From jim@well.com Mon Dec 26 11:27:30 2005 Received: from smtp.well.com ([206.80.4.7]:40903) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1Eqy03-0006MR-9A for ; Mon, 26 Dec 2005 11:27:29 -0800 Received: from [192.168.1.101] (dsl081-061-186.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.61.186]) by smtp.well.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id jBQJRCUC009086 for ; Mon, 26 Dec 2005 11:27:13 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com Message-Id: From: jim stockford Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 11:29:25 -0800 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.87.1, clamav-milter version 0.87 on smtp.well.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of jim@well.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 206.80.4.7 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jim@well.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=4.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-15-551859033 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [sf-lug] Splunk Camp SysAdmin January 14 X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 19:27:30 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 3056 Lines: 111 --Apple-Mail-15-551859033 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed > > Splunk, creators of the first IT data search software for > troubleshooting, is sponsoring Camp SysAdmin on January 14th in San > Francisco. As our product runs on Linux, we wanted to invite the > members of the SF-LUG to attend. Attendance is free, but you must > register in advance. > > Thank you! > Diane Hagglund > diane@splunk.com > > BayLISA, USENIX, TechTarget,SysAdmin Magazine and Splunk are hosting > Camp SysAdmin on January 14th and you=92re invited to attend. Camp = Sys > Admin is a full day devoted to talking about troubleshooting problems > with enterprise applications (especially LAMP and J2EE), VoIP, email > and on-demand. The format of the day will be very interactive, with > sessions that will be moderated by some of the best in the business, > including: > - Ethan Galstad, father of Nagios > - Eric Allman, Chief Science Officer, Sendmail > - Richard Whitehead, Chief Technical Officer, Clarus Systems > - Brian Aker, Director of Architecture, MySQL > > We=92ll end the day with a wine party so we can talk more about = whatever > was most interesting during the day. As a sponsor of this event, > Splunk will be there talking about splunking with attendees. > > Attendance is free, although space is limited. You can reserve your > spot by registering at: http://www.splunk.com/index.php/camp --Apple-Mail-15-551859033 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Times New Roman> > Splunk, creators of the first IT data search software for > troubleshooting, is sponsoring Camp SysAdmin on January 14th in San > Francisco. As our product runs on Linux, we wanted to invite the > members of the SF-LUG to attend. Attendance is free, but you must > register in advance. > > Thank you! > Diane Hagglund > diane@splunk.com > > BayLISA, USENIX, TechTarget,SysAdmin Magazine and Splunk are hosting > Camp SysAdmin on January 14th and you=92re invited to attend. Camp Sys > Admin is a full day devoted to talking about troubleshooting problems > with enterprise applications (especially LAMP and J2EE), VoIP, email > and on-demand. The format of the day will be very interactive, with > sessions that will be moderated by some of the best in the business, > including: > - Ethan Galstad, father of Nagios > - Eric Allman, Chief Science Officer, Sendmail > - Richard Whitehead, Chief Technical Officer, Clarus Systems > - Brian Aker, Director of Architecture, MySQL > > We=92ll end the day with a wine party so we can talk more about whatever > was most interesting during the day. As a sponsor of this event, > Splunk will be there talking about splunking with attendees. > > Attendance is free, although space is limited. You can reserve your > spot by registering at: http://www.splunk.com/index.php/camp = --Apple-Mail-15-551859033-- From jim@well.com Mon Dec 26 12:38:08 2005 Received: from smtp.well.com ([206.80.4.7]:45446) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1Eqz6G-0006fH-BU for ; Mon, 26 Dec 2005 12:38:08 -0800 Received: from [192.168.1.101] (dsl081-061-186.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.61.186]) by smtp.well.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id jBQKbfgw007748; Mon, 26 Dec 2005 12:37:42 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Message-Id: From: jim stockford Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 12:39:54 -0800 To: jim stockford X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.87.1/1218/Mon Dec 26 05:46:59 2005 on smtp.well.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of jim@well.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 206.80.4.7 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jim@well.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-16-556087801 Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Splunk Camp SysAdmin January 14 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Cc: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 20:38:09 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 4517 Lines: 172 --Apple-Mail-16-556087801 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed sorry i didn't figure this out when i sent the other message: It's in San Francisco on the corner of Mission and 3rd Streets! January 14, 2006 Diablo Grande Wine Gallery 669 Mission Street, San Francisco, CA 94105 <------ www.diablogrande.com/winegallery On Dec 26, 2005, at 11:29 AM, jim stockford wrote: > > > > > Splunk, creators of the first IT data search software for > > troubleshooting, is sponsoring Camp SysAdmin on January 14th in San > > Francisco. As our product runs on Linux, we wanted to invite the > > members of the SF-LUG to attend. Attendance is free, but you must > > register in advance. > > > > Thank you! > > Diane Hagglund > > diane@splunk.com > > > > BayLISA, USENIX, TechTarget,SysAdmin Magazine and Splunk are hosting > > Camp SysAdmin on January 14th and you=92re invited to attend. Camp = Sys > > Admin is a full day devoted to talking about troubleshooting = problems > > with enterprise applications (especially LAMP and J2EE), VoIP, email > > and on-demand. The format of the day will be very interactive, with > > sessions that will be moderated by some of the best in the business, > > including: > > - Ethan Galstad, father of Nagios > > - Eric Allman, Chief Science Officer, Sendmail > > - Richard Whitehead, Chief Technical Officer, Clarus Systems > > - Brian Aker, Director of Architecture, MySQL > > > > We=92ll end the day with a wine party so we can talk more about=20 > whatever > > was most interesting during the day. As a sponsor of this event, > > Splunk will be there talking about splunking with attendees. > > > > Attendance is free, although space is limited. You can reserve your > > spot by registering at: http://www.splunk.com/index.php/camp > _______________________________________________ > sf-lug mailing list > sf-lug@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug --Apple-Mail-16-556087801 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=WINDOWS-1252 sorry i didn't figure this out when i sent=20 the other message:=20 It's in San Francisco on the corner of=20 Mission and 3rd Streets!=20 3333,3333,3333 January 14, = 2006 3333,3333,3333 Diablo Grande Wine Gallery 3333,3333,3333 669 Mission Street, San Francisco, CA 94105 <<------ = = 0000,6666,CCCCwww.diabl= ogrande.com/winegallery3333,3333,3333= =20 On Dec 26, 2005, at 11:29 AM, jim stockford wrote: Times New Roman> > Splunk, creators of the first IT data search software for > troubleshooting, is sponsoring Camp SysAdmin on January 14th in San > Francisco. As our product runs on Linux, we wanted to invite the > members of the SF-LUG to attend. Attendance is free, but you must > register in advance. > > Thank you! > Diane Hagglund > diane@splunk.com > > BayLISA, USENIX, TechTarget,SysAdmin Magazine and Splunk are hosting > Camp SysAdmin on January 14th and you=92re invited to attend. Camp Sys > Admin is a full day devoted to talking about troubleshooting problems > with enterprise applications (especially LAMP and J2EE), VoIP, email > and on-demand. The format of the day will be very interactive, with > sessions that will be moderated by some of the best in the business, > including: > - Ethan Galstad, father of Nagios > - Eric Allman, Chief Science Officer, Sendmail > - Richard Whitehead, Chief Technical Officer, Clarus Systems > - Brian Aker, Director of Architecture, MySQL > > We=92ll end the day with a wine party so we can talk more about whatever > was most interesting during the day. As a sponsor of this event, > Splunk will be there talking about splunking with attendees. > > Attendance is free, although space is limited. You can reserve your > spot by registering at: http://www.splunk.com/index.php/camp _______________________________________________ sf-lug mailing list sf-lug@linuxmafia.com http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug = --Apple-Mail-16-556087801-- From jim@well.com Sat Dec 31 15:39:08 2005 Received: from smtp.well.com ([206.80.4.7]:55905) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EsqJJ-0000ns-PL for ; Sat, 31 Dec 2005 15:39:08 -0800 Received: from [192.168.1.101] (dsl081-061-186.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.61.186]) by smtp.well.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id jBVHuuNc012642 for ; Sat, 31 Dec 2005 09:56:59 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com Message-Id: <24BD5976-7A27-11DA-B9D5-000A95EA5592@well.com> From: jim stockford Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 09:59:09 -0800 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.87.1, clamav-milter version 0.87 on smtp.well.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of jim@well.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 206.80.4.7 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jim@well.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-6-978443724 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [sf-lug] Fwd: Who's Peter Quinn and what bad thing did he do? X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 23:39:09 -0000 Status: RO Content-Length: 2602 Lines: 90 --Apple-Mail-6-978443724 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Begin forwarded message: > From: jim stockford > Date: December 31, 2005 9:51:24 AM PST > To: SF-LUG > Subject: Who's Peter Quinn and what bad thing did he do? > > http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1906388,00.asp > > ...Welcome to the story of Peter Quinn, the soon-to-be former CIO of > Massachusetts. > mistake? He stood up for ODF (OpenDocument Format), an open standard > for office documents, and decided that Massachusetts would adopt ODF > for use by the Commonwealth's executive agencies. > ... > The first time someone in authority in a state government decides to > support a format that Microsoft doesn't approve, he's suddenly hounded > not only within the government but in the press as well. > ... > > (this message also tests that the sf-lug mailing list > is working on the linuxmafia.com host.) --Apple-Mail-6-978443724 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII Begin forwarded message: 0000,0000,0000From: jim stockford < 0000,0000,0000Date: December 31, 2005 9:51:24 AM PST 0000,0000,0000To: SF-LUG < 0000,0000,0000Subject: Who's Peter Quinn and what bad thing did he do? http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1906388,00.asp Verdana3332,3332,3332 ...Welcome to the story of Peter Quinn, the soon-to-be 0000,3332,9998former CIO of Massachusetts.3332,3332,3332 mistake? He stood up for ODF (OpenDocument Format), an open standard for office documents, and decided that 0000,3332,9998Massachusetts would adopt ODF3332,3332,3332 for use by the Commonwealth's executive agencies. ... Verdana3332,3332,3332The first time someone in authority in a state government decides to support a format that Microsoft doesn't approve, he's suddenly hounded not only within the government but in the press as well. ... (this message also tests that the sf-lug mailing list is working on the linuxmafia.com host.) --Apple-Mail-6-978443724-- From rick@linuxmafia.com Sat Dec 31 18:35:04 2005 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1Est3n-0001pQ-MR by authid for ; Sat, 31 Dec 2005 18:35:03 -0800 Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 18:35:03 -0800 To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Fwd: Who's Peter Quinn and what bad thing did he do? Message-ID: <20060101023502.GB2513@linuxmafia.com> References: <24BD5976-7A27-11DA-B9D5-000A95EA5592@well.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <24BD5976-7A27-11DA-B9D5-000A95EA5592@well.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Do-Not-Run: Yes X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 02:35:05 -0000 Status: RO Content-Length: 4420 Lines: 85 Quoting jim stockford (jim@well.com): >(this message also tests that the sf-lug mailing list >is working on the linuxmafia.com host.) You might have noticed that the machine had ten hours of downtime (5 am to 3 pm), courtesy of the longest storm-induced power outage my household has seen in about five years. More below. First, just a few words about the current situation, since we-all simply popped up on linuxmafia.com like mushrooms in the spring. Jim and a friend are still busy working on restoring the _real_ SF-LUG mailing list and Web site, and I believe are considering hosting options. Meanwhile, I offered to give the mailing list a temporary home on my Mailman-equipped Linux server, linuxmafia.com. (Yr. welcome. Glad to help.) linuxmafia.com (aka "uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com", for you Neal Stephenson fans) is the antique 1998-era VA Research model 500 2U server[1] in my living room in suburban West Menlo Park just north of Stanford U., connected through home aDSL service provided by Raw Bandwidth Communications (which company I recommend strongly). I am _not_ the listadmin of this temporary mailing list incarnation; Jim is. I'm just the current hardware's bit janitor (sysadmin) and pink-slip owner. ;-> As SF-LUG has already learned somewhat painfully, keeping a group's Internet presence on a machine in someone's residence has its disadvantages. Even for the resident, it's a tradeoff: On the plus side: Bandwidth uptime is exceptional, thanks to Mike Durkin at Raw Bandwidth, who is fanatical about such things. Also, I get complete control of all aspects of my machine including physical custody. And it's pretty cheap for what I get, considering all the other needs simultaneously served by the incoming pipe and 5 routable IPs. (If you want business details, consult http://www.rawbandwidth.com/ and talk to Mike. Not me, please. I'm just a customer.) On the minus side: Effective throughput is merely adequate compared to what's available at your average colo -- enough that I've survived a couple of slashdottings, but with some strain. (I'm spoiled, having gotten used to the T-1 in my old building in S.F.) Also, power outages and other physical-plant issues are _my_ problem. My long-term solution to the power-outage problem is mostly to punt: I've never bothered putting uncle-enzo on a UPS. The software's completely bulletproof and the hardware's disposable. Power outages knock it offline for maybe half an hour a couple of times a year: When the power comes back, all service reliably come back. If I get unlucky and a surge burns out a PSU or hard drive, I can bring the machine back in about an hour on substitute hardware that's ready for that purpose.[3] Back in 2001, you may recall that our {cough} friends at Enron and kin visited upon us an entire summer of rolling blackouts. _That_ created some challenges for uncle-enzo, because all of the journaling filesystems were still pretty beta, and I was at the time still 100% ext2. Because of the power crisis, I did an urgent rebuild onto SGI's XFS filesystem in May 2001[2], thereby fixing the immediate problem. The next full site rebuild after that, in 2003, I switched to ext3 -- except still using ext2 for /usr (normally mounted read-only) and for /tmp and /var/log, for performance reasons. Anyhow, SF-LUG is welcome to use my machine's facilities as long as it wants, but I anticipate that we'll want to move it to SF-LUG's _own_ machine in good time. I just wanted to reassure you that 10 hours of downtime is something of an outlying case, but is within expectation for storm season and nothing to get alarmed about. Because uncle-enzo is _my_ principal home on the Internet, I am motivated (and able) to bring it back up within about a day somewhere, no matter what happens -- root compromise, hard drive failures, whatever. [1] Get a load of these 31337 specs: single-proc PIII/500, 256kB PC100 SDRAM, 2 x 9GB SCSI-2 HDs. Go, me! [2] See: "XFS Conversion" on http://linuxmafia.com/kb/Filesystems/ . [3] In fact, I really should swap in a slightly better machine and two less ridiculously small and old hard drives, that is waiting. I just haven't had time to do the swaparound. -- Cheers, Rick Moen "Anger makes dull men witty, but it keeps them poor." rick@linuxmafia.com -- Elizabeth Tudor From jim@well.com Sun Jan 01 10:13:33 2006 Received: from smtp.well.com ([206.80.4.7]:42284) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1Et7hx-0007Dl-KJ for ; Sun, 01 Jan 2006 10:13:32 -0800 Received: from [192.168.1.101] (dsl081-061-186.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.61.186]) by smtp.well.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k01IDRDw023747 for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2006 10:13:27 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Message-Id: <9ED1ACD0-7AF2-11DA-B9D5-000A95EA5592@well.com> To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com From: jim stockford Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 10:15:42 -0800 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.87.1, clamav-milter version 0.87 on smtp.well.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of jim@well.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 206.80.4.7 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jim@well.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=4.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [sf-lug] no sf-lug meeting today, but... X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 18:13:33 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 413 Lines: 16 next sf-lug meeting is Monday, January 16, from 6:00 PM till 8:00 PM (or so). Topics will include future directions of sf-lug. Ideas include * incorporating as non-profit * revisiting our technobase (stick with Tom's machines and Jim's alternates, go with colo, use webhosting...) * web site redesign * presenting sf-lug as a resource to the greater city community, for training, connections to resources.... From alamozzz@yahoo.com Sun Jan 01 13:14:14 2006 Received: from web31406.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.198.118]:24006) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EtAW1-0008Az-UW for ; Sun, 01 Jan 2006 13:14:13 -0800 Received: (qmail 59622 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Jan 2006 21:13:14 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=uvq/e0Gzt/PolcSftSFH06xpzg4C6RqVr4MOuB1cRGWIIJVwuL7MRu8RDN21raLO6hMIgqG6k2I1v+IXTUkOINfAxDqvHAk476fKwg9VGRkfJvw0LT7fI0+pz+civXXMEKH6niD/hQ03bfUyWSkgfywg6h4k/odJIk5QxPnrjPc= ; Message-ID: <20060101211314.59620.qmail@web31406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [71.141.104.41] by web31406.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 01 Jan 2006 13:13:14 PST Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 13:13:14 -0800 (PST) From: Adrien Lamothe To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com In-Reply-To: <20060101023502.GB2513@linuxmafia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of alamozzz@yahoo.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 68.142.198.118 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: alamozzz@yahoo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.2 required=4.0 tests=BAYES_00,HTML_10_20, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=3.1.0 Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1954336922-1136149994=:59400" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 21:14:14 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 11594 Lines: 129 --0-1954336922-1136149994=:59400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Happy New Year! I'm very optimistic about 2006; I think this will be a banner year for open-source software (with most of the good stuff happening later in the year.) Thanks, Rick, for explaining uncle-enzo and the network setup and the reference to Raw Bandwidth Communications. Have you ever monitored RAM usage on uncle-enzo? RAM is really inexpensive these days, even the older PC-100 (you can also usually use PC-133 safely in a PC-100 system.) UPSes have also come way down in price. I would ask what kernel uncle-enzo is running, but that is probably an improper question due to security concerns. Cheers, Adrien Rick Moen wrote: Quoting jim stockford (jim@well.com): >(this message also tests that the sf-lug mailing list >is working on the linuxmafia.com host.) You might have noticed that the machine had ten hours of downtime (5 am to 3 pm), courtesy of the longest storm-induced power outage my household has seen in about five years. More below. First, just a few words about the current situation, since we-all simply popped up on linuxmafia.com like mushrooms in the spring. Jim and a friend are still busy working on restoring the _real_ SF-LUG mailing list and Web site, and I believe are considering hosting options. Meanwhile, I offered to give the mailing list a temporary home on my Mailman-equipped Linux server, linuxmafia.com. (Yr. welcome. Glad to help.) linuxmafia.com (aka "uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com", for you Neal Stephenson fans) is the antique 1998-era VA Research model 500 2U server[1] in my living room in suburban West Menlo Park just north of Stanford U., connected through home aDSL service provided by Raw Bandwidth Communications (which company I recommend strongly). I am _not_ the listadmin of this temporary mailing list incarnation; Jim is. I'm just the current hardware's bit janitor (sysadmin) and pink-slip owner. ;-> As SF-LUG has already learned somewhat painfully, keeping a group's Internet presence on a machine in someone's residence has its disadvantages. Even for the resident, it's a tradeoff: On the plus side: Bandwidth uptime is exceptional, thanks to Mike Durkin at Raw Bandwidth, who is fanatical about such things. Also, I get complete control of all aspects of my machine including physical custody. And it's pretty cheap for what I get, considering all the other needs simultaneously served by the incoming pipe and 5 routable IPs. (If you want business details, consult http://www.rawbandwidth.com/ and talk to Mike. Not me, please. I'm just a customer.) On the minus side: Effective throughput is merely adequate compared to what's available at your average colo -- enough that I've survived a couple of slashdottings, but with some strain. (I'm spoiled, having gotten used to the T-1 in my old building in S.F.) Also, power outages and other physical-plant issues are _my_ problem. My long-term solution to the power-outage problem is mostly to punt: I've never bothered putting uncle-enzo on a UPS. The software's completely bulletproof and the hardware's disposable. Power outages knock it offline for maybe half an hour a couple of times a year: When the power comes back, all service reliably come back. If I get unlucky and a surge burns out a PSU or hard drive, I can bring the machine back in about an hour on substitute hardware that's ready for that purpose.[3] Back in 2001, you may recall that our {cough} friends at Enron and kin visited upon us an entire summer of rolling blackouts. _That_ created some challenges for uncle-enzo, because all of the journaling filesystems were still pretty beta, and I was at the time still 100% ext2. Because of the power crisis, I did an urgent rebuild onto SGI's XFS filesystem in May 2001[2], thereby fixing the immediate problem. The next full site rebuild after that, in 2003, I switched to ext3 -- except still using ext2 for /usr (normally mounted read-only) and for /tmp and /var/log, for performance reasons. Anyhow, SF-LUG is welcome to use my machine's facilities as long as it wants, but I anticipate that we'll want to move it to SF-LUG's _own_ machine in good time. I just wanted to reassure you that 10 hours of downtime is something of an outlying case, but is within expectation for storm season and nothing to get alarmed about. Because uncle-enzo is _my_ principal home on the Internet, I am motivated (and able) to bring it back up within about a day somewhere, no matter what happens -- root compromise, hard drive failures, whatever. [1] Get a load of these 31337 specs: single-proc PIII/500, 256kB PC100 SDRAM, 2 x 9GB SCSI-2 HDs. Go, me! [2] See: "XFS Conversion" on http://linuxmafia.com/kb/Filesystems/ . [3] In fact, I really should swap in a slightly better machine and two less ridiculously small and old hard drives, that is waiting. I just haven't had time to do the swaparound. -- Cheers, Rick Moen "Anger makes dull men witty, but it keeps them poor." rick@linuxmafia.com -- Elizabeth Tudor _______________________________________________ sf-lug mailing list sf-lug@linuxmafia.com http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. --0-1954336922-1136149994=:59400 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Happy New Year!

I'm very optimistic about 2006; I think this will be a banner year for open-source software (with most of the good stuff happening later in the year.)

Thanks, Rick, for explaining uncle-enzo and the network setup and the reference to Raw Bandwidth Communications.

Have you ever monitored RAM usage on uncle-enzo? RAM is really inexpensive these days, even the older PC-100 (you can also usually use PC-133 safely in a PC-100 system.) UPSes have also come way down in price.

I would ask what kernel uncle-enzo is running, but that is probably an improper question due to security concerns.

Cheers,

Adrien


Rick Moen <rick@linuxmafia.com> wrote:
Quoting jim stockford (jim@well.com):

>(this message also tests that the sf-lug mailing list
>is working on the linuxmafia.com host.)

You might have noticed that the machine had ten hours of downtime
(5 am to 3 pm), courtesy of the longest storm-induced power outage my
household has seen in about five years. More below.

First, just a few words about the current situation, since we-all simply
popped up on linuxmafia.com like mushrooms in the spring. Jim and a
friend are still busy working on restoring the _real_ SF-LUG mailing
list and Web site, and I believe are considering hosting options.
Meanwhile, I offered to give the mailing list a temporary home on my
Mailman-equipped Linux server, linuxmafia.com. (Yr. welcome. Glad to
help.)

linuxmafia.com (aka "uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com", for you Neal Stephenson
fans) is the antique 1998-era VA Research model 500 2U server[1] in my
living room in suburban West Menlo Park just north of Stanford U.,
connected through home aDSL service provided by Raw Bandwidth
Communications (which company I recommend strongly). I am _not_ the
listadmin of this temporary mailing list incarnation; Jim is. I'm just
the current hardware's bit janitor (sysadmin) and pink-slip owner. ;->

As SF-LUG has already learned somewhat painfully, keeping a group's
Internet presence on a machine in someone's residence has its
disadvantages. Even for the resident, it's a tradeoff:

On the plus side: Bandwidth uptime is exceptional, thanks to Mike
Durkin at Raw Bandwidth, who is fanatical about such things. Also,
I get complete control of all aspects of my machine including physical
custody. And it's pretty cheap for what I get, considering all the
other needs simultaneously served by the incoming pipe and 5 routable
IPs. (If you want business details, consult http://www.rawbandwidth.com/
and talk to Mike. Not me, please. I'm just a customer.)

On the minus side: Effective throughput is merely adequate compared to
what's available at your average colo -- enough that I've survived a
couple of slashdottings, but with some strain. (I'm spoiled, having
gotten used to the T-1 in my old building in S.F.) Also, power outages
and other physical-plant issues are _my_ problem.

My long-term solution to the power-outage problem is mostly to punt:
I've never bothered putting uncle-enzo on a UPS. The software's
completely bulletproof and the hardware's disposable. Power outages
knock it offline for maybe half an hour a couple of times a year: When
the power comes back, all service reliably come back. If I get unlucky
and a surge burns out a PSU or hard drive, I can bring the machine back
in about an hour on substitute hardware that's ready for that
purpose.[3]

Back in 2001, you may recall that our {cough} friends at Enron and kin
visited upon us an entire summer of rolling blackouts. _That_ created
some challenges for uncle-enzo, because all of the journaling
filesystems were still pretty beta, and I was at the time still 100%
ext2. Because of the power crisis, I did an urgent rebuild onto SGI's
XFS filesystem in May 2001[2], thereby fixing the immediate problem.
The next full site rebuild after that, in 2003, I switched to ext3 --
except still using ext2 for /usr (normally mounted read-only) and for
/tmp and /var/log, for performance reasons.

Anyhow, SF-LUG is welcome to use my machine's facilities as long as it
wants, but I anticipate that we'll want to move it to SF-LUG's _own_
machine in good time. I just wanted to reassure you that 10 hours of
downtime is something of an outlying case, but is within expectation for
storm season and nothing to get alarmed about. Because uncle-enzo is
_my_ principal home on the Internet, I am motivated (and able) to bring
it back up within about a day somewhere, no matter what happens -- root
compromise, hard drive failures, whatever.

[1] Get a load of these 31337 specs: single-proc PIII/500, 256kB PC100
SDRAM, 2 x 9GB SCSI-2 HDs. Go, me!

[2] See: "XFS Conversion" on http://linuxmafia.com/kb/Filesystems/ .

[3] In fact, I really should swap in a slightly better machine and two
less ridiculously small and old hard drives, that is waiting. I just
haven't had time to do the swaparound.

--
Cheers,
Rick Moen "Anger makes dull men witty, but it keeps them poor."
rick@linuxmafia.com -- Elizabeth Tudor

_______________________________________________
sf-lug mailing list
sf-lug@linuxmafia.com
http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug

Yahoo! Photos
Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. --0-1954336922-1136149994=:59400-- From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Jan 01 16:27:16 2006 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EtDXf-0000uJ-G0 by authid for ; Sun, 01 Jan 2006 16:27:15 -0800 Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 16:27:14 -0800 To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. Message-ID: <20060102002714.GG2513@linuxmafia.com> References: <20060101023502.GB2513@linuxmafia.com> <20060101211314.59620.qmail@web31406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060101211314.59620.qmail@web31406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Do-Not-Run: Yes X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 00:27:16 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 11854 Lines: 244 Quoting Adrien Lamothe (alamozzz@yahoo.com): > Happy New Year! Thank ghod, we're a bit over half-way through the Noughties. I won't miss 'em. > Have you ever monitored RAM usage on uncle-enzo? RAM is really > inexpensive these days, even the older PC-100 (you can also usually > use PC-133 safely in a PC-100 system.) You know, I could, but why? Like most Linux Internet hosts in most situations, uncle-enzo is I/O-bound, courtesy of living at the slow end of an aDSL line. Given its role in life, it could actually be a much less powerful (and quieter, and smaller, and less electricity-gulping) machine, and still perform just as well. vmstat and other tools show it doesn't eat into virtual memory much, and in general runs fairly healthily with its mere 256MB. About the only real benefit of (say) doubling that RAM would be stretch the life of its twin 9GB SCSI-2 drives, by giving more resources to the system disk cache. But, really: Extending the life of 9GB SCSI-2 drives? In 2006? You see, I really did think that one over. I'm not sure it even merits spending tbe price of several Quiznos Classic Italian sandwitches at SA Technology, let alone having to spin down the machine, get all the junk off the 2U case, crack it open, blow all the dust out, and cram in more RAM. For that matter, I don't even know offhand how many free RAM slots the Intel Nightshade (N440BX) motherboard has, or what it maxes out at. Hmm, searching reveals: four DIMM slots, total max 1GB. Jury says: Not even worth cracking the case to find out whether the number of open slots is two or zero. Remember, this is junk hardware, like any computer _that_ old (8 yrs.). > UPSes have also come way down in price. And you then get to pay pretty much the same amount again every few years to get battery replacements. And the periodic amount you have to pay is proportional to the capacity. (There's also the possibility of automatic orderly shutdown, discussed below, with even very low-capacity UPSes.) Let's think about that: For there to be much point, I'd need to put the system box, the aDSL modem, and at least the house's outer ethernet hub on the UPS. Let's say for the sake of discussion that it's 220W, on average. An APC Smart-UPS XL 750VA provides... hmm, the units of their capacity figures don't makes sense to me. Shouldn't it be in something like kilowatt-hours? (Turns out this is complex, and is explained at http://www.pcguide.com/ref/power/ext/ups/funcCapacity-c.html .) Costs $420, weighs 53 pounds. 220 watts over 110 VAC implies a 2 amp current draw. Anyhow, they have a chart that claims about 1 1/4 hours of battery runtime at that current draw -- for $420 every few years. And for what? Currently, the power trips off: uncle-enzo is off the air. Power comes back: uncle-enzo is back with everything undamaged and just fine. This is no fluke: The SQL database uses ACID-compliant tables, the non-static filesystems are journaled, all services restart automatically. Even vim keeps temporary files so you can reopen the unsaved file you had open where power dropped off, without lossage. Most outages are during winter storms at 4 AM while I'm asleep, anyway. I wake up, and the only way I can even tell there's _been_ downtime is that my GNU Screen sessions aren't running, any more. So, basically, $420 every few years would buy my uninterrupted operation through two or three power failures per year that are shorter than 1.25 hours. Presumbly, $100 every few years might buy me uniterrupted operation through 15 minute or shorter power outages. But I really don't care that much. Deirdre has an unused UPS that would probably run uncle-enzo (and the other stuff) for ten minutes. The other thing alluded to above is that UPSes don't _have_ to simply run silently along on battery power until suddenly they run out of juice and everything falls over: With a suitable RS-232C serial or USB cable, your UPS can send out status signals to an attached machine that is running UPS-minitoring daemon software. That software then will wake up and do whatever it's configured for, when there is X estimated minutes of battery runtime remaining: page the administrator, do an orderly shutdown of affected machines, or whatever. This can be important if, say, you have application servers that depend on database servers, etc., that really need to be brought down and back up in a specific order. I don't, and as far as I can tell my needs are limited to: please bring the machine back up when the power comes back. And I already have that, with no UPS. APCC (and possibly others) makes the monitoring thing gratuitously difficult by requiring bizarrely non-standard cables for the interconnects involved, which are -- of course -- absurdly expensive and exotic. (This may have changed. It was the case some years ago.) Some smarter guy than I might imagine something useful that can be done within a 10 (or 75) minute battery runtime, using such a mechanism. Personally, I don't really see any, and so don't see any significant advantage. > I would ask what kernel uncle-enzo is running, but that is probably an > improper question due to security concerns. No, I have no problem disclosing that. It's a Debian-packaged binary kernel (because I'm lazy, and because many distro-provided precompiled modular kernels are good enough): ~ $ uname -r 2.4.27-2-686 ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ | | | | |-- CPU-optimisation (best you can do for a PIII) and architecture, | | | | -- Version of the distro's package of this kernel variant. | | |-- Release version for this kernel. | |-- Minor series number, for this kernel release. Even numbers are | | stable releases, through 2.4. 2.6 introduced different versioning. | |-- Major series number, for this kernel release. People new to Debian and related distros (MEPIS, Kanotix, Ubuntu, etc.) sometimes just assume that they'll automatically get a suitable kernel every time they update packages using apt-get -- and never stop to consider what kernel _package_ they're using. Worse, prior to Debian 3.0 "sarge" (current "stable" branch), if you took no explicit action to manually pick an explicit kernel package, you ended up by default with the _installer's_ kernel and no actual kernel _package_ at all. The result was that you persisted in running an extremely generic kernel, which then never received any updates because the package system didn't even know about it. It somehow never occurred to the Debian package maintainers that many people would _not_ take an explicit step to pick a kernel package. This oversight was fixed in the (now-current) "sarge"-branch's default installer. Anyhow, if you browse through available precompiled kernel packages for your CPU family (x86, PPC, SPARC...), you find various 2.4.x, 2.6.x, and even 2.2.x release versions. You also find, for each release version present, packages with different compiler optimisations (386, 586, 686, k6, k7). For each of those, you find packages compiled either with or without SMP support. The specific Debian kernel package I have installed is called: Pacakge: kernel-image-2.4-686 Description: Linux kernel image for version 2.4 on PPro/Celeron/PII/PIII/P4 This package will always depend on the latest 2.4 kernel image available for Pentium Pro/Celeron/Pentium II/Pentium III/Pentium 4. Tag: admin::boot, admin::kernel, role::aux:metapackage As indicated, this is a "metapackage" (or virtual package), sort of like a movable symlink for packaging: Its presence is a reminder memo to the packaging system that it should fetch any newer _actual_ physical package with any name of the form "kernel-image-2.4.N-686, where N is a number higher than the current value. (Kernel metapackages aka virtual packages were introduced sometime in the "sarge" testing cycle. If you have a Debian-ish system, you might check to see if it maybe got accidentially stuck at 2.4.N for low values of N, because that's the physical-package version you picked once upon a time, and you never revisited the matter or switched to a metapackage.) And, of course, N is currently 27: I have package "kernel-image-2.4.27-686", which package is at release #2, as shown earlier. This is a uniprocessor (non-SMP) kernel, compiled with PPro (686) optimisation. Now, you might be thinking, "Wait! isn't the 2.4 kernel series up to 2.4.31?" Yes, it is. Debian, like most distros, occasionally chooses to pick a kernel release that looks really good for the medium term and standardise on it for a while. As 2.4.28, -29, -30, and -31 came out, the Debian kernel maintainers consider whether each will make a better substitute interim standard, and whether the new version's improvements can be easily backported to 2.4.27. So far, they have preferred to backport. Thus, even though 2.4.x releases after 2.4.27 have provided security fixes, the fact that I'm still on a 2.4.27 kernel doesn't mean I've missed those fixes. I mention that matter because it's a frequent area of confusion among people new to kernel issues: You can't just look at package numbers and say "Oh no! That's a vulnerable version." Backports make the matter not quite that simple. If I actually had some compelling reason to run a 2.4.31 kernel, the fact that Debian doesn't (yet) provide one precompiled isn't much of an obstacle, because Debian provides the make-kpkg (make kernel package) tool, allowing you to easily compile and build Debianised binary kernel packages from the source tarballs of your choosing. I could do that -- but I'm lazy, and I also have a reasonable amount of faith in the package maintainers' oversight. And, by the way, there wouldn't be a whole lot of point in being secretive about what Linux kernel I'm running: The nmap and p0f remote-scanning tools, among others, can make a somewhat reasonable guess about what OS and kernel reversion you're running, through testing TCP packet signatures and such things. linuxmafia:~# nmap -sT -sV -sU -O linuxmafia.com Starting nmap 3.93 (http://www.insecure.org/nmap/ ) at 2006-01-01 15:01 PST Interesting ports on linuxmafia.com (198.144.195.186): (The 3135 ports scanned but not shown below are in state: closed) PORT STATE SERVICE VERSION 21/tcp open ftp vsFTPd 2.0.3 22/tcp open ssh OpenSSH 4.2p1 Debian-5 (protocol 2.0) 23/tcp open ssh OpenSSH 4.2p1 Debian-5 (protocol 2.0) 25/tcp open smtp Exim smtpd 4.54 53/tcp open domain 53/udp open domain? 80/tcp open http Apache httpd 1.3.33 ((Debian GNU/Linux) mod_ssl/2.8.24 OpenSSL/0.9.8 DAV/1.0.3) 119/tcp open nntp Leafnode nntpd 2.0b8_ma9 123/udp open ntp? 443/tcp open http Apache httpd 1.3.33 ((Debian GNU/Linux) mod_ssl/2.8.24 OpenSSL/0.9.8 DAV/1.0.3) 873/tcp open rsync (protocol version 29) 8080/tcp open ssh OpenSSH 4.2p1 Debian-5 (protocol 2.0) 32768/udp open|filtered omadDevice type: generalpurpose Running: Linux 2.4.X|2.5.X OS details: Linux 2.4.0 - 2.5.20 Uptime 1.017 days (since Sat Dec 31 14:37:58 2005) Service Info: OS: Unix Nmap finished: 1 IP address (1 host up) scanned in 55.254 seconds linuxmafia:~# p0f p0f - passive os fingerprinting utility, version 2.0.5 (C) M. Zalewski , W. Stearns p0f: listening (SYN) on 'eth1', 231 sigs (13 generic), rule: 'all'. 198.144.195.186:43966 - Linux 2.4/2.6 <= 2.6.7 (up: 24 hrs) [snip] _Do_ try that at home, kids: Studying your own machines' external profile via remote-probing tools is an _extremely_ good idea. However, think long and hard before security-scanning other folks' networks, since many people may get a little trigger-happy about that. From alamozzz@yahoo.com Sun Jan 01 18:12:16 2006 Received: from web31402.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.198.114]:40726) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EtFAq-0001X6-Au for ; Sun, 01 Jan 2006 18:12:15 -0800 Received: (qmail 85255 invoked by uid 60001); 2 Jan 2006 02:11:32 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=CFkxunuvHoiJ3gSC+yzEXYdYgMvf7h5W0Yy+OOvFp++p81EDula3QmagqBu/4V40u49fum+uwhdH/IHODxxksOuv8JDmwiZ0rgrWi0Sk9xPakNtCNlzywfpVS9/GiWoM0YgcDkSuBEs44WVLBDOrJyT+fLs1XGhYJ8ylkV6+I5s= ; Message-ID: <20060102021132.85253.qmail@web31402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [71.141.104.41] by web31402.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 01 Jan 2006 18:11:32 PST Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 18:11:32 -0800 (PST) From: Adrien Lamothe To: Rick Moen , sf-lug@linuxmafia.com In-Reply-To: <20060102002714.GG2513@linuxmafia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of alamozzz@yahoo.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 68.142.198.114 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: alamozzz@yahoo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.7 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_30_40, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=3.1.0 Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1033777824-1136167892=:84929" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 02:12:16 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2204 Lines: 40 --0-1033777824-1136167892=:84929 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Rick Moen wrote: >Jury says: Not even worth cracking the case to find out whether the number of open slots is two or zero. Well, cleaning out dust is always a good thing to do. >Remember, this is junk hardware, like any computer _that_ old (8 yrs.). I think it is an excellent piece of hardware. The 400BX chipset is very stable, a great choice for a server. The Pentium III Coppermine is a very capable processor. Don't let uncle-enzo die! He has been a good uncle, now you should support and comfort him in his old age. What do the other conspire list members think? Shouldn't uncle-enzo be allowed to continue doing what he has done so well for so long? Long live uncle-enzo! --------------------------------- Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less --0-1033777824-1136167892=:84929 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 
Rick Moen <rick@linuxmafia.com> wrote:
>Jury says: Not even worth cracking the case to find out whether the number of open slots is two or zero.
Well, cleaning out dust is always a good thing to do.

>Remember, this is junk hardware, like any computer _that_ old (8 yrs.).

I think it is an excellent piece of hardware. 
The 400BX chipset is very stable, a great choice for a server.
The Pentium III Coppermine is a very capable processor.

Don't let uncle-enzo die! He has been a good uncle, now you
should support and comfort him in his old age. What do the
other conspire list members think? Shouldn't uncle-enzo be 
allowed to continue doing what he has done so well for so
long?

Long live uncle-enzo!

Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less --0-1033777824-1136167892=:84929-- From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Jan 01 18:51:17 2006 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EtFn2-0001dW-IG by authid for ; Sun, 01 Jan 2006 18:51:16 -0800 Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 18:51:15 -0800 From: Rick Moen To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. Message-ID: <20060102025115.GN2501@linuxmafia.com> References: <20060102002714.GG2513@linuxmafia.com> <20060102021132.85253.qmail@web31402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060102021132.85253.qmail@web31402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-SA-Do-Not-Run: Yes X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 02:51:17 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1798 Lines: 44 Quoting Adrien Lamothe (alamozzz@yahoo.com): > Well, cleaning out dust is always a good thing to do. True. I do my best to stop it at the front panel, which has wire grills over three incredibly noisy 2" high-speed fans. The whine is loud and annoying enough that I long ago stopped using my desk, which is right next to it in the living room. Anyhow, the few times I've cracked the case, it's seemed to me that there was very little dust actually _in_ the cavity, because I pretty frequently remove it from the front-panel grills. > I think it is an excellent piece of hardware. The 400BX chipset is > very stable, a great choice for a server. The Pentium III Coppermine > is a very capable processor. For its day: very true. If only the damned thing were quieter and more power-thrifty. Before Reg Charney moved out of the Bay Area, he gave me a VA Linux Systems 2230 2U system, which is based on the slightly newer and fairly respectable Intel L440GX "Lancewood" motherboard, and has a single PIII/833 (can support dual). Reg had disconnected the leads to one of _that_ box's fans (and tested to make sure it didn't overheat), and indeed it's way, way quieter than the current model 500 box. Anyhow, I have in mind to migrate uncle-enzo over to the model 2230 Lancewood system -- either that, or something really quiet, modern, and small. Like, imagine: I go down to Action Computer and buy a nice 2yr. old laptop with a broken LCD screen for $50. That would be, what? Some P4/1500 or such with a gig of memory, a 40 GB IDE hard drive. Built-in UPS (the battery). Quiet as a dormouse. Sips only tiny amounts of power. And, you know? There would be no performance difference, because of the aDSL bottleneck. > Don't let uncle-enzo die! I might have him bronzed. ;-> From alamozzz@yahoo.com Sun Jan 01 20:25:02 2006 Received: from web31407.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.198.119]:30516) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EtHEf-0002Co-KQ for ; Sun, 01 Jan 2006 20:24:59 -0800 Received: (qmail 46913 invoked by uid 60001); 2 Jan 2006 04:23:44 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=w6Mp2dD8qhu72GkFBZL1YEuUeEiDCRm43lH1AtsMuhl3FY7MDfMNzXcFsy3PO4gPK3ZuSCAf4jhW32h9QYN4znkp7oeRTRw5BN1tSqZaK1RFpa26Oaa0bhardrnNVUEi4oGYRf63P6asjNb4Pg7OLBWi8n2KCFL6yPPJDVqfbWs= ; Message-ID: <20060102042344.46911.qmail@web31407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [71.141.104.41] by web31407.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 01 Jan 2006 20:23:44 PST Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 20:23:44 -0800 (PST) From: Adrien Lamothe To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com In-Reply-To: <20060102025115.GN2501@linuxmafia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of alamozzz@yahoo.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 68.142.198.119 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: alamozzz@yahoo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.5 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_10_20, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=3.1.0 Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-42585032-1136175824=:46901" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 04:25:03 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 5421 Lines: 73 --0-42585032-1136175824=:46901 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I was actually going to suggest a laptop, but you would still want to UPS the DSL modem, etc. The Lancewood system sounds like a capable replacement. But the laptop would consume less power, take up less real estate and emit way less noise. Rick Moen wrote: Quoting Adrien Lamothe (alamozzz@yahoo.com): > Well, cleaning out dust is always a good thing to do. True. I do my best to stop it at the front panel, which has wire grills over three incredibly noisy 2" high-speed fans. The whine is loud and annoying enough that I long ago stopped using my desk, which is right next to it in the living room. Anyhow, the few times I've cracked the case, it's seemed to me that there was very little dust actually _in_ the cavity, because I pretty frequently remove it from the front-panel grills. > I think it is an excellent piece of hardware. The 400BX chipset is > very stable, a great choice for a server. The Pentium III Coppermine > is a very capable processor. For its day: very true. If only the damned thing were quieter and more power-thrifty. Before Reg Charney moved out of the Bay Area, he gave me a VA Linux Systems 2230 2U system, which is based on the slightly newer and fairly respectable Intel L440GX "Lancewood" motherboard, and has a single PIII/833 (can support dual). Reg had disconnected the leads to one of _that_ box's fans (and tested to make sure it didn't overheat), and indeed it's way, way quieter than the current model 500 box. Anyhow, I have in mind to migrate uncle-enzo over to the model 2230 Lancewood system -- either that, or something really quiet, modern, and small. Like, imagine: I go down to Action Computer and buy a nice 2yr. old laptop with a broken LCD screen for $50. That would be, what? Some P4/1500 or such with a gig of memory, a 40 GB IDE hard drive. Built-in UPS (the battery). Quiet as a dormouse. Sips only tiny amounts of power. And, you know? There would be no performance difference, because of the aDSL bottleneck. > Don't let uncle-enzo die! I might have him bronzed. ;-> _______________________________________________ sf-lug mailing list sf-lug@linuxmafia.com http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. --0-42585032-1136175824=:46901 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
I was actually going to suggest a laptop, but you would still want to UPS the DSL modem, etc. The Lancewood system sounds like a capable replacement. But the laptop would consume less power, take up less real estate and emit way less noise.


Rick Moen <rick@linuxmafia.com> wrote:
Quoting Adrien Lamothe (alamozzz@yahoo.com):

> Well, cleaning out dust is always a good thing to do.

True. I do my best to stop it at the front panel, which has wire grills
over three incredibly noisy 2" high-speed fans. The whine is loud and
annoying enough that I long ago stopped using my desk, which is right
next to it in the living room.

Anyhow, the few times I've cracked the case, it's seemed to me that
there was very little dust actually _in_ the cavity, because I pretty
frequently remove it from the front-panel grills.

> I think it is an excellent piece of hardware. The 400BX chipset is
> very stable, a great choice for a server. The Pentium III Coppermine
> is a very capable processor.

For its day: very true. If only the damned thing were quieter and more
power-thrifty.

Before Reg Charney moved out of the Bay Area, he gave me a VA Linux
Systems 2230 2U system, which is based on the slightly newer and fairly
respectable Intel L440GX "Lancewood" motherboard, and has a single
PIII/833 (can support dual). Reg had disconnected the leads to one of
_that_ box's fans (and tested to make sure it didn't overheat), and
indeed it's way, way quieter than the current model 500 box.

Anyhow, I have in mind to migrate uncle-enzo over to the model 2230
Lancewood system -- either that, or something really quiet, modern, and
small. Like, imagine: I go down to Action Computer and buy a nice 2yr.
old laptop with a broken LCD screen for $50.

That would be, what? Some P4/1500 or such with a gig of memory, a 40 GB
IDE hard drive. Built-in UPS (the battery). Quiet as a dormouse. Sips
only tiny amounts of power.

And, you know? There would be no performance difference, because of the
aDSL bottleneck.

> Don't let uncle-enzo die!

I might have him bronzed. ;->


_______________________________________________
sf-lug mailing list
sf-lug@linuxmafia.com
http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug

Yahoo! Photos
Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. --0-42585032-1136175824=:46901-- From johnlowry@gmail.com Sun Jan 01 20:31:39 2006 Received: from wproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.184.200]:53499) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EtHM5-0002H8-Bx for ; Sun, 01 Jan 2006 20:31:39 -0800 Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i12so1923479wra for ; Sun, 01 Jan 2006 20:31:29 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=pzztdwWOJEG6+VG58rtL3n60mjn6QzvU3xtR0Lx8WAi00t7dmiwnD3EmQ97lyrE9kqbndN+8vJYiw27f2Z8E1OPmW8YNIssM5mj5l2eMEyLt8YVDpAX1HYvEzTI+I3Df7u1p2ItO5KfesGm7OVok6TW22RQqL2Q+c/uaf7UlSSc= Received: by 10.65.213.18 with SMTP id p18mr104095qbq; Sun, 01 Jan 2006 19:29:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.65.181.13 with HTTP; Sun, 1 Jan 2006 19:29:08 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <528b20610601011929p3a11a954n3ce04b5f1aed9a25@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 19:29:08 -0800 From: John Lowry To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Received-SPF: pass (linuxmafia.com: domain of johnlowry@gmail.com designates 64.233.184.200 as permitted sender) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 64.233.184.200 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: johnlowry@gmail.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=4.0 tests=BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=3.1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4255_31731634.1136172548517" X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [sf-lug] Something to consider for hosting X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 04:31:40 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1024 Lines: 29 ------=_Part_4255_31731634.1136172548517 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I have a few friends that work at a hosting company that can hook us up wit= h a %15 discount no problem if we decide to go that route and have told me that once we get a non-profit tax code that we will get a %40 discount. They work at Media Temple www.mediatemple.net -- John Lowry ------=_Part_4255_31731634.1136172548517 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I have a few friends that work at a hosting company that can hook us up wit= h a %15 discount no problem if we decide to go that route and have told me = that once we get a non-profit tax code that we will get a %40 discount.
They work at Media Temple

www= .mediatemple.net

--
John Lowry

------=_Part_4255_31731634.1136172548517-- From jim@well.com Sun Jan 01 20:51:17 2006 Received: from smtp.well.com ([206.80.4.7]:41215) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EtHev-0002Ks-Eo ; Sun, 01 Jan 2006 20:51:16 -0800 Received: from [192.168.1.101] (dsl081-061-186.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.61.186]) by smtp.well.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k024ovWT002036; Sun, 1 Jan 2006 20:50:57 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20060102025115.GN2501@linuxmafia.com> References: <20060102002714.GG2513@linuxmafia.com> <20060102021132.85253.qmail@web31402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20060102025115.GN2501@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Message-Id: From: jim stockford Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 20:53:11 -0800 To: Rick Moen X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.87.1, clamav-milter version 0.87 on smtp.well.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of jim@well.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 206.80.4.7 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jim@well.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=4.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Cc: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 04:51:17 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 3014 Lines: 87 Rick and Adrien: what an interesting ping-pong! * The laptop idea (get a cheap laptop for your server if you want quietly to save electri$ity) is useful. * (i had no idea CPUs and motherboards had such nicknames.) I'd like to know what are the best choices for CPUs, motherboards, and such in the first half of 2006. SATA is the way to go? How about all-RAM systems? * What are the tradeoffs of do-it-at-your-house vs colo (your box lives there) vs web hosting (not your box)? The colo and web hosters have T-1 with UPS and wet ware switch operations. The downside of the Uncle Enzo solution (and the cheap laptop solution) is that the older he gets, the more likely is hardware failure. Once something goes (the drives, controller, motherboard...), he's probably permanently gone, as the money to repair/replace is a bad spend, yes? Long as you've got him, love him, but be ready for son of Enzo, what say? On Jan 1, 2006, at 6:51 PM, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Adrien Lamothe (alamozzz@yahoo.com): > >> Well, cleaning out dust is always a good thing to do. > > True. I do my best to stop it at the front panel, which has wire > grills > over three incredibly noisy 2" high-speed fans. The whine is loud and > annoying enough that I long ago stopped using my desk, which is right > next to it in the living room. > > Anyhow, the few times I've cracked the case, it's seemed to me that > there was very little dust actually _in_ the cavity, because I pretty > frequently remove it from the front-panel grills. > >> I think it is an excellent piece of hardware. The 400BX chipset is >> very stable, a great choice for a server. The Pentium III Coppermine >> is a very capable processor. > > For its day: very true. If only the damned thing were quieter and > more > power-thrifty. > > Before Reg Charney moved out of the Bay Area, he gave me a VA Linux > Systems 2230 2U system, which is based on the slightly newer and fairly > respectable Intel L440GX "Lancewood" motherboard, and has a single > PIII/833 (can support dual). Reg had disconnected the leads to one of > _that_ box's fans (and tested to make sure it didn't overheat), and > indeed it's way, way quieter than the current model 500 box. > > Anyhow, I have in mind to migrate uncle-enzo over to the model 2230 > Lancewood system -- either that, or something really quiet, modern, and > small. Like, imagine: I go down to Action Computer and buy a nice > 2yr. > old laptop with a broken LCD screen for $50. > > That would be, what? Some P4/1500 or such with a gig of memory, a 40 > GB > IDE hard drive. Built-in UPS (the battery). Quiet as a dormouse. > Sips > only tiny amounts of power. > > And, you know? There would be no performance difference, because of > the > aDSL bottleneck. > >> Don't let uncle-enzo die! > > I might have him bronzed. ;-> > > > _______________________________________________ > sf-lug mailing list > sf-lug@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug > From david@sterryit.com Sun Jan 01 21:03:22 2006 Received: from mail22.atl.registeredsite.com ([216.247.37.42]:20496 ident=[U2FsdGVkX1/TgIPnBhvagKTHjKqvE9HnNWkehHJ4vmc=]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EtHq8-0002Tw-Mn for ; Sun, 01 Jan 2006 21:03:21 -0800 Received: from imta07a2.registeredsite.com (imta07a2.registeredsite.com [64.225.255.16]) by mail22.atl.registeredsite.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k025285t001923 for ; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 00:02:08 -0500 Received: from [10.168.29.125] ([67.169.101.132]) by imta07a2.registeredsite.com with ESMTP id <20060102050208.YSDL2013.imta07a2.registeredsite.com@[10.168.29.125]> for ; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 00:02:08 -0500 Message-ID: <43B8B385.7010703@sterryit.com> Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 21:00:53 -0800 From: David Sterry User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com References: <20060102002714.GG2513@linuxmafia.com> <20060102021132.85253.qmail@web31402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20060102025115.GN2501@linuxmafia.com> In-Reply-To: <20060102025115.GN2501@linuxmafia.com> X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH CRAM-MD5 at imta07a2.registeredsite.com from [67.169.101.132] using ID david@sterryit.com at Mon, 2 Jan 2006 00:02:07 -0500 Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of david@sterryit.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.247.37.42 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: david@sterryit.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=4.0 tests=BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=3.1.0 Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------030401020606060201010401" X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 05:03:23 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 7174 Lines: 197 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------030401020606060201010401 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This has been a pretty interesting and very indepth discussion. I've never made it to a meeting but I did go the USENIX show < 1 month ago and had a pretty good time. As for the UPS issue, I think for non-mission-critical use, just make sure your bios is set to power the machine back on after power failure and test it out to see that all your services come after you pull the plug. If your bios doesn't offer the option, definitely upgrade. May I second the $50 p4 1gb laptop with broken screen? If that has too much processing power visit http://folding.stanford.edu/ A quick plug: I've recently created a chat server in php/javascript. If you want to put it up on the sflug or any other php enabled server, go for it. You can test it out at http://www/sterryit.com/chat or get your own at http://www.sterryit.com/chatr Thanks, Dave Rick Moen wrote: >Quoting Adrien Lamothe (alamozzz@yahoo.com): > > > >>Well, cleaning out dust is always a good thing to do. >> >> > >True. I do my best to stop it at the front panel, which has wire grills >over three incredibly noisy 2" high-speed fans. The whine is loud and >annoying enough that I long ago stopped using my desk, which is right >next to it in the living room. > >Anyhow, the few times I've cracked the case, it's seemed to me that >there was very little dust actually _in_ the cavity, because I pretty >frequently remove it from the front-panel grills. > > > >>I think it is an excellent piece of hardware. The 400BX chipset is >>very stable, a great choice for a server. The Pentium III Coppermine >>is a very capable processor. >> >> > >For its day: very true. If only the damned thing were quieter and more >power-thrifty. > >Before Reg Charney moved out of the Bay Area, he gave me a VA Linux >Systems 2230 2U system, which is based on the slightly newer and fairly >respectable Intel L440GX "Lancewood" motherboard, and has a single >PIII/833 (can support dual). Reg had disconnected the leads to one of >_that_ box's fans (and tested to make sure it didn't overheat), and >indeed it's way, way quieter than the current model 500 box. > >Anyhow, I have in mind to migrate uncle-enzo over to the model 2230 >Lancewood system -- either that, or something really quiet, modern, and >small. Like, imagine: I go down to Action Computer and buy a nice 2yr. >old laptop with a broken LCD screen for $50. > >That would be, what? Some P4/1500 or such with a gig of memory, a 40 GB >IDE hard drive. Built-in UPS (the battery). Quiet as a dormouse. Sips >only tiny amounts of power. > >And, you know? There would be no performance difference, because of the >aDSL bottleneck. > > > >>Don't let uncle-enzo die! >> >> > >I might have him bronzed. ;-> > > >_______________________________________________ >sf-lug mailing list >sf-lug@linuxmafia.com >http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug > > > --------------030401020606060201010401 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This has been a pretty interesting and very indepth discussion. I've never made it to a meeting but I did go the USENIX show < 1 month ago and had a pretty good time.

As for the UPS issue, I think for non-mission-critical use, just make sure your bios is set to power the machine back on after power failure and test it out to see that all your services come after you pull the plug. If your bios doesn't offer the option, definitely upgrade.  May I second the $50 p4 1gb laptop with broken screen? If that has too much processing power visit http://folding.stanford.edu/

A quick plug: I've recently created a chat server in php/javascript. If you want to put it up on the sflug or any other php enabled server, go for it. You can test it out at http://www/sterryit.com/chat or get your own at http://www.sterryit.com/chatr

Thanks,

Dave

Rick Moen wrote: 
Quoting Adrien Lamothe (alamozzz@yahoo.com):

  
Well, cleaning out dust is always a good thing to do.
    

True.  I do my best to stop it at the front panel, which has wire grills
over three incredibly noisy 2" high-speed fans.  The whine is loud and
annoying enough that I long ago stopped using my desk, which is right
next to it in the living room.

Anyhow, the few times I've cracked the case, it's seemed to me that
there was very little dust actually _in_ the cavity, because I pretty
frequently remove it from the front-panel grills.

  
I think it is an excellent piece of hardware.  The 400BX chipset is
very stable, a great choice for a server.  The Pentium III Coppermine
is a very capable processor.
    

For its day:  very true.  If only the damned thing were quieter and more
power-thrifty.

Before Reg Charney moved out of the Bay Area, he gave me a VA Linux
Systems 2230 2U system, which is based on the slightly newer and fairly
respectable Intel L440GX "Lancewood" motherboard, and has a single
PIII/833 (can support dual).  Reg had disconnected the leads to one of
_that_ box's fans (and tested to make sure it didn't overheat), and
indeed it's way, way quieter than the current model 500 box.

Anyhow, I have in mind to migrate uncle-enzo over to the model 2230
Lancewood system -- either that, or something really quiet, modern, and
small.  Like, imagine:  I go down to Action Computer and buy a nice 2yr.
old laptop with a broken LCD screen for $50.  

That would be, what?  Some P4/1500 or such with a gig of memory, a 40 GB
IDE hard drive.  Built-in UPS (the battery).  Quiet as a dormouse.  Sips
only tiny amounts of power.

And, you know?  There would be no performance difference, because of the
aDSL bottleneck.

  
Don't let uncle-enzo die!
    

I might have him bronzed.  ;->


_______________________________________________
sf-lug mailing list
sf-lug@linuxmafia.com
http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug

--------------030401020606060201010401-- From jim@well.com Sun Jan 01 21:08:45 2006 Received: from smtp.well.com ([206.80.4.7]:42562) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EtHvw-0002ai-FL for ; Sun, 01 Jan 2006 21:08:44 -0800 Received: from [192.168.1.101] (dsl081-061-186.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.61.186]) by smtp.well.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k0258U25009431; Sun, 1 Jan 2006 21:08:30 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <528b20610601011929p3a11a954n3ce04b5f1aed9a25@mail.gmail.com> References: <528b20610601011929p3a11a954n3ce04b5f1aed9a25@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Message-Id: <20EFF736-7B4E-11DA-B9D5-000A95EA5592@well.com> From: jim stockford Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 21:10:45 -0800 To: John Lowry X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.87.1, clamav-milter version 0.87 on smtp.well.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of jim@well.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 206.80.4.7 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jim@well.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Something to consider for hosting--RFC X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Cc: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 05:08:45 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2168 Lines: 64 RFC: I've gone round and round on this colo vs stick to what we've got vs web hosting that I'm dizzy. Issues: * It's a good, good thing that we members have root access to the boxes. Those of us who want to jump in will learn linux better. * It's a good thing that we members have physical access to the boxes. * It's a thing to save money: $15 per month is a better thing than $100 per month. * We assume the ability to tweak our web pages ourselves whenever we like. * T-1 is better than sDSL is better than aDSL. * Discounts for the charitable are great. * Sharing costs with others gets better situations at less cost but with possibly more confusion (the others may have root access, too). * XEN or UML linux (virtual OS instances) are good, but what's the learning curve? MediaTemple is in Culver City. Web hosting presents the risk of cost overages if storage or bandwidth exceeds specs. What's the value of being able to drive to the boxes and hang out with the in situ wetware? There's a guy down the street from me who has a T-1 line and wifi antennas all over his roof. His clients are dozers who read their email and sports in the evenings. He claims most of the bandwidth is available and doesn't care if I hog it somewhat. He claims I can have a static IP address (don't know if that's a 10. etc.--let's assume it's public). My bottleneck would be the wifi connection between my back deck and his roof. Given our good relations with him, we could make our connection available to others, too, for some consideration (money or help or smiles). I'm not yet good enough to sysadm the box, security, and entire set of servers. Your opinions? On Jan 1, 2006, at 7:29 PM, John Lowry wrote: > I have a few friends that work at a hosting company that can hook us > up with a %15 discount no problem if we decide to go that route and > have told me that once we get a non-profit tax code that we will get a > %40 discount. > They work at Media Temple > > www.mediatemple.net > > -- > John Lowry > > _______________________________________________ > sf-lug mailing list > sf-lug@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Jan 01 21:16:01 2006 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EtI36-0002gF-Bz by authid for ; Sun, 01 Jan 2006 21:16:00 -0800 Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 21:15:59 -0800 To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. Message-ID: <20060102051559.GK2513@linuxmafia.com> References: <20060102002714.GG2513@linuxmafia.com> <20060102021132.85253.qmail@web31402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20060102025115.GN2501@linuxmafia.com> <43B8B385.7010703@sterryit.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <43B8B385.7010703@sterryit.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Do-Not-Run: Yes X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 05:16:01 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1230 Lines: 25 Quoting David Sterry (david@sterryit.com): > As for the UPS issue, I think for non-mission-critical use, just make > sure your bios is set to power the machine back on after power failure > and test it out to see that all your services come after you pull the > plug. If your bios doesn't offer the option, definitely upgrade. This is a good point for most ATX and later machines. By contrast, server-class kit such as the VA Research model 500 and VA Linux Systems 2230 use (annoyingly failure-prone) custom PSUs from Converter Concepts that do power-on automatically. I actually do know of instances of people putting desktop-grade ATX-type systems on UPSes _solely_ as a kludge to get around their inability, otherwise, to come back online automatically after losing power. For example, my wife's older machine that used to run "deirdre.net" in our living room had that problem: It was supposed to be a 24x7 Web server, yet she kept having to visit the living room and frob the start switch, every time there was even a three-second power glitch. _Really_ antique kit like the K6/233 AT-type tower under my kitchen table (the one I use to burn Linux ISOs for visitors during CABAL meetings) escape that problem. From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Jan 01 21:46:59 2006 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EtIX5-0002mq-3E by authid for ; Sun, 01 Jan 2006 21:46:59 -0800 Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 21:46:58 -0800 To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Something to consider for hosting--RFC Message-ID: <20060102054658.GL2513@linuxmafia.com> References: <528b20610601011929p3a11a954n3ce04b5f1aed9a25@mail.gmail.com> <20EFF736-7B4E-11DA-B9D5-000A95EA5592@well.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20EFF736-7B4E-11DA-B9D5-000A95EA5592@well.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Do-Not-Run: Yes X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 05:47:00 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1432 Lines: 33 Quoting jim stockford (jim@well.com): Just one comment, for starters: > * XEN or UML linux (virtual OS instances) are good, > but what's the learning curve? There is none. You don't need to know a blessed thing about how it's done under the hood -- if all you want to do is be a customer. If you use virtual-machine hosting, they've already done the job of setting up the virtual machine (VM) for you. You then get to have (basically) any Linux distro of your choosing within the virtual machine -- which you can then modify to suit yourself. Well, that's the bare-bones theory. In practice, they tell you "Look, because you'll be able to reach the VM only via remote login, we have to install something into it. We offer default installs of (say) current Slackware, Debian, or CentOS. Let us know which one you want." Once you ssh into that default install using the initial default root login password they tell you, you have complete run of the (virtual) machine, and can rearrange it to suit yourself. For example, if they gave you CentOS and you decide you prefer Debian, you would SSH in, and then do chroot installation (http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/DebianChrootInstall). The _only_ functional difference between a {XEN|UML} virtual machine and bare metal is that, in the former case, you are sharing machine CPU power, I/O capacity, etc. with other people's VMs. And it's about 85% cheaper. From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Jan 01 22:54:31 2006 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EtJaR-000378-1o by authid for ; Sun, 01 Jan 2006 22:54:31 -0800 Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 22:54:30 -0800 To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Something to consider for hosting--RFC Message-ID: <20060102065430.GM2513@linuxmafia.com> References: <528b20610601011929p3a11a954n3ce04b5f1aed9a25@mail.gmail.com> <20EFF736-7B4E-11DA-B9D5-000A95EA5592@well.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20EFF736-7B4E-11DA-B9D5-000A95EA5592@well.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Do-Not-Run: Yes X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 06:54:32 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 5564 Lines: 127 Further thoughts: Quoting jim stockford (jim@well.com): > * T-1 is better than sDSL is better than aDSL. Sure, but don't forget the driveway effect. Imagine a guy with an hour-long commute every morning. He decides to fix it, by putting banked, 50MPH-rated curves into his 1/4 mile driveway. And of course that really does no good, because the real bottleneck is the 45 mintes he spends going 15MPH on the freeway, not those 30 seconds reaching the street. Being on T-1 instead of aDSL is great if the site is heavily loaded, or if it routinely moves big bulk transfers of data. E.g., when my machine lived on T-1: o The building's LAN didn't break a sweat when I got slashdotted. o I maintained a full Debian package mirror (which was then "only" about 15GB). On aDSL: o The house LAN gets clobbered when I get slashdotted (but survives and is reachable, if barely). o No more full Debian mirror. (I don't have enough disk space, anyway.) Web servers that _aren't_ heavily loaded are rather like that guy with the long driveway. Most remote users, under most circumstances, will have at least one slow hop intervening that's sufficiently pokey that they'll have no way to tell the difference. Mind you, that's not to say that incredibly sucky aDSL can't be found. Try putting your Web server on typical SBC service, for example. ;-> > * Discounts for the charitable are great. People often think getting tax-exempt status is a lot easier than it really is. You more-or-less need to incorporate (or be under the wing of a corporation). The corporation must be non-profit. (Strictly speaking, you can alternatively use a trust or an "unincorporated association", but, a lot of the time, incorporation is involved.) _Also_, you must appeal to the IRS for a "determination letter" under Internal Revenue Code 501(c)(3) or one of the other similar categories. And then you wait for them to get around to you, which can take quite a long time. There are a bunch of responsibilities before and after the determination letter. For details, read IRS Publications 4220 and 4221. > MediaTemple is in Culver City. Web hosting > presents the risk of cost overages if storage or > bandwidth exceeds specs. What's the value of > being able to drive to the boxes and hang out > with the in situ wetware? Well, think about it: If you can visit the colo (which might or might not be restricted to certain hours), then you can hard-reboot. You can connect up a monitor and keyboard to diagnose. You can load stuff directly from CD-ROM, DVD, or USB flash drive. Absent that physical access, if the box becomes unreachable, you can telephone or e-mail the colo and have them send a rackmonkey over to power-cycle it or do some very rudimentary types of investigation. If that doesn't work, you can only (as appropriate) either have them PXE boot the box and overwrite it with some distro default load, or unrack it and FedEx it somewhere for investigation. The nice thing is: If you can live with those limitations, you can have your box (or virtual machine) be wherever on Earth offers you the best prices and most reasonable terms. Fancy colos with 24-hour hot-and-cold-running rackmonkeys, laughable for-show "high security" airlock-like mantraps and bullshit NDA-signing requirements imposed on all visitors add a lot to the monthly fees, and basically equate to "Customer has more money than brains, and copies what his golf buddies / resident VC overlord do." > There's a guy down the street from me who > has a T-1 line and wifi antennas all over his roof. > His clients are dozers who read their email and > sports in the evenings. He claims most of the > bandwidth is available and doesn't care if I hog > it somewhat. He claims I can have a static IP > address (don't know if that's a 10. etc.--let's > assume it's public). My bottleneck would be the > wifi connection between my back deck and his > roof. Given our good relations with him, we > could make our connection available to others, > too, for some consideration (money or help or > smiles). I'm not yet good enough to sysadm > the box, security, and entire set of servers. Sounds promising, though I'm not sure what the "make our connection available to others" bit refers to. I hope you do realise that people "reading mail and doing Web browsing" are the bandwidth vendor's dream customer. That's exactly the target market that the ISPs have tried to suck up to for years, while trying to discourage any serious-Internet-user customer who, say, pulls down lots of Linux/BSD ISO images, or runs a Web server -- let alone, say, streaming video. The ISP business (like the hosting business) has often involved overcommitting and overpromising limited bandwidth and machine resources, while hoping that most of your customers will (1) use very little of what they're paying for, and (2) not notice the impaired performance. If _you_ as a service provider don't do that, the other guy will, and will be able to undercut your prices. Which means, as long as it's a market where most of the customers have no idea what they're doing and can't tell good service from bad, you have a race for bottom dollar and consequently terrible service for everyone. More at: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/lexicon.html#moenslaw-bicycles > Opinions? Just pick something. It won't be perfect, and a whole bunch of people will tell you should have done something else, but their preferences would have had drawbacks, too, which they might not even be aware of. From rick@linuxmafia.com Mon Jan 02 01:01:30 2006 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EtLZJ-0006I3-N2 by authid for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2006 01:01:29 -0800 Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 01:01:29 -0800 From: Rick Moen To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. Message-ID: <20060102090128.GQ2501@linuxmafia.com> References: <20060102002714.GG2513@linuxmafia.com> <20060102021132.85253.qmail@web31402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20060102025115.GN2501@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-SA-Do-Not-Run: Yes X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 09:01:30 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 4288 Lines: 106 Quoting jim stockford (jim@well.com): > * (i had no idea CPUs and motherboards had > such nicknames.) Intel's been doing that for years. They'll take the inital letter or two of the _real_ model number and expand it out into some human-friendly name, which then becomes the nickname. > I'd like to know what are the > best choices for CPUs, motherboards, and > such in the first half of 2006. Ja, well, that's the trick, isn't it? You can garner a big pile of opinions, and then try to decide which are worth anything. I have a vague, fuzzy, and not-necessarily-easily-usable rule of thumb called Moen's Law of Hardware: "Use what the programmers use." More at: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/lexicon.html#moenslaw-hardware Facile theorising^W^WText at that URL explains the rationale and how it's been usefully applied in the past. It's not a by-the-numbers crystal ball for the near future, though. If you can find out to compelling levels of certainty what's going to be great computer hardware for the next few years, don't tell _us_: Keep it to yourself and make a fortune. "Best" implies a single monotonic scale of achievement, which is obviously a no-go when you realise that different situations demand different things. For example, at the moment, I'm so tired of the soprano whine in my living room[1] that "best" would be something _quiet_, small, and power-thrifty, probably light on CPU and with relative emphasis on I/O. I wouldn't give a damn about the video, since the box runs headless. By contrast, a gamer would want something noisy, flashy, and (by my standards) insanely overpowered in the CPU department, with some gonzo cutting-edge video chipset that yields the highest possible 3D framerate. Probably Nvidia Nforce4-whatever stuff, about which see: http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Hardware/sata.html#nvidia (Nvidia hardware has many impassioned fans, many of them 3D gamers, but it is not in general very open-source friendly.) > SATA is the way to go? SATA for the plebes and for non-performance-and-integrity-sensitive commodity boxes. Serial-Attached SCSI (SAS) for databases and such. PATA's gone (except as an attachment, for now, for CD/CDR/DVD drives and old HDs you haven't discarded, yet). Don't buy _new_ PATA HDs! That would be really dumb. > How about all-RAM systems? For tiny, special-purpose embedded applications, sure. Put the whole special-purpose OS build into CMOS and/or ROMs, and run it with a RAMdisk. Otherwise, sorry, not reasonable in any universe whose sky colour I know. > * What are the tradeoffs of do-it-at-your-house > vs colo (your box lives there) vs web hosting > (not your box)? Oh, you can (and, well, should) figure that one out from just logic and knowledge of how different situations work. > The downside of the Uncle Enzo solution > (and the cheap laptop solution) is that the > older he gets, the more likely is hardware > failure. Well, it's not just that. The electric draw of a 1998 rackmount 2U server is non-trivial, and probably is a significant amount of my PG&E bill. The delta between that and the draw from a $50 laptop might be recoverable in a couple of months. (I actually haven't done the math, so that's a SWAG[2].) > Once something goes (the drives, > controller, motherboard...), he's probably > permanently gone, as the money to > repair/replace is a bad spend, yes? Drives are an exception: I have a big pile of obsolete (but tested) SCSI drives in the garage. I also have a couple of spare compatible PSUs. The rest -- you're right -- except those are the parts that aren't failure-prone (except the fan on the PIII and the three 2" case fans). Absent overheating or power surges, the all-eletronic subassemblies tend to live almost forever. It's the mechanical parts that seize up and commit seppuku. Mind, you can then get cascading failures if, say, fan bearings fail, because you then get heat-induced stress and early death on this-and-that other part. [1] No, not Deirdre. She doesn't whine, and she's an alto, anyway. I refer to the PIII rackmount server box. [2] Silly Wild-Assed Guess. -- Cheers, Rick Moen "vi is my shepherd; I shall not font." rick@linuxmafia.com -- Psalm 0.1 beta From rick@linuxmafia.com Mon Jan 02 01:44:51 2006 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EtMFH-0006a0-8Q by authid for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2006 01:44:51 -0800 Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 01:44:50 -0800 From: Rick Moen To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. Message-ID: <20060102094450.GR2501@linuxmafia.com> References: <20060102002714.GG2513@linuxmafia.com> <20060102021132.85253.qmail@web31402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20060102025115.GN2501@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-SA-Do-Not-Run: Yes X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 09:44:52 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1838 Lines: 44 Er, not trying to overwhelm this thread, but an aspect of this that I think is worth stressing: Quoting jim stockford (jim@well.com): > I'd like to know what are the > best choices for CPUs, motherboards, and > such in the first half of 2006. In general, hold back from the new stuff that all the Ziff-Davis / CNet idiots push endlessly. If you read the text following "Moen's Law of Hardware" at http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/lexicon.html#moenslaw-hardware , you'll probably get the (correct) idea that I'm stressing that point strongly, because it's counter-intuitive to a lot of newcomers. There's an old techie joke: Q: How do you tell the pioneers in the computer field? A: By the arrows sticking out of their backs. You want someone else to be the pioneer. This point applies to all newly introduced _chipset_ that must have Linux support developed for it (e.g., video chips as to X11 graphics support, SATA, SCSI, sound, ethernet, softmodems, etc.). If you don't know what a "chipset" is, _learn_. ;-> Since you really don't want to have to rely on lame-ass proprietary drivers (if available at all), you want it to be likely that there are _good, well-tested_ open-source drivers. Which means you want to scrupulously avoid the shiny-new fashionable stuff -- along with the exotic stuff, the non-standard-protocols stuff, the cheap-shlock stuff, the new-chipset-every-week stuff. Ideally, you want bog-standard, medium-to-slightly-high quality chipsets that have been included in shipped systems/parts for at least a year. Personally, I like used stuff, which also avoids new-car 20% depreciation-in-the-first-block syndrome. ;-> -- Cheers, "Cthulhu loves me, this I know; because the High Priests tell me so! Rick Moen He won't eat me, no, not yet. He's my Elder God, dank and wet!" rick@linuxmafia.com From alamozzz@yahoo.com Mon Jan 02 08:23:35 2006 Received: from web31407.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.198.119]:35314) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EtSSc-0000XR-Uu for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2006 08:23:34 -0800 Received: (qmail 71018 invoked by uid 60001); 2 Jan 2006 16:22:55 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=KrKqpFDwQ8XlsiBg6H3cs/CVBDWwonTPl0kT5aioZIE7Qp6fFLjbZnU6Epr/Q9oTar/uo0WL+3bnOKEDRqnKNks7/Hg7Ngk4C17mKt1r/kcNtqrbJ/V6FtPiY33NzJMEwR++8lRcYQvTRNmNyi74oasE2mrZbuKSjR61ie/vJHY= ; Message-ID: <20060102162255.71016.qmail@web31407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.111.59.163] by web31407.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 02 Jan 2006 08:22:55 PST Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 08:22:55 -0800 (PST) From: Adrien Lamothe To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com In-Reply-To: <20EFF736-7B4E-11DA-B9D5-000A95EA5592@well.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of alamozzz@yahoo.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 68.142.198.119 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: alamozzz@yahoo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.2 required=4.0 tests=BAYES_00,HTML_10_20, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=3.1.0 Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Something to consider for hosting--RFC Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1656930209-1136218975=:68842" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 16:23:36 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 7209 Lines: 102 --0-1656930209-1136218975=:68842 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Your neighbor with the T-1 and WiFi sounds like a good solution. Just make sure you get his permission in writing; a man in Florida was recently prosecuted for using his neighbors WiFi without permission (the court thereby setting a precedent that using someone else's WiFi, even if the signal is unprotected, is illegal.) The sf-lug website will probably not require high bandwidth. But hey, bandwidth is good and it reminds me of the old saying "you can never be too rich or too handsome." Having your own server and control over it is good and will require you to learn a bunch of stuff. If you don't want to learn the sys admin stuff, then go with shared hosting at a provider. Cheers, Adrien Lamothe jim stockford wrote: RFC: I've gone round and round on this colo vs stick to what we've got vs web hosting that I'm dizzy. Issues: * It's a good, good thing that we members have root access to the boxes. Those of us who want to jump in will learn linux better. * It's a good thing that we members have physical access to the boxes. * It's a thing to save money: $15 per month is a better thing than $100 per month. * We assume the ability to tweak our web pages ourselves whenever we like. * T-1 is better than sDSL is better than aDSL. * Discounts for the charitable are great. * Sharing costs with others gets better situations at less cost but with possibly more confusion (the others may have root access, too). * XEN or UML linux (virtual OS instances) are good, but what's the learning curve? MediaTemple is in Culver City. Web hosting presents the risk of cost overages if storage or bandwidth exceeds specs. What's the value of being able to drive to the boxes and hang out with the in situ wetware? There's a guy down the street from me who has a T-1 line and wifi antennas all over his roof. His clients are dozers who read their email and sports in the evenings. He claims most of the bandwidth is available and doesn't care if I hog it somewhat. He claims I can have a static IP address (don't know if that's a 10. etc.--let's assume it's public). My bottleneck would be the wifi connection between my back deck and his roof. Given our good relations with him, we could make our connection available to others, too, for some consideration (money or help or smiles). I'm not yet good enough to sysadm the box, security, and entire set of servers. Your opinions? On Jan 1, 2006, at 7:29 PM, John Lowry wrote: > I have a few friends that work at a hosting company that can hook us > up with a %15 discount no problem if we decide to go that route and > have told me that once we get a non-profit tax code that we will get a > %40 discount. > They work at Media Temple > > www.mediatemple.net > > -- > John Lowry > > _______________________________________________ > sf-lug mailing list > sf-lug@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug _______________________________________________ sf-lug mailing list sf-lug@linuxmafia.com http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. --0-1656930209-1136218975=:68842 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Your neighbor with the T-1 and WiFi sounds like a good solution. Just make sure you get his permission in writing; a man in Florida was recently prosecuted for using his neighbors WiFi without permission (the court thereby setting a precedent that using someone else's WiFi, even if the signal is unprotected, is illegal.)

The sf-lug website will probably not require high bandwidth. But hey, bandwidth is good and it reminds me of the old saying "you can never be too rich or too handsome."

Having your own server and control over it is good and will require you to learn a bunch of stuff. If you don't want to learn the sys admin stuff, then go with shared hosting at a provider.

Cheers,

Adrien Lamothe


jim stockford <jim@well.com> wrote:

RFC:
I've gone round and round on this colo vs stick to
what we've got vs web hosting that I'm dizzy. Issues:
* It's a good, good thing that we members have root
access to the boxes. Those of us who want to jump
in will learn linux better.
* It's a good thing that we members have physical
access to the boxes.
* It's a thing to save money: $15 per month is a
better thing than $100 per month.
* We assume the ability to tweak our web pages
ourselves whenever we like.
* T-1 is better than sDSL is better than aDSL.
* Discounts for the charitable are great.
* Sharing costs with others gets better situations at
less cost but with possibly more confusion (the
others may have root access, too).
* XEN or UML linux (virtual OS instances) are good,
but what's the learning curve?

MediaTemple is in Culver City. Web hosting
presents the risk of cost overages if storage or
bandwidth exceeds specs. What's the value of
being able to drive to the boxes and hang out
with the in situ wetware?

There's a guy down the street from me who
has a T-1 line and wifi antennas all over his roof.
His clients are dozers who read their email and
sports in the evenings. He claims most of the
bandwidth is available and doesn't care if I hog
it somewhat. He claims I can have a static IP
address (don't know if that's a 10. etc.--let's
assume it's public). My bottleneck would be the
wifi connection between my back deck and his
roof. Given our good relations with him, we
could make our connection available to others,
too, for some consideration (money or help or
smiles). I'm not yet good enough to sysadm
the box, security, and entire set of servers.

Your opinions?


