From conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Sun Dec 24 01:00:02 2000 Path: not-for-mail From: Rick Moen Newsgroups: cabal.conspire Organization: If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already. Distribution: world Summary: Keywords: User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991201 ("Polish") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.16 (i586)) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 00:59:06 -0800 Message-ID: Xref: linuxmafia.com cabal.conspire:2 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: [conspire] Next InstallFest Status: O Content-Length: 873 Lines: 18 Ordinarily, we try to alternate InstallFest locations between the Cow Palace and the Oakland Convention Center. However, the only January 2001 date that seemed to work for everyone was Saturday, Jan. 24 (the 4th Saturday), which is a Cow Palace date for the Robert Austin Company. So, the Cow Palace it is! BAFUG wasn't able to make the December 9 Cow Palace event, but I hope Josef will be able to join Mike Higashi for the January date. I must say, I had a blast with everyone at the December shindig, and at the CABAL meeting afterwards -- even though I was coming down with a horrible case of the 'flu, and pretty much collapsed around 10 PM. Let's go for it again, and this time with no viruses. -- Cheers, "Reality is not optional." Rick Moen -- Thomas Sowell rick@linuxmafia.com From dagmar@dsurreal.org Thu Feb 01 19:41:40 2001 Received: from w082.z064002035.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net ([64.2.35.82] helo=evil.kung.foo) by uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 14OX6S-000156-00 for ; Thu, 01 Feb 2001 19:41:40 -0800 Received: from localhost (IDENT:dagmar@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by evil.kung.foo (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f123Yrj31149 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 19:34:53 -0800 Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 19:34:53 -0800 (PST) From: "Dagmar d'Surreal" To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [conspire] PING Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 54 Lines: 5 Halooo... *kof*kof* This thing still works, right? From rick@linuxmafia.com Fri Feb 02 11:35:45 2001 Received: from rick by uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 14Olzl-0006Pc-00 for ; Fri, 02 Feb 2001 11:35:45 -0800 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 11:35:45 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] PING Message-ID: <20010202113545.Z26541@linuxmafia.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from dagmar@dsurreal.org on Thu, Feb 01, 2001 at 07:34:53PM -0800 X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black X-fnord: +++ath X-CABAL: There is no CABAL. X-CABAL-URL: There is no http://linuxmafia.com/cabal/ X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. X-Eric-regex-matching: There are no stealth members of the conspiracy. From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 841 Lines: 26 begin Dagmar d'Surreal quotation: > Halooo... > > *kof*kof* This thing still works, right? It's _newly_ set up. CABAL hasn't had a mailing list since a brief period in its earliest days, so I finally got around to setting one up -- after figuring out and debugging the NNTP gateway support. (This mailing list is readable as cabal.conspire via any newsreader. You can thus read old posts and follow-up on them, and participate without having to carry an e-mail subscription.) Anyway: At the January 27 Cow Palace InstallFest, we decided on the next two dates: Saturday, March 10 (Cow Palace). Saturday, April 14 (Oakland Convention Center). I'll post those to the Web pages shortly. I just got back from the NYC LinuxWorld. -- Cheers, Re-elect Al Gore in '04. Rick Moen rick@linuxmafia.com From dagmar@dsurreal.org Fri Feb 02 18:36:04 2001 Received: from w082.z064002035.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net ([64.2.35.82] helo=evil.kung.foo) by uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 14OsYV-0004KZ-00; Fri, 02 Feb 2001 18:36:04 -0800 Received: from localhost (IDENT:dagmar@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by evil.kung.foo (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f132T9j00443; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 18:29:09 -0800 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 18:29:09 -0800 (PST) From: "Dagmar d'Surreal" To: Rick Moen cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] PING In-Reply-To: <20010202113545.Z26541@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 372 Lines: 9 Well, I was mainly asking because I just moved to San Fran a few months ago and am looking to find where the Linux people are out here. There were quite a number of them in NLUG back in Nashville, and after subscribing to two different lists here, waiting a week or so and seeing *nothing* come through either of them, I was starting to get a little worried. Hehehe. From rick@linuxmafia.com Sat Feb 03 12:49:43 2001 Received: from rick by uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 14P9ct-0003MK-00 for ; Sat, 03 Feb 2001 12:49:43 -0800 Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 12:49:43 -0800 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] PING Message-ID: <20010203124943.K26541@linuxmafia.com> References: <20010202113545.Z26541@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from dagmar@dsurreal.org on Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 06:29:09PM -0800 X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black X-fnord: +++ath X-CABAL: There is no CABAL. X-CABAL-URL: There is no http://linuxmafia.com/cabal/ X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. X-Eric-regex-matching: There are no stealth members of the conspiracy. Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 3004 Lines: 61 begin Dagmar d'Surreal quotation: > Well, I was mainly asking because I just moved to San Fran a few > months ago and am looking to find where the Linux people are out here. > There were quite a number of them in NLUG back in Nashville, and after > subscribing to two different lists here, waiting a week or so and > seeing *nothing* come through either of them, I was starting to get a > little worried. Oh, don't worry much. There are very active mailing lists for SVLUG, SlugLUG, NBLUG, SULUG, SacLUG and LUGOD. BUUG has a somewhat active list. BALUG and CCSFLUG's lists exist but are seldom posted to. EBLUG has a (lame) Web-based forum you can participate in if you wish -- and BUUG has one, too. CalLUG used to have a mailing list, but I'm not sure it does now. Hardly anyone has (yet) found out that _this_ mailing list / newsgroup exists. In a way, it was my final test platform for GNU Mailman's NNTP gateway functions. I have in mind to offer list/newsgroup hosting for free to CalLUG, for one thing. I might wait until I've added and debugged a search engine for the Web archive -- or might not. I've been working on this for a while: Mailing lists have a lot of disadvantages, that go away when you add (1) NNTP gatewaying, (2) ASCII archives, and (3) Web archives with (4) a search engine. I now have everything but the last piece. There are InstallFests run by CABAL/BALUG, SVLUG, NBLUG, LUGOD, and SacLUG. CABAL/BALUG's will be convenient to you (Muni and/or BART); the rest only if you have a car or ride along with someone. The groups' regular non-InstallFest meetings pose a similar problem: Only BALUG currently is holding meetings _in_ San Francisco (in Chinatown). You could get to CalLUG's (in Berkeley) on BART, and CABAL's (in Menlo Park) via CalTrain. CABAL used to be a _very_ active group in South of Market district, S.F., but lost its meeting location. (We hope that, if our sponsor Richard Couture finds another good location for his Linux-based CoffeeNet business, we can resume S.F. meetings.) If you hadn't found it already, let me point out my Bay Area Linux Events page: http://linuxmafia.com/bale/ So, I'm guessing one of the two lists you're on is balug-talk@balug.org, right? And this is the second? That would explain it. You may be interested in the SVLUG mailing list, and in the upcoming SVLUG meeting in north San Jose. SVLUG is probably the biggest Bay Area group, at the moment. The next meeting is this coming Wednesday evening, and features Eric Allman, author of Sendmail, talking about mail filtering. SVLUG meetings tend to be large and run mostly in lecture format, such that there's limited interaction among the attendees. Partly to compensate for that lack, SVLUG has after-meeting dinners, and also its InstallFests the 3rd Saturday of each month. -- Cheers, Before enlightenment, caffeine. Rick Moen After enlightenment, caffeine. rick@linuxmafia.com From conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Sat Feb 3 15:50:03 2001 Path: not-for-mail From: Rick Moen Subject: Re: [conspire] PING Newsgroups: cabal.conspire References: <20010202113545.Z26541@linuxmafia.com> Organization: Distribution: world User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991201 ("Polish") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.16 (i586)) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 15:48:17 -0800 Message-ID: <1c5i59.lqm.ln@linuxmafia.com> Xref: linuxmafia.com cabal.conspire:7 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 898 Lines: 20 I'm just following up my own post, this time using a newsreader. > Oh, don't worry much. There are very active mailing lists for SVLUG, > SlugLUG, NBLUG, SULUG, SacLUG and LUGOD. BUUG has a somewhat active list. > BALUG and CCSFLUG's lists exist but are seldom posted to. EBLUG has a > (lame) Web-based forum you can participate in if you wish -- and BUUG > has one, too. CalLUG used to have a mailing list, but I'm not sure it > does now. It turns out that CalLUG now not only has a mailing list, but has _four_ mailing lists. None of them carry much traffic, currently. I forgot to mention SMAUG in Santa Cruz: It also has a (new-ish) mailing list. And, if you run Debian GNU/Linux, there's the Bay Area Debian list. -- Cheers, Before enlightenment, caffeine. Rick Moen After enlightenment, caffeine. rick@linuxmafia.com From conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Sat Feb 10 18:40:03 2001 Path: not-for-mail From: Deirdre Saoirse Moen Newsgroups: cabal.conspire Organization: Summary: Keywords: User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991201 ("Polish") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.17 (i586)) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 18:39:52 -0800 Message-ID: Xref: linuxmafia.com cabal.conspire:8 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: [conspire] History of Unix URL Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 98 Lines: 6 Nice diagram of Unix relationships: http://perso.wanadoo.fr/levenez/unix/history.html _Deirdre From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Feb 13 17:39:38 2001 Received: from rick by uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 14Squv-0003l2-00 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:39:37 -0800 Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:39:37 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20010213173937.L7555@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] Mindsource BOFs, 2001-02-21 and 2001-03-28 Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 8894 Lines: 234 These are highly recommended. ----- Forwarded message from Mindsource Events ----- From: events@mindsrc.com (Mindsource Events) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:33:30 -0800 X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: rick@hugin.imat.com Subject: Mindsource BOF #43 Systems and Network Security in a Colocation Enviroment "Systems and Network Security in a Colocation Environment" MindSource BOF #43 Wednesday, February 21st, 2001 7PM until late In the 43rd of our Bird's of a Feather series MindSource is delighted to again present Marcos Della, of Cstone. We hope to have a second contributor at this event as well. Marcos will cover: * Stateful and Stateless network security in high traffic environment. * Systems security, basic tools and packages that every server should have. And then some esoteric issues. * Using third party software to secure large networks including tripwire, ssh, tcp wrappers, rsync, and more. How to do this when integrating multiple machines in large server farms. THE NEXT BOF: BoF 44 (wed 03/28) More on security and networks - stay tuned BOF Particulars: Where: Michaels At Shoreline (restaurant near the golf course in SL park) Addr: 2960 No. Shoreline Blvd., Mt View 650.962.1014 Date: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 Time: 6:00 Happy hour - no host bar 7:30 BOF Begins There will be an abundance of great food, and great people. This is an opportunity to network, meet your peers, and bone up on some essential leading-edge technical knowledge. ==> All about BOFs : MindSource organizes these semi-monthly 'Bird's of a Feather' get togethers (That's "BOF") for Unix system admins and others interested in Internet and Web related technologies, in the San Francisco Bay Area. The events are FREE and open to the public. We do ask that you please RSVP by sending mail to events@mindsource.com with rsvp as the subject... [ so we know can provide an abundance of hors d'oevres ] ==> MindSource Opportunities : We currently have a gong-load of openings, both permanent and contract, for Unix Systems Administrators, Network Engineers, and Web Engineers throughout the Silicon Valley area. All of our permanent and contract opportunities are available on our web pages, or by sending a blank email message to: jobs@mindsrc.com. For instructions on our mailbot send email to info@mindsrc.com. ==> More Info: Check out this page for more information, and a map to the BOF site: http://www.mindsrc.com/bof.html ==> To be _added_ to the bof mailing list send (empty body email) to: majordomo@mindsrc.com with the command "subscribe mindsource_bof" in the body of the email ==> Following please find a list of MindSource BOF's -- past and future BOF #42 * Countering DOS and SynFlood attacts - Ross Oliver BOF #41 * Mason / PHP and other ways of looking at prototyping web sites. BOF #40 * Load Balancing Web Sites at ISO layer 2.5; 3; and a little bit of 4. Marcos Della (Cstone); Scott Heyer of Hotmail, and Chad Jenison of Resonate. BOF #39 * An outline for designing large web infrastructures using two and three tier solutions. BOF #38 * May 22 Even more perl than that Randal Swartz (Stonehenge consulting) BOF #37 * Mar 22 Even more perl JT McDuffie (PLX Technolgies) BOF #36 * Feb 22 An Introduction to Perl Regular Expressions Warren Belfer (sun); JT McDuffie (PLX Technolgies) BOF #35 * Nov 99 Exploring the Cisco IOS - LIVE ROUTER LAB ! Scott Heyer (Microsoft); Ulf Zimmerman (Inktomi) Wedge Martin (MindSource) BOF #34 * Oct 99 Halloween Boooo(f) Wild Wild WANS : Frame Delay Bowen (Cheetah) Goletz BOF #33 * How not to be SOL with SQL Greg Junell (Cstone); Mike Hennahane (NetTempo) BOF #32 * Web Server Performance tuning Robert Harker (Harker Systems) BOF #31 * Feb 99 Building IPfilters for secure networks * Marcos Della (Cstone) , Eric Bataller (SolSoft) BOF #30 * Nov 1998 * An Evening with Hal: "Perl Survival Skills" * Hal Pomeranz (Dear Run) BOF #29 * Sept 1998 * Maintaining Back-end E-commerce sites * K. Mig Hoffman and Steven Pierce (MindSource) BOF #28 * July 1998 * URL Middleware * Hal Pomeranz, Glen Kosaka, Rob Riepel BOF #27 * March 1998 * Intro to CGI / perl scripting * Bill Ward, (MindSource) BOF #26 * February 1998 * Wireless IP * Alan Saldich of Metricom BOF #25 * Jan 1998 * Comparative Literature : Perl and TCL * Randal Schwartz - Brent Welch BOF #24 * Nov 1997 * NT administration for Unix Hacks * Ben Jones, Jim Truher of Open NT BOF #23 * Sept 1997 * Going Postal, and SPAM * Strata Rose, Robert Harker BOF #22 * August 1997 * Java for CGI; JDBC; Java Media Framework * Mark Chamness, Tim Freeman BOF #21 * July 1997 * Reliable IP Multicast * Brian Whetter - Global Cast BOF #20 * April 1997 * Perl CGI library * Bill Ward (Silicon Graphics), Robert Boucher, and JT McDuffie BOF #19 * Feb 1997 * Routing with OSPF and CIDR * Mark Mellis (Silicon Graphics) and Robert Harker BOF #18 * Nov 1996 * The Laws of Cyberspace * Dan Appleman and Greg Raifman (atty's) BOF #17 * Oct 1996 * Internet Plumbing - The Big Pipes * Bill Manning (IANA) and Carl Mueller (Best) BOF #16 * Aug 1996 * Evolving Intranets, and the integration of Company-Wide Resources * M. Strata Rose (Synopsys) BOF #15 * Jul 1996 * Free BSD, Apache Server, and SSL * Jordan Hubbard (Walnut Creek Software), Matt Dillon, and Sameer Parekh BOF #14 * May 1996 * Privacy on the Internet - Cypherpunks ! * Hugh Daniel, Derek Atkins and Sameer Parekh BOF #13 * Apr 1996 * Intro to Java and httpd Client-State Cookies * Headley Williamson (JavaSoft) and M. Strata Rose BOF #12 * Feb 1996 * Developing Web interfaces for Oracle, and Oracle Data Warehousing * Mike McGrath (Oracle Corporation) and Tom Blalock (Northern Telecom) BOF #11 * Jan 1996 * The Internet and the Law * Greg Raifman and Maureen Dorney (Grant Carey, et al) BOF #10 * Nov 1995 * Intro to Shell Programming and Perl * Dave Clark and Phil Cordier BOF #09 * Oct 1995 * WAIS - searching very large web space * Johnny Goldman (Synopsys), Stu Soffer, and Andrew Duquete BOF #08 * Aug 1995 * Intro to CGI-bin and Imagemaps * Chris Dow, Bob Palowoda (Sun MicroSystems) BOF #07 * May 1995 * IUMA, VRML, and HotJava * Will Hobbs (IUMA) , Kevin Long (SGI) , and Chuck McMannis (JavaSoft) BOF #06 * Apr 1995 * Internet Service Provision * Robert Berger (Internex) and Vin Maddux BOF #05 * Feb 1995 * Advanced HTML Design * M. Strata Rose and Chris Dow BOF #04 * Jan 1995 * 100 Dumb Unix Sys Admin Tricks * Dave Clark (MindSource) BOF #03 * Dec 1994 * The NCSA httpd server and Solaris for Intel * Bob Palowoda (Sun MicroSystems) BOF #02 * Nov 1994 * Firewalls and PPP * Robert Harker (Harker Seminars) BOF #01 * Oct 1994 * Perl for Unix Sys Admins * JT McDuffie copyright 2001 mindsource software engineers incorporated MindSource (r) is a registered trademark www.mindsrc.com www.mindsource.com Mail list services: Send a blank email note to one of the following accounts for the response desired: jobs@mindsrc.com # open jobs list info@mindsrc.com # info about MindSource map@mindsrc.com # receive a map to MindSource beer@mindsrc.com # beer micro-brew with us! subscribe@mindsrc.com # join the BOF mailing list bof@mindsrc.com # info about MindSource BOFs OR (r)eply to events@mindsrc.com with the indicated Subject: Subject: removeall # un-join all mailing lists Subject: remove # remove from BoF mailer Subject: rsvp # rsvp to the next BOF # ------ This message has been sent in accordance with Federal and State Legislation regarding unsolicited commercial e-mail (UCE). To have an address removed from future announcements please use the mailbot, above, or simply call our office: 650.254.8909(voice) 650.254.8907(fax). # ------ ----- End forwarded message ----- From conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Fri Apr 27 14:45:03 2001 Path: not-for-mail From: Rick Moen Newsgroups: cabal.conspire Organization: Distribution: world Summary: User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991201 ("Polish") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.16 (i586)) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 14:44:07 -0700 Message-ID: <77pcc9.hm3.ln@linuxmafia.com> Xref: linuxmafia.com cabal.conspire:10 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: [conspire] CABAL meeting will be held _earlier_, tomorrow Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 922 Lines: 21 Tomorrow, Saturday 2001-04-28, we'll have one of the regular, twice-monthly CABAL meeting in Menlo Park. Ordinarily, it would start at the standard time of 4 PM and run until either everyone's done or midnight, whichever comes first. _However_, because of an evening commitment Deirdre and I have in the East Bay, we've had to reschedule: Starting time: 10 AM Ending time: 3 PM (about) We will have the usual barbecue -- just as a lunch, rather than dinner. The weather looks to be spectacularly good. Among the topics we might want to cover: How to do residential ADSL, since we've just wired up and re-IPed the household to get connectivity through Raw Bandwidth Communications. -- Cheers, Everything is gone; Rick Moen Your life's work has been destroyed. rick@linuxmafia.com Squeeze trigger (yes/no)? -- David Carlson (winner, haiku error message contest) From mkonety@musambi.com Mon Feb 18 12:06:44 2002 Received: from foster.siteprotect.com ([64.26.0.17]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.34 #1 (Debian)) id 16cu3d-0000RX-00 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:06:42 -0800 Received: from Tippu (12-234-96-103.client.attbi.com [12.234.96.103]) by foster.siteprotect.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA19683 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:06:10 -0600 From: "Madhu Konety" To: Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:06:07 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Subject: [conspire] Need Help: Service Level Management Tool Beta Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1222 Lines: 34 Hi all, We are a startup building software products to address your application level service management needs. Our product, the App.Tuate, is for system administrators and IT operations managers to manage application infrastructure (web servers, load balancers, application servers) from the user service perspective. Yep there are a lot of management tools out there and App.Tuate is different in that we are not a monitoring and reporting tool but provide dynamic system resource management. The product provides automation to improve operational productive, ensure consistent service levels for users and optimizes infrastructure capacity. I would like to invite a you all to beta test our product and give us your valuable feedback. As part of the beta program, we might send in a engineer for your deployment and request your feedback from time to time. We also have a choice of exciting thank you gifts, you can choose from, to appreciate your efforts and support. The ideal test environment is Apache on Linux with mySQL or postgres and Java 1.2 or higher. So please hurry in, reply to this email and sign up for beta testing this exciting new product. Madhu Konety Musambi Corp. Email: qms@musambi.com From zambonigrill@yahoo.com Fri Jul 26 16:15:18 2002 Received: from web21307.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.128.232]) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17YEIo-0001MU-00 for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 16:15:18 -0700 Message-ID: <20020726231504.78234.qmail@web21307.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [32.97.110.142] by web21307.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 16:15:04 PDT Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 16:15:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Koki Zamboni To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [conspire] Submission - Web Cast: Using WebSphere Studio Application Developer on Linux Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 486 Lines: 16 Web Cast: Using WebSphere Studio Application Developer on Linux Learn how to build dynamic Web apps on Linux that interact with the IBM DB2 7.2 database or the Lotus Domino 5.0 collaboration server. You can register to attend the Webcast on July 31 at 10:00 a.m. Central. http://webevents.broadcast.com/ibm/developer/073102/index.asp?loc=12,lnxu03 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Jul 31 17:09:02 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17a3WY-00027C-00; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 17:09:02 -0700 Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 17:09:01 -0700 To: deirdre@deirdre.net, conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20020801000901.GF6467@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] (forw) [vox] [marc_news@merlins.org: [svlug] Here's the REVOLUTION OS screening info] Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 2435 Lines: 75 ----- Forwarded message from nbs ----- Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 17:06:41 -0700 From: nbs To: vox@lists.lugod.org, lug-nuts@saclug.org, talk@nblug.org, roselug@groups1.vip.scd.yahoo.com Subject: [vox] [marc_news@merlins.org: [svlug] Here's the REVOLUTION OS screening info] Reply-To: vox@lists.lugod.org Revolution OS screening in San Jose in August!!! -bill! pr@lugod.org http://www.lugod.org/ ----- Forwarded message from Marc MERLIN ----- Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 15:35:38 -0700 From: Marc MERLIN Subject: [svlug] Here's the REVOLUTION OS screening info To: svlug@lists.svlug.org ----- Forwarded message from "J.T.S. Moore" ----- Marc, Thank you again for helping out on getting REVOLUTION OS booked into a movie theater in the Bay Area. The press screening will be free and open to the public. So feel free to notify whoever you wish. The press screening is at 10 AM on Wednesday, August 14, at the Camera 3 Cinemas at 288 South Second Street (corner of 2nd and San Carlos) in downtown San Jose. REVOLUTION OS will open on August 23 at one of Camera Cinemas theatres. For more information check the Camera Cinemas website: http://www.cameracinemas.com/coming.htm I know SVLUG already has its August and September meetings scheduled, but you might want to consider a SVLUG night at the movies to see REVOLUTION OS. The Austin LUGs did this, and it was a great success. I hope we cross paths at LinuxWorld. I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on the current state of Linux and the Open Source movement. I get asked about that frequently, but I only have an outsider's perspective. Thanks again for the help. Sincerely, J.T.S. Moore ----- End forwarded message ----- -- "A mouse is a device used to point at the xterm you want to type in" - A.S.R. Microsoft is to operating systems & security .... .... what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ | Finger marc_f@merlins.org for PGP key _______________________________________________ svlug mailing list svlug@lists.svlug.org http://lists.svlug.org/lists/listinfo/svlug ----- End forwarded message ----- _______________________________________________ vox mailing list vox@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox ----- End forwarded message ----- From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Aug 11 19:59:25 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17e5QT-0008UV-00 for ; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 19:59:25 -0700 Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 19:59:25 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20020812025925.GL25331@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] (forw) fsf fundraising party invite Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 744 Lines: 33 ----- Forwarded message from Christopher Reed ----- From: Christopher Reed Reply-To: reed@affero.com Organization: Affero To: installers@linuxmafia.com Subject: fsf fundraising party invite Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 19:32:29 -0700 Hi CABAL, I would like to invite you all to a fundraising pary we are having for the fsf on Wednesday the 14th of August during Linux World. Here is the invite to the Party. If you could please pass it on everyone in CABAL that would be great. http://www.affero.com/fsf Thanks - Chris -- Was I helpful? Let others know: http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=creed&p=schools ++++++++++++++++++++++ Office: 415 371 9900 reed@affero.com ----- End forwarded message ----- From rick@linuxmafia.com Fri Aug 16 22:09:46 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17fvqI-0002Kd-00; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 22:09:42 -0700 Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 22:09:42 -0700 To: Duncan MacKinnon Cc: N N , installers@linuxmafia.com, conspire@linuxmafia.com, mhigashi@digitalflock.org Message-ID: <20020817050942.GU9654@linuxmafia.com> Reply-To: installers@linuxmafia.com References: <20020815182140.90298.qmail@web10106.mail.yahoo.com> <20020816213216.GU14954@randometry.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020816213216.GU14954@randometry.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] Come TOMORROW! (was: Installfest dates??? Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1301 Lines: 32 Quoting Duncan MacKinnon (duncan@randometry.org): > We had tentatively planned one on the 24th of August but I will be out of > town and we need more volunteers than we had for that date. > I don't see one scheduled for that date on: > Argh. That's what I've told a couple of people would be the next date. However, since I just heard from Mike Higashi that he won't be able attend (ConJose staff meeting), and now I hear that you won't either, I think it's no-go until September. However, anyone wanting installation help _should_ attend the 11th anniversary Linux Picnic in Sunnyvale. It's _tomorrow_ (Saturday), and I'll be running the InstallFest there on behalf of SVLUG, EBLUG, CABAL, and LUGOD. http://www.linuxpicnic.org/ RSVP if you can, but show up anyway. I will have my installfest server, a LAN, and all of these BSD and Linux distributions and applications with me: http://linuxmafia.com/cabal/installfest/#distros -- "Is it not the beauty of an asynchronous form of discussion that one can go and make cups of tea, floss the cat, fluff the geraniums, open the kitchen window and scream out it with operatic force, volume, and decorum, and then return to the vexed glowing letters calmer of mind and soul?" -- The Cube, forum3000.org From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Aug 20 15:19:11 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17hHL9-00071w-00; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 15:19:07 -0700 Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 15:19:07 -0700 To: star@starshine.org Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com, installers@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20020820221906.GX9654@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] (forw) Install fest RSVP Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 965 Lines: 35 Heather, would you please disable mention on www.balug.org of the Aug. 24 instalfest? I'm being deluged in these. We will almost certainly have an installfest on Sept. 14 or 28 (2nd or 4th Saturday), but can't confirm that until RobAusCo posts dates past August at http://www.robertaustin.com/showdates.htm . ----- Forwarded message from Kari Mansour ----- Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 14:20:07 -0700 From: Kari Mansour Subject: Install fest RSVP To: installers@linuxmafia.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (Win98; I) Please count this as an RSVP. I will bring a Cobalt Qube3 and maybe an old 486 -- ********************* Kari Mansour ComforTech Consulting 408-202-8224 408-720-1549 dragoon@pacbell.net kari@comfortechconsuling.com www.comfortechconsulting.com We help you become comfortable and proficient in the use of your computer or computer network. ----- End forwarded message ----- From duncan@randometry.org Tue Aug 20 17:07:43 2002 Received: from adsl-63-192-8-228.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net ([63.192.8.228] helo=spin.randometry.org ident=mail) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17hJ2B-0002MI-00; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:07:39 -0700 Received: from duncan by spin.randometry.org with local (Exim 3.32 #1 (Debian)) id 17hIq3-0006qw-00; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 16:55:07 -0700 Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 16:55:07 -0700 To: Rick Moen Cc: star@starshine.org, conspire@linuxmafia.com, installers@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20020820235507.GX14954@randometry.org> References: <20020820221906.GX9654@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020820221906.GX9654@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: Duncan MacKinnon Subject: [conspire] Re: (forw) Install fest RSVP Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1191 Lines: 43 begin Rick Moen quotation: > Heather, would you please disable mention on www.balug.org of the Aug. > 24 instalfest? I'm being deluged in these. > > We will almost certainly have an installfest on Sept. 14 or 28 (2nd or > 4th Saturday), but can't confirm that until RobAusCo posts dates past > August at http://www.robertaustin.com/showdates.htm . Ahh, I'm heading out the door so sorry to be so brief. I will out of town for the 14th I'd like the 28th for me. Best, Duncan > > > ----- Forwarded message from Kari Mansour ----- > > Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 14:20:07 -0700 > From: Kari Mansour > Subject: Install fest RSVP > To: installers@linuxmafia.com > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (Win98; I) > > Please count this as an RSVP. I will bring a Cobalt Qube3 and maybe an > old 486 > > -- > ********************* > Kari Mansour > ComforTech Consulting > 408-202-8224 408-720-1549 > dragoon@pacbell.net > kari@comfortechconsuling.com > www.comfortechconsulting.com > > We help you become comfortable and proficient in the use of your > computer or computer network. > > > > ----- End forwarded message ----- From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Aug 21 14:44:59 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17hdHf-0001RW-00 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 14:44:59 -0700 Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 14:44:59 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20020821214459.GL9654@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: [conspire] (forw) REVOLUTION OS showtimes and directions Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 2087 Lines: 56 ----- Forwarded message from "J.T.S. Moore" ----- Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 14:35:01 -0700 From: "J.T.S. Moore" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 (Macintosh; U; PPC) To: rick@linuxmafia.com Subject: REVOLUTION OS showtimes and directions Rick, I know you are a key conduit of info for BALE and CABAL. I was wondering if you could do me a big favor and help me pass along information about the Silicon Valley opening of my documentary, REVOLUTION OS. I can't remember if you have actually seen the film, but you are referenced in it and during an Installfest you are on screen a couple of times. Anyway, it has been a real challenge to get REVOLUTION OS booked into an arthouse theatre in the Bay Area. None of the theatre bookers believed there was much of an audience for a film about Linux and Open Source. I hope they are wrong. Luckily, after months and months of lobbying, Camera Cinemas has agreed to play the film. REVOLUTION OS will open this Friday at Camera's Towne 3 Theatre in San Jose. Below are the directions and showtimes for REVOLUTION OS: REVOLUTION OS will open this Friday, August 23, at Camera Cinemas Towne 3 Theatre located at 1433 The Alameda in San Jose about a mile south of 880. The showtimes are: 5:10 PM 7:15 PM 9:20 PM. On Saturday and Sunday there will be a matinee at 3:05 PM. If the film has a good opening weekend, Camera Cinemas said they will keep playing it for another week. For more info about the Towne 3 Theatre you can call (408) 287-1433. The Yahoo map for the Towne 3 Theatre is: http://maps.yahoo.com/py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap&addr=1433+The+Alameda&city=San+Jose&state=CA&csz=San+Jose,+CA+95126-2653&slt=37.333357&sln=-121.914240&name=&zip=95126-2653&country=us&&BFKey=&BFCat=&BFClient=&mag=9&desc=&cs=9&newmag=8&poititle=&poi=&ds=n I appreciate any help you can give me in notifying the Open Source faithful. In case anyone asks, the DVD should be available at the end of September. Thanks again. Sincerely, J.T.S. Moore Director, REVOLUTION OS ----- End forwarded message ----- From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Aug 22 01:10:20 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17hn2q-0001Te-00 for ; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 01:10:20 -0700 Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 01:10:20 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20020822081020.GU9654@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] Red Hat "null" beta (7.3.94) available at CABAL meetings Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 3380 Lines: 71 As some of you folks know, I finally got around to pulling my CDR burner out of its plastic bag and getting it running. It was mounted in my K6 tower at the recent Linux11 picnic in Sunnyvale, such that I was able to burn CDs for people. I've just downloaded the Red Hat pre-7.4 beta released a few days ago, and will have it at the CABAL meeting on Saturday in Menlo Park. Feel free to bring machine you want to try it on. If you'd like a copy burned for you, bring blank CDRs -- or money to bribe me with. ;-> Here's the collection we'll have on hand (http://linuxmafia.com/cabal/installfest/#distros): * Apple Darwin (BSD) v. 1.4.1 for i386, v. 1.3.1 for PPC * Borland Kylix Open Edition 2.0 for i386 Linux * Conectiva Linux 8.0 (4 disks) for i386 * Corel Linux 1.2 AKA "second edition" for i386 * Corel WordPerfect 8.0 Download Personal Edition for i386 Linux * CRUX 0.9.3 for i386 * Debian Official "woody" 3.0r0 for i386 (7 disks) * Debian "woody" 3.0 w/Progeny Graphical Installer for i386 * Debian Official "potato" 2.2r3 for PPC (1 disk) and SPARC (3 disks) * Debian Official "woody" 3.0r0 for DEC Alpha (7 disks) * Debian Unofficial "woody" pre-3.0 2001-12-27 netinst for i386 and PPC * DemoLinux 3.0 for i386 * EasyLinux 1.2 for i386 (2 disks) * FreeBSD 4.6.1rc2 "stable" for i386 * FreeBSD 5.0 "current" 2001-08 snapshot (6 disks) for i386 * Gentoo Linux 1.2 for i686 * Knoppix 3.1 for i386 * Libranet 2.0 "essentials disk" for i386 * Linuxcare Bootable Toolbox 2.0 for i386 * Linux-Mandrake 8.2 (3 disks) for i586 * LinuxPPC "2000 / MacWorld CD" for PPC * LNX-BBC 1.618 for i386 * Lunar Linux 20020503 for i386 * Lycoris Desktop/LX build 44 (3 disks) for i386 * MkLinux pre-R1 (2nd image) for PPC * Microsoft NetShow 2.00 build 2.51 for i386 Linux * NetBSD 1.5.2 for alpha, i386, macppc, pmax, sparc, vax, sparc64, sun3. * NetBSD 1.5.2 for amiga, arc, arm32, atari, cobalt, hp300, hpcmips, mac68k, mvme68k, news68k, next68k, pc532 * OpenBSD 3.0 (3 disks) for i386 * OpenOffice.org 1.0.0 for i386 Linux and pre-6.0 alpha build 641c for PPC Linux * Progeny 1.0 (2 disks) for i386 * Red Hat 7.3 (3 disks) and 7.1 & 7.2 (2 disks each) for i386 * Red Hat 7.3.94 beta code named "null" (5 disks) for i386 * Simply GNUStep Stage 2 pre1 for i386 * Slackware 8.1 for i386 * Stampede Linux 0.90 beta "happy valley" for i586 * Storm Linux 2.0.6 for i386 * Sorcerer GNU Linux 2002-05-17 for i386 * SOT Office 2002 for i386 Linux * Source Mage 20020323 and 20020527beta for i386 * Sun Star Office 5.2 for i386 Linux * SuSE Linux "evaluation" 7.0 for i386, 6.3 for PPC * SuSE Linux "live evaluation" (demo disk) 8.0 for i386 * Turbo Linux Server 8.0 "viper" (2 disks) for i386 * Turbo Linux Workstation (English) 6.1 for i386 * Vermillion 7.1.1 (2 disks) and 6.2.4 for i386 * Yellow Dog 2.3 for PPC I have dhcp services set up (finally). Yay! -- "Is it not the beauty of an asynchronous form of discussion that one can go and make cups of tea, floss the cat, fluff the geraniums, open the kitchen window and scream out it with operatic force, volume, and decorum, and then return to the vexed glowing letters calmer of mind and soul?" -- The Cube, forum3000.org From star@starshine.org Thu Aug 22 22:23:43 2002 Received: from antares.starshine.org ([216.240.40.177] helo=antares.in.starshine.org ident=postfix) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17i6v8-0004yn-00; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 22:23:43 -0700 Received: from gemini.starshine.org (gemini.starshine.org [216.240.40.169]) by antares.in.starshine.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB720397D; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 18:07:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gemini.starshine.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id C875A140A8; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 22:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 22:26:40 -0700 To: Rick Moen Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com, installers@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20020823052640.GB7643@starshine.org> References: <20020820221906.GX9654@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020820221906.GX9654@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: star@starshine.org (Heather Stern) Subject: [conspire] Re: (forw) Install fest RSVP Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1464 Lines: 47 On Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 03:19:07PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: > Heather, would you please disable mention on www.balug.org of the Aug. > 24 instalfest? I'm being deluged in these. Done. Also updated the date on the index and meetNow pages, though we want to confirm the speaker before naming names. > We will almost certainly have an installfest on Sept. 14 or 28 (2nd or > 4th Saturday), but can't confirm that until RobAusCo posts dates past > August at http://www.robertaustin.com/showdates.htm . Well, let me know as soon as you're sure. If it's on the earlier one I may be able to convince some techie trekkies to come and play UI games for people. . | . Heather Stern --->*<--- Starshine Technical Services ' | ` BALUG Webmaster > ----- Forwarded message from Kari Mansour ----- > > Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 14:20:07 -0700 > From: Kari Mansour > Subject: Install fest RSVP > To: installers@linuxmafia.com > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (Win98; I) > > Please count this as an RSVP. I will bring a Cobalt Qube3 and maybe an > old 486 > > -- > ********************* > Kari Mansour > ComforTech Consulting > 408-202-8224 408-720-1549 > dragoon@pacbell.net > kari@comfortechconsuling.com > www.comfortechconsulting.com > > We help you become comfortable and proficient in the use of your > computer or computer network. > > > > ----- End forwarded message ----- From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Aug 28 21:29:22 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17kGvq-0005Ew-00 for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 21:29:22 -0700 Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 21:29:22 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20020829042922.GS12787@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: [conspire] (forw) REVOLUTION OS held over, new showtimes Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1340 Lines: 38 ----- Forwarded message from "J.T.S. Moore" ----- Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 14:39:57 -0700 From: "J.T.S. Moore" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 (Macintosh; U; PPC) To: Rick Moen Subject: REVOLUTION OS held over, new showtimes Rick, Thank you for notifying BALE about REVOLUTION OS, and for attending Sunday's show. As it turns out, REVOLUTION OS was the number one grossing film at the Towne 3 Theatre this weekend. So Camera Cinemas is extending the run of REVOLUTION OS for at least another week. >From Friday, August 30, through Thursday, September 5, the new showtimes at the Towne 3 will be: 5:30 PM and 9:35 PM. For more info about the Towne 3 Theatre you can call (408) 287-1433. The Yahoo map for the Towne 3 Theatre is: http://maps.yahoo.com/py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap&addr=1433+The+Alameda&city=San+Jose&state=CA&csz=San+Jose,+CA+95126-2653&slt=37.333357&sln=-121.914240&name=&zip=95126-2653&country=us&&BFKey=&BFCat=&BFClient=&mag=9&desc=&cs=9&newmag=8&poititle=&poi=&ds=n If you could post this e-mail to BALE and CABAL, I would greatly appreciate it. In case anyone asks, the special edition DVD should be available at the end of September. Thank you again for your help. Sincerely, J.T.S. Moore Director, REVOLUTION OS ----- End forwarded message ----- From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Sep 26 02:04:32 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17uUZT-0004yL-00; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 02:04:31 -0700 Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 02:04:30 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20020926090430.GS24880@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] CABAL News -- Sat. Sept 28 Installfest and meeting Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 8689 Lines: 214 CABAL News, Thursday, Sept. 26, 2002 ------------------------------------ 1. BALE renovation. My Bay Area Linux Events calendar page (http://linuxmafia.com/bale/) needed an overhaul: The big problem wasn't its haphazard layout, but rather that I maintained it 100% manually in vi, editing raw HTML. I've just finally moved it over to a PHP4-generated page, pulling "event" data from a MySQL database. I haven't properly repopulated the latter yet, and haven't yet enabled the code to automatically add repeating events, auto-extending the calendar three months out. But soon it'll be a _lot_ better. I'll need to catch up on some of the groups' changes: Smaug moved its meetings one hour earlier, SF OpenBSD UG has changed days, SacLUG and LUGOD have changed meeting locations. Silicon Valley Perl UG seems as if it may have died. 2. Installfest and CABAL meeting. _This_ Saturday, 10-4, we'll have another Linux / BSD installfest at the Robert Austin Show inside the Oakland Convention Center. Join us as event staff, and you can get into the RobAusCo (which is a big indoor fleamarket for new hardware/software goods). Details: http://linuxmafia.com/cabal/installfest/ You don't have to need help. You're welcome to just come and hang out, and chat. _Or_ you can come to the regular 4th-Saturday CABAL meeting afterwards, starting 6 PM in Menlo Park. We'll probably run the BBQ, as usual. CABAL meetings are relaxed and comfortable compared to the RobAusCo installfests, and you're _still_ welcome to bring your machines along and work on them or install your choice of Linux distributions on them. (About which, please see item #4, below.) 3. _Last_ Foothill College Electronics Fleamarket of the year For even lower-priced gear including some incredible bargains, there's the Foothill College swap in Los Altos, http://www.electronicsfleamarket.com/ . Because it's outdoors in the Foothill College parking lot, it can't be held during the rainy season, so it runs April through October -- every month on the 2nd Saturday. Therefore, the LAST swap of 2002 will be the next one, October 12. Come extremely early for the best bargains. Particularly determined shoppers actually show up as early as 4 AM, bearing flashlights. 4. New Linux Distributions As many of you know, I keep a pretty large range of Linux and BSD distributions around in CD-ROM form, and will gladly duplicate them for people. (_You_ bring blank CDs to write to, and you get to supervise the CD-burner machine and label your disks.) The full list of available offerings is at http://linuxmafia.com/cabal/installfest/#distros The Linux world has been very busy with new distribution versions. Here are a few: Linux-Mandrake 9.0 Out less than a day -- and I just now retrieved the last of its three disks, and verified their integrity. I'm burning a set for my collection, right this minute. Mandrake is one of the candy-store desktop-oriented distributions. Lots of people seem to like it. GNOME 2.0.2, KDE 3.0.3, Mozilla 1.1(!), OpenOffice.org 1.0.1, kernel 2.4.19, etc. Compiler is GCC 3.2. Printing subsystem is CUPS. All the plug-and-play hardware detection that they can manage. One local mirror that's not so far hammered: http://sluglug.ucsc.edu/pub/Mandrake/iso/ Red Hat 8.0 It's been propagating out to all the mirror sites, for the last couple of days -- but won't be opened up to the public until next Monday. You won't be able to get a copy before then without inside help -- sorry. (If you're in a big hurry, you can get the preceding 7.3.94 beta, but should probably wait.) SuSE 8.1 beta (sort of) Although you can't yet get SuSE beyond 7.0 free of charge in ISO form, it turns out that UnitedLinux beta3 is very strongly based on SuSE 8.1 betas, right down to using YaST2, KDE3, and GNOME2 -- presumably because SuSE engineers did most of the work. http://download.unitedlinux.com/cgi-bin/reg.pl Word seems to have gotten out; the ftp server is hammered. But this is basically getting a slightly sparse two-CD SuSE 8.1 prerelease for free. (Disc 3 is source code only.) However, less hammered is SCO Linux (formerly Caldera OpenLinux) 4.0 beta, which turns out to be exactly the same thing -- UnitedLinux beta3. http://www.sco.com/products/beta/ If you're getting SuSE the orthodox way, and don't want a boxed set: ftp://ftp.suse.com/pub/suse/i386/evaluation-7.0/evaluation-7.0.iso Single-CD download version, several revs behind the boxed sets. Complete distro, despite its filename. SuSE is a very nice "desktop" distribution, but their 7.0 "eval" has frustratingly trailing-edge versions and is of course only a single CD. This is no accident: You're supposed to be motivated to buy one of the incredibly full-featured boxed sets (Personal or Professional editions). Which is fair, I guess -- but the UnitedLinux CDs are an intriguing way to attempt a kind of end-run. Lycoris beta For the adventuresome, there's a new Lycoris beta (build 51) ftp://ftp.stealth.net/pub/mirrors/ftp.lycoris.com/beta/ Current release is still build 46. Lycorix Desktop/LX is one of the leading "desktop" distibutions, and was formerly named Redmond Linux. Libranet Desktop-oriented distribution (i386-only) w/simple, friendly installer. Publisher is in Vancouver. Based on & compatible w/Debian 3.0. Available either in a boxed set of v. 2.7 with e-mail support and 2 CDs, or as (cheaper) download of the v. 2.7 ISOs, or as free downloadable ISO of v. 2.0's 1st CD. I recommend the latter: ftp://ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/distributions/libranet/2.0/libranet-2.0-essential.iso A few weeks ago, I was lucky enough to grab the two-ISO 2.7 beta, which subsequently seems to have been pulled from the Net. Sorry, guys; you have to move quickly. ;-> I _am_ glad to make copies. If people really want, I can put the ISOs up somewhere. Additions to Libranet 2.7's Debian 3.0 base: Installer (ncurses-type). Graphical administrative tools. RealPlayer & Flash, Netscape Communicator, Opera 6.0. Installs w/kernel 2.4.19. GNOME 2.0.1, KDE 3.0.3, XFree86 4.2. Improved hardware autodetection (incl. sound, USB, printers, Zip drives). (Libranet 2.0 has most of that, just older revs.) I _highly_ recommend Libranet as a desktop distribution: Easy installer, all the goodies, everything up to date. _And_ it's compatible with Debian so you can _keep_ it current and secure without going crazy. What's not to like? CRUX 0.94 Heard about the BSDs, their relative simplicity, and their "ports" system for installing software? Here's a distributions that does all of that on Linux, instead. http://www.crux.nu/ It's 686-optimised, lightweight, simple. It has quite modern everything, but no bloat whatsoever. Vermillion Many of us who've used Red Hat Linux for years have gotten fed up with certain quality-control problems. The late, lamented VA Linux software division did something about it: a RH-variant distribution called RH-VALE (Red Hat with VA Linux Enhancements). RH-VALE was generally a more-reliable Red Hat, with a better set of drivers in its installer and fixes in any number of areas. Often, I've used RH-VALE successfully on machines where RH's standard installer can't even deal with the hardware at all. After leaving VA Linux (which, alas, has devolved into a proprietary sofwtare firm), Michael E. Jennings decided he wasn't going to allow RH-VALE to die. So, with the help of some others, he's continuing to maintain it -- as Vermillion. http://www.kainx.org/vermillion/ I'm right now pulling down his variant form of RH 7.3, which he's calling Vermillion 7.3.1 alpha9. (Michael's alphas are generally of _very_ high quality. He just uses the term to make you understand he's not promising it'll work, as he's not done with developing it.) I already have on hand his take on RH 7.1, Vermillion 7.1.1 -- and also one or two earlier RH-VALE releases, which probably are too old. LindowsOS Mentioned in order to stress that it's specfically DISRECOMMENDED: Lindows.com's LindowsOS distribution defaults to auto-login using the root account. Argh. That's just clueless and a willful disservice to the company's customers. You'll never see this thing in my collection, unless/until this ghastly design error is reversed. 'Hope to see you folks on Saturday! -- Cheers, "Don't use Outlook. Outlook is really just a security Rick Moen hole with a small e-mail client attached to it." rick@linuxmafia.com -- Brian Trosko in r.a.sf.w.r-j From rick@linuxmafia.com Fri Sep 27 13:53:07 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17v26k-0004Ca-00 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 13:53:06 -0700 Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 13:53:06 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20020927205306.GO19163@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] Installfest follow-up Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 276 Lines: 6 I forgot to mention that the Robert Austin Company, which runs the computer shows at which we have installfests, charges $8 admission at the door, _but_ you can get around that if you get a coupon mailed to you from a Web form on their site: http://www.robertaustin.com/ From zambonigrill@yahoo.com Tue Oct 08 11:32:35 2002 Received: from web21308.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.128.174]) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 17yz9c-00063K-00 for ; Tue, 08 Oct 2002 11:32:26 -0700 Message-ID: <20021008182837.20607.qmail@web21308.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [32.97.110.76] by web21308.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 08 Oct 2002 11:28:37 PDT Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 11:28:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Koki Zamboni To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [conspire] Cultured Perl: Genetic algorithms, the next generation Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 987 Lines: 26 Cultured Perl: Genetic algorithms, the next generation Looking for advanced examples of genetic algorithms with Perl? This article focuses on advanced material on genetic algorithms in Perl. Genetic algorithms have well-defined steps, and some of the code here draws upon code in the previous article without explaining the details. Before you begin, you should have Perl 5.6.0 or later installed on your system. The examples might work with earlier versions of Perl and on platforms other than the common UNIX ones (such as Windows), but they have not been tested in those environments, and it might take extra work to get them running. This article - http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-genperl2/?t=gr,lnxu03=nextgen Previous article - http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-genperl/?t=gr,lnxu03=genperl __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Oct 08 11:44:59 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 17yzLb-0007W4-00 for ; Tue, 08 Oct 2002 11:44:47 -0700 Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 11:44:38 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Cultured Perl: Genetic algorithms, the next generation Message-ID: <20021008184438.GT11235@linuxmafia.com> References: <20021008182837.20607.qmail@web21308.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021008182837.20607.qmail@web21308.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 762 Lines: 18 Quoting Koki Zamboni (zambonigrill@yahoo.com): > Cultured Perl: Genetic algorithms, the next generation This is a spammer who, acting on behalf of IBM, goes around posting these ads for Developerworks contents to Linux user groups mailing lists and newsgroups all around the world. He/she changes sending addresses frequently as they're locked out, but it's always a Yahoo address. Accordingly, I'm temporarily specified that all mail from *.yahoo.com will be held for approval (which I ordinarily do very quickly). Apologies to all the legitimate list-members who use Yahoo Mail. -- Cheers, There are only 10 types of people in this world -- Rick Moen those who understand binary arithmetic and those who don't. rick@linuxmafia.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Oct 10 14:56:10 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 17zlHu-0001RH-00 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 14:56:10 -0700 Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 14:56:10 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20021010215610.GA32371@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: [conspire] A satisfactory end to the developerWorks problem Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 4812 Lines: 102 Mr. Michael O'Connell is editor-in-chief of IBM's developerWorks Web site. I won't forward his explanation (because it was private mail), but here's my reply. Among O'Connell's points was that the developerWorks representative used changing Yahoo addresses not to hide or to conceal the IBM affiliation, but rather to avoid having ibm.com itself overwhelmed by spam(!) He says they'll find better ways to verify that announcements will be welcome before broadcasting them to mailing lists and newsgroups. (Accordingly, I've removed *.yahoo.com from the "hold posts for listowner approval" list.) ----- Forwarded message from Rick Moen ----- Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 14:48:41 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: Michael O'Connell Subject: Re: Spam mail advertising DeveloperWorks being sent to Linux user groups' mailing lists Dear Mr. O'Connell: Thank you for your reply. There are indeed ironies to be found, and my calling the postings "spam" was regrettably a bit polemical. In part because of the pervasive problem of (actual) spam, unmoderated mailing lists have increasingly switched to holding for approval any post from a non-subscriber. Your dW representative's posts thus tend to require manual handling by listadmins -- which alone does not endear him/her. As you'll have noticed, my Linux group's mailing list is very low-traffic and local in focus. Many others are like that, too -- with a deliberate attempt to keep their S/N high. Such lists are easily swamped and functionally destroyed by "announcement" posts from people not involved with the sponsoring group -- and such has in fact happened, repeatedly. That experience is another reason for the widespread shift to holding mail from non-subscribers: It's like having your bridge match interrupted by strangers entering your living room to bellow out public service announcments. (As an aside, the notion that the dW posts weren't "commercial" because they aren't selling anything is a bit thin: If International Business Machines has stopped being commercial, I'm going to have to sell my stock.) Then, too, most of us already follow developerWorks. Even if we don't, we nonetheless have digest mechanisms like LinuxToday.com, lwn.net, and comp.os.linux.announce to call our attention to articles, events, and software releases of interest. Relevant to that, and as a point of information, I've seen each posting from your dW representative repeated about twelve times, once on each of various technical mailing lists. You may think of them as individual, handcrafted messages to reach various on-line communities, but, because of those communities' interconnectedness, the effect is rather different. I also have a suggestion: All you really need to do is create a broadcast-type "developerworks-announce" mailing list. (By "broadcast-type", I mean a list to which only the listowner or designated insiders would be able to post. Other recipients would be unable to reply on-list.) Not only would individuals be then able to receive announcements if they so chose, but also so would Linux community mailing lists. That is, for example, if I as listowner of CABAL's mailing list wanted to ensure that our members received all such announcements, I would need only to subscribe my mailing list to "developerworks-announce". I quite sympathize with IBM's dilemma as to how best to filter incoming spam. Perhaps the most practical solution would be interpose a Unix host (Linux, AIX, or whatever suits your IT staff) as a mail forwarder prior to Lotus Notes receiving the mail, and use either SpamAssassin with Vipul's Razor or Bogofilter to attempt to trap unwanted mail. There is one non-technical obstacle to such remedies, which I know from bitter experience in decades of IT work: Spam tends to become a corporate political football. Some corporate staff will reflexively suspect any filtering of incoming mail, and never be satisfied that mail _they_ want/need isn't being discarded. This is why IT departments tend to shy sideways from the problem, rather than meet it head-on. In light of that obstacle, one workaround is to have SpamAssassin or Bogofilter merely mark inbound mail (e.g., insert "X-Spam-Status" headers) and pass it through: The user can then, at his option, either quarantine suspect mail or discard it, by using the filtering abilities of his user mail agent (e.g., the Lotus Notes client). Or do nothing with it at all -- or even autoremove the markings, if he so wishes. Relevant URLs: http://spamassassin.org/ SpamAssassin http://razor.sourceforge.net/ Vipul's Razor http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/bogofilter/ Bogofilter I hope this is of use to you. Best Regards, Rick Moen ----- End forwarded message ----- From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Oct 10 17:21:15 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 17znYJ-00059Y-00 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 17:21:15 -0700 Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 17:21:15 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20021011002115.GK32418@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] CABAL meeting this Saturday cancelled Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 331 Lines: 10 Deirdre and I are going to be out of town on Saturday. (We'll be attending Linux Journal editor Don Marti's wedding in the L.A. area.) So, unfortunately, no CABAL meeting on Saturday the 12th. Sorry. -- Cheers, Rick Moen FORTH heart if honk then. rick@linuxmafia.com From mhigashi@myrddin.imat.com Thu Oct 10 21:36:18 2002 Received: from adsl-207-214-84-142.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net ([207.214.84.142] helo=myrddin.imat.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 17zrX7-00019x-00 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 21:36:17 -0700 Received: (from mhigashi@localhost) by myrddin.imat.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g9B4Qg404714 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 21:26:42 -0700 Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 21:26:41 -0700 From: Mike Higashi To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] CABAL meeting this Saturday cancelled Message-ID: <20021010212641.A4661@myrddin.imat.com> References: <20021011002115.GK32418@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021011002115.GK32418@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.21i Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 329 Lines: 9 On Thu, Oct 10, 2002 at 05:21:15PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: > Deirdre and I are going to be out of town on Saturday. (We'll be > attending Linux Journal editor Don Marti's wedding in the L.A. area.) > So, unfortunately, no CABAL meeting on Saturday the 12th. Sorry. Congrats to Don! The chickmagnet magic strikes again? Mike From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Oct 10 21:41:19 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 17zrbz-0001Bl-00 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 21:41:19 -0700 Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 21:41:19 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] CABAL meeting this Saturday cancelled Message-ID: <20021011044119.GR32418@linuxmafia.com> References: <20021011002115.GK32418@linuxmafia.com> <20021010212641.A4661@myrddin.imat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021010212641.A4661@myrddin.imat.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 355 Lines: 12 Quoting Mike Higashi (mhigashi@imat.com): > Congrats to Don! The chickmagnet magic strikes again? I think so. Tabinda fell into the babe-o-magnetic field, and it was all over. -- Cheers, There are only 10 types of people in this world -- Rick Moen those who understand binary arithmetic and those who don't. rick@linuxmafia.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Fri Oct 18 23:09:47 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 182mnz-0005UF-00 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 2002 23:09:47 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 23:09:46 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20021019060946.GK8904@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] Resizing NTFS Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 2920 Lines: 69 Lots of people come to Linux events with their MS-Windows preloads, wanting us to set up dual-boot. Which we've been able to do, thanks to resizer utilities like FIPS, GNU Parted, etc. Recently, Microsoft has thrown a curveball at us: Recent preloads have tended to use NTFS filesystems, rather than FAT. Most resizing tools -- and all of the common open-source ones -- are FAT-only. This is starting to become a significant roadblock. After much checking, I've found the following options: -- four proprietary tools that are retail-only. -- one proprietary tool that's lawfully redistributable and 30-day shareware. -- one open-source tool. They are detailed below. 1. Retail-only, proprietary: o PowerQuest Corp.'s Partition Magic: $80, retail / pay first o Paragon Software's Partition Manager: $40, retail / pay first o Acronis OS Selector: $45, trial version avail., but it's crippled. o V-Communications's System Commander 7: $70, retail / pay first 2. Redistributable (by individuals who don't charge), 30-day trial: o TeraByte Unlimited's BootIt Next Generation: $29.95 "shareware", 30 day trial http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/downloads/ . Also reportedly on Simtel sites. Also on my machine, at http://linuxmafia.com/pub/hardware/ , as bootit-ng-1.32a.zip . Included is a diskette image. You make the image, then boot it. (Decline its offer to "install".) 3. Open source: o The ntfs-progs utilities collection from Anton Altaparmakov's Linux NTFS Utilities effort, http://linux-ntfs.sourceforge.net/ includes a prerelease "ntfsresize" utility, roughly similar to FIPS. RECOMMENDATIONS: ntfsresize may be dangerously buggy. Beware! I had to pull down developer source code from http://linux-ntfs.bkbits.net/ (BitKeeper repository), then hand-hack a Makefile just to make ntfsresize be included in the compile process. That isn't reassuring. http://linuxmafia.com/pub/hardware/ carries two versions of the source tarball, with and without my i386 Linux binaries: ntfs-progs-post1.6.0-20021018-i386compiled.tar.gz ntfs-progs-post1.6.0-20021018.tar.gz I recommend that Linux activists keep copies of _both_ BootIt NG (the shareware toolkit) and the open-source ntfs-progs tools around to use on preloads. I further urge that you give copies of BootIt NG to end-users _only_ if they hand you a $29.95 cheque made out to TeraByte Unlimited for the shareware fee. Why? Because open source isn't about being too cheap to buy proprietary software. And it _certainly_ isn't about ripping off proprietary software authors. If people object to paying, they can try their luck with ntfsresize, or pony up $40 or more for one of the boxed-set retail alternatives. -- Cheers, "Azathoth need not be present to win." Rick Moen -- Charles O. Baucum, Jr. rick@linuxmafia.com From star@starshine.org Sat Oct 19 18:38:05 2002 Received: from antares.starshine.org ([216.240.40.177] helo=antares.in.starshine.org ident=postfix) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18352a-0006CC-00; Sat, 19 Oct 2002 18:38:04 -0700 Received: from gemini.starshine.org (gemini.starshine.org [216.240.40.169]) by antares.in.starshine.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51AF73986; Sat, 19 Oct 2002 14:17:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gemini.starshine.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A9C46140BD; Sat, 19 Oct 2002 19:28:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 19:28:35 -0700 To: Rick Moen Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Resizing NTFS Message-ID: <20021020022835.GB6872@starshine.org> References: <20021019060946.GK8904@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021019060946.GK8904@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: star@starshine.org (Heather Stern) Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 4385 Lines: 102 [Snipping the proprietary solutions as well-known and unplatable] I think it's worth noting, Rick, that not a single one of these is guaranteed not to break you ... ...warrantied, maybe, for the commercial stuff, but guaranteed, hell no. So *my* first question wouldn't be "are you a cheapskate or big opensource fan" ... it'd be "did you make a backup so you won't weep and wail if your system hates what we try?" If they answer "no, but I installed a second hard disk we can have fun with" I'll let 'em get away with that, but remember to be extra-careful during the install sequence, because the defaults might be unfriendly. Also to -explain- that /dev/hda and /dev/hdc stuff. The rest of this is roughly a Shareware-Advocacy HOWTO, with this case as a specific example. Q. Should I pay this shareware fee, or can I just run off with the goodies? A. If you're sure that they're "goodies" you've probably already answered this for yourself ... pay up. Q. How can I tell the software is worth anything to me at all? A. Try it. If it doesn't have your computer over for tea and send you back a Mogwai that's been allowed to eat after midnight, it's probably worth it. But the real question is about value. Did it save you enough time to be worth the value this guy is charging? For an example see below. > 2. Redistributable (by individuals who don't charge), 30-day trial: > o TeraByte Unlimited's BootIt Next Generation: $29.95 "shareware", > 30 day trial > http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/downloads/ . ::> Simtel... ::> ... http://linuxmafia.com/pub/hardware/ , as bootit-ng-1.32a.zip . > ...You make the [diskette] image, then boot... (Decline... "install".) ::> ...recommend letting people use it when they offer you a $29.95 ::> check out to TeraByte Unlimited... Good plan. I'd make 'em cough up their own floppy too. To those who want to skimp and say it's not worth a lot, I'd say at minimum wage that's about 6 hours of headache. Most people have a better opinion of what their personal time is worth than that - even if unemployed. So is MS and/or your vendor going to be 3 hours worth of helpful to you "splitting" your C: into C: and D: so we can get on with this? Frankly -- no, probably not. Even less so if your vendor is one of the Borg who ships a "rescue" disc only good for re-assimilating your drive back to its as-shipped state, instead of a real copy of MSwin. > 3. Open source: > > o The ntfs-progs utilities collection from Anton Altaparmakov's > Linux NTFS Utilities effort, http://linux-ntfs.sourceforge.net/ > includes a prerelease "ntfsresize" utility, roughly similar to FIPS. ::> ...dangerously buggy ... had to play developer tricks to make it ::> compile at all... > http://linuxmafia.com/pub/hardware/ carries two versions of the source > tarball, with and without my i386 Linux binaries: > > ntfs-progs-post1.6.0-20021018-i386compiled.tar.gz > ntfs-progs-post1.6.0-20021018.tar.gz If you've already confirmed that they've made their backup, then they can also breathe easier about trying touchy software like this. pat answer for Q. why is all the linux NTFS support so wimpy? A. Frankly, not many people use it... If anyone who does finds no bugs then they don't need to change anything... and many who do just bail and use other tricks to deal with it rather than properly beat down the bugs. It's a critical-mass thing. > Why? Because open source isn't about being too cheap to buy > proprietary software. And it _certainly_ isn't about ripping > off proprietary software authors. I consider badmouthing open source folk who are actually keeping their code maintained to be "ripping them off" too. If they asked for no more pay than respect, respect is what they ought to get paid. If they kind of respect someone wants to get paid is cash on the barrelhead, and the product is worth the respect (that is, it saves me more time than it'd cost me) ... then by all means, I say pay up. AT least until you can code it yourself... then you can grumble at each other in LKML or other applicable mailing lists :) . | . Heather Stern | star@starshine.org --->*<--- Starshine Technical Services - * - consulting@starshine.org ' | ` Sysadmin Support and Training | (800) 938-4078 From rick@linuxmafia.com Sat Oct 19 19:58:46 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1836If-000141-00 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 2002 19:58:45 -0700 Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 19:58:45 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Resizing NTFS Message-ID: <20021020025845.GE19330@linuxmafia.com> References: <20021019060946.GK8904@linuxmafia.com> <20021020022835.GB6872@starshine.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021020022835.GB6872@starshine.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 2648 Lines: 56 Quoting Heather Stern (star@starshine.org): > I think it's worth noting, Rick, that not a single one of these is > guaranteed not to break you ... Quite. I'm frankly astonished that people are willing to use "non-destructive" repartitioners at all, let alone when they don't have tested, good backups and the ability to reinstall their OSes and all applications. On the flip side, if people _do_ have those abilities, then I could argue that they'd be better off using them: That is, back up everything, blow away the filesystem(s), reinstall the OS on different-sized filesystems, and put everything back. For that reason, I recommend specifically _against_ the entire category "non-destructive" repartitioners: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/#partition But people want to use them anyway -- especially the hapless non-technical users who drop in on us and expect us to perform miracles. So, at a minimum, I always make sure they know that what they're doing risks their data, and it's their headache if something goes wrong. > The rest of this is roughly a Shareware-Advocacy HOWTO, with this case > as a specific example. > > Q. Should I pay this shareware fee, or can I just run off with the goodies? > A. If you're sure that they're "goodies" you've probably already > answered this for yourself ... pay up. > > Q. How can I tell the software is worth anything to me at all? > A. Try it. If it doesn't have your computer over for tea and send > you back a Mogwai that's been allowed to eat after midnight, it's > probably worth it. > > But the real question is about value. Did it save you enough time > to be worth the value this guy is charging? For an example see > below. In the case of BootIt NG, I'm not _personally_ willing to guarantee that it does anything at all: I didn't write it, have no business relationship with any of the parties, and don't know a thing about it. I don't even have an NTFS volume around to test it on. But anyone who wants _me_ to give him a copy has to fork over that $29.95 cheque payable to Terabyte Unlimited. If they don't like those terms, no problem -- but also no disk. My having made this clear on several mailing lists has garnered me some pretty transrational responses. Surprising, really. Thank you for your comments. -- "Is it not the beauty of an asynchronous form of discussion that one can go and make cups of tea, floss the cat, fluff the geraniums, open the kitchen window and scream out it with operatic force, volume, and decorum, and then return to the vexed glowing letters calmer of mind and soul?" -- The Cube, forum3000.org From aludal@softhome.net Sat Oct 19 20:20:26 2002 Received: from jive.softhome.net ([66.54.152.27]) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1836de-0004Ad-00 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 2002 20:20:26 -0700 Received: (qmail 2142 invoked by uid 417); 20 Oct 2002 03:16:04 -0000 Received: from shunt-smtp-out-0 (HELO softhome.net) (172.16.3.12) by shunt-smtp-out-0 with SMTP; 20 Oct 2002 03:16:04 -0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([65.147.86.227]) (AUTH: PLAIN aludal@softhome.net) by softhome.net with esmtp; Sat, 19 Oct 2002 21:16:03 -0600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: aludal Organization: likeItoldya To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 20:25:06 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200210192025.06685.aludal@softhome.net> Subject: [conspire] on partition tools Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 388 Lines: 14 Hi there, It's me -- Sasha, Just out of Surplus Computer shop -- and they have Partition Magic 6.0 =20 @US$29.00 + CAsalestax. Bought me Webpal internet appliance there for mer= e=20 $19.95, to penguinize it next week or so. Well, I don't need Partition=20 Magic. Nobody does who is capable to read good Rick's English on Linux=20 partions/installations. -- Arbeit macht frei. -- AU From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Oct 20 00:25:27 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 183ASl-0000I6-00 for ; Sun, 20 Oct 2002 00:25:27 -0700 Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 00:25:27 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] on partition tools Message-ID: <20021020072527.GI19330@linuxmafia.com> References: <200210192025.06685.aludal@softhome.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200210192025.06685.aludal@softhome.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 897 Lines: 21 Quoting aludal (aludal@softhome.net): > Just out of Surplus Computer shop -- and they have Partition Magic 6.0 > @US$29.00 + CAsalestax. Here's a rather strange and ironic thing: This evening, as I was out finding a few more Web server daemons to add to the list at http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/#djb , I found that one of the authors' personal pages had a hyperlink for "partition-magic-6.img". I was curious, so I pulled it down: 1.44 MB file, yep. Mounted it as a loop device: Hmm! It's an MS-DOS 6.22 boot floppy that mounts a RAMdisk and then unpacks Partition Magic v. 6 into the latter. Whee! I get to violate the copyrights of both Microsoft Corporation and PowerQuest Corp., if I wish. Ah, temptation. -- Cheers, Yes, I _am_ an agent of Satan, Rick Moen but my duties are largely ceremonial. rick@linuxmafia.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Oct 20 01:13:26 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 183BDB-0007xF-00 for ; Sun, 20 Oct 2002 01:13:25 -0700 Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 01:13:25 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Resizing NTFS Message-ID: <20021020081325.GJ19330@linuxmafia.com> References: <20021019060946.GK8904@linuxmafia.com> <20021020022835.GB6872@starshine.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021020022835.GB6872@starshine.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 4544 Lines: 90 Quoting Heather Stern (star@starshine.org): > The rest of this is roughly a Shareware-Advocacy HOWTO, with this case > as a specific example. > > Q. Should I pay this shareware fee, or can I just run off with the goodies? > A. If you're sure that they're "goodies" you've probably already > answered this for yourself ... pay up. > > Q. How can I tell the software is worth anything to me at all? > A. Try it. If it doesn't have your computer over for tea and send > you back a Mogwai that's been allowed to eat after midnight, it's > probably worth it. > > But the real question is about value. Did it save you enough time > to be worth the value this guy is charging? For an example see > below. Just following up on that: I received such weird and impassioned mail in response to my suggesting Linux activists hand out copies of BootIt NG only to people who fork over cheques to TeraByte Unlimited for the $29.95 shareware fee that it's forced me to think over _why_ I felt this way. It's a number of things. To review: The guy who's behind TeraByte Unlimited, whoever he is, decided to release BootIt NG as a proprietary binary, redistributable with some limits, 30-day-trial shareware. From the open-source perspective, this is generous and useful but not a long-term solution, because nobody else can maintain or fix it. By contrast, an open-source package can never die or become unusable as long as even one competent programmer cares (or is paid to care). So, it's not the cost; it's the maintainability. But most of the world at large doesn't get that: They assume -- and go around claiming -- that open-source is just a dodge for people too cheap to pay for their software. Further, they harbour a suspicion that we rip off proprietary software companies whenever we can: We use open-source only because the better proprietary stuff is out of our reach. After all, we go around talking about "freedom" and "fair use". That must mean we're criminals and copyright violators, right? In the DOS/Windows, MacOS, and PalmOS worlds, genuinely open-source software has never caught on, much. This is in part because of shareware offerings: Why bother writing an open-source modem program, when everyone has Qmodem or Telix? And all of those people who downloaded Qmodem or Telix, or got them from a friend, are vaguely aware that they're obliged to pay for them if they use them, but 99+% of them just get used to ignoring such obligations, because they can. So, DOS et al. users started developing an attitude that licences are things that theoretically apply to you, and in an ideal world you'd read them, but as a practical matter you just type "Yes" and use anything you can get your hands on. I mean, if they were serious about your paying, they'd force you to, right? This attitude doesn't stop with shareware. At many companies I've worked at -- including two proprietary software firms(!) -- people bootleg retail software without a second thought. Because everyone thinks taking licence agreements seriously and paying for what you use is someone else's problem. _These_ are the people who accuse _us_ -- open-source software users -- of being too cheap to pay for software, and of ripping off proprietary software companies when we can. They can't imagine any reason to use open-source software other than cost. And _they'd_ rip off proprietary software companies in an instant, so why wouldn't we? Which brings us back to BootIt NG: You could read that licence attentively, and say in all honestly that it absolutely permits LUGs to hand out tens of thousands of copies, each to a person who will need it exactly once, and have quantity _zero_ of those happy customers pay TeraByte a dime. Which is pretty much what happens with shareware, generally. And people hearing about this say "Well, I guess it's true that Linux users are too cheap to pay for anything, which is the only reason they use open source." What I'm saying is that it's not in our interest to participate in that happening, and we don't have to do so. We can tell users "You want BootIt NG? Fine; we'll give you a copy if you pay the shareware fee. If you'd rather not, feel free to get a copy without our help." Those users may stiff TeraByte, but at least we didn't help. And we set a good example. -- Cheers, "Get the facts first. You can distort them later." Rick Moen -- Mark Twain rick@linuxmafia.com From star@starshine.org Sun Oct 20 11:28:32 2002 Received: from antares.starshine.org ([216.240.40.177] helo=antares.in.starshine.org ident=postfix) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 183KoR-0000ba-00; Sun, 20 Oct 2002 11:28:31 -0700 Received: from gemini.starshine.org (gemini.starshine.org [216.240.40.169]) by antares.in.starshine.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E09423977; Sun, 20 Oct 2002 07:08:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gemini.starshine.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 15EBD140BD; Sun, 20 Oct 2002 12:18:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 12:18:54 -0700 To: Rick Moen Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Resizing NTFS Message-ID: <20021020191854.GA7029@starshine.org> References: <20021019060946.GK8904@linuxmafia.com> <20021020022835.GB6872@starshine.org> <20021020081325.GJ19330@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021020081325.GJ19330@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: star@starshine.org (Heather Stern) Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 6747 Lines: 132 > In the DOS/Windows, MacOS, and PalmOS worlds, genuinely open-source > software has never caught on, much. This is in part because of > shareware offerings: Why bother writing an open-source modem program, > when everyone has Qmodem or Telix? And all of those people who > downloaded Qmodem or Telix, or got them from a friend, are vaguely aware > that they're obliged to pay for them if they use them, but 99+% of them > just get used to ignoring such obligations, because they can. > > So, DOS et al. users started developing an attitude that licences are > things that theoretically apply to you, and in an ideal world you'd read > them, but as a practical matter you just type "Yes" and use anything you > can get your hands on. I mean, if they were serious about your paying, > they'd force you to, right? The original "strong premise" for shareware, and for genuinely paying up, was the following: 1. What if it *doesn't* work / isn't good for you? You bought the stuff at the store, see them stiff you on the manufacturer's 30 day return policy (send them mail. you needed a special note on your receipt? huh, why didn't you ask for that when you bought it? /honest! They really *said* things like this! The world has changed a little bit since then, but still/ well, I can call my manager /who's on a coffee break./ ), watch them try to stiff you on your state's 10 day return policy (sadly, a use remains for adult tantrums), waste a bunch of time in line even waiting for them too. Or: you download it at your friendly local BBS, get some reviews from some fellow nerds who actually *tried* it so they know what they stupid installer at least looks like, and if it doesn't work, then heck, it was just the same as if you had to do things The Hard Way anyway. if it does, pay up; one of your local buddies might be a shareware author too. You'd buy the guy a beer, wouldn't you? So why not a fiver for shareware. (as for tried it, yes, some lucky geek always gets to be first on the chopping block.) (yes, the glitch here is the prices have gone up. I recall when paying 5 or 10 got you the thank you note, and paying 25 got you source code. Those were the days. Most of them don't offer source anymore.) (Get Out The Cane And White Beard: yes, I also recall when the only way you could get decent software was in source form. No matter what else you think of Magazine BASIC, it was cross platform and it worked. c.f. my autobiographical filksong, LG, author bios.) 2. Aww c'mon, the expensive ones are half the price of the things in the store, and much better than half as good. Sometimes better, since the authors actually use them for the advertised effects. Interestingly enough, the same premise that some people use to push Linux and BSD. Not just "it's free" (pick a style of freedom) and not just "we have source" (which means not much to a newbie. to the right sort of person "we don't charge $450 for gcc - so you can recompile anything you want" is muuuuch more powerful) but also, our little penguin's igloo doesn't fall down the way the house made out of Windows does all the time. If I had a dollar for everytime a newbie shrugged off the "crashes less" commentary, then listened raptly to my tales of doing really bad things to systems and recovering by beating my way to a shell prompt... why, I could probably throw a big pizza party. > This attitude doesn't stop with shareware. At many companies I've > worked at -- including two proprietary software firms(!) -- people > bootleg retail software without a second thought. Because everyone > thinks taking licence agreements seriously and paying for what you use > is someone else's problem. > > _These_ are the people who accuse _us_ -- open-source software users -- > of being too cheap to pay for software, and of ripping off proprietary > software companies when we can. They can't imagine any reason to use > open-source software other than cost. And _they'd_ rip off proprietary > software companies in an instant, so why wouldn't we? We speak from a position of power. Our stuff is "free" (as in sharable, not as in unrestricted) ... even the folks at MS' home office can use it. But they would never pay the price to use its *parts* inside their own goods. > Which brings us back to BootIt NG: You could read that licence > attentively, and say in all honestly that it absolutely permits LUGs > to hand out tens of thousands of copies, each to a person who will need > it exactly once, and have quantity _zero_ of those happy customers pay > TeraByte a dime. Which is pretty much what happens with shareware, > generally. Yes; it goes in the "pay" vs "free" section of some large CD full of software, by two weeks later people dunno which was which even if they cared, and few people succumb even to nagware. Some will pony up for timebomb ware ... which I've always deeply mistrusted. Anybody send any very weirdly phrased postcards out to Columbia Univ. for their fonts, or spend a moment off thinking about third world countries? These are the kinds of things some folks have listed as their "how to register your software" when they haven't any expectation of people sending them money anymore. > And people hearing about this say "Well, I guess it's true that Linux > users are too cheap to pay for anything, which is the only reason they > use open source." Huh. I'd like to see those guys build their own kitchen cabinetry from raw lumber they were given and then say it didn't cost them anything. They *can* ... if they consider their time to have no value. c.f. Shareware Advocacy Item 2. (If it saved you more time then he's charging don't waste any more time whining about it.) > What I'm saying is that it's not in our interest to participate in that > happening, and we don't have to do so. We can tell users "You want > BootIt NG? Fine; we'll give you a copy if you pay the shareware fee. > If you'd rather not, feel free to get a copy without our help." Those > users may stiff TeraByte, but at least we didn't help. And we set a > good example. Hey, if I'm at a fest and some Shareware thingy mangles a disk so we have to do things The Hard Way, I'll help 'em shred the check, if they like. What they hell, I'll recommend some good Free word processors for the fellow so he can flam the fellow on letterhead, the old fashioned way :) . | . Heather Stern | star@starshine.org --->*<--- Starshine Technical Services - * - consulting@starshine.org ' | ` Sysadmin Support and Training | (800) 938-4078 From biow@bigfoot.com Tue Oct 22 12:24:46 2002 Received: from mail.pcmagic.net ([207.50.188.13]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1844dw-0007xd-00 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 2002 12:24:44 -0700 Received: (qmail 4401 invoked by uid 88); 22 Oct 2002 12:20:18 -0700 Received: from unknown (HELO bigfoot.com) (biow@66.81.148.41) by 0 with SMTP; 22 Oct 2002 12:20:18 -0700 Message-ID: <3DB5A4F1.9040005@bigfoot.com> Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 12:20:17 -0700 From: "Edmund J. Biow" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.1b) Gecko/20020721 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Resizing NTFS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1132 Lines: 23 Reportedly the newly released the Debian-based Xandros distribution (nee Corel) includes the option to non-destructively repartition NTFS with a "disk druid like utility." http://newsforge.com/newsforge/02/10/21/1749230.shtml?tid=23 I have no idea what the license status of the utility is. There is apparently a mix of GPL and proprietary software on the single CD. Nor do I know whether the ute will make a hash of your Windows partition. Unfortunately, there are no free-as-in-beer downloads and the distro runs $100. Jeez, I bought Corel Linux for only $25, complete with manual & stuffed penguin doll. Xandros comes with some other interesting features. There is Crossover Office, which enables you to install Windows programs (again, not a free-as-in-WINE program). Xandros also apparently has a Windows-like Control Center that allows you to easily adjust display settings (sometimes I want more flexibility than Ctrl+Alt+'+'). And you can switch users in the GUI from the launch menu. For a newbie oaf like myself, flailing about trying to make the transition to Linux it sounds pretty tempting. From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Oct 23 21:00:20 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 184ZAS-0001iT-00 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 21:00:20 -0700 Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 21:00:20 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Resizing NTFS Message-ID: <20021024040020.GW19330@linuxmafia.com> References: <3DB5A4F1.9040005@bigfoot.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3DB5A4F1.9040005@bigfoot.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 4271 Lines: 99 Quoting Edmund J. Biow (biow@bigfoot.com): > Reportedly the newly released the Debian-based Xandros distribution (nee > Corel) includes the option to non-destructively repartition NTFS with a > "disk druid like utility." > http://newsforge.com/newsforge/02/10/21/1749230.shtml?tid=23 > I have no idea what the license status of the utility is. I'm about 99% sure it's integral to the proprietary, non-redistributable installer program. I've been collecting all this NTFS-coping stuff in one file, here: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/ntfs The file has gotten long and confusing enough that I've now prepended a summary. The idea is that Linux folk can look up what's known about the issue, there, rather than having to re-research it. Summary follows: THE NTFS PROBLEM FOR LINUX INSTALLERS SUMMARY Because Microsoft has begun using NTFS partitions for preloads, people coming to the Linux community for help creating a dual-boot Linux/Microsoft setup have a new challenge. Traditional "non-destructive" partitioners don't work: FIPS, GNU Parted, DiskDrake, Ranish Partition Manager, Partition Resizer, PartitionIt Extra Strength -- all are FAT-only (no NTFS). Worsening this problem is omission of genuine reinstallation disks for MS-Windows & bundled apps from current OEM preloads: The provided "recovery disks" wipe out your hard drive completely and reallocate the entire drive to NTFS. We've found three classes of solutions: 1. NTFS-resizing software: Proprietary/retail-only, may not be lawfully redistributed: o PowerQuest Corp.'s Partition Magic: $80, retail / pay first o Paragon Software's Partition Manager: $40, retail / pay first o Acronis OS Selector: $45, trial version avail., but it's crippled. o V-Communications's System Commander 7: $70, retail / pay first o Xandros Desktop OS's installer: $100, retail / pay first Proprietary/redistributable (by individuals who don't charge): o TeraByte Unlimited's BootIt Next Gen.: $29.95 "shareware", 30 day trial http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/downloads/ . Also reportedly on Simtel sites. Also on my machine, http://linuxmafia.com/pub/hardware/ as bootit-ng-1.32a.zip . Included is a diskette image. You make the image, then boot it. (Decline its offer to "install".) Proprietary / terms of redistribution unknown: o ASPLinux distribution installer's ASPDiskManager utility: downloadable CD image, http://www.asp-linux.com/ Open source: o The ntfs-progs utilities collection from Anton Altaparmakov's Linux NTFS Utilities effort, http://linux-ntfs.sourceforge.net/ includes "ntfsresize", similar to FIPS. ntfsresize may be dangerously buggy. Beware! I compiled it for people's convenience: http://linuxmafia.com/pub/hardware/ ntfs-progs-post1.6.0-20021018-i386compiled.tar.gz 2. Partition-imaging software with NTFS support (i.e., understands NTFS file semantics, and thus can reduce an image's size): o Symantec/Norton Ghost: proprietary/retail-only o Partimage: open-source. http://www.partimage.org/ Included on these rescue disks: http://rescuecd.sourceforge.net/ http://mkcdrec.ota.be/ The idea is to back up the partition image to elsewhere (e.g. a Linux server), blow away the original, and copy the partition back _smaller_. Both packages seem to require that you NOT have NTFS compression enabled, and that you defragment the NTFS partition: 2 a). NTFS Defragmenters: o Symantec/Norton Speedisk: proprietary/retail-only o Raxco Software, Inc.'s PerfectDisk NT: proprietary/retail-only o Paragon Software's Partition Manager: proprietary/retail-only o System Internals's PageDefrag: proprietary/retail-only o Defragmenters included in MS-Windows XP Professional only: o Disk Defragmenter (snap-in) o Defrag.exe (command-line) o Executive Software's Diskeeper: proprietary/retail-only o Executive Software's Diskeeper Lite 7.0: proprietary / gratis download, http://www1.execsoft.com/dklite.exe (11 MB) labelled "freeware". 3. Advise the machine's owner to add a second hard drive and load Linux there, to finesse the need to deal with NTFS resizing. From rick@linuxmafia.com Sat Oct 26 03:00:57 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 185NkW-000461-00 for ; Sat, 26 Oct 2002 03:00:56 -0700 Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 03:00:54 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20021026100054.GE23673@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] More on resizing NTFS Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 9348 Lines: 198 Quoting from my summary: Proprietary / terms of redistribution unknown: o ASPLinux distribution installer's ASPDiskManager utility: downloadable CD image, http://www.asp-linux.com/ I checked it out. OK, folks, this is a weird one. "ASPLinux" is an RPM-based distibution produced in Russia by a company called SWsoft, which has Linux-related subsidiaries in the USA, South Korea, China, and Singapore (ASPLinux Pte. Ltd.). Looks like most of the Linux business is in Singapore, but the coders are in Russia. One of the advantages claimed for it is the ability to resize NTFS during installation, using an included "ASPDiskManager" utility. Which is, of course, what got my interest. Where is it? ------------ There are i386 and PPC[1] versions. And there are lots of download sites for the i386 ISOs: ftp://ftp-linux.cc.gatech.edu/pub/Linux/distributions/asplinux/i386/7.3/ ftp://fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu/pub/Linux/distributions/asplinux ftp://ftp.oit.unc.edu/pub/Linux/distributions/asplinux http://east.dl.sourceforge.net/mirrors/metalab/Linux/distributions/asplinux/ ftp://ftp.metalab.unc.edu/pub/Linux/distributions/asplinux http://rpmfind.net/linux/ASPLinux/i386/7.3/ rsync://download.asplinux.ru::ASPLinux/i386/current/ ftp://fr.rpmfind.net/linux/ASPLinux/i386/7.3/ ftp://ftp.ese-metz.fr/pub/Linux/distributions/asp-linux/i386/current/ http://fr.rpmfind.net/linux/ASPLinux/i386/7.3/ ftp://ftp.informatik.rwth-aachen.de/pub/comp/Linux/sunsite.unc.edu/distributions/asplinux/ http://sunsite.informatik.rwth-aachen.de/cgi-bin/ftp/ftpshow/pub/Linux/sunsite.unc.edu/distributions/asplinux ftp://ftp.duth.gr/pub/ASPLinux/ ftp://ftp.ntua.gr/pub/linux/asplinux/i386/7.3/ ftp://ftp.fsn.hu/pub/CDROM-Images/asplinux/i386/7.3/ ftp://ftp.kddlabs.co.jp/Linux/distributions/ASPLinux/i386/7.3/ ftp://ftp.kr.psi.net/pub/mirrors/asp-linux/ ftp://ftp.surfnet.nl/pub/os/Linux/distr/asplinux/i386/7.3/ ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/os/Linux/distr/asplinux/i386/7.3/ ftp://ftp.clear.net.nz/mirror/ftp.asp-linux.com/i386/7.1/ ftp://ftp.man.poznan.pl/vols/vol1/sunsite/distributions/asplinux ftp://ftp.gamma.ru/pub/asplinux/i386/7.3/ ftp://linux4u.jinr.ru/pub/ASPlinux/i386/7.3/ http://download.asplinux.ru/install/ftp/i386/7.3/ What is it? ----------- The mystifying part was: Were they really giving this stuff away for free? Was it one of those deals where only the Deluxe Edition boxed set had the impressive goodies? I also noticed a press release saying ASPLinux Pte. Ltd. had become an authorised distributor for Acronis OS Selector, one of the retail, you-may-not-redistribute packages that do NTFS resizing. So, I e-mailed ASPLinux Pte. Ltd. asking (1) What are ASPDiskManager's licence terms? (2) Is source code available to the public? (3) Is there any connection between ASPDiskManager and Acronis OS Selector? The next morning, I got a telephone call, not from ASPLinux/SWsoft, but rather _Acronis_. They wanted to know what I was digging into, so I told them. They said ASPDiskManager _is_ Acronis OS Selector, included in ASPLinux under licence. So, I downloaded an ISO of ASPLinux v. 7.3 disk 1 (of 3). Burned it to disk. Booted it. Very nice graphical installer. Pick your language, pick your mouse type, pick _custom_ installation (overriding the default of quick installation), select installation source (CD), pick custom partitioning (default). You're now in ASPDiskManager. Hot damn! It seems quite impressive. If you highlight an existing partition and select the Edit button, you see an Edit Partition screen whose options include Resize. It will resize NTFS, FAT, ext2/ext3, XFS, and Reiser! I didn't have any partitions I cared to sacrifice, let alone NTFS ones, but likely you just exit the ASPDiskManager screen and then hard boot and eject the CD (if you just needed the resizer, and don't want to install ASPLinux). How free is free? ----------------- Time for a review of software types classified by licence. o Proprietary / non-redistributable. E.g., most retail software. You open the box, and see a licence, which probably has a lot of nasty restrictions, including maybe it being allegedly non-transferrable (which courts have held to be bunk) and that you may not hand out copies. Many people don't realise that, even if no explicit licence said so, it would still be unlawful to redistribute it, _by default_. The Copyright Act reserves that right to the copyright holder. That's right: Software is proprietary by default. It takes an explicit licence to change this. o Proprietary / redistributable. E.g., shareware. If you read the README for a piece of shareware, it says you're welcome to re-upload it, even though you're allegedly prohibited from modifying it, reverse-engineering it, decompiling it, etc. A lot of people assume that anything you find downloadable for free from the Internet is therefore lawfully redistributable. Not so. Again, that right is reserved, by default. For example, after Microsoft save Corel from collapse with a huge investment, Corel discontinued downloads of WordPerfect 8.0 Download Personal Edition for Linux, _and_ apparently telephoned CNET and Tucows, saying "Pull those files." Because WP 8.0 DPE for Linux never included a grant of permission to redistribute, CNET and Tucows were forced to comply.[2] A lot of such software does exist on the Net, some of it with source code. Where the copyright owners aren't being zealous in going after people, often it circulates for decades. In some cases, they intended this and just failed to include a licence statement -- or wrote that permission in a letter, or on a Web page, or in a telephone conversation. Any of those might suffice: A licence is whatever a judge agrees is one. But the point is that, if you _don't_ have any sort of licence, then at best you can convince the judge that you lawfully downloaded it: You have no inherent right to redistribute. If you do redistribute, you run the risk of the copyright owner coming screaming at you, telling you that you may not (and worse things, in these days of DMCA legal action). A more current example is Borland Kylix Open Edition. You can download it directly from Borland for free -- but its terms very explicitly omit permission to redistribute. (In fact, just in case you're unclear on that point, it's actually forbidden.) If they wished, Borland could also designate other authorised download sites -- like CNET's download.com and Tucows, for example. But all of those sites could be shut off without advance notice, and nobody would have the right to offer it elsewhere. o Open source. This is software that _is_ explicitly redistributable, and whose further development anyone may take over ("fork"). As noted, this isn't possible without a licence, since the default licence (inherent in the Copyright Act) is proprietary. But what the hell is this...? ----------------------------- Which brings us back to ASPLinux, ASPDiskManager, and Acronis OS Selector. Acronis OS Selector is very much in the proprietary / non-redistributable category. But what about ASPLinux (which _includes_ Acronis OS Selector, under licence)? I read the README. It says you're explicitly allowed to redistribute. It's obvious that the ASPLinux installer as a whole (including ASPDiskManager) falls basically into the second category, above (proprietary / redistributable). There's no sign of source code for it, so nobody's going to be able to maintain ASPDiskManager independently of SWsoft. And there's no obvious way to extract just ASPDiskManager from the installer, and pass it around separately. But it looks like ASPLinux disk 1 can be distributed indefinitely. Acronis may eventually become unhappy about this -- as it puts a bit of a monkeywrench in their product sales model. They might convey that unhappiness to ASPLinux Pte Ltd. / SWsoft, who conceivably might yank existing ISOs from ftp sites it controls and ask removal from others. But I _believe_ they could _not_ compel the files' removal. (I'm not a lawyer.) So... ----- Linux users who're in the habit of helping people create MS-Windows dual-boot setups might want to add ASPLinux disk1 to their kits. It appears to be as redistributable as the open-source (but scarily prerelease) ntfsresize utility, and even more than BootIt NG (which may not be redistributed by companies or for money). And by all means put one or both of the rescue disks with the open-source Partimage partition-imaging utility in your kits (http://mkcdrec.ota.be/ , http://rescuecd.sourceforge.net/). Both are toolkits, but the latter one has preconstructed images, too. [1] There used to be a version of Windows NT for PowerPC, with NTFS support. So, it's quite possible that ASPLinux for PPC includes an NTFS resizer, and that such a feature would not be entirely pointless. However, it seems very unlikely that the Linux community would have to deal with such computers, at this late date. [2] One can still find WP 8.0 DPE elsewhere. Presumably, Corel quit after getting it removed from the two largest download sites. The point is that Corel _could_ enjoin all the others, too. From rick@linuxmafia.com Sat Oct 26 03:03:17 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 185Nmm-00049r-00 for ; Sat, 26 Oct 2002 03:03:16 -0700 Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 03:03:16 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20021026100316.GF23673@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] CABAL meeting, Saturday, 4 PM Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 288 Lines: 8 Yes, we _are_ having a CABAL meeting, Saturday evening. Sorry about the Web pages' state. All are welcome! -- Cheers, "We're sorry; you have reached an imaginary number. Rick Moen Please rotate your 'phone ninety degrees and try again." rick@linuxmafia.com From biow@bigfoot.com Tue Oct 29 11:57:01 2002 Received: from mail.pcmagic.net ([207.50.188.13]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 186cU0-0001u0-00 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 11:57:00 -0800 Received: (qmail 80970 invoked by uid 88); 29 Oct 2002 11:51:57 -0800 Received: from unknown (HELO bigfoot.com) (biow@66.81.146.83) by 0 with SMTP; 29 Oct 2002 11:51:57 -0800 Message-ID: <3DBEE6BC.9070806@bigfoot.com> Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 11:51:24 -0800 From: "Edmund J. Biow" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.2a) Gecko/20020910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Linux Mafia Subject: Re: [conspire] More on resizing NTFS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 11990 Lines: 249 Apparently Acronis OS will also be offered as part of SuSE Enterprise Desktop, which is being announced today & will ship in first quarter of next year: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/27832.html The distro seems to be part of a SuSE effort to make inroads in the Windows desktop OS market & will come with Codeweavers Crossover Office, which will allow users to install and run MS Orifice and Lotus Notes, as well as other popular Windows apps. Quoting from the article: Acronis OS Selector is one of those disk management products that pitches itself at the weak-willed and foolish by saying it "allows you to install up to 100 and even more operating systems (OSs) on one computer, boot an OS from any partition on any hard disk, have several operating system on the same partition." Trust us, this road leads to madness very quickly - we're sure it's very good, but stick to two, max. Looking frrom the point of view of SuSE Linux Desktop, it works with YasT2 to get the installer past that tricky stage of getting Linux onto a Windows machine without destroying everything, and it's significant that SuSE is going for a commercial disk/boot manager here. YaST itself is said by SuSE to be a be able to do the necessary re-arrangement of Win9x partitions, so presumably Acronis is there to handle XP and 2000. More properly though the differentiation should be between FAT32 and NTFS partitions, YaST being able to understand the former but not the latter. If you have a choice about it, we suggest you'll be a lot happier and more interoperable if you stick to FAT32 rather than installing XP or 2k on NTFS. Some major manufacturers we've noticed actually ship machines configured like this, but don't tell Microsoft. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Moen" To: Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2002 2:00 AM Subject: [conspire] More on resizing NTFS > Quoting from my summary: > > Proprietary / terms of redistribution unknown: > o ASPLinux distribution installer's ASPDiskManager utility: > downloadable CD image, http://www.asp-linux.com/ > > I checked it out. OK, folks, this is a weird one. > > "ASPLinux" is an RPM-based distibution produced in Russia by a company > called SWsoft, which has Linux-related subsidiaries in the USA, South > Korea, China, and Singapore (ASPLinux Pte. Ltd.). Looks like most of > the Linux business is in Singapore, but the coders are in Russia. One > of the advantages claimed for it is the ability to resize NTFS during > installation, using an included "ASPDiskManager" utility. > > Which is, of course, what got my interest. > > > Where is it? > ------------ > > There are i386 and PPC[1] versions. And there are lots of download sites > for the i386 ISOs: > > ftp://ftp-linux.cc.gatech.edu/pub/Linux/distributions/asplinux/i386/7.3/ > ftp://fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu/pub/Linux/distributions/asplinux > ftp://ftp.oit.unc.edu/pub/Linux/distributions/asplinux > http://east.dl.sourceforge.net/mirrors/metalab/Linux/distributions/asplinux/ > ftp://ftp.metalab.unc.edu/pub/Linux/distributions/asplinux > http://rpmfind.net/linux/ASPLinux/i386/7.3/ > rsync://download.asplinux.ru::ASPLinux/i386/current/ > ftp://fr.rpmfind.net/linux/ASPLinux/i386/7.3/ > ftp://ftp.ese-metz.fr/pub/Linux/distributions/asp-linux/i386/current/ > http://fr.rpmfind.net/linux/ASPLinux/i386/7.3/ > ftp://ftp.informatik.rwth-aachen.de/pub/comp/Linux/sunsite.unc.edu/distributions/asplinux/ > http://sunsite.informatik.rwth-aachen.de/cgi-bin/ftp/ftpshow/pub/Linux/sunsite.unc.edu/distributions/asplinux > ftp://ftp.duth.gr/pub/ASPLinux/ > ftp://ftp.ntua.gr/pub/linux/asplinux/i386/7.3/ > ftp://ftp.fsn.hu/pub/CDROM-Images/asplinux/i386/7.3/ > ftp://ftp.kddlabs.co.jp/Linux/distributions/ASPLinux/i386/7.3/ > ftp://ftp.kr.psi.net/pub/mirrors/asp-linux/ > ftp://ftp.surfnet.nl/pub/os/Linux/distr/asplinux/i386/7.3/ > ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/os/Linux/distr/asplinux/i386/7.3/ > ftp://ftp.clear.net.nz/mirror/ftp.asp-linux.com/i386/7.1/ > ftp://ftp.man.poznan.pl/vols/vol1/sunsite/distributions/asplinux > ftp://ftp.gamma.ru/pub/asplinux/i386/7.3/ > ftp://linux4u.jinr.ru/pub/ASPlinux/i386/7.3/ > http://download.asplinux.ru/install/ftp/i386/7.3/ > > > What is it? > ----------- > > The mystifying part was: Were they really giving this stuff away for > free? Was it one of those deals where only the Deluxe Edition boxed > set had the impressive goodies? > > I also noticed a press release saying ASPLinux Pte. Ltd. had become an > authorised distributor for Acronis OS Selector, one of the retail, > you-may-not-redistribute packages that do NTFS resizing. So, I e-mailed > ASPLinux Pte. Ltd. asking (1) What are ASPDiskManager's licence terms? > (2) Is source code available to the public? (3) Is there any connection > between ASPDiskManager and Acronis OS Selector? > > The next morning, I got a telephone call, not from ASPLinux/SWsoft, but > rather _Acronis_. They wanted to know what I was digging into, so I > told them. They said ASPDiskManager _is_ Acronis OS Selector, included > in ASPLinux under licence. > > > So, I downloaded an ISO of ASPLinux v. 7.3 disk 1 (of 3). Burned it to > disk. Booted it. Very nice graphical installer. Pick your language, > pick your mouse type, pick _custom_ installation (overriding the default > of quick installation), select installation source (CD), pick custom > partitioning (default). You're now in ASPDiskManager. Hot damn! > > It seems quite impressive. If you highlight an existing partition and > select the Edit button, you see an Edit Partition screen whose options > include Resize. It will resize NTFS, FAT, ext2/ext3, XFS, and Reiser! > I didn't have any partitions I cared to sacrifice, let alone NTFS ones, > but likely you just exit the ASPDiskManager screen and then hard boot > and eject the CD (if you just needed the resizer, and don't want to > install ASPLinux). > > > How free is free? > ----------------- > > Time for a review of software types classified by licence. > > o Proprietary / non-redistributable. E.g., most retail software. > You open the box, and see a licence, which probably has a lot > of nasty restrictions, including maybe it being allegedly > non-transferrable (which courts have held to be bunk) and that > you may not hand out copies. Many people don't realise that, even > if no explicit licence said so, it would still be unlawful to > redistribute it, _by default_. The Copyright Act reserves that > right to the copyright holder. > > That's right: Software is proprietary by default. It takes an > explicit licence to change this. > > o Proprietary / redistributable. E.g., shareware. If you read the > README for a piece of shareware, it says you're welcome to > re-upload it, even though you're allegedly prohibited from > modifying it, reverse-engineering it, decompiling it, etc. > > A lot of people assume that anything you find downloadable for free > from the Internet is therefore lawfully redistributable. Not so. > Again, that right is reserved, by default. For example, after > Microsoft save Corel from collapse with a huge investment, Corel > discontinued downloads of WordPerfect 8.0 Download Personal Edition > for Linux, _and_ apparently telephoned CNET and Tucows, saying > "Pull those files." Because WP 8.0 DPE for Linux never included > a grant of permission to redistribute, CNET and Tucows were forced > to comply.[2] > > A lot of such software does exist on the Net, some of it with source > code. Where the copyright owners aren't being zealous in going > after people, often it circulates for decades. In some cases, they > intended this and just failed to include a licence statement -- or > wrote that permission in a letter, or on a Web page, or in a > telephone conversation. Any of those might suffice: A licence > is whatever a judge agrees is one. > > But the point is that, if you _don't_ have any sort of licence, > then at best you can convince the judge that you lawfully downloaded > it: You have no inherent right to redistribute. If you do > redistribute, you run the risk of the copyright owner coming > screaming at you, telling you that you may not (and worse things, > in these days of DMCA legal action). > > A more current example is Borland Kylix Open Edition. You can > download it directly from Borland for free -- but its terms very > explicitly omit permission to redistribute. (In fact, just in > case you're unclear on that point, it's actually forbidden.) > If they wished, Borland could also designate other authorised > download sites -- like CNET's download.com and Tucows, for example. > But all of those sites could be shut off without advance notice, > and nobody would have the right to offer it elsewhere. > > o Open source. This is software that _is_ explicitly redistributable, > and whose further development anyone may take over ("fork"). As > noted, this isn't possible without a licence, since the default > licence (inherent in the Copyright Act) is proprietary. > > > But what the hell is this...? > ----------------------------- > > Which brings us back to ASPLinux, ASPDiskManager, and Acronis OS > Selector. Acronis OS Selector is very much in the proprietary / > non-redistributable category. But what about ASPLinux (which _includes_ > Acronis OS Selector, under licence)? > > I read the README. It says you're explicitly allowed to redistribute. > > It's obvious that the ASPLinux installer as a whole (including > ASPDiskManager) falls basically into the second category, above > (proprietary / redistributable). There's no sign of source code for it, > so nobody's going to be able to maintain ASPDiskManager independently > of SWsoft. And there's no obvious way to extract just ASPDiskManager > from the installer, and pass it around separately. But it looks like > ASPLinux disk 1 can be distributed indefinitely. > > Acronis may eventually become unhappy about this -- as it puts a bit > of a monkeywrench in their product sales model. They might convey > that unhappiness to ASPLinux Pte Ltd. / SWsoft, who conceivably might > yank existing ISOs from ftp sites it controls and ask removal from > others. But I _believe_ they could _not_ compel the files' removal. > (I'm not a lawyer.) > > > So... > ----- > > Linux users who're in the habit of helping people create MS-Windows > dual-boot setups might want to add ASPLinux disk1 to their kits. > It appears to be as redistributable as the open-source (but scarily > prerelease) ntfsresize utility, and even more than BootIt NG (which > may not be redistributed by companies or for money). And by all means > put one or both of the rescue disks with the open-source Partimage > partition-imaging utility in your kits (http://mkcdrec.ota.be/ , > http://rescuecd.sourceforge.net/). Both are toolkits, but the latter > one has preconstructed images, too. > > > [1] There used to be a version of Windows NT for PowerPC, with NTFS > support. So, it's quite possible that ASPLinux for PPC includes an > NTFS resizer, and that such a feature would not be entirely pointless. > However, it seems very unlikely that the Linux community would have to > deal with such computers, at this late date. > > [2] One can still find WP 8.0 DPE elsewhere. Presumably, Corel quit > after getting it removed from the two largest download sites. The > point is that Corel _could_ enjoin all the others, too. > > > _______________________________________________ > conspire mailing list > conspire@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire > From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Oct 29 12:26:12 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 186cvx-0006kA-00; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 12:25:53 -0800 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 12:25:42 -0800 From: Rick Moen To: Dire Red , Cheryl Morris , conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20021029202542.GJ23673@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. Subject: [conspire] (forw) BoF 45 (tonight) Network Security Monitoring : live lab (tuesday 29th 7PM) Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1178 Lines: 42 Announcement e-mail from MindSource. HTML has been stripped. ----- Forwarded message from MindSource ----- Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 12:12:29 -0800 (PST) From: MindSource To: rick@linuxmafia.com Reply-To: events@mindsource.com Subject: BoF 45 (tonight) Network Security Monitoring : live lab (tuesday 29th 7PM) Reminder: MindSource BoF # Forty-Five www.mindsource.com Network Security Management Michael's at Shoreline Tuesday October 29, 7 PM until late Refreshments served, no-host bar BoF #45 -- Topics in Network Security Management Network Security Management with Live Lab Data Storage Design Speakers from SolSoft Firewall and VPN Deployments IP security and network partitioning. Building your network topology Designing Network Security Policies Compilation Two Case Studies How do Design and deploy consistent IP security Sample Enterprise Network Sample Managed Service Providers Network BoF # Forty-Five (That's Birds of a Feather) Tuesday (tonight), October 29 7:00 PM http://www.mindsource.com/announce/michaels.jpg http://mindsource.com/bofs/shoreline.html Directions to Michaels at Shoreline From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Oct 29 13:23:43 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 186dpb-0006Lx-00 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 13:23:23 -0800 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 13:23:12 -0800 To: Linux Mafia Subject: Re: [conspire] More on resizing NTFS Message-ID: <20021029212312.GK23673@linuxmafia.com> References: <3DBEE6BC.9070806@bigfoot.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3DBEE6BC.9070806@bigfoot.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 892 Lines: 22 Quoting Edmund J. Biow (biow@bigfoot.com): > Apparently Acronis OS will also be offered as part of SuSE Enterprise > Desktop, which is being announced today & will ship in first quarter of > next year: > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/27832.html According to the article, it'll _also_ be included in the lower-priced SuSE Linux Desktop bundle. (Neither is yet a current product.) Projected list price for Desktop is $130 or the same number of Euros. NTFS resizers, Crossover Office and Plug-In, and sometimes Star Office seem to among the most common non-redistributable proprietary sweeteners in the new "desktop" distributions (Xandros Desktop, Lycoris, etc.). It seems likely SuSE are moving to ensure they can take advantage of that market, if it turns out to be real. -- Cheers, Rick Moen Linux for Intel: Party like it's 2037! rick@linuxmafia.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Fri Nov 01 09:08:45 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 187fHp-0002gF-00 for ; Fri, 01 Nov 2002 09:08:45 -0800 Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 09:08:45 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20021101170845.GG23673@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] (forw) Xandros announces special discount for LUG members worldwide Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 2209 Lines: 58 ----- Forwarded message from Roopa Vonkarey ----- Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 11:57:43 -0500 From: Roopa Vonkarey Subject: Xandros announces special discount for LUG members worldwide Dear Linux User: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- X A N D R O S LUG OUTREACH PROGRAM October, 2002 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Xandros is pleased to announce the launch of Linux Users Group Outreach program. From now till the end of November, we are offering Linux Users Group members worldwide a discount of 45% so you can try Xandros Desktop for yourself. For US customers, you will also be able to enjoy free shipping to all lower 48 states. So for a total of US $54.45, you will have Xandros Desktop delivered right to your home. Please feel free to forward this email with the discount coupon code to all members of your Linux User Group. Please use this LUG discount coupon code when ordering: dcce72d486f2 You can learn more about Xandros Desktop at www.xandros.com/desktop.html. We are confident that you will see why Xandros is the leader in the Linux desktop market and the first true viable alternative to Windows. Below are two recent articles on Xandros Desktop that you may find useful: http://newsforge.com/newsforge/02/10/21/1749230.shtml?tid=23 http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,648362,00.asp ---------------------------------------------------------------- Some important features in Xandros Desktop 1.0: -Easy install, 5 clicks of a mouse -Runs on a wide range of hardware -Run popular Windows applicaitons like MS Office and Quicken -Interoperates with existing Windows networking environment -Ability to: Browse the web Write emails Create documents and spreadsheets Connect to the internet -Free access to updates and many applications on Xandros Networks -And much, much, more... Xandros Simple. Powerful. Linux. ----- End forwarded message ----- From rick@linuxmafia.com Fri Nov 08 23:41:50 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18AQFa-0007uL-00 for ; Fri, 08 Nov 2002 23:41:50 -0800 Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 23:41:50 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20021109074150.GH23673@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] Learn Perl with Randal Schwartz. Also, CABAL meets _tomorrow_. Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1708 Lines: 44 This class is allegedly being taught by Randal Schwartz, even though the Web page lists Tom Phoenix as the instructor. Also, it's CABAL time again. Saturday Nov. 9 (tomorrow), 4 PM onwards. Y'all are welcome. -----Original Message----- From: qw@sf.pm.org [mailto:qw@sf.pm.org] Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 1:55 PM To: sfpug@sf.pm.org Subject: [sf-perl] Randal Schwartz teaching in SV December 9-12 Hey, everyone, I just got a note from Randal saying he'll be in town those dates. He's teaching an open-enrollment "llama class" at Silicon Valley College --"open-enrollment" meaning anyone can take it, meaning you. ;) I bet our recently active CGI study group (yay!) would be especially well- served by this. Since he'll be in town, we'll have some kind of meeting, probably on December 12 if Randal can make it--probably a talk followed by going our for drinks / dessert. Here is Randal's blurb for the course: This course will be taught in San Jose at Silicon Valley College: December 9-12: Learning Perl (Randal Schwartz) phone: 408-360-1099 Learning Perl: This course is based on Randal Schwartz's popular O'Reilly Nutshell book, Learning Perl. The course presumes no prior knowledge of Perl, and exposes the course participants to what we call the "middle two-thirds" of Perl --those items that are needed to accomplish many common tasks, and to lay the groundwork for more advanced study on an as-needed basis. This is a hands-on course in which students apply the programming methods and principles developed in the lectures. ----- End forwarded message ----- From biow@bigfoot.com Mon Nov 11 12:42:32 2002 Received: from mail.pcmagic.net ([207.50.188.13]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18BLOB-0005P4-00 for ; Mon, 11 Nov 2002 12:42:31 -0800 Received: (qmail 34845 invoked by uid 88); 11 Nov 2002 12:36:41 -0800 Received: from unknown (HELO vid) (biow@66.167.122.141) by 0 with SMTP; 11 Nov 2002 12:36:41 -0800 Message-ID: <005101c289c2$0b901d50$c27ba8c0@vid> From: "Edmund J. Biow" To: References: <20021019060946.GK8904@linuxmafia.com> Subject: Re: [conspire] Resizing NTFS Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 12:36:41 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1093 Lines: 32 Apparently Acronis True Image 6.0 is available for only $10 to Norton Ghost users. It claims to be able to back up active partitions from within Windows, as well. https://www.regnow.com/softsell/nph-softsell.cgi?item=4864-12 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Moen" To: Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 10:09 PM Subject: [conspire] Resizing NTFS > Lots of people come to Linux events with their MS-Windows preloads, > wanting us to set up dual-boot. Which we've been able to do, thanks to > resizer utilities like FIPS, GNU Parted, etc. Recently, Microsoft has > thrown a curveball at us: Recent preloads have tended to use NTFS > filesystems, rather than FAT. Most resizing tools -- and all of the > common open-source ones -- are FAT-only. This is starting to become a > significant roadblock. > > > After much checking, I've found the following options: > > -- four proprietary tools that are retail-only. snip > 1. Retail-only, proprietary: snip > o Acronis OS Selector: $45, trial version avail., but it's crippled. snip From skiffworks@earthlink.net Sun Dec 01 07:07:49 2002 Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.12]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18IVhF-0001w0-00 for ; Sun, 01 Dec 2002 07:07:49 -0800 Received: from cpe-24-221-189-101.ca.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.189.101] helo=localhost.localdomain) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18IVaC-0006VZ-00 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Sun, 01 Dec 2002 07:00:32 -0800 From: Bill Stoye To: Conspire Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.5 Date: 01 Dec 2002 07:00:40 -0800 Message-Id: <1038754841.501.215.camel@skiffworks> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: [conspire] Soundconfig: Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1880 Lines: 46 Hi Rick: I got and ran 'sndconfig' as you suggested, it finished without any errors but I must still be missing/not understanding something; during shutdown a message scrolls up saying: Starting ALSA sound driver (version none): modprobe: can't locate module snd failed. When I retry sndconfig I get the following: ERROR: No Sound Modules found You don't seem to be running a kernel with modular sound enabled. (soundcore.o was not found in the module search path). To use sndconfig, you must be running a kernel with modular sound, such as the kernel shipped with Red Hat Linux or a 2.2 or greater kernel. Looked up the following: skiffworks:/home/bill# uname -r 2.2.20-idepci also did this: skiffworks:/usr/src# dpkg -l kernel-image-2.2.20-idepci Desired=Unknown/Install/Remove/Purge/Hold | Status=Not/Installed/Config-files/Unpacked/Failed-config/Half-installed |/ Err?=(none)/Hold/Reinst-required/X=both-problems (Status,Err: uppercase=bad) ||/ Name Version Description +++-==============-==============-============================================ un kernel-image-2 (no description available) I have been trying since July 28th., when I first installed Debian to get sound running; It seems a long way off but I think I would like to bring my PC to the meeting the 2nd weekend of December and elicit your help if I may. I've become quite discouraged over this, I would like to move on to other things, there's much to do and learn but I'm bogged down. Nor can I remember how you did the sound test on your lap top, I neglected to note it down. Thanks for any help/advice that may come my way. Bill From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Dec 03 22:30:56 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18JT3g-0003yB-00 for ; Tue, 03 Dec 2002 22:30:56 -0800 Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 22:30:55 -0800 To: Conspire Subject: Re: [conspire] Soundconfig: Message-ID: <20021204063055.GM10059@linuxmafia.com> References: <1038754841.501.215.camel@skiffworks> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1038754841.501.215.camel@skiffworks> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 3726 Lines: 78 Hi, Bill! Quoting Bill Stoye (skiffworks@earthlink.net): > I got and ran 'sndconfig' as you suggested, it finished > without any errors but I must still be missing/not understanding > something; during shutdown a message scrolls up saying: Starting ALSA > sound driver (version none): modprobe: can't locate module snd failed. > > When I retry sndconfig I get the following: > > ERROR: No Sound Modules found > You don't seem to be running a kernel with modular > sound enabled. (soundcore.o was not found in the > module search path). > To use sndconfig, you must be running a kernel with > modular sound, such as the kernel shipped with Red Hat > Linux or a 2.2 or greater kernel. > > Looked up the following: > skiffworks:/home/bill# uname -r > 2.2.20-idepci Well, the "idepci" series of precompiled kernels are deliberately very pared down, so it's not really surprising that sound drivers are among the things left out. (The idea of the "idepci" ones is that you might need a kernel that omits support for some troublesome hardware in order to successfully complete installation, otherwise the installer's attempt to probe for those hardware components might freeze the installation attempt. The idea is that you'd replace the limited-drivers kernel afterwards with either a more-suitable precompiled kernel or a custom one that you compile for yourself.) The Debian 3.0-based laptop computer in front of me has "kernel-image-2.4.18-bf2.4". The "boot-flavour 2.4" packages are one of the many precompiled Debian kernels that include sound drivers. You can find others by looking through the available-packages catalogues (the *Packages ones) in your /var/lib/apt/lists/ directory -- or use a GUI tool like aptitude, synaptic, or whatever you prefer. You might do better with one of the _very_ standard procompiled kernels, like: kernel-image-2.4-686 (for PPro/Celeron/PII/PIII/PIV machines) kernel-image-2.4-686-smp (for PPro/Celeron/PII/PIII/PIV SMP machines) kernel-image-2.4-k6 (for AMD K6/K6-II/K6-III machines) kernel-image-2.4-k7 (for AMD K7/Athlon/Duron/Thunderbird machines) kernel-image-2.4-k7-smp (for AMD K7/Athlon/Duron/Thunderbird SMP machines) Any of those can be installed via apt-get. If you do, be very careful to follow any special instructions you see at that time, e.g., changes to /etc/lilo.conf . (At the minimum, take care to leave a paragraph in /etc/lilo.conf for your old 2.2.20-idepci kernel, so you can reboot using it, in the event your 2.4.x one has problems.) > I have been trying since July 28th., when I first installed Debian to > get sound running; It seems a long way off but I think I would like to > bring my PC to the meeting the 2nd weekend of December and elicit your > help if I may. Of course you're welcome to. Should be no big problem, I expect. Or you might want to do "apt-get install kernel-image-2.4-686" (or whatever version suits your CPU setup best), and try it out on your own. > Nor can I remember how you did the sound test on your lap top, I > neglected to note it down. I logged in as the root user, and then run "sndconfig". Everything else just works with no fuss. Sorry to hear about the problems, anyway. -- Cheers, It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. Rick Moen It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, rick@ The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning, linuxmafia.com It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. From skiffworks@earthlink.net Sun Dec 08 07:43:18 2002 Received: from grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.46]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18L3aO-0005Xr-00 for ; Sun, 08 Dec 2002 07:43:16 -0800 Received: from cpe-24-221-189-101.ca.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.189.101] helo=localhost.localdomain) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18L3Sp-00061U-00 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Sun, 08 Dec 2002 07:35:27 -0800 From: Bill Stoye To: Conspire Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.5 Date: 08 Dec 2002 07:35:49 -0800 Message-Id: <1039361757.498.87.camel@skiffworks> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: [conspire] Oops Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 220 Lines: 9 Oops! I said, "what to change in /etc/lilo.conf and with what, xterm or text editor lynx..." Sorry for that line, it should read Nano not Lynx and I would use Nano but I still don't know what changes to make. Bill From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Dec 08 14:11:30 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18L9e5-0000Uu-00 for ; Sun, 08 Dec 2002 14:11:29 -0800 Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 14:11:29 -0800 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Soundconfig: Message-ID: <20021208221129.GD29177@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 5958 Lines: 133 Bill's comment in a separate post makes clear that he meant to send the message below to the list, rather than to my private mail. So, I'm fixing that by lobbing a copy to the list. Bill, I notice that you use Ximian Evolution. Like any mailer of the last couple of decades, it includes the _two_ standard reply functions, Reply-to-Sender (Ctrl-R) and Reply-to-All (Ctrl-Shift-R). In any MUA with those two choices, on mailing lists you should accustom yourself to _always_ doing Reply-to-All as your default action. The exception should be when you wish to deliberately go off-list. Then and only then, use Reply-to-Sender (which is what you called "reply"). The message below was sent to me alone, because you used Reply-to-Sender by mistake. Happily, Evolution (like mutt) also has a third reply mode, tailored for even better results specifically on mailing lists, Reply-to-List. You'll have to consult your documentation on how exactly it works in Evolution. (I'm a mutt user.) ----- Forwarded message from Bill Stoye ----- Subject: Re: [conspire] Soundconfig: From: Bill Stoye To: Rick Moen X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.5 Date: 08 Dec 2002 06:44:56 -0800 I have to concede, I'm over my head. In a moment of wild abandonment, I used Synaptic to get 'kernel-image-2.4-686'; I freaked when I received the Error/warning message with special instructions to make changes to Lilo; I'm at a loss as to what to change in /etc/lilo.conf and with what, xterm or text editor lynx... apparently not lynx it gives me a can't open start file. Sorry for the delay in response, I needed a break, trying to prevent burnout. I was hoping I could get Debian going but maybe I need to go to a distro like Libranet. Thank you for your help Rick, Bill On Tue, 2002-12-03 at 22:30, Rick Moen wrote: > Hi, Bill! > > Quoting Bill Stoye (skiffworks@earthlink.net): > > > I got and ran 'sndconfig' as you suggested, it finished > > without any errors but I must still be missing/not understanding > > something; during shutdown a message scrolls up saying: Starting ALSA > > sound driver (version none): modprobe: can't locate module snd failed. > > > > When I retry sndconfig I get the following: > > > > ERROR: No Sound Modules found > > You don't seem to be running a kernel with modular > > sound enabled. (soundcore.o was not found in the > > module search path). > > To use sndconfig, you must be running a kernel with > > modular sound, such as the kernel shipped with Red Hat > > Linux or a 2.2 or greater kernel. > > > > Looked up the following: > > skiffworks:/home/bill# uname -r > > 2.2.20-idepci > > Well, the "idepci" series of precompiled kernels are deliberately very > pared down, so it's not really surprising that sound drivers are among > the things left out. (The idea of the "idepci" ones is that you might > need a kernel that omits support for some troublesome hardware in order > to successfully complete installation, otherwise the installer's attempt > to probe for those hardware components might freeze the installation > attempt. The idea is that you'd replace the limited-drivers kernel > afterwards with either a more-suitable precompiled kernel or a custom > one that you compile for yourself.) > > The Debian 3.0-based laptop computer in front of me has > "kernel-image-2.4.18-bf2.4". The "boot-flavour 2.4" packages are one of > the many precompiled Debian kernels that include sound drivers. You can > find others by looking through the available-packages catalogues (the > *Packages ones) in your /var/lib/apt/lists/ directory -- or use a GUI > tool like aptitude, synaptic, or whatever you prefer. > > You might do better with one of the _very_ standard procompiled kernels, > like: > > kernel-image-2.4-686 (for PPro/Celeron/PII/PIII/PIV machines) > kernel-image-2.4-686-smp (for PPro/Celeron/PII/PIII/PIV SMP machines) > kernel-image-2.4-k6 (for AMD K6/K6-II/K6-III machines) > kernel-image-2.4-k7 (for AMD K7/Athlon/Duron/Thunderbird machines) > kernel-image-2.4-k7-smp (for AMD K7/Athlon/Duron/Thunderbird SMP machines) > > Any of those can be installed via apt-get. If you do, be very careful > to follow any special instructions you see at that time, e.g., changes > to /etc/lilo.conf . (At the minimum, take care to leave a paragraph > in /etc/lilo.conf for your old 2.2.20-idepci kernel, so you can reboot > using it, in the event your 2.4.x one has problems.) > > > I have been trying since July 28th., when I first installed Debian to > > get sound running; It seems a long way off but I think I would like to > > bring my PC to the meeting the 2nd weekend of December and elicit your > > help if I may. > > Of course you're welcome to. Should be no big problem, I expect. Or > you might want to do "apt-get install kernel-image-2.4-686" (or whatever > version suits your CPU setup best), and try it out on your own. > > > Nor can I remember how you did the sound test on your lap top, I > > neglected to note it down. > > I logged in as the root user, and then run "sndconfig". Everything else > just works with no fuss. > > Sorry to hear about the problems, anyway. > > -- > Cheers, It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > Rick Moen It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, > rick@ The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning, > linuxmafia.com It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > > _______________________________________________ > conspire mailing list > conspire@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire ----- End forwarded message ----- From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Dec 08 15:26:46 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18LAow-0006Mc-00 for ; Sun, 08 Dec 2002 15:26:46 -0800 Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 15:26:46 -0800 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Soundconfig: Message-ID: <20021208232645.GE29177@linuxmafia.com> References: <20021208221129.GD29177@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021208221129.GD29177@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 6249 Lines: 146 Quoting Bill Stoye : > In a moment of wild abandonment, I used Synaptic to get > 'kernel-image-2.4-686'; I freaked when I received the Error/warning > message with special instructions to make changes to Lilo; I'm at a loss > as to what to change in /etc/lilo.conf and with what, xterm or text > editor nano.... At the time I wrote to you the first time, I only vaguely remembered the necessary details, so that's why I said (earlier): If you do, be very careful to follow any special instructions you see at that time, e.g., changes to /etc/lilo.conf . (At the minimum, take care to leave a paragraph in /etc/lilo.conf for your old 2.2.20-idepci kernel, so you can reboot using it, in the event your 2.4.x one has problems.) Apologies for not being more specific, but I couldn't remember at the time precisely what tweak you have to make to lilo. I _do_ remember, now, and you can probably find it in /usr/share/doc/kernel-image-2.4-686/LiloDefault.gz . (Use the "zless" tool to read such files.) Let me quote what _my_ 2.4.x Debian kernel's LiloDefault.gz file says on that subject, and then explain it to you in plain English, immediately afterwards: Recent official kernel image packages (starting with 2.4.X) have started installing initrd images. If you install one of these official images, you now have to provide lilo with a pointer to the respective initrd bootimage. Assuming that you are installing kernel 2.4.X-flavour, you need to add something like this to the lilo.conf: initrd=/boot/initrd-2.4.X-flavour ("initrd" stands for "initial RAMdisk".) OK, the plain English: In the old days, we didn't make much use of _modules_ for hardware driver software in our kernels. (A "module" is a hunk of code that's been compiled so that it can be dynamically loaded or unloaded from RAM by the running kernel, so that it's present if needed and removed from RAM if it isn't.) If we bought (e.g.) a new sound card, we just compiled a fresh kernel that included the necessary driver in the kernel image -- as part of a "monolithic" (non-modular) kernel. With the (now rather old) 2.2 kernel series, support for modular drivers in Linux improved greatly, and the Debian Project was one of the groups that adopted modular kernels most enthusiastically: If you look under /lib/modules, you'll find large trees of kernel modules, classified by category, for practically any conceivable hardware and for many other optional kernel features. This is why Debian (and many other distributions) has been able to install on such a wide range of hardware. When the 2.4 kernels came around, the Debian people decided to use a newly improved feature called the "initial RAMdisk" (initrd). The idea is that, in the early stages of the boot process, lilo (or any similar bootloader) will tell the booting kernel about the physical disk location of a RAMdisk image file that the kernel is to decompress into RAM and mount as a small RAMdisk, as the initial root filesystem. The RAMdisk contains extremely crucial hardware drivers such as those for your hard disk's host adapter and for certain key filesystem types (such as ext2). After pulling whatever drivers it needs from the RAMdisk, the kernel deallocates that RAM and mounts the _real_ root filesystem. Anyhow, for this to work, you have to make sure lilo knows where the RAMdisk image file is, so it can inform the booting kernel. To understand that, you might benefit from my "Zen of lilo" speech: A lot of people never learned the Zen of LILO: 1. /sbin/lilo (the "map installer") is best thought of as a compiler, and /etc/lilo.conf as its source code. 2. Therefore, if you change /etc/lilo.conf or any of the files it points to, you must run /sbin/lilo before rebooting, to "recompile". 3. You should always have a "safeboot" stanza in /etc/lilo, pointing to a known-good kernel image that you never fool with, as a fallback. This ensures that if, e.g., you compile a new kernel but accidentally omit console support, you can easily recover. If you look at your existing /etc/lilo.conf, you'll find that it's so cluttered with comment lines (starting with "#") that it's difficult to grasp. That's too bad. To fix this, I recommend you do: $ su - # cd /etc # cp lilo.conf lilo.conf-COMMENTED Then, pare down the original lilo.conf (using nano or whatever) to eliminate the comment clutter. Here's an example lilo.conf _without_ the comments, and with an "initrd" line suitable to my laptop's configuration: lba32 boot=/dev/hda root=/dev/hda3 install=menu map=/boot/map delay=20 vga=normal default=Linux image=/boot/vmlinuz label=linux initrd=/boot/initrd.img-2.4.18-686 read-only image=/boot/vmlinuz.old label=linuxold read-only The message you got was trying to tell you to insert an "initrd" line similar to the above, in the lilo.conf stanza for your new 2.4 kernel. If you _don't_ do that (and don't run /sbin/lilo afterwards, to implement the change), then the booting 2.4 kernel won't be able to find the drivers in the RAMdisk (because it won't know about the RAMdisk), and so won't be able to subsequently do things that require those drivers, such as find your root filesystem. The kernel package's installer script isn't smart enough to figure out every variation of lilo.conf contents, at least not well enough to edit it without your help, so, instead, it tells you what should be done and leaves it up to you. OK? I hope that helps. > Sorry for the delay in response, I needed a break, trying to prevent > burnout. I was hoping I could get Debian going but maybe I need to go to > a distro like Libranet. One nice thing about the Libranet installer is that it installs a 2.4 kernel with the necessary initrd line already in place. On the other hand, so do the many _Debian_ installers that install directly onto 2.4-based setups. (When installing Debian, look for "boot flavours", and pick the "bf2.4" flavour.) -- Cheers, The Viking's Reminder: Rick Moen Pillage first, _then_ burn. rick@linuxmafia.com From skiffworks@earthlink.net Mon Dec 09 08:01:24 2002 Received: from conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.54]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18LQLR-0000ZB-00 for ; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 08:01:22 -0800 Received: from cpe-24-221-189-101.ca.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.189.101] helo=localhost.localdomain) by conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18LQDk-0000xq-00 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 07:53:24 -0800 Subject: Re: [conspire] Soundconfig: From: Bill Stoye To: Conspire In-Reply-To: <20021208232645.GE29177@linuxmafia.com> References: <20021208221129.GD29177@linuxmafia.com> <20021208232645.GE29177@linuxmafia.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.5 Date: 09 Dec 2002 07:53:57 -0800 Message-Id: <1039449237.492.95.camel@skiffworks> Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 7649 Lines: 183 Scary thought but I may be starting to understand some of this. I understand what I need to do and with what; confusion still lies around when to do it, what step to make the change to 'lilo.conf' and what kernel should I be actually trying to install; should it be 2.4.18 and do I need -smp? Did: skiffworks:/lib/modules# ls 2.2.20-idepci 2.4.16-686-smp Synaptic shows 2.4.16-686-smp not installed, so the process, I believe is negated when when a error comes up during the installation. Another topic: I'm able to use 'zless' but when I try to use less I get no such command. skiffworks:~# man less No manual entry for less I thought less was more! Does xterm not have that command? Thank you for the background/lead in to making the changes to lilo.conf, it helps me get a grasp on what is going on, rather than just mimicking a input where I would learn to mimic, not understand. Bill On Sun, 2002-12-08 at 15:26, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Bill Stoye : > > > In a moment of wild abandonment, I used Synaptic to get > > 'kernel-image-2.4-686'; I freaked when I received the Error/warning > > message with special instructions to make changes to Lilo; I'm at a loss > > as to what to change in /etc/lilo.conf and with what, xterm or text > > editor nano.... > > At the time I wrote to you the first time, I only vaguely remembered > the necessary details, so that's why I said (earlier): > > If you do, be very careful to follow any special instructions you > see at that time, e.g., changes to /etc/lilo.conf . (At the > minimum, take care to leave a paragraph in /etc/lilo.conf for your > old 2.2.20-idepci kernel, so you can reboot using it, in the event > your 2.4.x one has problems.) > > Apologies for not being more specific, but I couldn't remember at the > time precisely what tweak you have to make to lilo. I _do_ remember, > now, and you can probably find it in > /usr/share/doc/kernel-image-2.4-686/LiloDefault.gz . (Use the "zless" > tool to read such files.) > > Let me quote what _my_ 2.4.x Debian kernel's LiloDefault.gz file says on > that subject, and then explain it to you in plain English, immediately > afterwards: > > Recent official kernel image packages (starting with 2.4.X) have > started installing initrd images. If you install one of these > official images, you now have to provide lilo with a pointer to the > respective initrd bootimage. Assuming that you are installing kernel > 2.4.X-flavour, you need to add something like this to the lilo.conf: > > initrd=/boot/initrd-2.4.X-flavour > > ("initrd" stands for "initial RAMdisk".) > > OK, the plain English: > > In the old days, we didn't make much use of _modules_ for hardware > driver software in our kernels. (A "module" is a hunk of code that's > been compiled so that it can be dynamically loaded or unloaded from RAM > by the running kernel, so that it's present if needed and removed from > RAM if it isn't.) If we bought (e.g.) a new sound card, we just > compiled a fresh kernel that included the necessary driver in the kernel > image -- as part of a "monolithic" (non-modular) kernel. > > With the (now rather old) 2.2 kernel series, support for modular drivers > in Linux improved greatly, and the Debian Project was one of the groups > that adopted modular kernels most enthusiastically: If you look under > /lib/modules, you'll find large trees of kernel modules, classified by > category, for practically any conceivable hardware and for many other > optional kernel features. This is why Debian (and many other > distributions) has been able to install on such a wide range of > hardware. > > When the 2.4 kernels came around, the Debian people decided to use a > newly improved feature called the "initial RAMdisk" (initrd). The idea > is that, in the early stages of the boot process, lilo (or any similar > bootloader) will tell the booting kernel about the physical disk > location of a RAMdisk image file that the kernel is to decompress into > RAM and mount as a small RAMdisk, as the initial root filesystem. The > RAMdisk contains extremely crucial hardware drivers such as those for > your hard disk's host adapter and for certain key filesystem types (such as > ext2). After pulling whatever drivers it needs from the RAMdisk, the > kernel deallocates that RAM and mounts the _real_ root filesystem. > > Anyhow, for this to work, you have to make sure lilo knows where the > RAMdisk image file is, so it can inform the booting kernel. > > To understand that, you might benefit from my "Zen of lilo" speech: > > A lot of people never learned the Zen of LILO: > > 1. /sbin/lilo (the "map installer") is best thought of as a compiler, > and /etc/lilo.conf as its source code. > 2. Therefore, if you change /etc/lilo.conf or any of the files it > points to, you must run /sbin/lilo before rebooting, to "recompile". > 3. You should always have a "safeboot" stanza in /etc/lilo, pointing > to a known-good kernel image that you never fool with, as a > fallback. This ensures that if, e.g., you compile a new kernel but > accidentally omit console support, you can easily recover. > > If you look at your existing /etc/lilo.conf, you'll find that it's so > cluttered with comment lines (starting with "#") that it's difficult to > grasp. That's too bad. To fix this, I recommend you do: > > $ su - > # cd /etc > # cp lilo.conf lilo.conf-COMMENTED > > Then, pare down the original lilo.conf (using nano or whatever) to > eliminate the comment clutter. > > Here's an example lilo.conf _without_ the comments, and with an "initrd" > line suitable to my laptop's configuration: > > lba32 > boot=/dev/hda > root=/dev/hda3 > install=menu > map=/boot/map > delay=20 > vga=normal > default=Linux > > image=/boot/vmlinuz > label=linux > initrd=/boot/initrd.img-2.4.18-686 > read-only > > image=/boot/vmlinuz.old > label=linuxold > read-only > > > The message you got was trying to tell you to insert an "initrd" line > similar to the above, in the lilo.conf stanza for your new 2.4 kernel. > If you _don't_ do that (and don't run /sbin/lilo afterwards, to > implement the change), then the booting 2.4 kernel won't be able to find > the drivers in the RAMdisk (because it won't know about the RAMdisk), > and so won't be able to subsequently do things that require those > drivers, such as find your root filesystem. > > The kernel package's installer script isn't smart enough to figure out > every variation of lilo.conf contents, at least not well enough to edit > it without your help, so, instead, it tells you what should be done and > leaves it up to you. > > OK? I hope that helps. > > > Sorry for the delay in response, I needed a break, trying to prevent > > burnout. I was hoping I could get Debian going but maybe I need to go to > > a distro like Libranet. > > One nice thing about the Libranet installer is that it installs a 2.4 > kernel with the necessary initrd line already in place. On the other > hand, so do the many _Debian_ installers that install directly onto > 2.4-based setups. (When installing Debian, look for "boot flavours", > and pick the "bf2.4" flavour.) > > -- > Cheers, The Viking's Reminder: > Rick Moen Pillage first, _then_ burn. > rick@linuxmafia.com > > _______________________________________________ > conspire mailing list > conspire@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire From rick@linuxmafia.com Mon Dec 09 10:28:56 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18LSeF-00048L-00 for ; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 10:28:55 -0800 Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 10:28:44 -0800 To: Conspire Subject: Re: [conspire] Soundconfig: Message-ID: <20021209182843.GZ29177@linuxmafia.com> References: <20021208221129.GD29177@linuxmafia.com> <20021208232645.GE29177@linuxmafia.com> <1039449237.492.95.camel@skiffworks> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1039449237.492.95.camel@skiffworks> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 15220 Lines: 385 Quoting Bill Stoye (skiffworks@earthlink.net): > Scary thought but I may be starting to understand some of this. Yes, I know the feeling. Some of us have the unfair advantage that we started using this stuff when it was less elaborate (if somewhat more user-hostile). But that at least puts us old-timers in a pretty good position to explain it. > I understand what I need to do and with what; confusion still lies > around when to do it, what step to make the change to 'lilo.conf' and > what kernel should I be actually trying to install; should it be 2.4.18 > and do I need -smp? I'll give you a stereotypically techie-type literal-minded answer first, and then try to put it in context. Ready? Techie/gearhead answer: Sure, you can use 2.4.18. Or 2.4.19. You can use -smp variants of the numerous precompiled kernels if your machine has more than one CPU. ("SMP" stands for symmetric multiprocessing, which is the way of dividing tasks among multiple CPUs on modern operating systems.) The change you should make to lilo.conf is to insert an "initrd=" line in the paragraph that describes your 2.4 kernel, e.g., initrd=/boot/initrd.img-2.4.18-686 And then, you should (as the root user) run "/sbin/lilo -v" to implement the change, checking the output to make sure it doesn't complain that anything can't be found. /sbin/lilo is the program that actually writes boot information to bootable areas of your hard disk, following the instructions you've provided for it in /etc/lilo.conf. It's vital that you not shut down or reboot until /sbin/lilo gives you error-free output. The "-v" just means verbose output, where it babbles about all the pieces it finds, looking up their file locations in lilo.conf, and tells you all about what it writes at the end. Probably-more-useful, in-context answer: Let's discuss the "SMP" thing, first. And the "-686" thing. The Debian package mirrors provide quite a diverse set of precompiled kernels, suitable for various types of hardware. Some PCs have multiple CPUs -- usually two, but (on i386-class) sometimes as many as eight, in some rackmount servers. The old Dell laptop in front of me ("guido") is a uniprocessor (one CPU) machine. You can find out about this (in Linux) by doing this: guido:~# cat /proc/cpuinfo processor : 0 vendor_id : GenuineIntel cpu family : 6 model : 6 model name : Mobile Pentium II stepping : 10 cpu MHz : 366.679 cache size : 256 KB fdiv_bug : no hlt_bug : no f00f_bug : no coma_bug : no fpu : yes fpu_exception : yes cpuid level : 2 wp : yes flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat p se36 mmx fxsr bogomips : 732.36 guido:~# In other words, it's a 366 MHz PII uniprocessor box. So, I would _not_ want to install a -smp kernel variant, and I'd want to make sure I installed one compiled with compiler optimisations for something approaching a PII. Now, you have synaptic handy to browse available-package listings. Please do so, to follow along. I personally prefer to page through the available-package listings directly, in either /var/lib/apt/lists/*Packages or /var/lib/dpkg/available . These are pure text files, as is your installed-packages database, /var/lib/dpkg/status. (Sometimes, it makes sense to fix glitches in Debian package handling by snipping something out of /var/lib/dpkg/status using a text editor!) I'm going to do: guido:~# less /var/lib/apt/lists/http.us.debian.org_debian_dists_testing_main_binary-i386_Packages (I know you don't have the "less" utility installed. I'll be getting to that in a minute.) I'm skipping forward (searching) to the first line that starts with "Package: kernel-image-2.4...." You can do the analogous lookup in synaptic, if you like. Ah! Here we have a bunch of them. (I'm on the Debian-testing branch. You didn't specify, but I'd guess you're on Debian-stable = 3.0 = woody, so you might not see some of these.) kernel-image-2.4-386 kernel-image-2.4-586tsc kernel-image-2.4-686 kernel-image-2.4-686-smp kernel-image-2.4-k6 kernel-image-2.4-k7 kernel-image-2.4-k7-smp kernel-image-2.4.18-386 kernel-image-2.4.18-586tsc kernel-image-2.4.18-686 kernel-image-2.4.18-686-smp kernel-image-2.4.18-bf2.4 kernel-image-2.4.18-k6 kernel-image-2.4.18-k7 kernel-image-2.4.19-386 kernel-image-2.4.19-586tsc kernel-image-2.4.19-686 kernel-image-2.4.19-686-smp kernel-image-2.4.19-k6 kernel-image-2.4.19-k7 kernel-image-2.4.19-k7-smp What are all of these? You have to read the descriptions. Notice that the first seven don't seem to have complete kernel version numbers: They just say "2.4". Let's look at the description for "kernel-image-2.4-686" (because it turns out to be a pretty good choice for PII uniprocessor boxes): Description: Linux kernel image 2.4 on PPro/Celeron/PII/PIII/PIV. This package will always depend on the latest 2.4 kernel image available for PPro/Celeron/PII/PIII/PIV machines. Above the description, one of the lines is: Depends: kernel-image-2.4.19-686 I just wanted to call your attention to that, to point out one of the simultaneously gratifying and infuriating things about Debian: One fine morning, you wake up and suddenly notice an utterly cool aspect of how Debian is working on your machine. You're pretty sure it didn't use to work that way, and nobody told you about it, but suddenly it's there. If you were to hassle the Debian developers about this lack of information, they'd probably say "Hey man, leave us alone. We're busy coding, and don't have time to spoon-feed you information." Whatever. Anyhow, if you install package "kernel-image-2.4-686", you'll get kernel-image-2.4.19-686 _today_, and will automatically progress up to kernel-image-2.4.nn-686, as nn goes to 20, 21, and on up -- whenever prepackaged kernels for those versions appear on the Debian package mirrors and you do an "apt-get update" and "apt-get dist-upgrade" session (or the synaptic equivalent). Now: You said you instructed synaptic to get you "kernel-image-2.4-686". You quite sensibly balked when you were advised to perform some surgery on /etc/lilo.conf that you didn't understand, and presumably you interrupted installation of that package. You also said: > Did: > skiffworks:/lib/modules# ls > 2.2.20-idepci 2.4.16-686-smp > > Synaptic shows 2.4.16-686-smp not installed, so the process, I believe > is negated when when a error comes up during the installation. So, I'm guessing that package "kernel-image-2.4-686" is a virtual package that (on the Debian-stable branch, right?) is set to retrieve physical package "kernel-image-2.4.18" or "kernel-image-2.4.19". You can/should check this for yourself, by reading the full package description for "kernel-image-2.4-686" in synaptic. I suspect that /lib/modules/2.4.16-686-smp is a leftover from some completely unrelated prior misadventure with kernel installations. At least, I can't otherwise imagine where that "-smp" came from, or why you'd have module pieces for a 2.4.16 kernel. Now, you should ask yourself: (1) Should I be using uniprocessor kernels or SMP? (2) Which compiler optimisation is appropriate for my machine: plain old 386, Pentium, PPro and above, K6, or Athlon? You presumably know what's inside your box; I don't. The safest but lower-performance choice is 386 optimisation. Every 386-or-later CPU will do that. It's what was used to compile your "2.2.20-idepci" kernel. Let's say that you have a uniprocessor PII-class machine (like my laptop). Then, you might tell synaptic to install "kernel-image-2.4-686" (which, in fact, you did -- but interrupted it). That will fetch the latest uniprocessor 2.4.x kernel image compiled for PPro (686) or higher. It's also going to install a file with a name like "initrd.img-2.4.18-686" in /boot. This is the matching initrd image, containing the most-crucial drivers for that kernel. > Another topic: > I'm able to use 'zless' but when I try to use less I get no such > command. > > skiffworks:~# man less > No manual entry for less Hmm, let's see what "zless" really is: guido:~# which zless /bin/zless OK, that's where it is. Now, let's see what type of file it is: guido:~# file $(which zless) /bin/zless: Bourne shell script text executable OK, it's a shell script (like a DOS batch file). Let's see its contents: guido:~# cat $(which zless) #!/bin/sh PATH="/usr/bin:$PATH"; export PATH LESSOPEN="|gzip -cdfq %s"; export LESSOPEN exec less "$@" Well, it appears that, quite understandably, "zless" just gunzips a file and pipes the output to "less". That's what I thought it was. Let's have a look at "less". First, where is it? guido:~# which less /usr/bin/less Now, what type of file is it? guido:~# file $(which less) /usr/bin/less: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (SYSV), for GNU/Linux 2.2.0, dynamically linked (uses shared libs), stripped That's also pretty predictable: It's a regular dynamic binary executable. But you say "less" isn't found on your system? How odd. Well, you can and should use synaptic to install it. (Me, I just type "apt-get install less" at the command line. One thing about Debian systems that tends to make them confusing to newcomers: Everything's at least potentially a la carte: If the person who constructed the system didn't want to install "less", then it probably isn't there. But it's dead easy to add anything initially omitted, that you later decide you want. The tough part is often realising that you're missing something in the first place. > I thought less was more! Does xterm not have that command? In the first place, you probably mean "bash", not xterm. xterm isn't a shell; it's just a mechanism to display shells under X11. The shell you're seeing/using in xterm is almost certainly bash, because that tends to be users' default shell, on Linux. So, to answer that question, no, less is not a shell builtin function. Neither is the "more" command. Only a few commands you commonly use are builtins, such as cd, alias, echo, exec, exit, export, fg, jobs, kill, pwd, and set. If "less" really isn't installed on your system, you should install it. (It's a little mysterious how zless could work without it, though. If you're curious about that, you could repeat the steps I listed above on your system, to investigate.) Anyhow, returning to your main problem: The thing to do is to make sure there's a paragraph in /etc/lilo.conf for your new 2.4 kernel, and that it includes an "initrd=" line pointing to the matching initrd* line in /boot. Ideally, the paragraph for your 2.4 kernel should be in _addition_ to the one for your 2.2 kernel, so that, if anything goes wildly wrong at reboot time with your 2.4 kernel, you can fall back to the 2.2 one instead of having to repair a suddenly non-bootable system. Once again, here's my laptop's lilo.conf file: lba32 boot=/dev/hda root=/dev/hda3 install=menu map=/boot/map delay=20 vga=normal default=linux image=/boot/vmlinuz label=linux initrd=/boot/initrd.img-2.4.18-686 read-only image=/boot/vmlinuz.old label=linuxold read-only Notice the two stanzas (paragraphs)? The second one, label=linuxold, is my fallback, safety stanza. When I first installed a 2.4 kernel, you bet your booty that it pointed to a known-good 2.2 kernel! /boot/vmlinuz.old is a symbolic link on my system, which I re-point from time to time, to a known-good kernel. Similarly, /boot/vmlinuz is also a symlink, which I point to the kernel I've most recently installed and _hope_ will be usable and not break anything. Another level of caution: Before you start editing lilo.conf, do this: $ su - # cd /etc # cp lilo.conf lilo-conf-KNOWN-GOOD Now, you can fool around with lilo.conf to your heart's content, knowing that you can always restore the original contents, if need be. The iron rule of lilo is: _Always_ verify that /sbin/lilo runs without error, before rebooting or shutting down. Here's my laptop's "/sbin/lilo" output without the "-v" (verbose) flag: guido:~# lilo Added linux * Added linuxold guido:~/# Here it is with "-v": guido:~# lilo -v LILO version 22.3.3, Copyright (C) 1992-1998 Werner Almesberger Development beyond version 21 Copyright (C) 1999-2002 John Coffman Released 30-Aug-2002 and compiled at 15:38:21 on Sep 1 2002. Reading boot sector from /dev/hda Using MENU secondary loader Calling map_insert_data Boot image: /boot/vmlinuz -> vmlinuz-2.4.18-bf2.4 Mapping RAM disk /boot/initrd.img-2.4.18-686 Added linux * Boot image: /boot/vmlinuz.old -> vmlinuz-2.4.18-bf2.4 Added linuxold /boot/boot.0300 exists - no backup copy made. Writing boot sector. guido:~# (The "no backup made" sounds alarming, but is a harmless advisory.) Notice that it babbles about all the pieces that it locates, based on their declared locations in /etc/lilo.conf. If it had been unable to find any of those components, it would have complained. (Actually, /sbin/lilo attempts to failsafe in such cases, by stopping immediately if it can't find something mentioned in lilo.conf . But you might still have a problem if this leaves you without a valid boot configuration.) Now, if you examine the above output closely, you'll notice something odd: At the moment, my "label=linux" and "label=linuxold" stanzas actually point to the same 2.4.18-bf2.4 kernel image. This is because I recently came to have enough faith in this kernel that I threw away my old 2.2 kernel and related modules, just to save space. But I wanted the fallback mechanism to be still there for the _next_ time I play with new kernels, so I repointed the /boot/vmlinuz.old symlink to the 2.4 kernel image file. Next time I install a new kernel, I'll point the /boot/vmlinuz symlink to it, but not /boot/vmlinuz.old. I hope that makes sense. You'll probably find that your existing /etc/lilo.conf refers to stuff in the system root directory, e.g., symlinks /vmlinuz and /vmlinuz.old . I object to such clutter in my root directory, and so moved those to /boot and edited /etc/lilo.conf accordingly. > Thank you for the background/lead in to making the changes to lilo.conf, > it helps me get a grasp on what is going on, rather than just mimicking > a input where I would learn to mimic, not understand. Statements like the above are why I take the trouble. It's always a pleasure to see people "getting it". If you ever need to consult my little "Zen of lilo" piece (the three brief rules that keep you out of trouble, and help you understand the little thing), it's at: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/zen-of-lilo It's something I wrote to answer a question sent to the Linux Gazette Answer Gang, and is also included in the latest (Dec. 2002) LG issue: http://www.linuxgazette.com/ -- Cheers, There are only 10 types of people in this world -- Rick Moen those who understand binary arithmetic and those who don't. rick@linuxmafia.