From conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Sun Dec 24 01:00:02 2000 Path: not-for-mail From: Rick Moen Newsgroups: cabal.conspire Organization: If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already. Distribution: world Summary: Keywords: User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991201 ("Polish") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.16 (i586)) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 00:59:06 -0800 Message-ID: Xref: linuxmafia.com cabal.conspire:2 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: [conspire] Next InstallFest Status: O Content-Length: 873 Lines: 18 Ordinarily, we try to alternate InstallFest locations between the Cow Palace and the Oakland Convention Center. However, the only January 2001 date that seemed to work for everyone was Saturday, Jan. 24 (the 4th Saturday), which is a Cow Palace date for the Robert Austin Company. So, the Cow Palace it is! BAFUG wasn't able to make the December 9 Cow Palace event, but I hope Josef will be able to join Mike Higashi for the January date. I must say, I had a blast with everyone at the December shindig, and at the CABAL meeting afterwards -- even though I was coming down with a horrible case of the 'flu, and pretty much collapsed around 10 PM. Let's go for it again, and this time with no viruses. -- Cheers, "Reality is not optional." Rick Moen -- Thomas Sowell rick@linuxmafia.com From dagmar@dsurreal.org Thu Feb 01 19:41:40 2001 Received: from w082.z064002035.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net ([64.2.35.82] helo=evil.kung.foo) by uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 14OX6S-000156-00 for ; Thu, 01 Feb 2001 19:41:40 -0800 Received: from localhost (IDENT:dagmar@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by evil.kung.foo (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f123Yrj31149 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 19:34:53 -0800 Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 19:34:53 -0800 (PST) From: "Dagmar d'Surreal" To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [conspire] PING Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 54 Lines: 5 Halooo... *kof*kof* This thing still works, right? From rick@linuxmafia.com Fri Feb 02 11:35:45 2001 Received: from rick by uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 14Olzl-0006Pc-00 for ; Fri, 02 Feb 2001 11:35:45 -0800 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 11:35:45 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] PING Message-ID: <20010202113545.Z26541@linuxmafia.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from dagmar@dsurreal.org on Thu, Feb 01, 2001 at 07:34:53PM -0800 X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black X-fnord: +++ath X-CABAL: There is no CABAL. X-CABAL-URL: There is no http://linuxmafia.com/cabal/ X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. X-Eric-regex-matching: There are no stealth members of the conspiracy. From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 841 Lines: 26 begin Dagmar d'Surreal quotation: > Halooo... > > *kof*kof* This thing still works, right? It's _newly_ set up. CABAL hasn't had a mailing list since a brief period in its earliest days, so I finally got around to setting one up -- after figuring out and debugging the NNTP gateway support. (This mailing list is readable as cabal.conspire via any newsreader. You can thus read old posts and follow-up on them, and participate without having to carry an e-mail subscription.) Anyway: At the January 27 Cow Palace InstallFest, we decided on the next two dates: Saturday, March 10 (Cow Palace). Saturday, April 14 (Oakland Convention Center). I'll post those to the Web pages shortly. I just got back from the NYC LinuxWorld. -- Cheers, Re-elect Al Gore in '04. Rick Moen rick@linuxmafia.com From dagmar@dsurreal.org Fri Feb 02 18:36:04 2001 Received: from w082.z064002035.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net ([64.2.35.82] helo=evil.kung.foo) by uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 14OsYV-0004KZ-00; Fri, 02 Feb 2001 18:36:04 -0800 Received: from localhost (IDENT:dagmar@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by evil.kung.foo (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f132T9j00443; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 18:29:09 -0800 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 18:29:09 -0800 (PST) From: "Dagmar d'Surreal" To: Rick Moen cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] PING In-Reply-To: <20010202113545.Z26541@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 372 Lines: 9 Well, I was mainly asking because I just moved to San Fran a few months ago and am looking to find where the Linux people are out here. There were quite a number of them in NLUG back in Nashville, and after subscribing to two different lists here, waiting a week or so and seeing *nothing* come through either of them, I was starting to get a little worried. Hehehe. From rick@linuxmafia.com Sat Feb 03 12:49:43 2001 Received: from rick by uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 14P9ct-0003MK-00 for ; Sat, 03 Feb 2001 12:49:43 -0800 Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 12:49:43 -0800 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] PING Message-ID: <20010203124943.K26541@linuxmafia.com> References: <20010202113545.Z26541@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from dagmar@dsurreal.org on Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 06:29:09PM -0800 X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black X-fnord: +++ath X-CABAL: There is no CABAL. X-CABAL-URL: There is no http://linuxmafia.com/cabal/ X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. X-Eric-regex-matching: There are no stealth members of the conspiracy. Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 3004 Lines: 61 begin Dagmar d'Surreal quotation: > Well, I was mainly asking because I just moved to San Fran a few > months ago and am looking to find where the Linux people are out here. > There were quite a number of them in NLUG back in Nashville, and after > subscribing to two different lists here, waiting a week or so and > seeing *nothing* come through either of them, I was starting to get a > little worried. Oh, don't worry much. There are very active mailing lists for SVLUG, SlugLUG, NBLUG, SULUG, SacLUG and LUGOD. BUUG has a somewhat active list. BALUG and CCSFLUG's lists exist but are seldom posted to. EBLUG has a (lame) Web-based forum you can participate in if you wish -- and BUUG has one, too. CalLUG used to have a mailing list, but I'm not sure it does now. Hardly anyone has (yet) found out that _this_ mailing list / newsgroup exists. In a way, it was my final test platform for GNU Mailman's NNTP gateway functions. I have in mind to offer list/newsgroup hosting for free to CalLUG, for one thing. I might wait until I've added and debugged a search engine for the Web archive -- or might not. I've been working on this for a while: Mailing lists have a lot of disadvantages, that go away when you add (1) NNTP gatewaying, (2) ASCII archives, and (3) Web archives with (4) a search engine. I now have everything but the last piece. There are InstallFests run by CABAL/BALUG, SVLUG, NBLUG, LUGOD, and SacLUG. CABAL/BALUG's will be convenient to you (Muni and/or BART); the rest only if you have a car or ride along with someone. The groups' regular non-InstallFest meetings pose a similar problem: Only BALUG currently is holding meetings _in_ San Francisco (in Chinatown). You could get to CalLUG's (in Berkeley) on BART, and CABAL's (in Menlo Park) via CalTrain. CABAL used to be a _very_ active group in South of Market district, S.F., but lost its meeting location. (We hope that, if our sponsor Richard Couture finds another good location for his Linux-based CoffeeNet business, we can resume S.F. meetings.) If you hadn't found it already, let me point out my Bay Area Linux Events page: http://linuxmafia.com/bale/ So, I'm guessing one of the two lists you're on is balug-talk@balug.org, right? And this is the second? That would explain it. You may be interested in the SVLUG mailing list, and in the upcoming SVLUG meeting in north San Jose. SVLUG is probably the biggest Bay Area group, at the moment. The next meeting is this coming Wednesday evening, and features Eric Allman, author of Sendmail, talking about mail filtering. SVLUG meetings tend to be large and run mostly in lecture format, such that there's limited interaction among the attendees. Partly to compensate for that lack, SVLUG has after-meeting dinners, and also its InstallFests the 3rd Saturday of each month. -- Cheers, Before enlightenment, caffeine. Rick Moen After enlightenment, caffeine. rick@linuxmafia.com From conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Sat Feb 3 15:50:03 2001 Path: not-for-mail From: Rick Moen Subject: Re: [conspire] PING Newsgroups: cabal.conspire References: <20010202113545.Z26541@linuxmafia.com> Organization: Distribution: world User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991201 ("Polish") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.16 (i586)) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 15:48:17 -0800 Message-ID: <1c5i59.lqm.ln@linuxmafia.com> Xref: linuxmafia.com cabal.conspire:7 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 898 Lines: 20 I'm just following up my own post, this time using a newsreader. > Oh, don't worry much. There are very active mailing lists for SVLUG, > SlugLUG, NBLUG, SULUG, SacLUG and LUGOD. BUUG has a somewhat active list. > BALUG and CCSFLUG's lists exist but are seldom posted to. EBLUG has a > (lame) Web-based forum you can participate in if you wish -- and BUUG > has one, too. CalLUG used to have a mailing list, but I'm not sure it > does now. It turns out that CalLUG now not only has a mailing list, but has _four_ mailing lists. None of them carry much traffic, currently. I forgot to mention SMAUG in Santa Cruz: It also has a (new-ish) mailing list. And, if you run Debian GNU/Linux, there's the Bay Area Debian list. -- Cheers, Before enlightenment, caffeine. Rick Moen After enlightenment, caffeine. rick@linuxmafia.com From conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Sat Feb 10 18:40:03 2001 Path: not-for-mail From: Deirdre Saoirse Moen Newsgroups: cabal.conspire Organization: Summary: Keywords: User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991201 ("Polish") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.17 (i586)) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 18:39:52 -0800 Message-ID: Xref: linuxmafia.com cabal.conspire:8 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: [conspire] History of Unix URL Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 98 Lines: 6 Nice diagram of Unix relationships: http://perso.wanadoo.fr/levenez/unix/history.html _Deirdre From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Feb 13 17:39:38 2001 Received: from rick by uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 14Squv-0003l2-00 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:39:37 -0800 Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:39:37 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20010213173937.L7555@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] Mindsource BOFs, 2001-02-21 and 2001-03-28 Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 8894 Lines: 234 These are highly recommended. ----- Forwarded message from Mindsource Events ----- From: events@mindsrc.com (Mindsource Events) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:33:30 -0800 X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: rick@hugin.imat.com Subject: Mindsource BOF #43 Systems and Network Security in a Colocation Enviroment "Systems and Network Security in a Colocation Environment" MindSource BOF #43 Wednesday, February 21st, 2001 7PM until late In the 43rd of our Bird's of a Feather series MindSource is delighted to again present Marcos Della, of Cstone. We hope to have a second contributor at this event as well. Marcos will cover: * Stateful and Stateless network security in high traffic environment. * Systems security, basic tools and packages that every server should have. And then some esoteric issues. * Using third party software to secure large networks including tripwire, ssh, tcp wrappers, rsync, and more. How to do this when integrating multiple machines in large server farms. THE NEXT BOF: BoF 44 (wed 03/28) More on security and networks - stay tuned BOF Particulars: Where: Michaels At Shoreline (restaurant near the golf course in SL park) Addr: 2960 No. Shoreline Blvd., Mt View 650.962.1014 Date: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 Time: 6:00 Happy hour - no host bar 7:30 BOF Begins There will be an abundance of great food, and great people. This is an opportunity to network, meet your peers, and bone up on some essential leading-edge technical knowledge. ==> All about BOFs : MindSource organizes these semi-monthly 'Bird's of a Feather' get togethers (That's "BOF") for Unix system admins and others interested in Internet and Web related technologies, in the San Francisco Bay Area. The events are FREE and open to the public. We do ask that you please RSVP by sending mail to events@mindsource.com with rsvp as the subject... [ so we know can provide an abundance of hors d'oevres ] ==> MindSource Opportunities : We currently have a gong-load of openings, both permanent and contract, for Unix Systems Administrators, Network Engineers, and Web Engineers throughout the Silicon Valley area. All of our permanent and contract opportunities are available on our web pages, or by sending a blank email message to: jobs@mindsrc.com. For instructions on our mailbot send email to info@mindsrc.com. ==> More Info: Check out this page for more information, and a map to the BOF site: http://www.mindsrc.com/bof.html ==> To be _added_ to the bof mailing list send (empty body email) to: majordomo@mindsrc.com with the command "subscribe mindsource_bof" in the body of the email ==> Following please find a list of MindSource BOF's -- past and future BOF #42 * Countering DOS and SynFlood attacts - Ross Oliver BOF #41 * Mason / PHP and other ways of looking at prototyping web sites. BOF #40 * Load Balancing Web Sites at ISO layer 2.5; 3; and a little bit of 4. Marcos Della (Cstone); Scott Heyer of Hotmail, and Chad Jenison of Resonate. BOF #39 * An outline for designing large web infrastructures using two and three tier solutions. BOF #38 * May 22 Even more perl than that Randal Swartz (Stonehenge consulting) BOF #37 * Mar 22 Even more perl JT McDuffie (PLX Technolgies) BOF #36 * Feb 22 An Introduction to Perl Regular Expressions Warren Belfer (sun); JT McDuffie (PLX Technolgies) BOF #35 * Nov 99 Exploring the Cisco IOS - LIVE ROUTER LAB ! Scott Heyer (Microsoft); Ulf Zimmerman (Inktomi) Wedge Martin (MindSource) BOF #34 * Oct 99 Halloween Boooo(f) Wild Wild WANS : Frame Delay Bowen (Cheetah) Goletz BOF #33 * How not to be SOL with SQL Greg Junell (Cstone); Mike Hennahane (NetTempo) BOF #32 * Web Server Performance tuning Robert Harker (Harker Systems) BOF #31 * Feb 99 Building IPfilters for secure networks * Marcos Della (Cstone) , Eric Bataller (SolSoft) BOF #30 * Nov 1998 * An Evening with Hal: "Perl Survival Skills" * Hal Pomeranz (Dear Run) BOF #29 * Sept 1998 * Maintaining Back-end E-commerce sites * K. Mig Hoffman and Steven Pierce (MindSource) BOF #28 * July 1998 * URL Middleware * Hal Pomeranz, Glen Kosaka, Rob Riepel BOF #27 * March 1998 * Intro to CGI / perl scripting * Bill Ward, (MindSource) BOF #26 * February 1998 * Wireless IP * Alan Saldich of Metricom BOF #25 * Jan 1998 * Comparative Literature : Perl and TCL * Randal Schwartz - Brent Welch BOF #24 * Nov 1997 * NT administration for Unix Hacks * Ben Jones, Jim Truher of Open NT BOF #23 * Sept 1997 * Going Postal, and SPAM * Strata Rose, Robert Harker BOF #22 * August 1997 * Java for CGI; JDBC; Java Media Framework * Mark Chamness, Tim Freeman BOF #21 * July 1997 * Reliable IP Multicast * Brian Whetter - Global Cast BOF #20 * April 1997 * Perl CGI library * Bill Ward (Silicon Graphics), Robert Boucher, and JT McDuffie BOF #19 * Feb 1997 * Routing with OSPF and CIDR * Mark Mellis (Silicon Graphics) and Robert Harker BOF #18 * Nov 1996 * The Laws of Cyberspace * Dan Appleman and Greg Raifman (atty's) BOF #17 * Oct 1996 * Internet Plumbing - The Big Pipes * Bill Manning (IANA) and Carl Mueller (Best) BOF #16 * Aug 1996 * Evolving Intranets, and the integration of Company-Wide Resources * M. Strata Rose (Synopsys) BOF #15 * Jul 1996 * Free BSD, Apache Server, and SSL * Jordan Hubbard (Walnut Creek Software), Matt Dillon, and Sameer Parekh BOF #14 * May 1996 * Privacy on the Internet - Cypherpunks ! * Hugh Daniel, Derek Atkins and Sameer Parekh BOF #13 * Apr 1996 * Intro to Java and httpd Client-State Cookies * Headley Williamson (JavaSoft) and M. Strata Rose BOF #12 * Feb 1996 * Developing Web interfaces for Oracle, and Oracle Data Warehousing * Mike McGrath (Oracle Corporation) and Tom Blalock (Northern Telecom) BOF #11 * Jan 1996 * The Internet and the Law * Greg Raifman and Maureen Dorney (Grant Carey, et al) BOF #10 * Nov 1995 * Intro to Shell Programming and Perl * Dave Clark and Phil Cordier BOF #09 * Oct 1995 * WAIS - searching very large web space * Johnny Goldman (Synopsys), Stu Soffer, and Andrew Duquete BOF #08 * Aug 1995 * Intro to CGI-bin and Imagemaps * Chris Dow, Bob Palowoda (Sun MicroSystems) BOF #07 * May 1995 * IUMA, VRML, and HotJava * Will Hobbs (IUMA) , Kevin Long (SGI) , and Chuck McMannis (JavaSoft) BOF #06 * Apr 1995 * Internet Service Provision * Robert Berger (Internex) and Vin Maddux BOF #05 * Feb 1995 * Advanced HTML Design * M. Strata Rose and Chris Dow BOF #04 * Jan 1995 * 100 Dumb Unix Sys Admin Tricks * Dave Clark (MindSource) BOF #03 * Dec 1994 * The NCSA httpd server and Solaris for Intel * Bob Palowoda (Sun MicroSystems) BOF #02 * Nov 1994 * Firewalls and PPP * Robert Harker (Harker Seminars) BOF #01 * Oct 1994 * Perl for Unix Sys Admins * JT McDuffie copyright 2001 mindsource software engineers incorporated MindSource (r) is a registered trademark www.mindsrc.com www.mindsource.com Mail list services: Send a blank email note to one of the following accounts for the response desired: jobs@mindsrc.com # open jobs list info@mindsrc.com # info about MindSource map@mindsrc.com # receive a map to MindSource beer@mindsrc.com # beer micro-brew with us! subscribe@mindsrc.com # join the BOF mailing list bof@mindsrc.com # info about MindSource BOFs OR (r)eply to events@mindsrc.com with the indicated Subject: Subject: removeall # un-join all mailing lists Subject: remove # remove from BoF mailer Subject: rsvp # rsvp to the next BOF # ------ This message has been sent in accordance with Federal and State Legislation regarding unsolicited commercial e-mail (UCE). To have an address removed from future announcements please use the mailbot, above, or simply call our office: 650.254.8909(voice) 650.254.8907(fax). # ------ ----- End forwarded message ----- From conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Fri Apr 27 14:45:03 2001 Path: not-for-mail From: Rick Moen Newsgroups: cabal.conspire Organization: Distribution: world Summary: User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991201 ("Polish") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.16 (i586)) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 14:44:07 -0700 Message-ID: <77pcc9.hm3.ln@linuxmafia.com> Xref: linuxmafia.com cabal.conspire:10 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: [conspire] CABAL meeting will be held _earlier_, tomorrow Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 922 Lines: 21 Tomorrow, Saturday 2001-04-28, we'll have one of the regular, twice-monthly CABAL meeting in Menlo Park. Ordinarily, it would start at the standard time of 4 PM and run until either everyone's done or midnight, whichever comes first. _However_, because of an evening commitment Deirdre and I have in the East Bay, we've had to reschedule: Starting time: 10 AM Ending time: 3 PM (about) We will have the usual barbecue -- just as a lunch, rather than dinner. The weather looks to be spectacularly good. Among the topics we might want to cover: How to do residential ADSL, since we've just wired up and re-IPed the household to get connectivity through Raw Bandwidth Communications. -- Cheers, Everything is gone; Rick Moen Your life's work has been destroyed. rick@linuxmafia.com Squeeze trigger (yes/no)? -- David Carlson (winner, haiku error message contest) From mkonety@musambi.com Mon Feb 18 12:06:44 2002 Received: from foster.siteprotect.com ([64.26.0.17]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.34 #1 (Debian)) id 16cu3d-0000RX-00 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:06:42 -0800 Received: from Tippu (12-234-96-103.client.attbi.com [12.234.96.103]) by foster.siteprotect.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA19683 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:06:10 -0600 From: "Madhu Konety" To: Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:06:07 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Subject: [conspire] Need Help: Service Level Management Tool Beta Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1222 Lines: 34 Hi all, We are a startup building software products to address your application level service management needs. Our product, the App.Tuate, is for system administrators and IT operations managers to manage application infrastructure (web servers, load balancers, application servers) from the user service perspective. Yep there are a lot of management tools out there and App.Tuate is different in that we are not a monitoring and reporting tool but provide dynamic system resource management. The product provides automation to improve operational productive, ensure consistent service levels for users and optimizes infrastructure capacity. I would like to invite a you all to beta test our product and give us your valuable feedback. As part of the beta program, we might send in a engineer for your deployment and request your feedback from time to time. We also have a choice of exciting thank you gifts, you can choose from, to appreciate your efforts and support. The ideal test environment is Apache on Linux with mySQL or postgres and Java 1.2 or higher. So please hurry in, reply to this email and sign up for beta testing this exciting new product. Madhu Konety Musambi Corp. Email: qms@musambi.com From zambonigrill@yahoo.com Fri Jul 26 16:15:18 2002 Received: from web21307.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.128.232]) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17YEIo-0001MU-00 for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 16:15:18 -0700 Message-ID: <20020726231504.78234.qmail@web21307.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [32.97.110.142] by web21307.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 16:15:04 PDT Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 16:15:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Koki Zamboni To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [conspire] Submission - Web Cast: Using WebSphere Studio Application Developer on Linux Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 486 Lines: 16 Web Cast: Using WebSphere Studio Application Developer on Linux Learn how to build dynamic Web apps on Linux that interact with the IBM DB2 7.2 database or the Lotus Domino 5.0 collaboration server. You can register to attend the Webcast on July 31 at 10:00 a.m. Central. http://webevents.broadcast.com/ibm/developer/073102/index.asp?loc=12,lnxu03 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Jul 31 17:09:02 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17a3WY-00027C-00; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 17:09:02 -0700 Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 17:09:01 -0700 To: deirdre@deirdre.net, conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20020801000901.GF6467@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] (forw) [vox] [marc_news@merlins.org: [svlug] Here's the REVOLUTION OS screening info] Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 2435 Lines: 75 ----- Forwarded message from nbs ----- Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 17:06:41 -0700 From: nbs To: vox@lists.lugod.org, lug-nuts@saclug.org, talk@nblug.org, roselug@groups1.vip.scd.yahoo.com Subject: [vox] [marc_news@merlins.org: [svlug] Here's the REVOLUTION OS screening info] Reply-To: vox@lists.lugod.org Revolution OS screening in San Jose in August!!! -bill! pr@lugod.org http://www.lugod.org/ ----- Forwarded message from Marc MERLIN ----- Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 15:35:38 -0700 From: Marc MERLIN Subject: [svlug] Here's the REVOLUTION OS screening info To: svlug@lists.svlug.org ----- Forwarded message from "J.T.S. Moore" ----- Marc, Thank you again for helping out on getting REVOLUTION OS booked into a movie theater in the Bay Area. The press screening will be free and open to the public. So feel free to notify whoever you wish. The press screening is at 10 AM on Wednesday, August 14, at the Camera 3 Cinemas at 288 South Second Street (corner of 2nd and San Carlos) in downtown San Jose. REVOLUTION OS will open on August 23 at one of Camera Cinemas theatres. For more information check the Camera Cinemas website: http://www.cameracinemas.com/coming.htm I know SVLUG already has its August and September meetings scheduled, but you might want to consider a SVLUG night at the movies to see REVOLUTION OS. The Austin LUGs did this, and it was a great success. I hope we cross paths at LinuxWorld. I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on the current state of Linux and the Open Source movement. I get asked about that frequently, but I only have an outsider's perspective. Thanks again for the help. Sincerely, J.T.S. Moore ----- End forwarded message ----- -- "A mouse is a device used to point at the xterm you want to type in" - A.S.R. Microsoft is to operating systems & security .... .... what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ | Finger marc_f@merlins.org for PGP key _______________________________________________ svlug mailing list svlug@lists.svlug.org http://lists.svlug.org/lists/listinfo/svlug ----- End forwarded message ----- _______________________________________________ vox mailing list vox@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox ----- End forwarded message ----- From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Aug 11 19:59:25 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17e5QT-0008UV-00 for ; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 19:59:25 -0700 Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 19:59:25 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20020812025925.GL25331@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] (forw) fsf fundraising party invite Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 744 Lines: 33 ----- Forwarded message from Christopher Reed ----- From: Christopher Reed Reply-To: reed@affero.com Organization: Affero To: installers@linuxmafia.com Subject: fsf fundraising party invite Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 19:32:29 -0700 Hi CABAL, I would like to invite you all to a fundraising pary we are having for the fsf on Wednesday the 14th of August during Linux World. Here is the invite to the Party. If you could please pass it on everyone in CABAL that would be great. http://www.affero.com/fsf Thanks - Chris -- Was I helpful? Let others know: http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=creed&p=schools ++++++++++++++++++++++ Office: 415 371 9900 reed@affero.com ----- End forwarded message ----- From rick@linuxmafia.com Fri Aug 16 22:09:46 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17fvqI-0002Kd-00; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 22:09:42 -0700 Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 22:09:42 -0700 To: Duncan MacKinnon Cc: N N , installers@linuxmafia.com, conspire@linuxmafia.com, mhigashi@digitalflock.org Message-ID: <20020817050942.GU9654@linuxmafia.com> Reply-To: installers@linuxmafia.com References: <20020815182140.90298.qmail@web10106.mail.yahoo.com> <20020816213216.GU14954@randometry.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020816213216.GU14954@randometry.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] Come TOMORROW! (was: Installfest dates??? Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1301 Lines: 32 Quoting Duncan MacKinnon (duncan@randometry.org): > We had tentatively planned one on the 24th of August but I will be out of > town and we need more volunteers than we had for that date. > I don't see one scheduled for that date on: > Argh. That's what I've told a couple of people would be the next date. However, since I just heard from Mike Higashi that he won't be able attend (ConJose staff meeting), and now I hear that you won't either, I think it's no-go until September. However, anyone wanting installation help _should_ attend the 11th anniversary Linux Picnic in Sunnyvale. It's _tomorrow_ (Saturday), and I'll be running the InstallFest there on behalf of SVLUG, EBLUG, CABAL, and LUGOD. http://www.linuxpicnic.org/ RSVP if you can, but show up anyway. I will have my installfest server, a LAN, and all of these BSD and Linux distributions and applications with me: http://linuxmafia.com/cabal/installfest/#distros -- "Is it not the beauty of an asynchronous form of discussion that one can go and make cups of tea, floss the cat, fluff the geraniums, open the kitchen window and scream out it with operatic force, volume, and decorum, and then return to the vexed glowing letters calmer of mind and soul?" -- The Cube, forum3000.org From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Aug 20 15:19:11 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17hHL9-00071w-00; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 15:19:07 -0700 Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 15:19:07 -0700 To: star@starshine.org Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com, installers@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20020820221906.GX9654@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] (forw) Install fest RSVP Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 965 Lines: 35 Heather, would you please disable mention on www.balug.org of the Aug. 24 instalfest? I'm being deluged in these. We will almost certainly have an installfest on Sept. 14 or 28 (2nd or 4th Saturday), but can't confirm that until RobAusCo posts dates past August at http://www.robertaustin.com/showdates.htm . ----- Forwarded message from Kari Mansour ----- Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 14:20:07 -0700 From: Kari Mansour Subject: Install fest RSVP To: installers@linuxmafia.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (Win98; I) Please count this as an RSVP. I will bring a Cobalt Qube3 and maybe an old 486 -- ********************* Kari Mansour ComforTech Consulting 408-202-8224 408-720-1549 dragoon@pacbell.net kari@comfortechconsuling.com www.comfortechconsulting.com We help you become comfortable and proficient in the use of your computer or computer network. ----- End forwarded message ----- From duncan@randometry.org Tue Aug 20 17:07:43 2002 Received: from adsl-63-192-8-228.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net ([63.192.8.228] helo=spin.randometry.org ident=mail) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17hJ2B-0002MI-00; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:07:39 -0700 Received: from duncan by spin.randometry.org with local (Exim 3.32 #1 (Debian)) id 17hIq3-0006qw-00; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 16:55:07 -0700 Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 16:55:07 -0700 To: Rick Moen Cc: star@starshine.org, conspire@linuxmafia.com, installers@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20020820235507.GX14954@randometry.org> References: <20020820221906.GX9654@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020820221906.GX9654@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: Duncan MacKinnon Subject: [conspire] Re: (forw) Install fest RSVP Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1191 Lines: 43 begin Rick Moen quotation: > Heather, would you please disable mention on www.balug.org of the Aug. > 24 instalfest? I'm being deluged in these. > > We will almost certainly have an installfest on Sept. 14 or 28 (2nd or > 4th Saturday), but can't confirm that until RobAusCo posts dates past > August at http://www.robertaustin.com/showdates.htm . Ahh, I'm heading out the door so sorry to be so brief. I will out of town for the 14th I'd like the 28th for me. Best, Duncan > > > ----- Forwarded message from Kari Mansour ----- > > Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 14:20:07 -0700 > From: Kari Mansour > Subject: Install fest RSVP > To: installers@linuxmafia.com > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (Win98; I) > > Please count this as an RSVP. I will bring a Cobalt Qube3 and maybe an > old 486 > > -- > ********************* > Kari Mansour > ComforTech Consulting > 408-202-8224 408-720-1549 > dragoon@pacbell.net > kari@comfortechconsuling.com > www.comfortechconsulting.com > > We help you become comfortable and proficient in the use of your > computer or computer network. > > > > ----- End forwarded message ----- From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Aug 21 14:44:59 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17hdHf-0001RW-00 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 14:44:59 -0700 Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 14:44:59 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20020821214459.GL9654@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: [conspire] (forw) REVOLUTION OS showtimes and directions Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 2087 Lines: 56 ----- Forwarded message from "J.T.S. Moore" ----- Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 14:35:01 -0700 From: "J.T.S. Moore" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 (Macintosh; U; PPC) To: rick@linuxmafia.com Subject: REVOLUTION OS showtimes and directions Rick, I know you are a key conduit of info for BALE and CABAL. I was wondering if you could do me a big favor and help me pass along information about the Silicon Valley opening of my documentary, REVOLUTION OS. I can't remember if you have actually seen the film, but you are referenced in it and during an Installfest you are on screen a couple of times. Anyway, it has been a real challenge to get REVOLUTION OS booked into an arthouse theatre in the Bay Area. None of the theatre bookers believed there was much of an audience for a film about Linux and Open Source. I hope they are wrong. Luckily, after months and months of lobbying, Camera Cinemas has agreed to play the film. REVOLUTION OS will open this Friday at Camera's Towne 3 Theatre in San Jose. Below are the directions and showtimes for REVOLUTION OS: REVOLUTION OS will open this Friday, August 23, at Camera Cinemas Towne 3 Theatre located at 1433 The Alameda in San Jose about a mile south of 880. The showtimes are: 5:10 PM 7:15 PM 9:20 PM. On Saturday and Sunday there will be a matinee at 3:05 PM. If the film has a good opening weekend, Camera Cinemas said they will keep playing it for another week. For more info about the Towne 3 Theatre you can call (408) 287-1433. The Yahoo map for the Towne 3 Theatre is: http://maps.yahoo.com/py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap&addr=1433+The+Alameda&city=San+Jose&state=CA&csz=San+Jose,+CA+95126-2653&slt=37.333357&sln=-121.914240&name=&zip=95126-2653&country=us&&BFKey=&BFCat=&BFClient=&mag=9&desc=&cs=9&newmag=8&poititle=&poi=&ds=n I appreciate any help you can give me in notifying the Open Source faithful. In case anyone asks, the DVD should be available at the end of September. Thanks again. Sincerely, J.T.S. Moore Director, REVOLUTION OS ----- End forwarded message ----- From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Aug 22 01:10:20 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17hn2q-0001Te-00 for ; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 01:10:20 -0700 Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 01:10:20 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20020822081020.GU9654@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] Red Hat "null" beta (7.3.94) available at CABAL meetings Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 3380 Lines: 71 As some of you folks know, I finally got around to pulling my CDR burner out of its plastic bag and getting it running. It was mounted in my K6 tower at the recent Linux11 picnic in Sunnyvale, such that I was able to burn CDs for people. I've just downloaded the Red Hat pre-7.4 beta released a few days ago, and will have it at the CABAL meeting on Saturday in Menlo Park. Feel free to bring machine you want to try it on. If you'd like a copy burned for you, bring blank CDRs -- or money to bribe me with. ;-> Here's the collection we'll have on hand (http://linuxmafia.com/cabal/installfest/#distros): * Apple Darwin (BSD) v. 1.4.1 for i386, v. 1.3.1 for PPC * Borland Kylix Open Edition 2.0 for i386 Linux * Conectiva Linux 8.0 (4 disks) for i386 * Corel Linux 1.2 AKA "second edition" for i386 * Corel WordPerfect 8.0 Download Personal Edition for i386 Linux * CRUX 0.9.3 for i386 * Debian Official "woody" 3.0r0 for i386 (7 disks) * Debian "woody" 3.0 w/Progeny Graphical Installer for i386 * Debian Official "potato" 2.2r3 for PPC (1 disk) and SPARC (3 disks) * Debian Official "woody" 3.0r0 for DEC Alpha (7 disks) * Debian Unofficial "woody" pre-3.0 2001-12-27 netinst for i386 and PPC * DemoLinux 3.0 for i386 * EasyLinux 1.2 for i386 (2 disks) * FreeBSD 4.6.1rc2 "stable" for i386 * FreeBSD 5.0 "current" 2001-08 snapshot (6 disks) for i386 * Gentoo Linux 1.2 for i686 * Knoppix 3.1 for i386 * Libranet 2.0 "essentials disk" for i386 * Linuxcare Bootable Toolbox 2.0 for i386 * Linux-Mandrake 8.2 (3 disks) for i586 * LinuxPPC "2000 / MacWorld CD" for PPC * LNX-BBC 1.618 for i386 * Lunar Linux 20020503 for i386 * Lycoris Desktop/LX build 44 (3 disks) for i386 * MkLinux pre-R1 (2nd image) for PPC * Microsoft NetShow 2.00 build 2.51 for i386 Linux * NetBSD 1.5.2 for alpha, i386, macppc, pmax, sparc, vax, sparc64, sun3. * NetBSD 1.5.2 for amiga, arc, arm32, atari, cobalt, hp300, hpcmips, mac68k, mvme68k, news68k, next68k, pc532 * OpenBSD 3.0 (3 disks) for i386 * OpenOffice.org 1.0.0 for i386 Linux and pre-6.0 alpha build 641c for PPC Linux * Progeny 1.0 (2 disks) for i386 * Red Hat 7.3 (3 disks) and 7.1 & 7.2 (2 disks each) for i386 * Red Hat 7.3.94 beta code named "null" (5 disks) for i386 * Simply GNUStep Stage 2 pre1 for i386 * Slackware 8.1 for i386 * Stampede Linux 0.90 beta "happy valley" for i586 * Storm Linux 2.0.6 for i386 * Sorcerer GNU Linux 2002-05-17 for i386 * SOT Office 2002 for i386 Linux * Source Mage 20020323 and 20020527beta for i386 * Sun Star Office 5.2 for i386 Linux * SuSE Linux "evaluation" 7.0 for i386, 6.3 for PPC * SuSE Linux "live evaluation" (demo disk) 8.0 for i386 * Turbo Linux Server 8.0 "viper" (2 disks) for i386 * Turbo Linux Workstation (English) 6.1 for i386 * Vermillion 7.1.1 (2 disks) and 6.2.4 for i386 * Yellow Dog 2.3 for PPC I have dhcp services set up (finally). Yay! -- "Is it not the beauty of an asynchronous form of discussion that one can go and make cups of tea, floss the cat, fluff the geraniums, open the kitchen window and scream out it with operatic force, volume, and decorum, and then return to the vexed glowing letters calmer of mind and soul?" -- The Cube, forum3000.org From star@starshine.org Thu Aug 22 22:23:43 2002 Received: from antares.starshine.org ([216.240.40.177] helo=antares.in.starshine.org ident=postfix) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17i6v8-0004yn-00; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 22:23:43 -0700 Received: from gemini.starshine.org (gemini.starshine.org [216.240.40.169]) by antares.in.starshine.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB720397D; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 18:07:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gemini.starshine.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id C875A140A8; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 22:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 22:26:40 -0700 To: Rick Moen Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com, installers@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20020823052640.GB7643@starshine.org> References: <20020820221906.GX9654@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020820221906.GX9654@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: star@starshine.org (Heather Stern) Subject: [conspire] Re: (forw) Install fest RSVP Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1464 Lines: 47 On Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 03:19:07PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: > Heather, would you please disable mention on www.balug.org of the Aug. > 24 instalfest? I'm being deluged in these. Done. Also updated the date on the index and meetNow pages, though we want to confirm the speaker before naming names. > We will almost certainly have an installfest on Sept. 14 or 28 (2nd or > 4th Saturday), but can't confirm that until RobAusCo posts dates past > August at http://www.robertaustin.com/showdates.htm . Well, let me know as soon as you're sure. If it's on the earlier one I may be able to convince some techie trekkies to come and play UI games for people. . | . Heather Stern --->*<--- Starshine Technical Services ' | ` BALUG Webmaster > ----- Forwarded message from Kari Mansour ----- > > Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 14:20:07 -0700 > From: Kari Mansour > Subject: Install fest RSVP > To: installers@linuxmafia.com > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (Win98; I) > > Please count this as an RSVP. I will bring a Cobalt Qube3 and maybe an > old 486 > > -- > ********************* > Kari Mansour > ComforTech Consulting > 408-202-8224 408-720-1549 > dragoon@pacbell.net > kari@comfortechconsuling.com > www.comfortechconsulting.com > > We help you become comfortable and proficient in the use of your > computer or computer network. > > > > ----- End forwarded message ----- From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Aug 28 21:29:22 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17kGvq-0005Ew-00 for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 21:29:22 -0700 Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 21:29:22 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20020829042922.GS12787@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: [conspire] (forw) REVOLUTION OS held over, new showtimes Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1340 Lines: 38 ----- Forwarded message from "J.T.S. Moore" ----- Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 14:39:57 -0700 From: "J.T.S. Moore" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 (Macintosh; U; PPC) To: Rick Moen Subject: REVOLUTION OS held over, new showtimes Rick, Thank you for notifying BALE about REVOLUTION OS, and for attending Sunday's show. As it turns out, REVOLUTION OS was the number one grossing film at the Towne 3 Theatre this weekend. So Camera Cinemas is extending the run of REVOLUTION OS for at least another week. >From Friday, August 30, through Thursday, September 5, the new showtimes at the Towne 3 will be: 5:30 PM and 9:35 PM. For more info about the Towne 3 Theatre you can call (408) 287-1433. The Yahoo map for the Towne 3 Theatre is: http://maps.yahoo.com/py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap&addr=1433+The+Alameda&city=San+Jose&state=CA&csz=San+Jose,+CA+95126-2653&slt=37.333357&sln=-121.914240&name=&zip=95126-2653&country=us&&BFKey=&BFCat=&BFClient=&mag=9&desc=&cs=9&newmag=8&poititle=&poi=&ds=n If you could post this e-mail to BALE and CABAL, I would greatly appreciate it. In case anyone asks, the special edition DVD should be available at the end of September. Thank you again for your help. Sincerely, J.T.S. Moore Director, REVOLUTION OS ----- End forwarded message ----- From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Sep 26 02:04:32 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17uUZT-0004yL-00; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 02:04:31 -0700 Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 02:04:30 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20020926090430.GS24880@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] CABAL News -- Sat. Sept 28 Installfest and meeting Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 8689 Lines: 214 CABAL News, Thursday, Sept. 26, 2002 ------------------------------------ 1. BALE renovation. My Bay Area Linux Events calendar page (http://linuxmafia.com/bale/) needed an overhaul: The big problem wasn't its haphazard layout, but rather that I maintained it 100% manually in vi, editing raw HTML. I've just finally moved it over to a PHP4-generated page, pulling "event" data from a MySQL database. I haven't properly repopulated the latter yet, and haven't yet enabled the code to automatically add repeating events, auto-extending the calendar three months out. But soon it'll be a _lot_ better. I'll need to catch up on some of the groups' changes: Smaug moved its meetings one hour earlier, SF OpenBSD UG has changed days, SacLUG and LUGOD have changed meeting locations. Silicon Valley Perl UG seems as if it may have died. 2. Installfest and CABAL meeting. _This_ Saturday, 10-4, we'll have another Linux / BSD installfest at the Robert Austin Show inside the Oakland Convention Center. Join us as event staff, and you can get into the RobAusCo (which is a big indoor fleamarket for new hardware/software goods). Details: http://linuxmafia.com/cabal/installfest/ You don't have to need help. You're welcome to just come and hang out, and chat. _Or_ you can come to the regular 4th-Saturday CABAL meeting afterwards, starting 6 PM in Menlo Park. We'll probably run the BBQ, as usual. CABAL meetings are relaxed and comfortable compared to the RobAusCo installfests, and you're _still_ welcome to bring your machines along and work on them or install your choice of Linux distributions on them. (About which, please see item #4, below.) 3. _Last_ Foothill College Electronics Fleamarket of the year For even lower-priced gear including some incredible bargains, there's the Foothill College swap in Los Altos, http://www.electronicsfleamarket.com/ . Because it's outdoors in the Foothill College parking lot, it can't be held during the rainy season, so it runs April through October -- every month on the 2nd Saturday. Therefore, the LAST swap of 2002 will be the next one, October 12. Come extremely early for the best bargains. Particularly determined shoppers actually show up as early as 4 AM, bearing flashlights. 