On Jan 1, 2006, at 7:29 PM, John Lowry wrote:

> I have a few friends that work at a hosting company that can hook us
> up with a %15 discount no problem if we decide to go that route and
> have told me that once we get a non-profit tax code that we will get a
> %40 discount.
> They work at Media Temple
>
> www.mediatemple.net
>
> --
> John Lowry
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug@linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug


_______________________________________________
sf-lug mailing list
sf-lug@linuxmafia.com
http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug

Yahoo! Photos
Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. --0-1656930209-1136218975=:68842-- From alamozzz@yahoo.com Mon Jan 02 08:38:44 2006 Received: from web31402.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.198.114]:37666) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EtSgD-0000aZ-L8 for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2006 08:38:43 -0800 Received: (qmail 63770 invoked by uid 60001); 2 Jan 2006 16:36:57 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=fzZeQZg1u2eG0TwPT9HXNuMpLppg4mW5j+XkV4Q3boWHjTj35qGIiP/QU986Bdw9Rty92tIC7nHQYMQ30WlbRRZZWRr6gF4qM/iQZdxq3Rd7ll/fzhjUpgYJJHNERzVZe2zLHmHA56ypBPE59VT6dPwmVlbgKxxLS6+/VHCSQ/U= ; Message-ID: <20060102163657.63768.qmail@web31402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.111.59.163] by web31402.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 02 Jan 2006 08:36:57 PST Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 08:36:57 -0800 (PST) From: Adrien Lamothe To: Rick Moen , sf-lug@linuxmafia.com In-Reply-To: <20060102065430.GM2513@linuxmafia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of alamozzz@yahoo.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 68.142.198.114 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: alamozzz@yahoo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.2 required=4.0 tests=BAYES_00,HTML_10_20, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=3.1.0 Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Something to consider for hosting--RFC Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-248633405-1136219817=:62776" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 16:38:45 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 12775 Lines: 159 --0-248633405-1136219817=:62776 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Rick Moen wrote: Further thoughts: Quoting jim stockford (jim@well.com): > * T-1 is better than sDSL is better than aDSL. Sure, but don't forget the driveway effect. Imagine a guy with an hour-long commute every morning. He decides to fix it, by putting banked, 50MPH-rated curves into his 1/4 mile driveway. And of course that really does no good, because the real bottleneck is the 45 mintes he spends going 15MPH on the freeway, not those 30 seconds reaching the street. Being on T-1 instead of aDSL is great if the site is heavily loaded, or if it routinely moves big bulk transfers of data. E.g., when my machine lived on T-1: o The building's LAN didn't break a sweat when I got slashdotted. o I maintained a full Debian package mirror (which was then "only" about 15GB). On aDSL: o The house LAN gets clobbered when I get slashdotted (but survives and is reachable, if barely). o No more full Debian mirror. (I don't have enough disk space, anyway.) Web servers that _aren't_ heavily loaded are rather like that guy with the long driveway. Most remote users, under most circumstances, will have at least one slow hop intervening that's sufficiently pokey that they'll have no way to tell the difference. Mind you, that's not to say that incredibly sucky aDSL can't be found. Try putting your Web server on typical SBC service, for example. ;-> > * Discounts for the charitable are great. People often think getting tax-exempt status is a lot easier than it really is. You more-or-less need to incorporate (or be under the wing of a corporation). The corporation must be non-profit. (Strictly speaking, you can alternatively use a trust or an "unincorporated association", but, a lot of the time, incorporation is involved.) _Also_, you must appeal to the IRS for a "determination letter" under Internal Revenue Code 501(c)(3) or one of the other similar categories. And then you wait for them to get around to you, which can take quite a long time. There are a bunch of responsibilities before and after the determination letter. For details, read IRS Publications 4220 and 4221. > MediaTemple is in Culver City. Web hosting > presents the risk of cost overages if storage or > bandwidth exceeds specs. What's the value of > being able to drive to the boxes and hang out > with the in situ wetware? Well, think about it: If you can visit the colo (which might or might not be restricted to certain hours), then you can hard-reboot. You can connect up a monitor and keyboard to diagnose. You can load stuff directly from CD-ROM, DVD, or USB flash drive. Absent that physical access, if the box becomes unreachable, you can telephone or e-mail the colo and have them send a rackmonkey over to power-cycle it or do some very rudimentary types of investigation. If that doesn't work, you can only (as appropriate) either have them PXE boot the box and overwrite it with some distro default load, or unrack it and FedEx it somewhere for investigation. The nice thing is: If you can live with those limitations, you can have your box (or virtual machine) be wherever on Earth offers you the best prices and most reasonable terms. Fancy colos with 24-hour hot-and-cold-running rackmonkeys, laughable for-show "high security" airlock-like mantraps and bullshit NDA-signing requirements imposed on all visitors add a lot to the monthly fees, and basically equate to "Customer has more money than brains, and copies what his golf buddies / resident VC overlord do." > There's a guy down the street from me who > has a T-1 line and wifi antennas all over his roof. > His clients are dozers who read their email and > sports in the evenings. He claims most of the > bandwidth is available and doesn't care if I hog > it somewhat. He claims I can have a static IP > address (don't know if that's a 10. etc.--let's > assume it's public). My bottleneck would be the > wifi connection between my back deck and his > roof. Given our good relations with him, we > could make our connection available to others, > too, for some consideration (money or help or > smiles). I'm not yet good enough to sysadm > the box, security, and entire set of servers. Sounds promising, though I'm not sure what the "make our connection available to others" bit refers to. I hope you do realise that people "reading mail and doing Web browsing" are the bandwidth vendor's dream customer. That's exactly the target market that the ISPs have tried to suck up to for years, while trying to discourage any serious-Internet-user customer who, say, pulls down lots of Linux/BSD ISO images, or runs a Web server -- let alone, say, streaming video. The ISP business (like the hosting business) has often involved overcommitting and overpromising limited bandwidth and machine resources, while hoping that most of your customers will (1) use very little of what they're paying for, and (2) not notice the impaired performance. If _you_ as a service provider don't do that, the other guy will, and will be able to undercut your prices. Which means, as long as it's a market where most of the customers have no idea what they're doing and can't tell good service from bad, you have a race for bottom dollar and consequently terrible service for everyone. More at: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/lexicon.html#moenslaw-bicycles > Opinions? Just pick something. It won't be perfect, and a whole bunch of people will tell you should have done something else, but their preferences would have had drawbacks, too, which they might not even be aware of. _______________________________________________ sf-lug mailing list sf-lug@linuxmafia.com http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. --0-248633405-1136219817=:62776 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


Rick Moen <rick@linuxmafia.com> wrote:
Further thoughts:

Quoting jim stockford (jim@well.com):

> * T-1 is better than sDSL is better than aDSL.

Sure, but don't forget the driveway effect.

Imagine a guy with an hour-long commute every morning. He decides
to fix it, by putting banked, 50MPH-rated curves into his 1/4 mile
driveway. And of course that really does no good, because the real
bottleneck is the 45 mintes he spends going 15MPH on the freeway,
not those 30 seconds reaching the street.

Being on T-1 instead of aDSL is great if the site is heavily loaded,
or if it routinely moves big bulk transfers of data. E.g., when my
machine lived on T-1:

o The building's LAN didn't break a sweat when I got slashdotted.
o I maintained a full Debian package mirror (which was then "only"
about 15GB).

On aDSL:

o The house LAN gets clobbered when I get slashdotted (but
survives and is reachable, if barely).
o No more full Debian mirror. (I don't have enough disk space,
anyway.)

Web servers that _aren't_ heavily loaded are rather like that guy with
the long driveway. Most remote users, under most circumstances, will
have at least one slow hop intervening that's sufficiently pokey that
they'll have no way to tell the difference.

Mind you, that's not to say that incredibly sucky aDSL can't be found.
Try putting your Web server on typical SBC service, for example. ;->


> * Discounts for the charitable are great.

People often think getting tax-exempt status is a lot easier than it
really is. You more-or-less need to incorporate (or be under the wing
of a corporation). The corporation must be non-profit. (Strictly
speaking, you can alternatively use a trust or an "unincorporated
association", but, a lot of the time, incorporation is involved.)
_Also_, you must appeal to the IRS for a "determination letter" under
Internal Revenue Code 501(c)(3) or one of the other similar categories.
And then you wait for them to get around to you, which can take quite a
long time.

There are a bunch of responsibilities before and after the determination
letter. For details, read IRS Publications 4220 and 4221.

> MediaTemple is in Culver City. Web hosting
> presents the risk of cost overages if storage or
> bandwidth exceeds specs. What's the value of
> being able to drive to the boxes and hang out
> with the in situ wetware?

Well, think about it: If you can visit the colo (which might or might
not be restricted to certain hours), then you can hard-reboot. You can
connect up a monitor and keyboard to diagnose. You can load stuff
directly from CD-ROM, DVD, or USB flash drive.

Absent that physical access, if the box becomes unreachable, you can
telephone or e-mail the colo and have them send a rackmonkey over to
power-cycle it or do some very rudimentary types of investigation.
If that doesn't work, you can only (as appropriate) either have them
PXE boot the box and overwrite it with some distro default load, or
unrack it and FedEx it somewhere for investigation.

The nice thing is: If you can live with those limitations, you can have
your box (or virtual machine) be wherever on Earth offers you the best
prices and most reasonable terms.

Fancy colos with 24-hour hot-and-cold-running rackmonkeys, laughable
for-show "high security" airlock-like mantraps and bullshit NDA-signing
requirements imposed on all visitors add a lot to the monthly fees, and
basically equate to "Customer has more money than brains, and copies
what his golf buddies / resident VC overlord do."

> There's a guy down the street from me who
> has a T-1 line and wifi antennas all over his roof.
> His clients are dozers who read their email and
> sports in the evenings. He claims most of the
> bandwidth is available and doesn't care if I hog
> it somewhat. He claims I can have a static IP
> address (don't know if that's a 10. etc.--let's
> assume it's public). My bottleneck would be the
> wifi connection between my back deck and his
> roof. Given our good relations with him, we
> could make our connection available to others,
> too, for some consideration (money or help or
> smiles). I'm not yet good enough to sysadm
> the box, security, and entire set of servers.

Sounds promising, though I'm not sure what the "make our connection
available to others" bit refers to.

I hope you do realise that people "reading mail and doing Web browsing"
are the bandwidth vendor's dream customer. That's exactly the target
market that the ISPs have tried to suck up to for years, while trying
to discourage any serious-Internet-user customer who, say, pulls down
lots of Linux/BSD ISO images, or runs a Web server -- let alone, say,
streaming video.

The ISP business (like the hosting business) has often involved
overcommitting and overpromising limited bandwidth and machine
resources, while hoping that most of your customers will (1) use
very little of what they're paying for, and (2) not notice the impaired
performance.

If _you_ as a service provider don't do that, the other guy will, and
will be able to undercut your prices. Which means, as long as it's
a market where most of the customers have no idea what they're doing
and can't tell good service from bad, you have a race for bottom dollar
and consequently terrible service for everyone. More at:
http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/lexicon.html#moenslaw-bicycles

> Opinions?

Just pick something. It won't be perfect, and a whole bunch of people
will tell you should have done something else, but their preferences
would have had drawbacks, too, which they might not even be aware of.



_______________________________________________
sf-lug mailing list
sf-lug@linuxmafia.com
http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug

Yahoo! Photos
Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. --0-248633405-1136219817=:62776-- From alamozzz@yahoo.com Mon Jan 02 08:41:14 2006 Received: from web31406.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.198.118]:26092) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EtSk1-0000dC-Mw for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2006 08:41:14 -0800 Received: (qmail 45784 invoked by uid 60001); 2 Jan 2006 16:40:53 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=UXou1on/ev7X9kF/k58zyE3Fr9Z4EOJGY+SQSDo9qUKSNRJimjKqZTD+pZ242b8cAym7InYx5Vjm2to5cp/3CVCOOw80m4Khjoldm/+nt/s1nSxilz/LS7/tr8bO1ycgZ2FsHhVwacCXqdMI2aAG0EZbQR/rAB9ugDsAgU2uh1w= ; Message-ID: <20060102164053.45782.qmail@web31406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.111.59.163] by web31406.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 02 Jan 2006 08:40:53 PST Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 08:40:53 -0800 (PST) From: Adrien Lamothe To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of alamozzz@yahoo.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 68.142.198.118 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: alamozzz@yahoo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=3.1.0 Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Something to consider for hosting--RFC Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-593117324-1136220053=:44159" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 16:41:15 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2758 Lines: 40 --0-593117324-1136220053=:44159 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> * Discounts for the charitable are great. >People often think getting tax-exempt status is a lot easier than it >really is. You more-or-less need to incorporate (or be under the wing >of a corporation). The corporation must be non-profit. (Strictly >speaking, you can alternatively use a trust or an "unincorporated >association", but, a lot of the time, incorporation is involved.) >_Also_, you must appeal to the IRS for a "determination letter" under >Internal Revenue Code 501(c)(3) or one of the other similar categories. >And then you wait for them to get around to you, which can take quite a >long time. >There are a bunch of responsibilities before and after the >determination letter. For details, read IRS Publications 4220 and 4221. Why do you want sf-lug to exist as a non-profit? Unless it is a large group with lots of expenses (think BMUG, may it RIP) it doesn't make any sense to do that and it will be way more hassle than it is worth. - Adrien Lamothe --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. --0-593117324-1136220053=:44159 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>> * Discounts for the charitable are great.

>People often think getting tax-exempt status is a lot easier than it
>really is.  You more-or-less need to incorporate (or be under the wing
>of a corporation).  The corporation must be non-profit.  (Strictly
>speaking, you can alternatively use a trust or an "unincorporated
>association", but, a lot of the time, incorporation is involved.)
>_Also_, you must appeal to the IRS for a "determination letter" under
>Internal Revenue Code 501(c)(3) or one of the other similar categories.
>And then you wait for them to get around to you, which can take quite a
>long time.

>There are a bunch of responsibilities before and after the
>determination letter.  For details, read IRS Publications 4220 and 4221.


Why do you want sf-lug to exist as a non-profit? Unless it is a large group with lots of expenses (think BMUG, may it RIP) it doesn't make any sense to do that and it will be way more hassle than it is worth.

- Adrien Lamothe

Yahoo! Photos
Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. --0-593117324-1136220053=:44159-- From alamozzz@yahoo.com Mon Jan 02 08:50:54 2006 Received: from web31402.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.198.114]:22612) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EtStN-0000fg-Eq for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2006 08:50:53 -0800 Received: (qmail 69116 invoked by uid 60001); 2 Jan 2006 16:50:34 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=D3ukLmcJfYYpVVeiGQS3KANLLTBCBhAYMHaTiwBcN9EzUBbcldJKCAaJ/nvvwMYrFM1w0OCTZNaoaz1YxqMBO6M+5LeoxQ5yfMWQPe5V07orlOMtyzdXPQ1IaEtXkUgn3RfT7/qdlBcb2YrtWD6isDpinTLe7nlc4ggQL+enxtM= ; Message-ID: <20060102165034.69114.qmail@web31402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.111.59.163] by web31402.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 02 Jan 2006 08:50:34 PST Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 08:50:34 -0800 (PST) From: Adrien Lamothe To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of alamozzz@yahoo.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 68.142.198.114 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: alamozzz@yahoo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_10_20, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=3.1.0 Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-451405207-1136220634=:68313" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 16:50:54 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2718 Lines: 29 --0-451405207-1136220634=:68313 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Ja, well, that's the trick, isn't it? You can garner a big pile of >opinions, and then try to decide which are worth anything. I have a >vague, fuzzy, and not-necessarily-easily-usable rule of thumb called >Moen's Law of Hardware: "Use what the programmers use." More at: >http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/lexicon.html#moenslaw-hardware My rule for choosing new, "bleeding edge" hardware, which I have employed with great success, is called "Use what the gamers use." Computer gamers are the most insatiable, curious, and often technically knowledgable consumers of computer hardware. Sites such as http://www.anandtech.com and http://www.tomshardware.com do a good job of evaluating the latest hardware. While on the subject, using AMD-based systems is a pretty safe bet these days. The big excitment will happen in March or April, when Sony releases the Playstation 3, which is based on the new IBM/Sony/Toshiba "Cell" processor. IBM has ported Linux to the Cell and Sony plans to use Linux as the operating system. - Adrien Lamothe --------------------------------- Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less --0-451405207-1136220634=:68313 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>Ja, well, that's the trick, isn't it?  You can garner a big pile of
>opinions, and then try to decide which are worth anything.  I have a
>vague, fuzzy, and not-necessarily-easily-usable rule of thumb called
>Moen's Law of Hardware:  "Use what the programmers use."  More at:
>http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/lexicon.html#moenslaw-hardware

My rule for choosing new, "bleeding edge" hardware, which I have employed with great success, is called "Use what the gamers use." Computer gamers are the most insatiable, curious, and often technically knowledgable consumers of computer hardware. Sites such as http://www.anandtech.com and http://www.tomshardware.com do a good job of evaluating the latest hardware. While on the subject, using AMD-based systems is a pretty safe bet these days. The big excitment will happen in March or April, when Sony releases the Playstation 3, which is based on the new IBM/Sony/Toshiba "Cell" processor. IBM has ported Linux to the Cell and Sony plans to use Linux as the operating system.

- Adrien Lamothe

Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less --0-451405207-1136220634=:68313-- From rick@linuxmafia.com Mon Jan 02 10:53:07 2006 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EtUnq-0001MD-Nm by authid for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2006 10:53:06 -0800 Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 10:53:06 -0800 To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Something to consider for hosting--RFC Message-ID: <20060102185305.GO2513@linuxmafia.com> References: <20060102164053.45782.qmail@web31406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060102164053.45782.qmail@web31406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Do-Not-Run: Yes X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 18:53:07 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 501 Lines: 12 Quoting Adrien Lamothe (alamozzz@yahoo.com): > Why do you want sf-lug to exist as a non-profit? Unless it is a large > group with lots of expenses (think BMUG, may it RIP) it doesn't make > any sense to do that and it will be way more hassle than it is worth. I hope you're intending that question for _Jim_, not me: Jim seemed to be speaking of how nice it would be to have tax-exempt charitable status; I was pointing out in response that it's probably a lot more hassle than it's worth. ;-> From rick@linuxmafia.com Mon Jan 02 11:19:14 2006 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EtVD7-0001cV-RQ by authid for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2006 11:19:13 -0800 Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 11:19:13 -0800 To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. Message-ID: <20060102191913.GP2513@linuxmafia.com> References: <20060102165034.69114.qmail@web31402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060102165034.69114.qmail@web31402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Do-Not-Run: Yes X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 19:19:15 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1705 Lines: 38 Quoting Adrien Lamothe (alamozzz@yahoo.com): > My rule for choosing new, "bleeding edge" hardware, which I have > employed with great success, is called "Use what the gamers use." > Computer gamers are the most insatiable, curious, and often > technically knowledgable consumers of computer hardware. They also not only have no objection to dependency on proprietary drivers; they flock to it. Worse, they favour systems that are grossly out of balance by normal-usage standards: heavy on CPU and video processing power, relatively deficient in I/O. During the tech collapse, when the rest of the computer market took a tumble, gamers dominated briefly because they were practically the only people buying new hardware, and therefore manufacturers loved them. Portable system boxes from Shuttle and Alienware popped up with transparent cases with neon-lit highlights, and brightly coloured motherboards. Gamer kids suddenly started apppearing on Linux mailing list dispensing hardware advice, and, when you objected that you didn't think it was a good idea leaping to brand-new video, SATA, and ethernet chipsets that work on Linux only with proprietary binary-only drivers, were told with a sneer that obviously you weren't serious about performance. And, it turns out that they're basically all about _MS-Windows_ gaming, anyway, and Linux is an afterthought. I read Anandtech and Tom's Hardware from time to time; the opinions are interesting but _utterly_ Windows-centric -- as are 100% of their test results and benchmarks. > While on the subject, using AMD-based systems is a pretty safe bet > these days. Use only 2.6 kernels on Opterons. 2.4 has problem, there (and on EM64T, too). From jmg999@juno.com Mon Jan 02 11:24:41 2006 Received: from outbound-mail.nyc.untd.com ([64.136.20.164]:64954) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EtVI4-0001eG-Cj for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2006 11:24:40 -0800 Received: from webmail43.nyc.untd.com (webmail43.nyc.untd.com [10.141.27.183]) by smtpout06.nyc.untd.com with SMTP id AABB5U9P7ABTPEX2 for (sender ); Mon, 2 Jan 2006 11:23:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jmg999@juno.com) by webmail43.nyc.untd.com (jqueuemail) id LDQX8VGA; Mon, 02 Jan 2006 11:23:13 PST Received: from [67.103.44.2] by webmail43.nyc.untd.com with HTTP: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 19:22:23 GMT X-Originating-IP: [67.103.44.2] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "Jeffe" X-UOL-SENDER: jmg999@juno.com Sender: jmg999@juno.com Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 19:22:23 GMT To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailer: Webmail Version 4.0 Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <20060102.112313.16132.66968@webmail43.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 34:17:2971916886 X-MAIL-INFO: 40d56565d519456519458d01452d1d4c9869f1c50d555d59891cf149e8ec6c39551c6ce9d5a1fc35fce52d01196dfc00e1f5d9d9f5a9d8d9a9d88861d89871b500392c58b9bc3d49b8852c91819d7c89ad055c75955c31add1ac98f50dd8c995697908d57908fc45656d0821298d388cac0d2989596815e81ccc4da51555ecb8a165ecd5ac1919cce5d53d495cf59dada818ada998a8dd18dd08853dcddca5358158483ccd3d7111f9edad58d82108b8d17515add9bc09d911dc48f548880138d9489169881898c8d908f84df16cbcb961a168bd1cece875a10925e57decc58c6c0958ac19fc X-UNTD-OriginStamp: t9yiw8e2vIr3ImkRkKyhooIWadf8ufJwU02d8/AEptSjWc1i2ImoOQ== X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 10.141.27.183|webmail43.nyc.untd.com|webmail43.nyc.untd.com|jmg999@juno.com Received-SPF: pass (linuxmafia.com: domain of jmg999@juno.com designates 64.136.20.164 as permitted sender) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 64.136.20.164 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jmg999@juno.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.7 required=4.0 tests=BAYES_00,FORGED_JUNO_RCVD autolearn=no version=3.1.0 Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 19:24:41 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 4991 Lines: 124 Please remove me from this list. It's really irritating to receive 55 e= -mails everyday from you guys. You should really look into an online fo= rum. -- Rick Moen wrote: Return-Path: Received: from mx15.lax.untd.com (mx15.lax.untd.com [10.130.24.75]) by maildeliver24.nyc.untd.com with SMTP id AABB5U9HXA3DQAYS for (sender ); Mon, 2 Jan 2006 11:20:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from linuxmafia.com (linuxmafia.com [198.144.195.186]) by mx15.lax.untd.com with SMTP id AABB5U9HXAFQ6M9S for (sender ); Mon, 2 Jan 2006 11:20:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.rawbw.com ([127.0.0.1]:48365 helo=3Dlinuxmafia.= com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EtVDI-0001ca-Rj ; Mon, 02 Jan 2006 11:19:26 -0800 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConf= ig 2.0)) id 1EtVD7-0001cV-RQ by authid = for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2006 11:19:13 -0800 Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 11:19:13 -0800 To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20060102191913.GP2513@linuxmafia.com> References: <20060102165034.69114.qmail@web31402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060102165034.69114.qmail@web31402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i From: Rick Moen X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: sf-lug-bounces@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: sf-lug-bounces@linuxmafia.com X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig= ) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: sf-lug-bounces@linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.co= m X-Spam-Level: = X-Spam-Status: No, score=3D-4.4 required=3D4.0 tests=3DALL_TRUSTED,BAYES= _00 = autolearn=3Dunavailable version=3D3.1.0 Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-ContentStamp: 11:5:3682511178 X-MAIL-INFO:5bd90d0dd9a1f50da1f5843df54d951035304519747138897d1545905d04= 79e5711579c1d985b970b9014d3da1d5b981 X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 198.144.195.186|linuxmafia.com|linuxmafia.com|sf-lug-b= ounces@linuxmafia.com X-UNTD-UBE:-1 Quoting Adrien Lamothe (alamozzz@yahoo.com): > My rule for choosing new, "bleeding edge" hardware, which I have > employed with great success, is called "Use what the gamers use." > Computer gamers are the most insatiable, curious, and often > technically knowledgable consumers of computer hardware. = They also not only have no objection to dependency on proprietary drivers; they flock to it. Worse, they favour systems that are grossly out of balance by normal-usage standards: heavy on CPU and video processing power, relatively deficient in I/O. During the tech collapse, when the rest of the computer market took a tumble, gamers dominated briefly because they were practically the only people buying new hardware, and therefore manufacturers loved them. Portable system boxes from Shuttle and Alienware popped up with transparent cases with neon-lit highlights, and brightly coloured motherboards. Gamer kids suddenly started apppearing on Linux mailing list dispensing hardware advice, and, when you objected that you didn't think it was a good idea leaping to brand-new video, SATA, and ethernet chipsets that work on Linux only with proprietary binary-only drivers, were told with a sneer that obviously you weren't serious about performance. And, it turns out that they're basically all about _MS-Windows_ gaming, anyway, and Linux is an afterthought. I read Anandtech and Tom's Hardware from time to time; the opinions are interesting but _utterly_ Windows-centric -- as are 100% of their test results and benchmarks. > While on the subject, using AMD-based systems is a pretty safe bet > these days. = Use only 2.6 kernels on Opterons. 2.4 has problem, there (and on EM64T,= too). _______________________________________________ sf-lug mailing list sf-lug@linuxmafia.com http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug ___________________________________________________________________ Try Juno Platinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month! Unlimited Internet Access with 250MB of Email Storage. Visit http://www.juno.com/value to sign up today! From rick@linuxmafia.com Mon Jan 02 11:40:08 2006 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EtVXL-0001iE-AD by authid for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2006 11:40:07 -0800 Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 11:40:06 -0800 To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. Message-ID: <20060102194006.GQ2513@linuxmafia.com> References: <20060102.112313.16132.66968@webmail43.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060102.112313.16132.66968@webmail43.nyc.untd.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Do-Not-Run: Yes X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 19:40:08 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 615 Lines: 18 Quoting Jeffe (jmg999@juno.com): > Please remove me from this list. I'm not the listadmin, but unsubscribing from mailing lists you've chosen to join, rather like bathing and brushing your teeth, is something you're expected to do for yourself. Notice the footer at the bottom of each and every post, including yours? It includes a URL where you can do that -- so you have no excuse for claiming to be unable. > It's really irritating to receive 55 e-mails everyday from you guys. You might also be aware that you can set your subscription to digest mode -- to get digests rather than a copy of each post. From jim@well.com Mon Jan 02 12:56:04 2006 Received: from smtp.well.com ([206.80.4.7]:44511) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EtWi6-00027o-4J for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2006 12:56:04 -0800 Received: from [192.168.1.101] (dsl081-061-186.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.61.186]) by smtp.well.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k02KsS0n023823; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 12:55:14 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20060102.112313.16132.66968@webmail43.nyc.untd.com> References: <20060102.112313.16132.66968@webmail43.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Message-Id: <46CCD910-7BD2-11DA-B9D5-000A95EA5592@well.com> From: jim stockford Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 12:56:42 -0800 To: "Jeffe" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.87.1/1225/Mon Jan 2 09:54:07 2006 on smtp.well.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of jim@well.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 206.80.4.7 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jim@well.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=4.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Cc: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com Subject: [sf-lug] email statistics for sf-lug mailing list X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 20:56:05 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 6264 Lines: 161 i hate to lose you, Jeffe. What about batch mode-- you receive just one email per day with whatever the day's activity, which many days is none (so no batch mail that day, either). You can make the change yourself; let me know and I'll change however you want. As a note, sf-lug email averages about 3.5 emails per day since we started May 24 2004. The following lists all days that had email of 10 or more for the day. 2006 Jan 2: 9 Jan 1: 13 # this mail will make it 10 for Jan 2: 2005 oct 6: 10 Aug 8: 17 Aug 2: 11 Jul 8: 11 2004 Oct 12: 16 Oct 12: 11 Oct 8: 12 Oct 6 15 Sep 29: 12 Sep 15: 14 Sep 13: 11 Sep 2 13 Aug 16: 16 Aug 12: 15 Aug 3: 11 Aug 2: 10 Jul 27: 26 Jul 19: 21 Jul 16: 12 Jul 8: 26 Jul 6: 19 Jul 5: 22 Jun 24: 18 Jun 23: 16 And the winner is... A tie between July 6, 2004 and July 27, 2004, each shuddering under the burden of 26 emails. On Jan 2, 2006, at 11:22 AM, Jeffe wrote: > Please remove me from this list. It's really irritating to receive 55 > e-mails everyday from you guys. You should really look into an online > forum. > > > > -- Rick Moen wrote: > Return-Path: > Received: from mx15.lax.untd.com (mx15.lax.untd.com [10.130.24.75]) > by maildeliver24.nyc.untd.com with SMTP id AABB5U9HXA3DQAYS > for (sender ); > Mon, 2 Jan 2006 11:20:21 -0800 (PST) > Received: from linuxmafia.com (linuxmafia.com [198.144.195.186]) > by mx15.lax.untd.com with SMTP id AABB5U9HXAFQ6M9S > for (sender ); > Mon, 2 Jan 2006 11:20:21 -0800 (PST) > Received: from localhost.rawbw.com ([127.0.0.1]:48365 > helo=linuxmafia.com) > by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) > id 1EtVDI-0001ca-Rj ; Mon, 02 Jan 2006 11:19:26 -0800 > Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.54 #1 > (EximConfig > 2.0)) id 1EtVD7-0001cV-RQ by authid > for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2006 11:19:13 -0800 > Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 11:19:13 -0800 > To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com > Message-ID: <20060102191913.GP2513@linuxmafia.com> > References: <20060102165034.69114.qmail@web31402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Disposition: inline > In-Reply-To: <20060102165034.69114.qmail@web31402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > X-Mas: Bah humbug. > User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i > From: Rick Moen > X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com > X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 > Precedence: list > List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list > > List-Unsubscribe: , > > List-Archive: > List-Post: > List-Help: > List-Subscribe: , > > Sender: sf-lug-bounces@linuxmafia.com > Errors-To: sf-lug-bounces@linuxmafia.com > X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com > (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) > X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 > X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: sf-lug-bounces@linuxmafia.com > X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on > linuxmafia.com > X-Spam-Level: > X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 > autolearn=unavailable version=3.1.0 > Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) > X-ContentStamp: 11:5:3682511178 > X-MAIL-INFO: > 5bd90d0dd9a1f50da1f5843df54d951035304519747138897d1545905d0479e5711579c > 1d985b970b9014d3da1d5b981 > X-UNTD-Peer-Info: > 198.144.195.186|linuxmafia.com|linuxmafia.com|sf-lug- > bounces@linuxmafia.com > X-UNTD-UBE:-1 > Quoting Adrien Lamothe (alamozzz@yahoo.com): > >> My rule for choosing new, "bleeding edge" hardware, which I have >> employed with great success, is called "Use what the gamers use." >> Computer gamers are the most insatiable, curious, and often >> technically knowledgable consumers of computer hardware. > > They also not only have no objection to dependency on proprietary > drivers; they flock to it. Worse, they favour systems that are grossly > out of balance by normal-usage standards: heavy on CPU and video > processing power, relatively deficient in I/O. > > During the tech collapse, when the rest of the computer market took a > tumble, gamers dominated briefly because they were practically the only > people buying new hardware, and therefore manufacturers loved them. > Portable system boxes from Shuttle and Alienware popped up with > transparent cases with neon-lit highlights, and brightly coloured > motherboards. Gamer kids suddenly started apppearing on Linux mailing > list dispensing hardware advice, and, when you objected that you didn't > think it was a good idea leaping to brand-new video, SATA, and ethernet > chipsets that work on Linux only with proprietary binary-only drivers, > were told with a sneer that obviously you weren't serious about > performance. > > And, it turns out that they're basically all about _MS-Windows_ gaming, > anyway, and Linux is an afterthought. > > I read Anandtech and Tom's Hardware from time to time; the opinions are > interesting but _utterly_ Windows-centric -- as are 100% of their test > results and benchmarks. > >> While on the subject, using AMD-based systems is a pretty safe bet >> these days. > > Use only 2.6 kernels on Opterons. 2.4 has problem, there (and on > EM64T, > too). > > > _______________________________________________ > sf-lug mailing list > sf-lug@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > Try Juno Platinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month! > Unlimited Internet Access with 250MB of Email Storage. > Visit http://www.juno.com/value to sign up today! > > > _______________________________________________ > sf-lug mailing list > sf-lug@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug > From alamozzz@yahoo.com Mon Jan 02 22:30:44 2006 Received: from web31408.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.198.120]:27673) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1Etfgc-0005Xh-LU for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2006 22:30:43 -0800 Received: (qmail 63515 invoked by uid 60001); 3 Jan 2006 06:30:14 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=4wfXKLVPC/YYjrSDOGW4pxfdKMisBo5/LPU3VJfa5sgPNn3BAu9de6BKNujHUMQBZo9qOVqqpMsiiC9l2fYQmBudiy8hZgRVA6ApFQ/wSSxa/vpdghAA5ri2nh68YyA4Wppbf0YC7dj9CseTf9cGTgdJmRPAP9470LqY0+upimY= ; Message-ID: <20060103063014.63513.qmail@web31408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.224.6.226] by web31408.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 02 Jan 2006 22:30:14 PST Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 22:30:14 -0800 (PST) From: Adrien Lamothe To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of alamozzz@yahoo.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 68.142.198.120 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: alamozzz@yahoo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.8 required=4.0 tests=BAYES_00,HTML_00_10, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=3.1.0 Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-270575227-1136269814=:62309" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 06:30:45 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 5154 Lines: 40 --0-270575227-1136269814=:62309 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >They also not only have no objection to dependency on proprietary >drivers; they flock to it. Worse, they favour systems that are grossly >out of balance by normal-usage standards: heavy on CPU and video >processing power, relatively deficient in I/O. I've done some work for an internet cafe, helping to set up and configure game servers running Linux to host the game Half-Life. We've run SuSE, Slackware, Debian and Red Hat successfully on hardware that would probably qualify as "grossly out of balance." So far the servers have worked without a hitch. >I read Anandtech and Tom's Hardware from time to time; the opinions are >interesting but _utterly_ Windows-centric -- as are 100% of their test >results and benchmarks. Well, I've probably been spoiled, because I've been using SuSE Linux, since version 5.1. I've installed SuSE on many systems, some of them purchased at thrift shops, others brand new that I've built for myself and others, and name-brand systems purchased at places like CompUSA. SuSE always worked, out of the box, without problem, on whatever hardware I installed it on. So, when I've gone to AnandTech and Toms Hardware for research, I've found their advice regarding hardware issues (stability, which components play nice with each other, etc.) useful, even from a Linux perspective. I've recently evaluated several Debian-based distros, due to uncertainty about events at Novell/SuSE and problems experienced with SuSE 10.0. I've tried Kanotix 3-2005, Kubuntu 5.10, and Simply Mepis. So far, I've had problems with all three of those distros, from not installing to having the system lock-up. These problems occurred on several different computers, the same computers that are able to run SuSE 9.3 without a hitch. I hope to one day play around with Debian package management, but I'll have to put that day on hold until I find a Debian distro that actually works. Now I understand why much of the activity at Cabal meetings involves trying to get Debian working on all the different systems people bring; I always thought it odd that so much time was spent on that. I have seen Debian working on systems at Cabal, so I know it can be done. Cheers, Adrien Lamothe --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. --0-270575227-1136269814=:62309 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>They also not only have no objection to dependency on proprietary
>drivers; they flock to it. Worse, they favour systems that are grossly
>out of balance by normal-usage standards: heavy on CPU and video
>processing power, relatively deficient in I/O.

I've done some work for an internet cafe, helping to set up and configure game servers running Linux to host the game Half-Life. We've run SuSE, Slackware, Debian and Red Hat successfully on hardware that would probably qualify as "grossly out of balance." So far the servers have worked without a hitch.

>I read Anandtech and Tom's Hardware from time to time; the opinions are
>interesting but _utterly_ Windows-centric -- as are 100% of their test
>results and benchmarks.

Well, I've probably been spoiled, because I've been using SuSE Linux, since version 5.1. I've installed SuSE on many systems, some of them purchased at thrift shops, others brand new that I've built for myself and others, and name-brand systems purchased at places like CompUSA. SuSE always worked, out of the box, without problem, on whatever hardware I installed it on. So, when I've gone to AnandTech and Toms Hardware for research, I've found their advice regarding hardware issues (stability, which components play nice with each other, etc.) useful, even from a Linux perspective.

I've recently evaluated several Debian-based distros, due to uncertainty about events at Novell/SuSE and problems experienced with SuSE 10.0. I've tried Kanotix 3-2005, Kubuntu 5.10, and Simply Mepis. So far, I've had problems with all three of those distros, from not installing to having the system lock-up. These problems occurred on several different computers, the same computers that are able to run SuSE 9.3 without a hitch. I hope to one day play around with Debian package management, but I'll have to put that day on hold until I find a Debian distro that actually works. Now I understand why much of the activity at Cabal meetings involves trying to get Debian working on all the different systems people bring; I always thought it odd that so much time was spent on that. I have seen Debian working on systems at Cabal, so I know it can be done.

Cheers,

Adrien Lamothe

Yahoo! Photos
Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. --0-270575227-1136269814=:62309-- From alamozzz@yahoo.com Mon Jan 02 22:33:42 2006 Received: from web31413.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.198.125]:41975) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1Etfj4-0005Yj-R4 for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2006 22:33:41 -0800 Received: (qmail 97335 invoked by uid 60001); 3 Jan 2006 06:32:47 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=E0H0DpEVSt1QGlKGbsbt0X4MgN7SL8cazehmAFIDD3I2NBxkOinyzJr2WCsB4+XsVo3yUK44sGs0ymLs8Fvy5EPvnifzzDVbZqxds/3Asgw0rGTQndvEzkTMVe8Imh8NgtziubJx/8dWXKc77eHWYytZOCZQKd3Ze00P2Zya3AU= ; Message-ID: <20060103063247.97333.qmail@web31413.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.224.6.226] by web31413.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 02 Jan 2006 22:32:47 PST Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 22:32:47 -0800 (PST) From: Adrien Lamothe To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com In-Reply-To: <20060102.112313.16132.66968@webmail43.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of alamozzz@yahoo.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 68.142.198.125 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: alamozzz@yahoo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.2 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=3.1.0 Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-581174777-1136269967=:95985" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 06:33:43 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 11675 Lines: 142 --0-581174777-1136269967=:95985 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Excuse me, Jeffe, but that is precisely what this type of mailing list is intended for. You can choose to receive weekly digests of the postings, so all the messages are in one file. I'm sorry you misunderstood how this type of forum works. Jeffe wrote: Please remove me from this list. It's really irritating to receive 55 e-mails everyday from you guys. You should really look into an online forum. -- Rick Moen wrote: Return-Path: Received: from mx15.lax.untd.com (mx15.lax.untd.com [10.130.24.75]) by maildeliver24.nyc.untd.com with SMTP id AABB5U9HXA3DQAYS for (sender ); Mon, 2 Jan 2006 11:20:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from linuxmafia.com (linuxmafia.com [198.144.195.186]) by mx15.lax.untd.com with SMTP id AABB5U9HXAFQ6M9S for (sender ); Mon, 2 Jan 2006 11:20:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.rawbw.com ([127.0.0.1]:48365 helo=linuxmafia.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EtVDI-0001ca-Rj ; Mon, 02 Jan 2006 11:19:26 -0800 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EtVD7-0001cV-RQ by authid for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2006 11:19:13 -0800 Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 11:19:13 -0800 To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20060102191913.GP2513@linuxmafia.com> References: <20060102165034.69114.qmail@web31402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060102165034.69114.qmail@web31402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i From: Rick Moen X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: sf-lug-bounces@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: sf-lug-bounces@linuxmafia.com X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: sf-lug-bounces@linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=unavailable version=3.1.0 Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-ContentStamp: 11:5:3682511178 X-MAIL-INFO:5bd90d0dd9a1f50da1f5843df54d951035304519747138897d1545905d0479e5711579c1d985b970b9014d3da1d5b981 X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 198.144.195.186|linuxmafia.com|linuxmafia.com|sf-lug-bounces@linuxmafia.com X-UNTD-UBE:-1 Quoting Adrien Lamothe (alamozzz@yahoo.com): > My rule for choosing new, "bleeding edge" hardware, which I have > employed with great success, is called "Use what the gamers use." > Computer gamers are the most insatiable, curious, and often > technically knowledgable consumers of computer hardware. They also not only have no objection to dependency on proprietary drivers; they flock to it. Worse, they favour systems that are grossly out of balance by normal-usage standards: heavy on CPU and video processing power, relatively deficient in I/O. During the tech collapse, when the rest of the computer market took a tumble, gamers dominated briefly because they were practically the only people buying new hardware, and therefore manufacturers loved them. Portable system boxes from Shuttle and Alienware popped up with transparent cases with neon-lit highlights, and brightly coloured motherboards. Gamer kids suddenly started apppearing on Linux mailing list dispensing hardware advice, and, when you objected that you didn't think it was a good idea leaping to brand-new video, SATA, and ethernet chipsets that work on Linux only with proprietary binary-only drivers, were told with a sneer that obviously you weren't serious about performance. And, it turns out that they're basically all about _MS-Windows_ gaming, anyway, and Linux is an afterthought. I read Anandtech and Tom's Hardware from time to time; the opinions are interesting but _utterly_ Windows-centric -- as are 100% of their test results and benchmarks. > While on the subject, using AMD-based systems is a pretty safe bet > these days. Use only 2.6 kernels on Opterons. 2.4 has problem, there (and on EM64T, too). _______________________________________________ sf-lug mailing list sf-lug@linuxmafia.com http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug ___________________________________________________________________ Try Juno Platinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month! Unlimited Internet Access with 250MB of Email Storage. Visit http://www.juno.com/value to sign up today! _______________________________________________ sf-lug mailing list sf-lug@linuxmafia.com http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug --------------------------------- Yahoo! Shopping Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping --0-581174777-1136269967=:95985 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Excuse me, Jeffe, but that is precisely what this type of mailing list is intended for. You can choose to receive weekly digests of the postings, so all the messages are in one file. I'm sorry you misunderstood how this type of forum works.


