[conspire] Michael Paoli to be @ CABAL ... RE: CABAL ... Debian "blind" install: RE: (forw) issue encountered during installation

[Michael Paoli]

... and planning to get myself to CABAL
I'll likely bring chips and the makings for dip.

So, yep, in person + Jitsi Meet.

And to join Jitsi Meet, you don't need anything special,
can do it all within browser ...
https://meet.jit.si/CABAL
or can also just dial in from
phone for audio only.  The URL has all the options, links,
number(s) and/or can expand with a click or two to see all the relevant
numbers.
US Dial-in: +1.512.647.1431 PIN: 3654 3335 40#
For many "smart" phones you can put in:
+ 1512-647-1431,3654333540#
And that generally works automagically dialing in.  Clicking the
"right spot" on the web page or link from there will also typically
have such phones automagically dial that.

> From: "David Chan" <chandtw at pacbell.net>
> Subject: RE: CABAL ... Debian "blind" install: RE: [conspire] (forw)  
> issue	encountered during installation
> Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 08:21:10 -0700

> The Debian blind install has improved since we last did it, now it  
> is just the press of a key,and it is also using software speech  
> instead of the hardware synthesizer
>
> I was using the unofficial version that included the firmware, I  
> will download the official version in a bit and we can try another  
> install using that this evening
>
> Do I need to download anything, or just click the link to join in  
> the fun?  Talk in a bit, and thanks again
>
> --David
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Paoli <Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2022 8:09 AM
> To: chandtw at pacbell.net
> Cc: conspire at linuxmafia.com
> Subject: CABAL ... Debian "blind" install: RE: [conspire] (forw)  
> issue encountered during installation
>
> I'm intending to at least make it virtually http://meet.jit.si/CABAL  
> to CABAL today ... maybe even in person, as it sounds mightily  
> deliciously tempting:
> http://linuxmafia.com/pipermail/conspire/2022-July/012114.html
>
> In either case, intending to at least also be there virtually, and  
> also see if I can work out doing a proper blind Debian install.   
> Don't think I'll give myself the extra challenge of doing it without  
> watching - as I'm probably not nearly so adept in navigating it by  
> audio - but hoping I can come up with the full sequence/procedure  
> that should work without having to actually look/watch, and  
> hopefully I'll pay quite enough attention listening also, so if  
> there's any procedural or menu glitch or bug in doing a blind  
> install, that I'd also catch and note it.
>
> Intending to do it on a Virtual Machine (VM) ... so there may be  
> hardware differences, but other than that, expecting it ought be  
> about the same.  Most of the time I don't even bother or think about  
> audio on a VM - so I'll have to be sure I get that functional too.   
> Even rather surprises me when I happen to discover I have that, as  
> usually I'm not using audio on a VM ... and sometimes catches my by  
> surprise when I find it's there and fully functional ... e.g.
> like when I fire up a GUI browser under X and play some video that  
> also has audio, or likewise fire up browser and do Jitsi Meet on  
> that within VM and the audio and video are all perfectly operational.
> I think I did that about a year or two ago on testing out a system I  
> did a Debian install on - plus Debian VM within.
>
> Anyway, should be bit of exercise/experiment for me, as I don't  
> think I've actually run through Debian's blind installation  
> procedures in ... well, many years.  But it ought work smoothly  
> enough.
>
> I'll also download relevant ISOs ahead of time, so I should have  
> those available for the VM to use, and mostly avoid excessive  
> network or download needs, etc.
>
> I'll update if/when I'll be on my way to go there in person or if  
> that turns out to be my plan.
>
>> From: "David Chan" <chandtw at pacbell.net>
>> Subject: RE: [conspire] (forw) issue encountered during installation
>> Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 20:02:38 -0700
>
>>
>> I am not sure if I can show up in person, since I am in the middle of
>> a conference that runs on Central time zone, but I can join virtually
>> though [at least for this month, maybe I can come in person next
>> month?]
>>
>> I was able to get speech during the Debian installation, but when it