4. New Linux Distributions As many of you know, I keep a pretty large range of Linux and BSD distributions around in CD-ROM form, and will gladly duplicate them for people. (_You_ bring blank CDs to write to, and you get to supervise the CD-burner machine and label your disks.) The full list of available offerings is at http://linuxmafia.com/cabal/installfest/#distros The Linux world has been very busy with new distribution versions. Here are a few: Linux-Mandrake 9.0 Out less than a day -- and I just now retrieved the last of its three disks, and verified their integrity. I'm burning a set for my collection, right this minute. Mandrake is one of the candy-store desktop-oriented distributions. Lots of people seem to like it. GNOME 2.0.2, KDE 3.0.3, Mozilla 1.1(!), OpenOffice.org 1.0.1, kernel 2.4.19, etc. Compiler is GCC 3.2. Printing subsystem is CUPS. All the plug-and-play hardware detection that they can manage. One local mirror that's not so far hammered: http://sluglug.ucsc.edu/pub/Mandrake/iso/ Red Hat 8.0 It's been propagating out to all the mirror sites, for the last couple of days -- but won't be opened up to the public until next Monday. You won't be able to get a copy before then without inside help -- sorry. (If you're in a big hurry, you can get the preceding 7.3.94 beta, but should probably wait.) SuSE 8.1 beta (sort of) Although you can't yet get SuSE beyond 7.0 free of charge in ISO form, it turns out that UnitedLinux beta3 is very strongly based on SuSE 8.1 betas, right down to using YaST2, KDE3, and GNOME2 -- presumably because SuSE engineers did most of the work. http://download.unitedlinux.com/cgi-bin/reg.pl Word seems to have gotten out; the ftp server is hammered. But this is basically getting a slightly sparse two-CD SuSE 8.1 prerelease for free. (Disc 3 is source code only.) However, less hammered is SCO Linux (formerly Caldera OpenLinux) 4.0 beta, which turns out to be exactly the same thing -- UnitedLinux beta3. http://www.sco.com/products/beta/ If you're getting SuSE the orthodox way, and don't want a boxed set: ftp://ftp.suse.com/pub/suse/i386/evaluation-7.0/evaluation-7.0.iso Single-CD download version, several revs behind the boxed sets. Complete distro, despite its filename. SuSE is a very nice "desktop" distribution, but their 7.0 "eval" has frustratingly trailing-edge versions and is of course only a single CD. This is no accident: You're supposed to be motivated to buy one of the incredibly full-featured boxed sets (Personal or Professional editions). Which is fair, I guess -- but the UnitedLinux CDs are an intriguing way to attempt a kind of end-run. Lycoris beta For the adventuresome, there's a new Lycoris beta (build 51) ftp://ftp.stealth.net/pub/mirrors/ftp.lycoris.com/beta/ Current release is still build 46. Lycorix Desktop/LX is one of the leading "desktop" distibutions, and was formerly named Redmond Linux. Libranet Desktop-oriented distribution (i386-only) w/simple, friendly installer. Publisher is in Vancouver. Based on & compatible w/Debian 3.0. Available either in a boxed set of v. 2.7 with e-mail support and 2 CDs, or as (cheaper) download of the v. 2.7 ISOs, or as free downloadable ISO of v. 2.0's 1st CD. I recommend the latter: ftp://ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/distributions/libranet/2.0/libranet-2.0-essential.iso A few weeks ago, I was lucky enough to grab the two-ISO 2.7 beta, which subsequently seems to have been pulled from the Net. Sorry, guys; you have to move quickly. ;-> I _am_ glad to make copies. If people really want, I can put the ISOs up somewhere. Additions to Libranet 2.7's Debian 3.0 base: Installer (ncurses-type). Graphical administrative tools. RealPlayer & Flash, Netscape Communicator, Opera 6.0. Installs w/kernel 2.4.19. GNOME 2.0.1, KDE 3.0.3, XFree86 4.2. Improved hardware autodetection (incl. sound, USB, printers, Zip drives). (Libranet 2.0 has most of that, just older revs.) I _highly_ recommend Libranet as a desktop distribution: Easy installer, all the goodies, everything up to date. _And_ it's compatible with Debian so you can _keep_ it current and secure without going crazy. What's not to like? CRUX 0.94 Heard about the BSDs, their relative simplicity, and their "ports" system for installing software? Here's a distributions that does all of that on Linux, instead. http://www.crux.nu/ It's 686-optimised, lightweight, simple. It has quite modern everything, but no bloat whatsoever. Vermillion Many of us who've used Red Hat Linux for years have gotten fed up with certain quality-control problems. The late, lamented VA Linux software division did something about it: a RH-variant distribution called RH-VALE (Red Hat with VA Linux Enhancements). RH-VALE was generally a more-reliable Red Hat, with a better set of drivers in its installer and fixes in any number of areas. Often, I've used RH-VALE successfully on machines where RH's standard installer can't even deal with the hardware at all. After leaving VA Linux (which, alas, has devolved into a proprietary sofwtare firm), Michael E. Jennings decided he wasn't going to allow RH-VALE to die. So, with the help of some others, he's continuing to maintain it -- as Vermillion. http://www.kainx.org/vermillion/ I'm right now pulling down his variant form of RH 7.3, which he's calling Vermillion 7.3.1 alpha9. (Michael's alphas are generally of _very_ high quality. He just uses the term to make you understand he's not promising it'll work, as he's not done with developing it.) I already have on hand his take on RH 7.1, Vermillion 7.1.1 -- and also one or two earlier RH-VALE releases, which probably are too old. LindowsOS Mentioned in order to stress that it's specfically DISRECOMMENDED: Lindows.com's LindowsOS distribution defaults to auto-login using the root account. Argh. That's just clueless and a willful disservice to the company's customers. You'll never see this thing in my collection, unless/until this ghastly design error is reversed. 'Hope to see you folks on Saturday! -- Cheers, "Don't use Outlook. Outlook is really just a security Rick Moen hole with a small e-mail client attached to it." rick@linuxmafia.com -- Brian Trosko in r.a.sf.w.r-j From rick@linuxmafia.com Fri Sep 27 13:53:07 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17v26k-0004Ca-00 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 13:53:06 -0700 Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 13:53:06 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20020927205306.GO19163@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] Installfest follow-up Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 276 Lines: 6 I forgot to mention that the Robert Austin Company, which runs the computer shows at which we have installfests, charges $8 admission at the door, _but_ you can get around that if you get a coupon mailed to you from a Web form on their site: http://www.robertaustin.com/ From zambonigrill@yahoo.com Tue Oct 08 11:32:35 2002 Received: from web21308.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.128.174]) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 17yz9c-00063K-00 for ; Tue, 08 Oct 2002 11:32:26 -0700 Message-ID: <20021008182837.20607.qmail@web21308.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [32.97.110.76] by web21308.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 08 Oct 2002 11:28:37 PDT Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 11:28:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Koki Zamboni To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [conspire] Cultured Perl: Genetic algorithms, the next generation Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 987 Lines: 26 Cultured Perl: Genetic algorithms, the next generation Looking for advanced examples of genetic algorithms with Perl? This article focuses on advanced material on genetic algorithms in Perl. Genetic algorithms have well-defined steps, and some of the code here draws upon code in the previous article without explaining the details. Before you begin, you should have Perl 5.6.0 or later installed on your system. The examples might work with earlier versions of Perl and on platforms other than the common UNIX ones (such as Windows), but they have not been tested in those environments, and it might take extra work to get them running. This article - http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-genperl2/?t=gr,lnxu03=nextgen Previous article - http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-genperl/?t=gr,lnxu03=genperl __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Oct 08 11:44:59 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 17yzLb-0007W4-00 for ; Tue, 08 Oct 2002 11:44:47 -0700 Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 11:44:38 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Cultured Perl: Genetic algorithms, the next generation Message-ID: <20021008184438.GT11235@linuxmafia.com> References: <20021008182837.20607.qmail@web21308.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021008182837.20607.qmail@web21308.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 762 Lines: 18 Quoting Koki Zamboni (zambonigrill@yahoo.com): > Cultured Perl: Genetic algorithms, the next generation This is a spammer who, acting on behalf of IBM, goes around posting these ads for Developerworks contents to Linux user groups mailing lists and newsgroups all around the world. He/she changes sending addresses frequently as they're locked out, but it's always a Yahoo address. Accordingly, I'm temporarily specified that all mail from *.yahoo.com will be held for approval (which I ordinarily do very quickly). Apologies to all the legitimate list-members who use Yahoo Mail. -- Cheers, There are only 10 types of people in this world -- Rick Moen those who understand binary arithmetic and those who don't. rick@linuxmafia.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Oct 10 14:56:10 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 17zlHu-0001RH-00 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 14:56:10 -0700 Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 14:56:10 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20021010215610.GA32371@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: [conspire] A satisfactory end to the developerWorks problem Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 4812 Lines: 102 Mr. Michael O'Connell is editor-in-chief of IBM's developerWorks Web site. I won't forward his explanation (because it was private mail), but here's my reply. Among O'Connell's points was that the developerWorks representative used changing Yahoo addresses not to hide or to conceal the IBM affiliation, but rather to avoid having ibm.com itself overwhelmed by spam(!) He says they'll find better ways to verify that announcements will be welcome before broadcasting them to mailing lists and newsgroups. (Accordingly, I've removed *.yahoo.com from the "hold posts for listowner approval" list.) ----- Forwarded message from Rick Moen ----- Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 14:48:41 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: Michael O'Connell Subject: Re: Spam mail advertising DeveloperWorks being sent to Linux user groups' mailing lists Dear Mr. O'Connell: Thank you for your reply. There are indeed ironies to be found, and my calling the postings "spam" was regrettably a bit polemical. In part because of the pervasive problem of (actual) spam, unmoderated mailing lists have increasingly switched to holding for approval any post from a non-subscriber. Your dW representative's posts thus tend to require manual handling by listadmins -- which alone does not endear him/her. As you'll have noticed, my Linux group's mailing list is very low-traffic and local in focus. Many others are like that, too -- with a deliberate attempt to keep their S/N high. Such lists are easily swamped and functionally destroyed by "announcement" posts from people not involved with the sponsoring group -- and such has in fact happened, repeatedly. That experience is another reason for the widespread shift to holding mail from non-subscribers: It's like having your bridge match interrupted by strangers entering your living room to bellow out public service announcments. (As an aside, the notion that the dW posts weren't "commercial" because they aren't selling anything is a bit thin: If International Business Machines has stopped being commercial, I'm going to have to sell my stock.) Then, too, most of us already follow developerWorks. Even if we don't, we nonetheless have digest mechanisms like LinuxToday.com, lwn.net, and comp.os.linux.announce to call our attention to articles, events, and software releases of interest. Relevant to that, and as a point of information, I've seen each posting from your dW representative repeated about twelve times, once on each of various technical mailing lists. You may think of them as individual, handcrafted messages to reach various on-line communities, but, because of those communities' interconnectedness, the effect is rather different. I also have a suggestion: All you really need to do is create a broadcast-type "developerworks-announce" mailing list. (By "broadcast-type", I mean a list to which only the listowner or designated insiders would be able to post. Other recipients would be unable to reply on-list.) Not only would individuals be then able to receive announcements if they so chose, but also so would Linux community mailing lists. That is, for example, if I as listowner of CABAL's mailing list wanted to ensure that our members received all such announcements, I would need only to subscribe my mailing list to "developerworks-announce". I quite sympathize with IBM's dilemma as to how best to filter incoming spam. Perhaps the most practical solution would be interpose a Unix host (Linux, AIX, or whatever suits your IT staff) as a mail forwarder prior to Lotus Notes receiving the mail, and use either SpamAssassin with Vipul's Razor or Bogofilter to attempt to trap unwanted mail. There is one non-technical obstacle to such remedies, which I know from bitter experience in decades of IT work: Spam tends to become a corporate political football. Some corporate staff will reflexively suspect any filtering of incoming mail, and never be satisfied that mail _they_ want/need isn't being discarded. This is why IT departments tend to shy sideways from the problem, rather than meet it head-on. In light of that obstacle, one workaround is to have SpamAssassin or Bogofilter merely mark inbound mail (e.g., insert "X-Spam-Status" headers) and pass it through: The user can then, at his option, either quarantine suspect mail or discard it, by using the filtering abilities of his user mail agent (e.g., the Lotus Notes client). Or do nothing with it at all -- or even autoremove the markings, if he so wishes. Relevant URLs: http://spamassassin.org/ SpamAssassin http://razor.sourceforge.net/ Vipul's Razor http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/bogofilter/ Bogofilter I hope this is of use to you. Best Regards, Rick Moen ----- End forwarded message ----- From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Oct 10 17:21:15 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 17znYJ-00059Y-00 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 17:21:15 -0700 Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 17:21:15 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20021011002115.GK32418@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] CABAL meeting this Saturday cancelled Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 331 Lines: 10 Deirdre and I are going to be out of town on Saturday. (We'll be attending Linux Journal editor Don Marti's wedding in the L.A. area.) So, unfortunately, no CABAL meeting on Saturday the 12th. Sorry. -- Cheers, Rick Moen FORTH heart if honk then. rick@linuxmafia.com From mhigashi@myrddin.imat.com Thu Oct 10 21:36:18 2002 Received: from adsl-207-214-84-142.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net ([207.214.84.142] helo=myrddin.imat.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 17zrX7-00019x-00 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 21:36:17 -0700 Received: (from mhigashi@localhost) by myrddin.imat.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g9B4Qg404714 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 21:26:42 -0700 Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 21:26:41 -0700 From: Mike Higashi To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] CABAL meeting this Saturday cancelled Message-ID: <20021010212641.A4661@myrddin.imat.com> References: <20021011002115.GK32418@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021011002115.GK32418@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.21i Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 329 Lines: 9 On Thu, Oct 10, 2002 at 05:21:15PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: > Deirdre and I are going to be out of town on Saturday. (We'll be > attending Linux Journal editor Don Marti's wedding in the L.A. area.) > So, unfortunately, no CABAL meeting on Saturday the 12th. Sorry. Congrats to Don! The chickmagnet magic strikes again? Mike From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Oct 10 21:41:19 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 17zrbz-0001Bl-00 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 21:41:19 -0700 Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 21:41:19 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] CABAL meeting this Saturday cancelled Message-ID: <20021011044119.GR32418@linuxmafia.com> References: <20021011002115.GK32418@linuxmafia.com> <20021010212641.A4661@myrddin.imat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021010212641.A4661@myrddin.imat.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 355 Lines: 12 Quoting Mike Higashi (mhigashi@imat.com): > Congrats to Don! The chickmagnet magic strikes again? I think so. Tabinda fell into the babe-o-magnetic field, and it was all over. -- Cheers, There are only 10 types of people in this world -- Rick Moen those who understand binary arithmetic and those who don't. rick@linuxmafia.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Fri Oct 18 23:09:47 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 182mnz-0005UF-00 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 2002 23:09:47 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 23:09:46 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20021019060946.GK8904@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] Resizing NTFS Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 2920 Lines: 69 Lots of people come to Linux events with their MS-Windows preloads, wanting us to set up dual-boot. Which we've been able to do, thanks to resizer utilities like FIPS, GNU Parted, etc. Recently, Microsoft has thrown a curveball at us: Recent preloads have tended to use NTFS filesystems, rather than FAT. Most resizing tools -- and all of the common open-source ones -- are FAT-only. This is starting to become a significant roadblock. After much checking, I've found the following options: -- four proprietary tools that are retail-only. -- one proprietary tool that's lawfully redistributable and 30-day shareware. -- one open-source tool. They are detailed below. 1. Retail-only, proprietary: o PowerQuest Corp.'s Partition Magic: $80, retail / pay first o Paragon Software's Partition Manager: $40, retail / pay first o Acronis OS Selector: $45, trial version avail., but it's crippled. o V-Communications's System Commander 7: $70, retail / pay first 2. Redistributable (by individuals who don't charge), 30-day trial: o TeraByte Unlimited's BootIt Next Generation: $29.95 "shareware", 30 day trial http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/downloads/ . Also reportedly on Simtel sites. Also on my machine, at http://linuxmafia.com/pub/hardware/ , as bootit-ng-1.32a.zip . Included is a diskette image. You make the image, then boot it. (Decline its offer to "install".) 3. Open source: o The ntfs-progs utilities collection from Anton Altaparmakov's Linux NTFS Utilities effort, http://linux-ntfs.sourceforge.net/ includes a prerelease "ntfsresize" utility, roughly similar to FIPS. RECOMMENDATIONS: ntfsresize may be dangerously buggy. Beware! I had to pull down developer source code from http://linux-ntfs.bkbits.net/ (BitKeeper repository), then hand-hack a Makefile just to make ntfsresize be included in the compile process. That isn't reassuring. http://linuxmafia.com/pub/hardware/ carries two versions of the source tarball, with and without my i386 Linux binaries: ntfs-progs-post1.6.0-20021018-i386compiled.tar.gz ntfs-progs-post1.6.0-20021018.tar.gz I recommend that Linux activists keep copies of _both_ BootIt NG (the shareware toolkit) and the open-source ntfs-progs tools around to use on preloads. I further urge that you give copies of BootIt NG to end-users _only_ if they hand you a $29.95 cheque made out to TeraByte Unlimited for the shareware fee. Why? Because open source isn't about being too cheap to buy proprietary software. And it _certainly_ isn't about ripping off proprietary software authors. If people object to paying, they can try their luck with ntfsresize, or pony up $40 or more for one of the boxed-set retail alternatives. -- Cheers, "Azathoth need not be present to win." Rick Moen -- Charles O. Baucum, Jr. rick@linuxmafia.com From star@starshine.org Sat Oct 19 18:38:05 2002 Received: from antares.starshine.org ([216.240.40.177] helo=antares.in.starshine.org ident=postfix) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18352a-0006CC-00; Sat, 19 Oct 2002 18:38:04 -0700 Received: from gemini.starshine.org (gemini.starshine.org [216.240.40.169]) by antares.in.starshine.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51AF73986; Sat, 19 Oct 2002 14:17:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gemini.starshine.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A9C46140BD; Sat, 19 Oct 2002 19:28:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 19:28:35 -0700 To: Rick Moen Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Resizing NTFS Message-ID: <20021020022835.GB6872@starshine.org> References: <20021019060946.GK8904@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021019060946.GK8904@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: star@starshine.org (Heather Stern) Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 4385 Lines: 102 [Snipping the proprietary solutions as well-known and unplatable] I think it's worth noting, Rick, that not a single one of these is guaranteed not to break you ... ...warrantied, maybe, for the commercial stuff, but guaranteed, hell no. So *my* first question wouldn't be "are you a cheapskate or big opensource fan" ... it'd be "did you make a backup so you won't weep and wail if your system hates what we try?" If they answer "no, but I installed a second hard disk we can have fun with" I'll let 'em get away with that, but remember to be extra-careful during the install sequence, because the defaults might be unfriendly. Also to -explain- that /dev/hda and /dev/hdc stuff. The rest of this is roughly a Shareware-Advocacy HOWTO, with this case as a specific example. Q. Should I pay this shareware fee, or can I just run off with the goodies? A. If you're sure that they're "goodies" you've probably already answered this for yourself ... pay up. Q. How can I tell the software is worth anything to me at all? A. Try it. If it doesn't have your computer over for tea and send you back a Mogwai that's been allowed to eat after midnight, it's probably worth it. But the real question is about value. Did it save you enough time to be worth the value this guy is charging? For an example see below. > 2. Redistributable (by individuals who don't charge), 30-day trial: > o TeraByte Unlimited's BootIt Next Generation: $29.95 "shareware", > 30 day trial > http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/downloads/ . ::> Simtel... ::> ... http://linuxmafia.com/pub/hardware/ , as bootit-ng-1.32a.zip . > ...You make the [diskette] image, then boot... (Decline... "install".) ::> ...recommend letting people use it when they offer you a $29.95 ::> check out to TeraByte Unlimited... Good plan. I'd make 'em cough up their own floppy too. To those who want to skimp and say it's not worth a lot, I'd say at minimum wage that's about 6 hours of headache. Most people have a better opinion of what their personal time is worth than that - even if unemployed. So is MS and/or your vendor going to be 3 hours worth of helpful to you "splitting" your C: into C: and D: so we can get on with this? Frankly -- no, probably not. Even less so if your vendor is one of the Borg who ships a "rescue" disc only good for re-assimilating your drive back to its as-shipped state, instead of a real copy of MSwin. > 3. Open source: > > o The ntfs-progs utilities collection from Anton Altaparmakov's > Linux NTFS Utilities effort, http://linux-ntfs.sourceforge.net/ > includes a prerelease "ntfsresize" utility, roughly similar to FIPS. ::> ...dangerously buggy ... had to play developer tricks to make it ::> compile at all... > http://linuxmafia.com/pub/hardware/ carries two versions of the source > tarball, with and without my i386 Linux binaries: > > ntfs-progs-post1.6.0-20021018-i386compiled.tar.gz > ntfs-progs-post1.6.0-20021018.tar.gz If you've already confirmed that they've made their backup, then they can also breathe easier about trying touchy software like this. pat answer for Q. why is all the linux NTFS support so wimpy? A. Frankly, not many people use it... If anyone who does finds no bugs then they don't need to change anything... and many who do just bail and use other tricks to deal with it rather than properly beat down the bugs. It's a critical-mass thing. > Why? Because open source isn't about being too cheap to buy > proprietary software. And it _certainly_ isn't about ripping > off proprietary software authors. I consider badmouthing open source folk who are actually keeping their code maintained to be "ripping them off" too. If they asked for no more pay than respect, respect is what they ought to get paid. If they kind of respect someone wants to get paid is cash on the barrelhead, and the product is worth the respect (that is, it saves me more time than it'd cost me) ... then by all means, I say pay up. AT least until you can code it yourself... then you can grumble at each other in LKML or other applicable mailing lists :) . | . Heather Stern | star@starshine.org --->*<--- Starshine Technical Services - * - consulting@starshine.org ' | ` Sysadmin Support and Training | (800) 938-4078 From rick@linuxmafia.com Sat Oct 19 19:58:46 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1836If-000141-00 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 2002 19:58:45 -0700 Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 19:58:45 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Resizing NTFS Message-ID: <20021020025845.GE19330@linuxmafia.com> References: <20021019060946.GK8904@linuxmafia.com> <20021020022835.GB6872@starshine.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021020022835.GB6872@starshine.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 2648 Lines: 56 Quoting Heather Stern (star@starshine.org): > I think it's worth noting, Rick, that not a single one of these is > guaranteed not to break you ... Quite. I'm frankly astonished that people are willing to use "non-destructive" repartitioners at all, let alone when they don't have tested, good backups and the ability to reinstall their OSes and all applications. On the flip side, if people _do_ have those abilities, then I could argue that they'd be better off using them: That is, back up everything, blow away the filesystem(s), reinstall the OS on different-sized filesystems, and put everything back. For that reason, I recommend specifically _against_ the entire category "non-destructive" repartitioners: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/#partition But people want to use them anyway -- especially the hapless non-technical users who drop in on us and expect us to perform miracles. So, at a minimum, I always make sure they know that what they're doing risks their data, and it's their headache if something goes wrong. > The rest of this is roughly a Shareware-Advocacy HOWTO, with this case > as a specific example. > > Q. Should I pay this shareware fee, or can I just run off with the goodies? > A. If you're sure that they're "goodies" you've probably already > answered this for yourself ... pay up. > > Q. How can I tell the software is worth anything to me at all? > A. Try it. If it doesn't have your computer over for tea and send > you back a Mogwai that's been allowed to eat after midnight, it's > probably worth it. > > But the real question is about value. Did it save you enough time > to be worth the value this guy is charging? For an example see > below. In the case of BootIt NG, I'm not _personally_ willing to guarantee that it does anything at all: I didn't write it, have no business relationship with any of the parties, and don't know a thing about it. I don't even have an NTFS volume around to test it on. But anyone who wants _me_ to give him a copy has to fork over that $29.95 cheque payable to Terabyte Unlimited. If they don't like those terms, no problem -- but also no disk. My having made this clear on several mailing lists has garnered me some pretty transrational responses. Surprising, really. Thank you for your comments. -- "Is it not the beauty of an asynchronous form of discussion that one can go and make cups of tea, floss the cat, fluff the geraniums, open the kitchen window and scream out it with operatic force, volume, and decorum, and then return to the vexed glowing letters calmer of mind and soul?" -- The Cube, forum3000.org From aludal@softhome.net Sat Oct 19 20:20:26 2002 Received: from jive.softhome.net ([66.54.152.27]) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1836de-0004Ad-00 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 2002 20:20:26 -0700 Received: (qmail 2142 invoked by uid 417); 20 Oct 2002 03:16:04 -0000 Received: from shunt-smtp-out-0 (HELO softhome.net) (172.16.3.12) by shunt-smtp-out-0 with SMTP; 20 Oct 2002 03:16:04 -0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([65.147.86.227]) (AUTH: PLAIN aludal@softhome.net) by softhome.net with esmtp; Sat, 19 Oct 2002 21:16:03 -0600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: aludal Organization: likeItoldya To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 20:25:06 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200210192025.06685.aludal@softhome.net> Subject: [conspire] on partition tools Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 388 Lines: 14 Hi there, It's me -- Sasha, Just out of Surplus Computer shop -- and they have Partition Magic 6.0 =20 @US$29.00 + CAsalestax. Bought me Webpal internet appliance there for mer= e=20 $19.95, to penguinize it next week or so. Well, I don't need Partition=20 Magic. Nobody does who is capable to read good Rick's English on Linux=20 partions/installations. -- Arbeit macht frei. -- AU From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Oct 20 00:25:27 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 183ASl-0000I6-00 for ; Sun, 20 Oct 2002 00:25:27 -0700 Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 00:25:27 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] on partition tools Message-ID: <20021020072527.GI19330@linuxmafia.com> References: <200210192025.06685.aludal@softhome.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200210192025.06685.aludal@softhome.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 897 Lines: 21 Quoting aludal (aludal@softhome.net): > Just out of Surplus Computer shop -- and they have Partition Magic 6.0 > @US$29.00 + CAsalestax. Here's a rather strange and ironic thing: This evening, as I was out finding a few more Web server daemons to add to the list at http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/#djb , I found that one of the authors' personal pages had a hyperlink for "partition-magic-6.img". I was curious, so I pulled it down: 1.44 MB file, yep. Mounted it as a loop device: Hmm! It's an MS-DOS 6.22 boot floppy that mounts a RAMdisk and then unpacks Partition Magic v. 6 into the latter. Whee! I get to violate the copyrights of both Microsoft Corporation and PowerQuest Corp., if I wish. Ah, temptation. -- Cheers, Yes, I _am_ an agent of Satan, Rick Moen but my duties are largely ceremonial. rick@linuxmafia.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Oct 20 01:13:26 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 183BDB-0007xF-00 for ; Sun, 20 Oct 2002 01:13:25 -0700 Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 01:13:25 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Resizing NTFS Message-ID: <20021020081325.GJ19330@linuxmafia.com> References: <20021019060946.GK8904@linuxmafia.com> <20021020022835.GB6872@starshine.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021020022835.GB6872@starshine.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 4544 Lines: 90 Quoting Heather Stern (star@starshine.org): > The rest of this is roughly a Shareware-Advocacy HOWTO, with this case > as a specific example. > > Q. Should I pay this shareware fee, or can I just run off with the goodies? > A. If you're sure that they're "goodies" you've probably already > answered this for yourself ... pay up. > > Q. How can I tell the software is worth anything to me at all? > A. Try it. If it doesn't have your computer over for tea and send > you back a Mogwai that's been allowed to eat after midnight, it's > probably worth it. > > But the real question is about value. Did it save you enough time > to be worth the value this guy is charging? For an example see > below. Just following up on that: I received such weird and impassioned mail in response to my suggesting Linux activists hand out copies of BootIt NG only to people who fork over cheques to TeraByte Unlimited for the $29.95 shareware fee that it's forced me to think over _why_ I felt this way. It's a number of things. To review: The guy who's behind TeraByte Unlimited, whoever he is, decided to release BootIt NG as a proprietary binary, redistributable with some limits, 30-day-trial shareware. From the open-source perspective, this is generous and useful but not a long-term solution, because nobody else can maintain or fix it. By contrast, an open-source package can never die or become unusable as long as even one competent programmer cares (or is paid to care). So, it's not the cost; it's the maintainability. But most of the world at large doesn't get that: They assume -- and go around claiming -- that open-source is just a dodge for people too cheap to pay for their software. Further, they harbour a suspicion that we rip off proprietary software companies whenever we can: We use open-source only because the better proprietary stuff is out of our reach. After all, we go around talking about "freedom" and "fair use". That must mean we're criminals and copyright violators, right? In the DOS/Windows, MacOS, and PalmOS worlds, genuinely open-source software has never caught on, much. This is in part because of shareware offerings: Why bother writing an open-source modem program, when everyone has Qmodem or Telix? And all of those people who downloaded Qmodem or Telix, or got them from a friend, are vaguely aware that they're obliged to pay for them if they use them, but 99+% of them just get used to ignoring such obligations, because they can. So, DOS et al. users started developing an attitude that licences are things that theoretically apply to you, and in an ideal world you'd read them, but as a practical matter you just type "Yes" and use anything you can get your hands on. I mean, if they were serious about your paying, they'd force you to, right? This attitude doesn't stop with shareware. At many companies I've worked at -- including two proprietary software firms(!) -- people bootleg retail software without a second thought. Because everyone thinks taking licence agreements seriously and paying for what you use is someone else's problem. _These_ are the people who accuse _us_ -- open-source software users -- of being too cheap to pay for software, and of ripping off proprietary software companies when we can. They can't imagine any reason to use open-source software other than cost. And _they'd_ rip off proprietary software companies in an instant, so why wouldn't we? Which brings us back to BootIt NG: You could read that licence attentively, and say in all honestly that it absolutely permits LUGs to hand out tens of thousands of copies, each to a person who will need it exactly once, and have quantity _zero_ of those happy customers pay TeraByte a dime. Which is pretty much what happens with shareware, generally. And people hearing about this say "Well, I guess it's true that Linux users are too cheap to pay for anything, which is the only reason they use open source." What I'm saying is that it's not in our interest to participate in that happening, and we don't have to do so. We can tell users "You want BootIt NG? Fine; we'll give you a copy if you pay the shareware fee. If you'd rather not, feel free to get a copy without our help." Those users may stiff TeraByte, but at least we didn't help. And we set a good example. -- Cheers, "Get the facts first. You can distort them later." Rick Moen -- Mark Twain rick@linuxmafia.com From star@starshine.org Sun Oct 20 11:28:32 2002 Received: from antares.starshine.org ([216.240.40.177] helo=antares.in.starshine.org ident=postfix) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 183KoR-0000ba-00; Sun, 20 Oct 2002 11:28:31 -0700 Received: from gemini.starshine.org (gemini.starshine.org [216.240.40.169]) by antares.in.starshine.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E09423977; Sun, 20 Oct 2002 07:08:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gemini.starshine.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 15EBD140BD; Sun, 20 Oct 2002 12:18:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 12:18:54 -0700 To: Rick Moen Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Resizing NTFS Message-ID: <20021020191854.GA7029@starshine.org> References: <20021019060946.GK8904@linuxmafia.com> <20021020022835.GB6872@starshine.org> <20021020081325.GJ19330@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021020081325.GJ19330@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: star@starshine.org (Heather Stern) Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 6747 Lines: 132 > In the DOS/Windows, MacOS, and PalmOS worlds, genuinely open-source > software has never caught on, much. This is in part because of > shareware offerings: Why bother writing an open-source modem program, > when everyone has Qmodem or Telix? And all of those people who > downloaded Qmodem or Telix, or got them from a friend, are vaguely aware > that they're obliged to pay for them if they use them, but 99+% of them > just get used to ignoring such obligations, because they can. > > So, DOS et al. users started developing an attitude that licences are > things that theoretically apply to you, and in an ideal world you'd read > them, but as a practical matter you just type "Yes" and use anything you > can get your hands on. I mean, if they were serious about your paying, > they'd force you to, right? The original "strong premise" for shareware, and for genuinely paying up, was the following: 1. What if it *doesn't* work / isn't good for you? You bought the stuff at the store, see them stiff you on the manufacturer's 30 day return policy (send them mail. you needed a special note on your receipt? huh, why didn't you ask for that when you bought it? /honest! They really *said* things like this! The world has changed a little bit since then, but still/ well, I can call my manager /who's on a coffee break./ ), watch them try to stiff you on your state's 10 day return policy (sadly, a use remains for adult tantrums), waste a bunch of time in line even waiting for them too. Or: you download it at your friendly local BBS, get some reviews from some fellow nerds who actually *tried* it so they know what they stupid installer at least looks like, and if it doesn't work, then heck, it was just the same as if you had to do things The Hard Way anyway. if it does, pay up; one of your local buddies might be a shareware author too. You'd buy the guy a beer, wouldn't you? So why not a fiver for shareware. (as for tried it, yes, some lucky geek always gets to be first on the chopping block.) (yes, the glitch here is the prices have gone up. I recall when paying 5 or 10 got you the thank you note, and paying 25 got you source code. Those were the days. Most of them don't offer source anymore.) (Get Out The Cane And White Beard: yes, I also recall when the only way you could get decent software was in source form. No matter what else you think of Magazine BASIC, it was cross platform and it worked. c.f. my autobiographical filksong, LG, author bios.) 2. Aww c'mon, the expensive ones are half the price of the things in the store, and much better than half as good. Sometimes better, since the authors actually use them for the advertised effects. Interestingly enough, the same premise that some people use to push Linux and BSD. Not just "it's free" (pick a style of freedom) and not just "we have source" (which means not much to a newbie. to the right sort of person "we don't charge $450 for gcc - so you can recompile anything you want" is muuuuch more powerful) but also, our little penguin's igloo doesn't fall down the way the house made out of Windows does all the time. If I had a dollar for everytime a newbie shrugged off the "crashes less" commentary, then listened raptly to my tales of doing really bad things to systems and recovering by beating my way to a shell prompt... why, I could probably throw a big pizza party. > This attitude doesn't stop with shareware. At many companies I've > worked at -- including two proprietary software firms(!) -- people > bootleg retail software without a second thought. Because everyone > thinks taking licence agreements seriously and paying for what you use > is someone else's problem. > > _These_ are the people who accuse _us_ -- open-source software users -- > of being too cheap to pay for software, and of ripping off proprietary > software companies when we can. They can't imagine any reason to use > open-source software other than cost. And _they'd_ rip off proprietary > software companies in an instant, so why wouldn't we? We speak from a position of power. Our stuff is "free" (as in sharable, not as in unrestricted) ... even the folks at MS' home office can use it. But they would never pay the price to use its *parts* inside their own goods. > Which brings us back to BootIt NG: You could read that licence > attentively, and say in all honestly that it absolutely permits LUGs > to hand out tens of thousands of copies, each to a person who will need > it exactly once, and have quantity _zero_ of those happy customers pay > TeraByte a dime. Which is pretty much what happens with shareware, > generally. Yes; it goes in the "pay" vs "free" section of some large CD full of software, by two weeks later people dunno which was which even if they cared, and few people succumb even to nagware. Some will pony up for timebomb ware ... which I've always deeply mistrusted. Anybody send any very weirdly phrased postcards out to Columbia Univ. for their fonts, or spend a moment off thinking about third world countries? These are the kinds of things some folks have listed as their "how to register your software" when they haven't any expectation of people sending them money anymore. > And people hearing about this say "Well, I guess it's true that Linux > users are too cheap to pay for anything, which is the only reason they > use open source." Huh. I'd like to see those guys build their own kitchen cabinetry from raw lumber they were given and then say it didn't cost them anything. They *can* ... if they consider their time to have no value. c.f. Shareware Advocacy Item 2. (If it saved you more time then he's charging don't waste any more time whining about it.) > What I'm saying is that it's not in our interest to participate in that > happening, and we don't have to do so. We can tell users "You want > BootIt NG? Fine; we'll give you a copy if you pay the shareware fee. > If you'd rather not, feel free to get a copy without our help." Those > users may stiff TeraByte, but at least we didn't help. And we set a > good example. Hey, if I'm at a fest and some Shareware thingy mangles a disk so we have to do things The Hard Way, I'll help 'em shred the check, if they like. What they hell, I'll recommend some good Free word processors for the fellow so he can flam the fellow on letterhead, the old fashioned way :) . | . Heather Stern | star@starshine.org --->*<--- Starshine Technical Services - * - consulting@starshine.org ' | ` Sysadmin Support and Training | (800) 938-4078 From biow@bigfoot.com Tue Oct 22 12:24:46 2002 Received: from mail.pcmagic.net ([207.50.188.13]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1844dw-0007xd-00 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 2002 12:24:44 -0700 Received: (qmail 4401 invoked by uid 88); 22 Oct 2002 12:20:18 -0700 Received: from unknown (HELO bigfoot.com) (biow@66.81.148.41) by 0 with SMTP; 22 Oct 2002 12:20:18 -0700 Message-ID: <3DB5A4F1.9040005@bigfoot.com> Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 12:20:17 -0700 From: "Edmund J. Biow" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.1b) Gecko/20020721 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Resizing NTFS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1132 Lines: 23 Reportedly the newly released the Debian-based Xandros distribution (nee Corel) includes the option to non-destructively repartition NTFS with a "disk druid like utility." http://newsforge.com/newsforge/02/10/21/1749230.shtml?tid=23 I have no idea what the license status of the utility is. There is apparently a mix of GPL and proprietary software on the single CD. Nor do I know whether the ute will make a hash of your Windows partition. Unfortunately, there are no free-as-in-beer downloads and the distro runs $100. Jeez, I bought Corel Linux for only $25, complete with manual & stuffed penguin doll. Xandros comes with some other interesting features. There is Crossover Office, which enables you to install Windows programs (again, not a free-as-in-WINE program). Xandros also apparently has a Windows-like Control Center that allows you to easily adjust display settings (sometimes I want more flexibility than Ctrl+Alt+'+'). And you can switch users in the GUI from the launch menu. For a newbie oaf like myself, flailing about trying to make the transition to Linux it sounds pretty tempting. From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Oct 23 21:00:20 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 184ZAS-0001iT-00 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 21:00:20 -0700 Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 21:00:20 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Resizing NTFS Message-ID: <20021024040020.GW19330@linuxmafia.com> References: <3DB5A4F1.9040005@bigfoot.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3DB5A4F1.9040005@bigfoot.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 4271 Lines: 99 Quoting Edmund J. Biow (biow@bigfoot.com): > Reportedly the newly released the Debian-based Xandros distribution (nee > Corel) includes the option to non-destructively repartition NTFS with a > "disk druid like utility." > http://newsforge.com/newsforge/02/10/21/1749230.shtml?tid=23 > I have no idea what the license status of the utility is. I'm about 99% sure it's integral to the proprietary, non-redistributable installer program. I've been collecting all this NTFS-coping stuff in one file, here: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/ntfs The file has gotten long and confusing enough that I've now prepended a summary. The idea is that Linux folk can look up what's known about the issue, there, rather than having to re-research it. Summary follows: THE NTFS PROBLEM FOR LINUX INSTALLERS SUMMARY Because Microsoft has begun using NTFS partitions for preloads, people coming to the Linux community for help creating a dual-boot Linux/Microsoft setup have a new challenge. Traditional "non-destructive" partitioners don't work: FIPS, GNU Parted, DiskDrake, Ranish Partition Manager, Partition Resizer, PartitionIt Extra Strength -- all are FAT-only (no NTFS). Worsening this problem is omission of genuine reinstallation disks for MS-Windows & bundled apps from current OEM preloads: The provided "recovery disks" wipe out your hard drive completely and reallocate the entire drive to NTFS. We've found three classes of solutions: 1. NTFS-resizing software: Proprietary/retail-only, may not be lawfully redistributed: o PowerQuest Corp.'s Partition Magic: $80, retail / pay first o Paragon Software's Partition Manager: $40, retail / pay first o Acronis OS Selector: $45, trial version avail., but it's crippled. o V-Communications's System Commander 7: $70, retail / pay first o Xandros Desktop OS's installer: $100, retail / pay first Proprietary/redistributable (by individuals who don't charge): o TeraByte Unlimited's BootIt Next Gen.: $29.95 "shareware", 30 day trial http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/downloads/ . Also reportedly on Simtel sites. Also on my machine, http://linuxmafia.com/pub/hardware/ as bootit-ng-1.32a.zip . Included is a diskette image. You make the image, then boot it. (Decline its offer to "install".) Proprietary / terms of redistribution unknown: o ASPLinux distribution installer's ASPDiskManager utility: downloadable CD image, http://www.asp-linux.com/ Open source: o The ntfs-progs utilities collection from Anton Altaparmakov's Linux NTFS Utilities effort, http://linux-ntfs.sourceforge.net/ includes "ntfsresize", similar to FIPS. ntfsresize may be dangerously buggy. Beware! I compiled it for people's convenience: http://linuxmafia.com/pub/hardware/ ntfs-progs-post1.6.0-20021018-i386compiled.tar.gz 2. Partition-imaging software with NTFS support (i.e., understands NTFS file semantics, and thus can reduce an image's size): o Symantec/Norton Ghost: proprietary/retail-only o Partimage: open-source. http://www.partimage.org/ Included on these rescue disks: http://rescuecd.sourceforge.net/ http://mkcdrec.ota.be/ The idea is to back up the partition image to elsewhere (e.g. a Linux server), blow away the original, and copy the partition back _smaller_. Both packages seem to require that you NOT have NTFS compression enabled, and that you defragment the NTFS partition: 2 a). NTFS Defragmenters: o Symantec/Norton Speedisk: proprietary/retail-only o Raxco Software, Inc.'s PerfectDisk NT: proprietary/retail-only o Paragon Software's Partition Manager: proprietary/retail-only o System Internals's PageDefrag: proprietary/retail-only o Defragmenters included in MS-Windows XP Professional only: o Disk Defragmenter (snap-in) o Defrag.exe (command-line) o Executive Software's Diskeeper: proprietary/retail-only o Executive Software's Diskeeper Lite 7.0: proprietary / gratis download, http://www1.execsoft.com/dklite.exe (11 MB) labelled "freeware". 