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Mon Dec 09 11:20:30 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18LTS9-00061M-00 for ; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 11:20:29 -0800 Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 11:20:29 -0800 From: Rick Moen To: Conspire Subject: Re: [conspire] Soundconfig: Message-ID: <20021209192029.GA29177@linuxmafia.com> References: <20021208221129.GD29177@linuxmafia.com> <20021208232645.GE29177@linuxmafia.com> <1039449237.492.95.camel@skiffworks> <20021209182843.GZ29177@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021209182843.GZ29177@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 4772 Lines: 109 Just a couple of afterthoughts (corrections and comments): > Once again, here's my laptop's lilo.conf file: > > lba32 > boot=/dev/hda > root=/dev/hda3 > install=menu > map=/boot/map > delay=20 > vga=normal > default=linux > > image=/boot/vmlinuz > label=linux > initrd=/boot/initrd.img-2.4.18-686 > read-only > > image=/boot/vmlinuz.old > label=linuxold > read-only The attentive reader will have noticed that I screwed up, big time: Although the "label=linux" has the necessary initrd reference, the "label=linuxold" one, my _safety fallback_ stanza, lacks it. This is an artifact of my having thrown out my old 2.2 kernel only a few days ago, and having done a half-assed job of cleaning up. That stanza worked beautifully with the 2.2 kernel, which did _not_ depend on an initial RAMdisk. I left that stanza alone while checking the 2.4 kernel, to ensure that the latter booted correctly and supported all hardware. Then, I blew away the 2.2 kernel, repointed the "vmlinuz.old" symlink to the 2.4 kernel image, re-ran "/sbin/lilo -v" to make sure there were no errors, and quit. In fact, the above lilo.conf file would eventually have bit me in the ass, if I'd not noticed my error in time: If I'd tried a new kernel using the "label=linux" stanza and it turned out not to work, I would have found out that my "safety fallback" was not safe, and failed to fall back. (Fortunately, it's not difficult to recover with a maintenance floppy or LNX-BBC disk or such, even if you screw up lilo.) I really should have made sure that _both_ stanzas actually booted, before quitting my reconfiguration of lilo. (I've fixed it, for now, by moving the "initrd" line into the globals section above the boot stanzas, where it will apply to both stanzas. And then, of course, I re-ran /sbin/lilo.) The attentive reader who also read my earlier post from the other day will have noticed that I pulled a fast one in the above /etc/lilo.conf contents: The version above says "default=linux", while the one I posted yesterday said "default=Linux". Note the difference in capitalisation. lilo.conf's "default" line specifies which stanza to use as the default boot. You can have "default=foo", where foo is one of the "label=" items. If there is no "default=" line, then the first stanza will be the default. Debian's default lilo.conf gets initially constructed with _one_ stanza, whose label is "Linux" (capital-L "Linux"). Rather absurdly since there's only one stanza, they also put "default=Linux" in there. I decided that it's rather silly to have to use a shift key to type in a label name at LILO boot prompts, so I changed the stanza's label to "linux" (lowercase-L linux). However, I forgot to update the "default=Linux" line. Fortunately, /sbin/lilo seems to ignore such a line if it doesn't match any of the included stanzas' labels. I suddenly noticed the error this morning, while answering Bill's post, and fixed it on the fly. I'm mentioning it now in case anyone was confused by the earlier lilo.conf post, or by the silent fix since then. > Now, you can fool around with lilo.conf to your heart's content, knowing > that you can always restore the original contents, if need be. > > The iron rule of lilo is: _Always_ verify that /sbin/lilo runs without > error, before rebooting or shutting down. I do _not_ mean by the above that you must do so before _any_ shutdown or reboot -- just that you should do that if you've made any changes to lilo.conf or the files it points to. The whole purpose of /sbin/lilo is to look up the _physical_ disk locations (cylinders, heads, sectors per track) of all the objects mentioned in lilo.conf, and write bootable information to a special hard disk location read during the boot process, such that the needed kernel image, map, initial RAMdisk, and so on can be found from their _physical_ locations alone, by a kernel that doesn't yet know how to read filesystems or read directory trees. The booting kernel thereby gains access to sets of drivers that furnish those missing abilities, allowing it to then mount the root filesystem, start the init process, and so on. If you move any of the objects that must be found at boot time, then the physical-location information previously written to the special boot-time hard disk location by /sbin/lilo will be obsolete and in need of updating. Thus the need to re-run /sbin/lilo. Ditto if you make revisions/additions to the lilo.conf file: Those simply won't be implemented until you re-run /sbin/lilo. I hope the above makes matters a little clearer. -- Cheers, The shortest distance between two puns is a straightline. Rick Moen rick@linuxmafia.com From skiffworks@earthlink.net Wed Dec 11 05:11:03 2002 Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.50]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18M6dj-0003xn-00 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 05:11:03 -0800 Received: from cpe-24-221-189-101.ca.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.189.101] helo=localhost.localdomain) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18M6W2-0000Bz-00 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 05:03:06 -0800 Subject: Re: [conspire] Soundconfig: From: Bill Stoye To: Conspire In-Reply-To: <20021209182843.GZ29177@linuxmafia.com> References: <20021208221129.GD29177@linuxmafia.com> <20021208232645.GE29177@linuxmafia.com> <1039449237.492.95.camel@skiffworks> <20021209182843.GZ29177@linuxmafia.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.5 Date: 11 Dec 2002 05:03:38 -0800 Message-Id: <1039611823.473.75.camel@skiffworks> Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 21039 Lines: 553 Running 'Woody'; Made change to /etc/lilo.conf; Using Synaptic, selected/installed kernel image 2.4.18-686; Testing lilo failed; Continued, figuring the fail was in vmlinuz.old, mustered up courage, reboot.... worked; Ran sndconfig and recieved, ERROR: No Sound Modules found; Did, uname -r (2.2.20-idepci)??? I don't know what to ask, I'm at a loss; a history of what was done is below, maybe more than needed but didn't know what to include or leave out. Failing miserably; Bill ***************************************************** You are attempting to install an initrd kernel image (version 2.4.18-686) This will not work unless you have configured your boot loader to use initrd. (An initrd image is a kernel image that expects to use an INITial Ram Disk to mount a minimal root file system into RAM and use that for booting). As a reminder, in order to configure lilo, you need to add an 'initrd=/initrd.img' to the image=/vmlinuz stanza of your /etc/lilo.conf I repeat, You need to configure your boot loader. If you have already done so, and you wish to get rid of this message, please put `do_initrd = Yes' in /etc/kernel-img.conf. Note that this is optional, but if you do not, you'll contitnue to see this message whenever you install a kernel image using initrd. Do you want to stop now? [Y/n]n Setting up kernel-image-2.4.18-686 (2.4.18-5) ... useful if you use a boot loader like lilo. Do you want me to create a link from /boot/initrd.img-2.4.18-686 to initrd.img?[Yn] y A new kernel image has been installed, and usually that means that some action has to be taken to make sure that the new kernel image is used next time the machine boots. Usually, this entails running a ``bootloader'' like SILO, loadlin, LILO, ELILO, QUIK, VMELILO, ZIPL, or booting from a floppy. (Some boot loader, like grub, for example, do not need to be run on each new image install, so please ignore this if you are using such a boot loader). A new kernel image has been installed. at /boot/vmlinuz-2.4.18-686 (Size: 618kB) Initial rootdisk image: /boot//initrd.img-2.4.18-686 (Size: ) Symbolic links, unless otherwise specified, can be found in / LILO sets up your system to boot Linux directly from your hard disk, without the need for booting from a boot floppy. WARNING If you are keeping another operating system or another version of Linux on a separate disk partition, you should not have LILO install a boot block now. Wait until you read the LILO documentation. That is because installing a boot block now might make the other system un-bootable. If you only want to run this version of Linux, go ahead and install the boot block here. If it does not work, you can still boot this system from a boot floppy. You already have a LILO configuration in /etc/lilo.conf Install a boot block using the existing /etc/lilo.conf? [Yes] Testing lilo.conf ... An error occurred while running lilo in test mode, a log is available in /var/log/lilo_log.1061. Please edit /etc/lilo.conf manually and re-run lilo, or make other arrangements to boot your machine. Please hit return to continue Finished. ********************************************* GNU nano 1.0.6 File: /var/log/lilo_log.1061 Added Linux * Fatal: open /boot/initrd.img-2.2.20-idepci: No such file or directory ****************************** GNU nano 1.0.6 File: /etc/lilo.conf lba32 boot=/dev/hda root=/dev/hda4 install=/boot/boot-menu.b map=/boot/map delay=20 prompt timeout=150 vga=normal default=Linux image=/vmlinuz label=Linux initrd=/boot/initrd.img-2.4.18-686 read-only image=/vmlinuz.old label=LinuxOLD initrd=/boot/initrd.img-2.2.20-idepci read-only optional other=/dev/hda1 label="Windows(hda1)" other=/dev/hda2 label="Linux(hda2)" ******************************************** skiffworks:/home/bill# /sbin/lilo -v LILO version 22.2, Copyright (C) 1992-1998 Werner Almesberger Development beyond version 21 Copyright (C) 1999-2001 John Coffman Released 05-Feb-2002 and compiled at 20:57:26 on Apr 13 2002. MAX_IMAGES = 27 Reading boot sector from /dev/hda Merging with /boot/boot-menu.b Boot image: /vmlinuz -> boot/vmlinuz-2.4.18-686 Mapping RAM disk /boot/initrd.img-2.4.18-686 Added Linux * Boot image: /vmlinuz.old -> boot/vmlinuz-2.2.20-idepci Mapping RAM disk /boot/initrd.img-2.2.20-idepci Fatal: open /boot/initrd.img-2.2.20-idepci: No such file or directory **************************** skiffworks:/lib/modules# ls 2.2.20-idepci 2.4.18-68 ********************* skiffworks:/home/bill# uname -r 2.2.20-idepci --END-- ********************************************** ********************************************** On Mon, 2002-12-09 at 10:28, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Bill Stoye (skiffworks@earthlink.net): > > > Scary thought but I may be starting to understand some of this. > > Yes, I know the feeling. Some of us have the unfair advantage that > we started using this stuff when it was less elaborate (if somewhat more > user-hostile). But that at least puts us old-timers in a pretty good > position to explain it. > > > I understand what I need to do and with what; confusion still lies > > around when to do it, what step to make the change to 'lilo.conf' and > > what kernel should I be actually trying to install; should it be 2.4.18 > > and do I need -smp? > > I'll give you a stereotypically techie-type literal-minded answer first, > and then try to put it in context. Ready? > > Techie/gearhead answer: > > Sure, you can use 2.4.18. Or 2.4.19. You can use -smp variants of the > numerous precompiled kernels if your machine has more than one CPU. > ("SMP" stands for symmetric multiprocessing, which is the way of > dividing tasks among multiple CPUs on modern operating systems.) > > The change you should make to lilo.conf is to insert an "initrd=" line > in the paragraph that describes your 2.4 kernel, e.g., > initrd=/boot/initrd.img-2.4.18-686 > > And then, you should (as the root user) run "/sbin/lilo -v" to implement > the change, checking the output to make sure it doesn't complain that > anything can't be found. /sbin/lilo is the program that actually writes > boot information to bootable areas of your hard disk, following the > instructions you've provided for it in /etc/lilo.conf. It's vital that > you not shut down or reboot until /sbin/lilo gives you error-free > output. The "-v" just means verbose output, where it babbles about all > the pieces it finds, looking up their file locations in lilo.conf, and > tells you all about what it writes at the end. > > Probably-more-useful, in-context answer: > > Let's discuss the "SMP" thing, first. And the "-686" thing. > > The Debian package mirrors provide quite a diverse set of precompiled > kernels, suitable for various types of hardware. Some PCs have multiple > CPUs -- usually two, but (on i386-class) sometimes as many as eight, in > some rackmount servers. The old Dell laptop in front of me ("guido") is a > uniprocessor (one CPU) machine. You can find out about this (in Linux) > by doing this: > > guido:~# cat /proc/cpuinfo > processor : 0 > vendor_id : GenuineIntel > cpu family : 6 > model : 6 > model name : Mobile Pentium II > stepping : 10 > cpu MHz : 366.679 > cache size : 256 KB > fdiv_bug : no > hlt_bug : no > f00f_bug : no > coma_bug : no > fpu : yes > fpu_exception : yes > cpuid level : 2 > wp : yes > flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 sep mtrr pge mca > cmov pat p > se36 mmx fxsr > bogomips : 732.36 > > guido:~# > > In other words, it's a 366 MHz PII uniprocessor box. So, I would _not_ > want to install a -smp kernel variant, and I'd want to make sure I > installed one compiled with compiler optimisations for something > approaching a PII. > > Now, you have synaptic handy to browse available-package listings. > Please do so, to follow along. I personally prefer to page through the > available-package listings directly, in either > /var/lib/apt/lists/*Packages or /var/lib/dpkg/available . These are > pure text files, as is your installed-packages database, > /var/lib/dpkg/status. (Sometimes, it makes sense to fix glitches in > Debian package handling by snipping something out of > /var/lib/dpkg/status using a text editor!) > > I'm going to do: > > guido:~# less /var/lib/apt/lists/http.us.debian.org_debian_dists_testing_main_binary-i386_Packages > > (I know you don't have the "less" utility installed. I'll be getting to > that in a minute.) > > I'm skipping forward (searching) to the first line that starts with > "Package: kernel-image-2.4...." You can do the analogous lookup in > synaptic, if you like. > > Ah! Here we have a bunch of them. (I'm on the Debian-testing branch. > You didn't specify, but I'd guess you're on Debian-stable = 3.0 = woody, > so you might not see some of these.) > > kernel-image-2.4-386 > kernel-image-2.4-586tsc > kernel-image-2.4-686 > kernel-image-2.4-686-smp > kernel-image-2.4-k6 > kernel-image-2.4-k7 > kernel-image-2.4-k7-smp > kernel-image-2.4.18-386 > kernel-image-2.4.18-586tsc > kernel-image-2.4.18-686 > kernel-image-2.4.18-686-smp > kernel-image-2.4.18-bf2.4 > kernel-image-2.4.18-k6 > kernel-image-2.4.18-k7 > kernel-image-2.4.19-386 > kernel-image-2.4.19-586tsc > kernel-image-2.4.19-686 > kernel-image-2.4.19-686-smp > kernel-image-2.4.19-k6 > kernel-image-2.4.19-k7 > kernel-image-2.4.19-k7-smp > > What are all of these? You have to read the descriptions. Notice that > the first seven don't seem to have complete kernel version numbers: > They just say "2.4". Let's look at the description for > "kernel-image-2.4-686" (because it turns out to be a pretty good choice > for PII uniprocessor boxes): > > Description: Linux kernel image 2.4 on PPro/Celeron/PII/PIII/PIV. > This package will always depend on the latest 2.4 kernel image available > for PPro/Celeron/PII/PIII/PIV machines. > > Above the description, one of the lines is: > > Depends: kernel-image-2.4.19-686 > > I just wanted to call your attention to that, to point out one of the > simultaneously gratifying and infuriating things about Debian: One fine > morning, you wake up and suddenly notice an utterly cool aspect of how > Debian is working on your machine. You're pretty sure it didn't use to > work that way, and nobody told you about it, but suddenly it's there. > If you were to hassle the Debian developers about this lack of > information, they'd probably say "Hey man, leave us alone. We're busy > coding, and don't have time to spoon-feed you information." Whatever. > > Anyhow, if you install package "kernel-image-2.4-686", you'll get > kernel-image-2.4.19-686 _today_, and will automatically progress up to > kernel-image-2.4.nn-686, as nn goes to 20, 21, and on up -- whenever > prepackaged kernels for those versions appear on the Debian package > mirrors and you do an "apt-get update" and "apt-get dist-upgrade" > session (or the synaptic equivalent). > > Now: You said you instructed synaptic to get you > "kernel-image-2.4-686". You quite sensibly balked when you were advised > to perform some surgery on /etc/lilo.conf that you didn't understand, > and presumably you interrupted installation of that package. You also > said: > > > Did: > > skiffworks:/lib/modules# ls > > 2.2.20-idepci 2.4.16-686-smp > > > > Synaptic shows 2.4.16-686-smp not installed, so the process, I believe > > is negated when when a error comes up during the installation. > > So, I'm guessing that package "kernel-image-2.4-686" is a virtual > package that (on the Debian-stable branch, right?) is set to retrieve > physical package "kernel-image-2.4.18" or "kernel-image-2.4.19". You > can/should check this for yourself, by reading the full package > description for "kernel-image-2.4-686" in synaptic. > > I suspect that /lib/modules/2.4.16-686-smp is a leftover from some > completely unrelated prior misadventure with kernel installations. > At least, I can't otherwise imagine where that "-smp" came from, or > why you'd have module pieces for a 2.4.16 kernel. > > Now, you should ask yourself: (1) Should I be using uniprocessor > kernels or SMP? (2) Which compiler optimisation is appropriate for > my machine: plain old 386, Pentium, PPro and above, K6, or Athlon? > You presumably know what's inside your box; I don't. The safest but > lower-performance choice is 386 optimisation. Every 386-or-later CPU > will do that. It's what was used to compile your "2.2.20-idepci" > kernel. > > Let's say that you have a uniprocessor PII-class machine (like my > laptop). Then, you might tell synaptic to install > "kernel-image-2.4-686" (which, in fact, you did -- but interrupted it). > That will fetch the latest uniprocessor 2.4.x kernel image compiled for > PPro (686) or higher. It's also going to install a file with a name > like "initrd.img-2.4.18-686" in /boot. This is the matching initrd > image, containing the most-crucial drivers for that kernel. > > > Another topic: > > I'm able to use 'zless' but when I try to use less I get no such > > command. > > > > skiffworks:~# man less > > No manual entry for less > > Hmm, let's see what "zless" really is: > > guido:~# which zless > /bin/zless > > OK, that's where it is. Now, let's see what type of file it is: > > guido:~# file $(which zless) > /bin/zless: Bourne shell script text executable > > OK, it's a shell script (like a DOS batch file). Let's see its > contents: > > guido:~# cat $(which zless) > #!/bin/sh > PATH="/usr/bin:$PATH"; export PATH > LESSOPEN="|gzip -cdfq %s"; export LESSOPEN > exec less "$@" > > Well, it appears that, quite understandably, "zless" just gunzips a file > and pipes the output to "less". That's what I thought it was. Let's > have a look at "less". First, where is it? > > guido:~# which less > /usr/bin/less > > Now, what type of file is it? > > guido:~# file $(which less) > /usr/bin/less: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (SYSV), > for GNU/Linux 2.2.0, dynamically linked (uses shared libs), stripped > > That's also pretty predictable: It's a regular dynamic binary > executable. > > But you say "less" isn't found on your system? How odd. Well, you can > and should use synaptic to install it. (Me, I just type "apt-get > install less" at the command line. One thing about Debian systems that > tends to make them confusing to newcomers: Everything's at least > potentially a la carte: If the person who constructed the system didn't > want to install "less", then it probably isn't there. But it's dead > easy to add anything initially omitted, that you later decide you want. > The tough part is often realising that you're missing something in the > first place. > > > I thought less was more! Does xterm not have that command? > > In the first place, you probably mean "bash", not xterm. xterm isn't a > shell; it's just a mechanism to display shells under X11. The shell > you're seeing/using in xterm is almost certainly bash, because that > tends to be users' default shell, on Linux. > > So, to answer that question, no, less is not a shell builtin function. > Neither is the "more" command. Only a few commands you commonly use > are builtins, such as cd, alias, echo, exec, exit, export, fg, jobs, > kill, pwd, and set. > > If "less" really isn't installed on your system, you should install it. > (It's a little mysterious how zless could work without it, though. > If you're curious about that, you could repeat the steps I listed above > on your system, to investigate.) > > Anyhow, returning to your main problem: The thing to do is to make sure > there's a paragraph in /etc/lilo.conf for your new 2.4 kernel, and that > it includes an "initrd=" line pointing to the matching initrd* line in > /boot. Ideally, the paragraph for your 2.4 kernel should be in > _addition_ to the one for your 2.2 kernel, so that, if anything goes > wildly wrong at reboot time with your 2.4 kernel, you can fall back to > the 2.2 one instead of having to repair a suddenly non-bootable system. > Once again, here's my laptop's lilo.conf file: > > lba32 > boot=/dev/hda > root=/dev/hda3 > install=menu > map=/boot/map > delay=20 > vga=normal > default=linux > > image=/boot/vmlinuz > label=linux > initrd=/boot/initrd.img-2.4.18-686 > read-only > > image=/boot/vmlinuz.old > label=linuxold > read-only > > Notice the two stanzas (paragraphs)? The second one, label=linuxold, > is my fallback, safety stanza. When I first installed a 2.4 kernel, you > bet your booty that it pointed to a known-good 2.2 kernel! > > /boot/vmlinuz.old is a symbolic link on my system, which I re-point > from time to time, to a known-good kernel. Similarly, /boot/vmlinuz > is also a symlink, which I point to the kernel I've most recently > installed and _hope_ will be usable and not break anything. > > Another level of caution: Before you start editing lilo.conf, do this: > > $ su - > # cd /etc > # cp lilo.conf lilo-conf-KNOWN-GOOD > > Now, you can fool around with lilo.conf to your heart's content, knowing > that you can always restore the original contents, if need be. > > The iron rule of lilo is: _Always_ verify that /sbin/lilo runs without > error, before rebooting or shutting down. Here's my laptop's > "/sbin/lilo" output without the "-v" (verbose) flag: > > guido:~# lilo > Added linux * > Added linuxold > guido:~/# > > Here it is with "-v": > > guido:~# lilo -v > LILO version 22.3.3, Copyright (C) 1992-1998 Werner Almesberger > Development beyond version 21 Copyright (C) 1999-2002 John Coffman > Released 30-Aug-2002 and compiled at 15:38:21 on Sep 1 2002. > > Reading boot sector from /dev/hda > Using MENU secondary loader > Calling map_insert_data > > Boot image: /boot/vmlinuz -> vmlinuz-2.4.18-bf2.4 > Mapping RAM disk /boot/initrd.img-2.4.18-686 > Added linux * > > Boot image: /boot/vmlinuz.old -> vmlinuz-2.4.18-bf2.4 > Added linuxold > > /boot/boot.0300 exists - no backup copy made. > Writing boot sector. > guido:~# > > (The "no backup made" sounds alarming, but is a harmless advisory.) > > Notice that it babbles about all the pieces that it locates, based on > their declared locations in /etc/lilo.conf. If it had been unable to > find any of those components, it would have complained. (Actually, > /sbin/lilo attempts to failsafe in such cases, by stopping immediately > if it can't find something mentioned in lilo.conf . But you might still > have a problem if this leaves you without a valid boot configuration.) > > Now, if you examine the above output closely, you'll notice something > odd: At the moment, my "label=linux" and "label=linuxold" stanzas > actually point to the same 2.4.18-bf2.4 kernel image. This is because > I recently came to have enough faith in this kernel that I threw away my > old 2.2 kernel and related modules, just to save space. But I wanted > the fallback mechanism to be still there for the _next_ time I play with > new kernels, so I repointed the /boot/vmlinuz.old symlink to the 2.4 > kernel image file. Next time I install a new kernel, I'll point the > /boot/vmlinuz symlink to it, but not /boot/vmlinuz.old. > > I hope that makes sense. You'll probably find that your existing > /etc/lilo.conf refers to stuff in the system root directory, e.g., > symlinks /vmlinuz and /vmlinuz.old . I object to such clutter in my > root directory, and so moved those to /boot and edited /etc/lilo.conf > accordingly. > > > Thank you for the background/lead in to making the changes to lilo.conf, > > it helps me get a grasp on what is going on, rather than just mimicking > > a input where I would learn to mimic, not understand. > > Statements like the above are why I take the trouble. It's always a > pleasure to see people "getting it". > > If you ever need to consult my little "Zen of lilo" piece (the three > brief rules that keep you out of trouble, and help you understand the > little thing), it's at: > http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/zen-of-lilo > > It's something I wrote to answer a question sent to the Linux Gazette > Answer Gang, and is also included in the latest (Dec. 2002) LG issue: > http://www.linuxgazette.com/ > > -- > Cheers, There are only 10 types of people in this world -- > Rick Moen those who understand binary arithmetic and those who don't. > rick@linuxmafia.com > > _______________________________________________ > conspire mailing list > conspire@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire From skiffworks@earthlink.net Wed Dec 11 07:19:40 2002 Received: from falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.74]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18M8eC-0003cL-00 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 07:19:40 -0800 Received: from cpe-24-221-189-101.ca.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.189.101] helo=localhost.localdomain) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18M8WR-0003XJ-00 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 07:11:39 -0800 From: Bill Stoye To: Conspire Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.5 Date: 11 Dec 2002 07:12:16 -0800 Message-Id: <1039619537.472.142.camel@skiffworks> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: [conspire] A Beginner's Guide to Linux Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 269 Lines: 11 In NYT Circuits: A Beginner's Guide to Linux By DAVID POGUE December 5, 2002: My feedback if interested: Bill From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Dec 11 19:59:49 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18MKVo-0002qe-00 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 19:59:48 -0800 Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 19:59:48 -0800 To: Conspire Subject: Re: [conspire] A Beginner's Guide to Linux Message-ID: <20021212035948.GW29177@linuxmafia.com> References: <1039619537.472.142.camel@skiffworks> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1039619537.472.142.camel@skiffworks> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1292 Lines: 34 Quoting Bill Stoye (skiffworks@earthlink.net): > In NYT Circuits: > A Beginner's Guide to Linux > By DAVID POGUE > December 5, 2002: > > My feedback if interested: > A well-written letter -- and you're right that it was one of the better tire-kicking Linux articles we've seen, lately. Usually, when I see a mainstream reporter's "Let's look in on Linux" article, I brace myself for babbling idiocy, but David Pogue seems pretty fair-minded and articulate. Good for him. Oh, by the way -- not really relevant to the above, but you reminded me of it, since you mention in your feedback that you run Debian: I have a long lumberyard of Debian tips at http://linuxmafia.com/debian/tips . You might find it useful. Two things, though: 1. I have to apologise for its extreme lack of organisation. Will rewrite it completely, but not today. 2. Because it grew in chronological order, newer and probably more-useful stuff is nearer to the bottom. -- Cheers, "Azathoth need not be present to win." Rick Moen -- Charles O. Baucum, Jr. rick@linuxmafia.com From maffulli@fsfeurope.org Mon Dec 23 19:22:03 2002 Received: from [149.137.240.123] (helo=plusultraII.stef.intranet) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18Qfdq-0007Xk-00 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 19:22:03 -0800 Received: by plusultraII.stef.intranet (Postfix, from userid 501) id D91B514443; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 21:19:30 -0500 (EST) From: Stefano Maffulli To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: Message-Id: <1040696370.2036.11.camel@plusultraII> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.0-3mdk Date: 24 Dec 2002 03:19:30 +0100 Subject: [conspire] information about the meetings Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 672 Lines: 17 Hi guys I'm on a holyday trip in the bay area and was thinking of coming to visit you at your next meeting the 28th of december. I read on the bale site that it will not be held. Could you confirm me that sad news please? Werner "gnupg" Koch asked me to sign as many gpg keys as possible to strengthen the web of trust and I don't want to disappoint him :) I am the Italian coordinator of the Free Software Foundation Europe. I am staying in Alamo, close to Walnut Creek until the 30th. If any of you wants to spend some time taking a cup of coffee and exchange opinion on GNU or anything else write me a note please. Regards, and have a nice christmas stefano From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Dec 24 00:56:19 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18QkrF-0007Ww-00; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 00:56:13 -0800 Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 00:56:08 -0800 To: Stefano Maffulli Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] information about the meetings Message-ID: <20021224085608.GA21323@linuxmafia.com> References: <1040696370.2036.11.camel@plusultraII> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1040696370.2036.11.camel@plusultraII> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1425 Lines: 35 Quoting Stefano Maffulli (maffulli@fsfeurope.org): > Hi guys Hi, Stefano! I've set the mailing list to allow all future posts from your address to go through automatically. You might want to subscribe to the list, if you want to receive copies of list traffic (http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire). > I'm on a holyday trip in the bay area and was thinking of coming to > visit you at your next meeting the 28th of december. I read on the > bale site that it will not be held. Could you confirm me that sad > news please? Officially, there's no meeting because of it being in the middle of the holiday period. (Few people attend meetings that are scheduled between Christmas and New Year's Day.) However, anyone who comes anyway will be very welcome. And I'd be very glad to sign your gnupg key! By the way, you might know my friend David Welton, who's a free software programmer and lives most of the time in Padua. We have good coffee. Please feel welcome to drop by. If you come to Menlo Park by train, please telephone us at 650-561-9820, and we'll pick you up at the railroad station. (Otherwise, you'll have a 3 km walk -- which is a considerable distance, even though it's a pleasant walk.) -- Cheers, There are only 10 types of people in this world -- Rick Moen those who understand binary arithmetic and those who don't. rick@linuxmafia.com From robxbob@LinuxWillBe.com Tue Dec 24 14:39:54 2002 Received: from hotdog.xxxstorage.com ([65.89.41.128]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18QxiM-0005MH-00 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 14:39:54 -0800 Received: from localhost (robxbob@localhost) by hotdog.xxxstorage.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id gBP0bUX29871 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 16:37:30 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 16:37:30 -0800 (PST) From: Dan X-Sender: robxbob@hotdog.xxxstorage.com Reply-To: Dan@LinuxWillBe.com To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] information about the meetings In-Reply-To: <20021224085608.GA21323@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 2266 Lines: 65 Hi conspirators, Since Rick has been kind enough to extend an invitation, I will drop by. Due to the holidays giving me more than my usual freetime, the meeting of the 28th will be the easiest for me to attend. It looks like it would be a good opportunity for me to learn about gnupg keys and maybe some Italian words. -Dan Dan@LinuxWillBe.com On Tue, 24 Dec 2002, Rick Moen wrote: > Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 00:56:08 -0800 > From: Rick Moen > To: Stefano Maffulli > Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com > Subject: Re: [conspire] information about the meetings > > Quoting Stefano Maffulli (maffulli@fsfeurope.org): > > > Hi guys > > Hi, Stefano! I've set the mailing list to allow all future posts from > your address to go through automatically. You might want to subscribe > to the list, if you want to receive copies of list traffic > (http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire). > > > I'm on a holyday trip in the bay area and was thinking of coming to > > visit you at your next meeting the 28th of december. I read on the > > bale site that it will not be held. Could you confirm me that sad > > news please? > > Officially, there's no meeting because of it being in the middle of the > holiday period. (Few people attend meetings that are scheduled between > Christmas and New Year's Day.) However, anyone who comes anyway will be > very welcome. > > And I'd be very glad to sign your gnupg key! > > By the way, you might know my friend David Welton, who's a free software > programmer and lives most of the time in Padua. > > We have good coffee. Please feel welcome to drop by. If you > come to Menlo Park by train, please telephone us at 650-561-9820, and > we'll pick you up at the railroad station. (Otherwise, you'll have a 3 > km walk -- which is a considerable distance, even though it's a pleasant > walk.) > > -- > Cheers, There are only 10 types of people in this world -- > Rick Moen those who understand binary arithmetic and those who don't. > rick@linuxmafia.com > > _______________________________________________ > conspire mailing list > conspire@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire > From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Dec 25 04:58:20 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18RB76-0003g8-00 for ; Wed, 25 Dec 2002 04:58:20 -0800 Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 04:58:20 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20021225125819.GA18794@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] ISOs of Red Hat "phoebe" beta Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 2592 Lines: 73 This past Monday, Red Hat Software released its first post-8.0 beta. Quoting from the announcment: "You know, Chandler, you being here is the best gift I could ask for Christmas." "Aww. Thanks Pheebs." "Ok, now where's my real present?" Red Hat, Inc. has a holiday gift for you - PHOEBE, a new beta release of Red Hat Linux. PHOEBE is 6 CDs of software (3 binary, 3 source), including, among other things: - the latest in bleeding-edge desktop and XFree86 technology - Mozilla 1.2.1, with Xft antialiased fonts - glibc-2.3.1, with the new Native POSIX Thread Library (NPTL), for performant and scalable threading PHOEBE is, of course, not intended for use on mission critical or other production systems. As always, we do not recommend the use of beta software on mission critical or production systems. In fact, we may laugh at those who try. Most packages are said to have been rebuilt between 8.0 and this beta; differences are said to be "large". No beta-level docs, this time. Further notes: o Window Maker has been removed completely from the distribution. Presumably, one can/should add it back using apt-rpm / Synaptic. Also, Matthew Miller says he's making an RPM specifically for the phoebe beta, and will post a notice to the phoebe-list mailing list. Or, you can just do "rpmbuild --rebuild WindowMaker-0.80.1-1.src.rpm" using the RH 8.0 version. But that version is very outdated and strange, and has an exploitable buffer overflow. Apparently, all you get is GNOME/metacity and KDE, in any event. o Sometimes, under some (so far unidentified) circumstances, starting Apache w/SSL enabled tends to induce a kernel panic. o On at least some laptops, _reporting_ for ACPI (battstat GNOME applet) doesn't work. o ext3 formatting is not offered as an option. (Trivial workaround exists.) o Wireless ethernet is said to be broken. o "init 0" no longer works to do a shutdown. (I'm sure they'll fix this.) o If you do an installation from loopback-mounted ISOs on the hard disk, X11 installation isn't available. In such cases, network device autodetection probably won't work, either. In any event, I have all three of the binary ISOs, and people are welcome to make copies on Saturday. Bring blank CDRs, or pay me $1 each to use mine. We can also test-install the thing, if people wish. -- Cheers, There are only 10 types of people in this world -- Rick Moen those who understand binary arithmetic and those who don't. rick@linuxmafia.com From maffulli@fsfeurope.org Thu Dec 26 10:50:30 2002 Received: from dialin5-57.stmarys-ca.edu ([149.137.240.57] helo=plusultraII.stef.intranet) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18Rd5R-0000SU-00; Thu, 26 Dec 2002 10:50:29 -0800 Received: by plusultraII.stef.intranet (Postfix, from userid 501) id 863BA12E62; Thu, 26 Dec 2002 12:41:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [conspire] information about the meetings From: Stefano Maffulli To: Rick Moen Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com In-Reply-To: <20021224085608.GA21323@linuxmafia.com> References: <1040696370.2036.11.camel@plusultraII> <20021224085608.GA21323@linuxmafia.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: Message-Id: <1040924479.2012.3.camel@plusultraII> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.0-3mdk Date: 26 Dec 2002 18:41:20 +0100 Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 672 Lines: 19 Il mar, 2002-12-24 alle 09:56, Rick Moen ha scritto: > Officially, there's no meeting because of it being in the middle of the > holiday period. (Few people attend meetings that are scheduled between > Christmas and New Year's Day.) However, anyone who comes anyway will be > very welcome. That's fantastic, I'll definetely drop by on saturday. I will come by car, with my fiance. I will be there around 4.30/5pm hoping not to get lost. > By the way, you might know my friend David Welton, who's a free software > programmer and lives most of the time in Padua. not personally, I will ask my friens at Prosa if they know him :) See you on saturday, regards stef From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Dec 26 17:54:04 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18RjhL-0004Um-00 for ; Thu, 26 Dec 2002 17:54:03 -0800 Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 17:54:03 -0800 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20021227015403.GK18794@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. Subject: [conspire] (forw) SCSI drives Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1297 Lines: 36 Aaron is a friend of mine and long-time Linux user, who lives in Palo Alto. If anyone needs an excellent deal on inexpensive 18 GB SCSI hard drives, contact him. ----- Forwarded message from Aaron Lehmann ----- Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 12:50:30 -0800 From: Aaron Lehmann To: rick@linuxmafia.com Subject: SCSI drives Rick, I've recently come into possession of more hard drives than I know what to do with. I have many extra Fujitsu MAA3182SC drives (18GB, 7200rpm). They're all guarenteed to work. The manufacturer claims a MTBF of 1 million hours (what the fuck?). See the specs at http://hdd.fujitsu.com/global/drive/maa3182/catalog.html. I'm asking around to see if any friends, especially SCSI bigots, are interested in taking a few of these off my hands and giving them good homes. I am selling them for $35 apiece, which seems to me to be a very good deal, at least compared to http://www.codemicro.com/store/prod_results.cfm?mode=5&srchparm=CAO1606-B962. These drives would be perfect for a workstation or small server, or they would make great RAID drives (I can throw in a PCI DAC960PL2 with 4MB of cache for $40). Please let me know if you or anyone you know might be interested. Thanks, Aaron Lehmann ----- End forwarded message ----- From jose_sanchez79@yahoo.com Fri Dec 27 11:12:47 2002 Received: from web20108.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.226.45]) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18RzuW-0005ok-00 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 2002 11:12:45 -0800 Message-ID: <20021227191148.34145.qmail@web20108.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [12.7.80.110] by web20108.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 27 Dec 2002 11:11:48 PST Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 11:11:48 -0800 (PST) From: Jose Sanchez To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [conspire] Slashdotted... Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 336 Lines: 13 I have to say it was a good lunch time read: http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/12/26/1040511127721.html Also, your cat uses vi too :0) I hope I can make it to Cabal tomorrow. -Jose __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From nkj@namodn.com Fri Dec 27 11:44:42 2002 Received: from namodn.com ([209.0.100.49] helo=claire.namodn.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18S0PR-0004DL-00 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 2002 11:44:41 -0800 Received: from nkj by claire.namodn.com with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 18S0OW-0005Jr-00; Fri, 27 Dec 2002 11:43:44 -0800 Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 11:43:44 -0800 From: Nick Jennings To: Jose Sanchez Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Slashdotted... Message-ID: <20021227114344.B23554@namodn.com> References: <20021227191148.34145.qmail@web20108.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20021227191148.34145.qmail@web20108.mail.yahoo.com>; from jose_sanchez79@yahoo.com on Fri, Dec 27, 2002 at 11:11:48AM -0800 Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 250 Lines: 10 On Fri, Dec 27, 2002 at 11:11:48AM -0800, Jose Sanchez wrote: > > Also, your cat uses vi too :0) He also mentioned he was (Just Kidding), which is only self-evident, since I'm more than sure emacs is kitties editor of choice. - Nick Jennings From deirdre@deirdre.net Fri Dec 27 16:22:03 2002 Received: from emperor ([198.144.195.190] helo=emperor.deirdre.org ident=root) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18S4jq-0006Yt-00 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 2002 16:22:02 -0800 Received: from deirdre.net (airport.deirdre.org [198.144.195.188]) by emperor.deirdre.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Debian-6) with ESMTP id gBS0LtWT010987; Fri, 27 Dec 2002 16:21:55 -0800 Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 16:21:09 -0800 Subject: Re: [conspire] Slashdotted... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com To: Nick Jennings From: Deirdre Saoirse Moen In-Reply-To: <20021227114344.B23554@namodn.com> Message-Id: <436B1818-19FA-11D7-B612-000393B986EE@deirdre.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 338 Lines: 12 On Friday, December 27, 2002, at 11:43 AM, Nick Jennings wrote: > On Fri, Dec 27, 2002 at 11:11:48AM -0800, Jose Sanchez wrote: >> >> Also, your cat uses vi too :0) > > He also mentioned he was (Just Kidding), which is only self-evident, > since I'm more than sure emacs is kitties editor of choice. Nah, he's more a sed kinda guy. From robxbob@LinuxWillBe.com Sun Dec 29 13:22:59 2002 Received: from hotdog.xxxstorage.com ([65.89.41.128]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18Skte-0005Zq-00 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 13:22:59 -0800 Received: from localhost (robxbob@localhost) by hotdog.xxxstorage.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id gBTNJ0828438 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 15:19:00 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 15:19:00 -0800 (PST) From: Dan X-Sender: robxbob@hotdog.xxxstorage.com Reply-To: Dan@LinuxWillBe.com To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [conspire] (forw) Thanks for the help with my laptops (fwd) Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1386 Lines: 60 Conspirators, I'm looking for a store which would be a good source of pcmcia devices (modems, networkcards, etc) for some older linux laptops I have: ibm thinkpad 600e acer 501dx Rick mentioned a place on Lawrence I believe but I forgot to write down the name. Something like... accent computers? action computers? -Dan ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 12:58:41 -0800 From: Rick Moen To: Dan@linuxwillbe.com Subject: (forw) Thanks for the help with my laptops Dan, I'll be glad to answer all of that, but would you mind asking the questions on conspire@linuxmafia.com? That way, other people can benefit. Thanks! Your post is included below, for your convenience in reposting. ----- Forwarded message from Dan ----- Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 14:50:36 -0800 (PST) From: Dan Reply-To: Dan@LinuxWillBe.com To: Rick Moen Subject: Thanks for the help with my laptops Rick, thanks for taking the time to help me with my 2 linux laptops last night. It was an excellent learning experience. What was the name of the store you mentioned (on Lawrence I believe?) which may be a good source for pcmcia cards? Was it action compters? accent computers? active computers? aspect computers? ?? -Dan Dan@LinuxWillBe.com ----- End forwarded message ----- From star@starshine.org Sun Dec 29 13:47:17 2002 Received: from antares.starshine.org ([216.240.40.177] helo=antares.in.starshine.org ident=postfix) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18SlHB-0003yM-00 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 13:47:17 -0800 Received: from gemini.starshine.org (gemini.starshine.org [216.240.40.169]) by antares.in.starshine.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D4753977; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 09:56:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by gemini.starshine.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 8B3141413D; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 13:38:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 13:38:13 -0800 To: Dan@LinuxWillBe.com Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] (forw) Thanks for the help with my laptops (fwd) Message-ID: <20021229213813.GA14910@starshine.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: star@starshine.org (Heather Stern) Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1993 Lines: 53 On Sun, Dec 29, 2002 at 03:19:00PM -0800, Dan wrote: > Conspirators, > > I'm looking for a store which would be a good source of pcmcia > devices (modems, networkcards, etc) for some older linux laptops > I have: > > ibm thinkpad 600e > acer 501dx The goodies are not so much about whether the laptops are "older" as whether they are so old that you need a 16 bit card (pcmcia, pc card) as opposed to a 32 bit card (pcmcia, cardbus). > Rick mentioned a place on Lawrence I believe but I forgot to write down > the name. > > Something like... > accent computers? > action computers? > > -Dan "Accent Technologies" is where SVLUG holds installfests. No relation. Action Computers. Driving on Lawrence Spwy, North from Arques (the street that Sunnyvale Fry's is currently on) or North from Central Xpwy (just in case Sunnyvale isn't your normal haunts and you had no idea where its Fry's was for some strange reason)... pay attention to the right hand side of the street, in fact, be in the right lane. You should see Action, Subway, and Dot Com Depot (Disk Drive Depot, Corporate Systems Corp, whatever the sign says these days) in the same sector, and turn right into the "little side street" which is really a meta-driveway. If you miss that one you can turn in past the Compuware and drive along the back side of the parking lots for the next sector. Yeah, the McDonald's is connected to that same lot too, in yet another section. If you're coming from the 101, then you'll head south, and you'll have to either left turn at Oakmead and enter the lot near Coco's and McDonalds, or go all the way to Arques and make a U-turn. Even if it wasn't a divided highway and/or you owned an SUV to have fun with, there's too much traffic to make it across, on the average. . | . Heather Stern | star@starshine.org --->*<--- Starshine Technical Services - * - consulting@starshine.org ' | ` Sysadmin Support and Training | (800) 938-4078 From howard@scsurplus.com Sun Dec 29 14:02:21 2002 Received: from scsurplus.com ([130.94.191.13]) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18SlVj-0006K6-00 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 14:02:20 -0800 Received: (qmail 15543 invoked by uid 16141); 29 Dec 2002 22:01:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scsurplus.com) ([63.207.22.50]) (envelope-sender ) by 130.94.191.13 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 29 Dec 2002 22:01:23 -0000 Message-ID: <3E0F7529.CAEF425@scsurplus.com> Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 14:20:25 -0800 From: Howard Susman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [conspire] Redhat Stuff Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 908 Lines: 22 I found the replacement for Xconfigurator on Redhat. It is called: redhat-config-xfree86. I checked /usr/bin/ for redhat-config programs and found: redhat-config-bind redhat-config-printer redhat-config-date redhat-config-printer-gui redhat-config-httpd redhat-config-printer-tui redhat-config-keyboard redhat-config-proc redhat-config-language redhat-config-rootpassword redhat-config-mouse redhat-config-securitylevel redhat-config-network redhat-config-services redhat-config-network-cmd redhat-config-soundcard redhat-config-network-druid redhat-config-time redhat-config-nfs redhat-config-users redhat-config-packages redhat-config-xfree86 I hope this information is of some use to people doing Redhat 8.0 or later installs. Howard From robxbob@LinuxWillBe.com Sun Dec 29 14:29:32 2002 Received: from hotdog.xxxstorage.com ([65.89.41.128]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18Slw3-0004jP-00 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 14:29:31 -0800 Received: from localhost (robxbob@localhost) by hotdog.xxxstorage.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id gBU0PZX05915 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 16:25:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 16:25:35 -0800 (PST) From: Dan X-Sender: robxbob@hotdog.xxxstorage.com Reply-To: Dan@LinuxWillBe.com To: conspire@linuxmafia.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [conspire] pcmcia 16 bit modems Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 657 Lines: 21 Conspirators, Now that I have the name/location of Action Computers nailed down... I'm looking for suggestions on a good pcmcia modem to buy for my linux laptops. I'm convinced I need a pcmcia 16 bit pc-card modem as opposed to a 32 bit pcmcia device since my current (working) network cards have "pc-card 16" written on them. Is a pcmcia 16 bit pc-card modem enough of a generic device that I may be free to pick one from a wide variey of choices? If it turns out that I need to try out 10 different pcmcia modems before I find one which works, I'd prefer to just buy a tiny external hayes compatible modem and connect it to my serial port. -Dan From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Dec 29 14:31:42 2002 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18SlyA-0004k6-00 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 14:31:42 -0800 Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 14:31:42 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Redhat Stuff Message-ID: <20021229223141.GJ30129@linuxmafia.com> References: <3E0F7529.CAEF425@scsurplus.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3E0F7529.CAEF425@scsurplus.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1424 Lines: 31 Quoting Howard Susman (howard@scsurplus.com): > I found the replacement for Xconfigurator on Redhat. It is called: > redhat-config-xfree86. > > I checked /usr/bin/ for redhat-config programs and found: > redhat-config-bind redhat-config-printer > redhat-config-date redhat-config-printer-gui > redhat-config-httpd redhat-config-printer-tui > redhat-config-keyboard redhat-config-proc > redhat-config-language redhat-config-rootpassword > redhat-config-mouse redhat-config-securitylevel > redhat-config-network redhat-config-services > redhat-config-network-cmd redhat-config-soundcard > redhat-config-network-druid redhat-config-time > redhat-config-nfs redhat-config-users > redhat-config-packages redhat-config-xfree86 Howard, this is really cool stuff. They've been busy. I'm going to have to install the phoebe beta on a spare box, to play with it. It's probably all Python code. They've been cranking out lots of neat little Python-based utilities: 8.0, for example, has a console version of their printconf utility, absence of which used to drive me crazy on RH servers. (Setting up print support on them without X11 was messy.) -- Cheers, The shortest distance between two puns is a straightline. Rick Moen rick@linuxmafia.com From star@starshine.org Sun Dec 29 23:49:37 2002 Received: from antares.starshine.org ([216.240.40.177] helo=antares.in.starshine.org ident=postfix) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18Sug4-0006E8-00 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 23:49:37 -0800 Received: from gemini.starshine.org (gemini.starshine.org [216.240.40.169]) by antares.in.starshine.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A9FF3977; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 19:58:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by gemini.starshine.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 30AA41413D; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 23:40:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 23:40:27 -0800 To: Dan@LinuxWillBe.com Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] pcmcia 16 bit modems Message-ID: <20021230074027.GA15305@starshine.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: star@starshine.org (Heather Stern) Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 2415 Lines: 58 On Sun, Dec 29, 2002 at 04:25:35PM -0800, Dan wrote: > Conspirators, > > Now that I have the name/location of Action Computers nailed down... > > I'm looking for suggestions on a good pcmcia modem to buy for my > linux laptops. As a generic point, look for boxes that mention linux on them, they're starting to do that :) As a more specific point go look at linmodems.org and make sure you get one that isn't a winmodem under the hood. Once upon an age ago you could laugh at the idea that an external modem or a pcmcia modem would require software help. It just ain't so anymore. There's even USB softmodems. bleeeech! > I'm convinced I need a pcmcia 16 bit pc-card modem as opposed to > a 32 bit pcmcia device since my current (working) network cards have > "pc-card 16" written on them. It can't really hurt that much; your modem traffic will be limited to serial speeds anyway, no matter which size bus you have, and a 16 bit card would work in anything. They didn't make pcmcia in an 8 bit edition. At least not as far as I ever encountered. > Is a pcmcia 16 bit pc-card modem enough of a generic device that > I may be free to pick one from a wide variey of choices? As above, don't get a softmodem. You should be able to see the package readme for supported cards in your card services. Under debian, this would be in /usr/share/doc/pcmcia-cs/ ... every distro keeps these in a slightly dif't place ... if you're going to build your own card services anyway then the supported list at pcmcia-cs.sourceforge.net would be sufficient. Sadly, these entries aren't marked with when they were added. > If it turns out that I need to try out 10 different pcmcia modems > before I find one which works, I'd prefer to just buy a tiny external > hayes compatible modem and connect it to my serial port. I repeat the watning against finding yourself stuck with a softmodem. If the box says "HCF" or "HSP" on it it probably is one; I forget what the F is, but that's Host Controlled ___ and Host Signal Processing respectively. > -Dan I had an old Megahertz I liked, but it's too slow for the modern era. If you really get stuck and find that even a 14.4 would do, lemme know. . | . Heather Stern | star@starshine.org --->*<--- Starshine Technical Services - * - consulting@starshine.org ' | ` Sysadmin Support and Training | (800) 938-4078 From mhigashi@myrddin.imat.com Mon Dec 30 20:07:30 2002 Received: from adsl-207-214-84-142.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net ([207.214.84.142] helo=myrddin.imat.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18TDgg-0005Ob-00 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 20:07:30 -0800 Received: (from mhigashi@localhost) by myrddin.imat.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gBV45AG07536 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 20:05:10 -0800 Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 20:05:10 -0800 From: Mike Higashi To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Slashdotted... Message-ID: <20021231040510.GA7493@myrddin.imat.com> References: <20021227191148.34145.qmail@web20108.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021227191148.34145.qmail@web20108.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 604 Lines: 14 On Fri, Dec 27, 2002 at 11:11:48AM -0800, Jose Sanchez wrote: > I have to say it was a good lunch time read: > http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/12/26/1040511127721.html Great article. One teensy-weeny nit to pick: the Refund Day after-party was really paid partly by Jim Dennis and mostly by me. This is because Jim never gave me a receipt to turn in to the official sponsor -- he wanted to take a good chunk of the excess beer he bought to one of the Savitsky's parties -- and I never got around to gathering my own to turn in for myself. I wish I had that money now. Oh, well. Mike Higashi From amcgee@sdf.lonestar.org Thu Jan 02 11:29:12 2003 Received: from iceland.freeshell.org ([207.202.214.138] helo=sdf.lonestar.org ident=root) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18UB1k-0001Zb-00 for ; Thu, 02 Jan 2003 11:29:12 -0800 Received: (from amcgee@localhost) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.11.6+3.4W/8.11.6) id h02JRuu04884; Thu, 2 Jan 2003 19:27:56 GMT Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 19:27:56 +0000 (UTC) From: Art McGee To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [conspire] Help Fix Computers for Indymedia Argentina in Berkeley Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 3784 Lines: 105 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 10:06:59 -0800 (PST) From: Evan Henshaw-Plath Subject: Help Fix Computers for Indymedia Argentina in Berkeley Help build computers for Indymedia Argentina. We are working on putting together a shipment of a couple hundred computers to support their work. This is a follow-up to a shipment of 235 computers which we sent to the Ecuador Indymedia Center in November. The Argentina indymedia center is the nexus of communication for the popular movement against neo-liberalism and the IMF. Their website gets over 25,000 page views a day. Yet they only have two computers. This shipment will help indymedia centers in Buenos Aires and Rosario, Argentina as well as other near by IMC's in Chile, Southern Brazil, Bolivia, and Uruguay. They will also be used to support other social movement groups who are on the forefront of the struggle for a better world. We hope to change the situation. We'll be refurbishing donated used computers for the next two weeks. We need your help. No technical knowledge necessary. We an teach you everything you need to know. But if you happen to be a Linux geek we definitely have things to do for you too. We are installing Spanish language Debian GNU/Linux on the boxes. We will be working ACCRC's NEW warehouse in Berkeley. We will be here 24 hours a day from now through the 12th of January. The weekends of the 4th & 5th, and 11th & 12th we will be doing big install fests. Please stop by for an hour or an evening to help out. This is a huge job and we need more volunteers. Want to know more? Read the Salon article which was written about our first shipment to indymedia Ecuador: http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2002/09/23/antiglobal_geeks/ Project website: http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Global/SendingComputers If you have any questions or planning on coming to help out, please either email imc-tech-solidarity@indymedia.org, come on to irc.indymedia.org in the #boxes channel, or give us a call. (Our phone number through the 5th is 541-941-8903, after the 5th we'll have another number.) We are working out of the new ACCRC warehouse in Berkeley. NOTE: THIS IS NOT WHERE WE WORKED ON THE ECUADOR SHIPMENT. 1501 Eastshore Hwy Berkeley, CA 94710-1702 Map: http://tinyurl.com/3zvy DIRECTIONS: To get to the warehouse via public transportation you can either walk from North Berkeley bart or take the bus and walk. If you need it, you can call us from bart and we'll and drive over to pick you up. It's on the corner of Eastshore Hwy and Jones St. Jones half way between Gilman & University. To drive just get off at either of those two exits and take Eastshore to Jones St. BART: Walk from the North Berkeley BART station which is 1.6 miles to the warehouse: Directions from North Berkeley Bart: tinyurl.com/3zww BUS: Another option is to take BART to El Cerrito Plaza where you can get on AC Transit Bus 72 to San Pablo & Gilman. From there it is a short walk to the warehouse. Directions for Bus: tinyurl.com/3zx1 More Information: ACCRC is Alameda County Computer Resource Center, http://www.accrc.org, who are providing a lot of support for this project in terms of the computers and warehouse space. FreeGeek, http://www.freeegeek.org, is a similar group to ACCRC where indymedia Portland people are preparing 80 computers for the shipment to Argentina. They are also looking for help on this project. -end- Art McGee Communications & Technology Consultant amcgee@freeshell.org (510) 967-9381 Circuit Riders International NPO/NGO Media & Technology Calendar APC ActionApps Content Management System From robxbob@LinuxWillBe.com Sun Jan 05 11:56:39 2003 Received: from nat273.national-net.com ([66.115.160.30]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18VGsu-0003SG-00 for ; Sun, 05 Jan 2003 11:56:37 -0800 Received: from nat270.national-net.com (nat270.national-net.com [66.115.160.27]) by nat273.national-net.com (8.10.1/8.10.0) with ESMTP id h05KM7k01734 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 12:22:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (robxbob@localhost) by nat270.national-net.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id h05LrK316358 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 13:53:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 13:53:20 -0800 (PST) From: Dan X-Sender: robxbob@nat270.national-net.com Reply-To: Dan@LinuxWillBe.com To: conspire@linuxmafia.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [conspire] my old acer laptop Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 328 Lines: 18 Conspirators, while cleaning out my closet, I found an old acer laptop running windows 95. It only has a floppy drive. Where might I find a "tiny" linux distribution which would fit on 1,2,3 or 4 floppies? My plan is to make this my "meeting laptop" which I'd use to take notes. It does not need to run X, just vi. -Dan From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Jan 05 12:30:53 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18VHQ5-00028p-00 for ; Sun, 05 Jan 2003 12:30:53 -0800 Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 12:30:53 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] my old acer laptop Message-ID: <20030105203053.GJ30129@linuxmafia.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 2659 Lines: 66 Quoting Dan (robxbob@LinuxWillBe.com): > Conspirators, > > while cleaning out my closet, > I found an old acer laptop running windows 95. > > It only has a floppy drive. > > Where might I find a "tiny" linux distribution > which would fit on 1,2,3 or 4 floppies? Well, you could start here: http://dilbert.physast.uga.edu/~andy/minilinux.html http://dmoz.org/Computers/Software/Operating_Systems/Linux/Distributions/Tiny/ http://home.hccnet.nl/s.a.v.dijk/mini.html http://www.linuxlinks.com/Distributions/Mini_Distributions/ http://links.hellug.gr/linuxl27.html http://www.eng.cse.dmu.ac.uk/~hgs/small_systems/ http://www.geekhavoc.com/floppy.html http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Laptop-HOWTO-18.html http://www.northernjourney.com/opensource/linside/li008.html You didn't mention how much disk space it has, or how much RAM. Probably, it has at least 8 MB, and I would hope at least 16 MB. (Less than that is pretty painful with Win9x.) If you're _determined_ to get Linux going on a machine as small as 2 MB of RAM and a 40 MB hard drive, see this page: http://www.superant.com/smalllinux/ Given enough hard disk space (e.g., 300 MB or so), you can put a fairly liveable Slackware installation on such a laptop, working solely from floppy disks. Unless they've... um..., slacked off, they still make the whole thing available on floppy images. For that matter, you can get the Debian Base System via something like 13 floppies. And there are some possibilities you might not have thought of, yet: PLIP is a method of getting IP (and thus, NFS, http, ftp, etc.) running over parallel-port "laplink" cables. http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/mini/PLIP.html With the aid of some other existing Linux machine, you can boot a Linux installation floppy, get PLIP going, and then install just about any Linux distribution from the other machine (over the PLIP channel). And then, things are even easier if the Acer just happens to also have a PCMCIA slot, even if you don't (yet) have an ethernet card for it, because you can certainly borrow one for the duration of the installation effort. > It does not need to run X, just vi. If the laptop has at least _32 MB_, then I'd say getting X11 going is very worthwhile. Less than that, maybe, but you won't get tremendous mileage out of it. Less than 16 MB, don't bother. By the way, you might be able to justify adding RAM to such a machine, even at this late date. Call up SA Technology, http://satech.com/ , and ask them how much. -- Cheers, "My file system's got no nodes!" Rick Moen "How does it shell?" rick@linuxmafia.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Jan 05 13:39:24 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18VIUN-0001oG-00 for ; Sun, 05 Jan 2003 13:39:23 -0800 Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 13:39:23 -0800 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20030105213923.GK30129@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: [conspire] Re: pcmcia 16 bit modems Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 7443 Lines: 176 Just catching up on old list-mail. Apologies for breaking threading, but I no longer have Dan's original in my mailbox, and so have to quote from the Web archive. Quoting Dan (robxbob@LinuxWillBe.com): > I'm looking for suggestions on a good pcmcia modem to buy for my > linux laptops. > > I'm convinced I need a pcmcia 16 bit pc-card modem as opposed to > a 32 bit pcmcia device since my current (working) network cards have > "pc-card 16" written on them. You know, I didn't address the question when you first posted it, because I wasn't sure about this, but: My recollection is that the 32-bit PCMCIA "CardBus" stuff is pretty much fully backwards compatible. That is, I'll bet that a card described as 32-bit/CardBus will work OK in any PCMCIA socket -- and all you have to do is use drivers whose names end in "cs" for Card Services, instead of "cb" for CardBus. But I don't know this for certain. > Is a pcmcia 16 bit pc-card modem enough of a generic device that > I may be free to pick one from a wide variey of choices? The 3Com / US Robotics / Megahertz cards _tend_ to be safe choices, though I know those mainly from combo (ethernet/modem) cards. But there's the winmodem plague in their product line, as in many others. (The cheaper the card, the more likely it is to be a winmodem, because winmodems are all about cutting costs by omitting circuitry.) You could do a lot worse than to just print out the PCMCIA section of Rob Clark's "winmodem" database, and take it with you to stores: http://www.idir.net/~gromitkc/pcmcia_list.html In Linux, cards get detected by the /sbin/cardmgr daemon (part of David Hinds's PCMCIA Card Services aka PCMCIA-CS package). cardmgr queries the card for its identity string or manufacturer ID ("manfid"), and then compares that string or manfid against known entries in the SUPPORTED.CARDS database, here: /etc/pcmcia/config (Don't be scared by the word "database": It's a plain old flat text file.) I believe you can actually update your /etc/pcmcia/config from updates David posts here: http://pcmcia-cs.sourceforge.net/ftp/SUPPORTED.CARDS When you insert a card and cardmgr detects the insertion event, you'll (always) hear a beep, to acknowledge that. A second or two later, depending on whether cardmgr finds a match for the card's ID string or manfid in /etc/pcmcia/config, you'll either hear another of the same beep (match found), or a lower-pitched beep (no match). If a match has been found, then cardmgr will initiate an "insmod" (insertion of a driver module into the running kernel) of the PCMCIA driver indicated as appropriate for that card. Here's an example /etc/pcmcia/config entry that looks for ID strings: card "Megahertz XJ2288 V.34 Fax Modem" version "MEGAHERTZ", "XJ2288", "V.34 PCMCIA MODEM" bind "serial_cs" ...and an equivalent one that looks for manfids: card "Megahertz XJ2288 V.34 Fax Modem" manfid 0x0101, 0x1234 bind "serial_cs" If a match is _not_ found, then cardmgr won't attempt anything further until you give it more to go on. Such as one of the two entries above, which say "Look out for these strings (or these manfids). If you see them, then insmod the serial_cs driver. No special options." Essentially, somebody owned an early sample of one of those cards, did "cardmgr ident" at the Linux command prompt to query it manually for its ID strings and manfids, and then sent David e-mail saying "Hey, I have this new Megahertz XJ2288 PCMCIA modem that your Card Services package doesn't support yet. Here are its 'cardmgr ident' return values." Next release, David would include a new entry for that card in /etc/pcmcia/config . Meanwhile, the card's owner probably hand-edited the local-additions file, /etc/pcmcia/config.opts , to contain an entry like one of the above. I had to do exactly that, for a couple of my old cards. Here's stuff I added to my /etc/pcmcia/config.opts: card "Cisco 350" manfid 0x015f, 0x000a bind "airo_cs" card "Intel EtherExpress PRO/100 LAN/Modem PC Card Adapter" version "Intel", "EtherExpress(TM) PRO/100 LAN/Modem PC Card Adapter", "PRO/10 0 M16B", "1.00" bind "xirc2ps_cs" to 0 In the case of the Intel card, I didn't care at that time whether Linux could use the modem half of that card, just the ethernet half, so I didn't bother to tell it to bind serial_cs to card function #1, just the xirc2ps_cs driver to function #0. (I guessed how that worked by looking at other entries for Intel cards, and experimenting.) However, with reasonable luck, you won't have to do any of that. Hmm, David's SUPPORTED.CARDS file has words of wisdom on the modem-selection question: ------ Modem and serial cards: [ Virtually all modem cards, simple serial port cards, and digital cellular modems should work. The only exceptions are so-called "WinModems" that require special drivers. ISDN modems that emulate a standard UART are also supported. Some Winmodem drivers do exist (i.e., the ltmodem driver for Lucent chipsets). For more information about WinModems, drivers, etc, see either http://www.o2.net/~gromitkc/winmodem.html, http://www.linmodems.org, or http://linmodems.technion.ac.il ] [serial_cs driver] [x86,axp,ppc,smp] Advantech COMpad-32/85 dual port, COMpad-32/85B-4 quad port Anycom ECO II dual serial Argosy dual serial Black Box I114A RS-422/485 Brain Boxes 2-Port RS-232 Brain Boxes BL-500 Bluetooth Adapter National Instruments PCMCIA-232, PCMCIA-232/2, PCMCIA-232/4 National Instruments PCMCIA-485, PCMCIA-485/2 Omega Engineering QSP-100 Quatech, IOTech dual RS-232 cards Quatech quad RS-232 card, dual and quad RS-422 cards Socket Communications dual RS-232 card Trimble Mobile GPS [pcmcia-cs driver: serial_cb] [x86] [2.4+ kernel driver: serial] Xircom RBM56G, CBM56G [ The following cards are WinModems and are NOT supported by the serial drivers included in the PCMCIA package ] 3Com/Megahertz 3CXM356/3CCM356, 3CXM656/3CCM656 3Com/Megahertz XJ/CC2560, 3013, 3014 3Com/USRobotics 3014A, 3056, 3057 Abocom FM560CB ActionTec CM560LH Billionton 56K HSP Com1 Platinum MC221 Discovery 56K Compaq 192 IBM 10L7393, 10L7394 Lucent LT Winmodem Motorola Montana New Media WinSurfer Paradise CW56K HSP Xircom R2BM56W, R2BM56WB ------ > If it turns out that I need to try out 10 different pcmcia modems > before I find one which works, I'd prefer to just buy a tiny external > hayes compatible modem and connect it to my serial port. Suggestion: Bring your (Linux-installed) laptop with you to the store. If it's Action Computer, they'll be willing to let you plug cards into your laptop's PCMCIA socket, to see if you can hear that cheery double beep that means you've won without hassle. Just for completeness's sake, I should mention that, just because cardmgr finds a match for the card's ID strings or manfids, and just because it's insmod'ed a driver that you or David Hinds considers appropriate, doesn't absolutely guarantee that it'll actually work. The manufacturer could have done something really perverse like change to a completely different -- or subtlely different -- chipset without changing the ID string / manfids. Or the card could ID properly but be defective. But that's very unlikely to happen with something as basic as a modem card. -- Cheers, Rick Moen This space for rant. rick@linuxmafia.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Jan 05 13:43:59 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18VIYp-0004AZ-00 for ; Sun, 05 Jan 2003 13:43:59 -0800 Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 13:43:58 -0800 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: pcmcia 16 bit modems Message-ID: <20030105214358.GL30129@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030105213923.GK30129@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030105213923.GK30129@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 519 Lines: 14 Quoting myself: > I believe you can actually update your /etc/pcmcia/config from updates > David posts here: http://pcmcia-cs.sourceforge.net/ftp/SUPPORTED.CARDS I meant to delete that before posting. The SUPPORTED.CARDS file is just an informational file, and doesn't have the ID string / manfids / insmod information in it. Useful, though. -- Cheers, "My file system's got no nodes!" Rick Moen "How does it shell?" rick@linuxmafia.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Jan 05 15:12:05 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18VJw4-0006Hj-00 for ; Sun, 05 Jan 2003 15:12:04 -0800 Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 15:12:04 -0800 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20030105231204.GM30129@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030105203053.GJ30129@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030105213923.GK30129@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. Subject: [conspire] Re: pcmcia 16 bit modems Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 2305 Lines: 43 Quoting myself again, to post another afterthought: > Just for completeness's sake, I should mention that, just because > cardmgr finds a match for the card's ID strings or manfids, and just > because it's insmod'ed a driver that you or David Hinds considers > appropriate, doesn't absolutely guarantee that it'll actually work. > The manufacturer could have done something really perverse like change > to a completely different -- or subtlely different -- chipset without > changing the ID string / manfids. Or the card could ID properly but be > defective. Or you could have the wrong dongle (external piece of flexible plastic that serves as an intermediary between the card and connecting cables to elsewhere). Once, the ethernet dongle for my aforementioned Intel EtherExpress/PRO combo card broke. Since I was due to attend a Robert Austin Computer Show thereafter, I brought it along and inquired at one of the vendor tables. The guy said he had what I needed, handed me a 3Com dongle, and charged me some tiny pittance for it. It seemed to fit the card. I didn't have a laptop with me to test it on, though. I took it home. Kept trying known-good network configurations -- no go. No link-status LED turning green, nada. Cross-checked the OS and socket using a different card: Those proved OK. Tried the 3Com dongle with a 3Com card: It worked there. So, finally I concluded that the confident-sounding vendor didn't know fsck-all about the hardware he was selling. My $3 (or whatever) wasn't entirely wasted, though, because I later bought a 3Com 3C575 PCMCIA ethernet card at Action Computer (something like $12?), and now I have a spare dongle for it. The other lesson I learned is that spare dongles are cheap and ubiquitous for some cards but not others. Ask politely about this at the Action Computer front desk, and you'll see. And that's why I bought the 3Com card. (It's not a question of _if_ you'll break or lose a dongle, it's when. And the manufacturers tend to really gouge you on replacements. Because they can.) -- Cheers, I once successfully declined a departmental retreat, Rick Moen saying that on that day I planned instead to advance. rick@linuxmafia.com -- Alan J. Rosenthal, in the Monastery From star@starshine.org Sun Jan 05 16:55:22 2003 Received: from antares.starshine.org ([216.240.40.177] helo=antares.in.starshine.org ident=postfix) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18VLY2-00071E-00 for ; Sun, 05 Jan 2003 16:55:22 -0800 Received: from gemini.starshine.org (gemini.starshine.org [216.240.40.169]) by antares.in.starshine.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66BC7397D; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 13:03:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by gemini.starshine.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 177C21413D; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 16:44:34 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 16:44:34 -0800 To: Dan@LinuxWillBe.com Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] my old acer laptop Message-ID: <20030106004434.GB32466@starshine.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: star@starshine.org (Heather Stern) Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1288 Lines: 42 On Sun, Jan 05, 2003 at 01:53:20PM -0800, Dan wrote: > Conspirators, > > while cleaning out my closet, > I found an old acer laptop running windows 95. > > It only has a floppy drive. > > Where might I find a "tiny" linux distribution > which would fit on 1,2,3 or 4 floppies? Well, at only 2 or 3 a debian setup can get onto the net (e.g. via pcmcia network) - if you don't mind a slightly large stack it can install Base completely from floppy. 'Course I usually brazenly take the drive out, mount it elsewhere, fill 'er up. DOesn't mean you might not still be looking for a tight fit - 328 MB, 512 MB anyone ? :) But a decent little debian will fit in around 150, GUI not that much more if you avoid the "desktop environment" lure. > My plan is to make this my "meeting laptop" which > I'd use to take notes. > > It does not need to run X, just vi. > > -Dan Heh, no problem! p.s. Debian base comes with this abomination called ae. Run away at full speed. Install midnight commander and use mcedit, plus get a nice ftp client and tarball viewer all in one... . | . Heather Stern | star@starshine.org --->*<--- Starshine Technical Services - * - consulting@starshine.org ' | ` Sysadmin Support and Training | (800) 938-4078 From star@starshine.org Sun Jan 05 16:57:24 2003 Received: from antares.starshine.org ([216.240.40.177] helo=antares.in.starshine.org ident=postfix) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18VLZz-00071q-00; Sun, 05 Jan 2003 16:57:23 -0800 Received: from gemini.starshine.org (gemini.starshine.org [216.240.40.169]) by antares.in.starshine.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 727AE3A53; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 13:06:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by gemini.starshine.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9C28C1413D; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 16:46:37 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 16:46:37 -0800 To: Rick Moen Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] my old acer laptop Message-ID: <20030106004637.GC32466@starshine.org> References: <20030105203053.GJ30129@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030105203053.GJ30129@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: star@starshine.org (Heather Stern) Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 3403 Lines: 82 Oh yeah and I forgot to mention that Tom's Rtbt has editors in it. 1 floppy, no need to install anything. Wow, that's a nice list of tidbits. Maybe Dan will review which ones he tries? . | . Heather Stern | star@starshine.org --->*<--- Starshine Technical Services - * - consulting@starshine.org ' | ` Sysadmin Support and Training | (800) 938-4078 On Sun, Jan 05, 2003 at 12:30:53PM -0800, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Dan (robxbob@LinuxWillBe.com): > > > Conspirators, > > > > while cleaning out my closet, > > I found an old acer laptop running windows 95. > > > > It only has a floppy drive. > > > > Where might I find a "tiny" linux distribution > > which would fit on 1,2,3 or 4 floppies? > > Well, you could start here: > http://dilbert.physast.uga.edu/~andy/minilinux.html > http://dmoz.org/Computers/Software/Operating_Systems/Linux/Distributions/Tiny/ > http://home.hccnet.nl/s.a.v.dijk/mini.html > http://www.linuxlinks.com/Distributions/Mini_Distributions/ > http://links.hellug.gr/linuxl27.html > http://www.eng.cse.dmu.ac.uk/~hgs/small_systems/ > http://www.geekhavoc.com/floppy.html > http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Laptop-HOWTO-18.html > http://www.northernjourney.com/opensource/linside/li008.html > > You didn't mention how much disk space it has, or how much RAM. > Probably, it has at least 8 MB, and I would hope at least 16 MB. (Less > than that is pretty painful with Win9x.) > > If you're _determined_ to get Linux going on a machine as small as 2 MB > of RAM and a 40 MB hard drive, see this page: > http://www.superant.com/smalllinux/ > > Given enough hard disk space (e.g., 300 MB or so), you can put a fairly > liveable Slackware installation on such a laptop, working solely from > floppy disks. Unless they've... um..., slacked off, they still make the > whole thing available on floppy images. For that matter, you can get > the Debian Base System via something like 13 floppies. > > And there are some possibilities you might not have thought of, yet: > PLIP is a method of getting IP (and thus, NFS, http, ftp, etc.) running > over parallel-port "laplink" cables. > http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/mini/PLIP.html > > With the aid of some other existing Linux machine, you can boot a Linux > installation floppy, get PLIP going, and then install just about any > Linux distribution from the other machine (over the PLIP channel). > > And then, things are even easier if the Acer just happens to also have a > PCMCIA slot, even if you don't (yet) have an ethernet card for it, > because you can certainly borrow one for the duration of the > installation effort. > > > It does not need to run X, just vi. > > If the laptop has at least _32 MB_, then I'd say getting X11 going is > very worthwhile. Less than that, maybe, but you won't get tremendous > mileage out of it. Less than 16 MB, don't bother. > > By the way, you might be able to justify adding RAM to such a machine, > even at this late date. Call up SA Technology, http://satech.com/ , > and ask them how much. > > -- > Cheers, "My file system's got no nodes!" > Rick Moen "How does it shell?" > rick@linuxmafia.com > > _______________________________________________ > conspire mailing list > conspire@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Jan 05 20:06:14 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18VOWj-0007aJ-00 for ; Sun, 05 Jan 2003 20:06:13 -0800 Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 20:06:13 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] my old acer laptop Message-ID: <20030106040613.GP30129@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030106004434.GB32466@starshine.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030106004434.GB32466@starshine.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 2607 Lines: 58 Quoting Heather Stern (star@starshine.org): > Well, at only 2 or 3 a debian setup can get onto the net > (e.g. via pcmcia network) - if you don't mind a slightly > large stack it can install Base completely from floppy. I thought it was conceivable that his laptop might not have PCMCIA sockets (though I don't remember seeing such a machine since the 486). But, Dan, definitely you want to leverage that PCMCIA capability as much as possible, if the laptop has any. The consistent theme you should be noting here is that there are _plenty_ of ways to install Linux other than directly from a CD-ROM drive. > 'Course I usually brazenly take the drive out, mount it > elsewhere, fill 'er up. DOesn't mean you might not still > be looking for a tight fit - 328 MB, 512 MB anyone ? :) ...And I meant to tell Dan about that option, too. Dan, many (not all) laptops are relatively painless to temporarily extract the hard drive from. They're built that way for ease of service. With the drive out of the case, you can temporarily hang it off a desktop machine's IDE chain, install Linux onto it there, and put it back into the laptop box. My recollection is that the only thing you then have to repair, in the Linux installation, is its LILO or GRUB setup, which you can do using a maintenance floppy. > Heh, no problem! p.s. Debian base comes with this abomination > called ae. Run away at full speed. Install midnight commander > and use mcedit, plus get a nice ftp client and tarball viewer all > in one... Hmm, I've been meaning to make a list of nice little console editors. There are quite a few. But yeah, mcedit does nicely. Reminds me: If you want to see a neat trick, check out the lftp client's support of the FISH protocol (FIles over SHell). The idea of FISH has the client side using a type of glue software called an IOSlave (one for FISH) to remap client requests as shell commands sent over an ssh tunnel, and then map back the return values. Several implementations exist. The one in lftp uses remote shell commands to _completely_ emulate ftp over the SSH session (browsing 'n' all). All it takes on the remote end is generic sshd. No funky sftp stuff required. There's a widget in KDE3 called kio_slave that can be called by any KDE3 software (such as Konqueror) to do any remote commands required. Same idea. Anyhow, if you want the feature set of ftp with the security of SSH, try lftp. -- Cheers, "My file system's got no nodes!" Rick Moen "How does it shell?" rick@linuxmafia.com From dmarti@zgp.org Sun Jan 05 20:34:09 2003 Received: from drunken.raving.linuxfreaks.org ([198.144.202.250] helo=capsicum.zgp.org) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18VOxl-0006Fk-00 for ; Sun, 05 Jan 2003 20:34:09 -0800 Received: by capsicum.zgp.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 027F33FC1B; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 20:32:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 20:32:41 -0800 From: Don Marti To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: pcmcia 16 bit modems Message-ID: <20030106043241.GA29139@zgp.org> References: <20030105203053.GJ30129@linuxmafia.com> <20030105231204.GM30129@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030105231204.GM30129@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 917 Lines: 20 begin Rick Moen quotation of Sun, Jan 05, 2003 at 03:12:04PM -0800: > The other lesson I learned is that spare dongles are cheap and > ubiquitous for some cards but not others. Ask politely about this at > the Action Computer front desk, and you'll see. There are at least two common types of 3Com dongles that are mechanically interchangeable but electrically different -- one works on the *589* 10Mbps-only cards, and the other works on the *575* 10/100 cards. If you have the 10/100 card, you need the 2-LED dongle, and you need the 1-LED dongle for the 10-only card. I have seen used cards for sale at swap meets with the wrong dongles. -- Don Marti Even if we don't get DMCA reform, loudly http://zgp.org/~dmarti demanding DMCA reform is going to get the dmarti@zgp.org injustice of the DMCA in front of the next KG6INA jury. Make noise. It counts. From star@starshine.org Mon Jan 06 13:40:45 2003 Received: from antares.starshine.org ([216.240.40.177] helo=antares.in.starshine.org ident=postfix) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18Vez2-0004EK-00; Mon, 06 Jan 2003 13:40:36 -0800 Received: from gemini.starshine.org (gemini.starshine.org [216.240.40.169]) by antares.in.starshine.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2844A3985; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 09:48:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by gemini.starshine.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9415B1413D; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 13:28:55 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 13:28:55 -0800 To: Rick Moen Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] my old acer laptop Message-ID: <20030106212855.GA2435@starshine.org> References: <20030106004434.GB32466@starshine.org> <20030106040613.GP30129@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030106040613.GP30129@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: star@starshine.org (Heather Stern) Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 3995 Lines: 73 On Sun, Jan 05, 2003 at 08:06:13PM -0800, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Heather Stern (star@starshine.org): > > > Well, at only 2 or 3 a debian setup can get onto the net > > (e.g. via pcmcia network) - if you don't mind a slightly > > large stack it can install Base completely from floppy. > > I thought it was conceivable that his laptop might not have PCMCIA > sockets (though I don't remember seeing such a machine since the 486). > But, Dan, definitely you want to leverage that PCMCIA capability as much > as possible, if the laptop has any. > > The consistent theme you should be noting here is that there are > _plenty_ of ways to install Linux other than directly from a CD-ROM > drive. Yes... and ways to deal with the lack. Taking a page from rick's notepad here's a fairly short enumeration, lengthened by useful comments: No PCMCIA at all (either your system *is* that ancient, the slots are broken / unsupported *cough* omnibook 600 *coffcoff*, or you have one of those handtop that need to boot from floppy and that uses up the slot.) [these are OR choices, pick one asterisk.] * loopback based FS-blob in your windows partition e.g. zipslack, phatlinux, likely others. rick's earlier msg. * use dos/win utils to split the volume boot from toms rtbt (which will let you eject the floppy) prepare the linux filesystems if case 3 applies, you may be able to network down a tarball else: now boot from debian floppies, install Base. * use a distro or instructions for one that allows networking over PLIP - your parallel port. experience shows this is easier for the client end (who has menus helping) than the server end (where you have to have PLIP set up as well as the ftp or whatever that's being served up). Requires a parallel link cable. And much patience. * serial link. same deal, but even slooo o o o oower. * use your pre-existing win thingy to download a tarball from the open net before starting asterisk #2, then go there. * split a tarball onto a HUGE stack of floppies, carefully lace them back together with upholstery thread (use either COPY /B or cat) then goto asterisk #2. And good luck, you brave soul. Don't forget to do an md5sum to check the rebuilt tarball. with at least one PCMCIA slot... and a network card. * same as asterisk number 2 above, take the if- clause. * use nearly any distro's "net install" floppy or floppy-set. * cross connect to a buddy running the server side of net install, then they can have the CDs loaded into place and you can use the net install floppy without needing the internet * (rare) maybe your computer can boot off an atapi/cdrom device plugged in there; if so then treat as normal distro install, you won't need a network card. To invade the other thread a tiny bit, if you're buying an ethernet card for your laptop for this purpose, make sure it's a stodgy old well supported one. Distros are famous for being well behind the curve on current PCMCIA support, and the boot floppies even more so because they hate changing 'em once the darn things work. It doesn't need to be slow, it just needs to have been around a while. And of course, you could just linux off of one of the floppy-set based distros - the local hard disk merely being storage space. If you do I'd suggest keeping the raw images on your hard disk and a copy of the floppy writing app handy - floppies do go bad so terribly often. Anyways some of them do have GUI environments, which wouldn't be impressive until you realize that's only one or two extra floppies to get it going... . | . Heather Stern | star@starshine.org --->*<--- Starshine Technical Services - * - consulting@starshine.org ' | ` Sysadmin Support and Training | (800) 938-4078 From jose_sanchez79@yahoo.com Mon Jan 06 15:05:44 2003 Received: from web20102.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.226.39]) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18VgJU-0000XK-00 for ; Mon, 06 Jan 2003 15:05:44 -0800 Message-ID: <20030106230414.83069.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [12.7.80.110] by web20102.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 06 Jan 2003 15:04:14 PST Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 15:04:14 -0800 (PST) From: Jose Sanchez To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [conspire] Samba Blues... Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 623 Lines: 17 Hello. I am setting up a windows machine so it can browse to my linux file server. I can see my lfs from Windows Network Neighborhood with no problem which by double-clicking on the Windows NN icon prompts me to give a user name and password. I have users setup on the lfs but when I try any of the IDs I get rejected even root. The permissions on the shared folder are set to rwx for all specified logins in the smb.conf file. What am I missing in this setup? T I A -Jose __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Mon Jan 06 15:28:42 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18Vgfh-0007iM-00 for ; Mon, 06 Jan 2003 15:28:41 -0800 Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 15:28:41 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Samba Blues... Message-ID: <20030106232841.GC30129@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030106230414.83069.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030106230414.83069.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Mas: Bah humbug. From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1283 Lines: 33 Quoting Jose Sanchez (jose_sanchez79@yahoo.com): > Hello. I am setting up a windows machine so it can browse to my linux > file server. I can see my lfs from Windows Network Neighborhood with > no problem which by double-clicking on the Windows NN icon prompts me > to give a user name and password. I have users setup on the lfs but > when I try any of the IDs I get rejected even root. Ah, a Samba setup problem. Did you remember to populate the Samba password database for all users? # smbpasswd -a username I'm not really good at Samba troubleshooting, especially at a distance. You might have some luck with: ftp://ftp.stratus.com/pub/vos/customers/samba/SAMBA_Troubleshooting.rtf http://us6.samba.org/samba/ftp/docs/Samba24Hc13.pdf http://hr.uoregon.edu/davidrl/samba.html The permissions on the shared folder are > set to rwx for all specified logins in the smb.conf > file. That would be relevant to browse rights, but according to your account, you're not able to login, so you didn't reach that issue. -- Cheers, "Open your present...." Rick Moen "No, you open your present...." rick@linuxmafia.com Kaczinski Christmas. -- Unabomber Haiku Contest, CyberLaw mailing list From eferrari@attbi.com Mon Jan 06 15:42:11 2003 Received: from sccrmhc01.attbi.com ([204.127.202.61]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18Vgsl-00042d-00 for ; Mon, 06 Jan 2003 15:42:11 -0800 Received: from warmachine (12-235-197-139.client.attbi.com[12.235.197.139]) by sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01) with SMTP id <20030106234009001003plase>; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 23:40:09 +0000 Message-ID: <01bf01c2b5dc$b8348f00$050aa8c0@warmachine> Reply-To: "Eric Ferrari" From: "Eric Ferrari" To: "Jose Sanchez" Cc: References: <20030106230414.83069.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [conspire] Samba Blues... Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 15:38:29 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 3210 Lines: 104 Would need to see a copy of your smb.conf file..... Problem might be this..... In Red Hat Linux 8.0 encrypted passwords are enabled by default because it is more secure. If encrypted passwords are not used, plain text passwords are used, which can be intercepted by someone using a network packet sniffer. It is recommended that encrypted passwords be used. The Microsoft SMB Protocol originally used plaintext passwords. However, Windows 2000 and Windows NT 4.0 with Service Pack 3 or higher require encrypted Samba passwords. To use Samba between a Red Hat Linux system and a system with Windows 2000 or Windows NT 4.0 Service Pack 3 or higher, you can either edit your Windows registry to use plaintext passwords or configure Samba on your Linux system to use encrypted passwords. If you choose to modify your registry, you must do so for all your Windows NT or 2000 machines - this is risky and may cause further conflicts. To configure Samba on your Red Hat Linux system to use encrypted passwords, follow these steps: 1. Create a separate password file for Samba. To create one based on your existing /etc/passwd file, at a shell prompt, type the following command: cat /etc/passwd | mksmbpasswd.sh > /etc/samba/smbpasswd If the system uses NIS, type the following command: ypcat passwd | mksmbpasswd.sh > /etc/samba/smbpasswd The mksmbpasswd.sh script is installed in your /usr/bin directory with the samba package. 2. Change the permissions of the Samba password file so that only root has read and write permissions: chmod 600 /etc/samba/smbpasswd 3. The script does not copy user passwords to the new file. To set each Samba user's password, use the command (replace username with each user's username): smbpasswd username A Samba user account will not be active until a Samba password is set for it. 4. Encrypted passwords must be enabled in the Samba configuration file. In the file smb.conf, verify that the following lines are not commented out: encrypt password = yes smb passwd file = /etc/samba/smbpasswd 5. Make sure the smb service is started by typing the command service smb restart at a shell prompt. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jose Sanchez" To: Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 3:04 PM Subject: [conspire] Samba Blues... > Hello. I am setting up a windows machine so it can > browse to my linux file server. I can see my lfs from > Windows Network Neighborhood with no problem which by > double-clicking on the Windows NN icon prompts me to > give a user name and password. I have users setup on > the lfs but when I try any of the IDs I get rejected > even root. The permissions on the shared folder are > set to rwx for all specified logins in the smb.conf > file. What am I missing in this setup? T I A > > -Jose > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > conspire mailing list > conspire@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire From mhigashi@myrddin.imat.com Mon Jan 06 19:44:25 2003 Received: from adsl-207-214-84-142.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net ([207.214.84.142] helo=myrddin.imat.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18VkfA-0002ba-00 for ; Mon, 06 Jan 2003 19:44:24 -0800 Received: (from mhigashi@localhost) by myrddin.imat.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h073fav19834 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 19:41:36 -0800 Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 19:41:36 -0800 From: Mike Higashi To: Cabalists Message-ID: <20030107034136.GA19782@myrddin.imat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i Subject: [conspire] [CSL Colloq] The Pedal-Powered Internet * 4:15PM, Wed Jan 8, 2003 in Gates B03 Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 3569 Lines: 102 --VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Some of you might be interested the seminar described in the forwarded message below. The bio in the original message doesn't mention it, but the speaker Lee Felsenstein is also known as the moderator for the Home Brew Computing club meetings and the designer of some early home computer hardware, including the Osbourne Portable. Mike Higashi --VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.Stanford.EDU (smtp1.Stanford.EDU [171.64.14.23]) by myrddin.imat.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h064G8G14501 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 20:16:08 -0800 Received: from smtp1.Stanford.EDU (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp1.Stanford.EDU (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h064HMTw028692; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 20:17:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from elaine33.Stanford.EDU (elaine33.Stanford.EDU [171.64.15.108]) by smtp1.Stanford.EDU (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h064HMua028685; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 20:17:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 20:17:22 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200301060417.h064HMua028685@smtp1.Stanford.EDU> To: mhigashi@imat.com From: allison@stanford.edu Reply-To: ee380@shasta.stanford.edu Errors-To: ee380@shasta.stanford.edu Subject: [CSL Colloq] The Pedal-Powered Internet * 4:15PM, Wed Jan 8, 2003 in Gates B03 COMPUTER SYSTEMS LABORATORY COLLOQUIUM 4:15PM, Wednesday, Jan 8, 2003 NEC Auditorium, Gates Computer Science Building B03 http://ee380.stanford.edu[1] Topic: The Pedal-Powered Internet Wireless Village Systems in the Developing World Speaker: Lee Felsenstein Jhai Foundation[2] About the talk: The Jhai Foundation is working with a group of villages in rural Laos and has responded to the request of the villagers for a communication capability. The system under construction is Linux-based, 802.11b-interconnected and intended to be operated by village youth. With one station per village it will provide IP telephony to both the local network and the Internet, and will also run the KDE suite localized for Laos. The story of the development of this system may provide some insights into user-centric design in a completely different culture, and in turn may inform further efforts to bring digital Internet-based communications technology to other developing societies. About the speaker: Lee Felsenstein is the designer of the Jhai system and sits on the Jhai Foundation's Board of Advisors. He is an historical figure in personal computer history and has been the subject of many articles and some books. Lee holds a BSEE from UC Berkeley and 12 patents. He resides in Palo Alto. Contact information: Lee Felsenstein Golemics, Inc. 2460 Park Blvd. #1 Palo Alto, CA 94306 vox: (650) 814-0427 fax: (650) 322-2881 lee@nerditude.com[3] Embedded Links: [ 1 ] http://ee380.stanford.edu [ 2 ] http://www.jhai.org [ 3 ] mailto:lee@nerditude.com Mailing List Information: You are receiving this because you are one the the Stanford general mailing lists or because you are on the private CSL Colloquium list. A careful inspection of the headers should tell you which mailing list responsible. If you wish to unubscribe from the private CSL Colloquium list, visit http://ee380.stanford.edu and follow the links. --VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J-- From jose_sanchez79@yahoo.com Tue Jan 07 15:27:03 2003 Received: from web20109.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.226.46]) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18W37f-0005sQ-00 for ; Tue, 07 Jan 2003 15:27:03 -0800 Message-ID: <20030107232522.74868.qmail@web20109.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.117.135.130] by web20109.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 07 Jan 2003 15:25:22 PST Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 15:25:22 -0800 (PST) From: Jose Sanchez Subject: Re: [conspire] Samba Blues... To: conspire@linuxmafia.com In-Reply-To: <01bf01c2b5dc$b8348f00$050aa8c0@warmachine> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 497 Lines: 17 > The Microsoft SMB Protocol originally used plaintext > passwords. However, Windows 2000 and Windows NT 4.0 > with Service Pack 3 or higher require encrypted > Samba > passwords. After looking at /etc/samba/smb.conf, I noticed that encryption was commented out. After making encryption active and restarting smb it worked properly. Thanks. -Jose __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From jose_sanchez79@yahoo.com Tue Jan 07 17:00:37 2003 Received: from web20103.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.226.40]) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18W4a4-0004e6-00 for ; Tue, 07 Jan 2003 17:00:30 -0800 Message-ID: <20030108005840.28222.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.117.135.130] by web20103.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 07 Jan 2003 16:58:40 PST Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 16:58:40 -0800 (PST) From: Jose Sanchez To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [conspire] Burn DVDs... Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 445 Lines: 14 Hello. I am purchasing a DVD recorder (Sony DRU-500a) this week. I wanted to know if there is any software for linux regarding DVD burning. I will be adding this device on a pc running Red Hat 8.0 Linux. I want to backup some files on DVDs because of the capacity it holds (4.7 Gigs). TIA. -Jose __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Jan 07 17:22:48 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18W4va-00014u-00 for ; Tue, 07 Jan 2003 17:22:42 -0800 Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 17:22:37 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Burn DVDs... Message-ID: <20030108012237.GP8302@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030108005840.28222.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030108005840.28222.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 673 Lines: 17 Quoting Jose Sanchez (jose_sanchez79@yahoo.com): > Hello. I am purchasing a DVD recorder (Sony DRU-500a) > this week. I wanted to know if there is any software > for linux regarding DVD burning. I will be adding this > device on a pc running Red Hat 8.0 Linux. I want to > backup some files on DVDs because of the capacity it > holds (4.7 Gigs). TIA. Info I have handy is here: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/cdrecord-dvd -- Cheers, I once successfully declined a departmental retreat, Rick Moen saying that on that day I planned instead to advance. rick@linuxmafia.com -- Alan J. Rosenthal, in the Monastery From star@starshine.org Wed Jan 08 13:22:37 2003 Received: from antares.starshine.org ([216.240.40.177] helo=antares.in.starshine.org ident=postfix) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18WNem-0004Xh-00 for ; Wed, 08 Jan 2003 13:22:37 -0800 Received: from gemini.starshine.org (gemini.starshine.org [216.240.40.169]) by antares.in.starshine.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D27CC3985; Wed, 8 Jan 2003 09:31:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by gemini.starshine.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 685B414513; Wed, 8 Jan 2003 13:11:06 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 13:11:06 -0800 To: Jose Sanchez Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Burn DVDs... Message-ID: <20030108211106.GH14009@starshine.org> References: <20030108005840.28222.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030108005840.28222.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: star@starshine.org (Heather Stern) Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1387 Lines: 33 On Tue, Jan 07, 2003 at 04:58:40PM -0800, Jose Sanchez wrote: > Hello. I am purchasing a DVD recorder (Sony DRU-500a) > this week. I wanted to know if there is any software > for linux regarding DVD burning. I will be adding this > device on a pc running Red Hat 8.0 Linux. I want to > backup some files on DVDs because of the capacity it > holds (4.7 Gigs). TIA. > > -Jose There is some, but how reliable it is, is a very good question. General commentary on the web seems to be equally divided between "oh sure, it's easy! just use a tweaked version of mkisofs to make HUGE iso9660 filesystems, then the program (either Joerg Shily's prodvd, the gnu project fork dvdrecord) and it works great" such people do not generally state if they were using DVD-R or DVD+R. They weren't using DVD-RAM - that does "just work" since it looks like a hard disk. ...and "arrrrgh! I can't get this thing to work at all!" No experiment yet with the commercial ProGear package, but that's terribly expensive, since it's basically a movie-making kit. I recommend getting model numbers and typing them into search engines with the keyword linux before plunking cash down on anything. . | . Heather Stern | star@starshine.org --->*<--- Starshine Technical Services - * - consulting@starshine.org ' | ` Sysadmin Support and Training | (800) 938-4078 From jose_sanchez79@yahoo.com Wed Jan 08 14:07:52 2003 Received: from web20110.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.226.47]) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18WOMa-0005sn-00 for ; Wed, 08 Jan 2003 14:07:52 -0800 Message-ID: <20030108220608.45574.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [12.7.80.110] by web20110.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 08 Jan 2003 14:06:08 PST Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 14:06:08 -0800 (PST) From: Jose Sanchez Subject: Re: [conspire] Burn DVDs... To: star@starshine.org Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com In-Reply-To: <20030108211106.GH14009@starshine.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 2261 Lines: 80 --- Heather Stern wrote: > On Tue, Jan 07, 2003 at 04:58:40PM -0800, Jose > Sanchez wrote: > > Hello. I am purchasing a DVD recorder (Sony > DRU-500a) > > this week. I wanted to know if there is any > software > > for linux regarding DVD burning. I will be adding > this > > device on a pc running Red Hat 8.0 Linux. I want > to > > backup some files on DVDs because of the capacity > it > > holds (4.7 Gigs). TIA. > > > > -Jose > > There is some, but how reliable it is, is a very > good question. > General commentary on the web seems to be equally > divided between > > "oh sure, it's easy! just use a tweaked version of > mkisofs to make HUGE > iso9660 filesystems, then the program (either Joerg > Shily's prodvd, > the gnu project fork dvdrecord) and it works great" > > such people do not generally state if they were > using DVD-R > or DVD+R. They weren't using DVD-RAM - that does > "just work" > since it looks like a hard disk. > > ...and "arrrrgh! I can't get this thing to work at > all!" > > No experiment yet with the commercial ProGear > package, but that's > terribly expensive, since it's basically a > movie-making kit. > > I recommend getting model numbers and typing them > into search engines > with the keyword linux before plunking cash down on > anything. > > . | . Heather Stern | > star@starshine.org > --->*<--- Starshine Technical Services - * - > consulting@starshine.org > ' | ` Sysadmin Support and Training | > (800) 938-4078 It is very true what you have posted. I get "maybe it will work" from almost everyone I talked too. I need this solution to backup important data not movies and stability is what I am after. I might just have to put a tape drive instead :) > I recommend getting model numbers and typing them > into search engines > with the keyword linux before plunking cash down on > anything. Thanks for the advice but I usually do research before posting or buying. I found: http://www.xcdroast.org/#overview which has a cool look. I might just give this a try on a test system. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Jan 08 16:00:48 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18WQ7s-0001B8-00 for ; Wed, 08 Jan 2003 16:00:48 -0800 Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 16:00:48 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Burn DVDs... Message-ID: <20030109000047.GK8302@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030108211106.GH14009@starshine.org> <20030108220608.45574.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030108220608.45574.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 3056 Lines: 64 Quoting Jose Sanchez (jose_sanchez79@yahoo.com): > It is very true what you have posted. I get "maybe it will work" from > almost everyone I talked too. I need this solution to backup important > data not movies and stability is what I am after. I might just have to > put a tape drive instead :) Yeah. Doing backup to DVD _sounds_ attractive and nicely high-tech, but I'm not sure you'd like the results: 1. Capacity is OK (4.7 GB). About right for home machines, I guess. 2. Cost-effective media? I haven't priced the blanks, but suspect they're pretty damned expensive per MB, compared to, say, DDS3 tape. 3. Backup speed? Is each backup going to take a dog's age? I'm not sure. 4. Verification. A backup is worse than useless if you can't trust its integrity. (If you make unreliable backups, you're suffering a false sense of security. If you know that you have no backup, you're at least scared and cautious.) Standard backup mechanisms have verify cycles and/or extra tape heads that do hardware-level read-and-compare, to ensure that you actually have useful data. 5. Cataloguing and media rotation/reuse. Regular backup mechanisms keep records of what data are on which backup sets, so you can determine which set has the last version of your master's thesis before you accidentally deleted it. And they also tell you how much wear each backup set has gone through, and therefore which ones to recycle next and when to retire sets from service. (Of course, if you're using write-once media, this isn't an issue.) 6. Software support for incremental and differential backups, not just "grab everything" backup jobs. Easy to do with tape; can you do it with DVD? All of the above issues come up all the time on Linux mailing lists, whenever someone proposes goofy ideas like "Hey, lets do backup onto CDRWs!" just on account of being gadget freaks and not thinking through the details. And you'll hear a lot of _really_ bad advice in most such discussions. There's also a difference between backup and archival storage. Are you sure you're trying to do the former and not the latter? I'll not get into the difference right at the moment, but it has to do with what you're trying to protect against. Maybe you'll feel like expanding a bit on what you're trying to accomplish, if you'd like to get better-aimed advice. I have a partial summary of common tape-backup types, here (omitting some crucial details such as pricing): http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/tape-backup-types Some rather acidly worded mail from me to Karsten Self regarding the gadget-freak problem in backup discussions is preserved here: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/tape-backup (Also includes explanations of differential vs. incremental and backup vs. archival storage.) 'Hope that helps! -- Cheers, "My file system's got no nodes!" Rick Moen "How does it shell?" rick@linuxmafia.com From Sean.Wolfe@ticketmaster.com Mon Jan 13 13:11:46 2003 Received: from wc202.ticketmaster.com ([205.132.175.202] helo=mail.ticketmaster.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18YBs2-0008Mn-00 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2003 13:11:46 -0800 Received: by mail.ticketmaster.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) id ; Mon, 13 Jan 2003 13:09:28 -0800 Message-ID: From: Sean Wolfe To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 13:08:28 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Subject: [conspire] coax crimping tools, anyone? Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 485 Lines: 16 Hey folks, long time lurker, first time poster. New to the area, and I need to get a crimp re-done on a coax connector. These days all I have is cat 5 stuff. Does anybody know of a decent networking shop? Or, does anybody have the tools? I can return the favor with, uh, Sharks or Warriors tickets? TIA, -Sean. ---------------------------------------------------------- Sean Wolfe, CCNA IT Manager, Ticketmaster Northern California 415.951.7900 x2250 sean.wolfe@ticketmaster.com From star@starshine.org Mon Jan 13 15:03:33 2003 Received: from antares.starshine.org ([216.240.40.177] helo=antares.in.starshine.org ident=postfix) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18YDcA-0000Nf-00 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2003 15:03:31 -0800 Received: from gemini.starshine.org (gemini.starshine.org [216.240.40.169]) by antares.in.starshine.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BACA23987; Mon, 13 Jan 2003 11:11:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by gemini.starshine.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1DF7114513; Mon, 13 Jan 2003 14:54:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 14:54:53 -0800 To: Sean Wolfe Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] coax crimping tools, anyone? Message-ID: <20030113225453.GA5718@starshine.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: star@starshine.org (Heather Stern) Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1132 Lines: 24 On Mon, Jan 13, 2003 at 01:08:28PM -0800, Sean Wolfe wrote: > Hey folks, long time lurker, first time poster. > > New to the area, and I need to get a crimp re-done on a coax connector. > These days all I have is cat 5 stuff. Does anybody know of a decent > networking shop? Or, does anybody have the tools? I can return the favor > with, uh, Sharks or Warriors tickets? You can probably get crimp tools at Action Computer (lawrence expwy near arques, dot com depot, subway)? People still use that stuff for sound systems, so probably a good sound-geek shop would have the stuff. There is a ham-radio fans shop in the same complex, so if Action hasn't got it you have another place to try without even hitting the road. But I don't follow sports games, so if this helps you'll have to think of something else. And something less impressive too, since I'm only offering a pointer and not bringing over the goodies. . | . Heather Stern | star@starshine.org --->*<--- Starshine Technical Services - * - consulting@starshine.org ' | ` Sysadmin Support and Training | (800) 938-4078 From rick@linuxmafia.com Mon Jan 13 16:29:31 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18YExM-0005t8-00 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2003 16:29:28 -0800 Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 16:29:24 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] coax crimping tools, anyone? Message-ID: <20030114002924.GM7524@linuxmafia.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1131 Lines: 27 Quoting Sean Wolfe (Sean.Wolfe@ticketmaster.com): > Hey folks, long time lurker, first time poster. > > New to the area, and I need to get a crimp re-done on a coax connector. > These days all I have is cat 5 stuff. Does anybody know of a decent > networking shop? Or, does anybody have the tools? I can return the favor > with, uh, Sharks or Warriors tickets? I note Heather's thorough response to your question. Welcome! If you ever need a really _good_ crimper, look no further than one of the Crimpmaster series from Ideal Industries, available at Graybar Electric Co., Inc. (http://www.graybar.com/). I have one with RJ45 and RJ11 inserts, but haven't ever bought the inserts for any of the co-ax standards. Graybar is one place the real telco and professional cabling people get their tools and supplies. It's difficult to beat their quality, in general. Of course, it also might be tough to justify a really good tool for one-time usage. -- Cheers, There are only 10 types of people in this world -- Rick Moen those who understand binary arithmetic and those who don't. rick@linuxmafia.com From jose_sanchez79@yahoo.com Wed Jan 15 15:22:22 2003 Received: from web20108.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.226.45]) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18YwrT-0008Cp-00 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2003 15:22:19 -0800 Message-ID: <20030115232010.49119.qmail@web20108.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [12.7.80.110] by web20108.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 15 Jan 2003 15:20:10 PST Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 15:20:10 -0800 (PST) From: Jose Sanchez To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [conspire] Do you Yoper? Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 527 Lines: 17 Is anyone using this distro www.yoper.com? I'm looking forward to installing it on my K7. Quoting from yoper.com: Yoper is one of the most standardised linux's that you will find and hardware performance is better than that of any other commercial OS. With Yoper it is possible to import packages from all the other major distros including rpm's, deb's, and tgz packages. Jose __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From jlundy@spellblade.com Thu Jan 16 12:01:30 2003 Received: from spellblade.com ([63.193.4.234] ident=postfix) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18ZGCV-0000We-00 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 12:01:21 -0800 Received: from ghent (adsl-64-171-185-118.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [64.171.185.118]) by spellblade.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 603F83EBAC for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2003 13:37:00 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <01f101c2bd9b$cc781ec0$6501a8c0@ghent> From: "Jason Lundy" To: References: <20030108005840.28222.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> <20030108012237.GP8302@linuxmafia.com> Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 12:13:56 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Subject: [conspire] local linux QA jobs Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 318 Lines: 10 Hi all, Im normally a lurker, but getting desperate to find a decent job recently. Anyone familiar with any linux QA jobs in the local area? I spent nearly 3 years at nVidia doing the QA on the linux drivers, and am trying to find something close to the same type of position if any are available. :) Jason Lundy From rick@linuxmafia.com Sat Jan 25 04:32:45 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18cPUK-0005Hc-00 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2003 04:32:44 -0800 Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 04:32:44 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20030125123243.GQ13123@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] CABAL meeting, Saturday the 25th Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 463 Lines: 12 Well, it's time for another CABAL meeting, today (Saturday) at 4 PM, onwards until the witching hour. Two people may be coming with machines to do installations on, that I know of, one of them from Berkeley. Other than that, no special plans, but please feel welcome to come and have fun. -- Cheers, "My file system's got no nodes!" Rick Moen "How does it shell?" rick@linuxmafia.com From jose_sanchez79@yahoo.com Wed Feb 05 12:03:50 2003 Received: from web20110.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.226.47]) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18gVls-0000fw-00 for ; Wed, 05 Feb 2003 12:03:49 -0800 Message-ID: <20030205195958.94241.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [12.7.80.110] by web20110.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 05 Feb 2003 11:59:58 PST Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:59:58 -0800 (PST) From: Jose Sanchez To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [conspire] Linux PCMCIA NIC... Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 416 Lines: 13 I hava an old fujitsu laptop which I want to setup as a router/firewall but it only has one PCMCIA slot. I want to put at least two 10/100 NICs. Is there a vendor that sells a PCMCIA card with more than one RJ-45 port that linux supports? Thanks in advance. -Jose __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From nkj@namodn.com Wed Feb 05 12:26:01 2003 Received: from namodn.com ([209.0.100.49] helo=claire.namodn.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18gW7E-0000Vy-00; Wed, 05 Feb 2003 12:25:52 -0800 Received: from nkj by claire.namodn.com with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 18gW3h-0006V4-00; Wed, 05 Feb 2003 12:22:13 -0800 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:22:13 -0800 From: Nick Jennings To: Rick Moen Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] my old acer laptop Message-ID: <20030205122213.A16030@namodn.com> References: <20030105203053.GJ30129@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20030105203053.GJ30129@linuxmafia.com>; from rick@linuxmafia.com on Sun, Jan 05, 2003 at 12:30:53PM -0800 Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 752 Lines: 18 On Sun, Jan 05, 2003 at 12:30:53PM -0800, Rick Moen wrote: > > If the laptop has at least _32 MB_, then I'd say getting X11 going is > very worthwhile. Less than that, maybe, but you won't get tremendous > mileage out of it. Less than 16 MB, don't bother. Although RAM is important, it's not the only factor. My Libretto 100cts has 32mb of RAM, and the CPU is overclocked to be 200mhz I believe. However X is horribly slow, even compiled from source (I'm running FreeBSD on it), and with evilwm as my windowmanager. Mozilla is a horrid beast... and why else would you run X if not for a web browser? I suppose it is usefull as a glorified console, but only if you really need that kind of thing, which it sounds like he doesnt. - Nick From nkj@namodn.com Wed Feb 05 12:26:44 2003 Received: from namodn.com ([209.0.100.49] helo=claire.namodn.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18gW83-0000WC-00 for ; Wed, 05 Feb 2003 12:26:43 -0800 Received: from nkj by claire.namodn.com with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 18gW4W-0006VA-00; Wed, 05 Feb 2003 12:23:04 -0800 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:23:04 -0800 From: Nick Jennings To: Jose Sanchez Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Linux PCMCIA NIC... Message-ID: <20030205122304.B16030@namodn.com> References: <20030205195958.94241.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20030205195958.94241.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com>; from jose_sanchez79@yahoo.com on Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 11:59:58AM -0800 Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 721 Lines: 22 That would be cool, let me know if you find anything. On Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 11:59:58AM -0800, Jose Sanchez wrote: > I hava an old fujitsu laptop which I want to setup as > a router/firewall but it only has one PCMCIA slot. I > want to put at least two 10/100 NICs. Is there a > vendor that sells a PCMCIA card with more than one > RJ-45 port that linux supports? Thanks in advance. > > -Jose > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > conspire mailing list > conspire@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire > From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Feb 05 12:36:39 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18gWHe-0000YW-00 for ; Wed, 05 Feb 2003 12:36:38 -0800 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:36:38 -0800 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] my old acer laptop Message-ID: <20030205203638.GS22442@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030105203053.GJ30129@linuxmafia.com> <20030205122213.A16030@namodn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030205122213.A16030@namodn.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 996 Lines: 21 Quoting Nick Jennings (nkj@namodn.com): > Although RAM is important, it's not the only factor. My Libretto 100cts > has 32mb of RAM, and the CPU is overclocked to be 200mhz I believe. > However X is horribly slow, even compiled from source (I'm running > FreeBSD on it), and with evilwm as my windowmanager. Mozilla is a horrid > beast... and why else would you run X if not for a web browser? A Libretto's kind of a special case: Even more than most laptops, the Libretto palmtops are designed to keep power draw to a bare minimum. So, among other things, they use very slow hard drives that are kept spun down a lot of the time. If memory serves. Same thing with that IBM PC110 palmtop series. -- Cheers, "The front line of defense against such sophisticated Rick Moen viruses is a continually evolving computer operating rick@linuxmafia.com system that attracts the efforts of eager software developers." -- Bill Gates From star@starshine.org Wed Feb 05 12:53:58 2003 Received: from antares.starshine.org ([216.240.40.177] helo=antares.in.starshine.org ident=postfix) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18gWYO-00066T-00 for ; Wed, 05 Feb 2003 12:53:57 -0800 Received: from gemini.starshine.org (gemini.starshine.org [216.240.40.169]) by antares.in.starshine.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C13B3987; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 09:00:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by gemini.starshine.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 2382A140E8; Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:40:14 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:40:13 -0800 To: Jose Sanchez Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Linux PCMCIA NIC... Message-ID: <20030205204013.GA4835@starshine.org> References: <20030205195958.94241.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030205195958.94241.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: star@starshine.org (Heather Stern) Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 866 Lines: 21 On Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 11:59:58AM -0800, Jose Sanchez wrote: > I hava an old fujitsu laptop which I want to setup as > a router/firewall but it only has one PCMCIA slot. I > want to put at least two 10/100 NICs. Is there a > vendor that sells a PCMCIA card with more than one > RJ-45 port that linux supports? Thanks in advance. > > -Jose I'm not real sure about that, but I know as of a couple of years ago there was somebody selling a oneslot/typeI converter to twoslot/typeII-typeIII. Thing stick out of your computer and looks lame, but provides that extra slot. It isn't the pcmcia bridge that limits the number of connections. All the best... . | . Heather Stern | star@starshine.org --->*<--- Starshine Technical Services - * - consulting@starshine.org ' | ` Sysadmin Support and Training | (800) 938-4078 From star@starshine.org Sat Feb 08 11:36:10 2003 Received: from antares.starshine.org ([216.240.40.177] helo=antares.in.starshine.org ident=postfix) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18halc-000627-00; Sat, 08 Feb 2003 11:36:05 -0800 Received: from gemini.starshine.org (gemini.starshine.org [216.240.40.169]) by antares.in.starshine.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCDD93985; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 07:41:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by gemini.starshine.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 52A17140E7; Sat, 8 Feb 2003 11:20:25 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 11:20:25 -0800 To: Nick Jennings Cc: Rick Moen , conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] my old acer laptop Message-ID: <20030208192025.GA7265@starshine.org> References: <20030105203053.GJ30129@linuxmafia.com> <20030205122213.A16030@namodn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030205122213.A16030@namodn.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: star@starshine.org (Heather Stern) Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1488 Lines: 40 On Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 12:22:13PM -0800, Nick Jennings wrote: > On Sun, Jan 05, 2003 at 12:30:53PM -0800, Rick Moen wrote: > > > > If the laptop has at least _32 MB_, then I'd say getting X11 going is > > very worthwhile. Less than that, maybe, but you won't get tremendous > > mileage out of it. Less than 16 MB, don't bother. > Although RAM is important, it's not the only factor. My Libretto 100cts > has 32mb of RAM, and the CPU is overclocked to be 200mhz I believe. > However X is horribly slow, even compiled from source (I'm running > FreeBSD on it), Have you tried telling it to make TinyX instead of the usual pile of bits? > and with evilwm as my windowmanager. Mozilla is a horrid > beast... Dillo. It may not do SSL nor javastuff but it certainly doesn't waste space on them, either. > and why else would you run X if not for a web browser? I suppose there might be a tiny game or some network tracing tool like ethereal. If you want a console-onle system though even 8 MB is acceptable (for doing one thing at a time) and 32 MB is decent (for comfortable multi-tasking, or one instance of emacs). > I suppose it is usefull as a glorified console, but only if you really > need that kind of thing, which it sounds like he doesnt. > > - Nick . | . Heather Stern | star@starshine.org --->*<--- Starshine Technical Services - * - consulting@starshine.org ' | ` Sysadmin Support and Training | (800) 938-4078 From nkj@namodn.com Thu Feb 13 10:44:25 2003 Received: from namodn.com ([209.0.100.49] helo=claire.namodn.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18jOLH-00038c-00; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 10:44:15 -0800 Received: from nkj by claire.namodn.com with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 18jOGy-0000n6-00; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 10:39:48 -0800 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 10:39:48 -0800 From: Nick Jennings To: Heather Stern Cc: Rick Moen , conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] my old acer laptop Message-ID: <20030213103948.E1981@namodn.com> References: <20030105203053.GJ30129@linuxmafia.com> <20030205122213.A16030@namodn.com> <20030208192025.GA7265@starshine.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20030208192025.GA7265@starshine.org>; from star@starshine.org on Sat, Feb 08, 2003 at 11:20:25AM -0800 Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 272 Lines: 11 On Sat, Feb 08, 2003 at 11:20:25AM -0800, Heather Stern wrote: > > Have you tried telling it to make TinyX instead of the usual pile of > bits? Hmmm, no, can you point me to some docs on how to do so? I'm also curious as to what features you loose from TinyX - Nick From macke@scripps.edu Thu Feb 13 12:44:34 2003 Received: from ns0.scripps.edu ([192.42.82.58]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18jQDg-0003qC-00 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 12:44:32 -0800 Received: from antigen.scripps.edu (antigen.scripps.edu [137.131.200.100]) by ns0.scripps.edu (8.11.6/TSRI-4.1rx) with SMTP id h1DKdu805179 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 12:39:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay1.scripps.edu(137.131.200.29) by antigen.scripps.edu via csmap id 19432; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 12:32:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from fermat.scripps.edu (fermat.scripps.edu [137.131.252.33]) by relay1.scripps.edu (8.11.6/TSRI-4.2rAV) with ESMTP id h1DKdkZ21479 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 12:39:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (macke@localhost) by fermat.scripps.edu (8.9.2/TSRI-3.0.1) with SMTP id MAA50940 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 12:39:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 12:39:45 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Macke X-Sender: macke@fermat To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [conspire] gigabit for linux? Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1399 Lines: 40 Hi, I want to make an upgrad to my little home Linux cluster that is 1. a little too ambitious for someone with my level of Linux system chops 2. a bit involved to expect to do at an install fest. Here's the scoop: I have 4 CPU cluster 2 750MHz laptops, 1 750Mhz tower and one 2.26GHz tower on one of those 8 port 10/100 Base/T cable/router/switches. The 2.26GHz has a 120GB disk nfs mounted to the to the other 3 and does double duty for MPI jobs as both boss (node-0) and a worker. I use this "cluster" (pushing it I know) to develop codes that are used to search Genbank for RNA 2d structures. Genbank is big (90GB and growing) and while none of the 3 750Mhz nodes can consume data at 100Mbps speed, the 3 of them taken together can consume data faster than the 100Mbps the nfs server can send to the switch. So, what I want to do is: 1. Get a new 2+GHz box and install in my n/w (No problem here) 2. Convert that 750MHz tower box to a gigabit server. The plan would be to move that 120GB drive from the 2.26GHz box (will still have an 80GB) and add another such driver so that there were 2*120GB on hda and hdc. Plus add a gigabit card, etc, etc. And this is what I know I'm not ready to do by myself. Any suggestions? My consulting budget is not large, buts its not zero either, especially if I could help and thus learn a bit more of this stuff thanks, tom From rick@linuxmafia.com Sat Feb 15 00:52:06 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18jy3I-0008QX-00; Sat, 15 Feb 2003 00:52:04 -0800 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 00:52:04 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20030215085204.GH21981@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] Installfests -- tomorrow and then March 8 Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 2226 Lines: 46 We haven't had a CABAL installfest for a while, and it's time to do it again. Tom Macke suggested we do one this weekend (Saturday, February 15) at the Cow Palace (Robert Austin Computer Show). Part of the problem with that date is that it's a 3rd Saturday. (CABAL meets 2nd and 4th Saturday evenings.) Speaking for myself, I'm not willing to tie myself down more than two Saturdays a month for CABAL. The next reasonable date that _is_ a CABAL Saturday is Saturday, March 8, at the Oakland Convention Center. So, we'll do that, then. But that reminds me that there _is_ an installfest tomorrow, anyway -- SVLUG's installfest in San Jose, 11 AM - 4 PM. It's at the usual spot, Accent Technologies, 1880 Hartog Drive @ Brokaw. Details are here: http://www.svlug.org/directions/accent.shtml I'll definitely be there -- CD collection and all. I'll have the latest Knoppix disk image, among other things. If you haven't yet played with Knoppix, you're missing a triple treat: 1. Best hardware detection you've ever seen, period. 2. Incredibly good advanced desktop system, running by default entirely from a CD. Give copies to MS-Windows-using friends, and watch them spread like wildfire (because, of course, it lets them experience a full-blown modern Unix system without having to distub their hard drives). 3. The easiest way ever invented to install Debian for x86 onto a hard drive. (There's an optional script that installs it to a local hard drive, after booting the CD-based desktop system.) My friend Karsten Self, in fact, hands out piles of Knoppix disks to people, for all of the above reasons -- with an informational flyer that you might find interesting, text preseved here: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/debian-knoppix-faq I also have the latest 2.0 release candidate of the LNX-BBC mini-disk (which burns to credit-card-sized CD media). See you there. -- Cheers, It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. Rick Moen It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, rick@ The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning, linuxmafia.com It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. From rick@linuxmafia.com Fri Feb 21 04:47:57 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18mCar-0006XS-00 for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 04:47:57 -0800 Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 04:47:56 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] gigabit for linux? Message-ID: <20030221124756.GA1831@linuxmafia.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 6258 Lines: 143 Quoting Tom Macke (macke@scripps.edu): > I want to make an upgrad to my little home Linux cluster that is > > 1. a little too ambitious for someone with my level of Linux > system chops > 2. a bit involved to expect to do at an install fest. > > Here's the scoop: > > I have 4 CPU cluster 2 750MHz laptops, 1 750Mhz tower and one 2.26GHz > tower on one of those 8 port 10/100 Base/T cable/router/switches. > > The 2.26GHz has a 120GB disk nfs mounted to the to the other 3 and does > double duty for MPI jobs as both boss (node-0) and a worker. > > I use this "cluster" (pushing it I know) to develop codes that are used to > search Genbank for RNA 2d structures. Genbank is big (90GB and growing) > and while none of the 3 750Mhz nodes can consume data at 100Mbps speed, > the 3 of them taken together can consume data faster than the 100Mbps the > nfs server can send to the switch. > > So, what I want to do is: > > 1. Get a new 2+GHz box and install in my n/w (No problem here) > 2. Convert that 750MHz tower box to a gigabit server. The plan would > be to move that 120GB drive from the 2.26GHz box (will still have an > 80GB) and add another such drive so that there were 2*120GB on hda and > hdc. Plus add a gigabit card, etc, etc. And this is what I know I'm > not ready to do by myself. > > Any suggestions? My consulting budget is not large, buts its not zero > either, especially if I could help and thus learn a bit more of this > stuff Tom -- In order to properly research your question, I went straight to a friend of mine who's an expert on clusters. I sent him a short e-mail inquiry, and then sat back and waited for the expected outpouring of wisdom. Guess what? Here's the exchange: >> What do you recommend that people use currently, in the way of GigE >> (copper) NICs, on Linux? > > You know, I haven't found the answer to that yet. Right now I'm > thinking that just getting mobos integrated with GigE is probably the > best solution, but I don't really have any numbers to back that up. Bah. So much for consulting the experts. Not a super-useful answer, but he does sort of have a point, though: A bit of casual study confirmed that one of the issues with GigE adapters is bus throughput: The PCI-card versions divide into high and so-so performance categories, according to whether they're 64-bit or 32-bit cards. Obviously, putting them on the motherboard will both remove this problem and lower costs. Of course, if you're using existing motherboards, this isn't an option. Another fact to note is that there will be serious CPU loading. PII boxes might end up being CPU-bound, which is otherwise almost unheard of among Linux systems. Since the most common application of GigE is in computational clusters, those machines would have _two_ heavy draws on CPU capacity. Anyhow, assuming you are _not_ running CPU-bound, your GigE throughput onto the wire may top out at 30-55 megabytes/sec, depending on the card. MTU (maximum transmission unit) will, as I'm sure you know, need to be upped considerably: MTU = 6000 is pretty common, or even 9000 aka "jumbo". Let me put the last and best first. Here's a list of very useful links, resulting from my research: Reviews: http://www.cs.uni.edu/~gray/gig-over-copper/ Chipsets: http://www.anime.net/~goemon/cardz/ 32-bit cards: http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/gigeth32bit/gig-eth-32bit-2.html The first of those URLs is probably best, pertaining to a well-maintained page of review information on GigE NICs for Linux. Highly recommended. That page (which I found late in my search) almost makes my notes on GigE chipsets and Linux drivers obsolete, but I offer them below, anyway: Alteon Networks AceNIC, 3Com 3C985 and NetGear GA620 and versions of the AceNIC Gigabit Ethernet adapter sold by other vendors: driver for 2.2/2.3 kernels, by Jes Sorenson. Carried forward into 2.4 series. National Semiconductor NS83820 ("Tigon1/Tigon2") chipset; ns83820 driver. Driver was developed at CERN. NetGear GA620 is still probably the cheapest card. Other cards with this chipset: D-Link DGE500T. SMC 9452TX. Ark Soho-GA2000T. Asante Giganix. Packet Engines "Yellowfin" GNIC, Driver for kernel versions 2.0.0 through 2.5. Driver was written to support the Beowulf project. Packet Engines "Hamachi" GNIC-II. Driver for kernel versions 2.0 through 2.3. Driver was written to support the Beowulf project. www.nersc.gov page clarifies that 2.4.x driver is also available. Intel Pro/1000 gigabit model 825xx (e1000 driver). Driver is still available on a third-party basis at Intel, but is now GPLed. Card is also sold as Compaq NC6xxx/NC7xxx. Often built into motherboards. 64-bit. Inexpensive ($169)! Pretty good performance/stability after some revisions to the driver software. SysKonnect. Driver is available both in the standard kernel and from the company. Very current driver (sk98lin). Expensive cards (64-bit). Syskonnect SK9821 is far and away the performance champion among all cards to date -- costs about $570. (At that price, you're almost up into Myrinet range.) Altima (nee Broadcom) NetXtreme BCM570x (tg3 driver), sometimes built into motherboards. Also separate (later) models AC1000/AC9100. Altima/Broadcom chipset is also used in NetGear GA302T. 3Com 3c996BT. Driver (bcm5700) supplied by 3Com. 64-bit card. Performance not great. In short, there seem to be quite a few decent choices in supported chipsets, with your choice depending on how much you want to spend and whether you have a 64-bit slot at your disposal. Back at my old firm, we sold the two Packet Engine cards first. Those were pretty much the first to be supported on Linux at all. Probably, therefore, they have the most mature drivers. Later on, we sold quite a few of the NetGear GA620, which was very popular on account of price. I've been out of the loop on GigE hardware for a year or so, though, so part of the point of my research was to verify which cards still have current Linux drivers (e.g., for Linux 2.4.x). Happily, it seems that pretty much everything does. 'Hope that helps. -- Cheers, Rick Moen Bu^so^stopu min per kulero. rick@linuxmafia.com From biow@bigfoot.com Sun Feb 23 10:17:03 2003 Received: from [65.127.216.150] (helo=mail.pcmagic.net) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18n0gQ-00088V-00 for ; Sun, 23 Feb 2003 10:17:02 -0800 Received: (qmail 50831 invoked by uid 88); 23 Feb 2003 10:11:41 -0800 Received: from unknown (HELO rhxp) (biow@66.81.153.219) by 0 with SMTP; 23 Feb 2003 10:11:41 -0800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Ed Biow To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 10:11:16 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200302231011.16448.biow@bigfoot.com> Subject: [conspire] NTFS Resizing Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1073 Lines: 31 There was a thread on this forum a coupla-few of months back about utilit= ies=20 for resizing NTFS partitions. Mandrake has just released 9.1 RC1, which= =20 includes NTFS resizing, apparently from ntfsresize utility=20 (http://mlf.linux.rulez.org/mlf/ezaz/ntfsresize.html), part of the Linux-= NTFS=20 Project: http://linux-ntfs.sourceforge.net/. I believe this is the same=20 resizer used in Xandros. I think I'll probably attend the InstallFest on the 8th of March, if that= is=20 still in the offing. Just out of curiosity, does FreeBSD or its ilk eve= r=20 get installed at one of these affairs? I tried installing 4.6 on a box = just=20 to play around with it recently, but was rather put off by the different = hard=20 drive naming conventions and the fact that it didn't see my partition tab= le=20 the way I envisaged it existing, so I aborted (but apparently not before = the=20 OS wrote its bootloader to my MBR!) I don't think I'm quite ready for=20 FreeBSD, but I'd like to give Redhat 8.0 a spin or maybe SuSE 8.0 if it i= s=20 available. =20 From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Feb 23 11:45:58 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18n24T-0000tT-00 for ; Sun, 23 Feb 2003 11:45:57 -0800 Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 11:45:55 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] NTFS Resizing Message-ID: <20030223194554.GE18312@linuxmafia.com> References: <200302231011.16448.biow@bigfoot.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200302231011.16448.biow@bigfoot.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 2947 Lines: 61 Quoting Ed Biow (biow@bigfoot.com): > There was a thread on this forum a coupla-few of months back about > utilities for resizing NTFS partitions. Mandrake has just released > 9.1 RC1, which includes NTFS resizing, apparently from ntfsresize > utility (http://mlf.linux.rulez.org/mlf/ezaz/ntfsresize.html), part of > the Linux-NTFS Project: http://linux-ntfs.sourceforge.net/. Hi, Ed! Yes, thank you for bringing this up. Yes, Mandrakesoft is the first distribution publisher to include ntfsresize in its installer. ntfsresize has been included in Linux-Mandrake's "Cooker" experimental distribution for quite a while, and has been in 9.1 pre-releases since Beta 3. They reportedly have a nice graphical front-end on it. > I believe this is the same resizer used in Xandros. Actually, _that_ one is PQDisk, a scriptable version of PowerQuest's Partition Magic. Please note that the NTFS resizer is reportedly included only in the Xandros Desktop OS _Deluxe_ edition, not Standard Edition. I try to keep my http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/ntfs document updated, on these matters, mostly courtesy of occasional e-mails from Szabolcs Szakacsits, author of ntfsresize. > I think I'll probably attend the InstallFest on the 8th of March, if that is > still in the offing. Just out of curiosity, does FreeBSD or its ilk ever > get installed at one of these affairs? Pretty much at every one of them. I bring a 4-disk set of 4.7 aka FreeBSD-stable. Although I have an August 2001 snapshot of 5.0 aka FreeBSD-current, it's way out of date, and I really ought to throw it out, I guess. FreeBSD is very straight-forward to install. NetBSD is less so, though it can be a lifesaver on some of the more exotic non-x86 architectures. i have NetBSD 1.5.2 disks for a bunch of architectures. I have a three-CD set of OpenBSD for i386 as well. Its installer is, well, cranky and paranoid, as is fitting. > I don't think I'm quite ready for FreeBSD, but I'd like to give Redhat > 8.0 a spin or maybe SuSE 8.0 if it is available. We certainly have RH 8.0. From a certain set of rumblings one hears out on the Net, 8.1 might actually be out by then -- or not. SuSE would certainly be fun, but I'd encourage you to buy a boxed set if you wish to try it. We bring to installfests the 7.0 "evaluation" single-CD version. SuSE Linux AG's business model entails giving you various incentives to buy the boxed sets, including more-recent versions of software and many, many more CD-ROMs. All of those boxed-set CDs contain non-redistributable proprietary software. Therefore, the disks as a whole may not lawfully be duplicated and redistributed. On the various editions of SuSE, please see: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/suse-product-strategy -- Cheers, There are only 10 types of people in this world -- Rick Moen those who understand binary arithmetic and those who don't. rick@linuxmafia.com From nkj@namodn.com Mon Feb 24 10:24:19 2003 Received: from namodn.com ([209.0.100.49] helo=claire.namodn.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18nNGv-0004DF-00; Mon, 24 Feb 2003 10:24:13 -0800 Received: from nkj by claire.namodn.com with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 18nNC5-0004lZ-00; Mon, 24 Feb 2003 10:19:13 -0800 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 10:19:13 -0800 From: Nick Jennings To: Rick Moen Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] NTFS Resizing Message-ID: <20030224101913.A15085@namodn.com> References: <200302231011.16448.biow@bigfoot.com> <20030223194554.GE18312@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20030223194554.GE18312@linuxmafia.com>; from rick@linuxmafia.com on Sun, Feb 23, 2003 at 11:45:55AM -0800 Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 3939 Lines: 84 Speaking of Mandrake, is anyone running it right now? I've installed it at work to replace my FreeBSD 4.7 system because I need Wine to work properly and would like to use browser plugins etc. without bothering with linux emulation (which worked fine, but the mozilla versions were a bit dated, and the performance was slugish compared to the native mozilla build). I'm wondering if Mandrake has a setup program for wine, I mean I could configure it "the old fashion way", but then I don't see why I should have installed Mandrake if I have to do that. :) I'm asking here first in an attempt to avoid joining yet another mailing list. - Nick On Sun, Feb 23, 2003 at 11:45:55AM -0800, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Ed Biow (biow@bigfoot.com): > > > There was a thread on this forum a coupla-few of months back about > > utilities for resizing NTFS partitions. Mandrake has just released > > 9.1 RC1, which includes NTFS resizing, apparently from ntfsresize > > utility (http://mlf.linux.rulez.org/mlf/ezaz/ntfsresize.html), part of > > the Linux-NTFS Project: http://linux-ntfs.sourceforge.net/. > > Hi, Ed! Yes, thank you for bringing this up. Yes, Mandrakesoft is the > first distribution publisher to include ntfsresize in its installer. > ntfsresize has been included in Linux-Mandrake's "Cooker" experimental > distribution for quite a while, and has been in 9.1 pre-releases since > Beta 3. They reportedly have a nice graphical front-end on it. > > > I believe this is the same resizer used in Xandros. > > Actually, _that_ one is PQDisk, a scriptable version of PowerQuest's > Partition Magic. Please note that the NTFS resizer is reportedly > included only in the Xandros Desktop OS _Deluxe_ edition, not Standard > Edition. > > I try to keep my http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/ntfs document > updated, on these matters, mostly courtesy of occasional e-mails from > Szabolcs Szakacsits, author of ntfsresize. > > > I think I'll probably attend the InstallFest on the 8th of March, if that is > > still in the offing. Just out of curiosity, does FreeBSD or its ilk ever > > get installed at one of these affairs? > > Pretty much at every one of them. I bring a 4-disk set of 4.7 aka > FreeBSD-stable. Although I have an August 2001 snapshot of 5.0 aka > FreeBSD-current, it's way out of date, and I really ought to throw it > out, I guess. > > FreeBSD is very straight-forward to install. NetBSD is less so, though > it can be a lifesaver on some of the more exotic non-x86 architectures. > i have NetBSD 1.5.2 disks for a bunch of architectures. I have a > three-CD set of OpenBSD for i386 as well. Its installer is, well, > cranky and paranoid, as is fitting. > > > I don't think I'm quite ready for FreeBSD, but I'd like to give Redhat > > 8.0 a spin or maybe SuSE 8.0 if it is available. > > We certainly have RH 8.0. From a certain set of rumblings one hears out > on the Net, 8.1 might actually be out by then -- or not. SuSE would > certainly be fun, but I'd encourage you to buy a boxed set if you wish > to try it. We bring to installfests the 7.0 "evaluation" single-CD > version. SuSE Linux AG's business model entails giving you various > incentives to buy the boxed sets, including more-recent versions of > software and many, many more CD-ROMs. All of those boxed-set CDs > contain non-redistributable proprietary software. Therefore, the disks > as a whole may not lawfully be duplicated and redistributed. > > On the various editions of SuSE, please see: > http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/suse-product-strategy > > -- > Cheers, There are only 10 types of people in this world -- > Rick Moen those who understand binary arithmetic and those who don't. > rick@linuxmafia.com > > _______________________________________________ > conspire mailing list > conspire@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire > From rick@linuxmafia.com Mon Feb 24 11:01:00 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18nNqV-0001aO-00 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2003 11:00:59 -0800 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 11:00:59 -0800 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] NTFS Resizing Message-ID: <20030224190059.GQ18312@linuxmafia.com> References: <200302231011.16448.biow@bigfoot.com> <20030223194554.GE18312@linuxmafia.com> <20030224101913.A15085@namodn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030224101913.A15085@namodn.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1599 Lines: 33 Quoting Nick Jennings (nkj@namodn.com): > Speaking of Mandrake, is anyone running it right now? I've installed it at > work to replace my FreeBSD 4.7 system because I need Wine to work properly > and would like to use browser plugins etc. without bothering with linux > emulation (which worked fine, but the mozilla versions were a bit dated, > and the performance was slugish compared to the native mozilla build). I haven't installed Mandrake in a while (will attempt to get the 9.1 RC1 ISOs soon), but your mentioning WINE setup reminds me about a different option you might consider: Knoppix. If you've heard about Knoppix at all, you probably know it as a very full-featured desktop distribution packaged as a "demo" CD. I.e., people can get full use out of it (on i386 PCs) without disturbing their hard drive contents. What you might not know about is the included optional script to install Knoppix to one's hard drive. I've tried that out, the last two weekends, and it works great. (The XFS installation option appears buggy, but ext2/ext3 and ReiserFS works fine.) As always with Knoppix, hardware recognition is top-notch, and WINE is among the many things that install already set up and working. http://www.knoppix.org/ http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/debian-knoppix http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/debian-knoppix-faq -- Cheers, Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based, Rick Moen not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed, rick@linuxmafia.com modern-American-English-usage-improvement association. From nkj@namodn.com Mon Feb 24 11:14:34 2003 Received: from namodn.com ([209.0.100.49] helo=claire.namodn.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18nO3Y-0003b9-00; Mon, 24 Feb 2003 11:14:28 -0800 Received: from nkj by claire.namodn.com with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 18nNyi-0005tb-00; Mon, 24 Feb 2003 11:09:28 -0800 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 11:09:28 -0800 From: Nick Jennings To: Rick Moen Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] NTFS Resizing Message-ID: <20030224110928.A21135@namodn.com> References: <200302231011.16448.biow@bigfoot.com> <20030223194554.GE18312@linuxmafia.com> <20030224101913.A15085@namodn.com> <20030224190059.GQ18312@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20030224190059.GQ18312@linuxmafia.com>; from rick@linuxmafia.com on Mon, Feb 24, 2003 at 11:00:59AM -0800 Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 3506 Lines: 73 I've heard allot about Knoppix, and even recommend it to people who are interested in Linux but probably aren't ready to wipe out their system just to check it out. The installation script makes it easy if they ever decide to. I also hear it's Debian based (I am a long time Debian user myself), and I might want to seriously consider this for my home machine. Here at work though I spent allot of time deliberating over what I distro I should use. The reason I chose Mandrake is because for me it's the best of both spectrums of the Linux world (the spectrum ranging from free and less support commercial;y: Debian, Slackware etc. to requiring money to use: Lindows, Xandros, and to some extent Lycoris). With Mandrake I know Wine and WineX will work good, Codeweavers etc. Commercial packages are usually packaged for Mandrake right behind Redhat. RPMs, though I don't like them as much as DEBs, are what most companies package their products for, and at work I just don't want the hassle of getting things working on a Debian system. I have the option of paying for commercial products, without having to pay for the Distro itself (like I would have to with Lindows or Xandros, and Lycoris if I want to install software packages for it via. Click-N-Run). I am very happy with Mandrake too, it "just works" and I don't have to fiddle with much in the way of system settings, GUI interfaces for the stuff I do have to fiddle with are really nice, especially when I have the responsibility of "showing off" Linux to my Windows using peers. Debian just isn't as impressive to the untrained eye. :) - Nick On Mon, Feb 24, 2003 at 11:00:59AM -0800, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Nick Jennings (nkj@namodn.com): > > > Speaking of Mandrake, is anyone running it right now? I've installed it at > > work to replace my FreeBSD 4.7 system because I need Wine to work properly > > and would like to use browser plugins etc. without bothering with linux > > emulation (which worked fine, but the mozilla versions were a bit dated, > > and the performance was slugish compared to the native mozilla build). > > I haven't installed Mandrake in a while (will attempt to get the 9.1 RC1 > ISOs soon), but your mentioning WINE setup reminds me about a different > option you might consider: Knoppix. > > If you've heard about Knoppix at all, you probably know it as a very > full-featured desktop distribution packaged as a "demo" CD. I.e., > people can get full use out of it (on i386 PCs) without disturbing their > hard drive contents. > > What you might not know about is the included optional script to install > Knoppix to one's hard drive. I've tried that out, the last two > weekends, and it works great. (The XFS installation option appears > buggy, but ext2/ext3 and ReiserFS works fine.) As always with Knoppix, > hardware recognition is top-notch, and WINE is among the many things > that install already set up and working. > > http://www.knoppix.org/ > http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/debian-knoppix > http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/debian-knoppix-faq > > -- > Cheers, Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based, > Rick Moen not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed, > rick@linuxmafia.com modern-American-English-usage-improvement association. > > _______________________________________________ > conspire mailing list > conspire@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire > From rick@linuxmafia.com Mon Feb 24 11:36:14 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18nOOb-0007SB-00 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2003 11:36:13 -0800 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 11:36:13 -0800 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] NTFS Resizing Message-ID: <20030224193613.GR18312@linuxmafia.com> References: <200302231011.16448.biow@bigfoot.com> <20030223194554.GE18312@linuxmafia.com> <20030224101913.A15085@namodn.com> <20030224190059.GQ18312@linuxmafia.com> <20030224110928.A21135@namodn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030224110928.A21135@namodn.