Jeffe <jmg999@juno.com> wrote:
Please remove me from this list. It's really irritating to receive 55 e-mails everyday from you guys. You should really look into an online forum.



-- Rick Moen wrote:
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X-MAIL-INFO:5bd90d0dd9a1f50da1f5843df54d951035304519747138897d1545905d0479e5711579c1d985b970b9014d3da1d5b981
X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 198.144.195.186|linuxmafia.com|linuxmafia.com|sf-lug-bounces@linuxmafia.com
X-UNTD-UBE:-1
Quoting Adrien Lamothe (alamozzz@yahoo.com):

> My rule for choosing new, "bleeding edge" hardware, which I have
> employed with great success, is called "Use what the gamers use."
> Computer gamers are the most insatiable, curious, and often
> technically knowledgable consumers of computer hardware.

They also not only have no objection to dependency on proprietary
drivers; they flock to it. Worse, they favour systems that are grossly
out of balance by normal-usage standards: heavy on CPU and video
processing power, relatively deficient in I/O.

During the tech collapse, when the rest of the computer market took a
tumble, gamers dominated briefly because they were practically the only
people buying new hardware, and therefore manufacturers loved them.
Portable system boxes from Shuttle and Alienware popped up with
transparent cases with neon-lit highlights, and brightly coloured
motherboards. Gamer kids suddenly started apppearing on Linux mailing
list dispensing hardware advice, and, when you objected that you didn't
think it was a good idea leaping to brand-new video, SATA, and ethernet
chipsets that work on Linux only with proprietary binary-only drivers,
were told with a sneer that obviously you weren't serious about
performance.

And, it turns out that they're basically all about _MS-Windows_ gaming,
anyway, and Linux is an afterthought.

I read Anandtech and Tom's Hardware from time to time; the opinions are
interesting but _utterly_ Windows-centric -- as are 100% of their test
results and benchmarks.

> While on the subject, using AMD-based systems is a pretty safe bet
> these days.

Use only 2.6 kernels on Opterons. 2.4 has problem, there (and on EM64T,
too).


_______________________________________________
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http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug



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Yahoo! Shopping
Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping --0-581174777-1136269967=:95985-- From alamozzz@yahoo.com Mon Jan 02 22:36:04 2006 Received: from web31408.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.198.120]:32282) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EtflF-0005Zz-R2 for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2006 22:36:03 -0800 Received: (qmail 64729 invoked by uid 60001); 3 Jan 2006 06:35:02 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=sMRgGPHcrp78YlWe4wW1sQ7i8dSFTnYYTEZ4CF41CL6hxgVSuaJ7MCTzU1ZstRzsLYZaFL8tf8jhcX66xHbYBYODh20BEHURqUdilwbwslLhgLe3U5OgWN5odC2fDF1O2+7YjK+WOitx/ziC4jLfQSASPzS5+lLw4etNB1G7WRU= ; Message-ID: <20060103063502.64726.qmail@web31408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.224.6.226] by web31408.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 02 Jan 2006 22:35:02 PST Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 22:35:02 -0800 (PST) From: Adrien Lamothe To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com In-Reply-To: <46CCD910-7BD2-11DA-B9D5-000A95EA5592@well.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of alamozzz@yahoo.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 68.142.198.120 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: alamozzz@yahoo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=3.1.0 Subject: Re: [sf-lug] email statistics for sf-lug mailing list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-129295583-1136270102=:61765" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 06:36:04 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 14415 Lines: 196 --0-129295583-1136270102=:61765 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hmm..., 3.5 emails a day is quite a bit less than 55 per day... jim stockford wrote: i hate to lose you, Jeffe. What about batch mode-- you receive just one email per day with whatever the day's activity, which many days is none (so no batch mail that day, either). You can make the change yourself; let me know and I'll change however you want. As a note, sf-lug email averages about 3.5 emails per day since we started May 24 2004. The following lists all days that had email of 10 or more for the day. 2006 Jan 2: 9 Jan 1: 13 # this mail will make it 10 for Jan 2: 2005 oct 6: 10 Aug 8: 17 Aug 2: 11 Jul 8: 11 2004 Oct 12: 16 Oct 12: 11 Oct 8: 12 Oct 6 15 Sep 29: 12 Sep 15: 14 Sep 13: 11 Sep 2 13 Aug 16: 16 Aug 12: 15 Aug 3: 11 Aug 2: 10 Jul 27: 26 Jul 19: 21 Jul 16: 12 Jul 8: 26 Jul 6: 19 Jul 5: 22 Jun 24: 18 Jun 23: 16 And the winner is... A tie between July 6, 2004 and July 27, 2004, each shuddering under the burden of 26 emails. On Jan 2, 2006, at 11:22 AM, Jeffe wrote: > Please remove me from this list. It's really irritating to receive 55 > e-mails everyday from you guys. You should really look into an online > forum. > > > > -- Rick Moen wrote: > Return-Path: > Received: from mx15.lax.untd.com (mx15.lax.untd.com [10.130.24.75]) > by maildeliver24.nyc.untd.com with SMTP id AABB5U9HXA3DQAYS > for (sender ); > Mon, 2 Jan 2006 11:20:21 -0800 (PST) > Received: from linuxmafia.com (linuxmafia.com [198.144.195.186]) > by mx15.lax.untd.com with SMTP id AABB5U9HXAFQ6M9S > for (sender ); > Mon, 2 Jan 2006 11:20:21 -0800 (PST) > Received: from localhost.rawbw.com ([127.0.0.1]:48365 > helo=linuxmafia.com) > by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) > id 1EtVDI-0001ca-Rj ; Mon, 02 Jan 2006 11:19:26 -0800 > Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.54 #1 > (EximConfig > 2.0)) id 1EtVD7-0001cV-RQ by authid > for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2006 11:19:13 -0800 > Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 11:19:13 -0800 > To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com > Message-ID: <20060102191913.GP2513@linuxmafia.com> > References: <20060102165034.69114.qmail@web31402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Disposition: inline > In-Reply-To: <20060102165034.69114.qmail@web31402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > X-Mas: Bah humbug. > User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i > From: Rick Moen > X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com > X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 > Precedence: list > List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list > > List-Unsubscribe: , > > List-Archive: > List-Post: > List-Help: > List-Subscribe: , > > Sender: sf-lug-bounces@linuxmafia.com > Errors-To: sf-lug-bounces@linuxmafia.com > X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com > (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) > X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 > X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: sf-lug-bounces@linuxmafia.com > X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on > linuxmafia.com > X-Spam-Level: > X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 > autolearn=unavailable version=3.1.0 > Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) > X-ContentStamp: 11:5:3682511178 > X-MAIL-INFO: > 5bd90d0dd9a1f50da1f5843df54d951035304519747138897d1545905d0479e5711579c > 1d985b970b9014d3da1d5b981 > X-UNTD-Peer-Info: > 198.144.195.186|linuxmafia.com|linuxmafia.com|sf-lug- > bounces@linuxmafia.com > X-UNTD-UBE:-1 > Quoting Adrien Lamothe (alamozzz@yahoo.com): > >> My rule for choosing new, "bleeding edge" hardware, which I have >> employed with great success, is called "Use what the gamers use." >> Computer gamers are the most insatiable, curious, and often >> technically knowledgable consumers of computer hardware. > > They also not only have no objection to dependency on proprietary > drivers; they flock to it. Worse, they favour systems that are grossly > out of balance by normal-usage standards: heavy on CPU and video > processing power, relatively deficient in I/O. > > During the tech collapse, when the rest of the computer market took a > tumble, gamers dominated briefly because they were practically the only > people buying new hardware, and therefore manufacturers loved them. > Portable system boxes from Shuttle and Alienware popped up with > transparent cases with neon-lit highlights, and brightly coloured > motherboards. Gamer kids suddenly started apppearing on Linux mailing > list dispensing hardware advice, and, when you objected that you didn't > think it was a good idea leaping to brand-new video, SATA, and ethernet > chipsets that work on Linux only with proprietary binary-only drivers, > were told with a sneer that obviously you weren't serious about > performance. > > And, it turns out that they're basically all about _MS-Windows_ gaming, > anyway, and Linux is an afterthought. > > I read Anandtech and Tom's Hardware from time to time; the opinions are > interesting but _utterly_ Windows-centric -- as are 100% of their test > results and benchmarks. > >> While on the subject, using AMD-based systems is a pretty safe bet >> these days. > > Use only 2.6 kernels on Opterons. 2.4 has problem, there (and on > EM64T, > too). > > > _______________________________________________ > sf-lug mailing list > sf-lug@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > Try Juno Platinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month! > Unlimited Internet Access with 250MB of Email Storage. > Visit http://www.juno.com/value to sign up today! > > > _______________________________________________ > sf-lug mailing list > sf-lug@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug > _______________________________________________ sf-lug mailing list sf-lug@linuxmafia.com http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug --------------------------------- Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year. --0-129295583-1136270102=:61765 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hmm..., 3.5 emails a day is quite a bit less than 55 per day...



jim stockford <jim@well.com> wrote:

i hate to lose you, Jeffe. What about batch mode--
you receive just one email per day with whatever
the day's activity, which many days is none (so no
batch mail that day, either). You can make the change
yourself; let me know and I'll change however you want.

As a note, sf-lug email averages about 3.5 emails
per day since we started May 24 2004.

The following lists all days that had email of 10
or more for the day.

2006
Jan 2: 9 Jan 1: 13 # this mail will make it 10 for Jan 2:

2005
oct 6: 10 Aug 8: 17 Aug 2: 11 Jul 8: 11

2004
Oct 12: 16 Oct 12: 11 Oct 8: 12 Oct 6 15
Sep 29: 12 Sep 15: 14 Sep 13: 11 Sep 2 13
Aug 16: 16 Aug 12: 15 Aug 3: 11 Aug 2: 10
Jul 27: 26 Jul 19: 21 Jul 16: 12 Jul 8: 26
Jul 6: 19 Jul 5: 22 Jun 24: 18 Jun 23: 16

And the winner is...
A tie between July 6, 2004 and July 27, 2004,
each shuddering under the burden of 26 emails.



On Jan 2, 2006, at 11:22 AM, Jeffe wrote:

> Please remove me from this list. It's really irritating to receive 55
> e-mails everyday from you guys. You should really look into an online
> forum.
>
>
>
> -- Rick Moen wrote:
> Return-Path:
> Received: from mx15.lax.untd.com (mx15.lax.untd.com [10.130.24.75])
> by maildeliver24.nyc.untd.com with SMTP id AABB5U9HXA3DQAYS
> for (sender );
> Mon, 2 Jan 2006 11:20:21 -0800 (PST)
> Received: from linuxmafia.com (linuxmafia.com [198.144.195.186])
> by mx15.lax.untd.com with SMTP id AABB5U9HXAFQ6M9S
> for (sender );
> Mon, 2 Jan 2006 11:20:21 -0800 (PST)
> Received: from localhost.rawbw.com ([127.0.0.1]:48365
> helo=linuxmafia.com)
> by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0))
> id 1EtVDI-0001ca-Rj ; Mon, 02 Jan 2006 11:19:26 -0800
> Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.54 #1
> (EximConfig
> 2.0)) id 1EtVD7-0001cV-RQ by authid
> for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2006 11:19:13 -0800
> Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 11:19:13 -0800
> To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com
> Message-ID: <20060102191913.GP2513@linuxmafia.com>
> References: <20060102165034.69114.qmail@web31402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Disposition: inline
> In-Reply-To: <20060102165034.69114.qmail@web31402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> X-Mas: Bah humbug.
> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i
> From: Rick Moen
> X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com
> X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5
> Precedence: list
> List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list
>
> List-Unsubscribe: ,
>
> List-Archive:
> List-Post:
> List-Help:
> List-Subscribe: ,
>
> Sender: sf-lug-bounces@linuxmafia.com
> Errors-To: sf-lug-bounces@linuxmafia.com
> X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com
> (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig)
> X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1
> X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: sf-lug-bounces@linuxmafia.com
> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on
> linuxmafia.com
> X-Spam-Level:
> X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00
> autolearn=unavailable version=3.1.0
> Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup.
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100)
> X-ContentStamp: 11:5:3682511178
> X-MAIL-INFO:
> 5bd90d0dd9a1f50da1f5843df54d951035304519747138897d1545905d0479e5711579c
> 1d985b970b9014d3da1d5b981
> X-UNTD-Peer-Info:
> 198.144.195.186|linuxmafia.com|linuxmafia.com|sf-lug-
> bounces@linuxmafia.com
> X-UNTD-UBE:-1
> Quoting Adrien Lamothe (alamozzz@yahoo.com):
>
>> My rule for choosing new, "bleeding edge" hardware, which I have
>> employed with great success, is called "Use what the gamers use."
>> Computer gamers are the most insatiable, curious, and often
>> technically knowledgable consumers of computer hardware.
>
> They also not only have no objection to dependency on proprietary
> drivers; they flock to it. Worse, they favour systems that are grossly
> out of balance by normal-usage standards: heavy on CPU and video
> processing power, relatively deficient in I/O.
>
> During the tech collapse, when the rest of the computer market took a
> tumble, gamers dominated briefly because they were practically the only
> people buying new hardware, and therefore manufacturers loved them.
> Portable system boxes from Shuttle and Alienware popped up with
> transparent cases with neon-lit highlights, and brightly coloured
> motherboards. Gamer kids suddenly started apppearing on Linux mailing
> list dispensing hardware advice, and, when you objected that you didn't
> think it was a good idea leaping to brand-new video, SATA, and ethernet
> chipsets that work on Linux only with proprietary binary-only drivers,
> were told with a sneer that obviously you weren't serious about
> performance.
>
> And, it turns out that they're basically all about _MS-Windows_ gaming,
> anyway, and Linux is an afterthought.
>
> I read Anandtech and Tom's Hardware from time to time; the opinions are
> interesting but _utterly_ Windows-centric -- as are 100% of their test
> results and benchmarks.
>
>> While on the subject, using AMD-based systems is a pretty safe bet
>> these days.
>
> Use only 2.6 kernels on Opterons. 2.4 has problem, there (and on
> EM64T,
> too).
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug@linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
> Try Juno Platinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month!
> Unlimited Internet Access with 250MB of Email Storage.
> Visit http://www.juno.com/value to sign up today!
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug@linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>


_______________________________________________
sf-lug mailing list
sf-lug@linuxmafia.com
http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug

Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year. --0-129295583-1136270102=:61765-- From rick@linuxmafia.com Mon Jan 02 23:05:23 2006 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EtgEU-0005qk-DD by authid for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2006 23:05:22 -0800 Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 23:05:21 -0800 To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. Message-ID: <20060103070521.GA2513@linuxmafia.com> References: <20060103063014.63513.qmail@web31408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060103063014.63513.qmail@web31408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Do-Not-Run: Yes X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 07:05:23 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 4477 Lines: 84 Quoting Adrien Lamothe (alamozzz@yahoo.com): > I've done some work for an internet cafe, helping to set up and > configure game servers running Linux to host the game Half-Life. We've > run SuSE, Slackware, Debian and Red Hat successfully on hardware that > would probably qualify as "grossly out of balance." So far the servers > have worked without a hitch. (I note that you mean under WINE or WineX, etc.: Half-Life is _not_ a Linux application. It's a DirectX Windows one.) When I said "grossly out of balance", I of course meant in the context of more typical Linux usage (office-type apps, Web browsing, etc.). A typical 3D gamer box has, for _any usage but gaming_, an overpriced CPU that goes almost unused, and an overpriced video card that goes almost unused. Running those more-typical applications in a native-Linux environment heightens that effect, in that Linux itself tends to be much less CPU-intensive than are Microsoft's Win32 OSes. It should go without saying that, when you build a box for Windows 3D gaming (whether on straight MS-Windows or in a Win32 emulation environment), then a machine such as you describe would _not_ be "grossly out of balance" -- because the highly atypical usage model works best with exactly that sort of box. However, if you handed me the price of one of those machines and told me, "Rick, see if you can get better performance for native-Linux general-variety desktop or server usage, using the same amount of money", I'll guarantee I'd be able to _smoke_ your box -- in that radically different usage scenario. Why? Because mine would have the money allocated differently among the subassemblies, taking _a lot_ away from where it doesn't matter quite that much (CPU, video) and sinking more into what relatively lags on the gamer box (I/O). > Well, I've probably been spoiled, because I've been using SuSE Linux, > since version 5.1. I've installed SuSE on many systems, some of them > purchased at thrift shops, others brand new that I've built for myself > and others, and name-brand systems purchased at places like CompUSA. > SuSE always worked, out of the box, without problem, on whatever > hardware I installed it on. So, when I've gone to AnandTech and Toms > Hardware for research, I've found their advice regarding hardware > issues (stability, which components play nice with each other, etc.) > useful, even from a Linux perspective. I note that SUSE Linux usually includes quite a lot of proprietary, binary-only hardware drivers -- more than do most distros. Mind you, that's fine: It can be handy to have, as you found out. However, the point is that _needing_ them is undesirable, when you can avoid it. A lot of people with such hardware (winmodems, most USB ADSL bridges, certain exotic video chips, some SATA, some sound chips, some ethernet) have found out the hard way that the proprietary drivers tend to become unusable as the kernel's interfaces change, or when you try to migrate the hardware to a new box (ia32 to AMD64, say). And others have found themselves with mysterious kernel-level bugs and kernel panics: When they try to report those to the Linux kernel mailing list, they're surprised to see the bug report rejected because their kernel was "tainted" by the proprietary driver. (The kernel coders had to finally put in code to detect proprietary drivers and automark any bug reports as suspect, because they were being driven crazy by Nvidia users reporting "kernel bugs" that originated in Nvidia drivers and couldn't be fixed for lack of source code access.) > I've recently evaluated several Debian-based distros, due to > uncertainty about events at Novell/SuSE and problems experienced with > SuSE 10.0. I've tried Kanotix 3-2005, Kubuntu 5.10, and Simply Mepis. > So far, I've had problems with all three of those distros, from not > installing to having the system lock-up. That might have been because, unlike SUSE 9.3, those Debian-based distros don't have as huge a collection of proprietary hardware drivers. Dunno: It's speculation. (Obviously, SUSE 10.0 has separate problems, for other reasons entirely.) By "SUSE 9.3", I refer to the boxed-set edition that was (lawfully) available on a per-seat licensed basis from retail vendors, which has much more proprietary code than the various redistributable editions -- for the simple reason that many of those proprietary codebases lack any grant of a right of redistribution to the public. From jim@well.com Tue Jan 03 08:09:17 2006 Received: from smtp.well.com ([206.80.4.7]:48384) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EtoiV-0000oH-Pa ; Tue, 03 Jan 2006 08:09:17 -0800 Received: from [192.168.1.101] (dsl081-061-186.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.61.186]) by smtp.well.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k03G8o1K014095; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 08:08:51 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20060103070521.GA2513@linuxmafia.com> References: <20060103063014.63513.qmail@web31408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20060103070521.GA2513@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Message-Id: <8B30F739-7C73-11DA-B56D-000A95EA5592@well.com> From: jim stockford Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 08:11:05 -0800 To: Rick Moen X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.87.1, clamav-milter version 0.87 on smtp.well.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of jim@well.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 206.80.4.7 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jim@well.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=4.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Cc: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 16:09:18 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 5141 Lines: 109 rick, you mention i/o considerations when you discuss balance. could you elucidate some? Balance seems to mean getting a right sufficiency of CPU, RAM, storage, console (display, keyboard, mouse), and seems to me other i/o-ish stuff. my interest is first the bus: PCI is best? then NIC? then what? gratefully, jim On Jan 2, 2006, at 11:05 PM, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Adrien Lamothe (alamozzz@yahoo.com): > >> I've done some work for an internet cafe, helping to set up and >> configure game servers running Linux to host the game Half-Life. We've >> run SuSE, Slackware, Debian and Red Hat successfully on hardware that >> would probably qualify as "grossly out of balance." So far the servers >> have worked without a hitch. > > (I note that you mean under WINE or WineX, etc.: Half-Life is _not_ a > Linux application. It's a DirectX Windows one.) > > When I said "grossly out of balance", I of course meant in the context > of more typical Linux usage (office-type apps, Web browsing, etc.). A > typical 3D gamer box has, for _any usage but gaming_, an overpriced CPU > that goes almost unused, and an overpriced video card that goes almost > unused. Running those more-typical applications in a native-Linux > environment heightens that effect, in that Linux itself tends to be > much > less CPU-intensive than are Microsoft's Win32 OSes. > > It should go without saying that, when you build a box for Windows 3D > gaming (whether on straight MS-Windows or in a Win32 emulation > environment), then a machine such as you describe would _not_ be > "grossly out of balance" -- because the highly atypical usage model > works best with exactly that sort of box. > > However, if you handed me the price of one of those machines and told > me, "Rick, see if you can get better performance for native-Linux > general-variety desktop or server usage, using the same amount of > money", I'll guarantee I'd be able to _smoke_ your box -- in that > radically different usage scenario. > > Why? Because mine would have the money allocated differently among the > subassemblies, taking _a lot_ away from where it doesn't matter quite > that much (CPU, video) and sinking more into what relatively lags on > the > gamer box (I/O). > > >> Well, I've probably been spoiled, because I've been using SuSE Linux, >> since version 5.1. I've installed SuSE on many systems, some of them >> purchased at thrift shops, others brand new that I've built for myself >> and others, and name-brand systems purchased at places like CompUSA. >> SuSE always worked, out of the box, without problem, on whatever >> hardware I installed it on. So, when I've gone to AnandTech and Toms >> Hardware for research, I've found their advice regarding hardware >> issues (stability, which components play nice with each other, etc.) >> useful, even from a Linux perspective. > > I note that SUSE Linux usually includes quite a lot of proprietary, > binary-only hardware drivers -- more than do most distros. Mind you, > that's fine: It can be handy to have, as you found out. However, the > point is that _needing_ them is undesirable, when you can avoid it. > > A lot of people with such hardware (winmodems, most USB ADSL bridges, > certain exotic video chips, some SATA, some sound chips, some ethernet) > have found out the hard way that the proprietary drivers tend to become > unusable as the kernel's interfaces change, or when you try to migrate > the hardware to a new box (ia32 to AMD64, say). And others have found > themselves with mysterious kernel-level bugs and kernel panics: When > they try to report those to the Linux kernel mailing list, they're > surprised to see the bug report rejected because their kernel was > "tainted" by the proprietary driver. (The kernel coders had to finally > put in code to detect proprietary drivers and automark any bug reports > as suspect, because they were being driven crazy by Nvidia users > reporting "kernel bugs" that originated in Nvidia drivers and couldn't > be fixed for lack of source code access.) > > >> I've recently evaluated several Debian-based distros, due to >> uncertainty about events at Novell/SuSE and problems experienced with >> SuSE 10.0. I've tried Kanotix 3-2005, Kubuntu 5.10, and Simply Mepis. >> So far, I've had problems with all three of those distros, from not >> installing to having the system lock-up. > > That might have been because, unlike SUSE 9.3, those Debian-based > distros don't have as huge a collection of proprietary hardware > drivers. > Dunno: It's speculation. (Obviously, SUSE 10.0 has separate problems, > for other reasons entirely.) > > By "SUSE 9.3", I refer to the boxed-set edition that was (lawfully) > available on a per-seat licensed basis from retail vendors, which has > much more proprietary code than the various redistributable editions -- > for the simple reason that many of those proprietary codebases lack any > grant of a right of redistribution to the public. > > _______________________________________________ > sf-lug mailing list > sf-lug@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug > From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Jan 03 08:55:08 2006 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EtpRD-0000yP-7H by authid for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2006 08:55:07 -0800 Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 08:55:06 -0800 From: Rick Moen To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. Message-ID: <20060103165506.GJ2501@linuxmafia.com> References: <20060103063014.63513.qmail@web31408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20060103070521.GA2513@linuxmafia.com> <8B30F739-7C73-11DA-B56D-000A95EA5592@well.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <8B30F739-7C73-11DA-B56D-000A95EA5592@well.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-SA-Do-Not-Run: Yes X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 16:55:08 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 3958 Lines: 81 Quoting jim stockford (jim@well.com): > rick, you mention i/o considerations when you > discuss balance. > could you elucidate some? Hi, sorry to say that I'm going to have to rush this reply -- a lot. (Am doing work stuff.) 'Hope it comes out coherent and relevant. I sort of threw into "I/O" just about everything else other than the aspects I mentioned: disk access, various actual I/O ports, memory access. But I meant primarily disk (mass storage subsystem) performance -- given that gamers _are_ smart enough to ensure adequate amounts of fast RAM on a fast memory bus. > my interest is first the bus: PCI is best? > then NIC? then what? Apologies, but I don't understand the question. In _any_ given situation, the component you want to take out and shoot is whatever is the one that's holding you back, that is the most significant bottleneck for whatever operations are going on at that moment. As a (hypothetical) system designer, your task is to allocate your spending dollars in the various categories so that they do the most good, in the sense that (theoretically) shifting a dollar from that aspect of the machine to any other would result in slower and less satisfactory performance. That's what a bottleneck _is_. Basically, bottlenecks exist only relative to usage models and situations. It makes no sense to say "You must always get a good X". Imagine that I had an Internet server running my domain on a 1.54Mbps T-1 line, again. (That would elminate, for purposes of our hypothetical, the current aDSL bottleneck, in the presence of which basically _all_ of uncle-enzo's pieces are so far in excess of need that it's a "who cares" situation.) In that case, _if_ I attempted to do that server-role duty (Apache httpd, MySQL, rsync daemon, vsftpd, OpenSSHd, ntpd, etc.) using Linux on a typical gamer box, it would be the (usually) anemic hard drive subsystem that held the system back, mostly. By contrast, the extremely expensive CPU(s) would go almost entirely to waste, and ditto (of course) the Nvidia GeForce4 video thingie, even if the machine didn't run headless as normal. The machine that actually _did_ fill that role (on the T-1) back around 1997 also simultaneously served as my main desktop box -- multiple xterms, AbiWord, Netscape Communicator, Gnumeric, Window Maker for the window manager. It was my now-antique K2/233 with 128MB of PC-100 CAS2 SDRAM and two very fast SCSI drives. And _that_ machine could saturate the T-1 while simultaneously being my desktop box in foreground. Sorry that I can't give you easy, bankable guidelines: In truth, all aspects of the hardware are important, but just not _equally_ important unless you either cut too deeply or splurge too much in that area. What is too much or too little is a matter of judgement and knowing what _types_ of stress (in what hardware areas) the intended machine usage will put on the box. Adrien's point is a really good one, that a machine that is intended to run Half-Life -- either in a pure MS-Windows environment or in an emulated Windows environment under Linux/X11 -- pretty much ought to have its strengths and weaknesses arranged the way a typical gamer box is: stupendous (and expensive) CPU and 3D-oriented video, and relatively sucky in I/O areas particularly mass storage performance. My point was intended to parallel that: that, even aside from open-source vs. proprietary driver issues, a box intended for _more typical_ tasks in a native-Linux environment (whether server or desktop) would do better at any given price point if it had less emphasis in typical-gamer areas, and more on good HD performance. (Snappy video is often a really good idea, but that does _not_ require fancy 3D stuff used basically only in 3D games and some sorts of exotic scientific "visualisation" software. E.g., an aging Matrox card with exceptional 2D aka regular video imaging might be just the thing.) From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Jan 03 09:45:04 2006 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EtqDX-0001KP-Fv by authid for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2006 09:45:03 -0800 Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 09:45:02 -0800 From: Rick Moen To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. Message-ID: <20060103174502.GA4933@linuxmafia.com> References: <20060103063014.63513.qmail@web31408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20060103070521.GA2513@linuxmafia.com> <8B30F739-7C73-11DA-B56D-000A95EA5592@well.com> <20060103165506.GJ2501@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060103165506.GJ2501@linuxmafia.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-SA-Do-Not-Run: Yes X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 17:45:04 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1620 Lines: 33 Hmm, I did warn that I was going to be rushed. > As a (hypothetical) system designer, your task is to allocate your > spending dollars in the various categories so that they do the most > good, in the sense that (theoretically) shifting a dollar from that > aspect of the machine to any other would result in slower and less > satisfactory performance. That's what a bottleneck _is_. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ More accurately, that's what the absence of a bottleneck is. > The machine that actually _did_ fill that role (on the T-1) back around > 1997 also simultaneously served as my main desktop box -- multiple > xterms, AbiWord, Netscape Communicator, Gnumeric, Window Maker for the > window manager. It was my now-antique K2/233 with 128MB of PC-100 [...] ^^^^^^ That's "K6/233", AMD's predecessor to the Athlon.[1] Pretty much the last x86 CPU to run super-cool -- though Intel's Pentium M "mobile" series is reported to be respectable. It's a measure of just how much CPU power (usually) doesn't matter in (at least conservative-type) typical Linux deployments that the 1997-era K6 box is _still_ pretty zippy, either functioning as pretty much any type or server or running lightweight X11 desktop environments such as Window Maker. Of course, if I tried to animation-rendering work, or KDE with all the chrome-effects enabled, it'd be toast. [1] In all aspects other than floating-point performance, it was the equal of the PPro and Pentium II CPUs of the same era -- and cost a great deal less, _and_ ran a lot cooler. From vpolitewebsiteguy@yahoo.com Tue Jan 03 09:53:25 2006 Received: from web53607.mail.yahoo.com ([206.190.37.40]:44896) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EtqLW-0001NA-T9 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2006 09:53:24 -0800 Received: (qmail 11020 invoked by uid 60001); 3 Jan 2006 17:53:10 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=gec7nUDIO1mhpbz5Z2piU7Jz/OyQHcZtu2rGN6PneItjRIhEX2N3wDafmKrVJutzi1k4nrX5DlIrngXCOpxs33JjQlgluM+7nqex5E1PUnpRQq+ZlPTJRB+mwrLu2Qrtf3aZ0vFb5UEdQk8+wjXwzp5gyxD1jTGmvhejtiC1yWI= ; Message-ID: <20060103175310.11018.qmail@web53607.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 09:53:10 -0800 (PST) From: vincent polite To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of vpolitewebsiteguy@yahoo.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 206.190.37.40 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: vpolitewebsiteguy@yahoo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.1 required=4.0 tests=BAYES_20,FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD, HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE,MISSING_SUBJECT autolearn=no version=3.1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1800074749-1136310790=:8970" X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [sf-lug] (no subject) X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: vincent polite List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 17:53:25 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 963 Lines: 20 --0-1800074749-1136310790=:8970 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, Here's a new website, from the people who brought you PHPfreaks.com. Any insights into the value of it? Guidance to understanding this world? http://www.ajaxfreaks.com/ Vincent Polite 415-386-5629 http://home.covad.net/~vpolite/ --0-1800074749-1136310790=:8970 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Hi,
Here's a new website, from the people who brought you PHPfreaks.com. Any insights into the value of it? Guidance to understanding this world?
 
Vincent Polite 415-386-5629 http://home.covad.net/~vpolite/
--0-1800074749-1136310790=:8970-- From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Jan 03 10:42:08 2006 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1Etr6l-0001iz-J0 by authid for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2006 10:42:07 -0800 Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 10:42:06 -0800 To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [sf-lug] (no subject) Message-ID: <20060103184206.GJ2513@linuxmafia.com> References: <20060103175310.11018.qmail@web53607.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060103175310.11018.qmail@web53607.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Do-Not-Run: Yes X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 18:42:08 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1818 Lines: 50 Quoting vincent polite (vpolitewebsiteguy@yahoo.com): > Here's a new website, from the people who brought you PHPfreaks.com. > Any insights into the value of it? Guidance to understanding this > world? > > http://www.ajaxfreaks.com/ Well, if you drive to Sebastopol (near Santa Rosa) in a week, you can hear a lecture about the hottest server-end AJAX implementation, Ruby on Rails. (See below.) AJAX can be used to create some great things -- as well as some highly useful but also very proprietary things (like Google Maps). Of possible related interest: http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Essays/winolj.html Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 08:01:54 -0800 From: Augie Schwer Organization: The North Bay Linux Users' Group To: announce@nblug.org Subject: [NBLUG/Announce] General Meeting (2006/01/10) : Ruby on Rails Hello NBLUG'ers, This month our own Rob Orsini will be talking about the much hyped and very popular Ruby on Rails development framework. Description: "Ruby on Rails is an open-source Web framework that's optimized for programmer happiness and sustainable productivity. It lets you write beautiful code by favoring convention over configuration. Rob will demonstrate the creation of a simple database driven Web application using the Rails framework. He'll also talk about some of the best practices that Rails brings to the Web programming table and how it, and projects like it, are making programming more fun." Start: 2006/01/10 - 7:30pm End: 2006/01/10 - 9:00pm Location: O'Reilly, Sebastopol, CA http://nblug.org/genloc We are always looking for speakers, so if you or anyone you know would like to give a presentation to a group of friendly nerds, please send an e-mail to speakers@nblug.org . Thank you, and I look forward to seeing you all there at the next meeting. From david@sterryit.com Tue Jan 03 13:42:11 2006 Received: from mail25.atl.registeredsite.com ([216.247.37.45]:7126 ident=[U2FsdGVkX1+f52xWz52FncTW0lDdypq8T1HgmcOebVA=]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1Ettul-0002ov-7D for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2006 13:42:10 -0800 Received: from imta08a2.registeredsite.com (imta08a2.registeredsite.com [64.225.255.17]) by mail25.atl.registeredsite.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k03LfkoT019993 for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 16:41:46 -0500 Received: from Diablo ([71.139.58.49]) by imta08a2.registeredsite.com with ESMTP id <20060103214146.UIQA10036.imta08a2.registeredsite.com@Diablo> for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2006 16:41:46 -0500 From: "David Sterry" To: Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 13:41:43 -0800 Message-ID: <009601c610ae$7d678cd0$6301a8c0@Diablo> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2616 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <20060103184206.GJ2513@linuxmafia.com> Importance: Normal X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at imta08a2.registeredsite.com from [71.139.58.49] using ID david@sterryit.com at Tue, 3 Jan 2006 16:41:46 -0500 Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of david@sterryit.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.247.37.45 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: david@sterryit.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=4.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.0 Subject: RE: [sf-lug] (no subject) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: david@sterryit.com List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 21:42:11 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2708 Lines: 83 You can take a look at a simple AJAX app I created working from another guy's code. It's called Chatr and is a chat server written in php that works with an AJAX(Javascript with background HTTP requests) client. You can test it out at http://www.sterryit.com/chat or get more info at http://www.sterryit.com/chatr It's in very early stages so any feedback is appreciated. David Sterry, MCSE Tel 650-773-5942 Fax 650-523-8634 David@SterryIT.com http://www.SterryIT.com 805 Veterans Blvd. Suite 200 Redwood City, CA 94063 -----Original Message----- From: sf-lug-bounces@linuxmafia.com [mailto:sf-lug-bounces@linuxmafia.com] On Behalf Of Rick Moen Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 10:42 AM To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [sf-lug] (no subject) Quoting vincent polite (vpolitewebsiteguy@yahoo.com): > Here's a new website, from the people who brought you PHPfreaks.com. > Any insights into the value of it? Guidance to understanding this > world? > > http://www.ajaxfreaks.com/ Well, if you drive to Sebastopol (near Santa Rosa) in a week, you can hear a lecture about the hottest server-end AJAX implementation, Ruby on Rails. (See below.) AJAX can be used to create some great things -- as well as some highly useful but also very proprietary things (like Google Maps). Of possible related interest: http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Essays/winolj.html Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 08:01:54 -0800 From: Augie Schwer Organization: The North Bay Linux Users' Group To: announce@nblug.org Subject: [NBLUG/Announce] General Meeting (2006/01/10) : Ruby on Rails Hello NBLUG'ers, This month our own Rob Orsini will be talking about the much hyped and very popular Ruby on Rails development framework. Description: "Ruby on Rails is an open-source Web framework that's optimized for programmer happiness and sustainable productivity. It lets you write beautiful code by favoring convention over configuration. Rob will demonstrate the creation of a simple database driven Web application using the Rails framework. He'll also talk about some of the best practices that Rails brings to the Web programming table and how it, and projects like it, are making programming more fun." Start: 2006/01/10 - 7:30pm End: 2006/01/10 - 9:00pm Location: O'Reilly, Sebastopol, CA http://nblug.org/genloc We are always looking for speakers, so if you or anyone you know would like to give a presentation to a group of friendly nerds, please send an e-mail to speakers@nblug.org . Thank you, and I look forward to seeing you all there at the next meeting. _______________________________________________ sf-lug mailing list sf-lug@linuxmafia.com http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug From alamozzz@yahoo.com Tue Jan 03 19:28:20 2006 Received: from web31408.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.198.120]:29821) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EtzJf-00083H-4R for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2006 19:28:19 -0800 Received: (qmail 17930 invoked by uid 60001); 4 Jan 2006 03:27:51 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=IKp0BAm3DyAmtGQxORl6sg4El1aRoEHk/7Ss23dQWq1VpJ4W+WnRPmQ5IMO4CYFsLcw35SSaIlfDrLZBkQW+qZx3N7IHRUq6ZLfhEgIPKvvpWyeM0RWunxsya1p6sAu3bvpy3kmKSY4mmqXKtM0BxFAvCzdpf4MZuFbKhBvC/RM= ; Message-ID: <20060104032751.17928.qmail@web31408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.111.59.163] by web31408.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 03 Jan 2006 19:27:51 PST Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 19:27:51 -0800 (PST) From: Adrien Lamothe To: SF Linux Users Group MIME-Version: 1.0 Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of alamozzz@yahoo.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 68.142.198.120 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: alamozzz@yahoo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_10_20, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=3.1.0 Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-2131144449-1136345271=:17627" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 03:28:20 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 4991 Lines: 56 --0-2131144449-1136345271=:17627 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >(I note that you mean under WINE or WineX, etc.: Half-Life is _not_ a Linux application. It's a DirectX Windows one.) I said "... game servers running Linux to host the game Half-Life." This sentence is probably unclear. It means the hardware is used to host the Half-Life game servers, not the clients. Half-Life servers are written for both Unix/Linux and Windows. The site uses the Linux versions. >Running those more-typical applications in a native-Linux >environment heightens that effect, in that Linux itself tends to be >much less CPU-intensive than are Microsoft's Win32 OSes. That depends. KDE has gotten fairly heavy in recent years. GNOME, with a CORBA underpinning, is probably equally heavy. >However, if you handed me the price of one of those machines and told >me, "Rick, see if you can get better performance for native-Linux >general-variety desktop or server usage, using the same amount of >money", I'll guarantee I'd be able to _smoke_ your box -- in that >radically different usage scenario. Well, we were actually given a server by a corporate sponsor, as part of a special event, so price wasn't an issue. The box is an Athlon 64 with Serial ATA RAID. It is currently running Fedora Core. >have found out the hard way that the proprietary drivers tend to become >unusable as the kernel's interfaces change, or when you try to migrate >the hardware to a new box (ia32 to AMD64, say). My SuSE distros have utilized standard stuff, unless specifically configured otherwise. SuSE has also done an excellent job of supporting AMD, both 32 and 64.) >By "SUSE 9.3", I refer to the boxed-set edition that was (lawfully) >available on a per-seat licensed basis from retail vendors, which has >much more proprietary code than the various redistributable editions -- >for the simple reason that many of those proprietary codebases lack any >grant of a right of redistribution to the public. If you read the SuSE 9.3 license, you will find that copying it and giving away those copies to others is allowed, as long as the copies are not given away for profit. Cheers, Adrien Lamothe --------------------------------- Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less --0-2131144449-1136345271=:17627 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>(I note that you mean under WINE or WineX, etc.:  Half-Life is _not_ a
Linux application.  It's a DirectX Windows one.)  

