<html><head></head><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:lucida console, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1490194921505_16545"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1490194921505_16584">Earlier in this discussion, there was a reference to </span>Assembly Bill 913 that was said to reduce frivolous suits. When I searched for AB-913, what I found was a completely different topic.</div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1490194921505_16659" dir="ltr"><br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1490194921505_16660" dir="ltr">However, I did find Senate Bill 269 which gives business the opportunity to correction certain problems. It was passed and signed by Gov Brown May of 2016</div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1490194921505_16763" dir="ltr"><a id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1490194921505_16762" class="" href="https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=201520160SB269">https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=201520160SB269</a><br></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1490194921505_16771"><a class="" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1490194921505_16849" href="http://sd31.senate.ca.gov/news/2016-05-11-calif-governor-signs-ada-tort-reform-bill">http://sd31.senate.ca.gov/news/2016-05-11-calif-governor-signs-ada-tort-reform-bill</a></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1490194921505_16969" dir="ltr"><a class="" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1490194921505_16849" href="http://sd31.senate.ca.gov/news/2016-05-11-calif-governor-signs-ada-tort-reform-bill">http://www.bizjournals.com/sacramento/news/2016/05/10/governor-signs-bill-creating-ada-grace-period-for.html</a><br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1490194921505_16857"><br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1490194921505_16921"><br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1490194921505_16831"><br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1490194921505_16550" class="qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div style="display: block;" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1490194921505_16558" class="yahoo_quoted"> <div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1490194921505_16557" style="font-family: lucida console, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"> <div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1490194921505_16556" style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> <div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1490194921505_16555" dir="ltr"> <font id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1490194921505_17097" face="Arial" size="2"> <hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Ivan Sergio Borgonovo <mail@webthatworks.it><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> conspire@linuxmafia.com <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, March 22, 2017 2:44 AM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [conspire] Contact DOJ and tell them to blow it out their ass<br> </font> </div> <div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1490194921505_16661" class="y_msg_container"><br><div dir="ltr">On 03/22/2017 12:32 AM, Rick Moen wrote:<br clear="none">> Quoting Ivan Sergio Borgonovo (<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:mail@webthatworks.it" href="mailto:mail@webthatworks.it">mail@webthatworks.it</a>):<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Premise: I do really appreciate your post because it makes me learn <br clear="none">things that I didn't know about US legal system but if we can just talk <br clear="none">about technicality without knowing where we would like to go there can <br clear="none">not be any constructive discussion.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Those technicality are important if you've to go to court, but since we <br clear="none">were discussing if giving a grace period to business would be an <br clear="none">improvement, we were discussing about changing the law.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">I'm aware that it can be pretty hard to write laws as you write <br clear="none">algorithms, that's probably why we have courts.<br clear="none">But having a technical approach to thing, this would be one of the most <br clear="none">important target when planning to write or amend a law.<br clear="none">And according to what everyone is saying on the list the main problem is <br clear="none">understanding how to be ADA compliant is hard and how some requirement <br clear="none">are nonsensical.<br clear="none">In my opinion giving a grace period to business opens another can of <br clear="none">worms and doesn't fix the issue.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">I'm not an expert and it is hard to compare complexity of legal system <br clear="none">(number of laws, procedures, coherency, litigiousness...).<br clear="none">But we have our share of problems here too so you've all my <br clear="none">understanding for how it can be hard to abide ADA.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">> A public officer suing runs into the obvious roadblock of the legal<br clear="none">> concept of standing. <a shape="rect" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_</a>(law)<br clear="none">> Plaintiff in civil litigation must be able to prove he/she is directly<br clear="none">> and personally harmed by the claimed tort (non-criminal wrongful deed).<br clear="none">><br clear="none">> Public officers do not, in English-derived legal systems like the USA's,<br clear="none">> have a magic card to deploy that says 'I'm an important representative<br clear="none">> of the public, ergo I get standing automatically to represent the public<br clear="none">> interest broadly.' Doesn't work that way.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">OK, I got my mistake.<br clear="none">Public officers can't sue, but what if they could fine?<br clear="none">Now you want business to become compliant and if nobody is entitled or <br clear="none">able to check, you'll have to trust on business good will.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">So I think it is OK if citizens have an incentive to sue.<br clear="none">But that incentive has to be proportionate to many factors and not start <br clear="none">at $4000 straight.