have it boot up and work as we expect a linux 
distro to work. 
* whatever else i don't know to do the basics. 



On Fri, 2009-08-14 at 18:14 -0700, vincent polite wrote:
> Here's a link to one site on how to do it.
> http://www.shivaranjan.com/2008/09/03/how-to-create-bootable-linux-usb-flashpen-drive-from-windows/ . If you google it, you'll find a ton of sites on how to do it.
> 
> 
> 
> ______________________________________________________________________
> From: jim <jim at well.com>
> To: sf-lug <sf-lug at linuxmafia.com>
> Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 6:00:41 PM
> Subject: [sf-lug] how to make a usb stick bootable
> 
> 
>   we want to put linux on a usb stick. we want 
> the usb stick to be bootable. 
> 
>   we used fdisk to put on these partitions: 
> /dev/sdb1 bootable ext3 128MB 
> /dev/sdb2 ext3 4GB 
> /dev/sdb5 ext2 512MB 
> 
>   we've put no directory names on the partitions. 
> 
> # man grub-install 
> says we can put grub on a device name and also 
> use the --root-directory option to specify a 
> directory in which we list grub images. 
> 
>   we want to have the / namespace on /dev/sdb2 
> and we want the /dev/sdb1 partition to be mounted 
> on the /boot mount point (specified in the root 
> directory on the /dev/sdb2 partitioned. 
> 
>   we've successfully mounted the thing on /zzb1 
> and /zzb2 and /zzb5 mount point directories on our 
> working box. 
> 
>   we've not put any files on the usb stick, we've 
> not used any installer to put any linux or other 
> os on the usb stick. 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
> 




From vpolitewebsiteguy at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 14 18:36:42 2009
From: vpolitewebsiteguy at yahoo.com (vincent polite)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 18:36:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sf-lug] how to make a usb stick bootable
In-Reply-To: <1250299586.8052.33.camel@jim-laptop>
References: <1250298041.8052.12.camel@jim-laptop>
	<739304.54146.qm@web82808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<1250299586.8052.33.camel@jim-laptop>
Message-ID: <271994.28964.qm@web82804.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Oh, sorry. I thought that one was for Linux. Yeah, they always seem to miss a step along the way.




________________________________
From: jim <jim at well.com>
To: vincent polite <vpolitewebsiteguy at yahoo.com>
Cc: sf-lug <sf-lug at linuxmafia.com>
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 6:26:26 PM
Subject: Re: [sf-lug] how to make a usb stick bootable


   thanks vince. i don't have any windows machines.
i've googled this and can't find anything that 
satisfies me: directions are often insufficient 
(some step omitted or something, maybe just not 
okay for my system); also the purpose is not to 
have a bootable stick, it's to learn how to make 
a bootable stick at a low level (not just use 
some program that does it, but use standard, 
available linux tools to 
* partition the usb stick 
* put an MBR on it 
* put grub on it 
* put the kernel and /etc/ /lib/ /usr/ and other 
directories on it. 
* have it boot up and work as we expect a linux 
distro to work. 
* whatever else i don't know to do the basics. 



On Fri, 2009-08-14 at 18:14 -0700, vincent polite wrote:
> Here's a link to one site on how to do it.
> http://www.shivaranjan.com/2008/09/03/how-to-create-bootable-linux-usb-flashpen-drive-from-windows/ . If you google it, you'll find a ton of sites on how to do it.
> 
> 
> 
> ______________________________________________________________________
> From: jim <jim at well.com>
> To: sf-lug <sf-lug at linuxmafia.com>
> Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 6:00:41 PM
> Subject: [sf-lug] how to make a usb stick bootable
> 
> 
>   we want to put linux on a usb stick. we want 
> the usb stick to be bootable. 
> 
>   we used fdisk to put on these partitions: 
> /dev/sdb1 bootable ext3 128MB 
> /dev/sdb2 ext3 4GB 
> /dev/sdb5 ext2 512MB 
> 
>   we've put no directory names on the partitions. 
> 
> # man grub-install 
> says we can put grub on a device name and also 
> use the --root-directory option to specify a 
> directory in which we list grub images. 
> 
>   we want to have the / namespace on /dev/sdb2 
> and we want the /dev/sdb1 partition to be mounted 
> on the /boot mount point (specified in the root 
> directory on the /dev/sdb2 partitioned. 
> 
>   we've successfully mounted the thing on /zzb1 
> and /zzb2 and /zzb5 mount point directories on our 
> working box. 
> 
>   we've not put any files on the usb stick, we've 
> not used any installer to put any linux or other 
> os on the usb stick. 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
> 
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From bliss at sfo.com  Fri Aug 14 20:07:39 2009
From: bliss at sfo.com (Bobbie Sellers)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 20:07:39 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] DSL line dropping out...
Message-ID: <4A86267B.8000207@sfo.com>


    This started last night.
    I am able to connect only after resetting the DSL modem
and restarting the computer.
    After about  5 minutes the connection shuts down and I
have to repeat the Modem shutdown and the computer
restart.

    The following message is generator by the Network and
Internet configuration tool/
    Problems occured during the network connectivity test.

    This can be caused by invalid network configuration, or
    problems with your modem or router.

    You might want to relaunch the configuration to verify the
    connection settings.

    Does anyone have an idea besides buying a new DSL modem?




From a_kleider at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 14 20:19:14 2009
From: a_kleider at yahoo.com (Alex Kleider)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 20:19:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sf-lug] DSL line dropping out...
In-Reply-To: <4A86267B.8000207@sfo.com>
Message-ID: <143094.92117.qm@web110610.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

I suggest a call to your ISP support people. ..especially if they supplied the modem which seems to be the usual practice. They'll probably try to blame it on the phone company but may put in a service call request to try to solve the problem. 



--- On Fri, 8/14/09, Bobbie Sellers <bliss at sfo.com> wrote:

> From: Bobbie Sellers <bliss at sfo.com>
> Subject: [sf-lug] DSL line dropping out...
> To: taml at lists.worldnewstrust.com, "SF-LUG" <sf-lug at linuxmafia.com>
> Date: Friday, August 14, 2009, 8:07 PM
> 
> ???This started last night.
> ???I am able to connect only after resetting
> the DSL modem
> and restarting the computer.
> ???After about? 5 minutes the
> connection shuts down and I
> have to repeat the Modem shutdown and the computer
> restart.
> 
> ???The following message is generator by the
> Network and
> Internet configuration tool/
> ???Problems occured during the network
> connectivity test.
> 
> ???This can be caused by invalid network
> configuration, or
> ???problems with your modem or router.
> 
> ???You might want to relaunch the
> configuration to verify the
> ???connection settings.
> 
> ???Does anyone have an idea besides buying a
> new DSL modem?
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
> 


      



From andrewevansc at gmail.com  Fri Aug 14 21:00:17 2009
From: andrewevansc at gmail.com (Andrew E)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 21:00:17 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Thoughts on Google Maps vs OpenStreetMap and others...
Message-ID: <bd7bad4c0908142100g59780323r536db19cad653d30@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

I'm working on a mobile app on a LAMP stack. I was wondering what people's
opinions are on the various map choices out there. I've looked at (and am
using) Google Maps API to interface with, but I really like what Oakland
Crimespotting has done with OpenStreetMap (at
http://oakland.crimespotting.org/ ).

And I've heard OpenStreetMap guys on SF-LUG having parties, so that's cool.
Haven't heard of any Google Maps parties. Anyways, thoughts and pros and
cons would be very much appreciated.

Thanks!

Andrew
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From nbs at sonic.net  Sat Aug 15 08:50:23 2009
From: nbs at sonic.net (Bill Kendrick)
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2009 08:50:23 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Thoughts on Google Maps vs OpenStreetMap and others...
In-Reply-To: <bd7bad4c0908142100g59780323r536db19cad653d30@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bd7bad4c0908142100g59780323r536db19cad653d30@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090815155023.GE17583@sonic.net>


On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 09:00:17PM -0700, Andrew E wrote:
>    And I've heard OpenStreetMap guys on SF-LUG having parties, so that's
>    cool. Haven't heard of any Google Maps parties. Anyways, thoughts and pros
>    and cons would be very much appreciated.

Well, the 'parties' that OSM has are mapping parties.  Folks get together
with GPSes and head out and map the streets, parks, greenbelts, whatever.
Then upload the GPS data to OSM and tag it up.

I did that when Steve Coast came to Davis to run a mapping party, soon after
he moved to Calif., which was shortly after he came to LUGOD to talk about
OSM.  (See: presentation PDF here:
http://lugod.org/presentations/openstreetmap-opendata-10min.pdf )

I biked around with a GPS he loaned me and wandered, up and down, up and
down, up and down, various bits of greenbelt in the part of Davis I would
soon be moving to.  Then I went in and added it to the map.  (Much of Davis
streets was already covered by TIGER data they were able to import.)

Google doesn't have mapping parties because they (to the best of my
knowledge, _entirely_) get their map data by licensing it from big companies
that make maps.  (You usually see their copyright info at the bottom of
the Google Map widget on a webpage... and it differs depending on where
you are.)


Wow... rambling, sorry :)

-- 
-bill!
Sent from my computer



From tom at greenleaftech.net  Sat Aug 15 14:46:46 2009
From: tom at greenleaftech.net (Tom Haddon)
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2009 17:46:46 -0400
Subject: [sf-lug] [Fwd: Re:  how to make a usb stick bootable]
Message-ID: <1250372806.4166.57.camel@hurlyburly>

Sorry, forgot to hit reply all, so forwarding to the list in case anyone
else is interested.

-------- Forwarded Message --------
> From: Tom Haddon <tom at greenleaftech.net>
> To: jim <jim at well.com>
> Subject: Re: [sf-lug] how to make a usb stick bootable
> Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2009 17:45:43 -0400
> 
> On Fri, 2009-08-14 at 18:00 -0700, jim wrote:
> > we want to put linux on a usb stick. we want 
> > the usb stick to be bootable. 
> 
> Ubuntu 9.04 (Jaunty) has a "USB Startup Disk Creator" application in the
> "System -> Administration" menu. You tell it what ISO file you want to
> turn into a bootable USB disk, what USB disk to use, and it does the
> rest. Has worked for me quite well in creating bootable USB disks to
> test installs on my HP Mini 1000 (which doesn't have a CD/DVD drive).
> 
> Cheers, Tom
> 
> > 
> >    we used fdisk to put on these partitions: 
> > /dev/sdb1 bootable ext3 128MB 
> > /dev/sdb2 ext3 4GB 
> > /dev/sdb5 ext2 512MB 
> > 
> >    we've put no directory names on the partitions. 
> > 
> > # man grub-install 
> > says we can put grub on a device name and also 
> > use the --root-directory option to specify a 
> > directory in which we list grub images. 
> > 
> >    we want to have the / namespace on /dev/sdb2 
> > and we want the /dev/sdb1 partition to be mounted 
> > on the /boot mount point (specified in the root 
> > directory on the /dev/sdb2 partitioned. 
> > 
> >    we've successfully mounted the thing on /zzb1 
> > and /zzb2 and /zzb5 mount point directories on our 
> > working box. 
> > 
> >    we've not put any files on the usb stick, we've 
> > not used any installer to put any linux or other 
> > os on the usb stick. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > sf-lug mailing list
> > sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> > http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug




From david at sterryit.com  Sat Aug 15 15:52:13 2009
From: david at sterryit.com (David Sterry)
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2009 15:52:13 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [Fwd: Re:  how to make a usb stick bootable]
In-Reply-To: <1250372806.4166.57.camel@hurlyburly>
References: <1250372806.4166.57.camel@hurlyburly>
Message-ID: <4A873C1D.9000901@sterryit.com>

There is a tool called fUSBi that will optionally download an ISO of a
100% free gnu/linux distribution and put it on a usb stick at the same
time making the usb stick bootable. It's very simple to use and if you
already have the iso you can just point it to the file and the drive and
you're done. It's based on a tool called Unetbootin that does the same
for a wider array of gnu/linux distros.

http://aligunduz.org/FUSBi/

Tom Haddon wrote:
> Sorry, forgot to hit reply all, so forwarding to the list in case anyone
> else is interested.
>
> -------- Forwarded Message --------
>   
>> From: Tom Haddon <tom at greenleaftech.net>
>> To: jim <jim at well.com>
>> Subject: Re: [sf-lug] how to make a usb stick bootable
>> Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2009 17:45:43 -0400
>>
>> On Fri, 2009-08-14 at 18:00 -0700, jim wrote:
>>     
>>> we want to put linux on a usb stick. we want 
>>> the usb stick to be bootable. 
>>>       
>> Ubuntu 9.04 (Jaunty) has a "USB Startup Disk Creator" application in the
>> "System -> Administration" menu. You tell it what ISO file you want to
>> turn into a bootable USB disk, what USB disk to use, and it does the
>> rest. Has worked for me quite well in creating bootable USB disks to
>> test installs on my HP Mini 1000 (which doesn't have a CD/DVD drive).
>>
>> Cheers, Tom
>>
>>     
>>>    we used fdisk to put on these partitions: 
>>> /dev/sdb1 bootable ext3 128MB 
>>> /dev/sdb2 ext3 4GB 
>>> /dev/sdb5 ext2 512MB 
>>>
>>>    we've put no directory names on the partitions. 
>>>
>>> # man grub-install 
>>> says we can put grub on a device name and also 
>>> use the --root-directory option to specify a 
>>> directory in which we list grub images. 
>>>
>>>    we want to have the / namespace on /dev/sdb2 
>>> and we want the /dev/sdb1 partition to be mounted 
>>> on the /boot mount point (specified in the root 
>>> directory on the /dev/sdb2 partitioned. 
>>>
>>>    we've successfully mounted the thing on /zzb1 
>>> and /zzb2 and /zzb5 mount point directories on our 
>>> working box. 
>>>
>>>    we've not put any files on the usb stick, we've 
>>> not used any installer to put any linux or other 
>>> os on the usb stick. 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> sf-lug mailing list
>>> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
>>> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>>>       
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>
>   




From jim at well.com  Sun Aug 16 10:36:15 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2009 10:36:15 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] sf-lug meeting monday (20090817) at cafe enchante,
	geary at 26th, 6 pm to 8 pm
Message-ID: <1250444175.8052.197.camel@jim-laptop>


           SF-LUG meets this monday evening (20090817) from 
        6 pm to 8 pm (or so) in san francisco on geary blvd 
        at 26th avenue. 
           There'll be give-away books from No Starch Press 
        along with copies of the July Linux Pro Magazine, 
        featured article on device drivers. 
        
        
        




From bliss at sfo.com  Sun Aug 16 10:51:11 2009
From: bliss at sfo.com (Bobbie Sellers)
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2009 10:51:11 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] sf-lug meeting monday (20090817) at cafe enchante,
 geary at 26th, 6 pm to 8 pm
In-Reply-To: <1250444175.8052.197.camel@jim-laptop>
References: <1250444175.8052.197.camel@jim-laptop>
Message-ID: <4A88470F.1080804@sfo.com>

jim wrote:
>            SF-LUG meets this monday evening (20090817) from 
>         6 pm to 8 pm (or so) in san francisco on geary blvd 
>         at 26th avenue. 
>   
    That is in Caf? Enchant? formerly Caf? Euro.
>            There'll be give-away books from No Starch Press 
>         along with copies of the July Linux Pro Magazine, 
>         featured article on device drivers. 
>   

    Give-Aways!  No way?

    Free WiFi too and fancy coffee and tea drinks so bring the $.

    later
    Bobbie Sellers





From Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu  Mon Aug 17 07:29:09 2009
From: Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu (Michael Paoli)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2009 07:29:09 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] BALUG: REMINDER - TOMORROW!: Tu 2009-08-18 OpenHatch:
	Community	tools for open source: Asheesh Laroia, Raphael
	Krut-Landau and Karen	Rustad; next month ...
Message-ID: <20090817072909.85152nmiauodt7ok@webmail.rawbw.com>

BALUG: REMINDER - TOMORROW!: Tu 2009-08-18 OpenHatch: Community tools  
for open source: Asheesh Laroia,  Raphael Krut-Landau and Karen  
Rustad; next month ...

Bay Area Linux User Group (BALUG)
Tuesday 6:30 P.M. 2009-08-18

Please RSVP if you're planning to come (see further below).

For our 2009-08-18 BALUG meeting, we're excited to present:

OpenHatch is an online network for open source geeks.  The
fragmentation of Free Software means it's hard to know where you can
make a difference.  OpenHatch provides a profile engine so you can
showcase the contributions you've made and a cross-project bug search
engine to help you find issues targeted at your skills and passions.

OpenHatch is looking for feedback on their early alpha, enthusiastic
testers, and ideas about other community tools that can enrich the open
source experience.  The time will be split between a presentation and
Q&A from the audience.

Asheesh is the data seducer at OpenHatch.  He is a Debian Developer,
was a software engineer for Creative Commons, and put 288 inflatable
pink flamingos on his campus quad.  He has written testimony in an EFF
copyright case and volunteered for the World Food Programme in Uganda.

Asheesh will be joined by his two colleagues at OpenHatch, Raphael
Krut-Landau and Karen Rustad.  Karen served on the board of Students
for Free Culture for two years and has built viral media outreach
campaigns for Open Access advocacy group, SPARC.  Raphael is a Linux
enthusiast and web applications designer.

So, if you'd like to join us please RSVP:

          rsvp at balug.org

**Why RSVP??**

Well, don't worry we won't turn you away, but the RSVPs really help the
Four Seas Restaurant plan the meal and they help ensure that we'll be
able to eat upstairs in the private banquet room.

Meeting Details...

          6:30pm
          Tuesday, August 18th, 2009 2009-08-18

          Four Seas Restaurant http://www.fourseasr.com/
          731 Grant Ave.
          San Francisco, CA 94108
          Easy PARKING:
          Portsmouth Square Garage at 733 Kearny http://www.sfpsg.com/

Cost: The meetings are always free, but dinner is $13

After meeting meeting (?)
Presuming enough folks want to after the main meeting, those interested
may gather at a nearby venue (e.g. pub) for further discussion on, e.g.:
o BALUG steering committee (talk about what BALUG wants/needs to do and
    possible changes, etc.)
o stuff one can do to help BALUG
o ideas for possible future talks/presentations (got contacts/leads?)
o random Linux, etc. topics
o random networking
o discussion of topic(s) from/for meetings current, past, and future
o insert your topic here :-)

------------------------------

Next month's BALUG meeting:

2009-09-15 Christian Einfeld on: Help yourself by helping the
             underdog... public schools. (Linux, Open Source, ...)

------------------------------

Feedback on our publicity/announcements (e.g. contacts or lists where we
should get our information out that we're not presently reaching, or
things we should do differently): publicity-feedback at balug.org


http://www.balug.org/




From asheesh at asheesh.org  Mon Aug 17 14:46:34 2009
From: asheesh at asheesh.org (Asheesh Laroia)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2009 17:46:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [sf-lug] Asheesh @ SF-LUG tonight
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.0908171744470.22863@rose.makesad.us>

Dear San Francisco Linuxians,

I'm going to head to SF-LUG tonight at 6 PM. I'm visiting SF, and I'm 
looking forward to it!

If there's anyone I would normally see there who can't make it tonight, 
ping me off-list and we'll make some time.

Also, news! I'm finally a Debian Developer! And I'm moving to Philadelphia 
by the end of this month.

-- Asheesh.

-- 
O, what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive.
 		-- Sir Walter Scott, "Marmion"



From einfeldt at gmail.com  Mon Aug 17 17:33:10 2009
From: einfeldt at gmail.com (Christian Einfeldt)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2009 17:33:10 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Quiet server needed
Message-ID: <4b5781040908171733q44b7dd56y192efd98141852c@mail.gmail.com>

hi,

We seem to be having problems with one of the servers that we are using for
one of our school projects here in San Francisco.  We do have some noisy
servers, but we don't currently have access to a server closet in which to
house a noisy server.  Does anyone have a decent server that they could give
to our project?  A tower form factor would probably be best.  Thanks either
way!
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From grantbow at gmail.com  Mon Aug 17 20:04:19 2009
From: grantbow at gmail.com (Grant Bowman)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2009 20:04:19 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Windows XP Home refund - New Netbook purchase from Amazon
	. . .
Message-ID: <317e39f0908172004l622c39ecme758a838ab70d716@mail.gmail.com>

Forwarding to sf-lug with Brad's permission.

Grant


Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 14:51:54 -0700
From: mai wurd <maiwurd at gmail.com>
Subject: [BALUG-Talk] Windows XP Home refund - New Netbook purchase
? ? ? ?from ? ?Amazon . . .
To: balug-talk at lists.balug.org
Message-ID:
? ? ? ?<fb3a04160907271451o6343d0bbqafe011972b3d5da2 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"

Hello,



I bought a Netbook from Amazon.com. When I received it the OEM OS was
Windows XP Home. ?I did not accept the EULA and emailed Amazon informing
them of this and requesting a refund for the software; per the instruction
in the EULA. The first response was a request to return the Netbook . . .
(A DUH!) I emailed them with a direct reference to the EULA text that states
the refund is to be issued by the vendor that sold the computer to you.
Within an hour I received an email notifying ?me of the credit to my Visa
account for $75. ?YEA!!!!



? ?*Amazon.com Customer Service*

?to me

show details 10:52 AM (16 minutes ago)

[image: http://mail.google.com/mail/images/cleardot.gif]

Reply

[image: Follow up message]



Hello,

I'm sorry for the problem you had with this software and I regret the
manufacturer wasn't to be of much help.

I've requested a refund of $75.00 for the software Windows XP Home to your
Visa card. You'll see the credit in the next 2 to 3 business days.

Once the refund is complete, you'll see the refund at the bottom of the
order page: ?







I am running eeebuntu on the ASUS 1000HE and it is great. I added RAM (2GB)
turned off unused services and uninstalled all the software packages I don?t
use.

My Netbook is running lean and mean . . . battery life is excellent . . .
speed for all the task is much faster that Window 7 on my Acer Aspire laptop
(3GB ram) etc?



*WoooooHoooooo !!!!!!!!!!!*

*Brad*


--
Always think about positive affirmations before going to sleep. This spirit
guides our subconscious as we sleep and creates our reality.
Giving thanks, for that which has not happened yet, allows a spirit/life
pattern to manifest in our lives.



From rjdampho at gmail.com  Tue Aug 18 06:04:44 2009
From: rjdampho at gmail.com (Robert Damphousse)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 09:04:44 -0400
Subject: [sf-lug] Softphones, voip help
In-Reply-To: <221610dc0908121745i46193665id6cd4f6be7c07096@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7619.67951.qm@web82806.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<221610dc0908121745i46193665id6cd4f6be7c07096@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5b79b500908180604k579db263icad8d569c8d20f77@mail.gmail.com>

Take a look at Gizmo:
www.gizmo5.com

They are a SIP provider and I use their services for my office phone
number(s).  Their software client for the computer is not very good,
however.  I am setup to have my Gizmo SIP calls sent to a VOIP terminal
adapter on my office network.

-Robert
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From ewalstad at gmail.com  Tue Aug 18 13:29:34 2009
From: ewalstad at gmail.com (Eric Walstad)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 13:29:34 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Free-as-in-beer computers and parts
Message-ID: <c436fcd20908181329x7567790nf69f566265cfad88@mail.gmail.com>

As posted on craigslist[0]

I've got 7 10/100 nics, a pci USB2 card, misc 10/100 ethernet cables,
transformers, a DSL modem, DSL line filter, power cables, 4GB of ram:
4x512MB (laptop PC2700) and 2x1GB (desktop pc2-5300) modules...  Cruft
from years of system upgrades.

I also have a couple of fully-functioning-if-a-little-aged PC desktop
computers I'm happy to donate, too.

Eric
[0] http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/zip/1329965201.html



From pmpope at gmail.com  Wed Aug 19 12:45:31 2009
From: pmpope at gmail.com (pmpope)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 12:45:31 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Free-as-in-beer computers and parts (Eric Walstad)
Message-ID: <1250711131.18205.2.camel@EdgeLabs.gateway.2wire.net>

I would like to help you find a home for these parts. (Nudge, Nudge,
wink, wink like I need some parts) I am in SF [Union Square] Let me
know.

PMPope





From ewalstad at gmail.com  Wed Aug 19 13:00:17 2009
From: ewalstad at gmail.com (Eric Walstad)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 13:00:17 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Free-as-in-beer computers and parts (Eric Walstad)
In-Reply-To: <1250711131.18205.2.camel@EdgeLabs.gateway.2wire.net>
References: <1250711131.18205.2.camel@EdgeLabs.gateway.2wire.net>
Message-ID: <c436fcd20908191300s5fa654f4y975a3acb66feef80@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for the responses, everyone.  I think I have someone lined up
to take the gear.
Best regards,
Eric.

On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 12:45 PM, pmpope<pmpope at gmail.com> wrote:
> I would like to help you find a home for these parts. (Nudge, Nudge,
> wink, wink like I need some parts) I am in SF [Union Square] Let me
> know.
>
> PMPope



From bliss at sfo.com  Wed Aug 19 13:34:20 2009
From: bliss at sfo.com (Bobbie Sellers)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 13:34:20 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] woops I am back on a reliable connection.
Message-ID: <4A8C61CC.9060208@sfo.com>

    Got the new adsl modem this morning
    and 4 Gigabytes of sodimms.
    All in place and faster than ever.

    later
    bliss aka Bobbie Sellers



From bliss at sfo.com  Wed Aug 19 15:15:56 2009
From: bliss at sfo.com (Bobbie Sellers)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 15:15:56 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] woops I am back on a reliable connection.
In-Reply-To: <4A8C75FE.3050809@earthlink.net>
References: <4A8C61CC.9060208@sfo.com> <4A8C75FE.3050809@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4A8C799C.6080305@sfo.com>

Mikki McGee wrote:
> Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>>    Got the new adsl modem this morning
>>    and 4 Gigabytes of sodimms.
>>    All in place and faster than ever.
>>
>>    later
>>    bliss aka Bobbie Sellers
>>
> Hi;
>
>    You sound happy, so I am happy for you.  What are sodimms?  Are 
> they as salacious as they sound?

    Sodimms are memory modules for the laptop, Small Outline Dual
Integrated Memory Modules. While they do plug in to the female slots
only the system operator moans and sighs.

>
>    So I just got the shipping confirmation from Amazon on the Asus eee 
> 1000he, they will follow with the memory.  Actually this old slow 
> desktop is fast enough for me, but what do I know. All I want is a 
> little thing that will do ordinary things, in the library copying 
> books the information of which I need, some e-mail and on line searches.

    Whatever it takes if you can pull the cash or credit together.
>
>    Brad said his eeeUbuntu on the eee was faster than Unmentionable
 > 7.
	
	It is a safe bet that it is so.
	
> That  was the first I heard that there was a Unmentionable 7.  I preferred the 
> concept of unmentionable going down with the Vista, and getting 86'ed from 
> existence. But I am viciously vindictive. When that is done, and fully 
> paid for, I will try to get the HP wide screen re-screened, for about 
> $140.  That will be $120 or so for the screen, and $20 or more for 
> dinner for the fellow Bill says is good at this.  Then use the HP for 
> a desk machine and maybe giving presentations, the Asus for travel and 
> library, and the Desktop will be upgraded, Unmentionable finally off it, and 
> the latest lst Ubuntu given the whole thing (40g seem large at the 
> time?)   I can use it for for trying out BASH nonsense, and see if I 
> can like BASH.
>    They say to whisper to the gods what your plans are, and hear the 
> gods laugh.  But best not?

    Whether the gods are aware or not they will put their fingers in
your pot and spoil all your plans and flavors.

	I have corrected the mention of the Unmentionable OS from
Microsoft.  You know the one that millions of people MiSuse.

>
>
> Bless All
>
> Mikki
>

    Unmentionable Vista was supposed to be Unmentionable 7 but you
know Microsoft never makes one release when more will do just as 
poorly.
So they finished off some of  the more obvious bugs and Vista was 
reborn
as Unmentionable 7.
Doesn't mean much.


    later
    bliss




From bliss at sfo.com  Wed Aug 19 15:36:17 2009
From: bliss at sfo.com (Bobbie Sellers)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 15:36:17 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Available sodimms
Message-ID: <4A8C7E61.1020307@sfo.com>

    Hi again,
       Anyone need one or two, PC2 5300,
1 gigabyte SODIMMs?

    If so get in touch.


    later
    Bobbie aka bliss at sfo dot com.

   



From Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu  Wed Aug 19 17:18:52 2009
From: Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu (Michael Paoli)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 17:18:52 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] how to make a usb stick bootable
In-Reply-To: <mailman.291.1250306368.1647.sf-lug@linuxmafia.com>
References: <mailman.291.1250306368.1647.sf-lug@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <20090819171852.13263nrhrnx62iyo@webmail.rawbw.com>

May or may not be precisely what you want, but Debian's got some
excellent information on how to do this.  Just follow the documentation
trail.  Start by tracking down (pretty easy to find) the information on
how to install Debian - from various media ... from there quite easy to
find the information about how to install from USB ... and there they
don't give you an already prepared USB image, but tell you how to
easily make one (at least for x86 hardware - they may not cover that
for all supported architectures).  Once you dig into that, one quickly
finds the information on the "easy" way to do it, and also,
alternatively the more detailed "roll your own" (or however they term
it) - where one does it more manually, and more specifically customizes
how one constructs that USB image.  That should be more than enough to
get one started, and if the pieces of the process are reasonably
studied, one should get at least a pretty good understanding of most
everything involved ... and if one wants more details or any more
precise control with any of those steps, just dig into them deeper -
that's likely feasible in all cases (the tools themselves are pretty
straight-forward - it's mostly that and some configuration bits -
either copying such over, or manually configuring such).

references/excerpts:

> Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 18:00:41 -0700
> From: jim <jim at well.com>
> Subject: [sf-lug] how to make a usb stick bootable
> To: sf-lug <sf-lug at linuxmafia.com>
> Message-ID: <1250298041.8052.12.camel at jim-laptop>
> Content-Type: text/plain
>
>
>    we want to put linux on a usb stick. we want
> the usb stick to be bootable.
>
>    we used fdisk to put on these partitions:
> /dev/sdb1 bootable ext3 128MB
> /dev/sdb2 ext3 4GB
> /dev/sdb5 ext2 512MB
>
>    we've put no directory names on the partitions.
>
> # man grub-install
> says we can put grub on a device name and also
> use the --root-directory option to specify a
> directory in which we list grub images.
>
>    we want to have the / namespace on /dev/sdb2
> and we want the /dev/sdb1 partition to be mounted
> on the /boot mount point (specified in the root
> directory on the /dev/sdb2 partitioned.
>
>    we've successfully mounted the thing on /zzb1
> and /zzb2 and /zzb5 mount point directories on our
> working box.
>
>    we've not put any files on the usb stick, we've
> not used any installer to put any linux or other
> os on the usb stick.


> Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 18:26:26 -0700
> From: jim <jim at well.com>
> Subject: Re: [sf-lug] how to make a usb stick bootable
> To: vincent polite <vpolitewebsiteguy at yahoo.com>
> Cc: sf-lug <sf-lug at linuxmafia.com>
> Message-ID: <1250299586.8052.33.camel at jim-laptop>
> Content-Type: text/plain
>
>
>    thanks vince. i don't have any windows machines.
> i've googled this and can't find anything that
> satisfies me: directions are often insufficient
> (some step omitted or something, maybe just not
> okay for my system); also the purpose is not to
> have a bootable stick, it's to learn how to make
> a bootable stick at a low level (not just use
> some program that does it, but use standard,
> available linux tools to
> * partition the usb stick
> * put an MBR on it
> * put grub on it
> * put the kernel and /etc/ /lib/ /usr/ and other
> directories on it.
> * have it boot up and work as we expect a linux
> distro to work.
> * whatever else i don't know to do the basics.




From einfeldt at gmail.com  Wed Aug 19 19:52:24 2009
From: einfeldt at gmail.com (Christian Einfeldt)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 19:52:24 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Spare P4 machines?
Message-ID: <4b5781040908191952k57ae7f96w5a3349d9f4e6ad6b@mail.gmail.com>

hi,

Linux computers are proving popular at the two schools that we are
supporting.  If anyone has a couple of spare P4 or its AMD equivalent with
512 MB of RAM, we could sure use them.  Teachers are actually requesting
Linux machines because they have heard that they are free and that the
software updates are free.  They are having to discard Apple machines
because the software doesn't update for free (as in beer).  It's nice that
Linux is getting popular at these schools!

Thanks either way for considering my request.
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From Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu  Wed Aug 19 20:36:52 2009
From: Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu (Michael Paoli)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 20:36:52 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Linux user questionnaire [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE (sic)]
Message-ID: <20090819203652.18642wm519ffbwkk@webmail.rawbw.com>

> From: tigakub at mac.com (Edward Janne)
> Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 10:47:42 -0700
> Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE (sic)] What makes a true  
> Linux user
?

> Question 1: What makes a true Linux user?
Hmmmm, as opposed to what, an untrue user of Linux or a user of untrue
Linux?  Perhaps one was wondering about devotee, advocate, proponent,
evangelist, etc., and/or with some particular point of view espoused
and/or practiced, and whether or not or when that might be a "true Linux
user"?


> From: tigakub at mac.com (Edward Janne)
> Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 14:17:37 -0700
> Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE (sic)] How did you become  
> a Linux user?

> Question 2: How did you become a Linux user?
The short answer: by using Linux.
The longer answer:  Once upon a time I was exposed to UNIX.  Subsequent
to that, when I no longer had access to UNIX, and was exposed to or had
to work with other operating systems, my perspective was generally
along the lines of "this rather sucks, UNIX is so much better, and can
do so much more".  Time passes, and I get to work on UNIX (and various
ports thereof, e.g. XENIX).  Eventually time to purchase my own x86
hardware - I do, ... and for it, I choose a UNIX (XENIX at the time)
operating system - quite a bit more cost for the operating system at
the time (e.g. compared to Microsoft DOS 3.3), but well worth it in
terms of functionality and what I wanted to be able to do.  Time
passes, I keep getting nickel and dimed (more like $100.00 USD or more
at a pop) with UNIX (I'd since upgraded from XENIX to UNIX) for
upgrades, support, etc. - and though it was still pretty good (okay,
much better than), compared to, e.g. other "popular" x86 operating
systems of the day (e.g. Microsoft DOS/Windows), I was starting to get
rather annoyed at the "nickel and dimed" part (>=$100.00 USD a pop for
anything), and lack of source code, and sucky support.  E.g. I paid for
support, I'd find and report bug, but the responses I always got were
of the nature, "Thanks, we confirmed the bug, but we don't consider it
important enough to fix in the current release".  If I had the source I
could've fixed the bug myself - even contributed the patch back to the
vendor - but no source access was provided (source licenses were about
$10,000.00 USD in that timeframe - well outside what I could or would
spend) - and of course upgrading to the next release almost always
involved additional costs - and generally had no guarantees that they'd
have fixed the bugs I'd earlier reported.  Also, lots of "features"
were extra costs.  E.g. I had the development (and text processing)
systems which I'd purchased with XENIX ... when I upgraded to UNIX that
didn't include the development and text processing systems - if I
wanted to upgrade those too, that would be a few hundred more dollars
... each - so I painstakingly grafted the (binary compatible)
development and text processing systems onto/into my UNIX system (quite
a hack - basically worked, but had some limitations - e.g. no means to
use system calls present in UNIX that weren't present in XENIX - such
as anything related to symbolic links).  Along the way, I also got an
SMP motherboard (supported two CPUs) - want an SMP UNIX kernel - no
problem - just another $100.00 USD or more.  Want TCP/IP networking?
Sure, ... just add another $100.00 USD or more.  Want X11?  Sure, ...
just another $100.00 USD or more - oh, and we don't support your
hardware for X11 - you'll have to upgrade your graphics card and
monitor too.  In the meantime, Linux is continuing to advance
impressively, and I knew it was just a matter of time before I made the
jump.  So I researched - picked my distribution - Debian (and never
regretted that choice and it's still my distribution of choice), and
started working to get myself converted from UNIX to Debian (I had code
I wanted to port over, and other considerations, so it wasn't an
instant conversion).  On 1998-07-16 my conversion from UNIX to Debian
GNU/Linux was completed.  Of course among the many benefits of the
conversion:
freedom available in source: typically GPL or other OpenSource license
cost of source: $0.00
cost of core operating system: $0.00
cost of development system: $0.00
cost of text processing system: $0.00
cost of adding SMP support to kernel: $0.00
cost of TCP/IP networking: $0.00
cost of support: $0.00
quality of support: much better than what I'd been paying for
cost of operating system and related software upgrades: $0.00
cost of adding X11: $0.00
additional costs of adding all that to a 2nd or subsequent system: $0.00
X11 support: much better - (then) XFree86 supported (and now X.org
continues to support) my existing hardware - which couldn't have been
used for X11 with XENIX/UNIX.


> From: tigakub at mac.com (Edward Janne)
> Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 09:38:35 -0700
> Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE (sic)] Kinds of Linux user

> Question 3: Are there different kinds or levels of Linux user? How
> would you describe them?
Yes.  I suppose it depends how you want to slice and dice them.  E.g.
one could slice and dice by, oh, skill level(s), particular areas of
expertise, common/overlapping areas of interests/skills; views,
perspectives, and practices regarding Linux and Open Source; years of
experience, height, shoe size, ...


> From: tigakub at mac.com (Edward Janne)
> Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 10:42:20 -0700
> Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE (sic)] Linux applications

> Question 4: What programs do you run on Linux? Does software that
> starts out exclusively Linux often get ported to other platforms? What
> is the motivation for this? Beyond being open source, what
> functionality is unique to Linux?
Lots of programs, ... let's see - taking a look at what's presently
running, and stuff in my history, we have (many of these are local
utilities or aliases or shell built-ins; on my host vi executes nvi and
vip is another alias that also executes nvi):
-bash, -su, >, >>, apmd, atd, bash, boinc, cal, cardmgr, cat, cd,
chmod, clear, cp, cron, dbus-daemon-1, df, dhcpd3, dig, dingding,
dirmngr, do, done, echo, env, ex, exim4, expr, fc, fg, fgrep, file,
for, ftp, fvwm, gconfd-2, gdm, getty, gpg, gpg-agent, gpm, grep, gzip,
head, hostname, init, jobs, kaffe-bin, kdm, kdm_greet, klogd, less,
login, ls, man, md5sum, mdadm, mkdir, mv, named, netstat, noflushd,
ntpd, nvi, pcscd, perl, pgp-clean, ping, powertweakd, ps, pwd,
python2.3, rm, SCREEN, sendpage, sh, sleep, sleepd, sort, spell, ssh,
ssh-agent, sshd, su, syslogd, tcptraceroute, tf, touch, type, ud,
umask, unset, update-alternatives, vi, view, viewman, vim, vip, wc,
wget, whois, X, xclock, xconsole, xdm, xfs, xinetd, Xprt, xterm,
[bdflush], [kapmd], [keventd], [khubd], [kjournald], [kreiserfsd],
[ksoftirqd_CPU0], [kswapd], [kupdated], [mdrecoveryd], [scsi_eh_1],
[scsi_eh_2], [scsi_eh_3], [scsi_eh_4], [usb-storage-0],
[usb-storage-1], [usb-storage-2], [usb-storage-3]
I'm not going to attempt to enumerate "What programs do you run on
Linux", but the above should give an approximate sampling of what I'm
running currently or have run fairly recently (or aliases or scripts,
etc., which invoke other stuff).

"Does software that starts out exclusively Linux often get ported to
other platforms?"
The short answer: Yes.
The longer answer: "often" - definition typically "many times;
frequently", etc.; "software" - not qualified by "all" or most, etc., so
"any" would met the question criteria, so yes, if there exists any such
software that's often thus ported, the answer is logically yes.  And if
one hasn't yet noticed, us more technical folks (e.g. programmers,
systems administrators, etc.) will often take statements/questions quite
literally and logically.  As for "most" or "all"? ... probably "lots",
but not likely "most" (well, perhaps "most" to BSD and the like, but not
so much for Microsoft Windows and the like), and certainly not "all".

"What is the motivation for this?"
That varies a lot.  It's OpenSource - so if someone wanted, to, could,
and was motivated ... well, it tends to happen - most notably where it
reasonably makes sense - i.e. it "fits" (e.g. where other non-Linux
platforms make good targets - such as it's useful there, and reasonable
to port).

"Beyond being open source, what functionality is unique to Linux?"
Many things are (or were) unique to Linux.  Too many to enumerate.
Inspect the source code for specifics (and compare against other source
- or functionality where source isn't available), or research some
other higher-level summaries.  This also tends, to a large extent,
continue to be subject to change - e.g. since Linux is OpenSource -
much of it's functionality - if not code - may be adopted and used
elsewhere (e.g. BSD).

"Question 4" - that probably should have been "Questions 4" - as you did
manage to "sneak" 4 questions in there.


> From: tigakub at mac.com (Edward Janne)
> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 09:38:46 -0700
> Subject: [sf-lug] [LINUX USER QUESTIONAIRE (sic)] Linux growth

> Question 5: Is the Linux user base growing fast enough? What do the
> members of the group do to encourage adoption of the platform?
Fast enough ... for what or to what end?  Faster would probably be
generally better ... to a point, ... but really depends a lot on how,
and what's driving it.  Various folks do various stuff to encourage
adoption - e.g. random support like answering
questions(/questionnaires), assisting with installations,
troubleshooting, needs/requirements assessments, working to generally
increase awareness and understanding of Linux and OpenSource,
volunteering to be active in various Linux/OpenSource projects (code
contribution, documenting, community outreach, etc.), participating in
user groups, lists, conferences, etc., donating funds, equipment,
resources, employee's time, etc. to OpenSource projects, etc.

Also, might want to check your spelling before you and others
significantly replicate spelling error(s).  See also: spell(1).