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1929 Lines: 46 Quoting Nick Jennings (nkj@namodn.com): [Your work computer:] > The reason I chose Mandrake is because for me it's the best of both spectrums > of the Linux world (the spectrum ranging from free and less support > commercial;y: Debian, Slackware etc. to requiring money to use: Lindows, > Xandros, and to some extent Lycoris). I found the hardware autoprobing in Mandrake 9.0 to be really good. One CABAL meeting attendee brought a Sony VAIO with a Firewire CD-ROM drive, and I was very pessimistic about Linux installations via the CD drive, but Mandrake had no problem with this or any other chipset on the machine. > With Mandrake I know Wine and WineX will work good, Codeweavers etc. Good point. I seldom have occasion to install non-redistributable software goodies on Linux, so I tend not to follow this. Accordingly, I've never really thought about Crossover Wine Preview / Crossover Plugin / Crossover Office for Knoppix/Debian until just now. But you've motivated me to research it: o Codeweavers probably makes those three projects available in RPM format only. _However_, Debian is one of the five tested/supported Linux distributions. o WINE: Stable versions are apt-gettable from main archives. Daily WINE-CVS is available in unofficial packages using the following sources.list line: deb http://people.debian.org/~andreas/debian wine main > I am very happy with Mandrake too, it "just works" and I don't have to > fiddle with much in the way of system settings, GUI interfaces for the > stuff I do have to fiddle with are really nice, especially when I have > the responsibility of "showing off" Linux to my Windows using peers. Just a point: The above is a fair characterisation of Knoppix, too. -- Cheers, There are only 10 types of people in this world -- Rick Moen those who understand binary arithmetic and those who don't. rick@linuxmafia.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Mon Feb 24 12:08:30 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18nOtq-0005d3-00 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2003 12:08:30 -0800 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 12:08:29 -0800 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] NTFS Resizing Message-ID: <20030224200829.GA18652@linuxmafia.com> References: <200302231011.16448.biow@bigfoot.com> <20030223194554.GE18312@linuxmafia.com> <20030224101913.A15085@namodn.com> <20030224190059.GQ18312@linuxmafia.com> <20030224110928.A21135@namodn.com> <20030224193613.GR18312@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030224193613.GR18312@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 572 Lines: 15 Correcting my prior post: > o Codeweavers probably makes those three projects available in RPM > format only. This turns out to be incorrect: Codeweavers seems to favour tarballs with shell scripts to install them. (I downloaded Crossover Plugin, which as you may realise is a custom-role WINE variant.) -- Cheers, "Open your present...." Rick Moen "No, you open your present...." rick@linuxmafia.com Kaczinski Christmas. -- Unabomber Haiku Contest, CyberLaw mailing list From star@starshine.org Thu Feb 27 10:25:46 2003 Received: from antares.starshine.org ([216.240.40.177] helo=antares.in.starshine.org ident=postfix) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18oSj3-0001Ve-00; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 10:25:46 -0800 Received: from gemini.starshine.org (gemini.starshine.org [216.240.40.169]) by antares.in.starshine.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D242B3987; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 06:30:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by gemini.starshine.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 244AB142D1; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 10:06:43 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 10:06:43 -0800 To: Nick Jennings Cc: Rick Moen , conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] NTFS Resizing Message-ID: <20030227180643.GB24540@starshine.org> References: <200302231011.16448.biow@bigfoot.com> <20030223194554.GE18312@linuxmafia.com> <20030224101913.A15085@namodn.com> <20030224190059.GQ18312@linuxmafia.com> <20030224110928.A21135@namodn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030224110928.A21135@namodn.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: star@starshine.org (Heather Stern) Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 4611 Lines: 92 On Mon, Feb 24, 2003 at 11:09:28AM -0800, Nick Jennings wrote: > I've heard allot about Knoppix, and even recommend it to people who are > interested in Linux but probably aren't ready to wipe out their system > just to check it out. The installation script makes it easy if they > ever decide to. > > I also hear it's Debian based (I am a long time Debian user myself), and > I might want to seriously consider this for my home machine. Here at work > though I spent allot of time deliberating over what I distro I should use. > > The reason I chose Mandrake is because for me it's the best of both spectrums > of the Linux world (the spectrum ranging from free and less support > commercial;y: Debian, Slackware etc. to requiring money to use: Lindows, > Xandros, and to some extent Lycoris). Just to make clear, I don't mind if folk pick Mandrake, they seem to try to keep a stable and coherent distro together, and actually spend some effort on their beta tests. Debian's commerical support includes Libranet and (to a lesser degree) Progeny; Debian's "non" commercial support, at least for laptop users, is very highly regarded. I occasionally see users of other distros pop into the debian-laptops mailing list because it looks like the place with the real answers in it. Personally I find Libranet's installer very pleasant; partition the drive then let it do its thing. One stop at "which kernel" after a batch of stuff copies, and a friendly menu over tasksel after your fresh bootup. Not all menus and "pick some apps" when people haven't learned which apps are which yet. > With Mandrake I know Wine and WineX will work good, Codeweavers etc. Commercial > packages are usually packaged for Mandrake right behind Redhat. RPMs, though > I don't like them as much as DEBs, are what most companies package their > products for, and at work I just don't want the hassle of getting things > working on a Debian system. I'll note, for the record, that Klaus integrated Wine into Knoppix sufficiently well that it runs straight from the CD and is willing to run mswin applications from the msWin machine you're presently running on. Note that for some windows apps, they may not run if they aren't on writable media, and they may try to be a little exuberant about memeorizing their new drive conditions. For the generic case, alien works but the tricky part when moving packages among distros are the pre- and post-install scripts, and whether they affect the part of the system that memorizes sysadmin settings - since many distros have chosen different storage mechanisms for minor details like your network address, paper size, or preferred language... > I have the option of paying for commercial products, without having to pay > for the Distro itself (like I would have to with Lindows or Xandros, and > Lycoris if I want to install software packages for it via. Click-N-Run). > > I am very happy with Mandrake too, it "just works" and I don't have to > fiddle with much in the way of system settings, GUI interfaces for the > stuff I do have to fiddle with are really nice, especially when I have > the responsibility of "showing off" Linux to my Windows using peers. > > Debian just isn't as impressive to the untrained eye. :) With Knoppix, one does not need to be the trained eye in any given flavor of Linux to be impressed. I used it as a baseline to show a bit of Linux to someone who'd asked for a little tour; I'd expected to take them on a spin through the various distro websites, but she was sufficiently distracted by poking into the internationalization abilities and applications present on the disk that we chatted about it, but really didn't get there. It's not perfect. She had some rather complicated Word docs, and OpenOffice didn't do quite as well as AbiWord - and neither of them handled her chinese and english intermix. Kword handled odd character sets as smoothly as the general K environment, but doesn't fully produce msWord format, and she's of course using the more complex features too. But she certainly wasn't afraid of it and happily goofed off in its menu full of apps and toys. But recognizing herself as a power user already in a given app, she was willing to see this as an environment she could get to know. So the lesson other distros need to learn from knoppix is: put an installer on your liveCD eval disks :D . | . Heather Stern | star@starshine.org --->*<--- Starshine Technical Services - * - consulting@starshine.org ' | ` Sysadmin Support and Training | (800) 938-4078 From jose_sanchez79@yahoo.com Thu Feb 27 14:44:08 2003 Received: from web20110.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.226.47]) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18oWkx-0004KA-00 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 14:44:00 -0800 Message-ID: <20030227223811.61025.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [12.7.80.110] by web20110.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 14:38:11 PST Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 14:38:11 -0800 (PST) From: Jose Sanchez To: conspire@linuxmafia.com In-Reply-To: <20030225143030.2244.57447.Mailman@linuxmafia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [conspire] Re: NTFS Resizing Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 745 Lines: 29 The reason I chose Mandrake is because for me it's the best of both spectrums of the Linux world (the spectrum ranging from free and less support commercial;y: Debian, Slackware etc. to requiring money to use: Lindows, Xandros, and to some extent Lycoris). Actually if you want the best of all worlds you can try: Yoper Linux http://www.yoper.com I (college student) personally am tired of using some of these distros because they just make it too easy for you to do anything which really takes the learning experience away. rpm -i abc123.rpm (like my math teacher said, "Baby Food") Peace, Jose __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From nkj@namodn.com Thu Feb 27 15:05:53 2003 Received: from namodn.com ([209.0.100.49] helo=claire.namodn.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18oX68-0004VR-00 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 15:05:53 -0800 Received: from nkj by claire.namodn.com with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 18oX14-0003rV-00; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 15:00:38 -0800 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 15:00:38 -0800 From: Nick Jennings To: Jose Sanchez Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: NTFS Resizing Message-ID: <20030227150038.D10719@namodn.com> References: <20030225143030.2244.57447.Mailman@linuxmafia.com> <20030227223811.61025.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20030227223811.61025.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com>; from jose_sanchez79@yahoo.com on Thu, Feb 27, 2003 at 02:38:11PM -0800 Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 965 Lines: 26 On Thu, Feb 27, 2003 at 02:38:11PM -0800, Jose Sanchez wrote: > Actually if you want the best of all worlds you can > try: > Yoper Linux > http://www.yoper.com > > I (college student) personally am tired of using some > of these distros because they just make it too easy > for you to do anything which really takes the learning > experience away. Well, I've been using Linux since 1997, so it's not about a learning for me, especially while at work and I need to get stuff done and integrate easily and without hassle into the office network environment. I have 5 or so servers here at work as well. Ranging from Fileservers, to Firewalls which run anything from Debian, to RedHat, to SourceMage. So I still get plenty of practice in - and I get paid for it too! :) But I do agree with what you are saying. Someone who is new to linux and actually WANTS to learn about linux might want to avoid the distro's that try to hide everything. - Nick From jose_sanchez79@yahoo.com Thu Feb 27 21:15:46 2003 Received: from web20110.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.226.47]) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18ocs6-0008L9-00 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 21:15:46 -0800 Message-ID: <20030228051028.11433.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [198.144.198.191] by web20110.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 21:10:28 PST Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 21:10:28 -0800 (PST) From: Jose Sanchez To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Cc: nkj@namodn.com In-Reply-To: <20030227150038.D10719@namodn.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [conspire] Re: NTFS Resizing Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1624 Lines: 59 --- Nick Jennings wrote: > On Thu, Feb 27, 2003 at 02:38:11PM -0800, Jose > Sanchez wrote: > > Actually if you want the best of all worlds you > can > > try: > > Yoper Linux > > http://www.yoper.com > > > > I (college student) personally am tired of using > some > > of these distros because they just make it too > easy > > for you to do anything which really takes the > learning > > experience away. > > Well, I've been using Linux since 1997, so it's not > about a learning > for me, especially while at work and I need to get > stuff done > and integrate easily and without hassle into the > office network environment. > > I have 5 or so servers here at work as well. > Ranging from Fileservers, to > Firewalls which run anything from Debian, to > RedHat, to SourceMage. So I > still get plenty of practice in - and I get paid > for it too! :) > > But I do agree with what you are saying. Someone > who is new to linux and > actually WANTS to learn about linux might want to > avoid the distro's that > try to hide everything. > > - Nick > I understand where you are coming from. I guess whatever distro meets your needs is best for you. With people wanting to try linux it is good to have tools that let you resize your partitions (NTFS). I have been running linux since 98, I still remember caldera linux 2.3 with partition magic and lizard . So I still get plenty of practice in - and I get paid for it too! :) Cool. Jose __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From mhigashi@myrddin.imat.com Wed Mar 05 18:51:09 2003 Received: from adsl-207-214-84-142.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net ([207.214.84.142] helo=myrddin.imat.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18qlTR-0007us-00 for ; Wed, 05 Mar 2003 18:51:09 -0800 Received: (from mhigashi@localhost) by myrddin.imat.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h262j6J23127 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 18:45:06 -0800 Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 18:45:06 -0800 From: Mike Higashi To: Cabalists Message-ID: <20030306024506.GB23010@myrddin.imat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i Subject: [conspire] Saturday's InstallFest Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1332 Lines: 28 Rick previously announced on this list that we'll have an InstallFest this coming Saturday, March 8th, as part of the Robert Austin Computer Show which will be held at the Oakland Convention Center. This is a reminder for y'all to come and hang out, and help whoever drops by to get comfortable with Linux. In the past, we've relied on Duncan to contact the Robert Austin folks so that they'll have booth space reserved for us. What's happened the past several InstallFests is that when I get there to check in and set up, they have no knowledge of us being there, and scramble to find somewhere to put us. So today I called the Robert Austin office (the number is 1-800-346-0100, if you're interested) to make sure that we'll have some space -- and got a good chewing out for calling too late to put an announcement of the InstallFest into their email ticket. I can't really blame them for doing that, one of us should have called last week. We'll have to work something out to make sure that somebody calls them about 10 days before we want to have an InstallFest. They did say they would go ahead and give us a four-booth island for this show. They'll be in the usual, larger exhibit hall at the Oakland Convention Center. By the way, Rick: This InstallFest is listed on the CABAL site, but not on BALE. Mike Higashi From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Mar 05 19:12:30 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18qlo6-00088U-00; Wed, 05 Mar 2003 19:12:30 -0800 Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 19:12:29 -0800 To: Cabalists Subject: Re: [conspire] Saturday's InstallFest Message-ID: <20030306031229.GV31023@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030306024506.GB23010@myrddin.imat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030306024506.GB23010@myrddin.imat.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 2515 Lines: 47 Quoting Mike Higashi (mhigashi@imat.com): > By the way, Rick: This InstallFest is listed on the CABAL site, but not > on BALE. Yes. Some while back, Deirdre was kind enough to do the bulk of the work required to convert BALE to PHP/MySQL -- for which I'm very thankful. That work did not include any systematic briefing of me about the schema and design, though I've gotten answers to a few questions and a bit of help. Eventually, after using the MySQL command-line query tool to make changes for a while and finding that... tedious..., I got OpenOffice.org set up on my laptop as a query tool for MySQL access via ODBC. I was going to sit down a couple of days ago, and try to figure out -- perhaps with Deirdre's help -- how to set up one-time, non-recurring events such as CABAL Installfests in the new setup. Last I remember hearing from Deirdre, the new design did not incorporate that design element, though I'd been very clear on its necessity. Of late, Deirdre has been too busy with important work of her own to take a hand in the problem. Two days ago, my laptop developed a variety of hardware trouble, and is currently at a service shop, allegedly being repaired. I do not have an ETA, for its return (if any). All I have so far is a $75 charge to my credit card for the first hour of work, which may of course be down the tubes if the machine is not repairable. I could, very likely, replicate the OpenOffice.org/ODBC setup on the spare desktop box on my kitchen table (running Knoppix installed to the hard drive). That would take opening up the MySQL security access via a command-line-tool revision to one of its system tables, again -- and, of course, another dollop of setup time. And then, presumably, I'd have to lavish another even bigger dollop of time on the problem of how to implement non-recurring events, since the database design reportedly didn't include that. Meanwhile, I'm crunched for time to do paying work -- with reduced computing facilities. You see my problem. Or, of course, I could just say "Fsck this", scrap the PHP and MySQL, and put the ugly old -- but well-maintained -- vi-edited static HTML back. But that would ignore the fact that the database-driven design _is_ in pretty nearly every way better. -- Cheers, Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based, Rick Moen not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed, rick@linuxmafia.com modern-American-English-usage-improvement association. From mhigashi@myrddin.imat.com Wed Mar 05 19:18:46 2003 Received: from adsl-207-214-84-142.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net ([207.214.84.142] helo=myrddin.imat.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18qluA-00089U-00 for ; Wed, 05 Mar 2003 19:18:46 -0800 Received: (from mhigashi@localhost) by myrddin.imat.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h263ChG23242 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 19:12:43 -0800 Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 19:12:43 -0800 From: Mike Higashi To: Cabalists Message-ID: <20030306031243.GB23167@myrddin.imat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i Subject: [conspire] Using Linux in non-profits Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 655 Lines: 17 A friend of mine is hosting a dinner this Saturday for folks who provide technical support for non-profits. One of the things he'll be talking about is how adapting Linux could reduce their costs and let them make better use of the old hardware that they're saddled with. I'm wondering if any of you have suggestions on what benefits Linux will provide, or how to minimize the cost of adaption. He's already planning on talking about: Saving money on software licenses. Turning old hardware (486s/Pentium 90s) into viable systems with LTSP. Using Knoppix as a desktop operating system. Is there anything else you can think of? Mike Higashi From deirdre@deirdre.net Wed Mar 05 19:51:56 2003 Received: from emperor ([198.144.195.190] helo=emperor.deirdre.org ident=root) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18qmQG-0008Mp-00 for ; Wed, 05 Mar 2003 19:51:56 -0800 Received: from deirdre.net (airport.deirdre.org [198.144.195.188]) by emperor.deirdre.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Debian-6) with ESMTP id h263ZD9U012242; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 19:35:14 -0800 Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 19:46:12 -0800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Cc: Ross Bernheim To: Cabalists From: Deirdre Saoirse Moen Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <2C6A62E8-4F86-11D7-B8D9-000393B986EE@deirdre.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) Subject: [conspire] Cabal Installfest Schedule update posted Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 499 Lines: 13 As Mike Higashi pointed out, we'd neglected to update the bale page to reflect the upcoming Oakland installfest. Anyone who wishes to attend the Cabal meeting afterward in Menlo Park (6 p.m. onwards) is implored to brainstorm about creative uses for excess lemons. Recipes would be appreciated! -- _Deirdre http://deirdre.net "Cannot run out of time. There is infinite time. You are finite. Zathras is finite. This....is wrong tool." -- Zathras From jose_sanchez79@yahoo.com Thu Mar 06 09:55:41 2003 Received: from web20107.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.226.44]) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18qzan-00062p-00 for ; Thu, 06 Mar 2003 09:55:41 -0800 Message-ID: <20030306174953.89160.qmail@web20107.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [12.7.80.110] by web20107.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 06 Mar 2003 09:49:53 PST Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 09:49:53 -0800 (PST) From: Jose Sanchez To: conspire@linuxmafia.com In-Reply-To: <20030306142720.17214.10216.Mailman@linuxmafia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [conspire] Re: Saturday's InstallFest Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 246 Lines: 11 So who will actually be at the installfest in Oakland on Saturday from Cabal's mailing list? :) Jose __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From jeremyb@whirljack.net Thu Mar 06 10:45:29 2003 Received: from whirljack.net ([63.204.216.244] helo=www.whirljack.net) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18r0Mz-0006Q2-00 for ; Thu, 06 Mar 2003 10:45:29 -0800 Received: from jeremyb by www.whirljack.net with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 18r0HR-0005m6-00 for ; Thu, 06 Mar 2003 10:39:45 -0800 Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 10:39:45 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: Saturday's InstallFest Message-ID: <20030306183945.GA22195@whirljack.net> References: <20030306142720.17214.10216.Mailman@linuxmafia.com> <20030306174953.89160.qmail@web20107.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030306174953.89160.qmail@web20107.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: Jeremy Brooks Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 541 Lines: 22 I'll be there. Is it easy to get there via BART? On Thu, Mar 06, 2003 at 09:49:53AM -0800, Jose Sanchez wrote: > So who will actually be at the installfest in Oakland > on Saturday from Cabal's mailing list? :) > > Jose > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more > http://taxes.yahoo.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > conspire mailing list > conspire@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Mar 06 12:12:31 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18r1jC-00075U-00; Thu, 06 Mar 2003 12:12:30 -0800 Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 12:12:30 -0800 To: Jeremy Brooks Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: Saturday's InstallFest Message-ID: <20030306201230.GE31023@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030306142720.17214.10216.Mailman@linuxmafia.com> <20030306174953.89160.qmail@web20107.mail.yahoo.com> <20030306183945.GA22195@whirljack.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030306183945.GA22195@whirljack.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-gazette-tag: Rick Moen From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1036 Lines: 26 Quoting Jeremy Brooks (jeremyb@whirljack.net): > I'll be there. > > Is it easy to get there via BART? About as easy as it gets. Get off at 12th Steet / Broadway station, Oakland. The Convention Center adjoins a hotel (Hyatt Regency?) on the north side of Broadway between 10th and 11th Streets. If you haven't already, you can get a coupon via e-mail for free admission to the Robert Austin Computer Show. Delivery in about an hour: http://www.robertaustin.com/showregistation.htm Please note that this is not CABAL charging money. We have no say in the matter. If you don't have a coupon in hand, _or_ show up at the Convention Center loading dock around 9:30 AM having made advance arrangements with me or Mike Higashi to be "Linux Installfest Staff" (which is what you tell the RobAusCo people), then RobAusCo will ding you for (currently) $8, to let you in. -- Cheers, "Linux means never having to delete your love mail." Rick Moen -- Don Marti rick@linuxmafia.com From amcgee@iceland.freeshell.org Thu Mar 06 16:45:05 2003 Received: from iceland.freeshell.org ([216.162.208.196] helo=sdf.lonestar.org ident=root) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18r5ys-0000fW-00 for ; Thu, 06 Mar 2003 16:44:59 -0800 Received: from iceland.freeshell.org (IDENT:amcgee@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.12.8/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h270ctDw005438; Fri, 7 Mar 2003 00:38:55 GMT Received: (from amcgee@localhost) by iceland.freeshell.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h270ctpn005437; Fri, 7 Mar 2003 00:38:55 GMT Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 00:38:55 +0000 (UTC) From: Art McGee X-X-Sender: amcgee@iceland.freeshell.org To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Using Linux in non-profits In-Reply-To: <20030306142720.17214.10216.Mailman@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1396 Lines: 46 > A friend of mine is hosting a dinner this Saturday for > folks who provide technical support for non-profits. One > of the things he'll be talking about is how adapting Linux > could reduce their costs and let them make better use of > the old hardware that they're saddled with. I assume your friend is familiar with and has told you about the international movement of non-profit technology consultants and techies known as Circuit Riders? We're having our national gathering this weekend at the Oakland Marriott, right around the corner from the computer show. See the following for more information: http://www.nten.org http://npogroups.org/lists/info/riders > I'm wondering if any of you have suggestions on what > benefits Linux will provide, or how to minimize the cost > of adaption. You should also be aware that during the Circuit Riders conference, an organization known as the Non-Profit Open Source Initiative will be conducting workshops and doing demonstrations via an Open Source Cyber Cafe. Many of the techies and system administrators involved in working with non-profits are strong advocates of Free and Open Source software, so the issues are not new. For more information, check out the following: http://www.nosi.net http://www.linuxfund.org http://www.ltsp.org Art McGee Principal Consultant Virtual Identity Communications+Media+Technology 1-510-967-9381 From mhigashi@myrddin.imat.com Thu Mar 06 19:52:54 2003 Received: from adsl-207-214-84-142.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net ([207.214.84.142] helo=myrddin.imat.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18r8ug-00024Y-00 for ; Thu, 06 Mar 2003 19:52:51 -0800 Received: (from mhigashi@localhost) by myrddin.imat.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h273kan30168 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 19:46:36 -0800 Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 19:46:36 -0800 From: Mike Higashi To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Using Linux in non-profits Message-ID: <20030307034636.GB30128@myrddin.imat.com> References: <20030306142720.17214.10216.Mailman@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 792 Lines: 19 On Fri, Mar 07, 2003 at 12:38:55AM +0000, Art McGee wrote: > > A friend of mine is hosting a dinner this Saturday for > > folks who provide technical support for non-profits. One > > of the things he'll be talking about is how adapting Linux > > could reduce their costs and let them make better use of > > the old hardware that they're saddled with. > > I assume your friend is familiar with and has told you > about the international movement of non-profit technology > consultants and techies known as Circuit Riders? We're > having our national gathering this weekend at the Oakland > Marriott, right around the corner from the computer show. Actually, he's going to be at that same conference. He also said he'll send people over to the computer show, and to our InstallFest. Mike From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Mar 18 17:00:24 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18vRwM-0000IS-00; Tue, 18 Mar 2003 17:00:22 -0800 Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 17:00:22 -0800 From: Rick Moen To: Scott Rieger Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20030319010022.GU29879@linuxmafia.com> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20030318160201.02846da8@mail.attbi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030318160201.02846da8@mail.attbi.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: [conspire] Re: Quick Question about Debian install. . . Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 4313 Lines: 97 Quoting Scott Rieger (digicamman@attbi.com): > Just wanted to know if you build a Debian package on one disk in > system "A" and them move that disk to system "B" will that mess up the > Debian database or only affect the hardware and CPU kernel info? I suspect you may mean "install" when you say "build", above. (Literally speaking, to build a Debian package is to compile it.) However, I'm left a _little_ uncertain what you're asking about. More about that, below. Ordinarily, you would install package on a second system the same way you would on the first system. That is, you would not try to copy or move _installed_ software from the first system to the second, but rather would install the same package names onto the second system in the same approximate manner you did the first one. > If I start to build the system I was telling you about, just wanted to know > if it could be potable to another system with better hardware? Reading _this_ question, I _think_ I understand what you're asking about. You're saying something like: "I'm planning to build a Debian system using my old PPro and antique Trident video card today. Later on, can I extract my hard drive from the P233, put it into a new Athlon-oriented system with ATI Radeon video, and expect everything to work?" The answer is "Yes, but...." I can think of four gotchas. 1. On i386 installs (as opposed to PowerPC, Alpha, SPARC, etc.), Debian defaults to installing prebuilt kernels that are completely generic and will work on any i386 or up including 386, 486, Pentium, Pentium MMX, Pentium Pro, PII, PIII, P4, K6, Athlon, Duron, etc. _However_, there are alternate prebuilt kernel images available from Debian mirrors that have better CPU optimisation. Let's say you installed one with P6 optimisation, to better work with your PPro. That kernel probably wouldn't boot on your Athlon. The fix would be to pull down from the Debian mirrors a K7/Athlon-optimised prebuilt kernel just before transplanting your hard drive (or put back the generic i386-optimised one). 2. XFree86 setup. X11 probably wouldn't work, at first. You'd probably have to re-run "dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xfree86" to set it up for the ATI Radeon. I could be wrong. 3. Boot-up. A valid LILO or GRUB setup for one motherboard may not work after transplanting the hard drive to a different motherboard, because of difference in the way they assign cylinder, head, and sector numbers to hard drives. Therefore, you might have to re-do LILO/GRUB from a maintenance floppy, after moving the hard drive. 4. Your /etc/modules and /etc/modules.conf files would probably be totally wrong, because they'd have references to hardware drivers that were needed only on your old system, and lack ones needed for your new one. Fixing this might be a bit of a pain. (Likewise, symlinks in /dev such as mouse, cdrom, and modem might need to be re-pointed.) To answer your question generally, Debian packages on i386 architecture don't otherwise install themselves in non-portable ways. But another way around the problem you mention would be to first do a minimal Debian install on the new hardware, and then make Debian's apt-get tool reinstall the same package _names_ as you had before, having written out to a file the installed-packages list while the old system was running, prior to shutting it down. Quoting my http://linuxmafia.com/debian/tips file: Writing out your current installed packages: # dpkg --get-selections >selections.txt And get their current versions (not strictly needed): # COLUMNS=150 dpkg -l > packages.txt To reconstruct the system, install the Debian Base System, then: # dpkg --set-selections To: lucy lee Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20030322090834.GC29879@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030309014840.GB31023@linuxmafia.com> <20030322081600.2793.qmail@web12702.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030322081600.2793.qmail@web12702.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: [conspire] Re: eth0 failed Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 2977 Lines: 62 Quoting lucy lee (lucy_zack2000@yahoo.com): > Thanks for your help, I have installed the redhat 8.0, and I applied > for a new Earthlink Linux account for dial-up.but I failed many times > to get connected. I think that I may choose the wrong selection at the > beginng of installing Linux, since when I boot up,everthing is OK, > except the following: bring up interface eth0 > > determing IP infromation eth0 ...failed no link present,check cable? > [failed] Hi, Lucy! (1) "No link present" means that no ethernet signal is arriving at the network port. Either the cable isn't fully plugged in at one end or the other, or the cable is defective, or it's the wrong type of cable, or the device at the other end of the cable is turned off / defective / not supplying ethernet signal for some reason. In other words, Linux is telling you it was able to enable the local ethernet interface (eth0), but was unable get a DHCP lease from the far end because it could not get a valid ethernet signal from the far end. But... wait a second.... "Dial-up?" OK, we have a fundamental problem, here: It sonds as if you're saying that you intend to use a _modem_ to communicate with Earthlink -- a modem that's either inside the Linux box (internal modem) or attached to it via a serial cable. Do you have such a modem inside the Linux box or attached to its serial port? Furthermore, do I correctly guess that nothing at all is connected to your Linux box's ethernet port? Do I correctly guess that you are not planning to use the ethernet port in the immediate future? If I guess correctly, then you should disable initialisation of /dev/eth0 (the ethernet port) for the future, and should set up PPP dial-up on your modem port. The Red Hat manuals explain how to do that, specifically the Red Hat Linux Customization Guide, available on-line at Red Hat's Web site: http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/linux/RHL-8.0-Manual/custom-guide/ch-network-config.html (2) I've taken the liberty of cc'ing my user group CABAL's mailing list, conspire@linuxmafia.com . You should join that mailing list (see: http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire), and please send further requests for help to that or similar Linux community public forums, rather than sending them to private e-mail. There are numerous reasons why that is a better approach, including the fact that, when you get help via public forums, other people benefit from both your question and any answers you receive. Also, you'll get answers from more than just one person. Finally, public discussion is vitally important to how the Linux community grows. (3) If you still have problems, please feel welcome to bring your machine to tomorrow's CABAL meeting, 4 PM at my house, 2033 Sharon Road, Menlo Park. See you there! -- Cheers, "Censeo Toto nos in Kansa esse decisse." Rick Moen -- D. Gale rick@linuxmafia.com From lucy_zack2000@yahoo.com Mon Mar 24 11:38:58 2003 Received: from web12707.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.173.244]) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18xXmc-0005CK-00 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2003 11:38:58 -0800 Message-ID: <20030324193153.81408.qmail@web12707.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [209.179.252.14] by web12707.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 24 Mar 2003 11:31:53 PST Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 11:31:53 -0800 (PST) From: lucy lee To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [conspire] Thanks to Rick Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 383 Lines: 14 Hi, Rick, Thank you very much ! I have connected to the earthlink by dial-up .Without your help, I couldn't do it.You are such a nice and knowledgeable person .I am very very appreciate it. best regards! Lucy & Zack __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com From mail-fiend@mouseandfrog.org Mon Mar 24 12:53:04 2003 Received: from smtp.everyone.net ([216.200.145.17] helo=rmta02.mta.everyone.net) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18xYwK-0005oq-00 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2003 12:53:04 -0800 Received: from SFSEANW2.mouseandfrog.org (unknown [205.132.172.230]) by rmta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 758EA7F5A for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2003 12:45:59 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.1.1.6.0.20030324124456.00a71a48@pop.everyone.net> X-Sender: mail-fiend@mouseandfrog.org@pop.everyone.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 12:45:57 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com From: Sean Wolfe-Justice Subject: Re: [conspire] Thanks to Rick In-Reply-To: <20030324193153.81408.qmail@web12707.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 297 Lines: 13 Another victim of the conspiracy. . . :o) At 11:31 AM 3/24/2003 -0800, you wrote: >Hi, Rick, >Thank you very much ! I have connected to the >earthlink by dial-up .Without your help, I couldn't >do it.You are such a nice and knowledgeable person .I >am very very appreciate it. >best regards! From jose_sanchez79@yahoo.com Tue Mar 25 09:07:03 2003 Received: from web20107.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.226.44]) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18xrt9-000627-00 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2003 09:07:03 -0800 Message-ID: <20030325165954.69685.qmail@web20107.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [12.7.80.110] by web20107.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 25 Mar 2003 08:59:54 PST Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 08:59:54 -0800 (PST) From: Jose Sanchez To: conspire@linuxmafia.com In-Reply-To: <20030325142720.18553.99016.Mailman@linuxmafia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [conspire] Re: Thanks to Rick Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 2240 Lines: 102 Another victim of the conspiracy. . . # start evil laugh buuahahaha --- conspire-request@linuxmafia.com wrote: > Send conspire mailing list submissions to > conspire@linuxmafia.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, > visit > > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire > or, via email, send a message with subject or body > 'help' to > conspire-request@linuxmafia.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it > is more specific > than "Re: Contents of conspire digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Thanks to Rick (lucy lee) > 2. Re: Thanks to Rick (Sean Wolfe-Justice) > > --__--__-- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 11:31:53 -0800 (PST) > From: lucy lee > To: conspire@linuxmafia.com > Subject: [conspire] Thanks to Rick > > Hi, Rick, > Thank you very much ! I have connected to the > earthlink by dial-up .Without your help, I couldn't > do it.You are such a nice and knowledgeable person > .I > am very very appreciate it. > best regards! > > Lucy & Zack > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, > live on your desktop! > http://platinum.yahoo.com > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 12:45:57 -0800 > To: conspire@linuxmafia.com > From: Sean Wolfe-Justice > > Subject: Re: [conspire] Thanks to Rick > > Another victim of the conspiracy. . . > > :o) > > At 11:31 AM 3/24/2003 -0800, you wrote: > >Hi, Rick, > >Thank you very much ! I have connected to the > >earthlink by dial-up .Without your help, I > couldn't > >do it.You are such a nice and knowledgeable person > .I > >am very very appreciate it. > >best regards! > > > > > --__--__-- > > _______________________________________________ > conspire mailing list > conspire@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire > > > End of conspire Digest __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com From mailjones@mouseandfrog.org Tue Mar 25 17:21:24 2003 Received: from smtp.everyone.net ([216.200.145.17] helo=rmta01.mta.everyone.net) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18xzbY-0001O0-00 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2003 17:21:24 -0800 Received: from SFSEANW2.mouseandfrog.org (unknown [205.132.172.216]) by rmta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFA79A3DF6 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2003 17:14:18 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.1.1.6.0.20030325170630.00a7c608@pop.everyone.net> X-Sender: mailjones@mouseandfrog.org@pop.everyone.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 17:14:18 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com From: Sean Wolfe-Justice Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [conspire] disk imaging programs Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1104 Lines: 28 Can anybody point me in the right direction: I have been wrestling with a couple Linux-originated disk cloning apps, PartImage and CloneIt. They both have procedures to create bootable images but I can't seem to make them work using rawrite. I've had difficulty downloading the files as well. Sometimes wget just stops after about 20k is downloaded. PartImage www.partimage.org disk images http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=6212&release_id=78032 CloneIt http://www.ferzkopp.net/Software/CloneIt/CloneIt.html This CloneIt looks pretty neat. So why do his disk image files not make a readable floppy? I sucessfully (I think) downloaded the files, gunziped them, and wrote them to floppy. I should admit that being a Linux newbie, much of this has been done under Windows. But rawrite is for Windows, and a raw floppy image is the same regardless, right? My Debian boot floppies come up just fine on my Windows machine. If anybody can recommend something else to try, or their favorite cloning tool, that would be great. Maybe I just need to go buy Ghost. TIA, -Sean. From nkj@namodn.com Tue Mar 25 17:38:53 2003 Received: from namodn.com ([63.150.15.11] helo=cliff.namodn.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18xzsT-0001a3-00 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2003 17:38:53 -0800 Received: from nkj by cliff.namodn.com with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 18xzqw-0004qQ-00; Tue, 25 Mar 2003 17:37:18 -0800 Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 17:37:18 -0800 From: Nick Jennings To: Sean Wolfe-Justice Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] disk imaging programs Message-ID: <20030326013718.GA18527@namodn.com> References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030325170630.00a7c608@pop.everyone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030325170630.00a7c608@pop.everyone.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i X-Info: http://www.iaminsane.com Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 2012 Lines: 53 Have you tried using 'dd'? Just make a boot floppy, like tomsrtbt and boot off it. Assuming you have the disk you'd like to create the image from and the disk you'd like to put the image on, in the same system, you can just use dd to write, sector by sector, the disk image. For instance if you have a working linux system on /dev/hda, and a blank hard drive of the same side as /dev/hdb, after booting off the floppy (so that none of the disks are in use) you can do a: dd if=/dev/hda of=/dev/hdb (if = input file/device) (of = ouput file/device) WARNING: you could wipe out everything if you do this wrong. - Nick On Tue, Mar 25, 2003 at 05:14:18PM -0800, Sean Wolfe-Justice wrote: > Can anybody point me in the right direction: > > I have been wrestling with a couple Linux-originated disk cloning apps, > PartImage and CloneIt. They both have procedures to create bootable images > but I can't seem to make them work using rawrite. > > I've had difficulty downloading the files as well. Sometimes wget just > stops after about 20k is downloaded. > > PartImage www.partimage.org disk images > http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=6212&release_id=78032 > CloneIt http://www.ferzkopp.net/Software/CloneIt/CloneIt.html > > This CloneIt looks pretty neat. So why do his disk image files not make a > readable floppy? I sucessfully (I think) downloaded the files, gunziped > them, and wrote them to floppy. > > I should admit that being a Linux newbie, much of this has been done under > Windows. But rawrite is for Windows, and a raw floppy image is the same > regardless, right? My Debian boot floppies come up just fine on my Windows > machine. > > If anybody can recommend something else to try, or their favorite cloning > tool, that would be great. Maybe I just need to go buy Ghost. > > TIA, -Sean. > > > _______________________________________________ > conspire mailing list > conspire@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire > From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Mar 25 18:16:05 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18y0SS-0001qx-00 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2003 18:16:04 -0800 Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 18:16:04 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] disk imaging programs Message-ID: <20030326021604.GA26169@linuxmafia.com> References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030325170630.00a7c608@pop.everyone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030325170630.00a7c608@pop.everyone.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 4658 Lines: 83 Quoting Sean Wolfe-Justice (mailjones@mouseandfrog.org): > I have been wrestling with a couple Linux-originated disk cloning apps, > PartImage and CloneIt. They both have procedures to create bootable images > but I can't seem to make them work using rawrite. > I've had difficulty downloading the files as well. Sometimes wget just > stops after about 20k is downloaded. > > PartImage www.partimage.org disk images > http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=6212&release_id=78032 > CloneIt http://www.ferzkopp.net/Software/CloneIt/CloneIt.html > > This CloneIt looks pretty neat. So why do his disk image files not make a > readable floppy? I sucessfully (I think) downloaded the files, gunziped > them, and wrote them to floppy. > > I should admit that being a Linux newbie, much of this has been done under > Windows. But rawrite is for Windows, and a raw floppy image is the same > regardless, right? My Debian boot floppies come up just fine on my Windows > machine. The following is a little scattershot, since it's (initially) unclear exactly where your problem is occurring. 1. Could be that you didn't download the entire floppy-image file. If this were a CD image, very likely you'd find a tiny imagename.md5 file listed for download right alongside the imagename.img (or imagename.raw, whatever) disk image. Floppies, however, are so small that such redundancy checks (stored md5sum values) usually aren't provided. If it'll help, I have a version of Partimage (and of the Partboot floppy images) at http://linuxmafia.com/pub/hardware/ , alternatively reachable at ftp://linuxmafia.com/pub/hardware/ . It's not current, but it's there if you need it. 2. Could be that you've encountered a run of bad floppies. This has become a very, very common problem. Make sure you listen carefully to the sound of the floppy drive, while it's writing out the disk. You can hear if the drive is having to repeatedly attempt to write a track. If you hear that, even if try number n allegedly succeeds, you may elect to throw out that floppy and try a different one. However, even disks that write out with no audible retries are sometimes, nonetheless, no good. 3. Could be that you need a different rawrite utility. I vaguely recall that rawrite was originally written for MS-DOS. There have been two ports tailored for Win32 systems. I carry both of them at http://linuxmafia.com/pub/ms-windows/ aka ftp://linuxmafia.com/pub/ms-windows/ . Quoting the directory's index file (catalogue): 363726 Oct 7 20:15 rawrite32.zip Martin Husemann's Win32 port of rawrite to all Win32 operating systems. Utility for writing of diskette-image files, e.g. to install Linux from floppies. C and C++ source code and Win32 binary under a free-usage licence. Compilation requires RSADSI's MD5 source code (added), zlib source code (added) and Microsoft Developer's Studio 6. From: http://www.duskware.com/rawrite32/ 248679 Oct 7 16:20 rawwritewin-0.6.zip John Newbigin's Win32 port of rawrite to WinNT, to compensate for problems getting past the Hardware Abstraction Layer, especially in NT-based versions of MS-Windows such as Windows2000 and Windows XP. Utility for writing of diskette-image files, e.g. to install Linux from floppies. Pascal and C++ source code and Win32 binary under the GNU GPL. Compilation seems to require Borland Delphi and Borland C++. From: http://uranus.it.swin.edu.au/~jn/linux/ rawwrite.htm -- Cheers, "That scruffy beard... those suspenders... that smug ex- Rick Moen pression.... You're one of those condescending Unix users!" rick@linuxmafia.com "Here's a nickel, kid. Get yourself a real computer." -- Dilbert From mailjones@mouseandfrog.org Tue Mar 25 18:52:05 2003 Received: from smtp.everyone.net ([216.200.145.17] helo=rmta02.mta.everyone.net) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18y11J-00023m-00 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2003 18:52:05 -0800 Received: from SFSEANW2.mouseandfrog.org (unknown [205.132.172.216]) by rmta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61DDA806F for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2003 18:44:55 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.1.1.6.0.20030325183250.00a84e28@pop.everyone.net> X-Sender: mailjones@mouseandfrog.org@pop.everyone.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 18:44:54 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com From: Sean Wolfe-Justice Subject: Re: [conspire] disk imaging programs In-Reply-To: <20030326021604.GA26169@linuxmafia.com> References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030325170630.00a7c608@pop.everyone.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20030325170630.00a7c608@pop.everyone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1471 Lines: 42 >1. Could be that you didn't download the entire floppy-image file. >If this were a CD image, very likely you'd find a tiny imagename.md5 >file listed for download right alongside the imagename.img (or >imagename.raw, whatever) disk image. Floppies, however, are so small >that such redundancy checks (stored md5sum values) usually aren't >provided. Yeah, I saw the .md5 files and CD stuff, I'm pretty sure I got the floppy files. >If it'll help, I have a version of Partimage (and of the Partboot floppy >images) at http://linuxmafia.com/pub/hardware/ , alternatively reachable >at ftp://linuxmafia.com/pub/hardware/ . It's not current, but it's >there if you need it. I'm gonna check it out. . . that sounds great. . . >2. Could be that you've encountered a run of bad floppies. This has >become a very, very common problem. That's a good point, they are old, I was wondering. . . maybe that's the case. >3. Could be that you need a different rawrite utility. yeah, I tried ntrawrite and rawrite2. . . The adventure continues, I'm trying g4u now. Excited to try that out, I put BulletproofFTP server on my Windows box, I'll try making the g4u bootfloppies and going that route, dumping and retrieving the images files via ftp off the bootfloppy. Pretty soon I'll be able to do the FTP server via Linux. . . So, the Conspire list has been very quiet lately. What's the deal? And was it just my PC, or was Slashdot down today? Rock on! -Sean. From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Mar 25 20:06:01 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18y2Aq-0002d7-00 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2003 20:06:00 -0800 Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 20:06:00 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] disk imaging programs Message-ID: <20030326040600.GC26169@linuxmafia.com> References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030325170630.00a7c608@pop.everyone.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20030325170630.00a7c608@pop.everyone.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20030325183250.00a84e28@pop.everyone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030325183250.00a84e28@pop.everyone.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 704 Lines: 18 Quoting Sean Wolfe-Justice (mailjones@mouseandfrog.org): > So, the Conspire list has been very quiet lately. What's the deal? Conspire's _generally_ pretty quiet. Nobody really publicises it, but it perks up by itself from time to time. > And was it just my PC, or was Slashdot down today? Could have been. It was up in the morning and mid-day. I was out during the afternoon, so I couldn't comment on that. -- Cheers, "The front line of defense against such sophisticated Rick Moen viruses is a continually evolving computer operating rick@linuxmafia.com system that attracts the efforts of eager software developers." -- Bill Gates From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Mar 25 23:02:10 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18y4vK-0003wv-00 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2003 23:02:10 -0800 Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 23:02:10 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] disk imaging programs Message-ID: <20030326070210.GE26169@linuxmafia.com> References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030325170630.00a7c608@pop.everyone.net> <20030326013718.GA18527@namodn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030326013718.GA18527@namodn.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1613 Lines: 36 Quoting Nick Jennings (nkj@iaminsane.com): > Have you tried using 'dd'? Just make a boot floppy, like tomsrtbt and > boot off it.... Sean, he's right: Using standalone Linux media is really often the easiest solution. E.g., if you have access to a CDR burner, you could use one of the (many) Linux maintenance CD images: http://www.lnx-bbc.org/ LNX-BBC "bootable business card" http://rescuecd.sourceforge.net/ Timo's Rescue CD http://www.knopper.net/knoppix/index-en.html Knoppix The last of these three (unlike the other two) isn't a mini-CD, but rather a full-sized one, and boots an extremely cutting-edge, full featured Linux desktop distribution that recognises your hardware automatically and runs a general-usage desktop system entirely from the CD. It's very cool: Because most of the contents are stored compressed, it actually gives you a couple of gigs of applications, configured and runnable. With any of the CD images booted and running, you can then (among other things) temporarily mount your Windows "C:" drive and write the floppy images to disks using good ol' reliable Linux "dd", like this. (I'll assume you've put a diskette image in C:\ .) (Boot one of the CDs.) mount -t vfat /dev/hda1 /mnt dd if=/mnt/partboot.raw of=/dev/fd0 #"if" is input file; "of" is output file -- Cheers, It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. Rick Moen It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, rick@ The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning, linuxmafia.com It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. From Jeff.Suttor@earthlink.net Tue Mar 25 23:51:37 2003 Received: from mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.48]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18y5hB-0004Fl-00 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2003 23:51:37 -0800 Received: from h-68-164-77-87.snvacaid.covad.net ([68.164.77.87] helo=[192.168.1.100]) by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18y5aJ-0000Tu-00 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Tue, 25 Mar 2003 23:44:31 -0800 Subject: Re: [conspire] disk imaging programs From: Jeff Suttor To: conspire@linuxmafia.com In-Reply-To: <20030326040600.GC26169@linuxmafia.com> References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030325170630.00a7c608@pop.everyone.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20030325170630.00a7c608@pop.everyone.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20030325183250.00a84e28@pop.everyone.net> <20030326040600.GC26169@linuxmafia.com> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1048664760.1320.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.1 (1.2.1-1) Date: 25 Mar 2003 23:46:00 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 145 Lines: 8 > > And was it just my PC, or was Slashdot down today? maybe they Slashdotted themselves? :) -- Jeff Suttor From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Mar 26 01:03:15 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18y6oU-0004ni-00 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2003 01:03:14 -0800 Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 01:03:14 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Thanks to Rick Message-ID: <20030326090314.GK26169@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030324193153.81408.qmail@web12707.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030324193153.81408.qmail@web12707.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 403 Lines: 14 Quoting lucy lee (lucy_zack2000@yahoo.com): > Thank you very much ! I have connected to the > earthlink by dial-up .Without your help, I couldn't > do it.You are such a nice and knowledgeable person .I > am very very appreciate it. You're most welcome, Lucy. I hope you're enjoying Red Hat 8.0. -- Cheers, Rick Moen This space for rant. rick@linuxmafia.com From mailjones@mouseandfrog.org Wed Mar 26 18:13:02 2003 Received: from smtp.everyone.net ([216.200.145.17] helo=rmta02.mta.everyone.net) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18yMt4-0004CF-00 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2003 18:13:02 -0800 Received: from SFSEANW2.mouseandfrog.org (unknown [205.132.172.166]) by rmta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2B757EC5 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2003 18:05:49 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.1.1.6.0.20030326112549.00a7b4a0@pop.everyone.net> X-Sender: mailjones@mouseandfrog.org@pop.everyone.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 18:05:48 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com From: Sean Wolfe-Justice Subject: Re: [conspire] disk imaging programs In-Reply-To: <20030326070210.GE26169@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030326013718.GA18527@namodn.com> <5.1.1.6.0.20030325170630.00a7c608@pop.everyone.net> <20030326013718.GA18527@namodn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 964 Lines: 23 So hey, I finally got g4u working. It boots from a NetBSD floppy and spits out a .gz image of your hard drive via FTP. Which is pretty darn cool. But here's the thing. After wrestling with it, now I'm getting wildly varying FTP transfer rates -- over my own LAN! I mean, the transfer rate goes from 800 KB/sec to 36 KB/sec in a few seconds -- I even went so far as to connect the two machines with a crossover cable to make sure my LAN wasn't bogging them down. When it comes to 18 GB hard drive images, even 800 KB/sec takes a while. Any idea why an FTP transfer over a quiet LAN connection would be so erratic? Maybe FTP just isn't the right approach when you're dealing with 10+ gigs of data over a LAN. BTW, Knoppix is freaking cool. I had played with it previously, and tried it again today. And what's this I hear about Morphix? I gotta check that out too. Just like Jack Nicholson said, "Where does he get such wonderful toys?" 8^) -Sean. From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Mar 26 19:01:35 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18yNe3-0004Tn-00 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2003 19:01:35 -0800 Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 19:01:35 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] disk imaging programs Message-ID: <20030327030135.GV1751@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030326013718.GA18527@namodn.com> <5.1.1.6.0.20030325170630.00a7c608@pop.everyone.net> <20030326013718.GA18527@namodn.com> <5.1.1.6.0.20030326112549.00a7b4a0@pop.everyone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030326112549.00a7b4a0@pop.everyone.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1423 Lines: 33 Quoting Sean Wolfe-Justice (mailjones@mouseandfrog.org): [g4u:] > But here's the thing. After wrestling with it, now I'm getting wildly > varying FTP transfer rates -- over my own LAN! I mean, the transfer > rate goes from 800 KB/sec to 36 KB/sec in a few seconds -- I even went > so far as to connect the two machines with a crossover cable to make > sure my LAN wasn't bogging them down. > > When it comes to 18 GB hard drive images, even 800 KB/sec takes a > while. Any idea why an FTP transfer over a quiet LAN connection would > be so erratic? Not any fault of yours, personally, but you haven't given us much to work with. Could be nameservice: Do you have matching forward and reverse DNS? Could be just some inefficiency in whatever code g4u uses for network transport. > BTW, Knoppix is freaking cool. I had played with it previously, and > tried it again today. And what's this I hear about Morphix? I gotta > check that out too. Just like Jack Nicholson said, "Where does he get > such wonderful toys?" 8^) Yes. Morphix is basically Knoppix rearranged to be more easily reconfigurable / rebuildable. -- Cheers, "Transported to a surreal landscape, a young girl kills the first Rick Moen woman she meets, and then teams up with three complete strangers rick@linuxmafia.com to kill again." -- Rick Polito's That TV Guy column, describing the movie _The Wizard of Oz_ From jose_sanchez79@yahoo.com Fri Mar 28 14:53:55 2003 Received: from web20101.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.226.38]) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18z2jT-0007Cm-00 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2003 14:53:55 -0800 Message-ID: <20030328224633.65716.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [12.7.80.110] by web20101.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 28 Mar 2003 14:46:33 PST Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 14:46:33 -0800 (PST) From: Jose Sanchez To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [conspire] Where to get Revol-OS... Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 511 Lines: 15 Hello all, I am having some friends from college coming over this weekend. They are interested in Open Source software and I want to show them the documentary Revolution-OS. Is there any place around the bay area that sells it. Its too late to order from thinkgeek.com, I preffer driving to a location and buying since today is Friday. TIA Jose __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com From nkj@namodn.com Fri Mar 28 15:11:00 2003 Received: from namodn.com ([63.150.15.11] helo=cliff.namodn.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18z2zx-0007OG-00 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2003 15:10:58 -0800 Received: from nkj by cliff.namodn.com with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 18z2yF-0000PY-00; Fri, 28 Mar 2003 15:09:11 -0800 Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 15:09:10 -0800 From: Nick Jennings To: Jose Sanchez Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Where to get Revol-OS... Message-ID: <20030328230910.GF32175@iaminsane.com> References: <20030328224633.65716.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030328224633.65716.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i X-Info: http://www.iaminsane.com Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 846 Lines: 25 Fry's usually has some copies... not sure about how up to date they are though. On Fri, Mar 28, 2003 at 02:46:33PM -0800, Jose Sanchez wrote: > Hello all, I am having some friends from college > coming over this weekend. They are interested in Open > Source software and I want to show them the > documentary Revolution-OS. Is there any place around > the bay area that sells it. Its too late to order from > thinkgeek.com, I preffer driving to a location and > buying since today is Friday. TIA > > Jose > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! > http://platinum.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > conspire mailing list > conspire@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire > From jose_sanchez79@yahoo.com Fri Mar 28 16:16:49 2003 Received: from web20105.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.226.42]) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18z41h-0007rT-00 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2003 16:16:49 -0800 Message-ID: <20030329000926.12143.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [12.7.80.110] by web20105.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 28 Mar 2003 16:09:26 PST Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 16:09:26 -0800 (PST) From: Jose Sanchez Subject: Re: [conspire] Where to get Revol-OS... To: conspire@linuxmafia.com In-Reply-To: <20030328230910.GF32175@iaminsane.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 850 Lines: 32 > > On Fri, Mar 28, 2003 at 02:46:33PM -0800, Jose > Sanchez wrote: > > Hello all, I am having some friends from college > > coming over this weekend. They are interested in > Open > > Source software and I want to show them the > > documentary Revolution-OS. Is there any place > around > > the bay area that sells it. Its too late to order > from > > thinkgeek.com, I preffer driving to a location and > > buying since today is Friday. TIA > > > > Jose --- Nick Jennings wrote: > Fry's usually has some copies... not sure about how > up to date they are > though. Just called FRY's in Palo Alto and the sales rep. did not see it on their system. aarg! Jose __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com From jeremyb@whirljack.net Sun Mar 30 17:42:39 2003 Received: from whirljack.net ([63.204.216.244] helo=www.whirljack.net) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18zoJq-000307-00 for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2003 17:42:38 -0800 Received: from jeremyb by www.whirljack.net with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 18zoCY-0002oP-00 for ; Sun, 30 Mar 2003 17:35:06 -0800 Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 17:35:06 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Where to get Revol-OS... Message-ID: <20030331013506.GA10774@whirljack.net> References: <20030328230910.GF32175@iaminsane.com> <20030329000926.12143.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030329000926.12143.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: Jeremy Brooks Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1207 Lines: 41 Too late for this option, but for future reference, netflix has it. On Fri, Mar 28, 2003 at 04:09:26PM -0800, Jose Sanchez wrote: > > > > > > On Fri, Mar 28, 2003 at 02:46:33PM -0800, Jose > > Sanchez wrote: > > > Hello all, I am having some friends from college > > > coming over this weekend. They are interested in > > Open > > > Source software and I want to show them the > > > documentary Revolution-OS. Is there any place > > around > > > the bay area that sells it. Its too late to order > > from > > > thinkgeek.com, I preffer driving to a location and > > > buying since today is Friday. TIA > > > > > > Jose > > --- Nick Jennings wrote: > > Fry's usually has some copies... not sure about how > > up to date they are > > though. > > Just called FRY's in Palo Alto and the sales rep. did > not see it on their system. aarg! > > Jose > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! > http://platinum.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > conspire mailing list > conspire@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Apr 02 19:18:58 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 190vFi-0002cu-00 for ; Wed, 02 Apr 2003 19:18:58 -0800 Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 19:18:58 -0800 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20030403031858.GL17011@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: [conspire] (forw) REVOLUTION OS DVD news Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 892 Lines: 31 ----- Forwarded message from "J.T.S. Moore" ----- Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 19:13:49 -0800 From: "J.T.S. Moore" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 (Macintosh; U; PPC) To: Rick Moen Subject: REVOLUTION OS DVD news Rick, Thank you again for posting the info about the REVOLUTION OS theatrical run in San Jose last August. I don't know if you have already heard, but after much delay, the 2-disc special edition DVD of REVOLUTION OS is now available through: http://www.revolution-os.com/store1.html The REVOLUTION OS DVD is Region Free and CSS-Encryption Free. REVOLUTION OS is also available on VHS videotape(NTSC). If you don't mind, I would really appreciate it if you could post this announcement to the LinuxMafia mailing list. Best Wishes, J.T.S. Moore Director, REVOLUTION OS ----- End forwarded message ----- From mailjones@mouseandfrog.org Thu Apr 03 16:31:56 2003 Received: from smtp.everyone.net ([216.200.145.17] helo=rmta02.mta.everyone.net) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 191F7b-0003qb-00 for ; Thu, 03 Apr 2003 16:31:56 -0800 Received: from SFSEANW2.mouseandfrog.org (unknown [205.132.172.93]) by rmta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD19D8383 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2003 16:24:04 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.1.1.6.0.20030403162056.00a8e708@pop.everyone.net> X-Sender: mailjones@mouseandfrog.org@pop.everyone.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 16:23:52 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com From: Sean Wolfe-Justice Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [conspire] RealAudio for Linux Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 454 Lines: 12 Ladies and Gentlemen, once again it's a pleasure to email at you. I have been snooping around on real.com's Unix forum. Does anybody have much experience making Realaudio work with Linux? Any pointers? I plan on installing it on my Debian box. (Once I *have* a Debian box 8^). Also, I saw references to the Linux 2.2 and 2.4 kernels. Is there any reason why I wouldn't want to run the 2.4 kernel? Is that the latest kernel? Thanks loads, -Sean. From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Apr 03 21:23:33 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 191Jfp-00060F-00 for ; Thu, 03 Apr 2003 21:23:33 -0800 Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 21:23:33 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] RealAudio for Linux Message-ID: <20030404052333.GK17011@linuxmafia.com> References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030403162056.00a8e708@pop.everyone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030403162056.00a8e708@pop.everyone.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 3932 Lines: 95 Quoting Sean Wolfe-Justice (mailjones@mouseandfrog.org): > Ladies and Gentlemen, once again it's a pleasure to email at you. The pleasure is ours. > I have been snooping around on real.com's Unix forum. Does anybody > have much experience making Realaudio work with Linux? Any pointers? I > plan on installing it on my Debian box. (Once I *have* a Debian box > 8^). There used to be an official Debian package for RealPlayer, that automated the process of pulling down the (very restricted, not legal for anyone else to distribute) RealPlayer tarball and install it. That seems to have been removed some time in the last year or so. So, the fallback is to do it manually. I'll assume you're on i386 (i.e., x86), as opposed to any of the other ten CPU architectures that Debian supports. Go to: http://huxley.real.com/real/player/unix/unix.html?src=rpbform Select "Linux 2.x (libc6 i386)". (There's also an RPM.) Gets you a copy of rp8_linux20_libc6_i386_cs2.bin. Download it into /tmp or wherever. $ su - # cd /tmp # chmod u+x rp8_linux20_libc6_i386_cs2.bin # ./rp8_linux20_libc6_i386_cs2.bin By default, that installer program installs the RealPlayer binary to: /usr/local/RealPlayer8/realplay ...and adds the necessary plug-in and MIME type support to your copy of Mozilla, if any. You will probably find it useful to create a symlink in /usr/local/bin pointing to the realplay binary. (I can't remember whether that works, but it probably does.) Download and install http://docs.real.com/docs/playerpatch/unix/rv9_libc6_i386_cs2.tgz to update the RealPlayer8 codecs to v. 9 levels, pretty much the same way as above. I haven't paid a lot of attention to the RealPlayer stuff because of the rather evil nature of much of that company's past deeds, including past incidents of including spyware. > Also, I saw references to the Linux 2.2 and 2.4 kernels. Is there any > reason why I wouldn't want to run the 2.4 kernel? On x86, I can't think offhand of any compelling reason to stay with 2.2.x kernels. If you're running the plain-vanilla Official Debian installer from CD media, at the boot prompt you can hit F3 to see alternative "boot flavours". One such is bf2.4, the boot flavour that starts you out right away on some 2.4.x kernel, instead of that installer's default 2.2.x installation kernel. (This can actually be vital for successful initial installation onto some exotic hardware.) Once you're completely done with the installer and have a running system, you can very easily pull down your choice of preconfigured binary kernel image, tweaked for your situation, e.g. # apt-get install kernel-image-2.4.20-686-smp Of course, you don't _have_ to install Debian using the plain-vanilla Debian installer. On x86, there are a number of "friendlier" installers that can be likewise used to create Debian systems, e.g., o Knoppix o Libranet o PGI CD image for Debian "woody" o Xandros Desktop OS o Morphix I really think that Knoppix is a terrific way to get a Debian system going on x86. So is Libranet -- though it's a retail boxed set and will cost you $50 or so (something like that). On the plus side, it gives you built-in installers for RealPlayer and the Flash plug-in. > Is that the latest kernel? The way it's supposed to be, "even" numbered kernels such as the 2.4 series are the stable series, while "odd" kernels such as the 2.5 series are the development (beta) ones. There's _supposed_ to be just one of each series. That fairly simple model has been muddlied somewhat by the fact that both the 2.2.x and _2.0.x_ series keep being maintained, and new releases keep coming out in both. Eventually, the 2.5 betas will be declared "done", and one of those will get renumbered 2.6.0, the new "stable" kernel. Optimists might even believe that. ;-> -- Cheers, Chaos, panic, & disorder - my work here is done. Rick Moen rick@linuxmafia.com From mailjones@mouseandfrog.org Fri Apr 04 10:00:50 2003 Received: from smtp.everyone.net ([216.200.145.17] helo=rmta02.mta.everyone.net) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 191VUa-00039P-00 for ; Fri, 04 Apr 2003 10:00:45 -0800 Received: from SFSEANW2.mouseandfrog.org (unknown [205.132.172.230]) by rmta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F6F781B2 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 2003 09:52:43 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.1.1.6.0.20030404095015.00aaf488@pop.everyone.net> X-Sender: mailjones@mouseandfrog.org@pop.everyone.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 09:52:41 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com From: Sean Wolfe-Justice Subject: Re: [conspire] RealAudio for Linux In-Reply-To: <20030404052333.GK17011@linuxmafia.com> References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030403162056.00a8e708@pop.everyone.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20030403162056.00a8e708@pop.everyone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 493 Lines: 14 >I haven't paid a lot of attention to the RealPlayer stuff because of the >rather evil nature of much of that company's past deeds, including past >incidents of including spyware. Hmmm. I'd heard similar. Are there any alternatives to RA for streaming audio? It's one of my favorite things on the Internet. But everybody seems to do just realaudio. I've seen some Windows Media Player options out there. . . I love to listen to all the stuff I miss. Public Radio and such. Thanks. . . From rick@linuxmafia.com Fri Apr 04 14:44:14 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 191Zuw-0005Cq-00 for ; Fri, 04 Apr 2003 14:44:14 -0800 Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 14:44:14 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] RealAudio for Linux Message-ID: <20030404224413.GD30227@linuxmafia.com> References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030403162056.00a8e708@pop.everyone.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20030403162056.00a8e708@pop.everyone.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20030404095015.00aaf488@pop.everyone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030404095015.00aaf488@pop.everyone.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 4375 Lines: 81 Quoting Sean Wolfe-Justice (mailjones@mouseandfrog.org): > Hmmm. I'd heard similar. Are there any alternatives to RA for streaming > audio? It's one of my favorite things on the Internet. But everybody seems > to do just realaudio. When you need RealPlayer, you need RealPlayer. This is partly through the good offices of Real Networks's legal department, which has done its level best to sue into oblivion anyone who's done the relatively easy task of reverse-engineering their protocols (which are a slight modification of open-documented ones) for compatibility with other software. It's still possible to find samizdat versions of third-party software that can read or convert RealAudio / RealVideo, but it's not easy to find, on account of the legal threats. (Even modifications to system sound drivers to allow capture of sound output to disk are considered legally risky, and available only very quietly.) The topic of audio-video on *ix has been massively muddled not just by legal follies, but also by people talking about it without any understanding of what the pieces are and what they do. People talk about filename extensions and client applications as if they uniquely specified a codec, a data-storage format, a streaming protocol, or all of the above. More often, they have no clue that such concepts exist, and just say "It's QuickTime" or "It's a RealVideo stream". This is sort of like saying "What do you _mean_, what type of road was it? It was a Chevy road!" Anyhow, your question "Are there any alternatives to RA for streaming audio?" can't be answered as posed, because it's unclear which question you're asking about solving. You could be saying: "Suppose I wanted to serve up streaming audio. What software is available that will do this on Linux, and what does it do?" You can use Icecast, http://www.icecast.org/ . You can use Darwin Streaming Server to server streaming MP3s over http or RTP/RTSP, http://developer.apple.com/darwin/projects/streaming/. You can use Real Networks's server software for quite a variety of things (but it's expensive). You can use MPEG4IP to stream MP3, http://mpeg4ip.sourceforge.net/ . You can use FFmpeg, http://sourceforge.net/projects/ffmpeg or FFQuickTime, http://sourceforge.net/projects/ffquicktime/. There are probably lots of others; I'm not an expert at this. Or you could be saying: What do I install on Linux as client software to be able to listed to common audio streams over common streaming protocols compressed using common codecs. You have part of the answer in the form of RealPlayer. There are lots of others, starting with XMMS, the proprietary mpg123 utility (with various graphical front-ends to it such as Apollo), open-source imitators such as mpg321, etc. If your question is "What do I need on Linux to listen to public audio streaming source Foo?", then it obviously depends on what (and how) Foo is streaming. Most of the "appeal" of both Real Networks's streaming framework and Microsoft's imitation is that both companies aggressively sue people creating interoperable software. (A Microsoft legal threat shut down one open-source Linux project that had developed working support for Microsoft video streaming, but a couple of others persist.) Why? Because then they can sell their software solutions to the MPAA and RIAA as a "safe" way to offer copyright-covered creations without the risk that the user might capture it to disk and use it in ways not authorised by the copyright holders. Have you noticed that "free" movie trailers and songs tend to be offered for streaming for a limited time and then no longer available? "You want to replay that trailer you looked at last year? Too bad. You had it on your hard drive only for buffering purposes as it streamed in, and although theoretically you might have been able to save it from the cache for viewing later, we'll never tell you how." That having been said, Linux solutions -- and even some involving part or all open-source code -- have been created for almost all such works. But that's against determined opposition from the industry. -- Cheers, "There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a Rick Moen little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider rick@linuxmafia.com price only are this man's lawful prey." - J. Ruskin (attr.) From rick@linuxmafia.com Fri Apr 04 15:13:14 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 191aMW-0005Sx-00 for ; Fri, 04 Apr 2003 15:12:44 -0800 Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 15:12:24 -0800 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] RealAudio for Linux Message-ID: <20030404231224.GE30227@linuxmafia.com> References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030403162056.00a8e708@pop.everyone.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20030403162056.00a8e708@pop.everyone.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20030404095015.00aaf488@pop.everyone.net> <20030404224413.GD30227@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030404224413.GD30227@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 772 Lines: 19 Just an afterthought: I also have some information on file about handling Windows Media Audio (MIME type "audio/x-ms-wma"), here: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/audio-wma Windows Media Audio has gone through two versions, the original WMA and the later WMA9 formats. Both can be handled by MPlayer on Linux: http://www.mplayerhq.hu/DOCS/codecs-status.html The file at my site has other options. (I actually haven't had practically any knowledge of these matters until very recently, so I'm still trying to digest and test what I think I know. Don't trust what I say just on my say-so, please!) -- Cheers, "Linux means never having to delete your love mail." Rick Moen -- Don Marti rick@linuxmafia.com From bill@billsaysthis.com Fri Apr 04 14:50:11 2003 Received: from self.phpwebhosting.com ([64.65.61.215]) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 191a0g-0005E2-00 for ; Fri, 04 Apr 2003 14:50:11 -0800 Received: (qmail 5563 invoked by uid 508); 4 Apr 2003 22:41:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bill) (12.234.117.82) by self.phpwebhosting.com with SMTP; 4 Apr 2003 22:41:47 -0000 Message-ID: <041601c2fafb$5b84f290$6401a8c0@bill> From: "Bill Lazar" To: References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030403162056.00a8e708@pop.everyone.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20030403162056.00a8e708@pop.everyone.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20030404095015.00aaf488@pop.everyone.net> <20030404224413.GD30227@linuxmafia.com> Subject: Re: [conspire] RealAudio for Linux Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 14:41:39 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 613 Lines: 13 > The topic of audio-video on *ix has been massively muddled not just by > legal follies, but also by people talking about it without any > understanding of what the pieces are and what they do. People talk > about filename extensions and client applications as if they uniquely > specified a codec, a data-storage format, a streaming protocol, or all > of the above. More often, they have no clue that such concepts exist, > and just say "It's QuickTime" or "It's a RealVideo stream". This is > sort of like saying "What do you _mean_, what type of road was it? It > was a Chevy road!" You tell'em, Rick! From jose_sanchez79@yahoo.com Thu Apr 17 22:10:06 2003 Received: from web20104.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.226.41]) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 196O8U-0003lY-00 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 22:10:06 -0700 Message-ID: <20030418050916.33492.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [198.144.198.191] by web20104.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 22:09:16 PDT Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 22:09:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Jose Sanchez To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [conspire] linuxworld not running linux? Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 625 Lines: 21 Hello all. Just a FYI. I got an email from linuxworldexpo.com telling me I can register for LinuxWorld. So I was thinking to my self "Humm... I wonder what distro linuxworldexpo.com is running on?". Well I went to netcraft.com and did a search on www.linuxworldexpo.com, and shocking but true linuxworldexpo.com is running on MS IIS 5.0 Check it out: http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph/?mode_u=on&mode_w=on&site=www.linuxworldexpo.com&submit=Examine Practice what you preach? Jose __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Fri Apr 18 02:10:34 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 196RtC-0005Ei-00 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 02:10:34 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 02:10:34 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] linuxworld not running linux? Message-ID: <20030418091033.GH17850@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030418050916.33492.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030418050916.33492.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1671 Lines: 33 Quoting Jose Sanchez (jose_sanchez79@yahoo.com): > Hello all. Just a FYI. I got an email from linuxworldexpo.com telling > me I can register for LinuxWorld. So I was thinking to my self > "Humm... I wonder what distro linuxworldexpo.com is running on?". > Well I went to netcraft.com and did a search on > www.linuxworldexpo.com, and shocking but true linuxworldexpo.com is > running on MS IIS 5.0 International Data Group (IDG) of Framingham, MA -- owner of the franchise -- is a pretty generic publications and conventions outfit, and those of us who organised the LINC expo (which eventually sort-of merged into the _first_ LinuxWorld Conference and Expo, the only reason it didn't suck) learned close-up that they basically have no clue. All you have to do is look at the featured speakers they've had for every LWCE _since_ the very first one (which was different because it ran LINC's speaker and panel lineup), and you'll see what I mean: You look down the list, and immediately think "What could this generic corporate flunkie _possibly_ have to say that's of interest concerning Linux?" And, indeed, they _didn't_ have anything relevant to say. But IDG buttonholed them for the task because that's all they know. Basically, they don't know squat about computing: They're just (mostly) in the business of selling fashionable IT advice to business people -- and really don't give a damn about what's in it. -- Cheers, "There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a Rick Moen little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider rick@linuxmafia.com price only are this man's lawful prey." - J. Ruskin (attr.) From nkj@namodn.com Fri Apr 18 13:52:40 2003 Received: from namodn.com ([63.150.15.11] helo=cliff.namodn.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 196cqW-00015b-00; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 13:52:32 -0700 Received: from nkj by cliff.namodn.com with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 196cvE-0006op-00; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 13:57:24 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 13:57:23 -0700 From: Nick Jennings To: Rick Moen Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] linuxworld not running linux? Message-ID: <20030418205723.GA8941@iaminsane.com> References: <20030418050916.33492.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> <20030418091033.GH17850@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030418091033.GH17850@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i X-Info: http://www.iaminsane.com Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 434 Lines: 10 On Fri, Apr 18, 2003 at 02:10:34AM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: > And, indeed, they _didn't_ have anything relevant to say. But IDG > buttonholed them for the task because that's all they know. Basically, > they don't know squat about computing: They're just (mostly) in the > business of selling fashionable IT advice to business people -- and > really don't give a damn about what's in it. I think mass assassination is in order. From bill@billsaysthis.com Fri Apr 18 14:04:05 2003 Received: from self.phpwebhosting.com ([64.65.61.215]) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 196d1h-0001EA-00 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 14:04:05 -0700 Received: (qmail 21493 invoked by uid 508); 18 Apr 2003 21:03:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bill) (12.234.117.82) by self.phpwebhosting.com with SMTP; 18 Apr 2003 21:03:06 -0000 From: "Bill Lazar" To: Subject: RE: [conspire] linuxworld not running linux? Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 14:02:57 -0700 Message-ID: <00ab01c305ed$e395a8d0$6401a8c0@bill> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: <20030418205723.GA8941@iaminsane.com> Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 998 Lines: 32 Seems just a tad excessive to me, sorry. This may be a CABAL but dude, let's be reasonable. > -----Original Message----- > From: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com > [mailto:conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com] On Behalf Of Nick Jennings > Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 1:57 PM > To: Rick Moen > Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com > Subject: Re: [conspire] linuxworld not running linux? > > > On Fri, Apr 18, 2003 at 02:10:34AM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: > > And, indeed, they _didn't_ have anything relevant to say. But IDG > > buttonholed them for the task because that's all they know. > Basically, > > they don't know squat about computing: They're just (mostly) in the > > business of selling fashionable IT advice to business people -- and > > really don't give a damn about what's in it. > > I think mass assassination is in order. > > > _______________________________________________ > conspire mailing list > conspire@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire > From nkj@namodn.com Sat Apr 19 14:01:51 2003 Received: from namodn.com ([63.150.15.11] helo=cliff.namodn.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 196zT5-0001q7-00 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 14:01:51 -0700 Received: from nkj by cliff.namodn.com with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 196zXj-00072D-00; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 14:06:39 -0700 Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 14:06:38 -0700 From: Nick Jennings To: Bill Lazar Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] linuxworld not running linux? Message-ID: <20030419210638.GA26187@iaminsane.com> References: <20030418205723.GA8941@iaminsane.com> <00ab01c305ed$e395a8d0$6401a8c0@bill> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <00ab01c305ed$e395a8d0$6401a8c0@bill> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i X-Info: http://www.iaminsane.com Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 229 Lines: 8 On Fri, Apr 18, 2003 at 02:02:57PM -0700, Bill Lazar wrote: > Seems just a tad excessive to me, sorry. This may be a CABAL but dude, > let's be reasonable. *sigh* OK, OK, fine. - Nick From jose_sanchez79@yahoo.com Sat Apr 19 22:39:03 2003 Received: from web20108.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.226.45]) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1977Xb-00057B-00 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 22:39:03 -0700 Message-ID: <20030420053804.40245.qmail@web20108.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [198.144.198.191] by web20108.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 22:38:04 PDT Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 22:38:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Jose Sanchez To: conspire@linuxmafia.com In-Reply-To: <20030419132635.28510.39411.Mailman@linuxmafia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [conspire] Re: linuxworld not running linux? Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1803 Lines: 61 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com > > [mailto:conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com] On Behalf > Of Nick Jennings > > Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 1:57 PM > > To: Rick Moen > > Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com > > Subject: Re: [conspire] linuxworld not running > linux? > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 18, 2003 at 02:10:34AM -0700, Rick > Moen wrote: > > > And, indeed, they _didn't_ have anything > relevant to say. But IDG > > > buttonholed them for the task because that's all > they know. > > Basically, > > > they don't know squat about computing: They're > just (mostly) in the > > > business of selling fashionable IT advice to > business people -- and > > > really don't give a damn about what's in it. > > > > I think mass assassination is in order. Great now you got the FBI, CIA, and NSA sniffing our packets :) > From: "Bill Lazar" > To: > Subject: RE: [conspire] linuxworld not running > linux? > Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 14:02:57 -0700 > > Seems just a tad excessive to me, sorry. This may be > a CABAL but dude, > let's be reasonable. The main reason I posted this in the first place, was to show how people want to sell a product that they don't even use. Me as a customer, the first thing that comes to my mind is "How can I learn something from a institution, company, etc. that can't even put into use their product?". This reminds me of my friend who works for SBC; how he tells his customers "You won't go wrong with DSL it is fast and reliable, at home I use it all the time, but when he gets home, all you here is his modem dialing out to AOL", sheesh. :) Jose __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From star@starshine.org Fri Apr 25 16:01:38 2003 Received: from antares.starshine.org ([216.240.40.177] helo=antares.in.starshine.org ident=postfix) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 199CCC-0008FC-00 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 16:01:35 -0700 Received: from gemini.starshine.org (gemini.starshine.org [216.240.40.169]) by antares.in.starshine.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFF6E3B74; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:59:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gemini.starshine.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id C64521451E; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:18:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:18:16 -0700 To: Bill Lazar Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] linuxworld not running linux? Message-ID: <20030425161816.GC23563@starshine.org> References: <20030418205723.GA8941@iaminsane.com> <00ab01c305ed$e395a8d0$6401a8c0@bill> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <00ab01c305ed$e395a8d0$6401a8c0@bill> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: star@starshine.org (Heather Stern) Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 751 Lines: 19 > > > they don't know squat about computing: They're just (mostly) in the > > > business of selling fashionable IT advice to business people -- and > > > really don't give a damn about what's in it. > > I think mass assassination is in order. > Seems just a tad excessive to me, sorry. This may be a CABAL but dude, > let's be reasonable. You're right, I should finish my little "assimilation defense kit" and hand it out at the show. (whether you're defending assimilation, or against being assimilated, is between you and your Borg.) . | . Heather Stern | star@starshine.org --->*<--- Starshine Technical Services - * - consulting@starshine.org ' | ` Sysadmin Support and Training | (800) 938-4078 From bill@billsaysthis.com Fri Apr 25 16:05:26 2003 Received: from self.phpwebhosting.com ([64.65.61.215]) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 199CFx-0008Kv-00 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 16:05:25 -0700 Received: (qmail 31019 invoked by uid 508); 25 Apr 2003 23:03:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bill) (12.234.117.82) by self.phpwebhosting.com with SMTP; 25 Apr 2003 23:03:28 -0000 From: "Bill Lazar" To: Subject: RE: [conspire] linuxworld not running linux? Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 16:03:24 -0700 Message-ID: <008001c30b7e$e02a28b0$6401a8c0@bill> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <20030425161816.GC23563@starshine.org> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 290 Lines: 11 > You're right, I should finish my little "assimilation defense kit" and > hand it out at the show. > > (whether you're defending assimilation, or against being > assimilated, is between you and your Borg.) Please post a note when the kit is ready for beta and the CVS access info. From mhigashi@myrddin.imat.com Fri Apr 25 17:11:13 2003 Received: from adsl-207-214-84-142.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net ([207.214.84.142] helo=myrddin.imat.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 199DHd-0000Oy-00 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 17:11:13 -0700 Received: (from mhigashi@localhost) by myrddin.imat.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h3Q095f11001 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 17:09:05 -0700 Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 17:09:05 -0700 From: Mike Higashi To: Cabalists Message-ID: <20030426000905.GA10949@myrddin.imat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i Subject: [conspire] Yes Virginia, there is an InstallFest Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 811 Lines: 18 Attention all Festies (Festers? Festians?), the next CABAL InstallFest is tomorrow, Saturday April 26th, at the Robert Austin Computer Show being held at the Cow Palace in Daly City. As for the next InstallFest after this one, in May both Rick and I have other commitments on the 2nd and 4th Saturday -- a staff meeting for BayCon, a regional science-fiction convention, on the 10th, and then the convention itself from May 23rd through the 26th. That pushes the next InstallFest out into June. The DNS service for the robertaustin.com domain appears to be down right now, so their Web site is unreachable at the moment. However, pulling their schedule out of Google's cache shows that in June the only show that's on a CABAL meeting day is on June 28th, at the Oakland Convention Center. Mike Higashi From bill@billsaysthis.com Tue Apr 29 17:11:10 2003 Received: from self.phpwebhosting.com ([64.65.61.215]) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19AfBk-0008K3-00 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 2003 17:11:09 -0700 Received: (qmail 20823 invoked by uid 508); 30 Apr 2003 00:08:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bill) (12.234.117.82) by self.phpwebhosting.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 2003 00:08:52 -0000 From: "Bill Lazar" To: Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 17:08:47 -0700 Message-ID: <013d01c30eac$abd7b470$6401a8c0@bill> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20030404224413.GD30227@linuxmafia.com> Subject: [conspire] Debian/BSD Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 168 Lines: 8 Has anyone installed this version yet? http://bsd.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/04/29/1343234&mode=thread Slashdot discussion, seems like an intriguing option... From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Apr 29 17:58:07 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19AfvC-0000D8-00 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 2003 17:58:06 -0700 Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 17:58:06 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Debian/BSD Message-ID: <20030430005806.GK21802@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030404224413.GD30227@linuxmafia.com> <013d01c30eac$abd7b470$6401a8c0@bill> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <013d01c30eac$abd7b470$6401a8c0@bill> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 348 Lines: 12 Quoting Bill Lazar (bill@billsaysthis.com): > Has anyone installed this version yet? > http://bsd.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/04/29/1343234&mode=thread > Slashdot discussion, seems like an intriguing option... If you have a SPARC box you'd like to lend me, I'd be glad to try it. Other options: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/sparc From bill@billsaysthis.com Tue Apr 29 20:47:03 2003 Received: from self.phpwebhosting.com ([64.65.61.215]) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19AiYh-0001WS-00 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 2003 20:47:03 -0700 Received: (qmail 11946 invoked by uid 508); 30 Apr 2003 03:44:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bill) (12.234.117.82) by self.phpwebhosting.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 2003 03:44:47 -0000 From: "Bill Lazar" To: Subject: RE: [conspire] Debian/BSD Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 20:44:40 -0700 Message-ID: <014701c30eca$d4cb45e0$6401a8c0@bill> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20030430005806.GK21802@linuxmafia.com> Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 855 Lines: 31 The /. discussion mentions an Intel port of Debian/BSD too, wise guy. > -----Original Message----- > From: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com > [mailto:conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com] On Behalf Of Rick Moen > Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 5:58 PM > To: conspire@linuxmafia.com > Subject: Re: [conspire] Debian/BSD > > > Quoting Bill Lazar (bill@billsaysthis.com): > > > Has anyone installed this version yet? > > http://bsd.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/04/29/1343234&mode=thread > > Slashdot discussion, seems like an intriguing option... > > If you have a SPARC box you'd like to lend me, I'd be glad to try it. > > Other options: > http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/sparc > > > _______________________________________________ > conspire mailing list > conspire@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire > > From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Apr 30 02:50:07 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19AoE3-0004IS-00 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 02:50:07 -0700 Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 02:50:07 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Debian/BSD Message-ID: <20030430095007.GM21802@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030430005806.GK21802@linuxmafia.com> <014701c30eca$d4cb45e0$6401a8c0@bill> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <014701c30eca$d4cb45e0$6401a8c0@bill> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 508 Lines: 13 Quoting Bill Lazar (bill@billsaysthis.com): > The /. discussion mentions an Intel port of Debian/BSD too, wise guy. Far be it from me to denigrate anyone's kernel religion, but the advantage of running Debian userspace on a NetBSD kernel, if one is _not_ on one of Linux's less-well-supported CPU architectures, eludes me. -- Cheers, I've been suffering death by PowerPoint, recently. Rick Moen -- Huw Davies rick@linuxmafia.com From star@starshine.org Wed Apr 30 11:49:04 2003 Received: from antares.starshine.org ([216.240.40.177] helo=antares.in.starshine.org ident=postfix) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19Awdb-0000C0-00; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 11:49:03 -0700 Received: from gemini.starshine.org (gemini.starshine.org [216.240.40.169]) by antares.in.starshine.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B1553A56; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 11:47:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gemini.starshine.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 8E9A8140C7; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 11:37:11 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 11:37:11 -0700 To: Rick Moen Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Debian/BSD Message-ID: <20030430183711.GA546@starshine.org> References: <20030430005806.GK21802@linuxmafia.com> <014701c30eca$d4cb45e0$6401a8c0@bill> <20030430095007.GM21802@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030430095007.GM21802@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: star@starshine.org (Heather Stern) Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 706 Lines: 16 On Wed, Apr 30, 2003 at 02:50:07AM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Bill Lazar (bill@billsaysthis.com): > > > The /. discussion mentions an Intel port of Debian/BSD too, wise guy. > > Far be it from me to denigrate anyone's kernel religion, but the > advantage of running Debian userspace on a NetBSD kernel, if one is _not_ > on one of Linux's less-well-supported CPU architectures, eludes me. Debian/Sparc runs just fine actually! So maybe you should try something weirder, like an rs6000 ? . | . Heather Stern | star@starshine.org --->*<--- Starshine Technical Services - * - consulting@starshine.org ' | ` Sysadmin Support and Training | (800) 938-4078 From Jeff.Suttor@earthlink.net Wed Apr 30 11:59:48 2003 Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.50]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19Awo0-0000Gd-00 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 11:59:48 -0700 Received: from h-68-164-23-20.snvacaid.covad.net ([68.164.23.20] helo=[192.168.1.101]) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19AwmC-0001wN-00 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 11:57:56 -0700 Subject: Re: [conspire] Debian/BSD From: Jeff Suttor To: conspire@linuxmafia.com In-Reply-To: <20030430183711.GA546@starshine.org> References: <20030430005806.GK21802@linuxmafia.com> <014701c30eca$d4cb45e0$6401a8c0@bill> <20030430095007.GM21802@linuxmafia.com> <20030430183711.GA546@starshine.org> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1051729031.1549.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.1 (1.2.1-1) Date: 30 Apr 2003 11:57:12 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 299 Lines: 12 On Wed, 2003-04-30 at 11:37, Heather Stern wrote: > Debian/Sparc runs just fine actually! So maybe you should try something > weirder, like an rs6000 ? I'm not paying any attention until it's an Xbox. -- Jeff Suttor From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Apr 30 12:17:28 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19Ax56-0000UX-00 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 12:17:28 -0700 Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 12:17:27 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Debian/BSD Message-ID: <20030430191727.GB16795@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030430005806.GK21802@linuxmafia.com> <014701c30eca$d4cb45e0$6401a8c0@bill> <20030430095007.GM21802@linuxmafia.com> <20030430183711.GA546@starshine.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030430183711.GA546@starshine.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 740 Lines: 22 Quoting Heather Stern (star@starshine.org): > Debian/Sparc runs just fine actually! So maybe you should try something > weirder, like an rs6000 ? Love to. ;-> But I'm still left wondering why Bill felt Debian on a NetBSD kernel is particularly of interest because it runs on IA32. Not that I haven't tried to do even more perverse things: I keep trying to find an x86 system compatible with Apple Darwin. The installer always chokes. If I ever were to succeed, it would result in a kind of funky NetBSD, except one lacking (initially) X11 software. -- Cheers, "Get the facts first. You can distort them later." Rick Moen -- Mark Twain rick@linuxmafia.com From bill@billsaysthis.com Wed Apr 30 12:22:59 2003 Received: from self.phpwebhosting.com ([64.65.61.215]) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19AxAR-0000Vy-00 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 12:22:59 -0700 Received: (qmail 14880 invoked by uid 508); 30 Apr 2003 19:21:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bill) (12.234.117.82) by self.phpwebhosting.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 2003 19:21:10 -0000 From: "Bill Lazar" To: Subject: RE: [conspire] Debian/BSD Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 12:20:33 -0700 Message-ID: <015e01c30f4d$92b527b0$6401a8c0@bill> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20030430191727.GB16795@linuxmafia.com> Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 1514 Lines: 53 Rick, I asked because I'm new to the free *NIX scene and one of the puzzles, for me, is the differences between the two 'main' kernels. Since you are generally in favor of Debian as a distro, I thought you or others might have experimented with both and would be able to share some comments. Bill > -----Original Message----- > From: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com > [mailto:conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com] On Behalf Of Rick Moen > Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 12:17 PM > To: conspire@linuxmafia.com > Subject: Re: [conspire] Debian/BSD > > > Quoting Heather Stern (star@starshine.org): > > > Debian/Sparc runs just fine actually! So maybe you should > try something > > weirder, like an rs6000 ? > > Love to. ;-> > > But I'm still left wondering why Bill felt Debian on a NetBSD > kernel is > particularly of interest because it runs on IA32. > > Not that I haven't tried to do even more perverse things: I > keep trying > to find an x86 system compatible with Apple Darwin. The installer > always chokes. > > If I ever were to succeed, it would result in a kind of funky NetBSD, > except one lacking (initially) X11 software. > > -- > Cheers, "Get the facts first. You can > distort them later." > Rick Moen > -- Mark Twain > rick@linuxmafia.com > > _______________________________________________ > conspire mailing list > conspire@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire > > From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Apr 30 13:38:49 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19AyLo-00016U-00; Wed, 30 Apr 2003 13:38:48 -0700 Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 13:38:48 -0700 To: Bill Lazar Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Debian/BSD Message-ID: <20030430203848.GD16795@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030430191727.GB16795@linuxmafia.com> <015e01c30f4d$92b527b0$6401a8c0@bill> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <015e01c30f4d$92b527b0$6401a8c0@bill> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Rick Moen Sender: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com Errors-To: conspire-admin@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Status: O Content-Length: 4339 Lines: 83 Quoting Bill Lazar (bill@billsaysthis.com): > I asked because I'm new to the free *NIX scene and one of the puzzles, > for me, is the differences between the two 'main' kernels. Since you are > generally in favor of Debian as a distro, I thought you or others might > have experimented with both and would be able to share some comments. That's good reasoning. So, let's talk a bit about kernels. In the late 1980s, BSD finally started escaping from academia, as the UC Berkeley Computer Science Research Group (CSRG) people tried several subterfuges to hide the fact that they'd escaped AT&T's copyright claims by replacing substantively all AT&T code with their own inventions. One of those ploys was the release of the first unencumbered version as the "Net/2" tape (ostensibly just a revision of the networking code, but the tape surreptitiously included the entire OS). Various people understood full well the implications, leading to an Intel-compiled version called 386BSD, created around 1990. About which time, for reasons unrelated to 386BSD, AT&T's lawyers descended, blighting the BSD scene until the 1994 settlement. When the dust settled, the 386BSD project had collapsed and CSRG had been dissolved, leaving three free-software offshoots of 386BSD (FreeBSD, NetBSD, and OpenBSD), along with a number of more-distant proprietary cousins: original SunOS, NeXTStep (which is now Apple Darwin and Mac OS X), DEC Ultrix, MachTen, etc. The three progeny of 386BSD justify themselves, in part, through specialisation: Very loosely speaking, OpenBSD is about security, NetBSD is about portability, and FreeBSD is about maximum stability/performance on IA32. But all three of them are refuges for die-hard fans of the pure Berkeley-flavour userspace utilities and administrative regime, as opposed to the generally AT&T System V-style framework the rest of the world has move on to. (As of System V release 4, the vast majority of the Unix world adopted a generally SystemV-ish system structure with "BSD enhancements" -- the better-designed utilities that had been the main reason computing snobs had preferred BSD up to that point. This was a compromise practically everyone could live with, which was then reflected in the POSIX spec, which in turn most Linux-based systems follow fairly closely.) But the various BSDs lived on, keeping the original faith alive. NetBSD, one of the three free-software forks, had a kernel designed to be easily ported to new hardware. It was/is not very high-performance; it's very conservatively and reliably designed; it doesn't have good SMP or very broad driver support for hardware chipsets, filesystems, etc. Don't forget that an OS kernel consists of sets of drivers, code to service low-level hardware requests (e.g., interrupts), a process handler and scheduler, a memory handler (including virtual memory), code for mediating with filesystems, various cache handlers, and handlers for semaphores and signals. That's all it is. In particular, users have no direct interaction with the kernel, whatsoever. (That's a shell's job.) BSD proponents would say that the NetBSD kernel is better than the Linux one in being more "correctly designed" (a polemical term), with a more reliable and settled development process. Linux proponents would maintain the reverse, on grounds of the Linux kernel being more modern and ambitious, with a more-active and productive development model (also polemical terms, albeit less so). A true-blue BSD user expects to see a Berkeley init structure in /etc, a ports skeleton and Berkeley package system for adding new software, and the pure-Berkeley userspace utilities set (with a few intrusions of GNU pieces, here and there). Needless to say, he would not see that on a Debian system running on the NetBSD kernel: He'd see the loathed SystemV/POSIX/Linux monster squatting atop the beloved (but mostly invisible) BSD kernel. Meanwhile, a Linux enthusiast would see what _looks_ a lot like a traditional GNU/Linux system, except it doesn't run Linux binaries for the same architecture without recompiling, it's slower, it lacks a lot of the usual drivers, and it has a really bizarre kernel-compile routine. I hope that helps. -- Cheers, Rick Moen ROMANI, ITE DOMVM! rick@linuxmafia.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Sat May 10 17:26:35 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19Eefi-0006ps-00 for ; Sat, 10 May 2003 17:26:34 -0700 Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 17:26:34 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20030511002634.GB11041@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] CABAL meeting today, upcoming installfest X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 00:26:35 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 989 Lines: 20 This message is partially in the nature of a test, since I finally upgraded Mailman (the mailing list software) to the new 2.1 series, which has _lots_ of neat new features. Among them is that you guys can choose whether or not to get monthly password reminders, individually. It's on your subscription option pages. Today is a CABAL meeting day -- the meeting will be ongoing to maybe 11 PM or so -- but it happens to also be the _only_ CABAL meeting we're going to have in May. Why? Because a lot of us will be at the Bay Area's annual science fiction convention, BayCon, over the Memorial Day weekend. So, no 4th Saturday meeting this month. The following month, June, we'll return to the regular two-meeting bit, plus We will be having an installfest at the Oakland Convention Center on June 28. -- Cheers, I've been suffering death by PowerPoint, recently. Rick Moen -- Huw Davies rick@linuxmafia.com From mailjones@mouseandfrog.org Mon May 12 13:39:50 2003 Received: from smtp.everyone.net ([216.200.145.17] helo=rmta01.mta.everyone.net) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19FK5O-0008O8-00 for ; Mon, 12 May 2003 13:39:50 -0700 Received: from SFSEANW2.mouseandfrog.org (unknown [205.132.172.230]) by rmta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D6B0A3E62 for ; Mon, 12 May 2003 13:37:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.1.1.6.0.20030512131341.00acc9d8@pop.everyone.net> X-Sender: mailjones@mouseandfrog.org@pop.everyone.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 13:36:54 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com From: Sean Wolfe-Justice Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [conspire] bandwidth limiting & DSL question X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 20:39:52 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 489 Lines: 12 Howdy there folks. Hope you all are doing well. . . Okay, so a friend approached me with an interesting scenario and I wondered if there might be a penguinish solution. He wants to restrict upload rates on his DSL connection to <=1K while allowing full download rates. With a Linux box and two Ethernet NICs, one to his DSL router and one to his LAN, would this be doable? Does Linux have functionality to limit traffic rates in this way? Inquiring minds want to know. . . thanks. From rick@linuxmafia.com Mon May 12 14:29:57 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19FKrt-0000Y2-00 for ; Mon, 12 May 2003 14:29:57 -0700 Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 14:29:57 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] bandwidth limiting & DSL question Message-ID: <20030512212957.GU819@linuxmafia.com> References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030512131341.00acc9d8@pop.everyone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030512131341.00acc9d8@pop.everyone.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Rick Moen X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 21:29:58 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2953 Lines: 76 Quoting Sean Wolfe-Justice (mailjones@mouseandfrog.org): > Okay, so a friend approached me with an interesting scenario and I wondered > if there might be a penguinish solution. He wants to restrict upload rates > on his DSL connection to <=1K while allowing full download rates. > > With a Linux box and two Ethernet NICs, one to his DSL router and one to > his LAN, would this be doable? Does Linux have functionality to limit > traffic rates in this way? Funny you should ask that. Here at chez Linuxmafia, we have a very similar situation: This household is on a home aDSL line, with a theoretical upload cap of something like 256 kbps -- which by all rights ought to be a lot of bandwidth. The fly in the ointment is something called the Wheel of Time FAQ, http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/ , which has become insanely popular and has been pretty much killing our outbound bandwidth. The FAQ is mirrored at several other sites, but, because the FAQ maintainers couldn't be convinced to take effective measures to even out the traffic among the sites, and so we had to take corrective measures at our end: 1. First, we exchanged the top-level index.html for an index.php that picks a random number and, 60% of the time, redirects to one of the several mirror sites. This measure helped, but we still had problems that probably resulted from people's hyperlinks to internal pages (deeper in the FAQ). 2. (This is the part directly relevant to your query.) Since we still had a problem with saturating the DSL, we _also_ implemented Apache's mod_throttle. You have to load the mod_throttle.so dynamic shared object, and also have an httpd.conf stanza like the following: # throttle controls # Assert default values. ThrottleBps 15000 ThrottleSlack 100 ThrottleIndicator green 75 ThrottleIndicator yellow 85 ThrottleIndicator red 95 ThrottleMaxDelay 15 ThrottleContentType text/html # Monitor or throttle users. ThrottleUser nobody 0 # Enable status display handler. SetHandler throttle-info Order deny,allow Deny from all Allow from all Our experience suggests that mod_throttle is still a bit buggy, and causes various problems. We actually have it turned off at the moment, as a result. Completely aside from that, the 2.4 kernel offers some nice traffic-shaping features at the kernel (as opposed to application) level. Here are some relevant links: http://linux.oreillynet.com/pub/a/linux/2000/08/24/LinuxAdmin.html http://lartc.org/ http://talk.trekweb.com/~jasonb/articles/linux_tc_minihowto.shtml I haven't played with those things, so can't fairly comment further. -- Cheers, find / -user your -name base -print | xargs chown us:us Rick Moen rick@linuxmafia.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed May 21 02:16:01 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19IPhY-0002bV-00 for ; Wed, 21 May 2003 02:16:00 -0700 Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 02:15:59 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20030521091559.GF29924@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] No CABAL meeting this Saturday, but come to BayCon! X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 09:16:01 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 867 Lines: 18 OK, I've finally fixed the event listings on the CABAL Web page, and also fixed both it and the BALE listings to correctly show that there will _not_ be a CABAL meeting this Saturday. The reason is that I, Mike Higashi, and a lot of other people will be at the Bay Area's annual science fiction convention, BayCon (http://www.baycon.org/), which runs this Friday through Monday at the Doubletree Hotel in San Jose. Consider coming, if you're in the area. (One-day memberships are available, as well as for all four days.) Of possible additional interest: Mike Higashi, Chris di Bona, and I will (at BayCon) be on a panel discussion Monday at 2:30 PM called "The Future of Linux". -- Cheers, I've been suffering death by PowerPoint, recently. Rick Moen -- Huw Davies rick@linuxmafia.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Jun 04 00:18:48 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19NSXo-0006Ru-00 for ; Wed, 04 Jun 2003 00:18:48 -0700 Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 00:18:48 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20030604071848.GR4470@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i Subject: [conspire] Modern SCO Executive X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 07:18:48 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 4605 Lines: 126 Archived copy will be at http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/PiratesOfPenguinance Modern SCO Executive (Apologies to Gilbert, Sullivan, and most of humanity) (Send brickbats to: Rick Moen and Karsten Self) [The scene: Major-General Darl McBride has stepped up to the fo'castle of HMS SCaldera, which has just fought its first skirmish against the dread Pirates of Penguinance. He prepares to hold a press conference^W^W^W^W address the troops:] McBride: I am the very model of a modern SCO executive. Our market share is minuscule; our losses are consecutive. But from our labs deep in U-T, you very soon will surely see The ultimate, the pinnacle, in high-technolo-barratry. "Live free or die" philosophies are very well, but still, you see: Our contracts and our trade secrets make Unix seem our property. Never mind what we really own (a question not rhetorical): We have thirty thousand contracts, though most are quite historical. Lawyer Chorus: We have thirty thousand contracts, though most are quite historical. We have thirty thousand contracts, though most are quite historical. We have thirty thousand contracts, though most are quite historical. McBride: While our profit's been elusive, our tort claims are unremitting, And Blake Stowell's PR quota is still dozens at each sitting. In short, in matters litigual, continual, accusative, I am the very model of a modern SCO executive. Lawyer Chorus: In short, in matters litigual, continual, accusative, He is the very model of a modern SCO executive. McBride: Our history's mythological (per Eric, it's not factual). I answer simple questions with evasions indeciph'rable. I'm quoted in the IT press, first one and then another way, And if that's not quite sufficient, then Sontag runs some blocking play. I'm not so good with copyrights, Novell's got those (they say to us), Our patent holding's very slim, our valuation's perilous. But please don't ever hit me with our POSIX system standard score. I'm always quite confused by that infernal nonsense System 4. Lawyer Chorus: He's always quite confused by that infernal nonsense System 4. He's always quite confused by that infernal nonsense System 4. He's always quite confused by that infernal nonsense System 4. McBride: That freaky hippie GPL, you'd think we'd never heard of it! And all that code we say they took? The Stevens book's got every bit. In short, with markets minimal and losses quite consecutive, I am the very model of a modern SCO executive. Lawyer Chorus: In short with markets minimal and losses quite consecutive, He is the very model of a modern SCO executive! McBride: Our name is "SCO" (although we really still are Caldera): Our Eighties business plan seemed good; why permit a change of era? That old IP that passed to us seemed ripe for legal mining. We're not quite clear on what it is, but it must have been worth buying. I look with great anxiety on Linux and on BSD. I've signed up with the Devil: Chairman Bill sent a huge license fee. He says he has a high regard for intellectual property, But I really haven't thought much what he'll do when he's done with me. Lawyer Chorus: But he really hasn't thought much what he'll do when he's done with him. But he really hasn't thought much what he'll do when he's done with him. But he really hasn't thought much what he'll do when he's done with him. McBride: Our contract reach is deep and broad, and gives us exclusivity: The lawyers tell us to shoot wide. (Who'll notice things like privity?) From the penguinista rabble, I've earned naught but opprobrium. But dare I'll say I'm twice the man of anyone at I-B-M. Lawyer Chorus: But dare'e'll say he's twice the man of anyone at I-B-M. But dare'e'll say he's twice the man of anyone at I-B-M. But dare'e'll say he's twice the man of anyone at I-B-IBM. McBride: So though we have run quite amok, we readily will go away, If for our worthless capital, you were this tidy sum to pay. In short, with markets minuscule and losses quite consecutive, I am the very model of a modern SCO executive. Lawyer Chorus: In short, with markets minuscule and losses quite consecutive, I am the very model of a modern SCO executive. -- Cheers, I have /usr/sbin/coffee mounted from /dev/mug right now, Rick Moen and you can't have it. Oh no, I just tried to seek past rick@linuxmafia.com end-of-beverage. *sigh* -- Graham Reed, in the Monastery From rick@linuxmafia.com Fri Jun 06 00:37:45 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19OBnF-0007PC-00 for ; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 00:37:45 -0700 Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 00:37:44 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20030606073744.GR29461@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] Just in case anyone mentioned problems with the list X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 07:37:45 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1606 Lines: 32 If you or anyone you know attempted to subscribe or unsubscribe from this mailing list during the past month, there would have been a software problem: Following an upgrade to Mailman 2.1.x, the SMTP mailer software (Exim) was for about a few weeks unable to process its admin requests (subscribe, unsubscribe, leave, join, confirm, etc.), because I didn't know that exim.conf needed manual hacking -- again. In case anyone cases, there _is_ a standard, stable interface between mailing list manager programs (such as Mailman) and mail transport agents (such as Exim): It requires pasting a bunch of mail aliases manually into /etc/aliases every time you create a new list and removing them when you discontinue it. However, there's a much nicer way of running things, if the MTA is Exim: You can put some fixed-content lines into exim.conf so that Exim thereafter reads Mailman's configuration directly. But, of course, the Mailman maintainers never said _that_ interface to MTAs would remain stable, and, alas, it changed with the 2.0.x to 2.1.x upgrade, which fact I missed. I _think_ I've fixed it completely, now -- with the minor exception that new subscription requests get _two_ confirmation-request e-mails, instead of the one they should. (The user can reply to either one, and I've confirmed that it works.) I'm trying to chase that glitch down, but it doesn't seem to matter much. Next CABAL meeting will be a week from this coming Saturday -- the 14th. See y'all then! -- Cheers, Ceterum censeo, Caldera delenda est. Rick Moen rick@linuxmafia.com From bill@wards.dyndns.org Thu Jun 05 20:15:47 2003 Received: from smtp2.sasquatch.com ([216.218.236.166]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19O7hj-0005Ny-00 for ; Thu, 05 Jun 2003 20:15:47 -0700 Received: (qmail 1920 invoked by uid 7794); 6 Jun 2003 03:11:28 -0000 Received: from bill@wards.dyndns.org by smtp2.sasquatch.com by uid 7791 with qmail-scanner-1.14 (sophie: 2.14/1.42 Clear:. Processed in 0.03987 secs); 06 Jun 2003 03:11:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO komodo.home.wards.net) (12.234.96.211) by smtp2.sasquatch.com with SMTP; 6 Jun 2003 03:11:28 -0000 Received: from bill by komodo.home.wards.net with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19O7dX-0008AF-00; Thu, 05 Jun 2003 20:11:27 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <16096.1631.613254.567336@komodo.home.wards.net> Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 20:11:27 -0700 From: bill@wards.net (William R Ward) To: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailer: VM 7.03 under Emacs 20.7.2 Sender: Bill Ward X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 09:41:58 -0700 Subject: [conspire] Hello X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 03:15:48 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 438 Lines: 11 I have just joined this mailing list, with a little help from Rick since the web interface was not working... just wanted to say hi. --Bill. -- William R Ward bill@wards.net http://www.wards.net/~bill/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines." - Emerson From bill@wards.dyndns.org Thu Jun 05 20:20:58 2003 Received: from smtp2.sasquatch.com ([216.218.236.166]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19O7mk-0005PA-00 for ; Thu, 05 Jun 2003 20:20:58 -0700 Received: (qmail 7513 invoked by uid 7794); 6 Jun 2003 03:16:39 -0000 Received: from bill@wards.dyndns.org by smtp2.sasquatch.com by uid 7791 with qmail-scanner-1.14 (sophie: 2.14/1.42 Clear:. Processed in 0.035724 secs); 06 Jun 2003 03:16:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO komodo.home.wards.net) (12.234.96.211) by smtp2.sasquatch.com with SMTP; 6 Jun 2003 03:16:39 -0000 Received: from bill by komodo.home.wards.net with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19O7iY-0008IF-00; Thu, 05 Jun 2003 20:16:38 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <16096.1942.568614.376226@komodo.home.wards.net> Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 20:16:38 -0700 From: bill@wards.net (William R Ward) To: conspire@linuxmafia.com In-Reply-To: <16096.1631.613254.567336@komodo.home.wards.net> References: <16096.1631.613254.567336@komodo.home.wards.net> X-Mailer: VM 7.03 under Emacs 20.7.2 Sender: Bill Ward X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 09:41:58 -0700 Subject: [conspire] Re: Hello X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 03:20:59 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 546 Lines: 13 William R Ward writes: > >I have just joined this mailing list, with a little help from Rick >since the web interface was not working... just wanted to say hi. Sorry, I mistyped. I mean because the email confirmation address system was not working. -- William R Ward bill@wards.net http://www.wards.net/~bill/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines." - Emerson From sanchez_roger@yahoo.com Fri Jun 06 11:53:04 2003 Received: from web20001.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.225.46]) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19OMKl-0006rH-00 for ; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 11:53:03 -0700 Message-ID: <20030606184825.21669.qmail@web20001.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.20.98.115] by web20001.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 11:48:25 PDT Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 11:48:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Roger Sanchez To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 14:13:15 -0700 Subject: [conspire] Hello bay area! I need help with Eth0 on RedHat 9 + VMWare X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 18:53:04 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1044 Lines: 24 I am running RedHat Linux 9 on VMware v 4. on top of XP-Pro (host). I just installed Linux 9 over what used to be a Solaris partition (probably irrelevant but worth mentioning). Everything works swimmingly except eth0. Which returns the following error when started: "Determining IP address for Eth0 failed no network present, check cable?" I have mucked around with modules.conf changing the preset pcnet32 to 3c59x (which is what my laptop uses)... Here is where I am confused though... I assume that VMware is creating a virtual networking card of sorts and bridging it to my card... So maybe the pcnet32 is infact the right option. The tricky thing about this all though is by swapping in and out the options the card has intermittently worked twice. Or is this just a matter of needing to compile the module into the kernel. Well no matter, I appreciate any and all responses! Thanks all. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Fri Jun 06 14:24:05 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19OOgu-0008Vp-00 for ; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 14:24:04 -0700 Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:24:04 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Hello bay area! I need help with Eth0 on RedHat 9 + VMWare Message-ID: <20030606212404.GH29461@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030606184825.21669.qmail@web20001.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030606184825.21669.qmail@web20001.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Rick Moen X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 21:24:05 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1203 Lines: 25 Quoting Roger Sanchez (sanchez_roger@yahoo.com): > I have mucked around with modules.conf changing the preset pcnet32 to > 3c59x (which is what my laptop uses)... Here is where I am confused > though... I assume that VMware is creating a virtual networking card > of sorts and bridging it to my card... So maybe the pcnet32 is infact > the right option. It actually is. The virtual hardware that VMware expects to talk to has an AMD PCI bus NE2100 ethernet device, regardless of what real hardware exists "outside the box". I'm a little rusty on VMware configuration. Perhaps it's something as simple as not specifying DHCP for the virtual interface's address? I vaguely recall that there are installation options to determine whether there will be IP-forwarding between the vmnet1 virtual network and the host's external interfaces, and things like that. Perhaps you just need to re-do the installation and heed closely those matters during the install. -- Cheers, Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based, Rick Moen not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed, rick@linuxmafia.com modern-American-English-usage-improvement association. From markbilk@attbi.com Sat Jun 07 07:55:57 2003 Received: from sccrmhc02.attbi.com ([204.127.202.62]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19Of6r-00023k-00 for ; Sat, 07 Jun 2003 07:55:57 -0700 Received: from isis (12-234-96-106.client.attbi.com[12.234.96.106]) by attbi.com (sccrmhc02) with SMTP id <2003060714505900200dmbuae>; Sat, 7 Jun 2003 14:50:59 +0000 From: "Mark S Bilk" To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 07:49:24 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0306061235322M.25409@isis> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit cc: Mark S Bilk Subject: [conspire] Anyone have SuSE 8.2 Pro and want to make me a copy? X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 14:55:59 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 937 Lines: 25 I've bought about six SuSE boxed sets over the years, but now I don't have much money and would like to get a copy of the 5 CDs (not the DVDs) in SuSE 8.2 Pro, if I can. SuSE is totally OK with this; I phoned their U.S. office at (510)-628-3380 and the guy there said he's asked the higher-ups several times and they say it's perfectly OK to copy any or all of the disks in the 8.2 Pro box or below (but not in the commercial server sets) and give them away, as long as it's not for money. (However, there is no restriction regarding lunch. 8^) I'd rather use the CDs than get it from the ftp site, because there's stuff missing from the ftp version, and there's no list of what's missing. I don't have a CD writer, so I can't make the copies myself. Is there a kindly SuSE 8.2 Pro user in Silicon Valley who would like to burn the 5 CDs for me? (Somewhere amid the Debian and Gentoo gurus... 8^) Thanks, Mark From rick@linuxmafia.com Sat Jun 07 11:02:29 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19Oi1N-00043a-00 for ; Sat, 07 Jun 2003 11:02:29 -0700 Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 11:02:29 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Anyone have SuSE 8.2 Pro and want to make me a copy? Message-ID: <20030607180229.GH29461@linuxmafia.com> References: <0306061235322M.25409@isis> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <0306061235322M.25409@isis> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Rick Moen X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 18:02:30 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 16633 Lines: 466 Quoting Mark S Bilk (mark@cosmicpenguin.com): > SuSE is totally OK with this; I phoned their U.S. office at > (510)-628-3380 and the guy there said he's asked the higher-ups > several times and they say it's perfectly OK to copy any or > all of the disks in the 8.2 Pro box or below (but not in the > commercial server sets) and give them away, as long as it's > not for money. (However, there is no restriction regarding > lunch. 8^) Mark, I _believe you_ that the Oakland office said this. The problem is that they don't have those rights, because of the many restricted third-party codebases in SuSE Pro that are licensed on a per-seat basis and which SuSE Linux AG sells only as agent for the copyright holders concerned. In other words, getting SuSE Linux AG's permission _doesn't suffice_, because they cannot speak for those copyright holders. (They shouldn't be telling people it's OK; they could get those people really upset at them and at their customers.) The matter keeps coming up because SuSE Linux AG's staff keep giving people bad advice on the matter, contradicting both obvious concerns of property law (How can they give permission to duplicate freely, for codebases concerning which they don't have that right, themselves?) and their own legal notices on their ftp site. Here's the conversation that came up, about that, on the Irish Linux User Group mailing list: --------- From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Wed May 7 17:51:22 2003 Subject: [ILUG] SuSe Quoting adam beecher (lists@spamfilter.cc): > 1. Does burning SuSe violate their licence? > 2. If the answer to 1. is 'no', will someone burn 8.2 for me please? At any given time, there are several _editions_ of SuSE. They have differing contents; some may be lawfully redistributed in a non-profit fashion. However, I strongly suspect you have in mind one of the boxed-set retail editions, which contain quite a lot of third-party proprietary software that are per-user licensed and may not be lawfully duplicated and handed around. http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/suse-product-strategy From: niall at linux.ie (Niall O Broin) Date: Wed May 7 17:51:30 2003 Subject: [ILUG] SuSe Message-ID: <200305071751.06960.niall@linux.ie> On Wednesday 07 May 2003 17:28, Stephane Dudzinski wrote: > Yes it does. Last time I checked you actually needed to purchase a set No, it doesn't, facetious answers aside (and that was no anyway). From COPYRIGHT.yast on the root of my SuSE 8.2 DVD Distribution of the YaST 2 programme, its sources, whether amended or unamended in full or in part thereof, and the works derived thereof for a charge require the prior written consent of SuSE Linux AG. . . . It is forbidden to reproduce or distribute data carriers which have been reproduced without authorisation for payment without the prior written consent of SuSE Linux AG or SuSE Linux. The key phrases there are "for a charge" and "for payment". If some kind person wants to burn Adam a copy of their SuSE 8.2 without payment, that is NOT forbidden by the license. > then you were free to install it on one or several machines but you > need to *hold* an official boxset or if you can wait a bit, do the ftp > install, should be available soon. And as FTP install was mentioned, again from COPYRIGHT.yast All programmes derived from YaST 2, and all works derived thereof as a whole or parts thereof may only be disseminated with the amended sources and this licence in accordance with 2b). Making YaST 2 or works derived thereof available free of charge together with SuSE Linux on FTP Servers and mailboxes is permitted if the licences on the software are observed. But no doubt, there will be more uninformed speculation here about SuSE's license, uncluttered by the light of reality. From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Wed May 7 18:09:43 2003 Subject: [ILUG] SuSe Quoting Niall O Broin (niall@linux.ie): > No, it doesn't, facetious answers aside (and that was no anyway). From > COPYRIGHT.yast on the root of my SuSE 8.2 DVD > > Distribution of the YaST 2 programme, its sources, whether amended or > unamended in full or in part thereof, and the works derived thereof for a > charge require the prior written consent of SuSE Linux AG. If YaST2 were the only proprietary codebase on the Professional Edition and Personal Edition disks, then this would be a relevant objection. From: lists at spamfilter.cc (adam beecher) Date: Thu May 8 13:36:32 2003 Subject: [ILUG] SuSe Well, I'm still none the wiser, but it seems to be one of those ongoing arguments that never gets solved. I'll try asking SuSe to see what they say, but I find it hard to believe that someone hasn't done this before, so I won't hold my breath. I'll be disappointed if they say no, though. To be perfectly frank, I've got better things to do with the 150 hours UTV give me per month, and I'm not lashing out for a boxed set just to have it sit gathering dust when I revert to my current desktop OS because it didn't make the grade again. I see that the cheapy distributors don't distribute Red Hat either, does the same policy apply here? (I know the ISO's are available online, but where do they stand on distributing for free/cost?) Thanks for the feedback anyway. adam From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Thu May 8 18:17:43 2003 Subject: [ILUG] SuSe Quoting adam beecher (lists@spamfilter.cc): > Well, I'm still none the wiser, but it seems to be one of those > ongoing arguments that never gets solved. I'll try asking SuSe to see > what they say, but I find it hard to believe that someone hasn't done > this before, so I won't hold my breath. My recollection is that prior inquries have produced a number of vague and mutually contradictory statements of "Well, we have no problem with a limited amount of sharing" or "Sure, if this is done low-key and by a LUG" or such, but nobody willing to be quoted on the record as stating company policy, let alone any publicly accessible statement -- other than the actual licensing terms of the several thousand packages listed at (e.g.): http://www.suse.de/us/private/products/suse_linux/i386/packages_professional/index_all.html (Professional Edition). At a glance, the following packages (at a minimum) stand out, as being ones whose copyright holders are known to not permit redistribution: Adobe Acroread Moneyplex OpenPBS Opera Web browser Real Networks RealPlayer8 The Personal Edition includes all of those other than OpenPBS. Theoretically, of course, any or all of those copyright holders could have departed from their usual pattern and issued to SuSE Linux AG copies licensed for public redistribution. One would have to check a current version SuSE boxed set's CD contents. But I rather doubt it. Absent that extremely unlikely possibility, I can't see how there _can_ be any doubt on this matter: Those packages simply are _not_ licensed for public redistribution, period. It's an incontrovertable fact. Many SuSE versions ago, there actually were a lot _more_ packages of that sort, e.g. (quoting an old list of mine): Siemens AG's DB4Web middleware Poet Software Corp. FastObjects SDK for Java and C++ www.mimer.com's MimerSQL MGE UPS Systems's Personal Solution Pac (MGE power management software) Software AG's ADABAS D H+BEDV Datentechnik GmbH's AntiVir V Knox Sofware Comm.'s Arkeia Datan's dataplore digital-signal analysis package Enterprise Solution Server (ESS) ERP system Borland Kylix Open Edition Moneydance Sun Microsystems Star Office None of those packages are included any more, and the number of non-redistributable packages has definitely gone way down. Since all of those packages (in both lists, above) are owned by third-party companies, asking for a permissions statement from SuSE Linux AG employees isn't really very useful: SuSE Linux AG can pass along only the rights granted by those other firms. (YaST/YaST2 is a different story, because SuSE Linux AG actually owns it.) > I see that the cheapy distributors don't distribute Red Hat either, > does the same policy apply here? (I know the ISO's are available > online, but where do they stand on distributing for free/cost?) Red Hat, Inc. have a rather aggressive policy about use of their trademarked phrases, the "Shadowman" logo, the Bluecurve screen images, and so on, which have made many CD vendors cautious about whether and in what fashion they redistribute RHL's CD contents. There are no impediments from copyright law, on the other hand: The only proprietary package I spot in RH9, the pine/pico one, has terms that permit public redistribution. From: ilug_gmc at fiachra.ucd.ie (Gavin McCullagh) Date: Fri May 9 10:45:45 2003 Subject: [ILUG] SuSe On Thu, 08 May 2003, Rick Moen wrote: > (Professional Edition). At a glance, the following packages (at a > minimum) stand out, as being ones whose copyright holders are known to > not permit redistribution: > > Adobe Acroread > Moneyplex > OpenPBS > Opera Web browser > Real Networks RealPlayer8 > > The Personal Edition includes all of those other than OpenPBS. The impression could be taken (perhaps by a very cynical person) that Suse AG do this deliberately as an excuse for the cds not to be redistributable. It wouldn't take much for them to partition the cds into non-free and free as Debian do. Then people could redistribute the free part. This of course assumes YAST2 and other base components to be redistributable at least in unmodified binary form for non-commercial purposes. Gavin From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Fri May 9 18:08:48 2003 Subject: [ILUG] SuSe Quoting Gavin McCullagh (ilug_gmc@fiachra.ucd.ie): [My lists of some non-redistributable codebases in Professional and Personal Editions, snipped.] > The impression could be taken (perhaps by a very cynical person) that > Suse AG do this deliberately as an excuse for the cds not to be > redistributable. It wouldn't take much for them to partition the cds > into non-free and free as Debian do. Then people could redistribute > the free part. > > This of course assumes YAST2 and other base components to be > redistributable at least in unmodified binary form for non-commercial > purposes. Your assumption is true to the best of my understanding. (The licence for YaST / YaST2 / the distribution installer permits any redistribution, with or without modification, that is not "for value", or words to that effect.) Another, perhaps easier starting point would be the Ftp Edition, which always includes only publicly redistributable packages. The disadvantages would be that (1) it doesn't start out being organised into ISOs, and (2) Ftp Edition releases typically come out about four weeks after Professional and Personal Edition ones. For example, the current Ftp Edition release is still 8.1. Actually, if you anticipate needing to install SuSE onto several machines, you can just grab a mirror copy of the entire Ftp Edition file tree -- about 3-4 GB -- and use it for local-network installs, with SuSE Linux AG's blessing. This mode of usage avoids the need to divide things up into ISOs and adjust the installer / YaST / YaST2 to recognise that fact. Personally, my main interest is in helping people understand the particulars of SuSE's licence status and end the persistent confusion on the subject. From: lists at spamfilter.cc (adam beecher) Date: Thu May 15 20:57:37 2003 Subject: [ILUG] FW: SuSe ISO permissions SuSE's response to my query about redistributing SuSE is below, and it looks pretty definitive to me. So any chance of someone burning a copy for me? If you send me your address, I'll send an SAE with two CD's for each (binary) CD in the distro; in case of Coaster Syndrome. And thanks to everyone for their feedback. adam -----Original Message----- From: Rick Holzer [mailto:rholzer@suse.com] Sent: 15 May 2003 18:44 To: ad@m.beecher.net Subject: Re: SuSe ISO permissions Hi Adam. Thanks for your patience and concern. It is legal to copy and redistribute SuSE Linux as long as no money is changing hands. -- Best regards, Rick Holzer SuSE, Inc. From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Fri May 16 11:28:55 2003 Subject: [ILUG] FW: SuSe ISO permissions Cc: Rick Holzer Quoting adam beecher (lists@spamfilter.cc): > SuSE's response to my query about redistributing SuSE is below, and it > looks pretty definitive to me. It says that _SuSE, Inc._ (presumably speaking also for SuSE Linux AG) wouldn't object -- although, sadly, he doesn't clarify whether he's speaking about all SuSE editions or about some editions and not others. (I'm Cc'ing him; perhaps he will be willing to clarify.) But.... The _much_ larger problem is that SuSE Linux AG simply _cannot_ grant permission on behalf of the many third-party copyright holders whose codebases are included in the Personal Edition, Professional Edition, and Enterprise Server Edition (specifically, the ones who are known to license their codebases per-copy without the right to redistribute). Earlier, I posted a list comprising a _sample_ of those codebases: Adobe Acroread Moneyplex OpenPBS Opera Web browser Real Networks RealPlayer8 (There are probably lots of others. Those were the ones that stood out, at a quick glance.) Mr. Holzer? Does SuSE Linux AG have on file copyright owners' written grants of permission (to the public) to redistribute, covering _all_ the third-party proprietary components in SuSE Linux Professional Edition v. 8.2? Are those accessible on-line anywhere? URL, please? Absent those third-party permission grants being in writing somewhere, Mr. Holzer's e-mail would seem functionally equivalent to what's in ftp://ftp.suse.com/pub/suse/i386/current/COPYRIGHT.yast covering YaST/YaST2 (that you may do non-commercial copying of the SuSE-owned pieces) -- but we already knew that. Mr. Holzer: I'm sure you honestly _do_ think this is a simple matter of SuSE itself granting permission, and your saying that does both you and your company credit. However, here's a relevant quotation from one of your own company files, at ftp://ftp.suse.com/pub/README.iso-images.english : With our SuSE Linux FTP version (SuSE Linux Professional, excluding commercial program packages, which we are not allowed to offer on their own for download) we provide a free service for all those who wish to install SuSE Linux via FTP. The file would seem to be referring to packages such as the five cited above. Those and others aren't in the FTP edition[1] because the companies that own them don't permit it -- which means you, Mr. Holzer, unfortunately can't, either. If you still think otherwise, I really strongly suggest you consult your corporate counsel. Seriously. [1] Actually, I'm intrigued to note that Acroread and OpenPBS _are_ in the FTP edition, which is interesting because ordinarily their terms don't permit public redistribution, and they're available only either directly from their issuers or directly from licensees. From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Fri May 16 18:20:35 2003 Subject: (forw) Re: [ILUG] FW: SuSe ISO permissions ----- Forwarded message from Rick Holzer ----- Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 10:13:01 -0700 From: Rick Holzer To: Rick Moen Cc: "Mr. Dyroff, Holger" Subject: Re: [ILUG] FW: SuSe ISO permissions Hi Rick. It appears that I may have mis-spoken. I am forwarding this on to our Head of US Operations who can offer an official SuSE Policy statment. -- Best regards, Rick Holzer SuSE, Inc. ---------- You'll notice that, even after this conversation, Holzer is _still_ under the delusion that he can settle the matter by seeking an "official SuSE Policy statement", as if that could overcome concerns about violating other companies' property rights. Well, that's the way corporate people tend to think -- that everything can be settled by consulting company policy -- until their corporate legal staff hit them with a clue stick and say "No". Anyhow, apologies for the length of this, but I'm sorry to say that they mislead you, and the only lawful way to get SuSE Linux Pro 8.2 is to buy a copy. -- Cheers, Bad Unabomber! Rick Moen Blowing people all to hell. rick@linuxmafia.com Do you take requests? -- Unabomber Haiku Contest, CyberLaw mailing list From rick@linuxmafia.com Sat Jun 07 11:10:50 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19Oi9S-00049Z-00 for ; Sat, 07 Jun 2003 11:10:50 -0700 Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 11:10:50 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20030607181050.GI29461@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] Sat. June 14 CABAL meeting cancelled X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 18:10:50 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 257 Lines: 7 Sorry about this, but there's been a death in my family, and I'm obliged to be in Napa on Saturday, June 14 (at week from today) for the memorial service. Therefore, no CABAL meeting that day. I'll fix the Web site concerning that. Best Regards, Rick M. From markbilk@attbi.com Sun Jun 08 09:39:00 2003 Received: from sccrmhc02.attbi.com ([204.127.202.62]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19P3C8-0001oT-00 for ; Sun, 08 Jun 2003 09:39:00 -0700 Received: from isis (12-234-96-106.client.attbi.com[12.234.96.106]) by attbi.com (sccrmhc02) with SMTP id <2003060816331800200dng72e>; Sun, 8 Jun 2003 16:33:19 +0000 From: "Mark S Bilk" To: conspire@linuxmafia.com, "SVLUG List" Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 09:05:50 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0306061235322M.25409@isis> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [conspire] Last Year's Supercomputer X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 16:39:00 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2835 Lines: 73 Seduced by the Friday Fry's ad, I'm planning to spend my last $300 on upgrading my pentium 133MHz/64MB computer, since I seem to spend half my life waiting for it to swap (currently using 62MB RAM and 263 MB of swap, for eight 1600x1200 desktops and 230 processes). A state-of-the-art CPU and motherboard would double the cost (and the i875 chipset in the new high-speed ASUS mobo may not be supported in the kernel completely), so I'm settling for last year's (18 months ago?) state-of-the-art, now reduced for quick clearance. To one who started on PDP-8s, it's still a supercomputer! Below is a list of the pieces I've chosen (Fry's prices good through Tuesday 6/10). If anyone has reason to believe any of these items would be a big mistake, please let me know. There are some questions interspersed in the list, too. And if anyone else needs a cheap computer, well, check it out. One problem is no memory ECC. ECC adds little to the cost of the memory sticks, but only the $180+ motherboards support error checking, adding about $160. Does DDR RAM ever drop bits occasionally? I'd like to be able to trust my data. $100 AMD Athlon XP 2400+ CPU 1.93GHz, 266Mhz bus, 128KB L1 cache, 256KB L2 cache. http://www.amd.com http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/ProductInformation/0,,30_118_3734_3759,00.html with ECS K7S5A Pro motherboard, SiS 735 chipset http://www.ecsusa.com/products/k7s5a_pro.html 5 PCI, 2 DDR -- total 1GB RAM, 266 MHz FSB, AC'97 sound, 10/100 NIC, 4 USB 2.0, UDMA 100 IDE, 4X AGP. SuSE hdwe DB says it's supported. No Firewire (an IEEE 1394 PCI card costs $13). $ 30 CPU heatsink/fan 50 512MB 266MHz DDR memory stick (guessing on Fry's price) http://www.pricewatch.com/ 21 Tekram DC-315U Ultra-SCSI/SCSI-2 controller PCI card with internal and external connectors. SuSE HDB OK. http://www.tekram.com (Don't know if Fry's has this.) ftp://ftp.tekram.com/documentation/tekram_scsi.pdf 67 Power supply - PC Power & Cooling Turbo-Cool 350ATX/ATX12V noise 42dB(A), or Silencer 275 ATX/ATX12V noise 34dB(a) http://www.pcpowerandcooling.com Can these be bought locally? ?? Case Will a current ATX motherboard and power supply fit in a 1997 ATX case? or 60 Enermax case and 330W power supply, four 5" & five 3" bays 20 (after rebate) Pacific Digital Mach52 CD-RW 52x24x52 IDE http://www.pacificdigitalcorp.com/products/522452ide.htm 8 50 CD-R blanks, 52X, GQ brand Are these reliable? Has anyone read out the manufacturer code while burning one? ---- $300 (approximately) Various AGP 4X video cards are available for $25, but for now I'll keep the RIVA TNT PCI card with the fan blowing on it. Is AGP 4X faster than PCI anyhow? Thanks, Mark From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Jun 08 11:27:34 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19P4tC-00039B-00 for ; Sun, 08 Jun 2003 11:27:34 -0700 Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 11:27:34 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Last Year's Supercomputer Message-ID: <20030608182734.GL29461@linuxmafia.com> References: <0306061235322M.25409@isis> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <0306061235322M.25409@isis> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Rick Moen X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 18:27:35 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 6160 Lines: 144 [No offence intended to the good folks at SVLUG, but I'm not continuing your cross-post to svlug@lists.svlug.org .] Quoting Mark S Bilk (mark@cosmicpenguin.com): > Seduced by the Friday Fry's ad, I'm planning to spend > my last $300 on upgrading my pentium 133MHz/64MB computer.... Yeah, it's time, isn't it? ;-> > Below is a list of the pieces I've chosen (Fry's prices good > through Tuesday 6/10). You know, they're been offering some good deals. Bear in mind that it's difficult to even approach whole-system pricing when assembling a system from parts, though. I like to do the latter because I can control parts selection and quality, but am aware there's a substantial premium. > One problem is no memory ECC. ECC adds little to the cost > of the memory sticks, but only the $180+ motherboards support > error checking, adding about $160. Well, the good news is that Linux, like Unixes generally, will tell you very clearly that you have a RAM-defect problem through continual SIG 11 errors and segfaults. If you know what that means, then you use memtest86 to confirm your suspicions, and then you swap out the offending stick. Because Linux has this (sort of) built-in RAM-defect alarm system, I don't consider it cost-effective for that OS. The systems that get benefit from it are those that run Win32 operating systems or Novell NetWare, because, on those, you might not know you have bad RAM until you've corrupted a few months' worth of data on your backup tapes, which is a _very_ unhappy situation. > $100 AMD Athlon XP 2400+ CPU 1.93GHz, 266Mhz bus, > 128KB L1 cache, 256KB L2 cache. God knows this is a fast enough CPU, and then some. I'm sure you know that Linux is _not_ a CPU-intensive operating system, and for general computing purposes, I'm still perfectly happy with my PII and K6 systems. The general run of Intel-style hardware tends to be system-limited in other areas like RAM, I/O, video speed, and mass storage much more than it is CPU-bound, because the units are system-tuned to match the heavy CPU demand of Microsoft OSes. > ECS K7S5A Pro motherboard, SiS 735 chipset > http://www.ecsusa.com/products/k7s5a_pro.html > 5 PCI, 2 DDR -- total 1GB RAM, 266 MHz FSB, AC'97 sound, > 10/100 NIC, 4 USB 2.0, UDMA 100 IDE, 4X AGP. What stands out to me about this is the 266 MHz front-side bus (memory bus). There are much, much faster memory buses available. I remember recently seeing at _least_ 800 MHz buses. No idea what sort of price premium applies for that and the matching RAM, but traditionally that's been where the biggest difference in effective computing performance has occurred over the last decade -- that and video performance. Note that your system doesn't have a lot of RAM sockets. You'll want to select carefully whatever RAM you put in them, because expansion may be problematic. The four USB 2.0 sockets are a nice touch. The built-in ethernet is a RealTek RTL8201BL. For that, I believe you'll use the 8139too driver, though that's just a guess off the top of my head. RealTek chipsets aren't great, in general, but they're OK. The sound chipset is not known to me: C-Media CMI9738/4CH AC'97 CODEC You may or may not have an easy time with that. > 50 512MB 266MHz DDR memory stick (guessing on Fry's price) > http://www.pricewatch.com/ I personally don't feel happy with Fry's RAM. I'd get RAM (and CPU, for that matter) from SA Technology, www.satech.com . > 21 Tekram DC-315U Ultra-SCSI/SCSI-2 controller PCI card > with internal and external connectors. Very nice. > 67 Power supply - PC Power & Cooling > Turbo-Cool 350ATX/ATX12V noise 42dB(A), or > Silencer 275 ATX/ATX12V noise 34dB(a) > http://www.pcpowerandcooling.com > Can these be bought locally? Yes. Excellent choices, and your motherboard & hard drive will thank you. Central Computer, Santa Clara. > ?? Case > Will a current ATX motherboard and power supply fit in a > 1997 ATX case? Yeah, probably. I'd use a tower case for heat dissipation, but that's me. > or > 60 Enermax case and 330W power supply, four 5" & five 3" bays I'd want the PC Power & Cooling power supply. Some people become real case-selection fetishists. To date, I haven't cared much as long as it's big and has lots of room: The open space and the quantity of metal helps conduct and radiate heat. The two things that tend to cause early parts failure are heat buildup and/or stressed power supplies. By going with PC Power & Cooling for the power supply, you've prevented the latter problem and helped fix the heat problem, too, but a careful choice of system case will also help. Of late, I've also been won over by the argument that you can make a huge difference in ambient noise through careful system design. Some cases and fans help; others hurt. > 20 (after rebate) Pacific Digital Mach52 CD-RW 52x24x52 IDE > http://www.pacificdigitalcorp.com/products/522452ide.htm Gee, I wouldn't. I'd get a SCSI CD-RW from Ricoh, Yamaha, or Toshiba. Yes, I know I'm a notorious SCSI bigot. However, I keep reading people's complaints about their entire systems freezing up just because of a media problem during CD burns. This is because of the way the ide-scsi shim driver operates: If it has a problem while in I/O-addressing mode, your operating state is toast. (Also, software setup for SCSI burners is dead-easy.) > 8 50 CD-R blanks, 52X, GQ brand > Are these reliable? God only knows. But blanks are so cheap, who cares? > Various AGP 4X video cards are available for $25, but for now > I'll keep the RIVA TNT PCI card with the fan blowing on it. > Is AGP 4X faster than PCI anyhow? As always, it depends on what you're doing. Obviously, you're not one of those 3D gamer guys, or you'd have said other things entirely. ;-> Me, I'd probably just look around for a used Matrox G400 AGP. But I don't do anything video-intensive. (There's nothing wrong with your RIVA TNT, thougn.) -- Cheers, Ceterum censeo, Caldera delenda est. Rick Moen rick@linuxmafia.com From deirdre@deirdre.net Sun Jun 08 12:00:48 2003 Received: from emperor ([198.144.195.190] helo=emperor.deirdre.org ident=root) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19P5PL-0003T4-00 for ; Sun, 08 Jun 2003 12:00:47 -0700 Received: from deirdre.net (airport.deirdre.org [198.144.195.188]) h596tVrO015684; Sun, 8 Jun 2003 23:55:32 -0700 Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 11:55:29 -0700 Subject: Re: [conspire] Last Year's Supercomputer Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) To: "Mark S Bilk" From: Deirdre Saoirse Moen In-Reply-To: <0306061235322M.25409@isis> Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 19:00:48 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1354 Lines: 34 On Sunday, June 8, 2003, at 09:05 AM, Mark S Bilk wrote: > Seduced by the Friday Fry's ad, I'm planning to spend > my last $300 on upgrading my pentium 133MHz/64MB computer, Personally, I recently had to go through this when a failing motherboard and a chattering NIC made all our lives hell. I decided to opt for a full-system replacement, which included: Spiffy FIC barebones system -- see http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item- Details.asp?sku=F451-4010 P4 (though, had I really been paying attention, I could have gotten a cheaper, and cooler, Celeron) Ram (I opted for 256MB because I don't use it as a desktop system and that's really the smallest they had). Total price was a hair higher, but I got a very cute little system that had replaced every possible failing component in one fell swoop (we'd separately determined the SCSI card was OK). So far, even though I was worried about heat, it has worked like a champ. Ideally, I'd like a significantly shorter SCSI cable to allow better airflow. I got it all at Fry's. Oh, and it has a blue light and transparent sides, so it acts as a night light. -- _Deirdre http://deirdre.net "Cannot run out of time. There is infinite time. You are finite. Zathras is finite. This....is wrong tool." -- Zathras From moseley@hank.org Sun Jun 08 12:11:02 2003 Received: from mardy.hank.org ([63.205.225.170] helo=mardy) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19P5ZF-0003e1-00 for ; Sun, 08 Jun 2003 12:11:01 -0700 Received: from bumby ([192.168.1.2] helo=bumby.hank.org) by mardy with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19P5UD-0007dF-00; Sun, 08 Jun 2003 12:05:49 -0700 Received: from moseley by bumby.hank.org with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19P5U5-0002Dz-00; Sun, 08 Jun 2003 12:05:41 -0700 Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 12:05:41 -0700 To: Mark S Bilk Subject: Re: [conspire] Last Year's Supercomputer Message-ID: <20030608190541.GB7771@hank.org> References: <0306061235322M.25409@isis> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <0306061235322M.25409@isis> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Bill Moseley cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com cc: SVLUG List X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 19:11:02 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 750 Lines: 24 On Sun, Jun 08, 2003 at 09:05:50AM -0700, Mark S Bilk wrote: > $100 AMD Athlon XP 2400+ CPU 1.93GHz, 266Mhz bus, I've got a XP 1800+ and a P4 2.4 sitting right next to each other with otherwise the same hardware (well, the P4 has an extra 80GB drive). I'm amazed how much more heat the Athlon produces. Just something to think about. I think I read the newer Athlons produce less heat, but I don't have any references for that -- so something you might look up if you care about such things. I've been using Zalman Flower CPU coolers. I'm really trying to cut down on noise. I'm also interested in trying the VIA C3 (I think Fry's has $200 VIA C3 systems) and set up diskless with LTSP just for fun. -- Bill Moseley moseley@hank.org From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Jun 08 20:32:05 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19PDO9-0001QF-00 for ; Sun, 08 Jun 2003 20:32:05 -0700 Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 20:32:05 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Last Year's Supercomputer Message-ID: <20030609033205.GQ29461@linuxmafia.com> References: <0306061235322M.25409@isis> <20030608190541.GB7771@hank.