I said "... game servers running Linux to host the game Half-Life." This sentence is probably unclear. It means the hardware is used to host the Half-Life game servers, not the clients. Half-Life servers are written for both Unix/Linux and Windows. The site uses the Linux versions.

>Running those more-typical applications in a native-Linux
>environment heightens that effect, in that Linux itself tends to be
>much less CPU-intensive than are Microsoft's Win32 OSes.

That depends. KDE has gotten fairly heavy in recent years. GNOME, with a CORBA underpinning, is probably equally heavy.

>However, if you handed me the price of one of those machines and told
>me, "Rick, see if you can get better performance for native-Linux
>general-variety desktop or server usage, using the same amount of
>money", I'll guarantee I'd be able to _smoke_ your box -- in that
>radically different usage scenario.

Well, we were actually given a server by a corporate sponsor, as part of a special event, so price wasn't an issue. The box is an Athlon 64 with Serial ATA RAID. It is currently running Fedora Core.

>have found out the hard way that the proprietary drivers tend to become
>unusable as the kernel's interfaces change, or when you try to migrate
>the hardware to a new box (ia32 to AMD64, say).

My SuSE distros have utilized standard stuff, unless specifically configured otherwise. SuSE has also done an excellent job of supporting AMD, both 32 and 64.)

>By "SUSE 9.3", I refer to the boxed-set edition that was (lawfully)
>available on a per-seat licensed basis from retail vendors, which has
>much more proprietary code than the various redistributable editions --
>for the simple reason that many of those proprietary codebases lack any
>grant of a right of redistribution to the public.

If you read the SuSE 9.3 license, you will find that copying it and giving away those copies to others is allowed, as long as the copies are not given away for profit.

Cheers,

Adrien Lamothe

Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less --0-2131144449-1136345271=:17627-- From alamozzz@yahoo.com Tue Jan 03 19:52:26 2006 Received: from web31413.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.198.125]:32428) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1Etzh0-00089z-S4 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2006 19:52:25 -0800 Received: (qmail 63965 invoked by uid 60001); 4 Jan 2006 03:51:59 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=K6QHlZy5JtacrENO4HAxC+t8sJUxZ/hBHMhpnYX9y4CcNOV3i4kIaiPj6rJ2E22H1ybKoEekg3eaEMnxGgcc/0qJSIzBw5DAMNSWv6/ncsiz2CwJ/mRfRHO/IRyOyETu4em1hP1/dMaW3QXby/XQHRuCo+AKngpBcf2bcwNxCY4= ; Message-ID: <20060104035159.63963.qmail@web31413.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.111.59.163] by web31413.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 03 Jan 2006 19:51:59 PST Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 19:51:59 -0800 (PST) From: Adrien Lamothe To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of alamozzz@yahoo.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 68.142.198.125 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: alamozzz@yahoo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_10_20, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=3.1.0 Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-2102008119-1136346719=:63247" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 03:52:27 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 4508 Lines: 64 --0-2102008119-1136346719=:63247 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >I sort of threw into "I/O" just about everything else other than the >aspects I mentioned: disk access, various actual I/O ports, memory >access. But I meant primarily disk (mass storage subsystem) >performance -- given that gamers _are_ smart enough to ensure adequate amounts of >fast RAM on a fast memory bus. The computer industry has been going the way of the automotive industry - do things "good enough", but "cheap". Hardly anyone uses SCSI anymore, many people think SATA is just as fast, because of certain specs the vendors flaunt to encourage such mis-perception. However, what they fail to mention is that SCSI devices have a SCSI controller, and that a SCSI controller is a separate slave microprocessor that handles the bulk of data I/O. When the CPU/operating system wants data from a SCSI device, the SCSI controller is given some basic instructions: 1. where to find the data I want. 2. a location to put that data. The SCSI controller goes about doing its work and transfers the data directly to memory, using a DMA channel to do so. When the data transfer is complete, the SCSI controller signals the CPU that "hey, I'm done, the data you wanted is now where you wanted it." What does this mean to system performance? It means the CPU is free for other activity during a large portion of the data transfer. Under IDE, the CPU is occupied for the entire period of data transfer. While this is a slightly simplified description, it does describe the architecture and salient differences. For most people's computer usage, this performance gain is not enough to justify spending more for SCSI, so people settle for "good enough." By the way, SCSI is still expensive. So, how much are you willing to pay for a "smoking" system? Depends on your requirements and the economic costs vs. benefits. - Adrien --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. --0-2102008119-1136346719=:63247 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 
>I sort of threw into "I/O" just about everything else other than the
>aspects I mentioned:  disk access, various actual I/O ports, memory
>access.  But I meant primarily disk (mass storage subsystem) 
>performance -- given that gamers _are_ smart enough to ensure adequate amounts of
>fast RAM on a fast memory bus.

The computer industry has been going the way of the 
automotive industry - do things "good enough", but "cheap".
Hardly anyone uses SCSI anymore, many people think SATA is
just as fast, because of certain specs the vendors flaunt
to encourage such mis-perception. However, what they fail
to mention is that SCSI devices have a SCSI controller, and
that a SCSI controller is a separate slave microprocessor
that handles the bulk of data I/O. When the CPU/operating
system wants data from a SCSI device, the SCSI controller
is given some basic instructions:  1. where to find the data I
 want. 
2. a location to put that data.
The SCSI controller goes about doing its work and transfers
the data directly to memory, using a DMA channel to do so.
When the data transfer is complete, the SCSI controller
signals the CPU that "hey, I'm done, the data you wanted
is now where you wanted it." What does this mean to system
performance? It means the CPU is free for other activity
during a large portion of the data transfer. Under IDE,
the CPU is occupied for the entire period of data transfer.
While this is a slightly simplified description, it does
describe the architecture and salient differences.
For most people's computer usage, this performance gain
is not enough to justify spending more for SCSI, so people
settle for "good enough."

By the way, SCSI is still expensive. So, how much are you
willing to pay for a "smoking" system? Depends on your
requirements and the economic costs vs. benefits.

-
 Adrien




Yahoo! Photos
Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. --0-2102008119-1136346719=:63247-- From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Jan 03 20:06:34 2006 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1Etzuz-0008O4-FV by authid for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2006 20:06:33 -0800 Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 20:06:32 -0800 To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. Message-ID: <20060104040632.GV2513@linuxmafia.com> References: <20060104032751.17928.qmail@web31408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060104032751.17928.qmail@web31408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Do-Not-Run: Yes X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 04:06:34 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 6254 Lines: 147 Quoting Adrien Lamothe (alamozzz@yahoo.com): > I said "... game servers running Linux to host the game Half-Life." > This sentence is probably unclear. It means the hardware is used to > host the Half-Life game servers, not the clients. Half-Life servers > are written for both Unix/Linux and Windows. The site uses the Linux > versions. Ah. I had no idea that Half-Life uses a client-server model, not being, as you probably figured out, much of a gamer. [low CPU draw, in Linux:] > That depends. KDE has gotten fairly heavy in recent years. GNOME, with > a CORBA underpinning, is probably equally heavy. Both environments tend towards the "heavy" in the sense of RAM gulping, but not necessarily CPU usage -- especially if you cool it with the optional visual effects glitter. (This is easily adjustable in KDE if not GNOME.) It doesn't stand to reason that merely running a CORBA broker would create a heavy CPU draw, y'know: It's just an object broker. That would hit up I/O (meaning mostly disk) and RAM, but not so much CPU. > >have found out the hard way that the proprietary drivers tend to become > >unusable as the kernel's interfaces change, or when you try to migrate > >the hardware to a new box (ia32 to AMD64, say). > > My SuSE distros have utilized standard stuff, unless specifically > configured otherwise. SuSE has also done an excellent job of > supporting AMD, both 32 and 64.) I am not sure if you got my point on the fragility and lack of portability of proprietary drivers, or not. Your remarks pretty much ignore what I said. I'm delighted that your hardware works well, but that really is unresponsive to what I said. > If you read the SuSE 9.3 license, you will find that copying it and > giving away those copies to others is allowed, as long as the copies > are not given away for profit. This is a frequently repeated misconception -- which I've been obliged to disprove in several forums before, so I happen to have the material handy: First of all, that is not what the licence says, if you heed its _full_ language (cited below). Second, even if it did say that, Novell/SUSE Linux AG would not have the copyright title enabling it to speak for (and nullify the non-redistributable licensing of) Adobe, Real Networks, Opera Software ASA, and Matrica AG. Disk 1 includes a number of licensing-relevant files in its root directory. Here are the English-language ones (as they're also duplicated with German-language ones). COPYING COPYRIGHT LICENSE.TXT Predictably, COPYING is the text of GPLv2. COPYRIGHT is, in part, Novell's brief GPL-compliance document, pointing out that a number of packages' source code is available, and stating where to get it. It also includes the following warning: Not all programs on the CDs are free software. Some of them are shareware, restricted to noncommercial use, or may have other restrictive conditions. The package information mentions the respective license and authors. We cannot, however, ensure the correctness of this information. In cases of doubt, refer to the original copyright information of the respective programs. LICENSE.TXT asserts formation of a contract betwen any recipient and Novell, Inc., concerning "Software", which is defined as "the software product identified in the title of this Agreement, media (if any), and accompanying documentation". The "title" is "SUSE LINUX PROFESSIONAL 9.3". This text follows: You may make and use unlimited copies of the Software for Your distribution and use within Your Organization. You may make and distribute unlimited copies of the Software outside Your organization provided that: 1) You receive no consideration; and, 2) you do not bundle or combine the Software with another offering (e.g., software, hardware, or service). However, the next paragraph severely limits that grant: The Software is a modular operating system. Most of the components are open source packages, developed independently, and accompanied by separate license terms. Your license rights with respect to individual components accompanied by separate license terms are defined by those terms; nothing in this Agreement (including, for example, the "Other License Terms and Restrictions," below) shall restrict, limit, or otherwise affect any rights or obligations You may have, or conditions to which You may be subject, under such license terms. [...] The Software may be bundled with other software programs ("Bundled Programs"). Your license rights with respect to Bundled Programs accompanied by separate license terms are defined by those terms; nothing in this Agreement shall restrict, limit, or otherwise affect any rights or obligations You may have, or conditions to which You may be subject, under such license terms. [...] Non-Novell Products. The Software may include or be bundled with hardware or other software programs licensed or sold by a licensor other than Novell. Interestingly, even the generous-sounding Novell rights grant cited above is non-transferrable! Transfer. This Agreement may not be transferred or assigned without the prior written approval of Novell. So, you're allowed to "make and distribute unlimited copies of the Software outside Your organization", but then those recipients don't enjoy the same rights? Weird. Interestingly, Novell restricts benchmarking! Benchmark Testing. This benchmark testing restriction applies to You if You are a software vendor or if You are performing testing on the Software at the direction of or on behalf of a software vendor. You may not, without Novell's prior written consent not to be unreasonably withheld, publish or disclose to any third party the results of any benchmark test of the Software. Anyhow, I think that more than suffices to show that the claim is incorrect. That is why I refer to 9.3 Professional as a "shrik-wrapped retail edition", one of several they've had, off and on. I try to keep track of the editions and their legal status, here: http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Licensing_and_Law/suse-product-strategy.html From alamozzz@yahoo.com Tue Jan 03 20:27:58 2006 Received: from web31402.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.198.114]:32819) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1Eu0Do-0008SF-L8 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2006 20:27:57 -0800 Received: (qmail 29756 invoked by uid 60001); 4 Jan 2006 04:25:42 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=KsgssG1S4rcGgsfH/S7fYEIyqy5GXBZtNOqsWXvj2eiuKn+fwK16qggJ3KOuJW9GFT6P7g+yZsHWaA6Ut6EYKoQsIP9ph+w4kclUgLYHL1QQUxS5GXzk/TsptC3UPP0UUOr1aVfgP9pgjwLgCIV3QpOsMdjxjfGFSO+lpzFlE1I= ; Message-ID: <20060104042542.29754.qmail@web31402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.111.59.163] by web31402.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 03 Jan 2006 20:25:42 PST Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 20:25:42 -0800 (PST) From: Adrien Lamothe To: Rick Moen , sf-lug@linuxmafia.com In-Reply-To: <20060104040632.GV2513@linuxmafia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of alamozzz@yahoo.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 68.142.198.114 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: alamozzz@yahoo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.3 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_10_20, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=3.1.0 Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1548886942-1136348742=:29629" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 04:27:59 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 15620 Lines: 188 --0-1548886942-1136348742=:29629 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit What program, bundled with SuSE 9.3, disallows non-for-profit copying and dissemination? Not allowing customers to benchmark a software product is illegal and unenforceable. Novell profit declined 90% last quarter. We'll see what happens next quarter. Apparently most, if not all, of the SuSE develoers are gone from Novell. There is no way to know what is really happening at Novell, but the SuSE developers essentially WERE SuSE Linux. If Novell doesn't replace those developers, then the SuSE acquisition was a waste. But you have to be happy for the SuSE people, who toiled hard for many years, because they most likely received a very handsome payday when acquired by Novell. - Adrien Rick Moen wrote: Quoting Adrien Lamothe (alamozzz@yahoo.com): > I said "... game servers running Linux to host the game Half-Life." > This sentence is probably unclear. It means the hardware is used to > host the Half-Life game servers, not the clients. Half-Life servers > are written for both Unix/Linux and Windows. The site uses the Linux > versions. Ah. I had no idea that Half-Life uses a client-server model, not being, as you probably figured out, much of a gamer. [low CPU draw, in Linux:] > That depends. KDE has gotten fairly heavy in recent years. GNOME, with > a CORBA underpinning, is probably equally heavy. Both environments tend towards the "heavy" in the sense of RAM gulping, but not necessarily CPU usage -- especially if you cool it with the optional visual effects glitter. (This is easily adjustable in KDE if not GNOME.) It doesn't stand to reason that merely running a CORBA broker would create a heavy CPU draw, y'know: It's just an object broker. That would hit up I/O (meaning mostly disk) and RAM, but not so much CPU. > >have found out the hard way that the proprietary drivers tend to become > >unusable as the kernel's interfaces change, or when you try to migrate > >the hardware to a new box (ia32 to AMD64, say). > > My SuSE distros have utilized standard stuff, unless specifically > configured otherwise. SuSE has also done an excellent job of > supporting AMD, both 32 and 64.) I am not sure if you got my point on the fragility and lack of portability of proprietary drivers, or not. Your remarks pretty much ignore what I said. I'm delighted that your hardware works well, but that really is unresponsive to what I said. > If you read the SuSE 9.3 license, you will find that copying it and > giving away those copies to others is allowed, as long as the copies > are not given away for profit. This is a frequently repeated misconception -- which I've been obliged to disprove in several forums before, so I happen to have the material handy: First of all, that is not what the licence says, if you heed its _full_ language (cited below). Second, even if it did say that, Novell/SUSE Linux AG would not have the copyright title enabling it to speak for (and nullify the non-redistributable licensing of) Adobe, Real Networks, Opera Software ASA, and Matrica AG. Disk 1 includes a number of licensing-relevant files in its root directory. Here are the English-language ones (as they're also duplicated with German-language ones). COPYING COPYRIGHT LICENSE.TXT Predictably, COPYING is the text of GPLv2. COPYRIGHT is, in part, Novell's brief GPL-compliance document, pointing out that a number of packages' source code is available, and stating where to get it. It also includes the following warning: Not all programs on the CDs are free software. Some of them are shareware, restricted to noncommercial use, or may have other restrictive conditions. The package information mentions the respective license and authors. We cannot, however, ensure the correctness of this information. In cases of doubt, refer to the original copyright information of the respective programs. LICENSE.TXT asserts formation of a contract betwen any recipient and Novell, Inc., concerning "Software", which is defined as "the software product identified in the title of this Agreement, media (if any), and accompanying documentation". The "title" is "SUSE LINUX PROFESSIONAL 9.3". This text follows: You may make and use unlimited copies of the Software for Your distribution and use within Your Organization. You may make and distribute unlimited copies of the Software outside Your organization provided that: 1) You receive no consideration; and, 2) you do not bundle or combine the Software with another offering (e.g., software, hardware, or service). However, the next paragraph severely limits that grant: The Software is a modular operating system. Most of the components are open source packages, developed independently, and accompanied by separate license terms. Your license rights with respect to individual components accompanied by separate license terms are defined by those terms; nothing in this Agreement (including, for example, the "Other License Terms and Restrictions," below) shall restrict, limit, or otherwise affect any rights or obligations You may have, or conditions to which You may be subject, under such license terms. [...] The Software may be bundled with other software programs ("Bundled Programs"). Your license rights with respect to Bundled Programs accompanied by separate license terms are defined by those terms; nothing in this Agreement shall restrict, limit, or otherwise affect any rights or obligations You may have, or conditions to which You may be subject, under such license terms. [...] Non-Novell Products. The Software may include or be bundled with hardware or other software programs licensed or sold by a licensor other than Novell. Interestingly, even the generous-sounding Novell rights grant cited above is non-transferrable! Transfer. This Agreement may not be transferred or assigned without the prior written approval of Novell. So, you're allowed to "make and distribute unlimited copies of the Software outside Your organization", but then those recipients don't enjoy the same rights? Weird. Interestingly, Novell restricts benchmarking! Benchmark Testing. This benchmark testing restriction applies to You if You are a software vendor or if You are performing testing on the Software at the direction of or on behalf of a software vendor. You may not, without Novell's prior written consent not to be unreasonably withheld, publish or disclose to any third party the results of any benchmark test of the Software. Anyhow, I think that more than suffices to show that the claim is incorrect. That is why I refer to 9.3 Professional as a "shrik-wrapped retail edition", one of several they've had, off and on. I try to keep track of the editions and their legal status, here: http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Licensing_and_Law/suse-product-strategy.html _______________________________________________ sf-lug mailing list sf-lug@linuxmafia.com http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. --0-1548886942-1136348742=:29629 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
What program, bundled with SuSE 9.3, disallows non-for-profit copying and dissemination?

Not allowing customers to benchmark a software product is illegal and unenforceable.

Novell profit declined 90% last quarter. We'll see what happens next quarter. Apparently most, if not all, of the SuSE develoers are gone from Novell. There is no way to know what is really happening at Novell, but the SuSE developers essentially WERE SuSE Linux. If Novell doesn't replace those developers, then the SuSE acquisition was a waste. But you have to be happy for the SuSE people, who toiled hard for many years, because they most likely received a very handsome payday when acquired by Novell.

- Adrien


Rick Moen <rick@linuxmafia.com> wrote:
Quoting Adrien Lamothe (alamozzz@yahoo.com):

> I said "... game servers running Linux to host the game Half-Life."
> This sentence is probably unclear. It means the hardware is used to
> host the Half-Life game servers, not the clients. Half-Life servers
> are written for both Unix/Linux and Windows. The site uses the Linux
> versions.

Ah. I had no idea that Half-Life uses a client-server model, not being,
as you probably figured out, much of a gamer.

[low CPU draw, in Linux:]

> That depends. KDE has gotten fairly heavy in recent years. GNOME, with
> a CORBA underpinning, is probably equally heavy.

Both environments tend towards the "heavy" in the sense of RAM gulping,
but not necessarily CPU usage -- especially if you cool it with the
optional visual effects glitter. (This is easily adjustable in KDE if not
GNOME.)

It doesn't stand to reason that merely running a CORBA broker would
create a heavy CPU draw, y'know: It's just an object broker. That
would hit up I/O (meaning mostly disk) and RAM, but not so much CPU.

> >have found out the hard way that the proprietary drivers tend to become
> >unusable as the kernel's interfaces change, or when you try to migrate
> >the hardware to a new box (ia32 to AMD64, say).
>
> My SuSE distros have utilized standard stuff, unless specifically
> configured otherwise. SuSE has also done an excellent job of
> supporting AMD, both 32 and 64.)

I am not sure if you got my point on the fragility and lack of
portability of proprietary drivers, or not. Your remarks pretty much
ignore what I said. I'm delighted that your hardware works well, but
that really is unresponsive to what I said.

> If you read the SuSE 9.3 license, you will find that copying it and
> giving away those copies to others is allowed, as long as the copies
> are not given away for profit.

This is a frequently repeated misconception -- which I've been obliged
to disprove in several forums before, so I happen to have the material
handy:


First of all, that is not what the licence says, if you heed its _full_
language (cited below). Second, even if it did say that, Novell/SUSE
Linux AG would not have the copyright title enabling it to speak for
(and nullify the non-redistributable licensing of) Adobe, Real Networks,
Opera Software ASA, and Matrica AG.

Disk 1 includes a number of licensing-relevant files in its root
directory. Here are the English-language ones (as they're also
duplicated with German-language ones).

COPYING
COPYRIGHT
LICENSE.TXT

Predictably, COPYING is the text of GPLv2.

COPYRIGHT is, in part, Novell's brief GPL-compliance document, pointing
out that a number of packages' source code is available, and stating
where to get it. It also includes the following warning:

Not all programs on the CDs are free software. Some of them
are shareware, restricted to noncommercial use, or may have
other restrictive conditions.

The package information mentions the respective license and authors.
We cannot, however, ensure the correctness of this information. In
cases of doubt, refer to the original copyright information of the
respective programs.

LICENSE.TXT asserts formation of a contract betwen any recipient and
Novell, Inc., concerning "Software", which is defined as "the software
product identified in the title of this Agreement, media (if any), and
accompanying documentation". The "title" is "SUSE LINUX PROFESSIONAL
9.3".

This text follows:

You may make and use unlimited copies of the Software for
Your distribution and use within Your Organization. You
may make and distribute unlimited copies of the Software
outside Your organization provided that: 1) You receive
no consideration; and, 2) you do not bundle or combine
the Software with another offering (e.g., software, hardware,
or service).

However, the next paragraph severely limits that grant:

The Software is a modular operating system. Most of the components
are open source packages, developed independently, and accompanied
by separate license terms. Your license rights with respect to
individual components accompanied by separate license terms are
defined by those terms; nothing in this Agreement (including, for
example, the "Other License Terms and Restrictions," below) shall
restrict, limit, or otherwise affect any rights or obligations You
may have, or conditions to which You may be subject, under such
license terms.

[...]

The Software may be bundled with other software programs ("Bundled
Programs"). Your license rights with respect to Bundled Programs
accompanied by separate license terms are defined by those terms;
nothing in this Agreement shall restrict, limit, or otherwise affect
any rights or obligations You may have, or conditions to which You
may be subject, under such license terms.

[...]

Non-Novell Products. The Software may include or be bundled with
hardware or other software programs licensed or sold by a licensor
other than Novell.

Interestingly, even the generous-sounding Novell rights grant cited
above is non-transferrable!

Transfer. This Agreement may not be transferred or assigned without
the prior written approval of Novell.

So, you're allowed to "make and distribute unlimited copies of the
Software outside Your organization", but then those recipients don't
enjoy the same rights? Weird.

Interestingly, Novell restricts benchmarking!

Benchmark Testing. This benchmark testing restriction applies to
You if You are a software vendor or if You are performing testing on
the Software at the direction of or on behalf of a software vendor.
You may not, without Novell's prior written consent not to be
unreasonably withheld, publish or disclose to any third party the
results of any benchmark test of the Software.

Anyhow, I think that more than suffices to show that the claim is
incorrect. That is why I refer to 9.3 Professional as a "shrik-wrapped
retail edition", one of several they've had, off and on.

I try to keep track of the editions and their legal status, here:
http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Licensing_and_Law/suse-product-strategy.html



_______________________________________________
sf-lug mailing list
sf-lug@linuxmafia.com
http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug

Yahoo! Photos
Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. --0-1548886942-1136348742=:29629-- From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Jan 03 20:32:18 2006 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1Eu0Jt-0008UC-Fz by authid for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2006 20:32:17 -0800 Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 20:32:16 -0800 To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. Message-ID: <20060104043216.GW2513@linuxmafia.com> References: <20060104035159.63963.qmail@web31413.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060104035159.63963.qmail@web31413.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Do-Not-Run: Yes X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 04:32:18 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 3328 Lines: 74 Quoting Adrien Lamothe (alamozzz@yahoo.com): > The computer industry has been going the way of the > automotive industry - do things "good enough", but "cheap". Indeed. > Hardly anyone uses SCSI anymore... People who keep critical data, e.g., database machines with real data that matters, on PATA/SATA are just a little reckless, for well-known reasons. (Or, let's just say that backups and their age would matter a whole lot.) And no, RAIDing them doesn't fix that. The reasons relate to metadata treatment and caching, and you can read about that, here: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BRZ/is_6_23/ai_105884199 Any admin who, say, puts a production Oracle server (with non-throwaway data) on PATA/SATA deserves to be fired. > ...many people think SATA is just as fast.... With enough write-behind cache memory at it, one can fool one's self into thinking that. Where speed for the _dollar_ is concerned, it's actually true, because the SCSI vs. ATA pricing gap has widened even further over the decade or so I've followed this issue. (More about that, below.) But that isn't very _safe_ speed in the protection of current data sense, for reasons indicated. Whether the additional risk of losing a bunch of data back to your last good backup tape is justified is of course a judgement call, and situation-dependent. [...] > It means the CPU is free for other activity > during a large portion of the data transfer. Under IDE, > the CPU is occupied for the entire period of data transfer. Yeah, but don't forget that the CPU goes heavily underused on most Linux deployments, so CPU loading from ATA isn't really the issue that you might think. The exception is during RAID restriping (rebuild) operations, where (e.g.) SATA-based RAID5 arrays tend to have pretty impaired performance and heavy loading until the rebuild completes. That's part of the downside of the money savings. > By the way, SCSI is still expensive. More so all the time. It's apparently largely a market effect, resulting from relative production volumes, and market positioning of SCSI/SAS equipment as "specialty gear", more than previously. Which in turn artificially bumps the prices and widens that gap. But, if you run Oracle, or it's your corporate NFS farm, that's what you buy, because as expensive as the gear is, losing your data to metadata scrambling when a SATA RAID array freezes up is _mondo_ expensive. > So, how much are you willing to pay for a "smoking" system? As stated, the actual intended comparison was _the same_ total cost for the server-balanced system versus the gamer-type one. I'm certainly not sure, in 2006, that the former sort of machine would most reasonably _be_ SCSI-based. If you could live with the aforementioned extra risk of data lossage in the event of array failure, the machine might be based on a Tekram SATA card using an Areca chip (cheap!), or maybe even just the Intel ICH7R or SiI 3112/3114 motherboard-embedded SATA that you get bundled into many commodity systems, these days. And a pair of good HDs doing RAID1, maybe WD Raptors. More at: http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Hardware/sata.html But one thing's for damned sure: It would have immensely better and faster mass storage than a typical gaming box. And less wasted money on overblown CPU and video. From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Jan 03 20:56:33 2006 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1Eu0hM-000086-PQ by authid for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2006 20:56:32 -0800 Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 20:56:32 -0800 From: Rick Moen To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. Message-ID: <20060104045632.GP2501@linuxmafia.com> References: <20060104040632.GV2513@linuxmafia.com> <20060104042542.29754.qmail@web31402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060104042542.29754.qmail@web31402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-SA-Do-Not-Run: Yes X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 04:56:33 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 521 Lines: 20 Quoting Adrien Lamothe (alamozzz@yahoo.com): > What program, bundled with SuSE 9.3, disallows non-for-profit copying > and dissemination? RealPlayer Adobe Acrobat Moneyplex (note: is in German language, only) Opera Web Browser ...and others (this being Professional Edition). See: http://linuxmafia.com/pipermail/conspire/2005-April/001080.html > Not allowing customers to benchmark a software product is illegal and > unenforceable. Citation, please? (I'm not doubting your word; I just don't know the caselaw. From jim@well.com Wed Jan 04 08:34:10 2006 Received: from smtp.well.com ([206.80.4.7]:61753) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EuBaA-0004C5-QT for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2006 08:34:09 -0800 Received: from [192.168.1.101] (dsl081-061-186.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.61.186]) by smtp.well.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k04GXfQU026838; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 08:33:41 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <009601c610ae$7d678cd0$6301a8c0@Diablo> References: <009601c610ae$7d678cd0$6301a8c0@Diablo> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Message-Id: <2E711238-7D40-11DA-B56D-000A95EA5592@well.com> From: jim stockford Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 08:35:57 -0800 To: david@sterryit.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.87.1/1228/Wed Jan 4 02:29:17 2006 on smtp.well.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of jim@well.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 206.80.4.7 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jim@well.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [sf-lug] (no subject) X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Cc: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 16:34:11 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 3895 Lines: 119 I like it! As your docs say, it's very simple: a site-specific chat facility. I love simple. My first wrinkle was not knowing how gracefully to exit. I just closed the browser session after noticing the record shows other users have timed out--I guess my user will time out, too. My second wrinkle is wondering how a site manager might get notification when users initiate a session: I'm thinking the chat facility would be useful for user support: e.g. i love sitting around doing little dink stuff, and if someone connected to the sf-lug site, i'd likely be available for questions, if only i know that someone's joined. Third wrinkle: how to set it up so that there's an "admin not available" sign. Fourth wrinkle: find a chatbot that always lives on the site and can provide some conversation, possibly answer questions. On Jan 3, 2006, at 1:41 PM, David Sterry wrote: > You can take a look at a simple AJAX app I created working from another > guy's code. It's called Chatr and is a chat server written in php that > works with an AJAX(Javascript with background HTTP requests) client. > You > can test it out at http://www.sterryit.com/chat or get more info at > http://www.sterryit.com/chatr > > It's in very early stages so any feedback is appreciated. > > David Sterry, MCSE > Tel 650-773-5942 > Fax 650-523-8634 > David@SterryIT.com > http://www.SterryIT.com > 805 Veterans Blvd. Suite 200 > Redwood City, CA 94063 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sf-lug-bounces@linuxmafia.com > [mailto:sf-lug-bounces@linuxmafia.com] On Behalf Of Rick Moen > Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 10:42 AM > To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com > Subject: Re: [sf-lug] (no subject) > > Quoting vincent polite (vpolitewebsiteguy@yahoo.com): > >> Here's a new website, from the people who brought you PHPfreaks.com. >> Any insights into the value of it? Guidance to understanding this >> world? >> >> http://www.ajaxfreaks.com/ > > Well, if you drive to Sebastopol (near Santa Rosa) in a week, you can > hear a > lecture about the hottest server-end AJAX implementation, Ruby on > Rails. > (See below.) AJAX can be used to create some great things -- as well > as some highly useful but also very proprietary things (like Google > Maps). > Of possible related interest: > http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Essays/winolj.html > > > > Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 08:01:54 -0800 > From: Augie Schwer > Organization: The North Bay Linux Users' Group > To: announce@nblug.org > Subject: [NBLUG/Announce] General Meeting (2006/01/10) : Ruby on Rails > > Hello NBLUG'ers, > > This month our own Rob Orsini will be talking about the much hyped and > very popular Ruby on Rails development framework. > > Description: > > "Ruby on Rails is an open-source Web framework that's optimized for > programmer happiness and sustainable productivity. It lets you write > beautiful code by favoring convention over configuration. > > Rob will demonstrate the creation of a simple database driven Web > application using the Rails framework. He'll also talk about some of > the > best practices that Rails brings to the Web programming table and how > it, and projects like it, are making programming more fun." > > Start: 2006/01/10 - 7:30pm > End: 2006/01/10 - 9:00pm > Location: > O'Reilly, Sebastopol, CA > http://nblug.org/genloc > > We are always looking for speakers, so if you or anyone you know > would like to give a presentation to a group of friendly nerds, please > send an e-mail to speakers@nblug.org . Thank you, and I look forward > to seeing you all there at the next meeting. > > > _______________________________________________ > sf-lug mailing list > sf-lug@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug > > > _______________________________________________ > sf-lug mailing list > sf-lug@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug > From vpolitewebsiteguy@yahoo.com Wed Jan 04 10:45:39 2006 Received: from web53605.mail.yahoo.com ([206.190.37.38]:38588) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EuDcq-0004yU-NB for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2006 10:45:38 -0800 Received: (qmail 63903 invoked by uid 60001); 4 Jan 2006 18:44:37 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=f6y1mRWs/K+qUQq7SUS1CSlpZs4pid60qDtm2hxjXeZi15pi8VwfrFgVmOknvghDbVm9JSDwVdyErFD+JtUoo8rvxErD0ISiJW8T5z4DNHJlbW9/WNVUhvSzMxp8fCVUZKXW+f9bs0kXEY18bxBNdH48zBywymvF4hVXfmXX4bw= ; Message-ID: <20060104184437.63901.qmail@web53605.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.251.53.131] by web53605.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 04 Jan 2006 10:44:37 PST Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 10:44:37 -0800 (PST) From: vincent polite To: jim stockford , david@sterryit.com In-Reply-To: <2E711238-7D40-11DA-B56D-000A95EA5592@well.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of vpolitewebsiteguy@yahoo.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 206.190.37.38 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: vpolitewebsiteguy@yahoo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.2 required=4.0 tests=BAYES_00,HTML_10_20, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=3.1.0 Subject: Re: [sf-lug] (no subject) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-153974935-1136400277=:60212" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Cc: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 18:45:39 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 9686 Lines: 150 --0-153974935-1136400277=:60212 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi David, Thanks for sharing. I actually might be able to use it on this project I'm working on. Of course, you would be acknowledged, and any money coming from it, you'd get apart of. jim stockford wrote: I like it! As your docs say, it's very simple: a site-specific chat facility. I love simple. My first wrinkle was not knowing how gracefully to exit. I just closed the browser session after noticing the record shows other users have timed out--I guess my user will time out, too. My second wrinkle is wondering how a site manager might get notification when users initiate a session: I'm thinking the chat facility would be useful for user support: e.g. i love sitting around doing little dink stuff, and if someone connected to the sf-lug site, i'd likely be available for questions, if only i know that someone's joined. Third wrinkle: how to set it up so that there's an "admin not available" sign. Fourth wrinkle: find a chatbot that always lives on the site and can provide some conversation, possibly answer questions. On Jan 3, 2006, at 1:41 PM, David Sterry wrote: > You can take a look at a simple AJAX app I created working from another > guy's code. It's called Chatr and is a chat server written in php that > works with an AJAX(Javascript with background HTTP requests) client. > You > can test it out at http://www.sterryit.com/chat or get more info at > http://www.sterryit.com/chatr > > It's in very early stages so any feedback is appreciated. > > David Sterry, MCSE > Tel 650-773-5942 > Fax 650-523-8634 > David@SterryIT.com > http://www.SterryIT.com > 805 Veterans Blvd. Suite 200 > Redwood City, CA 94063 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sf-lug-bounces@linuxmafia.com > [mailto:sf-lug-bounces@linuxmafia.com] On Behalf Of Rick Moen > Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 10:42 AM > To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com > Subject: Re: [sf-lug] (no subject) > > Quoting vincent polite (vpolitewebsiteguy@yahoo.com): > >> Here's a new website, from the people who brought you PHPfreaks.com. >> Any insights into the value of it? Guidance to understanding this >> world? >> >> http://www.ajaxfreaks.com/ > > Well, if you drive to Sebastopol (near Santa Rosa) in a week, you can > hear a > lecture about the hottest server-end AJAX implementation, Ruby on > Rails. > (See below.) AJAX can be used to create some great things -- as well > as some highly useful but also very proprietary things (like Google > Maps). > Of possible related interest: > http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Essays/winolj.html > > > > Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 08:01:54 -0800 > From: Augie Schwer > Organization: The North Bay Linux Users' Group > To: announce@nblug.org > Subject: [NBLUG/Announce] General Meeting (2006/01/10) : Ruby on Rails > > Hello NBLUG'ers, > > This month our own Rob Orsini will be talking about the much hyped and > very popular Ruby on Rails development framework. > > Description: > > "Ruby on Rails is an open-source Web framework that's optimized for > programmer happiness and sustainable productivity. It lets you write > beautiful code by favoring convention over configuration. > > Rob will demonstrate the creation of a simple database driven Web > application using the Rails framework. He'll also talk about some of > the > best practices that Rails brings to the Web programming table and how > it, and projects like it, are making programming more fun." > > Start: 2006/01/10 - 7:30pm > End: 2006/01/10 - 9:00pm > Location: > O'Reilly, Sebastopol, CA > http://nblug.org/genloc > > We are always looking for speakers, so if you or anyone you know > would like to give a presentation to a group of friendly nerds, please > send an e-mail to speakers@nblug.org . Thank you, and I look forward > to seeing you all there at the next meeting. > > > _______________________________________________ > sf-lug mailing list > sf-lug@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug > > > _______________________________________________ > sf-lug mailing list > sf-lug@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug > _______________________________________________ sf-lug mailing list sf-lug@linuxmafia.com http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug Vincent Polite 415-386-5629 http://home.covad.net/~vpolite/ --0-153974935-1136400277=:60212 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hi David,
Thanks for sharing. I actually might be able to use it on this project I'm working on. Of course, you would be acknowledged, and any money coming from it, you'd get apart of.

jim stockford <jim@well.com> wrote:

I like it! As your docs say, it's very simple:
a site-specific chat facility. I love simple.
My first wrinkle was not knowing how
gracefully to exit. I just closed the browser
session after noticing the record shows
other users have timed out--I guess my
user will time out, too.
My second wrinkle is wondering how a
site manager might get notification when
users initiate a session: I'm thinking the
chat facility would be useful for user
support: e.g. i love sitting around doing
little dink stuff, and if someone connected
to the sf-lug site, i'd likely be available for
questions, if only i know that someone's
joined.
Third wrinkle: how to set it up so that
there's an "admin not available" sign.
Fourth wrinkle: find a chatbot that always
lives on the site and can provide some
conversation, possibly answer questions.