>> comes time to reboot it appears some components are missing from the
>> installation, and it keeps looking for the boot device, and I wasn't
>> sure if it is because of the SSD or if it is something else; the
>> ubuntu installed successfully, I just wasn't able to activate the
>> speech after the install, and I believe there is no option installing
>> using speech
>>
>> --David
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Michael Paoli <Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu>
>> Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2022 6:17 AM
>> To: David Chan <chandtw at pacbell.net>
>> Cc: conspire at linuxmafia.com
>> Subject: Re: [conspire] (forw) issue encountered during installation
>>
>> Let's see ... has been a while - alas, well over a decade - since I
>> last assisted a user with a Linux installation for blind user.  I
>> ought practice more - at least once in a while, make sure it works, or
>> at least mostly does so, and get myself at least a bit more familiar
>> with the procedure.
>>
>> Peeking at some Debian documents, e.g.:
>> https://wiki.debian.org/accessibility#Debian_installer_accessibility
>> It seems it should mostly "just work" - though there are at least some
>> specific steps to be followed along the way - e.g. notably activating
>> speech during install.  Anyway, I'm also much more familiar with
>> Debian than Ubuntu ... though I'd guestimate Ubuntu would be
>> relatively similar ... ish?  But don't think I've ever attempted that
>> with Ubuntu, and I'd guestimate likely that support
>> is better on Debian.  Perhaps you'll make the next CABAL meeting.
>> If so, perhaps let us know in advance.
>> I might make it to the next CABAL meeting.  And also of relevance, the
>> conspire list, if you've not joined:
>> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/conspire
>>
>> Anyway, also, my guestimates where things might've gone sideways or
>> failed with the earlier installation, etc. attempts - I comment
>> in-line further below:
>>
>>> From: "Rick Moen" <rick at linuxmafia.com>
>>> Subject: [conspire] (forw) issue encountered during installation
>>> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2022 23:44:08 -0700
>>
>>> Sending so more folks look at this.  I've just clarified to David
>>> that the next CABAL event will be July _9th_.
>>>
>>> ----- Forwarded message from David Chan <chandtw at pacbell.net> -----
>>>
>>> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2022 21:42:43 -0700
>>> From: David Chan <chandtw at pacbell.net>
>>> To: installers at linuxmafia.com
>>> Subject: issue encountered during installation
>>> Reply-To: chandtw at pacbell.net
>>>
>>> I am not sure if I can make it in person next Saturday, is there
>>> still virtual meeting option available?
>>
>> I believe virtual will also be available again - in more recent many
>> months, generally in-person - with proof of vaccination - has been
>> available, and also virtual - which started during the pandemic.
>> Watch the conspire list for confirmation and URL - but I'm also
>> guesmating the URL for virtual will likely be the same.  And the
>> archives are open to the public, so anyone can read postings, even if
>> they're not a member of the list.
>>
>>> Blind user that uses a screen review package called 'speakup' which
>>> is usually in a kernel module but is sometimes done as a kernel patch
>>>
>>> Attempted installation on a Toshiba Satellite CT55 with a Samsung
>>> 500G SSD
>>>
>>> With ubuntu server 22.04LTS, OS install was successful, and I can see
>>> the module was loaded:
>>
>> As for Ubuntu, Ubuntu-Server would be a good choice for blind, as it
>> forgoes the ewey GUI stuff, and, at least last I checked, the
>> installer for Ubuntu-Server is essentially the Debian installer plus
>> some modest Ubuntu customizations - probably most notably for many is
>> different color scheme - but there are some other modest differences
>> too.
>>
>>> # modprobe speakup_soft
>>>
>>> The 'espeakup' package is then installed to make the computer talk:
>>>
>>> # Apt-get install espeakup
>>>
>>> However, there was no speech after the install of the package
>>> finished, and I am unable to figure why it is not talking - maybe the
>>> firmware driver is incorrect?
>>
>> Not sure, but one thing I might guess as a possibility, and I've
>> sometimes run across this with Debian installs, and have seen what