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030608190541.GB7771@hank.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Rick Moen X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 03:32:06 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1964 Lines: 42 [Cutting distribution again to just this list:] Quoting Bill Moseley (moseley@hank.org): > I've got a XP 1800+ and a P4 2.4 sitting right next to each other with > otherwise the same hardware (well, the P4 has an extra 80GB drive). I'm > amazed how much more heat the Athlon produces. Just something to think > about. What he said. The guys with the gonzo high-powered-CPU systems are also those who can fry eggs on their system cases and/or have hearing loss from all the damned noise. Deirdre's right about her nice little P4 and how the Celeron option would have been even a little cooler and quieter. Go that route and you'll have the last laugh over the 3D guys with their OpenGL and frames per second / bandwidth fixations, because your system will neither sound like a jet engine nor self-destruct. > I've been using Zalman Flower CPU coolers. I'm really trying to > cut down on noise. Yeah. It's funny, but the old VA Linux 2U PIII-Katmai/500 in the living room (the server for linuxmafia.com) has seemed noiser as other systems in the house have gotten quieter over the years. These days, I mostly do satellite computing via my 802.11b-equipped laptop, and the relative silence is a blessing that grows on you. It's kind of like the peace of mind that quality parts (Mushkin RAM, Antec cases, PC Power & Cooling power supplies, SCSI mass storage) get you: People will try to tell you it's not cost-effective, but you get to just smile when they have problems and you don't. Of course, if you're doing 3D rendering, then you need either NVidia (w/proprietary drivers) or ATI video plus serious CPU power. Ditto on the latter for some other applications like scientific computing. But if those sorts of exceptional situations apply, you already know. -- Cheers, I've been suffering death by PowerPoint, recently. Rick Moen -- Huw Davies rick@linuxmafia.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Mon Jun 09 00:41:01 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19PHH3-0004RR-00 for ; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 00:41:01 -0700 Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 00:41:01 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Last Year's Supercomputer Message-ID: <20030609074100.GS29461@linuxmafia.com> References: <0306061235322M.25409@isis> <20030608182734.GL29461@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030608182734.GL29461@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 07:41:02 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 9500 Lines: 199 Mark, I was still a little groggy, when I wrote that post (and in a hurry to get out the door. Commenting on my own post: > You know, they're been offering some good deals. Bear in mind that it's > difficult to even approach whole-system pricing when assembling a system > from parts, though. I like to do the latter because I can control parts > selection and quality, but am aware there's a substantial premium. What I mean is: If you were quoting Fry's pricing for a pile of individual components, please be aware that you can typically do a _whole_ lot better on pricing if you buy one of their assembled systems. Sometimes, the latter work out better even if you end up having to extract, discard, and replace a few crappy components. > Well, the good news is that Linux, like Unixes generally, will tell you > very clearly that you have a RAM-defect problem through continual SIG 11 > errors and segfaults. If you know what that means, then you use > memtest86 to confirm your suspicions, and then you swap out the > offending stick. Because Linux has this (sort of) built-in RAM-defect > alarm system, I don't consider it cost-effective for that OS. By "it", I meant ECC: ECC is mostly a crutch for poor bastards stuck on NT, who need it to warn them that their data are turning to mush. You're on Linux, so save your money: Put the RAM through initial burn-in on memtest86 for at least 24 hours, and you'll be fine. If you ever start getting SIG11s or frequent segfaults, that's Linux telling you to wake up because you've developed a RAM (or CPU) problem. Reminds me of a story: When I assembled my K6/233 tower system (still running perfectly, never any parts failures, very cool, PC Power & Cooling Turbocool -- _not_ a coincidence!), I used a cheapo FIC PA-2007 motherboard and RAM/CPU bought separately from SA Technology. For the K6, I also got a big-kahunga heat sink with a fan on top that uses ball bearings instead of the standard, noisy, failure-prone sleeve bearings. As RAM, I got SDRAM _rated for CAS2 operation_ at 100 MHz, which was the way you got extra-good performance at that time. (CAS = column-access strobe. I mean that memory access could be set to require only two CAS cycles, instead of the standard three.) Anyhow, I banged everything together. It _seemed_ to work fine. The big tower case, low-heat-output CPU, and major cooling capacity meant that the thing ran very cool and reasonably quiet even with the two very fast IBM 10,000 RPM SCSI hard drives. As was my custom, I started compiling a kernel after a bit. The compile errored out with a SIG11. Hmm. Tried again. Errored out even faster, and at a different point in the compile. Odd. Do I have bad RAM? Shut down and re-seated the RAM. Went downstairs to the CoffeeNet for coffee. Came back, fired up, ran the compile. No problems. Ran the compile again: SIG11. Ran it again: SIG11 at a different place. Ran it with only half the RAM: Same symptoms. Ran it with the other half: Same. Didn't seem to be a RAM problem(?). Slept on the problem. Woke up, fired up the machine, ran a compile: No problem. Ran it again: No problem. Ran it a third time: SIG11. Ran it again: Same error, different spot. Pondered the problem for a bit: It seemed as if the error was kicking in only after the system reached heat equilibrium, but not during the initial 30 minutes of operation when the system was still stone-cold. But that didn't make much sense: I opened up the case and re-verified that the system really _was_ an engineer's dream of conservative design, and that even the 10,000 RPM drives were running cool. I drove down from San Francisco to the Palo Alto Fry's and bought both the heat-conductive pads you can sandwich between CPUs and their heat sinks _and_ the thermal paste you can use instead. I was going to make double-sure that I had good contact, there, before taking the CPU back to SA Technology and looking like an idiot if it turned out to be perfectly OK. I took the heat sink off the CPU, cleaned both off, put paste on them and pressed them together. For some reason, perhaps on account of some bell ringing in my unconscious mind, a few minutes later I pulled them apart again to look at the two pieces more closely. And swore. The motherboard socket for the K6 has a square outline, and the pins have a square pattern, with one corner of the CPU's pin-layout being different so you won't destroy it by putting it in the wrong way. When you put the CPU into the socket, if you aren't looking too closely, you think: square socket, square CPU with a keyed feature to keep you from screwing up, square heatsink/fan assembly. 1, 2, 3 -- done. Foolproof. (Well, no.) The _top_ surface of the CPU turned out to have a heatsink-contact surface that extended only across maybe 70% of the lateral distance, and the other 30% was sunk down lower. --------------------- | | | | | | | | | | | | | contact | | | surface | | | | | | | | --------------------- I'd accidentally rotated the heatsink 180 degrees, so that _its_ contact surface was staggered over to the right-hand-side: --------------------- | | | | | | | | | | | | | | contact | | | surface | | | | | | | --------------------- Only a little strip in the middle was actually touching, so all the other thermal paste was still protruding up into the air, un-squashed. Most of the CPU top surface was getting _zero_ help with cooling, and instead was radiating out into a nice warm, insulating air pocket under the heatsink. If this had been an Athlon or P4 Coppermine, the CPU probably would have committed seppuku, but the K6 was completely undamaged and has been happily cranking away ever since. But that experience confirmed me in my prejudice that a cool CPU (like a cool system generally) is much, much, much to be preferred over one that runs hot and needs heroic measures like huge amounts of forced air flow to stave off disaster. Those other ones may be faster -- but usually (for most machine roles) don't even manifest that speed in ways you especially care about. You wrote: > 21 Tekram DC-315U Ultra-SCSI/SCSI-2 controller PCI card > with internal and external connectors. That's certainly inexpensive. I'm a little unclear what you're using it for, since you didn't include any SCSI components -- nor any hard drives of any sort, actually. The spec sheet at tekram.com claims it's based on a Tekram S1040 chipset -- which is unusual, since Tekram SCSI cards are best-known as inexpensive, cost-effective implementations of good ol' LSI / Symbios / NCR chipsets such as the 53C810, 53C815, 53C875, 53C895, and such. I also notice it has _no BIOS_, which has two consequences: (1) Most likely, Linux will not be able to auto-probe the card. Instead, you'll have to tell the booting kernel about it via command-line parameters in your lilo or GRUB configuration. (2) You won't be able to _boot_ from SCSI devices, period. The "U" in the model number without a "W" to go with it means it's so-called "ultra-SCSI" without a wide data path. So, you have an 8-bit = 1 byte data path (50-pin connectors), capable of 20 MB/sec transfers across the SCSI bus. That's not very high, these days. Furthermore and (along with the 8-bit data path) more of a problem for long-term usability, the card doesn't support LVD (low-voltage differential) operation, which puts terrible limits on total chain length and (consequently) the number of devices that can reliably operate on the chain. Tekram does have other models that _can_ support LVD and wide (2 byte wide) SCSI, such as the DC-390U2B, which uses the tried-and-true LSI/Symbios 53C895 chipset. It also supports up to 40 MHz transfers across the SCSI bus, which, with the 2 byte wide data path, means it'll do 80 MB/sec, maximum. So: I have no idea _why_ you're buying a SCSI card for a system with no SCSI devices listed -- but I'd pay $70 more for something like the DC-390U2B instead of sinking $21 into something like the DC-315U, whose drawbacks and limitations over the long term would just frustrate me. I'd get a long-term good SCSI card even if my only current use for it were driving a flat-bed scanner, just so it would work well in other roles, later. If you're using ATA ("IDE"), and have more than one hard drive, for heaven's sake make sure you put them on different channels. No matter which type you use, _if_ you're buying new hard drives, consider ones that spin at fairly high rotational speeds such as 10,000 or 15,000 RPM, since that addresses one of the fundamental limiting factors on hard drive performance. Beware, of course, of the downside: heat buildup. I always _really_ like having two physical hard drives, as well, in order to address the other fundamental limiting factor, namely seek time -- and make a point of having a swap partition on each of them. I'm guessing that you're intending to carry forward your hard drive(s), video card, keyboard, mouse, and monitor. Fair enough. I would, too. -- Cheers, I've been suffering death by PowerPoint, recently. Rick Moen -- Huw Davies rick@linuxmafia.com From markbilk@attbi.com Mon Jun 09 02:10:45 2003 Received: from rwcrmhc11.attbi.com ([204.127.198.35]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19PIfs-0005gF-00 for ; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 02:10:44 -0700 Received: from isis (12-234-96-106.client.attbi.com[12.234.96.106](untrusted sender)) by attbi.com (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <2003060909050101300akkp8e>; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 09:05:01 +0000 From: "Mark S Bilk" To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Last Year's Supercomputer Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 02:01:37 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0306090205002Z.25409@isis> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 09:10:45 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 4217 Lines: 91 In-Reply-To: <20030609033205.GQ29461@linuxmafia.com>; from rick@linuxmafia.com on Sun, Jun 08, 2003 at 08:32:05PM -0700 The usual technique for cooling is to blow a lot of air through the case in order to get a small fraction of it flowing past the few parts that get very hot. This requires powerful, noisy fans. My solution is to hang a small fan right up against each hot device. I get them from Halte[k|d] -- 6cm x 6cm, 12V, 1watt, about $7, absolutely silent. I have one blowing on the Riva TNT graphic card, one on the soon-to-be-retired swap drive, and one on the two main 3.5" drives that are stacked only 1/8" apart. They're hung with string from the roll I got at a Linux Expo from the Twine project! The drives are barely above ambient, and you can press your finger on the back side of the Riva board indefinitely, which formerly would have caused a second-degree burn. I haven't had the side panel on the case for years, after feeling everything (while grounding my other hand to the case!) and making sure nothing was getting too hot. The power supply fan still blows air across the CPU and memory, and except for the Riva, none of the cards produces much heat. I like the funky look -- it's like that guy's computer in the movie "Pi". http://www.imdb.com/Title?0138704 Of course it's also important to blow out all the cat crud once a week. I happen to use these Sanford "eraser sticks" (like a fat mechanical pencil with a rubber rod instead of the "lead"), and it turns out that the empty barrel and tip of one is perfect for blowing a very concentrated stream of air into the CPU fan/ heatsink to clean out the cat dust (and to test that the fan is working -- the beam of air makes a hum when it hits the moving blades). On the other hand one of those wire strippers shaped like a flattened pair of pliers, with two triangular notches that come together, is the ideal tool for trimming a cat's claws. Thus the Great Circle Of Life is complete. On Sun, Jun 08, 2003 at 08:32:05PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: >[Cutting distribution again to just this list:] > >Quoting Bill Moseley (moseley@hank.org): > >> I've got a XP 1800+ and a P4 2.4 sitting right next to each other with >> otherwise the same hardware (well, the P4 has an extra 80GB drive). I'm >> amazed how much more heat the Athlon produces. Just something to think >> about. > >What he said. > >The guys with the gonzo high-powered-CPU systems are also those who >can fry eggs on their system cases and/or have hearing loss from all >the damned noise. Deirdre's right about her nice little P4 and how the >Celeron option would have been even a little cooler and quieter. Go >that route and you'll have the last laugh over the 3D guys with their >OpenGL and frames per second / bandwidth fixations, because your system >will neither sound like a jet engine nor self-destruct. > >> I've been using Zalman Flower CPU coolers. I'm really trying to >> cut down on noise. > >Yeah. It's funny, but the old VA Linux 2U PIII-Katmai/500 in the living >room (the server for linuxmafia.com) has seemed noiser as other systems >in the house have gotten quieter over the years. These days, I mostly >do satellite computing via my 802.11b-equipped laptop, and the relative >silence is a blessing that grows on you. > >It's kind of like the peace of mind that quality parts (Mushkin RAM, >Antec cases, PC Power & Cooling power supplies, SCSI mass storage) get >you: People will try to tell you it's not cost-effective, but you get >to just smile when they have problems and you don't. > >Of course, if you're doing 3D rendering, then you need either NVidia >(w/proprietary drivers) or ATI video plus serious CPU power. Ditto on >the latter for some other applications like scientific computing. But >if those sorts of exceptional situations apply, you already know. > >-- >Cheers, I've been suffering death by PowerPoint, recently. >Rick Moen -- Huw Davies >rick@linuxmafia.com > >_______________________________________________ >conspire mailing list >conspire@linuxmafia.com >http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire From rick@linuxmafia.com Mon Jun 09 02:48:32 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19PJGR-00063R-00 for ; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 02:48:31 -0700 Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 02:48:31 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Last Year's Supercomputer Message-ID: <20030609094831.GV29461@linuxmafia.com> References: <0306090205002Z.25409@isis> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <0306090205002Z.25409@isis> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Rick Moen X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 09:48:32 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 3693 Lines: 72 Quoting Mark S Bilk (mark@cosmicpenguin.com): > The usual technique for cooling is to blow a lot of air through > the case in order to get a small fraction of it flowing past > the few parts that get very hot. This requires powerful, noisy > fans. > > My solution is to hang a small fan right up against each hot > device. I get them from Halte[k|d] -- 6cm x 6cm, 12V, 1watt, > about $7, absolutely silent. See, that's good, but I think one can do better. With careful system design and parts selection, it's possible to do mostly passive cooling, where conduction via adjacent metal, convection of air through a spacious case, and scrupulous spacing out of the problem components keeps things from overheating. I don't know about you, but I'd feel really dumb replacing a $200 part (say, your pride-and-joy large hard drive) just because a $7 fan failed. Just before the dot-com crash, we had an example of forced-air cooling run amok that I regard as an excellent cautionary tale. My then-employer was, I believe, the first firm to release a dual-Athlon rack-mount 2U server system. It drew ridiculous amounts of electical power, almost all of which of course eventually got radiated out as heat. To prevent it from melting down, a hell of a lot of air got driven through the chassis from front to back, and the case itself was of careful (patented) design to maximise the benefit of all that airflow. We sold clusters of those damned things for scientific computing, and the sorts of labs that bought them had to bring in extra-heavy-duty power feeds for them -- not to mention air conditioning. And the din they put out was just unbelievable! I wouldn't have taken one on a bet, and I'll bet that just the AC power and air conditioning bills for a cluster of them would break the bank. I wonder if they're still in use, anywhere? So, anyway, the aforementioned K6 tower is my preferred sort of system. It's relatively quiet, and probably _could_ get by on almost entirely passive cooling, because of the huge case and large amounts of spacing between the heat-producing components (which, on reflection, means mostly the two hard drives). I have a couple of case fans on the belt-and-suspenders theory. It would be _quieter_ without them, and could probably survive without them and with a PC Power & Cooling Silencer instead of the big-ass TurboCool. But it's relatively quiet and runs very cool, while giving me the confidence that it would remain OK even if a couple of the fans seized up. > I have one blowing on the Riva TNT graphic card, one on the > soon-to-be-retired swap drive, and one on the two main 3.5" drives > that are stacked only 1/8" apart. See, that bit about 1/8" spacing sounds bad, to me. I'd stretch out the spacing a lot, if possible. If the case didn't permit that, I'd shitcan the case and get a bigger one. In fact, that's exactly what I _did_ do, to get the case the K6 now resides in. I'm not in any way saying you haven't done a great job. What matters is results, and you say it runs cool. That counts as success. However, you've achieved that at the cost of making the cooling reliant on a bunch of $7 fans. I get greater warm-fuzzies from removing that reliance, is all I'm saying. > I haven't had the side panel on the case for years.... Most cases are actually designed so that they do effective air flow only with the case closed. You may be impairing heat control, by operating it that way. -- Cheers, "Don't use Outlook. Outlook is really just a security Rick Moen hole with a small e-mail client attached to it." rick@linuxmafia.com -- Brian Trosko in r.a.sf.w.r-j From star@starshine.org Mon Jun 09 07:18:39 2003 Received: from antares.starshine.org ([216.240.40.177] helo=mx.starshine.org ident=postfix) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19PNTn-000198-00; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 07:18:36 -0700 Received: from gemini.starshine.org (gemini.starshine.org [216.240.40.169]) by mx.starshine.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F69739BA; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 07:13:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gemini.starshine.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 563DD140C8; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 02:18:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 02:18:00 -0700 To: Rick Moen Subject: Re: [conspire] Last Year's Supercomputer Message-ID: <20030609091800.GC11239@starshine.org> References: <0306061235322M.25409@isis> <20030608182734.GL29461@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030608182734.GL29461@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: star@starshine.org (Heather Stern) cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 14:18:39 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 12526 Lines: 313 > > Seduced by the Friday Fry's ad, I'm planning to spend > > my last $300 on upgrading my pentium 133MHz/64MB computer.... > > Yeah, it's time, isn't it? ;-> I usually upgrade these sorts of systems by leaving K and Gnome out of the distro I install on them. Funny how much faster than MSwin they seem then. But yes :) >> [RAM pricing] > [good RAM, bad RAM, Linux' behavior about same] The fact that Linux has means to work around iffy RAM, and can be patched to actually avoid really bad spots in it, doesn't really excuse buying iffy RAM unless you're close to broke. That marvelous computer described below will end up bottlenecked on RAM most of the time. ECC RAM may actually be slightly slower in some circumstances - and if you think you'll encounter those, then it's your call whether speed or perfection-of-bits is most important to you. As Rick says, the worst danger is some sort of slow corruption that sinks into a database or something, leaving you with a queasy feeling and bad backups later. > > $100 AMD Athlon XP 2400+ CPU 1.93GHz, 266Mhz bus, > > 128KB L1 cache, 256KB L2 cache. > > God knows this is a fast enough CPU, and then some. I'm sure you know > that Linux is _not_ a CPU-intensive operating system, and for general > computing purposes, I'm still perfectly happy with my PII and K6 systems. > The general run of Intel-style hardware tends to be system-limited in > other areas like RAM, I/O, video speed, and mass storage much more than > it is CPU-bound, because the units are system-tuned to match the heavy > CPU demand of Microsoft OSes. What I refer to one one of my older systems as "co processor'd up the wazoo". Yes, this philosophy can work wonders. Scattering your workload across multiple SCSI spindles can allow the SCSI controller to put drives in disconnected mode and take advantage of a few extra-tiny CPUs more. Havign a way-cool enough video processor, in addition to just dealing with that fussy GL stuff for you, can make a number of video uses feel hyperfast - even if the CPU is still crunching away under the hood, running its little hamster self into a daze. For many users the *appearance* of speed is weirdly, more important than clock time. RAM bottlenecks mentioned above. If you plan to print, make sure your parallel port is up to snuff (not hard) or get a networked printer (network speeds are often faster, esp. on a private network, and the smart printer is another CPU to aid you). Also, careful software configuration may allow you to free even more CPU, but swap is still swap. If you'll be doing a lot, you'll want RAM to bear the context switches, not your hard disk :) Finally, consider what you'll be doing with it. Grpahic arts really does need some CPU oomph, and lots of RAM, because photographic work takes bunches of memory. Dev work, well, it varies, but my "slow" P550 with 512M RAM (yeah, I know, it's middle-aged and frumpy now ;P) crunched the LNX-BBC fulle build at the same overall speed as a much faster CPU (900 I think) with less RAM (128 M). I assume in matters of scale that this CPU/memory trade off will continue to apply. I've also been advised that while a dual CPU setup helps builds nicely - as the build crunching along gets tossed to the second and "normal" operating functions stay on CPU 0, reducing an internal bottleneck within Linux - that more CPUs than this isn't worth much unless you're working on things that really use the split nature. Finally, I've heard baaaad things can happen to people who get dual CPUs without getting them at the same time - apparently they are far better behaved as twins. I approve of a fast CPU but wonder if it'll run hotter (temperature wise) without giving you the bang for your buck. > > ECS K7S5A Pro motherboard, SiS 735 chipset > > http://www.ecsusa.com/products/k7s5a_pro.html > > 5 PCI, 2 DDR -- Has it enough IRQs to go around all the goodies you might plug into it, or will only about 4 of these slots be useful at a time? >> total 1GB RAM, yum. >> 266 MHz FSB, > [There are much faster memory buses available] Hmmm :/ If a motherboard has a seperate, faster memory bus from a reasonably fast PCI bus does this make notable improvement? (I'm not sure which this represents, or whether it's combined) >> AC'97 sound, ok, but you'll want better details on the chipset than that. Lots of vendors use that codec. [moved] > The sound chipset is not known to me: C-Media CMI9738/4CH AC'97 CODEC > You may or may not have an easy time with that. I haven't heard of it either, though this may not mean much - usually I'm soaked in laptop discussions, and that doesn't sound like a low power model. >> 10/100 NIC, Which one? [moved up] > The built-in ethernet is a RealTek RTL8201BL. For that, I believe > you'll use the 8139too driver, though that's just a guess off the top of > my head. RealTek chipsets aren't great, in general, but they're OK. Oh. Sigh. In the case of any motherboards with "really cool" integrated components, I always find myself wondering if their BIOS or some jumper settings allow turning them off. Jumpers you can learn from the little book with the motherboard. As for BIOS usually nothing but booting one up can tell you, sadly. >> 4 USB 2.0, yum. >> UDMA 100 IDE, which chipset? >> 4X AGP. normal these days. > [...] No idea what sort of price > premium applies for that and the matching RAM, but traditionally that's > been where the biggest difference in effective computing performance has > occurred over the last decade -- that and video performance. Video performance is often about memory speeds within the videocard, too. > Note that your system doesn't have a lot of RAM sockets. You'll want to > select carefully whatever RAM you put in them, because expansion may > be problematic. Check if you're going to be forced to use low-height RAM, too. > > 50 512MB 266MHz DDR memory stick (guessing on Fry's price) > > http://www.pricewatch.com/ > > I personally don't feel happy with Fry's RAM. I'd get RAM (and CPU, for > that matter) from SA Technology, www.satech.com . Fry's prices for these two parts usually suck, but they often have some of the off varieties of RAM in stock. Fry's, the fast food of computer parts. I'd like a burger with that. (yes, you can stuff this in your fave quotes file if you like ;> ) [Me too on the Tekram SCSI looking like good stuff] > > 67 Power supply - PC Power & Cooling > > Turbo-Cool 350ATX/ATX12V noise 42dB(A), or > > Silencer 275 ATX/ATX12V noise 34dB(a) > > http://www.pcpowerandcooling.com > > Can these be bought locally? > > Yes. Excellent choices, and your motherboard & hard drive will thank > you. Central Computer, Santa Clara. :) (she says, scribbling it into a notepad for a pal of mine upping his power supply) > > ?? Case > > Will a current ATX motherboard and power supply fit in a > > 1997 ATX case? > > Yeah, probably. I'd use a tower case for heat dissipation, but that's > me. Just make sure if you get a new case to look at all its features, not just the bubblegum looks they're starting to have these days. > > or > > 60 Enermax case and 330W power supply, four 5" & five 3" bays > > I'd want the PC Power & Cooling power supply. 330 W isn't worth much on a hotter system anyway. The problems you can cause yourself by giving the system only barely enough power instead of plenty-and-to-spare cause just as many heisenbugs as the aforementioned poor quality RAM. Except that they have a better chance of leaving behind permanent damage to underpowered drives. This applies to old systems as well as new, and *especially* to reallly old systems. I didn't realize this until I swapped out 3 pre-historic drives for a merely wimpy old one and listened to the power supply stop whining to keep up. So keeping it over-powered will probably help silence the cabinet, too. Of all the parts you can dream of replacing with better someday, power is a serious pain to swap out, and you'd really rather get to ignore it for years on end. Get a decent power supply at the get-go. > but a careful choice of system case will also help. For my happy desktop and dev station, I got a case which has a built in space for an extra fan. The fact that this spare fan sounds like a jet engine when plugged in is a replaceable feature; the shape of the case being prepped already isn't. > > 20 (after rebate) Pacific Digital Mach52 CD-RW 52x24x52 IDE > > http://www.pacificdigitalcorp.com/products/522452ide.htm > > Gee, I wouldn't. I'd get a SCSI CD-RW from Ricoh, Yamaha, or Toshiba. > Yes, I know I'm a notorious SCSI bigot. However, I keep reading > people's complaints about their entire systems freezing up just because > of a media problem during CD burns. This is because of the way the > ide-scsi shim driver operates: If it has a problem while in > I/O-addressing mode, your operating state is toast. (Also, software > setup for SCSI burners is dead-easy.) In the land of IDE burners I have to say the following - 0) append="hdc=ide-scsi" {modprobe or modutils or modules.conf} ide-scsi sg cdrecord -scanbus to learn where it is set a file in /etc/defaults to feed cdrecord all that obvious stuff 1) the immed flag can really help but I hope you have a brand that doesn't need it to stay well behaved. the immed flag does a fast return on a number of common features which reduces the I/O window you could get trapped in. 1.a) if you do get trapped be patient; unlike some other kinds of device wedging, CDs have been known to return after 8 to 10 minutes. 2) my vaguely recently purchased burner is a GCE-8400N - merely 40x but I'm very happy with it. 3) Don't buy Memorex media. It sucks asteroids through nanotubes. > > 8 50 CD-R blanks, 52X, GQ brand > > Are these reliable? > > God only knows. But blanks are so cheap, who cares? These are an OK brand. I use Phillips. If you plan to play with minidiscs or bizcard media bear in mind that they aren't rated for nearly this good. I burn my favorite minirounds at about 12x, but 40x makes coasters. > > Various AGP 4X video cards are available for $25, but for now > > I'll keep the RIVA TNT PCI card with the fan blowing on it. RIVA has its headaches, but if you're used to them, it's your baby. I have numerous video cards which have outlasted the rest of their system package. > > Is AGP 4X faster than PCI anyhow? It's a memory bus thing, so see the above comments about RAM bottlenecking for a start. AGP is a means to allow cards to do bulk memory transfers, so you can think of it as vaguely analogous to "burst mode" features that real SCSI or UDMA/IDE offer over a boring old IDE bus. People who geek out about AGP wouldn't be asking about "4x" - which is normal nowadays - they'd be asking about its memory aperture. This can be learned in its BIOS, if you get a chance to see the motherboard in a machine and turned on. > As always, it depends on what you're doing. Obviously, you're not one > of those 3D gamer guys, or you'd have said other things entirely. ;-> > > Me, I'd probably just look around for a used Matrox G400 AGP. But I > don't do anything video-intensive. (There's nothing wrong with your > RIVA TNT, thougn.) Matrox are well behaved video beasties. I'm afraid I had to suck up to an ATI Radeon to handle my powerful monitor - because it has a DVI connector. An increasing number of games want video cards with 128 MB of RAM. Yowza. I settled for merely 64 MB and it works fine for me - and remember, I said I'm into graphics. Standard system memory is handling things just fine. What you definitely need is enough total bytes to cover your expected pixel size times color depth, and a little bit of room to spare for textures storage. X will tell you if you haven't got enough video memory to do what you asked, and downgrade the pixel width/height to fit within what your card can do. Finer quality video cards have a very wide dotclock range. Sadly this is another one of those qualities that's easy to ask the card in a running system (well, kindasorta easy) and may or may not be in its docs. . | . Heather Stern | star@starshine.org --->*<--- Starshine Technical Services - * - consulting@starshine.org ' | ` Sysadmin Support and Training | (800) 938-4078 From moseley@hank.org Mon Jun 09 07:33:39 2003 Received: from mardy.hank.org ([63.205.225.170] helo=mardy) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19PNiM-0001Og-00 for ; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 07:33:38 -0700 Received: from laptop ([192.168.1.3] helo=laptop.hank.org) by mardy with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19PNdI-0003Gn-00 for ; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 07:28:24 -0700 Received: from moseley by laptop.hank.org with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19PNdH-0000C6-00 for ; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 07:28:23 -0700 Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 07:28:23 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Last Year's Supercomputer Message-ID: <20030609142823.GA506@hank.org> References: <0306061235322M.25409@isis> <20030608182734.GL29461@linuxmafia.com> <20030609074100.GS29461@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030609074100.GS29461@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: moseley@hank.org X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 14:33:39 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 420 Lines: 17 On Mon, Jun 09, 2003 at 12:41:01AM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: > > The _top_ surface of the CPU turned out to have a heatsink-contact > surface that extended only across maybe 70% of the lateral distance, and > the other 30% was sunk down lower. VIA has a somewhat humorous movie about heatsinks: http://ads.viaarena.com/c3/thermals.zip from page http://www.viaarena.com/?PageID=4 -- Bill Moseley moseley@hank.org From markbilk@attbi.com Mon Jun 09 08:14:03 2003 Received: from sccrmhc11.attbi.com ([204.127.202.55]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19POLT-0001x4-00 for ; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 08:14:03 -0700 Received: from isis (12-234-96-106.client.attbi.com[12.234.96.106](untrusted sender)) by attbi.com (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <20030609150818011003kfnke>; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 15:08:18 +0000 From: "Mark S Bilk" To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Last Year's Supercomputer Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 08:06:28 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <03060908081130.25409@isis> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 15:14:03 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 4120 Lines: 91 In-Reply-To: <20030609074100.GS29461@linuxmafia.com>; from rick@linuxmafia.com on Mon, Jun 09, 2003 at 12:41:01AM -0700 Organization: http://www.cosmicpenguin.com On Mon, Jun 09, 2003 at 12:41:01AM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: >Mark, I was still a little groggy, when I wrote that post (and in a >hurry to get out the door. Commenting on my own post: > >> You know, they're been offering some good deals. Bear in mind that it's >> difficult to even approach whole-system pricing when assembling a system >> from parts, though. I like to do the latter because I can control parts >> selection and quality, but am aware there's a substantial premium. > >What I mean is: If you were quoting Fry's pricing for a pile of >individual components, please be aware that you can typically do a >_whole_ lot better on pricing if you buy one of their assembled systems. >Sometimes, the latter work out better even if you end up having to >extract, discard, and replace a few crappy components. I'll keep that in mind. I'm now leaning toward an nForce2 motherboard and an Athlon XP 2500+ or 2800+ CPU, which has a 333MHz bus instead of 266, and 512KB of L2 cache instead of 256K. I already have a lot of components that will transfer over, so paying for crappy ones might even the score. >> Well, the good news is that Linux, like Unixes generally, will tell you >> very clearly that you have a RAM-defect problem through continual SIG 11 >> errors and segfaults. If you know what that means, then you use >> memtest86 to confirm your suspicions, and then you swap out the >> offending stick. Because Linux has this (sort of) built-in RAM-defect >> alarm system, I don't consider it cost-effective for that OS. > >By "it", I meant ECC: ECC is mostly a crutch for poor bastards stuck on >NT, who need it to warn them that their data are turning to mush. >You're on Linux, so save your money: Put the RAM through initial >burn-in on memtest86 for at least 24 hours, and you'll be fine. If you >ever start getting SIG11s or frequent segfaults, that's Linux telling >you to wake up because you've developed a RAM (or CPU) problem. Good; that's comforting. >But that experience confirmed me in my prejudice that a cool CPU >(like a cool system generally) is much, much, much to be preferred over >one that runs hot and needs heroic measures like huge amounts of forced >air flow to stave off disaster. Those other ones may be faster -- but >usually (for most machine roles) don't even manifest that speed in ways >you especially care about. I may be getting into multimedia, and I also want very fast rendering of web pages, pdf files, and other such stuff that's currently frustrating. AMD lists the max power dissipation of their CPUs in the 2500+ range as 70 watts. If an Intel CPU is half that, the difference is 35 watts, which isn't all that much as far as causing discomfort to a person nearby (my computer sort of has to sit up on my desk next to me). Is the fan/heatsink that comes with the boxed Athlon XP a good one? >You wrote: > >> 21 Tekram DC-315U Ultra-SCSI/SCSI-2 controller PCI card >> with internal and external connectors. > >That's certainly inexpensive. I'm a little unclear what you're using it >for, since you didn't include any SCSI components -- nor any hard drives >of any sort, actually. Exabyte tape; it's plenty fast for that. >So: I have no idea _why_ you're buying a SCSI card for a system with no >SCSI devices listed -- but I'd pay $70 more for something like the >DC-390U2B instead of sinking $21 into something like the DC-315U, whose >drawbacks and limitations over the long term would just frustrate me. > >I'd get a long-term good SCSI card even if my only current use for it >were driving a flat-bed scanner, just so it would work well in other >roles, later. Good idea, but can't afford it. >I'm guessing that you're intending to carry forward your hard drive(s), >video card, keyboard, mouse, and monitor. Fair enough. I would, too. Yes. Thanks for your help! And also to the others who wrote. I've been making major changes due to this advice! Mark From markbilk@attbi.com Mon Jun 09 08:52:37 2003 Received: from rwcrmhc51.attbi.com ([204.127.198.38]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19POwn-0002JA-00 for ; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 08:52:37 -0700 Received: from isis (12-234-96-106.client.attbi.com[12.234.96.106]) by attbi.com (rwcrmhc51) with SMTP id <200306091546490510084mnae>; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 15:46:49 +0000 From: "Mark S Bilk" To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Last Year's Supercomputer Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 08:34:58 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <03060908464631.25409@isis> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 15:52:38 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 5250 Lines: 116 In-Reply-To: <20030609094831.GV29461@linuxmafia.com>; from rick@linuxmafia.com on Mon, Jun 09, 2003 at 02:48:31AM -0700 On Mon, Jun 09, 2003 at 02:48:31AM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: >Quoting Mark S Bilk (mark@cosmicpenguin.com): > >> The usual technique for cooling is to blow a lot of air through >> the case in order to get a small fraction of it flowing past >> the few parts that get very hot. This requires powerful, noisy >> fans. >> >> My solution is to hang a small fan right up against each hot >> device. I get them from Halte[k|d] -- 6cm x 6cm, 12V, 1watt, >> about $7, absolutely silent. > >See, that's good, but I think one can do better. With careful system >design and parts selection, it's possible to do mostly passive cooling, >where conduction via adjacent metal, convection of air through a >spacious case, and scrupulous spacing out of the problem components >keeps things from overheating. I don't know about you, but I'd feel >really dumb replacing a $200 part (say, your pride-and-joy large hard >drive) just because a $7 fan failed. True, but that's always the case with the CPU heatsink fan. Well, I guess there are thermal sensors these days that might save the chip. OK, I guess I should get a full-size tower. It will only take up another inch or two of width on my desk, and then I can space the disk drives as you say. If the cpu's fan seizes up and it melts, I'm only out $100, and no data lost, as from a dead disk. And I really don't want to reuse the old mini-tower, because it will still be a functioning system, if I put the video card back in, or get a $10 one, and I have two 4G used SCSI drives that I bought for swap service. With both in there it will have plenty of disk for a functioning system. Who knows, it might come in handy some day, and it would be a shame to destroy it just to take the case. >Just before the dot-com crash, we had an example of forced-air cooling >run amok that I regard as an excellent cautionary tale. My >then-employer was, I believe, the first firm to release a dual-Athlon >rack-mount 2U server system. It drew ridiculous amounts of electical >power, almost all of which of course eventually got radiated out as >heat. To prevent it from melting down, a hell of a lot of air got >driven through the chassis from front to back, and the case itself was >of careful (patented) design to maximise the benefit of all that >airflow. We sold clusters of those damned things for scientific >computing, and the sorts of labs that bought them had to bring in >extra-heavy-duty power feeds for them -- not to mention air >conditioning. And the din they put out was just unbelievable! Yiii! >I wouldn't have taken one on a bet, and I'll bet that just the AC power >and air conditioning bills for a cluster of them would break the bank. >I wonder if they're still in use, anywhere? > >So, anyway, the aforementioned K6 tower is my preferred sort of system. >It's relatively quiet, and probably _could_ get by on almost entirely >passive cooling, because of the huge case and large amounts of spacing >between the heat-producing components (which, on reflection, means >mostly the two hard drives). Well see, that's kind of like my open-case method. The whole room is my big case! But I certainly take your point. >I have a couple of case fans on the >belt-and-suspenders theory. It would be _quieter_ without them, and could >probably survive without them and with a PC Power & Cooling Silencer >instead of the big-ass TurboCool. But it's relatively quiet and runs >very cool, while giving me the confidence that it would remain OK even >if a couple of the fans seized up. Do you think a Silencer would provide enough power for my system? >> I have one blowing on the Riva TNT graphic card, one on the >> soon-to-be-retired swap drive, and one on the two main 3.5" drives >> that are stacked only 1/8" apart. > >See, that bit about 1/8" spacing sounds bad, to me. I'd stretch out the >spacing a lot, if possible. If the case didn't permit that, I'd shitcan >the case and get a bigger one. In fact, that's exactly what I _did_ do, >to get the case the K6 now resides in. OK. Now I have two good reasons not to recyle the mini-tower! Are there towers where you can adjust the spacing between the disks, like by having tapped holes every half inch or so, instead of fixed bays? >I'm not in any way saying you haven't done a great job. What matters is >results, and you say it runs cool. That counts as success. However, >you've achieved that at the cost of making the cooling reliant on a >bunch of $7 fans. I get greater warm-fuzzies from removing that >reliance, is all I'm saying. > >> I haven't had the side panel on the case for years.... > >Most cases are actually designed so that they do effective air flow only >with the case closed. You may be impairing heat control, by operating >it that way. I know, but I did feel up all the parts to make sure they're cool enough, and the power supply fan is still blowing right on the cpu and memory. All right, I will try to keep the case buttoned up on the new one, if the cpu stays cool enough. Well, maybe... I think I'm going to want to _look_ at it a lot! Thanks! Mark From rick@linuxmafia.com Mon Jun 09 10:17:47 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19PQHD-0003Wm-00 for ; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 10:17:47 -0700 Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 10:17:47 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Last Year's Supercomputer Message-ID: <20030609171747.GA29461@linuxmafia.com> References: <0306061235322M.25409@isis> <20030608182734.GL29461@linuxmafia.com> <20030609074100.GS29461@linuxmafia.com> <20030609142823.GA506@hank.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030609142823.GA506@hank.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Rick Moen X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 17:17:48 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 631 Lines: 17 Quoting moseley@hank.org (moseley@hank.org): > VIA has a somewhat humorous movie about heatsinks: > > http://ads.viaarena.com/c3/thermals.zip > > from page http://www.viaarena.com/?PageID=4 Hmm, the link from www.viaarena.com is still there ("Check out this video that shows what happens when you remove the heatsink on a Celeron compared to the VIA C3 processor."), but there's no file any more at the ads.viaarena.com site. Too bad. -- Resize your browser so the following line touches both margins!
Best Regards, Rick Moen, rick@linuxmafia.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Mon Jun 09 10:35:23 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19PQYD-0003mh-00 for ; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 10:35:21 -0700 Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 10:35:21 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Last Year's Supercomputer Message-ID: <20030609173521.GC29461@linuxmafia.com> References: <03060908464631.25409@isis> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <03060908464631.25409@isis> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Rick Moen X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 17:35:23 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1936 Lines: 44 Quoting Mark S Bilk (mark@cosmicpenguin.com): > Do you think a Silencer would provide enough power for my system? I think so. Heed the power ratings on them. The great thing about the maximum-output ratings on PC Power & Cooling units is that you can actually believe them. When a generic Taiwanese unit says "300 W", experience says that it may or may not actually support that. If it doesn't and you stress it even a little, system operation will start becoming unreliable in bizarre and inconsistent ways. If you stress it a _lot_, then it will commit seppuku -- and take your hard drives with it, nine times out of ten. With a cheap power supply, you have no idea where the actual dividing line between "stressed a little" and "stressed a lot" is: You typically don't really know anything about the margin of safety until catastrophic failure occurs. A beefy power supply from PC Power & Cooling -- from either the TurboCool or Silencer product line -- is reassuring in sense that whatever reserve rating it claims to have will really be there. However, it's undeniable that the beefier ones will be not only more expensive but also noisier. It's just inescapable. > Are there towers where you can adjust the spacing between the > disks, like by having tapped holes every half inch or so, instead > of fixed bays? Dunno. You'll want to look around. I personally find the ones with lots of fixed bays to be good enough. > I know, but I did feel up all the parts to make sure they're cool > enough, and the power supply fan is still blowing right on the cpu > and memory. As I said, success is success, and it sounds as if you had a cool-running system, which is what matters. I just mentioned the bit about some cases running significantly better when closed up because I've been bitten by it, myself. -- Cheers, find / -user your -name base -print | xargs chown us:us Rick Moen rick@linuxmafia.com From moseley@hank.org Mon Jun 09 10:55:07 2003 Received: from mardy.hank.org ([63.205.225.170] helo=mardy) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19PQrL-0004AS-00 for ; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 10:55:07 -0700 Received: from laptop ([192.168.1.3] helo=laptop.hank.org) by mardy with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19PQmN-0004CR-00 for ; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 10:49:59 -0700 Received: from moseley by laptop.hank.org with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19PQmN-0000GY-00 for ; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 10:49:59 -0700 Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 10:49:58 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Last Year's Supercomputer Message-ID: <20030609174958.GA1016@hank.org> References: <0306061235322M.25409@isis> <20030608182734.GL29461@linuxmafia.com> <20030609074100.GS29461@linuxmafia.com> <20030609142823.GA506@hank.org> <20030609171747.GA29461@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030609171747.GA29461@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: moseley@hank.org X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 17:55:08 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 803 Lines: 24 On Mon, Jun 09, 2003 at 10:17:47AM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting moseley@hank.org (moseley@hank.org): > > > VIA has a somewhat humorous movie about heatsinks: > > > > http://ads.viaarena.com/c3/thermals.zip > > > > from page http://www.viaarena.com/?PageID=4 > > Hmm, the link from www.viaarena.com is still there ("Check out this > video that shows what happens when you remove the heatsink on a Celeron > compared to the VIA C3 processor."), but there's no file any more at the > ads.viaarena.com site. Too bad. Oh sorry. It was just a somewhat funny movie of starting a stopwatch and pulling the heatsink off a Celeron and watching it crash. Then they do the same with the VIA C3 and you watch the tester get really bored waiting for it to crash. -- Bill Moseley moseley@hank.org From rick@linuxmafia.com Mon Jun 09 11:12:38 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19PR8I-0004Nt-00 for ; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 11:12:38 -0700 Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 11:12:38 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Last Year's Supercomputer Message-ID: <20030609181238.GE29461@linuxmafia.com> References: <03060908081130.25409@isis> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <03060908081130.25409@isis> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Rick Moen X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 18:12:39 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 4439 Lines: 90 Quoting Mark S Bilk (mark@cosmicpenguin.com): > I'll keep that in mind. I'm now leaning toward an nForce2 > motherboard and an Athlon XP 2500+ or 2800+ CPU, which has > a 333MHz bus instead of 266, and 512KB of L2 cache instead > of 256K. > > I may be getting into multimedia, and I also want very fast > rendering of web pages, pdf files, and other such stuff that's > currently frustrating. You'll have to make up your own mind what's a satisfying CPU for the sort of tasks you're going to concentrate on. Maybe you can bring a Knoppix disk into some stores and play around with different classes of machines. This will tell you more than would playing with the store's Microosoft-OS preloads, which have different loading characteristics than Linux does (and are much more CPU-intensive). As Heather says, beware of differences caused by variations in video card performance, as opposed to between CPUs. (Access speed and quantity of system RAM can make a difference, too, but that's easier to spot.) For most purposes, I tend to think that, if you're not a 3D gamer, then all video cards of the last five years with 64 MB or so of video buffer memory are alike. (AGP is nice, too.) Thus my liking for used Matrox G400 AGP cards, which were exstremely reliable and of uniform parts content -- unlike, say, Diamond Multimedia cards, which suffered the RAMDAC du jour syndrome. Then, too, if you pick a video card that's been stable for a while and favoured by Linux geeks (such as the Matrox G400 AGP), then very likely the XFree86 server for it is going to be extraordinarily well debugged and tweaked for performacne. Which point out why, conversely, buying a card based on a new and exotic video chipset is a mistake from that perspective. > AMD lists the max power dissipation of their CPUs in the 2500+ > range as 70 watts. If an Intel CPU is half that, the difference > is 35 watts, which isn't all that much as far as causing discomfort > to a person nearby (my computer sort of has to sit up on my desk > next to me). > > Is the fan/heatsink that comes with the boxed Athlon XP a good one? I have no clue about that. Your observations above sound reasonable; I know only that there _seems_ to be a big difference in heat output among currently popular CPUs. As far as parts longevity and noise levels are concerned, don't forget that here we're talking not just about quantity of heat but also its concentration in one spot: Dealing with significant amounts of heat coming from what's practically a point source (a CPU) is more problematic than the same amount of heat coming from, say, a hard drive. What I have to say about modern CPUs and video cards needs to be taken _cum granum salis_, because I've simply not been in the market for hardware in a good long while. Far from attempting to do 1600x1200 screens running lots of multimedia and PDF rendering, I'm happily sitting on a PII/366 128 MB RAM laptop with a 14" LCD screen on wireless networking: It's quiet, it goes anywhere, its keyboard and pointing device don't suck too badly. The point, though, is that aside from Deirdre's new, tiny P4 server, it's actually one of the faster Linux boxen in the house, despite being neither new nor fast. So, my knowledge of modern CPUs and video chipsets is mostly theoretical and general. > Exabyte tape; it's plenty fast for that. Ah, much becomes clear. I think we've talked on the 'phone about tape backup, and I told you about the problem with Exabyte 8 mm drives: They're forever breaking down, and needing to be rebuilt. As long as yours works, great; enjoy it. Tape hardware tends to be endlessly fussy over the long term, especially the several popular types that use VCR-style helical scanning (including 8 mm), on account of their rapid wear of both tapes and drive heads. Non-sucky tape backup starts with DLT (which is linear serpentine rather than helical scan), and progresses through DLT3XL, DLT4, SDLT, DLT7000, ADR2, and LTO -- but all of those are awfully expensive. For personal LANs and small businesses, you still mostly find DDS3 and DDS4. > Good idea, but can't afford it. Believe me, I'm with you on that more than you know. Fortunately, $21 is pretty trivial over the long run. -- Cheers, I've been suffering death by PowerPoint, recently. Rick Moen -- Huw Davies rick@linuxmafia.com From bill@billsaysthis.com Mon Jun 09 10:43:05 2003 Received: from self.phpwebhosting.com ([64.65.61.215]) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19PQfh-0003pR-00 for ; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 10:43:05 -0700 Received: (qmail 16476 invoked by uid 508); 9 Jun 2003 17:36:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bill) (12.234.117.82) by self.phpwebhosting.com with SMTP; 9 Jun 2003 17:36:54 -0000 From: "Bill Lazar" To: Subject: RE: [conspire] Last Year's Supercomputer Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 10:38:58 -0700 Message-ID: <01cf01c32eae$02019070$6401a8c0@bill> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20030609173521.GC29461@linuxmafia.com> X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 11:34:08 -0700 X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 17:43:05 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 94 Lines: 5 > I know, but I did feel up all the parts Who enjoyed it more, the parts or you? From biow@bigfoot.com Mon Jun 09 12:47:41 2003 Received: from 66-81-7-215.o1.com ([66.81.7.215] helo=dnscache1.pcmagic.net) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19PScG-0005hH-00 for ; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 12:47:40 -0700 Received: (qmail 36293 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2003 19:41:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.pcmagic.net) (66.117.11.13) by 0 with SMTP; 9 Jun 2003 19:41:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 79836 invoked by uid 88); 9 Jun 2003 12:41:51 -0700 Received: from unknown (HELO khan.ejb.edu) (biow@66.81.155.164) by 0 with SMTP; 9 Jun 2003 12:41:51 -0700 Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 12:45:26 -0700 From: Edmund Biow To: "Mark S Bilk" Subject: Re: [conspire] Last Year's Supercomputer Message-Id: <20030609124526.5046fec5.biow@bigfoot.com> In-Reply-To: <03060908464631.25409@isis> References: <03060908464631.25409@isis> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.6.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i586-mandrake-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 19:47:41 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 3147 Lines: 67 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Moseley" To: "Mark S Bilk" Cc: ; "SVLUG List" Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2003 12:05 PM > I've got a XP 1800+ and a P4 2.4 sitting right next to each other with > otherwise the same hardware (well, the P4 has an extra 80GB drive). I'm > amazed how much more heat the Athlon produces. Just something to think > about. > > I think I read the newer Athlons produce less heat, but I don't > have any references for that -- so something you might look up if you > care about such things. Newer do indeed produce a lot less heat than the older models. A Thoroughbred XP1800+, for instance, uses 51 watts, compared to 66w for the older Palomio XP1800+. http://www.cpuscorecard.com/cpuprices/aaxp.htm By comparison the PIV 2.4 GHz uses 58w. http://www.cpuscorecard.com/cpuprices/ip4.htm > I'm also interested in trying the VIA C3 (I think Fry's > has $200 VIA C3 systems) and set up diskless with LTSP just for fun. I bought one of these CPUs for $35 at http://www.softwareandstuff.com/ in Santa Clara (its now $50) along with a $20 Asus 810 chipset motherboard (integrated video, but I had to pony up $7 for a nice-sounding Vortex audio card, since it didn't have integrated sound). The CPU goobles 7-12 watts. For a while I ran it without a fan, only a heat sink, but it would start to act funky on hot days, so I added a cheesy $3 fan, and now it does fine for as long as I care to run it (it will actually crank out a command line SETI unit in only 50 hours!) The VIA C3 draws so little current that the system works well with a feather-light crummy "MaxPower" (wasn't that Homer's adopted name in a Simpsons episode?) 300 watt power supply that came with a $15 ATX case. The whole rig with 512 MB of Kingston PC133 ($40), $40 after MIR 40 GB HD & a $20 after MIR IDE CD-RW probably didn't cost me much more than Rick would routinely shell out on a nice SCSI burner. BTW, I've installed dozens of IDE burners and only seen one that would occasionally freeze a system (labeled Imation, but I don't remember what it really is). So we replaced it for $30 and it now resides unplugged in a tech machine with an open case at a place that I do volunteer work refurbing donated computers for use in the Cuban medical infrastructure. http://www.cubasolidarity.net/whoarewe.html If someone needs a disk burned, we shut the machine down, unplug the 4x CD-ROM, and plug this unit in, then reboot, burn the disc and then reverse the procedure. Not ideal, but it works well enough in the circumstances. My Via C3 box has Redhat 8, which I put on it at an InstallFest, but I just bought SuSE 8.2 Personal for $30 from Amazon. There was an earlier thread about acquiring SuSE last week. I called SuSE hoping to buy it from their Oakland HQ so my geld would directly benefit the developers, but they apparently don't sell media from their office and directed me to CompUSA, where SuSE claimed it was $40, but it turned out to be priced at $50, but Amazon has free shipping and I got the box within a few days. Ed From rick@linuxmafia.com Mon Jun 09 13:32:26 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19PTJZ-0006Oh-00 for ; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 13:32:25 -0700 Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 13:32:25 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Last Year's Supercomputer Message-ID: <20030609203225.GA23683@linuxmafia.com> References: <03060908464631.25409@isis> <20030609124526.5046fec5.biow@bigfoot.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030609124526.5046fec5.biow@bigfoot.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Rick Moen X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 20:32:26 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2602 Lines: 53 Quoting Edmund Biow (biow@bigfoot.com): [VIA C3 CPUs:] > I bought one of these CPUs for $35 at http://www.softwareandstuff.com/ in > Santa Clara (its now $50) along with a $20 Asus 810 chipset motherboard > (integrated video, but I had to pony up $7 for a nice-sounding Vortex audio > card, since it didn't have integrated sound). The CPU goobles 7-12 watts. > For a while I ran it without a fan, only a heat sink, but it would start to > act funky on hot days, so I added a cheesy $3 fan, and now it does fine for > as long as I care to run it (it will actually crank out a command line SETI > unit in only 50 hours!) Ed, I doff my virtual hat. You've just walked away with the Maximum Effectiveness Through Careful Cheap Bastardhood award. > The VIA C3 draws so little current that the system works well with a > feather-light crummy "MaxPower" (wasn't that Homer's adopted name in a > Simpsons episode?) 300 watt power supply that came with a $15 ATX case. The > whole rig with 512 MB of Kingston PC133 ($40), $40 after MIR 40 GB HD & a > $20 after MIR IDE CD-RW probably didn't cost me much more than Rick would > routinely shell out on a nice SCSI burner. Just a note: I'm picky, but I'm not spendthrift: Last time I bought a CD burner, I waited until I was going to attend a Robert Austin Computer Show at the Oakland Convention Center, and found out who has a good deal. One of the vendors had a Ricoh SCSI burner for just over $100, so I took it. One of the benefits of buying the Ricoh, Yamaha, or Toshiba units is that they're built to last, too. My drive is now really slow by modern standards, but that's because it hasn't died like the cheapos. My point is that, rationally, the cost of a component should be measured in dollars _per year of productive use_. Something that's cheap today but useful only for a year is no bargain compared to something with twice the price but useful for five years. "Productive" use is of course a matter of judgement -- as are estimates of how things are likely to play out in the future. Next RobAusCo computer show isn't for a while -- Saturday, June 21 at the Cow Palace. Might be a more cost-effective place to get parts (most kinds, anyway) than Fry's, for people who aren't in a hurry. Don't forget to do the on-line registration thing well in advance to get free admission. http://www.robertaustin.com/ -- Cheers, "Don't use Outlook. Outlook is really just a security Rick Moen hole with a small e-mail client attached to it." rick@linuxmafia.com -- Brian Trosko in r.a.sf.w.r-j From biow@bigfoot.com Mon Jun 09 16:05:01 2003 Received: from 66-81-7-215.o1.com ([66.81.7.215] helo=dnscache1.pcmagic.net) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19PVhF-00006f-00 for ; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 16:05:01 -0700 Received: (qmail 54041 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2003 22:59:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.pcmagic.net) (66.117.11.13) by 0 with SMTP; 9 Jun 2003 22:59:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 63132 invoked by uid 88); 9 Jun 2003 15:59:10 -0700 Received: from unknown (HELO bigfoot.com) (biow@66.81.156.170) by 0 with SMTP; 9 Jun 2003 15:59:10 -0700 Message-ID: <3EE5112B.2010903@bigfoot.com> Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 15:58:51 -0700 From: "Edmund J. Biow" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030529 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Last Year's Supercomputer References: <0306061235322M.25409@isis> <20030607180229.GH29461@linuxmafia.com> In-Reply-To: <20030607180229.GH29461@linuxmafia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 23:05:02 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 6009 Lines: 106 > Ed, I doff my virtual hat. You've just walked away with the Maximum > Effectiveness Through Careful Cheap Bastardhood award. I'm honored, Suh! > Just a note: I'm picky, but I'm not spendthrift: Last time I bought a > CD burner, I waited until I was going to attend a Robert Austin Computer > Show at the Oakland Convention Center, and found out who has a good > deal. One of the vendors had a Ricoh SCSI burner for just over $100, so > I took it. > > One of the benefits of buying the Ricoh, Yamaha, or Toshiba units is > that they're built to last, too. My drive is now really slow by modern > standards, but that's because it hasn't died like the cheapos. > > My point is that, rationally, the cost of a component should be measured > in dollars _per year of productive use_. Something that's cheap today but > useful only for a year is no bargain compared to something with twice > the price but useful for five years. Of the dozens of IDE burners I've installed, besides the Imation with the freezing problem, I've only had one really go pecker-up on me, my first, for which I actually paid the lordly sum of $180 after rebate. It was a Yamaha sold by Memorex, which stopped burning CD-Rs reliably one year & a few days after I bought it. Last year I collected $50 from a class action law suit (I could have elected to get a replacement for my 4x4x6 burner instead!) https://www.classactionamerica.com/cases/case.asp?cid=1673&categoryID=3 With the $50 I could have bought a nice, modern 32X burner. BTW, the 6 year old Memorex CRW-1622 unit still works making CD-RW backups and as a straight CD drive in a friend's computer in Guaunajuato, MX. Reuse, recycle... I try to buy dirt cheap, but necessarily bottom of the barrel. Those $10-$30 after-rebate burners you see advertised from big box stores are generally sold by companies that rebadge drives from a variety of makers (e.g. Verbatim, Cendyne, Pacific Digital, etc.) Often you can deduce from the serial numbers on the boxes which drives are relatively higher quality (Lite-On, Acer) and which are to be shunned (BTC, Optorite). Here's a not atypical thread mentioning how you can get a 52x burner and actually make a little pocket change in the process: http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.cfm?catid=40&threadid=1062018&FTVAR_MSGDBTABLE = Of course, this type of insanity has its own opportunity costs (monitoring the deals forums, getting up Sunday morning so you can be at the store when they open at 10 AM and have the widest variety of drives from which to choose ). On the economic front, remember that if you go SCSI you also have to shell out for a SCSI card and sometimes for cables. Also, according to Pricewatch the cheapest SCSI burner is a TEAC 12x10x32 for about $113 after tax and shipping & the prices climb very rapidly from there. You can get an Acer 48X drive to your door for ~$38, no rebate, about a third of the price. And you'll almost never find a mail-in rebate deal on a SCSI part. So even if the IDE burner dies in a year or two, the way tech prices drop one could probably get a faster replacement drive for less than half of the money saved by not going SCSI & still have enough money left over for a "pretty good weekend in Vegas," in the immortal words of Slim Pickens in Dr. Strangelove. Moreover, for SCSI you also need an extra PCI slot unless you have onboard SCSI (only on very pricey server motherboards). That isn't a big deal now, when typical motherboards come with integrated audio, LAN and often video, Firewire, S-ATA, RAID, etc., as well as 3-6 PCI slots, but older Socket 7 and Slot 1 boards often only had 3 PCI slots and a similar number of ISA slots, and you needed at least one slot for video and possibly others for NIC and sound. Sometimes even if you have an extra slot, mustering up an interrupt can be a problem. These days IDE "Burn-Proof" or its kindred works quite well with half-way decent media. My cousin was really surprised that we could burn 3 copies of Mandrake 9.1 under RH8 with X-CD-Roast while surfing the net and downloading the other ISOs with gFTP without a buffer underrun, even with a several year old Yamaha 8x burner without Burn-Proof. Likewise, these days 7,200 RPM IDE hard drives have performance that is much closer to that of SCSI drives than it used to be (reliability is, perhaps, another matter entirely), and the new S-ATA technology is very promising. I saw a Seagate 80 gig serial ATA drive at Fry's for $120 yesterday vs. $160 for a 74 GB Maxtor Quantum 80 pin SCSI drive (again, from Pricewatch). Both drives have comparable data transfer, but the price of S-ATA is dropping like a stone, & performance in increasing apace. However for me HD reliability is much more important than for a CD-RW drive. If a burner were to crap out, I'd just toggle on a different machine, while having a hard drive die oftne means losing data and having to reinstall an OS. Good SCSI drives often come with 4-5 year warranties, while last year most makers went from 3 year to 1 year warranties with their IDE drives (you can still get 3 year warranties on some of the higher end models with the 8 MB buffer). And SCSI has better seek times. On the other paw, those 10,000-15,000 RPM SCSI drives can be amazingly annoying, with their high-pitched whines. I recently fixed up a dual Pentium II, dual 4.3 gig SCSI system that I'd been given for another friend & I could barely stand to be in the same room as the thing & its deafening array of case fans. I completed some of the work on the system with VNC from downstairs, but luckily for him, the guy who now uses it doesn't leave it running all the time. -Here's where I'd have a cleaver sig if I had a brain in my head, Ed From rick@linuxmafia.com Mon Jun 09 19:26:55 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19PYqd-0002rL-00 for ; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 19:26:55 -0700 Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 19:26:55 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Last Year's Supercomputer Message-ID: <20030610022655.GD23683@linuxmafia.com> References: <0306061235322M.25409@isis> <20030607180229.GH29461@linuxmafia.com> <3EE5112B.2010903@bigfoot.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3EE5112B.2010903@bigfoot.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Rick Moen X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 02:26:56 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 11425 Lines: 224 Quoting Edmund J. Biow (biow@bigfoot.com): > I'm honored, Suh! Credit where due. > I try to buy dirt cheap, but necessarily bottom of the barrel. Those > $10-$30 after-rebate burners you see advertised from big box stores are > generally sold by companies that rebadge drives from a variety of makers > (e.g. Verbatim, Cendyne, Pacific Digital, etc.) Often you can deduce > from the serial numbers on the boxes which drives are relatively higher > quality (Lite-On, Acer) and which are to be shunned (BTC, Optorite). Take note, folks. He's right. (I can verify what he says about Acer, and will take his word about Lite-On.) The major brands (Ricoh, Philips, Yamaha, Sony, Toshiba...) have been known, as well, to OEM their models behind obscure off-brands as well as less obscure ones. A bit of research _or_ just scrutiny of the unit will often turn this up. What you may never know is the background story of why that OEM deal happened. It might have been a production batch with really bad quality control that the manufacturer doesn't want to put its name on, so the batch was jobbed off to someone else. Or something else of that sort. I dunno; I seem to do pretty well _with_ brand pickiness by just biding my time and buying at the right time and place. > On the economic front, remember that if you go SCSI you also have to > shell out for a SCSI card and sometimes for cables. It helps to have been accumulating this stuff for ages. Other people don't know the value of components when they throw away old servers, for example, which is how I got two Adaptec AHA-2940U host adapters sitting out in the garage box o'parts waiting to be needed again. Even better, someone was throwing away a Symbios / LSI Logic SYM8951U card (53C895 chipset), which does 40 MB/sec _and_ supports LVD mode. Too bad none of those supports a wide data path; I have two that do, already deployed in knockaround machines. The ones in the garage box are there because they're not as good. (I also have two ISA Adaptec AHA-1542B cards, good enough for non-HD peripherals, but only really old machiens still have ISA slots at all.) Good internal SCSI cables? I have dozens and dozens of quality ones of (I think) both narrow and wide varieties, which $FIRM was throwing in the dumpster one day for no good reason. (Need a few?) I also have a couple of rolls of bulk cabling (cut to suit) and crimp-on connectors for my old WAN/LAN consulting business, bought cheaply at Graybar back when. Why buy expensive pre-made cables, especially at Fry's prices? So, on the whole, cost of both host adapters and cabling hasn't been a factor for me. And I should _particularly_ stress that my acquiring most of those parts for free wasn't rare or a fluke: Lots of people I know do likewise, all the time, mostly benefitting from corporate sites that couldn't find quality parts with a map and flashlight, who were throwing them away. > Also, according to Pricewatch the cheapest SCSI burner is a TEAC > 12x10x32 for about $113 after tax and shipping & the prices climb very > rapidly from there. You can get an Acer 48X drive to your door for > ~$38, no rebate, about a third of the price. And you'll almost never > find a mail-in rebate deal on a SCSI part. So even if the IDE burner > dies in a year or two, the way tech prices drop one could probably get > a faster replacement drive for less than half of the money saved by > not going SCSI & still have enough money left over for a "pretty good > weekend in Vegas," in the immortal words of Slim Pickens in Dr. > Strangelove. Well, I'll bear that in mind if/when the Ricoh eventually dies. But it's worth a little for me just to run a system with much simpler software configuration, with no ide-scsi shim driver, no total system freeze-ups when bugs in that driver cause it to hang while in I/O mode, no funky arguments that need to be provided to the booting kernel, and no gyrations needing to be worked out every time some new factor (such as devfs) gets introduced. You see, I have a working theory that the elimination of technological bullshit has non-zero economic value that manifests primarily as greater satisfaction and peace of mind, despite the fact that you cannot list it on eBay. ATAPI CDR/CDR-W and tape drives aren't near the top of my list of such bullshit implementalia, but _are_ comfortably ensconced somewhere in the middle. > [...] older Socket 7 and Slot 1 boards often only had 3 PCI slots and > a similar number of ISA slots, and you needed at least one slot for > video and possibly others for NIC and sound. Ah, here you're on ground more intimately familiar to me than, say, Athlon XP CPUs. One of the things most important to system planning has always been, of course, making sure you have adequate maneouvering room for the medium future. For that reason, a Socket 7 or Slot 1 mainboard with only 3 PCI slots -- unless it also had at least one separately usable AGP one or had good-quality ethernet and/or sound built in -- was inherently unacceptable merchandise for general-purpose computing. For example, even my cheapo (1997 vintage) Socket 7 FIC PA-2007 has four PCI slots. (This was Baby AT form factor, 1 MB onboard level 2 cache, VIA Apollo VP2 chipset aka AMD 640.) However, back then, you could even get by -- barely -- with one of those 3-PCI board if it also had a few ISA ones, as does my PA-2007, because most of us back then had a few good ol' Creative Labs Soundblasters of various vintages in the parts pile. My garage box still has an AWE64, an AWE32, and a couple of Soundblaster 16s -- all still perfectly fine _if_ you still have ISA slots around. > Sometimes even if you have an extra slot, mustering up an interrupt > can be a problem. Actually, no: This is one of those problems that was nearly unique to ATA ("IDE") fans of that era. Why? Because they kept having to add special adapter cards (each grabbing an IRQ) for peripherals (scanners zip drives, and tape drives, usually -- though ATAPI eventually fixed some of that) the likes of which I would just hang off a SCSI chain. I can honestly say that I've never come even close to running out of IRQs on a SCSI-based system. > These days IDE "Burn-Proof" or its kindred works quite well with > half-way decent media. What amazes me is how long people put up with the problems these finally somewhat address, and how grateful they become about finally being able to decently multitask. Back around 1995, I was burning CDs with no worries whatsoever on my 486DX2/66 all-SCSI Linux server, which was simultaneously being a public Web/ftp server, ssh shell-account server for several dozen people around the world, mailing list (majordomo) and SMTP host, _and_ X11 server for my local desktop needs -- all with 64 MB total RAM. (Mind you, I used fvwm2, not Enlightenment.) > My cousin was really surprised that we could burn 3 copies of Mandrake > 9.1 under RH8 with X-CD-Roast while surfing the net and downloading > the other ISOs with gFTP without a buffer underrun, even with a > several year old Yamaha 8x burner without Burn-Proof. Welcome your cousin to the mid-90s for me. ;-> > Likewise, these days 7,200 RPM IDE hard drives have performance that is > much closer to that of SCSI drives than it used to be (reliability is, > perhaps, another matter entirely), and the new S-ATA technology is very > promising. Yeah, they've been saying that about consecutive generations of ATA since the early 1990s. Here's how things were in 1996, for example: http://linuxmafia.com/pub/hardware/eide.txt.gz I readily believe that ATA technical standards keep advancing. They absolutely do. This is a simple consequence of Moore's Law and general improvements to electronics. But ATA's always had a certain lack of uniformity of standards observance and a tendency to boast terrific numbers in areas that really don't matter (like theoretical maximum bus transfer rates), while falling apart to some degree in multitasking and multiuser real-world deployments. But that's the sort of thing you expect of something that exists to fill the low-price niche: ATA's always fundamentally been about hitting bottom dollar. > I saw a Seagate 80 gig serial ATA drive at Fry's for $120 > yesterday vs. $160 for a 74 GB Maxtor Quantum 80 pin SCSI drive (again, > from Pricewatch). Please note that I _still_ wouldn't buy a Seagate drive on a bet, and wouldn't even before they shortened their warranty period. > Both drives have comparable data transfer.... Actually, no, they don't, really. They have comparable data transfer _figures_, which will mislead the unwary. On modern drives, you cannot saturate the bus -- of either type -- because data cannot be physically read from the drive that quickly, even under contrived test conditions of a completely quiescent single-user system reading ordered data from consecutive sectors of a single cylinder. Under more-complex usage patterns, intelligent disk activity becomes increasingly a factor, such as the ability to reorder pending read tasks into the order involving minimum seek activity. These are the kinds of areas where SCSI has traditionally shone. Every year, I hear from some ATA guy "Well, that used to be the case, but isn't any more", and so far it's still been true. > However for me HD reliability is much more important than for a > CD-RW drive. That's why I like things like SCSI hotfix areas and related hardware-level defect mapping. > Good SCSI drives often come with 4-5 year warranties, while last year > most makers went from 3 year to 1 year warranties with their IDE > drives (you can still get 3 year warranties on some of the higher end > models with the 8 MB buffer). And SCSI has better seek times. You know, the difference _is_ just about wholly artificial, which is maddening. There's no reason the same drive mechanisms can't be offered simultaneously at very slightly different price points depending on the interface card you prefer. The observed market differences seem to just reflect a deliberate policy of market segmentation. I haven't had to buy drives in several years, since the days when 36 GB was actually considered large. It's a good thing, because the artificial premium for SCSI -- which has increased in the last decade -- would really piss me off. That having been said, like most people who neither accumulate warez nor MP3s nor movies nor pr0n nor run my own Debian package mirror nor multiboot five OSes per box, I find that $100 IDE _and_ SCSI hard drives both come in exactly the same size, one called "too big to fill and too big to cheaply back up". ;-> > On the other paw, those 10,000-15,000 RPM SCSI drives can be amazingly > annoying, with their high-pitched whines. This is one reason I like satellite computing via 802.11b-equipped laptops. The irony of that is that it means I use an all-ATA system. ;-> But significant crunching and network tasks are on the whining all-SCSI VA Linux PIII-Katmai/500 running at a bearable distance in the living room. The laptop's mostly just an intelligent terminal. But yeah, that noise problem's a bitch. A lot of people don't realise. -- Cheers, I've been suffering death by PowerPoint, recently. Rick Moen -- Huw Davies rick@linuxmafia.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Fri Jun 13 02:24:41 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19QknY-0005Nd-00 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 02:24:40 -0700 Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 02:24:40 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20030613092440.GL3541@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] A nice P4 motherboard chipset for Linux X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 09:24:43 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2106 Lines: 43 The Intel i865 is a nice, modern yet quite well tested P4 / Socket478 motherboard chipset capable of supporting an 800 MHz front-side (memory) bus and a 2.4 GHz CPU. Among the OEMs that build motherboards from it is Abit, whose IS7-G "Springdale" ATX motherboard I'd like to call to everyone's attention. Without CPU, it costs about $110, street price. Here's another good sign: It's a less-expensive follow-on to the i875 "Canterwood" chipset released to tapp the high end of the market, but has pretty much indistinguishable performance. The thing has "dual-channel" DDR266/333/400 unbuffered SDRAM support, meaning that the DIMMs are divided into two banks, each with its own path to the CPU. It does Serial ATA RAID natively, so you can experiment with that. And it has some sort of 3Com 3C2000-family GigE ethernet, 8 USB ports, and 3 Firewire ports built in, among other things. 5 PCI slots, no ISA. Sound chipset is RealTek ALC650 (six-channel) with the inevitable AC97 codec support. Integrated crummy video (Intel "Extreme Graphics 2" can be ignored. 4 184-pin DIMM sockets. AGP socket supports 1.5V or 0.8V cards only, not 3.3V cards. Put some Mushkin or Crucial RAM on it, put in a 2.4 GHz P4 (maybe $250 for one that will do 800 MHz FSB, if they're out yet at all, or save $75 and run the memory bus slower), add a Radeon 9700 Pro AGPx4 card, put it all in a _huge_ tower case with PC Power & Cooling power supply, add the disk array of your preference, and I'd say you have a future-proofed high-end Linux system. (Note that the memory architecture impresses me much more than does the CPU support.) Much as I like AMD's CPUs, I'll be this one would run a good bit cooler, too. And Abit has an excellent quality record. Hmm, see also interesting news about upgrade potential at http://www.tomshardware.com/technews/20030606.html . (Look for "Abit Cracks the 865PE PAT Code".) And it's overclocker friendly: http://www.tomshardware.com/technews/20030523_050205.html -- Cheers, Ceterum censeo, Caldera delenda est. Rick Moen rick@linuxmafia.com From nkj@namodn.com Fri Jun 13 12:58:26 2003 Received: from namodn.com ([63.150.15.11] helo=cliff.namodn.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19Qugj-0007xk-00; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 12:58:17 -0700 Received: from nkj by cliff.namodn.com with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19Qulp-0001Ma-00; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 13:03:33 -0700 Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 13:03:31 -0700 From: Nick Jennings To: Rick Moen Subject: Re: [conspire] A nice P4 motherboard chipset for Linux Message-ID: <20030613200331.GA3573@iaminsane.com> References: <20030613092440.GL3541@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030613092440.GL3541@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i X-The-Vulters: Ate My Dead Ass Up! X-Info: http://www.iaminsane.com Sender: Nick Jennings cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 19:58:26 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2571 Lines: 56 Informative report there Rick. Thanks for sharing. There are so many options out there these days it's always nice to hear others recommendations. - Nick On Fri, Jun 13, 2003 at 02:24:40AM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: > The Intel i865 is a nice, modern yet quite well tested P4 / Socket478 > motherboard chipset capable of supporting an 800 MHz front-side (memory) > bus and a 2.4 GHz CPU. > > Among the OEMs that build motherboards from it is Abit, whose IS7-G > "Springdale" ATX motherboard I'd like to call to everyone's attention. > Without CPU, it costs about $110, street price. Here's another good > sign: It's a less-expensive follow-on to the i875 "Canterwood" chipset > released to tapp the high end of the market, but has pretty much > indistinguishable performance. > > The thing has "dual-channel" DDR266/333/400 unbuffered SDRAM support, > meaning that the DIMMs are divided into two banks, each with its own > path to the CPU. It does Serial ATA RAID natively, so you can > experiment with that. And it has some sort of 3Com 3C2000-family GigE > ethernet, 8 USB ports, and 3 Firewire ports built in, among other > things. 5 PCI slots, no ISA. Sound chipset is RealTek ALC650 > (six-channel) with the inevitable AC97 codec support. Integrated crummy > video (Intel "Extreme Graphics 2" can be ignored. 4 184-pin DIMM > sockets. AGP socket supports 1.5V or 0.8V cards only, not 3.3V cards. > > Put some Mushkin or Crucial RAM on it, put in a 2.4 GHz P4 (maybe $250 > for one that will do 800 MHz FSB, if they're out yet at all, or save $75 > and run the memory bus slower), add a Radeon 9700 Pro AGPx4 card, put it > all in a _huge_ tower case with PC Power & Cooling power supply, add the > disk array of your preference, and I'd say you have a future-proofed > high-end Linux system. (Note that the memory architecture impresses me > much more than does the CPU support.) > > Much as I like AMD's CPUs, I'll be this one would run a good bit cooler, > too. And Abit has an excellent quality record. > > Hmm, see also interesting news about upgrade potential at > http://www.tomshardware.com/technews/20030606.html . (Look for "Abit > Cracks the 865PE PAT Code".) > > And it's overclocker friendly: > http://www.tomshardware.com/technews/20030523_050205.html > > -- > Cheers, Ceterum censeo, Caldera delenda est. > Rick Moen > rick@linuxmafia.com > > _______________________________________________ > conspire mailing list > conspire@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire > From rick@linuxmafia.com Sat Jun 14 20:30:11 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19RODb-00071b-00 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 20:30:11 -0700 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 20:30:11 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20030615033010.GJ3541@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] IDE RAID cards X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 03:30:12 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1422 Lines: 38 Interesting post by a former hardware engineer from my old firm: -------- Hum, the 3ware cards. I've been evaling these cards and it's not been the best experience. Granted, we're use to fibre and scsi, performance-wise/dependability, so when we're doing hardware raid-5, the 3ware cards sort of suck (use software raid anyway, it seems to works better). On an 8 port 3ware, we're getting in the region of 25 meg/sec write (16k block, somewhat random (a little prego)) at best. This is ext3 pretty much stock settings from RedNeck 7.3, no opt elavator settings etc. Plus, although it's early in the products we're evaling's lifecycle, we've had 1 out of 3 cards fail. Bad luck or bad quality control. I don't know how industrial strenght you need, but fibre (qla2200, simple hub, fibre drives/chassis) works much better (for more money, of course) and SCSI isn't that much more than IDE for better drive quality (IMO, ok, no flame bait), performance, and Linux compatibility. -------- Everyone seems to agree that Linux software RAID (the "md" driver from the kernel) has become so good that many circumstances no longer warrant a dedicated hardware-RAID host adapter. -- Cheers, First they came for the verbs, and I said nothing, for Rick Moen verbing weirds language. Then, they arrival for the nouns rick@linuxmafia.com and I speech nothing, for I no verbs. - Peter Ellis From markbilk@attbi.com Mon Jun 16 10:29:51 2003 Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net ([204.127.202.56] helo=sccrmhc12.attbi.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19Rxnj-0003hZ-00 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 10:29:51 -0700 Received: from isis (12-234-96-106.client.attbi.com[12.234.96.106](untrusted sender)) by attbi.com (sccrmhc12) with SMTP id <2003061617241501200979o4e>; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 17:24:16 +0000 From: "Mark S Bilk" To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 10:23:44 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0306061235322M.25409@isis> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [conspire] Re: Last Year's Supercomputer X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 17:29:51 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 3237 Lines: 69 Thanks to everyone who offered suggestions in response to my original message. You've helped me select a much better system than I had originally chosen! CPU - AMD Athlon XP 2800+ 2083MHz This "Barton" model processor has 512KB L2 cache -- good, I think, for an OS that can multitask -- and a 333MHz bus. I found one with the Ajigo heatsink/fan -- quieter (31dB instead of 40) with dual ball-bearing fan and a heatsink with 50 fins instead of 25. $193 (Pixel USA, San Jose) Motherboard - Asus A7N8X Deluxe, using the nVidia nForce2 chipset, which is designed for very rapid transfer of data between cpu, memory, graphics card, and disks. If two memory sticks are used, it operates them simultaneously as a 128-bit wide memory with double the usual transfer rate. The FIC AU13 board does the same for 1/3 cheaper, but FIC says they haven't tested it with 400MHz FSB processors; I think they have, and it doesn't work, meaning that it's operating near its limits. The Asus board has 2 SATA, 2 firewire, 4 front and 2 rear USB, and an additional ethernet port. It, and probably others using the nForce2 chipset, have source code drivers from nVidia, and someone has written up a nice set of instructions: http://attila.stevens-tech.edu/~dkopko/a7n8x.txt $131 (Ajump, Fremont) or $145 (Central Computer Systems [CCS]) Memory - 2 each Corsair CMX512-2700C2 - 512MB 333MHz CL2 DDR (must be the usual unbuffered, rather than "registered", to use the nForce2 double transfer rate). CL2 is CAS latency 2 (rather than 2.5); a little faster. Asus tech support says that running RAM faster than the CPU actually slows down performance, so 333MHz is enough. They say Corsair and Mushkin are best. 2 x $74.50 = $149 (newegg.com) Case and Power Supply -- Antec Plus1080AMG mid-tower. 430W power supply, 6 3" bays and 4 5". Very nice looking. Each triple 3" bay cage (which slip in and out very easily) has a place to mount an 8cm fan. It only comes with one fan clip for that, but they're sending me another for free (usually $4). CCS had already transferred in a PC Power & Cooling Silencer 400 PS, but the Santa Clara CCS Linux-aware tech guy Jeremy (a good resource!) said the Antec supply was just as good (based on his experience with both), quieter, and plenty powerful enough. SCSI controller on a PCI card -- Tekram DC-315U - 50-Pin Ultra SCSI internal and external connectors. For my Exabyte 8mm tape drive. $25 (CCS) Pacific Digital 52x24x52 CD-R/RW drive, IDE. Although the ide-scsi driver for IDE CD-R drives can occasionally hang the kernel, it will be unnecessary in kernel 2.6. $20 after rebate (Fry's sale) Optional Zalman-CNPS6000-AlCu heatsink/fan - cools up to XP 2600+ in silent mode (low fan rpm). This "flower" heatsink has numerous large fins and a large, very quiet fan that you mount nearby. I'll get it if the AMD fan is too loud. http://www.zalmanusa.com/ $30 Note: The people at Central Computer Systems were extremely helpful, measuring SCSI connectors and having parts shipped free from both their Newark and SF stores to the Santa Clara one overnight. Their prices are often only a few dollars over the best mailorder ones in pricewatch. Thanks! Mark From markbilk@attbi.com Mon Jun 16 10:24:49 2003 Received: from rwcrmhc53.comcast.net ([204.127.198.39] helo=rwcrmhc13.attbi.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19Rxir-0003gd-00 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 10:24:49 -0700 Received: from isis (12-234-96-106.client.attbi.com[12.234.96.106](untrusted sender)) by attbi.com (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <20030616171914015009n42ie>; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 17:19:14 +0000 From: Mark S Bilk To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 10:14:03 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0306061235322M.25409@isis> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 11:04:18 -0700 Subject: [conspire] Re: Last Year's Supercomputer X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 17:24:49 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 3237 Lines: 69 Thanks to everyone who offered suggestions in response to my original message. You've helped me select a much better system than I had originally chosen! CPU - AMD Athlon XP 2800+ 2083MHz This "Barton" model processor has 512KB L2 cache -- good, I think, for an OS that can multitask -- and a 333MHz bus. I found one with the Ajigo heatsink/fan -- quieter (31dB instead of 40) with dual ball-bearing fan and a heatsink with 50 fins instead of 25. $193 (Pixel USA, San Jose) Motherboard - Asus A7N8X Deluxe, using the nVidia nForce2 chipset, which is designed for very rapid transfer of data between cpu, memory, graphics card, and disks. If two memory sticks are used, it operates them simultaneously as a 128-bit wide memory with double the usual transfer rate. The FIC AU13 board does the same for 1/3 cheaper, but FIC says they haven't tested it with 400MHz FSB processors; I think they have, and it doesn't work, meaning that it's operating near its limits. The Asus board has 2 SATA, 2 firewire, 4 front and 2 rear USB, and an additional ethernet port. It, and probably others using the nForce2 chipset, have source code drivers from nVidia, and someone has written up a nice set of instructions: http://attila.stevens-tech.edu/~dkopko/a7n8x.txt $131 (Ajump, Fremont) or $145 (Central Computer Systems [CCS]) Memory - 2 each Corsair CMX512-2700C2 - 512MB 333MHz CL2 DDR (must be the usual unbuffered, rather than "registered", to use the nForce2 double transfer rate). CL2 is CAS latency 2 (rather than 2.5); a little faster. Asus tech support says that running RAM faster than the CPU actually slows down performance, so 333MHz is enough. They say Corsair and Mushkin are best. 2 x $74.50 = $149 (newegg.com) Case and Power Supply -- Antec Plus1080AMG mid-tower. 430W power supply, 6 3" bays and 4 5". Very nice looking. Each triple 3" bay cage (which slip in and out very easily) has a place to mount an 8cm fan. It only comes with one fan clip for that, but they're sending me another for free (usually $4). CCS had already transferred in a PC Power & Cooling Silencer 400 PS, but the Santa Clara CCS Linux-aware tech guy Jeremy (a good resource!) said the Antec supply was just as good (based on his experience with both), quieter, and plenty powerful enough. SCSI controller on a PCI card -- Tekram DC-315U - 50-Pin Ultra SCSI internal and external connectors. For my Exabyte 8mm tape drive. $25 (CCS) Pacific Digital 52x24x52 CD-R/RW drive, IDE. Although the ide-scsi driver for IDE CD-R drives can occasionally hang the kernel, it will be unnecessary in kernel 2.6. $20 after rebate (Fry's sale) Optional Zalman-CNPS6000-AlCu heatsink/fan - cools up to XP 2600+ in silent mode (low fan rpm). This "flower" heatsink has numerous large fins and a large, very quiet fan that you mount nearby. I'll get it if the AMD fan is too loud. http://www.zalmanusa.com/ $30 Note: The people at Central Computer Systems were extremely helpful, measuring SCSI connectors and having parts shipped free from both their Newark and SF stores to the Santa Clara one overnight. Their prices are often only a few dollars over the best mailorder ones in pricewatch. Thanks! Mark From rick@linuxmafia.com Mon Jun 16 11:29:36 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19RyjY-0004mH-00 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 11:29:36 -0700 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 11:29:35 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: Last Year's Supercomputer Message-ID: <20030616182935.GS3541@linuxmafia.com> References: <0306061235322M.25409@isis> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <0306061235322M.25409@isis> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Rick Moen X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 18:29:37 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1938 Lines: 49 Quoting Mark S Bilk (markbilk@attbi.com): > Thanks to everyone who offered suggestions in response to my > original message. You've helped me select a much better system > than I had originally chosen! Yr. most welcome! Enjoy your new system. > CL2 is CAS latency 2 Please note that CAS2 must be specified relative to a specific memory-bus speed, or it doesn't mean anything. A vendor saying "Oh, yes, sure this RAM will do CAS2 operation" could mean at 66 MHz. > Asus tech support says that running RAM faster than the CPU actually > slows down performance.... There's roughly zero risk of that when your CPU is running at 2 GHz. Remember, that's the whole reason we have L1 and L2 caches. > They say Corsair and Mushkin are best. My experience is Mushkin way out in front, then Crucial and Corsair. The differences lie mainly in defect percentages. (Of course, those percentages also tend to differ dramatically by vendor, since the really cheap RAM vendors often are hitting their price point by selling seconds, OEM pull units, customer returns, etc.) Interesting article on RAM (but based on a sample of just one RAM set from each of the three manufacturers): http://www.8ballshardware.com/articles/ddrcompare/page1.cfm I like the Central Computer people very much -- on account of them having good prices and actually bothering to keep in stock quite a few things I'd actually consider buying -- but I'd never, ever, ever listen to their advice on parts selection. > Although the ide-scsi driver for IDE CD-R drives can occasionally hang > the kernel, it will be unnecessary in kernel 2.6. Quite right; the dedicated driver will be able to hang the kernel directly. ;-> -- Cheers, First they came for the verbs, and I said nothing, for Rick Moen verbing weirds language. Then, they arrival for the nouns rick@linuxmafia.com and I speech nothing, for I no verbs. - Peter Ellis From deirdre@deirdre.net Mon Jun 16 11:55:32 2003 Received: from emperor ([198.144.195.190] helo=emperor.deirdre.org ident=root) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19Rz8d-0005HP-00 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 11:55:31 -0700 Received: from deirdre.net (airport.deirdre.org [198.144.195.188]) h5GIoNhG016888 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 11:50:23 -0700 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 11:50:22 -0700 Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: Last Year's Supercomputer Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) From: Deirdre Saoirse Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <0306061235322M.25409@isis> Message-Id: <62838F4A-A02B-11D7-BCEA-000393B986EE@deirdre.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 18:55:32 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 749 Lines: 21 On Monday, June 16, 2003, at 10:23 AM, Mark S Bilk wrote: > Thanks to everyone who offered suggestions in response to my > original message. You've helped me select a much better system > than I had originally chosen! Woohoo! > Note: The people at Central Computer Systems were extremely > helpful, measuring SCSI connectors and having parts shipped free > from both their Newark and SF stores to the Santa Clara one > overnight. Their prices are often only a few dollars over the > best mailorder ones in pricewatch. They are extremely cool. -- _Deirdre http://deirdre.net "Cannot run out of time. There is infinite time. You are finite. Zathras is finite. This....is wrong tool." -- Zathras From rick@linuxmafia.com Mon Jun 16 14:59:33 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19S20i-0008WN-00 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 14:59:32 -0700 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 14:59:32 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20030616215932.GA31509@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030615033010.GJ3541@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030615033010.GJ3541@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Subject: [conspire] Re: IDE RAID cards X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 21:59:33 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1661 Lines: 38 More in that thread (a reply from one of the other hardware engineers): -------- > Hum, the 3ware cards. > > I've been eval'ing these cards, and it's not been the best experience. > Granted, we're use to fibre and SCSI, performance-wise/dependability, > so when we're doing hardware RAID-5, the 3Ware cards sort of suck. > (Use software RAID anyway; it seems to works better.) The problem is the 3Ware cards are the only game in town. No one else has an 8-port card that works half as well. (I wish Adaptec SATA cards would come out now.) The problems of the 3ware card are as follows: 1) Its RAID engine sucks. 2) It's only a 64/33 card, so it tops out around 6 drives in most benchmarks. 3) 3ware's quality is not exactly the greatest. (Be sure to run some sort of file corruption test on a card, before you trust it.) -------- The same guy also made the point earlier in the thread that, basically, if a RAID card costs less than about $50/port, then it's _not_ actually hardware RAID at all, but rather is implementing RAID entirely via the (invariably sucky and proprietary) driver software. If you're going for maximum redundant storage for the buck, what you basically want is a high-throughput card (or cards) with the greatest possible number of distinct ATA channels, without particularly caring about alleged RAID features in the hardware, and then run the Linux MD driver in its RAID5 mode. -- Cheers, First they came for the verbs, and I said nothing, for Rick Moen verbing weirds language. Then, they arrival for the nouns rick@linuxmafia.com and I speech nothing, for I no verbs. - Peter Ellis From mhigashi@myrddin.imat.com Wed Jun 18 20:16:11 2003 Received: from adsl-207-214-84-142.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net ([207.214.84.142] helo=myrddin.imat.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19SpuE-0004ik-00 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 20:16:10 -0700 Received: (from mhigashi@localhost) by myrddin.imat.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5J39jg15470 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 20:09:45 -0700 Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 20:09:45 -0700 From: Mike Higashi To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: Last Year's Supercomputer Message-ID: <20030619030945.GB15323@myrddin.imat.com> References: <0306061235322M.25409@isis> <20030616182935.GS3541@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030616182935.GS3541@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 03:16:13 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1328 Lines: 30 On Mon, Jun 16, 2003 at 11:29:35AM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Mark S Bilk (markbilk@attbi.com): > > > Asus tech support says that running RAM faster than the CPU actually > > slows down performance.... > > > > There's roughly zero risk of that when your CPU is running at 2 GHz. > Remember, that's the whole reason we have L1 and L2 caches. Actually, what he's talking about here is the speeds of the memory and bus that connects the cpu with the memory, aka "Front Side Bus" or FSB. Although 400MHz DDR memory is out now, Mark got 333MHz since his motherboard doesn't support speeds higher than that. The lingo used in memory is also kind of tricky. A 333MHz FSB really has a clock speed of 166MHz, but since DDR (or "double data rate") memory uses both the rising edge and the trailing edge of the clock signal to trigger memory transfers, it has an effective transfer rate of 333MHz. Where it gets really tricky, and perhaps even deceptive, is the memory speeds used with Pentium 4s. Using the same speed of memory they get another doubling of the transfer rate (I'm not sure why, but it may be because it simply uses pairs of DIMMS to increase the bandwidth.) So the P4s and their motherboards make speed claims of 533 or 800MHz, when it's really a 133 or 200MHz clock being multiplied by four. Mike From bill@wards.dyndns.org Wed Jun 18 21:20:38 2003 Received: from smtp2.sasquatch.com ([216.218.236.166]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19Squc-00069y-00 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 21:20:38 -0700 Received: (qmail 25505 invoked by uid 7794); 19 Jun 2003 04:15:22 -0000 Received: from bill@wards.dyndns.org by smtp2.sasquatch.com by uid 7791 with qmail-scanner-1.16 (sophie: 2.14/3.02 Clear:. Processed in 0.040509 secs); 19 Jun 2003 04:15:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO komodo.home.wards.net) (12.234.96.211) by smtp2.sasquatch.com with SMTP; 19 Jun 2003 04:15:22 -0000 Received: from bill by komodo.home.wards.net with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19SqpV-0000gP-00; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 21:15:21 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <16113.14553.534584.733312@komodo.home.wards.net> Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 21:15:21 -0700 From: bill@wards.net (William R Ward) To: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailer: VM 7.03 under Emacs 21.2.1 Sender: Bill Ward Subject: [conspire] RFC: A new LUG for the peninsula? X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 04:20:41 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1875 Lines: 39 I spend most of my days at Oracle in Redwood Shores, and there are a lot of Oracle people who are very much interested in Linux due to Oracle's "Unbreakable Linux" campaign. But most of the people I've talked to don't want to attend BayLISA, SVLUG, BALUG, or EBLUG due to the distance involved. In these discussions it has become apparent to me that there may be a need for a peninsula-based LUG. Further, as a member of the SVLUG speakers mailing list I was surprised to find that we have booked speakers all the way through November of this year. Speakers who would like to give a presentation before then have a limited number of venues where they can give their talks. But I want to make it very clear on one point: it is not my point to fragment or compete with any of the other bay area groups in any way. I think there's a big geographical untapped audience in the Peninsula of people who don't attend those groups due to the distance, and an interest in having a local group. So I'm writing to find out what people think of this idea. I am hoping to have the meetings at the Oracle campus, which is right near highway 101 and the Caltrain. I haven't made any firm plans for the day/time of the meeting, and would be interested in input on that point. So - are you interested in this? Would you like to attend a LUG in Redwood Shores? Would you like to help organize it? Would you like to speak at one of its meetings? Any advice or opinions about how it should be done? Or do you hate the idea? Please write and let me know what you think. Thanks! --Bill. -- William R Ward bill@wards.net http://www.wards.net/~bill/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines." - Emerson From markbilk@attbi.com Wed Jun 18 21:43:59 2003 Received: from rwcrmhc53.comcast.net ([204.127.198.39] helo=rwcrmhc13.attbi.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19SrHC-0006kg-00 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 21:43:59 -0700 Received: from isis (12-234-96-106.client.attbi.com[12.234.96.106](untrusted sender)) by attbi.com (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <2003061904381301500darkhe>; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 04:38:13 +0000 From: "Mark S Bilk" To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: Last Year's Supercomputer Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 21:36:26 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <03061821381248.25409@isis> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 04:43:59 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2994 Lines: 59 In-Reply-To: <20030619030945.GB15323@myrddin.imat.com>; from mhigashi@imat.com on Wed, Jun 18, 2003 at 08:09:45PM -0700 Organization: http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/911 On Wed, Jun 18, 2003 at 08:09:45PM -0700, Mike Higashi wrote: >On Mon, Jun 16, 2003 at 11:29:35AM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: >> Quoting Mark S Bilk (markbilk@attbi.com): >> > Asus tech support says that running RAM faster than the CPU actually >> > slows down performance.... >> >> >> >> There's roughly zero risk of that when your CPU is running at 2 GHz. >> Remember, that's the whole reason we have L1 and L2 caches. > >Actually, what he's talking about here is the speeds of the memory and >bus that connects the cpu with the memory, aka "Front Side Bus" or FSB. >Although 400MHz DDR memory is out now, Mark got 333MHz since his >motherboard doesn't support speeds higher than that. No -- the original bargain motherboard that I had intended to get, ECS K7S5A-Pro, supports only 266MHz (FSB/DDR) CPU and memory. Then someone told me about the FIC AU13 Pro motherboard, using the superior nVidia nForce2 chipset, which, among other things, will run pairs of memory sticks in parallel, effectively doubling the transfer rate (probably the same as described below for Pentium 4). However, I decided to go with the somewhat more expensive Asus A7N8X Deluxe, which uses the same chipset, because it's rated for 400MHz (FSB/DDR) CPU and memory, even though the processor I chose has only a 333MHz FSB bus, since I figured the FIC board might be running closer to its margins than the Asus, and I've been pleased in the past with Asus design and workmanship. I didn't believe FIC when they told me they had never tried a 400MHz CPU in the board; I think they did (why wouldn't they?) and it didn't work. Finally, the reason why I bought 333MHz (DDR) memory to use with the 333MHz (FSB) CPU is that the Asus tech support guy I talked with (a gamer who uses the A7N8X himself) told me that the system actually slows down if the memory is run at a higher speed than the CPU. (I think their support database also says this.) So I saved a few bucks by getting the slower memory. >The lingo used in memory is also kind of tricky. A 333MHz FSB really has >a clock speed of 166MHz, but since DDR (or "double data rate") memory >uses both the rising edge and the trailing edge of the clock signal to >trigger memory transfers, it has an effective transfer rate of 333MHz. > >Where it gets really tricky, and perhaps even deceptive, is the memory >speeds used with Pentium 4s. Using the same speed of memory they get >another doubling of the transfer rate (I'm not sure why, but it may be >because it simply uses pairs of DIMMS to increase the bandwidth.) So the >P4s and their motherboards make speed claims of 533 or 800MHz, when it's >really a 133 or 200MHz clock being multiplied by four. So then is my system only 16% ((400 - 333)/400) slower in actual CPU bus and memory rate, than an "800MHz" P4? Mark From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Jun 18 23:32:41 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19SsyP-00016n-00 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 23:32:41 -0700 Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 23:32:40 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] RFC: A new LUG for the peninsula? Message-ID: <20030619063240.GF1270@linuxmafia.com> References: <16113.14553.534584.733312@komodo.home.wards.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <16113.14553.534584.733312@komodo.home.wards.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Rick Moen X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 06:32:41 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1335 Lines: 28 Bill, you and I have discussed this matter in private mail, and I think your logic is compelling, and that a mid-Peninsula LUG is very much worth trying. I can't quite understand the attitude of people who think this would somehow be an affront to any of the existing groups. This isn't a zero-sum game. But that's all too common among volunteer groups, sad to say. I can offer space on this machine for a mailing list, if you like. You probably would want a dedicated Web server, but webspace is also available here: I once hosted the Web site of the LUG that John Mark Walker started at San Jose State U., when I was helping him get that group going. (Unfortunately, he was immediately hired away by VA Linux Systems, dropped participation completely, and the group collapsed -- but not my fault ;-> ) http://web.archive.org/web/20020104194213/http://linuxmafia.com/sjsu/ When you have a site and day/time for meetings, I'll be glad to work out detailed driving and transit instructions for your events listings. I typically use http://transitinfo.org/ for the latter, and use maps from MapQuest, MapBlast, or maps.yahoo.com. -- Resize your browser so the following line touches both margins!
Best Regards, Rick Moen, rick@linuxmafia.com From bill@wards.dyndns.org Thu Jun 19 00:15:36 2003 Received: from smtp2.sasquatch.com ([216.218.236.166]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19Stdw-00028K-00 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 00:15:36 -0700 Received: (qmail 13310 invoked by uid 7794); 19 Jun 2003 07:10:20 -0000 Received: from bill@wards.dyndns.org by smtp2.sasquatch.com by uid 7791 with qmail-scanner-1.16 (sophie: 2.14/3.02 Clear:. Processed in 0.044065 secs); 19 Jun 2003 07:10:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO komodo.home.wards.net) (12.234.96.211) by smtp2.sasquatch.com with SMTP; 19 Jun 2003 07:10:20 -0000 Received: from bill by komodo.home.wards.net with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19StYp-0005un-00; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 00:10:19 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <16113.25051.254340.756903@komodo.home.wards.net> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 00:10:19 -0700 From: bill@wards.net (William R Ward) To: Rick Moen Subject: Re: [conspire] RFC: A new LUG for the peninsula? In-Reply-To: <20030619063240.GF1270@linuxmafia.com> References: <16113.14553.534584.733312@komodo.home.wards.net> <20030619063240.GF1270@linuxmafia.com> X-Mailer: VM 7.03 under Emacs 21.2.1 Sender: Bill Ward cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 07:15:37 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1413 Lines: 34 Rick Moen writes: >Bill, you and I have discussed this matter in private mail, and I >think your logic is compelling, and that a mid-Peninsula LUG is very >much worth trying. > >I can't quite understand the attitude of people who think this would >somehow be an affront to any of the existing groups. This isn't a >zero-sum game. But that's all too common among volunteer groups, sad to >say. I haven't really had any of that kind of reaction to my RFC's which have been posted here, to SVLUG, and BALUG. I tried to post to BayLISA as well, but my mail to that list is being blocked for some reason and I'm hoping to get that resolved soon. >I can offer space on this machine for a mailing list, if you like. [...] I have hosting arranged already, but thanks for the offer. >When you have a site and day/time for meetings, I'll be glad to work out >detailed driving and transit instructions for your events listings. I >typically use http://transitinfo.org/ for the latter, and use maps from >MapQuest, MapBlast, or maps.yahoo.com. The location will *probably* be at 100 Oracle Parkway, 94065. --Bill. -- William R Ward bill@wards.net http://www.wards.net/~bill/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines." - Emerson From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Jun 19 00:20:38 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19Stin-00029c-00 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 00:20:37 -0700 Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 00:20:37 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] RFC: A new LUG for the peninsula? Message-ID: <20030619072037.GI1270@linuxmafia.com> References: <16113.14553.534584.733312@komodo.home.wards.net> <20030619063240.GF1270@linuxmafia.com> <16113.25051.254340.756903@komodo.home.wards.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <16113.25051.254340.756903@komodo.home.wards.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 07:20:38 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 747 Lines: 19 Quoting William R Ward (bill@wards.net): > I haven't really had any of that kind of reaction to my RFC's which > have been posted here, to SVLUG, and BALUG. I tried to post to > BayLISA as well, but my mail to that list is being blocked for some > reason and I'm hoping to get that resolved soon. If you're in a hurry, I can dig out my copy and post it for you. Just let me know. > The location will *probably* be at 100 Oracle Parkway, 94065. Cool. I personally even consider that within walking distance of CalTrain (though I like long-ish walks). -- Resize your browser so the following line touches both margins!
Best Regards, Rick Moen, rick@linuxmafia.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Jun 19 00:46:58 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19Su8I-0002re-00 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 00:46:58 -0700 Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 00:46:58 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: Last Year's Supercomputer Message-ID: <20030619074657.GL1270@linuxmafia.com> References: <0306061235322M.25409@isis> <20030616182935.GS3541@linuxmafia.com> <20030619030945.GB15323@myrddin.imat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030619030945.GB15323@myrddin.imat.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Rick Moen X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 07:46:58 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 628 Lines: 14 Quoting Mike Higashi (mhigashi@imat.com): > Actually, what he's talking about here is the speeds of the memory and > bus that connects the cpu with the memory, aka "Front Side Bus" or FSB. I realised there was ambiguity there shortly after I posted, but didn't have time to go back and revisit the topic. (I was addressing the statement as posted: With reasonable selection of RAM, there really is zero risk of slowing down a system with a 2 GHz CPU.) -- Cheers, Ever wonder why the _same people_ Rick Moen make up _all_ the conspiracy theories? rick@linuxmafia.com From biow@bigfoot.com Thu Jun 19 13:31:59 2003 Received: from 66-81-7-215.o1.com ([66.81.7.215] helo=dnscache1.pcmagic.net) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19T64d-0005zr-00 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 13:31:59 -0700 Received: (qmail 96356 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2003 20:26:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.pcmagic.net) (66.117.11.13) by 0 with SMTP; 19 Jun 2003 20:26:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 46893 invoked by uid 88); 19 Jun 2003 13:26:08 -0700 Received: from unknown (HELO bigfoot.com) (biow@66.81.149.72) by 0 with SMTP; 19 Jun 2003 13:26:08 -0700 Message-ID: <3EF21C69.80101@bigfoot.com> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 13:26:17 -0700 From: "Edmund J. Biow" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030529 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BALUG List Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: Last Year's Supercomputer Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 20:32:02 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 9326 Lines: 160 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark S Bilk" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 9:36 PM Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: Last Year's Supercomputer > >> > Asus tech support says that running RAM faster than the CPU actually > >> > slows down performance.... > No -- the original bargain motherboard that I had intended to get, > ECS K7S5A-Pro, supports only 266MHz (FSB/DDR) CPU and memory. > Then someone told me about the FIC AU13 Pro motherboard, using the > superior nVidia nForce2 chipset, which, among other things, will > run pairs of memory sticks in parallel, effectively doubling the > transfer rate (probably the same as described below for Pentium 4). The benchmarks I've seen indicate that the boost you get from the dual channel thingy is fairly marginal (2-4% in real life situations). http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/nforce2-1vs2channels/ The Socket A Via KT400 chipset without the dual memory channels looks like it hangs pretty tough with the Nforce2 in most things and the boards seem to average $15-20 less. > However, I decided to go with the somewhat more expensive Asus > A7N8X Deluxe, which uses the same chipset, because it's rated for > 400MHz (FSB/DDR) CPU and memory, even though the processor I chose > has only a 333MHz FSB bus, since I figured the FIC board might be > running closer to its margins than the Asus, and I've been pleased > in the past with Asus design and workmanship. I didn't believe FIC > when they told me they had never tried a 400MHz CPU in the board; > I think they did (why wouldn't they?) and it didn't work. An excellent choice, IMO (& I suspect I'm the bloke who recommended the cheapie FIC AU 13 mobo with the retail Athlon XP2200+ for $140 from Fry's). The Asus A7N8X is maybe the most popular board out there in the hardware enthusiast community. Various stripes of Epox Nforce2 boards are well beloved by the overclocking crowd. The Nforce2 that I'm looking at now is the $90 delivered Shuttle MN31N with built in dual monitor GeForce4 MX video & very high quality "Sound Storm" on board audio, plus 6 USB 2.0 ports, onboard Firewire IEEE 1394 & built in LAN. It only has 3 PCI slots & only supports up to 333 FSB, but what can I say, I'm a cheap SOB, as witnessed by my recent prestigious award on this forum. http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduct.asp?DEPA=&submit=Go&description=MN31N > >The lingo used in memory is also kind of tricky. A 333MHz FSB really has > >a clock speed of 166MHz, but since DDR (or "double data rate") memory > >uses both the rising edge and the trailing edge of the clock signal to > >trigger memory transfers, it has an effective transfer rate of 333MHz. > > > >Where it gets really tricky, and perhaps even deceptive, is the memory > >speeds used with Pentium 4s. Using the same speed of memory they get > >another doubling of the transfer rate (I'm not sure why, but it may be > >because it simply uses pairs of DIMMS to increase the bandwidth.) So the > >P4s and their motherboards make speed claims of 533 or 800MHz, when it's > >really a 133 or 200MHz clock being multiplied by four. > > So then is my system only 16% ((400 - 333)/400) slower in actual > CPU bus and memory rate, than an "800MHz" P4? All these artificial benchmarks really don't tally well with real-world performance, I'm afraid. According to the benches I've seen the latest "800 MHz" Intel dual memory channel PIV motherboard chipsets (Canterwood, Granite Bay, Springdale) own the Socket A competition in terms of memory performance (see http://www.aceshardware.com/read.jsp?id=55000278), but when you actually compare system performance, the difference just doesn't seem very important. For instance, one site compared the latest & greatest hyperthreaded PIV 3.06 GHz in a i875P/ "Canterwood" chipset board with dual DDR 400 running at 400 MHz to your new board with a Barton 3200 & the same memory, but running at 333 FSB. The result? The AMD rig is better at AutoCAD, while the Intel set up bested it in 7 out of 10 games. http://www.aceshardware.com/read.jsp?id=55000284 Also see: http://www.motherboards.org/articlesd/hardware-reviews/1249_1.html It is worth remembering that the Athlon CPU actually runs at 2.2 GHz, about 72% of the clock speed of the P4 3.2 & gobbles 60.4 to 76.8 watts compared to 81 to 105 watts for the Intel chip. More watts translates into more heat, which in turn means a more expensive power supply & more noise to cool the sucker down, remember. One benchmark that is most reflective of what most non-gamers actually do with their computers is the SYSmark Office Productivity 2002 (which uses a bunch of real world MS Office applications, browsers, Winzip, McAfee AV, Netscape 6, voice recognition, etc.) In this, and similar test like the Business Winmark, etc. the Athlons have always bested the Pentium IV. In fact, the Athlon Barton XP3000+ (2167 MHz) beats the PIV 3.2 GHz in the SYSmark using your board vs. a Intel D850EMV2 - Intel 850E Chipset with extremely expensive RAMBUS PC1066 Samsung RIMMs. http://www.anandtech.com/cpu/showdoc.html?i=1783&p=11 Or look at this comparison with the similar Business Winstone 2002, where the AMD Athlon XP 3000+ (2.167GHz) Barton gets 39.9 vs. 33.6 for the Intel Pentium 4 3.00GHz (875P-800MHz): http://www.anandtech.com/cpu/showdoc.html?i=1810&p=6 But it is in terms of bang for the buck that AMD solutions absolutely dominate competing Intel products. The mid to low range AMD processors are MUCH cheaper than Intel CPUs that offer anything like comparable performance. For instance an Athlon XP1700+ goes for about $42 and performs better than a Pentium IV-M 2 GHz that costs 3-4x as much (depending upon architecture). Oh, & as and experiment I put that processor on my 2 year old Epox KT266A motherboard the day before yesterday and simply increased the FSB from 133 to 166 in the BIOS. It was stable and cool (42c after cranking 3 SETI units in 10 hours with a quiet $6 SVC GC 68 fan) & out-benches a PIV 2.4GHz that costs 4x as much and even at default speed does about as well at the Business Winstone 2002 as a Intel Pentium 4 2.80GHz (875P-533MHz) costing $268. And the fact that I can even still find CPUs to upgrade my older boards is another reason I generally go for AMD systems, even if Intel is frequently (not always) the performance leader. Intel keeps switching its architecture around in order to force you to upgrade motherboards every time you hang a new processor on the system. They abandoned the Socket 7 for the proprietary Slot 1 CPU when they introduced the Pentium II (233 MHz). They didn't want anyone else to be able to make boards for their processors (AMD rarely makes motherboards, & then generally only when other companies aren't making motherboards for their processors because they are being overtly intimidated by Intel). AMD continued to support the Socket 7 right up to the K6-2 550 MHz (& you can still get a K6-2 500 for $18 delivered). Intel saw that it was losing out some sales to these "Super Socket 7" rigs, so it introduced a Celeron (a Pentium with the cache purposely crippled) to compete at that price point, but introduced a new architecture (Socket 370) so folks wouldn't buy a Celery and wait for PII-PIII prices to fall (which, by the way, they never did, because Intel simply stops producing older CPUs rather AMD's practice of continuing to crank them out at a lower price point, so you can buy a AMD Duron 950 for $28 delivered, but would have to pony up $200 if you wanted to upgrade your old Slot 1 board to a PIII 800 MHz). In the mean time I've just about lost track of all the squirrelly changes that Intel has made to its chipsets in the interests of market segmentation or forcing you to upgrade boards (Coppermine, Tualatin, Socket 423, Socket 478, probably some others) while AMD has kept its several year old Socket A design, so you could still run a Duron 600 on the latest Nvidia2 board. (AMD will soon be moving to the 32-bit Opteron for servers, so they had to introduce a new Socket 940 form factor.) As a result of all this the majority of the hobbyiest-gamer-hardware enthusiast folks tend to go AMD, while Intel is stalwart among corporate ass-coverers & big system builders like Dell who rely on the power of the "Intel Inside" brand recognition to crank up sales. If money is absolutely no object, by all means buy Intel. The popular arstechnica site, for instance, recommends for its $10,000 (hardware only price) "Godbox" a pair of Intel Xeon 3.06GHz 533mhz FSB retail boxes ($707 each) on a $392 Supermicro X5DAE board. However for their "Hot Rod" (best bang for buck power system) they recommend something remarkably close to what Mark ended up with, an Epox Nforce2 EP-8RDA+ for $85 and an OEM Athlon XP2500+ with 512 MB of PC2700. Total hardware system cost with $114 speakers & $280 monitor: $1258. The "Budget" system recommendation is also very good in my opinion, an Asus A7N266-VM (Nforce 220 chipset) with an OEM XP1900+. System cost exclusive of monitor & extra video card (the built in Geforce2 MX graphics is excellent unless you are a hardcore gamer): $400. Ed From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Jun 19 18:00:37 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19TAGa-0000TO-00 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 18:00:36 -0700 Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 18:00:36 -0700 To: BALUG List Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: Last Year's Supercomputer Message-ID: <20030620010036.GA1427@linuxmafia.com> References: <3EF21C69.80101@bigfoot.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3EF21C69.80101@bigfoot.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Rick Moen X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 01:00:37 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2702 Lines: 54 Quoting Edmund J. Biow (biow@bigfoot.com): > I'm a cheap SOB, as witnessed by my recent prestigious award on > this forum. Feels good to be a certified Cheap Bastard[tm], doesn't it? > All these artificial benchmarks really don't tally well with > real-world performance, I'm afraid. According to the benches I've > seen the latest "800 MHz" Intel dual memory channel PIV motherboard > chipsets (Canterwood, Granite Bay, Springdale) own the Socket A > competition in terms of memory performance (see > http://www.aceshardware.com/read.jsp?id=55000278), but when you > actually compare system performance, the difference just doesn't seem > very important. For instance, one site compared the latest & greatest > hyperthreaded PIV 3.06 GHz in a i875P/ "Canterwood" chipset board > with dual DDR 400 running at 400 MHz to your new board with a Barton > 3200 & the same memory, but running at 333 FSB. The result? The AMD > rig is better at AutoCAD, while the Intel set up bested it in 7 out of > 10 games. http://www.aceshardware.com/read.jsp?id=55000284 Also see: > http://www.motherboards.org/articlesd/hardware-reviews/1249_1.html Both Microsoft OS-based -- and I'll bet that the benchmarks, if they're like just about all the other ones I've seen, involved singletasking single-user operation. This is why I say that benchmarking is one of my favourite (even if somewhat outre) forms of fiction. The results might extrapolate somewhat to Linux _if_ your primary interest is gaming, and it seems that this actually is what that lot really _are_ obsessing over. I do love Super Socket 7 rigs, even though they're a bit antique, these days. My K6/233 is good enough for any functionality I care about, especially given that it's optimised for heavily loaded I/O (unlike typical Windows-gamer-slanted systems). If I were building a new system today, I'd obviously not choose the same components, but I'd certainly tune its strengths similarly: fast RAM access, decent but not supercharged CPU, decent 2D-accelerated video using hardware that has excellent XFree86 support, and a kick-ass disk array. Or I might satisfy myself with just getting a faster K6 CPU replacement, since they're still around. > One benchmark that is most reflective of what most non-gamers actually > do with their computers is the SYSmark Office Productivity 2002 (which > uses a bunch of real world MS Office applications, browsers, Winzip, > McAfee AV, Netscape 6, voice recognition, etc.) Well, that might reflect what singletasking, single-user Win32 non-gamers actually do with their computers. -- Cheers, Rick Moen Age, baro, fac ut gaudeam. rick@linuxmafia.com From graham@calbird.org Fri Jun 20 15:27:46 2003 Received: from calbird.org ([66.218.45.99] helo=mail.calbird.org) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19TUME-0002Y1-00 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 15:27:46 -0700 Received: from MooCow.opengroup.org (graham2 [192.168.100.132]) h5KMIXWY030477 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 15:18:33 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.0.20030620152139.00b4c610@mail.calbird.org> X-Sender: graham@mail.calbird.org (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 15:27:33 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com From: Graham Bird Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: by amavis-milter (http://amavis.org/) Subject: [conspire] Wireless setup help needed X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 22:27:47 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 763 Lines: 23 I'm trying to configure a Toshiba 4300 notebook with a Lucent Silver wireless card running on Redhat 9. The system is up and installed OK. The card is recognized when I insert it and can be configured (using the network wizard) When I try to activate the card (using network config) I get an error message: Cannot activate network device eth0 Error for wireless request "Set Mode" (8B06) SET failed on device eth0; Invalid argument Error for wireless request "Set Frequence" (8B04) Set failed on device eth0; Operation not supported. Determining IP information for eth0... failed. The access point is named and has encryption set. I have entered both into the wizard. The card is alive (has a single light on). Any help would be appreciated. Cheers From mhigashi@myrddin.imat.com Fri Jun 20 15:51:33 2003 Received: from adsl-207-214-84-142.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net ([207.214.84.142] helo=myrddin.imat.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19TUjB-0002vy-00 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 15:51:31 -0700 Received: (from mhigashi@localhost) by myrddin.imat.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5KMo1q32158 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 15:50:01 -0700 Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 15:50:00 -0700 From: Mike Higashi To: Cabalists Message-ID: <20030620225000.GA32073@myrddin.imat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i Subject: [conspire] InstallFest Saturday 6/28 X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 22:51:33 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1344 Lines: 27 Hello, fellow Linux freaks. The next Linux InstallFest is scheduled for Saturday, June 28th, as part of the Robert Austin Computer Show being held at the Oakland Convention Center. Yesterday I called them and let them know about it, and they will include an announcement in the next email they send out. This means that the news of the InstallFest will reach a lot more people than usual, so we can expect a heavier turnout of folks wanting help. So we can use as much assistance as possible. Please come out and help us convert people to Linux! Even if you do not feel that you know enough to help others install or configure their systems, we can also use help answering questions from passers-by regarding Linux. It's also nice to just be able to spend time together with your fellow Linux freaks, so don't be shy. The computer show runs from 10am to 4pm, if you come early and tell the folks there you are with the CABAL, you can get in for free. (You can also get in for free by subscribing to their email announcments.) This particular show will be in the smaller East Hall at the Oakland Convention Center. If you're bringing equipment to demo Linux, you'll need to use the loading dock on 11th Street. We'll still have a full four-booth island, so there should be enough space for us to work. Hope to see you there, Mike Higashi From rick@linuxmafia.com Fri Jun 20 16:22:27 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19TVD9-00044c-00 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 16:22:27 -0700 Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 16:22:26 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Wireless setup help needed Message-ID: <20030620232226.GR1427@linuxmafia.com> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20030620152139.00b4c610@mail.calbird.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030620152139.00b4c610@mail.calbird.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Rick Moen X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 23:22:27 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 3287 Lines: 79 Quoting Graham Bird (graham@calbird.org): > I'm trying to configure a Toshiba 4300 notebook with a Lucent Silver > wireless card running on Redhat 9. > > The system is up and installed OK. The card is recognized when I insert it > and can be configured (using the network wizard) > > When I try to activate the card (using network config) I get an error > message: > > Cannot activate network device eth0 > Error for wireless request "Set Mode" (8B06) > SET failed on device eth0; Invalid argument > Error for wireless request "Set Frequence" (8B04) > Set failed on device eth0; Operation not supported. > > Determining IP information for eth0... failed. > > The access point is named and has encryption set. I have entered both into > the wizard. The card is alive (has a single light on). When I had to solve this sort of problem with my laptop (not Red Hat), its Lucent Gold card, and my wife's Apple Airport, I first verified that "lsmod" shows the necessary drivers inserted by the PCMCIA /sbin/cardmgr daemon: orinoco_cs 4680 2 orinoco 29568 0 [orinoco_cs] hermes 3296 0 [orinoco_cs orinoco] (You should actually hear beeping when you put the card in, and then a second time shortly afterwards when cardmgr matches the card's ID against one of the entries in /etc/pcmcia/config .) Anyhow, that much should make the device show up in /sbin/ifconfig's output as an ethernet device[1]: guido:/etc/pcmcia# /sbin/ifconfig eth0 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:60:1D:F1:DB:41 UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1 RX packets:478618 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 TX packets:644997 errors:2333 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 collisions:0 txqueuelen:100 RX bytes:158213926 (150.8 MiB) TX bytes:97134288 (92.6 MiB) Interrupt:3 Base address:0x100 lo Link encap:Local Loopback inet addr:127.0.0.1 Mask:255.0.0.0 UP LOOPBACK RUNNING MTU:16436 Metric:1 RX packets:9708 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 TX packets:9708 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 collisions:0 txqueuelen:0 RX bytes:3177900 (3.0 MiB) TX bytes:3177900 (3.0 MiB) At that point, all that remains is configuring the network device with the correct network information. Here's how I did it at home: /sbin/iwconfig eth0 essid "networkname" key 0D64562506 (I've substituted a different network name and altered the network password's hex value.) If I were in your shoes, I'd attempt a similar approach of getting things done manually, verify that you can ping something on the other side of the link, and then you're mostly done, having proved that the problem is solveable. At that point, all you need do is reverse-engineer how to enter the information correctly in "wizards" or such-odd things. [1] I think if you use some other (earlier? later?) linux-wlan drivers than I use, it actually shows up as /dev/wvlan0, or /dev/wlan0, not /dev/eth0 . -- Cheers, The cynics among us might say: "We laugh, Rick Moen monkeyboys -- Linux IS the mainstream UNIX now! rick@linuxmafia.com MuaHaHaHa!" but that would be rude. -- Jim Dennis From mhigashi@myrddin.imat.com Fri Jun 20 23:43:59 2003 Received: from adsl-207-214-84-142.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net ([207.214.84.142] helo=myrddin.imat.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19Tc6Q-0004Gc-00 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 23:43:58 -0700 Received: (from mhigashi@localhost) by myrddin.imat.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5L6gej02680 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 23:42:40 -0700 Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 23:42:40 -0700 From: Mike Higashi To: Cabalists Subject: Re: [conspire] InstallFest Saturday 6/28 Message-ID: <20030621064240.GA2658@myrddin.imat.com> References: <20030620225000.GA32073@myrddin.imat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030620225000.GA32073@myrddin.imat.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 06:43:59 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 271 Lines: 6 By the way, I also went over the wording of the announcement of the InstallFest that the Robert Austin folks use. I had them change the email address the installees are supposed to use from going to Rick's old server, hugin.imat.com, to installers@linuxmafia.com . Mike From rick@linuxmafia.com Sat Jun 28 05:51:24 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19WFAq-0000bT-00 for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2003 05:51:24 -0700 Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 05:51:24 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20030628125123.GB2300@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Subject: [conspire] Saturday CABAL installfest, Oakland Convention Center X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 12:51:26 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 632 Lines: 16 Just a quick reminder that today's the day for CABAL's installfest at the Oakland Convention Center (inside the Robert Austin Computer Show). Anyone who wants to come help, or _get_ help, or just hang out and browse the Robert Austin show's vendor tables, will be most welcome to join us. Details at: http://www.robertaustin.com/directions.htm#oakland http://linuxmafia.com/cabal/ See you there! -- Cheers, First they came for the verbs, and I said nothing, for Rick Moen verbing weirds language. Then, they arrival for the nouns rick@linuxmafia.com and I speech nothing, for I no verbs. - Peter Ellis From rick@linuxmafia.com Sat Jun 28 05:53:32 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19WFCu-0000fP-00 for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2003 05:53:32 -0700 Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 05:53:32 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Saturday CABAL installfest, Oakland Convention Center Message-ID: <20030628125331.GU1427@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030628125123.GB2300@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030628125123.GB2300@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 12:53:32 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 643 Lines: 19 Quoting myself: > Just a quick reminder that today's the day for CABAL's installfest at > the Oakland Convention Center (inside the Robert Austin Computer Show). > Anyone who wants to come help, or _get_ help, or just hang out and > browse the Robert Austin show's vendor tables, will be most welcome to > join us. > > Details at: > http://www.robertaustin.com/directions.htm#oakland > http://linuxmafia.com/cabal/ D'oh! And, of course, the regular CABAL meeting immediately after that at my house in Menlo Park, 6 PM - midnight. -- Cheers, find / -user your -name base -print | xargs chown us:us Rick Moen rick@linuxmafia.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Jun 29 12:37:31 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19WhzO-0004Fr-00 for ; Sun, 29 Jun 2003 12:37:30 -0700 Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 12:37:30 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20030629193730.GA16327@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Subject: [conspire] (forw) Re: linux & viruses X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 19:37:31 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 23650 Lines: 467 Aargh! ;-> With luck, this will be amusing and possibly interesting, despite my venting grouchiness in it. If y'all want to further discuss this, that's fine by me, but I'll probably not participate for reasons that will become apparent. My correspondent had written to me with his reaction to http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/#virus (and related essays following that) on my "rants" page. This was my reply: ----- Forwarded message from Rick Moen ----- Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 12:01:05 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: [a good guy I know, whose name I'm snipping] Subject: Re: linux & viruses Hi, [name snipped]. Thanks (er, sort of) for your note. I'm going to start polite, and by the time you reach the bottom, I hope you're not going to be annoyed, even though this is not really going to go well -- because, with luck, you'll understand why I don't enjoy doing these things and very much wish them to _go away_. A prefatory note, and please don't take this as criticism but rather just as background information: The usual reason I write those "rants" is basically to write about a subject for the _last_ time, because it's a subject I've gotten sick to death of. In other words, my intention is to write something I can subsequently refer people to _instead_ of discussing the matter yet again. So, I'm glad to discuss this with you once. If our discussion suggests ways I might easily improve the essay to make the points clearer and reduce the likelihood of people wanting to re-argue them with me, I will actually be grateful. If you end up deciding I'm bloody well wrong ;-> , then that's perfectly fine but I'll be fine with discussing the matter through only a single round, probably. In short, the purpose of my rant essays is _not_ to find out whether people agree with me. It is _not_ to convince people. It is to express my current views on particular subjects unambiguously and definitively so that people (ideally) understand those views and I can avoid further recapitulating of discussions I long ago got tired of repeating. You got that? In that context, you'll (with luck) understand my sometimes becoming grouchy when people nonetheless want to go through this stuff _yet again_, despite my determined, specific efforts to dispose of the subject. Quoting [name snipped]: > COUNTERPOINT: Lindows runs everything as root, including the > mail-reading. I'm told that it no longer defaults upon installation to auto-login as the root user. Until I heard this, my Web pages listed it as the only Linux distribution _specifically recommended against_, and I had a policy of letting people know that. That having been said, until the recent (reported) change to its installation routine, LindowsOS _did_ nonetheless have full features for operating normally with distinctions between ordinary and privileged accounts and ownership/rights to match. The only objectionable feature was a display manager with autologin capability whose installation default was to autologin the root user. (In consequence, even in those days, it was a dead-easy misfeature for the admin to correct. Its fault lay in encouraging users to do the wrong thing, _not_ in substantively preventing them from doing the right thing.) > Many (most?) single-user Linux systems are run as root interactively > for non-critical tasks. I and the entire rest of the long-time Linux user community strongly discourage this practice whenever we encounter it, as part of the acculturation process. It's the equivalent of putting copper pennies in all your fuseholders because you get tired of replacing fuses. We attempt to enforce the acculturation process through, among other things, _always_ stating assistance advice in terms that emphasise proper use of privileged [E]UIDs, and _always_ extending basically zero sympathy to people who damage their systems by reckless and needless use of root authority. We treat them basically like kids who've ridden their bicycles facing backwards, crashed into concrete walls, and gotten concussions: We're vaguely sympathetic, hope they get well soon, and (when they're conscious again) will politely say "Gee, that hurt, didn't it? Would you like some help learning not to hurt yourself in the future?" > It's just too annoying having to context-switch all the time just to > install a new package from CPAN. o "su -" o "sudo [foo]" o "ssh -X username@localhost" (for X11 apps) I'm sorry, that's simply no excuse. Not for you, not for me, not for new users either. You'll get the exact same bare-minimal sympathy tinged with pity that I'd extend to a raw newbie, when (not if) you screw your system. Please note: My essays already address the above "counterpoint" of yours. > POINT: A virus picked up by a non-root user couldn't use an exploit > because this would require a library of exploits, which violates the > philosophy of viruses. This is _nothing at all_ like what I said. It's a really bad sign when the reader starts making noises like this, failing hideously to comprehend basic points. As we will see, things go downhill from here. > COUNTERPOINT: I didn't get this one at all. It seems not. (Hmm, that sounded _much_ harsher than I intended. Apologies; this really is a topic I'm kinda tired of. Not your fault, so I shouldn't take it out on you.) (Actually, I do get harsher by far, but that's yet to come.) > Each exploit tends to be very small and the shell-code and > post-penetration code would be shared. I bet with a 150KB attachment > you could nail at least 50-100 vulnerabilities. Tell you what: Write it and solve the problem of unobtrusive distribution _and_ getting users dumb enough to run it. Then we'll talk. Please note that automated local use of such exploits assumes people with vulnerable software installed such that it runs privileged. One of the other things we old-timers try to educate people about is the risks inherently posed by SUID/GUID root & equivalent binaries, and the need to minimise their number. For example, I always advise new admins to do: # find / -perm -4000 -print > ~/SUIDS # find / -perm -2000 -print > ~/SGIDS ...and then remove those bits from any binary without a known need for them. (The admin can restore that bit if it subsequently turns out to be needed.) > POINT: Linux is too diverse to effectively attack. This is _not_ what I said. I said diversity is one factor among many that makes wide attacks unlikely to succeed. > COUNTERPOINT: There are a small number of distributions responsible for > the majority of Linux deployments. RedHat seems an obvious candidate for > targeting. If you could penetrate a RedHat system, you'd nail a large > percentage of Linux deployments. One, I'm couching my essay at the intelligent reader, not the moron, do-something-because-the-herd-does reader. Two, even Red Hat systems are diverse, _especially_ if intelligently administered. E.g., even though RH through 7.x came with BIND8, only morons failed to replace that with BIND9 or something better such as MaraDNS -- because BIND8's fatal long-term faults were way past notorious at that point. Ditto sendmail versus Postfix or Exim. Ditto that piece of shit wu-ftpd, for which _even_ perennially clueless Red Hat, Inc. now ships (right on the base CDs) vs-ftpd as an alternative choice. Three, since much theoretical "virus" attacks rely on a particular process being not only installed but also resident in memory (e.g., attacks that rely on malware mail being received by a particular MUA), useful diversity exists in the fact that, e.g., there are dozens of popular MUAs from the 115 known for Linux (see: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/applications-muas.html) and (e.g.) there are some half-dozen popular Web browser for Linux with decreased likelihood of common failure modes: Mozilla 1.2.x, Mozilla-Firebird, Galeon, Konqueror, Opera, Netscape Communicator, Dillo. At this point, _even_ Red Hat, often historically the most irresponsibly and cluelessly designed of major distributions, no longer pushes users towards kitchen-sink installations. Therefore, many installations, especially those installed thoughtfully, no longer present such a target-rich and uniform environment. (Please note that Red Hat exists for SPARC, PPC, and Alpha in addition to i386, though these were always minority CPU platforms.) It is also the case that exploits are not necessarily backwards compatible, in that a canned exploit against package foo v. 5.2 will not necessarily work against all foo v. < 5.2. So, granting that i386 "Red Hat" (which of course is actually a multitude of release versions, about which see the final point in the prior paragraph) is believed to be very popular -- which is an unproven assumption, given that counting actual in-use numbers of installations is known to be a very difficult statistical problem -- the uniformity only of those systems is certainly greatly less than you would imply. Last, relevant to your current point, we come around to what happens if a Red Hat (any release version) meets even _bare minimum_ standards of marginal competence at maintenance. E.g., he activates his free-of-charge subscription to Red Hat Network, which "pushes" to his system security updates issued by Red Hat, Inc. for known vulnerabilities. This has in fact been the _norm_ for all Red Hat releases of the last few years, going a considerable distance to repair Red Hat's previously richly deserved reputation for abysmal security. My fairly firm recollection is that recent versions' installers make this the _path of least resistance_ for even inept admins. So, I'm left wondering what hypothetical canned exploits you believe would tend to be effective against randomly selected Red Hat (any recent release version) installations -- given the pretty nearly 100% automatic security updating process in place by default. So, in short, it looks to me like a case of radically less substance than statements like "If you could penetrate a RedHat system, you'd nail a large percentage of Linux deployments" might suggest at first glance. > POINT: Emacs macros are stored in plaintext, making it less likely > someone would be so silly as to execute it. > COUNTERPOINT: So are .VBS files on windows, and yet this remains one of > the primary attack vectors. You are ignoring the central point: MS-Windows users' culture is so brain-dead that it doesn't occur to those users to _look_ at such a file, because they've been trained to treat files as things you "open" using the association with the concealed-by-default filename extension. (This term "open" conflates the vitally distinct concepts of executing and viewing a file.) > Just because you can read the (obfuscated) source doesn't mean someone > won't click on the "MichaelJackson.mp3.vbs". One key point -- which I'm quite sure is actually explicit in my #virus essay (and the three related ones that follow) -- is that Unix culture reinforces the protections afforded by the technology, and vice-versa. In Unix, if you receive an executable in your MUA, you cannot "double-click" on it. You can save it to /tmp or ~, but that will save it _without_ the executable bit by default. (You can verify, if you like, that all 115 available Linux MUAs observe this culturally enforced tradition; I've spot-checked them: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/applications-muas.html .) With MUAs, in theory you can also subvert the fuzzy distinction that sometimes exists between data and executable bitstreams, e.g., using a malware PDF or PostScript attachment to an e-mail, trusting that some MUAs might hand them off in some insufficiently cautious way to an external application via MIME handling. However, MUA authors and Linux-distribution assemblers are somewhat kept on their toes regarding this matter by, well, people like me who are aware of the hazards and check how the files are handled. (This, again, is relevant to my point about Unix culture and technology creating mutually reinforcing protections.) By the way, are we having fun, yet? These discussions pretty much always tend to become interminable because they tend to branch out from the ostensibly simple question of viruses into pretty much every aspect of security. My #virus, #virus2, (etc.) essays _started_ out being simple, short, and clear, as originally written. Lots of people then have written in over the years, editorialising on either things they think I've been unclear about or points they think I should have covered -- so, I've patched the text here, extended it there, and thus it's arrived at its current over-long state: arguably the expository equivalent of spaghetti code. And somehow, that very length and complexity makes it easier for _additional_ readers to miscomprehend fundamentally (or miss) the key points. So, basically I can't win. Some day, I may decide to refactor the text, and basically atttempt to rewrite the stuff top to bottom, to reorganise and revamp it. But that will take hideous amounts of time to do properly, so it won't happen soon. > One thing that makes Linux a little more scary from a user-security > perspective is the lack of special extensions identifying a file as being > executable. That's not a bug; that's a feature. The notion of identifying a file's nature by its filename extension is _precisely_ one of the worst ways in which MS-Windows tends to lead users down the garden path, even ignoring the matter of filename extensions being concealed from the user by default. Practically all of the e-mailed MS-Windows trojans, for example, rely on misleading the user using faked "extensions" in reliance on this misfeature, e.g., by naming the malware file "MichaelJackson.mp3.vbs". Or, worse, the file will mislead the user by having MIME typing different from the filename extension, leveraging the misdesign of Microsoft Corporation abortions like MS-Internet Explorer [spit] that sometimes incomprehensibly decide to heed the latter and ignore the former. Moreover, an MS-Windows user who actually _does_ attempt to take responsibility for executing code, and who overcomes MS-Windows's default concealing of filename extensions, typically doesn't have a prayer of actually learning to recognise all the executable types' mind-numbing array of three-letter extensions. Consider (again, since you yourself raised the point) how the ".VBS" debacle decimated the MS-Windows user community after Microsoft Corp. sprung the MS-Windows Scripting Engine on them with little notice. But mostly, what kind of incompetent designer would actually _willingly_ base file typing on filename extensions? That's just hideously bad engineering. The Unix tradition of using magic(1) and the stat(2) system call -- and the MIME extension of that system -- are both easier to manage, less painfully cluttered, and more difficult to abuse. > But on Linux I could have a ".mp3" file that was actually an ELF and > the OS (if the file was +x'ed) would happily run it. Haven't you ever heard the "Doctor, doctor, it _hurts_ when I do this" technical-support joke? What sort of moron would chmod u+x an untrustworthy binary file and run it? Have you learned nothing about elementary system operations? How the hell would an .mp3 otherwise acquire the executable bit? And what horribly broken "OS" [sic] code would then be willing to run it without running stat(2) on it to check its header to find out what it _really_ was? > Namely, the fact that the file is actually an ELF executable that the > OS knows how to natively execute is visible only to the kernel, not > the user. This makes me uncomfortable. Then, I suspect you re-think the matter from top to bottom, because, if you think storing file-typing in three-letter filename extensions instead of more rigourously determining it from direct inspection of the file contents using stat(2) makes you _safer_ (!), then you are dangerously deluded. > Because now, a friend could send to you a .JPG file to look at. If the > mailreader was silly enough, you could find yourself running an > unintended program. There are 115 Linux MUAs. Find me one that's that horribly broken, and the Linux community will pummel its author into a bloody pulp. What, do you _actually_ think nobody's been thinking about this, and freakin' well thinking it over in great detail for decades, [name snipped]? Because we have, and it merely seems like you're new to the party and are presuming to raise alarms over _elementary_ aspects of matters we've been working hard on nailing down tight when you were not paying attention. > You seem to have a general philosophy that Linux users are smart. This is _not_ what I said. In fact, when you finally get around to reading and comprehending what I _did_ say, you will perhaps get my point about how some protection is built into the technology and some into the culture. The two are self-reinforcing, and both slowly and gradually seep into new users. Some users insist on learning the hard way, e.g., by wielding the root account needlessly. Those people get educated somewhat by people saying "don't do that" and telling them how to avoid the mistake, but often are primarily taught by being banged on the head by Papa Darwin and _then_ being reminded by the rest of us "Well, that _hurt_, didn't it? Would you like me to tell you how to stop aiming at your foot, now?" > It is true that right now, since Linux is harder to set up and use, > that Linux users do tend to have a deeper understanding of computing & > security than Windows users. But with the inevitable success of RedHat > / Lindows / other distributions that make it easy for grandma to be > running Linux without knowing it, do you really expect this argument > to continue to hold water? Can you really remain confident in > statements like "A LINUX user surely wouldn't do XYZ."