3. Advise the machine's owner to add a second hard drive and load Linux there, to finesse the need to deal with NTFS resizing. From rick@linuxmafia.com Sat Oct 26 03:00:57 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 185NkW-000461-00 for ; Sat, 26 Oct 2002 03:00:56 -0700 Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 03:00:54 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20021026100054.GE23673@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] More on resizing NTFS Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 9348 Lines: 198 Quoting from my summary: Proprietary / terms of redistribution unknown: o ASPLinux distribution installer's ASPDiskManager utility: downloadable CD image, http://www.asp-linux.com/ I checked it out. OK, folks, this is a weird one. "ASPLinux" is an RPM-based distibution produced in Russia by a company called SWsoft, which has Linux-related subsidiaries in the USA, South Korea, China, and Singapore (ASPLinux Pte. Ltd.). Looks like most of the Linux business is in Singapore, but the coders are in Russia. One of the advantages claimed for it is the ability to resize NTFS during installation, using an included "ASPDiskManager" utility. Which is, of course, what got my interest. Where is it? ------------ There are i386 and PPC[1] versions. And there are lots of download sites for the i386 ISOs: ftp://ftp-linux.cc.gatech.edu/pub/Linux/distributions/asplinux/i386/7.3/ ftp://fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu/pub/Linux/distributions/asplinux ftp://ftp.oit.unc.edu/pub/Linux/distributions/asplinux http://east.dl.sourceforge.net/mirrors/metalab/Linux/distributions/asplinux/ ftp://ftp.metalab.unc.edu/pub/Linux/distributions/asplinux http://rpmfind.net/linux/ASPLinux/i386/7.3/ rsync://download.asplinux.ru::ASPLinux/i386/current/ ftp://fr.rpmfind.net/linux/ASPLinux/i386/7.3/ ftp://ftp.ese-metz.fr/pub/Linux/distributions/asp-linux/i386/current/ http://fr.rpmfind.net/linux/ASPLinux/i386/7.3/ ftp://ftp.informatik.rwth-aachen.de/pub/comp/Linux/sunsite.unc.edu/distributions/asplinux/ http://sunsite.informatik.rwth-aachen.de/cgi-bin/ftp/ftpshow/pub/Linux/sunsite.unc.edu/distributions/asplinux ftp://ftp.duth.gr/pub/ASPLinux/ ftp://ftp.ntua.gr/pub/linux/asplinux/i386/7.3/ ftp://ftp.fsn.hu/pub/CDROM-Images/asplinux/i386/7.3/ ftp://ftp.kddlabs.co.jp/Linux/distributions/ASPLinux/i386/7.3/ ftp://ftp.kr.psi.net/pub/mirrors/asp-linux/ ftp://ftp.surfnet.nl/pub/os/Linux/distr/asplinux/i386/7.3/ ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/os/Linux/distr/asplinux/i386/7.3/ ftp://ftp.clear.net.nz/mirror/ftp.asp-linux.com/i386/7.1/ ftp://ftp.man.poznan.pl/vols/vol1/sunsite/distributions/asplinux ftp://ftp.gamma.ru/pub/asplinux/i386/7.3/ ftp://linux4u.jinr.ru/pub/ASPlinux/i386/7.3/ http://download.asplinux.ru/install/ftp/i386/7.3/ What is it? ----------- The mystifying part was: Were they really giving this stuff away for free? Was it one of those deals where only the Deluxe Edition boxed set had the impressive goodies? I also noticed a press release saying ASPLinux Pte. Ltd. had become an authorised distributor for Acronis OS Selector, one of the retail, you-may-not-redistribute packages that do NTFS resizing. So, I e-mailed ASPLinux Pte. Ltd. asking (1) What are ASPDiskManager's licence terms? (2) Is source code available to the public? (3) Is there any connection between ASPDiskManager and Acronis OS Selector? The next morning, I got a telephone call, not from ASPLinux/SWsoft, but rather _Acronis_. They wanted to know what I was digging into, so I told them. They said ASPDiskManager _is_ Acronis OS Selector, included in ASPLinux under licence. So, I downloaded an ISO of ASPLinux v. 7.3 disk 1 (of 3). Burned it to disk. Booted it. Very nice graphical installer. Pick your language, pick your mouse type, pick _custom_ installation (overriding the default of quick installation), select installation source (CD), pick custom partitioning (default). You're now in ASPDiskManager. Hot damn! It seems quite impressive. If you highlight an existing partition and select the Edit button, you see an Edit Partition screen whose options include Resize. It will resize NTFS, FAT, ext2/ext3, XFS, and Reiser! I didn't have any partitions I cared to sacrifice, let alone NTFS ones, but likely you just exit the ASPDiskManager screen and then hard boot and eject the CD (if you just needed the resizer, and don't want to install ASPLinux). How free is free? ----------------- Time for a review of software types classified by licence. o Proprietary / non-redistributable. E.g., most retail software. You open the box, and see a licence, which probably has a lot of nasty restrictions, including maybe it being allegedly non-transferrable (which courts have held to be bunk) and that you may not hand out copies. Many people don't realise that, even if no explicit licence said so, it would still be unlawful to redistribute it, _by default_. The Copyright Act reserves that right to the copyright holder. That's right: Software is proprietary by default. It takes an explicit licence to change this. o Proprietary / redistributable. E.g., shareware. If you read the README for a piece of shareware, it says you're welcome to re-upload it, even though you're allegedly prohibited from modifying it, reverse-engineering it, decompiling it, etc. A lot of people assume that anything you find downloadable for free from the Internet is therefore lawfully redistributable. Not so. Again, that right is reserved, by default. For example, after Microsoft save Corel from collapse with a huge investment, Corel discontinued downloads of WordPerfect 8.0 Download Personal Edition for Linux, _and_ apparently telephoned CNET and Tucows, saying "Pull those files." Because WP 8.0 DPE for Linux never included a grant of permission to redistribute, CNET and Tucows were forced to comply.[2] A lot of such software does exist on the Net, some of it with source code. Where the copyright owners aren't being zealous in going after people, often it circulates for decades. In some cases, they intended this and just failed to include a licence statement -- or wrote that permission in a letter, or on a Web page, or in a telephone conversation. Any of those might suffice: A licence is whatever a judge agrees is one. But the point is that, if you _don't_ have any sort of licence, then at best you can convince the judge that you lawfully downloaded it: You have no inherent right to redistribute. If you do redistribute, you run the risk of the copyright owner coming screaming at you, telling you that you may not (and worse things, in these days of DMCA legal action). A more current example is Borland Kylix Open Edition. You can download it directly from Borland for free -- but its terms very explicitly omit permission to redistribute. (In fact, just in case you're unclear on that point, it's actually forbidden.) If they wished, Borland could also designate other authorised download sites -- like CNET's download.com and Tucows, for example. But all of those sites could be shut off without advance notice, and nobody would have the right to offer it elsewhere. o Open source. This is software that _is_ explicitly redistributable, and whose further development anyone may take over ("fork"). As noted, this isn't possible without a licence, since the default licence (inherent in the Copyright Act) is proprietary. But what the hell is this...? ----------------------------- Which brings us back to ASPLinux, ASPDiskManager, and Acronis OS Selector. Acronis OS Selector is very much in the proprietary / non-redistributable category. But what about ASPLinux (which _includes_ Acronis OS Selector, under licence)? I read the README. It says you're explicitly allowed to redistribute. It's obvious that the ASPLinux installer as a whole (including ASPDiskManager) falls basically into the second category, above (proprietary / redistributable). There's no sign of source code for it, so nobody's going to be able to maintain ASPDiskManager independently of SWsoft. And there's no obvious way to extract just ASPDiskManager from the installer, and pass it around separately. But it looks like ASPLinux disk 1 can be distributed indefinitely. Acronis may eventually become unhappy about this -- as it puts a bit of a monkeywrench in their product sales model. They might convey that unhappiness to ASPLinux Pte Ltd. / SWsoft, who conceivably might yank existing ISOs from ftp sites it controls and ask removal from others. But I _believe_ they could _not_ compel the files' removal. (I'm not a lawyer.) So... ----- Linux users who're in the habit of helping people create MS-Windows dual-boot setups might want to add ASPLinux disk1 to their kits. It appears to be as redistributable as the open-source (but scarily prerelease) ntfsresize utility, and even more than BootIt NG (which may not be redistributed by companies or for money). And by all means put one or both of the rescue disks with the open-source Partimage partition-imaging utility in your kits (http://mkcdrec.ota.be/ , http://rescuecd.sourceforge.net/). Both are toolkits, but the latter one has preconstructed images, too. [1] There used to be a version of Windows NT for PowerPC, with NTFS support. So, it's quite possible that ASPLinux for PPC includes an NTFS resizer, and that such a feature would not be entirely pointless. However, it seems very unlikely that the Linux community would have to deal with such computers, at this late date. [2] One can still find WP 8.0 DPE elsewhere. Presumably, Corel quit after getting it removed from the two largest download sites. The point is that Corel _could_ enjoin all the others, too. From rick@linuxmafia.com Sat Oct 26 03:03:17 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 185Nmm-00049r-00 for ; Sat, 26 Oct 2002 03:03:16 -0700 Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 03:03:16 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20021026100316.GF23673@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] CABAL meeting, Saturday, 4 PM Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 288 Lines: 8 Yes, we _are_ having a CABAL meeting, Saturday evening. Sorry about the Web pages' state. All are welcome! -- Cheers, "We're sorry; you have reached an imaginary number. Rick Moen Please rotate your 'phone ninety degrees and try again." rick@linuxmafia.com From biow@bigfoot.com Tue Oct 29 11:57:01 2002 Received: from mail.pcmagic.net ([207.50.188.13]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 186cU0-0001u0-00 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 11:57:00 -0800 Received: (qmail 80970 invoked by uid 88); 29 Oct 2002 11:51:57 -0800 Received: from unknown (HELO bigfoot.com) (biow@66.81.146.83) by 0 with SMTP; 29 Oct 2002 11:51:57 -0800 Message-ID: <3DBEE6BC.9070806@bigfoot.com> Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 11:51:24 -0800 From: "Edmund J. Biow" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.2a) Gecko/20020910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Linux Mafia Subject: Re: [conspire] More on resizing NTFS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 11990 Lines: 249 Apparently Acronis OS will also be offered as part of SuSE Enterprise Desktop, which is being announced today & will ship in first quarter of next year: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/27832.html The distro seems to be part of a SuSE effort to make inroads in the Windows desktop OS market & will come with Codeweavers Crossover Office, which will allow users to install and run MS Orifice and Lotus Notes, as well as other popular Windows apps. Quoting from the article: Acronis OS Selector is one of those disk management products that pitches itself at the weak-willed and foolish by saying it "allows you to install up to 100 and even more operating systems (OSs) on one computer, boot an OS from any partition on any hard disk, have several operating system on the same partition." Trust us, this road leads to madness very quickly - we're sure it's very good, but stick to two, max. Looking frrom the point of view of SuSE Linux Desktop, it works with YasT2 to get the installer past that tricky stage of getting Linux onto a Windows machine without destroying everything, and it's significant that SuSE is going for a commercial disk/boot manager here. YaST itself is said by SuSE to be a be able to do the necessary re-arrangement of Win9x partitions, so presumably Acronis is there to handle XP and 2000. More properly though the differentiation should be between FAT32 and NTFS partitions, YaST being able to understand the former but not the latter. If you have a choice about it, we suggest you'll be a lot happier and more interoperable if you stick to FAT32 rather than installing XP or 2k on NTFS. Some major manufacturers we've noticed actually ship machines configured like this, but don't tell Microsoft. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Moen" To: Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2002 2:00 AM Subject: [conspire] More on resizing NTFS > Quoting from my summary: > > Proprietary / terms of redistribution unknown: > o ASPLinux distribution installer's ASPDiskManager utility: > downloadable CD image, http://www.asp-linux.com/ > > I checked it out. OK, folks, this is a weird one. > > "ASPLinux" is an RPM-based distibution produced in Russia by a company > called SWsoft, which has Linux-related subsidiaries in the USA, South > Korea, China, and Singapore (ASPLinux Pte. Ltd.). Looks like most of > the Linux business is in Singapore, but the coders are in Russia. One > of the advantages claimed for it is the ability to resize NTFS during > installation, using an included "ASPDiskManager" utility. > > Which is, of course, what got my interest. > > > Where is it? > ------------ > > There are i386 and PPC[1] versions. And there are lots of download sites > for the i386 ISOs: > > ftp://ftp-linux.cc.gatech.edu/pub/Linux/distributions/asplinux/i386/7.3/ > ftp://fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu/pub/Linux/distributions/asplinux > ftp://ftp.oit.unc.edu/pub/Linux/distributions/asplinux > http://east.dl.sourceforge.net/mirrors/metalab/Linux/distributions/asplinux/ > ftp://ftp.metalab.unc.edu/pub/Linux/distributions/asplinux > http://rpmfind.net/linux/ASPLinux/i386/7.3/ > rsync://download.asplinux.ru::ASPLinux/i386/current/ > ftp://fr.rpmfind.net/linux/ASPLinux/i386/7.3/ > ftp://ftp.ese-metz.fr/pub/Linux/distributions/asp-linux/i386/current/ > http://fr.rpmfind.net/linux/ASPLinux/i386/7.3/ > ftp://ftp.informatik.rwth-aachen.de/pub/comp/Linux/sunsite.unc.edu/distributions/asplinux/ > http://sunsite.informatik.rwth-aachen.de/cgi-bin/ftp/ftpshow/pub/Linux/sunsite.unc.edu/distributions/asplinux > ftp://ftp.duth.gr/pub/ASPLinux/ > ftp://ftp.ntua.gr/pub/linux/asplinux/i386/7.3/ > ftp://ftp.fsn.hu/pub/CDROM-Images/asplinux/i386/7.3/ > ftp://ftp.kddlabs.co.jp/Linux/distributions/ASPLinux/i386/7.3/ > ftp://ftp.kr.psi.net/pub/mirrors/asp-linux/ > ftp://ftp.surfnet.nl/pub/os/Linux/distr/asplinux/i386/7.3/ > ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/os/Linux/distr/asplinux/i386/7.3/ > ftp://ftp.clear.net.nz/mirror/ftp.asp-linux.com/i386/7.1/ > ftp://ftp.man.poznan.pl/vols/vol1/sunsite/distributions/asplinux > ftp://ftp.gamma.ru/pub/asplinux/i386/7.3/ > ftp://linux4u.jinr.ru/pub/ASPlinux/i386/7.3/ > http://download.asplinux.ru/install/ftp/i386/7.3/ > > > What is it? > ----------- > > The mystifying part was: Were they really giving this stuff away for > free? Was it one of those deals where only the Deluxe Edition boxed > set had the impressive goodies? > > I also noticed a press release saying ASPLinux Pte. Ltd. had become an > authorised distributor for Acronis OS Selector, one of the retail, > you-may-not-redistribute packages that do NTFS resizing. So, I e-mailed > ASPLinux Pte. Ltd. asking (1) What are ASPDiskManager's licence terms? > (2) Is source code available to the public? (3) Is there any connection > between ASPDiskManager and Acronis OS Selector? > > The next morning, I got a telephone call, not from ASPLinux/SWsoft, but > rather _Acronis_. They wanted to know what I was digging into, so I > told them. They said ASPDiskManager _is_ Acronis OS Selector, included > in ASPLinux under licence. > > > So, I downloaded an ISO of ASPLinux v. 7.3 disk 1 (of 3). Burned it to > disk. Booted it. Very nice graphical installer. Pick your language, > pick your mouse type, pick _custom_ installation (overriding the default > of quick installation), select installation source (CD), pick custom > partitioning (default). You're now in ASPDiskManager. Hot damn! > > It seems quite impressive. If you highlight an existing partition and > select the Edit button, you see an Edit Partition screen whose options > include Resize. It will resize NTFS, FAT, ext2/ext3, XFS, and Reiser! > I didn't have any partitions I cared to sacrifice, let alone NTFS ones, > but likely you just exit the ASPDiskManager screen and then hard boot > and eject the CD (if you just needed the resizer, and don't want to > install ASPLinux). > > > How free is free? > ----------------- > > Time for a review of software types classified by licence. > > o Proprietary / non-redistributable. E.g., most retail software. > You open the box, and see a licence, which probably has a lot > of nasty restrictions, including maybe it being allegedly > non-transferrable (which courts have held to be bunk) and that > you may not hand out copies. Many people don't realise that, even > if no explicit licence said so, it would still be unlawful to > redistribute it, _by default_. The Copyright Act reserves that > right to the copyright holder. > > That's right: Software is proprietary by default. It takes an > explicit licence to change this. > > o Proprietary / redistributable. E.g., shareware. If you read the > README for a piece of shareware, it says you're welcome to > re-upload it, even though you're allegedly prohibited from > modifying it, reverse-engineering it, decompiling it, etc. > > A lot of people assume that anything you find downloadable for free > from the Internet is therefore lawfully redistributable. Not so. > Again, that right is reserved, by default. For example, after > Microsoft save Corel from collapse with a huge investment, Corel > discontinued downloads of WordPerfect 8.0 Download Personal Edition > for Linux, _and_ apparently telephoned CNET and Tucows, saying > "Pull those files." Because WP 8.0 DPE for Linux never included > a grant of permission to redistribute, CNET and Tucows were forced > to comply.[2] > > A lot of such software does exist on the Net, some of it with source > code. Where the copyright owners aren't being zealous in going > after people, often it circulates for decades. In some cases, they > intended this and just failed to include a licence statement -- or > wrote that permission in a letter, or on a Web page, or in a > telephone conversation. Any of those might suffice: A licence > is whatever a judge agrees is one. > > But the point is that, if you _don't_ have any sort of licence, > then at best you can convince the judge that you lawfully downloaded > it: You have no inherent right to redistribute. If you do > redistribute, you run the risk of the copyright owner coming > screaming at you, telling you that you may not (and worse things, > in these days of DMCA legal action). > > A more current example is Borland Kylix Open Edition. You can > download it directly from Borland for free -- but its terms very > explicitly omit permission to redistribute. (In fact, just in > case you're unclear on that point, it's actually forbidden.) > If they wished, Borland could also designate other authorised > download sites -- like CNET's download.com and Tucows, for example. > But all of those sites could be shut off without advance notice, > and nobody would have the right to offer it elsewhere. > > o Open source. This is software that _is_ explicitly redistributable, > and whose further development anyone may take over ("fork"). As > noted, this isn't possible without a licence, since the default > licence (inherent in the Copyright Act) is proprietary. > > > But what the hell is this...? > ----------------------------- > > Which brings us back to ASPLinux, ASPDiskManager, and Acronis OS > Selector. Acronis OS Selector is very much in the proprietary / > non-redistributable category. But what about ASPLinux (which _includes_ > Acronis OS Selector, under licence)? > > I read the README. It says you're explicitly allowed to redistribute. > > It's obvious that the ASPLinux installer as a whole (including > ASPDiskManager) falls basically into the second category, above > (proprietary / redistributable). There's no sign of source code for it, > so nobody's going to be able to maintain ASPDiskManager independently > of SWsoft. And there's no obvious way to extract just ASPDiskManager > from the installer, and pass it around separately. But it looks like > ASPLinux disk 1 can be distributed indefinitely. > > Acronis may eventually become unhappy about this -- as it puts a bit > of a monkeywrench in their product sales model. They might convey > that unhappiness to ASPLinux Pte Ltd. / SWsoft, who conceivably might > yank existing ISOs from ftp sites it controls and ask removal from > others. But I _believe_ they could _not_ compel the files' removal. > (I'm not a lawyer.) > > > So... > ----- > > Linux users who're in the habit of helping people create MS-Windows > dual-boot setups might want to add ASPLinux disk1 to their kits. > It appears to be as redistributable as the open-source (but scarily > prerelease) ntfsresize utility, and even more than BootIt NG (which > may not be redistributed by companies or for money). And by all means > put one or both of the rescue disks with the open-source Partimage > partition-imaging utility in your kits (http://mkcdrec.ota.be/ , > http://rescuecd.sourceforge.net/). Both are toolkits, but the latter > one has preconstructed images, too. > > > [1] There used to be a version of Windows NT for PowerPC, with NTFS > support. So, it's quite possible that ASPLinux for PPC includes an > NTFS resizer, and that such a feature would not be entirely pointless. > However, it seems very unlikely that the Linux community would have to > deal with such computers, at this late date. > > [2] One can still find WP 8.0 DPE elsewhere. Presumably, Corel quit > after getting it removed from the two largest download sites. The > point is that Corel _could_ enjoin all the others, too. > > > _______________________________________________ > conspire mailing list > conspire@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire > From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Oct 29 12:26:12 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 186cvx-0006kA-00; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 12:25:53 -0800 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 12:25:42 -0800 From: Rick Moen To: Dire Red , Cheryl Morris , conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20021029202542.GJ23673@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. Subject: [conspire] (forw) BoF 45 (tonight) Network Security Monitoring : live lab (tuesday 29th 7PM) Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1178 Lines: 42 Announcement e-mail from MindSource. HTML has been stripped. ----- Forwarded message from MindSource ----- Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 12:12:29 -0800 (PST) From: MindSource To: rick@linuxmafia.com Reply-To: events@mindsource.com Subject: BoF 45 (tonight) Network Security Monitoring : live lab (tuesday 29th 7PM) Reminder: MindSource BoF # Forty-Five www.mindsource.com Network Security Management Michael's at Shoreline Tuesday October 29, 7 PM until late Refreshments served, no-host bar BoF #45 -- Topics in Network Security Management Network Security Management with Live Lab Data Storage Design Speakers from SolSoft Firewall and VPN Deployments IP security and network partitioning. Building your network topology Designing Network Security Policies Compilation Two Case Studies How do Design and deploy consistent IP security Sample Enterprise Network Sample Managed Service Providers Network BoF # Forty-Five (That's Birds of a Feather) Tuesday (tonight), October 29 7:00 PM http://www.mindsource.com/announce/michaels.jpg http://mindsource.com/bofs/shoreline.html Directions to Michaels at Shoreline From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Oct 29 13:23:43 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 186dpb-0006Lx-00 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 13:23:23 -0800 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 13:23:12 -0800 To: Linux Mafia Subject: Re: [conspire] More on resizing NTFS Message-ID: <20021029212312.GK23673@linuxmafia.com> References: <3DBEE6BC.9070806@bigfoot.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3DBEE6BC.9070806@bigfoot.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 892 Lines: 22 Quoting Edmund J. Biow (biow@bigfoot.com): > Apparently Acronis OS will also be offered as part of SuSE Enterprise > Desktop, which is being announced today & will ship in first quarter of > next year: > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/27832.html According to the article, it'll _also_ be included in the lower-priced SuSE Linux Desktop bundle. (Neither is yet a current product.) Projected list price for Desktop is $130 or the same number of Euros. NTFS resizers, Crossover Office and Plug-In, and sometimes Star Office seem to among the most common non-redistributable proprietary sweeteners in the new "desktop" distributions (Xandros Desktop, Lycoris, etc.). It seems likely SuSE are moving to ensure they can take advantage of that market, if it turns out to be real. -- Cheers, Rick Moen Linux for Intel: Party like it's 2037! rick@linuxmafia.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Fri Nov 01 09:08:45 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 187fHp-0002gF-00 for ; Fri, 01 Nov 2002 09:08:45 -0800 Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 09:08:45 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20021101170845.GG23673@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] (forw) Xandros announces special discount for LUG members worldwide Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 2209 Lines: 58 ----- Forwarded message from Roopa Vonkarey ----- Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 11:57:43 -0500 From: Roopa Vonkarey Subject: Xandros announces special discount for LUG members worldwide Dear Linux User: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- X A N D R O S LUG OUTREACH PROGRAM October, 2002 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Xandros is pleased to announce the launch of Linux Users Group Outreach program. From now till the end of November, we are offering Linux Users Group members worldwide a discount of 45% so you can try Xandros Desktop for yourself. For US customers, you will also be able to enjoy free shipping to all lower 48 states. So for a total of US $54.45, you will have Xandros Desktop delivered right to your home. Please feel free to forward this email with the discount coupon code to all members of your Linux User Group. Please use this LUG discount coupon code when ordering: dcce72d486f2 You can learn more about Xandros Desktop at www.xandros.com/desktop.html. We are confident that you will see why Xandros is the leader in the Linux desktop market and the first true viable alternative to Windows. Below are two recent articles on Xandros Desktop that you may find useful: http://newsforge.com/newsforge/02/10/21/1749230.shtml?tid=23 http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,648362,00.asp ---------------------------------------------------------------- Some important features in Xandros Desktop 1.0: -Easy install, 5 clicks of a mouse -Runs on a wide range of hardware -Run popular Windows applicaitons like MS Office and Quicken -Interoperates with existing Windows networking environment -Ability to: Browse the web Write emails Create documents and spreadsheets Connect to the internet -Free access to updates and many applications on Xandros Networks -And much, much, more... Xandros Simple. Powerful. Linux. ----- End forwarded message ----- From rick@linuxmafia.com Fri Nov 08 23:41:50 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18AQFa-0007uL-00 for ; Fri, 08 Nov 2002 23:41:50 -0800 Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 23:41:50 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20021109074150.GH23673@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] Learn Perl with Randal Schwartz. Also, CABAL meets _tomorrow_. Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1708 Lines: 44 This class is allegedly being taught by Randal Schwartz, even though the Web page lists Tom Phoenix as the instructor. Also, it's CABAL time again. Saturday Nov. 9 (tomorrow), 4 PM onwards. Y'all are welcome. -----Original Message----- From: qw@sf.pm.org [mailto:qw@sf.pm.org] Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 1:55 PM To: sfpug@sf.pm.org Subject: [sf-perl] Randal Schwartz teaching in SV December 9-12 Hey, everyone, I just got a note from Randal saying he'll be in town those dates. He's teaching an open-enrollment "llama class" at Silicon Valley College --"open-enrollment" meaning anyone can take it, meaning you. ;) I bet our recently active CGI study group (yay!) would be especially well- served by this. Since he'll be in town, we'll have some kind of meeting, probably on December 12 if Randal can make it--probably a talk followed by going our for drinks / dessert. Here is Randal's blurb for the course: This course will be taught in San Jose at Silicon Valley College: December 9-12: Learning Perl (Randal Schwartz) phone: 408-360-1099 Learning Perl: This course is based on Randal Schwartz's popular O'Reilly Nutshell book, Learning Perl. The course presumes no prior knowledge of Perl, and exposes the course participants to what we call the "middle two-thirds" of Perl --those items that are needed to accomplish many common tasks, and to lay the groundwork for more advanced study on an as-needed basis. This is a hands-on course in which students apply the programming methods and principles developed in the lectures. ----- End forwarded message ----- From biow@bigfoot.com Mon Nov 11 12:42:32 2002 Received: from mail.pcmagic.net ([207.50.188.13]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18BLOB-0005P4-00 for ; Mon, 11 Nov 2002 12:42:31 -0800 Received: (qmail 34845 invoked by uid 88); 11 Nov 2002 12:36:41 -0800 Received: from unknown (HELO vid) (biow@66.167.122.141) by 0 with SMTP; 11 Nov 2002 12:36:41 -0800 Message-ID: <005101c289c2$0b901d50$c27ba8c0@vid> From: "Edmund J. Biow" To: References: <20021019060946.GK8904@linuxmafia.com> Subject: Re: [conspire] Resizing NTFS Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 12:36:41 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1093 Lines: 32 Apparently Acronis True Image 6.0 is available for only $10 to Norton Ghost users. It claims to be able to back up active partitions from within Windows, as well. https://www.regnow.com/softsell/nph-softsell.cgi?item=4864-12 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Moen" To: Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 10:09 PM Subject: [conspire] Resizing NTFS > Lots of people come to Linux events with their MS-Windows preloads, > wanting us to set up dual-boot. Which we've been able to do, thanks to > resizer utilities like FIPS, GNU Parted, etc. Recently, Microsoft has > thrown a curveball at us: Recent preloads have tended to use NTFS > filesystems, rather than FAT. Most resizing tools -- and all of the > common open-source ones -- are FAT-only. This is starting to become a > significant roadblock. > > > After much checking, I've found the following options: > > -- four proprietary tools that are retail-only. snip > 1. Retail-only, proprietary: snip > o Acronis OS Selector: $45, trial version avail., but it's crippled. snip From skiffworks@earthlink.net Sun Dec 01 07:07:49 2002 Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.12]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18IVhF-0001w0-00 for ; Sun, 01 Dec 2002 07:07:49 -0800 Received: from cpe-24-221-189-101.ca.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.189.101] helo=localhost.localdomain) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18IVaC-0006VZ-00 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Sun, 01 Dec 2002 07:00:32 -0800 From: Bill Stoye To: Conspire Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.5 Date: 01 Dec 2002 07:00:40 -0800 Message-Id: <1038754841.501.215.camel@skiffworks> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: [conspire] Soundconfig: Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1880 Lines: 46 Hi Rick: I got and ran 'sndconfig' as you suggested, it finished without any errors but I must still be missing/not understanding something; during shutdown a message scrolls up saying: Starting ALSA sound driver (version none): modprobe: can't locate module snd failed. When I retry sndconfig I get the following: ERROR: No Sound Modules found You don't seem to be running a kernel with modular sound enabled. (soundcore.o was not found in the module search path). To use sndconfig, you must be running a kernel with modular sound, such as the kernel shipped with Red Hat Linux or a 2.2 or greater kernel. Looked up the following: skiffworks:/home/bill# uname -r 2.2.20-idepci also did this: skiffworks:/usr/src# dpkg -l kernel-image-2.2.20-idepci Desired=Unknown/Install/Remove/Purge/Hold | Status=Not/Installed/Config-files/Unpacked/Failed-config/Half-installed |/ Err?=(none)/Hold/Reinst-required/X=both-problems (Status,Err: uppercase=bad) ||/ Name Version Description +++-==============-==============-============================================ un kernel-image-2 (no description available) I have been trying since July 28th., when I first installed Debian to get sound running; It seems a long way off but I think I would like to bring my PC to the meeting the 2nd weekend of December and elicit your help if I may. I've become quite discouraged over this, I would like to move on to other things, there's much to do and learn but I'm bogged down. Nor can I remember how you did the sound test on your lap top, I neglected to note it down. Thanks for any help/advice that may come my way. Bill From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Dec 03 22:30:56 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18JT3g-0003yB-00 for ; Tue, 03 Dec 2002 22:30:56 -0800 Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 22:30:55 -0800 To: Conspire Subject: Re: [conspire] Soundconfig: Message-ID: <20021204063055.GM10059@linuxmafia.com> References: <1038754841.501.215.camel@skiffworks> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1038754841.501.215.camel@skiffworks> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 3726 Lines: 78 Hi, Bill! Quoting Bill Stoye (skiffworks@earthlink.net): > I got and ran 'sndconfig' as you suggested, it finished > without any errors but I must still be missing/not understanding > something; during shutdown a message scrolls up saying: Starting ALSA > sound driver (version none): modprobe: can't locate module snd failed. > > When I retry sndconfig I get the following: > > ERROR: No Sound Modules found > You don't seem to be running a kernel with modular > sound enabled. (soundcore.o was not found in the > module search path). > To use sndconfig, you must be running a kernel with > modular sound, such as the kernel shipped with Red Hat > Linux or a 2.2 or greater kernel. > > Looked up the following: > skiffworks:/home/bill# uname -r > 2.2.20-idepci Well, the "idepci" series of precompiled kernels are deliberately very pared down, so it's not really surprising that sound drivers are among the things left out. (The idea of the "idepci" ones is that you might need a kernel that omits support for some troublesome hardware in order to successfully complete installation, otherwise the installer's attempt to probe for those hardware components might freeze the installation attempt. The idea is that you'd replace the limited-drivers kernel afterwards with either a more-suitable precompiled kernel or a custom one that you compile for yourself.) The Debian 3.0-based laptop computer in front of me has "kernel-image-2.4.18-bf2.4". The "boot-flavour 2.4" packages are one of the many precompiled Debian kernels that include sound drivers. You can find others by looking through the available-packages catalogues (the *Packages ones) in your /var/lib/apt/lists/ directory -- or use a GUI tool like aptitude, synaptic, or whatever you prefer. You might do better with one of the _very_ standard procompiled kernels, like: kernel-image-2.4-686 (for PPro/Celeron/PII/PIII/PIV machines) kernel-image-2.4-686-smp (for PPro/Celeron/PII/PIII/PIV SMP machines) kernel-image-2.4-k6 (for AMD K6/K6-II/K6-III machines) kernel-image-2.4-k7 (for AMD K7/Athlon/Duron/Thunderbird machines) kernel-image-2.4-k7-smp (for AMD K7/Athlon/Duron/Thunderbird SMP machines) Any of those can be installed via apt-get. If you do, be very careful to follow any special instructions you see at that time, e.g., changes to /etc/lilo.conf . (At the minimum, take care to leave a paragraph in /etc/lilo.conf for your old 2.2.20-idepci kernel, so you can reboot using it, in the event your 2.4.x one has problems.) > I have been trying since July 28th., when I first installed Debian to > get sound running; It seems a long way off but I think I would like to > bring my PC to the meeting the 2nd weekend of December and elicit your > help if I may. Of course you're welcome to. Should be no big problem, I expect. Or you might want to do "apt-get install kernel-image-2.4-686" (or whatever version suits your CPU setup best), and try it out on your own. > Nor can I remember how you did the sound test on your lap top, I > neglected to note it down. I logged in as the root user, and then run "sndconfig". Everything else just works with no fuss. Sorry to hear about the problems, anyway. -- Cheers, It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. Rick Moen It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, rick@ The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning, linuxmafia.com It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. From skiffworks@earthlink.net Sun Dec 08 07:43:18 2002 Received: from grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.46]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18L3aO-0005Xr-00 for ; Sun, 08 Dec 2002 07:43:16 -0800 Received: from cpe-24-221-189-101.ca.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.189.101] helo=localhost.localdomain) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18L3Sp-00061U-00 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Sun, 08 Dec 2002 07:35:27 -0800 From: Bill Stoye To: Conspire Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.5 Date: 08 Dec 2002 07:35:49 -0800 Message-Id: <1039361757.498.87.camel@skiffworks> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: [conspire] Oops Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 220 Lines: 9 Oops! I said, "what to change in /etc/lilo.conf and with what, xterm or text editor lynx..." Sorry for that line, it should read Nano not Lynx and I would use Nano but I still don't know what changes to make. Bill From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Dec 08 14:11:30 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18L9e5-0000Uu-00 for ; Sun, 08 Dec 2002 14:11:29 -0800 Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 14:11:29 -0800 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Soundconfig: Message-ID: <20021208221129.GD29177@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 5958 Lines: 133 Bill's comment in a separate post makes clear that he meant to send the message below to the list, rather than to my private mail. So, I'm fixing that by lobbing a copy to the list. Bill, I notice that you use Ximian Evolution. Like any mailer of the last couple of decades, it includes the _two_ standard reply functions, Reply-to-Sender (Ctrl-R) and Reply-to-All (Ctrl-Shift-R). In any MUA with those two choices, on mailing lists you should accustom yourself to _always_ doing Reply-to-All as your default action. The exception should be when you wish to deliberately go off-list. Then and only then, use Reply-to-Sender (which is what you called "reply"). The message below was sent to me alone, because you used Reply-to-Sender by mistake. Happily, Evolution (like mutt) also has a third reply mode, tailored for even better results specifically on mailing lists, Reply-to-List. You'll have to consult your documentation on how exactly it works in Evolution. (I'm a mutt user.) ----- Forwarded message from Bill Stoye ----- Subject: Re: [conspire] Soundconfig: From: Bill Stoye To: Rick Moen X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.5 Date: 08 Dec 2002 06:44:56 -0800 I have to concede, I'm over my head. In a moment of wild abandonment, I used Synaptic to get 'kernel-image-2.4-686'; I freaked when I received the Error/warning message with special instructions to make changes to Lilo; I'm at a loss as to what to change in /etc/lilo.conf and with what, xterm or text editor lynx... apparently not lynx it gives me a can't open start file. Sorry for the delay in response, I needed a break, trying to prevent burnout. I was hoping I could get Debian going but maybe I need to go to a distro like Libranet. Thank you for your help Rick, Bill On Tue, 2002-12-03 at 22:30, Rick Moen wrote: > Hi, Bill! > > Quoting Bill Stoye (skiffworks@earthlink.net): > > > I got and ran 'sndconfig' as you suggested, it finished > > without any errors but I must still be missing/not understanding > > something; during shutdown a message scrolls up saying: Starting ALSA > > sound driver (version none): modprobe: can't locate module snd failed. > > > > When I retry sndconfig I get the following: > > > > ERROR: No Sound Modules found > > You don't seem to be running a kernel with modular > > sound enabled. (soundcore.o was not found in the > > module search path). > > To use sndconfig, you must be running a kernel with > > modular sound, such as the kernel shipped with Red Hat > > Linux or a 2.2 or greater kernel. > > > > Looked up the following: > > skiffworks:/home/bill# uname -r > > 2.2.20-idepci > > Well, the "idepci" series of precompiled kernels are deliberately very > pared down, so it's not really surprising that sound drivers are among > the things left out. (The idea of the "idepci" ones is that you might > need a kernel that omits support for some troublesome hardware in order > to successfully complete installation, otherwise the installer's attempt > to probe for those hardware components might freeze the installation > attempt. The idea is that you'd replace the limited-drivers kernel > afterwards with either a more-suitable precompiled kernel or a custom > one that you compile for yourself.) > > The Debian 3.0-based laptop computer in front of me has > "kernel-image-2.4.18-bf2.4". The "boot-flavour 2.4" packages are one of > the many precompiled Debian kernels that include sound drivers. You can > find others by looking through the available-packages catalogues (the > *Packages ones) in your /var/lib/apt/lists/ directory -- or use a GUI > tool like aptitude, synaptic, or whatever you prefer. > > You might do better with one of the _very_ standard procompiled kernels, > like: > > kernel-image-2.4-686 (for PPro/Celeron/PII/PIII/PIV machines) > kernel-image-2.4-686-smp (for PPro/Celeron/PII/PIII/PIV SMP machines) > kernel-image-2.4-k6 (for AMD K6/K6-II/K6-III machines) > kernel-image-2.4-k7 (for AMD K7/Athlon/Duron/Thunderbird machines) > kernel-image-2.4-k7-smp (for AMD K7/Athlon/Duron/Thunderbird SMP machines) > > Any of those can be installed via apt-get. If you do, be very careful > to follow any special instructions you see at that time, e.g., changes > to /etc/lilo.conf . (At the minimum, take care to leave a paragraph > in /etc/lilo.conf for your old 2.2.20-idepci kernel, so you can reboot > using it, in the event your 2.4.x one has problems.) > > > I have been trying since July 28th., when I first installed Debian to > > get sound running; It seems a long way off but I think I would like to > > bring my PC to the meeting the 2nd weekend of December and elicit your > > help if I may. > > Of course you're welcome to. Should be no big problem, I expect. Or > you might want to do "apt-get install kernel-image-2.4-686" (or whatever > version suits your CPU setup best), and try it out on your own. > > > Nor can I remember how you did the sound test on your lap top, I > > neglected to note it down. > > I logged in as the root user, and then run "sndconfig". Everything else > just works with no fuss. > > Sorry to hear about the problems, anyway. > > -- > Cheers, It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > Rick Moen It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, > rick@ The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning, > linuxmafia.com It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > > _______________________________________________ > conspire mailing list > conspire@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire ----- End forwarded message ----- From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Dec 08 15:26:46 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18LAow-0006Mc-00 for ; Sun, 08 Dec 2002 15:26:46 -0800 Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 15:26:46 -0800 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Soundconfig: Message-ID: <20021208232645.GE29177@linuxmafia.com> References: <20021208221129.GD29177@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021208221129.GD29177@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 6249 Lines: 146 Quoting Bill Stoye : > In a moment of wild abandonment, I used Synaptic to get > 'kernel-image-2.4-686'; I freaked when I received the Error/warning > message with special instructions to make changes to Lilo; I'm at a loss > as to what to change in /etc/lilo.conf and with what, xterm or text > editor nano.... At the time I wrote to you the first time, I only vaguely remembered the necessary details, so that's why I said (earlier): If you do, be very careful to follow any special instructions you see at that time, e.g., changes to /etc/lilo.conf . (At the minimum, take care to leave a paragraph in /etc/lilo.conf for your old 2.2.20-idepci kernel, so you can reboot using it, in the event your 2.4.x one has problems.) Apologies for not being more specific, but I couldn't remember at the time precisely what tweak you have to make to lilo. I _do_ remember, now, and you can probably find it in /usr/share/doc/kernel-image-2.4-686/LiloDefault.gz . (Use the "zless" tool to read such files.) Let me quote what _my_ 2.4.x Debian kernel's LiloDefault.gz file says on that subject, and then explain it to you in plain English, immediately afterwards: Recent official kernel image packages (starting with 2.4.X) have started installing initrd images. If you install one of these official images, you now have to provide lilo with a pointer to the respective initrd bootimage. Assuming that you are installing kernel 2.4.X-flavour, you need to add something like this to the lilo.conf: initrd=/boot/initrd-2.4.X-flavour ("initrd" stands for "initial RAMdisk".) OK, the plain English: In the old days, we didn't make much use of _modules_ for hardware driver software in our kernels. (A "module" is a hunk of code that's been compiled so that it can be dynamically loaded or unloaded from RAM by the running kernel, so that it's present if needed and removed from RAM if it isn't.) If we bought (e.g.) a new sound card, we just compiled a fresh kernel that included the necessary driver in the kernel image -- as part of a "monolithic" (non-modular) kernel. With the (now rather old) 2.2 kernel series, support for modular drivers in Linux improved greatly, and the Debian Project was one of the groups that adopted modular kernels most enthusiastically: If you look under /lib/modules, you'll find large trees of kernel modules, classified by category, for practically any conceivable hardware and for many other optional kernel features. This is why Debian (and many other distributions) has been able to install on such a wide range of hardware. When the 2.4 kernels came around, the Debian people decided to use a newly improved feature called the "initial RAMdisk" (initrd). The idea is that, in the early stages of the boot process, lilo (or any similar bootloader) will tell the booting kernel about the physical disk location of a RAMdisk image file that the kernel is to decompress into RAM and mount as a small RAMdisk, as the initial root filesystem. The RAMdisk contains extremely crucial hardware drivers such as those for your hard disk's host adapter and for certain key filesystem types (such as ext2). After pulling whatever drivers it needs from the RAMdisk, the kernel deallocates that RAM and mounts the _real_ root filesystem. Anyhow, for this to work, you have to make sure lilo knows where the RAMdisk image file is, so it can inform the booting kernel. To understand that, you might benefit from my "Zen of lilo" speech: A lot of people never learned the Zen of LILO: 1. /sbin/lilo (the "map installer") is best thought of as a compiler, and /etc/lilo.conf as its source code. 2. Therefore, if you change /etc/lilo.conf or any of the files it points to, you must run /sbin/lilo before rebooting, to "recompile". 3. You should always have a "safeboot" stanza in /etc/lilo, pointing to a known-good kernel image that you never fool with, as a fallback. This ensures that if, e.g., you compile a new kernel but accidentally omit console support, you can easily recover. If you look at your existing /etc/lilo.conf, you'll find that it's so cluttered with comment lines (starting with "#") that it's difficult to grasp. That's too bad. To fix this, I recommend you do: $ su - # cd /etc # cp lilo.conf lilo.conf-COMMENTED Then, pare down the original lilo.conf (using nano or whatever) to eliminate the comment clutter. Here's an example lilo.conf _without_ the comments, and with an "initrd" line suitable to my laptop's configuration: lba32 boot=/dev/hda root=/dev/hda3 install=menu map=/boot/map delay=20 vga=normal default=Linux image=/boot/vmlinuz label=linux initrd=/boot/initrd.img-2.4.18-686 read-only image=/boot/vmlinuz.old label=linuxold read-only The message you got was trying to tell you to insert an "initrd" line similar to the above, in the lilo.conf stanza for your new 2.4 kernel. If you _don't_ do that (and don't run /sbin/lilo afterwards, to implement the change), then the booting 2.4 kernel won't be able to find the drivers in the RAMdisk (because it won't know about the RAMdisk), and so won't be able to subsequently do things that require those drivers, such as find your root filesystem. The kernel package's installer script isn't smart enough to figure out every variation of lilo.conf contents, at least not well enough to edit it without your help, so, instead, it tells you what should be done and leaves it up to you. OK? I hope that helps. > Sorry for the delay in response, I needed a break, trying to prevent > burnout. I was hoping I could get Debian going but maybe I need to go to > a distro like Libranet. One nice thing about the Libranet installer is that it installs a 2.4 kernel with the necessary initrd line already in place. On the other hand, so do the many _Debian_ installers that install directly onto 2.4-based setups. (When installing Debian, look for "boot flavours", and pick the "bf2.4" flavour.) -- Cheers, The Viking's Reminder: Rick Moen Pillage first, _then_ burn. rick@linuxmafia.com From skiffworks@earthlink.net Mon Dec 09 08:01:24 2002 Received: from conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.54]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18LQLR-0000ZB-00 for ; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 08:01:22 -0800 Received: from cpe-24-221-189-101.ca.