From bill at wards.net  Thu Aug 20 12:00:05 2009
From: bill at wards.net (bill at wards.net)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 12:00:05 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] NEXT WEEK: PenLUG meeting 08/27/2009
Message-ID: <E1MeCrl-0001k7-Dp@mail.westernweb.com>

PENINSULA LINUX USERS' GROUP (PenLUG) PRESENTS:

   +------------------------------------------------------------------------+
   |Date:    |Thursday, August 27, 2009                                     |
   |---------+--------------------------------------------------------------|
   |Time:    |6:00 - 8:00 PM                                                |
   |---------+--------------------------------------------------------------|
   |         |Bayshore Technology Park                                      |
   |Location:|1300 Island Drive                                             |
   |         |Redwood City, CA 94065                                        |
   |         |Suite 106 - Training Room                                     |
   |---------+--------------------------------------------------------------|
   |RSVP:    |Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=130614156296  |
   |         |or mail rsvp at penlug.org                                       |
   +------------------------------------------------------------------------+

   Agenda:

     * 6:00 PM Free pizza arrives
     * 6:15 PM Free book giveaways or other prizes
     * 6:30 PM Presentation begins
     * 8:00 PM Meeting ends

  Introduction to Fedora, a look at Fedora 11 and what to expect in Fedora 12

   What is Fedora? What's new, improved and not-so-improved in Fedora 11?
   What can you expect in Fedora 12? Larry will answer these and other
   questions that have always nagged you (and even if they haven't nagged
   you) about Fedora.

  Larry Cafiero

   Larry Cafiero is the regional ambassador for the U.S. West Coast states
   for the Fedora Project. A newspaper editor by profession, he also is a
   partner in Redwood Digital Research in Felton, California, and is one of
   the founding organizers of the Lindependence Project.

RSVP

  Although it is not required, we like to have an idea of how many
  people to expect, so if possible please email rsvp at penlug.org if you
  are planning to attend.

GETTING THERE

  For information on getting to the meeting, please see:
      http://maps.google.com/maps?q=1300+Island+Drive,+Redwood+City,+CA
      http://www.penlug.org/twiki/bin/view/Home/DrivingDirectionsQualys
      http://www.penlug.org/twiki/bin/view/Home/TransitDirectionsQualys

  Traffic on 101 can be pretty bad in the evening, so we encourage you
  to check traffic conditions before driving by dialing 5-1-1 on your
  phone or visiting www.511.org, and if possible to take public transit
  (best bet: bicycle via Caltrain) or carpool to this meeting.

MORE INFORMATION

  See www.penlug.org for more information.


This notice is being sent to the following mailing lists:
	members at penlug.org
	announce at penlug.org
	sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
	balug-talk at lists.balug.org
	svlug at lists.svlug.org
	svevents at yahoogroups.com
	vox at lists.lugod.org

  Please reply to suggest any additions or other changes.



From rafa-el at att.net  Thu Aug 20 17:18:37 2009
From: rafa-el at att.net (Rafael Vanoni)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 17:18:37 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] SF OpenSolaris UG, August 24th meeting
Message-ID: <4A8DE7DD.60303@att.net>

Hi folks

I'd like to invite you to this month's meeting of the San Francisco 
OpenSolaris User Group (http://opensolaris.org/os/project/sfosug/), next 
Monday, 24th at 6pm. We'll have the following talks:

OpenSolaris and Power Management (Rafael Vanoni)
How SongBird is put together--for Dummies (Steve Lau)

~15 minutes each, lightning talk-style. We'll head to 21st Amendment
around 7pm, after the presentations, for drinks and food.

Location: Outspark, at 660 3rd St, 3rd floor.
Buses: 10 outbound to De Haro, 30, 45 and 47 inbound to CalTrain.

If you're interested, please rsvp at 
http://www.meetup.com/San-Francisco-OpenSolaris-User-Group/

Thanks,
Rafael



From sverma at sfsu.edu  Thu Aug 20 18:40:58 2009
From: sverma at sfsu.edu (Sameer Verma)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 18:40:58 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] OLPC-SF meets on Aug 22, 2009
Message-ID: <5fb387c70908201840j44266e7l9fec213c02eeaedd@mail.gmail.com>

OLPC-SF will meet this Saturday at 5th and Market, SF. Highlights?
Deployments in San Francisco and South Africa, USB-based healthcare
sensors for the XO, and ARM based Sheeva Plug and OpenRD to run
servers on... Details posted at
http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC_SanFranciscoBayArea

cheers,
Sameer
-- 
Dr. Sameer Verma, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of Information Systems
San Francisco State University
San Francisco CA 94132 USA
http://verma.sfsu.edu/
http://opensource.sfsu.edu/



From sverma at sfsu.edu  Thu Aug 20 21:02:50 2009
From: sverma at sfsu.edu (Sameer Verma)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 21:02:50 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] bonding 3G via bluetooth...
Message-ID: <5fb387c70908202102t17e85865ufe795e3b249a467b@mail.gmail.com>

Here's an idea I've been mulling over.

Scenario: Let's say, we have two Bluetooth-enabled 3G phones with "all
you can eat" contract. Let's say, I also have a DSL connection (eth0)
that runs into a home LAN management machine (Linux box to manage
traffic, etc.). What if I install two Bluetooth radios, and create a
bond (http://www.linuxfoundation.org/en/Net:Bonding) say, bond0 = eth0
+ bluepppd0 + bluepppd1 and whenever the machine detects one or both
3G phones, it sets up the pppd and bonds into it, thereby increasing
my aggregate bandwidth?

Has anyone tried this?

cheers,
Sameer



From dennisharrison at gmail.com  Fri Aug 21 08:46:33 2009
From: dennisharrison at gmail.com (Dennis J Harrison Jr)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 10:46:33 -0500
Subject: [sf-lug] bonding 3G via bluetooth...
In-Reply-To: <5fb387c70908202102t17e85865ufe795e3b249a467b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5fb387c70908202102t17e85865ufe795e3b249a467b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6e8b29e0908210846h73742e12x114b92c086273dfd@mail.gmail.com>

This sounds "Oh, so; FUN!".

WRT to all you can eat data - most plans are limited to ~5GB/mo (iirc)

I've done this with dsl connections before (back in the mid to late
90s I think).

Anywho; I have all the junk here to give it a go if you want to maybe
do a quick sprint on this to see how far we can get in an afternoon?

On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 11:02 PM, Sameer Verma<sverma at sfsu.edu> wrote:
> Here's an idea I've been mulling over.
>
> Scenario: Let's say, we have two Bluetooth-enabled 3G phones with "all
> you can eat" contract. Let's say, I also have a DSL connection (eth0)
> that runs into a home LAN management machine (Linux box to manage
> traffic, etc.). What if I install two Bluetooth radios, and create a
> bond (http://www.linuxfoundation.org/en/Net:Bonding) say, bond0 = eth0
> + bluepppd0 + bluepppd1 and whenever the machine detects one or both
> 3G phones, it sets up the pppd and bonds into it, thereby increasing
> my aggregate bandwidth?
>
> Has anyone tried this?
>
> cheers,
> Sameer
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>



From sverma at sfsu.edu  Fri Aug 21 09:37:07 2009
From: sverma at sfsu.edu (Sameer Verma)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 09:37:07 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] bonding 3G via bluetooth...
In-Reply-To: <6e8b29e0908210846h73742e12x114b92c086273dfd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5fb387c70908202102t17e85865ufe795e3b249a467b@mail.gmail.com>
	<6e8b29e0908210846h73742e12x114b92c086273dfd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5fb387c70908210937o598e7dafm80c5984065258ae4@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 8:46 AM, Dennis J Harrison
Jr<dennisharrison at gmail.com> wrote:
> This sounds "Oh, so; FUN!".
>
> WRT to all you can eat data - most plans are limited to ~5GB/mo (iirc)
>

If we are looking at two phones, 10GB a month is not that bad, really.
Note that one voids one's contract terms, I believe (tethering may not
be kosher as per the contract).

> I've done this with dsl connections before (back in the mid to late
> 90s I think).
>
> Anywho; I have all the junk here to give it a go if you want to maybe
> do a quick sprint on this to see how far we can get in an afternoon?
>

Excellent! Will ping you in a bit...slightly busy with a bunch of
things. Maybe we can make it a SF-LUG exercise ;-)

Sameer

> On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 11:02 PM, Sameer Verma<sverma at sfsu.edu> wrote:
>> Here's an idea I've been mulling over.
>>
>> Scenario: Let's say, we have two Bluetooth-enabled 3G phones with "all
>> you can eat" contract. Let's say, I also have a DSL connection (eth0)
>> that runs into a home LAN management machine (Linux box to manage
>> traffic, etc.). What if I install two Bluetooth radios, and create a
>> bond (http://www.linuxfoundation.org/en/Net:Bonding) say, bond0 = eth0
>> + bluepppd0 + bluepppd1 and whenever the machine detects one or both
>> 3G phones, it sets up the pppd and bonds into it, thereby increasing
>> my aggregate bandwidth?
>>
>> Has anyone tried this?
>>
>> cheers,
>> Sameer
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sf-lug mailing list
>> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
>> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>>



From jasonstone at gmail.com  Fri Aug 21 10:28:11 2009
From: jasonstone at gmail.com (jason stone)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 10:28:11 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] bonding 3G via bluetooth...
In-Reply-To: <5fb387c70908210937o598e7dafm80c5984065258ae4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5fb387c70908202102t17e85865ufe795e3b249a467b@mail.gmail.com>
	<6e8b29e0908210846h73742e12x114b92c086273dfd@mail.gmail.com>
	<5fb387c70908210937o598e7dafm80c5984065258ae4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f11525bb0908211028t7b313f0axc5a675a31bd44aa3@mail.gmail.com>

Can you do a Beowulf of them too?  (sorry for the 90s meme-- i was
getting nostalgic)

On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 9:37 AM, Sameer Verma<sverma at sfsu.edu> wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 8:46 AM, Dennis J Harrison
> Jr<dennisharrison at gmail.com> wrote:
>> This sounds "Oh, so; FUN!".
>>
>> WRT to all you can eat data - most plans are limited to ~5GB/mo (iirc)
>>
>
> If we are looking at two phones, 10GB a month is not that bad, really.
> Note that one voids one's contract terms, I believe (tethering may not
> be kosher as per the contract).
>
>> I've done this with dsl connections before (back in the mid to late
>> 90s I think).
>>
>> Anywho; I have all the junk here to give it a go if you want to maybe
>> do a quick sprint on this to see how far we can get in an afternoon?
>>
>
> Excellent! Will ping you in a bit...slightly busy with a bunch of
> things. Maybe we can make it a SF-LUG exercise ;-)
>
> Sameer
>
>> On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 11:02 PM, Sameer Verma<sverma at sfsu.edu> wrote:
>>> Here's an idea I've been mulling over.
>>>
>>> Scenario: Let's say, we have two Bluetooth-enabled 3G phones with "all
>>> you can eat" contract. Let's say, I also have a DSL connection (eth0)
>>> that runs into a home LAN management machine (Linux box to manage
>>> traffic, etc.). What if I install two Bluetooth radios, and create a
>>> bond (http://www.linuxfoundation.org/en/Net:Bonding) say, bond0 = eth0
>>> + bluepppd0 + bluepppd1 and whenever the machine detects one or both
>>> 3G phones, it sets up the pppd and bonds into it, thereby increasing
>>> my aggregate bandwidth?
>>>
>>> Has anyone tried this?
>>>
>>> cheers,
>>> Sameer
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> sf-lug mailing list
>>> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
>>> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>



From sverma at sfsu.edu  Fri Aug 21 11:05:17 2009
From: sverma at sfsu.edu (Sameer Verma)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 11:05:17 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] bonding 3G via bluetooth...
In-Reply-To: <f11525bb0908211028t7b313f0axc5a675a31bd44aa3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5fb387c70908202102t17e85865ufe795e3b249a467b@mail.gmail.com>
	<6e8b29e0908210846h73742e12x114b92c086273dfd@mail.gmail.com>
	<5fb387c70908210937o598e7dafm80c5984065258ae4@mail.gmail.com>
	<f11525bb0908211028t7b313f0axc5a675a31bd44aa3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5fb387c70908211105la1d3e64t74776c573cc1fc2@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 10:28 AM, jason stone<jasonstone at gmail.com> wrote:
> Can you do a Beowulf of them too? ?(sorry for the 90s meme-- i was
> getting nostalgic)
>

don't tempt me >8-)~

Sameer

> On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 9:37 AM, Sameer Verma<sverma at sfsu.edu> wrote:
>> On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 8:46 AM, Dennis J Harrison
>> Jr<dennisharrison at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> This sounds "Oh, so; FUN!".
>>>
>>> WRT to all you can eat data - most plans are limited to ~5GB/mo (iirc)
>>>
>>
>> If we are looking at two phones, 10GB a month is not that bad, really.
>> Note that one voids one's contract terms, I believe (tethering may not
>> be kosher as per the contract).
>>
>>> I've done this with dsl connections before (back in the mid to late
>>> 90s I think).
>>>
>>> Anywho; I have all the junk here to give it a go if you want to maybe
>>> do a quick sprint on this to see how far we can get in an afternoon?
>>>
>>
>> Excellent! Will ping you in a bit...slightly busy with a bunch of
>> things. Maybe we can make it a SF-LUG exercise ;-)
>>
>> Sameer
>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 11:02 PM, Sameer Verma<sverma at sfsu.edu> wrote:
>>>> Here's an idea I've been mulling over.
>>>>
>>>> Scenario: Let's say, we have two Bluetooth-enabled 3G phones with "all
>>>> you can eat" contract. Let's say, I also have a DSL connection (eth0)
>>>> that runs into a home LAN management machine (Linux box to manage
>>>> traffic, etc.). What if I install two Bluetooth radios, and create a
>>>> bond (http://www.linuxfoundation.org/en/Net:Bonding) say, bond0 = eth0
>>>> + bluepppd0 + bluepppd1 and whenever the machine detects one or both
>>>> 3G phones, it sets up the pppd and bonds into it, thereby increasing
>>>> my aggregate bandwidth?
>>>>
>>>> Has anyone tried this?
>>>>
>>>> cheers,
>>>> Sameer
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> sf-lug mailing list
>>>> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
>>>> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sf-lug mailing list
>> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
>> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>>
>



From dennisharrison at gmail.com  Fri Aug 21 15:13:05 2009
From: dennisharrison at gmail.com (Dennis J Harrison Jr)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 15:13:05 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] bonding 3G via bluetooth...
In-Reply-To: <5fb387c70908210937o598e7dafm80c5984065258ae4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5fb387c70908202102t17e85865ufe795e3b249a467b@mail.gmail.com>
	<6e8b29e0908210846h73742e12x114b92c086273dfd@mail.gmail.com>
	<5fb387c70908210937o598e7dafm80c5984065258ae4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6e8b29e0908211513m6179bc0dob7a7a325113d1750@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 9:37 AM, Sameer Verma<sverma at sfsu.edu> wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 8:46 AM, Dennis J Harrison
> Jr<dennisharrison at gmail.com> wrote:
>> This sounds "Oh, so; FUN!".
>>
>> WRT to all you can eat data - most plans are limited to ~5GB/mo (iirc)
>>
>
> If we are looking at two phones, 10GB a month is not that bad, really.
> Note that one voids one's contract terms, I believe (tethering may not
> be kosher as per the contract).
>
Well, I've been using the pre with tun and dhcpd as a router lately,
so while they don't encourage you to use it this way, I don't see
anyway they can make it against the eula and still give you evdo ppp
on there at all.

You're most likely correct, but ... let them figure it out on their own :)

>> I've done this with dsl connections before (back in the mid to late
>> 90s I think).
>>
>> Anywho; I have all the junk here to give it a go if you want to maybe
>> do a quick sprint on this to see how far we can get in an afternoon?
>>
>
> Excellent! Will ping you in a bit...slightly busy with a bunch of
> things. Maybe we can make it a SF-LUG exercise ;-)
>
Totally understood, would be a neat thing to document anyhow.
> Sameer
>
>> On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 11:02 PM, Sameer Verma<sverma at sfsu.edu> wrote:
>>> Here's an idea I've been mulling over.
>>>
>>> Scenario: Let's say, we have two Bluetooth-enabled 3G phones with "all
>>> you can eat" contract. Let's say, I also have a DSL connection (eth0)
>>> that runs into a home LAN management machine (Linux box to manage
>>> traffic, etc.). What if I install two Bluetooth radios, and create a
>>> bond (http://www.linuxfoundation.org/en/Net:Bonding) say, bond0 = eth0
>>> + bluepppd0 + bluepppd1 and whenever the machine detects one or both
>>> 3G phones, it sets up the pppd and bonds into it, thereby increasing
>>> my aggregate bandwidth?
>>>
>>> Has anyone tried this?
>>>
>>> cheers,
>>> Sameer
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> sf-lug mailing list
>>> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
>>> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>>>
>



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Fri Aug 21 15:31:35 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 15:31:35 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] bonding 3G via bluetooth...
In-Reply-To: <6e8b29e0908211513m6179bc0dob7a7a325113d1750@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5fb387c70908202102t17e85865ufe795e3b249a467b@mail.gmail.com>
	<6e8b29e0908210846h73742e12x114b92c086273dfd@mail.gmail.com>
	<5fb387c70908210937o598e7dafm80c5984065258ae4@mail.gmail.com>
	<6e8b29e0908211513m6179bc0dob7a7a325113d1750@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090821223134.GE22722@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Dennis J Harrison Jr (dennisharrison at gmail.com):

> Well, I've been using the pre with tun and dhcpd as a router lately,
> so while they don't encourage you to use it this way, I don't see
> anyway they can make it against the eula and still give you evdo ppp
> on there at all.

It's simple how they (meaning Sprint, in the case of Palm Pre in the
USA) _can_ do that.  They just specify in the data-plan contract that
your entitlement is device-specific.  The telcos want to bill for
tethered usage as a premium service, even if it makes no difference
whatsoever in your monthly data allotment.  Why?  Because they smell
money can and can get away with it.

(Of course, they may or may not be able to detect your doing it.)




From woodbrian77 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 21 16:44:17 2009
From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 18:44:17 -0500
Subject: [sf-lug] C++ Middleware Writer
In-Reply-To: <ddf6f4ca0908201838m3bf80eacg9131cefe9f07eda7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ddf6f4ca0908201424l527a33b1v9900ef8183160da3@mail.gmail.com>
	<ddf6f4ca0908201547v3503fa41o45ead5e6d54f3ef9@mail.gmail.com>
	<ddf6f4ca0908201838m3bf80eacg9131cefe9f07eda7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ddf6f4ca0908211644m7b86692eq332a74a3e03a5b4c@mail.gmail.com>

I'm writing to tell you about the C++ Middleware Writer.
It is an on line code generator that writes C++ marshalling
code based on user input.  It has a number of advantages
over the Boost Serialization library --
http://webEbenezer.net/comparison.html<http://webebenezer.net/comparison.html>
.

The C++ Middleware Writer has been a free service since it
went on line in 2003 and we have no intention of changing that.


Regards,
Brian Wood
Ebenezer Enterprises
www.webEbenezer.net <http://www.webebenezer.net/>

"Then Samuel took a rock and set it up between
Mizpah and Shen.  He named it Ebenezer [Rock of
Help] and said, 'Until now the L-RD has helped us.'"
-------------- next part --------------
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From jim at well.com  Tue Aug 25 09:53:12 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 09:53:12 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] BayPIGgies meeting Thursday August 27,
	2009: Intro to wxPython
Message-ID: <1251219192.6819.40.camel@jim-laptop>


BayPIGgies meeting Thursday August 27, 2009: Introduction to wxPython 

NOTE BayPIGgies meets at the Symantec Vcafe, 
at Symantec's location at 350 Ellis Street in Mountain View. 
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&fb=1&split=1&gl=us&ei=w6i_Sfr6MZmQsQOzlv0v&hl=en&t=h&msa=0&msid=116202735295394761637.00046550c09ff3d96bff1&ll=37.397693,-122.053707&spn=0.002902,0.004828&z=18

Tonight's talk is 
* Introduction to wxPython 
by Tony Cappollini 

Meetings start with a Newbie Nugget, a short discussion of an 
essential Python feature, specially for those new to Python. 
Tonight's Newbie Nugget: List Comprehension 


LOCATION 
Symantec Corporation
Symantec Vcafe
350 Ellis Street
Mountain View, CA 94043

BayPIGgies meeting information is available at 
http://baypiggies.net/new/plone



------------------------ Agenda ------------------------
 
..... 7:30 PM ...........................
General hubbub, inventory end-of-meeting announcements, 
any first-minute announcements. 


..... 7:35 PM to 7:35 PM ................

Newbie Nugget: List Comprehension 


..... 7:35 PM to 8:55 PM ................

Title: Introduction to wxPython 
by Tony Cappellini 

wxPython presents the wxWidgets open source cross-platform 
GUI library to Python programmers. Tonight's talk presents 
essential issues of using wxPython. 


..... 8:55 PM to 9:20 PM  ................
Mapping and Random Access

Mapping is a rapid-fire audience announcement of topics 
the announcers are interested in. 

Random Access follows immediately to allow follow up 
individually on the announcements and other topics of 
interest.





From jim at well.com  Wed Aug 26 17:30:55 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 17:30:55 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] BayPIGgies meeting Thursday August 27,
	2009: NEW: Managing	Software Developers
Message-ID: <1251333055.9073.17.camel@jim-laptop>


BayPIGgies meeting Thursday August 27, 2009: Managing Software
Developers 


There's a last minute change in the BayPIGgies meeting: Alex Martelli 
will present his thoughts on managing a software development team. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Martelli 


Title: Managing Software Developers 
by Alex Martelli 

Managing software development projects can benefit from some
approaches that are rather different from most traditional management
techniques. Software developers operate with their own particular
mindset, culture, and reward system. To motivate and inspire a top
programming team, one type of ideal manager is a technical peer who
can jump into the code and work hands-on, together with the
developers, to solve thorny problems. Such technical involvement can
keep a project moving forward and help the manager build credibility
and trust within the team.

In this talk, Alex Martelli discusses some common management myths,
and shares some immediately useful advice for anyone involved in
managing software development projects.


NOTE BayPIGgies meets at the Symantec Vcafe, 
at Symantec's location at 350 Ellis Street in Mountain View. 
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&fb=1&split=1&gl=us&ei=w6i_Sfr6MZmQsQOzlv0v&hl=en&t=h&msa=0&msid=116202735295394761637.00046550c09ff3d96bff1&ll=37.397693,-122.053707&spn=0.002902,0.004828&z=18


BayPIGgies meeting information is available at 
http://baypiggies.net/new/plone





From sverma at sfsu.edu  Wed Aug 26 17:34:58 2009
From: sverma at sfsu.edu (Sameer Verma)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 17:34:58 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] mastering CDs in bulk for Software Freedom Day
Message-ID: <5fb387c70908261734l476997bds658ae75ad08ad09a@mail.gmail.com>

Software Freedom Day is coming up fast. http://softwarefreedomday.org/

I was talking to Alex Kleider and Grant Bowman about it and we were
thinking of doing a mass CD duplication order for the Open Disc
(http://www.theopendisc.com/) or Open Education Disc for the event. We
(SFSU) have been doing open disc giveaways to students because bulk of
the users out there who need to understand FOSS are Windows users.
We've found that giving out Linux disks have a lower chance of use
compared to FOSS titles for Windows.

Would anyone in SF-LUG be interested in doing a bulk order? How about
other LUGs? (Please forward to other LUGs?) Orders over 1000 discs
tends to be cheaper (approx $0.30).

Sameer
-- 
Dr. Sameer Verma, Ph.D.
Associate Professor, Information Systems
Director, Center for Business Solutions
San Francisco State University
http://verma.sfsu.edu/
http://cbs.sfsu.edu/
http://is.sfsu.edu/



From einfeldt at gmail.com  Wed Aug 26 18:20:37 2009
From: einfeldt at gmail.com (Christian Einfeldt)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 18:20:37 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] job posting
Message-ID: <4b5781040908261820o5966d4e9x40a7c1550c2a84ec@mail.gmail.com>

hi,

This is a job posting for a great company, Zareason.  They sold hardware to
a school our group is supporting with FOSS, and the equipment was reasonably
priced and good quality, and, most important, dealing with Zareason is easy
to do.

################

Linux Hardware Builder

Small Linux shop on Hopkins in Berkeley needs a hardware builder for
flexible part-time employment.


 Qualifications:

   -

   Good manual dexterity.
   -

   Takes direction well, good memory.
   -

   Attention to detail, perfectionism encouraged.
   -

   Self-directed, good at managing time efficiently.
   -

   People skills not required.
   -

   Familiar with the Linux community.
   -

   Has a history of building desktops for fun.


 Part-time 4-6hrs/day, hours flexible. Starting pay is $15/hr with quarterly
increases based on performance.


 Interviews on Saturday 8/29/09. Please email support at zareason.com for an
appointment.


 Principals only. Recruiters, please don't contact this job poster.
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From rick at linuxmafia.com  Fri Aug 28 08:37:17 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 08:37:17 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] mastering CDs in bulk for Software Freedom Day
In-Reply-To: <5fb387c70908261734l476997bds658ae75ad08ad09a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5fb387c70908261734l476997bds658ae75ad08ad09a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090828153717.GY22722@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Sameer Verma (sverma at sfsu.edu):

> We've found that giving out Linux disks have a lower chance of use
> compared to FOSS titles for Windows.

So, you sugges spending money and effort helping people remain on
proprietary operating systems.  Personally, I wouldn't.  Helping the
Linux (or BSD) communities is much more rewarding and useful.

http://zgp.org/~dmarti/linuxmanship/#enabler




From jim at well.com  Fri Aug 28 09:21:51 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 09:21:51 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] mastering CDs in bulk for Software Freedom Day
In-Reply-To: <20090828153717.GY22722@linuxmafia.com>
References: <5fb387c70908261734l476997bds658ae75ad08ad09a@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090828153717.GY22722@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <1251476511.6637.18.camel@jim-laptop>


   this fits my tho'ts: make the FOSS platform 
community stronger and stronger, it's the 
communities that are the strongest force in 
the process of adoption. fewer percentage of 
linux disks used is still likely promotion of 
linux and FOSS. greater percentage of windows-
based FOSS programs used seems possibly not 
effective in promoting FOSS, as many may see 
their new software as new free stuff on the 
order of free detergent or cigarettes: no 
extra thinking. 



On Fri, 2009-08-28 at 08:37 -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> Quoting Sameer Verma (sverma at sfsu.edu):
> 
> > We've found that giving out Linux disks have a lower chance of use
> > compared to FOSS titles for Windows.
> 
> So, you sugges spending money and effort helping people remain on
> proprietary operating systems.  Personally, I wouldn't.  Helping the
> Linux (or BSD) communities is much more rewarding and useful.
> 
> http://zgp.org/~dmarti/linuxmanship/#enabler
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
> 




From einfeldt at gmail.com  Fri Aug 28 10:12:25 2009
From: einfeldt at gmail.com (Christian Einfeldt)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 10:12:25 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] mastering CDs in bulk for Software Freedom Day
In-Reply-To: <1251476511.6637.18.camel@jim-laptop>
References: <5fb387c70908261734l476997bds658ae75ad08ad09a@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090828153717.GY22722@linuxmafia.com>
	<1251476511.6637.18.camel@jim-laptop>
Message-ID: <4b5781040908281012s31415247i5cc52d1de946248e@mail.gmail.com>

hi,

On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 9:21 AM, jim <jim at well.com> wrote:

>
>   this fits my tho'ts: make the FOSS platform
> community stronger and stronger, it's the
> communities that are the strongest force in
> the process of adoption.


I tend to agree with both Rick Moen and Jim Stockford here. We all have
limited time, so I tend to focus on my end goal -- moving people to a Free
OS.

On the other hand, Sameer has a point, too.  I can't tell you how many
people at the schools we support with Linux who have used OOo or are using
OOo or firefox or audacity.  Each of these programs is a bridge from
Microsoft Windows to Linux.

Not everyone will be able to move immediately from Microsoft Windows to
Linux right now.  Using FOSS apps on Microsoft Windows minimizes the pain of
the transition to GNU-Linux _if_ the user eventually has the incentive to
migrate.

But that's a big "if".

And there are other problems with using FOSS apps on Microsoft Windows.  Any
failure or slowness in performance is blamed on the FOSS apps, not Microsoft
Windows.  And Rick also has a good point in that leaving the user on
Microsoft Windows with FOSS apps leaves them dependent on Microsoft Windows.

Here's my own practice.  I will mention the FOSS apps for Microsoft Windows,
but I won't spend any time supporting the user in using those FOSS apps if
they are working on a non-Free OS such as Microsoft Windows or Mac OS.

Instead, I will politely sympathize with them when the non-Free OS fails or
gets viruses (Windows) or when the OS gets old and crusty, but the user
can't afford to upgrade (Apple).  At that point, I will offer the user a
GNU-Linux machine "just temporarily until they are able to get their old
system up and running again."  This approach seems to be working with the
teachers that we are supporting at the KSFBA school and the CACS school here
in SF.
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From rick at linuxmafia.com  Fri Aug 28 11:09:56 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 11:09:56 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] mastering CDs in bulk for Software Freedom Day
In-Reply-To: <4b5781040908281012s31415247i5cc52d1de946248e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5fb387c70908261734l476997bds658ae75ad08ad09a@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090828153717.GY22722@linuxmafia.com>
	<1251476511.6637.18.camel@jim-laptop>
	<4b5781040908281012s31415247i5cc52d1de946248e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090828180955.GE18781@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Christian Einfeldt (einfeldt at gmail.com):

> Each of these programs is a bridge from Microsoft Windows to Linux.

[Not intending to be critical of Christian's stance, in jumping on the
above sentence in isolation from the rest of his post, which was well
taken.]

I've heard this "bridge" thing (or equivalent) alleged (about various
MS-Windows programs) for seventeen years:  I've kept track, and it's
proven to be mistaken for every one of those seventeen years.  All
you're doing if you advocate MS-Windows applications (regardless of
licensing) is to be an enabler.  Just say no.  ;->




From nbs at sonic.net  Fri Aug 28 11:47:10 2009
From: nbs at sonic.net (Bill Kendrick)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 11:47:10 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] mastering CDs in bulk for Software Freedom Day
In-Reply-To: <20090828180955.GE18781@linuxmafia.com>
References: <5fb387c70908261734l476997bds658ae75ad08ad09a@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090828153717.GY22722@linuxmafia.com>
	<1251476511.6637.18.camel@jim-laptop>
	<4b5781040908281012s31415247i5cc52d1de946248e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090828180955.GE18781@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <20090828184710.GA10418@sonic.net>

On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 11:09:56AM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> All you're doing if you advocate MS-Windows applications (regardless of
> licensing) is to be an enabler.  Just say no.  ;->

I, as the author of Tux Paint, cannot control the OS that kids' parents
force upon them.

OTOH, it probably helps that the app is Tux-penguin-themed.  Bahahaha. ;)

(And no, this was never the plan.  I didn't see Windows or Mac as target
platforms.  I made Tux Paint because there was a gap that needed filling
on Linux.)

-bill!



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Fri Aug 28 11:50:32 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 11:50:32 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] mastering CDs in bulk for Software Freedom Day
In-Reply-To: <20090828184710.GA10418@sonic.net>
References: <5fb387c70908261734l476997bds658ae75ad08ad09a@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090828153717.GY22722@linuxmafia.com>
	<1251476511.6637.18.camel@jim-laptop>
	<4b5781040908281012s31415247i5cc52d1de946248e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090828180955.GE18781@linuxmafia.com>
	<20090828184710.GA10418@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <20090828185032.GE22722@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Bill Kendrick (nbs at sonic.net):

> I, as the author of Tux Paint, cannot control the OS that kids' parents
> force upon them.

Nor would I dream of suggesting it, Bill.  Going out of one's way to
burn, distribution, and promote a bunch of MS-Windows application disks
-- and doing it as an activity of a Linux user group -- is (of course)
another thing entirely.

And thank you for Tux Paint, by the way! 

-- 
Cheers,      "Transported to a surreal landscape, a young girl kills the first
Rick Moen     woman she meets, and then teams up with three complete strangers
rick at linuxmafia.com       to kill again."  -- Rick Polito's That TV Guy column,
              describing the movie _The Wizard of Oz_



From david at sterryit.com  Fri Aug 28 13:41:14 2009
From: david at sterryit.com (david at sterryit.com)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 20:41:14 +0000
Subject: [sf-lug] mastering CDs in bulk for Software Freedom Day
Message-ID: <1246545427-1251492044-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-109951260-@bxe1008.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Let us not forget that this is software freedom day, not OS advocacy day. The quest for software freedom is a personal and difficult one and begins with the first exposure to a free software application like TuxPaint or Firefox. It ends with running a 100% free system like gNewSense or Kongoni. Anything that can move a user closer to software freedom is a win.
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Fri Aug 28 13:59:00 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 13:59:00 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] mastering CDs in bulk for Software Freedom Day
In-Reply-To: <1246545427-1251492044-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-109951260-@bxe1008.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <1246545427-1251492044-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-109951260-@bxe1008.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <20090828205900.GH22722@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting david at sterryit.com (david at sterryit.com):

> Let us not forget that this is software freedom day, not OS advocacy
> day.

Well, sure, but it'll also be (for example) International Talk Like a
Pirate Day -- and yet, I don't actualy _have_ to wear an eyepatch and go
around saying "Arrr!" every other sentence, unless I really think that's
worthwhile.

The question is:  Is helping MS-Windows users worth a significant amount
of money and effort for a Linux user group (or at least for members
thereof)?  For some, the answer will be yes.  I don't happen to be
among them, and find the arguments usually advanced by advocates to be
extremely bad.

(By the way, I am specifically _not_ an "OS advocate" of any sort,
an activity I find not only distasteful but also pointless when indulged
by Linux users.  For more, if interested, please see:
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/12/26/1040511127721.html )


> Anything that can move a user closer to software freedom is a win.

This particular bad argument does not improve with repetition:  It's
frankly pretty obvious why giving MS-Windows users additional excuses to
remain on that platform doesn't "move the user closer to software
freedom", and never has.




From sverma at sfsu.edu  Fri Aug 28 14:47:24 2009
From: sverma at sfsu.edu (Sameer Verma)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 14:47:24 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] mastering CDs in bulk for Software Freedom Day
In-Reply-To: <20090828205900.GH22722@linuxmafia.com>
References: <1246545427-1251492044-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-109951260-@bxe1008.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<20090828205900.GH22722@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <5fb387c70908281447pfce3de0gb67e4959b8959244@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 1:59 PM, Rick Moen<rick at linuxmafia.com> wrote:
> Quoting david at sterryit.com (david at sterryit.com):
>
>> Let us not forget that this is software freedom day, not OS advocacy
>> day.
>
> Well, sure, but it'll also be (for example) International Talk Like a
> Pirate Day -- and yet, I don't actualy _have_ to wear an eyepatch and go
> around saying "Arrr!" every other sentence, unless I really think that's
> worthwhile.
>
> The question is: ?Is helping MS-Windows users worth a significant amount
> of money and effort for a Linux user group (or at least for members
> thereof)? ?For some, the answer will be yes. ?I don't happen to be
> among them, and find the arguments usually advanced by advocates to be
> extremely bad.

I agree that principally, it makes more sense for a *Linux* user group
to hand out Linux CDs at an event such as this (BTW, does SF-LUG have
any plans for SFD?), and given that the event is *Software* Freedom
Day, and not *Linux* Freedom Day, prinicpally I would not discriminate
against the OS on which the Software (application) runs. IMO, it goes
against the spirit of some parts of the Open Source Definition.
http://www.opensource.org/docs/definition.php

I think its safe to say that if the LUGs plan on participating, we
(SF-LUG?) do a CD run of Linux (which distro?) and we (SFSU) will do a
run of OpenEducationDisc, which SFD actually ships to teams
anyway...we just don't get enough to give out.

> (By the way, I am specifically _not_ an "OS advocate" of any sort,
> an activity I find not only distasteful but also pointless when indulged
> by Linux users. ?For more, if interested, please see:
> http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/12/26/1040511127721.html )
>
>
>> Anything that can move a user closer to software freedom is a win.
>
> This particular bad argument does not improve with repetition: ?It's
> frankly pretty obvious why giving MS-Windows users additional excuses to
> remain on that platform doesn't "move the user closer to software
> freedom", and never has.

I actually have statistical evidence to the contrary (innovation
adoption of FOSS research), but I have 20 different things pulling me
20 different ways, so maybe I'll share another time.

cheers,
Sameer



From pmpope at gmail.com  Fri Aug 28 14:55:07 2009
From: pmpope at gmail.com (pmpope)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 14:55:07 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] ...Enabling M$
Message-ID: <1251496507.3739.27.camel@3dgelabs.gateway.2wire.net>

        All
        you're doing if you advocate MS-Windows applications (regardless of
        licensing) is to be an enabler.  Just say no.  ;->
        

Here! Here! I couldn't agree with you more, Rick, and not JUST because
I'm some poor Debian Fr3ak, no sir, this has everything to do with the
manner of enslavement tools the corporate overlords will use. MS
developers look down their noses at the LX community at large because
'we're not greedy enough' Maybe they can't tell... we're greedy for
freedom and we're willing to work for REAL freedom. 

I'm more of a freedom fighter than any glossy <insert job function here>
so I can't truthfully count myself among the illustrious ranks of of all
the six zeros developers but I am able to maintain LX OSes on scrap
metal architecture and that is why there is a cowboy on the O'Reilly
Linux Pocket Guide. That is also why I am, today, the same day Mac
releases their newest OS able to say most emphatically 'Happy Big Four
Oh UNIX! Where would we be without you?'

sincerely
PMPope
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From rick at linuxmafia.com  Fri Aug 28 15:17:51 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 15:17:51 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] mastering CDs in bulk for Software Freedom Day
In-Reply-To: <5fb387c70908281447pfce3de0gb67e4959b8959244@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1246545427-1251492044-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-109951260-@bxe1008.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<20090828205900.GH22722@linuxmafia.com>
	<5fb387c70908281447pfce3de0gb67e4959b8959244@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090828221751.GI18781@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Sameer Verma (sverma at sfsu.edu):

> I agree that principally, it makes more sense for a *Linux* user group
> to hand out Linux CDs at an event such as this (BTW, does SF-LUG have
> any plans for SFD?), and given that the event is *Software* Freedom
> Day, and not *Linux* Freedom Day, prinicpally I would not discriminate
> against the OS on which the Software (application) runs. IMO, it goes
> against the spirit of some parts of the Open Source Definition.
> http://www.opensource.org/docs/definition.php

*scratches head*

I'm minutely familiar with the Open Source Definition, having
participated in OSI's licence review process for many years.  And yet, I
cannot find any part of it, nor, as the USSC might say, "emanations and
penumbras", that in any way suggest that it's a good thing, let alone 
obligatory, to cut CDs of MS-Windows software at one's own expense in
time and money and hand them out.

I've only been reading the OSD carefully for about a decade, so I might
have missed something:  Does it contain some personal obligation to hand
out software for proprietary OS platforms, above and beyond the need for
OSD-compliant software to not be licensed specific to a product or to be
technology-specific?

(Er, no, it does not.)

And, again, the fact that Sept. 19 has been declared by some guys
running a Web site[0] to be *Software* Freedom Day doesn't make it
necessary for desirable for LUGs to hand out software for MS-Windows any
more than it being International Talk Like a Pirate Day makes it
necessary or desirable for them to adopt piratical attitudes.


> I think its safe to say that if the LUGs plan on participating, we
> (SF-LUG?) do a CD run of Linux (which distro?) and we (SFSU) will do a
> run of OpenEducationDisc, which SFD actually ships to teams
> anyway...we just don't get enough to give out.

Without particular objection (except what I've noted before, i.e., it's
no skin off my back if you toil on behalf of MS-Windows users), I note
that OpenEducationDisc appears to be (also) MS-Windows-specific, i.e., 
to consist only of MS-Windows programs.  Sadly, the related Web page
(http://www.theopendisc.com/education/) doesn't mention that fact.[1]
The linked FAQ page does clarify the matter:

  Q:  What are the requirements to run program XYZ?
  A:  You need to check the website of the program where it will give you
  exact specifications. Most of the programs on this disk need Windows XP
  or above and a computer bought within the last few years.


> > This particular bad argument does not improve with repetition: ?It's
> > frankly pretty obvious why giving MS-Windows users additional excuses to
> > remain on that platform doesn't "move the user closer to software
> > freedom", and never has.
> 
> I actually have statistical evidence to the contrary (innovation
> adoption of FOSS research), but I have 20 different things pulling me
> 20 different ways, so maybe I'll share another time.

Does your research indicate that handing out open source MS-Windows 
applications to users increases the likelihood of them deciding to 
run an open-source operating system, instead?  It doesn't seem, from
your brief description that it does, which would make your contention
somewhat non-sequitur to the point.

More to the point, the truly relevant question is whether the same
amount of money and effort applied to the actual Linux or BSD
communities has a greater or lesser benefit.  I think it's pretty
obvious that the benefit is greater.  Not that I have any business
criticising anyone else's decision to help MS-Windows users -- but
personally I would rather devote my free time elsewhere.  (I'd 
classify my, theoretically, doing it as "consulting". ;->  )


[0] Basically, consultant Matt Oquist, in conjunction with 
Phil Harper of the OpenDisk / OpenCD effort -- though they've got
several other folks aboard, in the several years since.

[1] An alert reader might also figure out that fact, from the main
page's citation of contents that are obviously Windows-specific, such as
Clamwin and WinSCP.




From rick at linuxmafia.com  Fri Aug 28 15:26:20 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 15:26:20 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] ...Enabling M$
In-Reply-To: <1251496507.3739.27.camel@3dgelabs.gateway.2wire.net>
References: <1251496507.3739.27.camel@3dgelabs.gateway.2wire.net>
Message-ID: <20090828222620.GJ18781@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting pmpope (pmpope at gmail.com):

> Here! Here! I couldn't agree with you more, Rick, and not JUST because
> I'm some poor Debian Fr3ak, no sir, this has everything to do with the
> manner of enslavement tools the corporate overlords will use. MS
> developers look down their noses at the LX community at large because
> 'we're not greedy enough' Maybe they can't tell... we're greedy for
> freedom and we're willing to work for REAL freedom. 