On Jan 3, 2006, at 1:41 PM, David Sterry wrote:

> You can take a look at a simple AJAX app I created working from another
> guy's code. It's called Chatr and is a chat server written in php that
> works with an AJAX(Javascript with background HTTP requests) client.
> You
> can test it out at http://www.sterryit.com/chat or get more info at
> http://www.sterryit.com/chatr
>
> It's in very early stages so any feedback is appreciated.
>
> David Sterry, MCSE
> Tel 650-773-5942
> Fax 650-523-8634
> David@SterryIT.com
> http://www.SterryIT.com
> 805 Veterans Blvd. Suite 200
> Redwood City, CA 94063
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sf-lug-bounces@linuxmafia.com
> [mailto:sf-lug-bounces@linuxmafia.com] On Behalf Of Rick Moen
> Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 10:42 AM
> To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com
> Subject: Re: [sf-lug] (no subject)
>
> Quoting vincent polite (vpolitewebsiteguy@yahoo.com):
>
>> Here's a new website, from the people who brought you PHPfreaks.com.
>> Any insights into the value of it? Guidance to understanding this
>> world?
>>
>> http://www.ajaxfreaks.com/
>
> Well, if you drive to Sebastopol (near Santa Rosa) in a week, you can
> hear a
> lecture about the hottest server-end AJAX implementation, Ruby on
> Rails.
> (See below.) AJAX can be used to create some great things -- as well
> as some highly useful but also very proprietary things (like Google
> Maps).
> Of possible related interest:
> http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Essays/winolj.html
>
>
>
> Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 08:01:54 -0800
> From: Augie Schwer
> Organization: The North Bay Linux Users' Group
> To: announce@nblug.org
> Subject: [NBLUG/Announce] General Meeting (2006/01/10) : Ruby on Rails
>
> Hello NBLUG'ers,
>
> This month our own Rob Orsini will be talking about the much hyped and
> very popular Ruby on Rails development framework.
>
> Description:
>
> "Ruby on Rails is an open-source Web framework that's optimized for
> programmer happiness and sustainable productivity. It lets you write
> beautiful code by favoring convention over configuration.
>
> Rob will demonstrate the creation of a simple database driven Web
> application using the Rails framework. He'll also talk about some of
> the
> best practices that Rails brings to the Web programming table and how
> it, and projects like it, are making programming more fun."
>
> Start: 2006/01/10 - 7:30pm
> End: 2006/01/10 - 9:00pm
> Location:
> O'Reilly, Sebastopol, CA
> http://nblug.org/genloc
>
> We are always looking for speakers, so if you or anyone you know
> would like to give a presentation to a group of friendly nerds, please
> send an e-mail to speakers@nblug.org . Thank you, and I look forward
> to seeing you all there at the next meeting.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug@linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sf-lug mailing list
> sf-lug@linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug
>


_______________________________________________
sf-lug mailing list
sf-lug@linuxmafia.com
http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug



Vincent Polite
415-386-5629
http://home.covad.net/~vpolite/ --0-153974935-1136400277=:60212-- From nbs@sonic.net Wed Jan 04 10:51:45 2006 Received: from b.mail.sonic.net ([64.142.19.5]:33651) by linuxmafia.com with esmtps (Cipher TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA1:24) (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EuDjX-00050T-QG for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2006 10:51:44 -0800 Received: from newshell.sonic.net (bolt.sonic.net [208.201.242.19]) by b.mail.sonic.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k04IpQKD030172 for ; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 10:51:26 -0800 Received: from bolt.sonic.net (IDENT:DFniU24qJ8inCThapDH+EeY16OZBEpJC@localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by newshell.sonic.net (8.12.10/8.12.1) with ESMTP id k04IpQsT012857 for ; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 10:51:26 -0800 Received: (from nbs@localhost) by bolt.sonic.net (8.12.10/8.12.1/Submit) id k04IpQvA012856 for sf-lug@linuxmafia.com; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 10:51:26 -0800 Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 10:51:26 -0800 From: Bill Kendrick To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20060104185126.GB12246@sonic.net> References: <2E711238-7D40-11DA-B56D-000A95EA5592@well.com> <20060104184437.63901.qmail@web53605.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060104184437.63901.qmail@web53605.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of nbs@sonic.net does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 64.142.19.5 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: nbs@sonic.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.0 Subject: AJAX Chat app (was re: [sf-lug] (no subject)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 18:51:45 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 595 Lines: 21 (Subject lines are always useful ;^) ) jim stockford wrote: > > I like it! As your docs say, it's very simple: > a site-specific chat facility. > love sitting around doing little dink stuff, and if someone connected > to the sf-lug site, i'd likely be available for questions, if only i > know that someone's joined. Heh, I just sit around the #lugod and #svlug IRC channels (amongst a dozen or so others). :) (See: http://www.lugod.org/irc for example, and http://www.freenode.net/ , generally) -- -bill! bill@newbreedsoftware.com http://www.newbreedsoftware.com/ From jim@well.com Wed Jan 04 11:17:09 2006 Received: from smtp.well.com ([206.80.4.7]:48914) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EuE87-0005Gx-Bk for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2006 11:17:08 -0800 Received: from [192.168.1.101] (dsl081-061-186.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.61.186]) by smtp.well.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k04JGxc6000793 for ; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 11:17:00 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Message-Id: To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com From: jim stockford Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 11:19:15 -0800 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.87.1/1228/Wed Jan 4 02:29:17 2006 on smtp.well.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of jim@well.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 206.80.4.7 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jim@well.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=4.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [sf-lug] Fwd: sflug extra meeting about hardware X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 19:17:09 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 790 Lines: 20 I got time this Monday or Tuesday morning from 9:00 AM (or so) till just before noon. Anybody interested? my machines are in a bedroom very near ocean beach in SF. I can go elsewhere to your machines (whoever and where ever). We got coffee, tea, and water at my house. > Jim- lots of questions about linux support, esp concerning > motherboards at the moment. CPUs as well. Have been to Actnet and > Central Computers > with mixed results. Am currently trying to get anwers via the > internet... > Also would like to talk about monitors, video+sound cards, and > appropriate power supply level. I'll let you choose what a.m. to set > this up, as I can free myself for any Mon.-Thu. morning. 9 or 10 am > would work out great, but open to other times. thanks! > Jeff Gibson From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Jan 04 11:34:51 2006 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EuEPK-0005KG-OJ by authid for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2006 11:34:50 -0800 Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 11:34:50 -0800 To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [sf-lug] (no subject) Message-ID: <20060104193450.GY2513@linuxmafia.com> References: <2E711238-7D40-11DA-B56D-000A95EA5592@well.com> <20060104184437.63901.qmail@web53605.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060104184437.63901.qmail@web53605.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Do-Not-Run: Yes X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 19:34:52 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1230 Lines: 26 Quoting vincent polite (vpolitewebsiteguy@yahoo.com): > Hi David, > Thanks for sharing. I actually might be able to use it on this project I'm working on. Of course, you would be acknowledged, and any money coming from it, you'd get apart of. For those who haven't tried & downloaded David's app, it's a nice demo of Javascript / XML/ XMLHttpRequest coding. David, I notice that you don't have a default handler for if function getElement( id ) can't decide what browser this is. You might want to provide one: There are an increasing number of Mozilla-compatible variants and others (e.g. Opera) that are DOM/Javascript capable, and you can't be sure their App Name string will always be "Netscape", as your isFirefox test assumes. Not that you should make special provisions for _my_ browser, but, just to discourage webmasters from making vendor-dependent sites, I tend to browse with App Name set to "Doesn't Matter" and User Agent set to "W3C standards are important. Stop f---ing obsessing over user-agent already." (There are a bunch of us who browse with User Agent set that way, as a specific statement to webmasters and site managers. See: http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/UserAgentString ) From vpolitewebsiteguy@yahoo.com Wed Jan 04 11:52:05 2006 Received: from web53606.mail.yahoo.com ([206.190.37.39]:24867) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EuEfL-0005Ne-HT for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2006 11:52:03 -0800 Received: (qmail 96464 invoked by uid 60001); 4 Jan 2006 19:51:15 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=4GBYlyBhHWmZwOJ0bVfHGD3t7kZzKPiE/9iV3txnP795OC9B2ap2uSJLrgW+T1XWrOWIMgEkYEF9SFywov5Z2kd/OBCzj3mNl4RZu458p2jarmYwiSc4sH4rhv5nFYvT5I9ZRCX1MZFo3NJ42sJcJ96ewFlCU5lP6t5ZZ6fCRb8= ; Message-ID: <20060104195115.96462.qmail@web53606.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.251.53.131] by web53606.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 04 Jan 2006 11:51:15 PST Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 11:51:15 -0800 (PST) From: vincent polite To: Rick Moen , sf-lug@linuxmafia.com In-Reply-To: <20060104193450.GY2513@linuxmafia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of vpolitewebsiteguy@yahoo.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 206.190.37.39 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: vpolitewebsiteguy@yahoo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.2 required=4.0 tests=BAYES_00,HTML_10_20, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=3.1.0 Subject: Re: [sf-lug] (no subject) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1913643551-1136404275=:95470" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 19:52:06 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 4512 Lines: 52 --0-1913643551-1136404275=:95470 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks for the notes Rick. I've always been a little programming phobic. Hate reading through doc's. It is nice to look at something that works, and then begin to see how it works. You begin to see the beauty of minimalist, streamlined, hand, coding. Books are always so daunting. A lot of online stuff seems to not work, or a waste of verbiage, "Is that a real word, he thinks, while trying to sound like he has a solid grasp of the English language, and feel superior, all at the same time." Has he accomplished either? Rick Moen wrote: Quoting vincent polite (vpolitewebsiteguy@yahoo.com): > Hi David, > Thanks for sharing. I actually might be able to use it on this project I'm working on. Of course, you would be acknowledged, and any money coming from it, you'd get apart of. For those who haven't tried & downloaded David's app, it's a nice demo of Javascript / XML/ XMLHttpRequest coding. David, I notice that you don't have a default handler for if function getElement( id ) can't decide what browser this is. You might want to provide one: There are an increasing number of Mozilla-compatible variants and others (e.g. Opera) that are DOM/Javascript capable, and you can't be sure their App Name string will always be "Netscape", as your isFirefox test assumes. Not that you should make special provisions for _my_ browser, but, just to discourage webmasters from making vendor-dependent sites, I tend to browse with App Name set to "Doesn't Matter" and User Agent set to "W3C standards are important. Stop f---ing obsessing over user-agent already." (There are a bunch of us who browse with User Agent set that way, as a specific statement to webmasters and site managers. See: http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/UserAgentString ) _______________________________________________ sf-lug mailing list sf-lug@linuxmafia.com http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug Vincent Polite 415-386-5629 http://home.covad.net/~vpolite/ --0-1913643551-1136404275=:95470 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Thanks for the notes Rick. I've always been a little programming phobic. Hate reading through doc's. It is nice to look at something that works, and then begin to see how it works. You begin to see the beauty of minimalist, streamlined, hand, coding. Books are always so daunting. A lot of online stuff seems to not work, or a waste of verbiage, "Is that a real word, he thinks, while trying to sound like he has a solid grasp of the English language, and feel superior, all at the same time." Has he accomplished either?

Rick Moen <rick@linuxmafia.com> wrote:
Quoting vincent polite (vpolitewebsiteguy@yahoo.com):

> Hi David,
> Thanks for sharing. I actually might be able to use it on this project I'm working on. Of course, you would be acknowledged, and any money coming from it, you'd get apart of.

For those who haven't tried & downloaded David's app, it's a nice demo of
Javascript / XML/ XMLHttpRequest coding.

David, I notice that you don't have a default handler for if function
getElement( id ) can't decide what browser this is. You might want to
provide one: There are an increasing number of Mozilla-compatible
variants and others (e.g. Opera) that are DOM/Javascript capable, and you
can't be sure their App Name string will always be "Netscape", as your
isFirefox test assumes.

Not that you should make special provisions for _my_ browser, but, just
to discourage webmasters from making vendor-dependent sites, I tend to
browse with App Name set to "Doesn't Matter" and User Agent set to
"W3C standards are important. Stop f---ing obsessing over user-agent
already."

(There are a bunch of us who browse with User Agent set that way, as a
specific statement to webmasters and site managers. See:
http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/UserAgentString )


_______________________________________________
sf-lug mailing list
sf-lug@linuxmafia.com
http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug



Vincent Polite
415-386-5629
http://home.covad.net/~vpolite/ --0-1913643551-1136404275=:95470-- From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Jan 04 14:14:19 2006 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EuGtd-0006Lj-UJ by authid for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2006 14:14:17 -0800 Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 14:14:16 -0800 To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20060104221416.GZ2513@linuxmafia.com> References: <20060101023502.GB2513@linuxmafia.com> <20060101211314.59620.qmail@web31406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060101211314.59620.qmail@web31406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Do-Not-Run: Yes X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Subject: [sf-lug] Thanks for the memory[ies] X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 22:14:20 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 618 Lines: 18 Quoting Adrien Lamothe (alamozzz@yahoo.com): > RAM is really inexpensive these days, even the older PC-100. So, I checked: http://www.satech.com/168-pin-3-3v-pc-memory-dimms-pc100-sdram-168-pin-3-3v-memory-dimms.html For a pair of 256MB PC-100 ECC DIMMs, 2 x $68 = $136 (plus tax). (Higher density isn't supported.) The N440BX specs say that "Only ECC (72-bit) DIMMs are specified for use in the N440BX Server system" (either registered or unbuffered, the latter saving a clock cycle). That's about a month worth of lunches at Quiznos. Fond as I am of old unca' Enzo, those sandwiches are a better deal. ;-> From david@sterryit.com Wed Jan 04 15:49:36 2006 Received: from mail24.atl.registeredsite.com ([216.247.37.44]:9383 ident=[U2FsdGVkX1+l9JTXDS/+qDoj9dmkoCvEZA8edVqHPbY=]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EuIMs-0006oe-R8 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2006 15:49:35 -0800 Received: from imta08a2.registeredsite.com (imta08a2.registeredsite.com [64.225.255.17]) by mail24.atl.registeredsite.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k04NmPa4014399 for ; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 18:48:25 -0500 Received: from Diablo ([71.139.58.49]) by imta08a2.registeredsite.com with ESMTP id <20060104234824.VPJZ10036.imta08a2.registeredsite.com@Diablo> for ; Wed, 4 Jan 2006 18:48:24 -0500 From: "David Sterry" To: Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 15:48:24 -0800 Message-ID: <001501c61189$5a3fa4f0$6301a8c0@Diablo> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2616 In-Reply-To: <20060104195115.96462.qmail@web53606.mail.yahoo.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at imta08a2.registeredsite.com from [71.139.58.49] using ID david@sterryit.com at Wed, 4 Jan 2006 18:48:24 -0500 Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of david@sterryit.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.247.37.44 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: david@sterryit.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=3.1.0 Subject: RE: [sf-lug] (no subject) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01C61146.4C1C64F0" X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: david@sterryit.com List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 23:49:37 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 17160 Lines: 502 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C61146.4C1C64F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks guys for your comments. Rick's comments on getElement(id): I've not done much in the way of modifying the javascript client since I found it. I set it to throttle back requests if the user is idling for 2 mins or more, but haven't looked at cross-browser compatibility. That's a good catch though I'll try to address that next release. Jim's comment on graceful exit: I want to look at how blogger asks you if you're sure you want to leave when you're editing a new blog post because it's that kind of thing that could help me get real-time exit messages from the client. For now, timing out is how it's done. Jim's comment on notifying admins when people come in the room: This could be a simple as adding a little email sending code to chat.php when a user first enters. Otherwise, the file status.php is meant to be php or shtml included in a page. It is meant to be included on the homepage of a site, shows how many people are in the room and is linked to the login page. Jim's comment on admin not available sign: This set of scripts is sorely lacking admin functionality short of directly editing the txt files that store the chat text, pings and user data. I've not seen too much abuse so I've not worked on that. The original guy did some of that in asp.net because he was dugg and had some nare-do-wells get in there are start messing with the server. There probably should be a way to designate an admin username and not allow anybody to use that name unless they know a password. Then if admin's not logged in, an admin not available message could be added to the userlist. Jim's comment on the chatbot: Personally I want a chatbot gameshow host that directs 8 users to play a game of chat survivor against one another. 8 users, 3 chatrooms, 1 hour..1 survivor! -Dave -----Original Message----- From: sf-lug-bounces@linuxmafia.com [mailto:sf-lug-bounces@linuxmafia.com] On Behalf Of vincent polite Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 11:51 AM To: Rick Moen; sf-lug@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [sf-lug] (no subject) Thanks for the notes Rick. I've always been a little programming phobic. Hate reading through doc's. It is nice to look at something that works, and then begin to see how it works. You begin to see the beauty of minimalist, streamlined, hand, coding. Books are always so daunting. A lot of online stuff seems to not work, or a waste of verbiage, "Is that a real word, he thinks, while trying to sound like he has a solid grasp of the English language, and feel superior, all at the same time." Has he accomplished either? Rick Moen wrote: Quoting vincent polite (vpolitewebsiteguy@yahoo.com): > Hi David, > Thanks for sharing. I actually might be able to use it on this project I'm working on. Of course, you would be acknowledged, and any money coming from it, you'd get apart of. For those who haven't tried & downloaded David's app, it's a nice demo of Javascript / XML/ XMLHttpRequest coding. David, I notice that you don't have a default handler for if function getElement( id ) can't decide what browser this is. You might want to provide one: There are an increasing number of Mozilla-compatible variants and others (e.g. Opera) that are DOM/Javascript capable, and you can't be sure their App Name string will always be "Netscape", as your isFirefox test assumes. Not that you should make special provisions for _my_ browser, but, just to discourage webmasters from making vendor-dependent sites, I tend to browse with App Name set to "Doesn't Matter" and User Agent set to "W3C standards are important. Stop f---ing obsessing over user-agent already." (There are a bunch of us who browse with User Agent set that way, as a specific statement to webmasters and site managers. See: http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/UserAgentString ) _______________________________________________ sf-lug mailing list sf-lug@linuxmafia.com http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug Vincent Polite 415-386-5629 http://home.covad.net/~vpolite/ ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C61146.4C1C64F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thanks guys for your comments. =

 

Rick’s comments on getElement(id): I’ve not done much in the way of modifying the javascript client since I found it. I set it to throttle back requests if the user = is idling for 2 mins or more, but haven’t = looked at cross-browser compatibility. That’s a good catch though = I’ll try to address that next release.

 

Jim’s comment on graceful = exit: I want to look at how blogger asks you if = you’re sure you want to leave when you’re editing a new blog post because it’s that kind of thing that could help me get = real-time exit messages from the client. For now, timing out is how it’s = done.

 

Jim’s comment on notifying = admins when people come in the room: This could be = a simple as adding a little email sending code to chat.php when a user first enters. Otherwise, the file status.php is meant to be php or shtml included in a = page. It is meant to be included on the homepage of a site, shows how many people = are in the room and is linked to the login page.

 

Jim’s comment on admin not = available sign: This set of scripts is sorely lacking admin functionality short of directly editing the txt files that store the chat text, pings and user = data. I’ve not seen too much abuse so I’ve not worked on that. The original = guy did some of that in asp.net because he was dugg = and had some nare-do-wells get in there are start messing = with the server. There probably should be a way to designate an admin username = and not allow anybody to use that name unless they know a password. Then if = admin’s not logged in, an admin not = available message could be added to the userlist.

 

Jim’s comment on the chatbot: Personally I want a chatbot gameshow host that directs 8 users to play a = game of chat survivor against one another. 8 users, 3 chatrooms, 1 hour….1 survivor!

 

-Dave

-----Original = Message-----
From: sf-lug-bounces@linuxmafia.com [mailto:sf-lug-bounces@linuxmafia.com] = On Behalf Of vincent polite
Sent: = Wednesday, January 04, = 2006 11:51 AM
To: Rick Moen; sf-lug@linuxmafia.com
Subject: Re: [sf-lug] (no = subject)

 

Thanks for the notes Rick. I've always been a = little programming phobic. Hate reading through doc's. It is nice to look at = something that works, and then begin to see how it works. You begin to see the = beauty of minimalist, streamlined, hand, coding. Books are always so daunting. A = lot of online stuff seems to not work, or a waste of verbiage, "Is that a = real word, he thinks, while trying to sound like he has a solid grasp of the = English language, and feel superior, all at the same time." Has he = accomplished either?

Rick Moen <rick@linuxmafia.com> wrote: =

Quoting vincent polite = (vpolitewebsiteguy@yahoo.com):

> Hi David,
> Thanks for sharing. I actually might be able to use it on this = project I'm working on. Of course, you would be acknowledged, and any money coming = from it, you'd get apart of.

For those who haven't tried & downloaded David's app, it's a nice = demo of
Javascript / XML/ XMLHttpRequest coding.

David, I notice that you don't have a default handler for if = function
getElement( id ) can't decide what browser this is. You might want to =
provide one: There are an increasing number of Mozilla-compatible
variants and others (e.g. Opera) that are DOM/Javascript capable, and = you
can't be sure their App Name string will always be "Netscape", = as your
isFirefox test assumes.

Not that you should make special provisions for _my_ browser, but, = just
to discourage webmasters from making vendor-dependent sites, I tend = to
browse with App Name set to "Doesn't Matter" and User Agent = set to
"W3C standards are important. Stop f---ing obsessing over = user-agent
already."

(There are a bunch of us who browse with User Agent set that way, as = a
specific statement to webmasters and site managers. See:
http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/UserAgentString )


_______________________________________________
sf-lug mailing list
sf-lug@linuxmafia.com
http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug

 



Vincent Polite
415-386-5629
http://home.covad.net/~vpolite/

------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C61146.4C1C64F0-- From alamozzz@yahoo.com Wed Jan 04 20:39:11 2006 Received: from web31415.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.198.127]:39323) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EuMtr-0008Nd-GI for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2006 20:39:11 -0800 Received: (qmail 61875 invoked by uid 60001); 5 Jan 2006 04:38:47 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=E0prBMWxEpYeGumnoFz0inJB0RFLANeXbCOeyBvn35q38h4/y9IcXMWj4qPCfG1BU35+imkZjKsQT3FuN0pg63/aFMjRnmDOhrqXSyosV0dyFFvcodcvWnoQoRbj7n+zvC8CPmfEiDaHPNcAnSyFBTM7SH7d3EuLZM7A9x1g/34= ; Message-ID: <20060105043847.61873.qmail@web31415.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [71.141.126.99] by web31415.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 04 Jan 2006 20:38:47 PST Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 20:38:47 -0800 (PST) From: Adrien Lamothe To: Rick Moen , sf-lug@linuxmafia.com In-Reply-To: <20060104043216.GW2513@linuxmafia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of alamozzz@yahoo.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 68.142.198.127 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: alamozzz@yahoo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_40_50, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=3.1.0 Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-671082473-1136435927=:60777" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 04:39:12 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1555 Lines: 28 --0-671082473-1136435927=:60777 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit But one thing's for damned sure: It would have immensely better and faster mass storage than a typical gaming box. And less wasted money on overblown CPU and video. CPU and video is precisely what the gamers need, ergo they want it. They understand the concept of balanced systems. They build systems to optimize game playing, nothing wrong with that. - Adrien --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. --0-671082473-1136435927=:60777 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

But one thing's for damned sure: It would have immensely better and
faster mass storage than a typical gaming box. And less wasted money on overblown CPU and video.

CPU and video is precisely what the gamers need, ergo they want it. They understand the concept of balanced systems. They build systems to optimize game playing, nothing wrong with that.

- Adrien

Yahoo! Photos
Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. --0-671082473-1136435927=:60777-- From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Jan 04 20:47:34 2006 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EuN2D-0008Q1-VZ by authid ; Wed, 04 Jan 2006 20:47:33 -0800 Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 20:47:33 -0800 From: Rick Moen To: Adrien Lamothe Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. Message-ID: <20060105044733.GX7847@linuxmafia.com> References: <20060104043216.GW2513@linuxmafia.com> <20060105043847.61873.qmail@web31415.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060105043847.61873.qmail@web31415.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-SA-Do-Not-Run: Yes X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Cc: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 04:47:35 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 490 Lines: 12 Quoting Adrien Lamothe (alamozzz@yahoo.com): > CPU and video is precisely what the gamers need, ergo they want it. > They understand the concept of balanced systems. They build systems to > optimize game playing, nothing wrong with that. Indeed, not at all. My remarks about "wastage" didn't concern gamers' usage model, but rather, in contrast, the general run of non-gamer scenarios -- for which a very different balance permits best use of one's dollar. Apologies if I was unclear. From alamozzz@yahoo.com Wed Jan 04 20:48:54 2006 Received: from web31409.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.198.121]:43403) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EuN37-0008Qu-Ad for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2006 20:48:53 -0800 Received: (qmail 56288 invoked by uid 60001); 5 Jan 2006 04:48:21 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=XbMapSn4ayPrJv372JmHmGHa4oiRGsSeyXl0QS05+s2KeYjNgQYmudxT9vAUjXRdVXK8FKGP7WFGOwtyPkahfgc6IP2110wuGuRW8xgwd8rkVeLS+OyL3PTXCIfIu2q2l5gYKNzqLgtnNzkUUYHInCvF+ZXACFgEpUxN3yVqcEw= ; Message-ID: <20060105044821.56286.qmail@web31409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [71.141.126.99] by web31409.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 04 Jan 2006 20:48:21 PST Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 20:48:21 -0800 (PST) From: Adrien Lamothe To: Rick Moen , sf-lug@linuxmafia.com In-Reply-To: <20060104221416.GZ2513@linuxmafia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of alamozzz@yahoo.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 68.142.198.121 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: alamozzz@yahoo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.2 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=3.1.0 Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Thanks for the memory[ies] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1407639363-1136436501=:56048" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 04:48:54 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2776 Lines: 48 --0-1407639363-1136436501=:56048 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Why do you need a pair? Wouldn't one DIMM suffice, added to the current configuration? Those systems don't require matched pairs of RAM. Rick Moen wrote: Quoting Adrien Lamothe (alamozzz@yahoo.com): > RAM is really inexpensive these days, even the older PC-100. So, I checked: http://www.satech.com/168-pin-3-3v-pc-memory-dimms-pc100-sdram-168-pin-3-3v-memory-dimms.html For a pair of 256MB PC-100 ECC DIMMs, 2 x $68 = $136 (plus tax). (Higher density isn't supported.) The N440BX specs say that "Only ECC (72-bit) DIMMs are specified for use in the N440BX Server system" (either registered or unbuffered, the latter saving a clock cycle). That's about a month worth of lunches at Quiznos. Fond as I am of old unca' Enzo, those sandwiches are a better deal. ;-> _______________________________________________ sf-lug mailing list sf-lug@linuxmafia.com http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. --0-1407639363-1136436501=:56048 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Why do you need a pair? Wouldn't one DIMM suffice, added to the current configuration? Those systems don't require matched pairs of RAM.



Rick Moen <rick@linuxmafia.com> wrote:
Quoting Adrien Lamothe (alamozzz@yahoo.com):

> RAM is really inexpensive these days, even the older PC-100.

So, I checked:
http://www.satech.com/168-pin-3-3v-pc-memory-dimms-pc100-sdram-168-pin-3-3v-memory-dimms.html

For a pair of 256MB PC-100 ECC DIMMs, 2 x $68 = $136 (plus tax).
(Higher density isn't supported.)

The N440BX specs say that "Only ECC (72-bit) DIMMs are specified for use
in the N440BX Server system" (either registered or unbuffered, the
latter saving a clock cycle).

That's about a month worth of lunches at Quiznos. Fond as I am of
old unca' Enzo, those sandwiches are a better deal. ;->


_______________________________________________
sf-lug mailing list
sf-lug@linuxmafia.com
http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug

Yahoo! Photos
Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. --0-1407639363-1136436501=:56048-- From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Jan 04 21:20:36 2006 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EuNYB-0000G5-H9 by authid ; Wed, 04 Jan 2006 21:20:35 -0800 Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 21:20:34 -0800 From: Rick Moen To: Adrien Lamothe Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Thanks for the memory[ies] Message-ID: <20060105052034.GZ7847@linuxmafia.com> References: <20060104221416.GZ2513@linuxmafia.com> <20060105044821.56286.qmail@web31409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060105044821.56286.qmail@web31409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-SA-Do-Not-Run: Yes X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Cc: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 05:20:36 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 898 Lines: 30 Quoting Adrien Lamothe (alamozzz@yahoo.com): > Why do you need a pair? Who said I "needed a pair"? > Those systems don't require matched pairs of RAM. Who claimed they "require matched pairs"? > Wouldn't one DIMM suffice, added to the current configuration? "Suffice" if I just wanted to add 256MB or less, sure. But that seems hardly worth the trouble. Since you asked, though: http://www.satech.com/168-pin-3-3v-pc-memory-dimms-pc100-sdram-168-pin-3-3v-memory-dimms.html has: 64MB PC-100 ECC DIMM, $17 128MB PC-100 ECC DIMM $37 256MB PC-100 ECC DIMM $68 (as mentioned earlier) As mentioned in my earlier post, higher density (than 256MB per stick) isn't supported, which is why the only way you can add 512MB is with some combination of smaller sticks. (Thus the pair cited in my earlier example.) Any way you slice it, it's a lot of sandwiches versus very little system benefit. From jim@well.com Thu Jan 05 08:46:16 2006 Received: from smtp.well.com ([206.80.4.7]:41903) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EuYEO-0004KU-R7 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2006 08:46:15 -0800 Received: from [192.168.1.101] (dsl081-061-186.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.61.186]) by smtp.well.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k05GHA24019491 for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 08:17:11 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com Message-Id: <0A693854-7E07-11DA-B56D-000A95EA5592@well.com> From: jim stockford Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 08:19:26 -0800 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.87.1/1230/Thu Jan 5 03:49:56 2006 on smtp.well.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of jim@well.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 206.80.4.7 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jim@well.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-11--743023338 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [sf-lug] Fwd: Linux happenings in '06 X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 16:46:17 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 19528 Lines: 693 --Apple-Mail-11--743023338 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed The forwarded email below includes a list of significant linux developments expected in 2006, including notably (to me): * XEN inclusion in Fedora Core 5 * PalmSource Linux offering * Open Source Development Lab's Project ...Portland (targets the desktop) * Red Hat Enterprise Linux 5 * IBM's continued promotion of Open Data ...Formats (Peter Quinn RIP). Begin forwarded message: > From: "NW on Linux" > Date: January 5, 2006 12:20:00 AM PST > To: jim@well.com > Subject: Linux happenings in '06 > Reply-To: Linux Help > > NETWORK WORLD NEWSLETTER: PHIL HOCHMUTH ON LINUX > 01/02/06 > Today's focus: Linux happenings in '06 > > Dear jim@well.com, > > In this issue: > > * Plan your year around Linux > * Links related to Linux > * Featured reader resource > _______________________________________________________________ > This newsletter is sponsored by Akamai > Accelerating Web-based Applications: Managed Services Offer > Benefits Without Infrastructure Headaches > > Look at most companies and you'll find one thing in common, a > move to Web-enable mission critical applications. A new breed of > managed services, aimed directly at accelerating performance and > availability of Web-based applications, helps companies attain > their goals of profit and growth - no matter how far or wide the > audience they are trying to reach. Learn how Web-based > applications can allow your company to boost the bottom line. > Download this Network World Special Report today! > http://www.fattail.com/redir/redirect.asp?CID=123961 > _______________________________________________________________ > NETWORK WORLD PRESENTS THE ENTERPRISE ALL STARS > > NWW honors 50 companies and their groundbreaking network > projects. Companies who have projects so stellar they are > examples for all. Read about the winners by technology and by > industry, how they demonstrated exceptional use of technology, > and how smart use of technology is smart business. Click here > to read the Enterprise All-Star Special Issue: > http://www.fattail.com/redir/redirect.asp?CID=124036 > _______________________________________________________________ > > Today's focus: Linux happenings in '06 > > By Phil Hochmuth > > As we return to work this first week of 2006, Linux users with > the post-holiday blahs, cabin fever or seasonal affective > disorder should be glad to know there is a lot to look forward > to this year. > > Here is a rundown of expected Linux happenings in 2006. > > February > > Users of Red Hat's free Fedora Core operating system will get an > upgrade when Version 5 of the software is released. The new code > will include Xen virtualization software - a precursor of more > to come from Red Hat in '06 - as well as an SELinux security > package and a LDAP directory administration tool. > > March > > Expect to see Novell's SuSE Linux Enterprise Server 10 (SLES) > released around the time of its BrainShare conference in Salt > Lake City. Improved system management features, and server > virtualization management. > > April > > LinuxWorld Expo organizers decided last year's February show in > Boston might have been a little to chilly. The 2006 show, > running April 3-6, will take place at a larger venue as well - > the new Boston Convention & Exhibition Center. > > May/June > > Expect PalmSource to make its first Linux offering around the > end of the first half of the year. Palm OS for Linux will give > Palm devices a broader set of hardware and application options > as Linux becomes a more popular platform for handheld computing. > > June/July > > The Open Source Development Lab is expected to have the first > release of its Project Portland out by the beginning of the > summer. The desktop-focused Linux effort sets common application > criteria for personal Linux PC software and includes input from > Adobe Systems, AMD, Eclipse, FSG, Gnome, IBM, Intel, KDE, > Mozilla, Nokia, OpenOffice, Red Hat and others. > > August > > LinuxWorld Expo takes place for the seventh year at the Moscone > Center in San Francisco. At LinuxWorld, expect to hear from > Novell again, as it launches an update to its Open Enterprise > Server, which includes both its NetWare and SuSE Linux operating > system kernels. > > September/October > > Red Hat Enterprise Linux 5 is expected to launch at the > beginning of the fall. The new software will wrap in the Xen > virtualization software for servers, as well as a new "Stateless > Linux" feature, allowing thin clients to run a full desktop > client environment hosted on a RHEL 5 server. > > November/December > > IBM is expected to move more aggressively towards Open Data > Formats (ODF), also known as the OpenDocument format. Documents > created in IBM applications - such as its Lotus suite - will use > a standard, open source file format, allowing the documents to > be viewed by users who do not have the originating software. > > The top 10 most-read stories of 2005 > > 1. Mad as hell, switching to Mac > > 2. How to solve Windows system crashes in minutes > > 3. McAfee, Omniquad top anti-spyware test > > 4. This net screams > > 5. Networking skills are still hot > > 6. The 2005 salary survey > > 7. Cracking the wireless security code > > 8. 10 ways to stop spyware > > 9. VoIP analysis tools tested > > 10. Shattered Mac illusions > > > _______________________________________________________________ > To contact: Phil Hochmuth > > Phil Hochmuth is a Network World Senior Editor and a former > systems integrator. You can reach him at > . > _______________________________________________________________ > This newsletter is sponsored by Akamai > Accelerating Web-based Applications: Managed Services Offer > Benefits Without Infrastructure Headaches > > Look at most companies and you'll find one thing in common, a > move to Web-enable mission critical applications. A new breed of > managed services, aimed directly at accelerating performance and > availability of Web-based applications, helps companies attain > their goals of profit and growth - no matter how far or wide the > audience they are trying to reach. Learn how Web-based > applications can allow your company to boost the bottom line. > Download this Network World Special Report today! > http://www.fattail.com/redir/redirect.asp?CID=123960 > _______________________________________________________________ > ARCHIVE LINKS > > Breaking Linux news from Network World and around the 'Net, > updated daily: http://www.networkworld.com/topics/linux.html > Archive of the Linux newsletter: > http://www.networkworld.com/newsletters/linux/index.html > _______________________________________________________________ > WEBCAST: Optimize your WAN Case studies from the real world. > > Wide area Data Services (WDS) technology has been deployed > across many industries in order to dramatically enhance WAN > performance. In this webcast, two organizations discuss their > own results and ROI: Applications running 5 to 100 times faster > :: Bandwidth utilization reduced by 60% to 95% :: ROI in less > than two months. > http://www.fattail.com/redir/redirect.asp?CID=123724 > _______________________________________________________________ > FEATURED READER RESOURCE > > WHO'S MANAGING YOUR HOME NETWORK? > > You probably are - and you're probably managing your neighbors' > home networks too. Get the latest in home networking devices & > security solutions and stay current on home network fun - > streaming video wirelessly on your TV for example - by getting > Network Life from Network World. Sign up for this no charge > webzine today: > > > _______________________________________________________________ > May We Send You a Free Print Subscription? > You've got the technology snapshot of your choice delivered > at your fingertips each day. Now, extend your knowledge by > receiving 51 FREE issues to our print publication. Apply > today at http://www.subscribenw.com/nl2 > > International subscribers click here: > http://nww1.com/go/circ_promo.html > _______________________________________________________________ > SUBSCRIPTION SERVICES > > To subscribe or unsubscribe to any Network World e-mail > newsletters, go to: > > > To change your e-mail address, go to: > > > Subscription questions? Contact Customer Service by replying to > this message. > > This message was sent to: jim@well.com > Please use this address when modifying your subscription. > _______________________________________________________________ > > Have editorial comments? Write Jeff Caruso, Newsletter Editor, > at: > > Inquiries to: NL Customer Service, Network World, Inc., 118 > Turnpike Road, Southborough, MA 01772 > > For advertising information, write Susan Cardoza, Associate > Publisher Online, at: > > Copyright Network World, Inc., 2006 > --Apple-Mail-11--743023338 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII The forwarded email below includes a list of significant linux developments expected in 2006, including notably (to me): * XEN inclusion in Fedora Core 5 * PalmSource Linux offering * Open Source Development Lab's Project ...Portland (targets the desktop) * Red Hat Enterprise Linux 5 * IBM's continued promotion of Open Data ...Formats (Peter Quinn RIP). Begin forwarded message: 0000,0000,0000From: "NW on Linux" < 0000,0000,0000Date: January 5, 2006 12:20:00 AM PST 0000,0000,0000To: jim@well.com 0000,0000,0000Subject: Linux happenings in '06 0000,0000,0000Reply-To: Linux Help < NETWORK WORLD NEWSLETTER: PHIL HOCHMUTH ON LINUX 01/02/06 Today's focus: Linux happenings in '06 Dear jim@well.com, In this issue: * Plan your year around Linux * Links related to Linux * Featured reader resource _______________________________________________________________ This newsletter is sponsored by Akamai Accelerating Web-based Applications: Managed Services Offer Benefits Without Infrastructure Headaches Look at most companies and you'll find one thing in common, a move to Web-enable mission critical applications. A new breed of managed services, aimed directly at accelerating performance and availability of Web-based applications, helps companies attain their goals of profit and growth - no matter how far or wide the audience they are trying to reach. Learn how Web-based applications can allow your company to boost the bottom line. Download this Network World Special Report today! http://www.fattail.com/redir/redirect.asp?CID=123961 _______________________________________________________________ NETWORK WORLD PRESENTS THE ENTERPRISE ALL STARS NWW honors 50 companies and their groundbreaking network projects. Companies who have projects so stellar they are examples for all. Read about the winners by technology and by industry, how they demonstrated exceptional use of technology, and how smart use of technology is smart business. Click here to read the Enterprise All-Star Special Issue: http://www.fattail.com/redir/redirect.asp?CID=124036 _______________________________________________________________ Today's focus: Linux happenings in '06 By Phil Hochmuth As we return to work this first week of 2006, Linux users with the post-holiday blahs, cabin fever or seasonal affective disorder should be glad to know there is a lot to look forward to this year. Here is a rundown of expected Linux happenings in 2006. February Users of Red Hat's free Fedora Core operating system will get an upgrade when Version 5 of the software is released. The new code will include Xen virtualization software - a precursor of more to come from Red Hat in '06 - as well as an SELinux security package and a LDAP directory administration tool. March Expect to see Novell's SuSE Linux Enterprise Server 10 (SLES) released around the time of its BrainShare conference in Salt Lake City. Improved system management features, and server virtualization management. April LinuxWorld Expo organizers decided last year's February show in Boston might have been a little to chilly. The 2006 show, running April 3-6, will take place at a larger venue as well - the new Boston Convention & Exhibition Center. May/June Expect PalmSource to make its first Linux offering around the end of the first half of the year. Palm OS for Linux will give Palm devices a broader set of hardware and application options as Linux becomes a more popular platform for handheld computing. June/July The Open Source Development Lab is expected to have the first release of its Project Portland out by the beginning of the summer. The desktop-focused Linux effort sets common application criteria for personal Linux PC software and includes input from Adobe Systems, AMD, Eclipse, FSG, Gnome, IBM, Intel, KDE, Mozilla, Nokia, OpenOffice, Red Hat and others. August LinuxWorld Expo takes place for the seventh year at the Moscone Center in San Francisco. At LinuxWorld, expect to hear from Novell again, as it launches an update to its Open Enterprise Server, which includes both its NetWare and SuSE Linux operating system kernels. September/October Red Hat Enterprise Linux 5 is expected to launch at the beginning of the fall. The new software will wrap in the Xen virtualization software for servers, as well as a new "Stateless Linux" feature, allowing thin clients to run a full desktop client environment hosted on a RHEL 5 server. November/December IBM is expected to move more aggressively towards Open Data Formats (ODF), also known as the OpenDocument format. Documents created in IBM applications - such as its Lotus suite - will use a standard, open source file format, allowing the documents to be viewed by users who do not have the originating software. The top 10 most-read stories of 2005 1. Mad as hell, switching to Mac < 2. How to solve Windows system crashes in minutes < 3. McAfee, Omniquad top anti-spyware test < 4. This net screams < 5. Networking skills are still hot < 6. The 2005 salary survey < 7. Cracking the wireless security code < 8. 10 ways to stop spyware < 9. VoIP analysis tools tested < 10. Shattered Mac illusions < _______________________________________________________________ To contact: Phil Hochmuth Phil Hochmuth is a Network World Senior Editor and a former systems integrator. You can reach him at <. _______________________________________________________________ This newsletter is sponsored by Akamai Accelerating Web-based Applications: Managed Services Offer Benefits Without Infrastructure Headaches Look at most companies and you'll find one thing in common, a move to Web-enable mission critical applications. A new breed of managed services, aimed directly at accelerating performance and availability of Web-based applications, helps companies attain their goals of profit and growth - no matter how far or wide the audience they are trying to reach. Learn how Web-based applications can allow your company to boost the bottom line. Download this Network World Special Report today! http://www.fattail.com/redir/redirect.asp?CID=123960 _______________________________________________________________ ARCHIVE LINKS Breaking Linux news from Network World and around the 'Net, updated daily: http://www.networkworld.com/topics/linux.html Archive of the Linux newsletter: http://www.networkworld.com/newsletters/linux/index.html _______________________________________________________________ WEBCAST: Optimize your WAN Case studies from the real world. Wide area Data Services (WDS) technology has been deployed across many industries in order to dramatically enhance WAN performance. In this webcast, two organizations discuss their own results and ROI: Applications running 5 to 100 times faster :: Bandwidth utilization reduced by 60% to 95% :: ROI in less than two months. http://www.fattail.com/redir/redirect.asp?CID=123724 _______________________________________________________________ FEATURED READER RESOURCE WHO'S MANAGING YOUR HOME NETWORK? You probably are - and you're probably managing your neighbors' home networks too. Get the latest in home networking devices & security solutions and stay current on home network fun - streaming video wirelessly on your TV for example - by getting Network Life from Network World. Sign up for this no charge webzine today: < _______________________________________________________________ May We Send You a Free Print Subscription? You've got the technology snapshot of your choice delivered at your fingertips each day. Now, extend your knowledge by receiving 51 FREE issues to our print publication. Apply today at http://www.subscribenw.com/nl2 International subscribers click here: http://nww1.com/go/circ_promo.html _______________________________________________________________ SUBSCRIPTION SERVICES To subscribe or unsubscribe to any Network World e-mail newsletters, go to: < To change your e-mail address, go to: < Subscription questions? Contact Customer Service by replying to this message. This message was sent to: jim@well.com Please use this address when modifying your subscription. _______________________________________________________________ Have editorial comments? Write Jeff Caruso, Newsletter Editor, at: < Inquiries to: NL Customer Service, Network World, Inc., 118 Turnpike Road, Southborough, MA 01772 For advertising information, write Susan Cardoza, Associate Publisher Online, at: < Copyright Network World, Inc., 2006 --Apple-Mail-11--743023338-- From vpolitewebsiteguy@yahoo.com Thu Jan 05 11:12:50 2006 Received: from web53606.mail.yahoo.com ([206.190.37.39]:38347) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EuaXM-0005KK-9S for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2006 11:12:49 -0800 Received: (qmail 25936 invoked by uid 60001); 5 Jan 2006 19:12:27 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=MfO8ZkCoLp4/pw7ltIVn1wGY5Th7ejEWQwx/wAVKEjle57XxiG1XcyS1na/UQC20DSImxu++dH7dds7cgD2WPNXmkesV0XjwK3gVZDMbDQXwwpzEp8/Fgb812+GynhMwQF3ChZ98LlD+S2W4mSqLiy94MLol6XbCU9WX0ftJUQk= ; Message-ID: <20060105191227.25933.qmail@web53606.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.251.53.131] by web53606.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 05 Jan 2006 11:12:27 PST Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 11:12:27 -0800 (PST) From: vincent polite To: "sf-lug@linuxmafia.com" , mbiggi@cooley.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of vpolitewebsiteguy@yahoo.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 206.190.37.39 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: vpolitewebsiteguy@yahoo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.2 required=4.0 tests=BAYES_00,HTML_10_20, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=3.1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1848273249-1136488347=:23747" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [sf-lug] Seeking a convert X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 19:12:51 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1356 Lines: 21 --0-1848273249-1136488347=:23747 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all, I'm working at this law firm, temp job. And the Senior IT Specialist is looking to convert some of the server duties to Linux. I don't pretend to understand all the details. When he tries to install RH 9, Fedora 3, on the DNS server, he gets a message asking install the a file from a floppy. Mark Biggi is the victim of this inquiry. Make since? It has something to do with the RAID. Love to learn something new. Thanks Vincent Polite 415-386-5629 http://home.covad.net/~vpolite/ --0-1848273249-1136488347=:23747 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hi all,
I'm working at this law firm, temp job. And the Senior IT Specialist is looking to convert some of the server duties to Linux. I don't pretend to understand all the details. When he tries to install RH 9, Fedora 3, on the DNS server, he gets a message asking install the a file from a floppy. Mark Biggi is the victim of this inquiry. Make since? It has something to do with the RAID. Love to learn something new.
 