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.189.101] helo=localhost.localdomain) by conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18LQDk-0000xq-00 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 07:53:24 -0800 Subject: Re: [conspire] Soundconfig: From: Bill Stoye To: Conspire In-Reply-To: <20021208232645.GE29177@linuxmafia.com> References: <20021208221129.GD29177@linuxmafia.com> <20021208232645.GE29177@linuxmafia.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.5 Date: 09 Dec 2002 07:53:57 -0800 Message-Id: <1039449237.492.95.camel@skiffworks> Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 7649 Lines: 183 Scary thought but I may be starting to understand some of this. I understand what I need to do and with what; confusion still lies around when to do it, what step to make the change to 'lilo.conf' and what kernel should I be actually trying to install; should it be 2.4.18 and do I need -smp? Did: skiffworks:/lib/modules# ls 2.2.20-idepci 2.4.16-686-smp Synaptic shows 2.4.16-686-smp not installed, so the process, I believe is negated when when a error comes up during the installation. Another topic: I'm able to use 'zless' but when I try to use less I get no such command. skiffworks:~# man less No manual entry for less I thought less was more! Does xterm not have that command? Thank you for the background/lead in to making the changes to lilo.conf, it helps me get a grasp on what is going on, rather than just mimicking a input where I would learn to mimic, not understand. Bill On Sun, 2002-12-08 at 15:26, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Bill Stoye : > > > In a moment of wild abandonment, I used Synaptic to get > > 'kernel-image-2.4-686'; I freaked when I received the Error/warning > > message with special instructions to make changes to Lilo; I'm at a loss > > as to what to change in /etc/lilo.conf and with what, xterm or text > > editor nano.... > > At the time I wrote to you the first time, I only vaguely remembered > the necessary details, so that's why I said (earlier): > > If you do, be very careful to follow any special instructions you > see at that time, e.g., changes to /etc/lilo.conf . (At the > minimum, take care to leave a paragraph in /etc/lilo.conf for your > old 2.2.20-idepci kernel, so you can reboot using it, in the event > your 2.4.x one has problems.) > > Apologies for not being more specific, but I couldn't remember at the > time precisely what tweak you have to make to lilo. I _do_ remember, > now, and you can probably find it in > /usr/share/doc/kernel-image-2.4-686/LiloDefault.gz . (Use the "zless" > tool to read such files.) > > Let me quote what _my_ 2.4.x Debian kernel's LiloDefault.gz file says on > that subject, and then explain it to you in plain English, immediately > afterwards: > > Recent official kernel image packages (starting with 2.4.X) have > started installing initrd images. If you install one of these > official images, you now have to provide lilo with a pointer to the > respective initrd bootimage. Assuming that you are installing kernel > 2.4.X-flavour, you need to add something like this to the lilo.conf: > > initrd=/boot/initrd-2.4.X-flavour > > ("initrd" stands for "initial RAMdisk".) > > OK, the plain English: > > In the old days, we didn't make much use of _modules_ for hardware > driver software in our kernels. (A "module" is a hunk of code that's > been compiled so that it can be dynamically loaded or unloaded from RAM > by the running kernel, so that it's present if needed and removed from > RAM if it isn't.) If we bought (e.g.) a new sound card, we just > compiled a fresh kernel that included the necessary driver in the kernel > image -- as part of a "monolithic" (non-modular) kernel. > > With the (now rather old) 2.2 kernel series, support for modular drivers > in Linux improved greatly, and the Debian Project was one of the groups > that adopted modular kernels most enthusiastically: If you look under > /lib/modules, you'll find large trees of kernel modules, classified by > category, for practically any conceivable hardware and for many other > optional kernel features. This is why Debian (and many other > distributions) has been able to install on such a wide range of > hardware. > > When the 2.4 kernels came around, the Debian people decided to use a > newly improved feature called the "initial RAMdisk" (initrd). The idea > is that, in the early stages of the boot process, lilo (or any similar > bootloader) will tell the booting kernel about the physical disk > location of a RAMdisk image file that the kernel is to decompress into > RAM and mount as a small RAMdisk, as the initial root filesystem. The > RAMdisk contains extremely crucial hardware drivers such as those for > your hard disk's host adapter and for certain key filesystem types (such as > ext2). After pulling whatever drivers it needs from the RAMdisk, the > kernel deallocates that RAM and mounts the _real_ root filesystem. > > Anyhow, for this to work, you have to make sure lilo knows where the > RAMdisk image file is, so it can inform the booting kernel. > > To understand that, you might benefit from my "Zen of lilo" speech: > > A lot of people never learned the Zen of LILO: > > 1. /sbin/lilo (the "map installer") is best thought of as a compiler, > and /etc/lilo.conf as its source code. > 2. Therefore, if you change /etc/lilo.conf or any of the files it > points to, you must run /sbin/lilo before rebooting, to "recompile". > 3. You should always have a "safeboot" stanza in /etc/lilo, pointing > to a known-good kernel image that you never fool with, as a > fallback. This ensures that if, e.g., you compile a new kernel but > accidentally omit console support, you can easily recover. > > If you look at your existing /etc/lilo.conf, you'll find that it's so > cluttered with comment lines (starting with "#") that it's difficult to > grasp. That's too bad. To fix this, I recommend you do: > > $ su - > # cd /etc > # cp lilo.conf lilo.conf-COMMENTED > > Then, pare down the original lilo.conf (using nano or whatever) to > eliminate the comment clutter. > > Here's an example lilo.conf _without_ the comments, and with an "initrd" > line suitable to my laptop's configuration: > > lba32 > boot=/dev/hda > root=/dev/hda3 > install=menu > map=/boot/map > delay=20 > vga=normal > default=Linux > > image=/boot/vmlinuz > label=linux > initrd=/boot/initrd.img-2.4.18-686 > read-only > > image=/boot/vmlinuz.old > label=linuxold > read-only > > > The message you got was trying to tell you to insert an "initrd" line > similar to the above, in the lilo.conf stanza for your new 2.4 kernel. > If you _don't_ do that (and don't run /sbin/lilo afterwards, to > implement the change), then the booting 2.4 kernel won't be able to find > the drivers in the RAMdisk (because it won't know about the RAMdisk), > and so won't be able to subsequently do things that require those > drivers, such as find your root filesystem. > > The kernel package's installer script isn't smart enough to figure out > every variation of lilo.conf contents, at least not well enough to edit > it without your help, so, instead, it tells you what should be done and > leaves it up to you. > > OK? I hope that helps. > > > Sorry for the delay in response, I needed a break, trying to prevent > > burnout. I was hoping I could get Debian going but maybe I need to go to > > a distro like Libranet. > > One nice thing about the Libranet installer is that it installs a 2.4 > kernel with the necessary initrd line already in place. On the other > hand, so do the many _Debian_ installers that install directly onto > 2.4-based setups. (When installing Debian, look for "boot flavours", > and pick the "bf2.4" flavour.) > > -- > Cheers, The Viking's Reminder: > Rick Moen Pillage first, _then_ burn. > rick@linuxmafia.com > > _______________________________________________ > conspire mailing list > conspire@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire From rick@linuxmafia.com Mon Dec 09 10:28:56 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18LSeF-00048L-00 for ; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 10:28:55 -0800 Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 10:28:44 -0800 To: Conspire Subject: Re: [conspire] Soundconfig: Message-ID: <20021209182843.GZ29177@linuxmafia.com> References: <20021208221129.GD29177@linuxmafia.com> <20021208232645.GE29177@linuxmafia.com> <1039449237.492.95.camel@skiffworks> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1039449237.492.95.camel@skiffworks> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 15220 Lines: 385 Quoting Bill Stoye (skiffworks@earthlink.net): > Scary thought but I may be starting to understand some of this. Yes, I know the feeling. Some of us have the unfair advantage that we started using this stuff when it was less elaborate (if somewhat more user-hostile). But that at least puts us old-timers in a pretty good position to explain it. > I understand what I need to do and with what; confusion still lies > around when to do it, what step to make the change to 'lilo.conf' and > what kernel should I be actually trying to install; should it be 2.4.18 > and do I need -smp? I'll give you a stereotypically techie-type literal-minded answer first, and then try to put it in context. Ready? Techie/gearhead answer: Sure, you can use 2.4.18. Or 2.4.19. You can use -smp variants of the numerous precompiled kernels if your machine has more than one CPU. ("SMP" stands for symmetric multiprocessing, which is the way of dividing tasks among multiple CPUs on modern operating systems.) The change you should make to lilo.conf is to insert an "initrd=" line in the paragraph that describes your 2.4 kernel, e.g., initrd=/boot/initrd.img-2.4.18-686 And then, you should (as the root user) run "/sbin/lilo -v" to implement the change, checking the output to make sure it doesn't complain that anything can't be found. /sbin/lilo is the program that actually writes boot information to bootable areas of your hard disk, following the instructions you've provided for it in /etc/lilo.conf. It's vital that you not shut down or reboot until /sbin/lilo gives you error-free output. The "-v" just means verbose output, where it babbles about all the pieces it finds, looking up their file locations in lilo.conf, and tells you all about what it writes at the end. Probably-more-useful, in-context answer: Let's discuss the "SMP" thing, first. And the "-686" thing. The Debian package mirrors provide quite a diverse set of precompiled kernels, suitable for various types of hardware. Some PCs have multiple CPUs -- usually two, but (on i386-class) sometimes as many as eight, in some rackmount servers. The old Dell laptop in front of me ("guido") is a uniprocessor (one CPU) machine. You can find out about this (in Linux) by doing this: guido:~# cat /proc/cpuinfo processor : 0 vendor_id : GenuineIntel cpu family : 6 model : 6 model name : Mobile Pentium II stepping : 10 cpu MHz : 366.679 cache size : 256 KB fdiv_bug : no hlt_bug : no f00f_bug : no coma_bug : no fpu : yes fpu_exception : yes cpuid level : 2 wp : yes flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat p se36 mmx fxsr bogomips : 732.36 guido:~# In other words, it's a 366 MHz PII uniprocessor box. So, I would _not_ want to install a -smp kernel variant, and I'd want to make sure I installed one compiled with compiler optimisations for something approaching a PII. Now, you have synaptic handy to browse available-package listings. Please do so, to follow along. I personally prefer to page through the available-package listings directly, in either /var/lib/apt/lists/*Packages or /var/lib/dpkg/available . These are pure text files, as is your installed-packages database, /var/lib/dpkg/status. (Sometimes, it makes sense to fix glitches in Debian package handling by snipping something out of /var/lib/dpkg/status using a text editor!) I'm going to do: guido:~# less /var/lib/apt/lists/http.us.debian.org_debian_dists_testing_main_binary-i386_Packages (I know you don't have the "less" utility installed. I'll be getting to that in a minute.) I'm skipping forward (searching) to the first line that starts with "Package: kernel-image-2.4...." You can do the analogous lookup in synaptic, if you like. Ah! Here we have a bunch of them. (I'm on the Debian-testing branch. You didn't specify, but I'd guess you're on Debian-stable = 3.0 = woody, so you might not see some of these.) kernel-image-2.4-386 kernel-image-2.4-586tsc kernel-image-2.4-686 kernel-image-2.4-686-smp kernel-image-2.4-k6 kernel-image-2.4-k7 kernel-image-2.4-k7-smp kernel-image-2.4.18-386 kernel-image-2.4.18-586tsc kernel-image-2.4.18-686 kernel-image-2.4.18-686-smp kernel-image-2.4.18-bf2.4 kernel-image-2.4.18-k6 kernel-image-2.4.18-k7 kernel-image-2.4.19-386 kernel-image-2.4.19-586tsc kernel-image-2.4.19-686 kernel-image-2.4.19-686-smp kernel-image-2.4.19-k6 kernel-image-2.4.19-k7 kernel-image-2.4.19-k7-smp What are all of these? You have to read the descriptions. Notice that the first seven don't seem to have complete kernel version numbers: They just say "2.4". Let's look at the description for "kernel-image-2.4-686" (because it turns out to be a pretty good choice for PII uniprocessor boxes): Description: Linux kernel image 2.4 on PPro/Celeron/PII/PIII/PIV. This package will always depend on the latest 2.4 kernel image available for PPro/Celeron/PII/PIII/PIV machines. Above the description, one of the lines is: Depends: kernel-image-2.4.19-686 I just wanted to call your attention to that, to point out one of the simultaneously gratifying and infuriating things about Debian: One fine morning, you wake up and suddenly notice an utterly cool aspect of how Debian is working on your machine. You're pretty sure it didn't use to work that way, and nobody told you about it, but suddenly it's there. If you were to hassle the Debian developers about this lack of information, they'd probably say "Hey man, leave us alone. We're busy coding, and don't have time to spoon-feed you information." Whatever. Anyhow, if you install package "kernel-image-2.4-686", you'll get kernel-image-2.4.19-686 _today_, and will automatically progress up to kernel-image-2.4.nn-686, as nn goes to 20, 21, and on up -- whenever prepackaged kernels for those versions appear on the Debian package mirrors and you do an "apt-get update" and "apt-get dist-upgrade" session (or the synaptic equivalent). Now: You said you instructed synaptic to get you "kernel-image-2.4-686". You quite sensibly balked when you were advised to perform some surgery on /etc/lilo.conf that you didn't understand, and presumably you interrupted installation of that package. You also said: > Did: > skiffworks:/lib/modules# ls > 2.2.20-idepci 2.4.16-686-smp > > Synaptic shows 2.4.16-686-smp not installed, so the process, I believe > is negated when when a error comes up during the installation. So, I'm guessing that package "kernel-image-2.4-686" is a virtual package that (on the Debian-stable branch, right?) is set to retrieve physical package "kernel-image-2.4.18" or "kernel-image-2.4.19". You can/should check this for yourself, by reading the full package description for "kernel-image-2.4-686" in synaptic. I suspect that /lib/modules/2.4.16-686-smp is a leftover from some completely unrelated prior misadventure with kernel installations. At least, I can't otherwise imagine where that "-smp" came from, or why you'd have module pieces for a 2.4.16 kernel. Now, you should ask yourself: (1) Should I be using uniprocessor kernels or SMP? (2) Which compiler optimisation is appropriate for my machine: plain old 386, Pentium, PPro and above, K6, or Athlon? You presumably know what's inside your box; I don't. The safest but lower-performance choice is 386 optimisation. Every 386-or-later CPU will do that. It's what was used to compile your "2.2.20-idepci" kernel. Let's say that you have a uniprocessor PII-class machine (like my laptop). Then, you might tell synaptic to install "kernel-image-2.4-686" (which, in fact, you did -- but interrupted it). That will fetch the latest uniprocessor 2.4.x kernel image compiled for PPro (686) or higher. It's also going to install a file with a name like "initrd.img-2.4.18-686" in /boot. This is the matching initrd image, containing the most-crucial drivers for that kernel. > Another topic: > I'm able to use 'zless' but when I try to use less I get no such > command. > > skiffworks:~# man less > No manual entry for less Hmm, let's see what "zless" really is: guido:~# which zless /bin/zless OK, that's where it is. Now, let's see what type of file it is: guido:~# file $(which zless) /bin/zless: Bourne shell script text executable OK, it's a shell script (like a DOS batch file). Let's see its contents: guido:~# cat $(which zless) #!/bin/sh PATH="/usr/bin:$PATH"; export PATH LESSOPEN="|gzip -cdfq %s"; export LESSOPEN exec less "$@" Well, it appears that, quite understandably, "zless" just gunzips a file and pipes the output to "less". That's what I thought it was. Let's have a look at "less". First, where is it? guido:~# which less /usr/bin/less Now, what type of file is it? guido:~# file $(which less) /usr/bin/less: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (SYSV), for GNU/Linux 2.2.0, dynamically linked (uses shared libs), stripped That's also pretty predictable: It's a regular dynamic binary executable. But you say "less" isn't found on your system? How odd. Well, you can and should use synaptic to install it. (Me, I just type "apt-get install less" at the command line. One thing about Debian systems that tends to make them confusing to newcomers: Everything's at least potentially a la carte: If the person who constructed the system didn't want to install "less", then it probably isn't there. But it's dead easy to add anything initially omitted, that you later decide you want. The tough part is often realising that you're missing something in the first place. > I thought less was more! Does xterm not have that command? In the first place, you probably mean "bash", not xterm. xterm isn't a shell; it's just a mechanism to display shells under X11. The shell you're seeing/using in xterm is almost certainly bash, because that tends to be users' default shell, on Linux. So, to answer that question, no, less is not a shell builtin function. Neither is the "more" command. Only a few commands you commonly use are builtins, such as cd, alias, echo, exec, exit, export, fg, jobs, kill, pwd, and set. If "less" really isn't installed on your system, you should install it. (It's a little mysterious how zless could work without it, though. If you're curious about that, you could repeat the steps I listed above on your system, to investigate.) Anyhow, returning to your main problem: The thing to do is to make sure there's a paragraph in /etc/lilo.conf for your new 2.4 kernel, and that it includes an "initrd=" line pointing to the matching initrd* line in /boot. Ideally, the paragraph for your 2.4 kernel should be in _addition_ to the one for your 2.2 kernel, so that, if anything goes wildly wrong at reboot time with your 2.4 kernel, you can fall back to the 2.2 one instead of having to repair a suddenly non-bootable system. Once again, here's my laptop's lilo.conf file: lba32 boot=/dev/hda root=/dev/hda3 install=menu map=/boot/map delay=20 vga=normal default=linux image=/boot/vmlinuz label=linux initrd=/boot/initrd.img-2.4.18-686 read-only image=/boot/vmlinuz.old label=linuxold read-only Notice the two stanzas (paragraphs)? The second one, label=linuxold, is my fallback, safety stanza. When I first installed a 2.4 kernel, you bet your booty that it pointed to a known-good 2.2 kernel! /boot/vmlinuz.old is a symbolic link on my system, which I re-point from time to time, to a known-good kernel. Similarly, /boot/vmlinuz is also a symlink, which I point to the kernel I've most recently installed and _hope_ will be usable and not break anything. Another level of caution: Before you start editing lilo.conf, do this: $ su - # cd /etc # cp lilo.conf lilo-conf-KNOWN-GOOD Now, you can fool around with lilo.conf to your heart's content, knowing that you can always restore the original contents, if need be. The iron rule of lilo is: _Always_ verify that /sbin/lilo runs without error, before rebooting or shutting down. Here's my laptop's "/sbin/lilo" output without the "-v" (verbose) flag: guido:~# lilo Added linux * Added linuxold guido:~/# Here it is with "-v": guido:~# lilo -v LILO version 22.3.3, Copyright (C) 1992-1998 Werner Almesberger Development beyond version 21 Copyright (C) 1999-2002 John Coffman Released 30-Aug-2002 and compiled at 15:38:21 on Sep 1 2002. Reading boot sector from /dev/hda Using MENU secondary loader Calling map_insert_data Boot image: /boot/vmlinuz -> vmlinuz-2.4.18-bf2.4 Mapping RAM disk /boot/initrd.img-2.4.18-686 Added linux * Boot image: /boot/vmlinuz.old -> vmlinuz-2.4.18-bf2.4 Added linuxold /boot/boot.0300 exists - no backup copy made. Writing boot sector. guido:~# (The "no backup made" sounds alarming, but is a harmless advisory.) Notice that it babbles about all the pieces that it locates, based on their declared locations in /etc/lilo.conf. If it had been unable to find any of those components, it would have complained. (Actually, /sbin/lilo attempts to failsafe in such cases, by stopping immediately if it can't find something mentioned in lilo.conf . But you might still have a problem if this leaves you without a valid boot configuration.) Now, if you examine the above output closely, you'll notice something odd: At the moment, my "label=linux" and "label=linuxold" stanzas actually point to the same 2.4.18-bf2.4 kernel image. This is because I recently came to have enough faith in this kernel that I threw away my old 2.2 kernel and related modules, just to save space. But I wanted the fallback mechanism to be still there for the _next_ time I play with new kernels, so I repointed the /boot/vmlinuz.old symlink to the 2.4 kernel image file. Next time I install a new kernel, I'll point the /boot/vmlinuz symlink to it, but not /boot/vmlinuz.old. I hope that makes sense. You'll probably find that your existing /etc/lilo.conf refers to stuff in the system root directory, e.g., symlinks /vmlinuz and /vmlinuz.old . I object to such clutter in my root directory, and so moved those to /boot and edited /etc/lilo.conf accordingly. > Thank you for the background/lead in to making the changes to lilo.conf, > it helps me get a grasp on what is going on, rather than just mimicking > a input where I would learn to mimic, not understand. Statements like the above are why I take the trouble. It's always a pleasure to see people "getting it". If you ever need to consult my little "Zen of lilo" piece (the three brief rules that keep you out of trouble, and help you understand the little thing), it's at: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/zen-of-lilo It's something I wrote to answer a question sent to the Linux Gazette Answer Gang, and is also included in the latest (Dec. 2002) LG issue: http://www.linuxgazette.com/ -- Cheers, There are only 10 types of people in this world -- Rick Moen those who understand binary arithmetic and those who don't. rick@linuxmafia.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Mon Dec 09 11:20:30 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18LTS9-00061M-00 for ; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 11:20:29 -0800 Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 11:20:29 -0800 From: Rick Moen To: Conspire Subject: Re: [conspire] Soundconfig: Message-ID: <20021209192029.GA29177@linuxmafia.com> References: <20021208221129.GD29177@linuxmafia.com> <20021208232645.GE29177@linuxmafia.com> <1039449237.492.95.camel@skiffworks> <20021209182843.GZ29177@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021209182843.GZ29177@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 4772 Lines: 109 Just a couple of afterthoughts (corrections and comments): > Once again, here's my laptop's lilo.conf file: > > lba32 > boot=/dev/hda > root=/dev/hda3 > install=menu > map=/boot/map > delay=20 > vga=normal > default=linux > > image=/boot/vmlinuz > label=linux > initrd=/boot/initrd.img-2.4.18-686 > read-only > > image=/boot/vmlinuz.old > label=linuxold > read-only The attentive reader will have noticed that I screwed up, big time: Although the "label=linux" has the necessary initrd reference, the "label=linuxold" one, my _safety fallback_ stanza, lacks it. This is an artifact of my having thrown out my old 2.2 kernel only a few days ago, and having done a half-assed job of cleaning up. That stanza worked beautifully with the 2.2 kernel, which did _not_ depend on an initial RAMdisk. I left that stanza alone while checking the 2.4 kernel, to ensure that the latter booted correctly and supported all hardware. Then, I blew away the 2.2 kernel, repointed the "vmlinuz.old" symlink to the 2.4 kernel image, re-ran "/sbin/lilo -v" to make sure there were no errors, and quit. In fact, the above lilo.conf file would eventually have bit me in the ass, if I'd not noticed my error in time: If I'd tried a new kernel using the "label=linux" stanza and it turned out not to work, I would have found out that my "safety fallback" was not safe, and failed to fall back. (Fortunately, it's not difficult to recover with a maintenance floppy or LNX-BBC disk or such, even if you screw up lilo.) I really should have made sure that _both_ stanzas actually booted, before quitting my reconfiguration of lilo. (I've fixed it, for now, by moving the "initrd" line into the globals section above the boot stanzas, where it will apply to both stanzas. And then, of course, I re-ran /sbin/lilo.) The attentive reader who also read my earlier post from the other day will have noticed that I pulled a fast one in the above /etc/lilo.conf contents: The version above says "default=linux", while the one I posted yesterday said "default=Linux". Note the difference in capitalisation. lilo.conf's "default" line specifies which stanza to use as the default boot. You can have "default=foo", where foo is one of the "label=" items. If there is no "default=" line, then the first stanza will be the default. Debian's default lilo.conf gets initially constructed with _one_ stanza, whose label is "Linux" (capital-L "Linux"). Rather absurdly since there's only one stanza, they also put "default=Linux" in there. I decided that it's rather silly to have to use a shift key to type in a label name at LILO boot prompts, so I changed the stanza's label to "linux" (lowercase-L linux). However, I forgot to update the "default=Linux" line. Fortunately, /sbin/lilo seems to ignore such a line if it doesn't match any of the included stanzas' labels. I suddenly noticed the error this morning, while answering Bill's post, and fixed it on the fly. I'm mentioning it now in case anyone was confused by the earlier lilo.conf post, or by the silent fix since then. > Now, you can fool around with lilo.conf to your heart's content, knowing > that you can always restore the original contents, if need be. > > The iron rule of lilo is: _Always_ verify that /sbin/lilo runs without > error, before rebooting or shutting down. I do _not_ mean by the above that you must do so before _any_ shutdown or reboot -- just that you should do that if you've made any changes to lilo.conf or the files it points to. The whole purpose of /sbin/lilo is to look up the _physical_ disk locations (cylinders, heads, sectors per track) of all the objects mentioned in lilo.conf, and write bootable information to a special hard disk location read during the boot process, such that the needed kernel image, map, initial RAMdisk, and so on can be found from their _physical_ locations alone, by a kernel that doesn't yet know how to read filesystems or read directory trees. The booting kernel thereby gains access to sets of drivers that furnish those missing abilities, allowing it to then mount the root filesystem, start the init process, and so on. If you move any of the objects that must be found at boot time, then the physical-location information previously written to the special boot-time hard disk location by /sbin/lilo will be obsolete and in need of updating. Thus the need to re-run /sbin/lilo. Ditto if you make revisions/additions to the lilo.conf file: Those simply won't be implemented until you re-run /sbin/lilo. I hope the above makes matters a little clearer. -- Cheers, The shortest distance between two puns is a straightline. Rick Moen rick@linuxmafia.com From skiffworks@earthlink.net Wed Dec 11 05:11:03 2002 Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.50]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18M6dj-0003xn-00 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 05:11:03 -0800 Received: from cpe-24-221-189-101.ca.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.189.101] helo=localhost.localdomain) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18M6W2-0000Bz-00 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 05:03:06 -0800 Subject: Re: [conspire] Soundconfig: From: Bill Stoye To: Conspire In-Reply-To: <20021209182843.GZ29177@linuxmafia.com> References: <20021208221129.GD29177@linuxmafia.com> <20021208232645.GE29177@linuxmafia.com> <1039449237.492.95.camel@skiffworks> <20021209182843.GZ29177@linuxmafia.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.5 Date: 11 Dec 2002 05:03:38 -0800 Message-Id: <1039611823.473.75.camel@skiffworks> Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 21039 Lines: 553 Running 'Woody'; Made change to /etc/lilo.conf; Using Synaptic, selected/installed kernel image 2.4.18-686; Testing lilo failed; Continued, figuring the fail was in vmlinuz.old, mustered up courage, reboot.... worked; Ran sndconfig and recieved, ERROR: No Sound Modules found; Did, uname -r (2.2.20-idepci)??? I don't know what to ask, I'm at a loss; a history of what was done is below, maybe more than needed but didn't know what to include or leave out. Failing miserably; Bill ***************************************************** You are attempting to install an initrd kernel image (version 2.4.18-686) This will not work unless you have configured your boot loader to use initrd. (An initrd image is a kernel image that expects to use an INITial Ram Disk to mount a minimal root file system into RAM and use that for booting). As a reminder, in order to configure lilo, you need to add an 'initrd=/initrd.img' to the image=/vmlinuz stanza of your /etc/lilo.conf I repeat, You need to configure your boot loader. If you have already done so, and you wish to get rid of this message, please put `do_initrd = Yes' in /etc/kernel-img.conf. Note that this is optional, but if you do not, you'll contitnue to see this message whenever you install a kernel image using initrd. Do you want to stop now? [Y/n]n Setting up kernel-image-2.4.18-686 (2.4.18-5) ... useful if you use a boot loader like lilo. Do you want me to create a link from /boot/initrd.img-2.4.18-686 to initrd.img?[Yn] y A new kernel image has been installed, and usually that means that some action has to be taken to make sure that the new kernel image is used next time the machine boots. Usually, this entails running a ``bootloader'' like SILO, loadlin, LILO, ELILO, QUIK, VMELILO, ZIPL, or booting from a floppy. (Some boot loader, like grub, for example, do not need to be run on each new image install, so please ignore this if you are using such a boot loader). A new kernel image has been installed. at /boot/vmlinuz-2.4.18-686 (Size: 618kB) Initial rootdisk image: /boot//initrd.img-2.4.18-686 (Size: ) Symbolic links, unless otherwise specified, can be found in / LILO sets up your system to boot Linux directly from your hard disk, without the need for booting from a boot floppy. WARNING If you are keeping another operating system or another version of Linux on a separate disk partition, you should not have LILO install a boot block now. Wait until you read the LILO documentation. That is because installing a boot block now might make the other system un-bootable. If you only want to run this version of Linux, go ahead and install the boot block here. If it does not work, you can still boot this system from a boot floppy. You already have a LILO configuration in /etc/lilo.conf Install a boot block using the existing /etc/lilo.conf? [Yes] Testing lilo.conf ... An error occurred while running lilo in test mode, a log is available in /var/log/lilo_log.1061. Please edit /etc/lilo.conf manually and re-run lilo, or make other arrangements to boot your machine. Please hit return to continue Finished. ********************************************* GNU nano 1.0.6 File: /var/log/lilo_log.1061 Added Linux * Fatal: open /boot/initrd.img-2.2.20-idepci: No such file or directory ****************************** GNU nano 1.0.6 File: /etc/lilo.conf lba32 boot=/dev/hda root=/dev/hda4 install=/boot/boot-menu.b map=/boot/map delay=20 prompt timeout=150 vga=normal default=Linux image=/vmlinuz label=Linux initrd=/boot/initrd.img-2.4.18-686 read-only image=/vmlinuz.old label=LinuxOLD initrd=/boot/initrd.img-2.2.20-idepci read-only optional other=/dev/hda1 label="Windows(hda1)" other=/dev/hda2 label="Linux(hda2)" ******************************************** skiffworks:/home/bill# /sbin/lilo -v LILO version 22.2, Copyright (C) 1992-1998 Werner Almesberger Development beyond version 21 Copyright (C) 1999-2001 John Coffman Released 05-Feb-2002 and compiled at 20:57:26 on Apr 13 2002. MAX_IMAGES = 27 Reading boot sector from /dev/hda Merging with /boot/boot-menu.b Boot image: /vmlinuz -> boot/vmlinuz-2.4.18-686 Mapping RAM disk /boot/initrd.img-2.4.18-686 Added Linux * Boot image: /vmlinuz.old -> boot/vmlinuz-2.2.20-idepci Mapping RAM disk /boot/initrd.img-2.2.20-idepci Fatal: open /boot/initrd.img-2.2.20-idepci: No such file or directory **************************** skiffworks:/lib/modules# ls 2.2.20-idepci 2.4.18-68 ********************* skiffworks:/home/bill# uname -r 2.2.20-idepci --END-- ********************************************** ********************************************** On Mon, 2002-12-09 at 10:28, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Bill Stoye (skiffworks@earthlink.net): > > > Scary thought but I may be starting to understand some of this. > > Yes, I know the feeling. Some of us have the unfair advantage that > we started using this stuff when it was less elaborate (if somewhat more > user-hostile). But that at least puts us old-timers in a pretty good > position to explain it. > > > I understand what I need to do and with what; confusion still lies > > around when to do it, what step to make the change to 'lilo.conf' and > > what kernel should I be actually trying to install; should it be 2.4.18 > > and do I need -smp? > > I'll give you a stereotypically techie-type literal-minded answer first, > and then try to put it in context. Ready? > > Techie/gearhead answer: > > Sure, you can use 2.4.18. Or 2.4.19. You can use -smp variants of the > numerous precompiled kernels if your machine has more than one CPU. > ("SMP" stands for symmetric multiprocessing, which is the way of > dividing tasks among multiple CPUs on modern operating systems.) > > The change you should make to lilo.conf is to insert an "initrd=" line > in the paragraph that describes your 2.4 kernel, e.g., > initrd=/boot/initrd.img-2.4.18-686 > > And then, you should (as the root user) run "/sbin/lilo -v" to implement > the change, checking the output to make sure it doesn't complain that > anything can't be found. /sbin/lilo is the program that actually writes > boot information to bootable areas of your hard disk, following the > instructions you've provided for it in /etc/lilo.conf. It's vital that > you not shut down or reboot until /sbin/lilo gives you error-free > output. The "-v" just means verbose output, where it babbles about all > the pieces it finds, looking up their file locations in lilo.conf, and > tells you all about what it writes at the end. > > Probably-more-useful, in-context answer: > > Let's discuss the "SMP" thing, first. And the "-686" thing. > > The Debian package mirrors provide quite a diverse set of precompiled > kernels, suitable for various types of hardware. Some PCs have multiple > CPUs -- usually two, but (on i386-class) sometimes as many as eight, in > some rackmount servers. The old Dell laptop in front of me ("guido") is a > uniprocessor (one CPU) machine. You can find out about this (in Linux) > by doing this: > > guido:~# cat /proc/cpuinfo > processor : 0 > vendor_id : GenuineIntel > cpu family : 6 > model : 6 > model name : Mobile Pentium II > stepping : 10 > cpu MHz : 366.679 > cache size : 256 KB > fdiv_bug : no > hlt_bug : no > f00f_bug : no > coma_bug : no > fpu : yes > fpu_exception : yes > cpuid level : 2 > wp : yes > flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 sep mtrr pge mca > cmov pat p > se36 mmx fxsr > bogomips : 732.36 > > guido:~# > > In other words, it's a 366 MHz PII uniprocessor box. So, I would _not_ > want to install a -smp kernel variant, and I'd want to make sure I > installed one compiled with compiler optimisations for something > approaching a PII. > > Now, you have synaptic handy to browse available-package listings. > Please do so, to follow along. I personally prefer to page through the > available-package listings directly, in either > /var/lib/apt/lists/*Packages or /var/lib/dpkg/available . These are > pure text files, as is your installed-packages database, > /var/lib/dpkg/status. (Sometimes, it makes sense to fix glitches in > Debian package handling by snipping something out of > /var/lib/dpkg/status using a text editor!) > > I'm going to do: > > guido:~# less /var/lib/apt/lists/http.us.debian.org_debian_dists_testing_main_binary-i386_Packages > > (I know you don't have the "less" utility installed. I'll be getting to > that in a minute.) > > I'm skipping forward (searching) to the first line that starts with > "Package: kernel-image-2.4...." You can do the analogous lookup in > synaptic, if you like. > > Ah! Here we have a bunch of them. (I'm on the Debian-testing branch. > You didn't specify, but I'd guess you're on Debian-stable = 3.0 = woody, > so you might not see some of these.) > > kernel-image-2.4-386 > kernel-image-2.4-586tsc > kernel-image-2.4-686 > kernel-image-2.4-686-smp > kernel-image-2.4-k6 > kernel-image-2.4-k7 > kernel-image-2.4-k7-smp > kernel-image-2.4.18-386 > kernel-image-2.4.18-586tsc > kernel-image-2.4.18-686 > kernel-image-2.4.18-686-smp > kernel-image-2.4.18-bf2.4 > kernel-image-2.4.18-k6 > kernel-image-2.4.18-k7 > kernel-image-2.4.19-386 > kernel-image-2.4.19-586tsc > kernel-image-2.4.19-686 > kernel-image-2.4.19-686-smp > kernel-image-2.4.19-k6 > kernel-image-2.4.19-k7 > kernel-image-2.4.19-k7-smp > > What are all of these? You have to read the descriptions. Notice that > the first seven don't seem to have complete kernel version numbers: > They just say "2.4". Let's look at the description for > "kernel-image-2.4-686" (because it turns out to be a pretty good choice > for PII uniprocessor boxes): > > Description: Linux kernel image 2.4 on PPro/Celeron/PII/PIII/PIV. > This package will always depend on the latest 2.4 kernel image available > for PPro/Celeron/PII/PIII/PIV machines. > > Above the description, one of the lines is: > > Depends: kernel-image-2.4.19-686 > > I just wanted to call your attention to that, to point out one of the > simultaneously gratifying and infuriating things about Debian: One fine > morning, you wake up and suddenly notice an utterly cool aspect of how > Debian is working on your machine. You're pretty sure it didn't use to > work that way, and nobody told you about it, but suddenly it's there. > If you were to hassle the Debian developers about this lack of > information, they'd probably say "Hey man, leave us alone. We're busy > coding, and don't have time to spoon-feed you information." Whatever. > > Anyhow, if you install package "kernel-image-2.4-686", you'll get > kernel-image-2.4.19-686 _today_, and will automatically progress up to > kernel-image-2.4.nn-686, as nn goes to 20, 21, and on up -- whenever > prepackaged kernels for those versions appear on the Debian package > mirrors and you do an "apt-get update" and "apt-get dist-upgrade" > session (or the synaptic equivalent). > > Now: You said you instructed synaptic to get you > "kernel-image-2.4-686". You quite sensibly balked when you were advised > to perform some surgery on /etc/lilo.conf that you didn't understand, > and presumably you interrupted installation of that package. You also > said: > > > Did: > > skiffworks:/lib/modules# ls > > 2.2.20-idepci 2.4.16-686-smp > > > > Synaptic shows 2.4.16-686-smp not installed, so the process, I believe > > is negated when when a error comes up during the installation. > > So, I'm guessing that package "kernel-image-2.4-686" is a virtual > package that (on the Debian-stable branch, right?) is set to retrieve > physical package "kernel-image-2.4.18" or "kernel-image-2.4.19". You > can/should check this for yourself, by reading the full package > description for "kernel-image-2.4-686" in synaptic. > > I suspect that /lib/modules/2.4.16-686-smp is a leftover from some > completely unrelated prior misadventure with kernel installations. > At least, I can't otherwise imagine where that "-smp" came from, or > why you'd have module pieces for a 2.4.16 kernel. > > Now, you should ask yourself: (1) Should I be using uniprocessor > kernels or SMP? (2) Which compiler optimisation is appropriate for > my machine: plain old 386, Pentium, PPro and above, K6, or Athlon? > You presumably know what's inside your box; I don't. The safest but > lower-performance choice is 386 optimisation. Every 386-or-later CPU > will do that. It's what was used to compile your "2.2.20-idepci" > kernel. > > Let's say that you have a uniprocessor PII-class machine (like my > laptop). Then, you might tell synaptic to install > "kernel-image-2.4-686" (which, in fact, you did -- but interrupted it). > That will fetch the latest uniprocessor 2.4.x kernel image compiled for > PPro (686) or higher. It's also going to install a file with a name > like "initrd.img-2.4.18-686" in /boot. This is the matching initrd > image, containing the most-crucial drivers for that kernel. > > > Another topic: > > I'm able to use 'zless' but when I try to use less I get no such > > command. > > > > skiffworks:~# man less > > No manual entry for less > > Hmm, let's see what "zless" really is: > > guido:~# which zless > /bin/zless > > OK, that's where it is. Now, let's see what type of file it is: > > guido:~# file $(which zless) > /bin/zless: Bourne shell script text executable > > OK, it's a shell script (like a DOS batch file). Let's see its > contents: > > guido:~# cat $(which zless) > #!/bin/sh > PATH="/usr/bin:$PATH"; export PATH > LESSOPEN="|gzip -cdfq %s"; export LESSOPEN > exec less "$@" > > Well, it appears that, quite understandably, "zless" just gunzips a file > and pipes the output to "less". That's what I thought it was. Let's > have a look at "less". First, where is it? > > guido:~# which less > /usr/bin/less > > Now, what type of file is it? > > guido:~# file $(which less) > /usr/bin/less: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (SYSV), > for GNU/Linux 2.2.0, dynamically linked (uses shared libs), stripped > > That's also pretty predictable: It's a regular dynamic binary > executable. > > But you say "less" isn't found on your system? How odd. Well, you can > and should use synaptic to install it. (Me, I just type "apt-get > install less" at the command line. One thing about Debian systems that > tends to make them confusing to newcomers: Everything's at least > potentially a la carte: If the person who constructed the system didn't > want to install "less", then it probably isn't there. But it's dead > easy to add anything initially omitted, that you later decide you want. > The tough part is often realising that you're missing something in the > first place. > > > I thought less was more! Does xterm not have that command? > > In the first place, you probably mean "bash", not xterm. xterm isn't a > shell; it's just a mechanism to display shells under X11. The shell > you're seeing/using in xterm is almost certainly bash, because that > tends to be users' default shell, on Linux. > > So, to answer that question, no, less is not a shell builtin function. > Neither is the "more" command. Only a few commands you commonly use > are builtins, such as cd, alias, echo, exec, exit, export, fg, jobs, > kill, pwd, and set. > > If "less" really isn't installed on your system, you should install it. > (It's a little mysterious how zless could work without it, though. > If you're curious about that, you could repeat the steps I listed above > on your system, to investigate.) > > Anyhow, returning to your main problem: The thing to do is to make sure > there's a paragraph in /etc/lilo.conf for your new 2.4 kernel, and that > it includes an "initrd=" line pointing to the matching initrd* line in > /boot. Ideally, the paragraph for your 2.4 kernel should be in > _addition_ to the one for your 2.2 kernel, so that, if anything goes > wildly wrong at reboot time with your 2.4 kernel, you can fall back to > the 2.2 one instead of having to repair a suddenly non-bootable system. > Once again, here's my laptop's lilo.conf file: > > lba32 > boot=/dev/hda > root=/dev/hda3 > install=menu > map=/boot/map > delay=20 > vga=normal > default=linux > > image=/boot/vmlinuz > label=linux > initrd=/boot/initrd.img-2.4.18-686 > read-only > > image=/boot/vmlinuz.old > label=linuxold > read-only > > Notice the two stanzas (paragraphs)? The second one, label=linuxold, > is my fallback, safety stanza. When I first installed a 2.4 kernel, you > bet your booty that it pointed to a known-good 2.2 kernel! > > /boot/vmlinuz.old is a symbolic link on my system, which I re-point > from time to time, to a known-good kernel. Similarly, /boot/vmlinuz > is also a symlink, which I point to the kernel I've most recently > installed and _hope_ will be usable and not break anything. > > Another level of caution: Before you start editing lilo.conf, do this: > > $ su - > # cd /etc > # cp lilo.conf lilo-conf-KNOWN-GOOD > > Now, you can fool around with lilo.conf to your heart's content, knowing > that you can always restore the original contents, if need be. > > The iron rule of lilo is: _Always_ verify that /sbin/lilo runs without > error, before rebooting or shutting down. Here's my laptop's > "/sbin/lilo" output without the "-v" (verbose) flag: > > guido:~# lilo > Added linux * > Added linuxold > guido:~/# > > Here it is with "-v": > > guido:~# lilo -v > LILO version 22.3.3, Copyright (C) 1992-1998 Werner Almesberger > Development beyond version 21 Copyright (C) 1999-2002 John Coffman > Released 30-Aug-2002 and compiled at 15:38:21 on Sep 1 2002. > > Reading boot sector from /dev/hda > Using MENU secondary loader > Calling map_insert_data > > Boot image: /boot/vmlinuz -> vmlinuz-2.4.18-bf2.4 > Mapping RAM disk /boot/initrd.img-2.4.18-686 > Added linux * > > Boot image: /boot/vmlinuz.old -> vmlinuz-2.4.18-bf2.4 > Added linuxold > > /boot/boot.0300 exists - no backup copy made. > Writing boot sector. > guido:~# > > (The "no backup made" sounds alarming, but is a harmless advisory.) > > Notice that it babbles about all the pieces that it locates, based on > their declared locations in /etc/lilo.conf. If it had been unable to > find any of those components, it would have complained. (Actually, > /sbin/lilo attempts to failsafe in such cases, by stopping immediately > if it can't find something mentioned in lilo.conf . But you might still > have a problem if this leaves you without a valid boot configuration.) > > Now, if you examine the above output closely, you'll notice something > odd: At the moment, my "label=linux" and "label=linuxold" stanzas > actually point to the same 2.4.18-bf2.4 kernel image. This is because > I recently came to have enough faith in this kernel that I threw away my > old 2.2 kernel and related modules, just to save space. But I wanted > the fallback mechanism to be still there for the _next_ time I play with > new kernels, so I repointed the /boot/vmlinuz.old symlink to the 2.4 > kernel image file. Next time I install a new kernel, I'll point the > /boot/vmlinuz symlink to it, but not /boot/vmlinuz.old. > > I hope that makes sense. You'll probably find that your existing > /etc/lilo.conf refers to stuff in the system root directory, e.g., > symlinks /vmlinuz and /vmlinuz.old . I object to such clutter in my > root directory, and so moved those to /boot and edited /etc/lilo.conf > accordingly. > > > Thank you for the background/lead in to making the changes to lilo.conf, > > it helps me get a grasp on what is going on, rather than just mimicking > > a input where I would learn to mimic, not understand. > > Statements like the above are why I take the trouble. It's always a > pleasure to see people "getting it". > > If you ever need to consult my little "Zen of lilo" piece (the three > brief rules that keep you out of trouble, and help you understand the > little thing), it's at: > http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/zen-of-lilo > > It's something I wrote to answer a question sent to the Linux Gazette > Answer Gang, and is also included in the latest (Dec. 2002) LG issue: > http://www.linuxgazette.com/ > > -- > Cheers, There are only 10 types of people in this world -- > Rick Moen those who understand binary arithmetic and those who don't. > rick@linuxmafia.com > > _______________________________________________ > conspire mailing list > conspire@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire From skiffworks@earthlink.net Wed Dec 11 07:19:40 2002 Received: from falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.74]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18M8eC-0003cL-00 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 07:19:40 -0800 Received: from cpe-24-221-189-101.ca.