Er, well, I wouldn't personally paint it as an ideological cause.  (No
criticism implied, just a difference of perspective.)  For me, it's just
a matter of optimisation of effort.  Given a fixed number of hours of
free time per month, I can elect to spend some of my time (and money) 
helping MS-Windows users, or Linux users.

Helping Linux users helps repay the debt of gratitude I owe to people
who helped me.  It also helps deepen my own understanding of tools I 
have a great deal of use for, and that (unlike proprietary toolsets) 
are going to be permanently available and adaptable by anyone for any
purpose.  It's also orders of magnitude more interesting, more
professionally useful, and helps build and strengthen a community and
body of understanding that I care about, making people self-reliant and
willing/able to help others in their turn.

Helping MS-Windows users accomplishes none of that.  From my own
perspective, it's just time lost.  At _bare_ minimum, I'd expect to be
paid professional billing rates for that sort of time sink -- not have
to underwrite it.




From jim at well.com  Fri Aug 28 23:13:18 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 23:13:18 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] mastering CDs in bulk for Software Freedom Day
In-Reply-To: <5fb387c70908281447pfce3de0gb67e4959b8959244@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1246545427-1251492044-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-109951260-@bxe1008.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<20090828205900.GH22722@linuxmafia.com>
	<5fb387c70908281447pfce3de0gb67e4959b8959244@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1251526398.6637.98.camel@jim-laptop>

On Fri, 2009-08-28 at 14:47 -0700, Sameer Verma wrote:

> I agree that principally, it makes more sense for a *Linux* user group
> to hand out Linux CDs at an event such as this (BTW, does SF-LUG have
> any plans for SFD?)..., 

   errr..., no plans so far. it would be nice that 
we do so or help out some other group that's so doing. 
   for me, out at ocean beach with the corroded phone 
lines that are longer than spec specs, downloading 
files has been a pain, and big files as often as not 
are corrupt when finally downloaded. 

   i'm willing to run around and take disks from 
places to places, maybe like from someone with source 
to someone with duplicator. or ballyhoo the event or 
some such. 
   ask for help (for linux, not windows) and i'll try 
to help, and so with some others in the group 
(depending...). 







From jim at well.com  Sat Aug 29 08:21:10 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 08:21:10 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [Fwd: [vox] Linux Banner and Brochure]
Message-ID: <1251559270.6637.125.camel@jim-laptop>


BerkeleyLUG is preparing for a Linux/OSS booth at the September 13th
Solano Stroll.  As part of our preparations, we have designed a 100"x32"
Banner that we plan to print in vinyl and a brochure we additionally
plan to order color prints of (it also looks decent in black and white).
As this is a non-trivial investment of time/resources, we are hoping
that these items will be useful for other groups at other events in the
future (i.e. we hope the banner can be sent from group to group and used
at various places).  Thus, I'd like to make other local groups aware of
the banner, share the PDF/Source files and get some feedback.  We plan
to send these off to be printed in the next day or so; so, we are not
looking for major design changes at this point, but
corrections/suggestions to the content etc... 

The files are located at:

http://www.berkeleylug.com/Contributions/ 

Note that the brochure PDF is quite large (40MB) due to the uncompressed
print quality images contained in the pdf.  Note, these files are also
advertised on our projects page: http://www.berkeleylug.com/?page_id=2

I apologize if this is sent inappropriately to any lists - and ask that
people forward it to other lists they think would be interested.  

Cheers,

Jack Deslippe 





From sverma at sfsu.edu  Sun Aug 30 19:19:26 2009
From: sverma at sfsu.edu (Sameer Verma)
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 19:19:26 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] mastering CDs in bulk for Software Freedom Day
In-Reply-To: <20090828221751.GI18781@linuxmafia.com>
References: <1246545427-1251492044-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-109951260-@bxe1008.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<20090828205900.GH22722@linuxmafia.com>
	<5fb387c70908281447pfce3de0gb67e4959b8959244@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090828221751.GI18781@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <5fb387c70908301919j1a2aba34i2de3b720b9709168@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 3:17 PM, Rick Moen<rick at linuxmafia.com> wrote:
> Quoting Sameer Verma (sverma at sfsu.edu):
>
>> I agree that principally, it makes more sense for a *Linux* user group
>> to hand out Linux CDs at an event such as this (BTW, does SF-LUG have
>> any plans for SFD?), and given that the event is *Software* Freedom
>> Day, and not *Linux* Freedom Day, prinicpally I would not discriminate
>> against the OS on which the Software (application) runs. IMO, it goes
>> against the spirit of some parts of the Open Source Definition.
>> http://www.opensource.org/docs/definition.php
>
> *scratches head*
>
> I'm minutely familiar with the Open Source Definition, having
> participated in OSI's licence review process for many years. ?And yet, I
> cannot find any part of it, nor, as the USSC might say, "emanations and
> penumbras", that in any way suggest that it's a good thing, let alone
> obligatory, to cut CDs of MS-Windows software at one's own expense in
> time and money and hand them out.
>
> I've only been reading the OSD carefully for about a decade, so I might
> have missed something: ?Does it contain some personal obligation to hand
> out software for proprietary OS platforms, above and beyond the need for
> OSD-compliant software to not be licensed specific to a product or to be
> technology-specific?
>
> (Er, no, it does not.)
>
> And, again, the fact that Sept. 19 has been declared by some guys
> running a Web site[0] to be *Software* Freedom Day doesn't make it
> necessary for desirable for LUGs to hand out software for MS-Windows any
> more than it being International Talk Like a Pirate Day makes it
> necessary or desirable for them to adopt piratical attitudes.
>
>
>> I think its safe to say that if the LUGs plan on participating, we
>> (SF-LUG?) do a CD run of Linux (which distro?) and we (SFSU) will do a
>> run of OpenEducationDisc, which SFD actually ships to teams
>> anyway...we just don't get enough to give out.
>
> Without particular objection (except what I've noted before, i.e., it's
> no skin off my back if you toil on behalf of MS-Windows users), I note
> that OpenEducationDisc appears to be (also) MS-Windows-specific, i.e.,
> to consist only of MS-Windows programs. ?Sadly, the related Web page
> (http://www.theopendisc.com/education/) doesn't mention that fact.[1]
> The linked FAQ page does clarify the matter:
>
> ?Q: ?What are the requirements to run program XYZ?
> ?A: ?You need to check the website of the program where it will give you
> ?exact specifications. Most of the programs on this disk need Windows XP
> ?or above and a computer bought within the last few years.
>
>
>> > This particular bad argument does not improve with repetition: ?It's
>> > frankly pretty obvious why giving MS-Windows users additional excuses to
>> > remain on that platform doesn't "move the user closer to software
>> > freedom", and never has.
>>
>> I actually have statistical evidence to the contrary (innovation
>> adoption of FOSS research), but I have 20 different things pulling me
>> 20 different ways, so maybe I'll share another time.
>
> Does your research indicate that handing out open source MS-Windows
> applications to users increases the likelihood of them deciding to
> run an open-source operating system, instead? ?It doesn't seem, from
> your brief description that it does, which would make your contention
> somewhat non-sequitur to the point.
>
> More to the point, the truly relevant question is whether the same
> amount of money and effort applied to the actual Linux or BSD
> communities has a greater or lesser benefit. ?I think it's pretty
> obvious that the benefit is greater. ?Not that I have any business
> criticising anyone else's decision to help MS-Windows users -- but
> personally I would rather devote my free time elsewhere. ?(I'd
> classify my, theoretically, doing it as "consulting". ;-> ?)
>
>
> [0] Basically, consultant Matt Oquist, in conjunction with
> Phil Harper of the OpenDisk / OpenCD effort -- though they've got
> several other folks aboard, in the several years since.
>
> [1] An alert reader might also figure out that fact, from the main
> page's citation of contents that are obviously Windows-specific, such as
> Clamwin and WinSCP.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>

This is a somewhat long answer, but it addresses a few different parts
to the problem at hand.

Diffusion and adoption of an innovation (FOSS as an innovation) has
been studied for around 50 years and has a well established record
across various fields such as agriculture, healthcare, technology,
etc. In the realm of technology, some of the topics that have been
studied are: facsimile, Internet, E-mail, E-commerce, WWW, streaming
video (my dissertation's proposal document is still up at
http://verma.sfsu.edu/profile/phd.proposal.pdf) and of course, FOSS.
Here's a link to one of my papers:
http://aisel.aisnet.org/amcis2005/429/

Most of the work done in this area leads back to Everrett Rogers
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everett_Rogers) and Frank Bass
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Bass). There are two stages to
this process: diffusion, and adoption. Diffusion is when the knowledge
about the innovation spreads via various channels (usually
word-of-mouth and mass media, propagated by the network effect as
well) which eventually leads to adoption (or rejection). Adoption
implies significant acceptance and use. The S-curve that represents
stages of adoption are broken into:

* innovators
* early adopters
* early majority
* late majority and
* laggards.

I would estimate that people like Rick Moen (and others of his
profile) would be in the innovators category, and bulk of the mailing
list would fall under early adopters and maybe spill over to early
majority. Populations to be addressed by events such as Software
Freedom Day are the early majority going through the persuasion stage.
We still haven't seen the late majority and laggards yet. Note that to
be a laggard, one has to acknowledge that the innovation exists in the
first place. The population at large is largely oblivious to FOSS. See
more at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_innovation

Once diffusion happens effectively, the decision to adopt gets
influenced by various attributes. This is where a radical concept
takes hold. The decision to adopt is very strongly influenced by
*perception*. The *perceived* attributes play a stronger role than the
*real* attributes. For instance, it does not matter how good the
technical merits of Compiz or Beryl may be, the decision to adopt (by
the population at large) will be influenced more by a Youtube video of
a spinning desktop cube! This is the same reason that posters of
cowboys on horses sell more cigarettes and scantily clad women
standing next to hotrods sell more hotrod magazines. I am sure you can
think of oodles of advertisements that have characters that have
nothing to do with the real attribute of that product or service.
Perception is key. Swallow that pill, and you'll be good at marketing
to the masses. Hey, don't balme me. I don't make the rules!

Some of the key perceived attributes are:

Relative advantages. Sample question: "What relative advantage would I
get when I use OpenOffice over Microsoft Office?" Answer: "Well, you
could print PDFs directly from all the office apps without installing
Adobe Acrobat!". At this point, waxing poetic about the FOSS merits of
OOo, availability of source code, etc. wouldn't help much with
adoption.

Compatibility (with current work environment). Sample question: "Can I
open Microsoft Word files? How about Excel?" Answer: "Yes, not only
can you open files, you can save the files back into their original
format of doc or xls." At this point, explaining the ODF vs OOXML
debate and why they should save only in the ODF format wouldn't help
the cause.

Complexity. Sample question: "How hard is it to use OpenOffice?"
Answer: "Oh, its quite easy. Its very much like Microsoft Office. Very
easy to install. If you don't like it, all you have to do is uninstall
it. Here's a CD. Hope you like it". Handing a CD is one step closer
than handing out a download URL.

Observability (observing someone use FOSS in the field for everyday
work). Sample question: "Wow, how did you print that PDF? Do you have
Adobe Acrobat?" Answer: "No, its built-in as a feature in OpenOffice."
Observability goes a long way in helping with adoption. I use Ubuntu
on my Thinkpad X300, and while the laptop does a terrific job of
suspend/resume, I make sure I plug into a VGA projector in class and
reboot the machine so that students get to see the bootup sequence and
watch the Ubuntu/GDM login screen for a minute or two. They also see
me use OOo, Firefox, GNOME, etc. in every class. Does it work? You bet
it does. Approximately 20% of my students come by my office asking
about OOo or PDFCreator, Ubuntu.

There are a few other attributes like trialability, volntariness,
image, etc. but you can read about it at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_innovation

So, as per diffusion and adoption research, to push people in the
knowledge and/or persuasion stage to adopt FOSS, its very important
that we address not just the relative advantages of FOSS over what
they already use, but to address the compatibility with existing
systems (which in all likelihood will be a Windows environment).
Excluding Windows users defeats the purpose. After all, we don't need
to persuade a Rick Moen or a Christian Einfeldt or even a Alex Kleider
(much more recent adopter)! In fact, if I remember correctly,
Christian was a Windows user, when one of his friends introduced him
to FOSS. Many people also do not have the option to install a new OS
on their work machine, even though they can install apps. Why should
we exclude them? Many people use Windows because of a favorite game or
application they need for work. Why exclude them? I personally dual
booted between XP and Redhat/SuSE/Lycoris/Debian/Ubuntu for five years
in my work environment. I still have Windows XP in a VM on my laptop
because sometimes I have no choice but to use Windows at work. I am
thankful to those who helped me along the way to make a complete
switch. Except for the Windows XP VM, I have *nothing* that runs a
proprietary OS. Even my car music system runs on Linux!
(http://www.phatnoise.com/)

My other point about the spirit (not just the letter) of the Open
Source definition (http://www.opensource.org/docs/definition.php) was
that items 5, 6, 8, 9 and 10 convey a sense of non-discrimination,
which goes both ways. After all, writers of code for Firefox or
OpenOffice did not have in mind that they would or would not help
someone on a non-free OS. Heck, they even produce and release binaries
for Windows - something the license does not require, but they still
do so. Why? Because adoption happens gradually. Compatibility has to
be addressed if you want to build critical mass.

Furthermore, if one thinks of the entire system divided into layers such as:

--------------------
   Applications
--------------------
 Operating System
--------------------
        BIOS
--------------------
     Hardware
--------------------

Helping people with a free OS but not a non-free OS is discriminating
on the basis of their OS of choice. Any Adobe Flash users on this
list? You might be next! Why stop there? How about the BIOS? How many
list members are guilty of running a proprietary BIOS? At least my
OLPC XO-1 runs on OpenFirmware! I am willing to bet that most of your
computers run on a proprietary BIOS. Should we stop helping you? Maybe
bill you by the hour for supporting a tyrannic BIOS industry?

I agree with david at sterrit.com that its a spectrum of users out there.
It does begin with an itch for Firefox or PDFCreator, or WinSCP (hey,
help people transact securely!) and goes on from there. In closing
I'll say that while I do believe that a LUG should focus on Linux as
its primary vehicle (might I go so far as to say No BSD? That's
another thread >8-)~ ) not addressing the "unwashed masses" results in
"preaching to the choir". I know I don't need any conversion myself.

cheers,
Sameer
-- 
Dr. Sameer Verma, Ph.D.
Associate Professor, Information Systems
Director, Center for Business Solutions
San Francisco State University
http://verma.sfsu.edu/
http://cbs.sfsu.edu/
http://is.sfsu.edu/



From einfeldt at gmail.com  Sun Aug 30 20:16:04 2009
From: einfeldt at gmail.com (Christian Einfeldt)
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 20:16:04 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] mastering CDs in bulk for Software Freedom Day
In-Reply-To: <5fb387c70908301919j1a2aba34i2de3b720b9709168@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1246545427-1251492044-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-109951260-@bxe1008.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<20090828205900.GH22722@linuxmafia.com>
	<5fb387c70908281447pfce3de0gb67e4959b8959244@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090828221751.GI18781@linuxmafia.com>
	<5fb387c70908301919j1a2aba34i2de3b720b9709168@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4b5781040908302016y20287ee2t9f3b32b8cfc0651d@mail.gmail.com>

hi,

Sameer, thanks for providing us with an excellent overview of the adoption
cycle.  Your email helped me be reminded of the bigger picture of
migration.  The global shift to Free Open Source Software is a complex
phenomenon of vast magnitude, involving billions of people and complex
interwoven markets.  I think your email helped us keep in mind just really
how huge this topic is.

 In fact, if I remember correctly,
> Christian was a Windows user, when one of his friends introduced him
> to FOSS.


Yes, Holden Aust volunteered to build a SuSE Linux computer for me out of
parts that I had purchased on the Internet, for which I am still very
grateful to him.  Holden offered to do that after conversations we had in
early 2000 in which I expressed concern for the growing pace of viruses.  I
had not yet been hit by a virus (at least not to my knowledge), and I asked
Holden what the best anti-virus program was.  He replied "Linux". It took
nearly 9 months for me to get my mind around the fact that it would be
feasible for me to switch my law practice to Linux, and I didn' really
implement the switch fully until about March 2001.  And I never would have
made the switch but for the fact that Holden demonstrated that he would
continue to help me out if I had questions, because I didn't see lots of
commercial support for Linux.

Ultimately, I made the switch for three key reasons:  1) fear of viruses; 2)
my belief in the viability of holden's support to get me to the point where
I could support myself with community resources; 3) my disdain for the
Microsoft's domination of the PC software industry as manifest in the
resulting inconvenience and expense to me in sitting on hold with Microsoft
tech support.  I couldn't stand the farce that was involved with doubling,
trippling, quadrupling of the cost of Microsoft software in paying for lousy
support.


> Many people also do not have the option to install a new OS
> on their work machine, even though they can install apps. Why should
> we exclude them?


I'm not sure, Sameer, that anyone has advocated excluding them.  Speaking
only for myself, I am merely saying that Holden's type of advocacy was most
helpful for me, namely, moving me to an all Linux machine.  So my personal
advocacy work with the schools and the students entails supporting only
those teachers and students who are interested in receiving Linux machines.


> I still have Windows XP in a VM on my laptop
>

I still have an XP partition on a notebook that I keep at the office, just
in case I need that environment.  It probably won't work for much, because I
am fairly sure that it only has SP 1 or something like that.  It is not very
current.  I have only used it probably for a total of one hour or so over
the entire course of my ownership of the machine since 2004.  I use the
Ubuntu Linux environment instead.


> Helping people with a free OS but not a non-free OS is discriminating
> on the basis of their OS of choice.


True.  We all have to make choices as to where to place our individual
assistance for newbies in areas where we feel we are most effective.  I
acknowledge that FOSS CDs for Windows users can help build bridges to get
them into the Linux world, but it's just not a path that I choose to
follow.  Also, for me, there is the risk that I would personally end up
helping people use Microsoft Windows, and I just have too much personal
disdain for working in a Microsoft Windows environment to really help people
there.  So I just concentrate on giving people Linux machines.  It's a
personal choice.

But I do see that there will be a net gain of Linux users by giving people
FOSS apps CDs.  Out of every, say 100 people to whom one gives FOSS apps
CDs, a certain percentage, say 2 or 3 % (my guess) will eventually move to
Linux.  And of those 2 or 3 people who move to Linux, maybe 25% would not
have moved to Linux at all if they did not receive FOSS apps CDs.  So it is
a net gain to the good.  My personal concern is that the conversion rate and
the pace of conversion is so low as to not pencil out to be worth it to me.


It's too bad that we don't have any empirical data on this issue and the
success rate of FOSS apps CDs moving people to Linux, because with that data
we would have a much more fruitful conversation.  I would want to see how
many of those newbies moved to Linux, and how long it took them to move to
Linux.  Remember, even with Holden's high quality help and a Linux-only
machine, it still took me a good 9 months or more to move my law practice
over to Linux.


> Any Adobe Flash users on this
> list?


Adobe Flash continues to be a thorn in my side.  Newbies simply won't use
Linux unless YouTube works, and we all know that means a Flash-non-Free
plugin.


> You might be next! Why stop there? How about the BIOS? How many
> list members are guilty of running a proprietary BIOS?


Actually, Sameer, I have not seen anyone on this list make the argument
which you are saying they made.  It is true that some people in the FSF say
that one should simply not use any non-Free software at all.


> not addressing the "unwashed masses" results in
> "preaching to the choir".


This point is one of your strongest, Sameer.  There are hundreds of millions
of people out there voting for Microsoft with their feet and their wallets.
The FOSS apps CDs do help reduce revenue streams for Microsoft, which in
turn reduces Microsoft's ability to spend money on R&D, on buying back
shares to support its sagging stock, on advertising its flee-bitten
products, and on stacking ODF panels etc.  So I am a supporter of what you
are doing in giving out FOSS apps CDs for Microsoft Windows, but I just
don't personally have time to do the same, since I am otherwise busy
supporting teachers, administrators, and students using these Linux
machines:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=rw1t1KwdJvR2sr6NWNQ4Bfw&output=html

Obviously, it is not always practical to use only Free Software, though,
because I am personally using non-Free software to write this email (gmail)
and to track those Linux machines at the Google Docs page given above.
Sometimes the straightest path leads through dark woods.  Sadly.

c u
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From david at sterryit.com  Sun Aug 30 23:23:43 2009
From: david at sterryit.com (David Sterry)
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 23:23:43 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] mastering CDs in bulk for Software Freedom Day
In-Reply-To: <4b5781040908302016y20287ee2t9f3b32b8cfc0651d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1246545427-1251492044-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-109951260-@bxe1008.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>	<20090828205900.GH22722@linuxmafia.com>	<5fb387c70908281447pfce3de0gb67e4959b8959244@mail.gmail.com>	<20090828221751.GI18781@linuxmafia.com>	<5fb387c70908301919j1a2aba34i2de3b720b9709168@mail.gmail.com>
	<4b5781040908302016y20287ee2t9f3b32b8cfc0651d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A9B6C6F.2080709@sterryit.com>

One issue I don't see being addressed is who will be the audience for
any CDs that are produced? Will these be given out to people leaving
malls and big-box stores or will be they be taken to Fry's or to a park?

I really liked the results Sameer mentioned as representing the kind of
thinking that can help get free software in use by more people. If I ran
a store that sold GNU/Linux laptops, I'd be sure to have some videos of
spinning cubes playing at the front window.

One thing that could help clarify the CD issue is by asking one question
before handing a CD to them. For example, "Do you use Firefox or a
Mac?". If they say yes, give them a Linux CD(gNewSense or Kongoni would
give them a maximum dose of free software) and if they say no, give them
the OpenDisc. In essence, you're asking if the journey has begun.
Further discussion can be used to determine the best disc for them and
their friends, family, business, etc.

Thanks for reading.



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Sun Aug 30 23:26:11 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 23:26:11 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] mastering CDs in bulk for Software Freedom Day
In-Reply-To: <5fb387c70908301919j1a2aba34i2de3b720b9709168@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1246545427-1251492044-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-109951260-@bxe1008.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<20090828205900.GH22722@linuxmafia.com>
	<5fb387c70908281447pfce3de0gb67e4959b8959244@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090828221751.GI18781@linuxmafia.com>
	<5fb387c70908301919j1a2aba34i2de3b720b9709168@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090831062611.GL22722@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Sameer Verma (sverma at sfsu.edu):

> This is a somewhat long answer

Sadly, it is not an answer at all.


> Diffusion and adoption of an innovation (FOSS as an innovation) has
> been studied for around 50 years and has a well established record
> across various fields such as agriculture, healthcare, technology,
> etc.

Just as a gut reaction:  I would be deeply doubtful about any attempt to
consider those things comparable, given that they have, for starters,
radically different fundamental problems.

[big snip]

> Populations to be addressed by events such as Software Freedom Day are
> the early majority going through the persuasion stage.

Begs the question:  What persuasion is accomplished?  I've seen what
happens:  They just perceive it as free-of-charge stuff for MS-Windows,
and another reason to take no other action.

[big snip]

> So, as per diffusion and adoption research, to push people in the
> knowledge and/or persuasion stage to adopt FOSS, its very important
> that we address not just the relative advantages of FOSS over what
> they already use, but to address the compatibility with existing
> systems (which in all likelihood will be a Windows environment).


> Excluding Windows users defeats the purpose.

Fallacy of begging the question again.  The open source community has
never "excluded Windows users".  It welcomes their arrival and creates
pretty much all of the best compatibility mechanisms for them, if they
wish to join us on genuine open source operating systems or even if
they don't (Samba, BIND9, ISC dhcpd, Apache httpd, Tomcat....).

It has even, for reasons of compatibility with genuine open source OSes,
written some of the best documentation for some MS-Windows features.
The example that comes most readily to mind is the Linux Documentation
Project's documentation in the HOWTOs concerning NT OS Loader (and
successors), which were always the best documentation available on that
subject.

Not only has the Linux community never "excluded Windows users", but
your rather polemical assumption that handing out MS-Windows software is
_including_ them is clearly bogus.  You're not including them in any
meaningful way whatsoever:  They treat it, and regard it, as just
free-of-charge stuff.

At the end of the day, that's all you'll have done.


And, by the way, you have no hope whatsoever of getting across the
concept of open source / free software to the unitiated if you adopt the
mind-numbingly opaque acronym "FOSS" for it.  "FOSS" is an excellent
example of retrograde motion in public understanding, given that the
listener must understand (1) what the initials stand for, (2) what "free
software" means, _and_ (3) what "open source" means.  This nomenclature
invention, which (along with "FLOSS") seems to have arisen from FSF
hangers-on, has done more harm to public outreach than just about
anything else I've seen in the last several years.

> My other point about the spirit (not just the letter) of the Open
> Source definition (http://www.opensource.org/docs/definition.php) was
> that items 5, 6, 8, 9 and 10 convey a sense of non-discrimination,
> which goes both ways.

Sameer, I think I've been really patient in the face of these extremely
dodgy and unsupportable appeals to the Open Source Definition.  Do you
_really_ need me to detail why avoiding "discrimination" completely and
utterly fails to require or even suggest that members of the Linux
community spend money and time giving MS-Windows users free-of-charge
MS-Windows software?

It was a transparently bogus argument the first time. 


> Helping people with a free OS but not a non-free OS is discriminating
> on the basis of their OS of choice.

Oh, heavens!  Call Interpol!

Again, do you _really_ need this "discrimination" notion dissected?
It's not actually a good use of your time or mine.


> I am willing to bet that most of your computers run on a proprietary
> BIOS. Should we stop helping you?

I'll give you a nice shiny US $50 bill if you can cite where I asked
your help with proprietary BIOS code.  (I'd appreciate an entirely
voluntary $1 payment to recompense me for my time and annoyance if you
can't.)



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Sun Aug 30 23:54:21 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 23:54:21 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] mastering CDs in bulk for Software Freedom Day
In-Reply-To: <4b5781040908302016y20287ee2t9f3b32b8cfc0651d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1246545427-1251492044-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-109951260-@bxe1008.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<20090828205900.GH22722@linuxmafia.com>
	<5fb387c70908281447pfce3de0gb67e4959b8959244@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090828221751.GI18781@linuxmafia.com>
	<5fb387c70908301919j1a2aba34i2de3b720b9709168@mail.gmail.com>
	<4b5781040908302016y20287ee2t9f3b32b8cfc0651d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090831065421.GM22722@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Christian Einfeldt (einfeldt at gmail.com):

> So I am a supporter of what you are doing in giving out FOSS apps CDs
> for Microsoft Windows, but I just don't personally have time to do the
> same, since I am otherwise busy supporting teachers, administrators,
> and students using these Linux machines:

It's always a question of optimising available resources, isn't it?  In
fact...

> But I do see that there will be a net gain of Linux users by giving
> people FOSS apps CDs.  Out of every, say 100 people to whom one gives
> FOSS apps CDs, a certain percentage, say 2 or 3 % (my guess) will
> eventually move to Linux.  And of those 2 or 3 people who move to
> Linux, maybe 25% would not have moved to Linux at all if they did not
> receive FOSS apps CDs.  So it is a net gain to the good. 

...in fact, _that_ -- whether it "is a net gain to the good" -- is
simply not the relevant question, at all.  The relevant question should
be where _else_ can you bestow the same amount of time and money, and
could you do more good by so doing?  I would suggest that one gets far
greater return in building understanding, building community, assisting
others, and performing activities of interest and value to one's self by
working on and with Linux -- as opposed to spending money and time
handing out free-of-charge MS-Windows app CDs.

Fortunately, Sameer wants to waste only his own money and time, not
mine, so to that extent I have absolutely no objection and wish him the
best of luck.  However, I also have no problem giving my opinion that 
the project is justified on the basis of shoddy reasoning and wishful
thinking in the face of long experience to the contrary.




From grantbow at gmail.com  Mon Aug 31 00:41:51 2009
From: grantbow at gmail.com (Grant Bowman)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 00:41:51 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] mastering CDs in bulk for Software Freedom Day
In-Reply-To: <20090831062611.GL22722@linuxmafia.com>
References: <1246545427-1251492044-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-109951260-@bxe1008.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<20090828205900.GH22722@linuxmafia.com>
	<5fb387c70908281447pfce3de0gb67e4959b8959244@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090828221751.GI18781@linuxmafia.com>
	<5fb387c70908301919j1a2aba34i2de3b720b9709168@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090831062611.GL22722@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <317e39f0908310041h4f354278y7004db3ff216f95e@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 11:26 PM, Rick Moen<rick at linuxmafia.com> wrote:
> Quoting Sameer Verma (sverma at sfsu.edu):
>> This is a somewhat long answer
>
> Sadly, it is not an answer at all.

I respectfully disagree with your conclusion.

Assumptions about various "users" can bring one to different
conclusions.  It is difficult to speak with authority about the
spectrum of "users" as one lump group when there is a range from
Microsoft Certified Professionals (I am one) through folks that are
given computers (with software) by family or friends just to get them
onto email and the web.  People who need instructions for how to turn
on a computer or load software themselves, if given a disc, may only
offer it to whoever is their "informal tech support" as an alternative
to try.  The life cycle of a CD is not something that is easily
quantifiable.  At SFSU I suspect students would make up a large
percentage of the population to whom this disc would be distributed.

During computer platform trials or after a decision is made, people
think of migrating their computer platforms on an application by
application basis with an eye toward existing data and future data
compatibility.  Everyone has their own subjective list of needs they
need to address.

Ultimately the problem is education.

> ...
>> Diffusion and adoption of an innovation (FOSS as an innovation) has
>> been studied for around 50 years and has a well established record
>> across various fields such as agriculture, healthcare, technology,
>> etc.
>
> Just as a gut reaction: ?I would be deeply doubtful about any attempt to
> consider those things comparable, given that they have, for starters,
> radically different fundamental problems.

While I respect your gut about many topics (as you might already
know), I trust that 50 years of research might also be helpful in some
ways if it is directly applicable.  Are you saying you don't believe
that Open Source software can be categorized as a technical innovation
from a societal perspective?

> ...
>> Populations to be addressed by events such as Software Freedom Day are
>> the early majority going through the persuasion stage.
>
> Begs the question: ?What persuasion is accomplished? ?I've seen what
> happens: ?They just perceive it as free-of-charge stuff for MS-Windows,
> and another reason to take no other action.

Users care about their data.  They use applications to get to that
data.  Operating systems only exist to help applications share
resources, at least that's how Linus Torvalds explained it in an
interview once.

If users use software that is Open Source and can read legacy formats,
don't you think this is progress?  Whether people realize the value in
the short term or long term varies, however taking this step
absolutely removes a huge factor when considering switching from
Windows to Linux.  If they can switch their OS and use the same
applications (i.e. Open Office, Firefox, Gimp, etc.) they are far more
likely to consider switching, don't you think?

> ...?You're not including them in any
> meaningful way whatsoever: ?They treat it, and regard it, as just
> free-of-charge stuff.

I have had different experiences from yours.  I'm sorry the people you
have tried to help in the past with Open Source applications running
on Windows have not realized the full value of what you were offering.
 Times do change and each user comes with different levels of
education about Open Source.  If it doesn't work for one user it does
not necessarily mean all users won't understand.  Whether Open Source
application users realize it initially or not, if they use Open Source
software and know that other applications exist and perceive some kind
of value, then in my mind they are far more likely to look for other
solutions that they may have been ignorant of in the past.

> ...
> And, by the way, you have no hope whatsoever of getting across the
> concept ...

No hope?  Seems a little bit of a stretch, though it would be more
difficult.  If I correctly decipher the meaning from your statements,
I agree with you that "Open Source" should be name used when talking
about Free Software and Open Source software.

Grant Bowman
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Mon Aug 31 01:26:30 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 01:26:30 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Software Freedom Day in general (was: mastering CDs in
	bulk for	Software Freedom Day)
Message-ID: <20090831082630.GA25581@linuxmafia.com>

Upthread comment that started this discussion:

> Software Freedom Day is coming up fast. http://softwarefreedomday.org/

OK, here's an effort -- at which I may not succeed, but I'll try -- to
articulate why Software Freedom Day ("SFD") typifies a _sort_ of event
I've learned to classify as "best ignored".  Please note that I see this
problem as entirely separate from, and in addition to, the problem of
SFD's principal aims (getting people to propagate discs of MS-Windows
software) being, in my opinion, badly conceived and a poor use of time
and money.

Here's how to construct an major event according to the usual geek
thinking patterns:  1. Have an idea about what you think other people
ought to do.  2. Create a Web site declaring "[foo] Day", and fill it
with text exhorting people to do what you think ought to be done on that
day.  3.  Provide no organisation worthy of the name except a vague
concept of "teams" (to be provided entirely by others); no funds; no
resources that don't already exist; no guidelines for press relations
that aren't utter, totally ignorant rubbish.  4. Sit on your ass.  (5.
Profit!  Just kidding.)

SFD is an absolutely classic example.  As noted previously,  consultant
Matt Oquist got together with UK OpenDisc (Windows apps CD) guy Phil
Harper, created a Web site, and declared a "day".  Functionally, it's
been mostly about getting other people to distribute copies of Phil
Harper's OpenDisc and its derivative OpenEducation Disc, mostly at those
other people's expense -- although Canonical's been mailing out bulk
sets of rather sadly obsolete inventory of Ubuntu 8.04.1 CDs (possibly
also later ones, but the Web site doesn't say so), and a half-dozen
other sponsors have thrown in t-shirts, balloons, stickers, buttons, a
couple of computers, and so on.

Lather, rinse, repeat:  Happens again every year.  They put stuff up on
the Web site, and various disconnected others elsewhere in the world are
expected to do the actual work.  Just follow the franchise!  Why, you
might even get prizes if your "team" is judged to be particularly good.

Do they have any meaningful advice to give about how to deal with the
press and run local events in general?  Reading
http://softwarefreedomday.org/StartGuide suggests the answer is "Nope,
not a bit".  No focus, no insights, no practical tips and example
machine setups, just generic artwork and "marketing materials"
(by other people entirely), and boundless if by-the-numbers enthusiasm.

As with other obnoxious memetic infections (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme), 
if you ignore it, you get your time back.  And then you can do something 
actually worthwhile and properly planned out, if you wish.




From rick at linuxmafia.com  Mon Aug 31 02:04:13 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 02:04:13 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] mastering CDs in bulk for Software Freedom Day
In-Reply-To: <317e39f0908310041h4f354278y7004db3ff216f95e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1246545427-1251492044-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-109951260-@bxe1008.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<20090828205900.GH22722@linuxmafia.com>
	<5fb387c70908281447pfce3de0gb67e4959b8959244@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090828221751.GI18781@linuxmafia.com>
	<5fb387c70908301919j1a2aba34i2de3b720b9709168@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090831062611.GL22722@linuxmafia.com>
	<317e39f0908310041h4f354278y7004db3ff216f95e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090831090412.GN22722@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Grant Bowman (grantbow at gmail.com):

> I respectfully disagree with your conclusion.

Everyone should have a few opinions.  (In fact, it might be worthwhile to
collect the whole set.  ;->  )

> Assumptions about various "users" can bring one to different
> conclusions.  
[snip]

I read that entire set of paragraphs pretty carefully.  I note that none
of it had anything particularly to do with the preceding discussion.

(Honest, I really am trying to read with proper context and attention.)

> While I respect your gut about many topics (as you might already
> know), I trust that 50 years of research might also be helpful in some
> ways if it is directly applicable.  Are you saying you don't believe
> that Open Source software can be categorized as a technical innovation
> from a societal perspective?

Not at all.  That question suggests that you didn't follow what I said.

I said that the incredibly diverse fields of endeavour have entirely
different fundamental problems, and therefore I tend to have extreme
starting skepticism towards any purported common thread among them, and
instead expect handwaving bullshit.

Sameer didn't mention "free culture" in the cited paragraph, so I cannot
fairly complain that he lumped that among the others.  (I'm pretty sure
he did throw it in, further down in his rather hand-wavey posting,
however.)  But let's use it as an example of how this
compare-things-with-different-fundamental-problems habit tends to go
wrong.  I hear people say "Oh, free culture is an extension of free
software" -- but the problems are entirely different.  With free
culture, the problem addressed is ability to remix and republish.  With
free software, the problem addressed is ability to fork and reuse for
any purpose.  That is why, to the perennial surprise of free-software
people, 4 out of the 6 Creative Commons licences are _proprietary_ --
because the right to fork and reuse for any purpose is not the
fundamental problem addressed.

Anyhow, all I was saying, in what you responded to, was that when I see
people trying to draw a common thread across a half-dozen fields of
endeavour with vastly different fundamental problems, my initial gut
reaction -- my expectation -- is that all I'm going to end up seeing is 
handwaving bullshit.

> Users care about their data.

Not so much.  They _should_, but they don't _act_ as if they care about
their data.

Kindly ask the next ten people who bring MS-Windows machines to Linux
installfests, who nervously ask to be set up for dual-boot, what 
backups they have.  Collect the answers, and then, kindly tell me
again with a straight face that they care about their data.


> If users use software that is Open Source and can read legacy formats,
> don't you think this is progress?

First of all, experience suggests that MS-Windows users who are given
free-of-charge CD-ROMs of open source[1] MS-Windows software will
overwhelmingly have absolutely no appreciation whatsoever for the fact
that it is open source, but rather only for it being free of charge.

Second, as noted upthread already, you are not asking the relevant
question.  The relevant question is not whether you're creating
progress, but rather whether considerably _more_ progress cannot be
brought about by applying the same money and time elsewhere.  I think on
the basis of my own long experience that it's abundantly clear that
handing out OpenDisc copies to MS-Windows users is a really poor and
ineffective use of that time and money.

> Whether people realize the value in the short term or long term
> varies, however taking this step absolutely removes a huge factor when
> considering switching from Windows to Linux.  If they can switch their
> OS and use the same applications (i.e. Open Office, Firefox, Gimp,
> etc.) they are far more likely to consider switching, don't you think?

Seventeen years of exposure to this line of advocacy concerning handing
out free-of-charge MS-Windows software at one's own expense in time and
money, suggests that it's bullshit:  Overwhelmingly they simply don't.
And, more to the immediate point, the time and money are far more
effectively spent elsewhere.


> > And, by the way, you have no hope whatsoever of getting across the
> > concept ...
> 
> No hope?  Seems a little bit of a stretch, though it would be more
> difficult.

I think my meaning should have been abundantly clear.  A deliberate
choice of incompetent marketing terminology shoots in the foot one's own
ability to communicate to the target audience at all.

[1] I'm sorry, but why are you treating "open source" as a proper noun
in this context?  It isn't one.



From mason.christopher.thomas at gmail.com  Mon Aug 31 03:43:27 2009
From: mason.christopher.thomas at gmail.com (Chris Mason)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 03:43:27 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] sf-lug Digest, Vol 43, Issue 24
In-Reply-To: <mailman.340.1251709454.1647.sf-lug@linuxmafia.com>
References: <mailman.340.1251709454.1647.sf-lug@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <c8c30a7c0908310343r466b8de2rc9175d558f18d927@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

This is my first post in this mailing list, and I have yet to show up
to any meetings as I have been away from the bay for the last decade
or so and discovered Free Software while away. Though I tend to agree
with Mr. Moen about what a waste of time it is to throw money away
handing out CDs with OpenOffice.org for Windows and Pidgin for
Windows, I will not help him fight a battle he seems perfectly able to
fight for himself.

Instead, I will go ahead and toss something into the debate that I do
not think has been mentioned before:

VIDYA GAMES!

http://live.linux-gamers.net/

Many of the arguments against Free Software for Windows can also be
applied here, this is true.

However, this will get users _out_ of Windows. In order to play with
this DVD containing a dozen or so video games, the user will need to
learn to enter his BIOS setup and change the boot priority.

That, in itself, will do a _lot_ to get users to at least possess some
of the most basic and fundamental technical skills required for
eventual migration - and it will turn their brains on.... which can
only _help_ the Free Software movement.

Pros:
-"You _must_ have Windows to play video games on your computer" theory
is gone. For many casual users, that is a _huge_ thing holding them
back.
-Encouraging users to be more educated about how their computer works
can _only_ help the cause.
-Teenagers and Young Adults _are_ the future... And any are already
familiar with the "Cartridge" paradigm of video games - some from
Nintendo and some from PS3. "Insert Disc (maybe play with BIOS) and
reboot" is speaking their language.
-Once their computer is booted from that video game DVD, they will be
_using a GNU/Linux system_. Maybe they will explore, maybe they will
not. Those that do not won't hurt the cause, and those that do may
help the cause one month or one decade from now.
-Encourage the kids to copy and redistribute because "the man" doesn't
want them to. They will feel rebellious and comply. I see nothing
wrong with that, or its results.

Cons:
-Some (most?) may still simply treat it as Freeware. Probably less
than users of a MS Windows Free Software CD. The effort included in
playing with BIOS, at least, will get them thinking. Turning critical
thinking and brains to the 'on' position is huge!
-Increased cost. DVD-Rs are more expensive than CD-Rs.
-For most, proprietary stuff (video drivers mostly) will need to be
enabled to play the games. We will need to be pragmatic enough to
accept that ATI and NVidia have reasons to keep their secrets and
accept this. To paraphrase what someone said earlier -- If it won't
play youtube, the kids aren't interested.  ("kids" - of course -
simply another word for "the future".) The same thing applies to fancy
3d graphics. You and I may think Wesnoth and nethack are great, but we
are the present and the past, and not as much the future.


