[conspire] CABAL ... Debian "blind" install: RE: (forw) issue encountered during installation

Sat Jul 9 15:40:20 PDT 2022

I may be late getting to virtual attendance just as I am late in
commenting.  First Westercon in Tonapah and then my unplanned winding up
attending 6 days of this years Mensa AG where I now sit.

I had wanted to suggest downloading a copy of Klaus Knopper's Knoppix.
Klaus' wife Adrian is blind and he has built in her honor a variant called
"Adrian" that works out of the box on most hardware, more than Knoppix
itself (A distro with more than the kitchen sink in it, it includes the
whole kitchen).

"Adrian" is also a boot option for booting the live from DVD Knoppix distro
but the pure "Adrian" version worked better in my experiments a few years
ago. There are also scripts that can be used to install the distro to a HD.

Originally based on Red Hat it has been Debian based for a long time (Long
ago, I spent hours encouraging him to switch to Debian at Cebit in Germany).

Sometimes tricky on booting is finding "=" sign on a default German
keyboard mapping, even when your live booted "English" version download
keeps coming up with a German keyboard.

Handy also is in versions around 5.0 or 5.5 (IFIRC) where there is an
optional to easily start a PXE server to allow any/another computer on your
local network to run another instance of Knoppix.  I think that version was
before "Adrian" but that could be remedied.

Even if you choose to install a regular Debian and then add in the audio
speaking packages, undoubtably a worthwile learning process, I would
encourage you at least try Adrian in order to refine your expectations and
investigate how it's put together when it's in a working state.

Best,
@

On Saturday, July 9, 2022, Michael Paoli <Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu>
wrote:

> I'm intending to at least make it virtually
> http://meet.jit.si/CABAL
> to CABAL today ... maybe even in person, as it sounds
> mightily deliciously tempting:
> http://linuxmafia.com/pipermail/conspire/2022-July/012114.html
>
> In either case, intending to at least also be there virtually,
> and also see if I can work out doing a proper blind Debian
> install.  Don't think I'll give myself the extra challenge
> of doing it without watching - as I'm probably not nearly
> so adept in navigating it by audio - but hoping I can come up
> with the full sequence/procedure that should work without
> having to actually look/watch, and hopefully I'll pay quite
> enough attention listening also, so if there's any procedural or
> menu glitch or bug in doing a blind install, that I'd also
> catch and note it.
>
> Intending to do it on a Virtual Machine (VM) ... so there may be
> hardware differences, but other than that, expecting it ought
> be about the same.  Most of the time I don't even bother or think
> about audio on a VM - so I'll have to be sure I get that functional
> too.  Even rather surprises me when I happen to discover I have
> that, as usually I'm not using audio on a VM ... and sometimes catches
> my by surprise when I find it's there and fully functional ... e.g.
> like when I fire up a GUI browser under X and play some video that
> also has audio, or likewise fire up browser and do Jitsi Meet on
> that within VM and the audio and video are all perfectly operational.
> I think I did that about a year or two ago on testing out a system
> I did a Debian install on - plus Debian VM within.
>
> Anyway, should be bit of exercise/experiment for me, as I don't think
> I've actually run through Debian's blind installation procedures in
> ... well, many years.  But it ought work smoothly enough.
>
> I'll also download relevant ISOs ahead of time, so I should have those
> available for the VM to use, and mostly avoid excessive network or
> download needs, etc.
>
> I'll update if/when I'll be on my way to go there in person or
> if that turns out to be my plan.
>
> From: "David Chan" <chandtw at pacbell.net>
>> Subject: RE: [conspire] (forw) issue encountered during installation
>> Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 20:02:38 -0700
>>
>
>
>> I am not sure if I can show up in person, since I am in the middle of a
>> conference that runs on Central time zone, but I can join virtually though
>> [at least for this month, maybe I can come in person next month?]
>>
>> I was able to get speech during the Debian installation, but when it
>> comes time to reboot it appears some components are missing from the
>> installation, and it keeps looking for the boot device, and I wasn't sure
>> if it is because of the SSD or if it is something else; the ubuntu
>> installed successfully, I just wasn't able to activate the speech after the
>> install, and I believe there is no option installing using speech
>>
>> --David
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Michael Paoli <Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu>
>> Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2022 6:17 AM
>> To: David Chan <chandtw at pacbell.net>
>> Cc: conspire at linuxmafia.com
>> Subject: Re: [conspire] (forw) issue encountered during installation
>>
>> Let's see ... has been a while - alas, well over a decade - since I last
>> assisted a user with a Linux installation for blind user.  I ought practice
>> more - at least once in a while, make sure it works, or at least mostly
>> does so, and get myself at least a bit more familiar with the procedure.
>>
>> Peeking at some Debian documents, e.g.:
>> https://wiki.debian.org/accessibility#Debian_installer_accessibility
>> It seems it should mostly "just work" - though there are at least some
>> specific steps to be followed along the way - e.g. notably activating
>> speech during install.  Anyway, I'm also much more familiar with Debian
>> than Ubuntu ... though I'd guestimate Ubuntu would be relatively similar
>> ... ish?  But don't think I've ever attempted that with Ubuntu, and I'd
>> guestimate likely that support is better on Debian.  Perhaps you'll make
>> the next CABAL meeting.  If so, perhaps let us know in advance.
>> I might make it to the next CABAL meeting.  And also of relevance, the
>> conspire list, if you've not joined:
>> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/conspire
>>
>> Anyway, also, my guestimates where things might've gone sideways or
>> failed with the earlier installation, etc. attempts - I comment in-line
>> further below:
>>
>> From: "Rick Moen" <rick at linuxmafia.com>
>>> Subject: [conspire] (forw) issue encountered during installation
>>> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2022 23:44:08 -0700
>>>
>>
>> Sending so more folks look at this.  I've just clarified to David that
>>> the next CABAL event will be July _9th_.
>>>
>>> ----- Forwarded message from David Chan <chandtw at pacbell.net> -----
>>>
>>> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2022 21:42:43 -0700
>>> From: David Chan <chandtw at pacbell.net>
>>> To: installers at linuxmafia.com
>>> Subject: issue encountered during installation
>>> Reply-To: chandtw at pacbell.net
>>>
>>> I am not sure if I can make it in person next Saturday, is there still
>>> virtual meeting option available?
>>>
>>
>> I believe virtual will also be available again - in more recent many
>> months, generally in-person - with proof of vaccination - has been
>> available, and also virtual - which started during the pandemic.
>> Watch the conspire list for confirmation and URL - but I'm also
>> guesmating the URL for virtual will likely be the same.  And the archives