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.189.101] helo=localhost.localdomain) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18M8WR-0003XJ-00 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 07:11:39 -0800 From: Bill Stoye To: Conspire Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.5 Date: 11 Dec 2002 07:12:16 -0800 Message-Id: <1039619537.472.142.camel@skiffworks> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: [conspire] A Beginner's Guide to Linux Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 269 Lines: 11 In NYT Circuits: A Beginner's Guide to Linux By DAVID POGUE December 5, 2002: My feedback if interested: Bill From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Dec 11 19:59:49 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18MKVo-0002qe-00 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 19:59:48 -0800 Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 19:59:48 -0800 To: Conspire Subject: Re: [conspire] A Beginner's Guide to Linux Message-ID: <20021212035948.GW29177@linuxmafia.com> References: <1039619537.472.142.camel@skiffworks> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1039619537.472.142.camel@skiffworks> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1292 Lines: 34 Quoting Bill Stoye (skiffworks@earthlink.net): > In NYT Circuits: > A Beginner's Guide to Linux > By DAVID POGUE > December 5, 2002: > > My feedback if interested: > A well-written letter -- and you're right that it was one of the better tire-kicking Linux articles we've seen, lately. Usually, when I see a mainstream reporter's "Let's look in on Linux" article, I brace myself for babbling idiocy, but David Pogue seems pretty fair-minded and articulate. Good for him. Oh, by the way -- not really relevant to the above, but you reminded me of it, since you mention in your feedback that you run Debian: I have a long lumberyard of Debian tips at http://linuxmafia.com/debian/tips . You might find it useful. Two things, though: 1. I have to apologise for its extreme lack of organisation. Will rewrite it completely, but not today. 2. Because it grew in chronological order, newer and probably more-useful stuff is nearer to the bottom. -- Cheers, "Azathoth need not be present to win." Rick Moen -- Charles O. Baucum, Jr. rick@linuxmafia.com From maffulli@fsfeurope.org Mon Dec 23 19:22:03 2002 Received: from [149.137.240.123] (helo=plusultraII.stef.intranet) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18Qfdq-0007Xk-00 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 19:22:03 -0800 Received: by plusultraII.stef.intranet (Postfix, from userid 501) id D91B514443; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 21:19:30 -0500 (EST) From: Stefano Maffulli To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: Message-Id: <1040696370.2036.11.camel@plusultraII> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.0-3mdk Date: 24 Dec 2002 03:19:30 +0100 Subject: [conspire] information about the meetings Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 672 Lines: 17 Hi guys I'm on a holyday trip in the bay area and was thinking of coming to visit you at your next meeting the 28th of december. I read on the bale site that it will not be held. Could you confirm me that sad news please? Werner "gnupg" Koch asked me to sign as many gpg keys as possible to strengthen the web of trust and I don't want to disappoint him :) I am the Italian coordinator of the Free Software Foundation Europe. I am staying in Alamo, close to Walnut Creek until the 30th. If any of you wants to spend some time taking a cup of coffee and exchange opinion on GNU or anything else write me a note please. Regards, and have a nice christmas stefano From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Dec 24 00:56:19 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18QkrF-0007Ww-00; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 00:56:13 -0800 Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 00:56:08 -0800 To: Stefano Maffulli Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] information about the meetings Message-ID: <20021224085608.GA21323@linuxmafia.com> References: <1040696370.2036.11.camel@plusultraII> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1040696370.2036.11.camel@plusultraII> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1425 Lines: 35 Quoting Stefano Maffulli (maffulli@fsfeurope.org): > Hi guys Hi, Stefano! I've set the mailing list to allow all future posts from your address to go through automatically. You might want to subscribe to the list, if you want to receive copies of list traffic (http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire). > I'm on a holyday trip in the bay area and was thinking of coming to > visit you at your next meeting the 28th of december. I read on the > bale site that it will not be held. Could you confirm me that sad > news please? Officially, there's no meeting because of it being in the middle of the holiday period. (Few people attend meetings that are scheduled between Christmas and New Year's Day.) However, anyone who comes anyway will be very welcome. And I'd be very glad to sign your gnupg key! By the way, you might know my friend David Welton, who's a free software programmer and lives most of the time in Padua. We have good coffee. Please feel welcome to drop by. If you come to Menlo Park by train, please telephone us at 650-561-9820, and we'll pick you up at the railroad station. (Otherwise, you'll have a 3 km walk -- which is a considerable distance, even though it's a pleasant walk.) -- Cheers, There are only 10 types of people in this world -- Rick Moen those who understand binary arithmetic and those who don't. rick@linuxmafia.com From robxbob@LinuxWillBe.com Tue Dec 24 14:39:54 2002 Received: from hotdog.xxxstorage.com ([65.89.41.128]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18QxiM-0005MH-00 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 14:39:54 -0800 Received: from localhost (robxbob@localhost) by hotdog.xxxstorage.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id gBP0bUX29871 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 16:37:30 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 16:37:30 -0800 (PST) From: Dan X-Sender: robxbob@hotdog.xxxstorage.com Reply-To: Dan@LinuxWillBe.com To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] information about the meetings In-Reply-To: <20021224085608.GA21323@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 2266 Lines: 65 Hi conspirators, Since Rick has been kind enough to extend an invitation, I will drop by. Due to the holidays giving me more than my usual freetime, the meeting of the 28th will be the easiest for me to attend. It looks like it would be a good opportunity for me to learn about gnupg keys and maybe some Italian words. -Dan Dan@LinuxWillBe.com On Tue, 24 Dec 2002, Rick Moen wrote: > Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 00:56:08 -0800 > From: Rick Moen > To: Stefano Maffulli > Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com > Subject: Re: [conspire] information about the meetings > > Quoting Stefano Maffulli (maffulli@fsfeurope.org): > > > Hi guys > > Hi, Stefano! I've set the mailing list to allow all future posts from > your address to go through automatically. You might want to subscribe > to the list, if you want to receive copies of list traffic > (http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire). > > > I'm on a holyday trip in the bay area and was thinking of coming to > > visit you at your next meeting the 28th of december. I read on the > > bale site that it will not be held. Could you confirm me that sad > > news please? > > Officially, there's no meeting because of it being in the middle of the > holiday period. (Few people attend meetings that are scheduled between > Christmas and New Year's Day.) However, anyone who comes anyway will be > very welcome. > > And I'd be very glad to sign your gnupg key! > > By the way, you might know my friend David Welton, who's a free software > programmer and lives most of the time in Padua. > > We have good coffee. Please feel welcome to drop by. If you > come to Menlo Park by train, please telephone us at 650-561-9820, and > we'll pick you up at the railroad station. (Otherwise, you'll have a 3 > km walk -- which is a considerable distance, even though it's a pleasant > walk.) > > -- > Cheers, There are only 10 types of people in this world -- > Rick Moen those who understand binary arithmetic and those who don't. > rick@linuxmafia.com > > _______________________________________________ > conspire mailing list > conspire@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire > From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Dec 25 04:58:20 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18RB76-0003g8-00 for ; Wed, 25 Dec 2002 04:58:20 -0800 Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 04:58:20 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20021225125819.GA18794@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] ISOs of Red Hat "phoebe" beta Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 2592 Lines: 73 This past Monday, Red Hat Software released its first post-8.0 beta. Quoting from the announcment: "You know, Chandler, you being here is the best gift I could ask for Christmas." "Aww. Thanks Pheebs." "Ok, now where's my real present?" Red Hat, Inc. has a holiday gift for you - PHOEBE, a new beta release of Red Hat Linux. PHOEBE is 6 CDs of software (3 binary, 3 source), including, among other things: - the latest in bleeding-edge desktop and XFree86 technology - Mozilla 1.2.1, with Xft antialiased fonts - glibc-2.3.1, with the new Native POSIX Thread Library (NPTL), for performant and scalable threading PHOEBE is, of course, not intended for use on mission critical or other production systems. As always, we do not recommend the use of beta software on mission critical or production systems. In fact, we may laugh at those who try. Most packages are said to have been rebuilt between 8.0 and this beta; differences are said to be "large". No beta-level docs, this time. Further notes: o Window Maker has been removed completely from the distribution. Presumably, one can/should add it back using apt-rpm / Synaptic. Also, Matthew Miller says he's making an RPM specifically for the phoebe beta, and will post a notice to the phoebe-list mailing list. Or, you can just do "rpmbuild --rebuild WindowMaker-0.80.1-1.src.rpm" using the RH 8.0 version. But that version is very outdated and strange, and has an exploitable buffer overflow. Apparently, all you get is GNOME/metacity and KDE, in any event. o Sometimes, under some (so far unidentified) circumstances, starting Apache w/SSL enabled tends to induce a kernel panic. o On at least some laptops, _reporting_ for ACPI (battstat GNOME applet) doesn't work. o ext3 formatting is not offered as an option. (Trivial workaround exists.) o Wireless ethernet is said to be broken. o "init 0" no longer works to do a shutdown. (I'm sure they'll fix this.) o If you do an installation from loopback-mounted ISOs on the hard disk, X11 installation isn't available. In such cases, network device autodetection probably won't work, either. In any event, I have all three of the binary ISOs, and people are welcome to make copies on Saturday. Bring blank CDRs, or pay me $1 each to use mine. We can also test-install the thing, if people wish. -- Cheers, There are only 10 types of people in this world -- Rick Moen those who understand binary arithmetic and those who don't. rick@linuxmafia.com From maffulli@fsfeurope.org Thu Dec 26 10:50:30 2002 Received: from dialin5-57.stmarys-ca.edu ([149.137.240.57] helo=plusultraII.stef.intranet) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18Rd5R-0000SU-00; Thu, 26 Dec 2002 10:50:29 -0800 Received: by plusultraII.stef.intranet (Postfix, from userid 501) id 863BA12E62; Thu, 26 Dec 2002 12:41:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [conspire] information about the meetings From: Stefano Maffulli To: Rick Moen Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com In-Reply-To: <20021224085608.GA21323@linuxmafia.com> References: <1040696370.2036.11.camel@plusultraII> <20021224085608.GA21323@linuxmafia.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: Message-Id: <1040924479.2012.3.camel@plusultraII> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.0-3mdk Date: 26 Dec 2002 18:41:20 +0100 Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 672 Lines: 19 Il mar, 2002-12-24 alle 09:56, Rick Moen ha scritto: > Officially, there's no meeting because of it being in the middle of the > holiday period. (Few people attend meetings that are scheduled between > Christmas and New Year's Day.) However, anyone who comes anyway will be > very welcome. That's fantastic, I'll definetely drop by on saturday. I will come by car, with my fiance. I will be there around 4.30/5pm hoping not to get lost. > By the way, you might know my friend David Welton, who's a free software > programmer and lives most of the time in Padua. not personally, I will ask my friens at Prosa if they know him :) See you on saturday, regards stef From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Dec 26 17:54:04 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18RjhL-0004Um-00 for ; Thu, 26 Dec 2002 17:54:03 -0800 Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 17:54:03 -0800 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20021227015403.GK18794@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. Subject: [conspire] (forw) SCSI drives Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1297 Lines: 36 Aaron is a friend of mine and long-time Linux user, who lives in Palo Alto. If anyone needs an excellent deal on inexpensive 18 GB SCSI hard drives, contact him. ----- Forwarded message from Aaron Lehmann ----- Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 12:50:30 -0800 From: Aaron Lehmann To: rick@linuxmafia.com Subject: SCSI drives Rick, I've recently come into possession of more hard drives than I know what to do with. I have many extra Fujitsu MAA3182SC drives (18GB, 7200rpm). They're all guarenteed to work. The manufacturer claims a MTBF of 1 million hours (what the fuck?). See the specs at http://hdd.fujitsu.com/global/drive/maa3182/catalog.html. I'm asking around to see if any friends, especially SCSI bigots, are interested in taking a few of these off my hands and giving them good homes. I am selling them for $35 apiece, which seems to me to be a very good deal, at least compared to http://www.codemicro.com/store/prod_results.cfm?mode=5&srchparm=CAO1606-B962. These drives would be perfect for a workstation or small server, or they would make great RAID drives (I can throw in a PCI DAC960PL2 with 4MB of cache for $40). Please let me know if you or anyone you know might be interested. Thanks, Aaron Lehmann ----- End forwarded message ----- From jose_sanchez79@yahoo.com Fri Dec 27 11:12:47 2002 Received: from web20108.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.226.45]) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18RzuW-0005ok-00 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 2002 11:12:45 -0800 Message-ID: <20021227191148.34145.qmail@web20108.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [12.7.80.110] by web20108.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 27 Dec 2002 11:11:48 PST Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 11:11:48 -0800 (PST) From: Jose Sanchez To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [conspire] Slashdotted... Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 336 Lines: 13 I have to say it was a good lunch time read: http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/12/26/1040511127721.html Also, your cat uses vi too :0) I hope I can make it to Cabal tomorrow. -Jose __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From nkj@namodn.com Fri Dec 27 11:44:42 2002 Received: from namodn.com ([209.0.100.49] helo=claire.namodn.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18S0PR-0004DL-00 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 2002 11:44:41 -0800 Received: from nkj by claire.namodn.com with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 18S0OW-0005Jr-00; Fri, 27 Dec 2002 11:43:44 -0800 Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 11:43:44 -0800 From: Nick Jennings To: Jose Sanchez Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Slashdotted... Message-ID: <20021227114344.B23554@namodn.com> References: <20021227191148.34145.qmail@web20108.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20021227191148.34145.qmail@web20108.mail.yahoo.com>; from jose_sanchez79@yahoo.com on Fri, Dec 27, 2002 at 11:11:48AM -0800 Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 250 Lines: 10 On Fri, Dec 27, 2002 at 11:11:48AM -0800, Jose Sanchez wrote: > > Also, your cat uses vi too :0) He also mentioned he was (Just Kidding), which is only self-evident, since I'm more than sure emacs is kitties editor of choice. - Nick Jennings From deirdre@deirdre.net Fri Dec 27 16:22:03 2002 Received: from emperor ([198.144.195.190] helo=emperor.deirdre.org ident=root) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18S4jq-0006Yt-00 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 2002 16:22:02 -0800 Received: from deirdre.net (airport.deirdre.org [198.144.195.188]) by emperor.deirdre.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Debian-6) with ESMTP id gBS0LtWT010987; Fri, 27 Dec 2002 16:21:55 -0800 Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 16:21:09 -0800 Subject: Re: [conspire] Slashdotted... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com To: Nick Jennings From: Deirdre Saoirse Moen In-Reply-To: <20021227114344.B23554@namodn.com> Message-Id: <436B1818-19FA-11D7-B612-000393B986EE@deirdre.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 338 Lines: 12 On Friday, December 27, 2002, at 11:43 AM, Nick Jennings wrote: > On Fri, Dec 27, 2002 at 11:11:48AM -0800, Jose Sanchez wrote: >> >> Also, your cat uses vi too :0) > > He also mentioned he was (Just Kidding), which is only self-evident, > since I'm more than sure emacs is kitties editor of choice. Nah, he's more a sed kinda guy. From robxbob@LinuxWillBe.com Sun Dec 29 13:22:59 2002 Received: from hotdog.xxxstorage.com ([65.89.41.128]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18Skte-0005Zq-00 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 13:22:59 -0800 Received: from localhost (robxbob@localhost) by hotdog.xxxstorage.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id gBTNJ0828438 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 15:19:00 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 15:19:00 -0800 (PST) From: Dan X-Sender: robxbob@hotdog.xxxstorage.com Reply-To: Dan@LinuxWillBe.com To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [conspire] (forw) Thanks for the help with my laptops (fwd) Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1386 Lines: 60 Conspirators, I'm looking for a store which would be a good source of pcmcia devices (modems, networkcards, etc) for some older linux laptops I have: ibm thinkpad 600e acer 501dx Rick mentioned a place on Lawrence I believe but I forgot to write down the name. Something like... accent computers? action computers? -Dan ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 12:58:41 -0800 From: Rick Moen To: Dan@linuxwillbe.com Subject: (forw) Thanks for the help with my laptops Dan, I'll be glad to answer all of that, but would you mind asking the questions on conspire@linuxmafia.com? That way, other people can benefit. Thanks! Your post is included below, for your convenience in reposting. ----- Forwarded message from Dan ----- Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 14:50:36 -0800 (PST) From: Dan Reply-To: Dan@LinuxWillBe.com To: Rick Moen Subject: Thanks for the help with my laptops Rick, thanks for taking the time to help me with my 2 linux laptops last night. It was an excellent learning experience. What was the name of the store you mentioned (on Lawrence I believe?) which may be a good source for pcmcia cards? Was it action compters? accent computers? active computers? aspect computers? ?? -Dan Dan@LinuxWillBe.com ----- End forwarded message ----- From star@starshine.org Sun Dec 29 13:47:17 2002 Received: from antares.starshine.org ([216.240.40.177] helo=antares.in.starshine.org ident=postfix) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18SlHB-0003yM-00 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 13:47:17 -0800 Received: from gemini.starshine.org (gemini.starshine.org [216.240.40.169]) by antares.in.starshine.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D4753977; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 09:56:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by gemini.starshine.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 8B3141413D; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 13:38:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 13:38:13 -0800 To: Dan@LinuxWillBe.com Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] (forw) Thanks for the help with my laptops (fwd) Message-ID: <20021229213813.GA14910@starshine.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: star@starshine.org (Heather Stern) Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1993 Lines: 53 On Sun, Dec 29, 2002 at 03:19:00PM -0800, Dan wrote: > Conspirators, > > I'm looking for a store which would be a good source of pcmcia > devices (modems, networkcards, etc) for some older linux laptops > I have: > > ibm thinkpad 600e > acer 501dx The goodies are not so much about whether the laptops are "older" as whether they are so old that you need a 16 bit card (pcmcia, pc card) as opposed to a 32 bit card (pcmcia, cardbus). > Rick mentioned a place on Lawrence I believe but I forgot to write down > the name. > > Something like... > accent computers? > action computers? > > -Dan "Accent Technologies" is where SVLUG holds installfests. No relation. Action Computers. Driving on Lawrence Spwy, North from Arques (the street that Sunnyvale Fry's is currently on) or North from Central Xpwy (just in case Sunnyvale isn't your normal haunts and you had no idea where its Fry's was for some strange reason)... pay attention to the right hand side of the street, in fact, be in the right lane. You should see Action, Subway, and Dot Com Depot (Disk Drive Depot, Corporate Systems Corp, whatever the sign says these days) in the same sector, and turn right into the "little side street" which is really a meta-driveway. If you miss that one you can turn in past the Compuware and drive along the back side of the parking lots for the next sector. Yeah, the McDonald's is connected to that same lot too, in yet another section. If you're coming from the 101, then you'll head south, and you'll have to either left turn at Oakmead and enter the lot near Coco's and McDonalds, or go all the way to Arques and make a U-turn. Even if it wasn't a divided highway and/or you owned an SUV to have fun with, there's too much traffic to make it across, on the average. . | . Heather Stern | star@starshine.org --->*<--- Starshine Technical Services - * - consulting@starshine.org ' | ` Sysadmin Support and Training | (800) 938-4078 From howard@scsurplus.com Sun Dec 29 14:02:21 2002 Received: from scsurplus.com ([130.94.191.13]) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18SlVj-0006K6-00 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 14:02:20 -0800 Received: (qmail 15543 invoked by uid 16141); 29 Dec 2002 22:01:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scsurplus.com) ([63.207.22.50]) (envelope-sender ) by 130.94.191.13 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 29 Dec 2002 22:01:23 -0000 Message-ID: <3E0F7529.CAEF425@scsurplus.com> Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 14:20:25 -0800 From: Howard Susman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [conspire] Redhat Stuff Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 908 Lines: 22 I found the replacement for Xconfigurator on Redhat. It is called: redhat-config-xfree86. I checked /usr/bin/ for redhat-config programs and found: redhat-config-bind redhat-config-printer redhat-config-date redhat-config-printer-gui redhat-config-httpd redhat-config-printer-tui redhat-config-keyboard redhat-config-proc redhat-config-language redhat-config-rootpassword redhat-config-mouse redhat-config-securitylevel redhat-config-network redhat-config-services redhat-config-network-cmd redhat-config-soundcard redhat-config-network-druid redhat-config-time redhat-config-nfs redhat-config-users redhat-config-packages redhat-config-xfree86 I hope this information is of some use to people doing Redhat 8.0 or later installs. Howard From robxbob@LinuxWillBe.com Sun Dec 29 14:29:32 2002 Received: from hotdog.xxxstorage.com ([65.89.41.128]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18Slw3-0004jP-00 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 14:29:31 -0800 Received: from localhost (robxbob@localhost) by hotdog.xxxstorage.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id gBU0PZX05915 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 16:25:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 16:25:35 -0800 (PST) From: Dan X-Sender: robxbob@hotdog.xxxstorage.com Reply-To: Dan@LinuxWillBe.com To: conspire@linuxmafia.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [conspire] pcmcia 16 bit modems Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 657 Lines: 21 Conspirators, Now that I have the name/location of Action Computers nailed down... I'm looking for suggestions on a good pcmcia modem to buy for my linux laptops. I'm convinced I need a pcmcia 16 bit pc-card modem as opposed to a 32 bit pcmcia device since my current (working) network cards have "pc-card 16" written on them. Is a pcmcia 16 bit pc-card modem enough of a generic device that I may be free to pick one from a wide variey of choices? If it turns out that I need to try out 10 different pcmcia modems before I find one which works, I'd prefer to just buy a tiny external hayes compatible modem and connect it to my serial port. -Dan From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Dec 29 14:31:42 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18SlyA-0004k6-00 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 14:31:42 -0800 Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 14:31:42 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Redhat Stuff Message-ID: <20021229223141.GJ30129@linuxmafia.com> References: <3E0F7529.CAEF425@scsurplus.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3E0F7529.CAEF425@scsurplus.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1424 Lines: 31 Quoting Howard Susman (howard@scsurplus.com): > I found the replacement for Xconfigurator on Redhat. It is called: > redhat-config-xfree86. > > I checked /usr/bin/ for redhat-config programs and found: > redhat-config-bind redhat-config-printer > redhat-config-date redhat-config-printer-gui > redhat-config-httpd redhat-config-printer-tui > redhat-config-keyboard redhat-config-proc > redhat-config-language redhat-config-rootpassword > redhat-config-mouse redhat-config-securitylevel > redhat-config-network redhat-config-services > redhat-config-network-cmd redhat-config-soundcard > redhat-config-network-druid redhat-config-time > redhat-config-nfs redhat-config-users > redhat-config-packages redhat-config-xfree86 Howard, this is really cool stuff. They've been busy. I'm going to have to install the phoebe beta on a spare box, to play with it. It's probably all Python code. They've been cranking out lots of neat little Python-based utilities: 8.0, for example, has a console version of their printconf utility, absence of which used to drive me crazy on RH servers. (Setting up print support on them without X11 was messy.) -- Cheers, The shortest distance between two puns is a straightline. Rick Moen rick@linuxmafia.com From star@starshine.org Sun Dec 29 23:49:37 2002 Received: from antares.starshine.org ([216.240.40.177] helo=antares.in.starshine.org ident=postfix) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18Sug4-0006E8-00 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 23:49:37 -0800 Received: from gemini.starshine.org (gemini.starshine.org [216.240.40.169]) by antares.in.starshine.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A9FF3977; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 19:58:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by gemini.starshine.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 30AA41413D; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 23:40:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 23:40:27 -0800 To: Dan@LinuxWillBe.com Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] pcmcia 16 bit modems Message-ID: <20021230074027.GA15305@starshine.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: star@starshine.org (Heather Stern) Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 2415 Lines: 58 On Sun, Dec 29, 2002 at 04:25:35PM -0800, Dan wrote: > Conspirators, > > Now that I have the name/location of Action Computers nailed down... > > I'm looking for suggestions on a good pcmcia modem to buy for my > linux laptops. As a generic point, look for boxes that mention linux on them, they're starting to do that :) As a more specific point go look at linmodems.org and make sure you get one that isn't a winmodem under the hood. Once upon an age ago you could laugh at the idea that an external modem or a pcmcia modem would require software help. It just ain't so anymore. There's even USB softmodems. bleeeech! > I'm convinced I need a pcmcia 16 bit pc-card modem as opposed to > a 32 bit pcmcia device since my current (working) network cards have > "pc-card 16" written on them. It can't really hurt that much; your modem traffic will be limited to serial speeds anyway, no matter which size bus you have, and a 16 bit card would work in anything. They didn't make pcmcia in an 8 bit edition. At least not as far as I ever encountered. > Is a pcmcia 16 bit pc-card modem enough of a generic device that > I may be free to pick one from a wide variey of choices? As above, don't get a softmodem. You should be able to see the package readme for supported cards in your card services. Under debian, this would be in /usr/share/doc/pcmcia-cs/ ... every distro keeps these in a slightly dif't place ... if you're going to build your own card services anyway then the supported list at pcmcia-cs.sourceforge.net would be sufficient. Sadly, these entries aren't marked with when they were added. > If it turns out that I need to try out 10 different pcmcia modems > before I find one which works, I'd prefer to just buy a tiny external > hayes compatible modem and connect it to my serial port. I repeat the watning against finding yourself stuck with a softmodem. If the box says "HCF" or "HSP" on it it probably is one; I forget what the F is, but that's Host Controlled ___ and Host Signal Processing respectively. > -Dan I had an old Megahertz I liked, but it's too slow for the modern era. If you really get stuck and find that even a 14.4 would do, lemme know. . | . Heather Stern | star@starshine.org --->*<--- Starshine Technical Services - * - consulting@starshine.org ' | ` Sysadmin Support and Training | (800) 938-4078 From mhigashi@myrddin.imat.com Mon Dec 30 20:07:30 2002 Received: from adsl-207-214-84-142.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net ([207.214.84.142] helo=myrddin.imat.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18TDgg-0005Ob-00 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 20:07:30 -0800 Received: (from mhigashi@localhost) by myrddin.imat.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gBV45AG07536 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 20:05:10 -0800 Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 20:05:10 -0800 From: Mike Higashi To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Slashdotted... Message-ID: <20021231040510.GA7493@myrddin.imat.com> References: <20021227191148.34145.qmail@web20108.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021227191148.34145.qmail@web20108.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 604 Lines: 14 On Fri, Dec 27, 2002 at 11:11:48AM -0800, Jose Sanchez wrote: > I have to say it was a good lunch time read: > http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/12/26/1040511127721.html Great article. One teensy-weeny nit to pick: the Refund Day after-party was really paid partly by Jim Dennis and mostly by me. This is because Jim never gave me a receipt to turn in to the official sponsor -- he wanted to take a good chunk of the excess beer he bought to one of the Savitsky's parties -- and I never got around to gathering my own to turn in for myself. I wish I had that money now. Oh, well. Mike Higashi From amcgee@sdf.lonestar.org Thu Jan 02 11:29:12 2003 Received: from iceland.freeshell.org ([207.202.214.138] helo=sdf.lonestar.org ident=root) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18UB1k-0001Zb-00 for ; Thu, 02 Jan 2003 11:29:12 -0800 Received: (from amcgee@localhost) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.11.6+3.4W/8.11.6) id h02JRuu04884; Thu, 2 Jan 2003 19:27:56 GMT Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 19:27:56 +0000 (UTC) From: Art McGee To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [conspire] Help Fix Computers for Indymedia Argentina in Berkeley Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 3784 Lines: 105 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 10:06:59 -0800 (PST) From: Evan Henshaw-Plath Subject: Help Fix Computers for Indymedia Argentina in Berkeley Help build computers for Indymedia Argentina. We are working on putting together a shipment of a couple hundred computers to support their work. This is a follow-up to a shipment of 235 computers which we sent to the Ecuador Indymedia Center in November. The Argentina indymedia center is the nexus of communication for the popular movement against neo-liberalism and the IMF. Their website gets over 25,000 page views a day. Yet they only have two computers. This shipment will help indymedia centers in Buenos Aires and Rosario, Argentina as well as other near by IMC's in Chile, Southern Brazil, Bolivia, and Uruguay. They will also be used to support other social movement groups who are on the forefront of the struggle for a better world. We hope to change the situation. We'll be refurbishing donated used computers for the next two weeks. We need your help. No technical knowledge necessary. We an teach you everything you need to know. But if you happen to be a Linux geek we definitely have things to do for you too. We are installing Spanish language Debian GNU/Linux on the boxes. We will be working ACCRC's NEW warehouse in Berkeley. We will be here 24 hours a day from now through the 12th of January. The weekends of the 4th & 5th, and 11th & 12th we will be doing big install fests. Please stop by for an hour or an evening to help out. This is a huge job and we need more volunteers. Want to know more? Read the Salon article which was written about our first shipment to indymedia Ecuador: http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2002/09/23/antiglobal_geeks/ Project website: http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Global/SendingComputers If you have any questions or planning on coming to help out, please either email imc-tech-solidarity@indymedia.org, come on to irc.indymedia.org in the #boxes channel, or give us a call. (Our phone number through the 5th is 541-941-8903, after the 5th we'll have another number.) We are working out of the new ACCRC warehouse in Berkeley. NOTE: THIS IS NOT WHERE WE WORKED ON THE ECUADOR SHIPMENT. 1501 Eastshore Hwy Berkeley, CA 94710-1702 Map: http://tinyurl.com/3zvy DIRECTIONS: To get to the warehouse via public transportation you can either walk from North Berkeley bart or take the bus and walk. If you need it, you can call us from bart and we'll and drive over to pick you up. It's on the corner of Eastshore Hwy and Jones St. Jones half way between Gilman & University. To drive just get off at either of those two exits and take Eastshore to Jones St. BART: Walk from the North Berkeley BART station which is 1.6 miles to the warehouse: Directions from North Berkeley Bart: tinyurl.com/3zww BUS: Another option is to take BART to El Cerrito Plaza where you can get on AC Transit Bus 72 to San Pablo & Gilman. From there it is a short walk to the warehouse. Directions for Bus: tinyurl.com/3zx1 More Information: ACCRC is Alameda County Computer Resource Center, http://www.accrc.org, who are providing a lot of support for this project in terms of the computers and warehouse space. FreeGeek, http://www.freeegeek.org, is a similar group to ACCRC where indymedia Portland people are preparing 80 computers for the shipment to Argentina. They are also looking for help on this project. -end- Art McGee Communications & Technology Consultant amcgee@freeshell.org (510) 967-9381 Circuit Riders International NPO/NGO Media & Technology Calendar APC ActionApps Content Management System From robxbob@LinuxWillBe.com Sun Jan 05 11:56:39 2003 Received: from nat273.national-net.com ([66.115.160.30]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18VGsu-0003SG-00 for ; Sun, 05 Jan 2003 11:56:37 -0800 Received: from nat270.national-net.com (nat270.national-net.com [66.115.160.27]) by nat273.national-net.com (8.10.1/8.10.0) with ESMTP id h05KM7k01734 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 12:22:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (robxbob@localhost) by nat270.national-net.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id h05LrK316358 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 13:53:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 13:53:20 -0800 (PST) From: Dan X-Sender: robxbob@nat270.national-net.com Reply-To: Dan@LinuxWillBe.com To: conspire@linuxmafia.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [conspire] my old acer laptop Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 328 Lines: 18 Conspirators, while cleaning out my closet, I found an old acer laptop running windows 95. It only has a floppy drive. Where might I find a "tiny" linux distribution which would fit on 1,2,3 or 4 floppies? My plan is to make this my "meeting laptop" which I'd use to take notes. It does not need to run X, just vi. -Dan From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Jan 05 12:30:53 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18VHQ5-00028p-00 for ; Sun, 05 Jan 2003 12:30:53 -0800 Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 12:30:53 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] my old acer laptop Message-ID: <20030105203053.GJ30129@linuxmafia.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 2659 Lines: 66 Quoting Dan (robxbob@LinuxWillBe.com): > Conspirators, > > while cleaning out my closet, > I found an old acer laptop running windows 95. > > It only has a floppy drive. > > Where might I find a "tiny" linux distribution > which would fit on 1,2,3 or 4 floppies? Well, you could start here: http://dilbert.physast.uga.edu/~andy/minilinux.html http://dmoz.org/Computers/Software/Operating_Systems/Linux/Distributions/Tiny/ http://home.hccnet.nl/s.a.v.dijk/mini.html http://www.linuxlinks.com/Distributions/Mini_Distributions/ http://links.hellug.gr/linuxl27.html http://www.eng.cse.dmu.ac.uk/~hgs/small_systems/ http://www.geekhavoc.com/floppy.html http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Laptop-HOWTO-18.html http://www.northernjourney.com/opensource/linside/li008.html You didn't mention how much disk space it has, or how much RAM. Probably, it has at least 8 MB, and I would hope at least 16 MB. (Less than that is pretty painful with Win9x.) If you're _determined_ to get Linux going on a machine as small as 2 MB of RAM and a 40 MB hard drive, see this page: http://www.superant.com/smalllinux/ Given enough hard disk space (e.g., 300 MB or so), you can put a fairly liveable Slackware installation on such a laptop, working solely from floppy disks. Unless they've... um..., slacked off, they still make the whole thing available on floppy images. For that matter, you can get the Debian Base System via something like 13 floppies. And there are some possibilities you might not have thought of, yet: PLIP is a method of getting IP (and thus, NFS, http, ftp, etc.) running over parallel-port "laplink" cables. http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/mini/PLIP.html With the aid of some other existing Linux machine, you can boot a Linux installation floppy, get PLIP going, and then install just about any Linux distribution from the other machine (over the PLIP channel). And then, things are even easier if the Acer just happens to also have a PCMCIA slot, even if you don't (yet) have an ethernet card for it, because you can certainly borrow one for the duration of the installation effort. > It does not need to run X, just vi. If the laptop has at least _32 MB_, then I'd say getting X11 going is very worthwhile. Less than that, maybe, but you won't get tremendous mileage out of it. Less than 16 MB, don't bother. By the way, you might be able to justify adding RAM to such a machine, even at this late date. Call up SA Technology, http://satech.com/ , and ask them how much. -- Cheers, "My file system's got no nodes!" Rick Moen "How does it shell?" rick@linuxmafia.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Jan 05 13:39:24 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18VIUN-0001oG-00 for ; Sun, 05 Jan 2003 13:39:23 -0800 Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 13:39:23 -0800 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20030105213923.GK30129@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: [conspire] Re: pcmcia 16 bit modems Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 7443 Lines: 176 Just catching up on old list-mail. Apologies for breaking threading, but I no longer have Dan's original in my mailbox, and so have to quote from the Web archive. Quoting Dan (robxbob@LinuxWillBe.com): > I'm looking for suggestions on a good pcmcia modem to buy for my > linux laptops. > > I'm convinced I need a pcmcia 16 bit pc-card modem as opposed to > a 32 bit pcmcia device since my current (working) network cards have > "pc-card 16" written on them. You know, I didn't address the question when you first posted it, because I wasn't sure about this, but: My recollection is that the 32-bit PCMCIA "CardBus" stuff is pretty much fully backwards compatible. That is, I'll bet that a card described as 32-bit/CardBus will work OK in any PCMCIA socket -- and all you have to do is use drivers whose names end in "cs" for Card Services, instead of "cb" for CardBus. But I don't know this for certain. > Is a pcmcia 16 bit pc-card modem enough of a generic device that > I may be free to pick one from a wide variey of choices? The 3Com / US Robotics / Megahertz cards _tend_ to be safe choices, though I know those mainly from combo (ethernet/modem) cards. But there's the winmodem plague in their product line, as in many others. (The cheaper the card, the more likely it is to be a winmodem, because winmodems are all about cutting costs by omitting circuitry.) You could do a lot worse than to just print out the PCMCIA section of Rob Clark's "winmodem" database, and take it with you to stores: http://www.idir.net/~gromitkc/pcmcia_list.html In Linux, cards get detected by the /sbin/cardmgr daemon (part of David Hinds's PCMCIA Card Services aka PCMCIA-CS package). cardmgr queries the card for its identity string or manufacturer ID ("manfid"), and then compares that string or manfid against known entries in the SUPPORTED.CARDS database, here: /etc/pcmcia/config (Don't be scared by the word "database": It's a plain old flat text file.) I believe you can actually update your /etc/pcmcia/config from updates David posts here: http://pcmcia-cs.sourceforge.net/ftp/SUPPORTED.CARDS When you insert a card and cardmgr detects the insertion event, you'll (always) hear a beep, to acknowledge that. A second or two later, depending on whether cardmgr finds a match for the card's ID string or manfid in /etc/pcmcia/config, you'll either hear another of the same beep (match found), or a lower-pitched beep (no match). If a match has been found, then cardmgr will initiate an "insmod" (insertion of a driver module into the running kernel) of the PCMCIA driver indicated as appropriate for that card. Here's an example /etc/pcmcia/config entry that looks for ID strings: card "Megahertz XJ2288 V.34 Fax Modem" version "MEGAHERTZ", "XJ2288", "V.34 PCMCIA MODEM" bind "serial_cs" ...and an equivalent one that looks for manfids: card "Megahertz XJ2288 V.34 Fax Modem" manfid 0x0101, 0x1234 bind "serial_cs" If a match is _not_ found, then cardmgr won't attempt anything further until you give it more to go on. Such as one of the two entries above, which say "Look out for these strings (or these manfids). If you see them, then insmod the serial_cs driver. No special options." Essentially, somebody owned an early sample of one of those cards, did "cardmgr ident" at the Linux command prompt to query it manually for its ID strings and manfids, and then sent David e-mail saying "Hey, I have this new Megahertz XJ2288 PCMCIA modem that your Card Services package doesn't support yet. Here are its 'cardmgr ident' return values." Next release, David would include a new entry for that card in /etc/pcmcia/config . Meanwhile, the card's owner probably hand-edited the local-additions file, /etc/pcmcia/config.opts , to contain an entry like one of the above. I had to do exactly that, for a couple of my old cards. Here's stuff I added to my /etc/pcmcia/config.opts: card "Cisco 350" manfid 0x015f, 0x000a bind "airo_cs" card "Intel EtherExpress PRO/100 LAN/Modem PC Card Adapter" version "Intel", "EtherExpress(TM) PRO/100 LAN/Modem PC Card Adapter", "PRO/10 0 M16B", "1.00" bind "xirc2ps_cs" to 0 In the case of the Intel card, I didn't care at that time whether Linux could use the modem half of that card, just the ethernet half, so I didn't bother to tell it to bind serial_cs to card function #1, just the xirc2ps_cs driver to function #0. (I guessed how that worked by looking at other entries for Intel cards, and experimenting.) However, with reasonable luck, you won't have to do any of that. Hmm, David's SUPPORTED.CARDS file has words of wisdom on the modem-selection question: ------ Modem and serial cards: [ Virtually all modem cards, simple serial port cards, and digital cellular modems should work. The only exceptions are so-called "WinModems" that require special drivers. ISDN modems that emulate a standard UART are also supported. Some Winmodem drivers do exist (i.e., the ltmodem driver for Lucent chipsets). For more information about WinModems, drivers, etc, see either http://www.o2.net/~gromitkc/winmodem.html, http://www.linmodems.org, or http://linmodems.technion.ac.il ] [serial_cs driver] [x86,axp,ppc,smp] Advantech COMpad-32/85 dual port, COMpad-32/85B-4 quad port Anycom ECO II dual serial Argosy dual serial Black Box I114A RS-422/485 Brain Boxes 2-Port RS-232 Brain Boxes BL-500 Bluetooth Adapter National Instruments PCMCIA-232, PCMCIA-232/2, PCMCIA-232/4 National Instruments PCMCIA-485, PCMCIA-485/2 Omega Engineering QSP-100 Quatech, IOTech dual RS-232 cards Quatech quad RS-232 card, dual and quad RS-422 cards Socket Communications dual RS-232 card Trimble Mobile GPS [pcmcia-cs driver: serial_cb] [x86] [2.4+ kernel driver: serial] Xircom RBM56G, CBM56G [ The following cards are WinModems and are NOT supported by the serial drivers included in the PCMCIA package ] 3Com/Megahertz 3CXM356/3CCM356, 3CXM656/3CCM656 3Com/Megahertz XJ/CC2560, 3013, 3014 3Com/USRobotics 3014A, 3056, 3057 Abocom FM560CB ActionTec CM560LH Billionton 56K HSP Com1 Platinum MC221 Discovery 56K Compaq 192 IBM 10L7393, 10L7394 Lucent LT Winmodem Motorola Montana New Media WinSurfer Paradise CW56K HSP Xircom R2BM56W, R2BM56WB ------ > If it turns out that I need to try out 10 different pcmcia modems > before I find one which works, I'd prefer to just buy a tiny external > hayes compatible modem and connect it to my serial port. Suggestion: Bring your (Linux-installed) laptop with you to the store. If it's Action Computer, they'll be willing to let you plug cards into your laptop's PCMCIA socket, to see if you can hear that cheery double beep that means you've won without hassle. Just for completeness's sake, I should mention that, just because cardmgr finds a match for the card's ID strings or manfids, and just because it's insmod'ed a driver that you or David Hinds considers appropriate, doesn't absolutely guarantee that it'll actually work. The manufacturer could have done something really perverse like change to a completely different -- or subtlely different -- chipset without changing the ID string / manfids. Or the card could ID properly but be defective. But that's very unlikely to happen with something as basic as a modem card. -- Cheers, Rick Moen This space for rant. rick@linuxmafia.