Regards,

Chris Mason



From larry.cafiero at gmail.com  Mon Aug 31 08:20:10 2009
From: larry.cafiero at gmail.com (Larry Cafiero)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 08:20:10 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] mastering CDs in bulk for Software Freedom Day
In-Reply-To: <20090831090412.GN22722@linuxmafia.com>
References: <1246545427-1251492044-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-109951260-@bxe1008.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<20090828205900.GH22722@linuxmafia.com>
	<5fb387c70908281447pfce3de0gb67e4959b8959244@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090828221751.GI18781@linuxmafia.com>
	<5fb387c70908301919j1a2aba34i2de3b720b9709168@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090831062611.GL22722@linuxmafia.com>
	<317e39f0908310041h4f354278y7004db3ff216f95e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090831090412.GN22722@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <7a0d56080908310820o11f52305p1f8ca38f342536ed@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 2:04 AM, Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com> wrote:

> Quoting Grant Bowman (grantbow at gmail.com):
>
> > I respectfully disagree with your conclusion.
>
> Everyone should have a few opinions.  (In fact, it might be worthwhile to
> collect the whole set.  ;->  )
>
> > Assumptions about various "users" can bring one to different
> > conclusions.
> [snip]
>
> I read that entire set of paragraphs pretty carefully.  I note that none
> of it had anything particularly to do with the preceding discussion.
>
> (Honest, I really am trying to read with proper context and attention.)
>
> > While I respect your gut about many topics (as you might already
> > know), I trust that 50 years of research might also be helpful in some
> > ways if it is directly applicable.  Are you saying you don't believe
> > that Open Source software can be categorized as a technical innovation
> > from a societal perspective?
>
> Not at all.  That question suggests that you didn't follow what I said.
>
> I said that the incredibly diverse fields of endeavour have entirely
> different fundamental problems, and therefore I tend to have extreme
> starting skepticism towards any purported common thread among them, and
> instead expect handwaving bullshit.
>
> Sameer didn't mention "free culture" in the cited paragraph, so I cannot
> fairly complain that he lumped that among the others.  (I'm pretty sure
> he did throw it in, further down in his rather hand-wavey posting,
> however.)  But let's use it as an example of how this
> compare-things-with-different-fundamental-problems habit tends to go
> wrong.  I hear people say "Oh, free culture is an extension of free
> software" -- but the problems are entirely different.  With free
> culture, the problem addressed is ability to remix and republish.  With
> free software, the problem addressed is ability to fork and reuse for
> any purpose.  That is why, to the perennial surprise of free-software
> people, 4 out of the 6 Creative Commons licences are _proprietary_ --
> because the right to fork and reuse for any purpose is not the
> fundamental problem addressed.
>
> Anyhow, all I was saying, in what you responded to, was that when I see
> people trying to draw a common thread across a half-dozen fields of
> endeavour with vastly different fundamental problems, my initial gut
> reaction -- my expectation -- is that all I'm going to end up seeing is
> handwaving bullshit.
>
> > Users care about their data.
>
> Not so much.  They _should_, but they don't _act_ as if they care about
> their data.
>
> Kindly ask the next ten people who bring MS-Windows machines to Linux
> installfests, who nervously ask to be set up for dual-boot, what
> backups they have.  Collect the answers, and then, kindly tell me
> again with a straight face that they care about their data.
>
>
> > If users use software that is Open Source and can read legacy formats,
> > don't you think this is progress?
>
> First of all, experience suggests that MS-Windows users who are given
> free-of-charge CD-ROMs of open source[1] MS-Windows software will
> overwhelmingly have absolutely no appreciation whatsoever for the fact
> that it is open source, but rather only for it being free of charge.
>
> Second, as noted upthread already, you are not asking the relevant
> question.  The relevant question is not whether you're creating
> progress, but rather whether considerably _more_ progress cannot be
> brought about by applying the same money and time elsewhere.  I think on
> the basis of my own long experience that it's abundantly clear that
> handing out OpenDisc copies to MS-Windows users is a really poor and
> ineffective use of that time and money.
>
> > Whether people realize the value in the short term or long term
> > varies, however taking this step absolutely removes a huge factor when
> > considering switching from Windows to Linux.  If they can switch their
> > OS and use the same applications (i.e. Open Office, Firefox, Gimp,
> > etc.) they are far more likely to consider switching, don't you think?
>
> Seventeen years of exposure to this line of advocacy concerning handing
> out free-of-charge MS-Windows software at one's own expense in time and
> money, suggests that it's bullshit:  Overwhelmingly they simply don't.
> And, more to the immediate point, the time and money are far more
> effectively spent elsewhere.
>
>
> > > And, by the way, you have no hope whatsoever of getting across the
> > > concept ...
> >
> > No hope?  Seems a little bit of a stretch, though it would be more
> > difficult.
>
> I think my meaning should have been abundantly clear.  A deliberate
> choice of incompetent marketing terminology shoots in the foot one's own
> ability to communicate to the target audience at all.
>
> [1] I'm sorry, but why are you treating "open source" as a proper noun
> in this context?  It isn't one.
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>
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From larry.cafiero at gmail.com  Mon Aug 31 09:08:53 2009
From: larry.cafiero at gmail.com (Larry Cafiero)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 09:08:53 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] mastering CDs in bulk for Software Freedom Day
In-Reply-To: <20090831090412.GN22722@linuxmafia.com>
References: <1246545427-1251492044-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-109951260-@bxe1008.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<20090828205900.GH22722@linuxmafia.com>
	<5fb387c70908281447pfce3de0gb67e4959b8959244@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090828221751.GI18781@linuxmafia.com>
	<5fb387c70908301919j1a2aba34i2de3b720b9709168@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090831062611.GL22722@linuxmafia.com>
	<317e39f0908310041h4f354278y7004db3ff216f95e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090831090412.GN22722@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <7a0d56080908310908x59cc9089uddab4b43d53fd508@mail.gmail.com>

[Note to self: Don't respond to e-mails until you've had a cup of coffee.]

On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 2:04 AM, Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com> wrote:

> Quoting Grant Bowman (grantbow at gmail.com):
>
> > I respectfully disagree with your conclusion.
>
> Everyone should have a few opinions.  (In fact, it might be worthwhile to
> collect the whole set.  ;->  )


Indeed, and I would like to offer mine to this interesting discussion while
thanking those who added to my collected set throughout this thread.

Despite my opinion that the OpenCD aspect of this event is a portion of the
whole -- the packets from SFD also come with a fistful of Ubuntu 9.04 Live
CDs as well, which (with other distros) should be front-and-center -- I
think Rick is right on the fundamental issue regarding whether handing out
OpenCD media hamstrings the cause of promoting the open source paradigm
going forward.

Offering people open source programs to run on Windows promotes the subtext
that it's okay to run open source software on propritetary operating
systems, regardless of how much we might "explain" the necessity and virtues
of running the same open source programs on Linux/*BSD/OpenSolaris. Further,
it's completely conceivable that offering a CD like OpenCD is both the start
and end-game of a Windows user's exposure to open source because, "Hey, I've
got Firefox and OpenOffice and this GIMP thing on Vista -- I'm open source.
What more do I need? DRM? Who cares? Where's that dramatic chipmunk video I
wanted to show you on YouTube?"

Having said this, we're going to alter the Lindependence/SFD Felton event
(we merged the two this year) to exclude the OpenCD and treat the event as a
celebration of open source and program the event more like an installfest
centered around open source software running on open source operating
systems. Along with the Ubuntu live CDs, we'll have Fedora and Mandriva CDs
available and machines running all three, and anyone who wants to promote
their favorite distro is welcome to participate, as we did last year at
Lindependence. If those who wish to try open source programs on Windows
insist, we could point them to the Web site (i.e., OpenOffice.org, for
example) where they could download them, but it would be up to them to do
so. But the onus would be on them to go forward, not on us acting as the
"enabler" for a potentially counterproductive step in exposing people to
open source software.

I certainly have no objection to Sameer and others burning more OpenCDs, and
I can see their points. However, this is the course we're taking down here
and I thought I'd pass that on.

Larry Cafiero
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From larry.cafiero at gmail.com  Mon Aug 31 09:18:01 2009
From: larry.cafiero at gmail.com (Larry Cafiero)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 09:18:01 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Software Freedom Day in general (was: mastering CDs in
	bulk for Software Freedom Day)
In-Reply-To: <20090831082630.GA25581@linuxmafia.com>
References: <20090831082630.GA25581@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <7a0d56080908310918u3d6b41b5s56bda9847039654a@mail.gmail.com>

Having participated in Software Freedom Day for the last couple of years --
and having offered to provide my three decades of press experience to help,
only to be respectfully told "no thanks" -- Rick brings up some excellent
points here about the SFD organization, or lack thereof.

Further, I don't know who maintains the pages and/or server for SFD, but on
more than one occasion, our page had "disappeared" or had reverted back to a
2007 page. I'm still scratching my head about this one.

But regardless, I think any opportunity to promote the use of open source
software should be utitlized, and it's incumbent on those of us who wish to
do so take the reins and make the events our own.

[Of course, there's also the option of doing it yourself as well, a la
Lindependence.]

Larry Cafiero

On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 1:26 AM, Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com> wrote:

> Upthread comment that started this discussion:
>
> > Software Freedom Day is coming up fast. http://softwarefreedomday.org/
>
> OK, here's an effort -- at which I may not succeed, but I'll try -- to
> articulate why Software Freedom Day ("SFD") typifies a _sort_ of event
> I've learned to classify as "best ignored".  Please note that I see this
> problem as entirely separate from, and in addition to, the problem of
> SFD's principal aims (getting people to propagate discs of MS-Windows
> software) being, in my opinion, badly conceived and a poor use of time
> and money.
>
> Here's how to construct an major event according to the usual geek
> thinking patterns:  1. Have an idea about what you think other people
> ought to do.  2. Create a Web site declaring "[foo] Day", and fill it
> with text exhorting people to do what you think ought to be done on that
> day.  3.  Provide no organisation worthy of the name except a vague
> concept of "teams" (to be provided entirely by others); no funds; no
> resources that don't already exist; no guidelines for press relations
> that aren't utter, totally ignorant rubbish.  4. Sit on your ass.  (5.
> Profit!  Just kidding.)
>
> SFD is an absolutely classic example.  As noted previously,  consultant
> Matt Oquist got together with UK OpenDisc (Windows apps CD) guy Phil
> Harper, created a Web site, and declared a "day".  Functionally, it's
> been mostly about getting other people to distribute copies of Phil
> Harper's OpenDisc and its derivative OpenEducation Disc, mostly at those
> other people's expense -- although Canonical's been mailing out bulk
> sets of rather sadly obsolete inventory of Ubuntu 8.04.1 CDs (possibly
> also later ones, but the Web site doesn't say so), and a half-dozen
> other sponsors have thrown in t-shirts, balloons, stickers, buttons, a
> couple of computers, and so on.
>
> Lather, rinse, repeat:  Happens again every year.  They put stuff up on
> the Web site, and various disconnected others elsewhere in the world are
> expected to do the actual work.  Just follow the franchise!  Why, you
> might even get prizes if your "team" is judged to be particularly good.
>
> Do they have any meaningful advice to give about how to deal with the
> press and run local events in general?  Reading
> http://softwarefreedomday.org/StartGuide suggests the answer is "Nope,
> not a bit".  No focus, no insights, no practical tips and example
> machine setups, just generic artwork and "marketing materials"
> (by other people entirely), and boundless if by-the-numbers enthusiasm.
>
> As with other obnoxious memetic infections (
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme),
> if you ignore it, you get your time back.  And then you can do something
> actually worthwhile and properly planned out, if you wish.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>
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From grantbow at gmail.com  Mon Aug 31 21:18:20 2009
From: grantbow at gmail.com (Grant Bowman)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 21:18:20 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] mastering CDs in bulk for Software Freedom Day
In-Reply-To: <20090831090412.GN22722@linuxmafia.com>
References: <1246545427-1251492044-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-109951260-@bxe1008.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<20090828205900.GH22722@linuxmafia.com>
	<5fb387c70908281447pfce3de0gb67e4959b8959244@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090828221751.GI18781@linuxmafia.com>
	<5fb387c70908301919j1a2aba34i2de3b720b9709168@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090831062611.GL22722@linuxmafia.com>
	<317e39f0908310041h4f354278y7004db3ff216f95e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090831090412.GN22722@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <317e39f0908312118i58cf1095had6f3b7902f4218d@mail.gmail.com>

I wish I had the time to constantly confront and write rebuttals to
almost all responses in mail list threads and effectively overwhelm
all opposition to my "opinions."  Sharing your opinion is one thing,
but when it's done far more vigorously...

On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 2:04 AM, Rick Moen<rick at linuxmafia.com> wrote:
> ... The relevant question is not whether you're creating
> progress, but rather whether considerably _more_ progress cannot be
> brought about by applying the same money and time elsewhere.
> ... the time and money are far more effectively spent elsewhere.

What exactly do you think those things are for the Sameer and I?

I understand that you think this is the most relevant question.  Other
people have different measures of progress and impact.  While money is
fungible, one individual's time is not fungible with another's.  Your
opinions of Software Freedom Day have had some light - how about you
allow others a chance?  Or would you like to assess the skills of
every person willing to be a part of Software Freedom Day world wide
and tell them what is more effective in your view, not only explaining
in great detail what they should not do but what they should do?

> ... I think my meaning should have been abundantly clear.

Clear communication is a challenging aspect of the human condition.

In this case you have said what terms not to use (FOSS/FLOSS, etc) but
have not stated your preference for an alternative.  Open Source is
not to your liking.  What is? "open source software"  And do you agree
with the idea to use "open source" or "open source software" instead
of Free Software to denote specifically the group of software using
licenses that are OSI certified and FSF certified?  What about those
licenses that are FSF certified but not OSI certified?

> ... [1] I'm sorry, but why are you treating "open source" as a proper noun
> in this context?  It isn't one.

Rick, I value your input and thought provoking perspective.  Yet even
when I try to overtly agree with you it is somehow a confrontation.  I
believe http://www.opensource.org/faq uses the same "noun" usage to
denote the specific OSI/OSD implementation of the general idea of free
software and open source software ideas.  The trademark is of the logo
and the OSI words.  You are accurate that there is no universally
agreed to noun.  The attempt to register the service mark was
unsuccessful.  This only goes to show that the constant confusion over
the very name and definition of the "stuff" we are talking about is an
ever present problem EVEN among people that have dealt with these
ideas professionally for years.  This is another aspect of the
difficulty of educating those not already familiar with "open source
software."  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_terms_for_free_software

Grant Bowman
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Tue Sep  1 02:26:59 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 02:26:59 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] mastering CDs in bulk for Software Freedom Day
In-Reply-To: <317e39f0908312118i58cf1095had6f3b7902f4218d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1246545427-1251492044-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-109951260-@bxe1008.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<20090828205900.GH22722@linuxmafia.com>
	<5fb387c70908281447pfce3de0gb67e4959b8959244@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090828221751.GI18781@linuxmafia.com>
	<5fb387c70908301919j1a2aba34i2de3b720b9709168@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090831062611.GL22722@linuxmafia.com>
	<317e39f0908310041h4f354278y7004db3ff216f95e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090831090412.GN22722@linuxmafia.com>
	<317e39f0908312118i58cf1095had6f3b7902f4218d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090901092659.GT22722@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Grant Bowman (grantbow at gmail.com):

> I wish I had the time to constantly confront and write rebuttals to
> almost all responses in mail list threads and effectively overwhelm
> all opposition to my "opinions."  Sharing your opinion is one thing,
> but when it's done far more vigorously...

I certainly mean no offence, and you're both entitled to your views.
(Albeit, Sameer's bit about "discrimination", etc., the sideshow about
proprietary code in ROMs, and the two ridiculous appeals to the Open
Source Definition, were a bit much.)

> What exactly do you think those things are for the Sameer and I?

I think where you choose to lavish your time and money are personal
decisions I respect.

At the same time, I offered the opinion and prediction that the
action proposed is going to be an inefficient use of those resources.  
Please consider taking that in the spirit intended:  If I didn't like
you guys, I wouldn't bother trying to help you in, IMO, avoiding wasteage.

> I understand that you think this is the most relevant question.  Other
> people have different measures of progress and impact.  While money is
> fungible, one individual's time is not fungible with another's.

Er, here you seem to be claiming to differ, but then not actually saying
anything that differs from what I said.  No complaint, but I'll admit
this is a bit confusing.

> Your opinions of Software Freedom Day have had some light - how about
> you allow others a chance?

_Allow_?  Allow others a chance to _what_, sir?  Are you suggesting that
I'm somehow preventing anyone else from holding an opinion, by
expressing my view?  Do you think I'm operating orbital mind-control
lasers, and are asking me to turn them off for a while?

C'mon, Grant.  Cut the crap.


> In this case you have said what terms not to use (FOSS/FLOSS, etc) but
> have not stated your preference for an alternative.  Open Source is
> not to your liking. 

That has nothing to do with "my liking".  It's simply not a proper noun!
Are you actually claiming it's a proper noun?

> What is?

I tend to throw into what I write both the phrases "open source" and
"free software" as appropriate in context, and (space permitting) try at
some point to subtly suggest that they're two maps to the same semantic
territory (which they are) through wording like "open source / free
software" or "open source AKA free software".

If it's a really short piece, I tend to say just "open source", that
being by far the clearest of the terms available for users of the
English language.


> And do you agree with the idea to use "open source" or "open source
> software" instead of Free Software to denote specifically the group of
> software using licenses that are OSI certified and FSF certified?  

No.  First of all, to repeat my take on the big picture (leaving aside
"certification" for a moment):  Open source and free software are two
maps to the same semantic territory.  Same software and licensing
(modulo meaningless differences on one or two licences nobody really
cares about)[1] , slightly different marketing programs.

I have absolutely no problem with referring to software as either free
software or open source if and only if its licensing terms, source
availability, and lack of problematic legal encumbrances (e.g., patents)
legitimately qualify for those statuses on their merits, regardless of
whether anyone has "certified" the licences.

(You might have forgotten:  Software can be under a OSI or FSF-certified
licence and yet remain proprietary, if either no source is available, or 
the software is subject to significant legal encumbrances that prevent
the exercise of otherwise-granted rights.)  

Anyway, FWIW, I vastly prefer DFSG (the Debian Free Software Guidelines)
as a criterion for "free software" over anything FSF has ever offered.
E.g., what used to be called the Four Freedoms Essay and lately has been
styled the "Free Software Definition" strikes me as functionally useless
for evaluating licences, on account of excessive vagueness.  So, I
consider "free software licences" to mean "licences satisfying DFSG".

> What about those licenses that are FSF certified but not OSI
> certified?

Basically meaningless trivia revolving around a couple of licences
(or maybe as few as one licence) that nobody really cares about to begin
with.  And _also_ irrelevant from my perspective to start with, because
I consider DFSG the relevant criterion as to whether a software licence
is "free".  Since DFSG happens to be almost precisely identical to the
OSD (OSD having been created by slightly modifying DFSG to remove Debian
references), I personally consider there to be _zero_ difference between
the set of free software licences and that of open source licences.


> Rick, I value your input and thought provoking perspective.  Yet even
> when I try to overtly agree with you it is somehow a confrontation.  I
> believe http://www.opensource.org/faq uses the same "noun" usage to
> denote the specific OSI/OSD implementation of the general idea of free
> software and open source software ideas.  

Actually, that appears to be a reference to a would-be, claimed
trademark.  However, you weren't talking about an OSI trademark, but
rather about the generic concept of open source -- which is by its
nature in that context a common noun, not a proper noun.  You weren't
talking about Open Source, the abstract property concept that OSI
asserts under common-law trademark.  You were talking about the concept
of some software being open source.

> The trademark is of the logo and the OSI words.

And those words?  Answer:  The (eventually) USPTO-registered trademarked
term was "OSI Certified" -- not "Open Source".  (By "trademark" you mean
_registered_ trademark.  OSI Board members have asserted common-law
trademark on the term "open source", albeit acknowledging that it is
probably weak.) 

> You are accurate that there is no universally agreed to noun.

Er, that is _not_ what I said.  It's more than bizarre to see you claim
that I did.  I simply said that "open source" is not a proper noun.
Because, in the context you used the term (the usual context), it's not.

> The attempt to register the service mark was unsuccessful. 

Which, as noted, does not automatically mean absence of trademark
rights, period -- just lack of USPTO registration status.  (I would be
glad to clarify the differences between registered trademarks and
common-law ones if you like.  We at _Linux Gazette_ had to research the
law on that matter when Phil Hughes of SSC, Inc. attempted
unsuccessfully to strong-arm our magazine using trademark law claims.)

> This only goes to show that the constant confusion over the very name
> and definition of the "stuff" we are talking about is an ever present
> problem EVEN among people that have dealt with these ideas
> professionally for years.

Um:  1.  Your conclusion is doubtful:  Nobody who's familiar with this
material is in the least bit confused over the name and definition.
2.  Your conclusion also doesn't actually follow from your premise.  
3.  Anyway, all that has really nothing to do with my point, to which
you were replying, that "open source" is simply not a proper noun, and
so should not be in capitals.

The latter isn't a big thing.  I actually just meant to call the matter
to your attenion in passing.


> This is another aspect of the difficulty of educating those not
> already familiar with "open source software."

Getting back to my larger point:  That "difficulty", such as it is,
pales compared to the difficulty of educating anyone using the term
"FOSS" -- for the reasons I mentioned.

[1] The only one I can even think of, offhand, is an early version of
APSL, now long obsolete.  It's possible that one group has 



From larry.cafiero at gmail.com  Tue Sep  1 09:49:40 2009
From: larry.cafiero at gmail.com (Larry Cafiero)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 09:49:40 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] mastering CDs in bulk for Software Freedom Day
In-Reply-To: <20090901092659.GT22722@linuxmafia.com>
References: <1246545427-1251492044-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-109951260-@bxe1008.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<20090828205900.GH22722@linuxmafia.com>
	<5fb387c70908281447pfce3de0gb67e4959b8959244@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090828221751.GI18781@linuxmafia.com>
	<5fb387c70908301919j1a2aba34i2de3b720b9709168@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090831062611.GL22722@linuxmafia.com>
	<317e39f0908310041h4f354278y7004db3ff216f95e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090831090412.GN22722@linuxmafia.com>
	<317e39f0908312118i58cf1095had6f3b7902f4218d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090901092659.GT22722@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <7a0d56080909010949i4fc57205se9ed21a75eb84568@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 2:26 AM, Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com> responded to
Grant Bowman:

> Do you think I'm operating orbital mind-control
> lasers, and are asking me to turn them off for a while?


You mean you don't, Rick? Rats. :-)

One of the undercurrents in this, um, discussion is that -- painting all
non-Linux/non-open source users with the same brush for a moment -- those
targeted folks here are likely the kind of user who a.) doesn't know about
the nuances of open-versus-proprietary software, which they'll find out when
they attend an event such as this, and b.) may not care after we've given
them the wisdom we're sharing, returning to a life of point-the-remote,
check-the-e-mail and deal with the rest of life.

In this instance the OpenCD fails because those who don't give a damn will
only consider programs like OpenOffice.org or Firefox "free stuff" for their
computer, all the while continuing to be too lazy or ignorant to figure out
why their computers are so slow and full of viruses (to say nothing of being
eternally enslaved by DRM and the like). You can bring a horse to water . .
. .

The flip side -- there's always a flip side -- is that not all
non-Linux/non-open source users are monolithically alike. You will get users
who are a little more astute who will "get" the open source concept and
ideals, and who may not convert to Linux immediately (but should, and should
be brought along at their own speed if interested) but will get exposure
through the OpenCD to open source programs like OO.o and GIMP and Scribus (I
think that's on the CD) and, taking it further, may end up as part of the
wider open source community or one of its subsets.

That would be great, if it happens.

So I guess the value of burning OpenCDs is in the approach and, as I
mentioned in a previous e-mail, in Felton we're going to focus on
"enlightening" the unwashed masses about open source -- how it works, why
it's important, and here are some computers running different Linux distros
-- and not to provide them a crutch by allowing them think that just using
open source programs on Windows is "good enough."

[Of course, under some circumstances, I might -- MIGHT -- give someone the
OpenCD if I think they "get" it, and for some reason can't use a Live CD to
try out a distro. But this would not require me to burn a bunch of them.]

In San Francisco, it may be a different story and the OpenCD may work, if
that's the assessment there. Your mileage may vary. But as brought up
earlier in this discussion, I believe you run the risk of enabling people to
take the half-step of thinking they're "doing good" by using open source
software on a proprietary OS and stopping there, when really they should be
taking more steps toward digital independence.

Also, while I have been on the wrong end of Rick's verbal rapier from time
to time and while I don't always agree with him, I do value his experience,
knowledge and judgment. I don't want to speak for him -- God forbid! :-) --
but it should be noted again that I don't think that Rick would make the
effort he consistently does to "keep the loonies on the path" (to quote a
Pink Floyd song) if he didn't care. If he didn't care, he'd let the falling
16-ton weight of faulty logic and misdirection flatten us, rather than
pushing us out of the way.

This has been an interesting discussion, to say the least, and thanks for
all who have participated. Now I really have to get some work done.

Larry Cafiero
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From a_kleider at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  1 10:09:08 2009
From: a_kleider at yahoo.com (Alex Kleider)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 10:09:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sf-lug] laptop / rebate re OS
In-Reply-To: <20090819203652.18642wm519ffbwkk@webmail.rawbw.com>
Message-ID: <925.17692.qm@web110608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

At the last Monday meeting, there was a fellow who told us of his getting the cost of M$Windows software returned because he was installing linux instead. Can someone tell me which model/brand (Asus I think) that computer was? 

I'm being asked for a recommendation and this is the one that I think would be most suitable.

> 


      



From ewalstad at gmail.com  Tue Sep  1 10:18:38 2009
From: ewalstad at gmail.com (Eric Walstad)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 10:18:38 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] laptop / rebate re OS
In-Reply-To: <925.17692.qm@web110608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <20090819203652.18642wm519ffbwkk@webmail.rawbw.com>
	<925.17692.qm@web110608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c436fcd20909011018qc30d546p4b0f7d2c0e4f2cf7@mail.gmail.com>

Alex,

On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 10:09 AM, Alex Kleider<a_kleider at yahoo.com> wrote:
> At the last Monday meeting, there was a fellow who told us of his getting the cost of M$Windows software returned because he was installing linux instead. Can someone tell me which model/brand (Asus I think) that computer was?
>
> I'm being asked for a recommendation and this is the one that I think would be most suitable.
>
>>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You will find your answer by following the link, above, and looking in
the list archives.

EW



From sverma at sfsu.edu  Tue Sep  1 11:17:37 2009
From: sverma at sfsu.edu (Sameer Verma)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 11:17:37 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] laptop / rebate re OS
In-Reply-To: <925.17692.qm@web110608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <20090819203652.18642wm519ffbwkk@webmail.rawbw.com>
	<925.17692.qm@web110608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5fb387c70909011117o1eb156del154cebaf195a9ed@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 10:09 AM, Alex Kleider<a_kleider at yahoo.com> wrote:
> At the last Monday meeting, there was a fellow who told us of his getting the cost of M$Windows software returned because he was installing linux instead. Can someone tell me which model/brand (Asus I think) that computer was?
>
> I'm being asked for a recommendation and this is the one that I think would be most suitable.
>

This one? http://linuxmafia.com/pipermail/sf-lug/2009q3/006841.html

Sameer
-- 
Dr. Sameer Verma, Ph.D.
Associate Professor, Information Systems
Director, Center for Business Solutions
San Francisco State University
http://verma.sfsu.edu/
http://cbs.sfsu.edu/
http://is.sfsu.edu/



From sverma at sfsu.edu  Tue Sep  1 11:27:47 2009
From: sverma at sfsu.edu (Sameer Verma)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 11:27:47 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Open source projects and PR
Message-ID: <5fb387c70909011127yc369fd1i9f9bd8246d953a2b@mail.gmail.com>

This came to me from one of the sugarlabs.org list. Interesting read.
http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/how-land-spot-spotlight-part-i

Sameer
-- 
Dr. Sameer Verma, Ph.D.
Associate Professor, Information Systems
Director, Center for Business Solutions
San Francisco State University
http://verma.sfsu.edu/
http://cbs.sfsu.edu/
http://is.sfsu.edu/



From mikkimc at earthlink.net  Tue Sep  1 11:37:27 2009
From: mikkimc at earthlink.net (Mikki McGee)
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2009 11:37:27 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] laptop / rebate re OS
In-Reply-To: <c436fcd20909011018qc30d546p4b0f7d2c0e4f2cf7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090819203652.18642wm519ffbwkk@webmail.rawbw.com>	<925.17692.qm@web110608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<c436fcd20909011018qc30d546p4b0f7d2c0e4f2cf7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A9D69E7.9020404@earthlink.net>

Hi, all;

That was the Asus eeepc 1000He

I was particularly interested as I was interested in buying one, and I 
did.  I will soon apply for the rebate.

Mikki

Eric Walstad wrote:
> Alex,
>
> On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 10:09 AM, Alex Kleider<a_kleider at yahoo.com> wrote:
>   
>> At the last Monday meeting, there was a fellow who told us of his getting the cost of M$Windows software returned because he was installing linux instead. Can someone tell me which model/brand (Asus I think) that computer was?
>>
>> I'm being asked for a recommendation and this is the one that I think would be most suitable.
>>
>>     
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sf-lug mailing list
>> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
>> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>>     
>    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> You will find your answer by following the link, above, and looking in
> the list archives.
>
> EW
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>
>   

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From a_kleider at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  1 14:03:19 2009
From: a_kleider at yahoo.com (Alex Kleider)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 14:03:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sf-lug] laptop / rebate re OS
Message-ID: <791831.76107.qm@web110614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

thank you, Mai, Mikki, Eric and Sameer.
I think Amazon will have a sale and will be coughing back some money for the unnecessary bit.
cheers,
alex





--- On Tue, 9/1/09, mai wurd <maiwurd at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: mai wurd <maiwurd at gmail.com>
> Subject: RE: SFLUG inquiry
> To: a_kleider at yahoo.com
> Date: Tuesday, September 1, 2009, 10:52 AM
> Alex,
> 
> The Asus model is the 1000HE - with eeebuntu .?? .?? .
> YEAS!!!
> 
> 
> Br at d
> 
> -- 
> Always think about positive affirmations before going to
> sleep. This spirit guides our subconscious as we sleep and
> creates our reality.
> 
> Giving thanks, for that which has not happened yet, allows
> a spirit/life pattern to manifest in our lives.
> 
>



      



From einfeldt at gmail.com  Tue Sep  1 14:35:32 2009
From: einfeldt at gmail.com (Christian Einfeldt)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 14:35:32 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] laptop / rebate re OS
In-Reply-To: <925.17692.qm@web110608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <20090819203652.18642wm519ffbwkk@webmail.rawbw.com>
	<925.17692.qm@web110608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4b5781040909011435g5ee45375id8b12891d01e5509@mail.gmail.com>

hi,

On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 10:09 AM, Alex Kleider <a_kleider at yahoo.com> wrote:

> At the last Monday meeting, there was a fellow who told us of his getting
> the cost of M$Windows software returned because he was installing linux
> instead. Can someone tell me which model/brand (Asus I think) that computer
> was?
>
> I'm being asked for a recommendation and this is the one that I think would
> be most suitable.
>
>
Amazon will refund the license fee:

http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/07/23/1855211

christian.einfeldt <einfeldt@@@digitaltippingpoint...com> writes *"Alan
Lord, a FOSS computer consultant based in the UK, has announced that Amazon
UK honored his request for a
refund<http://www.theopensourcerer.com/2009/07/21/getting-your-microsoft-tax-refunded-1010-for-amazon-uk/>of
the Microsoft license fee portion of the cost of a new Asus netbook PC
that came with Microsoft Windows XP. Lord details the steps that he took to
obtain a refund of 40.00 GBP for the cost of the EULA, complete with links
to click to request a refund. Lord's refund comes 10 years after the initial
flurry of activity surrounding EULA discounts, started by a blog post by
Australian computer consultant Geoffrey Bennett which appeared on Slashdot
on 18 January 1999<http://slashdot.org/story/99/01/18/1539214/Australian-Linux-user-gets-Windows-Refund?art_pos=34>.
That Slashdot story led to mainstream press coverage, such as stories
in CNN<http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9901/22/refunds.idg/index.html>,
the New York Times
Online<http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/99/01/biztech/articles/25computer-briefs.html>,
and the San Francisco
Chronicle<http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1999/01/28/BU74183.DTL>,
to name just a few <http://linuxmafia.com/refund/coverage.html>. The issue
quieted down for a few years, but has started to gain some momentum again in
recent years, with judges in
France<http://news.slashdot.org/story/08/05/19/0154224/French-Judge-Orders-Refund-For-Pre-Installed-XP?art_pos=4>,
Italy<http://yro.slashdot.org/story/07/10/27/1952257/Italian-Judge-Tells-HP-To-Refund-Pre-Installed-XP?art_pos=7>,
and Israel<http://yro.slashdot.org/story/08/12/03/1949230/Persistence-Pays-Off-With-Israels-First-Windows-Refund?art_pos=1>awarding
refunds. But if Lord's experience is any indication, getting a
refund through Amazon might be as easy as filling out a few forms, at least
in the UK, without any need to go to court."*

http://news.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/07/31/1215248

rrohbeck writes *"Today Amazon credited my card with $65.45. After ordering
an Eee PC 1005 HA<http://www.amazon.com/ASUS-1005HA-PU1X-BU-10-1-Inch-Blue-Netbook/dp/B002DYIXMS/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1249002539&sr=8-2>from
amazon.com, I asked them for a refund for the cost of Windows XP via the
'Contact us' form. At first they told me to cancel any items on my order
that I wanted a refund for, but after I explained that XP was pre-installed
on the machine they got it. They asked what the cost of the OS was, and I
answered that I had no idea but that Amazon UK refunded
?40.00<http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/07/23/1855211/Amazon-UK-Refunds-Windows-License-Fee-With-Little-Hassle>.
Within a few hours I got a response saying 'I've requested a refund of
$65.45 to your Visa card.' Somehow I doubt that Amazon will charge Asus or
even Microsoft, but maybe they will one day if more people do this. Oh, and
peeling off the 'Designed for Microsoft Windows XP' sticker is easy, too."*
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From grantbow at gmail.com  Tue Sep  1 17:55:37 2009
From: grantbow at gmail.com (Grant Bowman)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 17:55:37 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] mastering CDs in bulk for Software Freedom Day
In-Reply-To: <7a0d56080909010949i4fc57205se9ed21a75eb84568@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1246545427-1251492044-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-109951260-@bxe1008.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<5fb387c70908281447pfce3de0gb67e4959b8959244@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090828221751.GI18781@linuxmafia.com>
	<5fb387c70908301919j1a2aba34i2de3b720b9709168@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090831062611.GL22722@linuxmafia.com>
	<317e39f0908310041h4f354278y7004db3ff216f95e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090831090412.GN22722@linuxmafia.com>
	<317e39f0908312118i58cf1095had6f3b7902f4218d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090901092659.GT22722@linuxmafia.com>
	<7a0d56080909010949i4fc57205se9ed21a75eb84568@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <317e39f0909011755t6078c3f7o8a3798c5ed838c60@mail.gmail.com>

http://linuxmafia.com/pipermail/sf-lug/2009q3/thread.html

Rick Moen: 11
Larry Cafiero: 3
Sameer Verma: 3
Grant Bowman: 3 (including this one)
Everyone else: 7

You have "shared" your opinion over three times as much as anyone else
in this thread[1].  Allowing can be simply not "sharing," permitting
others to comment without surrounding their words with your own.

Grant


[1] "titles of mastering CDs in bulk for Software Freedom Day" and
"Software Freedom Day in general (was: mastering CDs in bulk for
Software Freedom Day)", subtracting one from Larry's count for his
pre-coffee error.



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Tue Sep  1 18:37:02 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 18:37:02 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] mastering CDs in bulk for Software Freedom Day
In-Reply-To: <317e39f0909011755t6078c3f7o8a3798c5ed838c60@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5fb387c70908281447pfce3de0gb67e4959b8959244@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090828221751.GI18781@linuxmafia.com>
	<5fb387c70908301919j1a2aba34i2de3b720b9709168@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090831062611.GL22722@linuxmafia.com>
	<317e39f0908310041h4f354278y7004db3ff216f95e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090831090412.GN22722@linuxmafia.com>
	<317e39f0908312118i58cf1095had6f3b7902f4218d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090901092659.GT22722@linuxmafia.com>
	<7a0d56080909010949i4fc57205se9ed21a75eb84568@mail.gmail.com>
	<317e39f0909011755t6078c3f7o8a3798c5ed838c60@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090902013702.GI22722@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Grant Bowman (grantbow at gmail.com):

> You have "shared" your opinion over three times as much as anyone else
> in this thread[1].  Allowing can be simply not "sharing," permitting
> others to comment without surrounding their words with your own.

A fairer reading would be that my words, given that I was almost
the sole person clearly voicing the "it's a poor use of a Linux user 
group's time to pay for and distribute Windows app CDs" viewpoint 
were surrounded by a barrage of the other viewpoint, about 12 of those
other messages to my 11.  

But the notion of words being "surrounded", i.e., beseiged, simply
because someone else dared to express a divergent view, is pretty
telling.  Pretty severely passive-aggressive, really.


For what it's worth, I'll remind you that I deliberately underwrite the
entire expense of this forum specifically so that people like you can
advocate pretty much whatever things you damned well please, including
things I think are a bad idea.  _And_ I deliberately make sure that,
nontheless, I'm just an ordinary subscriber with zero authority here, 
just the right to speak same as anyone else, to the extent that Jim and
LX_Rudis think that right to speak is appropriate.

So, without my active support, you would not be even able to be pushing
for what you want to happen, let alone attempting to complain about the
forum I provide out of my pocket.  You're welcome, by the way.




From grantbow at gmail.com  Wed Sep  2 03:01:58 2009
From: grantbow at gmail.com (Grant Bowman)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 03:01:58 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] mastering CDs in bulk for Software Freedom Day
In-Reply-To: <20090902013702.GI22722@linuxmafia.com>
References: <5fb387c70908281447pfce3de0gb67e4959b8959244@mail.gmail.com>
	<5fb387c70908301919j1a2aba34i2de3b720b9709168@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090831062611.GL22722@linuxmafia.com>
	<317e39f0908310041h4f354278y7004db3ff216f95e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090831090412.GN22722@linuxmafia.com>
	<317e39f0908312118i58cf1095had6f3b7902f4218d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090901092659.GT22722@linuxmafia.com>
	<7a0d56080909010949i4fc57205se9ed21a75eb84568@mail.gmail.com>
	<317e39f0909011755t6078c3f7o8a3798c5ed838c60@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090902013702.GI22722@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <317e39f0909020301r1727f22dyc1c7165b1d850456@mail.gmail.com>

This has gotten way out of hand.  After all, we are all on the same
side, trying to create progress for open source software in both
absolute and relative, effectively leveraged ways.

The "barrage" included Larry (three msgs), Christian (two msgs) and
Jim (two messages) who were NOT advocating distributing Windows discs.
 You were not "almost the sole person" nor is the sf-lug.org in any
danger of becoming a Windows user group.

I am one of the people (among many) in the Bay Area that knows of your
various, ongoing, active involvements with (only a sample listing)
linuxmafia.com (including opening your own home for Cabal),
sf-lug.org, svlug.org, berkeleylug.com, dvlug.org (which you host for
Robert Wall and I) and there are of course other activities, public
and private, that I am not aware of.  Many people have benefited
because of the work you do and the money you spend out of your pocket.
 I am one of them.  Acknowledgement from time to time of your generous
contributions are well earned and deserved.  Perhaps this sentiment is
not voiced often enough.  I am very sorry you felt it necessary to
bring it up here at least in part if not entirely provoked by my
comments.

Thank you very much for your efforts!

Grant



From jim at well.com  Wed Sep  2 08:17:41 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 08:17:41 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [JOB POSTING] operations person, San Francisco,
	$75K to 100K
Message-ID: <1251904661.8378.16.camel@jim-laptop>


My employer, spinn3r.com, is hiring a new operations person 
to work with me, Our office is in SOMA, near 2nd and Howard. 
Pay range is from $75k to as high as $110k for the right 
person.

My boss (Kevin Burton) just suggested I should post it to 
SF-LUG.

The ad is on craigslist here: 
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/eng/1351882237.html

We run Debian on all of our servers, and while our app is 
in Java, the operations stuff is a mix of Python and Bash 
(moving toward more Python). MySQL experience is desired but 
not completely necessary.

So, please pass this on to anyone you think might be 
interested.





From jim at well.com  Wed Sep  2 08:46:11 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 08:46:11 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [JOB POSTING] Linux/Unix system administrator,
	sf-bay peninsula, $100k to $110k
Message-ID: <1251906371.8378.30.camel@jim-laptop>


We have openings for Linux/Unix system administrators in the South
Bay/Peninsula: Cupertino, Redwood City, and Palo Alto. They are in the
$100K-$110K range. 

Astreya Infrastructure Services has multiple projects available for
seasoned Linux/Unix Administrators. Ideal candidates will have 5+ yrs
experience in enterprise environments. You'll get to do a mix of
maintenance, systems installations, and configurations as well as
providing input on architecture. 

Your knowledge of Linux/Unix should include LAMP Stack and Apache. MySql
would be a plus. Most importantly, you believe in systems administration
automation and you have demonstrable familiarly with various systems
monitoring tools. Basic shell scripting knowledge a must - Great PERL
skills are a strong plus! Long experience teaches us that our clients
are happiest with easy, communicative people and, in turn, reward them
with the most interesting work. 

That said, a winning personality won't get you past our intensive
screening and the customers technical due diligence. You'll need to be a
problem solver and an exceptional troubleshooter - expertise in design &
implementation is helpful as well. Experience working with large scale
production websites also strongly desired. 

When you join Astreya's Infrastructure Systems organization you become
part of an elite turkey-free team of systems and network engineers who
prefer the variety of assignment based work. All Astreya team members
are regular employees with good benefits including paid time off. You'll
also get all the technical and interpersonal support and problem solving
you need to be happily productive.

If you qualify it's as good as it gets in IT infrastructure work. 

recruiting at astreya.com.





