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<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">We just have to accept that meanings of words can change with time, and you and I don't get a democratic vote.</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">How about hacker? It used to be someone who just messed around with computers mostly for curiosity. Then it became associated with criminal activities. <br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">I want to use the earlier meaning, but if I call myself a "hacker", I will get a lot of strange and fearful looks.</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Anyway, one thing I like about this email group is that there are sometimes very diverse opinions. Definitely not an echo chamber.<br></div><div><br></div>
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On Friday, May 8, 2020, 11:40:41 AM PDT, Ruben Safir <ruben@mrbrklyn.com> wrote:
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<div>On Fri, May 08, 2020 at 10:44:01AM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:<br clear="none">> Quoting Ruben Safir (<a shape="rect" href="mailto:ruben@mrbrklyn.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">ruben@mrbrklyn.com</a>):<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> > I use any words I want and Oriental is a very nice word, in English<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> Yes, the word does just mean eastern, and the onus against it is a<br clear="none">> basically symbolic one based on attributed associations, that are in<br clear="none">> turn based on some truly wretched world history, but using it in 2020<br clear="none">> will unavoidably result in most people associating you with bad company.<br clear="none">> Decide for yourself whether that's metaphorically the hill you wish to<br clear="none">> die on, sir.<br clear="none">> <br clear="none"><br clear="none">This gets to be very circular. The problem is not the word, but human<br clear="none">politics, and I won't partake.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">There is no problem with the term Oriental, or any of the cultures in<br clear="none">the Orient, Chinese, Indian, Thia, Cambodian, etc. <br clear="none"><br clear="none">Classically it refers to the Persians, Jews, Assyrians, and<br clear="none">Mesopotamians.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Any word you use, in this regard, inevitably gets polluted by the real <br clear="none">cultural conflict that exists between cultures, and sometimes outright <br clear="none">bigotry. But no matter what word you use in the end to describe<br clear="none">the Chinese,(or the Indonesians etc) it will inevitably be stained by <br clear="none">the bigotries and legitimate cultural conflicts that exist.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">I suggest the time has come to confront the hard work of human suffrage,<br clear="none">and cultural conflicts and stop abusing the language.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">People are categorized as groups, tribes, nations, ethnicities, and for<br clear="none">good reason. These categorise describe reason differences between<br clear="none">people and it affects how they respond to each other and the context<br clear="none">that they function under. To ignore it is the ignore and disrespect<br clear="none">these differences and the individuals who live there lives in these<br clear="none">contexts.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Oriental is largely a geological term, just as when we say "The West".<br clear="none">It is not like using terms that are purposely derogatory, like Chink or<br clear="none">Swammy-Head, or for that matter, Nigger, or ever Jew.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Any term you chose, can in the end, and it will in the end, be used to<br clear="none">perpetrate bigotry and injustice.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">On the docks they turned the term Tzadek, into an epitaph, often<br clear="none">intentionally trying to get under my skin.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Avoiding the term Oriental because it carries symbolism of colonialism, <br clear="none">I don't even subscribe to that, and I am certainly not going to stop<br clear="none">using the term because someone is hyperventilating. Aside from that, <br clear="none">If anyone has a stain from colonial abuses, few empires beat the abuses <br clear="none">of the Chinese, both before the previous age of European Colonialism <br clear="none">and currently.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">oye. <br clear="none"><br clear="none">The one thing about Nick, though. Regardless of him being wrong or<br clear="none">right or in between, he is always thoughtful. When I asked what he<br clear="none">meant, I was sincere. I had no idea what he meant. It didn't occur to<br clear="none">me for even a moment that the word "Oriental" could in any way be cause<br clear="none">for a fuss.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">I am learning through, despite living side by side with Ethnically<br clear="none">Chinese for decades, that they are getting increasingly sensitive to<br clear="none">references and discussions of there culture, and even the Communist<br clear="none">Chinese government. But I am not partaking in any of it. It is an<br clear="none">agenda I do not agree with, and one shaped by that brutal dictatorship<br clear="none">with colonial aspirations. I'm not part of there PR department.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">If this virus was from Jerusalem, it would be the Jerusalem SARS, just<br clear="none">like it was the Middle Easter SARS. Chinese culture is not above<br clear="none">criticism, and the DRC is for sure not. All of the countries in the<br clear="none">Orient are undergoing rapid change, and most have spotty human rights<br clear="none">records to state it kindly.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">FWIW, I am glad I was born in the West...the raucous, rowdy, often<br clear="none">bigoted and violent West. I do not want to live in a nation dominated<br clear="none">by any of the oriental cultures of the far east. And I certainly don't<br clear="none">want to live in a world dominated by Communist China. I firmly believe<br clear="none">and would die for the principles of Western Individual Freedom and<br clear="none">emancipation. <br clear="none"><br clear="none"><br clear="none">> In a similar sense, as I've mentioned on the telephone, I avoid the term<br clear="none">> 'atheist' in relation for myself, preferring 'non-theist' or 'apathist'<br clear="none">> (as in, I really don't care about the issue) or 'agnostic', or<br clear="none">> 'Frisbeetarian'[1], primarily so I won't be lumped in with a bunch of<br clear="none">> notorious buttheads who long ago grabbed onto the former term.<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> Some very nice words become problematic solely because of associations<br clear="none">> they have gained. You can call that unfair and waste time and energy<br clear="none">> fighting against it, but it's the hand we're dealt.<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> [1] Explained by /usr/games/fortune as the doctrine that, when you die,<br clear="none">> your soul goes up on the roof and gets stuck.<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> _______________________________________________<br clear="none">> conspire mailing list<br clear="none">> <a shape="rect" href="mailto:conspire@linuxmafia.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">conspire@linuxmafia.com</a><br clear="none">> <a shape="rect" href="http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/conspire" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/conspire</a><br clear="none"><br clear="none">-- <br clear="none">So many immigrant groups have swept through our town<br clear="none">that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological<br clear="none">proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998<br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="http://www.mrbrklyn.com " rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.mrbrklyn.com </a><br clear="none"><br clear="none">DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002<br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="http://www.nylxs.com " rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.nylxs.com </a>- Leadership Development in Free Software<br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources " rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources </a>- Unpublished Archive <br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="http://www.coinhangout.com " rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.coinhangout.com </a>- coins!<br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="http://www.brooklyn-living.com " rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.brooklyn-living.com </a><br clear="none"><br clear="none">Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps, <br clear="none">but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013<div class="ydp23d8f6c5yqt0021602401" id="ydp23d8f6c5yqtfd42903"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"><br clear="none">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">conspire mailing list<br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="mailto:conspire@linuxmafia.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">conspire@linuxmafia.com</a><br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/conspire" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/conspire</a><br clear="none"></div></div>
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