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Jan 05 13:43:59 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18VIYp-0004AZ-00 for ; Sun, 05 Jan 2003 13:43:59 -0800 Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 13:43:58 -0800 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: pcmcia 16 bit modems Message-ID: <20030105214358.GL30129@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030105213923.GK30129@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030105213923.GK30129@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 519 Lines: 14 Quoting myself: > I believe you can actually update your /etc/pcmcia/config from updates > David posts here: http://pcmcia-cs.sourceforge.net/ftp/SUPPORTED.CARDS I meant to delete that before posting. The SUPPORTED.CARDS file is just an informational file, and doesn't have the ID string / manfids / insmod information in it. Useful, though. -- Cheers, "My file system's got no nodes!" Rick Moen "How does it shell?" rick@linuxmafia.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Jan 05 15:12:05 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18VJw4-0006Hj-00 for ; Sun, 05 Jan 2003 15:12:04 -0800 Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 15:12:04 -0800 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20030105231204.GM30129@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030105203053.GJ30129@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030105213923.GK30129@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. Subject: [conspire] Re: pcmcia 16 bit modems Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 2305 Lines: 43 Quoting myself again, to post another afterthought: > Just for completeness's sake, I should mention that, just because > cardmgr finds a match for the card's ID strings or manfids, and just > because it's insmod'ed a driver that you or David Hinds considers > appropriate, doesn't absolutely guarantee that it'll actually work. > The manufacturer could have done something really perverse like change > to a completely different -- or subtlely different -- chipset without > changing the ID string / manfids. Or the card could ID properly but be > defective. Or you could have the wrong dongle (external piece of flexible plastic that serves as an intermediary between the card and connecting cables to elsewhere). Once, the ethernet dongle for my aforementioned Intel EtherExpress/PRO combo card broke. Since I was due to attend a Robert Austin Computer Show thereafter, I brought it along and inquired at one of the vendor tables. The guy said he had what I needed, handed me a 3Com dongle, and charged me some tiny pittance for it. It seemed to fit the card. I didn't have a laptop with me to test it on, though. I took it home. Kept trying known-good network configurations -- no go. No link-status LED turning green, nada. Cross-checked the OS and socket using a different card: Those proved OK. Tried the 3Com dongle with a 3Com card: It worked there. So, finally I concluded that the confident-sounding vendor didn't know fsck-all about the hardware he was selling. My $3 (or whatever) wasn't entirely wasted, though, because I later bought a 3Com 3C575 PCMCIA ethernet card at Action Computer (something like $12?), and now I have a spare dongle for it. The other lesson I learned is that spare dongles are cheap and ubiquitous for some cards but not others. Ask politely about this at the Action Computer front desk, and you'll see. And that's why I bought the 3Com card. (It's not a question of _if_ you'll break or lose a dongle, it's when. And the manufacturers tend to really gouge you on replacements. Because they can.) -- Cheers, I once successfully declined a departmental retreat, Rick Moen saying that on that day I planned instead to advance. rick@linuxmafia.com -- Alan J. Rosenthal, in the Monastery From star@starshine.org Sun Jan 05 16:55:22 2003 Received: from antares.starshine.org ([216.240.40.177] helo=antares.in.starshine.org ident=postfix) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18VLY2-00071E-00 for ; Sun, 05 Jan 2003 16:55:22 -0800 Received: from gemini.starshine.org (gemini.starshine.org [216.240.40.169]) by antares.in.starshine.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66BC7397D; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 13:03:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by gemini.starshine.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 177C21413D; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 16:44:34 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 16:44:34 -0800 To: Dan@LinuxWillBe.com Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] my old acer laptop Message-ID: <20030106004434.GB32466@starshine.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: star@starshine.org (Heather Stern) Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1288 Lines: 42 On Sun, Jan 05, 2003 at 01:53:20PM -0800, Dan wrote: > Conspirators, > > while cleaning out my closet, > I found an old acer laptop running windows 95. > > It only has a floppy drive. > > Where might I find a "tiny" linux distribution > which would fit on 1,2,3 or 4 floppies? Well, at only 2 or 3 a debian setup can get onto the net (e.g. via pcmcia network) - if you don't mind a slightly large stack it can install Base completely from floppy. 'Course I usually brazenly take the drive out, mount it elsewhere, fill 'er up. DOesn't mean you might not still be looking for a tight fit - 328 MB, 512 MB anyone ? :) But a decent little debian will fit in around 150, GUI not that much more if you avoid the "desktop environment" lure. > My plan is to make this my "meeting laptop" which > I'd use to take notes. > > It does not need to run X, just vi. > > -Dan Heh, no problem! p.s. Debian base comes with this abomination called ae. Run away at full speed. Install midnight commander and use mcedit, plus get a nice ftp client and tarball viewer all in one... . | . Heather Stern | star@starshine.org --->*<--- Starshine Technical Services - * - consulting@starshine.org ' | ` Sysadmin Support and Training | (800) 938-4078 From star@starshine.org Sun Jan 05 16:57:24 2003 Received: from antares.starshine.org ([216.240.40.177] helo=antares.in.starshine.org ident=postfix) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18VLZz-00071q-00; Sun, 05 Jan 2003 16:57:23 -0800 Received: from gemini.starshine.org (gemini.starshine.org [216.240.40.169]) by antares.in.starshine.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 727AE3A53; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 13:06:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by gemini.starshine.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9C28C1413D; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 16:46:37 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 16:46:37 -0800 To: Rick Moen Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] my old acer laptop Message-ID: <20030106004637.GC32466@starshine.org> References: <20030105203053.GJ30129@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030105203053.GJ30129@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: star@starshine.org (Heather Stern) Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 3403 Lines: 82 Oh yeah and I forgot to mention that Tom's Rtbt has editors in it. 1 floppy, no need to install anything. Wow, that's a nice list of tidbits. Maybe Dan will review which ones he tries? . | . Heather Stern | star@starshine.org --->*<--- Starshine Technical Services - * - consulting@starshine.org ' | ` Sysadmin Support and Training | (800) 938-4078 On Sun, Jan 05, 2003 at 12:30:53PM -0800, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Dan (robxbob@LinuxWillBe.com): > > > Conspirators, > > > > while cleaning out my closet, > > I found an old acer laptop running windows 95. > > > > It only has a floppy drive. > > > > Where might I find a "tiny" linux distribution > > which would fit on 1,2,3 or 4 floppies? > > Well, you could start here: > http://dilbert.physast.uga.edu/~andy/minilinux.html > http://dmoz.org/Computers/Software/Operating_Systems/Linux/Distributions/Tiny/ > http://home.hccnet.nl/s.a.v.dijk/mini.html > http://www.linuxlinks.com/Distributions/Mini_Distributions/ > http://links.hellug.gr/linuxl27.html > http://www.eng.cse.dmu.ac.uk/~hgs/small_systems/ > http://www.geekhavoc.com/floppy.html > http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Laptop-HOWTO-18.html > http://www.northernjourney.com/opensource/linside/li008.html > > You didn't mention how much disk space it has, or how much RAM. > Probably, it has at least 8 MB, and I would hope at least 16 MB. (Less > than that is pretty painful with Win9x.) > > If you're _determined_ to get Linux going on a machine as small as 2 MB > of RAM and a 40 MB hard drive, see this page: > http://www.superant.com/smalllinux/ > > Given enough hard disk space (e.g., 300 MB or so), you can put a fairly > liveable Slackware installation on such a laptop, working solely from > floppy disks. Unless they've... um..., slacked off, they still make the > whole thing available on floppy images. For that matter, you can get > the Debian Base System via something like 13 floppies. > > And there are some possibilities you might not have thought of, yet: > PLIP is a method of getting IP (and thus, NFS, http, ftp, etc.) running > over parallel-port "laplink" cables. > http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/mini/PLIP.html > > With the aid of some other existing Linux machine, you can boot a Linux > installation floppy, get PLIP going, and then install just about any > Linux distribution from the other machine (over the PLIP channel). > > And then, things are even easier if the Acer just happens to also have a > PCMCIA slot, even if you don't (yet) have an ethernet card for it, > because you can certainly borrow one for the duration of the > installation effort. > > > It does not need to run X, just vi. > > If the laptop has at least _32 MB_, then I'd say getting X11 going is > very worthwhile. Less than that, maybe, but you won't get tremendous > mileage out of it. Less than 16 MB, don't bother. > > By the way, you might be able to justify adding RAM to such a machine, > even at this late date. Call up SA Technology, http://satech.com/ , > and ask them how much. > > -- > Cheers, "My file system's got no nodes!" > Rick Moen "How does it shell?" > rick@linuxmafia.com > > _______________________________________________ > conspire mailing list > conspire@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Jan 05 20:06:14 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18VOWj-0007aJ-00 for ; Sun, 05 Jan 2003 20:06:13 -0800 Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 20:06:13 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] my old acer laptop Message-ID: <20030106040613.GP30129@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030106004434.GB32466@starshine.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030106004434.GB32466@starshine.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 2607 Lines: 58 Quoting Heather Stern (star@starshine.org): > Well, at only 2 or 3 a debian setup can get onto the net > (e.g. via pcmcia network) - if you don't mind a slightly > large stack it can install Base completely from floppy. I thought it was conceivable that his laptop might not have PCMCIA sockets (though I don't remember seeing such a machine since the 486). But, Dan, definitely you want to leverage that PCMCIA capability as much as possible, if the laptop has any. The consistent theme you should be noting here is that there are _plenty_ of ways to install Linux other than directly from a CD-ROM drive. > 'Course I usually brazenly take the drive out, mount it > elsewhere, fill 'er up. DOesn't mean you might not still > be looking for a tight fit - 328 MB, 512 MB anyone ? :) ...And I meant to tell Dan about that option, too. Dan, many (not all) laptops are relatively painless to temporarily extract the hard drive from. They're built that way for ease of service. With the drive out of the case, you can temporarily hang it off a desktop machine's IDE chain, install Linux onto it there, and put it back into the laptop box. My recollection is that the only thing you then have to repair, in the Linux installation, is its LILO or GRUB setup, which you can do using a maintenance floppy. > Heh, no problem! p.s. Debian base comes with this abomination > called ae. Run away at full speed. Install midnight commander > and use mcedit, plus get a nice ftp client and tarball viewer all > in one... Hmm, I've been meaning to make a list of nice little console editors. There are quite a few. But yeah, mcedit does nicely. Reminds me: If you want to see a neat trick, check out the lftp client's support of the FISH protocol (FIles over SHell). The idea of FISH has the client side using a type of glue software called an IOSlave (one for FISH) to remap client requests as shell commands sent over an ssh tunnel, and then map back the return values. Several implementations exist. The one in lftp uses remote shell commands to _completely_ emulate ftp over the SSH session (browsing 'n' all). All it takes on the remote end is generic sshd. No funky sftp stuff required. There's a widget in KDE3 called kio_slave that can be called by any KDE3 software (such as Konqueror) to do any remote commands required. Same idea. Anyhow, if you want the feature set of ftp with the security of SSH, try lftp. -- Cheers, "My file system's got no nodes!" Rick Moen "How does it shell?" rick@linuxmafia.com From dmarti@zgp.org Sun Jan 05 20:34:09 2003 Received: from drunken.raving.linuxfreaks.org ([198.144.202.250] helo=capsicum.zgp.org) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18VOxl-0006Fk-00 for ; Sun, 05 Jan 2003 20:34:09 -0800 Received: by capsicum.zgp.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 027F33FC1B; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 20:32:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 20:32:41 -0800 From: Don Marti To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: pcmcia 16 bit modems Message-ID: <20030106043241.GA29139@zgp.org> References: <20030105203053.GJ30129@linuxmafia.com> <20030105231204.GM30129@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030105231204.GM30129@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 917 Lines: 20 begin Rick Moen quotation of Sun, Jan 05, 2003 at 03:12:04PM -0800: > The other lesson I learned is that spare dongles are cheap and > ubiquitous for some cards but not others. Ask politely about this at > the Action Computer front desk, and you'll see. There are at least two common types of 3Com dongles that are mechanically interchangeable but electrically different -- one works on the *589* 10Mbps-only cards, and the other works on the *575* 10/100 cards. If you have the 10/100 card, you need the 2-LED dongle, and you need the 1-LED dongle for the 10-only card. I have seen used cards for sale at swap meets with the wrong dongles. -- Don Marti Even if we don't get DMCA reform, loudly http://zgp.org/~dmarti demanding DMCA reform is going to get the dmarti@zgp.org injustice of the DMCA in front of the next KG6INA jury. Make noise. It counts. From star@starshine.org Mon Jan 06 13:40:45 2003 Received: from antares.starshine.org ([216.240.40.177] helo=antares.in.starshine.org ident=postfix) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18Vez2-0004EK-00; Mon, 06 Jan 2003 13:40:36 -0800 Received: from gemini.starshine.org (gemini.starshine.org [216.240.40.169]) by antares.in.starshine.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2844A3985; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 09:48:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by gemini.starshine.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9415B1413D; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 13:28:55 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 13:28:55 -0800 To: Rick Moen Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] my old acer laptop Message-ID: <20030106212855.GA2435@starshine.org> References: <20030106004434.GB32466@starshine.org> <20030106040613.GP30129@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030106040613.GP30129@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: star@starshine.org (Heather Stern) Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 3995 Lines: 73 On Sun, Jan 05, 2003 at 08:06:13PM -0800, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Heather Stern (star@starshine.org): > > > Well, at only 2 or 3 a debian setup can get onto the net > > (e.g. via pcmcia network) - if you don't mind a slightly > > large stack it can install Base completely from floppy. > > I thought it was conceivable that his laptop might not have PCMCIA > sockets (though I don't remember seeing such a machine since the 486). > But, Dan, definitely you want to leverage that PCMCIA capability as much > as possible, if the laptop has any. > > The consistent theme you should be noting here is that there are > _plenty_ of ways to install Linux other than directly from a CD-ROM > drive. Yes... and ways to deal with the lack. Taking a page from rick's notepad here's a fairly short enumeration, lengthened by useful comments: No PCMCIA at all (either your system *is* that ancient, the slots are broken / unsupported *cough* omnibook 600 *coffcoff*, or you have one of those handtop that need to boot from floppy and that uses up the slot.) [these are OR choices, pick one asterisk.] * loopback based FS-blob in your windows partition e.g. zipslack, phatlinux, likely others. rick's earlier msg. * use dos/win utils to split the volume boot from toms rtbt (which will let you eject the floppy) prepare the linux filesystems if case 3 applies, you may be able to network down a tarball else: now boot from debian floppies, install Base. * use a distro or instructions for one that allows networking over PLIP - your parallel port. experience shows this is easier for the client end (who has menus helping) than the server end (where you have to have PLIP set up as well as the ftp or whatever that's being served up). Requires a parallel link cable. And much patience. * serial link. same deal, but even slooo o o o oower. * use your pre-existing win thingy to download a tarball from the open net before starting asterisk #2, then go there. * split a tarball onto a HUGE stack of floppies, carefully lace them back together with upholstery thread (use either COPY /B or cat) then goto asterisk #2. And good luck, you brave soul. Don't forget to do an md5sum to check the rebuilt tarball. with at least one PCMCIA slot... and a network card. * same as asterisk number 2 above, take the if- clause. * use nearly any distro's "net install" floppy or floppy-set. * cross connect to a buddy running the server side of net install, then they can have the CDs loaded into place and you can use the net install floppy without needing the internet * (rare) maybe your computer can boot off an atapi/cdrom device plugged in there; if so then treat as normal distro install, you won't need a network card. To invade the other thread a tiny bit, if you're buying an ethernet card for your laptop for this purpose, make sure it's a stodgy old well supported one. Distros are famous for being well behind the curve on current PCMCIA support, and the boot floppies even more so because they hate changing 'em once the darn things work. It doesn't need to be slow, it just needs to have been around a while. And of course, you could just linux off of one of the floppy-set based distros - the local hard disk merely being storage space. If you do I'd suggest keeping the raw images on your hard disk and a copy of the floppy writing app handy - floppies do go bad so terribly often. Anyways some of them do have GUI environments, which wouldn't be impressive until you realize that's only one or two extra floppies to get it going... . | . Heather Stern | star@starshine.org --->*<--- Starshine Technical Services - * - consulting@starshine.org ' | ` Sysadmin Support and Training | (800) 938-4078 From jose_sanchez79@yahoo.com Mon Jan 06 15:05:44 2003 Received: from web20102.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.226.39]) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18VgJU-0000XK-00 for ; Mon, 06 Jan 2003 15:05:44 -0800 Message-ID: <20030106230414.83069.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [12.7.80.110] by web20102.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 06 Jan 2003 15:04:14 PST Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 15:04:14 -0800 (PST) From: Jose Sanchez To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [conspire] Samba Blues... Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 623 Lines: 17 Hello. I am setting up a windows machine so it can browse to my linux file server. I can see my lfs from Windows Network Neighborhood with no problem which by double-clicking on the Windows NN icon prompts me to give a user name and password. I have users setup on the lfs but when I try any of the IDs I get rejected even root. The permissions on the shared folder are set to rwx for all specified logins in the smb.conf file. What am I missing in this setup? T I A -Jose __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Mon Jan 06 15:28:42 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18Vgfh-0007iM-00 for ; Mon, 06 Jan 2003 15:28:41 -0800 Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 15:28:41 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Samba Blues... Message-ID: <20030106232841.GC30129@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030106230414.83069.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030106230414.83069.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1283 Lines: 33 Quoting Jose Sanchez (jose_sanchez79@yahoo.com): > Hello. I am setting up a windows machine so it can browse to my linux > file server. I can see my lfs from Windows Network Neighborhood with > no problem which by double-clicking on the Windows NN icon prompts me > to give a user name and password. I have users setup on the lfs but > when I try any of the IDs I get rejected even root. Ah, a Samba setup problem. Did you remember to populate the Samba password database for all users? # smbpasswd -a username I'm not really good at Samba troubleshooting, especially at a distance. You might have some luck with: ftp://ftp.stratus.com/pub/vos/customers/samba/SAMBA_Troubleshooting.rtf http://us6.samba.org/samba/ftp/docs/Samba24Hc13.pdf http://hr.uoregon.edu/davidrl/samba.html The permissions on the shared folder are > set to rwx for all specified logins in the smb.conf > file. That would be relevant to browse rights, but according to your account, you're not able to login, so you didn't reach that issue. -- Cheers, "Open your present...." Rick Moen "No, you open your present...." rick@linuxmafia.com Kaczinski Christmas. -- Unabomber Haiku Contest, CyberLaw mailing list From eferrari@attbi.com Mon Jan 06 15:42:11 2003 Received: from sccrmhc01.attbi.com ([204.127.202.61]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18Vgsl-00042d-00 for ; Mon, 06 Jan 2003 15:42:11 -0800 Received: from warmachine (12-235-197-139.client.attbi.com[12.235.197.139]) by sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01) with SMTP id <20030106234009001003plase>; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 23:40:09 +0000 Message-ID: <01bf01c2b5dc$b8348f00$050aa8c0@warmachine> Reply-To: "Eric Ferrari" From: "Eric Ferrari" To: "Jose Sanchez" Cc: References: <20030106230414.83069.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [conspire] Samba Blues... Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 15:38:29 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 3210 Lines: 104 Would need to see a copy of your smb.conf file..... Problem might be this..... In Red Hat Linux 8.0 encrypted passwords are enabled by default because it is more secure. If encrypted passwords are not used, plain text passwords are used, which can be intercepted by someone using a network packet sniffer. It is recommended that encrypted passwords be used. The Microsoft SMB Protocol originally used plaintext passwords. However, Windows 2000 and Windows NT 4.0 with Service Pack 3 or higher require encrypted Samba passwords. To use Samba between a Red Hat Linux system and a system with Windows 2000 or Windows NT 4.0 Service Pack 3 or higher, you can either edit your Windows registry to use plaintext passwords or configure Samba on your Linux system to use encrypted passwords. If you choose to modify your registry, you must do so for all your Windows NT or 2000 machines - this is risky and may cause further conflicts. To configure Samba on your Red Hat Linux system to use encrypted passwords, follow these steps: 1. Create a separate password file for Samba. To create one based on your existing /etc/passwd file, at a shell prompt, type the following command: cat /etc/passwd | mksmbpasswd.sh > /etc/samba/smbpasswd If the system uses NIS, type the following command: ypcat passwd | mksmbpasswd.sh > /etc/samba/smbpasswd The mksmbpasswd.sh script is installed in your /usr/bin directory with the samba package. 2. Change the permissions of the Samba password file so that only root has read and write permissions: chmod 600 /etc/samba/smbpasswd 3. The script does not copy user passwords to the new file. To set each Samba user's password, use the command (replace username with each user's username): smbpasswd username A Samba user account will not be active until a Samba password is set for it. 4. Encrypted passwords must be enabled in the Samba configuration file. In the file smb.conf, verify that the following lines are not commented out: encrypt password = yes smb passwd file = /etc/samba/smbpasswd 5. Make sure the smb service is started by typing the command service smb restart at a shell prompt. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jose Sanchez" To: Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 3:04 PM Subject: [conspire] Samba Blues... > Hello. I am setting up a windows machine so it can > browse to my linux file server. I can see my lfs from > Windows Network Neighborhood with no problem which by > double-clicking on the Windows NN icon prompts me to > give a user name and password. I have users setup on > the lfs but when I try any of the IDs I get rejected > even root. The permissions on the shared folder are > set to rwx for all specified logins in the smb.conf > file. What am I missing in this setup? T I A > > -Jose > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > conspire mailing list > conspire@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire From mhigashi@myrddin.imat.com Mon Jan 06 19:44:25 2003 Received: from adsl-207-214-84-142.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net ([207.214.84.142] helo=myrddin.imat.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18VkfA-0002ba-00 for ; Mon, 06 Jan 2003 19:44:24 -0800 Received: (from mhigashi@localhost) by myrddin.imat.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h073fav19834 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 19:41:36 -0800 Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 19:41:36 -0800 From: Mike Higashi To: Cabalists Message-ID: <20030107034136.GA19782@myrddin.imat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i Subject: [conspire] [CSL Colloq] The Pedal-Powered Internet * 4:15PM, Wed Jan 8, 2003 in Gates B03 Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 3569 Lines: 102 --VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Some of you might be interested the seminar described in the forwarded message below. The bio in the original message doesn't mention it, but the speaker Lee Felsenstein is also known as the moderator for the Home Brew Computing club meetings and the designer of some early home computer hardware, including the Osbourne Portable. Mike Higashi --VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.Stanford.EDU (smtp1.Stanford.EDU [171.64.14.23]) by myrddin.imat.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h064G8G14501 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 20:16:08 -0800 Received: from smtp1.Stanford.EDU (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp1.Stanford.EDU (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h064HMTw028692; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 20:17:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from elaine33.Stanford.EDU (elaine33.Stanford.EDU [171.64.15.108]) by smtp1.Stanford.EDU (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h064HMua028685; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 20:17:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 20:17:22 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200301060417.h064HMua028685@smtp1.Stanford.EDU> To: mhigashi@imat.com From: allison@stanford.edu Reply-To: ee380@shasta.stanford.edu Errors-To: ee380@shasta.stanford.edu Subject: [CSL Colloq] The Pedal-Powered Internet * 4:15PM, Wed Jan 8, 2003 in Gates B03 COMPUTER SYSTEMS LABORATORY COLLOQUIUM 4:15PM, Wednesday, Jan 8, 2003 NEC Auditorium, Gates Computer Science Building B03 http://ee380.stanford.edu[1] Topic: The Pedal-Powered Internet Wireless Village Systems in the Developing World Speaker: Lee Felsenstein Jhai Foundation[2] About the talk: The Jhai Foundation is working with a group of villages in rural Laos and has responded to the request of the villagers for a communication capability. The system under construction is Linux-based, 802.11b-interconnected and intended to be operated by village youth. With one station per village it will provide IP telephony to both the local network and the Internet, and will also run the KDE suite localized for Laos. The story of the development of this system may provide some insights into user-centric design in a completely different culture, and in turn may inform further efforts to bring digital Internet-based communications technology to other developing societies. About the speaker: Lee Felsenstein is the designer of the Jhai system and sits on the Jhai Foundation's Board of Advisors. He is an historical figure in personal computer history and has been the subject of many articles and some books. Lee holds a BSEE from UC Berkeley and 12 patents. He resides in Palo Alto. Contact information: Lee Felsenstein Golemics, Inc. 2460 Park Blvd. #1 Palo Alto, CA 94306 vox: (650) 814-0427 fax: (650) 322-2881 lee@nerditude.com[3] Embedded Links: [ 1 ] http://ee380.stanford.edu [ 2 ] http://www.jhai.org [ 3 ] mailto:lee@nerditude.com Mailing List Information: You are receiving this because you are one the the Stanford general mailing lists or because you are on the private CSL Colloquium list. A careful inspection of the headers should tell you which mailing list responsible. If you wish to unubscribe from the private CSL Colloquium list, visit http://ee380.stanford.edu and follow the links. --VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J-- From jose_sanchez79@yahoo.com Tue Jan 07 15:27:03 2003 Received: from web20109.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.226.46]) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18W37f-0005sQ-00 for ; Tue, 07 Jan 2003 15:27:03 -0800 Message-ID: <20030107232522.74868.qmail@web20109.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.117.135.130] by web20109.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 07 Jan 2003 15:25:22 PST Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 15:25:22 -0800 (PST) From: Jose Sanchez Subject: Re: [conspire] Samba Blues... To: conspire@linuxmafia.com In-Reply-To: <01bf01c2b5dc$b8348f00$050aa8c0@warmachine> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 497 Lines: 17 > The Microsoft SMB Protocol originally used plaintext > passwords. However, Windows 2000 and Windows NT 4.0 > with Service Pack 3 or higher require encrypted > Samba > passwords. After looking at /etc/samba/smb.conf, I noticed that encryption was commented out. After making encryption active and restarting smb it worked properly. Thanks. -Jose __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From jose_sanchez79@yahoo.com Tue Jan 07 17:00:37 2003 Received: from web20103.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.226.40]) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18W4a4-0004e6-00 for ; Tue, 07 Jan 2003 17:00:30 -0800 Message-ID: <20030108005840.28222.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.117.135.130] by web20103.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 07 Jan 2003 16:58:40 PST Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 16:58:40 -0800 (PST) From: Jose Sanchez To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [conspire] Burn DVDs... Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 445 Lines: 14 Hello. I am purchasing a DVD recorder (Sony DRU-500a) this week. I wanted to know if there is any software for linux regarding DVD burning. I will be adding this device on a pc running Red Hat 8.0 Linux. I want to backup some files on DVDs because of the capacity it holds (4.7 Gigs). TIA. -Jose __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Jan 07 17:22:48 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18W4va-00014u-00 for ; Tue, 07 Jan 2003 17:22:42 -0800 Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 17:22:37 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Burn DVDs... Message-ID: <20030108012237.GP8302@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030108005840.28222.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030108005840.28222.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 673 Lines: 17 Quoting Jose Sanchez (jose_sanchez79@yahoo.com): > Hello. I am purchasing a DVD recorder (Sony DRU-500a) > this week. I wanted to know if there is any software > for linux regarding DVD burning. I will be adding this > device on a pc running Red Hat 8.0 Linux. I want to > backup some files on DVDs because of the capacity it > holds (4.7 Gigs). TIA. Info I have handy is here: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/cdrecord-dvd -- Cheers, I once successfully declined a departmental retreat, Rick Moen saying that on that day I planned instead to advance. rick@linuxmafia.com -- Alan J. Rosenthal, in the Monastery From star@starshine.org Wed Jan 08 13:22:37 2003 Received: from antares.starshine.org ([216.240.40.177] helo=antares.in.starshine.org ident=postfix) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18WNem-0004Xh-00 for ; Wed, 08 Jan 2003 13:22:37 -0800 Received: from gemini.starshine.org (gemini.starshine.org [216.240.40.169]) by antares.in.starshine.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D27CC3985; Wed, 8 Jan 2003 09:31:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by gemini.starshine.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 685B414513; Wed, 8 Jan 2003 13:11:06 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 13:11:06 -0800 To: Jose Sanchez Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Burn DVDs... Message-ID: <20030108211106.GH14009@starshine.org> References: <20030108005840.28222.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030108005840.28222.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: star@starshine.org (Heather Stern) Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1387 Lines: 33 On Tue, Jan 07, 2003 at 04:58:40PM -0800, Jose Sanchez wrote: > Hello. I am purchasing a DVD recorder (Sony DRU-500a) > this week. I wanted to know if there is any software > for linux regarding DVD burning. I will be adding this > device on a pc running Red Hat 8.0 Linux. I want to > backup some files on DVDs because of the capacity it > holds (4.7 Gigs). TIA. > > -Jose There is some, but how reliable it is, is a very good question. General commentary on the web seems to be equally divided between "oh sure, it's easy! just use a tweaked version of mkisofs to make HUGE iso9660 filesystems, then the program (either Joerg Shily's prodvd, the gnu project fork dvdrecord) and it works great" such people do not generally state if they were using DVD-R or DVD+R. They weren't using DVD-RAM - that does "just work" since it looks like a hard disk. ...and "arrrrgh! I can't get this thing to work at all!" No experiment yet with the commercial ProGear package, but that's terribly expensive, since it's basically a movie-making kit. I recommend getting model numbers and typing them into search engines with the keyword linux before plunking cash down on anything. . | . Heather Stern | star@starshine.org --->*<--- Starshine Technical Services - * - consulting@starshine.org ' | ` Sysadmin Support and Training | (800) 938-4078 From jose_sanchez79@yahoo.com Wed Jan 08 14:07:52 2003 Received: from web20110.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.226.47]) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18WOMa-0005sn-00 for ; Wed, 08 Jan 2003 14:07:52 -0800 Message-ID: <20030108220608.45574.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [12.7.80.110] by web20110.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 08 Jan 2003 14:06:08 PST Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 14:06:08 -0800 (PST) From: Jose Sanchez Subject: Re: [conspire] Burn DVDs... To: star@starshine.org Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com In-Reply-To: <20030108211106.GH14009@starshine.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 2261 Lines: 80 --- Heather Stern wrote: > On Tue, Jan 07, 2003 at 04:58:40PM -0800, Jose > Sanchez wrote: > > Hello. I am purchasing a DVD recorder (Sony > DRU-500a) > > this week. I wanted to know if there is any > software > > for linux regarding DVD burning. I will be adding > this > > device on a pc running Red Hat 8.0 Linux. I want > to > > backup some files on DVDs because of the capacity > it > > holds (4.7 Gigs). TIA. > > > > -Jose > > There is some, but how reliable it is, is a very > good question. > General commentary on the web seems to be equally > divided between > > "oh sure, it's easy! just use a tweaked version of > mkisofs to make HUGE > iso9660 filesystems, then the program (either Joerg > Shily's prodvd, > the gnu project fork dvdrecord) and it works great" > > such people do not generally state if they were > using DVD-R > or DVD+R. They weren't using DVD-RAM - that does > "just work" > since it looks like a hard disk. > > ...and "arrrrgh! I can't get this thing to work at > all!" > > No experiment yet with the commercial ProGear > package, but that's > terribly expensive, since it's basically a > movie-making kit. > > I recommend getting model numbers and typing them > into search engines > with the keyword linux before plunking cash down on > anything. > > . | . Heather Stern | > star@starshine.org > --->*<--- Starshine Technical Services - * - > consulting@starshine.org > ' | ` Sysadmin Support and Training | > (800) 938-4078 It is very true what you have posted. I get "maybe it will work" from almost everyone I talked too. I need this solution to backup important data not movies and stability is what I am after. I might just have to put a tape drive instead :) > I recommend getting model numbers and typing them > into search engines > with the keyword linux before plunking cash down on > anything. Thanks for the advice but I usually do research before posting or buying. I found: http://www.xcdroast.org/#overview which has a cool look. I might just give this a try on a test system. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Jan 08 16:00:48 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18WQ7s-0001B8-00 for ; Wed, 08 Jan 2003 16:00:48 -0800 Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 16:00:48 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Burn DVDs... Message-ID: <20030109000047.GK8302@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030108211106.GH14009@starshine.org> <20030108220608.45574.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030108220608.45574.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 3056 Lines: 64 Quoting Jose Sanchez (jose_sanchez79@yahoo.com): > It is very true what you have posted. I get "maybe it will work" from > almost everyone I talked too. I need this solution to backup important > data not movies and stability is what I am after. I might just have to > put a tape drive instead :) Yeah. Doing backup to DVD _sounds_ attractive and nicely high-tech, but I'm not sure you'd like the results: 1. Capacity is OK (4.7 GB). About right for home machines, I guess. 2. Cost-effective media? I haven't priced the blanks, but suspect they're pretty damned expensive per MB, compared to, say, DDS3 tape. 3. Backup speed? Is each backup going to take a dog's age? I'm not sure. 4. Verification. A backup is worse than useless if you can't trust its integrity. (If you make unreliable backups, you're suffering a false sense of security. If you know that you have no backup, you're at least scared and cautious.) Standard backup mechanisms have verify cycles and/or extra tape heads that do hardware-level read-and-compare, to ensure that you actually have useful data. 5. Cataloguing and media rotation/reuse. Regular backup mechanisms keep records of what data are on which backup sets, so you can determine which set has the last version of your master's thesis before you accidentally deleted it. And they also tell you how much wear each backup set has gone through, and therefore which ones to recycle next and when to retire sets from service. (Of course, if you're using write-once media, this isn't an issue.) 6. Software support for incremental and differential backups, not just "grab everything" backup jobs. Easy to do with tape; can you do it with DVD? All of the above issues come up all the time on Linux mailing lists, whenever someone proposes goofy ideas like "Hey, lets do backup onto CDRWs!" just on account of being gadget freaks and not thinking through the details. And you'll hear a lot of _really_ bad advice in most such discussions. There's also a difference between backup and archival storage. Are you sure you're trying to do the former and not the latter? I'll not get into the difference right at the moment, but it has to do with what you're trying to protect against. Maybe you'll feel like expanding a bit on what you're trying to accomplish, if you'd like to get better-aimed advice. I have a partial summary of common tape-backup types, here (omitting some crucial details such as pricing): http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/tape-backup-types Some rather acidly worded mail from me to Karsten Self regarding the gadget-freak problem in backup discussions is preserved here: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/tape-backup (Also includes explanations of differential vs. incremental and backup vs. archival storage.) 'Hope that helps! -- Cheers, "My file system's got no nodes!" Rick Moen "How does it shell?" rick@linuxmafia.com From Sean.Wolfe@ticketmaster.com Mon Jan 13 13:11:46 2003 Received: from wc202.ticketmaster.com ([205.132.175.202] helo=mail.ticketmaster.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18YBs2-0008Mn-00 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2003 13:11:46 -0800 Received: by mail.ticketmaster.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) id ; Mon, 13 Jan 2003 13:09:28 -0800 Message-ID: From: Sean Wolfe To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 13:08:28 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Subject: [conspire] coax crimping tools, anyone? Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 485 Lines: 16 Hey folks, long time lurker, first time poster. New to the area, and I need to get a crimp re-done on a coax connector. These days all I have is cat 5 stuff. Does anybody know of a decent networking shop? Or, does anybody have the tools? I can return the favor with, uh, Sharks or Warriors tickets? TIA, -Sean. ---------------------------------------------------------- Sean Wolfe, CCNA IT Manager, Ticketmaster Northern California 415.951.7900 x2250 sean.wolfe@ticketmaster.com From star@starshine.org Mon Jan 13 15:03:33 2003 Received: from antares.starshine.org ([216.240.40.177] helo=antares.in.starshine.org ident=postfix) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18YDcA-0000Nf-00 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2003 15:03:31 -0800 Received: from gemini.starshine.org (gemini.starshine.org [216.240.40.169]) by antares.in.starshine.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BACA23987; Mon, 13 Jan 2003 11:11:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by gemini.starshine.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1DF7114513; Mon, 13 Jan 2003 14:54:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 14:54:53 -0800 To: Sean Wolfe Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] coax crimping tools, anyone? Message-ID: <20030113225453.GA5718@starshine.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: star@starshine.org (Heather Stern) Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1132 Lines: 24 On Mon, Jan 13, 2003 at 01:08:28PM -0800, Sean Wolfe wrote: > Hey folks, long time lurker, first time poster. > > New to the area, and I need to get a crimp re-done on a coax connector. > These days all I have is cat 5 stuff. Does anybody know of a decent > networking shop? Or, does anybody have the tools? I can return the favor > with, uh, Sharks or Warriors tickets? You can probably get crimp tools at Action Computer (lawrence expwy near arques, dot com depot, subway)? People still use that stuff for sound systems, so probably a good sound-geek shop would have the stuff. There is a ham-radio fans shop in the same complex, so if Action hasn't got it you have another place to try without even hitting the road. But I don't follow sports games, so if this helps you'll have to think of something else. And something less impressive too, since I'm only offering a pointer and not bringing over the goodies. . | . Heather Stern | star@starshine.org --->*<--- Starshine Technical Services - * - consulting@starshine.org ' | ` Sysadmin Support and Training | (800) 938-4078 From rick@linuxmafia.com Mon Jan 13 16:29:31 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18YExM-0005t8-00 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2003 16:29:28 -0800 Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 16:29:24 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] coax crimping tools, anyone? Message-ID: <20030114002924.GM7524@linuxmafia.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1131 Lines: 27 Quoting Sean Wolfe (Sean.Wolfe@ticketmaster.com): > Hey folks, long time lurker, first time poster. > > New to the area, and I need to get a crimp re-done on a coax connector. > These days all I have is cat 5 stuff. Does anybody know of a decent > networking shop? Or, does anybody have the tools? I can return the favor > with, uh, Sharks or Warriors tickets? I note Heather's thorough response to your question. Welcome! If you ever need a really _good_ crimper, look no further than one of the Crimpmaster series from Ideal Industries, available at Graybar Electric Co., Inc. (http://www.graybar.com/). I have one with RJ45 and RJ11 inserts, but haven't ever bought the inserts for any of the co-ax standards. Graybar is one place the real telco and professional cabling people get their tools and supplies. It's difficult to beat their quality, in general. Of course, it also might be tough to justify a really good tool for one-time usage. -- Cheers, There are only 10 types of people in this world -- Rick Moen those who understand binary arithmetic and those who don't. rick@linuxmafia.com From jose_sanchez79@yahoo.com Wed Jan 15 15:22:22 2003 Received: from web20108.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.226.45]) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18YwrT-0008Cp-00 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2003 15:22:19 -0800 Message-ID: <20030115232010.49119.qmail@web20108.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [12.7.80.110] by web20108.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 15 Jan 2003 15:20:10 PST Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 15:20:10 -0800 (PST) From: Jose Sanchez To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [conspire] Do you Yoper? Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 527 Lines: 17 Is anyone using this distro www.yoper.com? I'm looking forward to installing it on my K7. Quoting from yoper.com: Yoper is one of the most standardised linux's that you will find and hardware performance is better than that of any other commercial OS. With Yoper it is possible to import packages from all the other major distros including rpm's, deb's, and tgz packages. Jose __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From jlundy@spellblade.com Thu Jan 16 12:01:30 2003 Received: from spellblade.com ([63.193.4.234] ident=postfix) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18ZGCV-0000We-00 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 12:01:21 -0800 Received: from ghent (adsl-64-171-185-118.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [64.171.185.118]) by spellblade.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 603F83EBAC for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 13:37:00 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <01f101c2bd9b$cc781ec0$6501a8c0@ghent> From: "Jason Lundy" To: References: <20030108005840.28222.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> <20030108012237.GP8302@linuxmafia.com> Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 12:13:56 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Subject: [conspire] local linux QA jobs Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 318 Lines: 10 Hi all, Im normally a lurker, but getting desperate to find a decent job recently. Anyone familiar with any linux QA jobs in the local area? I spent nearly 3 years at nVidia doing the QA on the linux drivers, and am trying to find something close to the same type of position if any are available. :) Jason Lundy From rick@linuxmafia.com Sat Jan 25 04:32:45 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18cPUK-0005Hc-00 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2003 04:32:44 -0800 Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 04:32:44 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20030125123243.GQ13123@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] CABAL meeting, Saturday the 25th Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 463 Lines: 12 Well, it's time for another CABAL meeting, today (Saturday) at 4 PM, onwards until the witching hour. Two people may be coming with machines to do installations on, that I know of, one of them from Berkeley. Other than that, no special plans, but please feel welcome to come and have fun. -- Cheers, "My file system's got no nodes!" Rick Moen "How does it shell?" rick@linuxmafia.com From jose_sanchez79@yahoo.com Wed Feb 05 12:03:50 2003 Received: from web20110.