From rick at linuxmafia.com  Wed Sep  2 09:53:23 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 09:53:23 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] mastering CDs in bulk for Software Freedom Day
In-Reply-To: <317e39f0909020301r1727f22dyc1c7165b1d850456@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5fb387c70908301919j1a2aba34i2de3b720b9709168@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090831062611.GL22722@linuxmafia.com>
	<317e39f0908310041h4f354278y7004db3ff216f95e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090831090412.GN22722@linuxmafia.com>
	<317e39f0908312118i58cf1095had6f3b7902f4218d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090901092659.GT22722@linuxmafia.com>
	<7a0d56080909010949i4fc57205se9ed21a75eb84568@mail.gmail.com>
	<317e39f0909011755t6078c3f7o8a3798c5ed838c60@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090902013702.GI22722@linuxmafia.com>
	<317e39f0909020301r1727f22dyc1c7165b1d850456@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090902165323.GJ22722@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Grant Bowman (grantbow at gmail.com):

> This has gotten way out of hand.  After all, we are all on the same
> side, trying to create progress for open source software in both
> absolute and relative, effectively leveraged ways.

Of course.  No offence taken on my part.  (You seem a bit upset. 
I'm sorry to see that.)

As I've said all along, I wish those wishing to underwrite burning
MS-Windows app CDs and spend time getting them out to users luck, and
hope they get the results they seek.  Even while thinking the
justifications have been illogical and out of touch with reality, I 
still salute your intentions and wish you the best.

>  You were not "almost the sole person" nor is the sf-lug.org in any
> danger of becoming a Windows user group.

Sorry to have to contradict yet again, but by any reasonable metric I
_was_ almost the sole person debunking the peculiar reasons cited (a
fact Larry commented on) -- and, solely since you (not I) brought the
matter up, becoming a distributor of MS-Windows software would be, IMO,
a severely inappropriate activity for SF-LUG.  (Nothing objectionable
about you, Sameer, and whoever else doing it, though.)

> Acknowledgement from time to time of your generous contributions are
> well earned and deserved.  Perhaps this sentiment is not voiced often
> enough.  

You seem to have utterly ignored my point, so I'll state it again.  I
wasn't asking to be thanked.  I didn't do so before, and am not now.
(That would, among other things, be really tacky.)  That was completely
irrelevant to what I said.

What I said was:  It was damned peculiar -- and, actually, bitingly ironic
-- for you to bitch, on this forum, that I'm somehow preventing (oddly
unnamed) other people from expressing disagreement with what I say:
I'm the guy who (gladly) makes it possible for this entire forum
to exist.  You and other people trying to gallivant over to Microsoft
land are able to advocate that activity because I built, pay for, and
maintain the joint.  Thus, to make crystal clear the point you seem to
have not understood a moment ago:  I'm not only nowhere dissuading or
preventing people from posting views contrary to mine, but actually
_enable_ and pay for their doing so.  

Get it?

> I am very sorry you felt it necessary to bring it up here at least in
> part if not entirely provoked by my comments.

_I'm_ very sorry you went so far out of your way to completely ignore my
point -- and instead reacted as if I were begging for applause.  Which
is not my style, and has nothing at all to do with what I said.




From robertlikesturtles at gmail.com  Wed Sep  2 10:55:51 2009
From: robertlikesturtles at gmail.com (Robert Wall)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 10:55:51 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] mastering CDs in bulk for Software Freedom Day
In-Reply-To: <317e39f0909020301r1727f22dyc1c7165b1d850456@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5fb387c70908281447pfce3de0gb67e4959b8959244@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090831062611.GL22722@linuxmafia.com>
	<317e39f0908310041h4f354278y7004db3ff216f95e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090831090412.GN22722@linuxmafia.com>
	<317e39f0908312118i58cf1095had6f3b7902f4218d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090901092659.GT22722@linuxmafia.com>
	<7a0d56080909010949i4fc57205se9ed21a75eb84568@mail.gmail.com>
	<317e39f0909011755t6078c3f7o8a3798c5ed838c60@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090902013702.GI22722@linuxmafia.com>
	<317e39f0909020301r1727f22dyc1c7165b1d850456@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3d5b9fae0909021055r2dc29b6cu63472b2947568c5c@mail.gmail.com>

Interesting discussion :)

On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 3:01 AM, Grant Bowman<grantbow at gmail.com> wrote:
> Robert Wall

... who, for what it's worth, is with Rick on this one.

I've handed out OpenOffice.org CDs with Windows and OS X [1] binaries
to high school students and various other people for a while now, and
have pushed Firefox when I can. Even when I explain the topic of free
software and open source to these users, they express little to no
interest in switching to Linux. Personally, I feel OpenOffice.org is
important to tide the spread of .docx and other similar crap, and
Firefox adoption makes designing websites easier and more
standardized, hence me distributing them [2]. However, the argument
that "use of open source on [non-free operating system] increases the
chance that users will switch to [free operating system]" isn't true
in my experience.

On the other hand, I've been hearing recently that some students in my
city are using Ubuntu LiveCDs to bypass Windows' filesystem security
so they can copy over (non-free) games and play them on Windows.
Unfortunately, that's only led to a bunch of teachers and
administrative staff associating Ubuntu users with rule-breaking
people...

[1] Which, by the way, is just as bad as Windows, despite its somewhat
free heritage, because of Apple Computer's distinctly proprietary
attitude.
[2] personally. I agree it's outside of the scope of LUGs to do so.

-- 
Robert Wall <robertlikesturtles at gmail.com>
OpenPGP key: 0x0CBC1491 | see http://rww.name/rsaswitch.txt
Webpage: http://rww.name/



From pewterbot9 at gmail.com  Wed Sep  2 21:25:39 2009
From: pewterbot9 at gmail.com (Pewter Bot)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 21:25:39 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] mastering CDs in bulk for Software Freedom Day
Message-ID: <a86954420909022125v61ec9050i26560c5478d8a731@mail.gmail.com>

\^/1~cl()vv5 15  @ |=@5(157 3~73292153. '|\|M|=|= 5 at 1cl.

-- 
7_3|<3 |<2@#|1~



From tom at greenleaftech.net  Fri Sep  4 09:33:10 2009
From: tom at greenleaftech.net (Tom Haddon)
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 09:33:10 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] External Hard Drive
Message-ID: <1252081991.23783.83.camel@hurlyburly>

Hi Folks,

I'm moving to the UK next weekend, and have a 300G external hard drive
(currently blank ext3) up for grabs. If anyone's interested in having
it, they can pick up from me today in the sunset (29th and Taraval) or
next week from Duboce near Church.

Let me know and we can figure out the details. First come first served,
no cost.

Cheers, Tom




From tom at greenleaftech.net  Fri Sep  4 10:28:34 2009
From: tom at greenleaftech.net (Tom Haddon)
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 10:28:34 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] External Hard Drive
In-Reply-To: <1252081991.23783.83.camel@hurlyburly>
References: <1252081991.23783.83.camel@hurlyburly>
Message-ID: <1252085314.23783.93.camel@hurlyburly>

On Fri, 2009-09-04 at 09:33 -0700, Tom Haddon wrote:
> Hi Folks,
> 
> I'm moving to the UK next weekend, and have a 300G external hard drive
> (currently blank ext3) up for grabs. If anyone's interested in having
> it, they can pick up from me today in the sunset (29th and Taraval) or
> next week from Duboce near Church.
> 
> Let me know and we can figure out the details. First come first served,
> no cost.

This has been claimed, btw. 

Thanks, Tom

> 
> Cheers, Tom




From jim at well.com  Sat Sep  5 09:49:33 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 2009 09:49:33 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] sf-lug meets this sunday, 20090906,
	from 11 AM to 1 PM at cafe	enchante
Message-ID: <1252169373.6468.7.camel@jim-laptop>


   sf-lug meets this sunday, 20090906, from 11 AM to 
1 PM (or so) at the cafe enchante on geary blvd at 
26th ave in san francisco. 
   there will be some No Starch Press books for give 
aways along with linux CDs, thanks to grant bowman. 





From david at sterryit.com  Sat Sep  5 12:41:46 2009
From: david at sterryit.com (David Sterry)
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 2009 12:41:46 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Software Freedom Day at Best Buy
In-Reply-To: <a86954420909022125v61ec9050i26560c5478d8a731@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a86954420909022125v61ec9050i26560c5478d8a731@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AA2BEFA.2040600@sterryit.com>

Microsoft has started to train Best Buy associates on how to convince
people that Windows 7 is a better choice than GNU/Linux on netbooks. If
Microsoft thinks Best Buy is a worthy battleground, perhaps we should
engage them there for SFD. I'm thinking of going to a local Best Buy for
SFD and passing out flyers and CDs recommending people try GNU/Linux on
laptops before they buy.

gNewSense would be my OS of choice and if CDs are to be handed out,
professional pressing is a must. Has anyone committed to pressing CDs? I
will throw in $100 for an order of gNewSense CDs which will not only
show GNU/Linux but will also make it known that many laptops today come
with hardware that is not supported by a fully free operating system. If
anyone else is interested in doing the same, I'm trying to organize for
the Best Buy in San Bruno, San Carlos, and/or East Palo Alto.

Email me offlist ( david at trygnulinux.com ) if you'd be interested in
going to one or more of the above for a 3 hour shift. I'm thinking it
would be great to have 2 people at whichever location(s) we choose from
10-1 and 1-4.



From einfeldt at gmail.com  Sat Sep  5 17:14:10 2009
From: einfeldt at gmail.com (Christian Einfeldt)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2009 17:14:10 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Software Freedom Day at Best Buy
In-Reply-To: <4AA2BEFA.2040600@sterryit.com>
References: <a86954420909022125v61ec9050i26560c5478d8a731@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AA2BEFA.2040600@sterryit.com>
Message-ID: <4b5781040909051714h4a3fa333ya1cdd0c421e5073f@mail.gmail.com>

hi,


> If
> Microsoft thinks Best Buy is a worthy battleground, perhaps we should
> engage them there for SFD.


This is a wonderful idea, but I am not going to be able to participate
because I believe we will be escorted off of the premises.

I don't want to throw cold water on your idea, but in my gut I would really
really love to see it succeed.  For years now, I have carried liveCDs with
me wherever I go, looking for a chance to give them away.  As we speak, I
have in my coat pocket some Fedora 11 liveCDs that I got from Larry Cafiero
by way of Grant Bowman, as well as some Ubuntu Jaunty liveCDs.  I have
engaged people in planes, trains, buses, and at Muni stops.  And yes, I have
stood outside of Nordstrom's in SF and talked to people at the Powell street
cable car turnaround about Linux.

I no longer do any of the above, because my success rate was so low.

Instead, I spend my time supporting two SF schools with FOSS.  There, I only
have to spend time making one pitch to one person, the principal, and boom,
I have access to a whole school of teachers and kids, and our team them gets
to place working, properly maintained Linux machines in front of teachers
who have been given the green light by their principal to use these
machines.  In addition, we get access to be able to place Linux machines in
students' homes, where the machines then get used for years.

My concern is that most end users don't understand that an OS has social
implications, and so they have not been prepped to hear the message of
Richard Stallman's four freedoms.  They have come to Best Buy thinking that
they are going to buy a household appliance, when in reality they are buying
a printing press and are committing themselves to a non-Free standard.

But IMHO, you need to first prep the audience to be receptive to your
message, and it has been my experience from 8 years of doing outreach that
people at Best Buy are there for a simple in-and-out transaction, not a
political outreach session.  I hope I am wrong, and I hope that your session
is very success.

I still carry liveCDs on the off-chance that someone will _ask_ me about
Linux.  For example, Grant Bowman and I were in a restaurant recently
talking about Linux.  The waiter came up to us and asked us about Ubuntu.
Grant had just given me some liveCDs, and suggested that I give one to the
waiter.  I asked the waiter if he would like a liveCD, and he said yes.  He
had been an computer science student in India, and had tried Linux in 2004,
and wanted to experiment with it again.

Good luck with your Best Buy buzz!  I hope you find lots of interested
users!
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From jim at well.com  Sun Sep  6 09:55:14 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 2009 09:55:14 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Open source projects and PR
In-Reply-To: <5fb387c70909011127yc369fd1i9f9bd8246d953a2b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5fb387c70909011127yc369fd1i9f9bd8246d953a2b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1252256114.6363.81.camel@jim-laptop>


Here's a link to part 2 of the article sameer sent: 
http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/how-land-spot-spotlight-part-ii 


On Tue, 2009-09-01 at 11:27 -0700, Sameer Verma wrote:
> This came to me from one of the sugarlabs.org list. Interesting read.
> http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/how-land-spot-spotlight-part-i
> 
> Sameer





From jim at well.com  Sun Sep  6 10:20:26 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 2009 10:20:26 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] good article on Python programming
Message-ID: <1252257626.6363.90.camel@jim-laptop>



   Here's a good overview Eric Raymond wrote of his 
experience in learning Python 

http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/3882 

   Eric is an experienced programmer; his article 
really touches the nature of "Pythonic". 





From jim at well.com  Sun Sep  6 10:23:08 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 2009 10:23:08 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] S. F. politics and software policies
Message-ID: <1252257788.6363.94.camel@jim-laptop>


           is there something about San Francisco politics that's 
        not quite fair or open? the snippet below discusses new 
        traffic management technology available only to windows-based 
        cell phones. note the S.F. schools and some other public 
        institutions seem windows-bound, not only internally, but 
        wrt public access. of course, it might be that the other 
        institutions involved have done the filtering, per below: 
        
        from
        http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-cover6-2009sep06,0,6494829.story?page=2&track=rss 
        
        [A] major effort is dubbed IntelliDrive. Funded by the federal
        government and major automobile manufacturers, and overseen by 
        the U.S. Department of Transportation, the program will begin 
        tests of a traffic warning system in San Francisco next month.
        
        Participating drivers will receive signals on their cellphones 
        alerting them to bottlenecks approximately 60 seconds ahead. 
        The phone will say, "Slow traffic ahead" through its speaker 
        phone or headset, and a message will appear on its screen.
        
        The operators of the program will use traffic information from 
        several existing sources, including Caltrans, and crunch it to 
        provide the real-time warnings. Only cellphones using... 
        
                Windows-based operating <----  systems 
        
        ...will be able to download the software to take part in the 
        test--which leaves out iPhones and BlackBerrys, among others.
        
        A video showing how it works is at
        www.intellidriveusa.org/library/videos.php 
        The ultimate goal is a dashboard warning system, fed by sensors 
        in cars and along highways, to alert drivers of potential 
        hazards all around them, including blind spots.
        





From vpolitewebsiteguy at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  6 10:56:46 2009
From: vpolitewebsiteguy at yahoo.com (vincent polite)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 10:56:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sf-lug]  S. F. politics and software policies
In-Reply-To: <1252257788.6363.94.camel@jim-laptop>
References: <1252257788.6363.94.camel@jim-laptop>
Message-ID: <404872.64618.qm@web82806.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



Well, it is a Federal program, not SF politics. Do you know how many tests are in this program?




________________________________
From: jim <jim at well.com>
To: sf-lug <sf-lug at linuxmafia.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 6, 2009 10:23:08 AM
Subject: [sf-lug] S. F. politics and software policies


           is there something about San Francisco politics that's 
        not quite fair or open? the snippet below discusses new 
        traffic management technology available only to windows-based 
        cell phones. note the S.F. schools and some other public 
        institutions seem windows-bound, not only internally, but 
        wrt public access. of course, it might be that the other 
        institutions involved have done the filtering, per below: 
        
        from
        http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-cover6-2009sep06,0,6494829.story?page=2&track=rss 
        
        [A] major effort is dubbed IntelliDrive. Funded by the federal
        government and major automobile manufacturers, and overseen by 
        the U.S. Department of Transportation, the program will begin 
        tests of a traffic warning system in San Francisco next month.
        
        Participating drivers will receive signals on their cellphones 
        alerting them to bottlenecks approximately 60 seconds ahead. 
        The phone will say, "Slow traffic ahead" through its speaker 
        phone or headset, and a message will appear on its screen.
        
        The operators of the program will use traffic information from 
        several existing sources, including Caltrans, and crunch it to 
        provide the real-time warnings. Only cellphones using... 
        
                Windows-based operating <----  systems 
        
        ...will be able to download the software to take part in the 
        test--which leaves out iPhones and BlackBerrys, among others.
        
        A video showing how it works is at
        www.intellidriveusa.org/library/videos.php 
        The ultimate goal is a dashboard warning system, fed by sensors 
        in cars and along highways, to alert drivers of potential 
        hazards all around them, including blind spots.
        



_______________________________________________
sf-lug mailing list
sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
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From jim at well.com  Sun Sep  6 11:06:05 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 2009 11:06:05 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] S. F. politics and software policies
In-Reply-To: <404872.64618.qm@web82806.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <1252257788.6363.94.camel@jim-laptop>
	<404872.64618.qm@web82806.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1252260365.6363.101.camel@jim-laptop>


On Sun, 2009-09-06 at 10:56 -0700, vincent polite wrote:
> 
> Well, it is a Federal program, not SF politics. Do you know how many
> tests are in this program?
JS: nope, just what's in the article. it resonates 
with local stories of windows-centric policies, which 
seems an area about which we should be aware. best i 
could do in short notice. 

> 
> ______________________________________________________________________
> From: jim <jim at well.com>
> To: sf-lug <sf-lug at linuxmafia.com>
> Sent: Sunday, September 6, 2009 10:23:08 AM
> Subject: [sf-lug] S. F. politics and software policies
> 
> 
>           is there something about San Francisco politics that's 
>         not quite fair or open? the snippet below discusses new 
>         traffic management technology available only to windows-based 
>         cell phones. note the S.F. schools and some other public 
>         institutions seem windows-bound, not only internally, but 
>         wrt public access. of course, it might be that the other 
>         institutions involved have done the filtering, per below: 
>         
>         from
> 
> http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-cover6-2009sep06,0,6494829.story?page=2&track=rss 
>         
>         [A] major effort is dubbed IntelliDrive. Funded by the federal
>         government and major automobile manufacturers, and overseen
> by 
>         the U.S. Department of Transportation, the program will begin 
>         tests of a traffic warning system in San Francisco next month.
>         
>         Participating drivers will receive signals on their
> cellphones 
>         alerting them to bottlenecks approximately 60 seconds ahead. 
>         The phone will say, "Slow traffic ahead" through its speaker 
>         phone or headset, and a message will appear on its screen.
>         
>         The operators of the program will use traffic information
> from 
>         several existing sources, including Caltrans, and crunch it
> to 
>         provide the real-time warnings. Only cellphones using... 
>         
>                 Windows-based operating <----  systems 
>         
>         ...will be able to download the software to take part in the 
>         test--which leaves out iPhones and BlackBerrys, among others.
>         
>         A video showing how it works is at
>         www.intellidriveusa.org/library/videos.php 
>         The ultimate goal is a dashboard warning system, fed by
> sensors 
>         in cars and along highways, to alert drivers of potential 
>         hazards all around them, including blind spots.
>         
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
> 
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug




From jane_ikari at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  6 12:10:18 2009
From: jane_ikari at yahoo.com (bruce coston)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 12:10:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sf-lug] handing out cd's
In-Reply-To: <mailman.375.1252260378.1647.sf-lug@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <946678.14485.qm@web65513.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Elive gets all my hardware , I suspect it would have more effect than a more doctrinaire distribution . ... I'm thinking of going to a local Best Buy for
SFD and passing out flyers and CDs recommending people try GNU/Linux on
laptops before they buy.

gNewSense would be my OS of choice and if CDs are to be handed out,
professional pressing is a must. Has anyone committed to pressing CDs? I
will throw in $100 for an order of gNewSense CDs which will not only
show GNU/Linux but will also make it known that many laptops today come
with hardware that is not supported by a fully free operating system. If
anyone else is interested in doing the same, I'm trying to organize for
the Best Buy in San Bruno, San Carlos, and/or East Palo Alto.

Email me offlist ( david at trygnulinux.com ) if you'd be interested in
going to one or more of the above for a 3 hour shift. I'm thinking it
would be great to have 2 people at whichever location(s) we choose from 10-1 and 1-4....



      
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From dssstrkl at gmail.com  Sun Sep  6 12:56:13 2009
From: dssstrkl at gmail.com (Paul Ward)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 12:56:13 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] S. F. politics and software policies
In-Reply-To: <1252257788.6363.94.camel@jim-laptop>
References: <1252257788.6363.94.camel@jim-laptop>
Message-ID: <8D63116F-F202-4CBB-8759-0CAE2FBAA219@gmail.com>

It seems to me that Google basically beat them to the punch already,  
since Google Maps uses GPS info from cellphones combined with CalTrans  
(and other similar government agencies outside of CA) info to show  
fairly detailed traffic info. I imagine that if/when CalTrans starts  
publishing IntelliDrive info, Google would wrap that into Maps. Plus,  
after looking at the website, this whole thing seems typically over- 
thought and over-engineered and probably won't come to anything big  
any time soon.

Personally, I don't need another thing to plug into my car, I just  
want access to the data so I can wrap it into what I'm already using.


On Sep 6, 2009, at 10:23 AM, jim wrote:

>
>           is there something about San Francisco politics that's
>        not quite fair or open? the snippet below discusses new
>        traffic management technology available only to windows-based
>        cell phones. note the S.F. schools and some other public
>        institutions seem windows-bound, not only internally, but
>        wrt public access. of course, it might be that the other
>        institutions involved have done the filtering, per below:
>
>        from
>        http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-cover6-2009sep06,0,6494829.story?page=2&track=rss
>
>        [A] major effort is dubbed IntelliDrive. Funded by the federal
>        government and major automobile manufacturers, and overseen by
>        the U.S. Department of Transportation, the program will begin
>        tests of a traffic warning system in San Francisco next month.
>
>        Participating drivers will receive signals on their cellphones
>        alerting them to bottlenecks approximately 60 seconds ahead.
>        The phone will say, "Slow traffic ahead" through its speaker
>        phone or headset, and a message will appear on its screen.
>
>        The operators of the program will use traffic information from
>        several existing sources, including Caltrans, and crunch it to
>        provide the real-time warnings. Only cellphones using...
>
>                Windows-based operating <----  systems
>
>        ...will be able to download the software to take part in the
>        test--which leaves out iPhones and BlackBerrys, among others.
>
>        A video showing how it works is at
>        www.intellidriveusa.org/library/videos.php
>        The ultimate goal is a dashboard warning system, fed by sensors
>        in cars and along highways, to alert drivers of potential
>        hazards all around them, including blind spots.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug

Paul Ward
dssstrkl at gmail.com






From a_kleider at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  6 15:56:31 2009
From: a_kleider at yahoo.com (Alex Kleider)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 15:56:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sf-lug] eeebuntu-3.0-standard on Eee Asus
Message-ID: <272497.77780.qm@web110609.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

I've discovered a couple of quirks that those on the list that have recently bought the Eee and installed eeebuntu may have already figured out but they may not have.

A trivial thing was that the applets on the right side of the upper bar seemed to work but weren't visible! This problem want away with the first reboot.

Of greater significance is that Synaptic and apt-get don't seem to work until one first does an 
sudo apt-get update
after that, but not before, I was able to 
sudo apt-get install vim openssh-server
etc.

Thought some of you might find this useful.

alex



      



From tom at greenleaftech.net  Sun Sep  6 17:39:10 2009
From: tom at greenleaftech.net (Tom Haddon)
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 2009 17:39:10 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] A Few Free Things
Message-ID: <1252283950.3663.13.camel@zeetree>

Hi Folks,

Part two (and the final part) in my series entitled "free things I'm
giving away as I'm moving abroad" includes:

- Samsung ML-1710 Black and White Laser Printer (a little low on ink,
USB connection - included)
- Logitech computer speakers (not sure of the exact model, but has the
"sub-woofer" and two small, but nice sounding satellite speakers
- USB Keyboard and mouse (logitech, nothing fancy but in good condition)
- Belkin Surge Protector - 8 outlets, plus phone lines
- 4' (?) ethernet cable
- Two sprint mobile phones (approx 3 yrs old) and 1 landline phone -
wireless with base station.

I'm staying in the Lower Haight until I fly out on Saturday, so if you
can come pick up before then (during the day is ideal, as I work from
home) that'd be great. Just reply to me off list and let me know what
you'd like. You'd be doing me a big favor if you took it all, however :)

Cheers, Tom





From tom at greenleaftech.net  Sun Sep  6 18:11:45 2009
From: tom at greenleaftech.net (Tom Haddon)
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 2009 18:11:45 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] A Few Free Things
In-Reply-To: <1252283950.3663.13.camel@zeetree>
References: <1252283950.3663.13.camel@zeetree>
Message-ID: <1252285905.3663.18.camel@zeetree>

On Sun, 2009-09-06 at 17:39 -0700, Tom Haddon wrote:
> Hi Folks,

The items have been claimed.

Thanks! Tom

> Part two (and the final part) in my series entitled "free things I'm
> giving away as I'm moving abroad" includes:
> 
> - Samsung ML-1710 Black and White Laser Printer (a little low on ink,
> USB connection - included)
> - Logitech computer speakers (not sure of the exact model, but has the
> "sub-woofer" and two small, but nice sounding satellite speakers
> - USB Keyboard and mouse (logitech, nothing fancy but in good condition)
> - Belkin Surge Protector - 8 outlets, plus phone lines
> - 4' (?) ethernet cable
> - Two sprint mobile phones (approx 3 yrs old) and 1 landline phone -
> wireless with base station.
> 
> I'm staying in the Lower Haight until I fly out on Saturday, so if you
> can come pick up before then (during the day is ideal, as I work from
> home) that'd be great. Just reply to me off list and let me know what
> you'd like. You'd be doing me a big favor if you took it all, however :)
> 
> Cheers, Tom
> 





From bliss at sfo.com  Mon Sep  7 07:47:38 2009
From: bliss at sfo.com (Bobbie Sellers)
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2009 07:47:38 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [Fwd: from the Team Amiga ML Microsoft FUD of the year]
Message-ID: <4AA51D0A.7000601@sfo.com>

    Microsoft re-training salesmen by lying about Linux.

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	[TAML-WNT] Microsoft FUD of the year
Date: 	Mon, 07 Sep 2009 12:46:02 +0200 (CEST)
From: 	Odd H. Sandvik
Reply-To: 	taml at lists.worldnewstrust.com
To: 	taml at lists.worldnewstrust.com



	Check out the screenshots, dissing Linux:

http://quaoar.ww7.be/ms_fud_of_the_year/569458-microsoft-attack-linux-retail-level-probably.html


		--
		Odd H. Sandvik


	later
	Bobbie Sellers




From rick at linuxmafia.com  Tue Sep  8 13:14:51 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 13:14:51 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] S. F. politics and software policies
In-Reply-To: <1252257788.6363.94.camel@jim-laptop>
References: <1252257788.6363.94.camel@jim-laptop>
Message-ID: <20090908201451.GX22722@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting jim (jim at well.com):

>         Participating drivers will receive signals on their cellphones 
>         alerting them to bottlenecks approximately 60 seconds ahead. 
>         The phone will say, "Slow traffic ahead" through its speaker 
>         phone or headset, and a message will appear on its screen.
>         
>         The operators of the program will use traffic information from 
>         several existing sources, including Caltrans, and crunch it to 
>         provide the real-time warnings. Only cellphones using... 
>         
>                 Windows-based operating <----  systems 
>         
>         ...will be able to download the software to take part in the 
>         test--which leaves out iPhones and BlackBerrys, among others.

Begs the question of whether you'd want to run proprietary, binary-only
software from someone you have no reason to trust using root-equivalent 
authority on the same device where you have significant amounts of your
personal data including your address books and personal call data.

Most people seem to accept the "Trust us, run our code" model so readily
that they _complain_ when they can't participate.  IMO, seeking to allow
other environments besides "Windows-based operating systems" to suffer
the same security nightmare is solving the wrong problem.  

A better approach is to build the expectation that IntelliDrive data
should use a fully documented format using commodity protocols and that
there be freely available sample code, such that important aspects of
the service aren't hidden in manufacturers' secret sauces.  IEEE802.11p
/ DSRC seems compatible with open source, but my sense is that they're
playing proprietary games with other details including data formats.
See: http://www.intellidriveusa.org/about/overview.php




From rick at linuxmafia.com  Tue Sep  8 14:50:59 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 14:50:59 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Software Freedom Day at Best Buy
In-Reply-To: <4b5781040909051714h4a3fa333ya1cdd0c421e5073f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a86954420909022125v61ec9050i26560c5478d8a731@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AA2BEFA.2040600@sterryit.com>
	<4b5781040909051714h4a3fa333ya1cdd0c421e5073f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090908215059.GZ22722@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Christian Einfeldt (einfeldt at gmail.com):

[Best Buy:]

> This is a wonderful idea

Comment omitted.  ;->

> but I am not going to be able to participate because I believe we will
> be escorted off of the premises.

You are correct that a staffer would (almost certainly) quickly ask you
to leave, and probably management would call local police at the same
time.  If you did not leave immediately, you'd be put on notice that you
were trespassing and barred from those premises for some period
thereafter (in addition to being removed from them).

You could of course decamp to the sidewalk, at the edge of the property.




From larry.cafiero at gmail.com  Tue Sep  8 17:09:48 2009
From: larry.cafiero at gmail.com (Larry Cafiero)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 17:09:48 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Software Freedom Day at Best Buy
In-Reply-To: <20090908215059.GZ22722@linuxmafia.com>
References: <a86954420909022125v61ec9050i26560c5478d8a731@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AA2BEFA.2040600@sterryit.com>
	<4b5781040909051714h4a3fa333ya1cdd0c421e5073f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090908215059.GZ22722@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <7a0d56080909081709o49d5ac99rad41ea2f877098ce@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 2:50 PM, Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com> wrote:

>
>
> You could of course decamp to the sidewalk, at the edge of the property.


Hmmm. If memory serves me correctly, didn't a certain Mr. Moen and a wide
variety of conspirators do something along these lines at a Sunnyvale
Circuit City a couple of decades ago around either the Microsoft EULA or
giving the buyer a choice of which OS to run on their computer?

I really need to brush up on my Linux history . . . .
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From rick at linuxmafia.com  Tue Sep  8 17:41:12 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 17:41:12 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Software Freedom Day at Best Buy
In-Reply-To: <7a0d56080909081709o49d5ac99rad41ea2f877098ce@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a86954420909022125v61ec9050i26560c5478d8a731@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AA2BEFA.2040600@sterryit.com>
	<4b5781040909051714h4a3fa333ya1cdd0c421e5073f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090908215059.GZ22722@linuxmafia.com>
	<7a0d56080909081709o49d5ac99rad41ea2f877098ce@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090909004112.GB22722@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Larry Cafiero (larry.cafiero at gmail.com):

> Hmmm. If memory serves me correctly, didn't a certain Mr. Moen and a wide
> variety of conspirators do something along these lines at a Sunnyvale
> Circuit City a couple of decades ago around either the Microsoft EULA or
> giving the buyer a choice of which OS to run on their computer?

You're thinking of the event at the time of the Win98 launch
(midnight, June 24, 1998):  Fry's Electronics in Sunnyvale, and
CompUSA's then-location at El Camino Real & Lawrence Expressway, Santa
Clara.

It was styled "The Great Linux Revolt of 1998", and was good fun.  The
Fry's manager freaked out and was a jerk.  CompUSA was cool.  The latter
seemed to partly reflect the good attitude and manners of our folks.
http://www.svlug.org/events.php




From Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu  Thu Sep 10 07:32:50 2009
From: Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu (Michael Paoli)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 07:32:50 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] BALUG: Tu 2009-09-15 Christian Einfeldt on: Linux in
	schools: Help	yourself by helping the underdog
Message-ID: <20090910073250.14914gmt6mpdhd6o@webmail.rawbw.com>

BALUG: Tu 2009-09-15 Christian Einfeldt on: Linux in schools: Help  
yourself by helping the underdog

BALUG: Tu 2009-09-15 Christian Einfeldt on: Linux in schools:
        Help yourself by helping the underdog

Bay Area Linux User Group (BALUG)
Tuesday 6:30 P.M. 2009-09-15

Please RSVP if you're planning to come (see further below).

For our 2009-09-15 BALUG meeting, we're excited to present:

Christian Einfeldt on: Linux in schools:
Help yourself by helping the underdog
Schools and Linux should really fit together hand-in-hand.  Schools
need robust, low cost infrastructure, and the Linux community needs
more widespread adoption to avoid marginalization on the desktop.
Schools offer the potential to become channels for distribution and
socialization for Linux.  Christian Einfeldt is a community organizer
who has worked for more than 5 years to bring Linux to two local public
schools, and will draw on this experience to talk about what schools
need to go further with Linux, and how schools can help create greater
mindshare for Linux.

Christian Einfeldt has been using GNU-Linux in his law practice since
late 2000.  Einfeldt is a relatively simple end user who runs whichever
distro is favored by the guru helping him.  Currently, that means
regular old brown Ubuntu (GNOME), but in the past has included openSUSE
(KDE).  Einfeldt is also fond of Xubuntu, as it runs quite well and
installs easily on dead badgers and other odd ball legacy hardware that
he and others are adminning at two local school FOSS projects supported
by Bay Area GNUsters and Penguinistas.  You know who you are.

So, if you'd like to join us please RSVP:

           rsvp at balug.org

**Why RSVP??**

Well, don't worry we won't turn you away, but the RSVPs really help the
Four Seas Restaurant plan the meal and they help ensure that we'll be
able to eat upstairs in the private banquet room.

Meeting Details...

           6:30pm
           Tuesday, September 15th, 2009 2009-09-15

           Four Seas Restaurant http://www.fourseasr.com/
           731 Grant Ave.
           San Francisco, CA 94108
           Easy PARKING:
           Portsmouth Square Garage at 733 Kearny http://www.sfpsg.com/

Cost: The meetings are always free, but dinner is $13

Feedback on our publicity/announcements (e.g. contacts or lists where we
should get our information out that we're not presently reaching, or
things we should do differently): publicity-feedback at balug.org

http://www.balug.org/




From Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu  Fri Sep 11 04:36:18 2009
From: Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu (Michael Paoli)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 04:36:18 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] e.g.: mastering CDs in bulk for Software Freedom Day
In-Reply-To: <mailman.346.1251825531.1647.sf-lug@linuxmafia.com>
References: <mailman.346.1251825531.1647.sf-lug@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <20090911043618.405348wc1v9p4m4g@webmail.rawbw.com>

Well, many excellent points/"arguments"/suppositions have been made
regarding the "mastering CDs in bulk for Software Freedom Day" "thread"
and related, with much spirited and interesting debate.

A few points/arguments - to perhaps reiterate a bit ... and maybe
clarify?

Let's try a little Gedanken experiment (heck, easier and faster than
trying to gather lots of actual hard data - and may also be useful
nevertheless).  Let's suppose "we" (or someone, or whomever) gives away
a bunch of CDs (or DVD+-RW or USB sticks or installs or preloads it onto
systems or what have you) of software for, oh, Microsoft Windows or some
other non-Open Source Operating System (OS).  Now, let's just say,
theoretically, that what's loaded/added on there is a whole bunch of
highly useful Open Source software that gives users all the software
that they'd want on their computers that they'd otherwise go out and get
(e.g. purchase Microsoft Office) non-Open Source software (applications)
to place upon their computers.  Let's also suppose - at least
theoretically, that the Open Source stuff is so good and complete that
the users have no interest in adding any non-Open Source
software/applications atop their non-Open Source OS - and let's further
say they get rather to quite comfortable and happy with that.  Now let's
say it gets to be time for user to do a major upgrade or replacement of
their non-Open Source OS (e.g. buying new computer).  Let's further say
it's readily available and well known to the users, that they can
very easily get and install or have installed for free, a free (gratis)
Open Source OS that would be exceedingly compatible with all the
application software they've come to care about anyway (having
discovered all that great Open Source (and free as in gratis) software).
Or, ... they could alternatively, at such a time, spend a significant
amount (let's say $100.00 USD or more) to purchase non-Open Source
software to run the same Open Source applications.  And let's further
say, that things were completely - at least from the user perspective -
compatible, such that they'd see absolutely no reason to go and spend
the money for some non-Open Source OS, when they could even better (no
cost) get an Open Source OS that would serve their needs better from
the user's perspective (e.g. at that point about the only key difference
user would see and particularly notice would be cost of about $100.00
USD or more).  So, ... theoretically, let's say all that happens - in
such case, wouldn't users be quite likely to switch from non-Open
Source OS to Open Source OS? ... at least when it came to replacements
or major upgrades where they'd have to spend a fair bit if they wanted
to continue with a non-Open Source OS?

Anyway, that's the (or at least a) theory - would - at least eventually,
increase adoption of Open Source OSes.  "Of course" there are also at
least some counter-arguments.  E.g. gee, wouldn't having all that great
Open Source software on non-Open Source OS potentially significantly
delay user's exodus from non-Open Source OS by quite significantly
reducing the pain and frustration (and cost) users experience on
non-Open Source OS?  Perhaps.

In any case, getting a fair bit closer to reality, how much great Open
Source software that could be provided and would quite effectively
replace non-Open Source software that users would otherwise generally
use on their non-Open Source OS is, well, ... sure, there's lots of
great Open Source software, but not so much as to be very much a
transparent drop-in replacement for all the non-Open Source software
users are typically using (though Open Source software can provide quite
a bit of that - and often in not-quite-so-compatible, yet often
generally superior ways).  Of course a whole other debate would be how
compatible such Open Source software should be developed to be (e.g.
would one want to develop highly accurate emulation of all the
mis-features, bugs, etc. in the non-Open Source software?).

So, ... anyway, rather to quite debatable how useful it is to provide
users Open Source software for non-Open Source OSes in an effort to
attempt to get them to migrate off of non-Open Source OSes ... or even
if that is useful at all.

I'm sure opinions do vary a lot ... I think I'd argue it's at least
somewhat useful, ... but how useful, and how relatively useful or not to
put resources there as opposed to other areas (e.g. promoting and/or
generally making available and helping folks with Open Source OSes) -
well, ... that's a debate I think I'll avoid stepping into (has been
debated pretty well already anyway).

Another (semi-?)related point is just what folks want to do with their
resources (time, cost) in providing for free (gratis) software (be it
Open Source OSes, or Open Source applications for non-Open Source OSes).
Especially when talking volunteer resources, folks will tend to want to
do what they're good at, familiar with, enjoy, etc., and what they think
will be useful, or more/most useful.  That may, or may not correlate to
some particular "objective" - particularly if such "objective" might be
something other than what they themselves may be personally aiming for
or considering to be most/more important.  Might also depend quite a bit
on their chosen target "audience" - e.g. users showing up at LUG
meetings and Linux installfests would be a rather different target
audience, than, say, a certain collection of users (e.g. some particular
school or business or institution) that requires all their users have
some certain non-Open Source OS installed on their computers.

references:
"mastering CDs in bulk for Software Freedom Day" "thread" and
similar/related on:
http://linuxmafia.com/pipermail/sf-lug/2009q3/date.html




From Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu  Fri Sep 11 06:03:49 2009
From: Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu (Michael Paoli)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 06:03:49 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Writing styles, volunteers, "solutions", and all that jazz
	; -)
Message-ID: <20090911060349.69475al6fgqgqvoc@webmail.rawbw.com>

Without getting into referencing specific posts, but commenting upon
some points made/raised and/or other items/areas they reminded me of ...

Anyway, just my "take"/perspective on it ... not necessarily 100%
accurate, nor even necessarily particularly close to that.

Email isn't particular rich communication medium, particularly
contextually.  I.e. it's very easy for things to be misinterpreted or
interpreted quite differently than intended.  It tends to lack all or
most all of the verbal cues (e.g. intonation), body language, etc. -
it's "just" (or almost entirely) "flat" words and text.  Okay, yeah,
there's emoticons (e.g. smilies) and all that ... but that doesn't
really help all that much - and they too can also be misinterpreted.
So, ...  it's very easy for folks to take things in email in ways other
than intended.  May depend on audience and other factors, but it can be
rather to quite useful to keep this in mind with email, and to perhaps
critically review one's writing before sending that email.  Also useful
to keep this in mind when reading emails - apply (or at least allow
for) most loose/favorable interpretation.  I forget the precise
detail/statistic, but I think it goes along the lines that readers of
email will generally tend to apply the most negative/critical
interpretations/connotations to email they read, particularly where
there's ambiguity or wiggle room in possible interpretations.  (Not sure
of the details, but I think that has something to do with human nature
and the "flatness" of email communication.)  Anyway, probably useful to
keep those points in mind, when both writing, and reading, emails.


Efficiencies :-)  Various folks (and certainly not excluding myself) are
more - and less - good/efficient/etc. at various stuff.  E.g. we've got
our talents and stuff we do rather to quite well ... and other stuff
that, well, ... we're not quite as adept at (or can more-or-less manage
- but only with a lot more time and effort).  So, ... there are
tradeoffs to be had there - e.g. getting rather to quite good
information out there, succinctly, efficiently, and quickly, vs., oh,
say, getting it out there much more carefully (so as to avoid
potentially being misconstrued) at the "expense" (with fixed/limited
resources) of then only getting much less information out there, or
maybe in some/many cases, not even getting that (quite) useful
information out there at all.  Anyway, ... points to be considered when
reading - and writing - emails. :-)  [An aside: certainly an area I've
dealt with and very much continue to deal with - e.g. I've certainly had
folks (e.g. some managers) comment upon my writing styles ... and some
of it much good advice ... and at least for me it continues to be some
form of tradeoff - e.g. spending 3 to 10 times as long to get that email
edited to be "just right" (or nearly so) before sending it out vs.,
well, just "dumping" the relevant information out there rather to quite
quickly (and then being able to move on to the no shortage of other
things to be worked upon).  Much of the "balance" in that tradeoff I'll
often adjust based upon factors such as target audience, criticality of
getting the information out quickly, etc. - e.g. a guestimated "best"
cost/benefit tradeoff for the time and circumstances.]

Volunteers :-) ... and as folks here (and similar forums) are generally
volunteering their time/resources, folks may worry less about "pesky
little details" of precisely how they write/format their emails, how it
might be interpreted, etc.  It's not generally like some boss is gonna
crack down on them or fire them if they're not highly enamored with
some writing style they might see or opinion they may see espoused.