Thanks


Vincent Polite
415-386-5629
http://home.covad.net/~vpolite/ --0-1848273249-1136488347=:23747-- From vpolitewebsiteguy@yahoo.com Thu Jan 05 11:17:30 2006 Received: from web53604.mail.yahoo.com ([206.190.37.37]:22775) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1Euabv-0005LV-98 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2006 11:17:29 -0800 Received: (qmail 64854 invoked by uid 60001); 5 Jan 2006 19:17:11 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=pQHwJd4dc4fJhP+7s8IVOzCNtSMYsbi/MeTTJe6IT4ZHaOkZ5HSLr42ejbM1NOHn4nXJr/5SyMwQFwv3i8xFXhx7gmUOau3S0RK2dF9NpilAHTLI0kOm+QMDyUxsvmLK47gaWbcathV768hVTAdwLxtDGgeUXBbtTKz0B7PdWvA= ; Message-ID: <20060105191711.64852.qmail@web53604.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.251.53.131] by web53604.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 05 Jan 2006 11:17:11 PST Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 11:17:11 -0800 (PST) From: vincent polite To: "sf-lug@linuxmafia.com" , mbiggi@cooley.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of vpolitewebsiteguy@yahoo.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 206.190.37.37 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: vpolitewebsiteguy@yahoo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=3.1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1155897737-1136488631=:61623" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [sf-lug] Seeking a convert...part 2 X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 19:17:31 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1635 Lines: 22 --0-1155897737-1136488631=:61623 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all, I gave the wrong address for Mark. It is mbiggi@cooley.com. My faux pax...Or whatever you are supposed to say... I'm working at this law firm, temp job. And the Senior IT Specialist is looking to convert some of the server duties to Linux. I don't pretend to understand all the details. When he tries to install RH 9, Fedora 3, on the DNS server, he gets a message asking install the a file from a floppy. Mark Biggi is the victim of this inquiry. Make since? It has something to do with the RAID. Love to learn something new. Thanks Vincent Polite 415-386-5629 http://home.covad.net/~vpolite/ --0-1155897737-1136488631=:61623 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hi all,
I gave the wrong address for Mark. It is mbiggi@cooley.com. My faux pax...Or whatever you are supposed to say...
I'm working at this law firm, temp job. And the Senior IT Specialist is looking to convert some of the server duties to Linux. I don't pretend to understand all the details. When he tries to install RH 9, Fedora 3, on the DNS server, he gets a message asking install the a file from a floppy. Mark Biggi is the victim of this inquiry. Make since? It has something to do with the RAID. Love to learn something new.
 
Thanks


Vincent Polite
415-386-5629
http://home.covad.net/~vpolite/ --0-1155897737-1136488631=:61623-- From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Jan 05 11:56:44 2006 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EubE3-0005ST-Hp by authid ; Thu, 05 Jan 2006 11:56:43 -0800 Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 11:56:42 -0800 To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Seeking a convert...part 2 Message-ID: <20060105195642.GF2513@linuxmafia.com> References: <20060105191711.64852.qmail@web53604.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060105191711.64852.qmail@web53604.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Do-Not-Run: Yes X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Cc: mbiggi@cooley.com X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 19:56:45 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2514 Lines: 53 Quoting vincent polite (vpolitewebsiteguy@yahoo.com): > I gave the wrong address for Mark. It is mbiggi@cooley.com. My faux > pas...Or whatever you are supposed to say... Not a problem, but the best way for this to proceed would be for Mark to join this mailing list. Otherwise, either everyone has to manually Cc him on all postings, or someone has to forward the traffic -- and any postings Mark tries to send to the mailing list will get held for moderator approval by Jim (as being from a non-subscribed address). > I'm working at this law firm, temp job. And the Senior IT Specialist > is looking to convert some of the server duties to Linux. I don't > pretend to understand all the details. When he tries to install RH > 9, Fedora 3, on the DNS server, he gets a message asking install the > a file from a floppy. Mark Biggi is the victim of this inquiry. Make > sense? It has something to do with the RAID. Love to learn something > new. Clear as mud to _me_, at least, I'm afraid. I know DNS, and I know Red Hattish systems (albeit I'm a little rusty), and I know most varieties of Linux RAID (there are many, some hardware based, some software done entirely with the Linux "md" = multi device driver, and some BIOS-assisted "fakeraid") -- but I have no idea what the "a" file is, in this context. By the way, I would heavily discourage RH9, and lightly discourage Fedora Core 3, for this purpose. There are much better choices of the RH-ish persuasion, if one leans that way: o RH9: Support/updates ceased on 2004-04-30. In theory, you can still get some updates from the Fedora Legacy project, but their coverage has been spotty and unreliable. o FC3: Released 2004-11-08, and scheduled to be transferred to Fedora Legacy project in mid-January. (See comments above.) Also, FC3 had significant SELinux problems that were fixed only with the FC4 redesign. Mark could certainly use FC4 -- which is functional if a bit aggressive in pushing technological progress (beta-ish), bearing in mind that it's a test platform and has a rapid end-of-life schedule. (FC5 is planned to out in March.) I would urge Mark to also consider CentOS, which is Red Hat Enterprise Linux in all but name, community-recompiled and supported. There are both RHEL 3.0 and 4.0 variants. http://www.centos.org/ -- Cheers, Rick Moen "vi is my shepherd; I shall not font." rick@linuxmafia.com -- Psalm 0.1 beta From jim@well.com Fri Jan 06 02:09:20 2006 Received: from smtp.well.com ([206.80.4.7]:54120) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EuoWw-000239-Dk ; Fri, 06 Jan 2006 02:09:19 -0800 Received: from [192.168.1.101] (dsl081-061-186.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.61.186]) by smtp.well.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k06A8p8B004837; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 02:08:51 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20060105195642.GF2513@linuxmafia.com> References: <20060105191711.64852.qmail@web53604.mail.yahoo.com> <20060105195642.GF2513@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Message-Id: From: jim stockford Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 02:11:05 -0800 To: Rick Moen X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.87.1, clamav-milter version 0.87 on smtp.well.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of jim@well.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 206.80.4.7 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jim@well.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Seeking a convert...part 2 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Cc: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com, mbiggi@cooley.com X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 10:09:20 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 3496 Lines: 82 I'd like to second Rick's suggestion re CentOS. If Mark is getting messages asking for floppy disks, he's using old software, either RH9 or something he's downloaded. There's no relation between floppy and RAID at install time, other than maybe some RAID tools are in some RPM that's expected from a floppy drive. CentOS is a few bucks from either Spidertools or CheapBytes and is robust. Fedora is cutting edge and without guarantees; a good choice to get a look at possibilities in the next RHEL release (RHEL 5 is coming in summer 2006), but not my choice for a server machine. With CentOS 4 (did I mention CentOS?) you get easy-to-use RAID and LVM tools: "it just works". On Jan 5, 2006, at 11:56 AM, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting vincent polite (vpolitewebsiteguy@yahoo.com): > >> I gave the wrong address for Mark. It is mbiggi@cooley.com. My faux >> pas...Or whatever you are supposed to say... > > Not a problem, but the best way for this to proceed would be for Mark > to > join this mailing list. Otherwise, either everyone has to manually Cc > him on all postings, or someone has to forward the traffic -- and any > postings Mark tries to send to the mailing list will get held for > moderator approval by Jim (as being from a non-subscribed address). > >> I'm working at this law firm, temp job. And the Senior IT Specialist >> is looking to convert some of the server duties to Linux. I don't >> pretend to understand all the details. When he tries to install RH >> 9, Fedora 3, on the DNS server, he gets a message asking install the >> a file from a floppy. Mark Biggi is the victim of this inquiry. Make >> sense? It has something to do with the RAID. Love to learn something >> new. > > Clear as mud to _me_, at least, I'm afraid. > > I know DNS, and I know Red Hattish systems (albeit I'm a little rusty), > and I know most varieties of Linux RAID (there are many, some hardware > based, some software done entirely with the Linux "md" = multi device > driver, and some BIOS-assisted "fakeraid") -- but I have no idea what > the "a" file is, in this context. > > By the way, I would heavily discourage RH9, and lightly discourage > Fedora Core 3, for this purpose. There are much better choices of the > RH-ish persuasion, if one leans that way: > > o RH9: Support/updates ceased on 2004-04-30. In theory, you can > still > get some updates from the Fedora Legacy project, but their > coverage has been spotty and unreliable. > o FC3: Released 2004-11-08, and scheduled to be transferred to > Fedora Legacy project in mid-January. (See comments above.) > Also, FC3 had significant SELinux problems that were fixed > only with the FC4 redesign. > > Mark could certainly use FC4 -- which is functional if a bit aggressive > in pushing technological progress (beta-ish), bearing in mind that it's > a test platform and has a rapid end-of-life schedule. (FC5 is planned > to out in March.) > > I would urge Mark to also consider CentOS, which is Red Hat Enterprise > Linux in all but name, community-recompiled and supported. There are > both RHEL 3.0 and 4.0 variants. http://www.centos.org/ > > -- > Cheers, > Rick Moen "vi is my shepherd; I shall not font." > rick@linuxmafia.com -- Psalm 0.1 beta > > _______________________________________________ > sf-lug mailing list > sf-lug@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug > From alamozzz@yahoo.com Fri Jan 06 18:50:59 2006 Received: from web31410.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.198.122]:35220) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1Ev4AA-0001HA-Un for ; Fri, 06 Jan 2006 18:50:58 -0800 Received: (qmail 67241 invoked by uid 60001); 7 Jan 2006 02:50:29 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=GMQ4UJxqfpd5ScD/g9OyjAO5btv7PdkLk/kPlQqnEtDx0C8dFzdGLLjj2BJ+Y6Ihime5Bi3SIr9bvsbcVJ53aHNwvJRgXj3w1qJBSaolnDpoSS4I7tvY8C3SyfXwAiI8+DW/JtsI7uQpDqELacTmFPmcNXRS1imNF4AajjIO/Lk= ; Message-ID: <20060107025029.67239.qmail@web31410.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.111.59.163] by web31410.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 06 Jan 2006 18:50:29 PST Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 18:50:29 -0800 (PST) From: Adrien Lamothe To: SF Linux Users Group MIME-Version: 1.0 Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of alamozzz@yahoo.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 68.142.198.122 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: alamozzz@yahoo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.3 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_10_20, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=3.1.0 Subject: Fwd: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1986368777-1136602229=:65538" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 02:50:59 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 4665 Lines: 63 --0-1986368777-1136602229=:65538 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ah, didn't mean to take the thread private, was very tired that night. Rick Moen wrote: Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 21:28:55 -0800 From: Rick Moen To: Adrien Lamothe Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. Quoting Adrien Lamothe (alamozzz@yahoo.com): > I'd like to see Real Networks, Adobe, et. al, actually try to sue > someone for giving away programs that are freely available to anyone > over the internet; that would be an entertaining case. You can set up a test case, easily enough: Just post a public copy of Acrobat Reader on a Web site of yours, and then drop Adobe's lawyers a note furnishing the URL, saying you'll be operating that as an unauthorised download site, and daring them to try to stop you. They of course _can_: Among the rights reserved by default to copyright owners is the right of distribution, and thus the right to offer the work only from authorised sites, or not at all. That's why _granting_ the public the right of redistribution requires a specific licence grant to that effect, and why there is no such right without such a grant. > Actually, you are the one who needs to cite an example of a suit > brought against a consumer for benchmarking a product. Huh? I believe you were saying that disallowing software benchmarking via a product EULA is illegal and unenforceable. I therefore would like to see a cite of the controlling law (statute or caselaw), since I can't find any. You must have had some reason to think that; all I did was ask you to cite that reason. (I note that you dropped offlist into private e-mail. Therefore, to avoid violating your privacy, I am continuing in the same medium, even though I actually strongly prefer for public threads to remain in public, unless someone has mentioned a compelling reason for privacy.) --------------------------------- Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less --0-1986368777-1136602229=:65538 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Ah, didn't mean to take the thread private, was very tired that night.



Rick Moen <rick@linuxmafia.com> wrote:
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 21:28:55 -0800
From: Rick Moen <rick@linuxmafia.com>
To: Adrien Lamothe <alamozzz@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup.

Quoting Adrien Lamothe (alamozzz@yahoo.com):

> I'd like to see Real Networks, Adobe, et. al, actually try to sue
> someone for giving away programs that are freely available to anyone
> over the internet; that would be an entertaining case.

You can set up a test case, easily enough: Just post a public copy of
Acrobat Reader on a Web site of yours, and then drop Adobe's lawyers a
note furnishing the URL, saying you'll be operating that as an
unauthorised download site, and daring them to try to stop you.

They of course _can_: Among the rights reserved by default to copyright
owners is the right of distribution, and thus the right to offer the
work only from authorised sites, or not at all. That's why _granting_
the public the right of redistribution requires a specific licence grant
to that effect, and why there is no such right without such a grant.

> Actually, you are the one who needs to cite an example of a suit
> brought against a consumer for benchmarking a product.

Huh?

I believe you were saying that disallowing software benchmarking via a
product EULA is illegal and unenforceable. I therefore would like to
see a cite of the controlling law (statute or caselaw), since I can't
find any. You must have had some reason to think that; all I did was
ask you to cite that reason.


(I note that you dropped offlist into private e-mail. Therefore, to
avoid violating your privacy, I am continuing in the same medium, even
though I actually strongly prefer for public threads to remain in
public, unless someone has mentioned a compelling reason for privacy.)


Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less --0-1986368777-1136602229=:65538-- From alamozzz@yahoo.com Fri Jan 06 19:41:06 2006 Received: from web31401.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.198.113]:38002) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1Ev4wf-0001eN-TC for ; Fri, 06 Jan 2006 19:41:05 -0800 Received: (qmail 64293 invoked by uid 60001); 7 Jan 2006 03:40:38 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=X6zhS3bynQZL5VCJ98wEEzuQdVxGw3jGDmbIZ9YemwcG9TwItGtIsIr/jTGp0Zb9zh+WlIersapxLeXTh8sRkU2BChTb+wqOLF1iHhPdgFm1PlNdlKfYhihZ/AFmze/XbclGaGAwyfNcT+ZnXZwLipe/eBNGTNTkgBnxpz4La8M= ; Message-ID: <20060107034038.64291.qmail@web31401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.111.59.163] by web31401.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 06 Jan 2006 19:40:38 PST Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 19:40:38 -0800 (PST) From: Adrien Lamothe To: SF Linux Users Group MIME-Version: 1.0 Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of alamozzz@yahoo.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 68.142.198.113 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: alamozzz@yahoo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.3 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_10_20, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=3.1.0 Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-554351602-1136605238=:63894" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 03:41:07 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 4938 Lines: 39 --0-554351602-1136605238=:63894 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> Actually, you are the one who needs to cite an example of a suit >> brought against a consumer for benchmarking a product. >Huh? >I believe you were saying that disallowing software benchmarking via a >product EULA is illegal and unenforceable. I therefore would like to >see a cite of the controlling law (statute or caselaw), since I can't >find any. You must have had some reason to think that; all I did was >ask you to cite that reason. You won't find any statute that says "it is O.K. to benchmark software you have purchased." Let's say I buy some milk at a grocery store, and they make me sign an agreement to the effect that I will not tell other people my opinion of the milk, and also not to send a sample of that milk to a laboratory for analysis. I won't find any statutes that tell me it is O.K. to critique the milk or have it analyzed, because I'm free to do just about anything with the milk, I own it. If the grocery store wants to try enforcing that agreement, good luck to them, they'll get laughed out of court. The Novell situation is identical. Automotive magazines borrow or buy cars so they can test and benchmark them. Reviewers benchmark computer hardware and software almost daily, and publish the results. Benchmarking a product you own is legal, period. While on the subject, this is a good time to mention those mysterious gremlins known as "market forces." By affixing such an onerous condition to their license agreement, Novell will cause users to really question what is going on, and leave a negative impression. Negative impressions can contribute to people taking their business elsewhere. Closely related is the concept of "good will," something most business people don't understand these days (I've been told there was a time when "good will" was valued by businesses, but that may be a myth, related to the myth of the "good old days.") In the open-source software business, I think "good will" is a very important concept, and those who ignore it tend to get left behind (think XFree86, etc.) - Adrien --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP. --0-554351602-1136605238=:63894 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
 >> Actually, you are the one who needs to cite an example of a suit
>> brought against a consumer for benchmarking a product.

>Huh?

>I believe you were saying that disallowing software benchmarking via a
>product EULA is illegal and unenforceable.  I therefore would like to
>see a cite of the controlling law (statute or caselaw), since I can't
>find any.  You must have had some reason to think that; all I did was
>ask you to cite that reason.

You won't find any statute that says "it is O.K. to benchmark software you have purchased." Let's say I buy some milk at a grocery store, and they make me sign an agreement to the effect that I will not tell other people my opinion of the milk, and also not to send a sample of that milk to a laboratory for analysis. I won't find any statutes that tell me it is O.K. to critique the milk or have it analyzed, because I'm free to do just about anything with the milk, I own it. If the grocery store wants to try enforcing that agreement, good luck to them, they'll get laughed out of court. The Novell situation is identical. Automotive magazines borrow or buy cars so they can test and benchmark them. Reviewers benchmark computer hardware and software almost daily, and publish the results. Benchmarking a product you own is legal, period.

While on the subject, this is a good time to mention those mysterious gremlins known as "market forces." By affixing such an onerous condition to their license agreement, Novell will cause users to really question what is going on, and leave a negative impression. Negative impressions can contribute to people taking their business elsewhere. Closely related is the concept of "good will," something most business people don't understand these days (I've been told there was a time when "good will" was valued by businesses, but that may be a myth, related to the myth of the "good old days.") In the open-source software business, I think "good will" is a very important concept, and those who ignore it tend to get left behind (think XFree86, etc.)

- Adrien

Yahoo! Photos
Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP. --0-554351602-1136605238=:63894-- From rick@linuxmafia.com Fri Jan 06 22:18:50 2006 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1Ev7Pe-0002Wu-0L by authid for ; Fri, 06 Jan 2006 22:18:50 -0800 Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 22:18:49 -0800 To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. Message-ID: <20060107061849.GV2513@linuxmafia.com> References: <20060107034038.64291.qmail@web31401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060107034038.64291.qmail@web31401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Do-Not-Run: Yes X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 06:18:51 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 4251 Lines: 86 Quoting Adrien Lamothe (alamozzz@yahoo.com): > >I believe you were saying that disallowing software benchmarking via a > >product EULA is illegal and unenforceable. I therefore would like to > >see a cite of the controlling law (statute or caselaw), since I can't > >find any. You must have had some reason to think that; all I did was > >ask you to cite that reason. > > You won't find any statute that says "it is O.K. to benchmark software > you have purchased." I was hoping you were aware of a civil judgement (in a lawsuit) where a company had attempted to enforce such a provision, asserting the tort of contract breach, but then lost, through some judge declaring them "illegal and unenforceable". > Let's say I buy some milk at a grocery store, and they make me sign an > agreement to the effect that I will not tell other people my opinion of > the milk, and also not to send a sample of that milk to a laboratory for > analysis. I won't find any statutes that tell me it is O.K. to critique > the milk or have it analyzed, because I'm free to do just about anything > with the milk, I own it. Much as you indeed own that milk, there are hundred of years of precedent for attaching strings to contracts: As long as the subject matter of the contract is not itself illegal[1], the courts have allowed competent adults[2] to sign away almost all rights, if they're reckless and don't carefully watch what they agree to.[3] > If the grocery store wants to try enforcing that agreement, good luck > to them, they'll get laughed out of court. The Novell situation is > identical. What I know of business law, this claim is mistaken. People sign contract that limit the scope of their right to speak, all the time, e.g., contracts pursuant to employment. Even my contracting work entails implied covenants of good-faith and fair dealing, according to which I must act to protect my clients' interests. I could get sued for torts if I were to violate those covenants by blabbing about them in public. Therefore (although I'm certainly not a lawyer, and therefore cannot and do not advise people on their particular legal situations), I always advise people in _general terms_ to pay really close attention to what contracts they agree to, and assume they're to be taken seriously except where you know they're toothless for some external reason. > Automotive magazines borrow or buy cars so they can test and benchmark > them. Reviewers benchmark computer hardware and software almost daily, > and publish the results. Benchmarking a product you own is legal, > period. Again, I know of no reason to think this is true, and plenty to think otherwise. It it _were_ true, I expect I'd have found caselaw to that effect, and I found none. > While on the subject, this is a good time to mention those mysterious > gremlins known as "market forces." By affixing such an onerous > condition to their license agreement, Novell will cause users to > really question what is going on, and leave a negative impression. I certainly hope so. Licence terms purporting to ban benchmarking are evil, and really should not be put up with. [1] For example, no contract terms you sign, in an otherwise valid contract, can be forced against you to sell yourself into slavery, or to perform any other illegal act. For example, in California contracts that purport to bar you from your own trade or profession (non-competes) are completely unenforceable by statute, as are proprietary invention agreements to the extent of whatever you create with your own resources on your own time. Although very common, those agreements are deceptive. And yes, I _can_ give you citations of the relevant code sections. [2] Popular misconceptions to the contrary notwithstanding, minors _are_ allowed to enter into contracts, but can elect to unilaterally void any such contracts, if they wish, immediately upon reaching the age of majority. One exception is contracts concerning real estate, which are enforceable even against minors. [3] There are a few safeguards in particular special areas, such as the statutory "cooling off period" following purchase of an automobile, during which you can rescind your acceptance of the sales offer. From jim@well.com Sat Jan 07 11:31:57 2006 Received: from smtp.well.com ([206.80.4.7]:55673) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EvJmn-0006mu-Sz for ; Sat, 07 Jan 2006 11:31:57 -0800 Received: from [192.168.1.101] (dsl081-061-186.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.61.186]) by smtp.well.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k07H11th018287 for ; Sat, 7 Jan 2006 09:01:01 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com Message-Id: <7EEB8CC3-7F9F-11DA-B56D-000A95EA5592@well.com> From: jim stockford Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 09:03:16 -0800 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.87.1, clamav-milter version 0.87 on smtp.well.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of jim@well.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 206.80.4.7 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jim@well.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=4.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-18--567593203 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [sf-lug] Fwd: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies: January 12, 7:30pm (Google) X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 19:31:58 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 4760 Lines: 177 --Apple-Mail-18--567593203 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Interested in the Python programming language? This coming meeting, Thursday 1/12 7:30 PM at Google's campus, is for newbies. Marilyn Davis is an experienced instructor presenting a summary of Python's benefits. After her presentation there'll be a newbie question and answer period. I'm going. If you want a ride to and from SF, let me know (I'm willing, within SF city, to drop you off at your home). jim Begin forwarded message: > From: Aahz > Date: January 7, 2006 7:54:08 AM PST > To: baypiggies@python.org > Cc: Python-List , python-announce@python.org > Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies: January 12, 7:30pm (Google) > > The next meeting of BayPIGgies will be Thurs, January 12 at 7:30pm at > Google, room Tunis. Meet in the lobby of building 43. > > This will be a combo meeting: > > * First Marilyn Davis will practice her "Why Python?" talk -- she's > looking for feedback and suggestions on improving it. > > * We'll fill the rest of the time with a "Newbies Night"; this is your > opportunity to get realtime responses to questions about Python > > > BayPIGgies meetings alternate between IronPort (San Bruno, California) > and Google (Mountain View, California). For more information and > directions, see http://baypiggies.net/ > > > Before the meeting, we sometimes meet at 6pm for dinner. Discussion of > dinner plans is handled on the BayPIGgies mailing list. > > Advance notice: We need speakers for February and later; the February > meeting is currently reserved for PyCon speakers wanting practice, and > the March meeting will probably be a PyCon wrap-up. Please e-mail > baypiggies@python.org if you want to suggest an agenda (or volunteer to > give a presentation). > -- > Aahz (aahz@pythoncraft.com) <*> > http://www.pythoncraft.com/ > > "19. A language that doesn't affect the way you think about > programming, > is not worth knowing." --Alan Perlis > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > --Apple-Mail-18--567593203 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII Interested in the Python programming language? This coming meeting, Thursday 1/12 7:30 PM at Google's campus, is for newbies. Marilyn Davis is an experienced instructor presenting a summary of Python's benefits. After her presentation there'll be a newbie question and answer period. I'm going. If you want a ride to and from SF, let me know (I'm willing, within SF city, to drop you off at your home). jim Begin forwarded message: 0000,0000,0000From: Aahz < 0000,0000,0000Date: January 7, 2006 7:54:08 AM PST 0000,0000,0000To: baypiggies@python.org 0000,0000,0000Cc: Python-List <, python-announce@python.org 0000,0000,0000Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies: January 12, 7:30pm (Google) The next meeting of BayPIGgies will be Thurs, January 12 at 7:30pm at Google, room Tunis. Meet in the lobby of building 43. This will be a combo meeting: * First Marilyn Davis will practice her "Why Python?" talk -- she's looking for feedback and suggestions on improving it. * We'll fill the rest of the time with a "Newbies Night"; this is your opportunity to get realtime responses to questions about Python BayPIGgies meetings alternate between IronPort (San Bruno, California) and Google (Mountain View, California). For more information and directions, see http://baypiggies.net/ Before the meeting, we sometimes meet at 6pm for dinner. Discussion of dinner plans is handled on the BayPIGgies mailing list. Advance notice: We need speakers for February and later; the February meeting is currently reserved for PyCon speakers wanting practice, and the March meeting will probably be a PyCon wrap-up. Please e-mail baypiggies@python.org if you want to suggest an agenda (or volunteer to give a presentation). -- Aahz (aahz@pythoncraft.com) <<*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "19. A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing." --Alan Perlis _______________________________________________ Baypiggies mailing list Baypiggies@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies --Apple-Mail-18--567593203-- From jim@well.com Mon Jan 09 08:14:42 2006 Received: from smtp.well.com ([206.80.4.7]:51592) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EvzfJ-0004UL-Ju for ; Mon, 09 Jan 2006 08:14:41 -0800 Received: from [192.168.1.101] (dsl081-061-186.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.61.186]) by smtp.well.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k09GEVL4015768 for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 08:14:32 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Message-Id: <56070D7A-812B-11DA-B56D-000A95EA5592@well.com> To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com From: jim stockford Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 08:16:48 -0800 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.87.1, clamav-milter version 0.87 on smtp.well.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of jim@well.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 206.80.4.7 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jim@well.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=4.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [sf-lug] sf-lug meeting tonight at javacat X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 16:14:42 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 109 Lines: 8 Monday, January 16, at the Javacat on Geary at 20th, from 6:00 till 8:00 PM (or so). hope to see you, jim From alamozzz@yahoo.com Mon Jan 09 21:22:54 2006 Received: from web31414.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.198.126]:46027) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EwBxu-0000g3-Pj for ; Mon, 09 Jan 2006 21:22:53 -0800 Received: (qmail 63284 invoked by uid 60001); 10 Jan 2006 05:22:30 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=FSjvT9mt2SBEDU/Kbr8xKCPHLA9oY7T1MNoedMRas33PDkU3HyNWAH4O12Np8zHAzfmaRchQU5Jq/bGYpuwGb1UQ2eTN5cVsIWeRc5UzLsRojFMXLGUgXJ7ORRACOBItCm01XzKqsgR8qzNL43okUQRCOAkb8tk33Ui3wcWS//E= ; Message-ID: <20060110052230.63282.qmail@web31414.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [70.130.100.167] by web31414.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 09 Jan 2006 21:22:30 PST Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 21:22:30 -0800 (PST) From: Adrien Lamothe To: SF Linux Users Group MIME-Version: 1.0 Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of alamozzz@yahoo.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 68.142.198.126 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: alamozzz@yahoo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=4.0 tests=BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=3.1.0 Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1098806713-1136870550=:61866" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 05:22:55 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 3286 Lines: 44 --0-1098806713-1136870550=:61866 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Much as you indeed own that milk, there are hundred of years of >precedent for attaching strings to contracts: As long as the subject >matter of the contract is not itself illegal[1], the courts have allowed >competent adults[2] to sign away almost all rights, if they're reckless >and don't carefully watch what they agree to.[3] Actually, just the opposite usually happens. Courts will not allow people to sign away their rights. That is why most contracts contain what is called a "severability" clause. A severability clause states to the effect that "in the event any portion of this contract is deemed illegal, void or unenforceable, such judgement does not effect the remaining portions of this contract, and such portions remain in full effect." Of course, in uncertain cases (grey areas) it all comes down to the judge and whatever personal bias the judge has (and can get away with while appearing to be impartial.) One of the basic principles of contract law is to write a contract that is as outrageous as possible, claiming rights beyond what is legal or reasonable, the rationale being that by exceeding the limits you will therefore be fully protected up to the limits allowed by law. - Adrien --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos – Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover Photo Books. You design it and we’ll bind it! --0-1098806713-1136870550=:61866 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>Much as you indeed own that milk, there are hundred of years of
>precedent for attaching strings to contracts:  As long as the subject
>matter of the contract is not itself illegal[1], the courts have allowed
>competent adults[2] to sign away almost all rights, if they're reckless
>and don't carefully watch what they agree to.[3]

Actually, just the opposite usually happens. Courts will not allow people
to sign away their rights. That is why most contracts contain what is
called a "severability" clause. A severability clause states to the effect
that "in the event any portion of this contract is deemed illegal, void or
unenforceable, such judgement does not effect the remaining portions
of this contract, and such portions remain in full effect."

Of course, in uncertain cases (grey areas) it all comes down to the judge and
whatever personal bias the judge has (and can get away with while
appearing to be impartial.)

One of the basic principles of contract law is to write a contract that is
as outrageous as possible, claiming rights beyond what is legal or
reasonable, the rationale being that by exceeding the limits you will
therefore be fully protected up to the limits allowed by law.

- Adrien

Yahoo! Photos – Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover
Photo Books. You design it and we’ll bind it! --0-1098806713-1136870550=:61866-- From rick@linuxmafia.com Mon Jan 09 21:41:37 2006 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EwCGH-0000j3-03 by authid for ; Mon, 09 Jan 2006 21:41:37 -0800 Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 21:41:36 -0800 To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. Message-ID: <20060110054136.GA32275@linuxmafia.com> References: <20060110052230.63282.qmail@web31414.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060110052230.63282.qmail@web31414.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Do-Not-Run: Yes X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 05:41:38 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2376 Lines: 49 Quoting Adrien Lamothe (alamozzz@yahoo.com): > Actually, just the opposite usually happens. Courts will not allow people > to sign away their rights. That is why most contracts contain what is ^^^^^^^^^^^ > called a "severability" clause. Whoa, there. Not so fast, pard'. Your fallacy lies in the underlined text, examined below. > A severability clause states to the effect that "in the event any > portion of this contract is deemed illegal, void or unenforceable, > such judgement does not effect the remaining portions of this > contract, and such portions remain in full effect." Contracts _do_ indeed tend to have severability clauses, but it's NOT because the courts don't allow people to sign away their rights: It's so that, if any clause, for any reason, gets voided (e.g., patent violation, violation of state regulations and statutes, etc.), it's nonetheless likely the court will allow the others to still be enforced -- by signalling _to_ the court that the parties thus intend and wish. > One of the basic principles of contract law is to write a contract > that is as outrageous as possible, claiming rights beyond what is > legal or reasonable, the rationale being that by exceeding the limits > you will therefore be fully protected up to the limits allowed by law. That is (all too often) true. But what is _not_ true is your original claim that disallowing benchmarking via a product licence is illegal and unenforceable -- nor your current, broader claim that the courts don't allow people to sign away their rights. You have talked around those claims, and cited legal mechanisms that aren't actually relevant to them, but you have not supported them. In fact -- since you mention it -- ANY contract you sign, by definition of the term "contract", inherently gives up (signs away) some right you already had going in. (Note that property, be it tangible, abstract, real estate, or other, _is_ a bundle of rights.) That deliberate foregoing of just rights that you already have in hand is what constitutes the required element of "consideration", without which no contract can ever be formed in the first place. In case anyone is curious, and with the previously cited proviso that IANAL, here are some old notes from business law class: "Contract Elements" on http://linuxmafia.com/kb/Licensing_and_Law/ From alamozzz@yahoo.com Wed Jan 11 10:16:54 2006 Received: from web31409.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.198.121]:31029) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EwkWS-0007YN-9f for ; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 10:16:53 -0800 Received: (qmail 41366 invoked by uid 60001); 11 Jan 2006 18:16:27 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=4UwgsllM4DdL7T5ObJlfpSXf+Ynej26wdbTnGWhRgDJeUTZC1p9nRnvOWwtpA56kdYZ/bm8OP9yMv3TcZldY4FhS9tAesSywnDK4kiVwCdE6NVPETT860+u3lC1JkVP+npg2F6iBN4vkAzk880kax18cozJU9NWub/YwkLBTPr4= ; Message-ID: <20060111181627.41364.qmail@web31409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.111.59.163] by web31409.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 10:16:27 PST Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 10:16:27 -0800 (PST) From: Adrien Lamothe To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com In-Reply-To: <20060107061849.GV2513@linuxmafia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of alamozzz@yahoo.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 68.142.198.121 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: alamozzz@yahoo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=3.1.0 Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1392914400-1137003387=:41327" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 18:16:54 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2150 Lines: 36 --0-1392914400-1137003387=:41327 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Rick Moen: >Again, I know of no reason to think this is true, and plenty to think >otherwise. It it _were_ true, I expect I'd have found caselaw to that >effect, and I found none. Not finding any case law is a good indication those types of clauses are not enforceable, else there would surely be case law on the subject. But the actual legal ramifications of Novell's license (which neither of us really understands in purely legal terms) are not as important as the business effect such licensing will have on Novell. Draconian licensing will alienate their customers, many of whom are likely looking to the exits anyway in light of recent "developments" at Novell. - Adrien --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP. --0-1392914400-1137003387=:41327 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Rick Moen:

>Again, I know of no reason to think this is true, and plenty to think
>otherwise.  It it _were_ true, I expect I'd have found caselaw to that
>effect, and I found none.

Not finding any case law is a good indication those types of clauses
are not enforceable, else there would surely be case law on the subject.

But the actual legal ramifications of Novell's license (which neither of us
really understands in purely legal terms) are not as important as the
business effect such licensing will have on Novell. Draconian licensing
will alienate their customers, many of whom are likely looking to the
exits anyway in light of recent "developments" at Novell.

- Adrien

Yahoo! Photos
Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP. --0-1392914400-1137003387=:41327-- From alamozzz@yahoo.com Wed Jan 11 11:00:04 2006 Received: from web31403.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.198.115]:31358) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EwlBv-0007h6-IO for ; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 11:00:04 -0800 Received: (qmail 33666 invoked by uid 60001); 11 Jan 2006 18:59:18 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=X1pL5a8+RczehdwJdTGCip9X56BFHw7NBUq7NXPAAhKREQNKqLuV7FgfhntBq8mD0F8jP/EA5wwYOp2BWu7tbMQjJt5f93MPdqZL7v2tWnYDG6b/p4UCXKa7m2b4N/Lz/Z3wxlCEBCqUsEU+RXOqTONIzILWyLuVwNa/V2+W3v8= ; Message-ID: <20060111185918.33664.qmail@web31403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.111.59.163] by web31403.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 10:59:18 PST Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 10:59:18 -0800 (PST) From: Adrien Lamothe To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com In-Reply-To: <20060110054136.GA32275@linuxmafia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of alamozzz@yahoo.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 68.142.198.115 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: alamozzz@yahoo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=3.1.0 Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1298253644-1137005958=:33303" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 19:00:05 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 6909 Lines: 84 --0-1298253644-1137005958=:33303 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting Rick Moen (rick@linuxmafia.com): >Contracts _do_ indeed tend to have severability clauses, but it's NOT >because the courts don't allow people to sign away their rights: It's >so that, if any clause, for any reason, gets voided (e.g., patent ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >violation, violation of state regulations and statutes, etc.), it's >nonetheless likely the court will allow the others to still be enforced >-- by signalling _to_ the court that the parties thus intend and wish. Including the reason that the clause is illegal. We agree on this point. >That is (all too often) true. But what is _not_ true is your original >claim that disallowing benchmarking via a product licence is illegal and ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >unenforceable -- nor your current, broader claim that the courts don't >allow people to sign away their rights. You have talked around those ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >claims, and cited legal mechanisms that aren't actually relevant to >them, but you have not supported them. A contract is indeed an instrument that, in some instances, requires one or more parties to sign away rights. When it comes to purchasing a product, one right that a court is almost certain not to violate is a consumer's right to enjoy use of the product in a manner consistent with normal useage. In the world of computer operating systems, it is normal, and expected, for a consumer to benchmark the operating system. Benchmarking the operating system, especially for execution of software important to the customer, is part of the normal operational procedure inherent in normal useage of the product. The only apparent reason a software manufacturer would not want a customer to benchmark an operating system, is fear of competition. I'm sorry, but fear of competition just doesn't cut the mustard in a court of law, especially when it infringes on a customer's right to normal useage of their property. I haven't "talked around" anything, apparently you just haven't considered what has been said. That's O.K., it happens. >In fact -- since you mention it -- ANY contract you sign, by definition >of the term "contract", inherently gives up (signs away) some right you ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >already had going in. (Note that property, be it tangible, abstract, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >real estate, or other, _is_ a bundle of rights.) That deliberate >foregoing of just rights that you already have in hand is what >constitutes the required element of "consideration", without which no >contract can ever be formed in the first place. Untrue. Cheers, Adrien "I'm not O.K., you're not O.K., but that's O.K." --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP. --0-1298253644-1137005958=:33303 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Quoting Rick Moen (rick@linuxmafia.com):

>Contracts _do_ indeed tend to have severability clauses, but it's NOT
>because the courts don't allow people to sign away their rights:  It's
>so that, if any clause, for any reason, gets voided (e.g., patent
                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>violation, violation of state regulations and statutes, etc.), it's
>nonetheless likely the court will allow the others to still be enforced
>-- by signalling _to_ the court that the parties thus intend and wish.