? This paragraph of yours, more than any of your others, suggests strongly to me that you didn't bother to attentively read what I wrote at all, because I address (in my essays) this misperception (misconception) in very strong and colourful terms, if memory serves. Let's see, where was that. Ah, here: Last, you say, surely sysadmins stupid enough to take dangerous actions as root must be becoming the norm instead of a rarity, given Linux's current explosive growth -- thus undermining the whole security model. This, too, is true -- but there are powerful forces at work to educate new sysadmins: The administrative tools, themselves, tend to stress that the root account is dangerous and should be used minimally and carefully, as does Linux's new-user documentation. Also, those sysadmins resistant to learning this message via such avenues inevitably learn it the hard way, by destroying or crippling their systems repeatedly -- until they learn. In that regard, viruses do not even stand out from the general likelihood of repeatedly destroying one's system, until one learns to not do unwise things as root. The difference between "hostile" executables (such as viruses) and others is academic, when a root-account user can already shoot off his foot or other vital parts, with one of myriad, brief commands. Put the other way, the same survival skills by which you, as a novice sysadmin, will cease destroying your system directly will also, more generally, dissuade you from doing unwise things as root, thereby incidentally keeping viruses and their kin off your system. Or, put a third way, the Linux community would see no real distinction between novices who (as root) infect their systems (if this should ever happen to significant numbers of them), and those who accidentally type some variation on "rm -rf /" (delete all files) while logged in as root: Both are a result of inexperience and lack of caution. In both cases, education, attention, and experience are a 100% effective cure. Now, will you freakin' well _read_ the thing? I fscking well shouldn't have had to basically _read it to you_, now, should I? > One point that you fail to bring up is the possibility of multiple vectors, > of which email viruses are but one portion - something more akin to the > worm/virus hybrids that terrorized Windows networks. This would be basically a dumb digression: Again, the fact that you even suggest this suggests that you haven't understood key points of my essay. The fact that mail-delivered malware could theoretically visit this-or-that apocalyptic terror upon an unsuspecting world _if executed_ becomes a matter of no interest if it simply doesn't get executed. My essay goes into the cutural and technical protections that -- through no accident whatsoever -- make it unlikely that such code will be executed. > A user opens up an infected mail ^^^^^ When you say "open", are you indulging that brain-damaged Redmondian mindset that conflates both viewing and executing under the single umbrella concept of "opening" a file? As mentioned previously, this sort of diseased user culture, more than anything else, is what keeps the MS-Windows user community helpless to protect its own interests. In fact, on all 115 Linux MUAs (in both their separate state and as packaged by various distributions), what happens what a user views an e-mail is continually subjected to paranoid scrutiny by people like me, who care rather considerably that this area not become one in which screw-ups are tolerated -- and accidental ones are caught early and corrected. > Most intranets are notoriously poorly secured. So, what else is new? [name snipped], I fscking well hope you don't think you're teaching something new, here, to a professional WAN/LAN consultant. > All it would take is one silly user running Lindows to bring an > organization of 1000 to its knees. What a fetid pile of dingo's kidneys, [name snipped]. Stop talking rubbish. If you think you're not talking rubbish, then _try_ to be specific, and stop doing the verbal equivalent of waving your arms madly. For God's sake, man, _think_. First of all, processes don't fscking run themselves. Even if some bonehead user chooses to run some Linux distribution as root all the time, e.g., some _old_ (not current) release of LindowsOS that defaults to autologin in that state, that doesn't magically execute anything, let alone "bring an organization of 1000" to its knees. In point of fact, if some crappy Linux MUA were so unbelievably broken as to autoexecute a received binary attachment, then it wouldn't freakin' well _need_ root authority in order to attack the internal company network, now, would it? Thus, whether it's an obsolete version of LindowsOS, Slackware, Gentoo, or MyFavoriteToyLinux is utterly irrelevant to your example, isn't it? > So your essay doesn't leave me any more heartened that Linux is > fundamentally a platform that's safe from viruses. Ask me if I care. (Actually, don't.) And I DID NOT SAY that it's "safe from viruses". For the love of God, try fscking well READING WHAT I WROTE, next time. OK, that was Round One. Please, no Round Two, because this has been pretty nearly a complete waste of my time and yours. -- Cheers, First they came for the verbs, and I said nothing, for Rick Moen verbing weirds language. Then, they arrival for the nouns rick@linuxmafia.com and I speech nothing, for I no verbs. - Peter Ellis ----- End forwarded message ----- From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Jun 29 21:58:49 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19Wqkb-00006U-00 for ; Sun, 29 Jun 2003 21:58:49 -0700 Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 21:58:49 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20030630045849.GA381@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Subject: [conspire] (forw) Re: linux & viruses X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 04:58:50 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 11685 Lines: 269 In a markedly better mood! ----- Forwarded message from Rick Moen ----- Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 21:55:18 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: [same guy] Subject: Re: linux & viruses Quoting [name snipped]: > Seriously, though, if you say something meaningful, people will react > to it. Honestly, I appreciate it. If I've merely given people pause to think, them not only done so but (as you have) have taken significant time to send feedback, that is flattering and gratifying. I'm less exhausted (and much less grouchy) than I was during the many long hours when I wrote my earlier mail to you. Apologies for having been intemperate. What I've considered doing is putting a section at the bottom of my "rants" page for links to any _dissenting_ essays people want to post to their own Web pages. > If you are writing without intent to persuade and without desire for > response, then for what purpose do you write? By asking this question, you're obliging me to repeat myself, since I've already explained the matter with what I thought was crystal clarity. Moreover, the sentence at the very top of the page hints strongly at it: Economy of expression is a good thing. So, rather than have to repeat myself continually, I'm posting my top rants here, for ready reference. In any event, I will explain for the second time: Occasionally, I will get really tired of going over some topic ad nauseum on mailing lists or newsgroups, e.g. djbware licensing. Sometimes but not always, it will be a topic considered noxious on such fora, either because it's just too frequent with too low a S/N ratio (e.g, "What's the best Linux distribution?") or because it tends to cause flamewars (e.g., Reply-To munging). In some cases, there is a non-controversial but long and complex or tedious answer (e.g., "What options are available for non-destructive repartitioning?"). In any event, it will be a subject I want to "do" one more time as exhaustively as I can manage, and store my answer for ready reference if/when it comes up again. In such cases, I write a draft answer, stating my perspective and trying to cover all relevant angles likely to come up. My aim is to leave interested readers understanding my viewpoint clearly. Then, I try to rewrite it repeatedly, to refine and strengthen it, and eliminate ambiguities, until it's good enough that I think it's my final word. Why? 1. To avoid getting sucked into a now-wearisome topic yet again. 2. To revive the art of expository writing, which in the USA has been tainted by advertising: The reader has been conditioned to expect coaxing, flattery, persuasion. By habit, he sets his mind to resist being "sold" someone else's viewpoint. (After all, why would the other person be spending time if not to sell a product, a religion, a political party, a philosophy?) I therefore consider it refreshing to post writing that tries to cover a viewpoint comprehensively but with a strong flavour of take it or leave it. If that's so uncommon in people's lives that it throws them off-balance, then good. It's about time, frankly. > You surely undermine your intentions to make opinionated people "go > away" by posting your opinions. I don't want them to go away. I just am tired of being subjected to certain topics. Haven't you ever gotten sick of a subject, but considered it sufficiently interesting to cover it one more time, to attempt to "do" it definitively so you can refer people to that in the future? If not, well, now you've met someone who does. > Probably the best way to avoid communications from opinionated > people.... I can't help noticing that you've changed the subject. (I nowhere indicated that I wished to "avoid communications from opinionated people, and that rather lunatic characterisation has nothing to do with my essays.) Furthermore, it's extremely likely you're aware of this -- which leaves me wondering why the frell you tried it. > So I'm baffled that someone who wants to be left in peace... I didn't say I "want to be left in peace". I just don't care to re-argue tiresome topics that I have said my final word about (unless someone actually defies my expectations and tells me something new about them). > ...would post so many strong opinions on his website. See, calling my rants "opinions" comes across as the usual sort of California intellectual laziness. I refer to them as "views": It's not my job to be a frelling encyclopaedia for random Net users, parceling out reality into item A here is a fact, versus item B there that is an opinion. It's the _reader's_ job to decide what he encounters is objective declarations (and of those, which have merit and which do not), and what is debatable (and to what degree). > It just doesn't follow. I'm sorry to hear about your sense of logic, then. ;-> > As to the specific issues of Linux viruses, I'll be brief, since you > (clearly) aren't too thrilled about having an in-depth discussion. I'm sorry, but, unless you have something _new_ to say, I'm not interested. I've just read everything you wrote below the above, and -- except as noted below -- all of it strikes me as either addressed in my essays or rendered irrelevant by points within them. (E.g., lack of contact with the community ignores the point that the community's philosophy gets strongly embedded _in_ the technology through the mutual reinforcement I referred to earlier, e.g., all of the many ways the system makes it non-trivial for novices to shoot themselves in the foot, goads them to applying security fixes semi-automatically, etc.) > You could have a short, sweet executive summary: "If you keep your > system up-to-date, don't use insecure server programs (like sendmail, > bind8, or wu-ftpd), and only log in as root when you need to, your > system is safe.... It's not a security tutorial. It's an essay expressing my view about Linux viruses. Furthermore, I _do_ have an "executive summary" [bleah!]: I have the short answer, long answer format I often favour for long Q & A pieces. > Having it be one huge, slow-loading page neither takes advantages of > hyperlinking above-cited, nor does it respect the vast majority of > Internet users on narrowband links. Just my $0.02. Yes, I know. It _started out_ small. It got huge gradually. I have a plan for how to divide it up and improve access to the contents. I just haven't done it yet. > You keep on mentioning stat(2) where I think you mean to say file(1). It looked to me like file(1) calls stat(2) to retrieve the "magic" data, when I skimmed the former's manpage while composing the mail. But I was really, really tired. > And yes, doing a bytewise inspection of a file is a very safe way to > determine its contents, if not very useful for the majority of folks, who > would have a very hard time telling an MP3 from a JPG. :) So, Don't Do That, Then. You use _software_ to determine file type. > file(1) seems a reasonable compromise, if this is indeed what you > actually meant to say. Basically that _is_ what I said. file(1) or equivalent. > You return again to your philosophy of "people will get burned a few > times and then they'll learn" without recognizing that a hacked system > harms many more people than just the person whose box got hacked. Not relevant to the discussion. To quote http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/#virus2 : It is simply not possible to create and run a piece of software sophisticated enough to prevent a root user from running scripts, system commands, interpreted programs, or any of myriad non-virus executables having destructive potential equal to or greater than that of any virus. Further, such a program would be hostile to the very idea of a root account, which is by design supposed to be able to carry out any possible action on the system. (And, by the way, what's going to protect you from subverted or just dangerously defective virus checkers, themselves wielding root authority? Hmm?) I'm not saying that I either approve or disapprove of people learning from getting burned. I'm merely saying that it happens, and that there are no third alternatives to either learning to do it right or learning from the _results_ of doing it wrong. Clue: That is not an "opinion". That is observed fact. > My point is that naive users will be exposing YOU to increased risk > and threat of damage / harrassment. 1. Don't try to teach your grandmother to suck eggs. http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/essays/attacking-linux.html 2. So what? That has no bearing whatsoever on the merit of my virus essay. > Your point is that people will get burned and will learn how to set up > more secure boxes. Actually, I did not say that. I said: ...sysadmins resistant to learning this message via such avenues inevitably learn it the hard way, by destroying or crippling their systems repeatedly -- until they learn. For all I know, some of these people may require _geologic time_ to learn. I didn't mean to imply that everyone is educable. Honestly, do I _really_ need to state so explicitly? I did _not_ state that slow learners are harmless to the rest of humanity. In your current e-mail, you appear to be assuming I did. Honestly, do my essays need to disclaim what I'm _not_ saying, in addition to clarifying what I _am_ saying? > The point is generally that a single user, either acting maliciously or > via accidentally executing an insecure program, even as a user other than > root, could bring down most organizations. You asserted that LindowsOS makes this possible (under the mistaken impression that LindowsOS inevitably does everything with root authority). It does not. A user doesn't need LindowsOS to bring down a typical organisation's computing infrastructure. He doesn't need root authority. He doesn't need Linux or other Unixes, actually. (Probably, he strictly speaking wouldn't really need a computer.) So, you would seem to have no point here relevant to my virus essays. > (Incidentally, you claim me to be new to the scene, but I've been using > Linux since 1994.) I did not say new to Linux. Quoting: What, do you _actually_ think nobody's been thinking about this, and freakin' well thinking it over in great detail for decades, [name snipped]? Because we have, and it merely seems like you're new to the party and are presuming to raise alarms over _elementary_ aspects of matters we've been working hard on nailing down tight when you were not paying attention. I meant it _seems_ like you're new to serious contemplation of prophylatic *ix security issues. (This would not state as a claim of fact that you _are_ new to that topic, merely that you come across that way.) > Fuck you, Rick. Well, OK. I'm sorry I was a grouch. > I guess you treat everyone who disagrees with you like that. Not at all. But after I go to extreme care to use all my powers of expression to be extremely clear on a topic, and then see someone misread what I wrote as carelessly as you did -- and then presume to offhandedly lecture me as if *I* were not bothering to think carefully is pretty galling. And, for God's sake, man: The page is called "Rick's Rants", and there's a Dennis Miller quotation at the top! Would you grab Miller by the lapel on the sidewalk and tell _him_ that you disagreed with his latest rant, as if this ought to be of keen interest to him? Oh well. -- Cheers, find / -user your -name base -print | xargs chown us:us Rick Moen rick@linuxmafia.com ----- End forwarded message ----- From star@starshine.org Mon Jun 30 14:11:28 2003 Received: from gemini.starshine.org ([216.240.40.169]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19X5vs-0001Ij-00; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 14:11:28 -0700 Received: by gemini.starshine.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1CE4814120; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 14:10:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 14:10:35 -0700 To: Rick Moen Subject: Re: [conspire] (forw) Re: linux & viruses Message-ID: <20030630211035.GC2550@starshine.org> References: <20030630045849.GA381@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030630045849.GA381@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: star@starshine.org (Heather Stern) cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 21:11:29 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2779 Lines: 54 > > You return again to your philosophy of "people will get burned a few > > times and then they'll learn" without recognizing that a hacked system > > harms many more people than just the person whose box got hacked. [That's "cracked" as in broken into, not "hacked" as in left some amusing proof of programming prowess and logician's torture.] Slippery slope, coming up. Computer viruses don't care who you are, and are almost never about a person or group securing personal control of your system. I struggle for an analogy that works here. Viruses spread without conscience, and mostly without enough programming clue to know when to stop. They are weeds taking over your garden, not brats breaking into your house. As such, there are well known gardener's tricks for dealing with weeds, and anyone who allows computer viruses to run rampant (in other words, automatically for any reason) is assumed not to know any better. In the MSwin platform there are a pile of companies trying to sell you defenses; you'd really have to be living under a rock for a few years to not have heard of at least one of them. In the world of Linux, you've got to deliberately lower your original defenses to get even a noticeable, much less a major weed infestation - and you're in more danger of cutting your hand on your own gardening tools than of finding that the backyard flowers are overgrowing your good spot on the couch, beating all your Nintendo scores, and ordering triple anchovy pizza on the interest using your credit card :) If you've been deliberately targetted by someone that's another matter entirely, but then it's not about viruses anymore. > Not relevant to the discussion. To quote > http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/#virus2 : > > It is simply not possible to create and run a piece of software > sophisticated enough to prevent a root user from running scripts, system > commands, interpreted programs, or any of myriad non-virus executables > having destructive potential equal to or greater than that of any virus. The relevant quote to this is a reminder of philosophy: UNIX was not designed to stop you from doing stupid things, because that would also stop you from doing clever things. -- Doug Gwyn And that's quite enough about viruses versus clumsy root users, being too clever by far to indulge in the finer points of logic. Ob strunk: I reserve "virii" for biological agents. Ob authoritative basis: my first professional use of Linux was training fellow antivirus support techs about PC Unix variants. . | . Heather Stern | star@starshine.org --->*<--- Starshine Technical Services - * - consulting@starshine.org ' | ` Sysadmin Support and Training | (800) 938-4078 From rick@linuxmafia.com Mon Jun 30 15:34:52 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19X7Ea-0007SS-00 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 15:34:52 -0700 Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 15:34:52 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] (forw) Re: linux & viruses Message-ID: <20030630223452.GF11062@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030630045849.GA381@linuxmafia.com> <20030630211035.GC2550@starshine.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030630211035.GC2550@starshine.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 22:34:53 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2337 Lines: 48 Quoting Heather Stern (star@starshine.org): > I struggle for an analogy that works here. Viruses spread without > conscience, and mostly without enough programming clue to know when to > stop. They are weeds taking over your garden, not brats breaking into > your house. As such, there are well known gardener's tricks for dealing > with weeds, and anyone who allows computer viruses to run rampant (in > other words, automatically for any reason) is assumed not to know any > better. I like this analogy. > In the world of Linux, you've got to deliberately lower your original > defenses to get even a noticeable, much less a major weed infestation > - and you're in more danger of cutting your hand on your own gardening > tools than of finding that the backyard flowers are overgrowing your > good spot on the couch, beating all your Nintendo scores, and ordering > triple anchovy pizza on the interest using your credit card :) Quite so. Those of us who've been in Unix for a decade or so sometimes have to stop and think hard about how the world looks from, say, a Win98 user's perspective. My mother is one such, so, when I was trying to explain to Unix's issues of proper root-account handling, I had to stop and put the subject in perspective: With Win98, she is _always_ the root user, so very little stands in the way of her actions, a buggy piece of code, a misbehaving application, _or_ a piece of malware from destroying any part of her system, once activated. And then I point out that only bad system defaults (e.g., concealing filename extensions) and bad application design (Outlook / OE autoexecuting attachments in three-pane view, Word/Excel implementing the AutoOpen macro) stand in the way of her completely avoiding virus problems through the simple expedient of not running them -- despite Win98's lack of protection via ownership/permission functions. > If you've been deliberately targetted by someone that's another matter > entirely, but then it's not about viruses anymore. Of course, the topics overlap, because a lot of the same considerations apply: You decide what resources you regard as important to protect, decide what threat modes are worth attempting to block, etc. -- Cheers, Emacs is a good operating system, but I prefer Linux. Rick Moen rick@linuxmafia.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Sat Jul 05 00:22:32 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19YhNQ-0002u2-00 for ; Sat, 05 Jul 2003 00:22:32 -0700 Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 00:22:31 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20030705072231.GI11062@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Subject: [conspire] (forw) SVBUG to meet at CABAL next Saturday X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2003 07:22:33 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1533 Lines: 48 "SVBUG" is the Silicon Valley BSD User Group, and of course I've told Jesse & co. that they're welcome to join us. ----- Forwarded message from Jesse Monroy ----- X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 10:09:21 -0700 To: Rick Moen , Elliott Chuang From: Jesse Monroy Subject: SVBUG to meet at CABAL next Saturday Cc: sokol@dnull.com, James Sparenberg X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.7 required=5.0 tests=MSG_ID_ADDED_BY_MTA_3 version=2.55 Rick, >From the last message sent to SVBUG members there is change in the wind. This note informs you that SVBUG plans to take a proactive position with regards to Linux. Both communities can benefit from cooperation and discussion. Your house is a neutral ground and with your consent it will be our launch pad. In the past you have stated that your domain is open and available to any all such activities. We know that this request does not fall on deaf ears, but a willing host. So, for the benefit of those not at Thursdays meeting, here are the results. We plan to meet with the Cabal first. Further, since we know that you (Rick Moen) can "neither confirm nor deny the existence of the Cabal", here is the information others may need to find this meeting on July 12, 2003: http://www.linuxmafia.com/cabal/ best regards Jessem. Elliot, please forward this message to SVBUG mailing list. Thank you Jessem. ----- End forwarded message ----- From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Jul 06 01:49:32 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19Z5D4-0002ZB-00; Sun, 06 Jul 2003 01:49:26 -0700 Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 01:49:26 -0700 To: daves_mail@getdave.com Message-ID: <20030706084926.GP11062@linuxmafia.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Rick Moen cc: installers@linuxmafia.com cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: [conspire] Re: Installfest X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 08:49:35 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1321 Lines: 38 [CC'ing my reply to CABAL's low-traffic "conspire" mailing list, and setting Reply-To accordingly. You might want to subscribe.] Quoting David Ljung Madison (daves_exim@getdave.com): > Any idea when the next SF installfest will be? We're kinda screwed for July, unless someone can line up a good substitute venue for Saturday, July 26, because of Robert Austin Company's schedule: http://www.robertaustin.com/showdates.htm Mike Higashi and I noticed this when we went over that schedule during the most recent installfest, which you may have noticed was at the Oakland Convention Center, a week ago. It's generally reasonable to have installfests only on regular CABAL days (2nd and 4th Saturdays). The next few CABAL dates are: Sa Jul. 12 Sa Jul. 26 Sa Aug. 9 Sa Aug. 23 Sa Sep. 13 Sa Sep. 27 RobAusCo listed events on those dates are as follows, _only_: Saturday Jul 12 The Cow Palace Saturday Aug 09 Oakland Convention Center Saturday Sep 27 The Cow Palace We can and probably will have installfest on the August and September dates. But the July one is way too soon, so barring a good venue suggestion for July 26, it'll be the other two, only. -- Cheers, Remember: The day after tomorrow is the third day Rick Moen of the rest of your life. rick@linuxmafia.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Mon Jul 07 14:19:38 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19ZdOG-0001kV-00; Mon, 07 Jul 2003 14:19:16 -0700 Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 14:19:16 -0700 To: Greg Dougherty Message-ID: <20030707211916.GE7619@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030707135537-r01010800-1bfb506c-0910-0108@192.168.1.40> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030707135537-r01010800-1bfb506c-0910-0108@192.168.1.40> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Rick Moen cc: installers@linuxmafia.com cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: [conspire] Re: RHL 9 Install problems X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 21:19:38 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 3843 Lines: 88 I'm Cc'ing the CABAL mailing list, "conspire". You might consider joining, in case further comments follow, there. http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire Quoting Greg Dougherty (gregd@molecularsoftware.com): > I found you guys through the Bay Area Linux Users Group. I'm trying to install > Linux on my computer, and having no luck at all. If I brought my computer and > monitor to the Saturday 7/12 meeting, would I be able to get help? (And, how > late do the meetings run? I have a class in Palo Alto until 5:30.) Sure, that would work. We start 4 PM, and run to about midnight. Plenty of time. (This meeting will also feature the Silicon Valley BSD User Group dropping in on us, so there will be something of a party going on in the backyard and back porch, I think.) > My computer: > > Chieftec Dragon case (ATX tower with USB and FireWire on the front) > ASUS A7N8X Deluxe Motherboard > 1 Gig (2 x 512 MB) Kingston Hyper X RAM > 1.83 GHz AMD Althlon XP "Barton" CPU > Western Digital 40 GB Cavalier HD > Artec 16x DVD-ROM (Supposedly Linux compatible) > Floppy Drive, PS/2 Keyboard and mouse Nothing stands out as problematic. > I've had nothing but problems with RHL 9. Large instalations fail to > install. Odd. We can try my RH 9 CDs, and we can also try any of the many other distributions I keep around. If you have time, try a new install and ensure that you check the checkbox to "Check for surface defects" (or words to that effect) during the mkfs = filesystem-creation step. Unfortunately, that step (_with_ surface checking) can take quite a few hours with a very large filesystem, which is why people often omit it -- with obvious disadvantages if your hard drive hardware has a defective stretch of sectors. You could alternatively download an LNX-BBC ISO or a Tom's Root-Boot floppy image, to boot those media as maintenance Linux systems and run fsck with the "-c" = check for bad blocks option: # fsck.ext2 -c /dev/hda1 Download sources: http://www.toms.net/rb/ http://www.lnx-bbc.org/ Although I keep media for those and other things on hand, you may want to create and use them yourself, in advance of Saturday, because surface-checking a large filesystem takes such a long time. > I finally tried installing with the 5 GB partition formatted to ext2. > This let me do the ftp, but when I tried to install from HD, I get a > "cpio magic" error and the install exits. Pondering what that error could mean is what made me think it _might_ be a hard-drive defect: The reference to cpio is because RPMs are stored in compressed cpio archive format (with an RPM-specific header). "magic" is Unix jargon for the file-type bit fingerprint in the first few dozen bytes of any file, whereby Unix decides what type of file it is. (The "file" utility does this, for example.) So, when you tried to make the RH installer unpack an RPM, and it choked complaining about a "cpio magic" error, that means it thinks the RPM file is corrupt and invalid. The big question is why. It could be that you have a defective CD. It could be that you have a marginal CD-reader drive. It could be that you have some bad blocks on your hard drive. Or, it could be that you have some other hardware problem. If it's bad media, we can tell by using mine. If it's a marginal CD reader, we can tell by swapping in one of mine. If it's defective hard disk blocks, your running "fsck.ext2 -c" in advance should catch and fix that. If it's a different sort of hardware problem, we might have an interesting time diagnosing it, but at least we can narrow it down. -- Cheers, First they came for the verbs, and I said nothing, for Rick Moen verbing weirds language. Then, they arrival for the nouns rick@linuxmafia.com and I speech nothing, for I no verbs. - Peter Ellis From rick@linuxmafia.com Mon Jul 07 15:16:23 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19ZeHX-0003hj-00 for ; Mon, 07 Jul 2003 15:16:23 -0700 Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 15:16:23 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20030707221623.GI7619@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Subject: [conspire] (forw) Free Sun Sparc... X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 22:16:24 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 623 Lines: 21 He's not on this mailing list, so you'll want to contact him directly. ----- Forwarded message from Peter Knaggs ----- Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 14:28:29 -0700 From: Peter Knaggs To: Rick@linuxmafia.com Subject: Free Sun Sparc... Hi Rick, Do you know anyone who would like a free SparcStation 20 (with monitor)? I put it together from all the spare parts left over, over the years. Just don't have room for it any more. It runs fine, picture attached. It's only a single 50MHz processor and 32MB memory. Cheers, Peter. ----- End forwarded message ----- From rick@linuxmafia.com Mon Jul 07 16:21:16 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19ZfIK-0005hu-00; Mon, 07 Jul 2003 16:21:16 -0700 Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 16:21:15 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: Greg Dougherty Message-ID: <20030707232115.GK7619@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030707211916.GE7619@linuxmafia.com> <20030707153802-r01010800-1bc09860-0910-0108@192.168.1.40> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030707153802-r01010800-1bc09860-0910-0108@192.168.1.40> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: [conspire] Re: RHL 9 Install problems X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 23:21:19 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1916 Lines: 41 I hope you won't mind my cc'ing "conspire", again. Except where there's a need for privacy, I'd prefer that these discussions benefit the community, if possible. (If you had a specific reason to remain in private mail, then my apologies.) Quoting Greg Dougherty (gregd@molecularsoftware.com): > I tried telling it to check for Bad Blocks. It claimed to find them, and > refused to install (I though formatters were supposed to mark off bad blocks, > not fail). Yes, that's what should have happened. But please note that Linux installers invariably default to no bad-block checking, because of the amount of time it takes. If you're in doubt about the condition of a hard drive, using the manufacturer's pseudo-low-level formatting utility for that model will sometimes make it behave properly, by re-establishing the timing tracks -- and the same utilities will often also do hardware diagnostics. Please see my list of links: http://linuxmafia.com/pub/hardware/hdutils > I downloaded the iso's from a red hat mirror, so they should be good. Just in case you might not have noticed, the RH installer offers, on its first screen, a "media check" (or words to that effect). It's a good idea, and constitutes an integrity check of the CD-ROM media's contents, recalculating the ISO's md5sum value and confirming it against the stored value. Worthwhile. > I'll try downloading the LNX-BBC iso, and see what I can do with that. It's handy to have, anyway -- and I like having it (as well) because (to me) it's a known quantity: Whenever there's funny stuff going on and I want reliable diagnostic tools to reduce the number of diagnostic variables, its contents are useful for doing so. -- Cheers, "Send a policeman, and have it arrested." Rick Moen -- Otto von Bismarck, when asked what he rick@linuxmafia.com would do if the British Army landed. From mhigashi@myrddin.imat.com Mon Jul 07 20:50:14 2003 Received: from adsl-207-214-84-142.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net ([207.214.84.142] helo=myrddin.imat.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19ZjUc-000142-00 for ; Mon, 07 Jul 2003 20:50:14 -0700 Received: (from mhigashi@localhost) by myrddin.imat.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h683laD26800 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Mon, 7 Jul 2003 20:47:36 -0700 Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 20:47:36 -0700 From: Mike Higashi To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: Installfest Message-ID: <20030708034736.GA26714@myrddin.imat.com> References: <20030706084926.GP11062@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030706084926.GP11062@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 03:50:15 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 571 Lines: 16 On Sun, Jul 06, 2003 at 01:49:26AM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: > > RobAusCo listed events on those dates are as follows, _only_: > > Saturday Jul 12 The Cow Palace > Saturday Aug 09 Oakland Convention Center > Saturday Sep 27 The Cow Palace > > We can and probably will have installfest on the August and September > dates. But the July one is way too soon, so barring a good venue > suggestion for July 26, it'll be the other two, only. I won't be able to make an August 9th date, I'm committed to going to the kickoff party for BayCon 2004 on that day. Mike Higashi From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Jul 08 00:55:11 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19ZnJf-0002q6-00 for ; Tue, 08 Jul 2003 00:55:11 -0700 Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 00:55:11 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: Installfest Message-ID: <20030708075511.GQ7619@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030706084926.GP11062@linuxmafia.com> <20030708034736.GA26714@myrddin.imat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030708034736.GA26714@myrddin.imat.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Rick Moen X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 07:55:11 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 858 Lines: 24 Quoting Mike Higashi (mhigashi@imat.com): > I won't be able to make an August 9th date, I'm committed to going to > the kickoff party for BayCon 2004 on that day. Damn. I really ought to be there, too. Well, I'd be glad to have an all-day CABAL instalfest event at my house on one of the _other_ CABAL days in July and/or August: Saturday, July 26 Saturday, August 23 The alternative would be to hold a RobAusCo event on a day that's not normally a CABAL day at all -- and hold a CABAL meeting that same day, and cancel it from occurring on the regular day. We've done that some times in the past when RobAusCo's show schedule has been particularly bad, but it's not a great idea to not have the regular meetings be regular and predictable. -- Cheers, Live Faust, die Jung. Rick Moen rick@linuxmafia.com From rhl@molecularsoftware.com Tue Jul 08 16:46:26 2003 Received: from pimout1-ext.prodigy.net ([207.115.63.77]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19a2AD-0006wU-00 for ; Tue, 08 Jul 2003 16:46:26 -0700 Received: from 192.168.1.40 (adsl-66-124-255-0.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [66.124.255.0])h68Nj1UO202636 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2003 19:45:02 -0400 Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 16:44:48 -0700 From: Greg Dougherty To: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: <20030707232115.GK7619@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <20030708164457-r01010800-9acb0eaa-0910-0108@192.168.1.40> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mailsmith 1.1.8 (Bluto) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 17:31:51 -0700 Subject: [conspire] Re: RHL 9 Install problems X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 23:46:28 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2205 Lines: 57 On 7/7/03, Rick Moen writes: > Quoting Greg Dougherty (rhl@molecularsoftware.com): > >> I tried telling it to check for Bad Blocks. It claimed to find >> them, and refused to install (I though formatters were supposed to >> mark off bad blocks, not fail). > > Yes, that's what should have happened. Should mark them off? Or should just fail? > But please note that Linux installers invariably default to no > bad-block checking, because of the amount of time it takes. That's fine, that's why I set it to check bad blocks in Disk Druid. > If you're in doubt about the condition of a hard drive, using the > manufacturer's pseudo-low-level formatting utility for that model will > sometimes make it behave properly, by re-establishing the timing tracks > -- and the same utilities will often also do hardware diagnostics. That would require me to HAVE said utility. It certainly didn't come with my drive. :-) > Please see my list of links: > http://linuxmafia.com/pub/hardware/hdutils I've downloaded them. We'll see what I can accomplish with them. > > I downloaded the iso's from a red hat mirror, so they should be good. > > Just in case you might not have noticed, the RH installer offers, on its > first screen, a "media check" (or words to that effect). Hard not to notice, it's kind of pushy about it. :-) One of the CD-ROM drives I tried didn't like my disks, the other did. That's why I tried using the RHL isos. > > I'll try downloading the LNX-BBC iso, and see what I can do with that. > > It's handy to have, anyway -- and I like having it (as well) because > (to me) it's a known quantity: Whenever there's funny stuff going on > and I want reliable diagnostic tools to reduce the number of diagnostic > variables, its contents are useful for doing so. I downloaded and burned it. when I try to run fsck, it complains that the partition is mounted. I tried using umount (both "umount /dev/hda2" and "umount /root", for example), and it insisted that the thing was NOT mounted. Bad blocks read only claimed not to find anything, and it refused to run Bad blocks read-write, because the partition was mounted! :-( Any suggestions? TIA, Greg From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Jul 08 18:19:54 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19a3cf-0004oL-00 for ; Tue, 08 Jul 2003 18:19:53 -0700 Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 18:19:53 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: RHL 9 Install problems Message-ID: <20030709011953.GE7619@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030707232115.GK7619@linuxmafia.com> <20030708164457-r01010800-9acb0eaa-0910-0108@192.168.1.40> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030708164457-r01010800-9acb0eaa-0910-0108@192.168.1.40> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Rick Moen X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 01:19:56 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1675 Lines: 46 Quoting Greg Dougherty (rhl@molecularsoftware.com): > > [formatters are supposed to mark off bad blocks, not fail] > > Yes, that's what should have happened. > > Should mark them off? Or should just fail? Should mark them off -- if you use the check-bad-blocks option. > That's fine, that's why I set it to check bad blocks in Disk Druid. Aha. > One of the CD-ROM drives I tried didn't like my disks, the other did. That's > why I tried using the RHL isos. Well, this certainly leaves open the possibility that your CD drive is having a problem reading the disks (even if the disks themselves are fine). [LNX-BBC:] > I downloaded and burned it. when I try to run fsck, it complains that > the partition is mounted. I tried using umount (both "umount > /dev/hda2" and "umount /root", for example), and it insisted that the > thing was NOT mounted. Bad blocks read only claimed not to find > anything, and it refused to run Bad blocks read-write, because the > partition was mounted! :-( First of all, I hope/assume you actually _booted_ the LNX-BBC. I can't imagine your not doing so, but wanted to check, just in case. Second, you should type the command "mount" with no options or parameters, to double-check what is mounted, and mounted where. Then, if any part of the hard drive is reported as mounted, umount exactly that. The "umount /root" is definitely not appropriate, since (during your use of the LNX-BBC) that will be either part of the mounted CD drive or a RAMdisk (can't remember which). -- Cheers, You can't lick the system -- but you can certainly Rick Moen give it a damned good fondling.... rick@linuxmafia.com From bill@wards.dyndns.org Tue Jul 08 21:54:40 2003 Received: from smtp2.sasquatch.com ([216.218.236.166]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19a6yW-0008OX-00 for ; Tue, 08 Jul 2003 21:54:40 -0700 Received: (qmail 8277 invoked by uid 7794); 9 Jul 2003 04:53:12 -0000 Received: from bill@wards.dyndns.org by smtp2.sasquatch.com by uid 7791 with qmail-scanner-1.16 (sophie: 2.14/3.02 Clear:. Processed in 0.041973 secs); 09 Jul 2003 04:53:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO komodo.home.wards.net) (12.234.96.211) by smtp2.sasquatch.com with SMTP; 9 Jul 2003 04:53:12 -0000 Received: from bill by komodo.home.wards.net with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19a6x5-0001RM-00; Tue, 08 Jul 2003 21:53:11 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <16139.40887.403923.368680@komodo.home.wards.net> Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 21:53:11 -0700 From: bill@wards.net (William R Ward) To: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailer: VM 7.03 under Emacs 21.2.1 Sender: Bill Ward Subject: [conspire] Peninsula LUG (penLUG) meeting July 10 7pm, Oracle 1op104 X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: rsvp@penlug.org List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 04:54:41 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 3212 Lines: 67 I have just received the final confirmation of our room reservation for our first ever Peninsula LUG meeting. We will be meeting July 10 (in 2 days) from 7pm-9pm at 100 Oracle Parkway, room 104 ("1op104" in Oracle jargon). ** Agenda ** Unfortuntaley I have not yet lined up a keynote speaker for this meeting. If I am able to secure a speaker, I will make a followup announcement about it. Otherwise, we will have an "open mike" night - if you have a favorite Linux application or an interesting project, you can speak for 5-10 minutes or so about it. Please email me if you are interested in doing this. There will also be an opportunity for people to discuss what form the group should take; when meetings should be held; ideas for meeting format; what kinds of activities we might do; etc. Also, there will be a call for volunteers to help organize the group, build/maintain the website, coordinate speakers, etc. Bring your ideas and enthusiasm and let's get something great started! RSVP: not required, but it would be nice so I can have an idea of how cmany people to expect. Email rsvp@penlug.org ** Directions ** From US-101 (either direction): - Take the Marine World Parkway / Ralston Ave / Belmont exit, and head east (Marine World Parkway). - Get into the left turn lane immediately and turn left on Oracle Parkway. (If you miss the turn, the next left is also Oracle Parkway; the other end of the loop.) - The building nearest to the freeway on Oracle Parkway is building 100. Park in the lot outside or in the adjacent garage. - Walk in the main lobby and turn left. The room opens directly off the lobby. You don't need to go past security, but the lobby doors will be locked after 6pm, so someone will have to let you in. We will arrange for someone to be on hand to do this. From I-280 (either direction): - Take highway 92 eastbound. From here you have a choice, depending on how bad traffic is: - Continue on highway 92 to US-101, then turn south on 101 and proceed as described above. - OR, take the Ralston Ave / Belmont exit off 92, drive through Belmont on Ralston, and then the road turns into Marine World Parkway as you cross 101. Continue as described above. On public transit: - Take Caltrain to either the Belmont or San Carlos stations. - Take SamTrans line 260 from either station to the Redwood Shores area. NOTE: the last buses depart Belmont at 6:18pm and San Carlos at 6:04pm. So be early! - You might consider walking from Belmont Caltrain to Oracle; it's 0.85 miles according to MapQuest. Or bring a bicycle. - You may also be able to hop on the Oracle Caltrain shuttles at either station, but these are intended for people leaving Oracle, not arriving. This option is not recommended. - Someone can drive you back to the train station after the meeting. -- William R Ward bill@wards.net http://www.wards.net/~bill/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines." - Emerson From rhl@molecularsoftware.com Thu Jul 10 12:22:29 2003 Received: from pimout1-ext.prodigy.net ([207.115.63.77]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19agzt-0006Ts-00 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 12:22:29 -0700 Received: from 192.168.1.40 (adsl-66-124-255-0.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [66.124.255.0])h6AJKZUQ069840 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 15:20:38 -0400 Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 10:57:24 -0700 From: Greg Dougherty Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: RHL 9 Install problems To: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: <20030709011953.GE7619@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <20030710122031-r01010800-86afd184-0910-0108@192.168.1.40> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mailsmith 1.1.8 (Bluto) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 12:36:48 -0700 X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 19:22:32 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1623 Lines: 42 On 7/8/03, Rick Moen writes: > Quoting Greg Dougherty (rhl@molecularsoftware.com): > > > Should mark them off -- if you use the check-bad-blocks option. Ok, so I was probably running into the bug that someone on linux.redhat.install mentioned, where Disk Druid sometimes reads past the end of the area it's supposed to be formatting, and reports spurious bad blocks. >> One of the CD-ROM drives I tried didn't like my disks, the other >> did. That's why I tried using the RHL isos. > > Well, this certainly leaves open the possibility that your CD drive > is having a problem reading the disks (even if the disks themselves > are fine). Yep. :-( Is there anything I can do about it if it is? > [LNX-BBC:] > > > I downloaded and burned it. when I try to run fsck, it complains that > > the partition is mounted. I tried using umount (both "umount > > /dev/hda2" and "umount /root", for example), and it insisted that the > > thing was NOT mounted. Bad blocks read only claimed not to find > > anything, and it refused to run Bad blocks read-write, because the > > partition was mounted! :-( > > First of all, I hope/assume you actually _booted_ the LNX-BBC. I can't > imagine your not doing so, but wanted to check, just in case. :-) Yes. > Second, you should type the command "mount" with no options or > parameters, to double-check what is mounted, and mounted where. > Then, if any part of the hard drive is reported as mounted, umount > exactly that. Cool. Did that, have the test running. It's running on ~28 gig of disk, so it will be a while before the results come in. :-) From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Jul 10 12:39:13 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19ahG5-0002pc-00 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 12:39:13 -0700 Resent-From: rick@linuxmafia.com Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 12:39:13 -0700 Resent-Message-ID: <20030710193913.GM26899@linuxmafia.com> Resent-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Received: from pimout1-ext.prodigy.net ([207.115.63.77]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19agzs-0006Tr-00 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 12:22:28 -0700 Received: from 192.168.1.40 (adsl-66-124-255-0.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [66.124.255.0])h6AJKZUO069840 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 15:20:37 -0400 Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 12:20:21 -0700 From: Greg Dougherty Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: RHL 9 Install problems To: Rick Moen X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: <20030709011953.GE7619@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <20030710122029-r01010800-f891f6dc-0910-0108@192.168.1.40> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mailsmith 1.1.8 (Bluto) X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.0 required=5.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 12:40:31 -0700 X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 19:39:14 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1242 Lines: 31 On 7/8/03, Rick Moen writes: > Quoting Greg Dougherty (rhl@molecularsoftware.com): > > [LNX-BBC:] > > > I downloaded and burned it. when I try to run fsck, it complains that > > the partition is mounted. I tried using umount (both "umount > > /dev/hda2" and "umount /root", for example), and it insisted that the > > thing was NOT mounted. Bad blocks read only claimed not to find > > anything, and it refused to run Bad blocks read-write, because the > > partition was mounted! :-( > > First of all, I hope/assume you actually _booted_ the LNX-BBC. I can't > imagine your not doing so, but wanted to check, just in case. > > Second, you should type the command "mount" with no options or > parameters, to double-check what is mounted, and mounted where. > Then, if any part of the hard drive is reported as mounted, umount > exactly that. > > The "umount /root" is definitely not appropriate, since (during your use > of the LNX-BBC) that will be either part of the mounted CD drive or a > RAMdisk (can't remember which). Ok, I ran e2fsck on my 26 gig partition. It took about 20 hours. It did the non-destructive read-write test, reported "vdone", and has now appeared to hang. What do I do now? Greg From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Jul 10 13:09:14 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19ahj8-0007hu-00 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:09:14 -0700 Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:09:14 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: RHL 9 Install problems Message-ID: <20030710200914.GN26899@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030709011953.GE7619@linuxmafia.com> <20030710122029-r01010800-f891f6dc-0910-0108@192.168.1.40> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030710122029-r01010800-f891f6dc-0910-0108@192.168.1.40> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 20:09:15 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 3588 Lines: 83 Quoting Greg Dougherty (rhl@molecularsoftware.com): > Ok, I ran e2fsck on my 26 gig partition. It took about 20 hours. It > did the non-destructive read-write test, reported "vdone", and has now > appeared to hang. > > What do I do now? Hmm, definitely not good -- though I have no idea what "vdone" is supposed to mean. It should terminate and take you back to a command prompt, of course. Let's get back to that question in a minute, after I address your slightly earlier post: > Ok, so I was probably running into the bug that someone on > linux.redhat.install mentioned, where Disk Druid sometimes reads past > the end of the area it's supposed to be formatting, and reports > spurious bad blocks. I was never a big fan of Disk Druid, but will just make the general comment that it's comforting to know that you're using a known-good version of a well-tested, basic utility. The e2fsck (fsck.ext2) in LNX-BBC 2.1 is definitely one such. >> Well, this certainly leaves open the possibility that your CD drive >> is having a problem reading the disks (even if the disks themselves >> are fine). > Yep. :-( > Is there anything I can do about it if it is? Well, lots'a people have spare CD-ROM drives sitting around that can be borrowed for the occasion, including me. (Of course, you could do a network install, instead, but borrowing a CD drive is less convoluted -- except on laptop machines.) Anyhow, to recap: You have a whopping big hard drive. RH9 has problems installing onto it. You think it has an ext2 partition on it, but running _even_ the LNX-BBC 2.1's fsck.ext2 on it brings up a bogus (?) complaint of the partition being mounted. Somehow (exactly how is a bit unclear from your posts), you got past that, and ran a 20-hour fsck.ext2 _with_ badblocks check on it (but running the non-destructive mode), again using the utility from the LNX-BBC. But it didn't terminate correctly, but rather put out an incomprehensible notice saying "vdone", and hanged. You also mentioned downloading the pseudo-low-level formatting utility and/or drive-diagnostic utility for your model hard drive, just in case the drive has problems. You didn't clarify whether you ran it. Man, what a mess. I think we can _reasonably_ safely assume that the LNX-BBC disk you used is OK. Therefore, the fsck.ext2 you're using is OK, ditto. (Your CD drive could still have problems, but instances of subtly defective read operations from _two_ CDs would be an awfully big coincidence. It would have been slightly nicer to have not used that CD drive, e.g., by using the Tom's Root-Boot floppy instead, but never mind.) Since you have the LNX-BBC handy, you might want to use _it_ to see if it can make fresh, from-scratch filesystems on your hard drive, blowing away whatever RH9 created there. If that works, and ext2.fsck likes them[1], then you can do a fresh installation of RH9, and be happy. If LNX-BBC's mkfs.ext2 chokes on the drive, then we have to wonder about the drive itself. In the latter case, I'd try the drive utilities you downloaded. If that doesn't make the problem go away, then RMA (return) the drive to the manufacturer under warranty, and get a replacement. (If anyone else on the mailing list thinks I'm talking through my hat, or has other ideas, please do speak up. Thanks.) [1] In your shoes, I'd try it without badblocks checking, I guess: 20 hours _is_ a heck of a long time. -- Cheers, Remember: The day after tomorrow is the third day Rick Moen of the rest of your life. rick@linuxmafia.com From sneakums@zork.net Thu Jul 10 13:31:57 2003 Received: from zork.zork.net ([64.81.246.102] ident=mail) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19ai57-0002Tk-00 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:31:57 -0700 Received: from sneakums by zork.zork.net with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19ai3f-0001dK-00; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:30:27 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: RHL 9 Install problems References: <20030709011953.GE7619@linuxmafia.com> <20030710122029-r01010800-f891f6dc-0910-0108@192.168.1.40> <20030710200914.GN26899@linuxmafia.com> From: Sean Neakums Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:30:27 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20030710200914.GN26899@linuxmafia.com> (Rick Moen's message of "Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:09:14 -0700") Message-ID: <6uy8z6f7ks.fsf@zork.zork.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 20:31:58 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 627 Lines: 13 Rick Moen writes: > Anyhow, to recap: You have a whopping big hard drive. RH9 has problems > installing onto it. You think it has an ext2 partition on it, but > running _even_ the LNX-BBC 2.1's fsck.ext2 on it brings up a bogus (?) > complaint of the partition being mounted. In all likelihood, this is because the LNX-BBC will have mounted all of the filesystems it could find, read-only, under /mnt/ro. umount /dev/hda2 won't work because the BBC uses devfs. Probably the OP followed your advice to check the output of mount and successfully got it umounted before running fsck.ext2, however. From rhl@molecularsoftware.com Thu Jul 10 13:39:10 2003 Received: from pimout1-ext.prodigy.net ([207.115.63.77]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19aiC4-0003As-00 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:39:08 -0700 Received: from 192.168.1.40 (adsl-66-124-255-0.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [66.124.255.0])h6AKbaUO197146 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 16:37:37 -0400 Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:37:10 -0700 From: Greg Dougherty Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: RHL 9 Install problems To: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: <20030710200914.GN26899@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <20030710133730-r01010800-f09a9a39-0910-0108@192.168.1.40> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mailsmith 1.1.8 (Bluto) X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 20:39:10 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 4047 Lines: 94 On 7/10/03, Rick Moen writes: > Quoting Greg Dougherty (rhl@molecularsoftware.com): > > Anyhow, to recap: You have a whopping big hard drive. RH9 has problems > installing onto it. You think it has an ext2 partition on it, but > running _even_ the LNX-BBC 2.1's fsck.ext2 on it brings up a bogus (?) > complaint of the partition being mounted. I HAD an ext2 partition on it. I did another install, however, and this is my current setup: hda 1: ~10 GB, NTFS hda 2: 100 MB, ext3 /boot hda 3: 2000 MB swap hda 5: the rest ext3 / It's a WD 40 "GB" HD, which means it holds ~40 billion bytes of data (NOT 40 GB). I ran fsck -c -c on hda2, no problem. I ran it on hda5, it said "vdone" after spending 20+ hours checking for bad blocks, then hung my machine. Control-c and -D did nothing, neither did anything else, so I shut it down. I have found that I can usually do a Custom Minimal RHL 9 install. I try to do more than that, or try to do anything once I have install, and my computer goes tits up. > Somehow (exactly how is a bit unclear from your posts), you got past > that, and ran a 20-hour fsck.ext2 _with_ badblocks check on it (but > running the non-destructive mode), again using the utility from the > LNX-BBC. But it didn't terminate correctly, but rather put out an > incomprehensible notice saying "vdone", and hanged. > > You also mentioned downloading the pseudo-low-level formatting utility > and/or drive-diagnostic utility for your model hard drive, just in case > the drive has problems. You didn't clarify whether you ran it. I haven't run it. I don't have a bottable floppy at the moment. > Man, what a mess. That was my feeling, about a week ago. :-( > I think we can _reasonably_ safely assume that the LNX-BBC disk you used > is OK. Therefore, the fsck.ext2 you're using is OK, ditto. (Your CD > drive could still have problems, but instances of subtly defective read > operations from _two_ CDs would be an awfully big coincidence. It would > have been slightly nicer to have not used that CD drive, e.g., by using > the Tom's Root-Boot floppy instead, but never mind.) > > Since you have the LNX-BBC handy, you might want to use _it_ to see if > it can make fresh, from-scratch filesystems on your hard drive, blowing > away whatever RH9 created there. If that works, and ext2.fsck likes > them[1], then you can do a fresh installation of RH9, and be happy. > If LNX-BBC's mkfs.ext2 chokes on the drive, then we have to wonder about > the drive itself. How do I do that? What program do I use to make the partitions, and how do I get RHL to install onto the already created partitions? While we're on the subject of partitions, is there anyplace you can point me to that gives a good discussion on reasonable ways to partition a large HD with Linux? IOW, I'm a programmer. I want to download and play with the linux kernal. I want to download, and fix some "bugs" (they piss me off) in Mozilla. I want to download JBuilder and MySQL and do programming with both (including downloading, installing, and playing with the biojava.org code tree). After reading the first chapters of the RedHat Linux 9 Bible, I was thinking about creating the following partitions and mount points: 2 GB /tmp 2 GB /var 8 GB /usr 5 GB /home `8 GB / (i.e. it get's what's left over) Is this reasonable for what I want to do? Is this overly complicated, and I should just make one large partition? TIA, anyone. > In the latter case, I'd try the drive utilities you downloaded. If that > doesn't make the problem go away, then RMA (return) the drive to the > manufacturer under warranty, and get a replacement. > > (If anyone else on the mailing list thinks I'm talking through my hat, > or has other ideas, please do speak up. Thanks.) > > [1] In your shoes, I'd try it without badblocks checking, I guess: 20 > hours _is_ a heck of a long time. I'm not doing anything else with the computer, and I'm happy to leave it running all night long, if it will do me any good. Greg From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Jul 10 14:54:34 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19ajN4-0008Ub-00 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 14:54:34 -0700 Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 14:54:32 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: RHL 9 Install problems Message-ID: <20030710215432.GO26899@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030709011953.GE7619@linuxmafia.com> <20030710122029-r01010800-f891f6dc-0910-0108@192.168.1.40> <20030710200914.GN26899@linuxmafia.com> <6uy8z6f7ks.fsf@zork.zork.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6uy8z6f7ks.fsf@zork.zork.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Rick Moen X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:54:35 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 533 Lines: 14 Quoting Sean Neakums (sneakums@zork.net): > In all likelihood, this is because the LNX-BBC will have mounted all > of the filesystems it could find, read-only, under /mnt/ro. umount > /dev/hda2 won't work because the BBC uses devfs. Probably the OP > followed your advice to check the output of mount and successfully got > it umounted before running fsck.ext2, however. Er, right, thanks! Forgot about the devfs angle. -- Cheers, Rick Moen Age, baro, fac ut gaudeam. rick@linuxmafia.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Jul 10 15:53:54 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19akIT-00087T-00 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 15:53:53 -0700 Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 15:53:53 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: RHL 9 Install problems Message-ID: <20030710225353.GQ26899@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030710200914.GN26899@linuxmafia.com> <20030710133730-r01010800-f09a9a39-0910-0108@192.168.1.40> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030710133730-r01010800-f09a9a39-0910-0108@192.168.1.40> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Rick Moen X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 22:53:54 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 6746 Lines: 145 Quoting Greg Dougherty (rhl@molecularsoftware.com): > I HAD an ext2 partition on it. I did another install, however, and this is my > current setup: > hda 1: ~10 GB, NTFS > hda 2: 100 MB, ext3 /boot > hda 3: 2000 MB swap > hda 5: the rest ext3 / OK. > It's a WD 40 "GB" HD, which means it holds ~40 billion bytes of data (NOT 40 > GB). Yes, I know that scam. Annoying, isn't it? Greg means they define "megabyte" and "gigabyte" as 1000 and 1,000,000, rather than 1024^2 and 1024^3 -- in order to shortchange you on space. Some people such as my friend Karsten Self feel this is both not worth fighting and also technically correct per the metric system's definitions of those scale prefixes, and that the neologisms "MiB" and "GiB" should be used if you insist on multiples of 1024. > I ran fsck -c -c on hda2, no problem. I ran it on hda5, it said > "vdone" after spending 20+ hours checking for bad blocks, then hung my > machine. Control-c and -D did nothing, neither did anything else, so > I shut it down. Ouch. That's a real pain -- especially since it leaves you objectively in doubt as to whether its a logical (formatting) problem or a physical problem on the hard drive. Logical drive problems come in two varieties: There are the ones that go away when you blow away and remake filesystems using standard tools whose integrity you have confidence in, and there are those that don't. As a practical matter, what you do in the latter case is have a whack at the drive using the manufacturer's pseudo-low-level formatting utility[1]. If the problem goes away _then_, it must have been of logical origin. If not, by process of elimination, it's physical and you return the drive under warranty (or hurl it in the compost heap, absent an unexpired warranty). The easy way to blow away a filesystem (partition) using standard high-level tools is using /sbin/fdisk (or cfdisk; your choice). The obvious way to make a new one is mkfs.ext2, mkfs.ext3, etc. Blowing away high-level information (partition definitions) using fdisk/cfdisk has the advantage over low-level reformatting of enabling you to blank out less than the entire drive. Low-level formatters blitz absolutely everything -- which is both advantage and disadvantage at the same time. (That is, there's nothing like the reassurance of knowing that you've redone the layout of a drive only after clobbering every last magnetised bit on it using low-level tools _first_ -- but you'd damned well better have everything backed up. Everything. Because the drive will get completely blanked.) > I have found that I can usually do a Custom Minimal RHL 9 install. I > try to do more than that, or try to do anything once I have install, > and my computer goes tits up. So, the problem is that I don't want to rush to conclusions, and we don't have indicative enough symptoms or error messages to point the finger definitively at high-level formatting (filesystem definition), low-level formatting, a recurring CD-ROM _drive_ glitch, a defect on your CD-ROM _media_ surface, or some other hardware problem. From what we've heard, it could still be any of those, I think. It's certainly looking more like _something_ to do with the hard drive, though, after your attempt to use fsck.ext2 from the LNX-BBC. [making a fresh, from-scratch filesystems on your hard drive] > How do I do that? Boot the LNX-BBC. Type "mount". umount anything concerned with /dev/hda5. Then, type "mkfs.ext3 /dev/hda5". Wait a few minutes; you'll get your prompt back when it's done. Do something similar for anything else you want to make afresh. (You might need to invoke "mke3fs" instead of mkfs.ext3.)` The above will suffice if you wish to just remake partitions that already exist. If you wish to change from ext3 to any other partition type (no reason why you should) or to change the size and quantity of partitions, then you need to _first_ edit the partition table using fdisk or cfdisk, and _then_ use appropriate mkfs.* tools (mkfs.ext3, mkfs.ext2, mkfs.xfs, mkreiserfs...) on the partitions thus defined. > how do I get RHL to install onto the already created partitions? In the installer, right around where you enter Disk Druid, you'll see the list of partitions, including those you've just re-made. In the filesystem options, confirm the filesystem type (ext3), make sure the box to make (format) the partition is _not_ checked, and supply the filesystem's mountpoint (e.g., "/"). I'll address the question about "reasonable ways to partition a large HD with Linux" in a separate message, to be posted after this one. >> [1] In your shoes, I'd try it without badblocks checking, I guess: 20 >> hours _is_ a heck of a long time. > > I'm not doing anything else with the computer, and I'm happy to leave > it running all night long, if it will do me any good. That's a game of likelihood-of-satisfaction percentages that looks reasonable if you think you'll do it once and gain some benefit, but more like a waste of time if you either might have to do it multiple times or gain no benefit from it. Based on your one 20-hour run and the (reasonable) assumption that the LNX-BBC's copy of fsck.ext2 [2] is OK, unfortunately we didn't gain any functionality and didn't learn much. So: What would I do? I'd _not_ play around with rearranging filesystem sizes, for now. (It's bad to needlessly introduce variables into a diagnostic situation.) I'd boot the LNX-BBC, make sure /dev/hda5 isn't mounted (umount it if it is), then do "fsck.ext3 /dev/hda5". If it misbehaved in any way, I'd back up anything I cared about, then blitz the whole damned drive with the low-level formatter, then restart from scratch. If problems persisted, I guess I'd think hard about where a hardware problem might have crept into my system. [1] That's if it's ATA ("IDE"). If it's SCSI, you don't need a manufacturer's app, as you can easily rewrite the drive's low-level information using your SCSI host adapter's firmware utility for that purpose. [2] Honestly, we should have had you run fsck.ext3. To explain, ext3 is just the old ext2 filesystem with a journal file, used to log pending write operations so they can be then written to disk in a single atomic operation (with a number of incidental benefits). So, I _believe_ running fsck.ext2 on an ext3 filesystem is perfectly fine: It should just check the underlying filesystem and just not bother to check the journal. To my knowledge, fsck.ext3 _is_ fsck.ext2 with that one extra check added in. -- May those that love us love us; and those that don't love us, may God turn their hearts; and if he doesn't turn their hearts, may he turn their ankles so we'll know them by their limping. From rhl@molecularsoftware.com Thu Jul 10 17:33:54 2003 Received: from pimout2-ext.prodigy.net ([207.115.63.101]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19alrG-0006w2-00 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 17:33:54 -0700 Received: from 192.168.1.40 (adsl-66-124-255-0.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [66.124.255.0])h6B0WLIr012518 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 20:32:22 -0400 Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 17:32:08 -0700 From: Greg Dougherty Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: RHL 9 Install problems To: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: <20030710225353.GQ26899@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <20030710173215-r01010800-9efc278d-0910-0108@192.168.1.40> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mailsmith 1.1.8 (Bluto) X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 00:33:55 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 3728 Lines: 85 On 7/10/03, Rick Moen writes: > Quoting Greg Dougherty (rhl@molecularsoftware.com): > >> I HAD an ext2 partition on it. I did another install, however, and >> this is my current setup: >> hda 1: ~10 GB, NTFS >> hda 2: 100 MB, ext3 /boot >> hda 3: 2000 MB swap >> hda 5: the rest ext3 / > > OK. > > > I ran fsck -c -c on hda2, no problem. I ran it on hda5, it said > > "vdone" after spending 20+ hours checking for bad blocks, then hung my > > machine. Control-c and -D did nothing, neither did anything else, so > > I shut it down. > > Ouch. That's a real pain -- especially since it leaves you objectively > in doubt as to whether its a logical (formatting) problem or a physical > problem on the hard drive. I've now tried running the WD HD Utilities two different ways, from a Windows ME bootable floppy, and from a "Data Lifeguard Tools" booting floppy. In both cases, attempting to run DLGDIAG.EXE caused my computer to crash (screen goes black. Nothing happens. I wait. I three finger salute). :-( I didn't wait long enough. :-) So, I ran their full test. It claims there are no problems with my drive. The WD low level format utility refuses to run unless I give in a Windows 98 boot disk. SInce I have no desire to put Windows 98 on my system, that would be a bad idea. Yes? Attempting to run DLGUDMA.EXE (from the Data Lifeguard Tools" booting floppy) has worked, so, just for grins, I told it to go down to UDMA 33 (I'll tell it to go faster if I can ever get it to work). > Logical drive problems come in two varieties: There are the ones that > go away when you blow away and remake filesystems using standard tools > whose integrity you have confidence in, and there are those that don't. > As a practical matter, what you do in the latter case is have a whack at > the drive using the manufacturer's pseudo-low-level formatting > utility[1]. If the problem goes away _then_, it must have been of > logical origin. If not, by process of elimination, it's physical and > you return the drive under warranty (or hurl it in the compost heap, > absent an unexpired warranty). So this means that if I continue having difficulty, I call up NewEgg and get an RMA # (The disk is about 3 weeks old)? > The easy way to blow away a filesystem (partition) using standard > high-level tools is using /sbin/fdisk (or cfdisk; your choice). The > obvious way to make a new one is mkfs.ext2, mkfs.ext3, etc. > > Blowing away high-level information (partition definitions) using > fdisk/cfdisk has the advantage over low-level reformatting of enabling > you to blank out less than the entire drive. Low-level formatters blitz > absolutely everything -- which is both advantage and disadvantage at the > same time. Ok, will try. > Boot the LNX-BBC. Type "mount". umount anything concerned with > /dev/hda5. Then, type "mkfs.ext3 /dev/hda5". Wait a few minutes; > you'll get your prompt back when it's done. > > Do something similar for anything else you want to make afresh. (You > might need to invoke "mke3fs" instead of mkfs.ext3.)` What to I use to remake my Swap partition? > The above will suffice if you wish to just remake partitions that > already exist. If you wish to change from ext3 to any other partition > type (no reason why you should) or to change the size and quantity of > partitions, then you need to _first_ edit the partition table using > fdisk or cfdisk, and _then_ use appropriate mkfs.* tools (mkfs.ext3, > mkfs.ext2, mkfs.xfs, mkreiserfs...) on the partitions thus defined. > I'll address the question about "reasonable ways to partition a large HD > with Linux" in a separate message, to be posted after this one. I look forward to it. From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Jul 10 18:00:20 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19amGp-00038e-00 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 18:00:19 -0700 Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 18:00:19 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: RHL 9 Install problems Message-ID: <20030711010019.GU26899@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030710225353.GQ26899@linuxmafia.com> <20030710173215-r01010800-9efc278d-0910-0108@192.168.1.40> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030710173215-r01010800-9efc278d-0910-0108@192.168.1.40> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Rick Moen X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 01:00:20 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 4334 Lines: 85 Quoting Greg Dougherty (rhl@molecularsoftware.com): > So, I ran their full test. It claims there are no problems with my drive. Well, I'm prepared to believe it, I guess. Pity that the low-level formatter doesn't run. > The WD low level format utility refuses to run unless I give in a > Windows 98 boot disk. SInce I have no desire to put Windows 98 on my > system, that would be a bad idea. Yes? Beats me. I've never run that particular utility, partly because I'm a SCSI bigot and never have to use such things. But certainly if you're going to blow away the hard drive contents anyway, I fail to see the harm. Right? Or am I missing something? > So this means that if I continue having difficulty, I call up NewEgg > and get an RMA # (The disk is about 3 weeks old)? Well, you know, the reality of retail hard drive sales is that customers _do_ RMA drives all the time. Sometimes, the company wants to put you through diagnostic questions over the 'phone to weed out people who have rushed to the "it's broken" conclusion prematurely -- which is a depressingly high percentage -- while others just cheerfully issue you an RMA and process it. The fact that you can, with some degree of bureaucratic hassle that may differ from vendor to vendor (or manufacturer to manufacturer)[1] doesn't mean that you _should_. Suppose you send it back, wait a week or so for a new drive, install the replacement, and encounter the same problem? Suppose upon further examination, it turns out that you actually had a problem with your ATA controller, and so the drive was probably perfectly OK all along? Part of the aim of doing one's own hardware diagnosis prior to just picking up the 'phone and getting an RMA# and shipping label is to avoid (1) pointless delays and (2) self-administered embarrassment. I'm not saying "Don't RMA the drive". I'm just saying that shipping the drive back before you're fairly sure it's defective is a good way to waste time and avoid solving your problem. > What to I use to remake my Swap partition? Oh, sorry. You can do "mkswap /dev/[foo]" from the command line, e.g., on the LNX-BBC, if you like. However, you could instead just wait until you were in the RH9 installer, which will detect the existence of a swap partition and ask if you want to format and use it. [1] Just a fine point to clarify: Back in old-fogie days, when we talked about a hard drive warranty, we implicitly assumed we were talking about a _manufacturer_ warranty. E.g., calling Western Digital, in the case of your drive. But then someone invented the OEM parts resale industry. Example: IBM would have made ten pallets of SCSI hard drives for Tandem Computer, to use in Tandem minicomputers. The drive design sucked, in that the drive unit didn't support SCSI disconnect -- but that didn't matter to Tandem, because they used only one device per SCSI channel on that minicomputer, so they liked the price. Tandem ordered only eight pallets, but IBM built two more as a minimum economical order -- so they sold the extra at extreme discount to NCA Computer Products, which sold them as "IBM SCSI drives" to the public. They were dirt cheap; you bought one, found it didn't support SCSI disconnect, and called IBM Storage for an RMA. You read the serial number, which has the string "TAN" in it. The operator says "You'll need to call Tandem for problems with your minicomputer components. This part isn't warranted by us." You explain; the operator's sympathetic, suggests calling NCA. You call NCA, no answer, drive down to the service department, get in a long line. The guy at the front says "Yeah, this has a _store warranty_. If you don't like it, we can give you another one just like it -- or you can trade it in for something else we have in stock." (This actually happened. NCA eventually went broke, and few have missed them.) Some people think OEM parts and store warranties are a good deal. Opinions differ. And some manufacturers are pickier about which parts they honour warranties on than are others. But I thought you should know. -- Cheers, "I used to be on the border of insanity. However, due Rick Moen to pressing political concerns, I recently had to invade." rick@linuxmafia.com -- Kurt Montandon, in r.a.sf.w.r-j From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Jul 10 20:13:41 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19aoLs-0006UK-00 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 20:13:40 -0700 Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 20:13:40 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: RHL 9 Install problems Message-ID: <20030711031340.GW26899@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030710200914.GN26899@linuxmafia.com> <20030710133730-r01010800-f09a9a39-0910-0108@192.168.1.40> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030710133730-r01010800-f09a9a39-0910-0108@192.168.1.40> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Rick Moen X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 03:13:41 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 6368 Lines: 138 Quoting Greg Dougherty (rhl@molecularsoftware.com): > I HAD an ext2 partition on it. I did another install, however, and this is my > current setup: > hda 1: ~10 GB, NTFS > hda 2: 100 MB, ext3 /boot > hda 3: 2000 MB swap > hda 5: the rest ext3 / [...] > After reading the > first chapters of the RedHat Linux 9 Bible, I was thinking about creating the > following partitions and mount points: > > 2 GB /tmp > 2 GB /var > 8 GB /usr > 5 GB /home > `8 GB / (i.e. it get's what's left over) > > Is this reasonable for what I want to do? Is this overly complicated, and I > should just make one large partition? TIA, anyone. Really quickly, because I'm trying to get out the door: Partition layout is something of an art form, because there are many objectives you may or may not wish to further in doing it, and because furthering some of those objectives requires guesswork. Among the desiderata you _may_ be after: o Not running out of room in various parts of the system (no full filesystems, even after extended and somewhat unpredictable usage) o Ability to mount some parts of the tree read-only. o Making some parts of the tree journaled, and others not (the latter, for speed and efficiency where journaliing isn't helpful). o Using other useful mount options selectively. o Splitting drive "seeking" (head movement) between physical drives. o Locating parts of the file tree in a particular order adjacent to one another to minimise the average seek distance. (Seeking is by far the slowest operation a hard drive carries out.) o Applying quota to some parts of the tree (/home, /var/mail, /tmp). o Having a separate /usr/local for "locally installed" things. o And swap, of course. At least one partition on each physical drive. Ignore the guidelines about "3X physical RAM" and such, as they're drivel. Use your sense of what amount of swap might be actually needed, when your machine is stressed. Put it where you think it will not create "thrashing" problems (excessive seeking). o Leaving unallocated space so that you can create "scratch" partitions to move stuff around, e.g., because you guessed wrong about how big a partition had to be, and need somewhere to put its stuff while you make a bigger replacement. o Keeping the system as a whole really simple and small, especially if (as is rare, these days) you don't have gobs of space to play with. o Protecting the root filesystem from damage, by ensuring that it's simple and has the fewest possible potentially problematic things on it. A few random thoughts, starting with that last bit: 1. If, say, /usr can't be mounted at boot time because it's damaged, the tools to recover, repair, or restore it will be in /sbin or /bin. Any libs those need will be in /lib. So, it's in your interest to make sure the stuff that is _not_ needed for recovery/repair/restores is _not_ part of the root filesystem: /var /tmp /home /opt /usr 2. A lot of us think the rationale for /opt is extremely bogus. So, on my systems, it's a symlink to /usr/local/opt, because I consider /opt basically redundant to /usr/local . 3. Here's the /etc/fstab from my server, in case it's of interest: # /dev/sda5 / ext3 defaults,errors=remount-ro 1 1 /dev/sda7 none swap sw 0 0 /dev/sdb6 none swap sw 0 0 proc /proc proc defaults 0 0 /dev/fd0 /mnt/floppy auto defaults,user,noauto 0 0 /dev/cdrom /mnt/cdrom iso9660 defaults,ro,user,noauto 0 0 /dev/sda1 /boot ext2 ro,noauto,noexec,nosuid,nodev 1 2 /dev/sda6 /mnt/recovery ext2 rw,noauto 0 2 /dev/sdb7 /var ext3 rw,nodev,nosuid,noatime 1 2 /dev/sda8 /var/log ext3 rw,nodev,nosuid,noatime 0 2 /dev/sdb8 /usr ext2 ro,nodev 1 2 /dev/sda9 /usr/local ext3 rw 1 2 /dev/sdb1 /home ext3 rw,nodev,nosuid 1 2 /dev/sdb5 /tmp ext3 rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,noatime 0 2 4. Some would argue that, on a _single-user_ system, you might as well go for simplicity. Here's my laptop's fstab (which isn't quite as simple as it should be, but is closer): # /dev/hda3 / ext3 defaults,errors=remount-ro 0 1 /dev/hda2 none swap sw 0 0 proc /proc proc defaults 0 0 /dev/fd0 /floppy auto defaults,user,noauto 0 0 /dev/cdrom /cdrom iso9660 defaults,ro,user,noauto 0 0 none /proc/bus/usb usbdevfs defaults 0 0 /dev/sda /mnt/fob vfat rw,uid=1000,gid=1000,user,noauto,noatime0 0 /dev/hda1 /boot ext2 rw,noauto 0 2 5. I would _not_ have allocated the remainder of space left over to "/" . I would have a pretty small "/" partition, maybe 500MB. Maybe 6GB to /usr. 4 GB to /var. 1 GB to /tmp. Maybe a separate /usr/local of some number of gigs, ditto /home, which might get the leftover -- or you could leave a bunch unallocated, to deploy as required in the future. I'd keep "/" small with only reasonable breathing room because its purpose is to be mostly static and protected, and I'd have taken care of that by measures including carefully locating the busy stuff to other partitions. 6. Stuff to read: http://www.pathname.com/fhs/ Filesystem Hierarchy Standard. What each part of the tree is for. http://kmself.home.netcom.com/Linux/FAQs/partition.html My friend Karsten Self's opinions. 'Hope that helps. -- Cheers, We write precisely We say exactly Rick Moen Since such is our habit in How to do a thing or how rick@linuxmafia.com Talking to machines; Every detail works. Excerpt from Prof. Touretzky's decss-haiku.txt @ http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/ From rhl@molecularsoftware.com Fri Jul 11 14:22:56 2003 Received: from pimout2-ext.prodigy.net ([207.115.63.101]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19b5M0-0001Cc-00 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 14:22:56 -0700 Received: from 192.168.1.40 (adsl-66-124-255-0.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [66.124.255.0])h6BLLKIr082224 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 17:21:21 -0400 Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 14:21:07 -0700 From: Greg Dougherty To: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: <20030711031340.GW26899@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <20030711142113-r01010800-a6b549c0-0910-0108@192.168.1.40> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mailsmith 1.1.8 (Bluto) Subject: [conspire] Installing on a ASUS A7N8X Deluxe MB X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 21:22:59 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 349 Lines: 12 There's a guide at http://attila.stevens-tech.edu/~dkopko/a7n8x.txt On how to get things working on my MB. Both nVidia and ASUS have updated files to install once I have RHL finally installed and working on my computer. Should I bring a CD with those files to the party tomorrow, or will it be just as easy to download what we need? TIA, Greg From rick@linuxmafia.com Sat Jul 12 14:59:19 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19bSOl-0006oe-00 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2003 14:59:19 -0700 Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 14:59:19 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Installing on a ASUS A7N8X Deluxe MB Message-ID: <20030712215919.GF26899@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030711031340.GW26899@linuxmafia.com> <20030711142113-r01010800-a6b549c0-0910-0108@192.168.1.40> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030711142113-r01010800-a6b549c0-0910-0108@192.168.1.40> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Rick Moen X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 21:59:20 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2549 Lines: 53 Quoting Greg Dougherty (rhl@molecularsoftware.com): > There's a guide at > http://attila.stevens-tech.edu/~dkopko/a7n8x.txt > On how to get things working on my MB. Both nVidia and ASUS have > updated files to install once I have RHL finally installed and working > on my computer. Should I bring a CD with those files to the party > tomorrow, or will it be just as easy to download what we need? Sorry to be late in getting back to you. I hope this reaches you in a timely manner. Something Mike Higashi pointed out to me, this morning: Weren't you saying, in effect, that you were having problems getting RH to load onto your system at all? If that's the case, then a set of files intended for post-installation application may not help a lot. To answer your question as posed, the household does have good Internet connectivity, and I have a reliable, if somewhat pokey, CD burner. I'm just looking over the indicated document, now. In general terms, it's a guide to solving driver problems post-RH8 installation onto an Asus A7N8X Deluxe motherboard, which evidently uses an NVidia nForce2 base chipset, creating consequent challenges for video, sound, ethernet, and ATA ("IDE") support. The author wants you to initially avoid tangling with Serial ATA ("SATA"), and therefore ensure that you initially have both the hard drive and the CD drive on the primary ATA channel, i.e., as /dev/hda and /dev/hdb. (Ordinarily, you would seek to have ATA drives on different channels to the extent possible, since ATA doesn't support disconnected operation, and therefore addresses the two devices on each chain only alternately, never simuntaneously.) Post-RH8-installation, he has you run "hdparm -T -t" on your hard drive to get its technical specs. He wants you to get kernel 2.4.20 sources, some kernel patches, some (proprietary?) Nvidia kernel drivers to support their video cards, the proprietary Nvidia X11 driver for XFree86, ALSA source. Compile and install that lot. Reboot to the new kernel. Tweak the (thus-revised) ATA driver based on hdparm output. Adjust /etc/modules.conf. Tweak XFree86. Enable raw DVD access. Upgrade a few apps and utilities. It all sounds like a perfectly reasonable plan, assuming that RH8's initial installation works well enough to proceed with the rest of it. -- Cheers, The cynics among us might say: "We laugh, Rick Moen monkeyboys -- Linux IS the mainstream UNIX now! rick@linuxmafia.com MuaHaHaHa!" but that would be rude. -- Jim Dennis From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Jul 13 08:18:28 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19bicN-0006xt-00 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 2003 08:18:27 -0700 Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 08:18:27 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: RHL 9 Install problems Message-ID: <20030713151827.GA11048@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030709011953.GE7619@linuxmafia.com> <20030710122029-r01010800-f891f6dc-0910-0108@192.168.1.40> <20030710200914.GN26899@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030710200914.GN26899@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 15:18:28 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2456 Lines: 47 Quoting Greg Dougherty (rhl@molecularsoftware.com): > Ok, I ran e2fsck on my 26 gig partition. It took about 20 hours. It > did the non-destructive read-write test, reported "vdone", and has now > appeared to hang. [...] Just to let the other shoe drop, for the benefit of list readers, on your long-running woes: Greg was at Saturday's CABAL meeting with his machine, and we ran through a series of installation attempts using my RH9 CDs, getting SIG11 errors and other failures at numerous points, usually RAM-intensive operations such as the RH installer handling packages, or kernel compiles. The tests applied to the machine included running memtest86 from an LNX-BBC disk for something like an hour with both RAM sticks in place, which found no problem with the RAM. Eventually, we tried sundry operations with just one RAM stick at a time, and problems showed up consistently with one stick installed, but never with the other installed. This seemed definitive: It's a bad stick of RAM. Some points worth noting: (1) I mentioned that you really need to run memtest86 overnight to have a decent chance of catching RAM defects with it. Although it'll show up really gross defects right away, others will slip right past a 1-hour check. (2) The fact that MS-Windows seemed to work fine on a RAM stick that Linux seems to have problems with doesn't tell you anything about the suspect RAM. In fact, RAM-intensive operations under MS-Windows on such a configuration were probably silently corrupting data on the fly; MS-Windows just was showing no sign of the process. (3) As Heather Stern pointed out at the meeting, it's understandable that some RAM defects slip past memtest86, because, much as it tries to stress the RAM in order to test it, the utility does so using RAM-to-RAM operations only, not other access modes at the same time such as DMA (direct memory access) hardware calls to move data between disk and RAM. But there's a traditional torture-test that does exactly that: kernel compiles -- which in fact _is_ what most unambiguously pointed out for us where your problem was coming from. I'm very glad we were able to reach a definitive diagnosis. I'll bet you're glad to be done with it. -- Cheers, "Don't use Outlook. Outlook is really just a security Rick Moen hole with a small e-mail client attached to it." rick@linuxmafia.com -- Brian Trosko in r.a.sf.w.r-j From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Jul 13 08:34:20 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19birj-0001Dr-00 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 2003 08:34:19 -0700 Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 08:34:19 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: RHL 9 Install problems Message-ID: <20030713153419.GB11048@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030710200914.GN26899@linuxmafia.com> <20030710133730-r01010800-f09a9a39-0910-0108@192.168.1.40> <20030711031340.GW26899@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030711031340.GW26899@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 15:34:20 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1956 Lines: 38 Quoting myself: > o And swap, of course. At least one partition on each physical drive. > Ignore the guidelines about "3X physical RAM" and such, as they're > drivel. Use your sense of what amount of swap might be actually > needed, when your machine is stressed. Put it where you think it > will not create "thrashing" problems (excessive seeking). I should elaborate on that "drivel" comment. The "3X physical RAM" bit (as indicating how to estimate how much swap space you'll need) has been a bit of Unix folklore for sysadmins for decades. But it doesn't work. Consider a machine that has _8 MB_ of physical RAM -- with one of today's usual generic 40 GB hard drives. The rule of thumb would say allocate 24 MB of swap, out of 40 GB available. But that's stupid: Running that starved on operating RAM, you'll probably have very intensive need for swap, and can actually spare gobs of it from your available hard drive space. So, following the guideline would needlessly cripple your system, shorting it very badly on virtual memory. At the other extreme, consider a machine with 1 GB of physical RAM, and an old 6 GB hard drive. The odds are that, while using such a machine even quite heavily, you'll not be even coming close to loading up all of that physical RAM. Yet, the rule of thumb would say splurge half your storage on swap that won't even be used at all. A more realistic way to estimate swap requirements is to eyeball what sort of RAM loading you expect to subject the machine to, and then furnish the shortfall above and beyond physical RAM, plus a safety margin in addition. If you have hard drive space to burn, then be generous, as it never hurts to have some to spare. -- Cheers, "In 1993, the World-Wide Web was an infosystem based on hypertext. Rick Moen In 1994, the World-Wide Web was an infosystem based on hype." rick@linuxmafia.com -- Lars Aronsson From rick@linuxmafia.com Mon Jul 21 22:22:58 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19epby-0001oG-00 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 22:22:54 -0700 Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 22:22:53 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20030722052253.GO11823@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] News about RH, including beta X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 05:22:58 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1367 Lines: 42 There's an interesting press release at: http://distrowatch.com/external/RedHat-Severn-Release-Notes.html Red Hat Linux Project Introduction With this release, the Red Hat Linux product is becoming the Red Hat Linux Project, an openly-developed project designed by Red Hat, open for general participation, led by a meritocracy, following a set of project objectives. For more information, see the Red Hat Linux Project website: http://rhl.redhat.com/ [...] So, Red Hat has suddenly become a community-maintained project, starting with the current beta. Speaking of which, I've just downloaded the three ISOs for "Severn" (v. 9.0.93 beta), and would be glad to let people burn copies at this Saturday's CABAL meeting -- please bring blanks or be prepared to buy mine for $1/blank -- or to come and just install the silly thing. C'mon, you know you want to. Other things recently refreshed in my collection: * Borland Kylix Open Edition 3.0 * FreeBSD 4.8 * Gentoo 1.4rc4 stage3 * Knoppix 3.2 2003-06-06 * Linux-Mandrake 9.1 * OpenBSD 3.1 * Lycoris Desktop/LX Amethyst3 build 71 beta * Slackware 9.0 The full list of what I have on hand for installations is at: http://linuxmafia.com/cabal/installfest/#distros -- Cheers, find / -user your -name base -print | xargs chown us:us Rick Moen rick@linuxmafia.com From mark@cosmicpenguin.com Wed Jul 23 08:27:49 2003 Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net ([216.148.227.85]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19fLWm-0002M6-00 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 08:27:42 -0700 Received: from isis (12-234-96-106.client.attbi.com[12.234.96.106](untrusted sender)) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <2003072315240701400ck84ne>; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 15:24:07 +0000 From: Mark S Bilk To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Installing on a ASUS A7N8X Deluxe MB Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 08:20:46 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <03072308240504.18103@isis> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 15:27:50 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 6713 Lines: 144 In-Reply-To: <20030712215919.GF26899@linuxmafia.com>; from rick@linuxmafia.com on Sat, Jul 12, 2003 at 02:59:19PM -0700 Organization: http://www.cosmicpenguin.com I did a little research in Usenet toward installing Linux on my A7N8X. I bought the board on the strength of the dkopko article mentioned below, which, however, involves more steps than I'd like to go through if I can avoid it. Several people posted saying that SuSE 8.2 installs on it out of the box, as long as you tell the installer (or set the option yourself) to turn off ACPI. SuSE has a couple of notes about ACPI: http://sdb.suse.de/en/sdb/html/81_acpi.html http://www.suse.de/en/private/products/suse_linux/i386/acpi.html One poster said SuSE 8.2 installs version 256 of the nVidia nForce driver, which you can also just install yourself. http://download.nvidia.com/XFree86/nforce/1.0-0256/ NVIDIA_nforce-1.0-0256.suse82.i586.rpm It does everything except enable the chipset's AGP GART (Graphics Address Remapping Table), for which you still have to patch the kernel (I guess only if you use an AGP video card). Here's a good website that explains AGP, GART, etc.: http://developer.intel.com/technology/agp/ This page has links to the various versions of nForce drivers: http://www.nvidia.com/view.asp?IO=linux_nforce_archive Here are the last two versions. Ver. 261 improves on ver. 256 by, among other things, fixing a problem that prevented the good builtin audio system from working with certain games. Linux nForce Driver Version: 1.0-0261 Release Date: June 11, 2003 Linux nForce Driver Version: 1.0-0256 Release Date: April 14, 2003 "The chipset includes hardware support for IDE disk control, ethernet networking, audio support, win modem support, and a USB controller. These packages have support for ethernet networking and basic ACI audio. USB and IDE hardware will work with standard Linux drivers. There is no win modem support." Here are the files available for nForce driver ver. 261 and various common Linux distros, and also a tar file or source rpm for other situations. Apparently the source is provided for all the drivers (audio, nics, etc.) These files contain the kernel patch for the AGP GART, so its installation should be very easy if you're using the stock kernel of any of these distros (and a bit more complex, using the tarball or srpm, if you're not). Hopefully other nForce2 motherboards than the ASUS A7N8X are supported as well. Mandrake 8.2 NVIDIA_nforce-1.0-0261.mdk82up_2.4.18_6.athlon.rpm Mandrake 9.0 NVIDIA_nforce-1.0-0261.mdk90up_2.4.19_16.athlon.rpm Mandrake 9.1 NVIDIA_nforce-1.0-0261.mdk91up_2.4.21_0.13.athlon.rpm Red Hat 7.3 NVIDIA_nforce-1.0-0261.rh73up_2.4.18_3.athlon.rpm Red Hat 7.3 (Kernel Upgrade) NVIDIA_nforce-1.0-0261.rh73up_2.4.18_27.athlon.rpm Red Hat 8.0 NVIDIA_nforce-1.0-0261.rh80up_2.4.18_14.athlon.rpm Red Hat 8.0 (Kernel Upgrade) NVIDIA_nforce-1.0-0261.rh80up_2.4.18_27.athlon.rpm Red Hat 9.0 NVIDIA_nforce-1.0-0261.rh90up_2.4.20_6.athlon.rpm Red Hat 9.0 (Kernel Upgrade) NVIDIA_nforce-1.0-0261.rh90up_2.4.20_9.athlon.rpm SuSE 8.1 NVIDIA_nforce-1.0-0261.suse81.i586.rpm SuSE 8.2 NVIDIA_nforce-1.0-0261.suse82.i586.rpm Tar File NVIDIA_nforce-1.0-0261.tar.gz Source RPM NVIDIA_nforce-1.0-0261.src.rpm These files are a lot more recent that the dkopko how-to, and from what people post in Usenet, they do the job quickly and easily. For the supported distros, you just install the rpm, set ACPI=off (at least for SuSE), and patch the kernel if you're using an AGP card. All the necessary pieces are contained in each file, and the procedure is much simpler. So I think they supersede the dkopko article at this point. (Bless him for his pioneering work!) Mark On Sat, Jul 12, 2003 at 02:59:19PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: >Quoting Greg Dougherty (rhl@molecularsoftware.com): > >> There's a guide at >> http://attila.stevens-tech.edu/~dkopko/a7n8x.txt >> On how to get things working on my MB. Both nVidia and ASUS have >> updated files to install once I have RHL finally installed and working >> on my computer. Should I bring a CD with those files to the party >> tomorrow, or will it be just as easy to download what we need? > >Sorry to be late in getting back to you. I hope this reaches you in a >timely manner. > >Something Mike Higashi pointed out to me, this morning: Weren't you >saying, in effect, that you were having problems getting RH to load >onto your system at all? If that's the case, then a set of files >intended for post-installation application may not help a lot. > >To answer your question as posed, the household does have good Internet >connectivity, and I have a reliable, if somewhat pokey, CD burner. > >I'm just looking over the indicated document, now. In general terms, >it's a guide to solving driver problems post-RH8 installation onto an >Asus A7N8X Deluxe motherboard, which evidently uses an NVidia nForce2 >base chipset, creating consequent challenges for video, sound, ethernet, >and ATA ("IDE") support. > >The author wants you to initially avoid tangling with Serial ATA >("SATA"), and therefore ensure that you initially have both the hard >drive and the CD drive on the primary ATA channel, i.e., as /dev/hda and >/dev/hdb. (Ordinarily, you would seek to have ATA drives on different >channels to the extent possible, since ATA doesn't support disconnected >operation, and therefore addresses the two devices on each chain only >alternately, never simuntaneously.) > >Post-RH8-installation, he has you run "hdparm -T -t" on your hard drive to >get its technical specs. > >He wants you to get kernel 2.4.20 sources, some kernel patches, some >(proprietary?) Nvidia kernel drivers to support their video cards, the >proprietary Nvidia X11 driver for XFree86, ALSA source. Compile and >install that lot. Reboot to the new kernel. > >Tweak the (thus-revised) ATA driver based on hdparm output. Adjust >/etc/modules.conf. Tweak XFree86. Enable raw DVD access. Upgrade a >few apps and utilities. > >It all sounds like a perfectly reasonable plan, assuming that RH8's >initial installation works well enough to proceed with the rest of it. > >-- >Cheers, The cynics among us might say: "We laugh, >Rick Moen monkeyboys -- Linux IS the mainstream UNIX now! >rick@linuxmafia.com MuaHaHaHa!" but that would be rude. -- Jim Dennis > >_______________________________________________ >conspire mailing list >conspire@linuxmafia.com >http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire From mark@cosmicpenguin.com Fri Jul 25 05:13:26 2003 Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net ([204.127.198.39]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19g1Ru-0003Tg-00 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 05:13:26 -0700 Received: from isis (12-234-96-106.client.attbi.com[12.234.96.106](untrusted sender)) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <2003072512102301500qkr18e>; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 12:10:23 +0000 From: Mark S Bilk To: "Mark S Bilk" Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 05:04:00 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0307250510220A.18103@isis> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 07:17:56 -0700 Subject: [conspire] 19% Of Small- And Medium-Sized Businesses Use Linux On The Desktop! X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 12:13:26 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2373 Lines: 49 http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/07/16/HNjupiter_1.html SMBs shun Microsoft for open source Jupiter survey discovers Linux deployments on the rise By Stacy Cowley, IDG News Service July 16, 2003 NEW YORK - Some price-sensitive small and midsize businesses (SMBs) are turning to Linux and other open-source products as a lower-cost alternative to Microsoft Corp.'s ubiquitous business software, Jupiter Research found in a recent study. Surveying several hundred businesses of less than 1,000 employees, Jupiter found that 19 percent are using some form of Linux on their desktop computers. Six percent said they use OpenOffice, an open-source suite of productivity applications, with an additional 3 percent reporting plans to deploy it in their next fiscal year, according to Joe Wilcox, a Washington, D.C.-based Jupiter Research senior analyst. The sticker shock associated with Microsoft products, and the increasing ease of accessing open-source software, are leading small businesses owners to try products like the free OpenOffice and Red Hat Inc.'s Linux distribution, Wilcox said. Small businesses often buy their software at retail outlets, and when Red Hat's Linux distribution is on sale next to the latest version of Microsoft's Windows operating system for a quarter of the cost, the price difference can lead thrifty shoppers to test the cheaper option, he noted. "At the very smallest end of the market, the buying pattern of businesses is very similar to that of consumers. They're more willing to experiment," he said. "They're very price-conscious, and the (logistical) impact of bringing Linux into a company with three employees or five employees is pretty minimal compared to bringing it to an enterprise with thousands of employees." As Microsoft looks to win more business from the SMB market, it also faces obstacles in the way it's perceived: 52 percent of those surveyed by Jupiter said Microsoft is focused mainly on its own interests, with just 4 percent saying the company is focused on customer interests. "Small businesses don't feel that Microsoft is addressing their needs. When you look at the fragmentation of the market, they may also be telling Microsoft the same thing in their buying," Wilcox said. From jose_sanchez79@yahoo.com Fri Jul 25 13:24:29 2003 Received: from web20109.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.226.46]) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19g976-0001Cz-00 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:24:29 -0700 Message-ID: <20030725202154.98791.qmail@web20109.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [12.7.80.110] by web20109.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:21:54 PDT Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:21:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Jose Sanchez To: conspire@linuxmafia.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [conspire] Re: 19% Of Small- And Medium-Sized X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 20:24:30 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1359 Lines: 33 It's not that most businesses are not willing to put linux on their desktop over Windows. If Dell would announce tommorow "Linux Desktops with monitor and printer $299" on national tv, that 19% would double. Dell tried selling linux desktops two years ago but failed (maybe it was bad timing)or linux was getting more recognition in the server spectrum. http://www.silug.org/lists/silug-discuss/200108/msg00045.html I guess now their come back is in the linux workstations (servers of course). Now the last thing a small business wants to worry about is tech support, the sb is likely to want to spend that time on trying to grow their biz. If a big desktop player like Dell will guarantee low prices on PCs/support contracts, then the employer doesn't care if they are paying an extra $99/199 for just Windows. Cash and good marketing get the job done because most of the consumers don't know much about performance details. Example: Intel with MHz over AMD more MHz means faster computations etc; eventhough the 970 will kick any pentiums @$$. Microsoft and Dell have relationship that is destroying the competition in this country. Doesn't mean I won't be getting my new dual G5 system ;) Just my 0.02, Jose __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Fri Jul 25 14:04:16 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19g9jX-0001lV-00 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 14:04:11 -0700 Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 14:04:03 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: 19% Of Small- And Medium-Sized Message-ID: <20030725210403.GI11823@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030725202154.98791.qmail@web20109.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030725202154.98791.qmail@web20109.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Rick Moen X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 21:04:17 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1542 Lines: 32 Quoting Jose Sanchez (jose_sanchez79@yahoo.com): > Dell tried selling linux desktops two years ago but > failed (maybe it was bad timing)or linux was getting > more recognition in the server spectrum. > http://www.silug.org/lists/silug-discuss/200108/msg00045.html Dell was never serious about selling Linux preloads on desktops (or laptops). (1) The pricing was ridiculous: You actually had to pay _extra_ to get a not-particularly-good Red Hat preload (which, realistically, you would want to immediately blow away to get competent parititioning), and anyone with common sense bought instead the cheaper (!) Microsoft-OS preload bundle and then installed the Linux system of his choice. (2) The Web pages offering such things were deeply buried and never linked from any of Dell's main Web pages. It was essentially impossible to come across them without already knowing of them in advance. So, I ascribe no significance whatsoever to the disappearance of Dell's desktop (and laptop) offers for individual users -- because they were never realistic offerings in the first place. Please note that Dell has for many years offered Red Hat preloads on basically any model whatsoever -- and still does so -- if the order is placed through a corporate purchasing program, meeting minimum quantity requirements. -- Cheers, "Don't use Outlook. Outlook is really just a security Rick Moen hole with a small e-mail client attached to it." rick@linuxmafia.com -- Brian Trosko in r.a.sf.w.r-j From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Jul 29 00:06:31 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19hOZ5-0003iD-00 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 00:06:31 -0700 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 00:06:30 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20030729070630.GD1025@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030728190948.C11450@sonic.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030728190948.C11450@sonic.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] Re: TiVo Home Media Option X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 07:06:31 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 6350 Lines: 165 [Bill posted this to LUGOD's vox-tech mailing list. I'll be sending him a copy of this post. Some readers may not be aware that a TiVo PVR is, under the hood, a very nicely hackable Linux computer.] Quoting Bill Kendrick (nbs@sonic.net): > TiVo's advertising this new "Home Media Option," which, with the > adition of a broadband adapter (ethernet or 802.11b), allows one's TiVo > to play MP3 music and display digital photos which get grabbed off of another > PC on your LAN. > > Unfortunately, it looks like the software you use to make the files available > is only available for Windows and Macintosh. > > I e-mailed TiVo tech support and got what seemed to be a robotic answer > saying that there's no Linux version available, and there is currently no > plans. > > They didn't answer the second part of my question, so I asked it again > (and got a "Sorry, I don't know the answer to that" response)... > is the TiVo using any _known_ protocols to get these files? (SMB, NFS?) Why yes, it is. It's XML-wrapped regular files sent over plain ol' HTTP. Resource discovery can be performed using zeroconf ("Rendezvous"), but I suppose it needn't be if you don't want to. There's even an Apache plug-in to automate the stuff: http://www.tivo.com/developer/i/TiVoPM_032003.tar.gz Neat! http://www.kahunaburger.com/blog/archives/000052.html clarifies: Oh, this is pretty funny. Just a few days ago when the home media option from TiVo (http://www.tivo.com/) came out, of course I had to be among the first ones to install it. Now we have the TiVo unit in the living room connected to the home network (using a wireless USB network adapter) and I can share pictures/music from my desktop system with the TiVo unit allowing me to do slideshows on the TV-set and stream radio stations over to the living room. This is really pretty cool. So, besides sharing images/mp3s - what else can you do? Well, I went over to http://www.tivo.com/developer/ and downloaded the protocol specifications for the Home Media Option. It shows how TiVo's beacon works (how different units find each other and find out what services they have to offer) and how the http-based Media Server Protocol works. I went ahead and modified the existing example of a Media Server to serve previews of my email through the TiVo. This worked nice, however did not coexist with the TiVo Media Server, because I did not find a way how I could convince the TiVoBeacon service on my system to advertise my custom service besides the TiVoServer services. So, I scratched that idea for the moment and went a different route. Using perl (from http://www.activestate.com/Products/ActivePerl/) and some addon modules (GD, Mail::Internet, Mail::POP3Client, File::Path, File::Spec) which were easily installed via the Perl Package Manager (ppm) I created a script which would "render" email messages into PNG files. I shared a new folder (D:\DigitalPhotos\Tivo\EMail in this case) through the TiVo Desktop Server and used the script below (which is invoked on a regular basis through "Scheduled Tasks") to get my email from a number of POP3 servers and create a PNG file for each message. This allows me to preview messages on my TV when I'm not at my computer. This does not mean that I'm soo addicted to email that I have to watch it on the TV screen and it does also not mean that I'm really that often in front of the tube (fact is, that we spend less time in front of the TV since we got the TiVo unit). The output looks something like this: [image of an e-mail, snipped.] And here is the script that fetches and renders email messages. It's a non-desctructive fetch, which means that messages stay on the server. #!c:\perl\bin\perl.exe use strict; use File::Path; use File::Spec; use GD; use Mail::POP3Client; use Mail::Internet; use constant DESTINATION => q{d:\DigitalPhotos\Tivo\EMail}; use constant PREVIEW_LINES => 100; use constant WIDTH => 640; use constant HEIGHT => 480; use constant HEADER_FONT => gdMediumBoldFont; use constant BODY_FONT => gdLargeFont; my @accounts = ( { DESC => q{thoellri@foobar.com}, USER => "thoellri", AUTH_MODE => "PASS", PASSWORD => "password", HOST => "pop3.foobar.com" }, { DESC => q{tobias@somewhere.com}, USER => "tobias", AUTH_MODE => "PASS", PASSWORD => "password", HOST => "mail.somewhere.com" }, ); for my $account (@accounts) { # erase existing messages rmtree([ File::Spec->catfile(DESTINATION, $account->{DESC}) ], 0, 0); my $pop = new Mail::POP3Client (%$account); unless ($pop) { warn "Couldn't connect\n"; next; } my $count = $pop->Count; if ($count <0) { warn "Authorization failed"; next; } next if($count == 0); # no new messages # create new directory for messages mkpath([ File::Spec->catfile(DESTINATION, $account->{DESC}) ], 0, 0711); for my $num (1..$count) { my @preview=$pop->HeadAndBody($num,100); my $mail=Mail::Internet->new(\@preview); my $header=$mail->head; my $image=render($mail); my $out=File::Spec->catfile(DESTINATION, $account->{DESC},qq{message-}. sprintf("%02d",$num).qq{.png}); open(OUT, qq{>$out}); binmode OUT; print OUT $image->png; close(OUT); } $pop->Close; } sub render { my($m)=@_; my $header=$m->head(); my $im = new GD::Image(WIDTH, HEIGHT); # allocate some colors my $white = $im->colorAllocate(255,255,255); my $black = $im->colorAllocate(0,0,0); my $gray = $im->colorAllocate(20,20,20); my $red = $im->colorAllocate(255,0,0); my $blue = $im->colorAllocate(0,0,255); my $y=2; $im->string(HEADER_FONT, 5,$y, "Date: ".$header->get('Date'), $black);$y+=10; $im->string(HEADER_FONT, 5,$y, "From: ".$header->get('From'), $black);$y+=10; $im->string(HEADER_FONT, 5,$y, "To: ".$header->get('To'), $black);$y+=10; $im->string(HEADER_FONT, 5,$y, "Subject: ".$header->get('Subject'), $blue);$y+=10; $im->string(HEADER_FONT, 5,$y, "-" x 80, $black);$y+=8; foreach my $line (@{$m->body()}) { chomp($line); $im->string(BODY_FONT, 5, $y, $line, $gray); $y+=13; last if($y>=HEIGHT); } return $im; } Of course those usernames/hostnames/passwords are just samples and need to be customized for your environment. And depending on the size of your TV-set you may have to tweak those values for HEADER_FONT and BODY_FONT. Let me know, if it works for you as well .... From mhigashi@myrddin.imat.com Wed Jul 30 20:29:55 2003 Received: from adsl-207-214-84-142.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net ([207.214.84.142] helo=myrddin.imat.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19i48Y-0004yE-00 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 20:29:54 -0700 Received: (from mhigashi@localhost) by myrddin.imat.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h6V3PQK18282 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 20:25:26 -0700 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 20:25:26 -0700 From: Mike Higashi To: Cabalists Message-ID: <20030731032526.GA18086@myrddin.imat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i Subject: [conspire] Volunteers wanted at LWCE X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 03:29:56 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1305 Lines: 33 Hello, everybody. The LinuxWorld Conference and Expo is coming up soon. I will be there once again as a volunteer in the GNOME Foundation booth in the dot-org pavillion. We could use more volunteers at our booth. If you are interested in helping out, and have some free time available, please email me back off-list and I'll pass the word. Helping out at a dot-org booth is not difficult. For the GNOME Foundation, it mostly runs to things like: Explaining what the Foundation is, and why they are at the Expo. Explaining what GNOME is. Explaining some of the differences between KDE and GNOME. Selling an occasional T-shirt. Asking people if they'd like to donate money and be a Friend of GNOME. Occasionally answering a specific question about GNOME. Most of this is really easy. It probably takes 15 minutes to explain (except for the last item, where you might get some really off-the-wall questions). Hopefully there will be a GNOME developer to answer the tough ones. So if you're interested, send me your email address and what days and hours you'll be available to help out at the booth. The Expo hours are: Tuesday, August 5 10:00 am - 5:00 pm Wednesday, August 6 10:00 am - 5:00 pm Thursday, August 7 10:00 am - 4:00 pm Thanks, Mike Higashi From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Jul 31 13:17:07 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19iJrG-0000BB-00 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2003 13:17:06 -0700 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 13:17:06 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20030731201706.GI15666@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Subject: [conspire] (forw) Free passes to Linuxworld Expo X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 20:17:07 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2264 Lines: 57 Very likely an exhibits-only pass, but well worthwhile if you don't yet have one. ----- Forwarded message from Gregory Sutter ----- Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 11:19:01 -0700 From: Gregory Sutter To: announce@bafug.org, sfobug@sfobug.org, buug@weak.org, wireless@lists.bawug.org, rick@linuxmafia.com Subject: Free passes to Linuxworld Expo Organization: Daemon News, http://daemonnews.org/ X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-14.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_10,HABEAS_SWE,PGP_SIGNATURE_2,SUB_FREE_OFFER, USER_AGENT_MUTT autolearn=ham version=2.55 http://bsdmall.com/specials.html LinuxWorld Conference & Expo is the world's leading gathering place for anyone and everyone interested in Linux and other open source technologies. At LinuxWorld you can see the latest technology developments in practice, speak with the leading minds in the open source movement, and meet with your peers to discuss how to best leverage the technology for your organization. Come to LinuxWorld Conference & Expo as a Daemon News guest. Remember to keep an open and eager mind. At LinuxWorld, you will hear directly from the mouths of the world's technology thought leaders and proven Linux experts. The most comprehensive and up-to-date education and training available can be found at LinuxWorld, led by some of the brightest minds in the open source movement. There is no better way to explore your options than visiting LinuxWorld. The world's leading hardware and software vendors come to LinuxWorld to meet their customers and promote their wares, and for them, the show is all about you, the attendee. Only at LinuxWorld will you be able to evaluate and test drive the latest developments from all the leading companies in one place. It's comparison-shopping at its best. Join Daemon News this August 5-7 at LinuxWorld Conference & Expo, in booth 174, where open minds meet. Limit one per customer. Only 200 available on a first come, first serve basis! http://bsdmall.com/specials.html Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter mailto:gsutter@daemonnews.org Cheap Technologist http://daemonnews.org/ Daemon News http://BSDmall.com/ ----- End forwarded message ----- From rick@linuxmafia.com Sat Aug 09 03:06:26 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19lQcE-0002Vo-00 for ; Sat, 09 Aug 2003 03:06:26 -0700 Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 03:06:26 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20030809100626.GT15789@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] No CABAL in Menlo Park today; go to Linux Picnic! X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 10:06:27 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 608 Lines: 15 Deirdre and I will be at an unrelated event in Millbrae Saturday afternoon, so there will be no CABAL meeting on Saturday. _However_, the annual Linux Picnic in Sunnyvale's Baylands Park will be taking place until late afternoon. You should consider going if possible. It should not be missed! (This year's picnic is sponsored by Oracle Corporation, and there is no fee.) Details at: http://www.linuxpicnic.org/ -- Resize your browser so the following line touches both margins!
Best Regards, Rick Moen, rick@linuxmafia.com From bill@billsaysthis.com Sat Aug 09 09:17:44 2003 Received: from self.phpwebhosting.com ([64.65.61.215]) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19lWPX-0007jK-00 for ; Sat, 09 Aug 2003 09:17:44 -0700 Received: (qmail 28571 invoked by uid 508); 9 Aug 2003 16:13:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO littlesteven) (12.234.117.82) by self.phpwebhosting.com with SMTP; 9 Aug 2003 16:13:30 -0000 From: "Bill Lazar" To: Subject: RE: [conspire] No CABAL in Menlo Park today; go to Linux Picnic! Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 09:13:34 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <20030809100626.GT15789@linuxmafia.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 16:17:44 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1150 Lines: 38 For a LOL: http://www.billsaysthis.com/blog/blogarch.phtml?archdate=2003_08_03_blog_arc hive.phtml#106044576409879086 -----Original Message----- From: conspire-bounces@linuxmafia.com [mailto:conspire-bounces@linuxmafia.com]On Behalf Of Rick Moen Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2003 3:06 AM To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: [conspire] No CABAL in Menlo Park today; go to Linux Picnic! Deirdre and I will be at an unrelated event in Millbrae Saturday afternoon, so there will be no CABAL meeting on Saturday. _However_, the annual Linux Picnic in Sunnyvale's Baylands Park will be taking place until late afternoon. You should consider going if possible. It should not be missed! (This year's picnic is sponsored by Oracle Corporation, and there is no fee.) Details at: http://www.linuxpicnic.org/ -- Resize your browser so the following line touches both margins!
Best Regards, Rick Moen, rick@linuxmafia.com _______________________________________________ conspire mailing list conspire@linuxmafia.com http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Aug 10 13:09:50 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19lwVi-0005wq-00 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 13:09:50 -0700 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 13:09:50 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20030810200950.GU15794@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030810112727.F2BD01450B7@windy.turboslow.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030810112727.F2BD01450B7@windy.turboslow.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] Re: [vox] password stolen at linuxworld X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 20:09:51 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 3076 Lines: 61 [Ryan posted this to LUGOD's vox mailing list. I'll be sending him a copy of this post. His post detailed a post-conference break-in with follow-ups from IP = 134.173.85.208, and possible compromise of other machines he uses.] Quoting Ryan Castellucci (ryan+lugod@cal.net): > Someone at linux world seems to have gotten ahold of my ssh user password > from when I used it at linuxworld. Condolences. I'm sure you know that no executables, configuration files, or user dotfiles can be trusted from the compromised machine, and you must rebuild without reusing those. I took a look at those public-usage LWCE machines and thought "No thanks", having no confidence whatsoever in IDG's ability to admin machines competently. On some occasions, I might have been willing to ssh home from an LNX-BBC or Knoppix CD -- though that still leaves open the possibility of hardware-level snooping. > I suspect that my password was either sholder surfed (unlikely, it'd > be hard to memorize....) or someone was runnning man-in-the-middle > attacks, and forced an SSHv1 session to prevent a warning, simply > prompting for a new key. It could have been man-in-the-middle (MITM), given that you probably weren't carrying a copy of your ~/.ssh/known_hosts and ~/.ssh/known_hosts2 files with you, and were trusting local DNS for your initial connection home. You would have seen an advisory message saying the remote host's key was so-and-so, and did you wish to accept it? Doing that from an untrustworthy site is taking a huge risk (as is any use of ssh where you accept host keys you have no reason to trust). One alternative, which I _do_ use, is to carry around a copy of my known_hosts and known_hosts2 files on a USB flash drive, which I keep in my pocket. It completely eliminates MITM attacks: If I try to ssh home and my ssh client says "Warning: the host key has changed", then I know I've reached an imposter rather than my own machine, and am forewarned prior to login. If you expect to have to ssh home from untrustworthy locations such as conferences frequently, then I'd suggest setting up a second sshd on a non-standard port, that has been patched to use OPIE or S/Key (or uses the PAM OPIE module) for one-time-pad authentication. (Or you can configure your existing sshd to accept _either_ unix passwd or opie.) However you do it, once you have your system configured to accept one-time-pad authentication, you can safely enter it from presumed-compromised networks using one of the supply of one-time keys you're carrying with you, either on a paper printout or via one of the handy PalmOS applications for that purpose such as PalmKey. The bad guys can log your passwords all day long: It won't do them any good, because they're each good only once. -- Cheers, "Transported to a surreal landscape, a young girl kills the first Rick Moen woman she meets, and then teams up with three complete strangers rick@linuxmafia.com to kill again." -- Rick Polito's That TV Guy column, describing the movie _The Wizard of Oz_ From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Aug 10 21:38:42 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19m4S9-0004jF-00; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 21:38:41 -0700 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 21:38:41 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: Ryan Message-ID: <20030811043841.GU15789@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030810201032.GA22906@linuxmafia.com> <20030811004439.A6DDA144A33@windy.turboslow.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030811004439.A6DDA144A33@windy.turboslow.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: [conspire] Re: (forw) Re: [vox] password stolen at linuxworld X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 04:38:42 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1625 Lines: 41 Quoting Ryan (ryan@cal.net): > I may keep my home direcroty after manualy inspecting my dotfiles. Yeah, that's what I'd do. > Didn't touch those. Oh, you were using your own laptop? Hmm. OK. That eliminates the compromised-host problem, but leaves the risk of compromised networks. > I had a copy of a key from when I used it at keven's house. I connected by IP > address. I should have known better then to trust a host key on a hostile > network. Yes. If your ssh client informed you of a destination host key previously unknown to it, and asked if you wished to accept it, that's precisely the point where your decision equates to "Do I wish to do something risky?" If you see that message and don't expect it (or see the "Warning: the host key has changed" one), then it's a good time to become justifiably paranoid. > Yes, I know this. I suspect I was tricked into using an SSHv1 session. I'm guessing you mean you had the host's sshv2 key in ~/.ssh/known_hosts2, but were somehow maneouvered by the hostile network into opening an sshv1 connection -- which thereupon told you about a previously unknown host key, which you accepted to complete the connection (to a host doing MITM information-gathering). That's possible. The overall point I was making is that host ID is crucial: You can safely carry out encrypted connections over hostile networks all day long, but only provided that you don't accept new or changed host keys, relying solely on ones in your known_hosts/known_hosts2 files. -- Cheers, Rick Moen Age, baro, fac ut gaudeam. rick@linuxmafia.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Aug 10 23:02:10 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19m5kl-0005jG-00 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 23:01:59 -0700 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 23:01:28 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20030811060128.GY15789@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] DVD as backup media X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 06:02:10 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1448 Lines: 28 Just posting some comments I made to a friend in private mail. > I am sure that your next machine will have a dvd burner. When you > consider that a dvd holds over 6 times as much as a cd, it makes > a great backup and think of how many fewer disks it would take > to hold all those different cd's full of distros you have. I suspect DVDs make good archival media but really dreadful backup media, for pretty much exactly the reasons that CDR[W] have been a dumb choice before them: Prices for DVD-R media seem variable and subject to gimmicky conditions, but generally run about $1 per disk in bulk, give or take. Full-size DVD-RW media seem to run about $3 per disk in bulk. Experience with CDRW suggests that erasure is slow and doesn't work properly very many times in a row. DDS3 tape media are cheaper per gigabyte at acquisition and have vastly greater service life. Also, backup software is capable of cataloguing contents of backup sets on those tapes such that you can restore specific files as of specific dates, at will -- but not for DVD-R[W]. People are forever suggesting completely unsuitable and/or uneconomical media for backup. This used to surprise me, but doesn't any more. The common thread seems to be that the person making the suggestion owns hardware that makes that kind of backup physically possible, and isn't really familiar enough with real backup economics and logistics to see why it's a non-starter. From gregd@207.228.245.92 Sun Aug 10 23:41:04 2003 Received: from pimout4-ext.prodigy.net ([207.115.63.103]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19m6Ma-0006NP-00 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 23:41:04 -0700 Received: from 192.168.1.40 (adsl-64-171-255-153.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [64.171.255.153]) by pimout4-ext.prodigy.net (8.12.9/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h7B6bFVt182966 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 02:37:17 -0400 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 23:36:52 -0700 From: Greg Dougherty Subject: Re: [conspire] DVD as backup media To: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: <20030811060128.GY15789@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <20030810233659-r01010800-10934736-0910-0108@192.168.1.40> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mailsmith 1.1.8 (Bluto) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 23:44:40 -0700 X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 06:41:04 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1856 Lines: 40 The problem is that a tape drive with reasonable capacity just costs too damn much, so it leads people to look for any alternatives. Greg On 8/10/03, Rick Moen writes: > Just posting some comments I made to a friend in private mail. > > > I am sure that your next machine will have a dvd burner. When you > > consider that a dvd holds over 6 times as much as a cd, it makes > > a great backup and think of how many fewer disks it would take > > to hold all those different cd's full of distros you have. > > I suspect DVDs make good archival media but really dreadful backup > media, for pretty much exactly the reasons that CDR[W] have been a dumb > choice before them: Prices for DVD-R media seem variable and subject to > gimmicky conditions, but generally run about $1 per disk in bulk, give > or take. Full-size DVD-RW media seem to run about $3 per disk in bulk. > Experience with CDRW suggests that erasure is slow and doesn't work > properly very many times in a row. > > DDS3 tape media are cheaper per gigabyte at acquisition and have vastly > greater service life. Also, backup software is capable of cataloguing > contents of backup sets on those tapes such that you can restore > specific files as of specific dates, at will -- but not for DVD-R[W]. > > People are forever suggesting completely unsuitable and/or uneconomical > media for backup. This used to surprise me, but doesn't any more. The > common thread seems to be that the person making the suggestion owns > hardware that makes that kind of backup physically possible, and isn't > really familiar enough with real backup economics and logistics to see > why it's a non-starter. > > > _______________________________________________ > conspire mailing list > conspire@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Aug 10 23:59:17 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19m6eD-0006Vo-00 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 23:59:17 -0700 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 23:59:17 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] DVD as backup media Message-ID: <20030811065917.GB20458@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030811060128.GY15789@linuxmafia.com> <20030810233659-r01010800-10934736-0910-0108@192.168.1.40> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030810233659-r01010800-10934736-0910-0108@192.168.1.40> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Rick Moen X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 06:59:18 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 870 Lines: 20 Quoting Greg Dougherty (gregd@molecularsoftware.com): > The problem is that a tape drive with reasonable capacity just costs > too damn much, so it leads people to look for any alternatives. Reconditioned DDS3 tape drives for less than $750 are really easy to find, and DDS2 for under $550 -- and that's without even trying to shop around. If you're realistic about the quantity and cost of media you're going to need over (say) a two-year period, DAT solutions come out _way_ ahead on price. I don't think they're so much driven to look for alternatives as they are myopic about long-term considerations and kidding themselves on the number of backup sets they should keep per year. -- Cheers, I've been suffering death by PowerPoint, recently. Rick Moen -- Huw Davies rick@linuxmafia.com From gregd@207.228.245.92 Mon Aug 11 01:30:40 2003 Received: from pimout4-ext.prodigy.net ([207.115.63.103]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19m84e-0007mH-00 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 01:30:40 -0700 Received: from 192.168.1.40 (adsl-64-171-255-153.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [64.171.255.153]) by pimout4-ext.prodigy.net (8.12.9/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h7B8QsVt123764 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 04:26:55 -0400 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 01:26:32 -0700 From: Greg Dougherty Subject: Re: [conspire] DVD as backup media To: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: <20030811065917.GB20458@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <20030811012637-r01010800-fa0cf53b-0910-0108@192.168.1.40> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mailsmith 1.1.8 (Bluto) X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 08:30:41 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1058 Lines: 27 I paid less than $750 for my whole computer (not counting the monitor, which I already had). I like backups. I'm not going to double the cost of my system so that I can make a reasonable number of backups. Tape drives haven't kept up with hard drives. It sucks, but it's true. Greg On 8/10/03, Rick Moen writes: > Quoting Greg Dougherty (gregd@molecularsoftware.com): > > > The problem is that a tape drive with reasonable capacity just costs > > too damn much, so it leads people to look for any alternatives. > > Reconditioned DDS3 tape drives for less than $750 are really easy to > find, and DDS2 for under $550 -- and that's without even trying to shop > around. If you're realistic about the quantity and cost of media you're > going to need over (say) a two-year period, DAT solutions come out _way_ > ahead on price. > > I don't think they're so much driven to look for alternatives as they > are myopic about long-term considerations and kidding themselves on the > number of backup sets they should keep per year. From rick@linuxmafia.com Mon Aug 11 02:15:54 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19m8mQ-0008Sx-00 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 02:15:54 -0700 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 02:15:54 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] DVD as backup media Message-ID: <20030811091553.GC20458@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030811065917.GB20458@linuxmafia.com> <20030811012637-r01010800-fa0cf53b-0910-0108@192.168.1.40> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030811012637-r01010800-fa0cf53b-0910-0108@192.168.1.40> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Rick Moen X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:15:54 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 3927 Lines: 82 Quoting Greg Dougherty (gregd@molecularsoftware.com): > I paid less than $750 for my whole computer (not counting the monitor, > which I already had). > > I like backups. I'm not going to double the cost of my system so that > I can make a reasonable number of backups. I'm certainly not saying that's not an unreasonable stance. It's one many people take (sometimes consciously, sometimes not). But one vital question hasn't been addressed: What's your _data_ worth? The answer to that question basically tends to determine how seriously you (thereupon) take backup planning. How seriously you take backup in turn determines what strategies you take. Many people don't know the worth of their data until they've lost a few months worth of hard (and possibly irreplaceable) work product. (Of course, if you're lucky, you have little or nothing on your machines that poses that sort of problem.) There was a manager once at a firm I worked at, fifteen years back, the VP of Engineering at a software company. I was the grunt who pretty much ran company IT (which we then called "MIS"). He wanted me to spec and buy a NetWare server, which was going to do basically everything that department needed -- IPX/SPX (Novell) file & print serving, NFS, lpr printing, version control, software building, Sybase, Oracle, and backup. Budget was $20k. I looked at the list of functions, balked, politely disagreed with his assessment that these should all be done by one machine, and handed him a counterproposal of several machines that would split up those functions -- collectively coming in under the same budget. He considered me out of line, complained to my manager, and outsourced the purchase to a contractor -- who in due course delivered the requested box, and deployed it. Six months passed, seven months.... It gradually dawned on everyone that the new server was progressively but slowly corrupting all data every time it passed through RAM (even though the RAM tested OK, and the syndrome persisted after swapping out the RAM and other parts). The VP of Engineering was now faced with every software engineer's worst nightmare: He could have us restore any backup set from prior six/seven months that he wished. Did he want an old backup set? That would minimise the corrupt data, but lose 100% of what every engineer had been doing for the last half-year. Or he could restore a recent backup and regain some of the company's recent history, except that more files would have mush in them, the closer he got to the present. In the end, the firm decided to discard seven months of everyone's work -- and fire the VP of Engineering. (I did my best to keep a low profile, and say nothing sounding even remotely like "I told you so.") One lesson of that story is that backup _isn't_ protection against all threat models against one's data. But another is that the main value of computers tends to _be_ that of the data itself -- in that case, six months of a company's work and a VP's job. > Tape drives haven't kept up with hard drives. It sucks, but it's true. I think you're right. But losing a huge amount of work data can also suck. Especially when a cheap, used DDS2 drive from Action Computer ($200?) and a small pile of $6 tapes would have given you the means to recover. On the other hand, some people do just great with more-casual and/or cheaper backup methods, or just don't keep much data they'd miss on-disk. Whatever works for people is good. My job, working for companies, usually involves finding and considering realistic threat models they hadn't fully considered, and trying to plan for them appropriately. Usually, when I put it in terms of risk assessment and control, good tape backup (applied the right way) ends up being considered cheap insurance. -- Cheers, Ceterum censeo, Caldera delenda est. Rick Moen rick@linuxmafia.com From berry@housebsd.org Mon Aug 11 07:23:20 2003 Received: from corona.housebsd.org ([207.112.136.202] helo=mail.housebsd.org) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19mDZw-0004BM-00; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 07:23:20 -0700 Received: by mail.housebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 13265) id 1B838313B; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:18:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.housebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE6801C88; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:18:27 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:18:27 -0500 (CDT) From: Sean Berry To: Rick Moen Subject: Re: [conspire] DVD as backup media In-Reply-To: <20030811065917.GB20458@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:23:21 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 805 Lines: 21 On Sun, 10 Aug 2003, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Greg Dougherty (gregd@molecularsoftware.com): > > > The problem is that a tape drive with reasonable capacity just costs > > too damn much, so it leads people to look for any alternatives. > > Reconditioned DDS3 tape drives for less than $750 are really easy to > find, and DDS2 for under $550 -- and that's without even trying to shop > around. If you're realistic about the quantity and cost of media you're > going to need over (say) a two-year period, DAT solutions come out _way_ > ahead on price. > > I don't think they're so much driven to look for alternatives as they > are myopic about long-term considerations and kidding themselves on the > number of backup sets they should keep per year. And, perhaps, the cost of -not- having a backup. From rick@linuxmafia.com Mon Aug 11 15:51:57 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19mLW9-0002hj-00 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:51:57 -0700 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:51:56 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20030811225156.GE20458@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030811204208.GA11981@mother.com> <20030811211615.GA26380@logrus> <20030811220014.GA14205@mother.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030811220014.GA14205@mother.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] Re: [vox] Password NOT stolen at linuxworld X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:51:57 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 3266 Lines: 68 [Ryan posted this to LUGOD's vox mailing list. I'll be sending him a copy of this post. It turns out that the earlier surmise about where the break-in originated was premature, but entirely new questions have been raised, about Debian's "testing" branch (currently "sarge"):] Quoting Ryan Castellucci (ryan+lugod@cal.net): > On Mon, Aug 11, 2003 at 02:16:15PM -0700, Dmitriy wrote: > > On Mon, Aug 11, 2003 at 01:42:08PM -0700, Ryan Castellucci wrote: > > > OK, guys, here's the scoop... Somebody 0wned my system at > > > work, running debian testing. Installed this lovely password > > > > Testing is inherently insecure. _Don't_ run testing on any > > publically accessible computers. It doesn't get security updates. > > > > If you are lucky you will get one after a week. If you are not, the > > update can range anywhere from two weeks (all conditions for going > > into testing are satisiied and update is uploaded with normal > > urgency) to months (like waiting for new glibc to go into testing). > > > > So, I'd say you were asking to be 0wned. > > I claim IGNORANCE!!!! > > I was not aware of this, I sure wish someone had told me. I needed > newer versions of several packages that were not available in stable. > Would I be better off running sid in the future? Ryan, I have this topic covered at http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/debian-testing-security . The Debian-testing algortithm for auto-populating "testing" from packages in "unstable" is described in the Debian Testing FAQ, which I have mirrored at http://linuxmafia.com/debian/testingfaq.html , and will clarify why _automatic_ security updates cannot fully cover "testing". Please note emphasis: It's actually dead-simple to keep that branch secure. You just don't get the packages auto-delivered. I'll explain. Essentially, if you run "testing", you should subscribe to the low-traffic (announce-only) debian-security-announce mailing list, browse the alerts as they come in, and semi-manually retrieve and apply any updates relevant to your system, as you hear about them. You can make that easy by using "pinning" to make packages from unstable=sid accessible via apt-get (as described in http://linuxmafia.com/debian/tips), such that you can type (e.g.) "apt-get -b unstable install libc6", without otherwise leaving the "testing" track. Glancing through the security advisories and doing an occasional specific apt-get of the above sort suffices to fix the perceived security pitfall: If people weren't so spoiled by Debian Policy and the apt tool suite, it wouldn't even be perceived as a problem, I think. Heavens knows, it's easier to keep my testing-branch servers secure than they were when they ran other distributions, previously. Running testing isn't "asking to be owned". By contrast, running testing _plus_ failing to read debian-security-announce _is_ that, arguably. Just some perspective for you -- which Dmitriy's post did not provide, albeit furnishing quite correct information as far as it went. -- Cheers, First they came for the verbs, and I said nothing, for Rick Moen verbing weirds language. Then, they arrival for the nouns rick@linuxmafia.com and I speech nothing, for I no verbs. - Peter Ellis From star@starshine.org Tue Aug 12 11:57:47 2003 Received: from gemini.starshine.org ([216.240.40.169]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19meL5-0001Fj-00; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:57:47 -0700 Received: by gemini.starshine.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 700751448D; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:53:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:53:47 -0700 To: Rick Moen Subject: Re: [conspire] DVD as backup media Message-ID: <20030812185347.GI1625@starshine.org> References: <20030811060128.GY15789@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030811060128.GY15789@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: star@starshine.org (Heather Stern) Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 18:57:47 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2948 Lines: 56 On Sun, Aug 10, 2003 at 11:01:28PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: > Just posting some comments I made to a friend in private mail. > > > I am sure that your next machine will have a dvd burner. When you > > consider that a dvd holds over 6 times as much as a cd, it makes > > a great backup and think of how many fewer disks it would take > > to hold all those different cd's full of distros you have. > > I suspect DVDs make good archival media but really dreadful backup > media, for pretty much exactly the reasons that CDR[W] have been a dumb > choice before them: Prices for DVD-R media seem variable and subject to > gimmicky conditions, but generally run about $1 per disk in bulk, give > or take. Full-size DVD-RW media seem to run about $3 per disk in bulk. > Experience with CDRW suggests that erasure is slow and doesn't work > properly very many times in a row. There's more than one reason that I refer to CDRW's as the new floppy. In fact I do know people who religiously kept a tall stack of floppies as their backup set, including occasional checks to make sure the media was still any good. Which frankly, puts them quite far past the bell curve, it being that the average person only ever remembers to do backups once in a long while, and quite a few people are too scared of the gory technical details about getting 'em right to bother trying. Tapes have the speed - and the durability - but you can't put a decent amount of material on just one tape any more than you can put it on just one disc. Even writable DVD's aren't offering consumer-level equipment the 17G stuff ... and my drive is definitely filled with more than 17G of stuff. Luckily most of it came from the 'net and could surely be gotten again from there. Additionally luckily some of it is merely me being a packrat and I shouldn't shed tears over it if it were lost. I'd be a mite annoyed if some of my collection efforts disappeared for good, but as I occasionally give them as toys to my friends I mostly have the means to pick them back up again. Yeah, it's not exactly everyone's concept of "offsite backup". That reminds me, my homedir is due for another burn to CD ... probably multiple CDs. Not RW mind you - those I save for development efforts, so that I don't make coasters. It doesn't entirely keep me from making coasters as some of my tests happen to be on boxen that hate RW media. *oh well* I don't use DVD's for these quick burns because (a) we still haven't beaten the one DVD burner around our place into submission **, and (b) not enough machines can read DVDs yet for me to think of these as universally re-readable. Really. ** though my friend Duncan's notes may be helping me over this spot soon. I can hope. . | . Heather Stern | star@starshine.org --->*<--- Starshine Technical Services - * - consulting@starshine.org ' | ` Sysadmin Support and Training | (800) 938-4078 From star@starshine.org Tue Aug 12 13:08:16 2003 Received: from gemini.starshine.org ([216.240.40.169]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19mfRH-0002Ev-00 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:08:16 -0700 Received: by gemini.starshine.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id EA1891448D; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:04:01 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:04:01 -0700 To: Greg Dougherty Subject: [conspire] Estimating disk usage (Was: RHL 9 Install problems_ Message-ID: <20030812200401.GK1625@starshine.org> References: <20030710200914.GN26899@linuxmafia.com> <20030710133730-r01010800-f09a9a39-0910-0108@192.168.1.40> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030710133730-r01010800-f09a9a39-0910-0108@192.168.1.40> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: star@starshine.org (Heather Stern) Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 20:08:17 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 6277 Lines: 128 > After reading the first chapters of the RedHat Linux 9 Bible, I was > thinking about creating the following partitions and mount points: > > 2 GB /tmp > 2 GB /var > 8 GB /usr > 5 GB /home > `8 GB / (i.e. it get's what's left over) I'm quite late to getting to this, and the problem was eventually discovered as wicked memory, but I figured I'd expound on the art of drive partitioning, as it may be useful to many of us. For those who figure it's all old hat, maybe you can keep the note around for installfesting. > Is this reasonable for what I want to do? Is this overly complicated, and I > should just make one large partition? TIA, anyone. There are two major philosophies of disk partitioning - the "keep it simple" model, and the "by usage" model which wants to apply different security to different places. The extreme form of the "keep it simple" philosophy is what I refer to as One Big Slash - the same attitude that leads MSwin variants to just call the whole thing C: and the hell with it. A decent One Big Slash setup also needs a swap partition. To my mind it works better on smaller drives where the sector size does not get big enough to insanely waste a bunch of space. Selecting a size for your swap partition is an art all on its own. Here's the rulles that should do alright. 1. Don't give yourself less than 4 MB swap, even if you think you'll never need any. Unless you're crafting an embedded system it is not worth the headache to assume you will -* never *- use swap. 2. Try to estimate how many tasks are likely to be backgrounded, and the kind of memory they are likely to take. That's a measure of likely swap usage. 3. If you will be sometimes heavily abusing the memory, but mostly not, you may considering preparing an additional swapfile just before you get hoggy. Don't forget to add it to the usable swap with swapon, nor to free it with swapoff when it's no longer needed. 4. If your heavy uses are not so predictable, plan for swap to be aproximately your memory plus enough to hold a fairly fat program you predictably use. That'll give some clean space for the mem manager to do right things with. In my opinion more is a waste of overhead, unless the system as a whole does not have enough memory for normal services. In which case I gleefully offer my consulting services to shoehorn whatever you're trying to do with the poor beastie into RAM that it really has. For example, a 24 MB system just shouldn't run Gnome or K. It'll barely walk. This doesn't mean you can't use gtk apps with a much lighter weight WM nor that you can't have a nice little menu system. It just means trimming the fat will help a lot. The "by usage" philosophy handles two things. It allows you to mount volumes with radically different permissions, and it allows you to limit filespace use - without indulging in the gory mess known as userspace quota. The simplest example of this by far is merely to make sure a few filesystems that might have something go nuts trying to fill them, don't get to hog the drive. On a mail server this will probably be /var/sppol mail and maybe /var/log.... often simplified to just plain /var. Beware that /var contains your package managemenet setup and on Debian at least, also contains apt's download area, so don't make it too small, or else get used to the idea of doing your dist-upgrade 4 to 10 packages at a time. I typically use 300 MB or bigger. On a very busy workstation /tmp is likely to be a bleeder so it's worth keeping seperate. In my own usage, I open fairly chubby tarballs a lot with MC, so bleeding or not bleeding, I like to have a decent size /tmp area. Now the filesystem heirarchy standard stuff mumbles about /usr being able to be made readonly and frankly, I find very few people do that. But it may be handy to moutn it nodev. /usr should be a big partition with spare space since new apps will install there. I usually symlink /opt to /usr/opt or /usr/local. On dual boot two-linux setups I have made a point of seperating /usr/local - whether /usr is seperate from / or not - so that I keep sources there, and locally build packages to be used by both distros myself to be kept there. This gets rid of "which mozilla am I using" headaches. Dual Linux sharing parts is definitely an advanced topic. If you're willing to have the two distros utterly ignore each other, they may as well be big-slash setups; they can safely share the swapfile. My own baseline, assuming a fairly modern drive, is / minimum 200 MB, but usually 1G if I suspect /opt will be invoked. None of the installers I've come across deal adequately with the idea that /opt belongs in /usr somewhere imho. /var minimum 300 MB, unless I expect to hold news or mail spools or be a logserver * sometimes I will symlink /var/cache/apt/archives elesewhere /usr mountable read-only but I don't usually bother 2.5 Gb or more. Lots more if a decent size disk though I don't think I've given more than 10G yet. * /opt I usually symlink to /usr/opt /tmp can vary according to your usage - 150 MB will be way plenty for some, for others, 512 M or a gig might suit. It's gotta be writable though and if you're going for a read-only / as a goal, you must have one. /usr/local if dual-linuxing, or if you outgrew an old disk this is a good place to add and start getting things into. e.g. /usr/src could be symlinked to /usr/local/src to releive the stress. /home often on a seperate drive eventually. The math works out well for a 6G drive or better and a modern distro. But also consider that I can fit a very nice text mode debian into about 175 MB as a big-slash style, and Red Hat 3.03 gave me a decent GUI environment in about 528 MB with room to spare fod documents adn graphic bits. So it really does depend what you need to do with a box... BTW I do personal installfests as consulting gigs, if anyone needs help directly more often than the normal 'fests go. . | . Heather Stern | star@starshine.org --->*<--- Starshine Technical Services - * - consulting@starshine.org ' | ` Sysadmin Support and Training | (800) 938-4078 From skiffworks@earthlink.net Tue Aug 12 19:09:50 2003 Received: from falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.74]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19ml5C-0006iB-00 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:09:50 -0700 Received: from cpe-24-221-189-101.ca.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.189.101]) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19ml1N-0000ye-00 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:05:54 -0700 From: Bill Stoye To: Conspire Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=-Tb3EWGvEGIhC1hNxwZ4G" Organization: Message-Id: <1060740352.3169.348.camel@skiffworks.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-5) Date: 12 Aug 2003 19:05:53 -0700 Subject: [conspire] K3B/KDE X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 02:09:51 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2871 Lines: 57 --=-Tb3EWGvEGIhC1hNxwZ4G Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Running Red Hat 9 and using Gnome as the window manager, I tried to install the "K3B" CD burner software; it requires KDE, installed that from the RH9 Installation CD; using Synaptic I attempted to install K3B. Clicking on the .rpm would not open and install the program, through someones advise I was able to install it with the command line; then running "k3b setup", it gets to step 5 of 6 and freezes the machine, each and every trime; get out of that with "Ctrl,Alt,Backspace". When installing KDE, I mistakingly selected "Servers" and installed them; not really wanting servers, I tried to use "Add?Remove Applications" to remove them and I get this Error message: "The following packages could not be found on your system. Installation cannot continue until they are installed: "redhat-config-security level" required by "first boot" "redhat-config-printer-gui" required by "desktop-printing" Went to Synaptic again, it tells me they are already installed, did an 'UpGrade All"; no change in behavior. I would like to have a running K3B and remove the servers. Thanks for any help with this. Bill --=-Tb3EWGvEGIhC1hNxwZ4G Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Running Red Hat 9 and using Gnome as the window manager, I tried to install the "K3B" CD burner software; it requires KDE, installed that from the RH9 Installation CD; using Synaptic I attempted to install K3B. Clicking on the .rpm would not open and install the program, through someones advise I was able to install it with the command line; then running "k3b setup", it gets to step 5 of 6 and freezes the machine, each and every trime; get out of that with "Ctrl,Alt,Backspace".