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.226.47]) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18gVls-0000fw-00 for ; Wed, 05 Feb 2003 12:03:49 -0800 Message-ID: <20030205195958.94241.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [12.7.80.110] by web20110.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 05 Feb 2003 11:59:58 PST Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:59:58 -0800 (PST) From: Jose Sanchez To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [conspire] Linux PCMCIA NIC... Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 416 Lines: 13 I hava an old fujitsu laptop which I want to setup as a router/firewall but it only has one PCMCIA slot. I want to put at least two 10/100 NICs. Is there a vendor that sells a PCMCIA card with more than one RJ-45 port that linux supports? Thanks in advance. -Jose __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From nkj@namodn.com Wed Feb 05 12:26:01 2003 Received: from namodn.com ([209.0.100.49] helo=claire.namodn.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18gW7E-0000Vy-00; Wed, 05 Feb 2003 12:25:52 -0800 Received: from nkj by claire.namodn.com with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 18gW3h-0006V4-00; Wed, 05 Feb 2003 12:22:13 -0800 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:22:13 -0800 From: Nick Jennings To: Rick Moen Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] my old acer laptop Message-ID: <20030205122213.A16030@namodn.com> References: <20030105203053.GJ30129@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20030105203053.GJ30129@linuxmafia.com>; from rick@linuxmafia.com on Sun, Jan 05, 2003 at 12:30:53PM -0800 Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 752 Lines: 18 On Sun, Jan 05, 2003 at 12:30:53PM -0800, Rick Moen wrote: > > If the laptop has at least _32 MB_, then I'd say getting X11 going is > very worthwhile. Less than that, maybe, but you won't get tremendous > mileage out of it. Less than 16 MB, don't bother. Although RAM is important, it's not the only factor. My Libretto 100cts has 32mb of RAM, and the CPU is overclocked to be 200mhz I believe. However X is horribly slow, even compiled from source (I'm running FreeBSD on it), and with evilwm as my windowmanager. Mozilla is a horrid beast... and why else would you run X if not for a web browser? I suppose it is usefull as a glorified console, but only if you really need that kind of thing, which it sounds like he doesnt. - Nick From nkj@namodn.com Wed Feb 05 12:26:44 2003 Received: from namodn.com ([209.0.100.49] helo=claire.namodn.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18gW83-0000WC-00 for ; Wed, 05 Feb 2003 12:26:43 -0800 Received: from nkj by claire.namodn.com with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 18gW4W-0006VA-00; Wed, 05 Feb 2003 12:23:04 -0800 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:23:04 -0800 From: Nick Jennings To: Jose Sanchez Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Linux PCMCIA NIC... Message-ID: <20030205122304.B16030@namodn.com> References: <20030205195958.94241.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20030205195958.94241.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com>; from jose_sanchez79@yahoo.com on Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 11:59:58AM -0800 Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 721 Lines: 22 That would be cool, let me know if you find anything. On Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 11:59:58AM -0800, Jose Sanchez wrote: > I hava an old fujitsu laptop which I want to setup as > a router/firewall but it only has one PCMCIA slot. I > want to put at least two 10/100 NICs. Is there a > vendor that sells a PCMCIA card with more than one > RJ-45 port that linux supports? Thanks in advance. > > -Jose > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > conspire mailing list > conspire@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire > From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Feb 05 12:36:39 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18gWHe-0000YW-00 for ; Wed, 05 Feb 2003 12:36:38 -0800 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:36:38 -0800 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] my old acer laptop Message-ID: <20030205203638.GS22442@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030105203053.GJ30129@linuxmafia.com> <20030205122213.A16030@namodn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030205122213.A16030@namodn.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 996 Lines: 21 Quoting Nick Jennings (nkj@namodn.com): > Although RAM is important, it's not the only factor. My Libretto 100cts > has 32mb of RAM, and the CPU is overclocked to be 200mhz I believe. > However X is horribly slow, even compiled from source (I'm running > FreeBSD on it), and with evilwm as my windowmanager. Mozilla is a horrid > beast... and why else would you run X if not for a web browser? A Libretto's kind of a special case: Even more than most laptops, the Libretto palmtops are designed to keep power draw to a bare minimum. So, among other things, they use very slow hard drives that are kept spun down a lot of the time. If memory serves. Same thing with that IBM PC110 palmtop series. -- Cheers, "The front line of defense against such sophisticated Rick Moen viruses is a continually evolving computer operating rick@linuxmafia.com system that attracts the efforts of eager software developers." -- Bill Gates From star@starshine.org Wed Feb 05 12:53:58 2003 Received: from antares.starshine.org ([216.240.40.177] helo=antares.in.starshine.org ident=postfix) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18gWYO-00066T-00 for ; Wed, 05 Feb 2003 12:53:57 -0800 Received: from gemini.starshine.org (gemini.starshine.org [216.240.40.169]) by antares.in.starshine.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C13B3987; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 09:00:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by gemini.starshine.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 2382A140E8; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:40:14 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:40:13 -0800 To: Jose Sanchez Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Linux PCMCIA NIC... Message-ID: <20030205204013.GA4835@starshine.org> References: <20030205195958.94241.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030205195958.94241.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: star@starshine.org (Heather Stern) Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 866 Lines: 21 On Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 11:59:58AM -0800, Jose Sanchez wrote: > I hava an old fujitsu laptop which I want to setup as > a router/firewall but it only has one PCMCIA slot. I > want to put at least two 10/100 NICs. Is there a > vendor that sells a PCMCIA card with more than one > RJ-45 port that linux supports? Thanks in advance. > > -Jose I'm not real sure about that, but I know as of a couple of years ago there was somebody selling a oneslot/typeI converter to twoslot/typeII-typeIII. Thing stick out of your computer and looks lame, but provides that extra slot. It isn't the pcmcia bridge that limits the number of connections. All the best... . | . Heather Stern | star@starshine.org --->*<--- Starshine Technical Services - * - consulting@starshine.org ' | ` Sysadmin Support and Training | (800) 938-4078 From star@starshine.org Sat Feb 08 11:36:10 2003 Received: from antares.starshine.org ([216.240.40.177] helo=antares.in.starshine.org ident=postfix) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18halc-000627-00; Sat, 08 Feb 2003 11:36:05 -0800 Received: from gemini.starshine.org (gemini.starshine.org [216.240.40.169]) by antares.in.starshine.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCDD93985; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 07:41:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by gemini.starshine.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 52A17140E7; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 11:20:25 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 11:20:25 -0800 To: Nick Jennings Cc: Rick Moen , conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] my old acer laptop Message-ID: <20030208192025.GA7265@starshine.org> References: <20030105203053.GJ30129@linuxmafia.com> <20030205122213.A16030@namodn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030205122213.A16030@namodn.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: star@starshine.org (Heather Stern) Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1488 Lines: 40 On Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 12:22:13PM -0800, Nick Jennings wrote: > On Sun, Jan 05, 2003 at 12:30:53PM -0800, Rick Moen wrote: > > > > If the laptop has at least _32 MB_, then I'd say getting X11 going is > > very worthwhile. Less than that, maybe, but you won't get tremendous > > mileage out of it. Less than 16 MB, don't bother. > Although RAM is important, it's not the only factor. My Libretto 100cts > has 32mb of RAM, and the CPU is overclocked to be 200mhz I believe. > However X is horribly slow, even compiled from source (I'm running > FreeBSD on it), Have you tried telling it to make TinyX instead of the usual pile of bits? > and with evilwm as my windowmanager. Mozilla is a horrid > beast... Dillo. It may not do SSL nor javastuff but it certainly doesn't waste space on them, either. > and why else would you run X if not for a web browser? I suppose there might be a tiny game or some network tracing tool like ethereal. If you want a console-onle system though even 8 MB is acceptable (for doing one thing at a time) and 32 MB is decent (for comfortable multi-tasking, or one instance of emacs). > I suppose it is usefull as a glorified console, but only if you really > need that kind of thing, which it sounds like he doesnt. > > - Nick . | . Heather Stern | star@starshine.org --->*<--- Starshine Technical Services - * - consulting@starshine.org ' | ` Sysadmin Support and Training | (800) 938-4078 From nkj@namodn.com Thu Feb 13 10:44:25 2003 Received: from namodn.com ([209.0.100.49] helo=claire.namodn.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18jOLH-00038c-00; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 10:44:15 -0800 Received: from nkj by claire.namodn.com with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 18jOGy-0000n6-00; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 10:39:48 -0800 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 10:39:48 -0800 From: Nick Jennings To: Heather Stern Cc: Rick Moen , conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] my old acer laptop Message-ID: <20030213103948.E1981@namodn.com> References: <20030105203053.GJ30129@linuxmafia.com> <20030205122213.A16030@namodn.com> <20030208192025.GA7265@starshine.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20030208192025.GA7265@starshine.org>; from star@starshine.org on Sat, Feb 08, 2003 at 11:20:25AM -0800 Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 272 Lines: 11 On Sat, Feb 08, 2003 at 11:20:25AM -0800, Heather Stern wrote: > > Have you tried telling it to make TinyX instead of the usual pile of > bits? Hmmm, no, can you point me to some docs on how to do so? I'm also curious as to what features you loose from TinyX - Nick From macke@scripps.edu Thu Feb 13 12:44:34 2003 Received: from ns0.scripps.edu ([192.42.82.58]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18jQDg-0003qC-00 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 12:44:32 -0800 Received: from antigen.scripps.edu (antigen.scripps.edu [137.131.200.100]) by ns0.scripps.edu (8.11.6/TSRI-4.1rx) with SMTP id h1DKdu805179 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 12:39:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay1.scripps.edu(137.131.200.29) by antigen.scripps.edu via csmap id 19432; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 12:32:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from fermat.scripps.edu (fermat.scripps.edu [137.131.252.33]) by relay1.scripps.edu (8.11.6/TSRI-4.2rAV) with ESMTP id h1DKdkZ21479 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 12:39:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (macke@localhost) by fermat.scripps.edu (8.9.2/TSRI-3.0.1) with SMTP id MAA50940 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 12:39:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 12:39:45 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Macke X-Sender: macke@fermat To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [conspire] gigabit for linux? Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1399 Lines: 40 Hi, I want to make an upgrad to my little home Linux cluster that is 1. a little too ambitious for someone with my level of Linux system chops 2. a bit involved to expect to do at an install fest. Here's the scoop: I have 4 CPU cluster 2 750MHz laptops, 1 750Mhz tower and one 2.26GHz tower on one of those 8 port 10/100 Base/T cable/router/switches. The 2.26GHz has a 120GB disk nfs mounted to the to the other 3 and does double duty for MPI jobs as both boss (node-0) and a worker. I use this "cluster" (pushing it I know) to develop codes that are used to search Genbank for RNA 2d structures. Genbank is big (90GB and growing) and while none of the 3 750Mhz nodes can consume data at 100Mbps speed, the 3 of them taken together can consume data faster than the 100Mbps the nfs server can send to the switch. So, what I want to do is: 1. Get a new 2+GHz box and install in my n/w (No problem here) 2. Convert that 750MHz tower box to a gigabit server. The plan would be to move that 120GB drive from the 2.26GHz box (will still have an 80GB) and add another such driver so that there were 2*120GB on hda and hdc. Plus add a gigabit card, etc, etc. And this is what I know I'm not ready to do by myself. Any suggestions? My consulting budget is not large, buts its not zero either, especially if I could help and thus learn a bit more of this stuff thanks, tom From rick@linuxmafia.com Sat Feb 15 00:52:06 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18jy3I-0008QX-00; Sat, 15 Feb 2003 00:52:04 -0800 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 00:52:04 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20030215085204.GH21981@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] Installfests -- tomorrow and then March 8 Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 2226 Lines: 46 We haven't had a CABAL installfest for a while, and it's time to do it again. Tom Macke suggested we do one this weekend (Saturday, February 15) at the Cow Palace (Robert Austin Computer Show). Part of the problem with that date is that it's a 3rd Saturday. (CABAL meets 2nd and 4th Saturday evenings.) Speaking for myself, I'm not willing to tie myself down more than two Saturdays a month for CABAL. The next reasonable date that _is_ a CABAL Saturday is Saturday, March 8, at the Oakland Convention Center. So, we'll do that, then. But that reminds me that there _is_ an installfest tomorrow, anyway -- SVLUG's installfest in San Jose, 11 AM - 4 PM. It's at the usual spot, Accent Technologies, 1880 Hartog Drive @ Brokaw. Details are here: http://www.svlug.org/directions/accent.shtml I'll definitely be there -- CD collection and all. I'll have the latest Knoppix disk image, among other things. If you haven't yet played with Knoppix, you're missing a triple treat: 1. Best hardware detection you've ever seen, period. 2. Incredibly good advanced desktop system, running by default entirely from a CD. Give copies to MS-Windows-using friends, and watch them spread like wildfire (because, of course, it lets them experience a full-blown modern Unix system without having to distub their hard drives). 3. The easiest way ever invented to install Debian for x86 onto a hard drive. (There's an optional script that installs it to a local hard drive, after booting the CD-based desktop system.) My friend Karsten Self, in fact, hands out piles of Knoppix disks to people, for all of the above reasons -- with an informational flyer that you might find interesting, text preseved here: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/debian-knoppix-faq I also have the latest 2.0 release candidate of the LNX-BBC mini-disk (which burns to credit-card-sized CD media). See you there. -- Cheers, It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. Rick Moen It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, rick@ The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning, linuxmafia.com It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. From rick@linuxmafia.com Fri Feb 21 04:47:57 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18mCar-0006XS-00 for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 04:47:57 -0800 Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 04:47:56 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] gigabit for linux? Message-ID: <20030221124756.GA1831@linuxmafia.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 6258 Lines: 143 Quoting Tom Macke (macke@scripps.edu): > I want to make an upgrad to my little home Linux cluster that is > > 1. a little too ambitious for someone with my level of Linux > system chops > 2. a bit involved to expect to do at an install fest. > > Here's the scoop: > > I have 4 CPU cluster 2 750MHz laptops, 1 750Mhz tower and one 2.26GHz > tower on one of those 8 port 10/100 Base/T cable/router/switches. > > The 2.26GHz has a 120GB disk nfs mounted to the to the other 3 and does > double duty for MPI jobs as both boss (node-0) and a worker. > > I use this "cluster" (pushing it I know) to develop codes that are used to > search Genbank for RNA 2d structures. Genbank is big (90GB and growing) > and while none of the 3 750Mhz nodes can consume data at 100Mbps speed, > the 3 of them taken together can consume data faster than the 100Mbps the > nfs server can send to the switch. > > So, what I want to do is: > > 1. Get a new 2+GHz box and install in my n/w (No problem here) > 2. Convert that 750MHz tower box to a gigabit server. The plan would > be to move that 120GB drive from the 2.26GHz box (will still have an > 80GB) and add another such drive so that there were 2*120GB on hda and > hdc. Plus add a gigabit card, etc, etc. And this is what I know I'm > not ready to do by myself. > > Any suggestions? My consulting budget is not large, buts its not zero > either, especially if I could help and thus learn a bit more of this > stuff Tom -- In order to properly research your question, I went straight to a friend of mine who's an expert on clusters. I sent him a short e-mail inquiry, and then sat back and waited for the expected outpouring of wisdom. Guess what? Here's the exchange: >> What do you recommend that people use currently, in the way of GigE >> (copper) NICs, on Linux? > > You know, I haven't found the answer to that yet. Right now I'm > thinking that just getting mobos integrated with GigE is probably the > best solution, but I don't really have any numbers to back that up. Bah. So much for consulting the experts. Not a super-useful answer, but he does sort of have a point, though: A bit of casual study confirmed that one of the issues with GigE adapters is bus throughput: The PCI-card versions divide into high and so-so performance categories, according to whether they're 64-bit or 32-bit cards. Obviously, putting them on the motherboard will both remove this problem and lower costs. Of course, if you're using existing motherboards, this isn't an option. Another fact to note is that there will be serious CPU loading. PII boxes might end up being CPU-bound, which is otherwise almost unheard of among Linux systems. Since the most common application of GigE is in computational clusters, those machines would have _two_ heavy draws on CPU capacity. Anyhow, assuming you are _not_ running CPU-bound, your GigE throughput onto the wire may top out at 30-55 megabytes/sec, depending on the card. MTU (maximum transmission unit) will, as I'm sure you know, need to be upped considerably: MTU = 6000 is pretty common, or even 9000 aka "jumbo". Let me put the last and best first. Here's a list of very useful links, resulting from my research: Reviews: http://www.cs.uni.edu/~gray/gig-over-copper/ Chipsets: http://www.anime.net/~goemon/cardz/ 32-bit cards: http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/gigeth32bit/gig-eth-32bit-2.html The first of those URLs is probably best, pertaining to a well-maintained page of review information on GigE NICs for Linux. Highly recommended. That page (which I found late in my search) almost makes my notes on GigE chipsets and Linux drivers obsolete, but I offer them below, anyway: Alteon Networks AceNIC, 3Com 3C985 and NetGear GA620 and versions of the AceNIC Gigabit Ethernet adapter sold by other vendors: driver for 2.2/2.3 kernels, by Jes Sorenson. Carried forward into 2.4 series. National Semiconductor NS83820 ("Tigon1/Tigon2") chipset; ns83820 driver. Driver was developed at CERN. NetGear GA620 is still probably the cheapest card. Other cards with this chipset: D-Link DGE500T. SMC 9452TX. Ark Soho-GA2000T. Asante Giganix. Packet Engines "Yellowfin" GNIC, Driver for kernel versions 2.0.0 through 2.5. Driver was written to support the Beowulf project. Packet Engines "Hamachi" GNIC-II. Driver for kernel versions 2.0 through 2.3. Driver was written to support the Beowulf project. www.nersc.gov page clarifies that 2.4.x driver is also available. Intel Pro/1000 gigabit model 825xx (e1000 driver). Driver is still available on a third-party basis at Intel, but is now GPLed. Card is also sold as Compaq NC6xxx/NC7xxx. Often built into motherboards. 64-bit. Inexpensive ($169)! Pretty good performance/stability after some revisions to the driver software. SysKonnect. Driver is available both in the standard kernel and from the company. Very current driver (sk98lin). Expensive cards (64-bit). Syskonnect SK9821 is far and away the performance champion among all cards to date -- costs about $570. (At that price, you're almost up into Myrinet range.) Altima (nee Broadcom) NetXtreme BCM570x (tg3 driver), sometimes built into motherboards. Also separate (later) models AC1000/AC9100. Altima/Broadcom chipset is also used in NetGear GA302T. 3Com 3c996BT. Driver (bcm5700) supplied by 3Com. 64-bit card. Performance not great. In short, there seem to be quite a few decent choices in supported chipsets, with your choice depending on how much you want to spend and whether you have a 64-bit slot at your disposal. Back at my old firm, we sold the two Packet Engine cards first. Those were pretty much the first to be supported on Linux at all. Probably, therefore, they have the most mature drivers. Later on, we sold quite a few of the NetGear GA620, which was very popular on account of price. I've been out of the loop on GigE hardware for a year or so, though, so part of the point of my research was to verify which cards still have current Linux drivers (e.g., for Linux 2.4.x). Happily, it seems that pretty much everything does. 'Hope that helps. -- Cheers, Rick Moen Bu^so^stopu min per kulero. rick@linuxmafia.com From biow@bigfoot.com Sun Feb 23 10:17:03 2003 Received: from [65.127.216.150] (helo=mail.pcmagic.net) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18n0gQ-00088V-00 for ; Sun, 23 Feb 2003 10:17:02 -0800 Received: (qmail 50831 invoked by uid 88); 23 Feb 2003 10:11:41 -0800 Received: from unknown (HELO rhxp) (biow@66.81.153.219) by 0 with SMTP; 23 Feb 2003 10:11:41 -0800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Ed Biow To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 10:11:16 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200302231011.16448.biow@bigfoot.com> Subject: [conspire] NTFS Resizing Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1073 Lines: 31 There was a thread on this forum a coupla-few of months back about utilit= ies=20 for resizing NTFS partitions. Mandrake has just released 9.1 RC1, which= =20 includes NTFS resizing, apparently from ntfsresize utility=20 (http://mlf.linux.rulez.org/mlf/ezaz/ntfsresize.html), part of the Linux-= NTFS=20 Project: http://linux-ntfs.sourceforge.net/. I believe this is the same=20 resizer used in Xandros. I think I'll probably attend the InstallFest on the 8th of March, if that= is=20 still in the offing. Just out of curiosity, does FreeBSD or its ilk eve= r=20 get installed at one of these affairs? I tried installing 4.6 on a box = just=20 to play around with it recently, but was rather put off by the different = hard=20 drive naming conventions and the fact that it didn't see my partition tab= le=20 the way I envisaged it existing, so I aborted (but apparently not before = the=20 OS wrote its bootloader to my MBR!) I don't think I'm quite ready for=20 FreeBSD, but I'd like to give Redhat 8.0 a spin or maybe SuSE 8.0 if it i= s=20 available. =20 From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Feb 23 11:45:58 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18n24T-0000tT-00 for ; Sun, 23 Feb 2003 11:45:57 -0800 Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 11:45:55 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] NTFS Resizing Message-ID: <20030223194554.GE18312@linuxmafia.com> References: <200302231011.16448.biow@bigfoot.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200302231011.16448.biow@bigfoot.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 2947 Lines: 61 Quoting Ed Biow (biow@bigfoot.com): > There was a thread on this forum a coupla-few of months back about > utilities for resizing NTFS partitions. Mandrake has just released > 9.1 RC1, which includes NTFS resizing, apparently from ntfsresize > utility (http://mlf.linux.rulez.org/mlf/ezaz/ntfsresize.html), part of > the Linux-NTFS Project: http://linux-ntfs.sourceforge.net/. Hi, Ed! Yes, thank you for bringing this up. Yes, Mandrakesoft is the first distribution publisher to include ntfsresize in its installer. ntfsresize has been included in Linux-Mandrake's "Cooker" experimental distribution for quite a while, and has been in 9.1 pre-releases since Beta 3. They reportedly have a nice graphical front-end on it. > I believe this is the same resizer used in Xandros. Actually, _that_ one is PQDisk, a scriptable version of PowerQuest's Partition Magic. Please note that the NTFS resizer is reportedly included only in the Xandros Desktop OS _Deluxe_ edition, not Standard Edition. I try to keep my http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/ntfs document updated, on these matters, mostly courtesy of occasional e-mails from Szabolcs Szakacsits, author of ntfsresize. > I think I'll probably attend the InstallFest on the 8th of March, if that is > still in the offing. Just out of curiosity, does FreeBSD or its ilk ever > get installed at one of these affairs? Pretty much at every one of them. I bring a 4-disk set of 4.7 aka FreeBSD-stable. Although I have an August 2001 snapshot of 5.0 aka FreeBSD-current, it's way out of date, and I really ought to throw it out, I guess. FreeBSD is very straight-forward to install. NetBSD is less so, though it can be a lifesaver on some of the more exotic non-x86 architectures. i have NetBSD 1.5.2 disks for a bunch of architectures. I have a three-CD set of OpenBSD for i386 as well. Its installer is, well, cranky and paranoid, as is fitting. > I don't think I'm quite ready for FreeBSD, but I'd like to give Redhat > 8.0 a spin or maybe SuSE 8.0 if it is available. We certainly have RH 8.0. From a certain set of rumblings one hears out on the Net, 8.1 might actually be out by then -- or not. SuSE would certainly be fun, but I'd encourage you to buy a boxed set if you wish to try it. We bring to installfests the 7.0 "evaluation" single-CD version. SuSE Linux AG's business model entails giving you various incentives to buy the boxed sets, including more-recent versions of software and many, many more CD-ROMs. All of those boxed-set CDs contain non-redistributable proprietary software. Therefore, the disks as a whole may not lawfully be duplicated and redistributed. On the various editions of SuSE, please see: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/suse-product-strategy -- Cheers, There are only 10 types of people in this world -- Rick Moen those who understand binary arithmetic and those who don't. rick@linuxmafia.com From nkj@namodn.com Mon Feb 24 10:24:19 2003 Received: from namodn.com ([209.0.100.49] helo=claire.namodn.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18nNGv-0004DF-00; Mon, 24 Feb 2003 10:24:13 -0800 Received: from nkj by claire.namodn.com with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 18nNC5-0004lZ-00; Mon, 24 Feb 2003 10:19:13 -0800 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 10:19:13 -0800 From: Nick Jennings To: Rick Moen Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] NTFS Resizing Message-ID: <20030224101913.A15085@namodn.com> References: <200302231011.16448.biow@bigfoot.com> <20030223194554.GE18312@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20030223194554.GE18312@linuxmafia.com>; from rick@linuxmafia.com on Sun, Feb 23, 2003 at 11:45:55AM -0800 Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 3939 Lines: 84 Speaking of Mandrake, is anyone running it right now? I've installed it at work to replace my FreeBSD 4.7 system because I need Wine to work properly and would like to use browser plugins etc. without bothering with linux emulation (which worked fine, but the mozilla versions were a bit dated, and the performance was slugish compared to the native mozilla build). I'm wondering if Mandrake has a setup program for wine, I mean I could configure it "the old fashion way", but then I don't see why I should have installed Mandrake if I have to do that. :) I'm asking here first in an attempt to avoid joining yet another mailing list. - Nick On Sun, Feb 23, 2003 at 11:45:55AM -0800, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Ed Biow (biow@bigfoot.com): > > > There was a thread on this forum a coupla-few of months back about > > utilities for resizing NTFS partitions. Mandrake has just released > > 9.1 RC1, which includes NTFS resizing, apparently from ntfsresize > > utility (http://mlf.linux.rulez.org/mlf/ezaz/ntfsresize.html), part of > > the Linux-NTFS Project: http://linux-ntfs.sourceforge.net/. > > Hi, Ed! Yes, thank you for bringing this up. Yes, Mandrakesoft is the > first distribution publisher to include ntfsresize in its installer. > ntfsresize has been included in Linux-Mandrake's "Cooker" experimental > distribution for quite a while, and has been in 9.1 pre-releases since > Beta 3. They reportedly have a nice graphical front-end on it. > > > I believe this is the same resizer used in Xandros. > > Actually, _that_ one is PQDisk, a scriptable version of PowerQuest's > Partition Magic. Please note that the NTFS resizer is reportedly > included only in the Xandros Desktop OS _Deluxe_ edition, not Standard > Edition. > > I try to keep my http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/ntfs document > updated, on these matters, mostly courtesy of occasional e-mails from > Szabolcs Szakacsits, author of ntfsresize. > > > I think I'll probably attend the InstallFest on the 8th of March, if that is > > still in the offing. Just out of curiosity, does FreeBSD or its ilk ever > > get installed at one of these affairs? > > Pretty much at every one of them. I bring a 4-disk set of 4.7 aka > FreeBSD-stable. Although I have an August 2001 snapshot of 5.0 aka > FreeBSD-current, it's way out of date, and I really ought to throw it > out, I guess. > > FreeBSD is very straight-forward to install. NetBSD is less so, though > it can be a lifesaver on some of the more exotic non-x86 architectures. > i have NetBSD 1.5.2 disks for a bunch of architectures. I have a > three-CD set of OpenBSD for i386 as well. Its installer is, well, > cranky and paranoid, as is fitting. > > > I don't think I'm quite ready for FreeBSD, but I'd like to give Redhat > > 8.0 a spin or maybe SuSE 8.0 if it is available. > > We certainly have RH 8.0. From a certain set of rumblings one hears out > on the Net, 8.1 might actually be out by then -- or not. SuSE would > certainly be fun, but I'd encourage you to buy a boxed set if you wish > to try it. We bring to installfests the 7.0 "evaluation" single-CD > version. SuSE Linux AG's business model entails giving you various > incentives to buy the boxed sets, including more-recent versions of > software and many, many more CD-ROMs. All of those boxed-set CDs > contain non-redistributable proprietary software. Therefore, the disks > as a whole may not lawfully be duplicated and redistributed. > > On the various editions of SuSE, please see: > http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/suse-product-strategy > > -- > Cheers, There are only 10 types of people in this world -- > Rick Moen those who understand binary arithmetic and those who don't. > rick@linuxmafia.com > > _______________________________________________ > conspire mailing list > conspire@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire > From rick@linuxmafia.com Mon Feb 24 11:01:00 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18nNqV-0001aO-00 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2003 11:00:59 -0800 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 11:00:59 -0800 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] NTFS Resizing Message-ID: <20030224190059.GQ18312@linuxmafia.com> References: <200302231011.16448.biow@bigfoot.com> <20030223194554.GE18312@linuxmafia.com> <20030224101913.A15085@namodn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030224101913.A15085@namodn.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1599 Lines: 33 Quoting Nick Jennings (nkj@namodn.com): > Speaking of Mandrake, is anyone running it right now? I've installed it at > work to replace my FreeBSD 4.7 system because I need Wine to work properly > and would like to use browser plugins etc. without bothering with linux > emulation (which worked fine, but the mozilla versions were a bit dated, > and the performance was slugish compared to the native mozilla build). I haven't installed Mandrake in a while (will attempt to get the 9.1 RC1 ISOs soon), but your mentioning WINE setup reminds me about a different option you might consider: Knoppix. If you've heard about Knoppix at all, you probably know it as a very full-featured desktop distribution packaged as a "demo" CD. I.e., people can get full use out of it (on i386 PCs) without disturbing their hard drive contents. What you might not know about is the included optional script to install Knoppix to one's hard drive. I've tried that out, the last two weekends, and it works great. (The XFS installation option appears buggy, but ext2/ext3 and ReiserFS works fine.) As always with Knoppix, hardware recognition is top-notch, and WINE is among the many things that install already set up and working. http://www.knoppix.org/ http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/debian-knoppix http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/debian-knoppix-faq -- Cheers, Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based, Rick Moen not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed, rick@linuxmafia.com modern-American-English-usage-improvement association. From nkj@namodn.com Mon Feb 24 11:14:34 2003 Received: from namodn.com ([209.0.100.49] helo=claire.namodn.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18nO3Y-0003b9-00; Mon, 24 Feb 2003 11:14:28 -0800 Received: from nkj by claire.namodn.com with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 18nNyi-0005tb-00; Mon, 24 Feb 2003 11:09:28 -0800 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 11:09:28 -0800 From: Nick Jennings To: Rick Moen Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] NTFS Resizing Message-ID: <20030224110928.A21135@namodn.com> References: <200302231011.16448.biow@bigfoot.com> <20030223194554.GE18312@linuxmafia.com> <20030224101913.A15085@namodn.com> <20030224190059.GQ18312@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20030224190059.GQ18312@linuxmafia.com>; from rick@linuxmafia.com on Mon, Feb 24, 2003 at 11:00:59AM -0800 Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 3506 Lines: 73 I've heard allot about Knoppix, and even recommend it to people who are interested in Linux but probably aren't ready to wipe out their system just to check it out. The installation script makes it easy if they ever decide to. I also hear it's Debian based (I am a long time Debian user myself), and I might want to seriously consider this for my home machine. Here at work though I spent allot of time deliberating over what I distro I should use. The reason I chose Mandrake is because for me it's the best of both spectrums of the Linux world (the spectrum ranging from free and less support commercial;y: Debian, Slackware etc. to requiring money to use: Lindows, Xandros, and to some extent Lycoris). With Mandrake I know Wine and WineX will work good, Codeweavers etc. Commercial packages are usually packaged for Mandrake right behind Redhat. RPMs, though I don't like them as much as DEBs, are what most companies package their products for, and at work I just don't want the hassle of getting things working on a Debian system. I have the option of paying for commercial products, without having to pay for the Distro itself (like I would have to with Lindows or Xandros, and Lycoris if I want to install software packages for it via. Click-N-Run). I am very happy with Mandrake too, it "just works" and I don't have to fiddle with much in the way of system settings, GUI interfaces for the stuff I do have to fiddle with are really nice, especially when I have the responsibility of "showing off" Linux to my Windows using peers. Debian just isn't as impressive to the untrained eye. :) - Nick On Mon, Feb 24, 2003 at 11:00:59AM -0800, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Nick Jennings (nkj@namodn.com): > > > Speaking of Mandrake, is anyone running it right now? I've installed it at > > work to replace my FreeBSD 4.7 system because I need Wine to work properly > > and would like to use browser plugins etc. without bothering with linux > > emulation (which worked fine, but the mozilla versions were a bit dated, > > and the performance was slugish compared to the native mozilla build). > > I haven't installed Mandrake in a while (will attempt to get the 9.1 RC1 > ISOs soon), but your mentioning WINE setup reminds me about a different > option you might consider: Knoppix. > > If you've heard about Knoppix at all, you probably know it as a very > full-featured desktop distribution packaged as a "demo" CD. I.e., > people can get full use out of it (on i386 PCs) without disturbing their > hard drive contents. > > What you might not know about is the included optional script to install > Knoppix to one's hard drive. I've tried that out, the last two > weekends, and it works great. (The XFS installation option appears > buggy, but ext2/ext3 and ReiserFS works fine.) As always with Knoppix, > hardware recognition is top-notch, and WINE is among the many things > that install already set up and working. > > http://www.knoppix.org/ > http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/debian-knoppix > http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/debian-knoppix-faq > > -- > Cheers, Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based, > Rick Moen not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed, > rick@linuxmafia.com modern-American-English-usage-improvement association. > > _______________________________________________ > conspire mailing list > conspire@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire > From rick@linuxmafia.com Mon Feb 24 11:36:14 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18nOOb-0007SB-00 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2003 11:36:13 -0800 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 11:36:13 -0800 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] NTFS Resizing Message-ID: <20030224193613.GR18312@linuxmafia.com> References: <200302231011.16448.biow@bigfoot.com> <20030223194554.GE18312@linuxmafia.com> <20030224101913.A15085@namodn.com> <20030224190059.GQ18312@linuxmafia.com> <20030224110928.A21135@namodn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030224110928.A21135@namodn.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1929 Lines: 46 Quoting Nick Jennings (nkj@namodn.com): [Your work computer:] > The reason I chose Mandrake is because for me it's the best of both spectrums > of the Linux world (the spectrum ranging from free and less support > commercial;y: Debian, Slackware etc. to requiring money to use: Lindows, > Xandros, and to some extent Lycoris). I found the hardware autoprobing in Mandrake 9.0 to be really good. One CABAL meeting attendee brought a Sony VAIO with a Firewire CD-ROM drive, and I was very pessimistic about Linux installations via the CD drive, but Mandrake had no problem with this or any other chipset on the machine. > With Mandrake I know Wine and WineX will work good, Codeweavers etc. Good point. I seldom have occasion to install non-redistributable software goodies on Linux, so I tend not to follow this. Accordingly, I've never really thought about Crossover Wine Preview / Crossover Plugin / Crossover Office for Knoppix/Debian until just now. But you've motivated me to research it: o Codeweavers probably makes those three projects available in RPM format only. _However_, Debian is one of the five tested/supported Linux distributions. o WINE: Stable versions are apt-gettable from main archives. Daily WINE-CVS is available in unofficial packages using the following sources.list line: deb http://people.debian.org/~andreas/debian wine main > I am very happy with Mandrake too, it "just works" and I don't have to > fiddle with much in the way of system settings, GUI interfaces for the > stuff I do have to fiddle with are really nice, especially when I have > the responsibility of "showing off" Linux to my Windows using peers. Just a point: The above is a fair characterisation of Knoppix, too. -- Cheers, There are only 10 types of people in this world -- Rick Moen those who understand binary arithmetic and those who don't. rick@linuxmafia.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Mon Feb 24 12:08:30 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18nOtq-0005d3-00 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2003 12:08:30 -0800 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 12:08:29 -0800 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] NTFS Resizing Message-ID: <20030224200829.GA18652@linuxmafia.com> References: <200302231011.16448.biow@bigfoot.com> <20030223194554.GE18312@linuxmafia.com> <20030224101913.A15085@namodn.com> <20030224190059.GQ18312@linuxmafia.com> <20030224110928.A21135@namodn.com> <20030224193613.GR18312@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030224193613.GR18312@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 572 Lines: 15 Correcting my prior post: > o Codeweavers probably makes those three projects available in RPM > format only. This turns out to be incorrect: Codeweavers seems to favour tarballs with shell scripts to install them. (I downloaded Crossover Plugin, which as you may realise is a custom-role WINE variant.) -- Cheers, "Open your present...." Rick Moen "No, you open your present...." rick@linuxmafia.com Kaczinski Christmas. -- Unabomber Haiku Contest, CyberLaw mailing list From star@starshine.org Thu Feb 27 10:25:46 2003 Received: from antares.starshine.org ([216.240.40.177] helo=antares.in.starshine.org ident=postfix) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18oSj3-0001Ve-00; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 10:25:46 -0800 Received: from gemini.starshine.org (gemini.starshine.org [216.240.40.169]) by antares.in.starshine.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D242B3987; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 06:30:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by gemini.starshine.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 244AB142D1; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 10:06:43 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 10:06:43 -0800 To: Nick Jennings Cc: Rick Moen , conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] NTFS Resizing Message-ID: <20030227180643.GB24540@starshine.org> References: <200302231011.16448.biow@bigfoot.com> <20030223194554.GE18312@linuxmafia.com> <20030224101913.A15085@namodn.com> <20030224190059.GQ18312@linuxmafia.com> <20030224110928.A21135@namodn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030224110928.A21135@namodn.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: star@starshine.org (Heather Stern) Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 4611 Lines: 92 On Mon, Feb 24, 2003 at 11:09:28AM -0800, Nick Jennings wrote: > I've heard allot about Knoppix, and even recommend it to people who are > interested in Linux but probably aren't ready to wipe out their system > just to check it out. The installation script makes it easy if they > ever decide to. > > I also hear it's Debian based (I am a long time Debian user myself), and > I might want to seriously consider this for my home machine. Here at work > though I spent allot of time deliberating over what I distro I should use. > > The reason I chose Mandrake is because for me it's the best of both spectrums > of the Linux world (the spectrum ranging from free and less support > commercial;y: Debian, Slackware etc. to requiring money to use: Lindows, > Xandros, and to some extent Lycoris). Just to make clear, I don't mind if folk pick Mandrake, they seem to try to keep a stable and coherent distro together, and actually spend some effort on their beta tests. Debian's commerical support includes Libranet and (to a lesser degree) Progeny; Debian's "non" commercial support, at least for laptop users, is very highly regarded. I occasionally see users of other distros pop into the debian-laptops mailing list because it looks like the place with the real answers in it. Personally I find Libranet's installer very pleasant; partition the drive then let it do its thing. One stop at "which kernel" after a batch of stuff copies, and a friendly menu over tasksel after your fresh bootup. Not all menus and "pick some apps" when people haven't learned which apps are which yet. > With Mandrake I know Wine and WineX will work good, Codeweavers etc. Commercial > packages are usually packaged for Mandrake right behind Redhat. RPMs, though > I don't like them as much as DEBs, are what most companies package their > products for, and at work I just don't want the hassle of getting things > working on a Debian system. I'll note, for the record, that Klaus integrated Wine into Knoppix sufficiently well that it runs straight from the CD and is willing to run mswin applications from the msWin machine you're presently running on. Note that for some windows apps, they may not run if they aren't on writable media, and they may try to be a little exuberant about memeorizing their new drive conditions. For the generic case, alien works but the tricky part when moving packages among distros are the pre- and post-install scripts, and whether they affect the part of the system that memorizes sysadmin settings - since many distros have chosen different storage mechanisms for minor details like your network address, paper size, or preferred language... > I have the option of paying for commercial products, without having to pay > for the Distro itself (like I would have to with Lindows or Xandros, and > Lycoris if I want to install software packages for it via. Click-N-Run). > > I am very happy with Mandrake too, it "just works" and I don't have to > fiddle with much in the way of system settings, GUI interfaces for the > stuff I do have to fiddle with are really nice, especially when I have > the responsibility of "showing off" Linux to my Windows using peers. > > Debian just isn't as impressive to the untrained eye. :) With Knoppix, one does not need to be the trained eye in any given flavor of Linux to be impressed. I used it as a baseline to show a bit of Linux to someone who'd asked for a little tour; I'd expected to take them on a spin through the various distro websites, but she was sufficiently distracted by poking into the internationalization abilities and applications present on the disk that we chatted about it, but really didn't get there. It's not perfect. She had some rather complicated Word docs, and OpenOffice didn't do quite as well as AbiWord - and neither of them handled her chinese and english intermix. Kword handled odd character sets as smoothly as the general K environment, but doesn't fully produce msWord format, and she's of course using the more complex features too. But she certainly wasn't afraid of it and happily goofed off in its menu full of apps and toys. But recognizing herself as a power user already in a given app, she was willing to see this as an environment she could get to know. So the lesson other distros need to learn from knoppix is: put an installer on your liveCD eval disks :D . | . Heather Stern | star@starshine.org --->*<--- Starshine Technical Services - * - consulting@starshine.org ' | ` Sysadmin Support and Training | (800) 938-4078 From jose_sanchez79@yahoo.com Thu Feb 27 14:44:08 2003 Received: from web20110.