Including the reason that the clause is illegal. We agree on this point.


>That is (all too often) true.  But what is _not_ true is your original
>claim that disallowing benchmarking via a product licence is illegal and
            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>unenforceable -- nor your current, broader claim that the courts don't
>allow people to sign away their rights.  You have talked around those
                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>claims, and cited legal mechanisms that aren't actually relevant to
>them, but you have not supported them.

A contract is indeed an instrument that, in some instances, requires one
or more parties to sign away rights. When it comes to purchasing a product,
one right that a court is almost certain not to violate is a consumer's
right to enjoy use of the product in a manner consistent with normal useage.
In the world of computer operating systems, it is normal, and expected, for
a consumer to benchmark the operating system. Benchmarking the operating
system, especially for execution of software important to the customer,
is part of the normal operational procedure inherent in normal useage of
the product.

The only apparent reason a software manufacturer would not want a customer
to benchmark an operating system, is fear of competition. I'm sorry, but
fear of competition just doesn't cut the mustard in a court of law, especially
when it infringes on a customer's right to normal useage of their property.

I haven't "talked around" anything, apparently you just haven't considered
what has been said. That's O.K., it happens.


>In fact -- since you mention it -- ANY contract you sign, by definition
>of the term "contract", inherently gives up (signs away) some right you
                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>already had going in.  (Note that property, be it tangible, abstract,
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>real estate, or other, _is_ a bundle of rights.)  That deliberate
>foregoing of just rights that you already have in hand is what
>constitutes the required element of "consideration", without which no
>contract can ever be formed in the first place.

Untrue.


Cheers,

Adrien

"I'm not O.K., you're not O.K., but that's O.K."


Yahoo! Photos
Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP. --0-1298253644-1137005958=:33303-- From alamozzz@yahoo.com Wed Jan 11 12:13:17 2006 Received: from web31415.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.198.127]:23275) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EwmJy-0008Jc-4E for ; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 12:13:16 -0800 Received: (qmail 72085 invoked by uid 60001); 11 Jan 2006 20:11:41 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=zkX8HlOG95i6pgT9W8vaCcuFljZ59U6C0QzmitPRNTNMkYWCRmIZkReISvPdewG2uUC2jpMhmToA7EIXJDu2yCT5ONBb/+sInOwWWHyQJapfktRe4LmyelH0TaBJ6omja29l25UNDR0aJ20t9m3rxDRsVhW1tPGMo6i94NLyYw4= ; Message-ID: <20060111201141.72083.qmail@web31415.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.111.59.163] by web31415.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 12:11:41 PST Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 12:11:41 -0800 (PST) From: Adrien Lamothe To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com In-Reply-To: <0A693854-7E07-11DA-B56D-000A95EA5592@well.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of alamozzz@yahoo.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 68.142.198.127 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: alamozzz@yahoo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE, HTML_NONELEMENT_40_50 autolearn=ham version=3.1.0 Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Fwd: Linux happenings in '06 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-130625597-1137010301=:67457" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 20:13:17 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 21135 Lines: 283 --0-130625597-1137010301=:67457 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Jim, Thanks for posting the events list, I've already found it useful. Wasn't able to make it to the meeting the other night, would have liked to. Adrien jim stockford wrote: The forwarded email below includes a list of significant linux developments expected in 2006, including notably (to me): * XEN inclusion in Fedora Core 5 * PalmSource Linux offering * Open Source Development Lab's Project ...Portland (targets the desktop) * Red Hat Enterprise Linux 5 * IBM's continued promotion of Open Data ...Formats (Peter Quinn RIP). Begin forwarded message: > From: "NW on Linux" > Date: January 5, 2006 12:20:00 AM PST > To: jim@well.com > Subject: Linux happenings in '06 > Reply-To: Linux Help > > NETWORK WORLD NEWSLETTER: PHIL HOCHMUTH ON LINUX > 01/02/06 > Today's focus: Linux happenings in '06 > > Dear jim@well.com, > > In this issue: > > * Plan your year around Linux > * Links related to Linux > * Featured reader resource > _______________________________________________________________ > This newsletter is sponsored by Akamai > Accelerating Web-based Applications: Managed Services Offer > Benefits Without Infrastructure Headaches > > Look at most companies and you'll find one thing in common, a > move to Web-enable mission critical applications. A new breed of > managed services, aimed directly at accelerating performance and > availability of Web-based applications, helps companies attain > their goals of profit and growth - no matter how far or wide the > audience they are trying to reach. Learn how Web-based > applications can allow your company to boost the bottom line. > Download this Network World Special Report today! > http://www.fattail.com/redir/redirect.asp?CID=123961 > _______________________________________________________________ > NETWORK WORLD PRESENTS THE ENTERPRISE ALL STARS > > NWW honors 50 companies and their groundbreaking network > projects. Companies who have projects so stellar they are > examples for all. Read about the winners by technology and by > industry, how they demonstrated exceptional use of technology, > and how smart use of technology is smart business. Click here > to read the Enterprise All-Star Special Issue: > http://www.fattail.com/redir/redirect.asp?CID=124036 > _______________________________________________________________ > > Today's focus: Linux happenings in '06 > > By Phil Hochmuth > > As we return to work this first week of 2006, Linux users with > the post-holiday blahs, cabin fever or seasonal affective > disorder should be glad to know there is a lot to look forward > to this year. > > Here is a rundown of expected Linux happenings in 2006. > > February > > Users of Red Hat's free Fedora Core operating system will get an > upgrade when Version 5 of the software is released. The new code > will include Xen virtualization software - a precursor of more > to come from Red Hat in '06 - as well as an SELinux security > package and a LDAP directory administration tool. > > March > > Expect to see Novell's SuSE Linux Enterprise Server 10 (SLES) > released around the time of its BrainShare conference in Salt > Lake City. Improved system management features, and server > virtualization management. > > April > > LinuxWorld Expo organizers decided last year's February show in > Boston might have been a little to chilly. The 2006 show, > running April 3-6, will take place at a larger venue as well - > the new Boston Convention & Exhibition Center. > > May/June > > Expect PalmSource to make its first Linux offering around the > end of the first half of the year. Palm OS for Linux will give > Palm devices a broader set of hardware and application options > as Linux becomes a more popular platform for handheld computing. > > June/July > > The Open Source Development Lab is expected to have the first > release of its Project Portland out by the beginning of the > summer. The desktop-focused Linux effort sets common application > criteria for personal Linux PC software and includes input from > Adobe Systems, AMD, Eclipse, FSG, Gnome, IBM, Intel, KDE, > Mozilla, Nokia, OpenOffice, Red Hat and others. > > August > > LinuxWorld Expo takes place for the seventh year at the Moscone > Center in San Francisco. At LinuxWorld, expect to hear from > Novell again, as it launches an update to its Open Enterprise > Server, which includes both its NetWare and SuSE Linux operating > system kernels. > > September/October > > Red Hat Enterprise Linux 5 is expected to launch at the > beginning of the fall. The new software will wrap in the Xen > virtualization software for servers, as well as a new "Stateless > Linux" feature, allowing thin clients to run a full desktop > client environment hosted on a RHEL 5 server. > > November/December > > IBM is expected to move more aggressively towards Open Data > Formats (ODF), also known as the OpenDocument format. Documents > created in IBM applications - such as its Lotus suite - will use > a standard, open source file format, allowing the documents to > be viewed by users who do not have the originating software. > > The top 10 most-read stories of 2005 > > 1. Mad as hell, switching to Mac > > 2. How to solve Windows system crashes in minutes > > 3. McAfee, Omniquad top anti-spyware test > > 4. This net screams > > 5. Networking skills are still hot > > 6. The 2005 salary survey > > 7. Cracking the wireless security code > > 8. 10 ways to stop spyware > > 9. VoIP analysis tools tested > > 10. Shattered Mac illusions > > > _______________________________________________________________ > To contact: Phil Hochmuth > > Phil Hochmuth is a Network World Senior Editor and a former > systems integrator. You can reach him at > . > _______________________________________________________________ > This newsletter is sponsored by Akamai > Accelerating Web-based Applications: Managed Services Offer > Benefits Without Infrastructure Headaches > > Look at most companies and you'll find one thing in common, a > move to Web-enable mission critical applications. A new breed of > managed services, aimed directly at accelerating performance and > availability of Web-based applications, helps companies attain > their goals of profit and growth - no matter how far or wide the > audience they are trying to reach. Learn how Web-based > applications can allow your company to boost the bottom line. > Download this Network World Special Report today! > http://www.fattail.com/redir/redirect.asp?CID=123960 > _______________________________________________________________ > ARCHIVE LINKS > > Breaking Linux news from Network World and around the 'Net, > updated daily: http://www.networkworld.com/topics/linux.html > Archive of the Linux newsletter: > http://www.networkworld.com/newsletters/linux/index.html > _______________________________________________________________ > WEBCAST: Optimize your WAN Case studies from the real world. > > Wide area Data Services (WDS) technology has been deployed > across many industries in order to dramatically enhance WAN > performance. In this webcast, two organizations discuss their > own results and ROI: Applications running 5 to 100 times faster > :: Bandwidth utilization reduced by 60% to 95% :: ROI in less > than two months. > http://www.fattail.com/redir/redirect.asp?CID=123724 > _______________________________________________________________ > FEATURED READER RESOURCE > > WHO'S MANAGING YOUR HOME NETWORK? > > You probably are - and you're probably managing your neighbors' > home networks too. Get the latest in home networking devices & > security solutions and stay current on home network fun - > streaming video wirelessly on your TV for example - by getting > Network Life from Network World. Sign up for this no charge > webzine today: > > > _______________________________________________________________ > May We Send You a Free Print Subscription? > You've got the technology snapshot of your choice delivered > at your fingertips each day. Now, extend your knowledge by > receiving 51 FREE issues to our print publication. Apply > today at http://www.subscribenw.com/nl2 > > International subscribers click here: > http://nww1.com/go/circ_promo.html > _______________________________________________________________ > SUBSCRIPTION SERVICES > > To subscribe or unsubscribe to any Network World e-mail > newsletters, go to: > > > To change your e-mail address, go to: > > > Subscription questions? Contact Customer Service by replying to > this message. > > This message was sent to: jim@well.com > Please use this address when modifying your subscription. > _______________________________________________________________ > > Have editorial comments? Write Jeff Caruso, Newsletter Editor, > at: > > Inquiries to: NL Customer Service, Network World, Inc., 118 > Turnpike Road, Southborough, MA 01772 > > For advertising information, write Susan Cardoza, Associate > Publisher Online, at: > > Copyright Network World, Inc., 2006 > _______________________________________________ sf-lug mailing list sf-lug@linuxmafia.com http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos – Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover Photo Books. You design it and we’ll bind it! --0-130625597-1137010301=:67457 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hi Jim,

Thanks for posting the events list, I've already found it useful. Wasn't able to make it to the meeting the other night, would have liked to.

Adrien


jim stockford <jim@well.com> wrote:
The forwarded email below includes a list of
significant linux developments expected in
2006, including notably (to me):
* XEN inclusion in Fedora Core 5
* PalmSource Linux offering
* Open Source Development Lab's Project
...Portland (targets the desktop)
* Red Hat Enterprise Linux 5
* IBM's continued promotion of Open Data
...Formats (Peter Quinn RIP).


Begin forwarded message:

> From: "NW on Linux"
> Date: January 5, 2006 12:20:00 AM PST
> To: jim@well.com
> Subject: Linux happenings in '06
> Reply-To: Linux Help
>
> NETWORK WORLD NEWSLETTER: PHIL HOCHMUTH ON LINUX
> 01/02/06
> Today's focus: Linux happenings in '06
>
> Dear jim@well.com,
>
> In this issue:
>
> * Plan your year around Linux
> * Links related to Linux
> * Featured reader resource
> _______________________________________________________________
> This newsletter is sponsored by Akamai
> Accelerating Web-based Applications: Managed Services Offer
> Benefits Without Infrastructure Headaches
>
> Look at most companies and you'll find one thing in common, a
> move to Web-enable mission critical applications. A new breed of
> managed services, aimed directly at accelerating performance and
> availability of Web-based applications, helps companies attain
> their goals of profit and growth - no matter how far or wide the
> audience they are trying to reach. Learn how Web-based
> applications can allow your company to boost the bottom line.
> Download this Network World Special Report today!
> http://www.fattail.com/redir/redirect.asp?CID=123961
> _______________________________________________________________
> NETWORK WORLD PRESENTS THE ENTERPRISE ALL STARS
>
> NWW honors 50 companies and their groundbreaking network
> projects. Companies who have projects so stellar they are
> examples for all. Read about the winners by technology and by
> industry, how they demonstrated exceptional use of technology,
> and how smart use of technology is smart business. Click here
> to read the Enterprise All-Star Special Issue:
> http://www.fattail.com/redir/redirect.asp?CID=124036
> _______________________________________________________________
>
> Today's focus: Linux happenings in '06
>
> By Phil Hochmuth
>
> As we return to work this first week of 2006, Linux users with
> the post-holiday blahs, cabin fever or seasonal affective
> disorder should be glad to know there is a lot to look forward
> to this year.
>
> Here is a rundown of expected Linux happenings in 2006.
>
> February
>
> Users of Red Hat's free Fedora Core operating system will get an
> upgrade when Version 5 of the software is released. The new code
> will include Xen virtualization software - a precursor of more
> to come from Red Hat in '06 - as well as an SELinux security
> package and a LDAP directory administration tool.
>
> March
>
> Expect to see Novell's SuSE Linux Enterprise Server 10 (SLES)
> released around the time of its BrainShare conference in Salt
> Lake City. Improved system management features, and server
> virtualization management.
>
> April
>
> LinuxWorld Expo organizers decided last year's February show in
> Boston might have been a little to chilly. The 2006 show,
> running April 3-6, will take place at a larger venue as well -
> the new Boston Convention & Exhibition Center.
>
> May/June
>
> Expect PalmSource to make its first Linux offering around the
> end of the first half of the year. Palm OS for Linux will give
> Palm devices a broader set of hardware and application options
> as Linux becomes a more popular platform for handheld computing.
>
> June/July
>
> The Open Source Development Lab is expected to have the first
> release of its Project Portland out by the beginning of the
> summer. The desktop-focused Linux effort sets common application
> criteria for personal Linux PC software and includes input from
> Adobe Systems, AMD, Eclipse, FSG, Gnome, IBM, Intel, KDE,
> Mozilla, Nokia, OpenOffice, Red Hat and others.
>
> August
>
> LinuxWorld Expo takes place for the seventh year at the Moscone
> Center in San Francisco. At LinuxWorld, expect to hear from
> Novell again, as it launches an update to its Open Enterprise
> Server, which includes both its NetWare and SuSE Linux operating
> system kernels.
>
> September/October
>
> Red Hat Enterprise Linux 5 is expected to launch at the
> beginning of the fall. The new software will wrap in the Xen
> virtualization software for servers, as well as a new "Stateless
> Linux" feature, allowing thin clients to run a full desktop
> client environment hosted on a RHEL 5 server.
>
> November/December
>
> IBM is expected to move more aggressively towards Open Data
> Formats (ODF), also known as the OpenDocument format. Documents
> created in IBM applications - such as its Lotus suite - will use
> a standard, open source file format, allowing the documents to
> be viewed by users who do not have the originating software.
>
> The top 10 most-read stories of 2005
>
> 1. Mad as hell, switching to Mac
>
> 2. How to solve Windows system crashes in minutes
>
> 3. McAfee, Omniquad top anti-spyware test
>
> 4. This net screams
>
> 5. Networking skills are still hot
>
> 6. The 2005 salary survey
>
> 7. Cracking the wireless security code
>
> 8. 10 ways to stop spyware
>
> 9. VoIP analysis tools tested
>
> 10. Shattered Mac illusions
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> To contact: Phil Hochmuth
>
> Phil Hochmuth is a Network World Senior Editor and a former
> systems integrator. You can reach him at
> .
> _______________________________________________________________
> This newsletter is sponsored by Akamai
> Accelerating Web-based Applications: Managed Services Offer
> Benefits Without Infrastructure Headaches
>
> Look at most companies and you'll find one thing in common, a
> move to Web-enable mission critical applications. A new breed of
> managed services, aimed directly at accelerating performance and
> availability of Web-based applications, helps companies attain
> their goals of profit and growth - no matter how far or wide the
> audience they are trying to reach. Learn how Web-based
> applications can allow your company to boost the bottom line.
> Download this Network World Special Report today!
> http://www.fattail.com/redir/redirect.asp?CID=123960
> _______________________________________________________________
> ARCHIVE LINKS
>
> Breaking Linux news from Network World and around the 'Net,
> updated daily: http://www.networkworld.com/topics/linux.html
> Archive of the Linux newsletter:
> http://www.networkworld.com/newsletters/linux/index.html
> _______________________________________________________________
> WEBCAST: Optimize your WAN Case studies from the real world.
>
> Wide area Data Services (WDS) technology has been deployed
> across many industries in order to dramatically enhance WAN
> performance. In this webcast, two organizations discuss their
> own results and ROI: Applications running 5 to 100 times faster
> :: Bandwidth utilization reduced by 60% to 95% :: ROI in less
> than two months.
> http://www.fattail.com/redir/redirect.asp?CID=123724
> _______________________________________________________________
> FEATURED READER RESOURCE
>
> WHO'S MANAGING YOUR HOME NETWORK?
>
> You probably are - and you're probably managing your neighbors'
> home networks too. Get the latest in home networking devices &
> security solutions and stay current on home network fun -
> streaming video wirelessly on your TV for example - by getting
> Network Life from Network World. Sign up for this no charge
> webzine today:
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> May We Send You a Free Print Subscription?
> You've got the technology snapshot of your choice delivered
> at your fingertips each day. Now, extend your knowledge by
> receiving 51 FREE issues to our print publication. Apply
> today at http://www.subscribenw.com/nl2
>
> International subscribers click here:
> http://nww1.com/go/circ_promo.html
> _______________________________________________________________
> SUBSCRIPTION SERVICES
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe to any Network World e-mail
> newsletters, go to:
>
>
> To change your e-mail address, go to:
>
>
> Subscription questions? Contact Customer Service by replying to
> this message.
>
> This message was sent to: jim@well.com
> Please use this address when modifying your subscription.
> _______________________________________________________________
>
> Have editorial comments? Write Jeff Caruso, Newsletter Editor,
> at:
>
> Inquiries to: NL Customer Service, Network World, Inc., 118
> Turnpike Road, Southborough, MA 01772
>
> For advertising information, write Susan Cardoza, Associate
> Publisher Online, at:
>
> Copyright Network World, Inc., 2006
>
_______________________________________________
sf-lug mailing list
sf-lug@linuxmafia.com
http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/sf-lug

Yahoo! Photos – Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover
Photo Books. You design it and we’ll bind it! --0-130625597-1137010301=:67457-- From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Jan 11 14:47:15 2006 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EwokM-0000ng-KY by authid for ; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 14:47:14 -0800 Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 14:47:13 -0800 To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. Message-ID: <20060111224713.GD32275@linuxmafia.com> References: <20060107061849.GV2513@linuxmafia.com> <20060111181627.41364.qmail@web31409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060111181627.41364.qmail@web31409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Do-Not-Run: Yes X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 22:47:15 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1217 Lines: 27 Quoting Adrien Lamothe (alamozzz@yahoo.com): > Not finding any case law is a good indication those types of clauses > are not enforceable, else there would surely be case law on the subject. No, it's really not. You don't find any caselaw stating that it's lawful for employers to demand that their employees not have conflicting personal businesses on the side, for example, because it's a settled point of law that you can sign away that right -- as you can practically any other -- in a contract. Which you may recall was my point. > But the actual legal ramifications of Novell's license (which neither > of us really understands in purely legal terms).... You're welcome to speak for yourself, but I'm not only a longtime student of business law, but also believe I know this area of it pretty well. In part, this was incidentally to my passing of the CPA exam in 1986, which of course doesn't require one to be a attorney but does entail a fair knowledge of some parts relevant to business. (Also, having front-row seats throughout my teenage years for a negligence suit against Boeing kind of drove home the law's importance, while also making me really determined to avoid _being_ a lawyer. ;-> ) From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Jan 11 14:53:33 2006 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EwoqR-0000ph-BZ by authid for ; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 14:53:31 -0800 Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 14:53:30 -0800 To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. Message-ID: <20060111225329.GE32275@linuxmafia.com> References: <20060110054136.GA32275@linuxmafia.com> <20060111185918.33664.qmail@web31403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060111185918.33664.qmail@web31403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Do-Not-Run: Yes X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 22:53:33 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 986 Lines: 24 Quoting Adrien Lamothe (alamozzz@yahoo.com): > Including the reason that the clause is illegal. We agree on this point. If it _were_ illegal, yes. My mom's folks in Kansas used to say "If the hoptoad had wings, it wouldn't bump it's bottom on the prairie." (But hoptoad are wingless, that being the point.) > A contract is indeed an instrument that, in some instances, requires one > or more parties to sign away rights. When it comes to purchasing a product, > one right that a court is almost certain not to violate is a consumer's > right to enjoy use of the product in a manner consistent with normal useage. You're welcome to support this via cites (or anything else moderately relevant), and to establish that benchmarking is "normal usage" within the meaning of your phrase, any year, now. Adrien, your reasoning has been circular. You really should stop that. -- Cheers, Rick Moen Recidite, plebes! Gero rem Imperialem! rick@linuxmafia.com From jim@well.com Wed Jan 11 20:20:43 2006 Received: from smtp.well.com ([206.80.4.7]:51481) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1EwtwW-000346-0b for ; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 20:20:42 -0800 Received: from [192.168.1.101] (dsl081-061-186.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.61.186]) by smtp.well.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k0C4JEt7021137 for ; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 20:20:02 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com Message-Id: <07695C62-8323-11DA-B56D-000A95EA5592@well.com> From: jim stockford Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 20:22:23 -0800 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.88, clamav-milter version 0.87 on smtp.well.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of jim@well.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 206.80.4.7 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jim@well.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-34--181246648 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [sf-lug] Fwd: Job Posting: Looking for GNU/Linux...Level 2 Tech support/ Hardware product development. System/Network Administrator/ X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 04:20:43 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 5274 Lines: 172 --Apple-Mail-34--181246648 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Begin forwarded message: > From: Youhan Mubaraki > Date: January 11, 2006 4:58:54 PM PST > To: jim@well.com > Subject: Job Posting: Looking for GNU/Linux...Level 2 Tech support/ > Hardware product development. System/Network Administrator/ > > > GNU/Linux System/Network Administrator/ Level 2 Tech support/ Hardware > product development. > > GNU/Linux Systems programmer > > GNU/Linux Kernel Hacker > > GNU/Linux HPC/Clustering (desirable but not necessary) > Most important is the person's ability to do level 2 Tech support and > help with Product development and marketing. We are looking for a > candidate that is willing to talk to vendors out there, and is capable > of developing the latest and greatest in hardware platforms, someone > who can develop new technology by talking to technologist and figuring > out how to make it all work. He should also have the capability to > work on large clusters(not required but desirable & the right > candidate will get the opportunity to learn as well), have knowledge > on all types of Open Source software and applications like OSCAR and > ROCKS, be able load and tweak for performance optimization all flavors > of Free Operating systems like CentOS, Fedora, Redhat, Suse, Debian, > Free BSD etc. The right candidate should also have Network > Administration experience with Linux and have through understanding of > the kernel(important). Experience with Intel and AMD 64 Bit hardware > very important. If you don't possess a few of the knowledge > requirements but are willing to learn its may be OK, we are flexible > and we can discuss your resume. > > Mazda Technologies works with top tier enterprise customers and the > Government DOE labs, this experience could be really enhance the right > candidates resume. Mazda Technologies is a fun and flexible > environment and with the right candidate we are willing to consider a > candidate that wants to work part time as well. > > Please call me for details if you have specific questions. You can > email me or call me at 925 699 4700 or 510 440 8988 ext 108 if you or > someone you know is Interested in this position. > Thank you > Youhan Mubaraki > > Mazda Technologies > www.mazdatechnologies.com > 48511 Warm Springs Blvd > STE 204 > Fremont CA 94539 > > Tel # 510 440 8988 ext 108 > Cell # 925 699 4700 > Fax # 510 405 8988 > Toll Free 1 888 510 8988 > > > > --Apple-Mail-34--181246648 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII Begin forwarded message: 0000,0000,0000From: Youhan Mubaraki < 0000,0000,0000Date: January 11, 2006 4:58:54 PM PST 0000,0000,0000To: jim@well.com 0000,0000,0000Subject: Job Posting: Looking for GNU/Linux...Level 2 Tech support/ Hardware product development. System/Network Administrator/ GNU/Linux System/Network Administrator/ Level 2 Tech support/ Hardware product development. GNU/Linux Systems programmer GNU/Linux Kernel Hacker GNU/Linux HPC/Clustering (desirable but not necessary) Most important is the person's ability to do level 2 Tech support and help with Product development and marketing. We are looking for a candidate that is willing to talk to vendors out there, and is capable of developing the latest and greatest in hardware platforms, someone who can develop new technology by talking to technologist and figuring out how to make it all work. He should also have the capability to work on large clusters(not required but desirable & the right candidate will get the opportunity to learn as well), have knowledge on all types of Open Source software and applications like OSCAR and ROCKS, be able load and tweak for performance optimization all flavors of Free Operating systems like CentOS, Fedora, Redhat, Suse, Debian, Free BSD etc. The right candidate should also have Network Administration experience with Linux and have through understanding of the kernel(important). Experience with Intel and AMD 64 Bit hardware very important. If you don't possess a few of the knowledge requirements but are willing to learn its may be OK, we are flexible and we can discuss your resume. Mazda Technologies works with top tier enterprise customers and the Government DOE labs, this experience could be really enhance the right candidates resume. Mazda Technologies is a fun and flexible environment and with the right candidate we are willing to consider a candidate that wants to work part time as well. Please call me for details if you have specific questions. You can email me or call me at 925 699 4700 or 510 440 8988 ext 108 if you or someone you know is Interested in this position. Thank you Youhan Mubaraki Mazda Technologies www.mazdatechnologies.com 48511 Warm Springs Blvd STE 204 Fremont CA 94539 Tel # 510 440 8988 ext 108 Cell # 925 699 4700 Fax # 510 405 8988 Toll Free 1 888 510 8988 --Apple-Mail-34--181246648-- From jim@well.com Wed Jan 11 21:38:04 2006 Received: from smtp.well.com ([206.80.4.7]:59159) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1Ewv9m-0003TT-Ji for ; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 21:38:03 -0800 Received: from [192.168.1.101] (dsl081-061-186.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.61.186]) by smtp.well.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k0C5bL7A027638 for ; Wed, 11 Jan 2006 21:37:21 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Message-Id: To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com From: jim stockford Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 21:39:38 -0800 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.88, clamav-milter version 0.87 on smtp.well.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of jim@well.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 206.80.4.7 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jim@well.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=4.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [sf-lug] An introduction to the Python programming language X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 05:38:05 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 652 Lines: 20 Thursday evening, January 12: Newbies Night If you want an introduction to the Python programming language, Marilyn Davis' presentation should be great--she's an experienced developer and expert teacher. I'm going and I'll be glad to take you along if you respond t this email before 8:00 AM Thursday, 1/12 (tomorrow) to arrange where I pick you up in SF. Gotta be at the Google Mountain View campus by around 7:00 PM, back around 11:00 PM, I'll drive you to your house. The event is the BayPiggies Python users' group: meet in Google Building 43 lobby and walk to room Tech Talk 42 (TT-42) (1600 Amphitheatre Pkwy, Mountain View). From alamozzz@yahoo.com Thu Jan 12 11:28:08 2006 Received: from web31404.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.198.116]:36050) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1Ex873-00010a-RJ for ; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 11:28:07 -0800 Received: (qmail 49628 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Jan 2006 19:27:45 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=LQgawX0sI+j80gJxPxCpzjt7Vnp3MH2M9U4eGyRLX+4XFKCoM4I4pZtS55ogG6gQWFhTSmxFRCLaojhDDuTAu6N814gzfbPStVZE+BFtD8IdE503k3HoudvDQ3aS3THTfIG/K92IRWv9Pf0PRlNVUA2i+5W5ZEIFWbjr3H2aHKQ= ; Message-ID: <20060112192745.49626.qmail@web31404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.111.59.163] by web31404.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 11:27:45 PST Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 11:27:45 -0800 (PST) From: Adrien Lamothe To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com In-Reply-To: <20060111224713.GD32275@linuxmafia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of alamozzz@yahoo.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 68.142.198.116 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: alamozzz@yahoo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_30_40, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=3.1.0 Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1647120897-1137094065=:47429" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 19:28:08 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1899 Lines: 32 --0-1647120897-1137094065=:47429 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Rick Moen wrote: >You're welcome to speak for yourself, but I'm not only a longtime >student of business law, but also believe I know this area of it pretty >well. In part, this was incidentally to my passing of the CPA exam in >1986, which of course doesn't require one to be a attorney but does >entail a fair knowledge of some parts relevant to business. Wow, I had no idea your expertise was so deep. The next time I meet a business person needing legal consultation, I'll definitely refer you. - Adrien --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. --0-1647120897-1137094065=:47429 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Rick Moen <rick@linuxmafia.com> wrote:

>You're welcome to speak for yourself, but I'm not only a longtime
>student of business law, but also believe I know this area of it pretty
>well.  In part, this was incidentally to my passing of the CPA exam in
>1986, which of course doesn't require one to be a attorney but does
>entail a fair knowledge of some parts relevant to business.

Wow, I had no idea your expertise was so deep. The next time I meet a
business person needing legal consultation, I'll definitely refer you.

- Adrien

Yahoo! Photos
Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. --0-1647120897-1137094065=:47429-- From alamozzz@yahoo.com Thu Jan 12 11:32:25 2006 Received: from web31405.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.198.117]:38204) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1Ex8B7-00013g-7C for ; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 11:32:24 -0800 Received: (qmail 34776 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Jan 2006 19:31:59 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=txKbUrZLsDKHGHxJLHGv/bymn9PBMhO/ToAus1LxpjWHL0+kMGBRN4bS/1UbIwKdSt+C6ZoVcNHU8CK4IPE4CZObJQK6VXmgKQhmGhmBAo8EP084ufV63BzputyA3eWcvjlCv/PHH3C3nGmrLn2d2pb+MTj+8S1kA6cZ77qVwFI= ; Message-ID: <20060112193159.34774.qmail@web31405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.111.59.163] by web31405.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 11:31:59 PST Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 11:31:59 -0800 (PST) From: Adrien Lamothe To: Rick Moen , sf-lug@linuxmafia.com In-Reply-To: <20060111225329.GE32275@linuxmafia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of alamozzz@yahoo.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 68.142.198.117 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: alamozzz@yahoo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_40_50, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=unavailable version=3.1.0 Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-184453186-1137094319=:34598" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 19:32:26 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1598 Lines: 34 --0-184453186-1137094319=:34598 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Rick Moen wrote: >Adrien, your reasoning has been circular. You really should stop that. Circular? I've been re-stating the same concept, using different language, hoping you might understand the concept if explained different ways. It appears you are unwilling to acknowledge the validity of the concept, so further discussion is pointless. - Adrien --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. --0-184453186-1137094319=:34598 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Rick Moen <rick@linuxmafia.com> wrote:

>Adrien, your reasoning has been circular.  You really should stop that.

Circular? I've been re-stating the same concept, using different
language, hoping you might understand the concept if explained
different ways. It appears you are unwilling to acknowledge
the validity of the concept, so further discussion is
pointless.

- Adrien


Yahoo! Photos
Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. --0-184453186-1137094319=:34598-- From Ola.Peters@mscibarra.com Thu Jan 12 11:35:24 2006 Received: from hqvsbh1.ms.com ([205.228.12.101]:36792) by linuxmafia.com with esmtps (Cipher TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1Ex8Dx-00017L-7A ; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 11:35:24 -0800 Received: from hqvsbh1.ms.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.ms.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9B8E20D9B; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 14:34:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from ny37im02.ms.com (unknown [144.14.31.41]) by hqvsbh1.ms.com (internal Postfix) with ESMTP id C4B3D20B4D; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 14:34:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from PAWEXOB01.msad.ms.com (pawexob01 [205.228.46.100]) by ny37im02.ms.com (Sendmail MTA Hub) with ESMTP id k0CJYvU21957; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 14:34:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from PIWEXBH02.msad.ms.com ([205.228.46.225]) by PAWEXOB01.msad.ms.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 12 Jan 2006 14:34:37 -0500 Importance: normal Priority: normal Received: from NYWEXMB84.msad.ms.com ([144.203.227.11]) by PIWEXBH02.msad.ms.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 12 Jan 2006 14:34:36 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.326 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 14:34:35 -0500 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. thread-index: AcYXrvxM31vNsYNIQFKCAbHwek8RyAAABuEw From: "Peters, Ola \(MSCIBARRA\)" To: "Adrien Lamothe" , "Rick Moen" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Jan 2006 19:34:36.0713 (UTC) FILETIME=[38D97990:01C617AF] Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of Ola.Peters@mscibarra.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 205.228.12.101 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: Ola.Peters@mscibarra.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=4.0 tests=BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=3.1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C617AF.3869F94C" Subject: RE: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 19:35:25 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 4581 Lines: 127 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C617AF.3869F94C Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Would you guys mind taking this offline to a private email passing?=20 =20 Thanks, =20 Ola ________________________________ From: sf-lug-bounces@linuxmafia.com [mailto:sf-lug-bounces@linuxmafia.com] On Behalf Of Adrien Lamothe Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 11:32 AM To: Rick Moen; sf-lug@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. Rick Moen wrote: >Adrien, your reasoning has been circular. You really should stop that. Circular? I've been re-stating the same concept, using different language, hoping you might understand the concept if explained different ways. It appears you are unwilling to acknowledge the validity of the concept, so further discussion is pointless. - Adrien ________________________________ Yahoo! Photos Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars . Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. -------------------------------------------------------- NOTICE: If received in error, please destroy and notify sender. Sender = does not waive confidentiality or privilege, and use is prohibited. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C617AF.3869F94C Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Would you guys mind taking this offline to a = private email=20 passing?
 
Thanks,
 
Ola

From: sf-lug-bounces@linuxmafia.com=20 [mailto:sf-lug-bounces@linuxmafia.com] On Behalf Of Adrien=20 Lamothe
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 11:32 = AM
To: Rick=20 Moen; sf-lug@linuxmafia.com
Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's = explanation=20 of his internet setup.

Rick Moen <rick@linuxmafia.com> = wrote:

>Adrien, your reasoning has been circular. =
 You really should stop that.

Circular? I've been re-stating the =
same concept, using different
language, hoping you might understand =
the concept if explained
different ways. It appears you are unwilling =
to acknowledge
the validity of the concept, so further discussion =
is
pointless.

- Adrien


Yahoo! Photos
Ring in the New Year with Phot= o=20 Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever.

NOTICE: = If received in error, please destroy and notify sender.  Sender does not waive = confidentiality or privilege, and use is prohibited.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C617AF.3869F94C-- From alamozzz@yahoo.com Thu Jan 12 11:41:43 2006 Received: from web31403.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.198.115]:44628) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1Ex8KB-0001Bn-F9 for ; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 11:41:42 -0800 Received: (qmail 11040 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Jan 2006 19:41:22 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=KTucnD3Qq8On/I+yItu/mpF67wy0Y/u60xepQdVadh0eLVVYZgqzeNVELpxrZc0jSf9NERdjh2ixrVCy4r2kelg3WF7idBUOxRorpx0DrgDW2GLPO93ssRSZCZG/6gvkuBBWJVGKMwSgmseUMKDretv6My3K5OtS9PcNPI4rRdM= ; Message-ID: <20060112194122.11038.qmail@web31403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.111.59.163] by web31403.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 11:41:22 PST Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 11:41:22 -0800 (PST) From: Adrien Lamothe To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com In-Reply-To: <20060111225329.GE32275@linuxmafia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of alamozzz@yahoo.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 68.142.198.115 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: alamozzz@yahoo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_40_50, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=3.1.0 Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1786018048-1137094882=:10270" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 19:41:43 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1603 Lines: 33 --0-1786018048-1137094882=:10270 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Rick Moen wrote: >Adrien, your reasoning has been circular. You really should stop that. Circular? I've been re-stating the same concept, using different language, hoping you might understand the concept if explained different ways. It appears you are unwilling to acknowledge the validity of the concept, so further discussion is pointless. - Adrien --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos – Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover Photo Books. You design it and we’ll bind it! --0-1786018048-1137094882=:10270 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Rick Moen <rick@linuxmafia.com> wrote:

>Adrien, your reasoning has been circular.  You really should stop that.

Circular? I've been re-stating the same concept, using different
language, hoping you might understand the concept if explained
different ways. It appears you are unwilling to acknowledge
the validity of the concept, so further discussion is
pointless.

- Adrien

Yahoo! Photos – Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover
Photo Books. You design it and we’ll bind it! --0-1786018048-1137094882=:10270-- From alamozzz@yahoo.com Thu Jan 12 11:53:17 2006 Received: from web31403.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.198.115]:28028) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1Ex8Ur-0001Hv-Cb for ; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 11:53:15 -0800 Received: (qmail 15322 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Jan 2006 19:52:26 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=IQlqI2D+I9koZ25fKyoVnbwVuN8VKVgTQb7swvrnuqOjDPpa8uBtg+YQwVw4842eRNUiIThr9oN54vvzSMhmN7rXJpOezMT59ZTqm3fbrlyHrYISm8OHZnHNaBKHCiM7bQhlhWAP1pooE+LQlCyBw2TrpRXKITmK8pCvOnVAnO8= ; Message-ID: <20060112195226.15320.qmail@web31403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.111.59.163] by web31403.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 11:52:26 PST Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 11:52:26 -0800 (PST) From: Adrien Lamothe To: SF Linux Users Group In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Received-SPF: none (linuxmafia.com: domain of alamozzz@yahoo.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-EximConfig: v2.0 on linuxmafia.com (http://www.jcdigita.com/eximconfig) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 68.142.198.115 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: alamozzz@yahoo.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.2 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=3.1.0 Subject: RE: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-2088080909-1137095546=:14900" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Temporary home for SF-LUG's mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 19:53:19 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 4929 Lines: 65 --0-2088080909-1137095546=:14900 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Given the staleness of discourse, Ola, your idea is excellent. It is safe to say we are done with the discussion. "Peters, Ola (MSCIBARRA)" wrote: Would you guys mind taking this offline to a private email passing? Thanks, Ola --------------------------------- From: sf-lug-bounces@linuxmafia.com [mailto:sf-lug-bounces@linuxmafia.com] On Behalf Of Adrien Lamothe Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 11:32 AM To: Rick Moen; sf-lug@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. Rick Moen wrote: >Adrien, your reasoning has been circular. You really should stop that. Circular? I've been re-stating the same concept, using different language, hoping you might understand the concept if explained different ways. It appears you are unwilling to acknowledge the validity of the concept, so further discussion is pointless. - Adrien --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. --------------------------------- NOTICE: If received in error, please destroy and notify sender. Sender does not waive confidentiality or privilege, and use is prohibited. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. --0-2088080909-1137095546=:14900 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Given the staleness of discourse, Ola, your idea is excellent. It is safe to say we are done with the discussion.

"Peters, Ola (MSCIBARRA)" <Ola.Peters@mscibarra.com> wrote:
Would you guys mind taking this offline to a private email passing?
 
Thanks,
 
Ola

From: sf-lug-bounces@linuxmafia.com [mailto:sf-lug-bounces@linuxmafia.com] On Behalf Of Adrien Lamothe
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 11:32 AM
To: Rick Moen; sf-lug@linuxmafia.com
Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup.

Rick Moen <rick@linuxmafia.com> wrote:

>Adrien, your reasoning has been circular.  You really should stop that.

Circular? I've been re-stating the same concept, using
 different
language, hoping you might understand the concept if explained
different ways. It appears you are unwilling to acknowledge
the validity of the concept, so further discussion is
pointless.

- Adrien


Yahoo! Photos
Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever.
NOTICE: If received in error, please destroy and notify sender.  Sender does not waive confidentiality or privilege, and use is prohibited.

Yahoo! Photos
Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. --0-2088080909-1137095546=:14900-- From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Jan 12 12:39:54 2006 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.54 #1 (EximConfig 2.0)) id 1Ex9Ef-0001nF-9S by authid for ; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 12:39:53 -0800 Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 12:39:52 -0800 To: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [sf-lug] Rick's explanation of his internet setup. Message-ID: <20060112203952.GI32275@linuxmafia.com> References: <20060111224713.GD32275@linuxmafia.com> <20060112192745.49626.qmail@web31404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060112192745.49626.qmail@web31404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Do-Not-Run: Yes X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: sf-lug@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version