>> are open to the public, so anyone can read postings, even if they're not a
>> member of the list.
>>
>> Blind user that uses a screen review package called 'speakup' which is
>>> usually in a kernel module but is sometimes done as a kernel patch
>>>
>>> Attempted installation on a Toshiba Satellite CT55 with a Samsung 500G
>>> SSD
>>>
>>> With ubuntu server 22.04LTS, OS install was successful, and I can see
>>> the module was loaded:
>>>
>>
>> As for Ubuntu, Ubuntu-Server would be a good choice for blind, as it
>> forgoes the ewey GUI stuff, and, at least last I checked, the installer for
>> Ubuntu-Server is essentially the Debian installer plus some modest Ubuntu
>> customizations - probably most notably for many is different color scheme -
>> but there are some other modest differences too.
>>
>> # modprobe speakup_soft
>>>
>>> The 'espeakup' package is then installed to make the computer talk:
>>>
>>> # Apt-get install espeakup
>>>
>>> However, there was no speech after the install of the package
>>> finished, and I am unable to figure why it is not talking - maybe the
>>> firmware driver is incorrect?
>>>
>>
>> Not sure, but one thing I might guess as a possibility, and I've
>> sometimes run across this with Debian installs, and have seen what looks to
>> be same or similar from at least some fair number of user installs of,
>> notably Debian, but Ubuntu may be quite similar in this particular regard.
>>
>> Anyway, often on a fresh install, I find folks complain of no audio.
>> And terse summary of my response is generally along the lines of:
>> "Volume?"
>> Most notably, as often I find/observe/hear that at least by default,
>> though the audio typically installs fine, it often initially defaults on a
>> fresh new install to having the volume levels start out set to zero.  So
>> sometimes it's a mere matter of turning up the volume in relevant
>> configuration and/or controls.  At least that's the most common issue I see
>> with "no sound" on a fresh Debian installation - and may well be likewise
>> for Ubuntu.
>>
>> Switched to Debian 11.3, choose 's' for speech at the selection
>>> prompt, the talking installer starts, and the installation process was
>>> successful, the CD drive spits out the disk, and hit return to reboot
>>>
>>
>> Yes, Debian, a fine selection - and my favorite distro.
>>
>> However, after the reboot, the laptop was unable to detect the OS -
>>> apparently the files needed to boot were somehow not installed [I
>>> switched to tty2 and looked around before rebooting after installing
>>> again, and see the boot folder was missing]
>>>
>>
>> So, I'm guestimating some step was likely missed during install.  Unlike
>> some other distros - and even installers - with the Debian install - at
>> least using the Debian installer - when it comes to at least the critical
>> parts that overwrite stuff on drive, it defaults to not doing so.
>> So, e.g. typically doing things such as writing the partition table out,
>> writing the boot information to the drive, etc., will often default to no,
>> or not pick the device automatically - but give option of devices, on where
>> to write the boot information.  So, if one misses one of those steps, one
>> could easily end up with an install that isn't bootable.
>>
>> However, if one's already done most all the install work, and might
>> prefer not to repeat that, may also be relatively easy to fix.  Doing a
>> "rescue" mode boot from ISO, one can often fairly easily repair a situation
>> like that - notably adding or even otherwise fixing missing or broken boot
>> bits, without need to reinstall.  And, at least from what I seem to gather
>> glancing through some relevant Debian documentation, looks like Debian, at
>> least now, also well supports running "rescue"
>> mode from fairly common install ISOs, and well supports, e.g. speech, and
>> other accessibility capabilities there too - quite similar to when doing
>> install - just slightly different set of actions to instead go into rescue
>> mode.
>>
>> Any suggestions & help appreciated, thank you very much for looking
>>>
>>
>> Some additional resources one may wish to consider or utilize, Debian
>> does also have excellent lists and support.  Might even be able to search
>> out an answer there or other useful information.
>> Debian also has pretty darn good live interactive support on IRC, that
>> can be a quite good resource - I usually find it very good for faster
>> and/or interactive response/information, when the issue or matter isn't too
>> horribly complex or rare, etc.  Also, the Debian IRC stuff is publicly
>> logged, so, e.g. if an answer or useful response comes later after one has
>> dropped off, can often review the IRC logs to pick up that information
>> later.  Anyway, IRC there might be well suited to, e.g. help one go through
>> rescue mode, examine and repair the current situation.
>>
>> Anyway, yes, there is also CABAL coming in near future - let us know,
>> preferably at least wee bit ahead of time, if you'll be coming - and
>> in-person, or virtual, and what issues you may still be facing at that time
>> ... or maybe you'll update to let us know all has been solved by then ...
>> and it's a cool meeting/event to attend in any case ... and yummy food if
>> one makes it in person.
>>
>> Oh, might also be good to let us know, if you continue to have issues, if
>> you're doing UEFI or MBR install, and if you know if the hardware supports
>> just one, or both, and if both, which method you've used on installation.
>> And thanks for providing the hardware information - that's important, and
>> we may also be able to figure out that and/or other relevant information
>> based upon knowing what the hardware is.
>>
>
>
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