Solutions :-)  A style/edict/attitude I've occasionally seen with some
managers.  If one raises an issue/objection/problem, one must provide
the solution - or at bare minimum a suggested means of improvement.
Now, ... such an approach can be problematic and/or backfire (e.g. folks
don't raise issues/problems because they don't want the added burden of
having to solve them).  But on the other hand, it may be useful to at
least keep in mind, when raising objections, etc., if one can reasonably
suggest a solution, improvement, or better way to do something, it may
be rather to quite useful to also provide such information.  Might not
always be feasible (e.g. there may not be or yet be a good solution, or
there may be too many to easily start to mention them, or solution may
be self-evident (e.g. don't do what causes the problem)), ... but in any
case, where such "solution"(s), etc., can be reasonably/easily provided,
may be quite useful, appropriate, and beneficial to provide such
information (or pointers to such, etc.).

Anyway, ... just a few random thoughts I thought most all of us could
potentially benefit from if we keep them in mind.

This public service announcement has been brought to you by ...

We now return to our regularly scheduled list, already in progress. :-)




From jim at well.com  Fri Sep 11 08:04:40 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 08:04:40 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [JOB POSTING] Linux SysAdm Redwood City $40 to $50 per hour
Message-ID: <1252681480.6588.76.camel@jim-laptop>



Red Hat SysAdmin w/ Cluster & Virtualization Experience sought for 
large gaming client in Redwood City. 6 month contract.  Salary 
around 40-50/hr.


The requirements are as follows:
- 7 years Linux admin experience
- 5 years RHEL admin experience
- 5 years RPM management and admin experience
- 3 years working with MySQL
- Experience with Clusters, live and in production
- Experience with Virtualization (not just VMWare)
- Sound understanding of web services and related technologies (HTTP,
REST, XML, JSON, etc)
- Experience with Linux web servers (Apache2, nginx, lighttpd, etc)
- Experience with monitoring systems and components (nagios, cacti, etc)

Really nice to haves:
- Experience with Erlang
- Experience with Ruby on Rails
- Exposure to Jabber/XMPP
- Exposure to distributed / grid computing
- ejabberd administration and configuration
- Exposure to Google's Protocol Buffers
- Experience with second and third tier services and components like
memcached (or like systems), search applications (lucene, xapian,
sphinx, etc), etc.
- Exposure to scripting languages such as Perl, Python, etc.
- Exposure to functional programming languages.
- Exposure to the Facebook Platform, Open Social and or other web
services and systems
- Comfortable working in an Agile work environment.
- Plays games and occasionally keeps tabs on the gaming world/industry.


If you are interested in this position, please apply online at
http://webconnect.sendouts.net/index.aspx?id=mbg&Key=Cn&ApplyNewCan=0&PostNum=1432


If you aren't available but know someone who may be interested please
feel free to pass this information along.  We do offer a generous
referral bonus!

To see a complete listing of all current openings please visit our
website at www.mbg.com/

Mainz Brady Group, a technology staffing firm in comprehensive
employment and staffing solutions in Software Development, Finance,
Electronics/Manufacturing, Retail, R&D, Services, Government,
Biotechnology, Healthcare and Telecommunications. We specialize in
Information Technology, Technical Sales & Marketing and Human Resources
staffing ? on a Contract, Contract to Hire, and Direct Hire basis. 

gaston phillips // sourcer
 
Technology Staffing for Portland, Oregon and California's Bay Area


gaston at mbg.com
www.mbg.com

503/775.3830 direct 
646/256.7870 mobile
503/961.8910 fax 

Can you recommend talented, technical professionals who would appreciate
speaking with a recruiter? I value your referrals -- thank you






From michaelshiloh1010 at gmail.com  Fri Sep 11 18:37:58 2009
From: michaelshiloh1010 at gmail.com (Michael Shiloh)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 18:37:58 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] any opinions or thoughts on identi.ca?
Message-ID: <4AAAFB76.9020403@gmail.com>

i finally joined identi.ca, the OSS alternative to twitter. not that i'm 
such a big twitter user anyway, but i figure i should put my tweets 
where my mouth is, as it were.

interested to know your thoughts or comments, and to connect with you if 
you are on.

m



From einfeldt at gmail.com  Sat Sep 12 02:57:03 2009
From: einfeldt at gmail.com (Christian Einfeldt)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 02:57:03 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] any opinions or thoughts on identi.ca?
In-Reply-To: <4AAAFB76.9020403@gmail.com>
References: <4AAAFB76.9020403@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4b5781040909120257l1a39a0f0y8a927c997a6141b5@mail.gmail.com>

hi,

On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 6:37 PM, Michael Shiloh <michaelshiloh1010 at gmail.com
> wrote:

> i finally joined identi.ca, the OSS alternative to twitter. not that i'm
> such a big twitter user anyway, but i figure i should put my tweets where my
> mouth is, as it were.
>

I haven't researched this issue much, but Identi.ca touts its service as
being more Free (as in Free Speech) than Twitter.  They claim that it is
easier to fork their service than Twitter.  I am on Identi.ca as einfeldt .
I use Identi.ca because of their emphasis on Free (as in Free Speech).  I
have not actually tried to use any of Identi.ca's features for data or
software portability (since I am a relatively simple end user incapable of
doing so), but I am supporting Identi.ca for the same reason that I try to
use only Free Software when I can.

For me, Twitter is a necessary evil, the same way that Gmail is a necessary
evil.  I wouldn't use Google's products if there were Free alternatives that
allow me to do things as easily as I can with Google.  Gmail's ability to
search my vast inbox of 41k emails is simply astounding.  Likewise, Twitter
is very popular and has good reach.  So I use those two services without
pretending that they are much more than a necessary evil.  And Google does
employ several key FOSS developers and supports lots of FOSS coding.  And
Twitter, like Google and Facebook, etc., are commercially prominent examples
of innovative stuff that you can do with GNU-Linux.  We really need to find
more ways to make money with Free Software.  So even though Twitter's
services employ non-Free software, and is less Free than Identi.ca, I use
them both.  But I am on Identi.ca because I like the fact that they go
farther toward supporting Free Software and Free Data.

Here is what Identi.ca has to say about its emphasis on Free:

##################

http://identi.ca/doc/faq

How is Identi.ca different from Twitter, Jaiku, Pownce, Plurk, others?

Identi.ca is an Open Network Service <http://opendefinition.org/ossd>. Our
main goal is to provide a fair and transparent service that preserves users'
autonomy. In particular, all the software used for Identi.ca is Free
Software <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Software>, and all the data is
available under the Creative Commons Attribution
3.0<http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/>license, making it
Open Data.

The software also implements the
OpenMicroBlogging<http://openmicroblogging.org/>protocol, meaning that
you can have friends on other microblogging services
that can receive your notices.

The goal here is *autonomy* -- you deserve the right to manage your own
on-line presence. If you don't like how Identi.ca works, you can take your
data and the source code and set up your own server (or move your account to
another one).
#####################
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From kai.salmon.chang at gmail.com  Sat Sep 12 03:11:30 2009
From: kai.salmon.chang at gmail.com (Kai Chang)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 03:11:30 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] any opinions or thoughts on identi.ca?
In-Reply-To: <4b5781040909120257l1a39a0f0y8a927c997a6141b5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4AAAFB76.9020403@gmail.com>
	<4b5781040909120257l1a39a0f0y8a927c997a6141b5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5200c28f0909120311j2b44df04hc1e3343c461e02f6@mail.gmail.com>

I think twitter's api is fantastic quite frankly, and their TOS
changes are commendable.  It's growing fast and has a large user base.
 Not that identi.ca, tumblers and others don't fill interesting niches
themselves.  But twitter's all about the massive networking effects
and open source alternatives just don't provide that sometimes.  I use
pidgin just because of gmail and aim, for instance.  All this
microblogging's gotta coalesce a little better for me to jump
platforms.

Kai, new here from Virginia

On 9/12/09, Christian Einfeldt <einfeldt at gmail.com> wrote:
> hi,
>
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 6:37 PM, Michael Shiloh <michaelshiloh1010 at gmail.com
>> wrote:
>
>> i finally joined identi.ca, the OSS alternative to twitter. not that i'm
>> such a big twitter user anyway, but i figure i should put my tweets where
>> my
>> mouth is, as it were.
>>
>
> I haven't researched this issue much, but Identi.ca touts its service as
> being more Free (as in Free Speech) than Twitter.  They claim that it is
> easier to fork their service than Twitter.  I am on Identi.ca as einfeldt .
> I use Identi.ca because of their emphasis on Free (as in Free Speech).  I
> have not actually tried to use any of Identi.ca's features for data or
> software portability (since I am a relatively simple end user incapable of
> doing so), but I am supporting Identi.ca for the same reason that I try to
> use only Free Software when I can.
>
> For me, Twitter is a necessary evil, the same way that Gmail is a necessary
> evil.  I wouldn't use Google's products if there were Free alternatives that
> allow me to do things as easily as I can with Google.  Gmail's ability to
> search my vast inbox of 41k emails is simply astounding.  Likewise, Twitter
> is very popular and has good reach.  So I use those two services without
> pretending that they are much more than a necessary evil.  And Google does
> employ several key FOSS developers and supports lots of FOSS coding.  And
> Twitter, like Google and Facebook, etc., are commercially prominent examples
> of innovative stuff that you can do with GNU-Linux.  We really need to find
> more ways to make money with Free Software.  So even though Twitter's
> services employ non-Free software, and is less Free than Identi.ca, I use
> them both.  But I am on Identi.ca because I like the fact that they go
> farther toward supporting Free Software and Free Data.
>
> Here is what Identi.ca has to say about its emphasis on Free:
>
> ##################
>
> http://identi.ca/doc/faq
>
> How is Identi.ca different from Twitter, Jaiku, Pownce, Plurk, others?
>
> Identi.ca is an Open Network Service <http://opendefinition.org/ossd>. Our
> main goal is to provide a fair and transparent service that preserves users'
> autonomy. In particular, all the software used for Identi.ca is Free
> Software <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Software>, and all the data is
> available under the Creative Commons Attribution
> 3.0<http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/>license, making it
> Open Data.
>
> The software also implements the
> OpenMicroBlogging<http://openmicroblogging.org/>protocol, meaning that
> you can have friends on other microblogging services
> that can receive your notices.
>
> The goal here is *autonomy* -- you deserve the right to manage your own
> on-line presence. If you don't like how Identi.ca works, you can take your
> data and the source code and set up your own server (or move your account to
> another one).
> #####################
>


-- 
Kai Chang  |  kai.salmon.chang at gmail.com



From einfeldt at gmail.com  Sat Sep 12 03:21:08 2009
From: einfeldt at gmail.com (Christian Einfeldt)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 03:21:08 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] any opinions or thoughts on identi.ca?
In-Reply-To: <5200c28f0909120311j2b44df04hc1e3343c461e02f6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4AAAFB76.9020403@gmail.com>
	<4b5781040909120257l1a39a0f0y8a927c997a6141b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<5200c28f0909120311j2b44df04hc1e3343c461e02f6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4b5781040909120321m4dbddd58re40279855b0204a8@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Kai,

I think that it is really cool that you are posting to our LUG from
Virginia!  Thanks for joining this list!  May I ask what motivated you to
join a list for a city 3k miles away on the opposite side of the country?
Just curious, and please forgive me if I am being too forward in asking.  I
don't mean to offend.  I just think it is cool that someone from Virginia
would join our list.  Again, welcome!

On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 3:11 AM, Kai Chang <kai.salmon.chang at gmail.com>wrote:

> I think twitter's api is fantastic quite frankly, and their TOS
> changes are commendable.


Can you give examples?  What do you like about their TOS?


> But twitter's all about the massive networking effects
> and open source alternatives just don't provide that sometimes.


Yeah, that is one reason that I started using Identi.ca --> to try to
increase its reach.

c u
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From kai.salmon.chang at gmail.com  Sat Sep 12 04:01:36 2009
From: kai.salmon.chang at gmail.com (Kai Chang)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 04:01:36 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] any opinions or thoughts on identi.ca?
In-Reply-To: <4b5781040909120321m4dbddd58re40279855b0204a8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4AAAFB76.9020403@gmail.com>
	<4b5781040909120257l1a39a0f0y8a927c997a6141b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<5200c28f0909120311j2b44df04hc1e3343c461e02f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<4b5781040909120321m4dbddd58re40279855b0204a8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5200c28f0909120401gd20be5er29353ead8c3dd18@mail.gmail.com>

Oh I meant just moved to sf from virginia ;). Just graduated from uva
and looking for web development work.  Majored in physics, but pretty
much nil in the career options there.

Twitter's most important change is that you own your tweets, though
obviously they have the right to redistribute.  it's easy to scoff at
this, from a foss perspective, but they are playing an active role in
what is emerging as a very powerful medium.  My comedian friends now
own their jokes, which is enough for most people for 140 chars.

In a very short time though, twitter has short-circuited a lot of
layers of social media.  My grandmas and aunts even read my tweets.
Tweets came close to undermining traditional media in iran.  Twitter
improves the ease with which information passes through the world, and
will help set the groundwork for many publics just finding their
collective voice in the digital age.

For fossies, this revolutionary potential isn't very exciting because
we understand the structure of the internet to be information which
can also be freed.  But twitter's a great stepping stone and as I
said, theyir api is fantastic.  I regularly turn web hobbyist friends
into quasi-competent PHP-hackers due to twitter.  I personally would
rather see a more robust api than source, which is what they've been
working hard on.

Here's a site I used twitter and tumblr in last week.  Didn't have to
teach anyone a clunky cms cause they just needed to keep using what
they use, how beautiful is that!  No viewing the site in IE yet, not
that I have to tell you all.  Also if anyone knows of a good php
caching tutorial let me know.

http://www.amuseboucheimprov.com

Cheers,
Kai

On 9/12/09, Christian Einfeldt <einfeldt at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Kai,
>
> I think that it is really cool that you are posting to our LUG from
> Virginia!  Thanks for joining this list!  May I ask what motivated you to
> join a list for a city 3k miles away on the opposite side of the country?
> Just curious, and please forgive me if I am being too forward in asking.  I
> don't mean to offend.  I just think it is cool that someone from Virginia
> would join our list.  Again, welcome!
>
> On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 3:11 AM, Kai Chang
> <kai.salmon.chang at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> I think twitter's api is fantastic quite frankly, and their TOS
>> changes are commendable.
>
>
> Can you give examples?  What do you like about their TOS?
>
>
>> But twitter's all about the massive networking effects
>> and open source alternatives just don't provide that sometimes.
>
>
> Yeah, that is one reason that I started using Identi.ca --> to try to
> increase its reach.
>
> c u
>


-- 
Kai Chang  |  kai.salmon.chang at gmail.com



From rick at rbsmith.com  Sat Sep 12 05:00:38 2009
From: rick at rbsmith.com (Rick Smith)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 05:00:38 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] jobs with linux and physics (was Re: any opinions or
 thoughts on identi.ca?)
In-Reply-To: <5200c28f0909120401gd20be5er29353ead8c3dd18@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4AAAFB76.9020403@gmail.com>	<4b5781040909120257l1a39a0f0y8a927c997a6141b5@mail.gmail.com>	<5200c28f0909120311j2b44df04hc1e3343c461e02f6@mail.gmail.com>	<4b5781040909120321m4dbddd58re40279855b0204a8@mail.gmail.com>
	<5200c28f0909120401gd20be5er29353ead8c3dd18@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AAB8D66.2060207@rbsmith.com>

> Oh I meant just moved to sf from virginia ;). Just graduated from uva
> and looking for web development work.  Majored in physics, but pretty
> much nil in the career options there.

Hi Kai,

Welcome to the Bay Area.

I noticed a posting on the Silicon Valley Linux User Group list
yesterday from a company founded by a number of physicists.
I mention it in case you would like to do something with physics
as well as programming (but this job listing is not about web
dev, but maybe some there for that too?).  It's in Palo Alto.
I have no affiliation with the place.

The founders page:
http://www.lynceantech.com/company_founders.html

The job posting:
http://lists.svlug.org/archives/jobs/2009-September/000715.html

The svlug job posting mail list:
http://lists.svlug.org/lists/listinfo/jobs

Rick Smith



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Sat Sep 12 06:38:35 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 06:38:35 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] any opinions or thoughts on identi.ca?
In-Reply-To: <4b5781040909120257l1a39a0f0y8a927c997a6141b5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4AAAFB76.9020403@gmail.com>
	<4b5781040909120257l1a39a0f0y8a927c997a6141b5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090912133835.GR22722@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Christian Einfeldt (einfeldt at gmail.com):

> I haven't researched this issue much, but Identi.ca touts its service as
> being more Free (as in Free Speech) than Twitter.  They claim that it is
> easier to fork their service than Twitter. 

Well, it is.

Except, the term "fork their service" is rather confusing and
(inadvertantly misleading).  You can fork (i.e., independently use for
any purpose, and, if you wish, modify or commission modifications of)
the underlying _software_.  Which in turn means that you're not
dependent on any particular implementation of the "service" that uses
that software.

You are not limited to sharecropping on Twitter, Inc.'s property.  You
can have your content _anywhere_ someone sets up and runs that software
(_not_ just on "Identi.ca").  

My friend Evan Prodromou, recently living in Montreal, wrote the
entirely open source Laconica software that powers Identi.ca.  Twitter
uses entirely proprietary software.  If Twitter.com decides to close up
shop, you're completely and definitively screwed.  By contrast, if
Identi.ca closes down for any reason (or turns evil, etc.), you or
anyone else can start up a Laconica instance to host your and anyone
else you wish to host's tweets, in a heartbeat.

> For me, Twitter is a necessary evil, the same way that Gmail is a
> necessary evil. 

GMail is _supremely_ unnecessary.  ;->  So is Twitter.

> Gmail's ability to search my vast inbox of 41k emails is simply astounding.

41,000 e-mails isn't much.  And mutt and grep aren't broken.

Some people are starting to like "Sup" (though I'm remaining with mutt).
Here's my entry on http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Mail/muas.html:

  Sup: http://sup.rubyforge.org/ Ncurses-based, written in Ruby. (Also
  known as "sup-mail" and, rarely, as "sup-mailer".) Supports multiple
  accounts, mbox, mbox over SSH, IMAP, IMAP-SSL, Maildir, POP3 (pending),
  mh (pending), and Gmail (pending). Designed to handle very large amounts
  of mail. Does fast full-text search, GMail-style threading, multiple
  buffers, thread-centric operation, automatic contact-list management,
  custom code insertion via a hook system, organising e-mail with
  user-defined labels, automatically tracking recent contacts. Project was
  initially called "Redwood". Beta release at 2007-07-01. GNU GPLv2.


> And Google does employ several key FOSS developers and supports lots
> of FOSS coding.  

It's nice that they keep Chris di Bona's mortgage paid, but that doesn't
mean their proprietary services aren't just another way to throw away
your computing autonomy and hand over your data to a large, secretive,
and often rather sinister corporation that owes you no loyalty
whatsoever.  Frankly, screw that.

> We really need to find more ways to make money with Free Software. 

Why?  The existing ones work fine.

> Here is what Identi.ca has to say about its emphasis on Free:

Here's what I had to say, when a friend asked me in e-mail about an
online CNet column bad-mouthing Identi.ca and its underlying software:


  [My friend wrote, knowing I think the referenced author is, um, an
  ex-Stanford Law corporate attorney who tends, IMO, to speak someowhat
  with forked tongue:]

  > Our good friend Mr. Matt Asay has published more of his insightful
  > commentary on CNET yesterday:
  >
  > http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10293886-16.html
  >
  > I'm sure you'll enjoy it.

  [Snip some slightly uncharitable comments of mine about the referenced
  author's past commentary on "badgeware" Web 2.0 licensing for hosted
  software, in which he tends to have business interests that are not
  even in all cases properly, IMO, disclosed to readers.]

  In the current case, I'm pretty sure Asay's well aware he's spewing 
  bullshit.  The fallacy can be seen by asking "What happens if Twitter 
  shuts down?  Whereas, what happens if Identi.ca shuts down?"

  If Twitter shuts down, then Asay, Tim O'Reilly, and all the other 
  twitterers are completely and permanently screwed -- because nobody 
  else has the Twitter server software or the legal right (or even 
  physical ability) to run it, let alone maintain and redistribute it.
  If Identi.ca shuts down, you, I, Asay, O'Reilly, or anyone else can 
  replace it in about an hour with an independent instance
  of the open-source Laconica software that runs it -- requiring nothing
  more sophisticated than a static IP, a throwaway machine, Linux, PHP,
  and a couple of PEAR libraries (http://laconi.ca/trac/wiki/Installation).

  Asay is fully aware of that -- as, probably, is O'Reilly -- but they're
  going to talk around that point, taking advantage of the fact that
  they're talking to credulous people who don't know better.


  Watch Asay's tongue do its patented forking action, with Kung-Fu
  Grip<tm>!

      Twitter, in other words, with its closed license, may well be more
      open than Identi.ca, at least in the areas that most people care about
      (development community plus the ability to use tool of choice)

  Note that careful qualifier:  What matters is "areas that most people
  care about", and that that constitutes "development community"
  (Twitter's sharecropper community of people making mashups of its 
  proprietary software's published API), and "ability to use tool of
  choice".

  "Tool of choice" is defined for purposes of Asay and O'Reilly's rhetoric
  as Seesmic.  Any server back-end that Seesmic cannot talk to gets 
  defined as "less free" in Asay and O'Reilly's model.

  Neither of them wants to talk about the fact that Seesmic is useful
  only with a proprietary back-end that can vanish with the flip of a
  power switch.

  Effectively, Asay and O'Reilly have redefined "freedom" to mean "my 
  convenience at this moment".  Neat trick, if you can stand it. 

    Licensing does not create a community: there are plenty of open-source 
    projects that completely adhere to the Open Source Definition and yet
    are effectively closed to outside developers, while Microsoft and
    others have shown for years that they can attract significant outside
    development around their platforms.

  Again, the sham nature of this rhetoric can be seen by asking the same
  simple question as before:  What happens to OpenOffice.org code if
  Sun Microsystems is shut down (or Oracle, now)?  (OO.o is often cited
  as an opensource project effectively "closed" to outside developers.)
  What happens to MS-Windows if Microsoft Corporation shuts down?

  Anyone and everyone who cares about OO.o development has the ability and
  right to independently take over coding and release, at any time.  By
  contrast, MS-Windows developers/users would be totally screwed.

  Asay knows this perfectly well.


Last, here's what I wrote last November, when Evan had recently released
Laconica, and had written asking for my comments:

Quoting Evan Prodromou:

> Hi, Rick! I don't know if you've seen this site at all, but I started
> it this summer. It's the "Open Source Twitter", getting a lot of
> interest from FOSS people, thought you might like to join. I'd love
> your opinion on it.

Hi, Evan!  This is a small effort towards giving you thoughtful
feedback.  It's rushed, for which I apologise.

Short version:  Laconica's a very nice achievement.  Kudos.  Coolest
bit in my opinion is the OpenMicroBlogging spec, and its content-licence
negotiation feature is super-cool:  Whatever makes radically
decentralised but autonomous computing more practical is good.  And its
reliance on OpenID is common sense -- but also one more blow for the
good guys.  Reasons I probably won't use (specifically) Identi.ca have
nothing to do with its quite abundant merit, but rather reflect my
unreasonable insistence on doing my _own_ decentralised and autonomous
computing.


Long version:  When "Software as a Service" (SaaS) hosted apps took off,
I dug in my heels and said "no".  Formal expression of my saying "no" is
here: http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Essays/winolj.html

(I actually _do_ have a LiveJournal login now, which is "rinolj",
strictly to follow my wife's and some other friends' LJ blogs, but I
don't post blog entries there.)

As you'll see in the linked essay, my stance is that open source was all
about returning control of software _and_ data to the user.  SaaS/Web
2.0 creations are, from my (unreasonable) standpoint a step backwards.
My stances is that if I wanted to participate in something like Twitter,
I'd do it on my own machine and software resources using open source.
Ditto LiveJournal.  Ditto Digg.  Ditto Del.icio.us.  And so on.

So, I'm keenly interested in Laconica but merely respectful of
Identi.ca.  (Absolutely no offence intended!)  Identi.ca helps prove the
merit of Laconica, and undoubtedly will help developers torture-test it.

Yes, I know that very few people give a damn about having autonomous
control over their online presence and data.  I'm OK with being one of
those very few people.  When I look at applications I could run and
online schemes I could participate in, I try to estimate how much
complexity, machine resources, security headaches, and sysadmin time
(_my_ time) it's likely to chew up.  Time permitting, I deploy whatever
has high enough estimated coolness-to-headache ratios.

Laconica and OpenMicroBlogging _seem_ to make such a deployment pretty
attractive.  We'll see.


Further shirtsleeve comments follow, because you asked.  (Otherwise,
ex-cathedra critical remarks from some jackass sysadmin might come
across as impertinent and infuriating -- which they might, anyway.)

Might as well do the big flamebait item first:  PHP.

I like and use PHP.  Its association with security meltdowns is 80%
social effect: careless novice coders cut their teeth on it (but using
it of course doesn't make you a careless novice coder).  The other 20%
can be cut further by locking down the ubiquitous bad installation
defaults for the PHP engine.  See my recommendations, not yet fully
updated for PHP5:  http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Security/php.html

That sort of lockdown has tended, statistically, to break many developed
PHP apps, because of developers relying on the unsafe engine defaults.
This has been a disturbing trend.  Moreover, security rot has tended to
infect core PHP / PEAR modules such as the two XMLRPC messsaging
implementations:  See "Lupper" inside
http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/index.php?page=virus#virus5 , which
exposed the fact that PHP's XMLRPC implementations do _no input validation_.

Failure to do input validation when your code can be expected to handle
public data is a huge red flag, for me.  This problem is endemic in Web
apps, generally, but seems overall a bigger problem among PHP codebases
than most others.  (To be fair, again, this almost certainly has a large
element of social effect.)

It's reassuring to hear news that a language has something like Perl's
"taint mode" (http://www.webreference.com/programming/perl/taint/) --
and to hear news that developers are actually using it at least
semi-routinely.  I don't know if such a mode exists in PHP, but it's
downright frightening that I don't hear PHP guys even talking about it,
or talking about input validation generally.

I came by my caution about Web apps' input validation the hard way:
http://linuxmafia.com/news.html

ikiwiki, by way of comparison, at least leverages the HTML::Scrubber CPAN
library -- and also doesn't require a back-end SQL database that can be
"injected".  What does Laconica do?


I really feel a bit unfair picking on PHP guys, because there's a much
worse group:  Java / J2EE / servlet people.
                                                                                

Better news:  Your dependency tree -- which seems modest.  One of the           
other things that incline me to say "No thanks" is having to install /
maintain a huge hairball of code, just to do something relatively
simple.  Featuritis is a plague in open source -- but of course less so
than in proprietary software, and with the Java tribe forming a link
between the bad habits of the two groups.

However, I get reassured when I see an effort to make code modular to
the extent feasible.  Does Laconica _really, absolutely_ require
XMPP/Jabber in order merely to do microblogging at all?  If not, maybe          
the http://laconi.ca/trac/wiki/Installation page should clarify what are        
the essential dependencies and which can be left out / configured out if
you don't need the entire marching band, e.g., non-federated.
                                                                                
(It's possible there's an inherent reason why XMPP really is an absolute
requirement.  Maybe you should have a brief page outlining the                  
architecture?)                                                                  


When I see that an apps is claimed to specifically require a SQL
back-end database, I often am forced to wonder why.  Not everyone's
running sourceforge.net.  ikiwiki back-ends nicely into your choice of          
pretty nearly any reasonable VCS (again, modularity), without problems.         
Why can't a microblogging engine do so?  If I have to dump a database           
engine to disk just so I can take a backup, I want to know why.


The core of ikiwiki is small; it has a well-documented interface for            
plugins:  http://ikiwiki.info/plugins/  So, again, this helps avoid             
having to install / maintain a code hairball, just to get _some_ part           
of everything running.
                                                                                

When I wanted to implement locally on linuxmafia.com something like the         
old Yahoo directory (now http://dir.yahoo.com), I looked around and
found almost nothing but overfeatured CMS engines -- all of which I
refused to use.  Something like a year later, I found and revamped              
PerlHoo.  See:  http://linuxgazette.net/issue98/lg_tips.html#tips.18            
It's just a pair of tiny, minimum-functionality, easily auditable Perl          
CGIs.  Exactly what was needed, not more stuff to break or get cracked.         


I hope you find at least _some_ of my impertinent comments useful.  Or
at least entertaining.  ;->




From rick at linuxmafia.com  Sat Sep 12 07:22:10 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 07:22:10 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] any opinions or thoughts on identi.ca?
In-Reply-To: <5200c28f0909120311j2b44df04hc1e3343c461e02f6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4AAAFB76.9020403@gmail.com>
	<4b5781040909120257l1a39a0f0y8a927c997a6141b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<5200c28f0909120311j2b44df04hc1e3343c461e02f6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090912142210.GS22722@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Kai Chang (kai.salmon.chang at gmail.com):

> I think twitter's api is fantastic quite frankly, and their TOS
> changes are commendable.

I was actually quite impressed when I read their terms of service.
They're quite fair-minded for a proprietary hosted service, some of the
best I've seen.

As far as the API, I'm glad you like it, but a well-furnished jail's
still a jail.  ;->  (I don't literally mean that, but it's yet more
proprietary junk, and I long ago said goodbye to that, in as many
aspects of computing as possible, and "You can create mashups to slice
and dice our proprietary service in innumerable ways" strikes me
personally as an excellent case of "That's nice, now please go away.")


>  But twitter's all about the massive networking effects
> and open source alternatives just don't provide that sometimes.

Open source _as usually implemented_ indeed usually doesn't even try to 
gain networking effect (which, when you really come down to it, is not a
lot more than monopoly with a PR initiative).  Anyway, what would be 
_really_ interesting would be a radically decentralised network
architecture for microblogging interchange among independent peered
hosts operated by individuals and groups around the world.  

Such a loosely federated, cooperating group of implementations would
actually have a way, way greater networking effect than does a
1950s-style one-company-to-do-everything proprietary service, and
certainly would tend to be more robust and less prone to single points
of failure, collapse just because one company goes belly-up, etc. -- if
properly architected, anyway.

Individual coders have seldom done a _lot_ of work on such radically
decentralised systems, because they (so far) haven't cared enough --
especially not for, frankly, ephemera like microblogging.  And the
vulture capitalists would rather pump money into launching monopolies.
But it would be interesting, if someone were to actually try it.

Come to think of it, Evan's OpenMicroBlogging protocol might be a good
start towards that.  If I actually cared about microblogging (or, in
general, blogging, actually), I'd be looking closer at that.


> I use pidgin just because of gmail and aim, for instance.

You _like_ AIM?  And someone isn't holding a gun to your head?  ;->

Client work obliges me to use the Yahoo Instant Messenger service
sometimes (much as I try to tell them that Jabber/XMPP isn't broken, and
they're making a horrible mistake relying on Yahoo for their sensitive
business communications, even with OTR), but at least I can use CenterIM
for that, rather than the bloatware horror that is pidgin.




From Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu  Sat Sep 12 11:57:04 2009
From: Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu (Michael Paoli)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 11:57:04 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Job descriptions/requisitions requirements,
	"years experience", etc.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.5.1252695602.27880.sf-lug@linuxmafia.com>
References: <mailman.5.1252695602.27880.sf-lug@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <20090912115704.42312jit8tt3ojcw@webmail.rawbw.com>

Job descriptions/requisitions requirements, "years experience", etc.

Some random hopefully useful comments :-) - mostly on
writing/specifying job descriptions/requisitions, etc. used to attempt
to recruit candidates, fill open positions, etc. (and to a lesser
extent on reading them and such).

"years experience" - I generally advocate folks don't include - or at
least don't include "excessive" requirements in terms of time (year(s))
of experience in/with <whatever>.  There are a few reasons I generally
take such a position - the first being a quite practical one.  In many
cases, someone with e.g. 2 or fewer years of experience will be more
competent at something than someone with 5 or more years experience -
and yes, even when working on that same <whatever> - surprising, but
true (at least often enough, anyway - and wouldn't one prefer to hire
the person who grows their skill set / competency at 2.5 or more times
the rate of some other candidate that meets "requirements"?).  Not every
one picks up stuff at the same rate, retains it as well (or not), some
folks may be highly self-motivated to master stuff and do so
exceedingly well, other folks ... well, don't particularly care or
otherwise don't manage to master it or get particularly close - even
with substantially more time (or they might mostly be growing in other
areas/directions).  Sometimes also depends upon resources (e.g.
training and relevant materials) that are/aren't available/accessible
to someone ... or if they have the time to use such
materials/resources.  I tend to favor an approach where such
descriptions/requisitions - especially for "requirements" - are written
much more in terms of levels of skill/competency/familiarity - e.g.
what can they do, how well and quickly, and how well do they know it
... and not in terms of how many years it's been within a few feet of
their potential grasping.  E.g. for systems administrator positions,
when I've written such descriptions, I've often written them in terms
of relevant skill levels (and typically referencing SAGE Levels in job
descriptions: http://www.sage.org/field/jobs-descriptions.html as more
likely to be understood among systems administrators than some random
made-up-on-the-fly set of descriptions/levels or the descriptions of
some not especially huge hiring entity (e.g. something less than, say,
the US Federal Government, or a highly populous US state).) Some
example bits of text I'd used (from a slightly mangled copy I found
that's still on The Internet): "good/strong hands-on hardware technical
(Solaris 8 SPARC, Hewlett-Packard x86 Red Hat AS 3.0), strong in those
operating systems and Perl, and preferably also HP-UX 11.11, SuSE 8.1,
shell scripting, SAGE Level III[3]/IV[4], etc." "strong on Solaris 8
SPARC and Hewlett-Packard x86 Red Hat AS 3.0 (both local to that site),
Perl, at least proficient in scripting one or more Bourne-like shells
(Bourne/Korn/POSIX/bash)." "Expecting and desire a typical compliment
of SAGE Level III[3]/IV[4] skills/experience." And another practical
matter - if one writes as "required", <N> years <foo> experience, any
candidate with less than <N> years <foo> experience may consider
themselves unqualified and not send in their resume, inquire, or apply -
even if they might be the best of the applicants that might otherwise
have applied.  Also, in some settings, HR (or similar area/department)
will filter resumes/applications/applicants before they get to hiring
manager, etc. - and if they don't strictly meet something specified as
required, HR will place them into the "not qualified" bucket, and never
pass them along to hiring manager, etc.

"required"/requirements - one thing I learned along the way from some
HR training - in job posting/requisition, never state as required
something that isn't an absolute hard requirement for the position -
i.e. if you might actually possibly hire someone for that position that
failed to precisely meet as much as one thing on the description that
was stated as "required", then one has a problem.  Of course one can
state as much as one wants as "strongly desired", "desired",
"preferred", "also beneficial", etc.  As I understand it, at least some
of the reasons behind never putting as "required" something that isn't
absolutely required, mostly has to do with lawyers and all that goop.
Namely, if one hires anyone that didn't meet every item that was stated
as "required", well, then any and all persons that also don't meet
what's stated as "required" may decide to sue, claiming that they were
discriminated against ('you hired person X even though they didn't meet
requirements - well I also didn't meet requirements, so you must've
discriminated against me on some other (potentially protected) grounds,
so I'm gonna sue you!') (or maybe on 'false advertisement' ('I didn't
apply because I didn't meet requirement(s), yet you hired someone who
didn't meet requirement(s) yet you advertised those as being required,
therefore I'm gonna sue you!') grounds, or who knows, ... anyway,
lawyers, and entanglements better avoided).

And ... reading all those descriptions/"requirements" :-)  Not every
job posting/requisition written is written as it theoretically should
be in those regards - so ... often useful to read/take the
"requirements" with a grain of salt, perhaps also try to "reverse
engineer" what the hiring manager is likely actually looking for and
likely to consider or seriously consider - and if one may in fact
rather to quite well fit the bill, generally won't hurt too much to
apply (and never know - one may end up getting the job offer - or maybe
that leads to a job offer of another position of interest).  Applying
for something where one doesn't meet every stated "requirement"?  Don't
deceive or hide the fact(s) - be upfront about it - but coach it in a
positive way (e.g. perhaps in cover letter: <glowing stuff about well
meeting most everything in description> ... 'Though I don't yet have
precisely <requirement>, I do have <damn near requirement>, and am the
extreme go-to expert in <requirement area> at <my big company>. I've
also written most of <my big company>'s documentation and training
materials on <requirement area>, and have been the lead trainer and
instruction developer at <my big company> on <requirement area> for the
last <rather long time>.  You might perhaps also know of my book <book>
on <requirement area> that's sold over <big number> copies in
<impressive number of> languages.')

Other random bits: Too many candidates not qualified or sufficiently
qualified?  There are other ways to filter or reduce the number of
undesired resumes/applications submitted.  One shouldn't overstate
requirements to attempt to do that.  If and to the extent one is going
to list "required" stuff - think long and hard about those - e.g.
what's absolute bare minimum that one would possibly hire into the
position - that would be at/around the "required" criteria.  Feel free
to go (reasonably?) hog wild on the "strongly desired" and "strong
preference for" through "nice to also have" bits one includes in
description.  Writing good/excellent job postings/requisitions isn't
especially easy - but taking the time to do it very well can have major
long-term benefits (and avoid significant pains).  As one excellent
manager I had put it (paraphrasing): 'Hiring good people is (a) most
important responsibility of manager - after that things almost run
themselves.'  I'd argue that writing good/excellent job
posting/requisition is a quite significant part of that.

Also, many bits of this may be rather specific to US law - some of these
considerations may not be applicable or as applicable in other
countries.  Our lawyers may be much more numerous and litigious than
yours.  ;-)




From nbs at sonic.net  Sat Sep 12 13:40:13 2009
From: nbs at sonic.net (Bill Kendrick)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 13:40:13 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] any opinions or thoughts on identi.ca?
In-Reply-To: <20090912133835.GR22722@linuxmafia.com>
References: <4AAAFB76.9020403@gmail.com>
	<4b5781040909120257l1a39a0f0y8a927c997a6141b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090912133835.GR22722@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <20090912204013.GC20996@sonic.net>

On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 06:38:35AM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> > Gmail's ability to search my vast inbox of 41k emails is simply astounding.
> 
> 41,000 e-mails isn't much.  And mutt and grep aren't broken.

Seriously.  Mutt is a godsend.


> > We really need to find more ways to make money with Free Software. 
> Why?  The existing ones work fine.

Some of us are greedy, and wish we could work on our open source projects
all day long, continue to release them for free, and still somehow pay
rent/mortgage and feed our family...


-- 
-bill!
Sent from my computer



From nbs at sonic.net  Sat Sep 12 13:48:37 2009
From: nbs at sonic.net (Bill Kendrick)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 13:48:37 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] PHP caching (was re: any opinions or thoughts on
	identi.ca?)
In-Reply-To: <5200c28f0909120401gd20be5er29353ead8c3dd18@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4AAAFB76.9020403@gmail.com>
	<4b5781040909120257l1a39a0f0y8a927c997a6141b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<5200c28f0909120311j2b44df04hc1e3343c461e02f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<4b5781040909120321m4dbddd58re40279855b0204a8@mail.gmail.com>
	<5200c28f0909120401gd20be5er29353ead8c3dd18@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090912204837.GD20996@sonic.net>

On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 04:01:36AM -0700, Kai Chang wrote:
> Also if anyone knows of a good php caching tutorial let me know.

Not a tutorial, but I inherited some code that uses this:
  http://www.phpclasses.org/browse/package/698.html

by this guy:
  http://emilis.info/scripts/

Sadly, I can't find it somewhere where you can download it without
signing up and logging in! >:^(


You could always just use PHP's Memcache stuff directly:
  http://us.php.net/manual/en/intro.memcache.php


I'm too tired to think, sorry :)
-bill!



From einfeldt at gmail.com  Sat Sep 12 13:58:29 2009
From: einfeldt at gmail.com (Christian Einfeldt)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 13:58:29 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] any opinions or thoughts on identi.ca?
In-Reply-To: <20090912204013.GC20996@sonic.net>
References: <4AAAFB76.9020403@gmail.com>
	<4b5781040909120257l1a39a0f0y8a927c997a6141b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090912133835.GR22722@linuxmafia.com>
	<20090912204013.GC20996@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <4b5781040909121358q605fbbe8r2721ff10672791d3@mail.gmail.com>

hi,

wish we could work on our open source projects
> all day long,


BTW, Bill, you will be pleased to know that Tux Math is a big hit with the
kids at the Creative Arts Charter School in San Francisco, a public school.
We are also going to be introducing Tux Paint this semester at two schools.

c u
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From kai.salmon.chang at gmail.com  Sat Sep 12 19:45:54 2009
From: kai.salmon.chang at gmail.com (Kai Chang)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 19:45:54 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] PHP caching (was re: any opinions or thoughts on
	identi.ca?)
In-Reply-To: <20090912204837.GD20996@sonic.net>
References: <4AAAFB76.9020403@gmail.com>
	<4b5781040909120257l1a39a0f0y8a927c997a6141b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<5200c28f0909120311j2b44df04hc1e3343c461e02f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<4b5781040909120321m4dbddd58re40279855b0204a8@mail.gmail.com>
	<5200c28f0909120401gd20be5er29353ead8c3dd18@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090912204837.GD20996@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <5200c28f0909121945j2ac66fa4jf14ac6045d08c9a4@mail.gmail.com>

Hey,

 Thanks for the links!  As soon as the sonic.net guys come around with
my internet I'll read up more on memcached.