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.226.47]) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18oWkx-0004KA-00 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 14:44:00 -0800 Message-ID: <20030227223811.61025.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [12.7.80.110] by web20110.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 14:38:11 PST Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 14:38:11 -0800 (PST) From: Jose Sanchez To: conspire@linuxmafia.com In-Reply-To: <20030225143030.2244.57447.Mailman@linuxmafia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [conspire] Re: NTFS Resizing Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 745 Lines: 29 The reason I chose Mandrake is because for me it's the best of both spectrums of the Linux world (the spectrum ranging from free and less support commercial;y: Debian, Slackware etc. to requiring money to use: Lindows, Xandros, and to some extent Lycoris). Actually if you want the best of all worlds you can try: Yoper Linux http://www.yoper.com I (college student) personally am tired of using some of these distros because they just make it too easy for you to do anything which really takes the learning experience away. rpm -i abc123.rpm (like my math teacher said, "Baby Food") Peace, Jose __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From nkj@namodn.com Thu Feb 27 15:05:53 2003 Received: from namodn.com ([209.0.100.49] helo=claire.namodn.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18oX68-0004VR-00 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 15:05:53 -0800 Received: from nkj by claire.namodn.com with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 18oX14-0003rV-00; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 15:00:38 -0800 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 15:00:38 -0800 From: Nick Jennings To: Jose Sanchez Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: NTFS Resizing Message-ID: <20030227150038.D10719@namodn.com> References: <20030225143030.2244.57447.Mailman@linuxmafia.com> <20030227223811.61025.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20030227223811.61025.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com>; from jose_sanchez79@yahoo.com on Thu, Feb 27, 2003 at 02:38:11PM -0800 Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 965 Lines: 26 On Thu, Feb 27, 2003 at 02:38:11PM -0800, Jose Sanchez wrote: > Actually if you want the best of all worlds you can > try: > Yoper Linux > http://www.yoper.com > > I (college student) personally am tired of using some > of these distros because they just make it too easy > for you to do anything which really takes the learning > experience away. Well, I've been using Linux since 1997, so it's not about a learning for me, especially while at work and I need to get stuff done and integrate easily and without hassle into the office network environment. I have 5 or so servers here at work as well. Ranging from Fileservers, to Firewalls which run anything from Debian, to RedHat, to SourceMage. So I still get plenty of practice in - and I get paid for it too! :) But I do agree with what you are saying. Someone who is new to linux and actually WANTS to learn about linux might want to avoid the distro's that try to hide everything. - Nick From jose_sanchez79@yahoo.com Thu Feb 27 21:15:46 2003 Received: from web20110.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.226.47]) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18ocs6-0008L9-00 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 21:15:46 -0800 Message-ID: <20030228051028.11433.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [198.144.198.191] by web20110.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 21:10:28 PST Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 21:10:28 -0800 (PST) From: Jose Sanchez To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Cc: nkj@namodn.com In-Reply-To: <20030227150038.D10719@namodn.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [conspire] Re: NTFS Resizing Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1624 Lines: 59 --- Nick Jennings wrote: > On Thu, Feb 27, 2003 at 02:38:11PM -0800, Jose > Sanchez wrote: > > Actually if you want the best of all worlds you > can > > try: > > Yoper Linux > > http://www.yoper.com > > > > I (college student) personally am tired of using > some > > of these distros because they just make it too > easy > > for you to do anything which really takes the > learning > > experience away. > > Well, I've been using Linux since 1997, so it's not > about a learning > for me, especially while at work and I need to get > stuff done > and integrate easily and without hassle into the > office network environment. > > I have 5 or so servers here at work as well. > Ranging from Fileservers, to > Firewalls which run anything from Debian, to > RedHat, to SourceMage. So I > still get plenty of practice in - and I get paid > for it too! :) > > But I do agree with what you are saying. Someone > who is new to linux and > actually WANTS to learn about linux might want to > avoid the distro's that > try to hide everything. > > - Nick > I understand where you are coming from. I guess whatever distro meets your needs is best for you. With people wanting to try linux it is good to have tools that let you resize your partitions (NTFS). I have been running linux since 98, I still remember caldera linux 2.3 with partition magic and lizard . So I still get plenty of practice in - and I get paid for it too! :) Cool. Jose __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From mhigashi@myrddin.imat.com Wed Mar 05 18:51:09 2003 Received: from adsl-207-214-84-142.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net ([207.214.84.142] helo=myrddin.imat.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18qlTR-0007us-00 for ; Wed, 05 Mar 2003 18:51:09 -0800 Received: (from mhigashi@localhost) by myrddin.imat.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h262j6J23127 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 18:45:06 -0800 Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 18:45:06 -0800 From: Mike Higashi To: Cabalists Message-ID: <20030306024506.GB23010@myrddin.imat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i Subject: [conspire] Saturday's InstallFest Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1332 Lines: 28 Rick previously announced on this list that we'll have an InstallFest this coming Saturday, March 8th, as part of the Robert Austin Computer Show which will be held at the Oakland Convention Center. This is a reminder for y'all to come and hang out, and help whoever drops by to get comfortable with Linux. In the past, we've relied on Duncan to contact the Robert Austin folks so that they'll have booth space reserved for us. What's happened the past several InstallFests is that when I get there to check in and set up, they have no knowledge of us being there, and scramble to find somewhere to put us. So today I called the Robert Austin office (the number is 1-800-346-0100, if you're interested) to make sure that we'll have some space -- and got a good chewing out for calling too late to put an announcement of the InstallFest into their email ticket. I can't really blame them for doing that, one of us should have called last week. We'll have to work something out to make sure that somebody calls them about 10 days before we want to have an InstallFest. They did say they would go ahead and give us a four-booth island for this show. They'll be in the usual, larger exhibit hall at the Oakland Convention Center. By the way, Rick: This InstallFest is listed on the CABAL site, but not on BALE. Mike Higashi From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Mar 05 19:12:30 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18qlo6-00088U-00; Wed, 05 Mar 2003 19:12:30 -0800 Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 19:12:29 -0800 To: Cabalists Subject: Re: [conspire] Saturday's InstallFest Message-ID: <20030306031229.GV31023@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030306024506.GB23010@myrddin.imat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030306024506.GB23010@myrddin.imat.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 2515 Lines: 47 Quoting Mike Higashi (mhigashi@imat.com): > By the way, Rick: This InstallFest is listed on the CABAL site, but not > on BALE. Yes. Some while back, Deirdre was kind enough to do the bulk of the work required to convert BALE to PHP/MySQL -- for which I'm very thankful. That work did not include any systematic briefing of me about the schema and design, though I've gotten answers to a few questions and a bit of help. Eventually, after using the MySQL command-line query tool to make changes for a while and finding that... tedious..., I got OpenOffice.org set up on my laptop as a query tool for MySQL access via ODBC. I was going to sit down a couple of days ago, and try to figure out -- perhaps with Deirdre's help -- how to set up one-time, non-recurring events such as CABAL Installfests in the new setup. Last I remember hearing from Deirdre, the new design did not incorporate that design element, though I'd been very clear on its necessity. Of late, Deirdre has been too busy with important work of her own to take a hand in the problem. Two days ago, my laptop developed a variety of hardware trouble, and is currently at a service shop, allegedly being repaired. I do not have an ETA, for its return (if any). All I have so far is a $75 charge to my credit card for the first hour of work, which may of course be down the tubes if the machine is not repairable. I could, very likely, replicate the OpenOffice.org/ODBC setup on the spare desktop box on my kitchen table (running Knoppix installed to the hard drive). That would take opening up the MySQL security access via a command-line-tool revision to one of its system tables, again -- and, of course, another dollop of setup time. And then, presumably, I'd have to lavish another even bigger dollop of time on the problem of how to implement non-recurring events, since the database design reportedly didn't include that. Meanwhile, I'm crunched for time to do paying work -- with reduced computing facilities. You see my problem. Or, of course, I could just say "Fsck this", scrap the PHP and MySQL, and put the ugly old -- but well-maintained -- vi-edited static HTML back. But that would ignore the fact that the database-driven design _is_ in pretty nearly every way better. -- Cheers, Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based, Rick Moen not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed, rick@linuxmafia.com modern-American-English-usage-improvement association. From mhigashi@myrddin.imat.com Wed Mar 05 19:18:46 2003 Received: from adsl-207-214-84-142.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net ([207.214.84.142] helo=myrddin.imat.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18qluA-00089U-00 for ; Wed, 05 Mar 2003 19:18:46 -0800 Received: (from mhigashi@localhost) by myrddin.imat.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h263ChG23242 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 19:12:43 -0800 Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 19:12:43 -0800 From: Mike Higashi To: Cabalists Message-ID: <20030306031243.GB23167@myrddin.imat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i Subject: [conspire] Using Linux in non-profits Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 655 Lines: 17 A friend of mine is hosting a dinner this Saturday for folks who provide technical support for non-profits. One of the things he'll be talking about is how adapting Linux could reduce their costs and let them make better use of the old hardware that they're saddled with. I'm wondering if any of you have suggestions on what benefits Linux will provide, or how to minimize the cost of adaption. He's already planning on talking about: Saving money on software licenses. Turning old hardware (486s/Pentium 90s) into viable systems with LTSP. Using Knoppix as a desktop operating system. Is there anything else you can think of? Mike Higashi From deirdre@deirdre.net Wed Mar 05 19:51:56 2003 Received: from emperor ([198.144.195.190] helo=emperor.deirdre.org ident=root) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18qmQG-0008Mp-00 for ; Wed, 05 Mar 2003 19:51:56 -0800 Received: from deirdre.net (airport.deirdre.org [198.144.195.188]) by emperor.deirdre.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Debian-6) with ESMTP id h263ZD9U012242; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 19:35:14 -0800 Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 19:46:12 -0800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Cc: Ross Bernheim To: Cabalists From: Deirdre Saoirse Moen Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <2C6A62E8-4F86-11D7-B8D9-000393B986EE@deirdre.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) Subject: [conspire] Cabal Installfest Schedule update posted Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 499 Lines: 13 As Mike Higashi pointed out, we'd neglected to update the bale page to reflect the upcoming Oakland installfest. Anyone who wishes to attend the Cabal meeting afterward in Menlo Park (6 p.m. onwards) is implored to brainstorm about creative uses for excess lemons. Recipes would be appreciated! -- _Deirdre http://deirdre.net "Cannot run out of time. There is infinite time. You are finite. Zathras is finite. This....is wrong tool." -- Zathras From jose_sanchez79@yahoo.com Thu Mar 06 09:55:41 2003 Received: from web20107.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.226.44]) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18qzan-00062p-00 for ; Thu, 06 Mar 2003 09:55:41 -0800 Message-ID: <20030306174953.89160.qmail@web20107.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [12.7.80.110] by web20107.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 06 Mar 2003 09:49:53 PST Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 09:49:53 -0800 (PST) From: Jose Sanchez To: conspire@linuxmafia.com In-Reply-To: <20030306142720.17214.10216.Mailman@linuxmafia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [conspire] Re: Saturday's InstallFest Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 246 Lines: 11 So who will actually be at the installfest in Oakland on Saturday from Cabal's mailing list? :) Jose __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From jeremyb@whirljack.net Thu Mar 06 10:45:29 2003 Received: from whirljack.net ([63.204.216.244] helo=www.whirljack.net) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18r0Mz-0006Q2-00 for ; Thu, 06 Mar 2003 10:45:29 -0800 Received: from jeremyb by www.whirljack.net with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 18r0HR-0005m6-00 for ; Thu, 06 Mar 2003 10:39:45 -0800 Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 10:39:45 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: Saturday's InstallFest Message-ID: <20030306183945.GA22195@whirljack.net> References: <20030306142720.17214.10216.Mailman@linuxmafia.com> <20030306174953.89160.qmail@web20107.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030306174953.89160.qmail@web20107.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: Jeremy Brooks Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 541 Lines: 22 I'll be there. Is it easy to get there via BART? On Thu, Mar 06, 2003 at 09:49:53AM -0800, Jose Sanchez wrote: > So who will actually be at the installfest in Oakland > on Saturday from Cabal's mailing list? :) > > Jose > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more > http://taxes.yahoo.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > conspire mailing list > conspire@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Mar 06 12:12:31 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18r1jC-00075U-00; Thu, 06 Mar 2003 12:12:30 -0800 Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 12:12:30 -0800 To: Jeremy Brooks Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: Saturday's InstallFest Message-ID: <20030306201230.GE31023@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030306142720.17214.10216.Mailman@linuxmafia.com> <20030306174953.89160.qmail@web20107.mail.yahoo.com> <20030306183945.GA22195@whirljack.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030306183945.GA22195@whirljack.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-gazette-tag: Rick Moen From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1036 Lines: 26 Quoting Jeremy Brooks (jeremyb@whirljack.net): > I'll be there. > > Is it easy to get there via BART? About as easy as it gets. Get off at 12th Steet / Broadway station, Oakland. The Convention Center adjoins a hotel (Hyatt Regency?) on the north side of Broadway between 10th and 11th Streets. If you haven't already, you can get a coupon via e-mail for free admission to the Robert Austin Computer Show. Delivery in about an hour: http://www.robertaustin.com/showregistation.htm Please note that this is not CABAL charging money. We have no say in the matter. If you don't have a coupon in hand, _or_ show up at the Convention Center loading dock around 9:30 AM having made advance arrangements with me or Mike Higashi to be "Linux Installfest Staff" (which is what you tell the RobAusCo people), then RobAusCo will ding you for (currently) $8, to let you in. -- Cheers, "Linux means never having to delete your love mail." Rick Moen -- Don Marti rick@linuxmafia.com From amcgee@iceland.freeshell.org Thu Mar 06 16:45:05 2003 Received: from iceland.freeshell.org ([216.162.208.196] helo=sdf.lonestar.org ident=root) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18r5ys-0000fW-00 for ; Thu, 06 Mar 2003 16:44:59 -0800 Received: from iceland.freeshell.org (IDENT:amcgee@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.12.8/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h270ctDw005438; Fri, 7 Mar 2003 00:38:55 GMT Received: (from amcgee@localhost) by iceland.freeshell.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h270ctpn005437; Fri, 7 Mar 2003 00:38:55 GMT Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 00:38:55 +0000 (UTC) From: Art McGee X-X-Sender: amcgee@iceland.freeshell.org To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Using Linux in non-profits In-Reply-To: <20030306142720.17214.10216.Mailman@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1396 Lines: 46 > A friend of mine is hosting a dinner this Saturday for > folks who provide technical support for non-profits. One > of the things he'll be talking about is how adapting Linux > could reduce their costs and let them make better use of > the old hardware that they're saddled with. I assume your friend is familiar with and has told you about the international movement of non-profit technology consultants and techies known as Circuit Riders? We're having our national gathering this weekend at the Oakland Marriott, right around the corner from the computer show. See the following for more information: http://www.nten.org http://npogroups.org/lists/info/riders > I'm wondering if any of you have suggestions on what > benefits Linux will provide, or how to minimize the cost > of adaption. You should also be aware that during the Circuit Riders conference, an organization known as the Non-Profit Open Source Initiative will be conducting workshops and doing demonstrations via an Open Source Cyber Cafe. Many of the techies and system administrators involved in working with non-profits are strong advocates of Free and Open Source software, so the issues are not new. For more information, check out the following: http://www.nosi.net http://www.linuxfund.org http://www.ltsp.org Art McGee Principal Consultant Virtual Identity Communications+Media+Technology 1-510-967-9381 From mhigashi@myrddin.imat.com Thu Mar 06 19:52:54 2003 Received: from adsl-207-214-84-142.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net ([207.214.84.142] helo=myrddin.imat.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18r8ug-00024Y-00 for ; Thu, 06 Mar 2003 19:52:51 -0800 Received: (from mhigashi@localhost) by myrddin.imat.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h273kan30168 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 19:46:36 -0800 Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 19:46:36 -0800 From: Mike Higashi To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Using Linux in non-profits Message-ID: <20030307034636.GB30128@myrddin.imat.com> References: <20030306142720.17214.10216.Mailman@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 792 Lines: 19 On Fri, Mar 07, 2003 at 12:38:55AM +0000, Art McGee wrote: > > A friend of mine is hosting a dinner this Saturday for > > folks who provide technical support for non-profits. One > > of the things he'll be talking about is how adapting Linux > > could reduce their costs and let them make better use of > > the old hardware that they're saddled with. > > I assume your friend is familiar with and has told you > about the international movement of non-profit technology > consultants and techies known as Circuit Riders? We're > having our national gathering this weekend at the Oakland > Marriott, right around the corner from the computer show. Actually, he's going to be at that same conference. He also said he'll send people over to the computer show, and to our InstallFest. Mike From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Mar 18 17:00:24 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18vRwM-0000IS-00; Tue, 18 Mar 2003 17:00:22 -0800 Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 17:00:22 -0800 From: Rick Moen To: Scott Rieger Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20030319010022.GU29879@linuxmafia.com> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20030318160201.02846da8@mail.attbi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030318160201.02846da8@mail.attbi.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: [conspire] Re: Quick Question about Debian install. . . Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 4313 Lines: 97 Quoting Scott Rieger (digicamman@attbi.com): > Just wanted to know if you build a Debian package on one disk in > system "A" and them move that disk to system "B" will that mess up the > Debian database or only affect the hardware and CPU kernel info? I suspect you may mean "install" when you say "build", above. (Literally speaking, to build a Debian package is to compile it.) However, I'm left a _little_ uncertain what you're asking about. More about that, below. Ordinarily, you would install package on a second system the same way you would on the first system. That is, you would not try to copy or move _installed_ software from the first system to the second, but rather would install the same package names onto the second system in the same approximate manner you did the first one. > If I start to build the system I was telling you about, just wanted to know > if it could be potable to another system with better hardware? Reading _this_ question, I _think_ I understand what you're asking about. You're saying something like: "I'm planning to build a Debian system using my old PPro and antique Trident video card today. Later on, can I extract my hard drive from the P233, put it into a new Athlon-oriented system with ATI Radeon video, and expect everything to work?" The answer is "Yes, but...." I can think of four gotchas. 1. On i386 installs (as opposed to PowerPC, Alpha, SPARC, etc.), Debian defaults to installing prebuilt kernels that are completely generic and will work on any i386 or up including 386, 486, Pentium, Pentium MMX, Pentium Pro, PII, PIII, P4, K6, Athlon, Duron, etc. _However_, there are alternate prebuilt kernel images available from Debian mirrors that have better CPU optimisation. Let's say you installed one with P6 optimisation, to better work with your PPro. That kernel probably wouldn't boot on your Athlon. The fix would be to pull down from the Debian mirrors a K7/Athlon-optimised prebuilt kernel just before transplanting your hard drive (or put back the generic i386-optimised one). 2. XFree86 setup. X11 probably wouldn't work, at first. You'd probably have to re-run "dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xfree86" to set it up for the ATI Radeon. I could be wrong. 3. Boot-up. A valid LILO or GRUB setup for one motherboard may not work after transplanting the hard drive to a different motherboard, because of difference in the way they assign cylinder, head, and sector numbers to hard drives. Therefore, you might have to re-do LILO/GRUB from a maintenance floppy, after moving the hard drive. 4. Your /etc/modules and /etc/modules.conf files would probably be totally wrong, because they'd have references to hardware drivers that were needed only on your old system, and lack ones needed for your new one. Fixing this might be a bit of a pain. (Likewise, symlinks in /dev such as mouse, cdrom, and modem might need to be re-pointed.) To answer your question generally, Debian packages on i386 architecture don't otherwise install themselves in non-portable ways. But another way around the problem you mention would be to first do a minimal Debian install on the new hardware, and then make Debian's apt-get tool reinstall the same package _names_ as you had before, having written out to a file the installed-packages list while the old system was running, prior to shutting it down. Quoting my http://linuxmafia.com/debian/tips file: Writing out your current installed packages: # dpkg --get-selections >selections.txt And get their current versions (not strictly needed): # COLUMNS=150 dpkg -l > packages.txt To reconstruct the system, install the Debian Base System, then: # dpkg --set-selections To: lucy lee Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20030322090834.GC29879@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030309014840.GB31023@linuxmafia.com> <20030322081600.2793.qmail@web12702.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030322081600.2793.qmail@web12702.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: [conspire] Re: eth0 failed Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 2977 Lines: 62 Quoting lucy lee (lucy_zack2000@yahoo.com): > Thanks for your help, I have installed the redhat 8.0, and I applied > for a new Earthlink Linux account for dial-up.but I failed many times > to get connected. I think that I may choose the wrong selection at the > beginng of installing Linux, since when I boot up,everthing is OK, > except the following: bring up interface eth0 > > determing IP infromation eth0 ...failed no link present,check cable? > [failed] Hi, Lucy! (1) "No link present" means that no ethernet signal is arriving at the network port. Either the cable isn't fully plugged in at one end or the other, or the cable is defective, or it's the wrong type of cable, or the device at the other end of the cable is turned off / defective / not supplying ethernet signal for some reason. In other words, Linux is telling you it was able to enable the local ethernet interface (eth0), but was unable get a DHCP lease from the far end because it could not get a valid ethernet signal from the far end. But... wait a second.... "Dial-up?" OK, we have a fundamental problem, here: It sonds as if you're saying that you intend to use a _modem_ to communicate with Earthlink -- a modem that's either inside the Linux box (internal modem) or attached to it via a serial cable. Do you have such a modem inside the Linux box or attached to its serial port? Furthermore, do I correctly guess that nothing at all is connected to your Linux box's ethernet port? Do I correctly guess that you are not planning to use the ethernet port in the immediate future? If I guess correctly, then you should disable initialisation of /dev/eth0 (the ethernet port) for the future, and should set up PPP dial-up on your modem port. The Red Hat manuals explain how to do that, specifically the Red Hat Linux Customization Guide, available on-line at Red Hat's Web site: http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/linux/RHL-8.0-Manual/custom-guide/ch-network-config.html (2) I've taken the liberty of cc'ing my user group CABAL's mailing list, conspire@linuxmafia.com . You should join that mailing list (see: http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire), and please send further requests for help to that or similar Linux community public forums, rather than sending them to private e-mail. There are numerous reasons why that is a better approach, including the fact that, when you get help via public forums, other people benefit from both your question and any answers you receive. Also, you'll get answers from more than just one person. Finally, public discussion is vitally important to how the Linux community grows. (3) If you still have problems, please feel welcome to bring your machine to tomorrow's CABAL meeting, 4 PM at my house, 2033 Sharon Road, Menlo Park. See you there! -- Cheers, "Censeo Toto nos in Kansa esse decisse." Rick Moen -- D. Gale rick@linuxmafia.com From lucy_zack2000@yahoo.com Mon Mar 24 11:38:58 2003 Received: from web12707.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.173.244]) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18xXmc-0005CK-00 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2003 11:38:58 -0800 Message-ID: <20030324193153.81408.qmail@web12707.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [209.179.252.14] by web12707.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 24 Mar 2003 11:31:53 PST Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 11:31:53 -0800 (PST) From: lucy lee To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [conspire] Thanks to Rick Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 383 Lines: 14 Hi, Rick, Thank you very much ! I have connected to the earthlink by dial-up .Without your help, I couldn't do it.You are such a nice and knowledgeable person .I am very very appreciate it. best regards! Lucy & Zack __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com From mail-fiend@mouseandfrog.org Mon Mar 24 12:53:04 2003 Received: from smtp.everyone.net ([216.200.145.17] helo=rmta02.mta.everyone.net) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18xYwK-0005oq-00 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2003 12:53:04 -0800 Received: from SFSEANW2.mouseandfrog.org (unknown [205.132.172.230]) by rmta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 758EA7F5A for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2003 12:45:59 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.1.1.6.0.20030324124456.00a71a48@pop.everyone.net> X-Sender: mail-fiend@mouseandfrog.org@pop.everyone.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 12:45:57 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com From: Sean Wolfe-Justice Subject: Re: [conspire] Thanks to Rick In-Reply-To: <20030324193153.81408.qmail@web12707.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 297 Lines: 13 Another victim of the conspiracy. . . :o) At 11:31 AM 3/24/2003 -0800, you wrote: >Hi, Rick, >Thank you very much ! I have connected to the >earthlink by dial-up .Without your help, I couldn't >do it.You are such a nice and knowledgeable person .I >am very very appreciate it. >best regards! From jose_sanchez79@yahoo.com Tue Mar 25 09:07:03 2003 Received: from web20107.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.226.44]) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18xrt9-000627-00 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2003 09:07:03 -0800 Message-ID: <20030325165954.69685.qmail@web20107.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [12.7.80.110] by web20107.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 25 Mar 2003 08:59:54 PST Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 08:59:54 -0800 (PST) From: Jose Sanchez To: conspire@linuxmafia.com In-Reply-To: <20030325142720.18553.99016.Mailman@linuxmafia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [conspire] Re: Thanks to Rick Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 2240 Lines: 102 Another victim of the conspiracy. . . # start evil laugh buuahahaha --- conspire-request@linuxmafia.com wrote: > Send conspire mailing list submissions to > conspire@linuxmafia.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, > visit > > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire > or, via email, send a message with subject or body > 'help' to > conspire-request@linuxmafia.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it > is more specific > than "Re: Contents of conspire digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Thanks to Rick (lucy lee) > 2. Re: Thanks to Rick (Sean Wolfe-Justice) > > --__--__-- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 11:31:53 -0800 (PST) > From: lucy lee > To: conspire@linuxmafia.com > Subject: [conspire] Thanks to Rick > > Hi, Rick, > Thank you very much ! I have connected to the > earthlink by dial-up .Without your help, I couldn't > do it.You are such a nice and knowledgeable person > .I > am very very appreciate it. > best regards! > > Lucy & Zack > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, > live on your desktop! > http://platinum.yahoo.com > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 12:45:57 -0800 > To: conspire@linuxmafia.com > From: Sean Wolfe-Justice > > Subject: Re: [conspire] Thanks to Rick > > Another victim of the conspiracy. . . > > :o) > > At 11:31 AM 3/24/2003 -0800, you wrote: > >Hi, Rick, > >Thank you very much ! I have connected to the > >earthlink by dial-up .Without your help, I > couldn't > >do it.You are such a nice and knowledgeable person > .I > >am very very appreciate it. > >best regards! > > > > > --__--__-- > > _______________________________________________ > conspire mailing list > conspire@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire > > > End of conspire Digest __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com From mailjones@mouseandfrog.org Tue Mar 25 17:21:24 2003 Received: from smtp.everyone.net ([216.200.145.17] helo=rmta01.mta.everyone.net) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18xzbY-0001O0-00 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2003 17:21:24 -0800 Received: from SFSEANW2.mouseandfrog.org (unknown [205.132.172.216]) by rmta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFA79A3DF6 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2003 17:14:18 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.1.1.6.0.20030325170630.00a7c608@pop.everyone.net> X-Sender: mailjones@mouseandfrog.org@pop.everyone.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 17:14:18 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com From: Sean Wolfe-Justice Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [conspire] disk imaging programs Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1104 Lines: 28 Can anybody point me in the right direction: I have been wrestling with a couple Linux-originated disk cloning apps, PartImage and CloneIt. They both have procedures to create bootable images but I can't seem to make them work using rawrite. I've had difficulty downloading the files as well. Sometimes wget just stops after about 20k is downloaded. PartImage www.partimage.org disk images http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=6212&release_id=78032 CloneIt http://www.ferzkopp.net/Software/CloneIt/CloneIt.html This CloneIt looks pretty neat. So why do his disk image files not make a readable floppy? I sucessfully (I think) downloaded the files, gunziped them, and wrote them to floppy. I should admit that being a Linux newbie, much of this has been done under Windows. But rawrite is for Windows, and a raw floppy image is the same regardless, right? My Debian boot floppies come up just fine on my Windows machine. If anybody can recommend something else to try, or their favorite cloning tool, that would be great. Maybe I just need to go buy Ghost. TIA, -Sean. From nkj@namodn.com Tue Mar 25 17:38:53 2003 Received: from namodn.com ([63.150.15.11] helo=cliff.namodn.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18xzsT-0001a3-00 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2003 17:38:53 -0800 Received: from nkj by cliff.namodn.com with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 18xzqw-0004qQ-00; Tue, 25 Mar 2003 17:37:18 -0800 Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 17:37:18 -0800 From: Nick Jennings To: Sean Wolfe-Justice Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] disk imaging programs Message-ID: <20030326013718.GA18527@namodn.com> References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030325170630.00a7c608@pop.everyone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030325170630.00a7c608@pop.everyone.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i X-Info: http://www.iaminsane.com Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 2012 Lines: 53 Have you tried using 'dd'? Just make a boot floppy, like tomsrtbt and boot off it. Assuming you have the disk you'd like to create the image from and the disk you'd like to put the image on, in the same system, you can just use dd to write, sector by sector, the disk image. For instance if you have a working linux system on /dev/hda, and a blank hard drive of the same side as /dev/hdb, after booting off the floppy (so that none of the disks are in use) you can do a: dd if=/dev/hda of=/dev/hdb (if = input file/device) (of = ouput file/device) WARNING: you could wipe out everything if you do this wrong. - Nick On Tue, Mar 25, 2003 at 05:14:18PM -0800, Sean Wolfe-Justice wrote: > Can anybody point me in the right direction: > > I have been wrestling with a couple Linux-originated disk cloning apps, > PartImage and CloneIt. They both have procedures to create bootable images > but I can't seem to make them work using rawrite. > > I've had difficulty downloading the files as well. Sometimes wget just > stops after about 20k is downloaded. > > PartImage www.partimage.org disk images > http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=6212&release_id=78032 > CloneIt http://www.ferzkopp.net/Software/CloneIt/CloneIt.html > > This CloneIt looks pretty neat. So why do his disk image files not make a > readable floppy? I sucessfully (I think) downloaded the files, gunziped > them, and wrote them to floppy. > > I should admit that being a Linux newbie, much of this has been done under > Windows. But rawrite is for Windows, and a raw floppy image is the same > regardless, right? My Debian boot floppies come up just fine on my Windows > machine. > > If anybody can recommend something else to try, or their favorite cloning > tool, that would be great. Maybe I just need to go buy Ghost. > > TIA, -Sean. > > > _______________________________________________ > conspire mailing list > conspire@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire > From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Mar 25 18:16:05 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18y0SS-0001qx-00 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2003 18:16:04 -0800 Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 18:16:04 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] disk imaging programs Message-ID: <20030326021604.GA26169@linuxmafia.com> References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030325170630.00a7c608@pop.everyone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030325170630.00a7c608@pop.everyone.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 4658 Lines: 83 Quoting Sean Wolfe-Justice (mailjones@mouseandfrog.org): > I have been wrestling with a couple Linux-originated disk cloning apps, > PartImage and CloneIt. They both have procedures to create bootable images > but I can't seem to make them work using rawrite. > I've had difficulty downloading the files as well. Sometimes wget just > stops after about 20k is downloaded. > > PartImage www.partimage.org disk images > http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=6212&release_id=78032 > CloneIt http://www.ferzkopp.net/Software/CloneIt/CloneIt.html > > This CloneIt looks pretty neat. So why do his disk image files not make a > readable floppy? I sucessfully (I think) downloaded the files, gunziped > them, and wrote them to floppy. > > I should admit that being a Linux newbie, much of this has been done under > Windows. But rawrite is for Windows, and a raw floppy image is the same > regardless, right? My Debian boot floppies come up just fine on my Windows > machine. The following is a little scattershot, since it's (initially) unclear exactly where your problem is occurring. 1. Could be that you didn't download the entire floppy-image file. If this were a CD image, very likely you'd find a tiny imagename.md5 file listed for download right alongside the imagename.img (or imagename.raw, whatever) disk image. Floppies, however, are so small that such redundancy checks (stored md5sum values) usually aren't provided. If it'll help, I have a version of Partimage (and of the Partboot floppy images) at http://linuxmafia.com/pub/hardware/ , alternatively reachable at ftp://linuxmafia.com/pub/hardware/ . It's not current, but it's there if you need it. 2. Could be that you've encountered a run of bad floppies. This has become a very, very common problem. Make sure you listen carefully to the sound of the floppy drive, while it's writing out the disk. You can hear if the drive is having to repeatedly attempt to write a track. If you hear that, even if try number n allegedly succeeds, you may elect to throw out that floppy and try a different one. However, even disks that write out with no audible retries are sometimes, nonetheless, no good. 3. Could be that you need a different rawrite utility. I vaguely recall that rawrite was originally written for MS-DOS. There have been two ports tailored for Win32 systems. I carry both of them at http://linuxmafia.com/pub/ms-windows/ aka ftp://linuxmafia.com/pub/ms-windows/ . Quoting the directory's index file (catalogue): 363726 Oct 7 20:15 rawrite32.zip Martin Husemann's Win32 port of rawrite to all Win32 operating systems. Utility for writing of diskette-image files, e.g. to install Linux from floppies. C and C++ source code and Win32 binary under a free-usage licence. Compilation requires RSADSI's MD5 source code (added), zlib source code (added) and Microsoft Developer's Studio 6. From: http://www.duskware.com/rawrite32/ 248679 Oct 7 16:20 rawwritewin-0.6.zip John Newbigin's Win32 port of rawrite to WinNT, to compensate for problems getting past the Hardware Abstraction Layer, especially in NT-based versions of MS-Windows such as Windows2000 and Windows XP. Utility for writing of diskette-image files, e.g. to install Linux from floppies. Pascal and C++ source code and Win32 binary under the GNU GPL. Compilation seems to require Borland Delphi and Borland C++. From: http://uranus.it.swin.edu.au/~jn/linux/ rawwrite.htm -- Cheers, "That scruffy beard... those suspenders... that smug ex- Rick Moen pression.... You're one of those condescending Unix users!" rick@linuxmafia.com "Here's a nickel, kid. Get yourself a real computer." -- Dilbert From mailjones@mouseandfrog.org Tue Mar 25 18:52:05 2003 Received: from smtp.everyone.net ([216.200.145.17] helo=rmta02.mta.everyone.net) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18y11J-00023m-00 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2003 18:52:05 -0800 Received: from SFSEANW2.mouseandfrog.org (unknown [205.132.172.216]) by rmta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61DDA806F for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2003 18:44:55 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.1.1.6.0.20030325183250.00a84e28@pop.everyone.net> X-Sender: mailjones@mouseandfrog.org@pop.everyone.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 18:44:54 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com From: Sean Wolfe-Justice Subject: Re: [conspire] disk imaging programs In-Reply-To: <20030326021604.GA26169@linuxmafia.com> References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030325170630.00a7c608@pop.everyone.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20030325170630.00a7c608@pop.everyone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1471 Lines: 42 >1. Could be that you didn't download the entire floppy-image file. >If this were a CD image, very likely you'd find a tiny imagename.md5 >file listed for download right alongside the imagename.img (or >imagename.raw, whatever) disk image. Floppies, however, are so small >that such redundancy checks (stored md5sum values) usually aren't >provided. Yeah, I saw the .md5 files and CD stuff, I'm pretty sure I got the floppy files. >If it'll help, I have a version of Partimage (and of the Partboot floppy >images) at http://linuxmafia.com/pub/hardware/ , alternatively reachable >at ftp://linuxmafia.com/pub/hardware/ . It's not current, but it's >there if you need it. I'm gonna check it out. . . that sounds great. . . >2. Could be that you've encountered a run of bad floppies. This has >become a very, very common problem. That's a good point, they are old, I was wondering. . . maybe that's the case. >3. Could be that you need a different rawrite utility. yeah, I tried ntrawrite and rawrite2. . . The adventure continues, I'm trying g4u now. Excited to try that out, I put BulletproofFTP server on my Windows box, I'll try making the g4u bootfloppies and going that route, dumping and retrieving the images files via ftp off the bootfloppy. Pretty soon I'll be able to do the FTP server via Linux. . . So, the Conspire list has been very quiet lately. What's the deal? And was it just my PC, or was Slashdot down today? Rock on! -Sean. From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Mar 25 20:06:01 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18y2Aq-0002d7-00 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2003 20:06:00 -0800 Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 20:06:00 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] disk imaging programs Message-ID: <20030326040600.GC26169@linuxmafia.com> References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030325170630.00a7c608@pop.everyone.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20030325170630.00a7c608@pop.everyone.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20030325183250.00a84e28@pop.everyone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030325183250.00a84e28@pop.everyone.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 704 Lines: 18 Quoting Sean Wolfe-Justice (mailjones@mouseandfrog.org): > So, the Conspire list has been very quiet lately. What's the deal? Conspire's _generally_ pretty quiet. Nobody really publicises it, but it perks up by itself from time to time. > And was it just my PC, or was Slashdot down today? Could have been. It was up in the morning and mid-day. I was out during the afternoon, so I couldn't comment on that. -- Cheers, "The front line of defense against such sophisticated Rick Moen viruses is a continually evolving computer operating rick@linuxmafia.com system that attracts the efforts of eager software developers." -- Bill Gates From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Mar 25 23:02:10 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18y4vK-0003wv-00 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2003 23:02:10 -0800 Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 23:02:10 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] disk imaging programs Message-ID: <20030326070210.GE26169@linuxmafia.com> References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030325170630.00a7c608@pop.everyone.net> <20030326013718.GA18527@namodn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030326013718.GA18527@namodn.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1613 Lines: 36 Quoting Nick Jennings (nkj@iaminsane.com): > Have you tried using 'dd'? Just make a boot floppy, like tomsrtbt and > boot off it.... Sean, he's right: Using standalone Linux media is really often the easiest solution. E.g., if you have access to a CDR burner, you could use one of the (many) Linux maintenance CD images: http://www.lnx-bbc.org/ LNX-BBC "bootable business card" http://rescuecd.sourceforge.net/ Timo's Rescue CD http://www.knopper.net/knoppix/index-en.html Knoppix The last of these three (unlike the other two) isn't a mini-CD, but rather a full-sized one, and boots an extremely cutting-edge, full featured Linux desktop distribution that recognises your hardware automatically and runs a general-usage desktop system entirely from the CD. It's very cool: Because most of the contents are stored compressed, it actually gives you a couple of gigs of applications, configured and runnable. With any of the CD images booted and running, you can then (among other things) temporarily mount your Windows "C:" drive and write the floppy images to disks using good ol' reliable Linux "dd", like this. (I'll assume you've put a diskette image in C:\ .) (Boot one of the CDs.) mount -t vfat /dev/hda1 /mnt dd if=/mnt/partboot.raw of=/dev/fd0 #"if" is input file; "of" is output file -- Cheers, It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. Rick Moen It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, rick@ The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning, linuxmafia.com It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. From Jeff.Suttor@earthlink.net Tue Mar 25 23:51:37 2003 Received: from mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.48]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18y5hB-0004Fl-00 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2003 23:51:37 -0800 Received: from h-68-164-77-87.snvacaid.covad.net ([68.164.77.87] helo=[192.168.1.100]) by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18y5aJ-0000Tu-00 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Tue, 25 Mar 2003 23:44:31 -0800 Subject: Re: [conspire] disk imaging programs From: Jeff Suttor To: conspire@linuxmafia.com In-Reply-To: <20030326040600.G