When installing KDE, I mistakingly selected "Servers" and installed them; not really wanting servers, I tried to use "Add?Remove Applications" to remove them and I get this Error message:
"The following packages could not be found on your system.  Installation cannot continue until they are installed:
"redhat-config-security level" required by "first boot"
"redhat-config-printer-gui"      required by "desktop-printing"
Went to Synaptic again, it tells me they are already installed, did an 'UpGrade All";  no change in behavior.

I would like to have a running K3B and remove the servers.

Thanks for any help with this.
Bill --=-Tb3EWGvEGIhC1hNxwZ4G-- From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Aug 12 23:23:34 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19mp2j-00017g-00; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 23:23:33 -0700 Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 23:23:33 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20030813062333.GL20458@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030811204208.GA11981@mother.com> <200308111356.43991.wenk@praxis.homedns.org> <20030811211252.GA12920@mother.com> <1720.64.171.3.201.1060681529.squirrel@ssl.passwall.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1720.64.171.3.201.1060681529.squirrel@ssl.passwall.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Rick Moen Cc: Ryan Subject: [conspire] Re: [vox] Password NOT stolen at linuxworld X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 06:23:34 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2732 Lines: 54 [Posted to LUGOD's vox mailing list concerning Ryan's situation. I'll be sending Ryan a copy of this post.] Quoting ME (dugan@passwall.com): > If you have no log files, and the box is still running, and you have > access to mount other filesystem, you can go through proc and copy aps > loaded into memory to files in case processes were started from files that > were deleted. [...] Note that it's actually an incredibly bad idea to leave a compromised machine running, generally: If it has any connection to other networks, it may be carrying out attacks or other criminal activity -- from your IP address, which you most definitely don't want. Even if it's been yanked from all networks, you are no longer in control of it, and therefore don't know what it might do at any moment: Erase all files? Subtlely corrupt every tenth non-program file? Unless you have absolutely up-to-the-minute full backups or don't care about the machine contents, logically your first priority is to reassert control over the machine and make safety copies of anything you care about. Therefore, the safest recommendation is to _power off_ a compromised host the moment you're reasonably certain it's been compromised. Don't do an orderly shutdown: Yank the power cord. Having done that, you get your handy maintenance floppy, LNX-BBC, Knoppix disk, or what have you, and boot _it_ (rather than your hard disk/disks). Mount the contents of your system hard disk(s) read-only. Make whatever backups you need. _Then_, you can use Coroner's Toolkit or whatever else are your favourite tools -- at your leisure. > This helps get you some data. The next step I would do (without logs) is > do md5sums on a few tools like lsof and others and comapre their sigs to > those of untainted systems, and then use lsof to see what ports are opened > by what services, and then find versions for those services and check a > snort db or other places to see if any have knonw/published exploits. [...] The big problem with the indicated approach is that you simply cannot trust any results returned from processes running within a compromised runtime system. Why? _Because it's compromised!_ It's amazing how many people can't seem to get this basic point. Thus the power-down and switchover to NON-compromised maintenance media in my suggested approach, above. Obviously you shouldn't take my word for any of that, Ryan. I just suggest thinking carefully about advice such as what's quoted, as there's a tremendous amount of really, really bad security advice circulating on LUG mailing lists. (I wouldn't be the least bit annoyed at your applying equal skepticism to any security advice from _me_. In fact, I'd be delighted. ;-> ) From andy-news@schegg.org Sat Aug 16 11:15:45 2003 Received: from [64.164.98.56] (helo=mtaw6.prodigy.net) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19o5ab-0004Bn-00 for ; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 11:15:45 -0700 Received: from schegg.org (adsl-63-197-148-37.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.197.148.37]) by mtaw6.prodigy.net (8.12.9/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h7GIBWd7018052 for ; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 11:11:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F3E74D6.2000607@schegg.org> Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 11:15:50 -0700 From: Andy Schwartz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3.1) Gecko/20030425 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [conspire] Building a secure inbound gateway X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 18:15:45 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 3075 Lines: 73 I am setting up a Linux home gateway box -- replacing a Windows system. I was a bit more skilled in the windows enivronment, I could use some input for a piece of this Linux migration. I want to provide secure remote access to my internal LAN. The remote clients will include a windows box at my office. I thought that IPsec using FreeS/WAN might be the most flexible way to do this. Studying a variety of help/how-to documents, including Nate Carlson's frees/wan <-> win2k doc, it appeared that to do this successfully I would need the following on the Linux side: - FreeS/WAN - The X.509 FreeS/WAN patch I have (I believe) successfully installed both, including the requisite kernel rebuild. I then started to follow Nate's and FreeS/WAN's and X.509 Patch's configuration documents. I am now in pain. For starters, when I start FreeS/WAN - using any of the configuration scenarios the various authors discuss - FreeS/WAN installs a _2nd_ default route into my routetable. That entry immediately breaks the forwarding of packets from my internal home machines out to the Internet. Routing table before I perform start ipsec: =========================================== Destination Gateway Genmask Flags Iface 63.197.148.0 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.0 U eth0 192.168.11.0 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.0 U wlan0 192.168.10.0 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.0 U eth1 127.0.0.0 0.0.0.0 255.0.0.0 U lo 0.0.0.0 63.197.148.254 0.0.0.0 UG eth0 Routing table after I perform start ipsec: ========================================== Kernel IP routing table Destination Gateway Genmask Flags Iface 63.197.148.0 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.0 U eth0 63.197.148.0 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.0 U ipsec0 192.168.11.0 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.0 U wlan0 192.168.10.0 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.0 U eth1 127.0.0.0 0.0.0.0 255.0.0.0 U lo 0.0.0.0 63.197.148.254 128.0.0.0 UG ipsec0 128.0.0.0 63.197.148.254 128.0.0.0 UG ipsec0 0.0.0.0 63.197.148.254 0.0.0.0 UG eth0 As soon as this second 0.0.0.0 routing entry is created, all LAN->Internet forwarded packets attempt to go out ipsec0 and are immediatley dropped by my IPTables configuration. There is something fundamental about how FreeS/WAN is supposed to work that I don't understand. I would expect a routing entry, to ipsec0, that represents a simulated LAN on the far end of a VPN pipe, but I don't expect an entry that routes all traffic to ipsec. I must be missing something fundamental. (It irks me that the above tutorials say little, if anything, about the routing table.) Any help and advice would be appreciated. (In case your wondering, the freeswan.org list server appears to not be accepting join requests right now, which is why I'm looking here first for support. Plus, there are some really experienced folks on this list!) Thank you. Andy Schwartz From andy-news@schegg.org Sat Aug 16 12:06:00 2003 Received: from [64.164.98.56] (helo=mtaw6.prodigy.net) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19o6NE-0004aj-00 for ; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 12:06:00 -0700 Received: from schegg.org (adsl-63-197-148-37.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.197.148.37]) by mtaw6.prodigy.net (8.12.9/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h7GJ1ld7002559 for ; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 12:01:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F3E809D.6060507@schegg.org> Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 12:06:05 -0700 From: Andy Schwartz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3.1) Gecko/20030425 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [conspire] Re: Building a secure inbound gateway X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 19:06:01 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1211 Lines: 50 Ask a question, find your own answer... This is often how it works, though after spending 8 hours yesterday working on this stuff I am a bit embarrassed how quickly I found a solution after posting to this email list. I continued to look around and found the following buried in the freeS/WAN manual under Policy Groups: ---------------- Disabling Opportunistic Encryption To disable OE (eg. policy groups and packetdefault), cut and paste the following lines to /etc/ipsec.conf: conn block auto=ignore conn private auto=ignore conn private-or-clear auto=ignore conn clear-or-private auto=ignore conn clear auto=ignore conn packetdefault auto=ignore ----------------- Surprise, the added routes go away. Actually something I had read earlier implied that Opportunistic Encryption (OE) was responsible for some of those added routes, but it was NOT clear that the above connection types were related to this OE features. (And I had tried other commands to turn off OE, without effect.) Anyway, I HOPE this helps someone else in the future. I suspect, unfortunately, that I'll be back with more questions on this support shortly. Thanks for reading! Andy From conspire-bounces@linuxmafia.com Fri Sep 5 21:25:06 2003 Path: not-for-mail Message-ID: From: Rick Moen Newsgroups: cabal.conspire Organization: If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already. Summary: Keywords: User-Agent: tin/1.5.17-20030301 ("Bubbles") (UNIX) (Linux/2.4.19-686 (i686)) Xref: linuxmafia.com cabal.conspire:116 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: [conspire] Testing the news -> mail gateway X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 04:25:06 -0000 X-Original-Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 21:02:33 -0700 X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 04:25:06 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 449 Lines: 10 This is just a test post from the newsgroup side of things, from news://linuxmafia.com/cabal.conspire/ . (I think that's the URL.) For a while, with the old version of Mailman, the transport of mail from newsgroup to mailing list has been broken. The other direction has always worked. -- Cheers, "Linux means never having to delete your love mail." Rick Moen -- Don Marti rick@linuxmafia.com From conspire-bounces@linuxmafia.com Fri Sep 5 21:45:01 2003 Path: not-for-mail Message-ID: From: Rick Moen Newsgroups: cabal.conspire Organization: If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already. Summary: Keywords: User-Agent: tin/1.5.19-20030610 ("Darts") (UNIX) (Linux/2.4.19-686 (i686)) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 21:43:04 -0700 Xref: linuxmafia.com cabal.conspire:226 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: [conspire] Test #6 X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 04:45:01 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 356 Lines: 8 This is just (another) test post from the newsgroup side of things, from news://linuxmafia.com/cabal.conspire/ . (I think that's the URL.) For a while, with the old version of Mailman, the transport of mail from newsgroup to mailing list has been broken. The other direction has always worked. I've done some reconfiguration, hoping to finally fix it. From conspire-bounces@linuxmafia.com Mon Sep 8 17:05:02 2003 Path: not-for-mail Message-ID: From: Rick Moen Subject: Re: [conspire] K3B/KDE Newsgroups: cabal.conspire References: Organization: If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already. User-Agent: tin/1.5.19-20030610 ("Darts") (UNIX) (Linux/2.4.19-686 (i686)) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 17:04:42 -0700 Xref: linuxmafia.com cabal.conspire:227 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 00:05:02 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 3582 Lines: 79 Just catching up on old threads. That's the nice thing about using the NNTP/newsreader side of this mailing list / newsgroup setup: You can respond to any past message, even the ones you've long ago deleted from your mailbox. Bill Stoye wrote: > Running Red Hat 9 and using Gnome as the window manager, I tried to > install the "K3B" CD burner software; it requires KDE, installed that > from the RH9 Installation CD; using Synaptic I attempted to install K3B. > Clicking on the .rpm would not open and install the program, through > someones advise I was able to install it with the command line; then > running "k3b setup", it gets to step 5 of 6 and freezes the machine, > each and every trime; get out of that with "Ctrl,Alt,Backspace". > > When installing KDE, I mistakingly selected "Servers" and installed > them; not really wanting servers, I tried to use "Add?Remove > Applications" to remove them and I get this Error message: > "The following packages could not be found on your system. Installation > cannot continue until they are installed: > "redhat-config-security level" required by "first boot" > "redhat-config-printer-gui" required by "desktop-printing" > Went to Synaptic again, it tells me they are already installed, did an > 'UpGrade All"; no change in behavior. > > I would like to have a running K3B and remove the servers. Wow, it sounds as if the package-management system has somehow become deeply confused. One thing that might help (and cannot hurt) is to rebuild the RPM package database. _Close_ all package-management programs, then open a root-user shell, and do: # rpm -v --rebuilddb | more (The -v is the "verbose" switch. I just prefer to see details.) I assume you were trying to use Synaptic as a package-management front-end to remove the KDE "Servers" packages (whatever those are). In the above, you don't say clearly what software tool you used; you say only you used "Add/Remove Applications" (which leaves us hanging a bit, but I'm _guessing_ you're referring to a screen within Synaptic). Ordinarily, I would expect Synaptic (if that's what you used) to be able to deal intelligently with your already-installed packages, contrary to the rather wacky output you quote at the end. If rebuilding the RPM database doesn't do the trick, then it's probably best to switch to a lower-level tool, the /usr/bin/rpm command-line package tool, in order to de-complicate your diagnostic situation. # rpm -qa | more ...will list the names and versions of all installed packages. # rpm -e packagename ...will remove packagename. (Specify _just_ the name, not name+version.) You can/should put the list of all the aforementioned "Servers" package names on one such command line, and let 'er rip. That, with reasonable luck, will fix your second problem (that of undesired packages, and a misbehaving package front-end program). As to the original problem (installing K3B), you don't really give us a lot to go on: > I was able to install it with the command line; What does this mean? What command line? Would you mind saying specifically what you mean? > ...then running "k3b setup", it gets to step 5 of 6 and freezes the machine One problem is that probably nobody here has any idea what "step 5" is. If you'd like us to help you, you'll have to be a lot more specific. No offence intended; that's just the way it is. -- Cheers, Wall Street has all the emotional stability of a Rick Moen thirteen-year-old girl. -- Louis Rukeyser rick@linuxmafia.com From macke@scripps.edu Wed Sep 10 14:04:54 2003 Received: from ns1.scripps.edu ([192.42.82.59]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19xC90-00005E-00 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 14:04:54 -0700 Received: from antigen.scripps.edu (antigen.scripps.edu [137.131.200.100]) by ns1.scripps.edu (8.11.7/TSRI-4.2rx) with SMTP id h8AL44L08104 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 14:04:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay1.scripps.edu(137.131.200.29) by antigen.scripps.edu via csmap id 20478; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 14:03:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fermat.scripps.edu (fermat [137.131.252.33]) by relay1.scripps.edu (8.11.7/TSRI-4.4.1rAVB) with ESMTP id h8AL2qI23217; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 14:02:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (macke@localhost) by fermat.scripps.edu (SGI-8.9.3p2/TSRI-3.2.1) with SMTP id OAA33135; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 14:02:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 14:02:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Macke X-Sender: macke@fermat To: Rick Moen In-Reply-To: <20030521091559.GF29924@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: [conspire] linux antivirus? X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 21:04:55 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 246 Lines: 9 Our head IT guy just asked me if I knew of any linux "antivirus" package that we could get. I think I saw that there was recently a linux virus, but just figured that that solution was keep the patches current. Any suggestions? Thanks, tom From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Sep 10 18:00:11 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19xFoh-0005lG-00 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 18:00:11 -0700 Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 18:00:11 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] linux antivirus? Message-ID: <20030911010011.GH10351@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030521091559.GF29924@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 01:00:12 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 5217 Lines: 135 Quoting Tom Macke (macke@scripps.edu): > Our head IT guy just asked me if I knew of any linux "antivirus" package > that we could get. I think I saw that there was recently a linux virus, > but just figured that that solution was keep the patches current. Any > suggestions? Hmm, this is a topic that tends to devolve into a lot of subtopics, many of them in response to "Yes, but..." questions from people to whom the answer is alien to the point of incredulity. The concept of "Linux antivirus package" can mean one of two very different things. 1. Quarantining and scrubbing of MS-Windows (and possibly other foreign-OS) files temporarily resident on Linux, e.g., because your Linux box is a Samba server (Windows file/print) or an SMTP/POP3/IMAP server holding mail that is then handed to Windows MUAs (mail clients). 2. Quarantining and scrubbing of other files on Linux to protect against Linux malware. 3. Or it can mean that the IT guy in question really hasn't the faintest idea what he means, but just has a spinal reflex to put "antivirus" software on any machine whatsoever. I'm going to address case #1 in this e-mail. I'll probably get to case #2 later, because that's where discussion tends to become endless and branch out in lots and lots of directions. Why? Because the short form of the answer is "There'd be no point. Linux malware may be easy to create but it's in practice impossible to propagate, because of cautionary mechanisms that are enforced by Linux architecture and culture. Any attempt at an 'antiviral' package would be a huge system threat in itself, and would tend to give wielders of root-user access a false sense of security, since that privilege is already a much bigger threat to the system than malware (viruses, etc.) is. Anyhow, as to virus-checkers that run on virus to find and remove other-OS viruses. Here are some links I found by googling: Mailscanner: http://www.sng.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mailscanner/ http://packages.debian.org/unstable/mail/mailscanner.html Clam AntiVirus (ClamAV) and OpenAntiVirus: http://clamav.elektrapro.com/ http://www.openantivirus.org/ http://packages.debian.org/unstable/utils/clamav.html McAfee VirusScan (Apparently, a number of Linux MTAs can be used with the McAfee viruscan virus-definition files. No link, exactly, but you can google for "mcafee antivirus linux" to find relevant materials.) AMaViS Virus Scanner / AMaViS-ng / amavisd-new http://www.amavis.org/ Bit Defender http://www.bitdefender.com/bd/site/solutions.php?menu_id=8&s_id=4 http://www.bitdefender.com/bd/site/products.php?p_id=11 Kaspersky Anti-Virus for Linux http://www.kaspersky.com/buyonline.html?chapter=595425&tgroup=4 Trend Micro Interscan Viruswall http://www.trendmicro.com/ Sophos AntiVirus http://www.sophos.com/products/sav/ F-Prot http://www.f-prot.com/ http://packages.debian.org/unstable/utils/f-prot-installer.html [$300 for Small Business & $450 for Enterprise Business] F-Secure http://www.f-secure.com/products/anti-virus/firewalls/linux.shtml Kaspersky Labs http://www.kasperskylabs.com/products.html?fos=3&os=%3E eTrust Antivirus (formerly InoculateIT) http://www3.ca.com/Solutions/Product.asp?ID=156 (Note: Computer Associates is where formerly OK software companies go to be embalmed and their customer-based milked after they've died.) CommandAV http://www.authentium.com/solutions/products/commandantivirus.cfm Vexira Antivirus for Linux Workstation http://www.centralcommand.com/ Panda Antivirus for Linux http://www.pandasoftware.com/com/linux/linux.asp AntiVir for Linux http://www.hbedv.com/ The above list is mostly gathered from other sources. Please note that I have _zero_ experience with these packages. ClamAV appears to have a good reputation, though, and is open-source. A few words about case #3 (IT guy has no clue, but insists reflexively that any comporate computer must run "antivirus software"): Sometimes, rather than argue with the guy and try to educate him, it's best to tell him what he wants to hear. That is, tell him that he raised an excellent point, and you appreciate being reminded of that company-critical issue. Therefore, you've deployed the extremely effective antiviral package comprising Exim and Spamassassin. (See: http://marc.merlins.org/linux/exim/sa.html) Tell him that _zero_ Sobig.F e-mails ever get past that combination (which is true). You _don't_ have to tell him that the package's design goal has nothing whatsoever to do with viruses, but rather aims to eliminate almost all junkmail during the SMTP session rather than after delivery. What he doesn't know won't hurt him. If you don't deploy the Exim-SA combo, you can still (correctly) tell him that your anti-virus package's name is "procmail" (used as mail delivery agent). Procmail with a modest collection of filters is (possibly, maybe) at least as effective as dedicated virus scanners for case #2 (native Linux viruses), given the fact that they're basically nonexistent. More about case #2 in a separate mail. -- Cheers, Wall Street has all the emotional stability of a Rick Moen thirteen-year-old girl. -- Louis Rukeyser rick@linuxmafia.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Sep 10 21:06:31 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19xIj1-0001a3-00 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 21:06:31 -0700 Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 21:06:31 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] linux antivirus? Message-ID: <20030911040631.GJ10351@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030521091559.GF29924@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 04:06:32 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 6710 Lines: 140 Quoting Tom Macke (macke@scripps.edu): > Our head IT guy just asked me if I knew of any linux "antivirus" package > that we could get. I think I saw that there was recently a linux virus, > but just figured that that solution was keep the patches current. Any > suggestions? OK, I also promised to address case #2, which was: 2. Quarantining and scrubbing of other files on Linux to protect against Linux malware. I also said: I'll probably get to case #2 later, because that's where discussion tends to become endless and branch out in lots and lots of directions. Why? Because the short form of the answer is "There'd be no point. Linux malware may be easy to create but it's in practice impossible to propagate, because of cautionary mechanisms that are enforced by Linux architecture and culture. Any attempt at an 'antiviral' package would be a huge system threat in itself, and would tend to give wielders of root-user access a false sense of security, since that privilege is already a much bigger threat to the system than malware (viruses, etc.) is. I have four consecutive essays on the "Linux virus" topic, readable starting at: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/#virus They address: o Should I get anti-virus software for my Linux box? o But didn't security expert Simson L. Garfinkel say that all Linux systems need to run virus checkers? o Don't the rise of Linux worms like Ramen, 1i0n, Red Worm, Adore, Cheese, lpdw0rm, and Slapper show that Linux now has a virus problem? o Isn't Microsoft Corporation's market dominance, making Linux an insignificant target, the only reason it doesn't have a virus problem? The essays are... sort of badly organised, and aren't the way I'd approach the matter today, but they weren't written as a whole, but rather started from one or two observations and then grew additional material and sub-points the way a dog gets fleas. Nonetheless, somewhere in that lengthy mess are my answers to pretty much all of the debate points about Linux viruses (and mainly the native-Linux variety contemplated in case #2, as opposed to other-OS viruses transiting through Linux in Samba shares, NFS shares, mailspools, etc. Note: I'm certainly not saying that software vulnerabilities don't create threats. I don't deny that you can easily create a Linux virus. In fact, to save the trouble, here's one you can download: http://math-www.uni-paderborn.de/~axel/bliss/bliss.txt Do "uudecode" and then gunzip to unpack it. Name it "bliss". Last, don't forget to chmod u+x the thing, to make it executable. Isn't it cute? It's a gen-u-ine Linux virus, coded as an i386 ELF binary. No fooling. But are you frightened? I mean, there's a real, Linux virus, right there on your Linux computer's hard drive. It's even executable! It's going to run and then spread everywhere, right? Well, no. It's just sitting there -- which is what _even_ a mean, nasty piece of malware does if you've somehow contrived to put it on a Linux box, unless and until you make it executable and run it. And what happens if you run it? It can do stuff -- potentially, whatever the user it runs as can do. If you run it with your user authority, it can do any damage that you yourself could do. But why would you run it? A point: By and large, processes don't run themselves. That key observation tends to get lost on MS-Windows users, because, from their perspective, it (often) seems that things just happen without anyone being in charge. The notion of malware not being able to do anything because you _don't run it_ doesn't occur to them. In fact, MS-Windows can be (pretty much) safe from viruses in about the same way, like this: 1. Don't run untrustworthy software. 2. Don't run software that autoruns untrustworthy software on your behalf. 3. Have recovery plans for when sundry mishaps happen. For many years when I ran MS-Windows, that was my _sole_ antivirus protection, and it worked. Rule #2 meant no MS-Internet Explorer, MS-Outlook Express, or MS-Outlook, since those have a dismal history of autorunning "active content" from random locations on the Internet against all common sense. It also meant that MS-Word and MS-Excel were liabilities on account of the AutoOpen macro feature, which was/is the key design error in them that made possible the entire category of VBA macro viruses. Prior to Word/Excel 97 or so, you quasi-fixed this design error by downloading scanprot.dot for Word and xlscan.xls (I think) for Excel, which installed _protective_ macros in (respectively) the normal.dot and personal.xls global-defaults files, so that Word and Excel no longer auto-ran document macros (let alone without telling you) just because you've opened the document. _Only_ after installing those protections did I consider Word/Excel safe to use. You're probably seeing a running theme, here: programs auto-running stuff that nobody in his right mind would trust, without even consulting the user. Unacceptable. And yet, this is what _most_ MS-Windows users accept daily, without a second thought. (MS-Windows software references above date to the Win95/Office95 days, but the same principles still apply.) And doesn't this also happen on Linux, you might ask? Not really. It could, but the large and active technically aware portion of the community would apply a cluestick to the programmer until he fixed it. For example, you cannot find among the 115-odd e-mail clients for Linux even _one_ that automatically executes "attachments" received in the mail. Software is designed to not require excessive system authority to operate. Generally, on account of how the system is designed, it's difficult to get in trouble from malware even if you're dumb enough to over-use the root-user account -- or, at least, malware is the least of such users' worries, as they themselves are far more likely to cause system damage. The areas where problems or potential problems occasionally crop up include /etc/mailcap and mime.types entries, which sometimes prove to be insufficiently paranoid about what is allowed to handle received files and with what runtime options. But the point is that such matters are heavily scrutinised and tweaked, usually far in advance of even theoretical exploits. I'm deliberately _not_ replicating what's in my four rambling virus essays, so I'd appreciate it if people would slog through those before begging to differ with the above. (Sorry about their length.) -- Cheers, "Azathoth need not be present to win." Rick Moen -- Charles O. Baucum, Jr. rick@linuxmafia.com From BlueBoar@thievco.com Wed Sep 10 22:26:49 2003 Received: from mtaw4.prodigy.net ([64.164.98.52]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19xJyj-0003eE-00; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 22:26:49 -0700 Received: from thievco.com (adsl-64-167-139-58.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [64.167.139.58]) by mtaw4.prodigy.net (8.12.9/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h8B5Pw6O005775; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 22:25:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F600762.5020600@thievco.com> Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 22:25:54 -0700 From: Blue Boar User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4.1) Gecko/20030906 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rick Moen Subject: Re: [conspire] linux antivirus? References: <20030521091559.GF29924@linuxmafia.com> <20030911040631.GJ10351@linuxmafia.com> In-Reply-To: <20030911040631.GJ10351@linuxmafia.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.7.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 22:28:17 -0700 Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 05:26:49 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1805 Lines: 38 Rick Moen wrote: > o Should I get anti-virus software for my Linux box? Why don't you discuss RST.A, RST.B, and OSF? Those are the most "successful" Linux viruses I've seen in the wild. > o Don't the rise of Linux worms like Ramen, 1i0n, Red Worm, Adore, > Cheese, lpdw0rm, and Slapper show that Linux now has a virus problem? You state at one point "cannot take over (infect) the local machine (or any other): It lacks permission to do so. Nor can the other Linux/Unix viruses / worms / trojan horses thus far known." The worms most certainly do so, that's the definition of a worm. I've personally tracked (at peak) thousands of infected linux machines for the three variants of lion and lpdw0rm. Most of them get root by popping a root service, too. > o Isn't Microsoft Corporation's market dominance, making Linux an > insignificant target, the only reason it doesn't have a virus problem? I'm of the opinion that the market dominance thing is a valid argument, but that's just my opinion. It's only anyone's opinion until Linux is running on 90%+ of the desktops. You can observer that the most popular malicious code platform used to be DOS when that was the most popular platform, now it's Windows. There's a correlation, but you can't prove causality. Most of the people I know who use Linux as a desktop OS run as root, I do. I also run my windows boxes as administrator. I don't get infected because I know what I'm doing, I know what malicious code looks like, and I know what risky behaviour is. The problem is ignorant users. When all the ignorant users move to Linux, they will bring the malicious code problems with them. You can have all the security measures you like (NT4/2K/XP/2K3 have them) but ignorant users don't use them. BB From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Sep 11 00:16:45 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19xLh6-000606-00 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 00:16:44 -0700 Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 00:16:44 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] linux antivirus? Message-ID: <20030911071644.GL10351@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030521091559.GF29924@linuxmafia.com> <20030911040631.GJ10351@linuxmafia.com> <3F600762.5020600@thievco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3F600762.5020600@thievco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 07:16:45 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 9866 Lines: 217 Greetings, O Blue Boar, and welcome to CABAL. Quoting Blue Boar (BlueBoar@thievco.com): > Why don't you discuss RST.A, RST.B, and OSF? Those are the most > "successful" Linux viruses I've seen in the wild. There's the verbosity problem, for starters. The only places in those four essays where I've discussed specific pieces of Linux malware were (1) bliss (to make the point that Linux viruses are nothing new) and the seven worms in http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/#virus3 (to make the point that those are not themselves problems, but rather an aftereffect of a larger problem). Refreshing my memory of the ones you mention: RST.A: ELF infector. Propagates by... well, it doesn't propagate. You have to be dumb enough to manually run an unknown binary from an untrustworthy source. Doing so would of course have no effect on system binaries except those in ~/bin, because you would never in a million years -- even if you were stupid enough to run an unknown binary from an untrustworthy source -- be so mindblowingly stupid as to do so as a privileged (e.g., root) user. Er, correct? (Clouds are starting to gather over the discussion, at this point.) I mean anyone who commits those consecutively and additively stupid steps is doing the equivalent of aiming a .45 at his foot and firing repeatedly. (The process also creates a backdoor on a high-numbered UDP port, but that's not very relevant.) RST.B: ELF infector. See remarks about RST.A. OSF (aka OSF.8759): ELF infector. See remarks about RST.A. Additionally to the above, I suspect that "successful" basically means that a friend-of-a-friend once claimed that someone, somewhere, got tricked in some very contrived set of circumstances, into running a copy. There is a long history of claims propagated by the antivirus industry of "Linux viruses in the wild" that turn out, upon examination, to have been cooked-up scenarios in the "wild" corner of some antiviral company's research lab. I mean who the _fsck_ would run such stuff, and do so as root? Maybe some real moron gamer who hangs out on irc while running as root, gets DCC'd some R4D K00L filez from another net.random, and like a blithering idiot _runs them_? We'll return to the matter of unbelievably stupid use of the root account, below. (You know it's coming, right?) > >o Don't the rise of Linux worms like Ramen, 1i0n, Red Worm, Adore, > > Cheese, lpdw0rm, and Slapper show that Linux now has a virus problem? > > You state at one point "cannot take over (infect) the local machine (or any > other): It lacks permission to do so. Nor can the other Linux/Unix viruses > / worms / trojan horses thus far known." > > The worms most certainly do so, that's the definition of a worm. This is not exactly an accurate characterisation: What they do is run a canned remote exploit against some notoriously vulnerable, obsolete version of a (usually overfeatured) network daemon -- usually BIND8, wu-ftpd, rpc.statd, or lpd. They do _not_ first come into the system and then grind away at escalating authority via the equivalent of running the "crack" utility, or searching the system from inside for vulnerable privileged libs, or such. Please note that I address that matter comprehensively in http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/#virus3 . > I've personally tracked (at peak) thousands of infected linux machines > for the three variants of lion and lpdw0rm. Most of them get root by > popping a root service, too. 1i0n ("lion") would have been around early 2001, and was an exploit against the security basket-case BIND8 codebase. BIND8 was well known to be obsolete and untenable for future development, and so was being limped along with patches as needed, until it could be abandoned. The from-scratch rewrite, BIND9, was released around October 2000, so I can understand admins still shying away from BIND9 versions in early 2001, until it had a track record. _However_, what I cannot understand is admining BIND8 at that extremely late date in its notoriously bad product history and not be aware of the need to be on some relevant security-alert mailing list and act accordingly. What I'm saying is that those thousands of Linux machines' sysadmins were asleep at the wheel. They therefore had much bigger problems than "worms" -- like ineptitude. Aside: Unmaintained Red Hat boxes, right? Thought so. > I'm of the opinion that the market dominance thing is a valid argument, but > that's just my opinion. At the risk of reiterating the point in http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/#virus4, where's that 1% Linux "virus" traffic? It's not there. Not even 1%. Not .01%. Not .001%. Absent. On the other hand, SoBig.F _tripled_ the volume of incoming SMTP on my quite busy mail server. It hasn't gone down yet. > It's only anyone's opinion until Linux is running on 90%+ of the > desktops. No, it's not. If market dominance were even a minor factor, then there would be _some_ ongoing blitz of Internet virus traffic specific to Linux servers and Linux scientific workstations. But it's not there at all. > Most of the people I know who use Linux as a desktop OS run as root.... I hope you warn them at all possible opportunities that they need to shed the habit. > I do. Whoops. I'm sorry, but that's being Darwin's client. It's something people do who haven't yet figured out chmod, chgrp, the sgid bit, adding yourself to necessary groups (but not those _not_ necessary), and judicious use of sudo and "su -" (or "ssh -X root@localhost"). I mean, the very thought of running Web browsers and window managers, let alone GNOME or KDE, with root authority is utterly ghastly. I mean, I barely trust myself with "mv" and "chown" at a root _shell prompt_, and that's without help from buggy graphical cruft. > I also run my windows boxes as administrator. I'll be blunt: That's equally stupid. (You _did_ know I was going to say that, I hope?) > I don't get infected because I know what I'm doing, I know what > malicious code looks like, and I know what risky behaviour is. Never mind being "infected", what about buggy software going haywire with root or administrator authority? What about mistakenly moving some entire directory of crucial files with a careless swip of your mouse? Wielding maximum permissions all the time is foolish. > The problem is ignorant users. When all the ignorant users move to > Linux, they will bring the malicious code problems with them. Not really. Consider the MUA matter. We have 115 of them now (http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/muas.html), including a number that successfully cater to the traditional "desktop" crowd (Evolution, KMail, Balsa, Sylpheed). On every single one of the 115, what happens if you mail them executable attachments? Do they autorun them on your behalf? Nope. How _do_ you run them? Well, first you save them to /tmp. Then you can run them. No, wait! That's not true: The file gets saved with 644 permissions. So, first you have to turn on the executable bit, _then_ you can run them. Here's another for-instance: Hey, everybody knows that Lindows OS is a security disaster because you always are running with root authority, right? They got flamed enough for that. Well, that actually wasn't exactly the case: In Lindows OS 1.0 only, the installation default included a kdm option to autologin as the a particular user, and it was made easy to select that option and make the user be root. Contrary to rumour, the security model and separation of privileged from non-privileged EUIDs had _not_ been erased: Regular Linux security was still in place and users were perfectly able to use non-root privilege, by default or at will. However, even _that_ created so much controversy that version 1.1 made configuring the box during setup to autologin as root nearly impossible, just to placate the critics. The point is that the security model is deeply ingrained in both the software architecture and the culture. It can be sabotaged, but hardly anyone can do so completely unconsciously. (Can you tell me with a straight face that you had not the least notion that it's considered reckless to do everything as root, and that you aren't ignoring such advice quite deliberately? A few people might be able to honestly do so -- _if_ they've completely ignored all documentation and glued their eyes and ears shut.) > You can have all the security measures you like (NT4/2K/XP/2K3 > have them) but ignorant users don't use them. 1. NT4/W2K/XP/W2Kw/SP3 do _not_ entirely have them: The NT (and successor) security model is notoriously porous, with excessive privilege available far too easily to processes. Making separation of privilege actually _usable_ was primitive for a long time. (The "Run As" context menu option is new.) Full system privilege is needed way more extensively than it should be. In light of which, it's no wonder that people develop bad habits and need to be weaned from them. 2. As illustrated in the MUA example, the culture and architecture _on Unix_ effectively give naive users a default barrier against shooting themselves in the foot that they _can_ override, but only through willful disabling that _should_ put people of modest intelligence on notice of doing something reckless. 3. There's no reason why truly naive users (at least, in a company or institutional context) need to have root access on their machines in the first place. That's what sysadmins are for. Heh. Some of the above is in those Web essays. Generally speaking, I write those things to _avoid_ having to revisit the same points any more. -- May those that love us love us; and those that don't love us, may God turn their hearts; and if he doesn't turn their hearts, may he turn their ankles so we'll know them by their limping. From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Sep 11 01:08:25 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19xMV7-0007PM-00 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 01:08:25 -0700 Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 01:08:25 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] linux antivirus? Message-ID: <20030911080825.GO10351@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030521091559.GF29924@linuxmafia.com> <20030911040631.GJ10351@linuxmafia.com> <3F600762.5020600@thievco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3F600762.5020600@thievco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 08:08:25 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2143 Lines: 47 Oops! I forgot lpdw0rm. Quoting Blue Boar (BlueBoar@thievco.com): > I've personally tracked (at peak) thousands of infected linux machines > for the three variants of lion and lpdw0rm. (FYI, dates cited for the 1i0n and lpdw0rm appearances refer to the _first_ versions of each, per my googling. That googling is not guaranteed infallible: I didn't exactly do a major research project on this stuff.) OK, we're talking about poorly maintained Red Hat boxes again; I can tell. How? Because this was a canned 'sploit in April 2001, targeted almost entirely at Red Hat 7.0 boxes still running a ridiculously long-vulnerable version of lprng. (lprng is a slightly revised version of the crufty old BSD lpr print daemon.) Now, I have a question for you: Why the _hell_ would anyone with an ounce of common sense _not only_ turn on a notoriously vulnerable, obsoletely designed[1] print daemon, but also leave it accessible from the global Internet? But wait, it gets better: The vulnerability that lpdw0rm exploited had been discovered in _October 2000_ or earlier. How do I know this? Because that's when RH released package LPRng-3.6.24-2 specifically to close it -- labelled as fixing "a critical string format bug". Therefore, anyone caught with his pants down by lpdw0rm (any variant) had been failing to install a blatantly needed and widely available security update for 5+ months -- to fix a hole that had been known for at least that long and possibly longer. So, I have just about zero sympathy. We're talking massive negligence, here. > Most of them get root by popping a root service, too. This is not exactly true: Didn't BIND8 and lprng run in those days as SUID-root monolithic binaries? Therefore, escalating to root wasn't required: The thing was already using root authority, and all you needed was something like a string-handling bug to subvert it remotely. -- Cheers, Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based, Rick Moen not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed, rick@linuxmafia.com modern-American-English-usage-improvement association. From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Sep 11 01:22:22 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19xMic-0007RD-00 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 01:22:22 -0700 Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 01:22:22 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] linux antivirus? Message-ID: <20030911082222.GP10351@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030521091559.GF29924@linuxmafia.com> <20030911040631.GJ10351@linuxmafia.com> <3F600762.5020600@thievco.com> <20030911080825.GO10351@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030911080825.GO10351@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 08:22:22 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1473 Lines: 31 Supplying the missing footnote: > Now, I have a question for you: Why the _hell_ would anyone with an > ounce of common sense _not only_ turn on a notoriously vulnerable, > obsoletely designed[1] print daemon.... [1] CUPS (Common Unix Print System) is the general-purpose standard-bearer that logically should be used on servers. This was already the case in April 2001. For workstations, a lot of people use CUPS there too, but I would say that pdq (Print, Don't Queue) would be a slightly better choice for lots of reasons: It's a much simpler piece of code, small, fast, which accordingly has much lower likelihood of security problems -- and zero chance of network vulnerabilities, since it's reachable only locally. As the name indicates, you have no local queuing, but you typically don't really want or need that on a local workstation, anyhow. Late addition: Since the last time I looked at the Linux Printing HOWTO (see below), it seems that pdq has become maintainerless (but so far has no unfixed problems). Mild bummer. The real expert on this matter, Grant Taylor, explains it much better than I ever could: http://www.linuxprinting.org/howto/ Especially: http://www.linuxprinting.org/howto/spoolers.html -- Cheers, Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based, Rick Moen not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed, rick@linuxmafia.com modern-American-English-usage-improvement association. From BlueBoar@thievco.com Thu Sep 11 18:30:26 2003 Received: from mtaw6.prodigy.net ([64.164.98.56]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19xclV-0005pK-00 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 18:30:26 -0700 Received: from thievco.com (adsl-64-167-139-58.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [64.167.139.58]) by mtaw6.prodigy.net (8.12.9/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h8C1TIZi023145 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 18:29:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F612176.9020708@thievco.com> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 18:29:26 -0700 From: Blue Boar User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4.1) Gecko/20030906 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] linux antivirus? References: <20030521091559.GF29924@linuxmafia.com> <20030911040631.GJ10351@linuxmafia.com> <3F600762.5020600@thievco.com> <20030911071644.GL10351@linuxmafia.com> In-Reply-To: <20030911071644.GL10351@linuxmafia.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.7.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 01:30:26 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 17946 Lines: 364 Rick Moen wrote: >Greetings, O Blue Boar, and welcome to CABAL. Thank you. Apologies for introducing myself by disagreeing with you. Sometimes it's things like that that prompt one to delurk. :) >>Why don't you discuss RST.A, RST.B, and OSF? Those are the most >>"successful" Linux viruses I've seen in the wild. > There's the verbosity problem, for starters. > > The only places in those four essays where I've discussed specific > pieces of Linux malware were (1) bliss (to make the point that Linux > viruses are nothing new) and the seven worms in > http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/#virus3 (to make the point that those > are not themselves problems, but rather an aftereffect of a larger > problem). I mean "why don't you discuss them, since they are the examples of 'successful' linux viruses in the wild" not "your linux virus list is incomplete." > Refreshing my memory of the ones you mention: Yes, they are just plain binary infectors, your classic virus (with backdoors too, but that's not particularly relevent here.) > Additionally to the above, I suspect that "successful" basically means > that a friend-of-a-friend once claimed that someone, somewhere, got > tricked in some very contrived set of circumstances, into running a > copy. There is a long history of claims propagated by the antivirus > industry of "Linux viruses in the wild" that turn out, upon examination, > to have been cooked-up scenarios in the "wild" corner of some antiviral > company's research lab. No, it means that I personally was in contact with a number of people who were infected in the wild, and at one point had access to the central control mechanism which gave me an idea of how many infected hosts there were. I also happened to have disassembled each so I have some idea how they work, and I got to help name OSF. I obtained copies of all three from people who fell for it, and got themselves infected. If you're curious, the bait was that they were attached to (in some cases apparant) 0-day exploits that required root to run. They would still infect your files if you didn't run them as root. So, at least some people who have at least a passing familiarity with security concepts got themselves infected by doing something risky. > > I mean who the _fsck_ would run such stuff, and do so as root? Maybe > some real moron gamer who hangs out on irc while running as root, gets > DCC'd some R4D K00L filez from another net.random, and like a blithering > idiot _runs them_? Yes, that's about right. > This is not exactly an accurate characterisation: What they do is run a > canned remote exploit against some notoriously vulnerable, obsolete > version of a (usually overfeatured) network daemon -- usually BIND8, > wu-ftpd, rpc.statd, or lpd. So what about that makes them not worms that spread between hosts? > They do _not_ first come into the system > and then grind away at escalating authority via the equivalent of > running the "crack" utility, or searching the system from inside for > vulnerable privileged libs, or such. So? Generally speaking, worms don't do that. (Off the top of my head, the Morris worm is the only one I know that acts like that.) > > Please note that I address that matter comprehensively in > http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/#virus3 . If I thought you had explained it there to my satisfaction, I wouldn't have asked. :) Seriously, you make the claim that worms don't spread between Linux hosts, then you define worm, and use examples of worms that spread between Linux hosts. Are we having a terminology problems? > 1i0n ("lion") would have been around early 2001, and was an exploit > against the security basket-case BIND8 codebase. BIND8 was well known > to be obsolete and untenable for future development, and so was being > limped along with patches as needed, until it could be abandoned. > The from-scratch rewrite, BIND9, was released around October 2000, so > I can understand admins still shying away from BIND9 versions in early > 2001, until it had a track record. _However_, what I cannot understand > is admining BIND8 at that extremely late date in its notoriously bad > product history and not be aware of the need to be on some relevant > security-alert mailing list and act accordingly. > > What I'm saying is that those thousands of Linux machines' sysadmins > were asleep at the wheel. They therefore had much bigger problems than > "worms" -- like ineptitude. The vulns those worms used were all between 6 and 12 months old at the time the worm was launched. Yes, the boxes were running unmanned.. that's the point. As you have more Linux boxes that are not admined properly, the more successful Linux malicious code will be. That's what enables Windows malicious code to spread, too. Bad administration. What's the difference? (I will grant you that there are _more_ options to run the bad program on Windows, but they are not non-existent on Linux, and many worms don't need that to begin with.) > > Aside: Unmaintained Red Hat boxes, right? Thought so. The majority of them, a few SuSe, too. > At the risk of reiterating the point in > http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/#virus4, where's that 1% Linux "virus" > traffic? It's not there. Not even 1%. Not .01%. Not .001%. Absent. > On the other hand, SoBig.F _tripled_ the volume of incoming SMTP on my > quite busy mail server. It hasn't gone down yet. I used to work at SecurityFocus, on the DeepSite (nee ARIS) project, which tracked network attacks world-wide. At peak, some Linux worms would account for 15% of the attack traffic for the day. Where do you think the LPR probes come from? 4, 2003-07-13 10:30:24, 2003022, TCP_Probe_Lpr, 211.5.211.26, dns1.jpframe.co.jp , 64.167.139.58, , port=515&reason=RSTsent, 1, B, 1425, 515, 0x148006 4, 2003-07-17 02:35:15, 2003022, TCP_Probe_Lpr, 211.22.200.245, DNS , 64.167.139.58, , port=515&reason=RSTsent, 2, B, 4786, 515, 0x148006 4, 2003-07-30 21:05:12, 2003022, TCP_Probe_Lpr, 218.104.22.142, , 64.167.139.58, , port=515&reason=RSTsent, 1, B, 1195, 515, 0x148006 4, 2003-08-07 23:16:26, 2003022, TCP_Probe_Lpr, 65.215.79.20, , 64.167.139.58, , port=515&reason=RSTsent, 1, B, 1718, 515, 0x148006 4, 2003-08-23 19:39:17, 2003022, TCP_Probe_Lpr, 64.167.139.59, holly, 64.167.139 .58, , port=515&reason=RSTsent, 2, B, 63471, 515, 0x148006 4, 2003-08-23 19:52:52, 2003022, TCP_Probe_Lpr, 64.167.139.59, holly, 64.167.139 .58, , port=515&reason=RSTsent, 1, B, 37242, 515, 0x148006 4, 2003-08-23 23:30:19, 2003022, TCP_Probe_Lpr, 64.167.139.59, holly, 64.167.139 .58, , port=515&reason=RSTsent, 1, B, 47198, 515, 0x148006 I still get 'em, it's around 1% of my attack traffic. Not all of those probes will be worms, but about half probably are. > No, it's not. If market dominance were even a minor factor, then there > would be _some_ ongoing blitz of Internet virus traffic specific to Linux > servers and Linux scientific workstations. But it's not there at all. You say there's not a "blitz".... do you mean to say there's not enough (implying perhaps that the Linux worm traffic is too low for the number of Linux hosts?) or do you mean to say that there is none at all. There certainly is some... if you've never seen it, you're not measuring right. >>Most of the people I know who use Linux as a desktop OS run as root.... > > I hope you warn them at all possible opportunities that they need to > shed the habit. I warn people when it's appropriate. Again, the point is that people do it, and more people will do it as there are more Linux users. In most situations, it's not a good idea, but it's not the people who have a clue that are infecting themselves anyway. > Whoops. I'm sorry, but that's being Darwin's client. It's something > people do who haven't yet figured out chmod, chgrp, the sgid bit, adding > yourself to necessary groups (but not those _not_ necessary), and > judicious use of sudo and "su -" (or "ssh -X root@localhost"). I have them figured out just fine, and for my desktop usage, they are not useful. I could go into the reasons why, but it's not particularly relevent. The point is, I do.. and so do tons of other people. In my case, I won't be infecting myself on accident, since I allow for no opportunity for malicious code to run unsupervised. (I will occasionally run some on a virtual machine in controlled conditions.) > Never mind being "infected", I thought we were talking about malicious code? > what about buggy software going haywire > with root or administrator authority? What about mistakenly moving some > entire directory of crucial files with a careless swip of your mouse? > Wielding maximum permissions all the time is foolish. In the ten years or so that I've been dealing with OSes that have permissions, I think I've shot myself in the foot twice.. and I might have needed to be root for what I was trying to do at the time, can't remember. It may or may not have saved me some trouble. Compared to the vast majority of the time that I need to have privs for what I'm doing, it's just not worth the time to switch back and forth. This is for my personal boxes, mind you. On actual multiusers boxes with multiple users, everyone is using a regular account and su. Before the OSes with privs, I ran OSes without, so it didn't come up. :) > Not really. Consider the MUA matter. We have 115 of them now > (http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/muas.html), including a > number that successfully cater to the traditional "desktop" crowd > (Evolution, KMail, Balsa, Sylpheed). On every single one of the 115, > what happens if you mail them executable attachments? Do they autorun > them on your behalf? Nope. Depends what you mean by "autorun". None of the Windows MUAs run attachments without your help, or without taking advantage of a bug. Or, if you count bugs, every MUA has them, some of them are good for running code on the client. Or, if you want to consider rendering HTML, doing something with PGP, etc... then yes, some Linux MUAs do "autorun". Are there no Linux MUAs that allow users to launch attachments if they choose? Do you think the bad users will not require such feature when they switch to Linux? You think MS is just creating these features for the extra risk, and no one actually wants or uses them? > The point is that the security model is deeply ingrained in both the > software architecture and the culture. It can be sabotaged, but hardly > anyone can do so completely unconsciously. So... you think that users get smarter when they switch to Linux? (To be fair, the current set are probably much better informed about computer stuff, but you know that's not the set I'm talking about. The ones we have now are largely self-selected, and had to install it themselves.) You think that the open-source developers are going to refuse to write the stupid features that the bad users want? > (Can you tell me with a straight face that you had not the least notion > that it's considered reckless to do everything as root, and that you > aren't ignoring such advice quite deliberately? A few people might be > able to honestly do so -- _if_ they've completely ignored all > documentation and glued their eyes and ears shut.) I mention it two illustrate two points: Some people (with clue) don't need any help keeping themselves free from infection, no matter what privs they run with. No, they don't need any anti-virus software (I couldn't use it if I wanted, it starts trying to eat my collection!); some people run with all the privs, whether it's a good idea or not. If the person doing so also has no clue, then they will be shooting themselves in the foot much more often. > 1. NT4/W2K/XP/W2Kw/SP3 do _not_ entirely have them: The NT (and > successor) security model is notoriously porous, with excessive > privilege available far too easily to processes. Making separation of > privilege actually _usable_ was primitive for a long time. (The > "Run As" context menu option is new.) Full system privilege is needed > way more extensively than it should be. What does that have to do with anything in the context of regular users and malicious code? It's not like a user in just the everyone group is going to accidentally find themselves with admin rights moments before they click on hotsex.exe. If your claim is true (and I don't neccessarily care to refute it) then that means it's easier to use an exploit to get privs, is all. Sure, a virus can do that, could do so on Linux too. Lots of local exploits to be had there. Again, the point is that the feature is there, bad users don't use it. If they were to run Linux, they would do the same. Oh, and don't forget that malicious code doesn't neccessarily need to be root. A worm running as "nobody" will spread just the same. > 2. As illustrated in the MUA example, the culture and architecture > _on Unix_ effectively give naive users a default barrier against > shooting themselves in the foot that they _can_ override, but only > through willful disabling that _should_ put people of modest > intelligence on notice of doing something reckless. On Win2K, who gave all the corporate users admin privs on their own box? The IT department. Why? They needed admin to do some small portion of their job. So, rather than educate the users, or make them live with it, etc... they all get admin. Have the IT department roll out desktop Linux. What do you think will happen? > 3. There's no reason why truly naive users (at least, in a company or > institutional context) need to have root access on their machines in the > first place. That's what sysadmins are for. So Joe salesguy takes his Linux laptop to a client site, and plugs into their network. Doesn't work, he needs to change the network config. So, he just calls his sysadmin to log in remotely... umm... he calls him and asks for the root password... He has the client IT guy boot from CD, and change the root password to something the salesguy now knows? Or maybe he's at a conference, and he needs to use his laptop to run a spiffypointix presentation... which isn't installed. That's OK, we can download it.. oh, it runs in frame buffer mode, need root... Or every mom on her home machine needs to run up2date to grab the latest kernel because it's got a remote hole and there's a worm out... (If you can tell me how to upgrade my kernel without full privs, I'll be impressed.) You see my point? When/if Linux is the default home desktop, everyone is their own sysadmin. Whether they are qualified or not. > Heh. Some of the above is in those Web essays. Generally speaking, I > write those things to _avoid_ having to revisit the same points any > more. I've read them. If I thought the points I asked about were little more than "it is because I say it is", I wouldn't have challenged those particular ones. However, now that you've taken the time to elaborate on some of your points, I think I have a better understanding of your position. -You think that none of the Linux viruses have survived/spread in the wild. -You think that Linux users run with privs A Whole Lot Less Often. -You think that Linux MUAs make it harder to run attachments. -You think that few Linux network services run as root. -You think that for malicious code to be effective on Linux, it must get root. -You think that Linux worms have not been effective/compromised many hosts. -You think that malicious code authors do not (primarily) target platforms based on popularity. -You think that the general diversity of Linux will help with the malicious code problem. -Finally, you think all of the above would still hold true even if Linux had 100 times as many users, and filled all the roles that Windows does now. You think all the malicious code authors will give up because Linux is too hard. Please take those as questions, not me trying to put words in your mouth. Please point out where I've misinterpreted your stance (and try to ignore any sarcasm I've slipped in.) So, back to the original question (does Linux need AV?) that was asked, and my opinion on the subject: No, right now, Linux does not need AV to protect itself. By all means use a Linux AV package that is designed to help the Windows files going by. Linux does not need it now because: 1) there is not enough Linux malicious code yet to warrant it, 2) the current user base (for the most part) ain't falling for no bananna in the tailpipe. This may change in the future. If Linux ever becomes popular enough that the majority of the Vx authors write Linux code AND you've moved all your non-tehcnical users onto Linux desktops, then you'll probably want some Linux AV to protect them from themselves. This presumes, of course, that you think AV software is useful at all for those same users running Windows right now. Assertions that I use to support my position: -Malicious code authors primarily target the most popular platform. -Linux viruses & worms have already been spreading to a degree. -Holes exist on various bits of Linux software that will help enable malicious code to spread -In general, Linux users/admins are nearly as bad as Windows users about not patching. -Features exist or will exists in MUAs to allow Users Who Want To Do Bad Things to do Bad Things. -Clueless Linux users run with Too High Privs. -Clueless Linux users will run mystery binaries just as much as cluess Windows users. -Linux viruses and worms don't neccessarily need root to do their thing. -Clueful Windows users don't need AV either, they're not the problem. It's clueless users, platform independent, that help malicious code spread. So, any arguments based around "but the user would have to be stupid to..." doesn't help your position in my mind. BB From BlueBoar@thievco.com Thu Sep 11 18:38:46 2003 Received: from mtaw6.prodigy.net ([64.164.98.56]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19xcta-0005xv-00; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 18:38:46 -0700 Received: from thievco.com (adsl-64-167-139-58.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [64.167.139.58]) by mtaw6.prodigy.net (8.12.9/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h8C1beZi028749; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 18:37:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F61236D.7020302@thievco.com> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 18:37:49 -0700 From: Blue Boar User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4.1) Gecko/20030906 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rick Moen Subject: Re: [conspire] linux antivirus? References: <20030521091559.GF29924@linuxmafia.com> <20030911040631.GJ10351@linuxmafia.com> <3F600762.5020600@thievco.com> <20030911080825.GO10351@linuxmafia.com> In-Reply-To: <20030911080825.GO10351@linuxmafia.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.7.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 01:38:47 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2963 Lines: 66 Rick Moen wrote: > (FYI, dates cited for the 1i0n and lpdw0rm appearances refer to the > _first_ versions of each, per my googling. That googling is not > guaranteed infallible: I didn't exactly do a major research project on > this stuff.) > > OK, we're talking about poorly maintained Red Hat boxes again; I can > tell. How? Because this was a canned 'sploit in April 2001, targeted > almost entirely at Red Hat 7.0 boxes still running a ridiculously > long-vulnerable version of lprng. (lprng is a slightly revised version > of the crufty old BSD lpr print daemon.) Those were both Red Hat-specific, in that the flavors of shellcode used would only work on Red Hat. (If memory servers at all, the vuln affected a couple of other distros, too.) > Now, I have a question for you: Why the _hell_ would anyone with an > ounce of common sense _not only_ turn on a notoriously vulnerable, > obsoletely designed[1] print daemon, but also leave it accessible from > the global Internet? I can think of three answers: 1) That's the way it installed out of the box, 2) Obviously, they had no common sense, 3) What does it matter? It demonstrates my point that, yes, dumb Linux users/admins do exist. > > But wait, it gets better: The vulnerability that lpdw0rm exploited had > been discovered in _October 2000_ or earlier. How do I know this? > Because that's when RH released package LPRng-3.6.24-2 specifically to > close it -- labelled as fixing "a critical string format bug". > Therefore, anyone caught with his pants down by lpdw0rm (any variant) > had been failing to install a blatantly needed and widely available > security update for 5+ months -- to fix a hole that had been known for > at least that long and possibly longer. Longer, I think I counted 6 months at the time. So why didn't they patch them? Could it be that, yes, some set of Linux users will exhibit behaviour that helps out the Linux malicious code? > So, I have just about zero sympathy. We're talking massive negligence, > here. That question was not whether they deserve sympathy, it's whether an enviornment that supports a nice, healty collection of malicious code can exist on the Linux platform. At least, that's the question I've been tryin to ask... if you've been answering "will deserving Linux users get infected", then I see my mistake. >>Most of them get root by popping a root service, too. > This is not exactly true: Didn't BIND8 and lprng run in those days as > SUID-root monolithic binaries? Therefore, escalating to root wasn't > required: The thing was already using root authority, and all you > needed was something like a string-handling bug to subvert it remotely. Yes, that would be my definition of "root service", a network service running as root...So the shellcode was running as root. Sorry if my terminology wasn't clear. So, uh... we're you trying to support your position on the subject, or mine? :) BB From BlueBoar@thievco.com Thu Sep 11 18:42:20 2003 Received: from mtaw6.prodigy.net ([64.164.98.56]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19xcx2-00063b-00 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 18:42:20 -0700 Received: from thievco.com (adsl-64-167-139-58.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [64.167.139.58]) by mtaw6.prodigy.net (8.12.9/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h8C1fDZi001305 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 18:41:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F612442.2040303@thievco.com> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 18:41:22 -0700 From: Blue Boar User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4.1) Gecko/20030906 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] linux antivirus? References: <20030521091559.GF29924@linuxmafia.com> <20030911040631.GJ10351@linuxmafia.com> <3F600762.5020600@thievco.com> <20030911080825.GO10351@linuxmafia.com> <20030911082222.GP10351@linuxmafia.com> In-Reply-To: <20030911082222.GP10351@linuxmafia.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.7.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 01:42:21 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 594 Lines: 16 Rick Moen wrote: > [1] CUPS (Common Unix Print System) is the general-purpose > standard-bearer that logically should be used on servers. This was > already the case in April 2001. I hope no one thinks that I'm trying to support the position that the owners of those Red Hat 7.x boxes that were running LPR-whatever were somehow doing the right thing. Obviously, there are many things they SHOULD have done differently. I'm just trying to point out that they DID something stupid, so therefore sometimes Linux users DO stupid things, and these sometimes DO enable worms. BB From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Sep 11 19:12:26 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19xdQA-0006lv-00 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 19:12:26 -0700 Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 19:12:26 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] linux antivirus? Message-ID: <20030912021225.GZ10351@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030521091559.GF29924@linuxmafia.com> <20030911040631.GJ10351@linuxmafia.com> <3F600762.5020600@thievco.com> <20030911080825.GO10351@linuxmafia.com> <20030911082222.GP10351@linuxmafia.com> <3F612442.2040303@thievco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3F612442.2040303@thievco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Rick Moen X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 02:12:26 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1447 Lines: 29 Quoting Blue Boar (BlueBoar@thievco.com): > I hope no one thinks that I'm trying to support the position that the > owners of those Red Hat 7.x boxes that were running LPR-whatever were > somehow doing the right thing. Obviously, there are many things they > SHOULD have done differently. I'm just trying to point out that they DID > something stupid, so therefore sometimes Linux users DO stupid things, and > these sometimes DO enable worms. That's missing the point. The "worm" in both those cases merely -=automated=- a non-automated remote attacker's easy misappropriation of system root access (a vulnerability that in I believe both cases had been left wide open for five-plus months). To paraphrase one of my essays, calling it "enabling worms" is like saying a homeowner "enabled arson" after he left his home wide open and unoccupied for six months, then burglars finally noticed the house, stole its valuables, and finally torched the place. The "worms" are just a minor aftereffect of a far more basic underlying problem. It's like saying when an airliner's engines fall off and two minutes later it augers into the ground that that model's fuselage had a ground-impact problem. -- Cheers, Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based, Rick Moen not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed, rick@linuxmafia.com modern-American-English-usage-improvement association. From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Sep 11 19:37:36 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19xdoT-0007Cv-00 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 19:37:33 -0700 Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 19:37:32 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] linux antivirus? Message-ID: <20030912023732.GA10351@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030521091559.GF29924@linuxmafia.com> <20030911040631.GJ10351@linuxmafia.com> <3F600762.5020600@thievco.com> <20030911080825.GO10351@linuxmafia.com> <3F61236D.7020302@thievco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3F61236D.7020302@thievco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 02:37:36 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2575 Lines: 61 Quoting Blue Boar (BlueBoar@thievco.com): > I can think of three answers: 1) That's the way it installed out of the > box, And then you turn it off. Or add a line to /etc/hosts.deny. > It demonstrates my point that, yes, dumb Linux users/admins do exist. Let's be really clear about this: If you run a bunch of network daemons, leave them exposed to the Internet, and ignore security advisories and urgently recommended updates for five-plus months, your system _will_ get root-compromised. But: The most-important point: This would happen with or without the existence of malware. Remember, the "worms" you wrote about were merely ways of 'sploiting larger numbers of netblocks more quickly. > So why didn't they patch them? Irrelevant. The point is that they basically nullified their own system security. Calling that a malware problem is missing the point. Please note that Red Hat, Inc., with its complimentary one-machine subscription to RHN, has of late made it extremely difficult for even grossly incompetent admins to screw up that way. Now, it's difficult to _avoid_ getting security updates. (That's not to mention the default netfilter script introduced after RH 7.3.) > Could it be that, yes, some set of Linux users will exhibit > behaviour that helps out the Linux malicious code? See above: Their failure to protect their own asses helped _exploits_ against their machines, in the same way that leaving all your doors and windows open with jerrycans of gasoline piled against your doorstep would help arsonists. Those exploits were a dead-certainty with or without the malware. The latter was merely _automation_ of the 'sploits. The malware thus added nothing to the situation other than causing system compromise to happen a bit sooner than otherwise. > That question was not whether they deserve sympathy, it's whether an > enviornment that supports a nice, healty collection of malicious code can > exist on the Linux platform. 1. Although you're changing the subject from what I was saying, that's OK. 2. See above: Nope, it's not. G > Yes, that would be my definition of "root service", a network service > running as root...So the shellcode was running as root. Sorry if my > terminology wasn't clear. That's not "popping a root service" in any meaningful sense: That's just a garden-variety buffer overflow without privilege escalation. Not clever, not surprising -- and nothing really to do with malware. -- Cheers, Rick Moen This space for rant. rick@linuxmafia.com From BlueBoar@thievco.com Thu Sep 11 19:41:07 2003 Received: from mtaw6.prodigy.net ([64.164.98.56]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19xdrt-0007OF-00 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 19:41:06 -0700 Received: from thievco.com (adsl-64-167-139-58.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [64.167.139.58]) by mtaw6.prodigy.net (8.12.9/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h8C2dwZi003468 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 19:39:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F613207.1010809@thievco.com> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 19:40:07 -0700 From: Blue Boar User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4.1) Gecko/20030906 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] linux antivirus? References: <20030521091559.GF29924@linuxmafia.com> <20030911040631.GJ10351@linuxmafia.com> <3F600762.5020600@thievco.com> <20030911080825.GO10351@linuxmafia.com> <20030911082222.GP10351@linuxmafia.com> <3F612442.2040303@thievco.com> <20030912021225.GZ10351@linuxmafia.com> In-Reply-To: <20030912021225.GZ10351@linuxmafia.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.7.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 02:41:07 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1260 Lines: 28 Rick Moen wrote: > That's missing the point. The "worm" in both those cases merely > -=automated=- a non-automated remote attacker's easy misappropriation of > system root access (a vulnerability that in I believe both cases had > been left wide open for five-plus months). That's what worms do, that's what worms are. Does your definition of worm vary from mine, somehow? One can create a worm that is more subtle and does things like try to guess and crack password, and exploit established trust relationships (again, Morris) but who cares? That flavor, for all intents and purposes, is obsolete. It's not the type people are concerned about at present, and it makes the kind that use exploits no less wormy. > To paraphrase one of my essays, calling it "enabling worms" is like > saying a homeowner "enabled arson" after he left his home wide open and > unoccupied for six months, then burglars finally noticed the house, > stole its valuables, and finally torched the place. The "worms" are > just a minor aftereffect of a far more basic underlying problem. It's like leaving your Windows/IIS box unpatched for weeks, and then a worms exploits it and spreads. I'm really not grasping this distinction you're trying to make. BB From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Sep 11 20:10:57 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19xeKn-00088P-00 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 20:10:57 -0700 Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 20:10:57 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] linux antivirus? Message-ID: <20030912031057.GB10351@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030521091559.GF29924@linuxmafia.com> <20030911040631.GJ10351@linuxmafia.com> <3F600762.5020600@thievco.com> <20030911071644.GL10351@linuxmafia.com> <3F612176.9020708@thievco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3F612176.9020708@thievco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Rick Moen X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 03:10:58 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 4608 Lines: 114 Quoting Blue Boar (BlueBoar@thievco.com): > Thank you. Apologies for introducing myself by disagreeing with you. Disagreeing is your absolute right, and not the least offensive, let me reassure you! > I mean "why don't you discuss them, since they are the examples of > 'successful' linux viruses in the wild" not "your linux virus list is > incomplete." 1. They are not in the wild. 2. They are not successful. 3. And there's also that verbosity problem. > No, it means that I personally was in contact with a number of people who > were infected in the wild [....] If you're curious, the bait was that > they were attached to (in some cases apparant) 0-day exploits that > required root to run. To re-post the Moen Family Antivirus regimen: 1. Don't run untrustworthy software. <=== 2. Don't run software that autoruns untrustworthy software on your behalf. 3. Have recovery plans for when sundry mishaps happen. ASCII arrow indicates the place those people (very obviously) shot themselves in the foot with a rocket-propelled grenade. I mean, c'mon: Running code from anonymous WAR3Z D00DZ? With root authority? Please. Be serious. > They would still infect your files if you didn't run them as root. More precisely, they would infect the UID's files. Obviously, before you'd be so extravagantly reckless as to run such code, you would either set up a sacrificial system or at the bare minimum a quarantine user login to run it under. > So what about that makes them not worms that spread between hosts? 1. On a statistical basis, they don't, and never did. I analyse my Linux Internet server logfiles on an ongoing basis, and have for the past ten years. Ramen, 1i0n, Red Worm, Adore, Cheese, lpdw0rm, and Slapper, even a month after release in each case, were almost completely unfindable. (A harmless curiosity, too, but that's not the point.) 2. Here, I'll set up a "Linux worm that spreads between hosts": It'll be an i386 ELF binary that I mail out to random people with an e-mail saying "Please run the attached binary as root." A non-negative integer number of people will do so on i386 Linux boxen, and it will carry out its sole function, which is to mail itself out to random people with an e-mail saying "Please run the attached binary as root." Now, you would say that's a stupid example because it requires the user to do stupid things. Oddly enough, I would say exactly the same thing about your examples. > So? Generally speaking, worms don't do that. So they do not "take over (infect) the local machine" in the sense you quoted from my essay. They act remotely. You stated that this is a counterexample to what you quoted from my essay. No, it is not. > >Please note that I address that matter comprehensively in > >http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/#virus3 . > > If I thought you had explained it there to my satisfaction, I wouldn't have > asked. :) Whoops! I'm sorry, but this conversation will rapidly come to an end, after this. You've just said the magic words: You've stated that you don't understand something I've FAQed, and want to argue about it. Sorry, that signals the end of the conversation. Right about here: OK, son, let's cut the crap. I'm short of time, and you -- Mr. Runs-Everything-With-Root-Authority-And-Talks-About-Viruses-In-Zero- Day-Sploits -- are wasting it. > Depends what you mean by "autorun". No reasonable person would call the bullshit you posted following that "autorunning". > Are there no Linux MUAs that allow users to launch attachments if they > choose? Go find one, sonny. I've looked at a very large percentage of the 115, but I'm not fscking well going to do your homework for you. > So... you think that users get smarter when they switch to Linux? I have a better question: Are you going to try to understand what I actually wrote? And so on. Sorry, I have no time for this crap, and am shitcanning it. And you've just pissed me off to the point that I am going to don my hat as listadmin for a moment: "Blue Boar", you're going to have to resubscribe with something that appears to be a real name. And no, I'm fscking well not going to define what a real name is, nor am I imposing this as an overall list policy. This is just for you. Enjo, nor am I imposing this as an overall list policy. This is just for you. Enjoy! -- Cheers, Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based, Rick Moen not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed, rick@linuxmafia.com modern-American-English-usage-improvement association. From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Sep 11 20:12:49 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19xeMb-00089M-00 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 20:12:49 -0700 Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 20:12:49 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] linux antivirus? Message-ID: <20030912031249.GC10351@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030521091559.GF29924@linuxmafia.com> <20030911040631.GJ10351@linuxmafia.com> <3F600762.5020600@thievco.com> <20030911080825.GO10351@linuxmafia.com> <20030911082222.GP10351@linuxmafia.com> <3F612442.2040303@thievco.com> <20030912021225.GZ10351@linuxmafia.com> <3F613207.1010809@thievco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3F613207.1010809@thievco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Rick Moen X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 03:12:50 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 371 Lines: 11 Quoting Blue Boar (BlueBoar@thievco.com): > I'm really not grasping this distinction you're trying to make. You got that right. -- Cheers, Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based, Rick Moen not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed, rick@linuxmafia.com modern-American-English-usage-improvement association. From ryan@thievco.com Thu Sep 11 20:20:29 2003 Received: from mtaw6.prodigy.net ([64.164.98.56]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19xeU1-0008Bg-00 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 20:20:29 -0700 Received: from thievco.com (adsl-64-167-139-58.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [64.167.139.58]) by mtaw6.prodigy.net (8.12.9/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h8C3JOZi001819 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 20:19:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F613B43.7070400@thievco.com> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 20:19:31 -0700 From: Ryan Russell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4.1) Gecko/20030906 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] linux antivirus? References: <20030521091559.GF29924@linuxmafia.com> <20030911040631.GJ10351@linuxmafia.com> <3F600762.5020600@thievco.com> <20030911080825.GO10351@linuxmafia.com> <3F61236D.7020302@thievco.com> <20030912023732.GA10351@linuxmafia.com> In-Reply-To: <20030912023732.GA10351@linuxmafia.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.7.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 20:22:24 -0700 X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 03:20:29 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 5927 Lines: 122 Rick Moen wrote: > And then you turn it off. Or add a line to /etc/hosts.deny. Same with Windows users. They're not using RPCDCOM, just turn it off. Why didn't they? They didn't know, they didn't care. How is it different? Oh look, they all got nailed, and it's STILL not off. It's just patched... and whoops, there's like 4 new vulnerabilities in it as of yesterday. Guess they never learn. >>It demonstrates my point that, yes, dumb Linux users/admins do exist. > Let's be really clear about this: If you run a bunch of network > daemons, leave them exposed to the Internet, and ignore security > advisories and urgently recommended updates for five-plus months, your > system _will_ get root-compromised. But: We agree then, it will be compromised. Do you agree that people really, truly do that? They really leaves boxes unpatched for that long? And that when they get compromised, maybe it was a worm that did it? > The most-important point: This would happen with or without the > existence of malware. Remember, the "worms" you wrote about were merely > ways of 'sploiting larger numbers of netblocks more quickly. So what? The Windows boxes would get compromised the same way, how is this different? Did, in fact, the malicious code get on using an exploit? >>So why didn't they patch them? > Irrelevant. The point is that they basically nullified their own system > security. Yes, that's the point I'm making... clueless users nullify their own security. You agree then? it doesn't matter whether they nullify their own security because of failing to patch, or running as root, or clicking on the dancing pig program? The basic problem is that there's a clueless user at the helm, so they will get compromised? > Calling that a malware problem is missing the point. Ah, now we're getting somewhere. Yes, that overall problem is a SUPERSET of problems, which includes getting infected with malicious code. Agree? You screw up your box admin, one of the things you will end up with is worms? (Minus that few that had the good fortune to have someone else move in and start administering the box, fo course.) So, I agree that it's not JUST and malicious code problem. I do, however, claim that this situation is one that will also enable/help/allow malicious code. > > Please note that Red Hat, Inc., with its complimentary one-machine > subscription to RHN, has of late made it extremely difficult for even > grossly incompetent admins to screw up that way. Now, it's difficult to > _avoid_ getting security updates. (That's not to mention the default > netfilter script introduced after RH 7.3.) And the world will build better idiots. (Incidentally, I'm a fan of up2date, I just wish it were a bit more free... can't fault them, though. Must be expensive to maintain the infrastructure.) Give them all the tools you want, and some people will still manage to ignore them. Up2date is very much on par with windowsupdate.microsoft.com, yet MILLIONS of Windows users can't be bothered to visit a web page, or install the reminder tool. All they have to do is click "yes" about twice... they can't be bothered. > See above: Their failure to protect their own asses helped _exploits_ So do you agree that they failed, and that they got exploited? > against their machines, in the same way that leaving all your doors and > windows open with jerrycans of gasoline piled against your doorstep > would help arsonists. Those exploits were a dead-certainty with or > without the malware. The latter was merely _automation_ of the 'sploits. Sure. And did they actually end up with malicious code on their boxes? > > The malware thus added nothing to the situation other than causing > system compromise to happen a bit sooner than otherwise. Or at all. Or in addition to. Could the worm have gotten on if the hole wasn't there? The reality is that you can have a hole exist for months, and some small portion of the boxes will get owned. Then a worm with the same exploit comes along, and all those boxes (unless someone took care to disable the hole) have the worm, plus a huge number of other boxes. Example: rpcdcom hole. Exploits abounded for a couple weeks, and probably thousands of boxes were 0wned. The worm (Blaster) comes out, and hundreds of thousands of boxes are now infected. You can also call that 0wned, or not, doesn't matter. They've got worm, though. >>Yes, that would be my definition of "root service", a network service >>running as root...So the shellcode was running as root. Sorry if my >>terminology wasn't clear. > That's not "popping a root service" in any meaningful sense: That's > just a garden-variety buffer overflow without privilege escalation. Not > clever, not surprising -- and nothing really to do with malware. "Popping a root service" (colloquially) is defined in all the circles I run in as exploiting a process running as root in order to perform some unintended action with root privileges. If you don't like that definition, that's your perogative. It may or may not have been done with a buffer overflow. You can call it a priv escalation or not; many of the people I know consider it to be escalating from nopriv/noshell (generic outside unauthenticated network user) to root user with a shell (assuming your "shellcode" does, in fact, give you a shell.) It has everything to do with malicious code, because that's how the worm gets on the box. Certainly you can't sanely argue against the fact that the vast majority of worms exploit a vulnerability in a remote privileged service in order to copy themselves onto a victim and execute. If you don't agree with that, then you've got a vastly different meaning for "worm" than all the rest of us. Please share. What do you call the thing I describe? I'm starting to wonder if you're being intentionally obscure with your definitions. BB From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Sep 11 20:27:33 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19xear-00008w-00 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 20:27:33 -0700 Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 20:27:33 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] linux antivirus? Message-ID: <20030912032733.GD10351@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030521091559.GF29924@linuxmafia.com> <20030911040631.GJ10351@linuxmafia.com> <3F600762.5020600@thievco.com> <20030911080825.GO10351@linuxmafia.com> <3F61236D.7020302@thievco.com> <20030912023732.GA10351@linuxmafia.com> <3F613B43.7070400@thievco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3F613B43.7070400@thievco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Rick Moen X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 03:27:34 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 735 Lines: 18 Quoting Ryan Russell (ryan@thievco.com): [stuff] That's better. And yes, I see you used to have a public presence and persona as a security mailing list moderator, as Blue Boar. I still have no time for this right now, though. And you _were_ posting a lot of crap (among more reasonable stuff) that was gratuitously wasting my time. I don't appreciate that. So, you're welcome to argue with other people until you get sick of it, but I have other things that need doing at the moment. -- Cheers, Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based, Rick Moen not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed, rick@linuxmafia.com modern-American-English-usage-improvement association. From ryan@thievco.com Thu Sep 11 20:55:56 2003 Received: from mtaw6.prodigy.net ([64.164.98.56]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19xf2K-0000no-00 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 20:55:56 -0700 Received: from thievco.com (adsl-64-167-139-58.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [64.167.139.58]) by mtaw6.prodigy.net (8.12.9/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h8C3spZi022475 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 20:54:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F614392.6090406@thievco.com> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 20:54:58 -0700 From: Ryan Russell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4.1) Gecko/20030906 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] linux antivirus? References: <20030521091559.GF29924@linuxmafia.com> <20030911040631.GJ10351@linuxmafia.com> <3F600762.5020600@thievco.com> <20030911071644.GL10351@linuxmafia.com> <3F612176.9020708@thievco.com> <20030912031057.GB10351@linuxmafia.com> In-Reply-To: <20030912031057.GB10351@linuxmafia.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.7.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 03:55:57 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 5402 Lines: 126 Well, I'll give it a shot with your new rules, though my expectations at this point are not high. Rick Moen wrote: > 1. They are not in the wild. I have evidence to the contrary. You don't have to believe it, obviously. I might submit that it's considerably more reasonable for me to point to some affirmative cases than it is for one to claim that the entire set of Linux users "in the wild" have had exactly 0 infections. > 2. They are not successful. You can choose a number to define "success", I've only got evidence of a few dozen, so I've no way to meet your criteria. > 3. And there's also that verbosity problem. Fair enough. I was kinda suggesting that those might be better examples than others. You continue to post ways for smart people to protect themsselves, while I continue to ask if you don't really think stupid people will fall for it. Highly unproductive. >>So what about that makes them not worms that spread between hosts? > > > 1. On a statistical basis, they don't, and never did. I analyse my > Linux Internet server logfiles on an ongoing basis, and have for the > past ten years. Ramen, 1i0n, Red Worm, Adore, Cheese, lpdw0rm, and > Slapper, even a month after release in each case, were almost completely > unfindable. (A harmless curiosity, too, but that's not the point.) Meaning they didn't spread "enough" to... > So they do not "take over (infect) the local machine" in the sense you > quoted from my essay. They act remotely. Ah. So when a worm is running on the box, using CPU, network, memory, etc... you don't want to use the work "infected". Fair enough. > You stated that this is a counterexample to what you quoted from my > essay. No, it is not. If you don't want to call that "infected", then no it's not. >>If I thought you had explained it there to my satisfaction, I wouldn't have >>asked. :) > Whoops! > > I'm sorry, but this conversation will rapidly come to an end, after > this. You've just said the magic words: You've stated that you don't > understand something I've FAQed, and want to argue about it. Sorry, > that signals the end of the conversation. Right about here: I was trying to be polite. I was trying to be nice, and not come out and say "I think you're wrong, and I'm going to challenge you on it, and cite specific information about which I have personal knowledge, and see if you're willing to tell me what leads you to the conclusions you seem to offer as fact." I thought it would be rude of me as a newbie on the list to be so bluntly confrontational, and of course I blew it, and ended up there anyway. I'm at fault for not just laying it out there, and leading you to believe that I'm not capable of reading or comprehending what you've written. > > > OK, son, let's cut the crap. I'm short of time, and you -- Mr. > Runs-Everything-With-Root-Authority-And-Talks-About-Viruses-In-Zero- > Day-Sploits -- are wasting it. Ouch. Response to the tone below. > No reasonable person would call the bullshit you posted following that > "autorunning". Then the Windows MUAs don't autorun anything, either. >>So... you think that users get smarter when they switch to Linux? > I have a better question: Are you going to try to understand what I > actually wrote? Sorry... was a latch ditch effort to tease out information from you when you had apparantly reached the point where you wanted to pretend that words don't mean what the rest of us think they do. Again, my bad for remaining sickly polite. > > And so on. Sorry, I have no time for this crap, and am shitcanning it. > > > And you've just pissed me off to the point that I am going to don my hat > as listadmin for a moment: "Blue Boar", you're going to have to > resubscribe with something that appears to be a real name. And no, I'm > fscking well not going to define what a real name is, nor am I imposing > this as an overall list policy. This is just for you. Enjo, nor am I > imposing this as an overall list policy. This is just for you. Enjoy! Wow. OK, as someone who is often unwilling to take a hint, this is plenty clear, thanks. I can sometimes be stubborn, and should have realized that I ought to have given up on a conversation with you on this subject a few notes ago. I'll finish with this note, shall I? Thanks for taking the time that you did to answer my questions about your opinions on the subject, which believe it or not were sincere. I took it up with you because you're the one making the statements, and you were the only one replying. Sadly, I still don't see exactly how you arrive at your opinions. The conclusions are certainly clear, I was after the steps leading up to them. As requested, here's a different email address. This one happens to be my legal name. Blue Boar is not any sort of attempt to hide my identity, plenty of people know who it is... it's simply been my default mail address for a number of years. Since we've reached the "your name is funny lookin; I'm going to take my list and go home" stage, I shall return to lurking, if permitted. Again, I'm sorry to have wasted your time, monopolized the list for the day, and to have been so rude as to repeatedly disagree with my host on his own list. I really had no intention of coming across as a troll. Ryan From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Sep 11 20:58:10 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19xf4U-0000om-00 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 20:58:10 -0700 Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 20:58:10 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] linux antivirus? Message-ID: <20030912035810.GH10351@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030521091559.GF29924@linuxmafia.com> <20030911040631.GJ10351@linuxmafia.com> <3F600762.5020600@thievco.com> <20030911071644.GL10351@linuxmafia.com> <3F612176.9020708@thievco.com> <20030912031057.GB10351@linuxmafia.com> <3F614392.6090406@thievco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3F614392.6090406@thievco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Rick Moen X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 03:58:11 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 516 Lines: 14 Quoting Ryan Russell (ryan@thievco.com): > Well, I'll give it a shot with your new rules, though my expectations at > this point are not high. "Rules", my great aunt. You know, you're perfectly free to fsck off. And I still, really, don't have any time for any of that. -- Cheers, Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based, Rick Moen not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed, rick@linuxmafia.com modern-American-English-usage-improvement association. From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Sep 11 21:36:38 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19xffi-0001XN-00; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 21:36:38 -0700 Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 21:36:37 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: Blue Boar Subject: Re: [conspire] linux antivirus? Message-ID: <20030912043637.GF10336@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030521091559.GF29924@linuxmafia.com> <20030911040631.GJ10351@linuxmafia.com> <3F600762.5020600@thievco.com> <20030911080825.GO10351@linuxmafia.com> <3F61236D.7020302@thievco.com> <20030912023732.GA10351@linuxmafia.com> <3F613B43.7070400@thievco.com> <20030912032733.GD10351@linuxmafia.com> <3F61467B.7030603@thievco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3F61467B.7030603@thievco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 04:36:38 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2793 Lines: 59 Mailing list added back. Quoting Blue Boar (BlueBoar@thievco.com): [Good, thoughtful comments snipped, not out of disrespect, but rather because I don't need to reply to them.] > Believe it or not, if you feel I was wasting your time, I feel bad about > that. I can see where the circular arguments look a lot like intentional > time wasting, I was getting it from your end, too. More likely unstated assumptions, miscommunication, and lack of time/patience to be as thorough as you'd (and probably that I would) like. Here's something you almost certainly wouldn't have thought of (not your fault), that bears on the matter: What invariably motivates me to write a "rant" essay for http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/ is being sick to death of a particular topic. The reason I post essays to there is so that I can thereafter provide a hyperlink rather than being dragged yet again through some swamp that I'm tired of visiting. There's a note near the top of the page that states that, in fact. The "rants" are an attempted distillation of my views: They don't even attempt to definitively cover all aspects of something with utmost objectivity for all time. Fuck that. These are _rants_. Thus the Dennis Miller quotation: The essays are there to amuse and to save me time. So, imagine my reaction when someone Just Doesn't Get that, and wants to not just tell me about places he thinks there are holes, blunders, and screw-ups, but actually wants to _argue_. At length. Moreover, imagine I see among his post what appears to be dumb gamesmanship and stuff that could not possibly be taken seriously by a reasonable person. I get annoyed. I think I usually have cause. And in this case I wasn't kidding or being metaphorical when I said I didn't have time. I don't: I'm trying to complete a couple of dozen things so I can leave for several days. When I said I didn't have time, I meant I didn't have time. That's not in any way to preclude your debating just about anything you want on the mailing list. Just not with me, not now. Because I don't have time. The fact that I'm (honestly) short on time as well as patience doesn't mean you aren't welcome. I go through lists of my claimed holes, blunders, and screw-ups at my leisure and, if feasible, see if I can defuse, address, or sidestep any I think are in-scope and significant. I usually do _not_, by contrast, volunteer to debate them, because that would defeat the purpose for which I created the rant in the first place. Anyhow, sorry to have been pissed off. -- Cheers, Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based, Rick Moen not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed, rick@linuxmafia.com modern-American-English-usage-improvement association. From rick@linuxmafia.com Fri Sep 12 11:00:51 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19xsDz-0002oD-00 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 11:00:51 -0700 Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 11:00:51 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20030912180051.GK10351@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] No CABAL meeting, tomorrow (Sat, Sep. 13) X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 18:00:51 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 390 Lines: 7 Because Deirdre and I will be out of town, we're not going to be able to have the scheduled CABAL meeting. (I've updated BALE and the CABAL Web page to reflect this.) Sorry for not having that information on out in public sooner, but I had some late-running logistics arrangements to determine whether I'll be staying or going with Deirdre, so I honestly didn't know until this morning. From ry@netgate.net Fri Sep 12 12:40:15 2003 Received: from ds.netgate.net ([205.214.170.232]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19xtmA-00051r-00 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 12:40:15 -0700 Received: (qmail 16595 invoked from network); 12 Sep 2003 19:29:37 -0000 Received: from pm3-68.netgate.net (HELO masterbedroom) (205.214.163.68) by ds.netgate.net with SMTP; 12 Sep 2003 19:29:37 -0000 Message-ID: <047001c37965$8beb7e70$0100a8c0@masterbedroom> From: "Rick & Renee Young" To: Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 12:38:43 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_046D_01C3792A.CCEE9140" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Cc: Rick & Renee Young Subject: [conspire] Java and Linux/Unix Classes meeting tomarrow (Saturday) X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 19:40:15 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 16236 Lines: 373 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_046D_01C3792A.CCEE9140 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi. Santa Clara Adult Education has many "High Tech" (professional level) = classes including Linux, Software Programming, Software Testing, and = Networking. The "Programming in Java" and "U N I X (Linux and Sun Solaris)" may be = of interest to Linux users. Both classes meet tomorrow (Saturday. Sept. 13, 2003) in the morning = (9:30 - 12:30 AM) in different locations (Java in Sunnyvale, Linux in = Santa Clara). Each class meets twice a week the other day being = Thursday (Java) or Wednesday (Linux) in the evening (7:00 - 10:00 PM). = Cost is $295 per class and classes consist of the 20 - 3 hour class = sessions. I believe there is a "LAYOFF PROMOTION", a $100 discount (so, = "reduced price" is $195 per class), for the unemployed/laid off person, = but please call and confirm that this is correct and still in effect. = For specific details and maps, see the web site at www.scae.org. I have observed that some people have attend their first class without = registering and suggest that you come to Saturdays class even if you are = not or can not register before Saturday. The "Unix" class is primary taught using Red Hat Linux (on student = workstations), so primarily a Linux class. I believe they have only one = machine licensed to run Solaris and there is some discussion of how = things are done differently for Solaris. My reasons for posting this: I am a Linux user, have attended some of = the Cabal meetings, and am on the conspire@linuxmafia.com mailing list. = I thought this might be of interest to others on the mailing list. I am = a student signed up for the Java class and attendance for the first = class was poor. The SCAE administrators asked us to recruit more = students to the class. Below are some phone numbers and a class a list that I have copied off = of a flier. About four classes were canceled or combined with other = classes, so there are some class and schedule changes from what may be = listed below and on their web site. The Java class is, as scheduled, = meeting on Saturday morning, 9:30 AM, and Thursday evening. 7:00 PM at = Patrick Henry School, 1095 Dunford, Room E2, Sunnyvale. - Richard Young ---- as copied form a flyer --- LAYOFF PROMOTION! Bring in documentation proving you=92ve been laid off, = and=20 register for High Tech class at a reduced price!=20 Registration Starts: August 14 =96 Mail, Fax, Internet, Walk-in (for High Tech Students)=20 Phone: 408-423-3555, Fax: 408-423-3580=20 For more information call Rita Schwartz 408-423-3523 or Lyuba Iserlis = 408-423-3563 Website: www.scae.org Classes start September 8, 2003 Classes: Introduction to Information Technology (IT) Microsoft Office User Specialist (MOUS) Certification Programming=20 =B7 C/C++ Using Visual C++ .NET=20 =B7 C++ Advanced Course, Data Structures and Algorithms=20 =B7 Perl and JavaScript =B7 Java =B7 .NET using Visual Basic.NET, C#=20 =B7 XML - The Universal Data Exchange Language=20 Oracle Database =B7 Fundamentals =B7 Database Administration Software QA & Testing =B7 BioTech/Medical Device S/W Verification & Validation (V & V)=20 =B7 Software Quality & Manual Testing =B7 Automated testing: =20 - SilkTest=20 - SilkTest - Advanced Course - WinRunner - Introduction Course - WinRunner - Advanced Course - LoadRunner=20 - Astra tools - TestDirector Operating systems =B7 Windows 2000 Server=20 =B7 UNIX (Linux and Sun Solaris)=20 Networking =B7 A+ Certification Preparation Course =96 Technical Support =B7 Network + Certification Preparation =96 Network Administrator = Training=20 =B7 Cisco Networking Academy (CCNA - Part I, II, III, IV) ------=_NextPart_000_046D_01C3792A.CCEE9140 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi.
Santa Clara Adult Education has many "High Tech" = (professional=20 level) classes including Linux, Software Programming, Software = Testing, and=20 Networking.
 