On 9/12/09, Bill Kendrick <nbs at sonic.net> wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 04:01:36AM -0700, Kai Chang wrote:
>> Also if anyone knows of a good php caching tutorial let me know.
>
> Not a tutorial, but I inherited some code that uses this:
>   http://www.phpclasses.org/browse/package/698.html
>
> by this guy:
>   http://emilis.info/scripts/
>
> Sadly, I can't find it somewhere where you can download it without
> signing up and logging in! >:^(
>
>
> You could always just use PHP's Memcache stuff directly:
>   http://us.php.net/manual/en/intro.memcache.php
>
>
> I'm too tired to think, sorry :)
> -bill!
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>


-- 
Kai Chang  |  kai.salmon.chang at gmail.com



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Sun Sep 13 01:06:44 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 01:06:44 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] any opinions or thoughts on identi.ca?
In-Reply-To: <20090912204013.GC20996@sonic.net>
References: <4AAAFB76.9020403@gmail.com>
	<4b5781040909120257l1a39a0f0y8a927c997a6141b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090912133835.GR22722@linuxmafia.com>
	<20090912204013.GC20996@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <20090913080644.GV22722@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Bill Kendrick (nbs at sonic.net):

> Some of us are greedy, and wish we could work on our open source projects
> all day long, continue to release them for free, and still somehow pay
> rent/mortgage and feed our family...

Yeah, that would certainly be nice.

OSI used to have some analysis essays -- they might still -- pointing
out that the vast majority of all software developed isn't publicly
distributed in any way, but rather is internally developed within firms,
foundations, governments, etc., to solve the needs of that group.  So,
the firms / governments / etc. keep coders on payroll to (among other
things) write and maintain that code.  OSI's point was that the
sponsoring groups could reduce costs, improve maintainability and
debugging, increase the acceptability of the programs' data structures
and interfaces as a standard to others, etc., by making the code be
under an open source / free software licence.

So, if you happen to work for such an organisation, you might end up
being paid (in effect and at least in part) to write open source code --
because your employer needs it done, and the licensing meets their
needs.

The larger point is that making a living by _selling software_ has
always been a relatively rare and somewhat freaky model for software
production.

However, there have always been a number of standard ways for making
money in those freaky scenarios where it'd deemed desirable to try to
earn a living from software directly, e.g., the support sellers, loss
leader, widget frosting, and accessorising moderls.  See:
http://www.opensource.org/advocacy/case_for_business.php

Often, dual proprietary / free licensing is useful for those methods.





From sverma at sfsu.edu  Sun Sep 13 12:14:12 2009
From: sverma at sfsu.edu (Sameer Verma)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 12:14:12 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] any opinions or thoughts on identi.ca?
In-Reply-To: <5200c28f0909120311j2b44df04hc1e3343c461e02f6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4AAAFB76.9020403@gmail.com>
	<4b5781040909120257l1a39a0f0y8a927c997a6141b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<5200c28f0909120311j2b44df04hc1e3343c461e02f6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5fb387c70909131214id280841xc314e646a9f27cb5@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 3:11 AM, Kai Chang <kai.salmon.chang at gmail.com> wrote:
> I think twitter's api is fantastic quite frankly, and their TOS
> changes are commendable. ?It's growing fast and has a large user base.
> ?Not that identi.ca, tumblers and others don't fill interesting niches
> themselves. ?But twitter's all about the massive networking effects
> and open source alternatives just don't provide that sometimes. ?I use
> pidgin just because of gmail and aim, for instance. ?All this
> microblogging's gotta coalesce a little better for me to jump
> platforms.
>
> Kai, new here from Virginia
>

Hello Kai, and welcome to SF-LUG

I think the real value in any social networking (SN) platform
(twitter, facebook, identi.ca) is the network value - the dots that it
helps connect. If, for instance, twitter were to be powered by
laconi.ca software, its value wouldn't change much from the SN point
of view, to its users. Twitter may actually gain a few more users who
would like the fact that its FOSS powered, but people use twitter not
so much for the platform as for following @lessig or @cdibona etc.

The software is an enabler, but its only one component of the
"service". The consumer will look at it as one service and not in
separate layers, as technologists do. You could run your own service
on laconi.ca but unless others buy into your service's value, you'll
be a network of 1. In this context, I find it interesting that while
e-mail continues to work across all sorts of brands and networks
(thanks to RFC 822 and beyond) IM and SN networks continue to be
siloed. Some work across (twitter to FB, ping.fm) but these are
"middleware" hacks at best to a problem that could be better served
with standards. Each network owner wants its own silo to itself, to
propagate its brand, service, etc. not realizing that if they did open
it up to other networks the potential value would be so much more.

If we are to believe Bob Metcalfe
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metcalfe%27s_law), then the value of a
network is proportional to the square of the number of connected users
of the system. A network of "a" users has value proportional to
square(a). Similarly, a network of "b" users has value proportional to
square(b). But, a combined network will have a value proportional to
square(a+b) which is square(a) + square(b) +2*(ab). The 2(ab) is where
the cheese is at, so to speak. That's the extra value, which many
services like twitter don't think is worth more than what their
branded silo provides. Once the value of 2*ab becomes larger than what
they think their brand's worth, they'll open it up!

cheers,
Sameer
-- 
Dr. Sameer Verma, Ph.D.
Associate Professor, Information Systems
Director, Center for Business Solutions
San Francisco State University
http://verma.sfsu.edu/
http://cbs.sfsu.edu/
http://is.sfsu.edu/

> On 9/12/09, Christian Einfeldt <einfeldt at gmail.com> wrote:
>> hi,
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 6:37 PM, Michael Shiloh <michaelshiloh1010 at gmail.com
>>> wrote:
>>
>>> i finally joined identi.ca, the OSS alternative to twitter. not that i'm
>>> such a big twitter user anyway, but i figure i should put my tweets where
>>> my
>>> mouth is, as it were.
>>>
>>
>> I haven't researched this issue much, but Identi.ca touts its service as
>> being more Free (as in Free Speech) than Twitter. ?They claim that it is
>> easier to fork their service than Twitter. ?I am on Identi.ca as einfeldt .
>> I use Identi.ca because of their emphasis on Free (as in Free Speech). ?I
>> have not actually tried to use any of Identi.ca's features for data or
>> software portability (since I am a relatively simple end user incapable of
>> doing so), but I am supporting Identi.ca for the same reason that I try to
>> use only Free Software when I can.
>>
>> For me, Twitter is a necessary evil, the same way that Gmail is a necessary
>> evil. ?I wouldn't use Google's products if there were Free alternatives that
>> allow me to do things as easily as I can with Google. ?Gmail's ability to
>> search my vast inbox of 41k emails is simply astounding. ?Likewise, Twitter
>> is very popular and has good reach. ?So I use those two services without
>> pretending that they are much more than a necessary evil. ?And Google does
>> employ several key FOSS developers and supports lots of FOSS coding. ?And
>> Twitter, like Google and Facebook, etc., are commercially prominent examples
>> of innovative stuff that you can do with GNU-Linux. ?We really need to find
>> more ways to make money with Free Software. ?So even though Twitter's
>> services employ non-Free software, and is less Free than Identi.ca, I use
>> them both. ?But I am on Identi.ca because I like the fact that they go
>> farther toward supporting Free Software and Free Data.
>>
>> Here is what Identi.ca has to say about its emphasis on Free:
>>
>> ##################
>>
>> http://identi.ca/doc/faq
>>
>> How is Identi.ca different from Twitter, Jaiku, Pownce, Plurk, others?
>>
>> Identi.ca is an Open Network Service <http://opendefinition.org/ossd>. Our
>> main goal is to provide a fair and transparent service that preserves users'
>> autonomy. In particular, all the software used for Identi.ca is Free
>> Software <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Software>, and all the data is
>> available under the Creative Commons Attribution
>> 3.0<http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/>license, making it
>> Open Data.
>>
>> The software also implements the
>> OpenMicroBlogging<http://openmicroblogging.org/>protocol, meaning that
>> you can have friends on other microblogging services
>> that can receive your notices.
>>
>> The goal here is *autonomy* -- you deserve the right to manage your own
>> on-line presence. If you don't like how Identi.ca works, you can take your
>> data and the source code and set up your own server (or move your account to
>> another one).
>> #####################
>>
>
>
> --
> Kai Chang ?| ?kai.salmon.chang at gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Sun Sep 13 12:54:01 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 12:54:01 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] any opinions or thoughts on identi.ca?
In-Reply-To: <5fb387c70909131214id280841xc314e646a9f27cb5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4AAAFB76.9020403@gmail.com>
	<4b5781040909120257l1a39a0f0y8a927c997a6141b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<5200c28f0909120311j2b44df04hc1e3343c461e02f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<5fb387c70909131214id280841xc314e646a9f27cb5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090913195401.GW22722@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Sameer Verma (sverma at sfsu.edu):

> The software is an enabler, but its only one component of the
> "service". The consumer will look at it as one service and not in
> separate layers, as technologists do. 
> 
> You could run your own service on laconi.ca but unless others buy into
> your service's value, you'll be a network of 1.

Without the OpenMicroBlogging protocol and the radically decentralised
architecture it permits, that would actually be true.  However, because
Laconica _isn't_ limited to the 1950s big-dumb-monopoly-service-provider 
model, the network effects available from participating microblogging
sites have the potential to vastly exceed those of Twitter, Inc.'s site.

And you won't have, as with Twitter, the annoyance of the entire service
going completely offline every time someone gets upset over Russia's
intervention in Abkhazia.  

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/08/technology/internet/08twitter.html

By the way, the argument you've been sort-of articulating (about the
whole importance and value residing in hosted network services and their
network effect, such that software and licensing no longer matter) was
originated by Tim O'Reilly, and promulgated lately via O'Reilly Media
columnists, OSCon, Matt Asay columns, and the Open Source Business
conference.

I think I said to Tim, when I first heard him expound that viewpoint,
"Gee, I guess it's pointless for me to run a Web server, then, because
I'll have a network of one, and should just move everything I say onto
CompuServe."




From sverma at sfsu.edu  Sun Sep 13 14:35:02 2009
From: sverma at sfsu.edu (Sameer Verma)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 14:35:02 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] SFD CDs
Message-ID: <5fb387c70909131435r2f50988bm5f6864c7c01d9ea@mail.gmail.com>

To all those who responded on and off list about Software Freedom Day
CDs, thank you and here's what we are planning to do for Software
Freedom Day (Ours will be Sept. 17). Given the disagreements on type
of software and distros, we figured that we could set up a table with
a machine that runs something along the lines of the Freedom Toaster.
http://www.freedomtoaster.org/ We'll have a stack of blank CDs and a
donation box to offset costs of the discs.

If someone walks up to the table:

1) Ask them if they want a disc or two...
2) Show them how it works. (optional: ask for a donation for the media)
3) Ask them to pick a CD-R, place it in the machine, make a choice.
4) While the disc burns we have time to talk to them about SFD and
give them a flyer.
5) After the disc burns, lend them a marker to write on the disc, and
place it in a sleeve.
6) Wish them well and send them on their way.

The Freedom Toaster appears to be unmaintained, so it will take some
digging around. Other alternative is to simply use Brasero or k3b.
Other suggestions are welcome.

cheers,
Sameer
-- 
Dr. Sameer Verma, Ph.D.
Associate Professor, Information Systems
Director, Center for Business Solutions
San Francisco State University
http://verma.sfsu.edu/
http://cbs.sfsu.edu/
http://is.sfsu.edu/



From sverma at sfsu.edu  Sun Sep 13 15:27:13 2009
From: sverma at sfsu.edu (Sameer Verma)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 15:27:13 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] SFD CDs
In-Reply-To: <5fb387c70909131435r2f50988bm5f6864c7c01d9ea@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5fb387c70909131435r2f50988bm5f6864c7c01d9ea@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5fb387c70909131527o38c8eed3iab8b19e661cd2700@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 2:35 PM, Sameer Verma <sverma at sfsu.edu> wrote:
> To all those who responded on and off list about Software Freedom Day
> CDs, thank you and here's what we are planning to do for Software
> Freedom Day (Ours will be Sept. 17). Given the disagreements on type
> of software and distros, we figured that we could set up a table with
> a machine that runs something along the lines of the Freedom Toaster.
> http://www.freedomtoaster.org/ We'll have a stack of blank CDs and a
> donation box to offset costs of the discs.
>
> If someone walks up to the table:
>
> 1) Ask them if they want a disc or two...
> 2) Show them how it works. (optional: ask for a donation for the media)
> 3) Ask them to pick a CD-R, place it in the machine, make a choice.
> 4) While the disc burns we have time to talk to them about SFD and
> give them a flyer.
> 5) After the disc burns, lend them a marker to write on the disc, and
> place it in a sleeve.
> 6) Wish them well and send them on their way.
>
> The Freedom Toaster appears to be unmaintained, so it will take some
> digging around. Other alternative is to simply use Brasero or k3b.
> Other suggestions are welcome.
>
> cheers,
> Sameer
> --
> Dr. Sameer Verma, Ph.D.
> Associate Professor, Information Systems
> Director, Center for Business Solutions
> San Francisco State University
> http://verma.sfsu.edu/
> http://cbs.sfsu.edu/
> http://is.sfsu.edu/
>

A follow-up to my own post. I found another toaster project that seems
to have derived ideas from the previous one. This one is from a school
in Canada. http://cdot.senecac.on.ca/projects/toaster/

Also to clarify what we intend to do, we don't intend to build a
kiosk. A kiosk is expensive, bulky and difficult to transport from one
location to another. Rather, we'll either have a touchscreen/tablet
laptop hooked up to an external burner or XOs (visibility in sunlight
is a plus as we'll be outdoors) connected to a USB burner.

Thought I'd pass it along.

Sameer
-- 
Dr. Sameer Verma, Ph.D.
Associate Professor, Information Systems
Director, Center for Business Solutions
San Francisco State University
http://verma.sfsu.edu/
http://cbs.sfsu.edu/
http://is.sfsu.edu/



From sverma at sfsu.edu  Mon Sep 14 09:01:42 2009
From: sverma at sfsu.edu (Sameer Verma)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 09:01:42 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] SFD CDs
In-Reply-To: <5fb387c70909131435r2f50988bm5f6864c7c01d9ea@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5fb387c70909131435r2f50988bm5f6864c7c01d9ea@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5fb387c70909140901w546c968amcf006fb572f30d8a@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 2:35 PM, Sameer Verma <sverma at sfsu.edu> wrote:
> To all those who responded on and off list about Software Freedom Day
> CDs, thank you and here's what we are planning to do for Software
> Freedom Day (Ours will be Sept. 17). Given the disagreements on type
> of software and distros, we figured that we could set up a table with
> a machine that runs something along the lines of the Freedom Toaster.
> http://www.freedomtoaster.org/ We'll have a stack of blank CDs and a
> donation box to offset costs of the discs.
>
> If someone walks up to the table:
>
> 1) Ask them if they want a disc or two...
> 2) Show them how it works. (optional: ask for a donation for the media)
> 3) Ask them to pick a CD-R, place it in the machine, make a choice.
> 4) While the disc burns we have time to talk to them about SFD and
> give them a flyer.
> 5) After the disc burns, lend them a marker to write on the disc, and
> place it in a sleeve.
> 6) Wish them well and send them on their way.
>
> The Freedom Toaster appears to be unmaintained, so it will take some
> digging around. Other alternative is to simply use Brasero or k3b.
> Other suggestions are welcome.
>
> cheers,
> Sameer
> --
> Dr. Sameer Verma, Ph.D.
> Associate Professor, Information Systems
> Director, Center for Business Solutions
> San Francisco State University
> http://verma.sfsu.edu/
> http://cbs.sfsu.edu/
> http://is.sfsu.edu/
>

One more follow-up to my own post. I thought Freedom Toaster was
unmaintained. Evidently, that's not the case. I got a reply from them.
Here it is, FYI.
--
Sameer


===========
Hi,

We have a commercial version of the software that is maintained and
released to clients who use our products.

If you want to try something different, then take a look at what the
guys at Seneca did: http://cdot.senecac.on.ca/projects/toaster/

- Jason



From toya at linefeed.org  Mon Sep 14 10:01:35 2009
From: toya at linefeed.org (toya)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 10:01:35 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] any opinions or thoughts on identi.ca?
In-Reply-To: <4AAAFB76.9020403@gmail.com>
References: <4AAAFB76.9020403@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AAE76EF.3090801@linefeed.org>

I have being using identi.ca since early this year. I like it a lot, it
has more features than twitter and of course is free software :)
One feature is the group one, which is really cool. you can have a
group, with more than one admin, to post in a group discussion you do
!groupname.. and then everyone from that group will receive your msg.

At the free software foundation latin america list people started a
campaign to use identi.ca and support it and I think that there is a
great number of latin american free software people on it now, and this
number is growing and growing :) which is great.

my id is:
identi.ca/isabela

:)
toya




Michael Shiloh wrote:
> i finally joined identi.ca, the OSS alternative to twitter. not that
> i'm such a big twitter user anyway, but i figure i should put my
> tweets where my mouth is, as it were.
>
> interested to know your thoughts or comments, and to connect with you
> if you are on.
>
> m
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug




From michaelshiloh1010 at gmail.com  Mon Sep 14 10:22:10 2009
From: michaelshiloh1010 at gmail.com (Michael Shiloh)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 10:22:10 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] any opinions or thoughts on identi.ca?
In-Reply-To: <4AAE76EF.3090801@linefeed.org>
References: <4AAAFB76.9020403@gmail.com> <4AAE76EF.3090801@linefeed.org>
Message-ID: <4AAE7BC2.6020800@michaelshiloh.com>

Thanks for your comments, and I've subscribed to your id

toya wrote:
> I have being using identi.ca since early this year. I like it a lot, it
> has more features than twitter and of course is free software :)
> One feature is the group one, which is really cool. you can have a
> group, with more than one admin, to post in a group discussion you do
> !groupname.. and then everyone from that group will receive your msg.
> 
> At the free software foundation latin america list people started a
> campaign to use identi.ca and support it and I think that there is a
> great number of latin american free software people on it now, and this
> number is growing and growing :) which is great.
> 
> my id is:
> identi.ca/isabela
> 
> :)
> toya
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Michael Shiloh wrote:
>> i finally joined identi.ca, the OSS alternative to twitter. not that
>> i'm such a big twitter user anyway, but i figure i should put my
>> tweets where my mouth is, as it were.
>>
>> interested to know your thoughts or comments, and to connect with you
>> if you are on.
>>
>> m
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sf-lug mailing list
>> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
>> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
> 
> 



From darose at darose.net  Mon Sep 14 11:25:24 2009
From: darose at darose.net (David Rosenstrauch)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 14:25:24 -0400
Subject: [sf-lug] any opinions or thoughts on identi.ca?
In-Reply-To: <4b5781040909120321m4dbddd58re40279855b0204a8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4AAAFB76.9020403@gmail.com>	<4b5781040909120257l1a39a0f0y8a927c997a6141b5@mail.gmail.com>	<5200c28f0909120311j2b44df04hc1e3343c461e02f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<4b5781040909120321m4dbddd58re40279855b0204a8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AAE8A94.8090308@darose.net>

On 09/12/2009 06:21 AM, Christian Einfeldt wrote:
> Hi Kai,
> 
> I think that it is really cool that you are posting to our LUG from
> Virginia!  Thanks for joining this list!  May I ask what motivated you to
> join a list for a city 3k miles away on the opposite side of the country?
> Just curious, and please forgive me if I am being too forward in asking.  I
> don't mean to offend.  I just think it is cool that someone from Virginia
> would join our list.  Again, welcome!

I'm a member of the list from 3000 miles away (NYC).  I joined in order 
to keep on top of what's going on the Linux scene in the "mecca of 
tech".  :-)

DR



From michaelshiloh1010 at gmail.com  Mon Sep 14 11:49:07 2009
From: michaelshiloh1010 at gmail.com (Michael Shiloh)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 11:49:07 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] remote participation (was: any opinions or thoughts on
 identi.ca?)
In-Reply-To: <4AAE8A94.8090308@darose.net>
References: <4AAAFB76.9020403@gmail.com>	<4b5781040909120257l1a39a0f0y8a927c997a6141b5@mail.gmail.com>	<5200c28f0909120311j2b44df04hc1e3343c461e02f6@mail.gmail.com>	<4b5781040909120321m4dbddd58re40279855b0204a8@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AAE8A94.8090308@darose.net>
Message-ID: <4AAE9023.7090103@gmail.com>



David Rosenstrauch wrote:
> On 09/12/2009 06:21 AM, Christian Einfeldt wrote:
>> Hi Kai,
>>
>> I think that it is really cool that you are posting to our LUG from
>> Virginia!  Thanks for joining this list!  May I ask what motivated you to
>> join a list for a city 3k miles away on the opposite side of the country?
>> Just curious, and please forgive me if I am being too forward in 
>> asking.  I
>> don't mean to offend.  I just think it is cool that someone from Virginia
>> would join our list.  Again, welcome!
> 
> I'm a member of the list from 3000 miles away (NYC).  I joined in order 
> to keep on top of what's going on the Linux scene in the "mecca of 
> tech".  :-)


I follow Linux in the Middle East and Dorkbot in London, yet I live in 
San Francisco. I'm from those places, and like to feel like I'm still 
part of the community.



From jsimpson at jdsnetwork.com  Mon Sep 14 12:20:27 2009
From: jsimpson at jdsnetwork.com (Jonathan Simpson)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 15:20:27 -0400
Subject: [sf-lug] remote participation (was: any opinions or thoughts on
	identi.ca?)
In-Reply-To: <4AAE9023.7090103@gmail.com>
References: <4AAAFB76.9020403@gmail.com>	<4b5781040909120257l1a39a0f0y8a927c997a6141b5@mail.gmail.com>	<5200c28f0909120311j2b44df04hc1e3343c461e02f6@mail.gmail.com>	<4b5781040909120321m4dbddd58re40279855b0204a8@mail.gmail.com>	<4AAE8A94.8090308@darose.net>
	<4AAE9023.7090103@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009c01ca3570$6bc5b9d0$43512d70$@com>

Howdy. I'm also from about 3000 miles away here in Philadelphia PA.  I
joined up to keep tabs on what's going all over the place simply because I'm
deeply interested in goings-on in the open source world and how it might
pertain to various projects that I work on.  Besides, one can never have too
much email, right? :)

-----Original Message-----
From: sf-lug-bounces at linuxmafia.com [mailto:sf-lug-bounces at linuxmafia.com]
On Behalf Of Michael Shiloh
Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 2:49 PM
To: David Rosenstrauch
Cc: Linux userGroup
Subject: Re: [sf-lug] remote participation (was: any opinions or thoughts on
identi.ca?)



David Rosenstrauch wrote:
> On 09/12/2009 06:21 AM, Christian Einfeldt wrote:
>> Hi Kai,
>>
>> I think that it is really cool that you are posting to our LUG from
>> Virginia!  Thanks for joining this list!  May I ask what motivated you to
>> join a list for a city 3k miles away on the opposite side of the country?
>> Just curious, and please forgive me if I am being too forward in 
>> asking.  I
>> don't mean to offend.  I just think it is cool that someone from Virginia
>> would join our list.  Again, welcome!
> 
> I'm a member of the list from 3000 miles away (NYC).  I joined in order 
> to keep on top of what's going on the Linux scene in the "mecca of 
> tech".  :-)


I follow Linux in the Middle East and Dorkbot in London, yet I live in 
San Francisco. I'm from those places, and like to feel like I'm still 
part of the community.

_______________________________________________
sf-lug mailing list
sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug




From rick at linuxmafia.com  Mon Sep 14 12:30:46 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 12:30:46 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] any opinions or thoughts on identi.ca?
In-Reply-To: <4AAE76EF.3090801@linefeed.org>
References: <4AAAFB76.9020403@gmail.com> <4AAE76EF.3090801@linefeed.org>
Message-ID: <20090914193046.GX22722@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting toya (toya at linefeed.org):

> At the free software foundation latin america list people started a
> campaign to use identi.ca and support it and I think that there is a
> great number of latin american free software people on it now, and this
> number is growing and growing :) which is great.

You know, there are also a number of other Spanish-language sites
known to be running the open source Status.net software (until recently
called Laconica) that Identi.ca uses.  See:
http://status.net/wiki/ListOfServers#Spanish





From toya at linefeed.org  Mon Sep 14 12:59:44 2009
From: toya at linefeed.org (toya)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 12:59:44 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] any opinions or thoughts on identi.ca?
In-Reply-To: <20090914193046.GX22722@linuxmafia.com>
References: <4AAAFB76.9020403@gmail.com> <4AAE76EF.3090801@linefeed.org>
	<20090914193046.GX22722@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <4AAEA0B0.6060806@linefeed.org>

Rick Moen wrote:
> Quoting toya (toya at linefeed.org):
>
>   
>> At the free software foundation latin america list people started a
>> campaign to use identi.ca and support it and I think that there is a
>> great number of latin american free software people on it now, and this
>> number is growing and growing :) which is great.
>>     
>
> You know, there are also a number of other Spanish-language sites
> known to be running the open source Status.net software (until recently
> called Laconica) that Identi.ca uses.  See:
> http://status.net/wiki/ListOfServers#Spanish
>
>   
Yeah I saw that, when we started the campaign a few people joined the
development to help with the translation and also to get identi.ca
working with all languages.. I am not sure how that is going, but people
were asking why identi.ca is not using those resources.. and they
decided to join it to help have the site multi-language.

I can ask Rafael Bonifaz from Ecuador about it, he was one of the people
who were involved with it.

toya


>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>   




From Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu  Mon Sep 14 13:20:23 2009
From: Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu (Michael Paoli)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 13:20:23 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] TOMORROW!: BALUG: Tu 2009-09-15 Christian Einfeldt on:
	Linux in	schools: Help yourself by helping the underdog
Message-ID: <20090914132023.14956s1lwe80k1s0@webmail.rawbw.com>

Just a reminder folks, TOMORROW:

BALUG: Tu 2009-09-15 Christian Einfeldt on: Linux in schools: Help  
yourself by helping the underdog

BALUG: Tu 2009-09-15 Christian Einfeldt on: Linux in schools:
        Help yourself by helping the underdog

Bay Area Linux User Group (BALUG)
Tuesday 6:30 P.M. 2009-09-15

Please RSVP if you're planning to come (see further below).

For our 2009-09-15 BALUG meeting, we're excited to present:

Christian Einfeldt on: Linux in schools:
Help yourself by helping the underdog
Schools and Linux should really fit together hand-in-hand.  Schools
need robust, low cost infrastructure, and the Linux community needs
more widespread adoption to avoid marginalization on the desktop.
Schools offer the potential to become channels for distribution and
socialization for Linux.  Christian Einfeldt is a community organizer
who has worked for more than 5 years to bring Linux to two local public
schools, and will draw on this experience to talk about what schools
need to go further with Linux, and how schools can help create greater
mindshare for Linux.

Christian Einfeldt has been using GNU-Linux in his law practice since
late 2000.  Einfeldt is a relatively simple end user who runs whichever
distro is favored by the guru helping him.  Currently, that means
regular old brown Ubuntu (GNOME), but in the past has included openSUSE
(KDE).  Einfeldt is also fond of Xubuntu, as it runs quite well and
installs easily on dead badgers and other odd ball legacy hardware that
he and others are adminning at two local school FOSS projects supported
by Bay Area GNUsters and Penguinistas.  You know who you are.

So, if you'd like to join us please RSVP:

           rsvp at balug.org

**Why RSVP??**

Well, don't worry we won't turn you away, but the RSVPs really help the
Four Seas Restaurant plan the meal and they help ensure that we'll be
able to eat upstairs in the private banquet room.

Meeting Details...

           6:30pm
           Tuesday, September 15th, 2009 2009-09-15

           Four Seas Restaurant http://www.fourseasr.com/
           731 Grant Ave.
           San Francisco, CA 94108
           Easy PARKING:
           Portsmouth Square Garage at 733 Kearny http://www.sfpsg.com/

Cost: The meetings are always free, but dinner is $13

Feedback on our publicity/announcements (e.g. contacts or lists where we
should get our information out that we're not presently reaching, or
things we should do differently): publicity-feedback at balug.org

http://www.balug.org/




From sverma at sfsu.edu  Wed Sep 16 12:38:13 2009
From: sverma at sfsu.edu (Sameer Verma)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 12:38:13 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Software Freedom Day at SF State
Message-ID: <5fb387c70909161238r5f41b316k33d21b7fe1a7359c@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,
We (San Francisco State University) are hosting Software Freedom Day
2009 on campus tomorrow (September 17, 2009). Details of this event
are posted at http://softwarefreedomday.org/teams/northamerica/CA/SanFrancisco/SFState.
This is a worldwide event with over 500+ teams. You are all welcome to
drop by and/or participate.

cheers,
Sameer
-- 
Dr. Sameer Verma, Ph.D.
Associate Professor, Information Systems
Director, Center for Business Solutions
San Francisco State University
http://verma.sfsu.edu/
http://cbs.sfsu.edu/
http://is.sfsu.edu/



From jim at well.com  Wed Sep 16 18:58:56 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 18:58:56 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] About USB partitioning and formatting
Message-ID: <1253152736.6415.80.camel@jim-laptop>


   some weeks ago i posted a question about making 
a USB stick bootable. i was hoping for something 
along the lines of using the  dd  command along 
with info as to what corresponds to "partitions" 
and "cylinders" and such in USB stick land. 
   the following link is real good: tells a lot 
about essential storage technology of USB sticks 
(and SD and other NAND flash storage devices). 

http://wiki.laptop.org/go/How_to_Damage_a_FLASH_Storage_Device 


   essentially, what i got out of it after one 
reading (two or more readings to go) is 

don't_do_like_i_did: 
* don't use fdisk to partition a USB stick 
* don't use mkfs to put a filesystem on a USB stick 

the following seems good, if not best, practice: 
   just put up with whatever FAT-style filesystem 
is on the stick, don't count on symlinks or inode 
tables; tarballs might be a good way to preserve 
such. 
   no partitions on a single stick: buy a separate 
stick for each partition you want to copy. 
   to make a USB stick bootable, stick with syslinux 
or some other software specialized for working with 
USB sticks. 

   i am, of course, interested in how my surmises 
are wrong-headed and what might be misinformation 
or omissions from the linked page. 





From jim at well.com  Thu Sep 17 09:04:17 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 09:04:17 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [Fwd: [Lf-announce] Only One Week Until LinuxCon -
	Register Now to	Attend or Watch Live Video Stream]
Message-ID: <1253203457.6415.115.camel@jim-laptop>


   the email promo below has overview information 
about LinuxCon in Portland this coming week. 


-------- Forwarded Message --------
From: Linux Foundation <events at linux-foundation.org>
To: lf-announce at linux-foundation.org
Subject: [Lf-announce] Only One Week Until LinuxCon - Register Now to
Attend or Watch Live Video Stream
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 14:07:15 -0700

LinuxCon  - The new technical conference for All Matters Linux
September 21-23, 2009
Portland Marriott Waterfront ? Portland, OR
================================================================
LinuxCon is Almost Sold Out ? Register Now to Attend or Watch via Live
Video Stream
================================================================
Register Here: http://events.linuxfoundation.org/component/registrationpro/?func=details&did=1

==========================
Watch it Live via Video Streaming
==========================
The following keynotes and conference sessions will be streaming live
from LinuxCon, September 21-23rd.  Keynote sessions are free to view,
and the entire conference session track is only $99.
Information and Registration:
http://streaming.linux-magazin.de/en/program-linuxcon.htm

Please view our schedule for descriptions for each of these sessions:
http://linuxcon.linuxfoundation.org/meetings

KEYNOTES:
===========
Regarding Clouds, Mainframes, and Desktops...and Linux
Bob Sutor, VP of Open Source and Linux, IBM

The Linux Kernel: Straight From the Source (Roundtable)
Linus Torvalds, Greg Kroah-Hartman, Chris Wright, Jonathan Corbet,
J.E.J. Bottomley, Arjan van de Ven

A Musical Guide to the Future of Linux
Joe Brockmeier, openSUSE Community Manager, Novell

Building a More Agile Web Experience While Driving Down Costs
Noah Broadwater, VP Information Services, Sesame Workshop

How to Shine in a Crowded Field
Imad Sousou, Director of the Open Source Technology Center,  Intel

Let's Get Together: Coordinated Software Releases, The Linux Ecosystem
and the Impact on the Global Marketplace
Mark Shuttleworth, CEO, Canonical

Beyond the Hype: The True Cost of Linux and Open Source (Roundtable)
Matt Asay (Alfresco and CNET Blogger), Noah Broadwater (VP Information
Services, Sesame Workshop), Anthony Roby (Executive
Director-Innovation and Emerging Technologies, Technology
Architecture, Accenture) and David Buckholtz (Vice-President of
Enterprise Technology and Quality
Sony Pictures Entertainment)

The Freedom to Collaborate
Bdale Garbee, Hewlett-Packard

CONFERENCE SESSIONS:
=====================
Keeping Open Source Open - Keith Bergelt, CEO, OIN and Jim Zemlin,
Executive Director, The Linux Foundation

Cloud Applications - A Natural for Open Source - Bernard Golden, CEO,
HyperStratus

Virtually Impossible? Successfully Managing the Virtual Data Center -
Javier Soltero, CEO, Hyperic

Disk wiping: A Story with a Cast of Thousands ? A Cast of Thousands - Gary Smith

The Multi-Source Development Model: The Future of Linux - L. Philip
Odence, VP of Business Development, Black Duck Software

 How to Contribute to the Linux Kernel, and why it Makes Economic
Sense - J.E.J. Bottomley, Novell

Managing Compliance and Governance of Open Source in the Corporation -
John Ellis, Director, Motorola and Esteban Rockett, Senior Counsel,
OSS and Software Licensing , Motorola

Transforming Your Company with Open Source - Kartik Subbarao

 The Truth About Linux in an Economic Downturn - Ross Chevalier, CTO,
Novell Canada

Kernel Regressions and Increasing OS Noise - Christoph Lameter, Kernel
Developer

KSM: A mechanism for improving virtualization density with KVM - Chris
Wright, Principal Software Engineer, Red Hat, Inc.

=================================================================================
Sign up for Live Video Streaming Now:
http://streaming.linux-magazin.de/en/program-linuxcon.htm
==================================================================================
Contact: events at linux-foundation.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.linux-foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/lf-announce
_______________________________________________
Lf-announce mailing list
Lf-announce at lists.linux-foundation.org
https://lists.linux-foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/lf-announce





From bill at wards.net  Thu Sep 17 12:00:04 2009
From: bill at wards.net (bill at wards.net)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 12:00:04 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] NEXT WEEK: PenLUG meeting 09/24/2009
Message-ID: <E1MoMD6-0003XJ-BN@mail.westernweb.com>

PENINSULA LINUX USERS' GROUP (PenLUG) PRESENTS:

   +---------------------------------------------------------------+
   |Date:    |Thursday, September 24, 2009                         |
   |---------+-----------------------------------------------------|
   |Time:    |6:00 - 8:00 PM                                       |
   |---------+-----------------------------------------------------|
   |         |Bayshore Technology Park                             |
   |Location:|1300 Island Drive                                    |
   |         |Redwood City, CA 94065                               |
   |         |Suite 106 - Training Room                            |
   |---------+-----------------------------------------------------|
   |RSVP:    |Facebook: (event coming soon) or mail rsvp at penlug.org|
   +---------------------------------------------------------------+

   Agenda:

     * 6:00 PM Free pizza arrives
     * 6:15 PM Free book giveaways or other prizes
     * 6:30 PM Presentation begins
     * 8:00 PM Meeting ends

  Linux in Schools: Help Yourself by Helping the Underdog

   Schools and Linux should really fit together hand-in-hand. Schools need
   robust, low cost infrastructure, and the Linux community needs more
   widespread adoption to avoid marginalization on the desktop. Schools offer
   the potential to become channels for distribution and socialization for
   Linux.

  Christian Einfeldt

   Einfeldt is a community organizer who has worked for more than 5 years to
   bring Linux to two local public schools, and will draw on this experience
   to talk about what schools need to go further with Linux, and how schools
   can help create greater mindshare for Linux.

RSVP

  Although it is not required, we like to have an idea of how many
  people to expect, so if possible please email rsvp at penlug.org if you
  are planning to attend.

GETTING THERE

  For information on getting to the meeting, please see:
      http://maps.google.com/maps?q=1300+Island+Drive,+Redwood+City,+CA
      http://www.penlug.org/twiki/bin/view/Home/DrivingDirectionsQualys
      http://www.penlug.org/twiki/bin/view/Home/TransitDirectionsQualys

  Traffic on 101 can be pretty bad in the evening, so we encourage you
  to check traffic conditions before driving by dialing 5-1-1 on your
  phone or visiting www.511.org, and if possible to take public transit
  (best bet: bicycle via Caltrain) or carpool to this meeting.

MORE INFORMATION

  See www.penlug.org for more information.


This notice is being sent to the following mailing lists:
	members at penlug.org
	announce at penlug.org
	sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
	balug-talk at lists.balug.org
	svlug at lists.svlug.org
	svevents at yahoogroups.com
	vox at lists.lugod.org

  Please reply to suggest any additions or other changes.



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Thu Sep 17 17:35:42 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 17:35:42 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] About USB partitioning and formatting
In-Reply-To: <1253152736.6415.80.camel@jim-laptop>
References: <1253152736.6415.80.camel@jim-laptop>
Message-ID: <20090918003542.GJ29543@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting jim (jim at well.com):

>    i am, of course, interested in how my surmises 
> are wrong-headed and what might be misinformation 
> or omissions from the linked page. 

The basic advice is good (in that they qualify why they're saying what
they say, and tell you why most repartitioning of NAND flash devices is
likely to be actively harmful.

I covered the same topic back in 2003 in an article I wrote for _Linux
Journal_, back when these drives were a relatively new problem (and some
of us ran still systems with 2.4 kernels):
http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/6867

You'll note that I said I was avoiding re-doing the drive formatting
to cut device fatigue, and because the provided FAT filesystem has
the advantage of ubiquitous support, even though I referred to FAT as 
an "antique disk format".  Detailing why would take a while, but
basically it depends entirely too much on repeated reads/writes to a 
few fixed data structures.  When the 65-byte (or whatever applies) blocks 
those key structures live on wear out, the entire NAND flash drive
becomes landfill.

One could argue that you'd be better off doing a one-time conversion to,
say, JFFS2, which deliberately "levels" the NAND wear over the entire
device.  As the wiki page implies, you'd want to plan your mkfs.jffs2 
approach with some attention to the device's physical characteristics.

I haven't personally played with JFFS or other NAND-appropriate
filesystems, because flash drives are cheap, and the lingua-franca
aspects of FAT are too useful.




From rick at linuxmafia.com  Thu Sep 17 17:39:06 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 17:39:06 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] About USB partitioning and formatting
In-Reply-To: <20090918003542.GJ29543@linuxmafia.com>
References: <1253152736.6415.80.camel@jim-laptop>
	<20090918003542.GJ29543@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <20090918003906.GK29543@linuxmafia.com>

I wrote:

> few fixed data structures.  When the 65-byte (or whatever applies) blocks 
                                        ^

Mind said "4".  Finger typed "5".

Bad finger.




From john_re at fastmail.us  Fri Sep 18 01:36:27 2009
From: john_re at fastmail.us (john_re)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 01:36:27 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Sunday 20th Global Linux Mtg via VOIP - BerkeleyTIP - for
	forwarding
Message-ID: <1253262987.13458.1335452339@webmail.messagingengine.com>

Get a VOIP headset, Install VOIP client SW, & join the global GNU(Linux) meeting this
Sunday Sept 20, 12N-3P Pacific Daylight Savings Time (UTC-8),
 3P-6P Eastern, (7P-10P UTC?)
http://sites.google.com/site/berkeleytip/remote-attendance

Or, come to the physical meeting at the UCBerkeley Free Speech Cafe.

Lots of great, exciting new things for Linux users,
as we start Year 2 of the Global FSW GNU(Linux)/BSD,
Free HW, Free Culture, TIP meetings:
TIP = Talks, Installfest, Project/Programing Party.
Educational, Productive, Social.

Join with the meeting from your home via VOIP,
or create a local meeting at your local college wifi cafe.


=====
Quick announcement.  We're starting up BTIP year 2, for the 2009-10 school year.
http://sites.google.com/site/berkeleytip/home

September Videos: Puppet language, Python mystery talks, CampKDE
http://sites.google.com/site/berkeleytip/talk-videos

This year 2 we'll be focusing on 
1) Inviting UC Berkeley students via poster/flyers
2) Getting local meetings going at California colleges
3) Getting invitations out to more American countries
4) Getting topic groups (OLPC, Python, KDE & GNOME, Ubuntu, etc) having simultaneous meetings.
5) Improving our VOIP server, perhaps upgrading to FreeSwitch.

==
Come join the Sept 20 Sunday meeting, get on voip, chat, discuss the videos, work on your own projects & share them with others, help educate students, & help work on the group projects.

Join #berkeleytip on irc.freenode.net, & we'll help you get your VOIP HW & SW working. :)

Join the mailing lists & say hi, tell us what you are interested in.
http://groups.google.com/group/BerkTIPGlobal/?pli=1

You are invited to forward this message anywhere it would be welcomed. :)



From jim at well.com  Fri Sep 18 10:01:01 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 10:01:01 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] sf-lug meets monday, 20090921,
	from 6 to 8 PM at cafe enchante
Message-ID: <1253293261.6415.140.camel@jim-laptop>


   sf-lug meets this monday, 20090921, from 6 PM 
to 8 PM (or so) at the cafe enchante on geary blvd 
at 26th avenue in SF. 

books will be served, courtesy of Prentice-Hall: 
* The Official Ubuntu Book, fourth edition 
* The Official Ubuntu Server Book 





From mapton at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 15:48:35 2009
From: mapton at gmail.com (Mark Apton)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 15:48:35 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Linux System Administrator needed in San Mateo;
Message-ID: <05e301ca38b2$29f3ad10$6501a8c0@apton9n20j2hg9>

We're at the cutting edge of financial technology, dedicated to innovating
and super-charging how people do business in the private market. We do this
with the help of bright minds who understand how business has been done in
the past, but brave enough to define how business will be done in the
future. We're looking for smart-thinking, fast-moving, and positive-minded
individuals who are ready to take on the financial world by storm. Sound
like you? Check out the position listed below. 