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">[snip]<br clear="none"><br clear="none">> Suing (bringing a tort action under civil law) does not normally expose<br clear="none">> a plaintiff to risk other than the risk of expending the cost of<br clear="none">> supporting a lawsuit and getting nothing in return in a court judgement<br clear="none">> or settlement. In rare cases, courts will assess a plaintiff's action<br clear="none"><br clear="none">I'd consider this a risk if you sue people as line of business.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">>> And remedies seems worse than the cure:<br clear="none">>> «His Assembly Bill 913 would clamp down on frequent filers»<br clear="none"><br clear="none">> How to assess the merits of that proposal that would depend on what<br clear="none">> 'clamp down' means.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">I see the problem in "frequent". Frequent doesn't say anything on the merit.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">> 1. Most people assume that once a business is ADA-compliant, it will<br clear="none">> continue to be so. That seems like a reasonable assumption, because<br clear="none">> otherwise the country is putting a large and unexpected burden on<br clear="none">> (mostly) small businesses to re-educate themselves continually and<br clear="none">> periodically do new work. Well, surprise! My understanding is that<br clear="none">> the regulations and standards (the Americans With Disabilities Act<br clear="none">> Accessibility Guidelines) periodically change _and_ that new<br clear="none">> requirements _do_ fall with full force onto ADA-non-exempt businesses<br clear="none">> even if they have not had new construction, modifications, or<br clear="none">> alterations.<br clear="none">><br clear="none">> Therefore, businesses that have historically been fully ADA-compliant<br clear="none">> can easily find themselves ADA-non-compliant without doing anything<br clear="none">> different -- and the first indication they typically have of this new<br clear="none">> problem is being on the pointy end of a civil lawsuit.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">You can't fix the problem of competitiveness of small business that way.<br clear="none">You'd better write requirement that can be followed and are actually <br clear="none">effective or create a market for consulting firms that's enough <br clear="none">interesting to lower the price of consulting.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">[snip]<br clear="none"><br clear="none">> Permitting allegedly infringing businesses a 90- or 120-day grace period<br clear="none">> to fix alleged violations before a plaintiff is permitted to file a<br clear="none">> lawsuit would still leave businesses highly motivated to fix problems<br clear="none">> but prevent people like Gerardo Hernandez from being able to coerce tens<br clear="none">> of thousands of dollars in ADA damages from countless small businesses<br clear="none">> (in addition to the cost of court action and renovations work) for<br clear="none">> violations they didn't even know they were commiting.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">I point again to:<br clear="none">“Forty percent of the cases in 2015 were filed by just two firms who are <br clear="none">exploiting ADA lawsuits for their own personal gain."<br clear="none">So probably it's not a problem of some Gerardos.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">> I rather suspect that your perception that a bit of courseware was more<br clear="none">> promotional than educational would be of little interest to the court in<br clear="none">> this legal matter. It's not what would be adjudicated.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Oh well but it could be interesting for MIT... they could just take it <br clear="none">down. But wait, they probably do it for advertising not pro bono ;)<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Yeah I'm aware that my experience is not yet statistically relevant, but <br clear="none">enough statistically relevant for me to avoid investing further time in <br clear="none">making it statistically relevant for everyone else.<br clear="none">But I got the impression that if the focus was seriously "free public <br clear="none">education" there wouldn't be such competition between people that can't <br clear="none">afford university and people with disabilities.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">So going back to the technical problem of giving people an education... <br clear="none">what kind of tools and materials would you give to people to learn <br clear="none">Computer Science for example?<br clear="none">My gut feeling is that solving the problem to teach CS online to anyone <br clear="none">is no different than teaching it to blind or deaf people. And that could <br clear="none">be true for many subjects and different disabilities.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Probably teaching a blind person how to become a surgeon is harder and <br clear="none">possibly moot.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Now when institutions that have to comply to ADA have to decide where to <br clear="none">put their money and resources and they put online advertising stuff <br clear="none">disguised as courses well it is their choice.<br clear="none">Is advertising deducible in US? ;)<br clear="none"><br clear="none">I really doubt this has any impact on "public education".<br clear="none">Nevertheless, to come back to the original issue, I think everybody <br clear="none">should care if educational materials are accessible.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">-- <br clear="none">Ivan Sergio Borgonovo<br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="http://www.webthatworks.it/" target="_blank">http://www.webthatworks.it </a><a shape="rect" href="http://www.borgonovo.net/" target="_blank">http://www.borgonovo.net</a><div class="yqt0722397284" id="yqtfd11529"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"><br clear="none">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">conspire mailing list<br clear="none"><a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:conspire@linuxmafia.com" href="mailto:conspire@linuxmafia.com">conspire@linuxmafia.com</a><br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/conspire" target="_blank">http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/conspire</a><br clear="none"></div></div><br><br></div> </div> </div> </div></div></body></html>