The "Programming in Java" and "U N I X=20 (Linux and Sun Solaris)" may be of interest to Linux = users.
 
Both classes meet tomorrow (Saturday. Sept. = 13, 2003) in=20 the morning (9:30 - 12:30 AM) in different locations (Java in Sunnyvale, = Linux=20 in Santa Clara).  Each class meets twice a week the other day being = Thursday (Java) or Wednesday (Linux) in the evening (7:00 - 10:00 PM).=20  Cost is $295 per class and classes consist of the 20 - 3 hour = class=20 sessions.  I believe there is a "LAYOFF=20 PROMOTION", a $100 discount (so, "reduced price" is $195 per = class),=20  for the unemployed/laid off person, but please call and = confirm that=20 this is correct and still in effect.  For specific details and = maps, see=20 the web site at www.scae.org.
 
I have observed that some people have = attend their=20 first class without registering and suggest that you come to = Saturdays=20 class even if you are not or can not register before=20 Saturday.
 
The "Unix" class is primary taught using Red Hat = Linux (on=20 student workstations), so primarily a Linux class.  I believe they = have=20 only one machine licensed to run Solaris and there is some discussion of = how=20 things are done differently for Solaris.
 
My reasons for posting this: I am a Linux user, = have attended=20 some of the Cabal meetings, and am on the conspire@linuxmafia.com mailing=20 list.  I thought this might be of interest to others on the mailing = list.  I am a student signed up for the Java class and = attendance for=20 the first class was poor.  The SCAE administrators asked us to = recruit more=20 students to the class.
 
Below are some phone numbers and a class a list = that I have=20 copied off of a flier.  About four classes were canceled or = combined with=20 other classes, so there are some class and schedule changes from what = may be=20 listed below and on their web site.  The Java class is, as = scheduled,=20 meeting on Saturday morning, 9:30 AM,  and = Thursday=20 evening. 7:00 PM at Patrick Henry School, 1095 Dunford, Room E2,=20 Sunnyvale.
 
- Richard Young
 
---- as copied form a flyer = ---
 
LAYOFF PROMOTION! Bring in documentation proving = you=92ve been=20 laid off, and
register for High Tech class at a reduced price!=20
 
Registration Starts:
August 14 =96 Mail, Fax, = Internet,=20 Walk-in (for High Tech Students)
Phone:  408-423-3555,  = Fax: =20 408-423-3580
For more information call Rita Schwartz  = 408-423-3523 or=20 Lyuba Iserlis  408-423-3563
 
Website: www.scae.org
 
Classes start September 8, = 2003
Classes:
Introduction to Information Technology = (IT)
Microsoft=20 Office User Specialist (MOUS) Certification
Programming =
=B7 C/C++=20 Using Visual C++ .NET
=B7    C++ Advanced Course, = Data=20 Structures and Algorithms
=B7 Perl and=20 JavaScript
=B7 Java
=B7 .NET using Visual Basic.NET, C#=20
=B7 XML - The Universal Data Exchange Language
Oracle=20 Database
=B7 Fundamentals
=B7 Database = Administration
Software QA=20 & Testing
=B7 BioTech/Medical Device S/W Verification & = Validation=20 (V & V)
=B7 Software Quality  & Manual=20 Testing
=B7 Automated testing: 
- SilkTest
- = SilkTest -=20 Advanced Course
- WinRunner - Introduction Course
- WinRunner - = Advanced=20 Course
- LoadRunner
- Astra tools
- TestDirector
Operating=20 systems
=B7 Windows 2000 Server
=B7 UNIX (Linux and Sun = Solaris)=20
Networking
=B7 A+ Certification Preparation Course =96 = Technical=20 Support
=B7 Network + Certification Preparation =96 Network = Administrator=20 Training
=B7 Cisco Networking Academy (CCNA - Part I, II, III,=20 IV)
 
------=_NextPart_000_046D_01C3792A.CCEE9140-- From andy-news@schegg.org Sun Sep 21 22:12:52 2003 Received: from mtaw4.prodigy.net ([64.164.98.52]) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1A1J0F-0007cZ-00 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 22:12:51 -0700 Received: from schegg.org (adsl-63-197-148-37.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.197.148.37]) by mtaw4.prodigy.net (8.12.9/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h8M5BB7C017548 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 22:11:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F6E8594.30804@schegg.org> Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 22:16:04 -0700 From: Andy Schwartz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3.1) Gecko/20030425 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [conspire] Building a personal web-accessible email system X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 05:12:52 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 3014 Lines: 70 I would like to find a better way to receive, send and manage my personal email. I want to create a system where I can easily and (reasonably) securely process my email locally, remotely using a laptop I control, or remotely via a 3rd-party PC and web browser. A key requirement is that when I'm handling email I want access to my store of past emails as well as my address book. The way things are today ======================== - I have a pacbell email account to which I have my schegg.org domain mail forwarded - I have a usa.net webmail account. This account is historical, but I still receive important emails from there. - I use Mozilla as a mail user agent on my home linux system - When home: . I run Mozilla, which pulls in my pacbell and usa.net mail . I have all my mail archives under Mozilla's folder system - From my laptop, when at work or a cafe: . I can run SSH into my home linux box . I can start Mozilla on the X-Server on my laptop . This meets the above requirement for archive access, but is slow. X is not an efficient way to process my email work! . I can also use my laptop POP client to read and send through my pacbell account. This only works if Mozilla is not running at home, where it's constantly pulling email out of that pacbell mailbox! - From a random web-browser: . I can use my usa.net webmail account, but that's about it. What I am considering doing =========================== - (Re-)Enabling Qmail on my Linux box and having it serve as the primary mailserver for the schegg.org domain - Add IMAP support to Qmail, perhaps via Courier-IMAP - Modify Mozilla to access mail via IMAP - Add Webmail support to Qmail, perhaps via IMP or SqWebMail - When home: . I would continue to use Mozilla as my MUA, but it would now be managing my IMAP-based folders held by Qmail/Courier-IMAP - From my laptop: . I would allow IMAP based login, presumably with SSL security, so that Mozilla on my laptop could reach my mail folders - From a random web-browser . I would connect via shttp to webmail login screen to sign in and handle my email Questions ========= - The above doesn't say how I will handle my address book. I am unsure what my choices are, since I want to share the same address book when accessing it locally, remotely via my laptop and when using my webmail service. - The above doesn't describe what to do with the usa.net account. Mozilla can still access it and store it locally, but what I really want is for some process to constantly download it via POP and store it in an IMAP-accessible set of folders - What do others do who have similar requirements and have customized an environment to their liking? - The above will be a lot of work to set up, is there a better and/or simpler way to do things? - To the degree that I am on the right track, what are recommended s/w packages to provide IMAP, web-mail support and address-book support? Thanks for all comments and suggestions. Andy Schwartz From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Sep 23 11:45:30 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1A1sAE-0003Jl-00 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:45:30 -0700 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:45:30 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20030923184530.GI20106@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Rick Moen Subject: [conspire] (forw) knoppix 3.3 X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 18:45:30 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1498 Lines: 46 Damn, I just downloaded the Knoppix 3.2 2003-09-05 release, and now they release 3.3! I'd heard somewhere else about a replacement for knx-hdinstall, but have to re-find that information. Also, you can always do what the Knoppix FAQ says: 1.) initialize a free partition with the ext2 file system and mount it on /mnt/knoppix, for example. 2.) cp -a /KNOPPIX/* /mnt/knoppix/ 3.) set up /mnt/knoppix/etc/fstab and /mnt/knoppix/etc/lilo.conf for the new system (Caution: symlinks in /boot initially point to the Ram disk!), run lilo. 4.) mkdir /mnt/knoppix/home/knoppix && \ chown knoppix.knoppix /mnt/knoppix/home/knoppix 5.) Reboot, try the system out, fix any broken settings. ----- Forwarded message from Colin Charles ----- Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 18:32:22 +1000 From: Colin Charles Subject: knoppix 3.3 To: LUV Reply-to: Colin Charles Organization: ByteBot.net X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.3 X-Mailing-List: luv@luv.asn.au its out! many changes from 3.2, and knx-hdinstall is not supported any longer as well. go give it a download, currently on planetmirror, not on aarnet yet: http://public.planetmirror.com/pub/knoppix/KNOPPIX_V3.3-2003-09-22-EN.iso -- Colin Charles, byte@aeon.com.my http://www.bytebot.net/ - luv@luv.asn.au is for LINUX-RELATED POSTS ONLY. For details and information on how to unsubscribe, see http://www.luv.asn.au/mailinglists.html. ----- End forwarded message ----- From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Sep 23 11:56:58 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1A1sLH-0003gE-00 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:56:55 -0700 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:56:55 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] (forw) knoppix 3.3 Message-ID: <20030923185655.GJ20106@linuxmafia.com> References: <20030923184530.GI20106@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030923184530.GI20106@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 18:56:58 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 428 Lines: 13 Quoting myself: > I'd heard somewhere else about a replacement for > knx-hdinstall, but have to re-find that information. It's called knoppix-installer. If you read German, it's mentioned here: http://www.linuxtag.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=hdinst;action=display;num=1064337298 -- Cheers, Rick Moen Ban the Bomb. rick@linuxmafia.com Save the world for conventional warfare. From rick@linuxmafia.com Mon Oct 06 00:17:19 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.22 #1) id 1A6PcN-0003IP-F0 by authid for ; Mon, 06 Oct 2003 00:17:19 -0700 Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 00:17:19 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20031006071719.GS26760@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Subject: [conspire] List works, again X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 07:17:19 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 331 Lines: 9 I put in a radically new mail transfer agent setup (in order to do much better spam-blocking), and inadvertantly broke Mailman integration. Sorry about that! Fixed, now. -- Cheers, I have a mind like a steel trap. Rick Moen Rusty, and illegal in thirty-seven states. rick@linuxmafia.com From skiffworks@earthlink.net Mon Oct 06 06:01:01 2003 Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.49]:59938) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.22 #1) id 1A6UyU-0004Sp-2O for ; Mon, 06 Oct 2003 06:00:30 -0700 Received: from cpe-24-221-189-101.ca.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.189.101]) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1A6V0X-0002o6-00 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Mon, 06 Oct 2003 06:02:37 -0700 From: Bill Stoye To: Conspire Organization: Message-Id: <1065444715.612.35.camel@skiffworks> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.3 Date: 06 Oct 2003 05:51:55 -0700 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: skiffworks@earthlink.net Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_UNCONFIRMED_DSBL,USER_AGENT_XIMIAN version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Subject: [conspire] Knoppix-v3.3 flickers X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 13:01:02 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 520 Lines: 17 I've been using Knoppix 3.1 & 3.2 on the fly for awhile without any problems; I downloaded and burned the recent 3.3 version, booted into it andfind the Window does not fill the screen, it has about a one inch border and the screen constantly flickers. I gave the CD to a friend along with the 3.2 version, to expose him to Linux, both CDs work fine in his PC. Could the problem be the speed of my processor or DVD-ROM? The processor is 450mhz,the DVD-ROM is 8x and it has 765mb RAM. Any ideas? Thank you, Bill From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Oct 07 14:45:59 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.22 #1) id 1A6zeZ-0006Gv-H5 by authid for ; Tue, 07 Oct 2003 14:45:59 -0700 Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 14:45:59 -0700 To: Conspire Subject: Re: [conspire] Knoppix-v3.3 flickers Message-ID: <20031007214559.GK3713@linuxmafia.com> References: <1065444715.612.35.camel@skiffworks> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1065444715.612.35.camel@skiffworks> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 21:45:59 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 3133 Lines: 67 Quoting Bill Stoye (skiffworks@earthlink.net): > I've been using Knoppix 3.1 & 3.2 on the fly for awhile without any > problems; I downloaded and burned the recent 3.3 version, booted into it > and find the Window does not fill the screen, it has about a one inch > border and the screen constantly flickers. Please forgive me for possibly being unbearably literal-minded; it's a bit of an occupational hazard. When you say "booted into it", and report subsequent video problems, are you referring just to the X Window System (graphical) display, or does the problem manifest before the switch from console video into X? If unsure, you can try booting just into console mode (no X graphics). Type... knoppix 2,vga=normal ...at the boot prompt. If Knoppix starts fine in console mode, then you have an X11 (X Window System) support problem. (When solving problems, it's nice to know _what_ problem you're trying to solve, first. Accordingly, it's difficult for others to help you without clearing up that ambiguity, first.) Here's the list of all "cheatcodes" (boot options) you can start Knoppix with: http://www.knoppix.net/docs/index.php/CheatCodes Notice that you can do all manner of overrides at the boot prompt, including at times when Knoppix's hardware autodetection goes wonky and you need to guide it with a firm hand. E.g., you can specify the name of the specific XFree86 module to use for your video chipset; you can specify the screen resolution and monitor refresh rate to use; you can say "noapic", "noagp", "nodma" or "nomce" if you suspect those parts of hardware detection might be going wrong. Odds are, you'll have to do a little experimentation. Most likely, Klaus has introduced yet more aggressive hardware-detection tricks in the 3.3 series, and it's somehow frobbing your hardware the wrong way. It happens. Knoppix's hardware detection isn't perfect, but it's very good. It's inevitable, though, that Klaus's attempts to improve one part of that feature will occasionally brain-damage some other part. > I gave the CD to a friend along with the 3.2 version, to expose him to > Linux, both CDs work fine in his PC. Odds are, the CDs are uncorrupted, then. > Could the problem be the speed of my processor or DVD-ROM? Sounds unlikely, but, if you want to test that hypothesis, you know what to do: Step down the CPU speed temporarily, and/or slip in a cheap ATAPI CD reader. By the way, if that were _my_ DVD burner, I'd not be using it for everyday CD reading. Why? Because DVD and CD burners have heavy voice-coil armatures to support the burn lasers they have to carry during seek operations. The weight is hard on the bearings and other mechanical parts. Therefore, burner units have fairly low MTBF (mean time before failure) ratings. Do you really want to chew up the drive's service life reading CDs? Wouldn't it be smarter to use a $20 CD reader for that? -- Cheers, Ah, September, when the sysadmins turn colors Rick Moen and fall off the trees.... rick@linuxmafia.com -- Dave Van Domelen From rick@linuxmafia.com Fri Oct 10 04:15:12 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.22 #1) id 1A7vEm-0007r6-0h by authid for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2003 04:15:12 -0700 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 04:15:11 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20031010111511.GC21430@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Subject: [conspire] No CABAL meeting this Sat., Oct. 11, either X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 11:15:12 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 153 Lines: 5 Sorry to have to cancel another meeting, but I'm obliged to attend a wedding this Saturday, and couldn't find anyone to run the meeting in my absence. From star@starshine.org Mon Oct 20 15:04:04 2003 Received: from gemini.starshine.org ([216.240.40.169]:32864) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.22 #1) id 1ABi86-00049e-Le; Mon, 20 Oct 2003 15:03:58 -0700 Received: by gemini.starshine.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 7503D140BF; Mon, 20 Oct 2003 15:07:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 15:07:56 -0700 To: Rick Moen Message-ID: <20031020220756.GK9459@starshine.org> References: <1065444715.612.35.camel@skiffworks> <20031007214559.GK3713@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20031007214559.GK3713@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: star@starshine.org (Heather Stern) X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: star@starshine.org Subject: Re: [conspire] Knoppix-v3.3 flickers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.7 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.60 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Cc: Conspire X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 22:04:04 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 3132 Lines: 68 > Quoting Bill Stoye (skiffworks@earthlink.net): > > > I've been using Knoppix 3.1 & 3.2 on the fly for awhile without any > > problems; I downloaded and burned the recent 3.3 version, booted into it > > and find the Window does not fill the screen, it has about a one inch > > border and the screen constantly flickers. Interesting. Jim and I jsut booted 3.3 and found that our 15" flat screen, previously quite the happy camper, now needs to be force fed a hsync command during boot up. The best conclusion I have is that the default monitor settings have been changed. Sadly, framebuffer mode doesn't look nearly as good as the old modes did and either picking a sync or entering fb mode requires a command at the lilo prompt. :( > Please forgive me for possibly being unbearably literal-minded; it's a > bit of an occupational hazard. Gosh, I wouldn't know anything about *that* :D > It happens. Knoppix's hardware detection isn't perfect, but it's very > good. It's inevitable, though, that Klaus's attempts to improve one > part of that feature will occasionally brain-damage some other part. Thus my hypothesis. Alternately a newer rendition of X server may have changed heuristics for coughing up vrefresh and hsync, with basically the same results. > > I gave the CD to a friend along with the 3.2 version, to expose him to > > Linux, both CDs work fine in his PC. > > Odds are, the CDs are uncorrupted, then. I'd agree. > > Could the problem be the speed of my processor or DVD-ROM? > > Sounds unlikely, but, if you want to test that hypothesis, you know what > to do: Step down the CPU speed temporarily, and/or slip in a cheap > ATAPI CD reader. > > By the way, if that were _my_ DVD burner, I'd not be using it for > everyday CD reading. Why? Because DVD and CD burners have heavy > voice-coil armatures to support the burn lasers they have to carry > during seek operations. The weight is hard on the bearings and other > mechanical parts. Therefore, burner units have fairly low MTBF (mean > time before failure) ratings. Do you really want to chew up the drive's > service life reading CDs? Wouldn't it be smarter to use a $20 CD reader > for that? Likely. But whether its MTBF is sooner, I'd say putting the burner though less non-burner work is a win, when CD readers are so incredibly cheap. Though I'd probably spend a fiver extra to get a CD reader with decent speed in it (after all knoppix uses the CD heavily, no? one less bottleneck) - it may not be needed, as probably someone without that wise thought Rick just had... might give away or sell a mere fast reader pretty darn cheaply. __ __________ .' `._~~@========== Heather Stern * Executive Officer ( )---)/ : USS Augusta Ada NCC-55011 `.__.'\ / ~-----'-- : She dreams of the future... |_______.-' : hailing freq - 408 761 4912 . | . Heather Stern | star@starshine.org --->*<--- Starshine Technical Services - * - consulting@starshine.org ' | ` Sysadmin Support and Training | (800) 938-4078 From star@starshine.org Mon Oct 20 15:20:06 2003 Received: from gemini.starshine.org ([216.240.40.169]:32865) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.22 #1) id 1ABiNd-0004Dl-Bq for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2003 15:20:01 -0700 Received: by gemini.starshine.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0832D140BF; Mon, 20 Oct 2003 15:23:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 15:23:58 -0700 To: Conspire Message-ID: <20031020222358.GL9459@starshine.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: star@starshine.org (Heather Stern) X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: star@starshine.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.7 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.60 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Subject: [conspire] Meeting invite, Sat Oct 25 X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 22:20:06 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1829 Lines: 40 Any among y'all CABAL members who share not only an open source mindframe but also enjoy the worlds of Star Trek* are cordially invited to the 3rd anniversary party of the USS Augusta Ada - the 24th century's free software starship. LCARS interfaces may or may not be provided. Expect to see macintoshes, PC laptops, and probably klingons. We have power but no 'net connection. Location: 16th Avenue and Geary Blvd, in S.F. 5160 Geary Blvd San Francisco, CA 94118 415-668-4300 see BALE for details. If you don't know how to reach BALE by now I'll loan Rick a phaser set to "pelt with nerf arrows". Oh, alright, try this: http://trek.starshine.org/cmd/directions/ Time: 1 pm to join the normal agenda portion of the meeting. Election bits, upcoming conventions, techie (usu Linux or BSD), science, and trekkie notes. 2:30 pm to come to the party. It's a Round Table Pizza. There will be snacks but if you're a hungry sort consider yourself encouraged to buy pizza, garlic bread, and soda. You can RSVP if you like, or just show up :) Yes, it's halloween season but dressing up isn't required either. We've invited all the local starships, so there will be a lot of trekkiness present, quite a bit more than usual at our regular meetings. * you don't have to like all the series. Or all of any of the series. We know. Some shows are lamer than others... Of course, you'd be welcome at our regular meetings too, if you like the idea. We're always glad to have new members. __ __________ .' `._~~@========== Heather Stern * Executive Officer ( )---)/ : USS Augusta Ada NCC-55011 `.__.'\ / ~-----'-- : She dreams of the future... |_______.-' : hailing freq - 408 761 4912 From rick@linuxmafia.com Mon Oct 20 15:28:40 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.22 #1) id 1ABiW0-0004Ga-5r by authid for ; Mon, 20 Oct 2003 15:28:40 -0700 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 15:28:40 -0700 To: Conspire Subject: Re: [conspire] Meeting invite, Sat Oct 25 Message-ID: <20031020222840.GD3713@linuxmafia.com> References: <20031020222358.GL9459@starshine.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20031020222358.GL9459@starshine.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 22:28:40 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 798 Lines: 19 Quoting Heather Stern (star@starshine.org): > Time: 1 pm to join the normal agenda portion of the > meeting. Election bits, upcoming conventions, > techie (usu Linux or BSD), science, and trekkie notes. > > 2:30 pm to come to the party. Could even be feasible to go there and then make it down the Peninsula to the CABAL meeting, which runs 4 PM to midnight, the same day -- and people are welcome to arrive any time in the evening. (But that means that I _personally_ can't really make it to Augusta Ada, because I have to be at home _precisely_ at 4 PM.) -- Cheers, "Don't use Outlook. Outlook is really just a security Rick Moen hole with a small e-mail client attached to it." rick@linuxmafia.com -- Brian Trosko in r.a.sf.w.r-j From mhigashi@myrddin.imat.com Wed Oct 29 20:21:57 2003 Received: from adsl-207-214-84-142.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net ([207.214.84.142]:43073 helo=myrddin.imat.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.22 #1) id 1AF4Ji-0000Mf-H0 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 20:21:50 -0800 Received: (from mhigashi@localhost) by myrddin.imat.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h9U4JsQ11658 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 20:19:54 -0800 Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 20:19:54 -0800 From: Mike Higashi To: Cabalists Message-ID: <20031030041954.GA11578@myrddin.imat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhigashi@myrddin.imat.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.60 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Subject: [conspire] Long time, no 'Fest X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 04:21:57 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 652 Lines: 16 For those of you local to the Bay Area, you may have noticed that it's been a long time since we held our last Linux InstallFest. It was back in June, if I recall correctly. I usually prefer to avoid holding one during the entire holiday period, from Thanksgiving to New Year's. Which leaves the early part of November as a possibility for holding one last InstallFest for this year. Checking the Robert Austin show schedule, I see they are having one at the Cow Palace on November 8th, which fits Rick's preference for holding InstallFests on a regularly scheduled CABAL meeting day. So does Saturday, November 8th, sound good? Mike Higashi From conspire-bounces@linuxmafia.com Thu Oct 30 22:40:02 2003 Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 22:50:54 -0800 From: "@(none)" <""rick\"@(none)"> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031030 Thunderbird/0.3 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: cabal.conspire Subject: Re: [conspire] Long time, no 'Fest References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: linuxmafia.com!not-for-mail Message-ID: <4ic971xkus.ln2@linuxmafia.com> Xref: linuxmafia.com cabal.conspire:261 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 22:53:16 -0800 X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 06:40:02 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 128 Lines: 8 Mike Higashi wrote: > So does Saturday, November 8th, sound good? Sure does. I'll be adding it to the schedule. -- Rick M. From conspire-bounces@linuxmafia.com Thu Oct 30 22:55:03 2003 Path: not-for-mail Message-ID: <6dd971x83t.ln2@linuxmafia.com> From: Rick Moen Subject: Re: [conspire] Long time, no 'Fest Newsgroups: cabal.conspire References: <4ic971xkus.ln2@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: tin/1.7.2-20031002 ("Berneray") (UNIX) (Linux/2.4.18-bf2.4 (i686)) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 22:51:52 -0800 Xref: linuxmafia.com cabal.conspire:262 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 06:55:03 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 423 Lines: 12 "@(none)" <""rick\"@(none)"> wrote: Wow, so I can now report that Mozilla Thunderbird 0.3 majorly sucks as an NNTP newsreader client. (However, it's been reported to be ready for prime time by people using it just for e-mail.) Yes, that _was_ my post. (I hope the very malformed post I'm referring to makes it through Mailman's NTTP-to-mail gateway. If not, I'll post some sort of follow-up explanation.) -- Rick M. From conspire-bounces@linuxmafia.com Thu Oct 30 23:05:02 2003 Path: not-for-mail Message-ID: <45e971x9jt.ln2@linuxmafia.com> From: Rick Moen Subject: Re: [conspire] Long time, no 'Fest Newsgroups: cabal.conspire References: <4ic971xkus.ln2@linuxmafia.com> <6dd971x83t.ln2@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: tin/1.7.2-20031002 ("Berneray") (UNIX) (Linux/2.4.18-bf2.4 (i686)) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 23:04:38 -0800 Xref: linuxmafia.com cabal.conspire:263 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 07:05:02 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 404 Lines: 12 Rick Moen wrote: > Yes, that _was_ my post. (I hope the very malformed post I'm referring > to makes it through Mailman's NTTP-to-mail gateway. If not, I'll post > some sort of follow-up explanation.) Well, it didn't make it through, probably because Mailman couldn't parse the broken sender header. What I said was: Sure does. I'll be adding it to the schedule. -- Rick M. From conspire-bounces@linuxmafia.com Thu Oct 30 23:20:02 2003 Message-Id: From: "Karsten M. Self" Subject: Re: [conspire] Long time, no 'Fest Newsgroups: cabal.conspire Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 23:19:39 -0800 References: <4ic971xkus.ln2@linuxmafia.com> <6dd971x83t.ln2@linuxmafia.com> Organization: Gestalt Institute User-Agent: KNode/0.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Path: linuxmafia.com!not-for-mail Xref: linuxmafia.com cabal.conspire:264 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 23:23:18 -0800 X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: kmself@ix.netcom.com List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 07:20:02 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 767 Lines: 22 On Thursday 30 October 2003 10:51 pm, Rick Moen wrote: > "@(none)" <""rick\"@(none)"> wrote: > > Wow, so I can now report that Mozilla Thunderbird 0.3 majorly sucks as > an NNTP newsreader client. (However, it's been reported to be ready for > prime time by people using it just for e-mail.) Well, I was using pan until it developed the delightful habit of segfaulting when talking to my newsserver. Currently playing with knode, which seems decent. Except for only saving settings on exit (forbid your session or box should crash). Peace. -- Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What Part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Backgrounder on the Caldera/SCO vs. IBM and Linux dispute. http://sco.iwethey.org/ From mhigashi@myrddin.imat.com Tue Nov 04 17:48:14 2003 Received: from adsl-207-214-84-142.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net ([207.214.84.142]:60835 helo=myrddin.imat.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.22 #1) id 1AHCmF-0002l2-3z for ; Tue, 04 Nov 2003 17:48:07 -0800 Received: (from mhigashi@localhost) by myrddin.imat.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id hA51jgL02355 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 17:45:42 -0800 Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 17:45:42 -0800 From: Mike Higashi To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20031105014542.GA2071@myrddin.imat.com> References: <4ic971xkus.ln2@linuxmafia.com> <6dd971x83t.ln2@linuxmafia.com> <45e971x9jt.ln2@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <45e971x9jt.ln2@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhigashi@myrddin.imat.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Long time, no 'Fest Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.60 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 01:48:14 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 815 Lines: 22 On Thu, Oct 30, 2003 at 11:04:38PM -0800, Rick Moen wrote: > > Well, it didn't make it through, probably because Mailman couldn't parse > the broken sender header. What I said was: > > Sure does. I'll be adding it to the schedule. I did manage to get in contact with The Powers That Be at the show management office in time for the InstallFest to be mentioned in their email announcement. What I forgot to do is go over their description of the InstallFest. I did that last time, and told them to change the email address from to , but since I don't get their announcements I don't know if that was fixed correctly. If there's anyone on this list who actually gets the Robert Austin emails, could you please check that for us. Thanks, Mike Higashi From rogerhc@pacbell.net Wed Nov 05 17:54:32 2003 Received: from smtp804.mail.ukl.yahoo.com ([217.12.12.141]:27083) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.22 #1) id 1AHZLs-0000oU-Rr for ; Wed, 05 Nov 2003 17:54:25 -0800 Received: from adsl-68-121-107-193.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net (HELO orca) (rogerhc@pacbell.net@68.121.107.193 with plain) by smtp1.bt.mail.vip.ukl.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Nov 2003 01:53:53 -0000 From: Roger Chrisman To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 18:53:48 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <45e971x9jt.ln2@linuxmafia.com> <20031105014542.GA2071@myrddin.imat.com> In-Reply-To: <20031105014542.GA2071@myrddin.imat.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200311051853.48794.rogerhc@pacbell.net> X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rogerhc@pacbell.net Subject: Re: [conspire] Long time, no 'Fest Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.60 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 01:54:32 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 936 Lines: 33 > If there's anyone on this list who actually gets the Robert Austin > emails, could you please check that for us. > > Thanks, > Mike Higashi I forwarded Mike the November 5, 2003 Robert Austin Cow Pallace HTML monster email. Don't know if the addy was updated or not because I don't read HTML email but Mike can sick grep on it. I wish Robert would use email for what it is good for, plain text, and leave HTML on his web server. BTW Fest Question: Installing with Soft RAID -- If I bring my computer, three hard discs and my SuSE 9 CD set to the show, would someone be able and willing to help me create Soft RAID SuSE installation? (I have a PCI card Promise ATA Drive Controller plugged into my main board so that I can, and hope to, have the two drives that will complise the md0 RAID disk each on its own controller. The third drive I hope to use as a normal third drive for back up purposes.) Thanks, Roger SF From rogerhc@pacbell.net Fri Nov 07 12:24:19 2003 Received: from smtp804.mail.ukl.yahoo.com ([217.12.12.141]:34536) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.22 #1) id 1AID9T-00048f-E3 for ; Fri, 07 Nov 2003 12:24:15 -0800 Received: from adsl-68-121-107-193.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net (HELO orca) (rogerhc@pacbell.net@68.121.107.193 with plain) by smtp1.bt.mail.vip.ukl.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2003 20:24:01 -0000 From: Roger Chrisman To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 13:23:56 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <20031105014542.GA2071@myrddin.imat.com> <200311051853.48794.rogerhc@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <200311051853.48794.rogerhc@pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200311071323.56956.rogerhc@pacbell.net> X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rogerhc@pacbell.net Subject: Re: [conspire] Long time, no 'Fest Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.60 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 20:24:20 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 119 Lines: 6 (servers quietly fanning themselves in the background....) So, it seems we have no install fest tomorrow. Roger :-| From rick@linuxmafia.com Fri Nov 07 12:37:56 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.22 #1) id 1AIDMi-0004Cq-L4 by authid for ; Fri, 07 Nov 2003 12:37:56 -0800 Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 12:37:56 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Long time, no 'Fest Message-ID: <20031107203756.GP11857@linuxmafia.com> References: <45e971x9jt.ln2@linuxmafia.com> <20031105014542.GA2071@myrddin.imat.com> <200311051853.48794.rogerhc@pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200311051853.48794.rogerhc@pacbell.net> X-gazette-tag: Rick Moen User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 20:37:57 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 471 Lines: 13 Quoting Roger Chrisman (rogerhc@pacbell.net): > If I bring my computer, three hard discs and my SuSE 9 CD set to the show, > would someone be able and willing to help me create Soft RAID SuSE > installation? Mike Higashi is going to be there. I'll not, because I have family matters in the East Bay I have to attend to. That's also why I haven't had time to update Web pages yet. (Sorry, guys.) However, I'll be back at my place in Menlo Park by 4 PM Saturday. From mhigashi@myrddin.imat.com Fri Nov 07 17:31:13 2003 Received: from adsl-207-214-84-142.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net ([207.214.84.142]:43130 helo=myrddin.imat.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.22 #1) id 1AIHwR-0005ar-9f for ; Fri, 07 Nov 2003 17:31:07 -0800 Received: (from mhigashi@localhost) by myrddin.imat.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id hA81SRJ05293; Fri, 7 Nov 2003 17:28:27 -0800 Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 17:28:27 -0800 From: Mike Higashi To: Roger Chrisman Message-ID: <20031108012827.GA5260@myrddin.imat.com> References: <45e971x9jt.ln2@linuxmafia.com> <20031105014542.GA2071@myrddin.imat.com> <200311051853.48794.rogerhc@pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200311051853.48794.rogerhc@pacbell.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhigashi@myrddin.imat.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Long time, no 'Fest Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.60 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2003 01:31:13 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 541 Lines: 16 On Wed, Nov 05, 2003 at 06:53:48PM -0800, Roger Chrisman wrote: > > If I bring my computer, three hard discs and my SuSE 9 CD set to the show, > would someone be able and willing to help me create Soft RAID SuSE > installation? I've done software RAID (md1) with Mandrake and RedHat. Between the two of us, it shouldn't be very difficult to figure out how to do it with SuSE. In general, modern distributions have become so good at installs, including setting up software RAID, that it's not to difficult to figure out. Mike Higashi From mhigashi@myrddin.imat.com Fri Nov 07 17:42:58 2003 Received: from adsl-207-214-84-142.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net ([207.214.84.142]:43176 helo=myrddin.imat.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.22 #1) id 1AII7q-0005dz-IF for ; Fri, 07 Nov 2003 17:42:54 -0800 Received: (from mhigashi@localhost) by myrddin.imat.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id hA81eFV05389; Fri, 7 Nov 2003 17:40:15 -0800 Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 17:40:15 -0800 From: Mike Higashi To: Roger Chrisman Message-ID: <20031108014015.GA5343@myrddin.imat.com> References: <20031105014542.GA2071@myrddin.imat.com> <200311051853.48794.rogerhc@pacbell.net> <200311071323.56956.rogerhc@pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200311071323.56956.rogerhc@pacbell.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhigashi@myrddin.imat.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Long time, no 'Fest Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.60 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2003 01:42:58 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 476 Lines: 14 On Fri, Nov 07, 2003 at 01:23:56PM -0800, Roger Chrisman wrote: > > So, it seems we have no install fest tomorrow. It seems that even though I was promised that there'd be an annoucement of the InstallFest in the Robert Austin email, they dropped the ball and didn't put it in. However, since we did say there'd be an InstallFest here on this list, I'll go ahead and be there. So Roger, please go ahead and bring your system, or else I'll be feeling very lonely :-) Mike From rogerhc@pacbell.net Fri Nov 07 20:00:54 2003 Received: from smtp800.mail.ukl.yahoo.com ([217.12.12.142]:31589) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.22 #1) id 1AIKHI-0006Ev-3q for ; Fri, 07 Nov 2003 20:00:48 -0800 Received: from adsl-68-121-107-193.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net (HELO orca) (rogerhc@pacbell.net@68.121.107.193 with plain) by smtp1.bt.mail.vip.ukl.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Nov 2003 04:00:34 -0000 From: Roger Chrisman To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 21:00:31 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <200311051853.48794.rogerhc@pacbell.net> <200311071323.56956.rogerhc@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <200311071323.56956.rogerhc@pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200311072100.31227.rogerhc@pacbell.net> X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rogerhc@pacbell.net Subject: Re: [conspire] Long time, no 'Fest Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.60 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2003 04:00:55 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 531 Lines: 18 Mike, see you at the Cow Pallace tomorrow. If *anyone* would like to Install from my SuSE 9 Professional CD set, call me and we can arrange to both be at The Cow Pallace at the same time; I will only be there a couple of hours. Got a four week old baby at home and Mom wont want Dad to be gone all day. And if you want a copy of the Robert Austin HTML email to print your free pass from, let me know and I will email it to you. I think admission is $10.00 otherwise. See you there, Roger Chrisman 415-902-2568 (mobile) From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Nov 20 01:15:28 2003 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.22 #1) id 1AMkuO-0003V3-N4 by authid for ; Thu, 20 Nov 2003 01:15:28 -0800 Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 01:15:28 -0800 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20031120091528.GB13260@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Subject: [conspire] (forw) ANNOUNCEMENT: Linux Consultants' lunch, Th. Nov. 20, Sunnyvale X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 09:15:29 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2739 Lines: 73 ----- Forwarded message from Rick Moen ----- Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 00:43:37 -0800 From: Rick Moen To: Linux Consultants Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT: Linux Consultants' lunch, Th. Nov. 20, Sunnyvale The Linux Consultants' Lunch will be THURSDAY (the day just starting) 11 AM - 1 PM, at TURMERIK Restaurant, Bread & Kebab House, 141 S. Murphy Ave. between Washington Ave. and W. Evelyn Ave., Sunnyvale. That's about one long block east-south-east of the S. Mathilda Ave. overcrossing over the CalTrain tracks, and about two long blocks southeast of Central Expressway. We'll be having Turmerik's fixed-price lunch buffet, which is probably still $8 per person, all you can eat. Drinks, tip, tax are extra. _Note_: We'll be at a table in the BACK ROOM of the upstairs dining area. Restaurant Web site: http://www.turmerik.com/ MAP: ...is accessible from http://www.turmerik.com/directions.htm DIRECTIONS: 1. CALTRAIN: Exit at Sunnyvale Caltrain station. The S. Murphy Street / W. Evelyn Street intersection is just on the south side of the tracks. 2. VTA bus: Exit from a route 26, 32, 53, 54, 55, 304, or 305 bus as close as possible to Sunnyvale Town Center. The commercial block of S. Murphy Street is immediately east of Town Center. 3. CAR: Heading South on Hwy. 280 (from San Francisco): Take Hwy 85 heading north for about three miles. Take the El Camino Real exit south. After about two miles turn left on Matilda (towards downtown Sunnyvale). After 3/4 mile, turn right on Washington. Go through the first street light (Macy's will be on your right) and turn left on Francis. You will find parking and the back entrance to Turmerik on your right. Heading North on Hwy. 280 (from San Jose): Take the De Anza exit to the right (towards Sunnyvale). After about 2 miles, the road will become Matilda. When the road forks, continue on Matilda and cross El Camino Real. Continue straight for 3/4 mile and turn right onto Washington. Continue using the directions above. Heading North or South on Hwy. 101: Take the Matilda exit, heading south. Follow Matilda 1.5 miles, crossing the bridge (over the railroad tracks and Evelyn). Take your first left on Washington. Continue using the directions above. Heading North or South on Central Expwy.: Take the Matilda exit heading south. After crossing the bridge (over the railroad tracks and Evelyn), take your first left on Washington. Continue using the directions above. PARKING: There are ample lots surrounding S. Murphy Street (one at the restaurants back entrance), a garage at S. Frances/Evelyn, and large lot parking near Macy's/Sunnyvale Town Center. ----- End forwarded message ----- From Gopal.Chandavarapu@rtc.bosch.com Thu Jan 15 10:20:39 2004 Received: from gwa2.fe.bosch.de ([194.39.218.2]:35093) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.22 #1) id 1AhC6a-0002Cr-KL for ; Thu, 15 Jan 2004 10:20:32 -0800 Received: by gwa2.fe.bosch.de (Postfix, from userid 5) id B54E5C692D; Thu, 15 Jan 2004 19:20:25 +0100 (MET) Received: from fe63033.de.bosch.com(unknown 10.4.4.18) by gwa2.fe.bosch.de via smap (V2.1) id xma001379; Thu, 15 Jan 04 19:20:01 +0100 Received: from 10.25.58.5 by fe63033.de.bosch.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Thu, 15 Jan 2004 19:20:01 +0100 Received: from rtc.bosch.com (palpc15 [10.25.58.35]) by palsrv5.pal.us.bosch.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA12033 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 2004 10:21:02 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4006D9C8.8080607@rtc.bosch.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 10:19:52 -0800 From: Gopal Chandavarapu Organization: Robert Bosch Corp (RTC) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: Gopal.Chandavarapu@rtc.bosch.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.7 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.60 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 10:58:22 -0800 Subject: [conspire] MAC address filtering with 2.4.14 ???? X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Gopal.Chandavarapu@rtc.bosch.com List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 18:20:39 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 931 Lines: 32 Hi, A specific hardware and its cross compiler need 2.4.14 version of the linux kernel. I have to do MAC filtering on the local intranet for these devices, so with some help I came to know that http://ebtables.sourceforge.net/documentation.html#whatdo does MAC filtering. ----------- Good till now. Problem : The problem is ebtables works only with linux kernel 2.4.22/23 and version 2.6.x not with the kernel version 2.4.14 that I want. So -- Question 1: Is there any other module like ebtables which does MAC filtering and works with 2.4.14 kernel. Question 2: The MAC filter module should be capable of filtering the packets at run time. That means that the filter should be able to ACCEPT all packets from MAC address A for some time and upon users request at run time, it should be able to take a new MAC address B and ACCEPT only from B and DROP/ACCEPT packets from A. Please let me know. Thanks Gopal. From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Jan 15 14:52:38 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.22 #1) id 1AhGLu-0003gH-Ca by authid for ; Thu, 15 Jan 2004 14:52:38 -0800 Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 14:52:38 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] MAC address filtering with 2.4.14 ???? Message-ID: <20040115225238.GW794@linuxmafia.com> References: <4006D9C8.8080607@rtc.bosch.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4006D9C8.8080607@rtc.bosch.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 22:52:38 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1361 Lines: 32 Quoting Gopal Chandavarapu (Gopal.Chandavarapu@rtc.bosch.com): > A specific hardware and its cross compiler need 2.4.14 version of the > linux kernel. I have to do MAC filtering on the local intranet for these > devices, so with some help I came to know that > > http://ebtables.sourceforge.net/documentation.html#whatdo > > does MAC filtering. ----------- Good till now. > > Problem : The problem is ebtables works only with linux kernel 2.4.22/23 > and version 2.6.x not with the kernel version 2.4.14 that I want. > > So -- > > Question 1: Is there any other module like ebtables which does MAC > filtering and works with 2.4.14 kernel. My apologies for not having more time to spend dealing with this matter, but it occurs to me that a 2.4.14 kernel almost certainly suffers from at least two severe security defects, i.e., those announced over the last few months that lead to the release of 2.4.23 and 2.4.24. Unless you have specific knowledge of security fixes having been backported to your 2.4.14 kernel, I would strongly advise upgrading. It may be that, then, you would also be able to use ebtables. ;-> -- Cheers, The cynics among us might say: "We laugh, Rick Moen monkeyboys -- Linux IS the mainstream UNIX now! rick@linuxmafia.com MuaHaHaHa!" but that would be rude. -- Jim Dennis From conspire-bounces@linuxmafia.com Thu Feb 19 11:30:02 2004 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.6 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 11:27:41 -0800 From: Daniel Gimpelevich Newsgroups: cabal.conspire Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Path: linuxmafia.com!not-for-mail Xref: linuxmafia.com cabal.conspire:275 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: [conspire] ssh-keygen and multiple DSA keys in ~/.ssh/id_dsa.pub X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 19:30:02 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 366 Lines: 7 Is it possible to generate more than one DSA key and have them both available at the same time? Ssh-keygen wants to overwrite the existing key to generate a second one. Could I just append to the existing keyfiles? -DG -- "Consider that two wrongs never make a right, but that three do." --National Lampoon From conspire-bounces@linuxmafia.com Thu Feb 19 11:35:02 2004 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.6 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 11:32:41 -0800 From: Daniel Gimpelevich Newsgroups: cabal.conspire Message-ID: References: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Path: linuxmafia.com!not-for-mail Xref: linuxmafia.com cabal.conspire:276 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: [conspire] Re: ssh-keygen and multiple DSA keys in ~/.ssh/id_dsa.pub X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 19:35:02 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 416 Lines: 10 Is it possible to generate more than one DSA key and have them both available at the same time? Ssh-keygen wants to overwrite the existing key to generate a second one. Could I just append to the existing keyfiles? -DG -- "Consider that two wrongs never make a right, but that three do." --National Lampoon Sorry for double-posting. Wrong e-mail address. From paul@ondioline.org Mon Feb 23 05:44:56 2004 Received: from jenny.ondioline.org ([66.220.1.122]:2040) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.22 #1) id 1AvGOB-00067m-8g for ; Mon, 23 Feb 2004 05:44:51 -0800 Received: from paul by jenny.ondioline.org with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1AvGO9-00082S-00 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 2004 13:44:49 +0000 Resent-From: paul@ondioline.org Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 13:44:49 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: <20040223134449.GA29921@ondioline.org> Resent-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Received: from zork.zork.net ([64.81.246.102]) by jenny.ondioline.org with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1AvGNj-00082K-00 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 2004 13:44:23 +0000 Received: from sneakums by zork.zork.net with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AvGNh-0004bM-00; Mon, 23 Feb 2004 05:44:21 -0800 Resent-To: paul@ondioline.org Resent-From: Sean Neakums Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 13:44:21 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: <6u8yitewqy.fsf@zork.zork.net> To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: From: Sean Neakums Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 23:06:27 +0000 In-Reply-To: (Daniel Gimpelevich's message of "Thu, 19 Feb 2004 11:27:41 -0800") Message-ID: <6uznbdfj0s.fsf@zork.zork.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110002 (No Gnus v0.2) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Resent-Sender: Paul Collins Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 05:44:51 -0800 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: paul@ondioline.org Subject: Re: [conspire] ssh-keygen and multiple DSA keys in ~/.ssh/id_dsa.pub Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.60 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Cc: X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 13:44:57 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 937 Lines: 19 Daniel Gimpelevich writes: > Is it possible to generate more than one DSA key and have them both > available at the same time? Ssh-keygen wants to overwrite the existing key > to generate a second one. Could I just append to the existing keyfiles? -DG I believe you'll have to work with multiple key files. You can use the -f option to tell ssh-keygen where to write the private key. The public key will be written to a file of the same name with .pub appended. In order make use multiple keys, you can use the -i option to ssh to select the private key to use on a host-by-host basis, use ~/.ssh/config's IdentifyFile option to automate this (see the ssh_config man page if you don't currently use this file for details on how to write one), or else you can set up ssh-agent and ssh-add all your keys. In this last case, when you attempt to connect to a host, the correct key will be selected automatically. From rick@linuxmafia.com Sat Feb 28 09:29:44 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.22 #1) id 1Ax8HY-0004ne-Bf by authid for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2004 09:29:44 -0800 Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 09:29:44 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20040228172944.GC30785@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Subject: [conspire] Prism wireless chipsets X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 17:29:44 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 7327 Lines: 178 1. CABAL meeting today, 4 PM, Menlo Park! 2. People who have or are contemplating acquiring wireless cards may find the e-mails below interesting. I didn't know about the firmware-download issue until this came up. From rick Thu Feb 26 21:49:31 2004 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 21:49:31 -0800 To: Lynn and Patrick Subject: Re: this weks installfest.... Quoting Lynn and Patrick (i_solutions@earthlink.net): > I am a newby Linux user (SuSE 9.0 on a Sony Viao Laptop). and am > having a problem or two getting my wireless card up and running as > well as just not being too sure what I am doing. Is this the right > place to come for a bit of help? Certainly! I'm flattered that you're going to be coming all the way down from Sausalito. We'll try to make sure it's useful for you. Try this for me: Insert your wireless card, then pen up a terminal window, then type there the following commands. (In the lines that follow, don't type the first character -- the "#" or "$" -- which stands for your shell's prompt character.) $ su - (That is the command by which you temporarily become the root user.) # cardctl ident (That queries the PCMCIA manager about the identity of any and all PCMCIA cards currently in the machine.) Please e-mail back to me whatever you hear back from that command. > If so, what time and what should I bring? 4 PM or any time after that is fine. I start yawning and glancing meaningfully at the door at midnight. ;-> Look forward to seeing you on Saturday. (That's at my house in Menlo Park, you do understand.) -- Cheers, There are only 10 types of people in this world -- Rick Moen those who understand binary arithmetic and those who don't. rick@linuxmafia.com Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 12:25:03 -0800 From: Rick Moen To: Patrick Stephens Subject: Re: Wireless card and linux Quoting Patrick Stephens (i_solutions@earthlink.net): > Thanks for your help. Here is what I get when I ID the card: > > linux:/home/pstephens # su- > bash: su-: command not found > linux:/home/pstephens # cardctl ident > Socket 0: > product info: "Intersil", "ISL3890", "-", "-" > manfid: 0x000b, 0x3890 > function: 254 ((null)) > Socket 1: > no product info available > linux:/home/pstephens # > > > It sees the card but doesn't access it. Is this a config problem? That question is not exactly answerable as posed, so I'll have to approach it indirectly. (You might want to print out this e-mail and bring it with you. If it seems to ramble, it's because I'm researching your problem in real time, while writing this mail. Please realise that I've never tried to set up support for your particular card, before.) Drivers for any OS get developed, fundamentally, for particular _chipsets_, so the most relevant question when someone ask whether an OS has a usable driver for some particular piece of hardware is "What's its chipset?" Unfortunately, because most computer users have no idea what that term means, asking them that question will generally garner you a glazed expression at best, or more often some other data that the user happens to have but that is not the chipset identity (such as some manufacturer's make and model number). Happily, the command I had you carry out with root authority ("cardctl ident") causes your Linux system to query the hardware directly for its burned-in identification strings, which include the underlying chipset's manufacturer (Intersil Corporation) and chipset identity (ISL3890). (If this were a PCI card we were talking about, the analogous command is "lspci", i.e., list to screen all PCI identifying information, by querying the PCI-controller chip and dumping everything it returns to the screen. You might want to do that, feeding the result through a pager filter like "less", e.g., "lspci | less".) Thus, we have an answer to the first and most-important question: Your PCMCIA card is based on an ISL3890 chipset. The next question is what, if any, drivers exist for t he ISL3890. Like any sensible person, I use Google for that: Search for "ISL 3890 driver Linux". That takes us to, among other places, http://prism54.org/ I'm guessing, from looking at that Web site, that the ISL3890 is from the general family of Intersil chips called the "Prism" family, and that Intersil's marketing department calls it either the "Prism GT" or "Prism Duette". I can't tell which of these you have: The "GT" differs from the "Duette" in lacking compatibility with the 802.11a standard. Both, on the other hand, will do 802.11b and 802.11g. I'm guessing that the GT is the PCI-format card, and that Duette is the name for the PCMCIA/Cardbus-format one. Therefore, I'm guessing that your ISL3890-based card is, technically speaking, based on what Intersil Marketing would call a "Prism Duette" chipset. You could, if you like, chip in (pun not intended) any time with information you might have at hand that casts light on this situation, e.g., stuff written on the face of the card or in documentation you received with it. Remember: You have those, and I don't. Here's a list of makes and models of Prism cards that the Prism54 Project knows about: http://prism54.org/supported_cards.php Do you happen to know if any of those is yours? There's something about the driver needing to download firmware files to the card, here: http://prism54.org/~mcgrof/firmware/ That page also clarifies that Intersil doesn't exist any more, having been bought out by Globespanvirata, which then was bought out by Conexant. Various pages on the http://prism54.org/ site, including the readme page, clarify that the site concerns a Linux driver for Prism GT and Duette chipsets, and that its name is "prism54". That driver appears to be genuine open source, other than the distribution-restricted, binary-only firmware file described on (and downloadable from) http://prism54.org/~mcgrof/firmware/ . So, leaving aside the (unlikely) possibility that _other_ Linux drivers besides prism54 _also_ support your card, looks like there are two remaining (major) questions: 1. Does SUSE 9.0 include the prism54 driver? (If not, how do we add it?) 2. Does SUSE 9.0 include the blasted, annoying binary firmware file? (If not, how do we add it?) Looking on http://prism54.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/prism54-ng/README?rev=HEAD (the site's "readme" page), one sees an answer to both questions: Suse 9.0: Grab the firmware.agent file from http://prism54.org/~hvr/firmware.agent Put it into /etc/hotplug chmod +x /etc/hotplug/firmware.agent The driver works with the standard Suse kernel (2.4.21-99) So, looks like you have absolutely everything you need other than that restricted-distribution firmware file, which SUSE didn't include because it lacked the legal right to distribute it. I think that's all we'll need to make it work -- and you can now probably do that from home, without the need to drive to Menlo Park, if you want. On the other hand, you're certainly most welcome to join us. -- Cheers, The cynics among us might say: "We laugh, Rick Moen monkeyboys -- Linux IS the mainstream UNIX now! rick@linuxmafia.com MuaHaHaHa!" but that would be rude. -- Jim Dennis From berry@housebsd.org Sat Feb 28 09:33:53 2004 Received: from corona.housebsd.org ([207.112.136.202]:50533 helo=mail.housebsd.org) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.22 #1) id 1Ax8LR-0004pc-3Y; Sat, 28 Feb 2004 09:33:45 -0800 Received: by mail.housebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 13265) id 7F8DD31BA; Sat, 28 Feb 2004 11:33:23 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.housebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54B251C87; Sat, 28 Feb 2004 11:33:23 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 11:33:22 -0600 (CST) From: Sean Berry To: Rick Moen In-Reply-To: <20040228172944.GC30785@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: berry@housebsd.org Subject: Re: [conspire] Prism wireless chipsets Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.60 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 17:33:53 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 8100 Lines: 202 Another one to try (this is on RH FC1): # ifconfig eth0 up # (If eth0 is your wireless card) then # iwconfig eth0 and see which AP it binds to. -- Sean Berry works with UNIX, especially Solaris and NetBSD. (414) 559-3019 http://www.housebsd.org/~berry/photo/ On Sat, 28 Feb 2004, Rick Moen wrote: > > 1. CABAL meeting today, 4 PM, Menlo Park! > > 2. People who have or are contemplating acquiring wireless cards may > find the e-mails below interesting. I didn't know about the > firmware-download issue until this came up. > > > From rick Thu Feb 26 21:49:31 2004 > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 21:49:31 -0800 > To: Lynn and Patrick > Subject: Re: this weks installfest.... > > Quoting Lynn and Patrick (i_solutions@earthlink.net): > > > I am a newby Linux user (SuSE 9.0 on a Sony Viao Laptop). and am > > having a problem or two getting my wireless card up and running as > > well as just not being too sure what I am doing. Is this the right > > place to come for a bit of help? > > Certainly! I'm flattered that you're going to be coming all the way > down from Sausalito. We'll try to make sure it's useful for you. > > Try this for me: Insert your wireless card, then pen up a terminal > window, then type there the following commands. (In the lines that > follow, don't type the first character -- the "#" or "$" -- which stands > for your shell's prompt character.) > > $ su - > > (That is the command by which you temporarily become the root user.) > > # cardctl ident > > (That queries the PCMCIA manager about the identity of any and all > PCMCIA cards currently in the machine.) > > Please e-mail back to me whatever you hear back from that command. > > > If so, what time and what should I bring? > > 4 PM or any time after that is fine. I start yawning and glancing > meaningfully at the door at midnight. ;-> > > Look forward to seeing you on Saturday. (That's at my house in Menlo > Park, you do understand.) > > -- > Cheers, There are only 10 types of people in this world -- > Rick Moen those who understand binary arithmetic and those who don't. > rick@linuxmafia.com > > > > Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 12:25:03 -0800 > From: Rick Moen > To: Patrick Stephens > Subject: Re: Wireless card and linux > > Quoting Patrick Stephens (i_solutions@earthlink.net): > > > Thanks for your help. Here is what I get when I ID the card: > > > > linux:/home/pstephens # su- > > bash: su-: command not found > > linux:/home/pstephens # cardctl ident > > Socket 0: > > product info: "Intersil", "ISL3890", "-", "-" > > manfid: 0x000b, 0x3890 > > function: 254 ((null)) > > Socket 1: > > no product info available > > linux:/home/pstephens # > > > > > > It sees the card but doesn't access it. Is this a config problem? > > That question is not exactly answerable as posed, so I'll have to > approach it indirectly. (You might want to print out this e-mail and > bring it with you. If it seems to ramble, it's because I'm researching > your problem in real time, while writing this mail. Please realise that > I've never tried to set up support for your particular card, before.) > > > Drivers for any OS get developed, fundamentally, for particular > _chipsets_, so the most relevant question when someone ask whether an OS > has a usable driver for some particular piece of hardware is "What's its > chipset?" Unfortunately, because most computer users have no idea what > that term means, asking them that question will generally garner you a > glazed expression at best, or more often some other data that the user > happens to have but that is not the chipset identity (such as some > manufacturer's make and model number). > > Happily, the command I had you carry out with root authority ("cardctl > ident") causes your Linux system to query the hardware directly for its > burned-in identification strings, which include the underlying chipset's > manufacturer (Intersil Corporation) and chipset identity (ISL3890). > > (If this were a PCI card we were talking about, the analogous command is > "lspci", i.e., list to screen all PCI identifying information, by > querying the PCI-controller chip and dumping everything it returns to > the screen. You might want to do that, feeding the result through a > pager filter like "less", e.g., "lspci | less".) > > > Thus, we have an answer to the first and most-important question: Your > PCMCIA card is based on an ISL3890 chipset. > > The next question is what, if any, drivers exist for t he ISL3890. Like > any sensible person, I use Google for that: Search for "ISL 3890 driver > Linux". That takes us to, among other places, http://prism54.org/ > > I'm guessing, from looking at that Web site, that the ISL3890 is from > the general family of Intersil chips called the "Prism" family, and > that Intersil's marketing department calls it either the "Prism GT" or > "Prism Duette". I can't tell which of these you have: The "GT" differs > from the "Duette" in lacking compatibility with the 802.11a standard. > Both, on the other hand, will do 802.11b and 802.11g. > > I'm guessing that the GT is the PCI-format card, and that Duette is the > name for the PCMCIA/Cardbus-format one. Therefore, I'm guessing that > your ISL3890-based card is, technically speaking, based on what Intersil > Marketing would call a "Prism Duette" chipset. > > You could, if you like, chip in (pun not intended) any time with > information you might have at hand that casts light on this situation, > e.g., stuff written on the face of the card or in documentation you > received with it. Remember: You have those, and I don't. > > Here's a list of makes and models of Prism cards that the Prism54 > Project knows about: http://prism54.org/supported_cards.php > Do you happen to know if any of those is yours? > > There's something about the driver needing to download firmware files to > the card, here: http://prism54.org/~mcgrof/firmware/ That page also > clarifies that Intersil doesn't exist any more, having been bought out > by Globespanvirata, which then was bought out by Conexant. > > Various pages on the http://prism54.org/ site, including the readme > page, clarify that the site concerns a Linux driver for Prism GT and > Duette chipsets, and that its name is "prism54". That driver appears to > be genuine open source, other than the distribution-restricted, > binary-only firmware file described on (and downloadable from) > http://prism54.org/~mcgrof/firmware/ . > > So, leaving aside the (unlikely) possibility that _other_ Linux drivers > besides prism54 _also_ support your card, looks like there are two > remaining (major) questions: > > 1. Does SUSE 9.0 include the prism54 driver? (If not, how do we add > it?) > > 2. Does SUSE 9.0 include the blasted, annoying binary firmware file? > (If not, how do we add it?) > > Looking on http://prism54.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/prism54-ng/README?rev=HEAD > (the site's "readme" page), one sees an answer to both questions: > > Suse 9.0: > Grab the firmware.agent file from http://prism54.org/~hvr/firmware.agent > Put it into /etc/hotplug > chmod +x /etc/hotplug/firmware.agent > The driver works with the standard Suse kernel (2.4.21-99) > > So, looks like you have absolutely everything you need other than that > restricted-distribution firmware file, which SUSE didn't include because > it lacked the legal right to distribute it. > > I think that's all we'll need to make it work -- and you can now probably > do that from home, without the need to drive to Menlo Park, if you want. > On the other hand, you're certainly most welcome to join us. > > -- > Cheers, The cynics among us might say: "We laugh, > Rick Moen monkeyboys -- Linux IS the mainstream UNIX now! > rick@linuxmafia.com MuaHaHaHa!" but that would be rude. -- Jim Dennis > > > _______________________________________________ > conspire mailing list > conspire@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire > From skiffworks@earthlink.net Sun Feb 29 09:18:08 2004 Received: from grouse.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.116]:63379) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.22 #1) id 1AxUZl-0002Kj-EC for ; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 09:18:01 -0800 Received: from cpe-24-221-189-101.ca.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.189.101] helo=skiffworks) by grouse.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AxUZi-0004TK-00 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 09:17:58 -0800 Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 09:19:51 -0800 From: Bill Stoye To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Conspire=A0?= Message-Id: <20040229091951.02439ed1.skiffworks@earthlink.net> Organization: skiffworks X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.6claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: skiffworks@earthlink.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.60 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Subject: [conspire] Broadcom NetExtreme BCM5705 ethernet driver, Help! X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 17:18:08 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2108 Lines: 58 Conspire; I put together a new "Linux Box", it is plagued with two problems and I'm s= eeking help. The first; I've not been able to install the driver and get the Broadcom Et= hernet running. The second problem; two hard drives, one is an IDE drive and the other is a= Serial-ATA drive, the S-ATA drive does not get recognized. I would like to approach them one at a time, getting the Ethernet going fir= st, unless the S-ATA HDD not being recognized is a quick fix. Hardware list: CPU: AMD Athlon XP 3200, "BARTON", 400MHz FSB, 512K Cache =20 Motherboard: SOYO; SY-KT600 DRAGON ULTRA PLTN=20 [on-board: Broadcom NetExtreme BCM5705 ethernet] RAM: 2x Crucial; 184 Pin 512MB DDR PC-3200 HDD1: Hitachi 160GB 7200RPM SATA HDD2: Western Digital 80GB JB IDE Video Card: Asylum GeForce FX5200 256MB DVD=B1RW / CD-RW : Micro Advantage; Superdrive DVD-ROM: BTC 16x DVD-ROM Box: Antec, Super LanBoy, Aluminum Mid-Tower Case. Power Supply: Antec SL400, "Smart Power", 400W. CPU Fan: Vantec VA4C7040 Aeroflow Heatsink. All this is overkill, it's about having some fun and learning. I've had help with this but I seem to have reached a wall with the "Broadco= m NetExtreme BCM5705 ethernet". Running Libranet 2.8.1: Downloaded and copied "kernel-headers-2.4.21-5_2.4.21-5_i386.deb" into /tmp= directory. Ran: # "dpkg -i kernel-headers-2.4.21-5_2.4.21-5_i386.deb" Ran: # "find / -name "modversions.h" /usr/src/kernel-headers-2.4.21-5/include/linux/modversions.h Did: $ "mkdir /home/bill/broadcom" Downloaded and copied driver:"bcm5700-7.1.22.tar.gz" into broadcom director= y. In the broadcom dir, ran: $ "unzip linux-7.1.22.zip" This made directory, /home/bill/broadcom/linux. In the /linux dir.: $ "tar xvzf bcm5700-7.1.22.tar.gz" Then: $ "cd /home/bill/broadcom/linux/bcm5700-7.1.22/src" As root: # "make" Makefile:46: *** Liunux kernel source tree not found. Stop. I don't have any idea what my next step should be; please let me know if I'= ve left out helpful information. I'm not a raw recruit(newbie) but I haven'= t gotten out of boot camp yet! Thanks for your help and thoughts; Bill From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Feb 29 10:38:24 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.22 #1) id 1AxVpY-0002e7-Kp by authid for ; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 10:38:24 -0800 Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 10:38:24 -0800 To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Conspire=A0?= Subject: Re: [conspire] Broadcom NetExtreme BCM5705 ethernet driver, Help! Message-ID: <20040229183824.GA823@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Conspire=A0?= References: <20040229091951.02439ed1.skiffworks@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040229091951.02439ed1.skiffworks@earthlink.net> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 18:38:25 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2482 Lines: 58 Hi, Bill. I've been doing some work on Serial ATA (SATA), so let's deal with that, for starters: Doing some research on your SOYO SY-KT600 DRAGON Ultra Platinum motherboard, it seems that it uses a VIA KT600 North Bridge (the part of the motherboard where the CPUs and RAM are) and a VIA VT8237 South Bridge (the part of the motherboard where all the I/O support circuitry is). The VT8237, in turn, uses a VIA VT6420 chip for its Serial ATA function. I've written a Web page about Linux's support issues with various Serial ATA chipsets. See: "Serial ATA" on http://linuxmafia.com/kb/Hardware . Basically, support for VIA VT8237 / VT6420 hardware wasn't developed until Linux kernel 2.6.x. You're trying to load Libranet 2.8.1 (an excellent choice!), whose installation kernel, I gather... > Running Libranet 2.8.1: > Downloaded and copied "kernel-headers-2.4.21-5_2.4.21-5_i386.deb" into > /tmp directory. > Ran: # "dpkg -i kernel-headers-2.4.21-5_2.4.21-5_i386.deb" ...is a 2.4.x kernel, as is still the case with most distributions. On the bright side, I gather that you've been able to complete installation onto the other hard drive, so now you can (if you wish) fetch a prepackaged, precompiled 2.6.x kernel from Libranet (or Debian) -- or, at worst, compile one yourself. OK, your ethernet chipset: Hmm, I gather that this is a gigabit ethernet controller. Nice (potentially). Hmm, my Google hits on "Broadcom BCM5705" are suggesting you should use the "tg3" driver. Ah, that rings a bell: I have another document, similar to the Serial ATA one. See: "Gigabit Ethernet" on http://linuxmafia.com/kb/Hardware . It consists partly of a preserved discussion thread from this mailing list, and should be useful to you. > Downloaded and copied driver:"bcm5700-7.1.22.tar.gz" into broadcom directory. This is the manufacturer-issued driver that's said to absolutely suck rocks. By all accounts, you should use the community-developed tg3 driver, instead. That is typical of hardware support: Drivers isssued by manufacturers tend to be some combination of sucky and/or proprietary/binary-only. Avoid if you can; favour real open-source drivers produced by the open-source community. (My opinion; yours for a small fee. ;-> ) -- Cheers, The cynics among us might say: "We laugh, Rick Moen monkeyboys -- Linux IS the mainstream UNIX now! rick@linuxmafia.com MuaHaHaHa!" but that would be rude. -- Jim Dennis From skiffworks@earthlink.net Sun Feb 29 11:46:17 2004 Received: from grouse.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.116]:60730) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.22 #1) id 1AxWt8-0002xn-5J for ; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 11:46:10 -0800 Received: from cpe-24-221-189-101.ca.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.189.101] helo=skiffworks) by grouse.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AxWt7-0000Yv-00 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 11:46:09 -0800 Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 11:48:02 -0800 From: Bill Stoye To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-Id: <20040229114802.3d26d798.skiffworks@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <20040229183824.GA823@linuxmafia.com> References: <20040229091951.02439ed1.skiffworks@earthlink.net> <20040229183824.GA823@linuxmafia.com> Organization: skiffworks X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.6claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: skiffworks@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [conspire] Broadcom NetExtreme BCM5705 ethernet driver, Help! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.60 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:46:18 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 3517 Lines: 83 Thanks for the prompt response Rick. You have given me plenty to chew on and it'll take me awhile to sort it out. Yes, it is a "gigabit ethernet controller" and I have a good Libranet installation on the non s-ata hard drive. I did try to install kernel 2.6.2-2, from Debian's unstable branch, failed miserably and went back and did a fresh Libranet installation. Can you direct me to a reasonably readable document for compiling the kernel? I don't know how to download the kernel from Libranet with out compiling it; I have to do that on one machine, copy it to a CD and install it in the new box, so I used the .deb kernel. Thank you, Bill PS I like Libranet very much. On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 10:38:24 -0800 Rick Moen wrote: > Hi, Bill. I've been doing some work on Serial ATA (SATA), so let's deal > with that, for starters: > > Doing some research on your SOYO SY-KT600 DRAGON Ultra Platinum > motherboard, it seems that it uses a VIA KT600 North Bridge (the part of > the motherboard where the CPUs and RAM are) and a VIA VT8237 South > Bridge (the part of the motherboard where all the I/O support circuitry > is). The VT8237, in turn, uses a VIA VT6420 chip for its Serial ATA > function. > > I've written a Web page about Linux's support issues with various Serial > ATA chipsets. See: "Serial ATA" on http://linuxmafia.com/kb/Hardware . > Basically, support for VIA VT8237 / VT6420 hardware wasn't developed > until Linux kernel 2.6.x. You're trying to load Libranet 2.8.1 (an > excellent choice!), whose installation kernel, I gather... > > > Running Libranet 2.8.1: > > Downloaded and copied "kernel-headers-2.4.21-5_2.4.21-5_i386.deb" into > > /tmp directory. > > Ran: # "dpkg -i kernel-headers-2.4.21-5_2.4.21-5_i386.deb" > > ...is a 2.4.x kernel, as is still the case with most distributions. > > On the bright side, I gather that you've been able to complete > installation onto the other hard drive, so now you can (if you wish) > fetch a prepackaged, precompiled 2.6.x kernel from Libranet (or Debian) > -- or, at worst, compile one yourself. > > > OK, your ethernet chipset: Hmm, I gather that this is a gigabit > ethernet controller. Nice (potentially). > > Hmm, my Google hits on "Broadcom BCM5705" are suggesting you should use > the "tg3" driver. Ah, that rings a bell: I have another document, > similar to the Serial ATA one. See: "Gigabit Ethernet" on > http://linuxmafia.com/kb/Hardware . > > It consists partly of a preserved discussion thread from this mailing > list, and should be useful to you. > > > Downloaded and copied driver:"bcm5700-7.1.22.tar.gz" into broadcom directory. > > This is the manufacturer-issued driver that's said to absolutely suck > rocks. By all accounts, you should use the community-developed tg3 > driver, instead. > > That is typical of hardware support: Drivers isssued by manufacturers > tend to be some combination of sucky and/or proprietary/binary-only. > Avoid if you can; favour real open-source drivers produced by the > open-source community. > > (My opinion; yours for a small fee. ;-> ) > > -- > Cheers, The cynics among us might say: "We laugh, > Rick Moen monkeyboys -- Linux IS the mainstream UNIX now! > rick@linuxmafia.com MuaHaHaHa!" but that would be rude. -- Jim Dennis > > _______________________________________________ > conspire mailing list > conspire@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Feb 29 19:43:57 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.22 #1) id 1AxeLV-0004yy-Bj by authid for ; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:43:57 -0800 Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:43:57 -0800 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Broadcom NetExtreme BCM5705 ethernet driver, Help! Message-ID: <20040301034357.GB823@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <20040229091951.02439ed1.skiffworks@earthlink.net> <20040229183824.GA823@linuxmafia.com> <20040229114802.3d26d798.skiffworks@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040229114802.3d26d798.skiffworks@earthlink.net> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 03:43:57 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2937 Lines: 83 Quoting Bill Stoye (skiffworks@earthlink.net): > I did try to install kernel 2.6.2-2, from Debian's unstable branch, > failed miserably and went back and did a fresh Libranet installation. Hmm, that's a shame. (However, see near bottom.) As a suggestion, any time you're experimenting with new kernels, take care not to burn your bridges with the existing, known-good kernel you already have in place. E.g., if you're using lilo (as opposed to GRUB, the most popular boot loader these days), make sure you retain _two_ boot "stanzas" in /etc/lilo.conf, one for your old, known-good kernel, and one for the new-ish kernel you hope will take its place. My laptop's /etc/lilo.conf is like this: lba32 boot=/dev/hda root=/dev/hda3 install=menu map=/boot/map delay=20 vga=normal default=linux initrd=/boot/initrd.img-2.4.18-686 image=/boot/vmlinuz label=linux read-only image=/boot/vmlinuz.old label=linuxold read-only The point is that I am able to resort to the "linuxold" bootable image if at any point the newer "linux" bootable image turns out to have problems. > Can you direct me to a reasonably readable document for compiling the > kernel? Starting at the Debian category of my knowledgebase, http://linuxmafia.com/kb/Debian , find the entry called "Information". That link takes you to a page of mine of primary information resources for Debian users. It has a section called "Linux Kernels on Debian". One or more of the items there should be useful. > I don't know how to download the kernel from Libranet with out > compiling it; I have to do that on one machine, copy it to a CD > and install it in the new box, so I used the .deb kernel. You may want to ask about that on the Libranet support forum. I'm reasonably sure that Libranet offers some 2.6.x precompiled kernels in .deb format, suitable for Libranet 2.8. However, there's no reason why you shouldn't also be able to use one from Debian-unstable, bearing in mind that it'll require you upgrading one or two other packages, as well. I think the modutils may be one of those? Can't remember. Hang on: Let me check on my laptop: Package: kernel-image-2.6.2-1-686 Priority: optional Section: base Installed-Size: 43256 Maintainer: Herbert Xu Architecture: i386 Source: kernel-image-2.6.2-i386 Version: 2.6.2-3 Provides: kernel-image, kernel-image-2.6 Depends: initrd-tools (>= 0.1.53), coreutils | fileutils (>= 4.0), module-init-tools (>= 0.9.13) Suggests: lilo (>= 19.1), fdutils, kernel-doc-2.6.2 There you go: Your version of the initrd-tools package (the tools for dealing with initial RAMdisks) must be at least 0.1.53, your module-init-tools package must be at least 0.9.13, and your guess is as good as mine about how to parse that "coreutils or fileutils" part, but I think it means one or the other must be present and be at version 4.0 or higher. From conspire-bounces@linuxmafia.com Mon Mar 8 06:10:02 2004 From: fasten@hrs.com (0.17200861663845446) Newsgroups: cabal.conspire References: null Path: linuxmafia.com!not-for-mail Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 06:06:56 -0800 Message-ID: <09buh1xa2e.ln2@linuxmafia.com> Xref: linuxmafia.com cabal.conspire:284 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: [conspire] Urgent: 5000 Euro Reward (0.9043980531732824) X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 14:10:02 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 896 Lines: 22 5000 Euro Belohnung / 5000 Euro Reward -------------------------------------- Ich biete eine Belohnung von 5000 Euro wenn mir jemand verraet wie ein Streetgame (International Money Game) die Leute um den Spieler herrum beeinflusst. 0.021332818782852425 Ich stecke in genau diesem Unfug drin und irgendjemand manipuliert alle Leute, denen ich begegne und Radio bzw. Fernsehprogramme, die ich beobachte. I offer a reward of 5000 Euro if anybody tells me how a streetgame (International Money Game) manipulates the people around the player. I'm currently trapped in something like that and somebody manipulates everybody I meet and radio or TV programs I watch or listen to. 0.9503714997112781 http://www.fastenrath.net/, http://slashdot.org/~fastenrath/ Bernhard Fastenrath Steinfelder Gasse 1, 50670 Koeln, Germany fon: +49-173-5166326 fax: +49-69-13306976636 email: fasten@hrs.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Mar 10 14:42:31 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.22 #1) id 1B1CPH-0002aS-C1 by authid for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:42:31 -0800 Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:42:31 -0800 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20040310224231.GA9935@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Subject: [conspire] (forw) Re: Linux installation advice X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 22:42:31 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 3141 Lines: 79 ----- Forwarded message from rick ----- Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:41:58 -0800 To: Mike Lude Subject: Re: Linux installation advice Quoting Mike Lude (mlude@pacbell.net): > Howdy. > > I've got a fair amount of computer experience and want to get into > Linux (I'm currently running WinXP). I have an elderly laptop that I > can use as a test platform... it was purchased in 1997 or so (I'm not > sure of the specs). Believe it or not, having the machine be at least a year old is actually a blessing for Linux, because it makes it very likely that good open-source drivers have already been written for every function on the machine. (Manufacturers give coders early access to new hardware, but only if they're willing to sign NDAs = nondisclosure agreements, which isn't compatible with the resulting drivers being open source.) The main concern is RAM: If the laptop has less than 64 MB, you should consider buying a RAM upgrade. One place that does well for me is SA Technology, http://www.satech.com/ . You can get by with a minimal graphical desktop on Linux with as little as 32 MB, but you won't be happy. 128 MB is fairly comfortable, and 256 MB is ideal. Therefore, you might look into the cost of a RAM upgrade. If it's only $50, then the benefits might merit the expense, even for a 1997 laptop. > I installed RedHat 6.1, but gave up after I wasn't able to get KDE to > talk to the LCD screen properly. So: any advice on either a different > distro, or figuring out what the magic parameters are? I can help you configure X11 (the graphics) on Red Hat 6.1, if you like, because I happen to have been really good at that knack. However, it's a completely obsolete skill, because Red Hat 6.1 is now so obsolete that you really don't want to go anywhere near it. I keep in supply pretty much all the popular distributions (except those that must be bought shrinkwrapped, like Xandros), and can help you with any Linux or BSD distribution whatsoever. > If you guys are having an installfest any time soon, I'd be honored > to attend... Tell you what: I'm actually just about to cancel the upcoming CABAL meeting that's been scheduled for this Saturday, on account of a time conflict. However, there's an SVLUG installfest in San Jose the following Saturday. That would be, hmm.... :r! cal March 2004 Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 ...Saturday, March 20, from 11 AM to 4 PM, at Accent Technology, just off Brokaw Road between US-101 and I-880. Details at http://www.svlug.org/ . I personally may or may not be there, but lots of other people will be. After that, the next CABAL meeting will be Saturday, March 27, 4 PM to midnight, at my house in Menlo Park. There are two CABAL meetings every month, 2nd and 4th Saturdays. People are always welcome to bring machines for installation or other Linux work. -- This message falsely claims to have been scanned for viruses with F-Secure Anti-Virus for Microsoft Exchange and to have been found clean. ----- End forwarded message ----- From conspire-bounces@linuxmafia.com Wed Mar 10 15:00:02 2004 Path: not-for-mail Message-ID: From: Rick Moen Newsgroups: cabal.conspire Organization: If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already. Summary: Keywords: User-Agent: tin/1.7.2-20031002 ("Berneray") (UNIX) (Linux/2.4.24-1-686 (i686)) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:59:36 -0800 Xref: linuxmafia.com cabal.conspire:286 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: [conspire] Saturday, March 13 CABAL meeting cancelled X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 23:00:02 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1488 Lines: 35 As some will have noticed in my forwarded message, a minute ago, I'm cancelling this coming Saturday's CABAL meeting: Unfortunately, this is going to be a somewhat overbooked meeting for me personally. Something completely different: If you pay any attention at all to science fiction fandom, you probably noticed that in 2003 the World Science Fiction Convention (the WorldCon) was held at the San Jose Convention Center and surrounding hotels. The volunteers who put on that convention are sponsoring an open house / reception for _all_ Bay Area science fiction fans (and groups of fans). If you can drop by, please do. Quoting from http://www.sfsfc.org/ : Saturday, March 13, 2004 1PM San Jose Doubletree Hotel Cascade Room Future Directions of Bay Area Fandom and SFSFC Representatives of all Bay Area fan groups with an interest in discussing the future directions of Bay Area fandom and how SFSFC can be a part of it are invited to attend and present their ideas and plans. The San Jose Doubletree is near San Jose International Airport, and is right at the US-101 Brokaw Road / North First Street offramp, San Jose. Maybe I'll see you there. (Hey, I'll have Knoppix disks with me, so we could even do Linux installations, there.) -- Cheers, There are only 10 types of people in this world -- Rick Moen those who understand binary arithmetic and those who don't. rick@linuxmafia.com From conspire-bounces@linuxmafia.com Thu Mar 11 16:30:02 2004 Path: not-for-mail Message-ID: From: Rick Moen Newsgroups: cabal.conspire References: Organization: If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already. User-Agent: tin/1.7.2-20031002 ("Berneray") (UNIX) (Linux/2.4.24-1-686 (i686)) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 16:29:06 -0800 Xref: linuxmafia.com cabal.conspire:287 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: [conspire] Re: Saturday, March 13 CABAL meeting cancelled X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list List-Id: Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 00:30:02 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1412 Lines: 32 Rick Moen wrote: > Something completely different: If you pay any attention at all to > science fiction fandom, you probably noticed that in 2003 the World > Science Fiction Convention (the WorldCon) was held at the San Jose > Convention Center and surrounding hotels. The volunteers who put on > that convention are sponsoring an open house / reception for _all_ > Bay Area science fiction fans (and groups of fans). If you can drop by, > please do. Quoting from http://www.sfsfc.org/ : > > > Saturday, March 13, 2004 1PM > San Jose Doubletree Hotel Cascade Room ^^^^^^^^^^^^ > Future Directions of Bay Area Fandom and SFSFC > > Representatives of all Bay Area fan groups with an interest in > discussing the future directions of Bay Area fandom and how SFSFC > can be a part of it are invited to attend and present their ideas > and plans. > > > The San Jose Doubletree is near San Jose International Airport, and is > right at the US-101 Brokaw Road / North First Street offramp, San Jose. Minor change, in case anyone else here will be attending: The meeting will be in the Cedar Ballroom (upstairs, at the far north end.) -- Cheers, "Linux means never having to delete your love mail." Rick Moen -- Don Marti rick@linuxmafia.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Mon Apr 12 23:29:03 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.30 #1) id 1BDHPr-0007J0-77 by authid for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2004 23:29:03 -0700 Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 23:29:03 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20040413062903.GH2020@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Subject: [conspire] (forw) Installation files missing X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 06:29:03 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1513 Lines: 50 Forwarded from private mail, with permission. ----- Forwarded message from jose tav [address snipped] ----- Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 18:04:15 -0700 (PDT) From: jose tav [address snipped] To: Rick Moen Subject: Installation files missing Hi Rick, Well, as I expected the WinMe installation package (one CD) that comes with the laptop did take the whole HD space (10GB). I found a floppy with the files: idlinux.sys, inboot.img, syslinux and vmlinuz in my computer. I tried to re-partition my HD by running idlinux.sys,it seems that it is trying to install some linux program, rather than opening the window for me to select the HD's space I want to partition to. Incidentally, I will give you back the "stolen" floppy at the first chance. I should be able to look the list of files in a Linux CD while in Windows other? Some how I can find the CD that Jim? burned for me with the edited files to correct the display problem. Thanks again for all the help you guys provide us. Jose 408-203-7562 ----- --- Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting jose tav [address snipped]: > > > Hi Folks, > > I hope you can squeeze me in for next Saturday > install > > Fest. > > Hi, Jose! I hope this reaches you in time. The > CABAL meeting will be > held as scheduled at 4 PM to midnight, Saturday > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ----- End forwarded message ----- From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Apr 13 23:50:08 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.30 #1) id 1BDeDo-0000Fx-77 by authid for ; Tue, 13 Apr 2004 23:50:08 -0700 Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 23:50:08 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20040414065008.GA965@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Subject: [conspire] (forw) Re: Cow Place this coming Saturday? X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 06:50:08 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2680 Lines: 82 ----- Forwarded message from rick ----- Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 23:49:18 -0700 To: [snipped] Subject: Re: Cow Place this coming Saturday? Quoting [correspondent name snipped]: > Are you going to be at the Cow Place this weekend? No. But: > Is it to late to ask for HELP. Fortunately, it's always time to ask for help. ;-> We're holding our CABAL meetings on (as always) the 2nd and 4th Saturdays, so the next one is... rick@guido:~$ cal April 2004 Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 rick@guido:~$ Hmm, looks like the 24th. > I just read your calendar and it doesn't include April. Thanks, fixed! You can always also check BALE at http://linuxmafia.com/bale/ . It's automated, so it has current dates even when I forget to fix the CABAL Web pages. > I have a Compaq Armada 1750 laptop and would like to install Linux . > I have a boxed set of Madrake 8.1 and Star Office 5.2 that I would > like to install. If you have something better or easier to install > its OK with me. Hmm, since Mandrake 10.0 is out, I'll make sure to download it for you, over the next few days. It's on several CD-ROMs, so it takes quite a long time to fetch. (I'm assuming you want Mandrake. If you want something else, please speak up. We don't care which distribution you want; we'll help you with any of them, or any of the BSDs.) Although Star Office 5.2 is pretty outdated itself, it's worth keeping around if only because of the excellent fonts and clipart collections on the CD. You'll find that the office suite OpenOffice.org 1.1.x, which comes with all current Linux distributions, is much more satisfactory otherwise. To explain, after Sun Microsystems bought the Star Office suite, they open-sourced as much of it as they legally could. The result is a suite derived from Star Office 5.2 called OpenOffice.org . In turn, Sun has based all subsequent releases of Star Office on the OpenOffice.org codebase, much as AOL/Netscape now bases all releases of Netscape Communicator on the open-source Mozilla Communicator Web browser. Star Office 6.0 was derived from OpenOffice.org 1.0 Star Office 7.0 was derived from OpenOffice.org 1.1. > I have looked up on the NET a few help files for installing on the > Armada 1750 and it way over my head and I need help. No problem! We'll be glad to assist you, if you can make it on the 24th. Looks like http://utopia.ision.nl/users/mathijs/armada1750.html is a relevant Web page. The only significant headache looks to be the winmodem, and I'll make no promises about that. ----- End forwarded message ----- From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Apr 21 01:38:00 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.30 #1) id 1BGDF1-0001J5-ST by authid for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 01:37:59 -0700 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 01:37:59 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] (forw) Installation files missing Message-ID: <20040421083759.GM19884@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <20040413062903.GH2020@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040413062903.GH2020@linuxmafia.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 08:38:00 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 10140 Lines: 221 [I also posted this via the cabal.conspire newsgroup, but am not sure the gateway's working; thus this re-post.] Quoting Jose Tav: > Hi Rick, > Well, as I expected the WinMe installation package > (one CD) that comes with the laptop did take the whole > HD space (10GB). > I found a floppy with the files: idlinux.sys, > inboot.img, syslinux and vmlinuz in my computer. That sounds like it must have been a Linux boot floppy for your system. Such floppies are good to keep around just in case you accidentally lose the ability to boot your system from the hard drive, e.g., because a Microsoft OS installer has overwritten the Master Boot Record without asking your permission (as they always do). > I tried to re-partition my HD by running > idlinux.sys,it seems that it is trying to install some > linux program, rather than opening the window for me > to select the HD's space I want to partition to. I don't know what you mean by "running ldlinux.sys". Do you mean you booted that floppy? (This may not be important: I suspect you were just pursuing the wrong path of investigation, based on a bad assumption about the purpose of that floppy disk.) > Incidentally, I will give you back the "stolen" floppy > at the first chance. If I understand correctly what you're referring to, that was a floppy intended specifically for you to have. Just to refresh my own memory, as well as to inform this mailing list's readership about what we're talking about, you showed up at a CABAL meeting with a Windows machine (a laptop) whose ~10 GB Windows partition you asked us to shrink to make room for Linux. We did this using BootIt Next Generation (which you can download, as we discussed by telephone this evening). The Windows partition got shrunk to ~5.5 GB. Having done that, we then installed a Linux distribution (Knoppix) into the suddenly unoccupied disk space. Anticipating that you'd want to reinstall Windows (because your Windows partition was damaged), we put the "lilo" bootloader in the initial sector of your Linux partition, enabled the "active" (bootable) flag for that partition in the partition table, and removed the flag from the Windows partition. When you left, you were able to boot both Linux and your (damaged) Windows installations, with help from lilo. You say WinME's installer has now blown away all our work, and that such is "expected". Well, no, it's not expected: As I explained at the time, _if_ you have a genuine installation CD for WinME, as opposed to a "recovery" CD, then you _are_ given the option to use less than the entire hard drive. You believed your WinME CD to be a genuine, full installation CD, which is why we proceeded with Linux installation. (Why install Linux if you know you'll be wiping it out almost immediately?) Either you were mistaken (i.e., all you have is a "recovery" CD, after all) or you somehow missed WinME's option to do custom partitioning. To explain: Many PC vendors provide "recovery" CDs only (for the bundled Microsoft OS), which, when booted, put back the exact, hardware-vendor-tweaked installation of MS-Windows that was present on the hard drive when bought. Those CDs' installation routines offer the user _no_ customisation whatsoever: You basically are allowed either to let them proceed to wipe out your hard drive, or not. Users in that situation either must endure that behaviour and reconcile themselves to having their entire hard drives wiped out every time they reinstall Windows, or must pay _again_ for that Microsoft OS, this time a real installation copy bought at full retail prices. > I should be able to look the list of files in a Linux CD while in > Windows other? Yes, you can browse a Linux distribution CD-ROM using MS-Windows. Expect the filenames to be truncated, among other problems. But that isn't going to help you. You're asking that question because you think you'll find there the boot configuration Jim and I created. Sorry, no: It was on the hard drive. > Some how I can find the CD that Jim? burned for me with the edited > files to correct the display problem. Here's the bad news: You've blown away all of Jim's and my work. By doing whatever you did with that WinME CD-ROM of yours -- judging by your statement that Windows "did take the whole HD space" -- the installer routine on that disk blew away your old Windows installation, all of the existing partitions, and Knoppix. But I should ask, at this point: Are you _sure_ that WinME disk -- whatever it is -- "took the whole HD space"? How are you determining this? Open up My Computer and get Properties on the C: drive volume. Does it say that C: is about 10 GB? If it does, then you have indeed blown away everything. If not, then maybe Knoppix is still sitting there patiently on the second partition (one that Windows would ignore, because it doesn't understand the partition format). Let's be pessimistic, though, and assume Knoppix got blown away. You should do this: 1. Find out for certain about your WinME CD. Does it say "Recovery" on it? Do any of its bootup screens say "Recovery"? If it's a recovery CD, that explains what happened, and you should know that the same will happen every time you "install" from it. Getting a CD with a real installer (if you want one) will cost you some extra $. 2. Boot up your Knoppix CD, and at the first screen hit F2 to see boot options. I _think_ you'll want to type something like this: knoppix lang=us screen=1024x768 xmodule=fbdev fb1024x768 You should study the F2 screen, the boot options, to verify that I've remembered that correctly, _and_ you should boot Knoppix from CD with those options to test them. I.e., make sure the video looks OK, and that Knoppix is usable. Jot down the boot options you end up using; you'll need them again later. Just for the benefit of other readers: When we first booted the Knoppix CD on your laptop, all the video was displayed in a small portion of your LCD screen. I experimented with Knoppix boot options to force Knoppix to use "framebuffer" video mode (the "fb" in the above), and succeeded in making the problem go away. Having done that, and hearing you say you'd like Knoppix installed into a second partition on your hard drive, we wrote down those boot options, and then at the end of Knoppix installation added them to the instructions carried out at each Linux boot by the "lilo" bootloader. (We'll get back to that point, further below.) 3. Download BootIt Next Generation, and create a BootIt NG floppy. Boot that floppy. Use BootIt NG to shrink your WinME partition, thereby freeing up a few gigabytes of space for Knoppix. Exit BootIt NG. 4. Make sure WinME still boots and is OK. 5. Boot Knoppix from CD again, using the boot options you've tested in step 2, above. This time, append "2" to the end of those options. I.e., assuming I remembered the options correctly, type knoppix lang=us screen=1024x768 xmodule=fbdev fb1024x768 2 ...at the Knoppix boot prompt. The "2" causes Knoppix to boot directly into character mode, and not start up graphics. When Knoppix finishes its startup, you should be at a command prompt. Type "knx-hdinstall". 6. You are now in the Knoppix installer, and it's really pretty simple to use. The only difficult part is partitioning: You'll want to create a big partition #2 ("hda2") taking up almost all the remaining disk space, for Linux (partition type 83 = native-Linux), plus a ~256 MB Linux swap partition (type 82) "hda3". Do not touch partition hda1, which is your Windows partition, with one exception: Remove its "active" (bootable) flag, and put that flag on the native-Linux second partition (hda2), instead. All of the foregoing partitioning occurs in the "cfdisk" utility, which the Knoppix installer puts you through. 7. Later on, the Knoppix installer will ask you where you want the "lilo" bootloader installed. You want it installed to /dev/hda2, i.e., to your Linux partition. 8. The Knoppix installer will complete with very little additional fuss. It will finish up and reboot -- at which time, you'll see the same shrunk-screen problem again. Our last step is to change the lilo boot options to fix the video problem at each boot: Login as the root user. Now, you'll have to find a text-editing program that's not too user-hostile. I guess you could use "kate", the KDE text-editor, which you'll find somewhere on the KDE menus (bottom left). You'll need to edit file /etc/lilo.conf . You'll find that the file is so clogged with "comment" lines -- ones starting with "#" and thus ignored by the lilo utility -- that it's difficult to read. But if you disregard those, the contents will be something like this: lba32 boot=/dev/hda root=/dev/hda3 install=menu map=/boot/map delay=20 vga=normal default=linux initrd=/boot/initrd.img-2.4.18-686 image=/boot/vmlinuz label=linux read-only image=/boot/vmlinuz.old label=linuxold read-only In that first section, above any lines that start with "image", you will need to insert a new line, something like this: append="lang=us screen=1024x768 xmodule=fbdev fb1024x768" Save your changes, then exit the text editor. Open a terminal window, and type "lilo -v". This causes the /sbin/lilo program to rewrite the lilo boot information again to hard disk, based on the instructions (newly revised) in /etc/lilo.conf . Now, reboot. Your brand-new Knoppix HD installation should (if we didn't screw up anything) now address the full width of the LCD screen, again. In case you're curious, the "lang=us" option will probably overcome Knoppix's tendency to lapse into the German language in places, which owes to Klaus Knopper being from Germany. -- Cheers, A good man has few enemies; a ruthless man has none. Rick Moen rick@linuxmafia.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Apr 22 20:23:19 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.30 #1) id 1BGrHb-0000Pa-FV by authid for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 20:23:19 -0700 Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 20:23:19 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20040423032319.GA1573@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Subject: [conspire] (forw) Re: things, wanna old, smaller mon. X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 03:23:19 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 3340 Lines: 76 ----- Forwarded message from rick ----- Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 20:22:56 -0700 To: bruce coston Subject: Re: things, wanna old, smaller mon. Quoting bruce coston (jane_ikari@yahoo.com): > old monitor, dell, <17", good 4smaller kitchen tables, reports indicate it is 'working' but needs occasional thump and/or cord jiggling, on Bernardo 1 house down from parkington, near cherry chase shopping center in sunnyvale. [...] Hi, Bruce! You might want to post that to the CABAL mailing list, "conspire". For one thing, that way Heather will see your remarks thanking her, rather than just me seeing them. I see that you're already on that mailing list, so you can just post it directly to "conspire@linuxmafia.com". > No Thanks 2 whoever refused to let me get the 999 megs of swap i > wanted for linux's on my drive, 127m is too little for Yoper and i > wanna try Yoper.... Oops, that might have been me, since I generally advise people that _rarely_ does someone need a huge amount of swap. (On the other hand, I would never "refuse to let" someone use more; I just try to describe the situations where such would be needed, and let the user decide. Um, since Yoper is just a RH-derivative with 686 optimisation, I can't imagine why it would need more swap than any other Linux distribution. Anyhow, there are a number of utilities that claim to be able to resize a native-Linux filesystem. I mention a bunch of them here: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/index.php?page=kicking#partition You could use one of those to shrink one or more of your existing Linux filesystems (without deleting and recreating the filesystems), allowing you to then create additional swap space in the now-available storage. The Linux kernel swapper process has no problem handling multiple swap partitions. Personally, I wouldn't use one of those utilities, but rather would (1) boot a Linux maintenance disk (a Tom's Root/Boot floppy, an LNX-BBC, a Knoppix CD, etc.), (2) copy the entire filesystem (to be resized) across the LAN to a second Linux machine, for safekeeping, and then (3) blow away the partition to be resized, create it in smaller dimensions, and copy the data back across the LAN. Methods for copying data are described here: "Copying Directory Trees" on http://linuxmafia.com/kb/Admin > Is there a free VM i could use to make this easier and > would it make it easier since it would pretend to be a sound blaster > vs my opti929sound blaster almost compatible to the os's etc. but i'd > probably lose some accuracy. By "free VM" do you mean an x86-emulation environment, sort of like VMware except open source? In that case, you might be looking for User-Mode Linux, which allows you to do Linux-on-Linux things very nicely. Won't let you do other-OSes-on-Linux, though. http://user-mode-linux.sourceforge.net/ FYI, I'm going to forward this reply to "conspire". (You should post your original there, too, but that's your call.) Stuff should go to the group as a whole, and not just to me privately -- unless you actually intend to talk to me privately for some reason. -- Resize your browser so the following line touches both margins!
Best Regards, Rick Moen, rick@linuxmafia.com ----- End forwarded message ----- From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Fri Apr 23 00:52:20 2004 Received: from web60810.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.73]:44226) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.30 #1) id 1BGvTp-0001mu-3T for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 00:52:13 -0700 Message-ID: <20040423075210.42264.qmail@web60810.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.187.25] by web60810.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 00:52:10 PDT Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 00:52:10 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-622266112-1082706730=:41161" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Subject: [conspire] things from bruce, ie me. X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 07:52:20 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 4418 Lines: 30 --0-622266112-1082706730=:41161 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii No, your behavior was fine Rick. Suppossedly that old monitor had just been working before going outside 2 nights ago at bernardo and parkington, i think it just missed the rain and its smaller than what weve been using on ricks table but i wont grab it since i can't store it; unless someone tells me to. as for the rest of my message, sorry about sending 2wrong place but i didn't save original message and can't post it here. somewhere on the Yoper site they asked for 500m swap, i figured they might not need it since they seem a modified Red Hat but maybe they do and the bit about debugging a hex dump occasionally means you do want more swap than ram. somewhere i saw recommendation for 1024m swap as a new general number but i plan on less than that, for someone even newer than me choosing a window environment i've looked and like what i see and read about Kahakai as it seems 2b a 50% bigger fluxbox that accomodates the gnome stuff better. Since my box beats a 166 pentium by lots, i ccan host more wm/gui than fluxbox but often just the Kde stuff should give good readable results, it seems to want more resources than the others and lots of other mangers exist with their own charms.[the fancy transparent alpha blending, skinning etc. seemed to help readability not! other users of this box suffers impaired eyesight so while i still want the fancy stuff, i won't use it much, the python scripting made the final difference 4me and we'll see how it goes in practice for this ex-Amigan , / amigoid.] Motherboards: HEATHER told me she could use a 386 w maths co. type m/b and i may have found a donor, try http://us.f608.mail.yahoo.com/ym/Compose?&To=davesrpg-owner@yahoogroups.com hope thats the right guy, my old m/b is a 486 at w/o cache chips or is that ram in dip slots, hope not, that would b really old. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢ --0-622266112-1082706730=:41161 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
No, your behavior was fine Rick.
   Suppossedly that old monitor had just been working before going outside 2 nights ago at bernardo and parkington, i think it just missed the rain and its smaller than what weve been using on ricks table but i wont grab it since i can't store it; unless someone tells me to.
    as for the rest of my message, sorry about sending 2wrong place but i didn't save original message and can't post it here.
   somewhere on the Yoper site they asked for 500m swap, i figured they might not need it since they seem a modified Red Hat but maybe they do and the bit about debugging a hex dump occasionally means you do want more swap than ram. somewhere i saw recommendation for 1024m swap as a new general number but i plan on less than that, for someone even newer than me choosing a window environment i've looked and like what i see and read about Kahakai as it seems 2b a 50% bigger fluxbox that accomodates the gnome stuff better. Since my box beats a 166 pentium by lots, i ccan host more wm/gui than fluxbox but often just the Kde stuff should give good readable results, it seems to want more resources than the others and lots of other mangers exist with their own charms.[the fancy transparent alpha blending, skinning etc. seemed to help readability not! other users of this box suffers impaired eyesight so while i still want the fancy stuff, i won't use it much, the python scripting made the final difference 4me and we'll see how it goes in practice for this ex-Amigan ,  / amigoid.]
   Motherboards: HEATHER told me she could use a 386 w maths co. type m/b and i may have found a donor, try http://us.f608.mail.yahoo.com/ym/Compose?&To=davesrpg-owner@yahoogroups.com
hope thats the right guy, my old m/b is a 486 at w/o cache chips or is that ram in dip slots, hope not, that would b really old.