We are in need a; 

System Administrator;

Initial Responsibilities: 

.All in-office IT including public and private networks, telephones,
business e-mail and office records retention .Coordinating with office ISP
to resolve connectivity issues and change configurations .Monitoring of all
datacenter deployments .Contracting new datacenters .Performing all
deployments of new hardware and software in datacenters .Coordinating with
datacenter representatives to diagnose networking and other issues affecting
deployments .Implementing our datacenter backup plans, executing them and
reporting on their status .Implementing our plans for datacenter failover
and redundancy

Job Requirements: 

.Expert knowledge of LAMP (Linux, Apache, MySQL, PHP) deployments - Red Hat
expertise preferred .Expert understanding of TCP/IP for packet-level
diagnostics .Expert understanding of common network hardware such as
IOS-based Cisco devices - Cisco CCNA or higher certification preferred
.Experience implementing backup solutions for datacenter deployments
.Experience configuring multiple datacenters locations redundancy and
failover .Must be local to the San Francisco Bay Area and have own vehicle
for transportation

Full-time regular position.

Please send resumes to;

Mark Apton
Staffing Management Consultant
408 241-1603
mapton at aa-technical-recruiter.com 




From kenshaffer80 at gmail.com  Sat Sep 19 07:18:08 2009
From: kenshaffer80 at gmail.com (Ken Shaffer)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 10:18:08 -0400
Subject: [sf-lug] About USB partitioning and formatting
In-Reply-To: <1253152736.6415.80.camel@jim-laptop>
References: <1253152736.6415.80.camel@jim-laptop>
Message-ID: <dc4b6aae0909190718r54dacfaeodfe4e48dd3b9483b@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Jim,
Last year I tried the manual approach with setting up a bootable usb
stick and got to the point of grub booting, but not being able to see
anything on the stick.  I guessed the initrd didn't have the right devices
to see the stick.  Anyway, I then used an Ubuntu Intrepid live CD to install
to a 4G stick successfully, taking all the defaults -- that's right, I
didn't even change the ext3 to ext2 or the relatime to noatime.  With a
working initrd I can examine, I'll try the manual approach again sometime.
I successfully upgraded the stick to Jaunty after log cleanup and removal of
large packages Gimp and OpenOffice (6 hrs, and needed a 2G stick for
the package downloads).  The stick has been updated at least monthly,
and used occasionally with no problems.  Last week, I did change the mount
to ext2 and noatime, and the article you posted gives me some ideas on
setting up the next one -- should help performance.  I suspect the
filesystem drivers
have an enormous effect on the longevity -- caching and reluctant writes
will reduce the number of writes when directories are copied.
  Another datapoint -- I burned out a new 2G sd card after about 400 meg
just by trying to copy the user directories off a windows machines.
Ken
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From jim at well.com  Sat Sep 19 20:06:32 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 20:06:32 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] About USB partitioning and formatting
In-Reply-To: <dc4b6aae0909190718r54dacfaeodfe4e48dd3b9483b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1253152736.6415.80.camel@jim-laptop>
	<dc4b6aae0909190718r54dacfaeodfe4e48dd3b9483b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1253415992.6415.241.camel@jim-laptop>


   Thanks for the note, Ken. If you get around 
to manually retrying with an inspectable initrd, 
i hope you'll report (what commands to use, what 
return info to expect...). I'd be up for sharing 
the effort, maybe with food or some such. 



On Sat, 2009-09-19 at 10:18 -0400, Ken Shaffer wrote:
> 
> Hi Jim,
> Last year I tried the manual approach with setting up a bootable usb
> stick and got to the point of grub booting, but not being able to see
> anything on the stick.  I guessed the initrd didn't have the right
> devices
> to see the stick.  Anyway, I then used an Ubuntu Intrepid live CD to
> install
> to a 4G stick successfully, taking all the defaults -- that's right, I
> didn't even change the ext3 to ext2 or the relatime to noatime.  With
> a 
> working initrd I can examine, I'll try the manual approach again
> sometime.
> I successfully upgraded the stick to Jaunty after log cleanup and
> removal of
> large packages Gimp and OpenOffice (6 hrs, and needed a 2G stick for 
> the package downloads).  The stick has been updated at least monthly,
> and used occasionally with no problems.  Last week, I did change the
> mount
> to ext2 and noatime, and the article you posted gives me some ideas
> on  
> setting up the next one -- should help performance.  I suspect the
> filesystem drivers
> have an enormous effect on the longevity -- caching and reluctant
> writes
> will reduce the number of writes when directories are copied.
>   Another datapoint -- I burned out a new 2G sd card after about 400
> meg
> just by trying to copy the user directories off a windows machines.
> Ken
> 




From aropoika at earthlink.net  Sun Sep 20 12:12:12 2009
From: aropoika at earthlink.net (BillHill)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 15:12:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [sf-lug] more about USB boot sticks - easy peasy
Message-ID: <2651858.1253473932341.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Hi folks,
I've also been having problems with getting a bootable usb working on my asus eee netbook - this time trying to install easy peasy (to try it out and see just how its different from eeebuntu, which did install from a memory stick).  I found the appropriate easy peasy-1.5.img.iso file online and got it installed on a usb stick using UNetbootin, also downloaded from online - but the install quits when you choose what to do (live 'cd', install, memory test, etc) - apparently others have had this problem too, as per comments online

--billhill, hoping to be at the sflug meeting monday nite if i can find transportation from home in fairfax as my car clutch just died .




From sverma at sfsu.edu  Sun Sep 20 23:16:41 2009
From: sverma at sfsu.edu (Sameer Verma)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 23:16:41 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Ubuntu 10.04 LTS Lucid Lynx announced
Message-ID: <5fb387c70909202316h5ae542ffi2b898abf72b3405e@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l02bhwofEqw

cheers,
Sameer
-- 
Dr. Sameer Verma, Ph.D.
Associate Professor, Information Systems
Director, Center for Business Solutions
San Francisco State University
http://verma.sfsu.edu/
http://cbs.sfsu.edu/
http://is.sfsu.edu/



From mparic at compbizsolutions.com  Sun Sep 20 23:17:17 2009
From: mparic at compbizsolutions.com (Michael Paric)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 23:17:17 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Ubuntu LDAP Admin Interface
Message-ID: <7A068173-1B89-473B-8633-12BC51CE8CE8@compbizsolutions.com>

Grant Bowman mentioned using LDAP at the CAS school in SF; anyone know  
what admin interface is being used? Does it do NT-style Domain Control  
operations too? I couldn't find a really good LDAP interface for  
Ubuntu that would do Linux and Windows authentications which is why I  
used CentOS in my thin client networks. First I used the Webmin module  
(http://www.fsa-blast.org/Webmin/LDAPUsersAndGroups) but found it  
buggy. Configured GOsa which does much more than LDAP but configured  
Linux and Windows authentication in one interface so students and  
teachers would have the same roaming profile whether they logged into  
a Windows workstation or a Linux thin client (https://oss.gonicus.de/labs/gosa/ 
). Any other preferences?



From darose at darose.net  Mon Sep 21 07:29:32 2009
From: darose at darose.net (David Rosenstrauch)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 10:29:32 -0400
Subject: [sf-lug] Ubuntu LDAP Admin Interface
In-Reply-To: <7A068173-1B89-473B-8633-12BC51CE8CE8@compbizsolutions.com>
References: <7A068173-1B89-473B-8633-12BC51CE8CE8@compbizsolutions.com>
Message-ID: <4AB78DCC.3070107@darose.net>

On 09/21/2009 02:17 AM, Michael Paric wrote:
> Grant Bowman mentioned using LDAP at the CAS school in SF; anyone know 
> what admin interface is being used? Does it do NT-style Domain Control 
> operations too? I couldn't find a really good LDAP interface for Ubuntu 
> that would do Linux and Windows authentications which is why I used 
> CentOS in my thin client networks. First I used the Webmin module 
> (http://www.fsa-blast.org/Webmin/LDAPUsersAndGroups) but found it buggy. 
> Configured GOsa which does much more than LDAP but configured Linux and 
> Windows authentication in one interface so students and teachers would 
> have the same roaming profile whether they logged into a Windows 
> workstation or a Linux thin client (https://oss.gonicus.de/labs/gosa/). 
> Any other preferences?

I've been wondering the same (on CentOS, though which distro probably 
doesn't really matter).

We're Linux only here, which probably simplifies things a bit, but so 
far I've been using a GUI tool named "luma" to administer the accounts 
on the LDAP server.  Seems to work decently in administering records of 
objectClass "posixAccount", though I'm not entirely satisfied with it. 
So if you find something better, please post back here.

HTH,

DR



From eric at ericwalstad.com  Mon Sep 21 08:33:07 2009
From: eric at ericwalstad.com (Eric Walstad)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 08:33:07 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] A few of linux-running devices for sale
Message-ID: <c436fcd20909210833o70086a3an23015e975dedf92d@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

I have a few of linux-running devices for sale:
  * Sony Vaio PCG-C1X PictureBook sub-notebook computer[0]
  * Nokia 770 Internet Tablet[1]
  * Soekris net4521 Single Board Computer[2]
I'm also selling a couple of D-Link KVM cables[3] that I purchased but
never used.

I'm just trying to clear out some space and figured someone here might
be interested in what I'm selling.

Thanks,

Eric.
[0] http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130332185934
[1] http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130332204273
[2] http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130332207124
[3] http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130332208982



From a10cuba at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 21 13:36:05 2009
From: a10cuba at hotmail.com (Terry Sanford)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:36:05 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] sf-lug Digest, Vol 44, Issue 23
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1253559602.868.sf-lug@linuxmafia.com>
References: <mailman.3.1253559602.868.sf-lug@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <SNT105-DS1846C591DACDE0E12B867DBADD0@phx.gbl>

email me what you want for nokia internet tablet
terry a10cuba at hotmail.com
 



From einfeldt at gmail.com  Mon Sep 21 19:21:09 2009
From: einfeldt at gmail.com (Christian Einfeldt)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 19:21:09 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] getting around a filter
Message-ID: <4b5781040909211921v15e22ce8pba8996a5df075d26@mail.gmail.com>

Does anyone know how to get around a filter?  I am trying to get access to
Twitter, which is currently blocked by the school's system administrator.  I
tried googling the answer, but when I clicked on the google results, the
individual pages referenced by google are also blocked.

Thanks in advance.
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From david at sterryit.com  Mon Sep 21 19:32:42 2009
From: david at sterryit.com (david at sterryit.com)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 19:32:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sf-lug] getting around a filter
In-Reply-To: <4b5781040909211921v15e22ce8pba8996a5df075d26@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4b5781040909211921v15e22ce8pba8996a5df075d26@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <38586.99.6.134.249.1253586762.squirrel@webmail2.web.com>



>Does anyone know how to get around a
filter? 
 
 I would create an ssh tunnel to another GNU/Linux
host outside the filter. If it's a *nix host you're connecting from, you
just run:
  
  ssh -D 9999 user at host
  
  from a
terminal then set your web browser to use localhost port 9999 as a SOCKS
proxy.
 
 -Dave  
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From aropoika at earthlink.net  Tue Sep 22 10:11:48 2009
From: aropoika at earthlink.net (BillHill)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 10:11:48 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [sf-lug] snag with XP EULA refund from Amazon
Message-ID: <3368037.1253639508599.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Well folks!
With the help of Alex last nite at the sf-lug meeting, I sent Amazon a request for refund on the windows XP that I blew off in the process of installing ubuntu on the TWO Asus eee netbooks that i recently purchased.  Alex says Amazon DID send him a refund when he sent them a similar request (email form on the Amazon website - as we did last night for me).  This morning I get the following reply from amazon - I'm contemplating what my next move should be, to optimize my chances of a refund.  Has anyone else had similar results?, and what did you do? 

--billhill

-----Forwarded Message-----
>From: "Amazon.com Customer Service" <cust.service03 at amazon.com>
>Sent: Sep 22, 2009 4:04 AM
>To: "aropoika at earthlink.net" <aropoika at earthlink.net>
>Subject: Your Amazon.com Order #103-8495986-8031400
>
>Hello,
>
>I apologize for any misunderstanding.
>
>The OEM EULA that is published on machines is an agreement between the OEM and the end user, that?s part of the way things work in OEM. It typically says something along the lines of ?By using the software you accept these terms. If you do not accept them, do not use the software. Instead contact the manufacturer or installer to determine their return policy for a refund or credit?. 
>
>In this case, I kindly request you to contact the manufacturer to see if they can help you. You can the manufacturer "Asus":
>
>Asus:
>
>http://www.as-usa.com/
>
>Telephone: 502-995-0883 (select option 3)
>
>Fax: 502-933-8713
>
>Email: tsd at asus.com
>
>If you've contacted the manufacturer and they can't help, please send us a summary of that correspondence and we'll work on another solution.
>
>Please visit the following link to provide the information we 
>requested:
>
>http://www.amazon.com/rsvp-mi?c=aqwuhthg3424920917&q=o2r
>
>I hope this information helps. We look forward to seeing you again soon.
>
>Please let us know if this e-mail resolved your question:
>
>If yes, click here: 
>http://www.amazon.com/rsvp-y?c=hqwuxthg3424920918
>If not, click here: 
>http://www.amazon.com/rsvp-n?c=hqwuxthg3424920918
>
>Please note: this e-mail was sent from an address that cannot accept incoming e-mail. 
>
>To contact us about an unrelated issue, please visit the Help section of our web site.
>
>Best regards,
>
>Vasanth S.
>Amazon.com
>We're Building Earth's Most Customer-Centric Company
>http://www.amazon.com/your-account
>
>---- Original message: ----
>---------------
>09/21/09 20:24:51
>Your Name:William Hill
>Order Id: 103-8495986-8031400
>Comments:According to the windows XP  User License Agreement (EULA), I have no intention of using windows XP, and would like a refund for the cost of the windows operating system.
>---------------
>



From andrewevansc at gmail.com  Tue Sep 22 11:26:15 2009
From: andrewevansc at gmail.com (Andrew E)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 11:26:15 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] getting around a filter
In-Reply-To: <4b5781040909211921v15e22ce8pba8996a5df075d26@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4b5781040909211921v15e22ce8pba8996a5df075d26@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bd7bad4c0909221126y54fb5bcdk7cc53d803b6cd376@mail.gmail.com>

you can also try: http://www.proxify.com although if they know what's what,
then that'll also be blocked. If Dave's port changing method works, that's
awesome because I'm sure all their blocking is watching port 80.

The real question is: why the hell would you want to use Tweeter?

On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 7:21 PM, Christian Einfeldt <einfeldt at gmail.com>wrote:

> Does anyone know how to get around a filter?  I am trying to get access to
> Twitter, which is currently blocked by the school's system administrator.  I
> tried googling the answer, but when I clicked on the google results, the
> individual pages referenced by google are also blocked.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>
>
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From grantbow at gmail.com  Tue Sep 22 12:58:26 2009
From: grantbow at gmail.com (Grant Bowman)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 12:58:26 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Server Hosting Recommendations
Message-ID: <317e39f0909221258h7a9b8e9cya2e49a5793921d95@mail.gmail.com>

A friend is looking for west coast hosting recommendations.  He wants
to run a dedicated server with multiple IPs and a modestly fat pipe.
What can you suggest?

Thank you,

Grant Bowman
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam



From maiwurd at gmail.com  Tue Sep 22 13:35:21 2009
From: maiwurd at gmail.com (mai wurd)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 13:35:21 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] sf-lug Digest, Vol 44, Issue 24
In-Reply-To: <mailman.5.1253646002.23693.sf-lug@linuxmafia.com>
References: <mailman.5.1253646002.23693.sf-lug@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <fb3a04160909221335m713dc8fdlcbae6708e5d26ccc@mail.gmail.com>

re: Amazon refund for Windows
I too was given the runaround. I replied that the EULA stated that the
vendor you purchased the computer w/OEM OS will refund the cost of the
software.
They promptly replied and informed me that a credit will be applied to my
credit card account.

If all else fails call customer service...

Br at d

On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 12:00 PM, <sf-lug-request at linuxmafia.com> wrote:

> Send sf-lug mailing list submissions to
>        sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>        http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>        sf-lug-request at linuxmafia.com
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>        sf-lug-owner at linuxmafia.com
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of sf-lug digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: sf-lug Digest, Vol 44, Issue 23 (Terry Sanford)
>   2. getting around a filter (Christian Einfeldt)
>   3. Re: getting around a filter (david at sterryit.com)
>   4. snag with XP EULA refund from Amazon (BillHill)
>   5. Re: getting around a filter (Andrew E)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:36:05 -0700
> From: "Terry Sanford" <a10cuba at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [sf-lug] sf-lug Digest, Vol 44, Issue 23
> To: <sf-lug at linuxmafia.com>
> Message-ID: <SNT105-DS1846C591DACDE0E12B867DBADD0 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>        reply-type=original
>
> email me what you want for nokia internet tablet
> terry a10cuba at hotmail.com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 19:21:09 -0700
> From: Christian Einfeldt <einfeldt at gmail.com>
> Subject: [sf-lug] getting around a filter
> To: sf-lug <sf-lug at linuxmafia.com>
> Message-ID:
>        <4b5781040909211921v15e22ce8pba8996a5df075d26 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Does anyone know how to get around a filter?  I am trying to get access to
> Twitter, which is currently blocked by the school's system administrator.
>  I
> tried googling the answer, but when I clicked on the google results, the
> individual pages referenced by google are also blocked.
>
> Thanks in advance.
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> URL: <
> http://linuxmafia.com/pipermail/sf-lug/attachments/20090921/7cd6bea8/attachment.html
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 19:32:42 -0700 (PDT)
> From: david at sterryit.com
> Subject: Re: [sf-lug] getting around a filter
> To: "Christian Einfeldt" <einfeldt at gmail.com>
> Cc: sf-lug <sf-lug at linuxmafia.com>
> Message-ID: <38586.99.6.134.249.1253586762.squirrel at webmail2.web.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
>
> >Does anyone know how to get around a
> filter?
>
>  I would create an ssh tunnel to another GNU/Linux
> host outside the filter. If it's a *nix host you're connecting from, you
> just run:
>
>  ssh -D 9999 user at host
>
>  from a
> terminal then set your web browser to use localhost port 9999 as a SOCKS
> proxy.
>
>  -Dave
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> http://linuxmafia.com/pipermail/sf-lug/attachments/20090921/e3650d50/attachment-0001.htm
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 10:11:48 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
> From: BillHill <aropoika at earthlink.net>
> Subject: [sf-lug] snag with XP EULA refund from Amazon
> To: SF-LUG <sf-lug at linuxmafia.com>
> Message-ID:
>        <
> 3368037.1253639508599.JavaMail.root at mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Well folks!
> With the help of Alex last nite at the sf-lug meeting, I sent Amazon a
> request for refund on the windows XP that I blew off in the process of
> installing ubuntu on the TWO Asus eee netbooks that i recently purchased.
>  Alex says Amazon DID send him a refund when he sent them a similar request
> (email form on the Amazon website - as we did last night for me).  This
> morning I get the following reply from amazon - I'm contemplating what my
> next move should be, to optimize my chances of a refund.  Has anyone else
> had similar results?, and what did you do?
>
> --billhill
>
> -----Forwarded Message-----
> >From: "Amazon.com Customer Service" <cust.service03 at amazon.com>
> >Sent: Sep 22, 2009 4:04 AM
> >To: "aropoika at earthlink.net" <aropoika at earthlink.net>
> >Subject: Your Amazon.com Order #103-8495986-8031400
> >
> >Hello,
> >
> >I apologize for any misunderstanding.
> >
> >The OEM EULA that is published on machines is an agreement between the OEM
> and the end user, that?s part of the way things work in OEM. It typically
> says something along the lines of ?By using the software you accept these
> terms. If you do not accept them, do not use the software. Instead contact
> the manufacturer or installer to determine their return policy for a refund
> or credit?.
> >
> >In this case, I kindly request you to contact the manufacturer to see if
> they can help you. You can the manufacturer "Asus":
> >
> >Asus:
> >
> >http://www.as-usa.com/
> >
> >Telephone: 502-995-0883 (select option 3)
> >
> >Fax: 502-933-8713
> >
> >Email: tsd at asus.com
> >
> >If you've contacted the manufacturer and they can't help, please send us a
> summary of that correspondence and we'll work on another solution.
> >
> >Please visit the following link to provide the information we
> >requested:
> >
> >http://www.amazon.com/rsvp-mi?c=aqwuhthg3424920917&q=o2r
> >
> >I hope this information helps. We look forward to seeing you again soon.
> >
> >Please let us know if this e-mail resolved your question:
> >
> >If yes, click here:
> >http://www.amazon.com/rsvp-y?c=hqwuxthg3424920918
> >If not, click here:
> >http://www.amazon.com/rsvp-n?c=hqwuxthg3424920918
> >
> >Please note: this e-mail was sent from an address that cannot accept
> incoming e-mail.
> >
> >To contact us about an unrelated issue, please visit the Help section of
> our web site.
> >
> >Best regards,
> >
> >Vasanth S.
> >Amazon.com
> >We're Building Earth's Most Customer-Centric Company
> >http://www.amazon.com/your-account
> >
> >---- Original message: ----
> >---------------
> >09/21/09 20:24:51
> >Your Name:William Hill
> >Order Id: 103-8495986-8031400
> >Comments:According to the windows XP  User License Agreement (EULA), I
> have no intention of using windows XP, and would like a refund for the cost
> of the windows operating system.
> >---------------
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 11:26:15 -0700
> From: Andrew E <andrewevansc at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [sf-lug] getting around a filter
> To: Christian Einfeldt <einfeldt at gmail.com>
> Cc: sf-lug <sf-lug at linuxmafia.com>
> Message-ID:
>        <bd7bad4c0909221126y54fb5bcdk7cc53d803b6cd376 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> you can also try: http://www.proxify.com although if they know what's
> what,
> then that'll also be blocked. If Dave's port changing method works, that's
> awesome because I'm sure all their blocking is watching port 80.
>
> The real question is: why the hell would you want to use Tweeter?
>
> On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 7:21 PM, Christian Einfeldt <einfeldt at gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > Does anyone know how to get around a filter?  I am trying to get access
> to
> > Twitter, which is currently blocked by the school's system administrator.
>  I
> > tried googling the answer, but when I clicked on the google results, the
> > individual pages referenced by google are also blocked.
> >
> > Thanks in advance.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > sf-lug mailing list
> > sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> > http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
> >
> >
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>
>
> End of sf-lug Digest, Vol 44, Issue 24
> **************************************
>



-- 
Always think about positive affirmations before going to sleep. This spirit
guides our subconscious as we sleep and creates our reality.
Giving thanks, for that which has not happened yet, allows a spirit/life
pattern to manifest in our lives.
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From slash5toaster at gmail.com  Tue Sep 22 13:47:23 2009
From: slash5toaster at gmail.com (Clyde Jones)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 13:47:23 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] getting around a filter
In-Reply-To: <4b5781040909211921v15e22ce8pba8996a5df075d26@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4b5781040909211921v15e22ce8pba8996a5df075d26@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <294686ad0909221347h437bcf10o9f061ba4c92d889c@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 19:21, Christian Einfeldt <einfeldt at gmail.com> wrote:
> Does anyone know how to get around a filter?? I am trying to get access to
> Twitter, which is currently blocked by the school's system administrator.? I
> tried googling the answer, but when I clicked on the google results, the
> individual pages referenced by google are also blocked.
>


try something like http://anonymouse.org/ or http://hidemyass.com


-- 
We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With
our thoughts, we make the world.
-Buddha



From jim at well.com  Tue Sep 22 14:36:37 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 14:36:37 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] Server Hosting Recommendations
In-Reply-To: <317e39f0909221258h7a9b8e9cya2e49a5793921d95@mail.gmail.com>
References: <317e39f0909221258h7a9b8e9cya2e49a5793921d95@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1253655397.6591.17.camel@jim-laptop>


check out san francisco community colocation project 
http://www.sfccp.net 



On Tue, 2009-09-22 at 12:58 -0700, Grant Bowman wrote:
> A friend is looking for west coast hosting recommendations.  He wants
> to run a dedicated server with multiple IPs and a modestly fat pipe.
> What can you suggest?
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Grant Bowman
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam
> 
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
> 




From mikkimc at earthlink.net  Wed Sep 23 00:37:50 2009
From: mikkimc at earthlink.net (Mikki McGee)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 00:37:50 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] any Black and white printers install Jaunty out of box?
Message-ID: <4AB9D04E.3020601@earthlink.net>

Hi;

    Has anyone installed a b&w printer, particularly a laser printer, 
"out of the box?" 

Bless All

Mikki
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From sverma at sfsu.edu  Wed Sep 23 10:20:31 2009
From: sverma at sfsu.edu (Sameer Verma)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 10:20:31 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] any Black and white printers install Jaunty out of box?
In-Reply-To: <4AB9D04E.3020601@earthlink.net>
References: <4AB9D04E.3020601@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5fb387c70909231020i2cfa225er625d0bc447b1de31@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 12:37 AM, Mikki McGee <mikkimc at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Hi;
>
> ??? Has anyone installed a b&w printer, particularly a laser printer, "out
> of the box?"
>
> Bless All
>
> Mikki
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>
>

My HP Laserjet 1300 works out of the box.

Sameer
-- 
Dr. Sameer Verma, Ph.D.
Associate Professor, Information Systems
Director, Center for Business Solutions
San Francisco State University
http://verma.sfsu.edu/
http://cbs.sfsu.edu/
http://is.sfsu.edu/



From nathan at foo-o-rama.com  Wed Sep 23 10:29:53 2009
From: nathan at foo-o-rama.com (Nathan Hoover)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 10:29:53 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] any Black and white printers install Jaunty out of box?
In-Reply-To: <5fb387c70909231020i2cfa225er625d0bc447b1de31@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4AB9D04E.3020601@earthlink.net>
	<5fb387c70909231020i2cfa225er625d0bc447b1de31@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <22a0b8070909231029p4a81ba16i714f4470388a2654@mail.gmail.com>

I have used three lasers very successfully with Ubuntu - although I believe
it did require installing a package or two using apt-get (or Synaptic if you
prefer the GUI).

They were -

Samsung CLP-300 (current printer)
Konica Minolta Magicolor 2400W (previous one)
Samsung ML-1710

All with CUPS, shared out so that my Macs can print as well.

Regards,
Nathan

On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 10:20 AM, Sameer Verma <sverma at sfsu.edu> wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 12:37 AM, Mikki McGee <mikkimc at earthlink.net>
> wrote:
> > Hi;
> >
> >     Has anyone installed a b&w printer, particularly a laser printer,
> "out
> > of the box?"
> >
> > Bless All
> >
> > Mikki
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > sf-lug mailing list
> > sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> > http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
> >
> >
>
> My HP Laserjet 1300 works out of the box.
>
> Sameer
> --
> Dr. Sameer Verma, Ph.D.
> Associate Professor, Information Systems
> Director, Center for Business Solutions
> San Francisco State University
> http://verma.sfsu.edu/
> http://cbs.sfsu.edu/
> http://is.sfsu.edu/
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>
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From a_kleider at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 23 14:39:14 2009
From: a_kleider at yahoo.com (Alex Kleider)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 14:39:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [sf-lug] getting around a filter
In-Reply-To: <38586.99.6.134.249.1253586762.squirrel@webmail2.web.com>
Message-ID: <624952.65069.qm@web110604.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Christian,

I've been very interested in SSH tunnelling and the ability to do the sort of thing you needed. With Grant's help I've been able to consolidate my thoughts as to how this is done. The following is the result which might be of help to you. To give credit where credit is due, Dave did get the ball rolling with his message.
Assuming that you have a computer which you can access from the outside and which has unrestricted access to the internet and that it can be reached at IP address <home>
and that you are sitting at the command line of a Kipp linux computer 
type:
 $ ssh -D9999 christian@<home> 
Then move to the browser (Firefox) of the same Kipp computer and configure it as follows:
Edit > Prefs > Advanced > Network Connections Settings : Manual proxy config-  SOCKS Host :   localhost      Port:  9999
After that is done, your browser will do it's thing via <home> and thus effectively be out from under Kipp restrictions.
The -D option specifies a local "dynamic" application-level port forwarding and is a shortcut for the -L and -R options often seen.
I got interested in this sort of thing when faced with wanting to configure cups on a computer that was not running X-window. One of many ways of solving the problem was to use another computer and do the following:
ssh -f -L 3000:localhost:631 root at printserver-ip sleep 2d
and then pointing the browser (same machine) to http://localhost:3000
..again, to give credit where credit is due: this solution was provided to a post of mine on LinuxQuestions.org

cheers,
alex


a_kleider at yahoo.com


--- On Mon, 9/21/09, david at sterryit.com <david at sterryit.com> wrote:

> From: david at sterryit.com <david at sterryit.com>
> Subject: Re: [sf-lug] getting around a filter
> To: "Christian Einfeldt" <einfeldt at gmail.com>
> Cc: "sf-lug" <sf-lug at linuxmafia.com>
> Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 7:32 PM
> >Does anyone know how to get around a
> filter? 
>  
>  I would create an ssh tunnel to
> another GNU/Linux
> host outside the filter. If it's a *nix host you're
> connecting from, you
> just run:
>   
>   ssh -D 9999 user at host
>   
>   from a
> terminal then set your web browser to use localhost port
> 9999 as a SOCKS
> proxy.
>  
>  -Dave  
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
> 
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
> 


      



From jim at well.com  Wed Sep 23 18:46:47 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 18:46:47 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] BayPIGgies meeting Thursday September 24, 2009: Parrot VM
Message-ID: <1253756807.6445.20.camel@jim-laptop>


BayPIGgies meeting Thursday September 24, 2009: Parrot VM 


Tonight's talk is 
* Parrot VM 
by Allison Randal 


Meetings start with a Newbie Nugget, a short discussion of an 
essential Python feature, specially for those new to Python. 
Tonight's Newbie Nugget: List Comprehension 

LOCATION 
Symantec Corporation
Symantec Vcafe
350 Ellis Street
Mountain View, CA 94043
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&fb=1&split=1&gl=us&ei=w6i_Sfr6MZmQsQOzlv0v&hl=en&t=h&msa=0&msid=116202735295394761637.00046550c09ff3d96bff1&ll=37.397693,-122.053707&spn=0.002902,0.004828&z=18

BayPIGgies meeting information is available at 
http://baypiggies.net/new/plone



------------------------ Agenda ------------------------
 
..... 7:30 PM ...........................
General hubbub, inventory end-of-meeting announcements, any 
first-minute announcements. 


..... 7:35 PM to 7:45 PM ................

Newbie Nugget: List Comprehension 


..... 7:45 PM to 8:45 PM ................

Title: Parrot VM 
by Allison Randal 

The Parrot virtual machine hit 1.0 in March of this year, with 
a second production release (1.4) in July. A virtual machine 
like no other, Parrot targets dynamic languages like Python. It 
hosts a powerful suite of compiler tools tailored to dynamic 
languages and a next generation regular expression engine. This 
talk explores Pynie, an implementation of Python 3 on Parrot, 
with a brief explanation of the overall architecture of Parrot.


..... 8:45 PM to 9:20 PM  ................
Mapping and Random Access

Mapping is a rapid-fire audience announcement of topics that 
the announcers are interested in. 

Random Access follows immediately to allow follow up individually 
on the announcements and other topics of interest.





From jim at well.com  Thu Sep 24 10:50:45 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 10:50:45 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [Fwd: Linux System Administrator needed in San Mateo;]
Message-ID: <1253814645.6445.80.camel@jim-laptop>



We're at the cutting edge of financial technology, dedicated to innovating
and super-charging how people do business in the private market. We do this
with the help of bright minds who understand how business has been done in
the past, but brave enough to define how business will be done in the
future. We're looking for smart-thinking, fast-moving, and positive-minded
individuals who are ready to take on the financial world by storm. Sound
like you? Check out the position listed below. 

We are in need a; 

System Administrator;

Initial Responsibilities: 

.All in-office IT including public and private networks, telephones,
business e-mail and office records retention .Coordinating with office ISP
to resolve connectivity issues and change configurations .Monitoring of all
datacenter deployments .Contracting new datacenters .Performing all
deployments of new hardware and software in datacenters .Coordinating with
datacenter representatives to diagnose networking and other issues affecting
deployments .Implementing our datacenter backup plans, executing them and
reporting on their status .Implementing our plans for datacenter failover
and redundancy

Job Requirements: 

.Expert knowledge of LAMP (Linux, Apache, MySQL, PHP) deployments - Red Hat
expertise preferred .Expert understanding of TCP/IP for packet-level
diagnostics .Expert understanding of common network hardware such as
IOS-based Cisco devices - Cisco CCNA or higher certification preferred
.Experience implementing backup solutions for datacenter deployments
.Experience configuring multiple datacenters locations redundancy and
failover .Must be local to the San Francisco Bay Area and have own vehicle
for transportation

Full-time regular position.

Salary:  $80,000 - $95,000 plus comprehensive benefits package including
medical, dental, vision, life insurance, disability, and 401k and pre-ipo
stock. 

Please send resumes to;

Mark Apton
Staffing Management Consultant
408 241-1603
mapton at aa-technical-recruiter.com 





From siddhartha at siddharthajain.net  Thu Sep 24 16:40:11 2009
From: siddhartha at siddharthajain.net (Siddhartha Jain)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 16:40:11 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] strace logging to intercept guest OS calls
Message-ID: <c111b34b0909241640g14d32e06y3cd61921ddc52949@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I am running a proprietary OS in an emulator on Linux (2.6.18-164 x64
CentOS 5.3). What I want to do is intercept the system calls that the
proprietary OS makes while generating a password hash. So I attach
strace to the emulator's PID before running the password generation
command but strace logs only show me a few clock_gettime() calls after
the read()/write() calls for inputting the password from keyboard and
echo-ing it on STDOUT. Where do all the calls go that the proprietary
OS uses to calculate the password hash?

Thanks!



From charles-henri.gros at m4x.org  Thu Sep 24 16:43:58 2009
From: charles-henri.gros at m4x.org (Charles-Henri Gros)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 16:43:58 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] strace logging to intercept guest OS calls
In-Reply-To: <c111b34b0909241640g14d32e06y3cd61921ddc52949@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c111b34b0909241640g14d32e06y3cd61921ddc52949@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4ABC043E.5050408@m4x.org>

Siddhartha Jain wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I am running a proprietary OS in an emulator on Linux (2.6.18-164 x64
> CentOS 5.3). What I want to do is intercept the system calls that the
> proprietary OS makes while generating a password hash. So I attach
> strace to the emulator's PID before running the password generation
> command but strace logs only show me a few clock_gettime() calls after
> the read()/write() calls for inputting the password from keyboard and
> echo-ing it on STDOUT. Where do all the calls go that the proprietary
> OS uses to calculate the password hash?
>   
Why would you need system calls to compute a password hash?

-- 
Charles-Henri




From nbs at sonic.net  Thu Sep 24 17:57:16 2009
From: nbs at sonic.net (Bill Kendrick)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 17:57:16 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] strace logging to intercept guest OS calls
In-Reply-To: <4ABC043E.5050408@m4x.org>
References: <c111b34b0909241640g14d32e06y3cd61921ddc52949@mail.gmail.com>
	<4ABC043E.5050408@m4x.org>
Message-ID: <20090925005716.GA9625@sonic.net>

On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 04:43:58PM -0700, Charles-Henri Gros wrote:
> Why would you need system calls to compute a password hash?

Perhaps ltrace might help, if there are library calls being made?

-bill!



From siddhartha at siddharthajain.net  Thu Sep 24 18:08:54 2009
From: siddhartha at siddharthajain.net (Siddhartha Jain)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 18:08:54 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] strace logging to intercept guest OS calls
In-Reply-To: <20090925005716.GA9625@sonic.net>
References: <c111b34b0909241640g14d32e06y3cd61921ddc52949@mail.gmail.com>
	<4ABC043E.5050408@m4x.org> <20090925005716.GA9625@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <c111b34b0909241808m7271bde3udeda11c7f25923d5@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for that pointer. I assumed that eventually all calls would get
translated into lower level system calls and be logged by strace. I
tried ltrace but unfortunately the emulator crashes when I run it with
ltrace or try to attach ltrace to the pid later.

Anyways, I got what I was looking for :) The proprietary OS's salt
wasn't random as I thought.

Thanks!



On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 5:57 PM, Bill Kendrick <nbs at sonic.net> wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 04:43:58PM -0700, Charles-Henri Gros wrote:
>> Why would you need system calls to compute a password hash?
>
> Perhaps ltrace might help, if there are library calls being made?
>
> -bill!
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>



From jim at well.com  Fri Sep 25 09:28:40 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 09:28:40 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] [JOB POSTING] Sr Linux Systems Administrator, san mateo,
	$75 per	hour
Message-ID: <1253896120.7898.69.camel@jim-laptop>


 
Sr Linux Systems Administrator (contract), San Mateo, CA., $75.00/hr
 
Description: 
Gazillion Entertainment is a developer, publisher and operator of
massively multiplayer online games and services for wide audiences. Our
team of world-class creative talent is comprised of leaders from the
videogame, entertainment, and technology industries who are focused on
developing  and supporting a new generation of superior quality,
massively entertaining online properties.

Responsibilities:
We are seeking a Contract Sr Linux Systems Administrator to be a key
member of the IT/Game Operations Team. Assist with Linux server
architecture, deployment, integration, maintenance, monitoring and
support. 
The day to day tasks include remote configuration, automated
installations, systems integration and architecture, troubleshooting,
hardening and deployment of Linux and Linux-based application servers on
company administered hardware as well as remote datacenter hardware.

Requirements:
? Previous production datacenter (customer facing) experience a must
? Experience with administering Linux:  RedHat/CentOS
? Strong shell and perl scripting skills on Linux systems
? Hands-on support: mostly done remotely, for lab machines, development
machines, and production machines in a variety of environments
? Creation and deployment of configurations, system architecture and
integration, maintenance, monitoring, troubleshooting, system hardening
and data security, data backup; phone/email correspondence with local
and remote staff
? System administration for open source application servers and
services: Apache/Tomcat, SSH, NFS, MySQL, PHP, SMTP, vsftpd, etc.
? Thorough understanding of the TCP/IP Suite (TCP, UDP, IP, ICMP, etc.)
as well SNMP
? Thorough understanding of and ability to maintain custom kickstart and
yum repositories
? Thorough understanding of RPM, rpmbuild and custom package creation
and management
? Continually strive to automate and streamline operations and
maintenance processes by identifying areas of improvement, writing
scripts, and documentation
? Excellent communication, organization, project prioritization, and
time management skills
? Keen troubleshooting skills
? Experience with IBM and HP production grade blade and rack mount
server and SAN hardware, including associated Linux management tools
? Experience with advanced installation, administration and patch
maintenance of Linux based applications (such as MySQL, Apache and PHP)
? Experience with VMware virtualized Linux servers a huge plus
? Experience with TIBCO EMS a plus
? Experience with ControlTier a plus
? Prior roles working with managed data center providers for equipment
deployment beneficial
? Ability to manage multiple projects simultaneously, and without direct
supervision
? Willingness to work after hours and weekends as required by running a
production environment; willing to be "on call" during these hours as
needs arise.

Contact: Kirk Podawiltz <kirk.podawiltz at gazillion.com>

Apply:
http://tbe.taleo.net/NA5/ats/careers/requisition.jsp?org=NR2B&cws=1&rid=104 





From Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu  Wed Sep 30 23:16:28 2009
From: Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu (Michael Paoli)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 23:16:28 -0700
Subject: [sf-lug] BALUG: Tu 2009-10-20 Understanding the Power of Hybrid
	Hosting:	Dedicated Plus Clouds by Paul Lancaster of GoGrid/ServePath
Message-ID: <20090930231628.34913j1g2bg6fgu8@webmail.rawbw.com>

BALUG: Tu 2009-10-20 Understanding the Power of Hybrid Hosting:
Dedicated Plus Clouds by Paul Lancaster of GoGrid/ServePath

Bay Area Linux User Group (BALUG)
Tuesday 6:30 P.M. 2009-10-20

Please RSVP if you're planning to come (see further below).

For our 2009-10-20 BALUG meeting, we're excited to present:

Understanding the Power of Hybrid Hosting: Dedicated Plus Clouds by
Paul Lancaster of GoGrid[1]/ServePath[2]

Cloud Computing isn't for everyone, neither is leasing dedicated server
environments. However, when you combine the two, the end result is a
hosting solution that will make your business successful. We call it
Hybrid Hosting. Capitalizing on the dynamic, scalability of GoGrid's
Cloud Hosting and the robust, high I/O throughput of dedicated
infrastructure, Hybrid Hosting is a way to manage complex,
high-availability infrastructures that meet demand, performance and
cost concerns.

Paul Lancaster is one of the founding employees of ServePath/GoGrid and
leads Business Development. Paul has been in the Internet industry for
the past 15 years working for software and services companies in
technical and business roles. Paul enjoys playing guitar when he is not
at his keyboard or spending time with his 6 year old daughter.

GoGrid[1]: Blog[3] Wiki[4] Twitter[5]

1. http://www.gogrid.com/
2. http://www.servepath.com/
3. http://blog.gogrid.com/
4. http://wiki.gogrid.com/
5. http://twitter.com/gogrid

So, if you'd like to join us please RSVP:

            rsvp at balug.org

**Why RSVP??**

Well, don't worry we won't turn you away, but the RSVPs really help the
Four Seas Restaurant plan the meal and they help ensure that we'll be
able to eat upstairs in the private banquet room.

Meeting Details...

            6:30pm
            Tuesday, October 20th, 2009 2009-10-20

            Four Seas Restaurant http://www.fourseasr.com/
            731 Grant Ave.
            San Francisco, CA 94108
            Easy PARKING:
            Portsmouth Square Garage at 733 Kearny http://www.sfpsg.com/

Cost: The meetings are always free, but dinner is $13

Feedback on our publicity/announcements (e.g. contacts or lists where we
should get our information out that we're not presently reaching, or
things we should do differently): publicity-feedback at balug.org

http://www.balug.org/