[conspire] Numbers racket

[Ruben Safir]

On Mon, Apr 27, 2020 at 03:11:53PM -0700, Deirdre Saoirse Moen wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 27, 2020, at 2:08 PM, Ruben Safir wrote:
> > On 4/27/20 5:55 AM, Deirdre Saoirse Moen wrote:
> > > Exactly, and that assumes that there’s immunity, which we still do not
> > > know.
> > 
> > When there is no immunity the patients die.  That is what happens with
> > HIV.  There is no immunity and the patients never overcome the disease
> > and they die.  Most patients take this one and never get more than a
> > cold.  That is the defintion of immunity.
> 
> It is not, not at all. We do not know they cannot get *reinfected*. That is an assumption that people have been making that is unwarranted.
> 

It is.  That is what the anti-bodies are, and how the B and T cells
interact.  The reason it fails for HIV is that HIV attacks the T-Cells.


> 1. We don't know that 

You don't know that, but I do.

> we can create an effective vaccine because we have never created an effective vaccine for the betacoronavirus family for humans.
> 

The problem with the vaccine ... actually there are a lot of problems
with the vaccine, most of them political.  It is likely we can create a
vaccine.. it is very very likely.  

> 2. Even if we did, we don't know that it would actually prevent reinfection, or that reinfection wouldn't actually be worse (my point in raising dengue).

There is no way you are getting reinfection.  Your completely
misunderstanding this.  When your body can't produce immunity, you NEVER
defeat the virus.  You remain sick forever until you die.

The immunity can wear off in time, but that is true of most viruses.

If you want to believe otherwise, then pack it in, because this is the
end of mankind, and you have a front row seat.

> 
> I'm going to harp on the second because it's more fun.
> 
> The cytokine release storm that causes the unreal lung issues 

This has nothing to do with cytokines.

By the time you get to a cytokine storm, the game is over.

> in ICU patients in COVID-19 who are otherwise healthy implies that there is a possibility of antibody-dependent enhancement, but I have lost the tab with the logic for that, mea culpa. So my apologies for the lapse of logic between this paragraph and the next.
> 
> HAVING HAD THE VIRUS MAY MAKE REINFECTION WORSE, NOT PREVENT REINFECTION.

For some patients that might be true, unfortunately.  If the initial
innoculation is incomplete, the second response can be more destructive,
assuming that there is an autoimmune component.  In general though, that
is not how this virus works.  Cytokine storms happen in most septicsemic
shock, but that doesn't make these autoim,une diseases.

The diseass that act as your describing is like step and scalet fever.

It might be difficult to develop a vaccination, but it is really just a
matter of time.  Immunity, there is no doubt about it.  We build
immunity to these viruses all the time.  The alternative is exctinction.



> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibody-dependent_enhancement
> 

Umm - I have other sources.  Goodman and Gilman amoung others
https://medicostimes.com/goodman-gilmans-pharmacology-pdf/

This is 12, it is up to 13

Marsh and Kendal
https://www.abebooks.com/9780849380334/Physiology-Immunity-Comparative-Immunology-Marsh-0849380332/plp

and an endless number of papers


> …and that's what's, in part, leading to the specific failures in lungs and heart, possibly what led to the heart *rupture* in the autopsy I posted yesterday:
> 
> Linked from here: https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Exclusive-Autopsy-report-of-first-known-15226422.php
> 
> So, what ADE means, as a practical matter, to spell it out: previous exposure to something similar (SARS, MERS, COVID19) *may* (we don't know) set you up so that a reinfection could kill you when you get infected with something similar enough. Which means a vaccine could too, unfortunately. (No, I'm not an anti-vaxxer in the slightest, but there are issues in safe vaccine production.)
> 
> Now, I will admit, I have a ton less less specific pharmacological experience than you do, but on this specific disease, I'm pretty sure I've read a lot more than you have because I've read over 2000 pages of science papers so far and trying to ensure I understand all the nuances of what I'm able to. (I don't have a lot of bench science, but I do have immunology and neuroscience specifically.)
> 
> 1. From SARS research: Viral-Induced Enhanced Disease Illness
> 
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6290032/
> 
> 2. From SARS research: Anti–spike IgG causes severe acute lung injury by skewing macrophage responses during acute SARS-CoV infection
> 
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6478436/
> 
> > By contrast, it was shown that SARS-CoV–specific immune memory induced by prior infection enhanced lung inflammation following homologous challenge in African green monkeys (17).
> 
> 3. From research on numerous species: SARS vaccines: where are we?
> 
> https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1586/erv.09.43
> 
> > Unfortunately, CoV vaccines have a history of enhancing disease, notably with feline CoVs [80,125].
> 
> Which, fwiw, may be specific to feline genetics and immune systems.
> 
> All of this depends on *long-term* how it affects the B-cells, which we do NOT YET KNOW.
> 
> Ruben, sit down and let the virologists do their shit.
> 
> Deirdre
> 
> _______________________________________________
> conspire mailing list
> conspire at linuxmafia.com
> http://linuxmafia.com/mailman/listinfo/conspire

-- 
So many immigrant groups have swept through our town
that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological
proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
http://www.mrbrklyn.com 

DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive 
http://www.coinhangout.com - coins!
http://www.brooklyn-living.com 

Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps, 
but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013