>> looks to be same or similar from at least some fair number of user
>> installs of, notably Debian, but Ubuntu may be quite similar in this
>> particular regard.
>>
>> Anyway, often on a fresh install, I find folks complain of no audio.
>> And terse summary of my response is generally along the lines of:
>> "Volume?"
>> Most notably, as often I find/observe/hear that at least by default,
>> though the audio typically installs fine, it often initially defaults
>> on a fresh new install to having the volume levels start out set to
>> zero.  So sometimes it's a mere matter of turning up the volume in
>> relevant configuration and/or controls.  At least that's the most
>> common issue I see with "no sound" on a fresh Debian installation -
>> and may well be likewise for Ubuntu.
>>
>>> Switched to Debian 11.3, choose 's' for speech at the selection
>>> prompt, the talking installer starts, and the installation process
>>> was successful, the CD drive spits out the disk, and hit return to
>>> reboot
>>
>> Yes, Debian, a fine selection - and my favorite distro.
>>
>>> However, after the reboot, the laptop was unable to detect the OS -
>>> apparently the files needed to boot were somehow not installed [I
>>> switched to tty2 and looked around before rebooting after installing
>>> again, and see the boot folder was missing]
>>
>> So, I'm guestimating some step was likely missed during install.
>> Unlike some other distros - and even installers - with the Debian
>> install - at least using the Debian installer - when it comes to at
>> least the critical parts that overwrite stuff on drive, it defaults to
>> not doing so.
>> So, e.g. typically doing things such as writing the partition table
>> out, writing the boot information to the drive, etc., will often
>> default to no, or not pick the device automatically - but give option
>> of devices, on where to write the boot information.  So, if one misses
>> one of those steps, one could easily end up with an install that isn't
>> bootable.
>>
>> However, if one's already done most all the install work, and might
>> prefer not to repeat that, may also be relatively easy to fix.
>> Doing a "rescue" mode boot from ISO, one can often fairly easily
>> repair a situation like that - notably adding or even otherwise fixing
>> missing or broken boot bits, without need to reinstall.  And, at least
>> from what I seem to gather glancing through some relevant Debian
>> documentation, looks like Debian, at least now, also well supports
>> running "rescue"
>> mode from fairly common install ISOs, and well supports, e.g.
>> speech, and other accessibility capabilities there too - quite similar
>> to when doing install - just slightly different set of actions to
>> instead go into rescue mode.
>>
>>> Any suggestions & help appreciated, thank you very much for looking
>>
>> Some additional resources one may wish to consider or utilize, Debian
>> does also have excellent lists and support.  Might even be able to
>> search out an answer there or other useful information.
>> Debian also has pretty darn good live interactive support on IRC, that
>> can be a quite good resource - I usually find it very good for faster
>> and/or interactive response/information, when the issue or matter
>> isn't too horribly complex or rare, etc.  Also, the Debian IRC stuff
>> is publicly logged, so, e.g. if an answer or useful response comes
>> later after one has dropped off, can often review the IRC logs to pick
>> up that information later.  Anyway, IRC there might be well suited to,
>> e.g. help one go through rescue mode, examine and repair the current
>> situation.
>>
>> Anyway, yes, there is also CABAL coming in near future - let us know,
>> preferably at least wee bit ahead of time, if you'll be coming
>> - and in-person, or virtual, and what issues you may still be facing
>> at that time ... or maybe you'll update to let us know all has been
>> solved by then ... and it's a cool meeting/event to attend in any case
>> ... and yummy food if one makes it in person.
>>
>> Oh, might also be good to let us know, if you continue to have issues,
>> if you're doing UEFI or MBR install, and if you know if the hardware
>> supports just one, or both, and if both, which method you've used on
>> installation.  And thanks for providing the hardware information -
>> that's important, and we may also be able to figure out that and/or
>> other relevant information based upon knowing what the hardware is.
>
>
>