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢ --0-622266112-1082706730=:41161-- From rick@linuxmafia.com Fri Apr 23 15:59:52 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.30 #1) id 1BH9eC-0007RD-79 by authid for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 15:59:52 -0700 Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 15:59:52 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20040423225952.GH19884@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Subject: [conspire] For tomorrow's CABAL meeting X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 22:59:52 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1473 Lines: 31 I've downloaded a few goodies I'd like to try out: MandrakeLinux 1.0 Community, i586 (3 CDs). This is one of the most popular "desktop" distributions, providing a 2.6.3 kernel, automated printer setup, NTFS resizing, etc. Note that this is NOT the 10.0 Official CD set (4 CDs), which just came out and is hard to find. (Official is Community plus bugfixes and some extra goodies.) Kanotix "Bug Hunter" 04/2004 release (1 CD). This is a live CD based on Knoppix, but with an advanced kernel, i586 optimisation, KDE 3.2.2, OpenOffice.org 1.1.1, Captive NTFS 1.1.5 (uses NT's own DLLs for _full_ read/write NTFS access), and so on. Like Knoppix, it can optionally be installed to one's hard drive. It's based closely on Debian "unstable", and so is a bit more cutting-edge than Knoppix. MEPIS Oct. 2003 edition (2 CDs). A fully loaded desktop distribution based on Knoppix. Again, there's an option to install to HD. Extremely polished -- said to rival Xandros 2.0 in that department. KDE-based, with icewm as an alternative. (A 2004-04-05 beta on one CD is also available.) The lead developer says that in the future there will be two editions, ProMEPIS, a leading-edge version for enthusiasts, and SimplyMEPIS for home/SOHO/office users. I'm just about to burn a copy of MandrakeLinux. The other two I may or may not burn to CD right away (unless someone speaks up and says "I want to try that"). From rick@linuxmafia.com Fri Apr 23 16:01:18 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.30 #1) id 1BH9fZ-0007TB-Vb by authid for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 16:01:17 -0700 Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 16:01:17 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] For tomorrow's CABAL meeting Message-ID: <20040423230117.GI19884@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <20040423225952.GH19884@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040423225952.GH19884@linuxmafia.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 23:01:18 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 470 Lines: 14 Quoting myself: > I've downloaded a few goodies I'd like to try out: > > MandrakeLinux 1.0 Community, i586 (3 CDs). This is one of the most popular ^^^ > "desktop" distributions, providing a 2.6.3 kernel, automated printer > setup, NTFS resizing, etc. Note that this is NOT the 10.0 Official > CD set (4 CDs), which just came out and is hard to find. (Official > is Community plus bugfixes and some extra goodies.) Should be "10.0". From bill@billsaysthis.com Fri Apr 23 17:51:26 2004 Received: from self.phpwebhosting.com ([64.65.61.215]:3433) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.30 #1) id 1BHBO4-00086D-6D for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:51:20 -0700 Received: (qmail 30536 invoked by uid 508); 24 Apr 2004 00:45:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO littlesteven) (24.6.172.56) by self.phpwebhosting.com with SMTP; 24 Apr 2004 00:45:12 -0000 From: "Bill Lazar" To: Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:51:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Thread-Index: AcQpheFEfp/xTXMSS72jxoGPJpa2egAEEJSQ In-Reply-To: <20040423225952.GH19884@linuxmafia.com> X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: bill@billsaysthis.com Subject: RE: [conspire] For tomorrow's CABAL meeting Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 00:51:26 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1979 Lines: 49 Just curious, but why are these distros of interest to you and what do you mean by try out at the meeting? -----Original Message----- From: conspire-bounces@linuxmafia.com [mailto:conspire-bounces@linuxmafia.com] On Behalf Of Rick Moen Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 4:00 PM To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: [conspire] For tomorrow's CABAL meeting I've downloaded a few goodies I'd like to try out: MandrakeLinux 1.0 Community, i586 (3 CDs). This is one of the most popular "desktop" distributions, providing a 2.6.3 kernel, automated printer setup, NTFS resizing, etc. Note that this is NOT the 10.0 Official CD set (4 CDs), which just came out and is hard to find. (Official is Community plus bugfixes and some extra goodies.) Kanotix "Bug Hunter" 04/2004 release (1 CD). This is a live CD based on Knoppix, but with an advanced kernel, i586 optimisation, KDE 3.2.2, OpenOffice.org 1.1.1, Captive NTFS 1.1.5 (uses NT's own DLLs for _full_ read/write NTFS access), and so on. Like Knoppix, it can optionally be installed to one's hard drive. It's based closely on Debian "unstable", and so is a bit more cutting-edge than Knoppix. MEPIS Oct. 2003 edition (2 CDs). A fully loaded desktop distribution based on Knoppix. Again, there's an option to install to HD. Extremely polished -- said to rival Xandros 2.0 in that department. KDE-based, with icewm as an alternative. (A 2004-04-05 beta on one CD is also available.) The lead developer says that in the future there will be two editions, ProMEPIS, a leading-edge version for enthusiasts, and SimplyMEPIS for home/SOHO/office users. I'm just about to burn a copy of MandrakeLinux. The other two I may or may not burn to CD right away (unless someone speaks up and says "I want to try that"). _______________________________________________ conspire mailing list conspire@linuxmafia.com http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire From deirdre@deirdre.net Fri Apr 23 17:56:06 2004 Received: from emperor.deirdre.org ([198.144.195.190]:43914) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30 #1) id 1BHBSa-00088v-HO for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:56:00 -0700 Received: from emperor.deirdre.org (deirdre@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by emperor.deirdre.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Debian-7) with ESMTP id i3O0w3me014672 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:58:03 -0700 Received: from localhost (deirdre@localhost) by emperor.deirdre.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Debian-7) with ESMTP id i3O0w3Ol014668; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:58:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: emperor.deirdre.org: deirdre owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:58:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Deirdre Saoirse Moen X-X-Sender: To: Bill Lazar In-Reply-To: <200404240051.RAA25754@mercury.he.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: deirdre@deirdre.net Subject: RE: [conspire] For tomorrow's CABAL meeting Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 00:56:07 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 700 Lines: 20 On Fri, 23 Apr 2004, Bill Lazar wrote: > Just curious, but why are these distros of interest to you and what do you > mean by try out at the meeting? Well, Rick likes all things Linux and wants to know what they all do. He might blow away one of the machines in the kitchen and re-configure it. Or not. One of the machines had been played with too much, so this is a good opportunity to Mandrake-ify it, methinks. -- _Deirdre http://deirdre.net "Ideally pacing should look like the stock market for the year 1999, up and up and up, but with lots of little dips downwards...." -- Wen Spencer on plotting a novel From rick@linuxmafia.com Fri Apr 23 18:02:08 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.30 #1) id 1BHBYV-0008Gg-RF by authid for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 18:02:07 -0700 Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 18:02:07 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] For tomorrow's CABAL meeting Message-ID: <20040424010207.GJ19884@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 01:02:08 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1101 Lines: 28 Quoting Bill Lazar (bill@billsaysthis.com): > Just curious, but why are these distros of interest to you and what do you > mean by try out at the meeting? Good question! 1. Several distributions have been claiming to be unprecedentedly easy for new users, and to be cutting edge at the same time. I'd like to see that for myself -- especially given that many of the recent ones run entirely from CD by default (a la Knoppix). 2. One of the things CABAL has always been known for is having installable copies of popular Linux distributions on hand (and the means to make copies for people). So, I try to guess in advance what people will be interested in, and have it around. 3. I'm especially interested in distributions with advanced installation kernels, especially 2.6 ones -- mostly on account of support for very new hardware, such as Serial ATA. If someone were to show up on Saturday and ask for help with Mandrake 10.0 (without bringing a copy), we'd be up a creek without a paddle, because of the very long download times. And I _do_ expect some significant interest in that. From rick@linuxmafia.com Fri Apr 23 20:36:26 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.30 #1) id 1BHDxq-0000gj-QE by authid for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 20:36:26 -0700 Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 20:36:26 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20040424033626.GA2634@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Subject: [conspire] (forw) Re: do I need to bring a monitor and keyboard to CABAL tomorrow X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 03:36:27 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1084 Lines: 36 Of possible interest. ----- Forwarded message from rick ----- Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 20:35:25 -0700 To: [elided] Subject: Re: do I need to bring a monitor and keyboard to CABAL tomorrow Quoting [name elided]: > I hope to bring a CPU to the CABAL meeting tomorrow for Debian > installation. Do I also need to bring a monitor and keyboard? > - Josh GReenland We have spare keyboards (PS/2-type and ancient AT-type, but not USB). We have three available 17" VGA-compatible monitors. You can use one. However.... After setting up Debian and then X11 (graphics) using my monitor, your system may not be able to produce useful X11 video output on _your_ monitor. This _probably_ won't be a problem, but it could be. In extreme cases (which have become very unlikely since circa-1992 monitor production), the X11 setup you create using my monitor could send your monitor a signal that damages it. This is why we suggest that people _do_ bring their monitors. The outcomes I mention are unlikely, but possible. Anyhow, please do come! ----- End forwarded message ----- From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Sat Apr 24 13:14:04 2004 Received: from web60809.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.72]:37342) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.30 #1) id 1BHTX1-0007Pv-Cp for ; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 13:13:48 -0700 Message-ID: <20040424201330.516.qmail@web60809.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.186.120] by web60809.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 13:13:30 PDT Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 13:13:30 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1003130291-1082837610=:162" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Subject: [conspire] distributions X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 20:14:04 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1825 Lines: 18 --0-1003130291-1082837610=:162 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii testing the old knoppix distro just gives bad lines all over the screen, so i need to try something anyway on my 140G barrier drive w osl2000 working, will try to give you some more partitions from ranish, won't try to bring my 17" since its older and larger and table-space is finite. wanna fix some little w98 issues first but all should work out fine, those r ok distro's to test on my box, will bring a few cd's, incl. >= 1 cdrw of 2x speed. gotta get w98 resolution fixed again it does not seem to like this nic + ext. +int. modems business. may try to bring printer and 5-pack of beer, i dislike corona less than other brands i've tried. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢ --0-1003130291-1082837610=:162 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
testing the old knoppix distro just gives bad lines all over the screen, so i need to try something anyway on my 140G barrier drive w osl2000 working, will try to  give you some more partitions from ranish, won't try to bring my 17" since its older and larger and table-space is finite. wanna fix some little w98 issues first but all should work out fine, those r ok distro's to test on my box, will bring a few cd's, incl. >= 1 cdrw of 2x speed. gotta get w98 resolution fixed again it does not seem to like this nic + ext. +int. modems business. may try to bring printer and 5-pack of beer, i dislike corona less than other brands i've tried.

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Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢ --0-1003130291-1082837610=:162-- From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Tue May 04 00:52:38 2004 Received: from web60805.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.68]:30870) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.30 #1) id 1BKuj9-0004tT-Lf for ; Tue, 04 May 2004 00:52:31 -0700 Message-ID: <20040504075228.85510.qmail@web60805.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.186.113] by web60805.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 04 May 2004 00:52:28 PDT Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 00:52:28 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-817489738-1083657148=:85073" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_10,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Subject: [conspire] meeting the eigth X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 07:52:38 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 815 Lines: 16 --0-817489738-1083657148=:85073 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Daniel told me he has a prior engagement, and I do too. So don't save space anywhere just because I've been showing up. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs --0-817489738-1083657148=:85073 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Daniel told me he has a prior engagement, and I do too. So don't save space anywhere just because I've been showing up.

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Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs --0-817489738-1083657148=:85073-- From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Thu May 06 00:56:45 2004 Received: from web60801.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.64]:36429) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.30 #1) id 1BLdkD-0001cI-WD for ; Thu, 06 May 2004 00:56:38 -0700 Message-ID: <20040506075639.18019.qmail@web60801.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.186.12] by web60801.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 06 May 2004 00:56:39 PDT Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 00:56:39 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-188960565-1083830199=:17203" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Subject: [conspire] OOps X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 07:56:45 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1154 Lines: 17 --0-188960565-1083830199=:17203 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Nice seeing u at svlug Rick, expect to make CABAL LINUX meeting on sat. 8th, 3 people in my occasional Sat. game have I.M. and 2 of us don't so we get stale news and i got home from svlug W. night to 12 messages including an apparent cancel notice from them. Guess I'll copy this to Dave W. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs --0-188960565-1083830199=:17203 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Nice seeing u at svlug Rick, expect to make CABAL LINUX meeting on sat. 8th, 3 people in my occasional Sat. game have I.M. and 2 of us don't so we get stale news and i got home from svlug W. night to 12 messages including an apparent cancel notice from them. Guess I'll copy this to Dave W.

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Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs --0-188960565-1083830199=:17203-- From mailjones@mouseandfrog.org Fri May 07 18:01:34 2004 Received: from sitemail3.everyone.net ([216.200.145.37]:49088 helo=omta12.mta.everyone.net) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30 #1) id 1BMGDY-0005T7-Jq for ; Fri, 07 May 2004 18:01:28 -0700 Received: from pmta11.mta.everyone.net (bigip34 [216.200.145.26]) by omta12.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F077246EF6 for ; Fri, 7 May 2004 18:01:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Eon-Sig: AQGPR4FAnDFirKiY+wIAAAAB,2b358d9850991703579c0fe4cbe783f9 Received: from SFSEANW2.mouseandfrog.org (205.132.173.199 [205.132.173.199]) by pmta11.mta.everyone.net (EON-AUTHRELAY) with ESMTP id 954C4806; Fri, 7 May 2004 18:01:22 -0700 Message-Id: <5.1.1.6.0.20040507175827.00a73f80@pop.everyone.net> X-Sender: mailjones@mouseandfrog.org@pop.everyone.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 18:01:21 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com From: Sean Wolfe-Justice Mime-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mailjones@mouseandfrog.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Subject: [conspire] sysadmin position in SF (Yes, I checked with listadmin!) X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 01:01:34 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 3032 Lines: 103 Hello all, Sean here, long time lurker, infrequent poster. Hope all is well with everybody. For those who are interested, my company has an opening for a *nix sysadmin and we are fishing for resumes. Please feel free to look this over and if you're interested send an email to techjobs@ticketmaster.com. Thanks, and have a great weekend! Cheers, -Sean. ----------------- Title: System Administrator Location: San Francisco, California Company: TicketWeb How to Apply: Send resume to techjobs@ticketmaster.com with "SA-TW3" in the subject of your email. General Characteristics: Guided by the IS manager you will support and maintain our computerized ticketing system to help us to achieve our goals of 99.99% uptime! In this position, you will have the unique ability to work with a number of servers applications, services, and OS's. The description below includes the services that you will be exposed to and have responsibility for. The team shares support responsibilities in this 24 x 7 environment. Essential Functions: * 24x7 system support and on-call duties (alternating with other team members) * Support of application servers * Support of credit card processing systems * Support of database servers * Support of database proxy server * Support of documentation web server * Support of DNS servers * Support of file servers * Support of firewalls * Support of FreeBSD and RedHat servers * Support of load balancer * Support of mail servers * Support of PBX server * Support of RAS * Support of search server * Support of Oracle database * Support of network connectivity * Troubleshooting system problems (technical and operational) * Interface with vendor and client representatives for problem resolution * Managing server log files * Monitor system performance * Maintaining utility software (proprietary, backup) * Provide technical and operational support for TicketWeb staff members * Purchasing of new equipment Required Experience: * 3+ years experience with maintaining Internet systems * 2+ years experience with installing Unix operating systems * Solid understanding of Unix/Windows user commands * Solid understanding of Unix/Windows network support * Solid understanding of shell and/or Perl scripting (for automation). * Good understanding of Oracle installation, backup, maintenance, performance tuning * Good understanding of SQL * Demonstrated problem analysis/resolution Skills Desired Experience: * Network configuration (security, routers, email/file servers, DNS, firewall) * FreeBSD * RedHat Linux * e-commerce * File server and workstation installation, configuration and maintenance * JBoss * Nagios * Active Directory Personal Characteristics: * Ability to work independently and as part of a team * Self motivated, energetic and tenacious * Flexible; responsive to changing situations * Desire to learn Submit Resumes to: techjobs@ticketmaster.com (again, please put "SA-TW3" in your email subject). Thank you. From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue May 18 09:03:53 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BQ74L-0003Nv-D3 by authid for ; Tue, 18 May 2004 09:03:53 -0700 Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 09:03:53 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20040518160353.GH28986@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Subject: [conspire] Fedora Core2 is out X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 16:03:53 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1073 Lines: 26 ...and I already have it (i386 version via BitTorrent, http://kuix.de/fedora/). Remember, if you visit a CABAL meeting, and either 1. bring your own CDR blanks, 2. buy some nearby (e.g., Palo Alto Fry's Electronics), or 3. are prepared to pay my outrageous price of $1 per disk to sponge off my supply, then, you're welcome to make copies at my place, using my slow (4x) CDR burner. Or you can connect -your- machine to our LAN and burn them on your own burner, somewhere. There are four CDs in the main set, of which the fourth is non-English language support only, and can be dispensed with if you don't need that. Additionally, there is "boot.iso" and a rescue CD image. I also pulled down (courtesy of BitTorrent) the 4 GB DVD image, but don't personally have a DVD burner. You can use Fedora2's "anaconda" installer program to upgrade earlier Fedora installers. The installer program also does network installs (NFS, http, etc.), so it's not technically necessary to download the entire distribution, if you merely wish to do one installation. From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue May 18 09:55:56 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BQ7si-0003bU-MM by authid for ; Tue, 18 May 2004 09:55:56 -0700 Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 09:55:56 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Fedora Core2 is out Message-ID: <20040518165556.GI12221@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <20040518160353.GH28986@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040518160353.GH28986@linuxmafia.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 16:55:57 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 181 Lines: 9 Correcting my post, in case I confused anyone: > You can use Fedora2's "anaconda" installer program to upgrade earlier > Fedora installers. ^^^^^^^^^^ "installations". From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Thu May 20 12:48:05 2004 Received: from web60810.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.73]:21792) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BQtWJ-000239-Vo for ; Thu, 20 May 2004 12:48:05 -0700 Message-ID: <20040520194758.54650.qmail@web60810.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.187.17] by web60810.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 20 May 2004 12:47:58 PDT Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 12:47:58 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-558331485-1085082478=:54094" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Subject: [conspire] Re: conspire Digest, Vol 12, Issue 3 X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 19:48:06 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1995 Lines: 16 --0-558331485-1085082478=:54094 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I plan to attend the next CABAL and would like to get a 686 reiser english desktop distribution working on my rig including dialup, my debian/knoppix/gnu/linux partition will dial up but my users will need bigger fonts all round and as an amigoid i want more responsiveness gobo linux looks iffy since getting help from linux gurus works less well w/o traditional file structure fixiing dial up on the yoper partition looked good but lack of mtools and dial up leaves it stranded plus i gotta change its resolution. Gentoo suffers from too long compile times, i need to abandon it for now. I'd love to have an al-amlug live cd of arch linux image available so i can go that route and have made a partition for it or some other deserving distro. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70/year --0-558331485-1085082478=:54094 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
I plan to attend the next CABAL and would like to get a 686 reiser english desktop distribution working on my rig including dialup, my debian/knoppix/gnu/linux partition will dial up but my users will need bigger fonts all round and as an amigoid i want more responsiveness gobo linux looks iffy since getting help from linux gurus works less well w/o traditional file structure fixiing dial up on the yoper partition looked good but lack of mtools and dial up leaves it stranded plus i gotta change its resolution. Gentoo suffers from too long compile times, i need to abandon it for now. I'd love to have an al-amlug live cd of arch linux image available so i can go that route and have made a partition for it or some other deserving distro.

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Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70/year --0-558331485-1085082478=:54094-- From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu May 20 15:08:19 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BQvi7-0002pR-0d by authid for ; Thu, 20 May 2004 15:08:19 -0700 Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 15:08:18 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: conspire Digest, Vol 12, Issue 3 Message-ID: <20040520220818.GE23196@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <20040520194758.54650.qmail@web60810.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040520194758.54650.qmail@web60810.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 22:08:19 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 3172 Lines: 73 Quoting bruce coston (jane_ikari@yahoo.com): > I plan to attend the next CABAL and would like to get a 686 reiser > english desktop distribution working on my rig including dialup, my > debian/knoppix/gnu/linux partition will dial up but my users will need > bigger fonts all round and as an amigoid i want more > responsiveness.... Addressing the "responsiveness" matter will probably hinge on figuring out what resource is bottlenecked on your system, and why. I'm not really enough of a desktop guy to help much with "bigger fonts", but maybe others will have suggestions. > gobo linux looks iffy since getting help from linux gurus works less > well w/o traditional file structure Right. To explain, GoboLinux (http://www.gobolinux.org/) is from a guy who considered the standard Unix file tree (/etc, /usr, /bin, etc.) and so decided to build his with a radically restructured hierarchy, where all files belonging to each program go into a ghetto of its own under /Programs , e.g., "/Programs/WordPerfect/8.1/bin/xwp" and so on. _However_, it also has a veritable forest of symbolic links so that things are also findable in their traditional locations, e.g., /usr/bin/xwp -> /Programs/WordPerfect/8.1/bin/xwp Other parts of the system also get similar treatment. E.g., what would ordinarily be users' home directories is handled by an anything-goes tree called /Depot , and all shared files (fonts, plugins, etc.) go under /Files. There is probably a very heavy performance hit from all of those symlinks, not to mention the mess it makes. GoboLinux serves, if nothing else, as proof that nothing stops you from building and maintaining a Linux distribution to embody your own weird-ass theories and practices, no matter how bizarre. I wouldn't want to use it, but, hey, difference of view are what makes horse races. > fixiing dial up on the yoper partition looked good but lack of mtools > and dial up leaves it stranded plus i gotta change its resolution. mtools should be easy to retrofit onto any distribution. It's tiny enough, and enough of a standalone package (no dependencies to speak of) that you could just grab the source tarball and compile that sucker into /usr/local . http://mtools.linux.lu/download.html As you know, I'm a bit out of the loop on dial-up tools. The KDE "kppp" tool (graphical) is nice unto being completely foolproof, and so might be a fine solution for you. On Debian, the ncurses-based ppp-config script serves well. And a lot of people seem to like WvDial (http://open.nit.ca/wiki/?page=WvDial). > Gentoo suffers from too long compile times, i need to abandon it for now. I am shocked, _shocked_. ;-> > I'd love to have an al-amlug live cd of arch linux image available so > i can go that route and have made a partition for it or some other > deserving distro. OK, pulling down the ISO, now. Web page is at http://amlug.net/new-projects/live-cd/al-amlug-live-cd.html . Seems nice. -- Cheers, No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. Rick Moen We do concede, though, that a large number of electrons rick@linuxmafia.com were terribly inconvenienced. From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Thu May 27 19:03:28 2004 Received: from web60808.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.71]:42053) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BTWiO-0007yu-TC for ; Thu, 27 May 2004 19:03:28 -0700 Message-ID: <20040528020319.36340.qmail@web60808.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.186.115] by web60808.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 27 May 2004 19:03:19 PDT Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 19:03:19 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1347357066-1085709799=:36329" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_10,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Subject: [conspire] filesystem recovery X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 02:03:28 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 952 Lines: 20 --0-1347357066-1085709799=:36329 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii thanks rick, will try 2get my addresses straight again despite = in middle of w98 failure again. How do i make my ext3 3 again not 2? got both printers working a role ea. fine on lpt1:, something0, and usb. sound etc. next. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger --0-1347357066-1085709799=:36329 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
thanks rick, will try 2get my addresses straight again despite = in middle of w98 failure again.
     How do i make my ext3 3 again not 2?
got both printers working a role ea. fine on lpt1:, something0, and usb. sound etc. next.

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Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger --0-1347357066-1085709799=:36329-- From ixian@idiom.com Sat May 29 17:45:02 2004 Received: from idiom.com ([216.240.32.1]:3517) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BUERb-0002hR-B5 for ; Sat, 29 May 2004 17:45:02 -0700 Received: from idiom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by idiom.com (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4U0ipn5097800; Sat, 29 May 2004 17:44:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ixian@idiom.com) Received: (from ixian@localhost) by idiom.com (8.12.9p2/8.12.9/Submit) id i4U0ip6H097797; Sat, 29 May 2004 17:44:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ixian) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 17:44:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200405300044.i4U0ip6H097797@idiom.com> From: Eric De Mund To: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Humans-Reply-To: Eric De Mund X-Fax: 240.282.4443 X-URL: X-Mailer: GNU Emacs 21.2.1 (i386--freebsd) X-POM: The Moon is Waxing Gibbous (78% of Full) Organization: Ixian Systems, Inc. X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: ixian@idiom.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Subject: [conspire] can grep(1) print matching pattern rather than matching line? X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eric De Mund List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 00:45:02 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1934 Lines: 65 Ladies and gentlemen, ------------------------------ QUESTION How can I have grep(1) print out the matching pattern in a line rather than that matching pattern's entire line? ------------------------------ BACKGROUND I'm getting a lot of spam that's not getting caught by SpamAssassin. Fortunately, the lion's share of that spam is addressed to the likes of: foo@ixian.com bar@ixian.com baz@ixian.com quux@ixian.com I'd like to grep(1) through my (plaintext) VM INBOX file for all instances of "@ixian.com" and print out not the lines that contain "@ixian.com" but the matching patterns themselves, such as above. I plan to take all of the above addresses and put them into my .procmailrc file, for routing qualifying emails straight into the bitbucket. Why don't I simply only retain email to: ead@ixian.com ead-*@ixian.com , you ask? Well, because there are several other valid "@ixian.com" email addresses besides hostmaster@ and postmaster@, that I both don't recall at the moment, and, too, I'm not sure I could ever create a list I'd be comfortable considering complete and definitive, for the purposes of routing everything else into the bitbucket, sight unseen. For simplicity's sake, I don't mind if this solution takes a line such as: foo@ixian.com grow your automobile by 3 inches, naturally bar@ixian.com and only returns: foo@ixian.com rather than: foo@ixian.com bar@ixian.com ------------------------------ Is this possible? Or need I turn to perl(1) or python(1) for this? Much obliged for any pointers. Regards, Eric -- "All morning I worked on the proof of one of my poems, and took out a comma; in the afternoon I put it back." --Oscar Wilde Eric De Mund | Ixian Systems, Inc. | cell: 650.303.4336 email: | 650 Castro St, #120-210 | fax: 240.282.4443 http://www.ixian.com/ead/ | Mountain View, CA 94041 | Y!IM: ead0002 From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Jun 01 16:21:36 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BVIZc-0004Hi-25 by authid for ; Tue, 01 Jun 2004 16:21:36 -0700 Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 16:21:36 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] filesystem recovery Message-ID: <20040601232135.GP12051@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <20040528020319.36340.qmail@web60808.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040528020319.36340.qmail@web60808.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 23:21:36 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 5370 Lines: 120 Quoting bruce coston (jane_ikari@yahoo.com): > thanks rick, will try 2get my addresses straight again despite = in middle of w98 failure again. > How do i make my ext3 3 again not 2? Hi, Bruce. Sorry to have not replied for a few days: I've been busy the last five days running an annual science-fiction convention in San Jose. The above leaves a little unclear what your situation is: Either you are seeking to create filesystems in currently empty hard drive space (or drive space you intend to make _become_ empty) and wish to know how to create partitions as type ext3 rather than ext2, _or_ you are asking how to convert existing ext2 partitions to ext3. Those are different, though related, problems. 1. To create an ext3 partition directly, simply use the appropriate "mkfs" (make filesystem) utility. I'll explain. On many Linux systems, the family of "mkfs" utilities are all named "mkfs.[foo]", where [foo] is the particular type of formatting you wish to use. For example: mkfs.ext3 for ext3 mkfs.ext2 for ext2 mkfs.minix for the Minix format mkfs.cramfs for the cramfs format Sometimes, one or two of those utilities will have names that don't quite fit the pattern, e.g., "mkreiserfs" for the Reiser filesystem. Some other Linux systems will use slightly different names for the ext2 and ext3 utilities, such as "mke2fs" and "mke3fs" (respectively). Or both sets of names are sometimes present. Bottom line: Because the names are various but all start with the letters "mk", you should make life simple by (while logged in as the root user) typing "mk" and hitting the tab key, to see all the candidates. Additional observation: Usually, mkfs.ext3, mkfs.ext2, mke3fs, and mke2fs (however many of them you have) are in fact all the same utility under different names: Some of them are just front-end wrapper scripts for the underlying ext2/ext3-creation code. Thus, the ext3 variants are just the ext2 utility, run with an extra command-line parameter of "-J", meaning "please create a journal". In case it wasn't obvious, ext3 is just the plain old ext2 filesystem, with an added journal-file feature. When (by whatever means) one creates a journal on an ext2 filesystem, it is created in the filesystem's root directory as filename ".journal". Most ways of creating the journal cause the file's existence to be hidden at mount time -- a good thing. But don't fret if you end up with a visible .journal file. There's nothing wrong with that. It's just a tiny bit untidy to see something that's more properly hidden from view as part of the plumbing. 2. To add a journal to an existing ext2 filesystem (and thereby convert it into ext3): First, unmount the filesystem. That, in turn, you can really do (in most cases) only if you aren't booted from that disk, so this task is best done by booting a Linux maintenance CDR or floppy. Then, run "tune2fs -J /dev/hda" (or whatever's appropriate in place of hda). The "-J", again, means "please create a journal". Last, you would want to edit /etc/fstab (the "filesystem table" file) to ensure that the filesystem gets mounted as type ext3 rather than ext2. (Any ext3 filesystem _can_ be mounted as type ext2, but then you're deliberately ignoring the journal file, in which case why bother to have one?) In the case of my own server, I didn't bother to read any documentation before converting it from ext2 to ext3, so I ended up having a visible ".journal" file in each filesystem's top directory. For example: :r! ls -al / total 16509 drwxr-xr-x 18 root root 4096 2004-03-14 11:43 . drwxr-xr-x 18 root root 4096 2004-03-14 11:43 .. drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 2004-03-14 11:52 bin drwxr-xr-x 3 root root 1024 2004-03-14 23:09 boot drwxr-xr-x 6 root root 20480 2004-03-28 06:47 dev drwxr-xr-x 97 root root 8192 2004-05-20 15:38 etc drwxr-sr-x 13 root staff 4096 2004-03-24 02:06 home drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 2001-04-14 17:45 initrd -rw------- 1 root root 16777216 2002-12-16 12:38 .journal drwxr-xr-x 7 root root 8192 2004-03-14 11:49 lib drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 16384 2001-05-30 04:57 lost+found drwxr-xr-x 6 root root 4096 2001-05-30 11:17 mnt lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 14 2003-11-11 21:38 opt -> /usr/local/opt dr-xr-xr-x 112 root root 0 2004-01-10 11:47 proc drwxr-xr-x 11 root root 4096 2004-06-01 06:34 root drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 2004-03-14 11:52 sbin drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 2004-01-20 09:28 sys drwxrwxrwt 5 root root 8192 2004-06-01 16:02 tmp drwxr-xr-x 13 root root 4096 2003-10-12 16:38 usr drwxr-xr-x 16 root root 4096 2003-10-21 01:39 var That was kind of dumb of me (albeit harmless). I can and should correct the error, but I've never had a good occasion to take my system down in order to fix it. > got both printers working a role ea. fine on lpt1:, something0, and > usb. sound etc. next. Good going! -- Cheers, The cynics among us might say: "We laugh, Rick Moen monkeyboys -- Linux IS the mainstream UNIX now! rick@linuxmafia.com MuaHaHaHa!" but that would be rude. -- Jim Dennis From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Wed Jun 02 20:56:01 2004 Received: from web60807.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.70]:20237) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BVjKc-0003wf-HT for ; Wed, 02 Jun 2004 20:56:01 -0700 Message-ID: <20040603035552.83023.qmail@web60807.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.187.17] by web60807.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 02 Jun 2004 20:55:52 PDT Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 20:55:52 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: Randall Abel , barlow , conspire@linuxmafia.com, davesrpg group , sam michlin , nelwyn RIAN , stan smith MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Cc: Subject: [conspire] sound on mandrake X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 03:56:01 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 314 Lines: 13 Finally, thanx2 D.Fox, got sound working w tom's 2.6.5 kernel on mandrake, my 5th linux distro still on drive won't need 2 replace my opti 82c929 isa card, can test DVD's now! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Jun 03 12:04:29 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BVxVt-0007x6-Au by authid ; Thu, 03 Jun 2004 12:04:29 -0700 Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 12:04:29 -0700 To: Laurence Miotto Message-ID: <20040603190429.GE8293@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: Laurence Miotto , conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <350C0418-B4B8-11D8-A76D-000A9585DF1C@sbcglobal.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <350C0418-B4B8-11D8-A76D-000A9585DF1C@sbcglobal.net> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: [conspire] Re: I'd like to do an install. X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 19:04:30 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1998 Lines: 47 Quoting Laurence Miotto (ldmiotto@sbcglobal.net): > I'd like to install Linux on my laptop, but after several road-blocks, > I've decided to seek help. Hi, Laurence. I'm writing back even though I'm short on time this morning. Apologies if this seems rushed, but it is indeed rushed. ;-> (Also, I hope you don't mind my Ccing the mailing list.) > First a little bit about me: I am a high-school student who lives in > Menlo Park. Ah, probably pretty close to our house, where CABAL meets. We're in west Menlo Park, just off Alameda de las Pulgas. [...] > Now about my equipment: Macs. Lots of macs. And they all have trouble > with linux. But what I really want to put Linux on is my iBook. I have > installed it before, but X windows never quite works. While Mac OS X, > and all of its unixy goodness, works for me, I'd like to get more > versed in the ways of Linux. > > Am I eligible? I have the PPC versions of Mandrake and Yellow Dog, and > I intend to get Fedora PPC. Naturally, you're eligible. There are several people who attend our meetings who have experience with Linux on Macs. We typically have at least one PPC distribution around, but aren't always up to date -- which is, as you can imagine, often important. So, if you can bring installation media, that would be helpful. Alternatively, with sufficient advance notice, I can download CD images and burn them prior to a meeting. Please note: I found out just two days ago that I'll need to be at a conflicting event on what would otherwise be the next CABAL meeting date, Saturday, June 12. So, that meeting has been cancelled, and is so noted on the CABAL Web page. The next meeting after that will be Saturday, June 26 -- unless there's significant demand expressed on the mailing list for a Sunday meeting (e.g., Sunday, June 13). -- Cheers, Before enlightenment, caffeine. Rick Moen After enlightenment, caffeine. rick@linuxmafia.com From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Fri Jun 04 18:24:27 2004 Received: from web60808.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.71]:41310) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BWPv3-0007dC-6w for ; Fri, 04 Jun 2004 18:24:27 -0700 Message-ID: <20040605012423.87178.qmail@web60808.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.187.8] by web60808.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 04 Jun 2004 18:24:23 PDT Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 18:24:23 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: Randall Abel , barlow , conspire@linuxmafia.com, davesrpg group , david fox , William Hamel , sam michlin , stan smith MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Cc: Subject: [conspire] Sun. X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 01:24:27 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 352 Lines: 13 will b gone all day, could do emerge xfree86 kde on my gentoo partition if a dhcp net connect is avail 4 my nic. would like 2 try some gentoo but long compile prevents me from getting modem mode working on that os. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Mon Jun 07 12:27:44 2004 Received: from web60805.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.68]:47238) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BXPmT-0007Jq-Fk for ; Mon, 07 Jun 2004 12:27:43 -0700 Message-ID: <20040607192736.42242.qmail@web60805.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.186.27] by web60805.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 07 Jun 2004 12:27:36 PDT Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 12:27:36 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: Randall Abel , barlow , conspire@linuxmafia.com, davesrpg group , david fox , sam michlin , stan smith MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Cc: Subject: [conspire] wanna connect soon X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 19:27:44 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 891 Lines: 25 got my amlug cd 2 work despite gouge on bottom and multi-booted in2 an arch distro last night, looks very promising but need to avoid a daemontools bug and update the install at > 2kbps with many disconnects, ie my isp lately. Also want 2 get the part/s that work best on my os's working toghether, ie the latest foomatic not just on my knoppix, the sound stuff working beyond just my mandrake, OOo 1.1.1 on my linux'es as on my w98 and arch looks like its pacman system handles apps well. Mandrake seems 2 handle permissions best. Reiser on Yoper flawlessly reproduces the aftermath of a k browser crash on boot, hopefully an update will clear that out but lo priority. Hey, does Ross or someone live here in sunnyvale. Happy Geeking, Bruce __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From rick@linuxmafia.com Mon Jun 07 16:13:00 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BXTIZ-0008WE-SN by authid for ; Mon, 07 Jun 2004 16:12:59 -0700 Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 16:12:59 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] wanna connect soon Message-ID: <20040607231259.GJ12051@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <20040607192736.42242.qmail@web60805.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040607192736.42242.qmail@web60805.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 23:13:00 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1301 Lines: 30 Quoting bruce coston (jane_ikari@yahoo.com): > got my amlug cd 2 work despite gouge on bottom and > multi-booted in2 an arch distro last night, looks very > promising but need to avoid a daemontools bug and > update the install at > 2kbps with many disconnects, > ie my isp lately. Daemontools? D.J. Bernstein's proprietary service-management toolkit? {shudder} Better you than me. ;-> http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/index.php?page=warez#djb If you're asking about coming over to Chez Moen and using the Internet connection, we're cool with that during many (not all) weekday evenings assuming prior arrangement. Tonight, for example, would not be a good evening for that, because Deirdre and I will be out. But you're always welcome to send me e-mail the morning or early afternoon of some other day, to ask if it'd be convenient. (_That_ sort of e-mail should be sent to rick@linuxmafia.com, i.e., to me personally, rather than to conspire@linuxmafia.com, since it's not of interest to CABAL as a whole.) As mentioned previously, I have been unfortunately obliged to cancel the regular CABAL meeting that normally would have occurred this coming Saturday, June 12 -- on account of a conflicting obligation that (again) will have me and Deirdre away from the house. Sorry about that. From rick@linuxmafia.com Mon Jun 07 16:16:13 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BXTLh-000067-H3 by authid for ; Mon, 07 Jun 2004 16:16:13 -0700 Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 16:16:13 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Sun. Message-ID: <20040607231613.GK12051@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <20040605012423.87178.qmail@web60808.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040605012423.87178.qmail@web60808.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 23:16:13 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 655 Lines: 17 Quoting bruce coston (jane_ikari@yahoo.com): > will b gone all day, could do emerge xfree86 kde on my > gentoo partition if a dhcp net connect is avail 4 my > nic. would like 2 try some gentoo but long compile > prevents me from getting modem mode working on that os. Hmm, does this message concern this coming Sunday, June 13? (I'm guessing that's what the "Sun." in the header is for.) DHCP net connections are always on tap, here. Not sure what you mean by "will be gone, all day": Do you mean during Sunday, or what? If people really _do_ want to have a Sunday meeting, a couple of list members will need to speak out in the next day or two. From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Tue Jun 08 11:43:01 2004 Received: from web60804.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.67]:34360) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BXlYl-0005Ns-5y for ; Tue, 08 Jun 2004 11:43:01 -0700 Message-ID: <20040608184254.94546.qmail@web60804.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.187.8] by web60804.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 08 Jun 2004 11:42:54 PDT Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 11:42:54 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Subject: [conspire] want a 386 BOARD etc. X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 18:43:02 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1181 Lines: 63 i remember someone saying they wanted a board, this one comes with some extras but may let you use your math-co. From: "David Christensen"   Add to Address Book Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 10:11:11 -0700 Subject: [davesrpg] 386 computer Guys: I have a torn-down 386DX system if anybody wants it:       Case, power supply, and 1.44MB floppy (originally Scott's)       Motherboard (Micronics?  originally Mark's)             Intel 386DX33 CPU                  8MB RAM (8 @ 1MB sticks)       ISA EIDE and floppy card       ISA high-speed parallel & serial card       ISA Trident video card (1 MB)       Turtle Beach CD-ROM and ISA sound card       3Com 3C905B 10Mbps combo card       ~400 MB hard drive       Two 240 MB hard drives       AT keyboard       Microsoft serial mouse It should be able to run Linux or *BSD, if you can find a distribution that will install into 8 MB.  I also have  DOS 5.0 with 6.22 upgrade and Windows 3.1 and 3.11 upgrade. Any takers? David __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Jun 08 13:28:42 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BXnD8-0005wF-7f by authid for ; Tue, 08 Jun 2004 13:28:42 -0700 Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 13:28:42 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] want a 386 BOARD etc. Message-ID: <20040608202842.GU12051@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <20040608184254.94546.qmail@web60804.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040608184254.94546.qmail@web60804.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 20:28:42 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 828 Lines: 21 Quoting bruce coston (jane_ikari@yahoo.com): [text from your friend David Christensen] > It should be able to run Linux or *BSD, if you can find a distribution > that will install into 8 MB. Which is actually a bit of a challenge. "Small Linux" on http://linuxmafia.com/kb/Admin has a list of possibles. With 8MB RAM, no math chip, and a 400MB hard drive, you could then run a single-purpose Linux (or BSD) box, such as a firewall, or a small SMTP/IMAP/POP mail server. But understand that the machine's ancient (probably about 15 years old), and so is in imminent danger of hardware failure. The first essential part that fails, it's a doorstop. (It makes no sense to spend money to fix, let alone expand, a PC that old.) Because of the latter reason, I'd say don't use it for any function you need to be reliable. From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Tue Jun 08 23:33:21 2004 Received: from web60803.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.66]:43328) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BXwe9-0000J3-AN for ; Tue, 08 Jun 2004 23:33:21 -0700 Message-ID: <20040609063311.56636.qmail@web60803.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.186.120] by web60803.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 08 Jun 2004 23:33:11 PDT Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 23:33:11 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: Randall Abel , conspire@linuxmafia.com, sam michlin MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Cc: Subject: [conspire] permissions on different distributions X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 06:33:21 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 888 Lines: 24 trying to live with several installs and the hassle of setting permissions, gives me a temporary conclusion that only Mandrake is acceptable of what i put on my box. Eventually i suspect some other distro will get working so well that i go through permission hassle and it becomes my permanent. i hope pclinuxos, mandrake based, has the same permissions, asking for root password is much nicer than go login as root and i'm not gonna teach my users the command line so su root isn't good enough. By the way, know of any special dangers re synaptic, i just put it on my mandrake, i hope it saves some rpm hassle, it seemed to want some kind of apt packages. with arch almost working, i'm very hopeful and i may get printer 2 going under mandrake! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Thu Jun 10 23:33:49 2004 Received: from web60803.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.66]:28680) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BYfbi-0004vR-9m for ; Thu, 10 Jun 2004 23:33:49 -0700 Message-ID: <20040611063341.44189.qmail@web60803.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.186.120] by web60803.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 10 Jun 2004 23:33:41 PDT Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 23:33:41 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com, david fox MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Cc: Subject: [conspire] turbo print X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 06:33:49 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 319 Lines: 13 already did fomatic, synaptic, did turbo print, then got real results using localhost631 & usb printing in Mandrake works, if these new repositories work out i may ditch w98 sooner. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From gregd@molecularsoftware.com Fri Jun 11 00:38:10 2004 Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net ([216.148.227.85]:47064) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BYgc0-00059p-0s for ; Fri, 11 Jun 2004 00:38:10 -0700 Received: from 192.168.0.40 (c-67-174-219-230.client.comcast.net[67.174.219.230]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <2004061107380001400bsgrie>; Fri, 11 Jun 2004 07:38:04 +0000 Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 00:23:17 -0700 From: Greg Dougherty To: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: <20040611063341.44189.qmail@web60803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040611003801-r01010800-46439483-0910-0108@192.168.0.40> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mailsmith 1.1.8 (Bluto) X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: gregd@molecularsoftware.com Content-Type: text/plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_RFCI, RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Subject: [conspire] Fedora Boot Disk X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 07:38:11 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 309 Lines: 11 I told Windows to remove Stuffit. It said parts would have to be removed on restart. I told it "Fine, do that". Now I get "Non-System disk or disk error" when I try to boot. I checked the bios, and it can see my HD. I had Fedora installed. Anyone have a Fedora disk I can use to reinstall? TIA, Greg From rick@linuxmafia.com Fri Jun 11 13:11:41 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BYsNJ-0000JO-71 by authid ; Fri, 11 Jun 2004 13:11:41 -0700 Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 13:11:41 -0700 To: Greg Dougherty Subject: Re: [conspire] Fedora Boot Disk Message-ID: <20040611201141.GW12051@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: Greg Dougherty , conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <20040611063341.44189.qmail@web60803.mail.yahoo.com> <20040611003801-r01010800-46439483-0910-0108@192.168.0.40> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040611003801-r01010800-46439483-0910-0108@192.168.0.40> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 20:11:41 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2077 Lines: 47 Quoting Greg Dougherty (gregd@molecularsoftware.com): > I told Windows to remove Stuffit. It said parts would have to be > removed on restart. I told it "Fine, do that". > > Now I get "Non-System disk or disk error" when I try to boot. I > checked the bios, and it can see my HD. I had Fedora installed. > Anyone have a Fedora disk I can use to reinstall? I have a full set of CD images for Fedora Core 2 for i386. Tell me which one you need (I'm rusty on Fedora matters), and I'll burn it for you. But that's not actually what you need. Slow down. You have something wrong with your ability to boot, but you don't yet know what's wrong. You know only that the hard disk still IDs itself to the BIOS. What the message "Non-System disk or disk error" means depends on what issued it. Can you tell? That's vital information. It could be a BIOS message indicating that the first drive in the BIOS-listed boot order that's in a "ready" state was the subject of a boot attempt, but lacked a valid boot sector, so that booting halted at that point. Make sure you don't have a floppy, CD, or other removable disk in any of your drives. You'd feel a little sheepish if the sole cause of this "hard drive problem" is that you left a data floppy in the "A:" drive, and "A:" is first in the BIOS boot order, right? If it's not that, then you might have somehow clobbered the unnamed Microsoft bootloader that lives in the first 446 bytes of the MBR. To restore that -- oh, jeez, I can't exactly remember. You can probably boot an MS-DOS 6.x or higher floppy and type "FDISK /MBR" to recreate it, or do likewise using a Win9x or WinME maintenance CD-ROM. If your system is Win NT/2k/XP, you can try booting your installation media for that thing, and using Repair mode. But, actually, the first thing I'd do is boot an LNX-BBC CD or a Tom's Root-Boot floppy, and see if my MS-Windows filesystem is still there at all. Not a lot of point in trying to repair Microsoft boot files if the underlying problem is something clobbered the MS-Windows filesystems. From gregd@molecularsoftware.com Fri Jun 11 16:33:56 2004 Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net ([216.148.227.85]:56079) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BYvWz-0001Ds-AC for ; Fri, 11 Jun 2004 16:33:56 -0700 Received: from 192.168.0.40 (c-67-174-219-230.client.comcast.net[67.174.219.230]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <2004061123335601400bt73ne>; Fri, 11 Jun 2004 23:33:56 +0000 Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 16:31:23 -0700 From: Greg Dougherty To: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: <20040611201141.GW12051@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <20040611163356-r01010800-e099cbc6-0910-0108@192.168.0.40> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mailsmith 1.1.8 (Bluto) X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: gregd@molecularsoftware.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Fedora Boot Disk Content-Type: text/plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_RFCI, RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 23:33:57 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1499 Lines: 41 On 6/11/04, Rick Moen writes: > Quoting Greg Dougherty (gregd@molecularsoftware.com): > > I have a full set of CD images for Fedora Core 2 for i386. Tell me > which one you need (I'm rusty on Fedora matters), and I'll burn it for > you. Thanks. I'll go to the Fedora site and figure that out. I have an Althlon, if that's what you need to know. > But that's not actually what you need. Slow down. > > You have something wrong with your ability to boot, but you don't yet > know what's wrong. You know only that the hard disk still IDs itself to > the BIOS. > > What the message "Non-System disk or disk error" means depends on what > issued it. Can you tell? That's vital information. It could be a BIOS > message indicating that the first drive in the BIOS-listed boot order > that's in a "ready" state was the subject of a boot attempt, but lacked > a valid boot sector, so that booting halted at that point. > > Make sure you don't have a floppy, CD, or other removable disk in any > of your drives. You'd feel a little sheepish if the sole cause of this > "hard drive problem" is that you left a data floppy in the "A:" drive, > and "A:" is first in the BIOS boot order, right? Yes, as a matter of fact, I DO feel rather sheepish that it was the floppy disk sitting in my floppy drive that was screwing me up (I'd already pulled the CD). :-( Thanks. -- Greg Dougherty Code Janitor Molecular Software, Inc. gregd@molecularsoftware.com 408-623-2854 From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Sun Jun 13 20:07:13 2004 Received: from web60801.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.64]:21768) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BZhoL-0005mN-5F for ; Sun, 13 Jun 2004 20:07:12 -0700 Message-ID: <20040614030700.39640.qmail@web60801.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.186.19] by web60801.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 13 Jun 2004 20:07:00 PDT Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 20:07:00 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Subject: [conspire] fire wire cdrw X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 03:07:13 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 296 Lines: 12 helped a friend move today, Sun., got a f/w cdrw, if u want it, its yours, will take 2 next meet. if his spare mon. works out i may wanna dump my old 17" too. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Jun 13 21:55:07 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BZjUx-00067X-68 by authid for ; Sun, 13 Jun 2004 21:55:07 -0700 Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 21:55:07 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] fire wire cdrw Message-ID: <20040614045507.GV12051@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <20040614030700.39640.qmail@web60801.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040614030700.39640.qmail@web60801.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 04:55:07 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 350 Lines: 11 Quoting bruce coston (jane_ikari@yahoo.com): > helped a friend move today, Sun., got a f/w cdrw, if u > want it, its yours, will take 2 next meet. if his > spare mon. works out i may wanna dump my old 17" too. You know, my cousin Sam (whom you met) could definitely use a 17" monitor. I'd be glad to convey it to him, if you decide to lose it. From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 14:09:42 2004 Received: from web60806.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.69]:46899) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1Bahev-00075r-EH for ; Wed, 16 Jun 2004 14:09:42 -0700 Message-ID: <20040616210905.55028.qmail@web60806.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.186.115] by web60806.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 16 Jun 2004 14:09:05 PDT Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 14:09:05 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Subject: [conspire] Re: conspire Digest, Vol 13, Issue 6 X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 21:09:44 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 4009 Lines: 141 OW!, 17" mon. died, 20" mac mon. does not work, borrowed 1 from neighbor 2do this, , guess i/we should get the 20 fixed as an old mac mon, it should last long before needing next fix, call 735-1971, (408) iff u have great info bout where 2 get this kinda prob. fixed cheap/fast.--- conspire-request@linuxmafia.com wrote: > Send conspire mailing list submissions to > conspire@linuxmafia.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, > visit > > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire > or, via email, send a message with subject or body > 'help' to > conspire-request@linuxmafia.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > conspire-owner@linuxmafia.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it > is more specific > than "Re: Contents of conspire digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: want a 386 BOARD etc. (Rick Moen) > 2. permissions on different distributions (bruce > coston) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 13:28:42 -0700 > From: Rick Moen > Subject: Re: [conspire] want a 386 BOARD etc. > To: conspire@linuxmafia.com > Message-ID: <20040608202842.GU12051@linuxmafia.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Quoting bruce coston (jane_ikari@yahoo.com): > > [text from your friend David Christensen] > > > It should be able to run Linux or *BSD, if you can > find a distribution > > that will install into 8 MB. > > Which is actually a bit of a challenge. > > "Small Linux" on http://linuxmafia.com/kb/Admin has > a list of possibles. > With 8MB RAM, no math chip, and a 400MB hard drive, > you could then run a > single-purpose Linux (or BSD) box, such as a > firewall, or a small > SMTP/IMAP/POP mail server. But understand that the > machine's ancient > (probably about 15 years old), and so is in imminent > danger of hardware > failure. The first essential part that fails, it's > a doorstop. (It > makes no sense to spend money to fix, let alone > expand, a PC that old.) > > Because of the latter reason, I'd say don't use it > for any function you > need to be reliable. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 23:33:11 -0700 (PDT) > From: bruce coston > Subject: [conspire] permissions on different > distributions > To: Randall Abel , > conspire@linuxmafia.com, sam > michlin > Message-ID: > <20040609063311.56636.qmail@web60803.mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > trying to live with several installs and the hassle > of > setting permissions, gives me a temporary conclusion > that only Mandrake is acceptable of what i put on my > box. Eventually i suspect some other distro will get > working so well that i go through permission hassle > and it becomes my permanent. i hope pclinuxos, > mandrake based, has the same permissions, asking for > root password is much nicer than go login as root > and > i'm not gonna teach my users the command line so su > root isn't good enough. > By the way, know of any special dangers re > synaptic, i just put it on my mandrake, i hope it > saves some rpm hassle, it seemed to want some kind > of > apt packages. with arch almost working, i'm very > hopeful and i may get printer 2 going under > mandrake! > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. > http://messenger.yahoo.com/ > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > conspire mailing list > conspire@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire > > > End of conspire Digest, Vol 13, Issue 6 > *************************************** __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Jun 16 14:59:12 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BaiR5-0007Ij-VV by authid for ; Wed, 16 Jun 2004 14:59:11 -0700 Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 14:59:11 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: conspire Digest, Vol 13, Issue 6 Message-ID: <20040616215911.GJ12051@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <20040616210905.55028.qmail@web60806.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040616210905.55028.qmail@web60806.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 21:59:12 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1535 Lines: 33 Quoting bruce coston (jane_ikari@yahoo.com): > OW!, 17" mon. died, 20" mac mon. does not work, > borrowed 1 from neighbor 2do this. Wow, that's terrible luck. Sorry to hear about that. > guess i/we should get the 20 fixed as an old mac mon, it should last > long before needing next fix, call 735-1971, (408) iff u have great > info bout where 2 get this kinda prob. fixed cheap/fast. Lots of places will have a try at fixing your monitor. Last I tried that sort of thing, they tend to charge you a minimum labour charge of maybe 2 hours; thus, maybe $100-120 minimum charge. The idea is that they open it up, then call you and tell you whether there's some additional charge to replace parts, if necessary, and it's then your judgement call about whether to proceed or to give up. You might find a place that will assess the unit without dinging you for minimum labour; you'd have to call around. Of course, a couple of years ago, the market changed and LCD panel displays finally took over the commodity monitor marketplace. Therefore, except for specialised needs, hardly anyone wants to buy a new tube-type monitor. So, consider carefully whether you want to sink repair dollars into such a unit. (By the way, I notice you've set your mailing list subscription to "digest" mode, in which you get all recent postings, if any, in a single -- digest -- mail. It's entirely up to you, but I'm sure you'll notice that there are disadvantages, and the benefit on this list is nearly nil because of its low traffic levels.) From ixian@idiom.com Wed Jun 16 15:02:30 2004 Received: from idiom.com ([216.240.32.1]:3992) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BaiUB-0007P2-9v for ; Wed, 16 Jun 2004 15:02:30 -0700 Received: from idiom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by idiom.com (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i5GM2JO6014865; Wed, 16 Jun 2004 15:02:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ixian@idiom.com) Received: (from ixian@localhost) by idiom.com (8.12.9p2/8.12.9/Submit) id i5GM2I7g014847; Wed, 16 Jun 2004 15:02:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ixian) MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <16592.50026.915820.256180@idiom.com> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 15:02:18 -0700 From: Eric De Mund To: conspire@linuxmafia.com In-Reply-To: <20040616210905.55028.qmail@web60806.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040616210905.55028.qmail@web60806.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: VM 7.07 under Emacs 21.2.1 X-Humans-Reply-To: Eric De Mund X-Fax: 240.282.4443 X-URL: X-Mailer: GNU Emacs 21.2.1 (i386--freebsd) X-POM: The Moon is Waning Crescent (1% of Full) Organization: Ixian Systems, Inc. X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: ixian@idiom.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Subject: [conspire] 24 SCSI hard disks available for $8-12 (i.e. 33-50c apiece) X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eric De Mund List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 22:02:30 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1339 Lines: 33 People, I've got two dozen 1.05 GB SCSI hard disks that I'm about to put up on craigslist for a song. I bought them two years ago, and have never used them. (I presume that they work, though they're being sold as is; each is in its own antistatic bag, and the whole lot is in a box that's 18"x18"x24", give or take.) I'm asking the price of lunch, either $8 or $12, for the whole lot, buyer's choice on the price. I thought a Linux cabalist might like to have these; I'm performing spring cleaning and this box has to go. Next week I'm going to put this box up on craigslist if no cabalist grabs these. Shoot me an email if you're interested, and I'll send you my address so you can come by and take a look at the box sitting outside my door (not exposed to the elements), take a look at the disks, and decide whether or not you wish to take the box away and leave $8 or $12 under my welcome mat. Here's a web page that describes these disks: Seagate ST31200WC (1.05GB) 3 1/2" 5400 RPM Single Ended Fast/Wide SCSI http://sunsolve.sun.com/handbook_pub/Devices/Disk/DISK_Sgte_ST31200WC.html Regards, Eric -- Eric De Mund | Ixian Systems, Inc. | cell: 650.303.4336 email: | 650 Castro St, #120-210 | fax: 240.282.4443 http://www.ixian.com/ead/ | Mountain View, CA 94041 | Y!IM: ead0002 From ixian@idiom.com Wed Jun 16 15:12:06 2004 Received: from idiom.com ([216.240.32.1]:4923) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BaidX-0007RI-Mz for ; Wed, 16 Jun 2004 15:12:06 -0700 Received: from idiom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by idiom.com (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i5GMC2O6031361; Wed, 16 Jun 2004 15:12:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ixian@idiom.com) Received: (from ixian@localhost) by idiom.com (8.12.9p2/8.12.9/Submit) id i5GMC1g0031343; Wed, 16 Jun 2004 15:12:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ixian) MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <16592.50609.745943.52339@idiom.com> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 15:12:01 -0700 From: Eric De Mund To: Bruce Coston X-Mailer: VM 7.07 under Emacs 21.2.1 X-Humans-Reply-To: Eric De Mund X-Fax: 240.282.4443 X-URL: X-Mailer: GNU Emacs 21.2.1 (i386--freebsd) X-POM: The Moon is Waning Crescent (1% of Full) Organization: Ixian Systems, Inc. X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: ixian@idiom.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: [conspire] spare monitors X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eric De Mund List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 22:12:06 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1061 Lines: 25 Bruce, ] OW!, 17" mon. died, 20" mac mon. does not work, ] borrowed 1 from neighbor 2do this. I've got three spare 15-17" monitors that I picked up on craigslist a couple of years ago when my monitor died. I'll let you have one of them for $30. (I bought three because I went overboard, *really* not liking being without a monitor.) You should be able to pick up a 17" monitor on craigslist for $30-50; however, give me a call if you want one of these. I can bear to only have two spare monitors, and, as I noted in a previ- ous email message, I am in the middle of spring cleaning. (There is also one of my dim 17" monitors out at the curb, available gratis, yet it's been out there since Friday, probably with some water damage due to condensation, and so I wouldn't recommend it except in the most dire of circumstances.) Regards, Eric -- Eric De Mund | Ixian Systems, Inc. | cell: 650.303.4336 email: | 650 Castro St, #120-210 | fax: 240.282.4443 http://www.ixian.com/ead/ | Mountain View, CA 94041 | Y!IM: ead0002 From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 23:09:58 2004 Received: from web60804.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.67]:48089) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1Baq5w-0001F9-5f for ; Wed, 16 Jun 2004 23:09:58 -0700 Message-ID: <20040617060947.9134.qmail@web60804.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.187.18] by web60804.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 16 Jun 2004 23:09:47 PDT Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 23:09:47 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1718172866-1087452587=:9094" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Subject: [conspire] new monitors X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 06:10:00 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 917 Lines: 15 --0-1718172866-1087452587=:9094 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii How do i get info about my new monitor to the os, i guess i could just re- install mandrake esp since i need to really write it all down this time & the apparent - curve makes me a little nauseous. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1718172866-1087452587=:9094 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
How do i get info about my new monitor to the os, i guess i could just re- install mandrake esp since i need to really write it all down this time & the apparent - curve makes me a little nauseous.

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http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1718172866-1087452587=:9094-- From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Wed Jun 23 08:27:03 2004 Received: from web60810.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.73]:34443) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1Bd9eG-0006HZ-6l for ; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 08:27:03 -0700 Message-ID: <20040623152651.57988.qmail@web60810.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.186.18] by web60810.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 08:26:51 PDT Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 08:26:51 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Subject: [conspire] Re: conspire Digest, Vol 13, Issue 10 X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 15:27:03 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 418 Lines: 14 i'll try 2bring my stuff, maybe not monitor, since i want 2 get arch working via dhcp, not so happy w ~2 things in mandrake. Failed to get dad on board w mandrake since permissions stopped him from using ooo on a file that constantly crashed w98. Hope alls well w all. --Bruce __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Jun 23 12:39:49 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BdDb3-0007Qm-4L by authid ; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 12:39:49 -0700 Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 12:39:49 -0700 To: bruce coston Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: conspire Digest, Vol 13, Issue 10 Message-ID: <20040623193948.GV2140@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: bruce coston , conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <20040623152651.57988.qmail@web60810.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040623152651.57988.qmail@web60810.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 19:39:50 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 4542 Lines: 96 Quoting bruce coston (jane_ikari@yahoo.com): > i'll try 2bring my stuff, maybe not monitor, since i > want 2 get arch working via dhcp, not so happy w ~2 > things in mandrake. If it'll help, I finally got the ISOs of Mandrakelinux 10.0 Official Edition. (As a reminder, Official Edition always comes out a few weeks after Community Edition does for the same release, and merges in sundry bug-fixes.) Also new at Chez Moen: o Xandros Desktop OS Open Circulation Edition 2.0.1 for i386 (1 disk) This is the first redistributable release of Xandros, and omits just a few of the proprietary add-ons that are Xandros's main attraction. (This is the Canadian distribution that was formerly called Corel Linux OS.) May be redistributed non-commercially. o SUSE Linux Personal Edition 9.1 for i386 (1 disk) Using this plus Internet access for access to extra packages, you can now install SUSE just from redistributable ISOs, again. May be redistributed non-commercially. Yes, SUSE Linux AG's new owner Novell Corporation has indeed announced that it's GPLing the YaST utilities, but that version will be out only later this summer. This is (obviously) not the full contents of the SUSE Linux Personal Edition 9.1 boxed set -- which occupies several CDs -- let alone of SUSE Linux Professional Edition 9.1. If you want those (which include numerous packages that may not be publicly redistributed), you'll have to buy a copy, e.g., at the Santa Clara Microcenter, or perhaps at Fry's. For more about SUSE Linux editions, see "SUSE Product Strategy" on http://linuxmafia.com/kb/Licensing_and_Law/ . o Red Hat Enterprise Linux 3.0 AS for i386 (4 disks) Yes, this is the boxed set that Red Hat markets to corporate business and bundles with service contracts. As far as I can tell, there's nothing in it that may not lawfully be redistributed non-commercially, so I will be letting people install or duplicate this disk set. (See: "RHEL ISOs" on http://linuxmafia.com/kb/RedHat/ .) Note to people finding this mailing list post via Google: No, I am _not_ posting ISOs or making the offer anywhere but at CABAL meetings at my house, so don't ask me to do you favours beyond the foregoing offer. I should stress that I _do_ take legal restrictions quite seriously, and believe to a high degree of confidence that I'm infringing no restrictions through this mode of distribution -- based on careful study of the product's contractual, copyright, and trademark status. The referenced Web page (above) has a detailed write-up. (If someone can cite compelling reason to think I'm wrong, please do so: CABAL doesn't participate in bootlegging of proprietary software.) Frankly, given that you wouldn't have either the support entitlement or access to Red Hat Network updates -- the things that make the product attractive to corporate customers -- I think y'all would be better off with Fedora Core 2 or one of the RHEL rebuild projects. (See: "RHEL Forks" on http://linuxmafia.com/kb/RedHat/ .) Reminder: I do have the full 4-CD set of Fedora Core 2 for i386. o Debian "sarge" (current "testing" branch) Test Candidate 1 netinst for i386 This is the release-candidate (post-beta4) version of the next-generation Debian installer for what will be the new stable branch. Installation kernel options include 2.4.x and 2.6.x kernels. There is much more automatic hardware recognition than in the traditional Debian installer. This is a 110MB "netinst" image, meaning it installs the Debian Base, and it's expected that you'll get any other packages you need from the Internet or other media. Interestingly, there are instructions to load this installer into, and boot/operate it from, a 128MB-or-greater USB flash drive, among other media. > Failed to get dad on board w mandrake since permissions stopped him > from using ooo on a file that constantly crashed w98. Judging by that description, I'd say it's eminently possible that the underlying problem is actually file corruption. (You didn't specify, but I'd guess you're talking about an MS-Word or MS-Excel document.) This is recurring problem with Word/Excel, mostly because frankly the document formats are technical design horrors. -- Cheers, "Linux means never having to delete your love mail." Rick Moen -- Don Marti rick@linuxmafia.com From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 23:21:57 2004 Received: from web60807.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.70]:40702) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BfC02-0006mB-B0 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 2004 23:21:57 -0700 Message-ID: <20040629062149.34421.qmail@web60807.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.186.26] by web60807.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 28 Jun 2004 23:21:49 PDT Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 23:21:49 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Subject: [conspire] Re: conspire Digest, Vol 13, Issue 12 X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 06:21:57 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 407 Lines: 15 1, is yahoo now sending this 2x? 2, got sound working in yoper but not mandrake or w98 yet. 3, did some more apt-get dist-upgrade w mandrake but its only getting some stuff and its huge for my modem speed, maybe i should get to work on the wireless usb thing? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Jun 29 13:28:25 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BfPDN-0002OM-Nh by authid for ; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 13:28:25 -0700 Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 13:28:25 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: conspire Digest, Vol 13, Issue 12 Message-ID: <20040629202825.GI25508@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <20040629062149.34421.qmail@web60807.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040629062149.34421.qmail@web60807.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:28:26 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1504 Lines: 41 Quoting bruce coston (jane_ikari@yahoo.com): > 1, is yahoo now sending this 2x? Nope. > 2, got sound working in yoper but not mandrake or w98 yet. You're on your own with W98. To fix mandrake, fire up Yoper and see what's in /etc/modules.conf or /etc/modules that seems relevant to your sound card. (Feel free to post it here.) Assuming the sound chipset isn't on an ISA card, you might also look closely at the output of "lspci -v". That's a command that queries the PCI controller chip and lists (does "ls" on, so to speak) the results. You'll want to pipe its output through a pager utility, such as "more" or "less": lspci -v | more You might need to be the root user, for lspci to give useful output. > 3, did some more apt-get dist-upgrade w mandrake but > its only getting some stuff and its huge for my modem > speed, maybe i should get to work on the wireless usb thing? Just for your reference, my page on where to find Linux hardware information is the "Help Resources" link from http://linuxmafia.com/kb/Hardware/ . You'll notice that there are links on the "Help Resources" Web page for USB stuff, and also for wireless stuff. Me, I try hard not to set myself a challenge in two areas at the same time (e.g., solving wireless issues _and_ USB ones). But hey, it could end up being an easy case. -- Cheers, There are only 10 types of people in this world -- Rick Moen those who understand binary arithmetic and those who don't. rick@linuxmafia.com From dmarti@zgp.org Tue Jun 29 17:20:37 2004 Received: from capsicum.zgp.org ([198.144.202.250]:48644) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BfSq0-0003X2-8m for ; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:20:37 -0700 Received: from lycopersicon (unknown [10.4.0.6]) by capsicum.zgp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB7F63FD2E for ; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:20:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dmarti by lycopersicon with local (Exim 4.32) id 1BfSqL-000427-MQ for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:20:53 -0700 Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:20:53 -0700 From: Don Marti To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20040630002053.GB15435@lycopersicon.zgp.org> References: <20040629062149.34421.qmail@web60807.mail.yahoo.com> <20040629202825.GI25508@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040629202825.GI25508@linuxmafia.com> X-Message-Flag: No word processor attachments. Plain text only. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i Sender: Don Marti X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: dmarti@zgp.org Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: conspire Digest, Vol 13, Issue 12 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 00:20:37 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 622 Lines: 16 begin Rick Moen quotation of Tue, Jun 29, 2004 at 01:28:25PM -0700: > Just for your reference, my page on where to find Linux hardware > information is the "Help Resources" link from > http://linuxmafia.com/kb/Hardware/ . You'll notice that there are links > on the "Help Resources" Web page for USB stuff, and also for wireless > stuff. Got an RSS feed for your knowledge base? -- Don Marti http://zgp.org/~dmarti/ Learn Linux and free software dmarti@zgp.org from the experts in California, USA http://freedomtechnologycenter.org/ From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Jun 29 17:32:21 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BfT1R-0003bA-9f by authid for ; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:32:21 -0700 Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:32:21 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: conspire Digest, Vol 13, Issue 12 Message-ID: <20040630003221.GS25508@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <20040629062149.34421.qmail@web60807.mail.yahoo.com> <20040629202825.GI25508@linuxmafia.com> <20040630002053.GB15435@lycopersicon.zgp.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040630002053.GB15435@lycopersicon.zgp.org> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 00:32:21 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 527 Lines: 15 Quoting Don Marti (dmarti@zgp.org): > Got an RSS feed for your knowledge base? What an intriguing idea! I'm not sure it would be really useful, since the deltas tend to be a lot of little tweaky changes, rather than something people would want to be continually informed about. But I'll think on it. I'm sufficiently out of the loop on RSS that I'm not sure which of the seven or so RSS dialect is reasonable to use for such things, or the degree to which compatibility is a problem. But Deirdre would know, I'll bet. From deirdre@deirdre.net Tue Jun 29 17:40:54 2004 Received: from emperor.deirdre.org ([198.144.195.190]:50202) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BfT9g-0003dx-UC; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:40:54 -0700 Received: from emperor.deirdre.org (deirdre@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by emperor.deirdre.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Debian-7) with ESMTP id i5U0jWRt026472 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:45:32 -0700 Received: from localhost (deirdre@localhost) by emperor.deirdre.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Debian-7) with ESMTP id i5U0jW8g026468; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:45:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: emperor.deirdre.org: deirdre owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:45:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Deirdre Saoirse Moen X-X-Sender: To: Rick Moen In-Reply-To: <20040630003221.GS25508@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: deirdre@deirdre.net Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: conspire Digest, Vol 13, Issue 12 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 00:40:54 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 436 Lines: 16 On Tue, 29 Jun 2004, Rick Moen wrote: > I'm sufficiently out of the loop on RSS that I'm not sure which of the > seven or so RSS dialect is reasonable to use for such things, or the > degree to which compatibility is a problem. But Deirdre would know, > I'll bet. Two point oh. http://www.fuzzyorange.com/vsd/wp-rss2.php -- _Deirdre http://deirdre.net "Memes are a hoax! Pass it on!" From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 19:55:36 2004 Received: from web60810.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.73]:22675) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BfVFy-0004EW-Cm for ; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 19:55:36 -0700 Message-ID: <20040630025530.29652.qmail@web60810.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.187.24] by web60810.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 19:55:29 PDT Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 19:55:29 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Subject: [conspire] continuing apt-get dist-upgrade X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 02:55:36 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 317 Lines: 13 i may get ~10% done per day, so if resume fails its hopeless, else its ok. Why am i doing this again, somebody? does it help with the 802.11b to usb adapter? eventually? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Jun 29 20:34:08 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BfVrM-0004QJ-QX by authid for ; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:34:08 -0700 Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:34:08 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] continuing apt-get dist-upgrade Message-ID: <20040630033408.GV25508@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <20040630025530.29652.qmail@web60810.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040630025530.29652.qmail@web60810.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 03:34:09 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 465 Lines: 16 Quoting bruce coston (jane_ikari@yahoo.com): > i may get ~10% done per day, so if resume fails its > hopeless, else its ok. Well, you could pay us a visit. But we're heading out of town in a couple of days, so check first. > Why am i doing this again, somebody? does it help with > the 802.11b to usb adapter? eventually? I really have no idea, personally. What's the chipset, again? If this is a USB device, then I would guess lsusb would tell the tale. From mhigashi@myrddin.imat.com Wed Jun 30 20:28:09 2004 Received: from adsl-207-214-84-142.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net ([207.214.84.142]:52494 helo=myrddin.imat.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BfsF1-00021B-GN for ; Wed, 30 Jun 2004 20:28:09 -0700 Received: (from mhigashi@localhost) by myrddin.imat.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id i613O8t24546 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Wed, 30 Jun 2004 20:24:08 -0700 Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 20:24:08 -0700 From: Mike Higashi To: Cabalists Message-ID: <20040701032408.GA24343@myrddin.imat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhigashi@myrddin.imat.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Subject: [conspire] [Local] Want to help GNOME at LWCE? X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 03:28:09 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1324 Lines: 32 Hi, everybody. The next LinuxWorld Conference and Expo is about five weeks away. Once again the GNOME Foundation will have a booth in the dot-org pavillion, and could use some help staffing the booth during the expo. If you have one or more days free between Tuesday, August 3rd and Thursday, August 5th, and would like to help the GNOME Foundation collect donations and spread the word about GNOME, please take the following steps: 1) Go to www.linuxworldexpo.com and register yourself for a free expo pass to LinuxWorld. The deadline for free passes is this Friday, July 2nd. 2) Send a reply to me personally at (to reduce list traffic) saying what days and hours you'll be available to help out. Helping out at the GNOME booth is real easy. We get many questions at the booth from newbies regarding free software, Linux, and GNOME, so you do not have to be a GNOME expert (although that helps). We may need one person to help set up before the expo is open to the public. If we do, and you are available, I can see about getting you an exhibitor pass. If you would like to volunteer, but would prefer helping a different organization, I'm sure there will be others in the dot-org pavillion who could also use help, but you'll need to find out who to contact on your own. Mike Higashi From skiffworks@earthlink.net Thu Jul 01 18:54:18 2004 Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.49]:64204) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BgDFl-0007eh-2X for ; Thu, 01 Jul 2004 18:54:18 -0700 Received: from cpe-24-221-189-101.ca.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.189.101] helo=skiffworks) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BgDFm-0007eL-00; Thu, 01 Jul 2004 18:54:14 -0700 Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 18:56:41 -0700 From: Bill Stoye To: conspire Message-Id: <20040701185641.6352c54b.skiffworks@earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.6claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: skiffworks@earthlink.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Subject: [conspire] Linux classes X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 01:54:19 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 125 Lines: 7 Conspirators: Does anyone know of any beginning Linux classes, preferably in the South Bay area? Best regards, Bill Stoye From bill@wards.dyndns.org Fri Jul 02 11:29:13 2004 Received: from smtp2.sasquatch.com ([216.218.236.166]:59495) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BgSmZ-000344-KA for ; Fri, 02 Jul 2004 11:29:13 -0700 Received: (qmail 4203 invoked by uid 7794); 2 Jul 2004 18:08:08 -0000 Received: from bill@wards.dyndns.org by smtp2.sasquatch.com by uid 7791 with qmail-scanner-1.16 (sophie: 2.19/3.81. Clear:. Processed in 0.103871 secs); 02 Jul 2004 18:08:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO komodo.home.wards.net) (colleen@24.6.189.52) by smtp2.sasquatch.com with SMTP; 2 Jul 2004 18:08:08 -0000 Received: from bill by komodo.home.wards.net with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BgSNY-0004uA-00; Fri, 02 Jul 2004 11:03:16 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <16613.41828.384912.139701@komodo.home.wards.net> Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:03:16 -0700 From: bill@wards.net (William R Ward) To: Bill Stoye In-Reply-To: <20040701185641.6352c54b.skiffworks@earthlink.net> References: <20040701185641.6352c54b.skiffworks@earthlink.net> X-Mailer: VM 7.03 under Emacs 21.2.1 Sender: Bill Ward X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: bill@wards.dyndns.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [conspire] Linux classes X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.7 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Cc: conspire X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 18:29:13 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 554 Lines: 18 Bill Stoye writes: >Conspirators: > >Does anyone know of any beginning Linux classes, preferably in the South Bay area? Check out http://www.linuxcertified.com/ Disclaimer: I have a business relationship with Linux Certified: my Perl training courses are offered as a joint project of our two companies. --Bill. -- William R Ward bill@wards.net http://www.wards.net/~bill/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Movies are like life with all the dull parts left out." - Alfred Hitchcock From skiffworks@earthlink.net Mon Jul 05 06:00:04 2004 Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.22]:51992) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BhT4h-00006u-3q for ; Mon, 05 Jul 2004 06:00:04 -0700 Received: from cpe-24-221-189-101.ca.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.189.101] helo=skiffworks) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BhT4h-0004lG-00 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Mon, 05 Jul 2004 05:59:59 -0700 Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 06:02:50 -0700 From: Bill Stoye To: conspire Message-Id: <20040705060250.1c186ce4.skiffworks@earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.6claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: skiffworks@earthlink.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,FREE_TRIAL, REMOVE_SUBJ autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Subject: [conspire] Fw: Libranet Newsletter July 05, 2004 l1252934 X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 13:00:04 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1808 Lines: 52 Begin forwarded message: Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 23:04:29 -0700 (PDT) From: libranet-news@libranet.com To: skiffworks@earthlink.net Subject: Libranet Newsletter July 05, 2004 l1252934 Libranet Newsletter July 05, 2004 Greetings! LIBRANET 2.8.1 TRIAL DOWNLOAD --------------------------------- The Libranet 2.8.1 official Flagship version has been released as a free trial download. We are hoping with this release to significantly increase the number of Libranet users and to achieve advance publicity for Libranet version 3.0. The Libranet download page has details: http://libranet.com/download.html VERSION 3.0 COMING ALONG NICELY --------------------------------- Libranet 3.0 is progressing well. Much of the work is now concentrated on the brand new installer. Most of the installer is graphical, it will include the 2.8.1 features as well as some new ones. We are not sure when the beta will be ready for testing and will let you know when we do. USERS TO THE RESCUE --------------------------------- When the 2.8.1 trial was released and publicized on DistroWatch, the response was so large that our servers bandwidth usage shot sky high. To help offset the load, we set up the download on BitTorrent and a number of users, after downloading, responded by leaving their BitTorrent clients running to help. Also we very much appreciate users that are helping to get the word out about the download. --------------------------------- All the best, - The Libranet Team --------------------------------- There is no fixed schedule for this newsletter. This letter is sent only to those who have signed up to receive it. If you wish to be removed from the list, reply to this email and add the word REMOVE to the subject line. Leave your subscription number in the subject line. From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Jul 07 00:35:46 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1Bi6y2-0002OV-89 by authid for ; Wed, 07 Jul 2004 00:35:46 -0700 Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 00:35:46 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20040707073546.GI19255@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Subject: [conspire] (forw) installation help needed (for July 10) X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 07:35:46 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1950 Lines: 56 ----- Forwarded message from [snipped] ----- Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 20:17:13 -0700 (PDT) From: [snipped] To: installers@linuxmafia.com Subject: installation help needed (for July 10) to whom it may concern, i had redhat linux 7.2 installed on an old hp vectra and i loved it. i used it for browsing the web and for writing perl code, which i used for cron jobs. i had it connected to my linksys router. the power supply died and i decided to "upgrade" and bought another vectra (6g harddrive ,pentium ii, 384mb of ram) off of craigslist. i was able to install redhat 7.2 again but the kernel did not recognize the networking card (i think it is a 3com 3C905B card). when i run a "lspci" command the card does show up. a friend at work suggested i install redhat 9.0, which i proceeded to do. the installer for 9.0 is suppose to pick up Network Devices: http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/linux/RHL-9-Manual/install-guide/s1-netconfig.html i have two separate 3com cards installed but neither show up. when i plug in the 3C905B card card to my linksys router, all the lights are lit. i am baffled: the hardware is there accdg. to the "lspci" command, but the Redhat 9.0 installer is not picking it up. the previous owner had a wireless card which he removed and replaced with the 3com card. i've successfuly installed redhat 7.2 twice (the first time the installer quit), both times the network card showed up using the "lspci" command, but i couldn't get the os to recognize it. i tried to install 9.0 once but the installer quit -- since that happened the first time when i installed 7.2, i figure it will install 9.0 too. at this point, i've abandoned the installation of 9.0, so the box now has neither redhat 7.2 or 9.0 in it. a friend suggested that i come and seek help installing linux, and at this point it would be nice to have some help and encouragement. please let me know if i can come get help this saturday, jul 10th. From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Jul 07 00:36:34 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1Bi6yo-0002PP-Ho by authid for ; Wed, 07 Jul 2004 00:36:34 -0700 Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 00:36:34 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20040707073634.GJ19255@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Subject: [conspire] (forw) Re: installation help needed (for July 10) X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 07:36:34 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1750 Lines: 53 ----- Forwarded message from Rick Moen ----- Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 00:34:47 -0700 To: [snipped] Cc: installers@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: installation help needed (for July 10) Reply-To: installers@linuxmafia.com From: Rick Moen Quoting [snipped]: > to whom it may concern, That's me and Duncan MacKinnon. [Your Vectra with two good ol' 3C509B ISApnp NICs, which I know very well.] > http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/linux/RHL-9-Manual/install-guide/s1-netconfig.html > > i have two separate 3com cards installed but neither > show up. when i plug in the 3C905B card card to my > linksys router, all the lights are lit. Shouldn't be _that_ hard to diagnose. As it happens, my installfest server is a K6/233 with, of all things, a pair of 3C509B cards. One thing I usually do, that you might not have done, is disable ISApnp mode using the MS-DOS 3C5X9CFG.EXE utility from 3Com, before installing any OS using those cards. Truth to tell, I was just about to (finally) throw out my remaining supply of 3C509 and 3C509B cards, not because they aren't fine cards (given the 10 Mbps limitation), but rather because the ISA bus is just too obsolete, by now. You're welcome to have mine. > a friend suggested that i come and seek help > installing linux, and at this point it would be nice > to have some help and encouragement. > > please let me know if i can come get help this > saturday, jul 10th. Sure. Of course. You're very welcome, and I imagine we'll be able to fix it up. -- Cheers, "All power is delightful, but absolute power Rick Moen is absolutely delightful." - Kenneth Tynan rick@linuxmafia.com ----- End forwarded message ----- From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Jul 07 00:39:30 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1Bi71d-0002RD-Rg by authid for ; Wed, 07 Jul 2004 00:39:29 -0700 Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 00:39:29 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20040707073929.GL19255@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Subject: [conspire] (forw) Re: installation help needed (for July 10) X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 07:39:30 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 783 Lines: 28 ----- Forwarded message from Rick Moen ----- Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 00:38:58 -0700 To: [snipped] Cc: installers@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: installation help needed (for July 10) Reply-To: installers@linuxmafia.com From: Rick Moen Quoting [snipped]: [much snipped] > i was able to install redhat 7.2 again but the kernel > did not recognize the networking card (i think it is a > 3com 3C905B card). when i run a "lspci" command the > card does show up. D'oh! I'm a bit fatigued, and mistakenly read "3C509B" (an early ISA model) instead of 3C905B (a much more recent PCI one). Sorry about that. Well, the problem is a bit more mysterious, then, but we'll certainly be glad to have a shot at it. ----- End forwarded message ----- From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Jul 07 10:38:01 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BiGMr-00050X-5w by authid for ; Wed, 07 Jul 2004 10:38:01 -0700 Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 10:38:01 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20040707173801.GP19255@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Subject: [conspire] (forw) Re: installation help needed (for July 10) X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 17:38:01 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 919 Lines: 32 ----- Forwarded message from ben lorica ----- Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 06:49:25 -0700 (PDT) From: [snipped] To: rick@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: installation help needed (for July 10) Thanks for the reply. I'll definitely be there at 4. I'm thinking of buying a 40g drive since the hard drive is 6G (accdg to the seller) and I got turned down by Redhat 9.0 when I wanted the workstation install. I'm not very well versed on hardware but the current hard drive is a Quantum Fireball CE 3.5 series power req: 5/12 V 5/30/570 mA Will this hard drive work with my computer: http://www.centralcomputer.com/emerchant/itemdetail.asp?item=DRIMAX6E041S Should I wait to see if you guys can install first? I guess I can run out to Fry's while I'm there. I really don't need the primary hard drive to be very big, just big enough for the workstation install. See you this saturday ... From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Jul 07 10:38:49 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BiGNd-00051k-Pa by authid for ; Wed, 07 Jul 2004 10:38:49 -0700 Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 10:38:49 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20040707173849.GA19298@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Subject: [conspire] (forw) Re: installation help needed (for July 10) X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 17:38:50 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2627 Lines: 74 ----- Forwarded message from Rick Moen ----- Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 10:37:22 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: [snipped] Subject: Re: installation help needed (for July 10) Quoting [snipped]: > i have two separate 3com cards installed but neither > show up. when i plug in the 3C905B card card to my > linksys router, all the lights are lit. > i am baffled: the hardware is there accdg. to the > "lspci" command, but the Redhat 9.0 installer is not > picking it up. the previous owner had a wireless card > which he removed and replaced with the 3com card. One thing to try: Move the cards around to different PCI sockets until the installer picks them up. It shouldn't work, but it often does. > I'm thinking of buying a 40g drive since the hard > drive is 6G (accdg to the seller) and I got turned > down by Redhat 9.0 when I wanted the workstation > install. Yeah, time does fly, eh? Most of my own machines still have drives smaller than that, and yet 40GB is now the smallest new drive you can find on the market. I'm not very well versed on hardware but the > current hard drive is a > > Quantum Fireball CE 3.5 series > power req: 5/12 V > 5/30/570 mA > > Will this hard drive work with my computer: > > > http://www.centralcomputer.com/emerchant/itemdetail.asp?item=DRIMAX6E041S Um, I think so. At various points in the past, the ATA ("IDE") interface has had problems with motherboard BIOSes being unable to keep up with improvements in drive capacity. I believe there was a 504 MB barrier, an 8 GB barrier, a 33 GB barrier, and like that. Unfortunately, I can't really remember precisely. ("Barrier" means that some older motherboards either couldn't see the drive at all, or saw only a portion of it.) The Large Disk HOWTO talks about some of that: http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Large-Disk-HOWTO-11.html ...but it isn't very current. I notice that the drive you're talking about is available with either ATA/133 or SATA connectors. You should avoid SATA unless you're sure your motherboard is quite new and has one. > Should I wait to see if you guys can install first? {shrug} Up to you. I might buy it on speculation that either my current computer could use it or the one I acquired after discarding the old one out of sheer frustration with its limitations. ;-> I personally don't trust Fry's as a source for hard drives, or much else: too many episodes that undermine my trust in them. Central Computer is better, but of course much further away (Santa Clara, as opposed to Palo Alto for Fry's). ----- End forwarded message ----- From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Thu Jul 08 22:56:12 2004 Received: from web60805.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.68]:45413) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BioMf-0005oF-6E for ; Thu, 08 Jul 2004 22:56:12 -0700 Message-ID: <20040709055556.54363.qmail@web60805.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.187.22] by web60805.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 08 Jul 2004 22:55:56 PDT Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 22:55:56 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Subject: [conspire] Re: conspire Digest, Vol 14, Issue 4 X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 05:56:13 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 339 Lines: 12 i plan2go , talked 2daniel bout pport scanner but am thinking bout putting kanotix on my next partition , also bout replacing my gentoo partition w install from that recent-ish gentoo live cd. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 21:52:10 2004 Received: from web60806.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.69]:36760) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BjsnL-0005Cs-Mt for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:52:10 -0700 Message-ID: <20040712045207.59729.qmail@web60806.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.186.31] by web60806.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:52:07 PDT Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:52:07 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: David Fox , rabel1@comcast.net, kbarlow@ix.netcom.com, conspire@linuxmafia.com, davesrpg@yahoogroups.com, smichlin2@yahoo.com, stanbott@yahoo.com, korath4kwp@yahoo.com, wyndsister@yahoo.com In-Reply-To: <20040712015546.4BC29F935@m206-157.dsl.tsoft.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Cc: Subject: [conspire] Kanotix, distro #5, 6 w w98 X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 04:52:10 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 409 Lines: 14 this looks good, got it workin fast, seems more secure, debian/knoppix based, recent openoffice.org and seems 2have partimage [matters[mondo cd was bad]4 b/u of sys 2 cd's], guess i'll update this some at next CABAL, updating mandrake didn't do much apparently. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 23:11:51 2004 Received: from web60809.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.72]:27245) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BkGVr-0003VQ-Og for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:11:51 -0700 Message-ID: <20040713061104.97589.qmail@web60809.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.187.3] by web60809.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:11:04 PDT Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:11:04 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Subject: [conspire] kdict on kanotix X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 06:11:51 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 485 Lines: 16 Who do i scream at over the toxic crap masquerading as a dictionary of english, they labeled the only meaning for the verb can in my good pocket dictionary "Obs.," that means obsolete. Then they say to use can that way in preferrence to may under may. I only checked 2 words so far! Does this mean i've found my open-source project? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From dmarti@zgp.org Tue Jul 13 07:42:51 2004 Received: from capsicum.zgp.org ([198.144.202.250]:45744) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BkOUX-0005hv-NP for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 07:42:51 -0700 Received: from lycopersicon (unknown [198.144.202.251]) by capsicum.zgp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2AB83FC37 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 07:42:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dmarti by lycopersicon with local (Exim 4.32) id 1BkOUa-0000sa-3v for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 07:42:48 -0700 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 07:42:48 -0700 From: Don Marti To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20040713144248.GA3332@lycopersicon.zgp.org> References: <20040713061104.97589.qmail@web60809.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040713061104.97589.qmail@web60809.mail.yahoo.com> X-Message-Flag: No word processor attachments. Plain text only. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i Sender: Don Marti X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: dmarti@zgp.org Subject: Re: [conspire] kdict on kanotix Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:42:53 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 864 Lines: 22 begin bruce coston quotation of Mon, Jul 12, 2004 at 11:11:04PM -0700: > Who do i scream at over the toxic crap masquerading as > a dictionary of english, they labeled the only meaning > for the verb can in my good pocket dictionary "Obs.," > that means obsolete. Then they say to use can that way > in preferrence to may under may. I only checked 2 > words so far! > Does this mean i've found my open-source project? "dict" searches several dictionaries... http://www.dict.org/bin/Dict?Form=Dict1&Query=00-database-info&Strategy=*&Database=* including FILE, which accepts submissions. http://www.dict.org/file.html -- Don Marti http://zgp.org/~dmarti/ Learn Linux and free software dmarti@zgp.org from the experts in California, USA http://freedomtechnologycenter.org/ From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 13:05:09 2004 Received: from web60804.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.67]:25498) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BkTWQ-0007JT-87 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:05:09 -0700 Message-ID: <20040713200501.48173.qmail@web60804.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.186.23] by web60804.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:05:01 PDT Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:05:01 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Subject: [conspire] kdict X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:05:09 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 668 Lines: 19 Actually i figured out what they were doing immediately after hitting send and its a horribly over-technical distinction that will hideously mislead all but the top ~1% of dictionary users, thus its a good 1 4 me but awful on the whole. i sent that after heavy pollens and before discovering that my sound card works better when i move the speaker connector from mic. to spkr.. Still using kanotix myself but wondering about the libranet distro. i'm thinking i may want to change kanotix to sarge from experimental __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Jul 13 14:18:59 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BkUfz-0007mI-Mv by authid for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:18:59 -0700 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:18:59 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] kdict Message-ID: <20040713211859.GA27634@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <20040713200501.48173.qmail@web60804.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040713200501.48173.qmail@web60804.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:19:00 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 3187 Lines: 77 Quoting bruce coston (jane_ikari@yahoo.com): > Actually i figured out what they were doing immediately after hitting > send and its a horribly over-technical distinction that will hideously > mislead all but the top ~1% of dictionary users, thus its a good 1 4 > me but awful on the whole. Mercy me, it's a pleasure to find someone who even cares about the quality of dictionaries. It makes me have hope for the quality of public discourse. Personally, I fall back on http://www.m-w.com/ for many things, but I suppose it would be really delightful to have better references available programmatically: ~ $ dict blunderbuss 2 definitions found From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) [web1913]: Blunderbuss \Blun"der*buss\, n. [Either fr. blunder + D. bus tube, box, akin to G. b["u]chse box, gun, E. box; or corrupted fr. D. donderbus (literally) thunder box, gun, musket.] 1. A short gun or firearm, with a large bore, capable of holding a number of balls, and intended to do execution without exact aim. 2. A stupid, blundering fellow. From WordNet (r) 2.0 [wn]: blunderbuss n : a short musket of wide bore with a flared muzzle Ah, I hear faint echos of the OED. It's now traditional to test dictionaries using that word, ever since J.R.R. Tolkien in his tongue-in-cheek heroic fantasy "Farmer Giles of Ham" gently pilloried the editors of the _Oxford English Dictionary_ for the extremely odd definition they saw fit to include in the first edition: Still, property is property; and Farmer Giles had a short way with trespassers that few could outface. So he pulled on his breeches, and went down into the kitchen and took his blunderbuss from the wall. Some may well ask what a blunderbuss was. Indeed, this very question, it is said, was put to the Four Wise Clerks of Oxenford, and after thought they replied: `A blunderbuss is a short gun with a large bore firing many balls or slugs, and capable of doing execution within a limited range without exact aim. (Now superseded in civilised countries by other firearms.)' However, Farmer Giles's blunderbuss had a wide mouth that opened like a horn, and it did not fire balls or slugs, but anything that he could spare to stuff in. And it did not do execution, because he seldom loaded it, and never let it off. The sight of it was usually enough for his purpose. And this country was not yet civilised, for the blunderbuss was not superseded: it was indeed the only kind of gun that there was, and rare at that. People preferred bows and arrows and used gunpowder mostly for fireworks. > Still using kanotix myself but wondering about the libranet distro. > i'm thinking i may want to change kanotix to sarge from experimental You're tracking the experimental branch? That's pretty gonzo, Bruce. Whoo-hoo! -- Cheers, Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based, Rick Moen not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed, rick@linuxmafia.com modern-American-English-usage-improvement association. From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 00:49:33 2004 Received: from web60807.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.70]:25053) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BkeW7-0001xo-Hx for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 00:49:33 -0700 Message-ID: <20040714074926.88406.qmail@web60807.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.187.9] by web60807.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 00:49:26 PDT Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 00:49:26 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Subject: [conspire] Re: conspire Digest, Vol 14, Issue 7 X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:49:33 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 554 Lines: 16 the new YOPER claims 2 run faster than other distro's, it got sound on my box w/o a kernel recompile. I'd like 2try that if its still 1 cd, please burn 1 for me and maybe someone can coordinate it coming to svlug sat. My kanotix didn't really handle my new ide dvd player right so i may just re-install another kanotix partition or just watch movies now that my player always get bios recognition. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Jul 14 15:00:53 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1Bkro5-0006Lp-DH by authid for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 15:00:53 -0700 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 15:00:53 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: conspire Digest, Vol 14, Issue 7 Message-ID: <20040714220053.GR31239@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <20040714074926.88406.qmail@web60807.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040714074926.88406.qmail@web60807.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 22:00:53 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2452 Lines: 64 Quoting bruce coston (jane_ikari@yahoo.com): > the new YOPER claims 2 run faster than other distro's Kinda cute when distro-makers post claims like that, isn't it? The Web site claims this is on account of... o 686-optimised compiling o 2.6.7 kernel o ReiserFS o Stripped binaries (no debugging info) o Prelinked binaries o Keeping dependencies to a minimum o IDE tweaking using hdparm The Linux world gets a new batch of compile-from-source people every few years claiming miracles from this-or-that set of compilation options. Richard Couture and I tried this out during the heyday of the Pentium Compiler Group (makers of what became gcc 2.9/3.x, the first gcc series to support better than 486 optimisation). For almost all code, fiddling with the compiler flags made no difference whatsoever to performance: You could set -march=i686 and so on, and all you end up doing is padding out your integer variables with extra nulls. For a few X11 binaries, you could get a 15% gain in speed. Prelinking improves _startup_ time for dynamically linked applications, but no other aspect of performance. There's the disadvantage that every time you update the program or its libs, you have to remember to re-prelink, or the app breaks. Stripping binaries seems like a good idea -- until you're trying to debug something. Tweaking systems using hdparm, using a 2.6.7 kernel, and use of ReiserFS (which I know you like) is equally available on any other distirbution, for those who like them. Note that hdparm isn't used by default on Linux distributions generally because it causes massive data corruption on some ATA (IDE) chipsets, and therefore needs to applied selectively. However, all that having been said, Yoper seems to be a fairly well thought out, high-performance desktop system for i686 and up. I personally wouldn't be really thrilled about the Slackware-derived package management, or the Red Hat startup scripts, but chacun a son gout. > it got sound on my box w/o a kernel recompile. Good news. > I'd like 2try that if its still 1 cd, please burn 1 for me and maybe > someone can coordinate it coming to svlug sat. OK. I'm pulling down ftp://us2.yoper.com/pub/linux/yoper/yos-i686-2.0.0-9.iso at the moment, and will have it for Saturday. I sure hope the "s" in "yos" doesn't mean "source code disk". It's the only ISO listed. (I think "yos" is actually "Your Operating System", the full name of Yoper.) From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Jul 14 15:56:17 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1Bksfh-0006dd-KS by authid for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 15:56:17 -0700 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 15:56:17 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20040714225617.GA25395@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <20040707173849.GA19298@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040707173849.GA19298@linuxmafia.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Subject: [conspire] Re: (forw) Re: installation help needed (for July 10) X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 22:56:19 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1325 Lines: 28 Quoting myself to an unidentified CABAL attendee: > > i am baffled: the hardware is there accdg. to the > > "lspci" command, but the Redhat 9.0 installer is not > > picking it up. the previous owner had a wireless card > > which he removed and replaced with the 3com card. > > One thing to try: Move the cards around to different PCI sockets until > the installer picks them up. It shouldn't work, but it often does. Just to let the other shoe drop: The cause turned out to be that the 3Com card wasn't seated properly in its PCI socket. This sort of problem is always a possibility in PC hardware, where sometimes proper fit and finish (of motherboards and cases) can be lacking. Also, any time you move PCs around or (worse!) ship them, you should ideally take the time to make sure all expansion cards are still properly seated, since they do tend to vibrate loose on many systems. Kudos to Daniel and Bruce for spotting that problem! If memory serves, the fellow in question had indeed gotten down to Central Computer and picked up a new hard drive, and it worked fine. -- Cheers, "I used to be on the border of insanity. However, due Rick Moen to pressing political concerns, I recently had to invade." rick@linuxmafia.com -- Kurt Montandon, in r.a.sf.w.r-j From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 02:44:46 2004 Received: from web60803.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.66]:48325) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BmUhJ-0000GY-Hf for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 02:44:46 -0700 Message-ID: <20040719094437.94336.qmail@web60803.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.187.7] by web60803.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 02:44:37 PDT Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 02:44:37 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Subject: [conspire] asus p3v 4x X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:44:46 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 805 Lines: 22 using an apolo 133a chipset, i may have a new m/b + case, amazing what happens when u finally get all the bailing wire attachin yer external p/s 2 yer "frame," but does anyone already know this board, esp. got a manual? This post BX chipset suppossedly still suffers latency problems vs BX but i can get mo ram. my BE6-II will probably prove a better board in some way so i'm only pleased about payoff from helping my reverend friends. i've been trying all day 2get a manual online but the junk i'm gettin 4 w98 keeps my ~3kb connection plenty busy. anyone interested in an isa osciliscope card from my other extra box 2 cannibilize. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/ From rick@linuxmafia.com Mon Jul 19 10:18:38 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1Bmbmf-0002K7-La by authid for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:18:37 -0700 Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:18:37 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] asus p3v 4x Message-ID: <20040719171837.GJ19398@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <20040719094437.94336.qmail@web60803.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040719094437.94336.qmail@web60803.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:18:38 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1213 Lines: 30 Quoting bruce coston (jane_ikari@yahoo.com): > using an apolo 133a chipset, i may have a new m/b + case, amazing what > happens when u finally get all the bailing wire attachin yer external > p/s 2 yer "frame," but does anyone already know this board, esp. got a > manual? Fairly nice Slot 1 Coppermine PIII / Celeron (300-800 MHz) motherboard as of three years back. The full name for it is "ASUS P3V4X Apollo Pro 133A". It's unusual in decoupling the memory clock speed from that of the front-side bus. (You can set them separately.) That's mostly useful if you have a big pile of PC100 SDRAM and don't want to immediately go out and buy a new pile of PC133 RAM. > This post BX chipset suppossedly still suffers latency problems vs BX > but i can get mo ram. Memory performance was indeed supposed to be mediocre at best, verging on truly sucky. That's probably the board's worst disadvantage, and it's something to consider. On the other hand, I assume you're getting a good price on it. Looks like here's your motherboard manual: http://www.motherboards.org/files/manuals/1/p3v4x-102.pdf -- Cheers, Live Faust, die Jung. Rick Moen rick@linuxmafia.com From einfeldt@earthlink.net Tue Jul 20 14:08:25 2004 Received: from mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.48]:59227) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1Bn1qW-0001Vw-Hp for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:08:25 -0700 Received: from user-38ldvm4.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.254.196]) by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bn1qa-0005f9-00 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:08:25 -0700 From: Christian Einfeldt To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:12:38 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200407201312.38780.einfeldt@earthlink.net> X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: einfeldt@earthlink.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_NJABL autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:11:51 -0700 Subject: [conspire] Intro X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:08:25 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1235 Lines: 33 Hi Folks, I use SuSE Pro 9.1 in my law practice in SF. I like it so much, I decided to do another film ala Revolution OS and The Code. Our film will be called "The Digital Tipping Point: The Culture of Freedom in Cyberspace", or just DTP for short. We want to film lots of people doing lots of STUFF with FLOSS. Any wacko kind of business, activity, cabal meeting, install fest, bug squashing party is fine. Caveat: I'm a GUI dependent simple end user, so please don't throw lots of at me because it'll go over my head. We have about 100 hours of film, including the international pop music star and now Brazilian Cultural Minister Gilberto Gil; Brian Behlendorf; etc, etc. Our film will be a little different from Revolution OS because we are looking to make this film fun for Joe Sixpack, who is my best friend and regular drinking buddy. If he don't "get it" then I'm gonna drown myself in a vat of beer. So let's get a little wacko and wild. Let's show'em FLOSS can do audio, video, games, converged devices, home entertainment hubs, TiVo, and all the rest of it, as well as the usually OOo type of stuff, too. Thanks for being there! Christian Einfeldt From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 15:59:36 2004 Received: from web60807.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.70]:28095) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BnQ3e-00086I-3O for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:59:36 -0700 Message-ID: <20040721225921.13300.qmail@web60807.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.186.130] by web60807.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:59:21 PDT Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:59:21 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Subject: [conspire] Re: conspire Digest, Vol 14, Issue 11 X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:59:36 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1103 Lines: 38 re[ > with FLOSS. Any > wacko kind of business, activity, cabal meeting, > install fest, bug > squashing party is fine. > > Caveat: I'm a GUI dependent simple end user, so > please don't throw > lots of at me > because it'll go > over my head. > > We have about 100 hours of film, including the > international pop > music star and now Brazilian Cultural Minister > Gilberto Gil; Brian > Behlendorf; etc, etc. > > Our film will be a little different from Revolution > OS because we > are looking to make this film fun for Joe Sixpack, > who is my best > friend and regular drinking buddy. If he don't "get ] possibly the funniest recent-ish incident might b my coming back from my car over Rick M.'s long driveway at the first CABAL meet i took my "box" 2. Daniel was flashing my bios and somehow my keyboard was in pieces on the kitchen floor, i was gone <4 min., we only made 2 errors on re-assembly. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From gpope@pcmagic.net Wed Jul 21 21:34:34 2004 Received: from mail.pcmagic.net ([69.19.155.88]:59034) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BnVHp-00014S-AO for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 21:34:34 -0700 Received: (qmail 90029 invoked by uid 1003); 21 Jul 2004 21:34:46 -0700 Received: from gpope@pcmagic.net by mail.pcmagic.net by uid 168 with qmail-scanner-1.22 (clamdscan: devel-20040601. Clear:RC:1(66.81.124.69):. Processed in 1.474091 secs); 22 Jul 2004 04:34:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?127.0.0.1?) (gpope@66.81.124.69) by mail.pcmagic.net with SMTP; 21 Jul 2004 21:34:45 -0700 Message-ID: <40FF43CF.8020604@pcmagic.net> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 21:34:23 -0700 From: george pope User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20040616 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com, Audry Quay , KFORBESDDS@aol.com, "kbasko1" <"kbasko1"@juno.com>, Jason Lomo , wanda popee X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: gpope@pcmagic.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Cc: Subject: [conspire] Re: conspire Digest, Vol 14, Issue 11 X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 04:34:34 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 3321 Lines: 99 This looks like fun. I have vague ideas on making home videos on "how to build a house", "how to fix cars" and how to find work in Accra for village youth leaving rural village homes and subsistence (no money) farms. These will be transmitted by CDs in towns that have electricity and across the net where there are physical phone lines in rural Ghana. I want to be sure to be there. I hope that this happens at the next Linux Mafia installafest, what 9/14/4? These videos will also be interactively narrated in Ga, Twi, Hausa, and what ever other languages (total 52 in Ghana) that may be spoken in addition to English by skilled artisans that we can bring before our camera. This will also benefit folks in California who may want coaching either in concrete block house construction or in the African languages. george pope conspire-request@linuxmafia.com wrote: >Send conspire mailing list submissions to > conspire@linuxmafia.com > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > conspire-request@linuxmafia.com > >You can reach the person managing the list at > conspire-owner@linuxmafia.com > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of conspire digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Intro (Christian Einfeldt) > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Message: 1 >Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:12:38 -0700 >From: Christian Einfeldt >Subject: [conspire] Intro >To: conspire@linuxmafia.com >Message-ID: <200407201312.38780.einfeldt@earthlink.net> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >Hi Folks, > >I use SuSE Pro 9.1 in my law practice in SF. I like it so much, I >decided to do another film ala Revolution OS and The Code. Our >film will be called "The Digital Tipping Point: The Culture of >Freedom in Cyberspace", or just DTP for short. > >We want to film lots of people doing lots of STUFF with FLOSS. Any >wacko kind of business, activity, cabal meeting, install fest, bug >squashing party is fine. > >Caveat: I'm a GUI dependent simple end user, so please don't throw >lots of at me because it'll go >over my head. > >We have about 100 hours of film, including the international pop >music star and now Brazilian Cultural Minister Gilberto Gil; Brian >Behlendorf; etc, etc. > >Our film will be a little different from Revolution OS because we >are looking to make this film fun for Joe Sixpack, who is my best >friend and regular drinking buddy. If he don't "get it" then I'm >gonna drown myself in a vat of beer. > >So let's get a little wacko and wild. Let's show'em FLOSS can do >audio, video, games, converged devices, home entertainment hubs, >TiVo, and all the rest of it, as well as the usually OOo type of >stuff, too. > >Thanks for being there! > >Christian Einfeldt > > > >------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >conspire mailing list >conspire@linuxmafia.com >http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire > > >End of conspire Digest, Vol 14, Issue 11 >**************************************** > > > > From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Jul 21 21:55:02 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BnVbh-00018r-RN by authid for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 21:55:02 -0700 Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 21:55:01 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: conspire Digest, Vol 14, Issue 11 Message-ID: <20040722045501.GU19398@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <40FF43CF.8020604@pcmagic.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <40FF43CF.8020604@pcmagic.net> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 04:55:02 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 482 Lines: 13 Quoting george pope (gpope@pcmagic.net): > I hope that this happens at the next Linux Mafia installafest, > what 9/14/4? We haven't scheduled an installfest as such in a good long while -- but the next regular CABAL meeting is this Saturday, July 24. -- Cheers, The cynics among us might say: "We laugh, Rick Moen monkeyboys -- Linux IS the mainstream UNIX now! rick@linuxmafia.com MuaHaHaHa!" but that would be rude. -- Jim Dennis From aludal@softhome.net Wed Jul 21 23:27:38 2004 Received: from jive.softhome.net ([66.54.152.27]:40669) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BnX3E-0001e1-Gz for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:27:38 -0700 Received: (qmail 32537 invoked by uid 417); 22 Jul 2004 06:27:37 -0000 Received: from shunt-smtp-out-0 (HELO softhome.net) (172.16.3.12) by shunt-smtp-out-0 with SMTP; 22 Jul 2004 06:27:37 -0000 Received: from localhost ([66.81.67.134]) by softhome.net with esmtp; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 00:27:35 -0600 Message-ID: <000b01c46f05$0366b9c0$0100007f@localdomain> From: "Alexander Udalov" To: "george pope" References: <40FF43CF.8020604@pcmagic.net> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 02:27:56 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: aludal@softhome.net Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: conspire Digest, Vol 14, Issue 11 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.1 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_30,DATE_IN_PAST_12_24, RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 06:27:38 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1503 Lines: 33 ----- Original Message ----- From: "george pope" To: ; "Audry Quay" ; ; "kbasko1" <"kbasko1"@juno.com>; "Jason Lomo" ; "wanda popee" Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 9:34 PM Subject: [conspire] Re: conspire Digest, Vol 14, Issue 11 > This looks like fun. I have vague ideas on making home videos on "how to > build a house", "how to fix cars" and how to find work in Accra for > village youth leaving rural village homes and subsistence (no money) > farms. These will be transmitted by CDs in towns that have electricity > and across the net where there are physical phone lines in rural Ghana. > I want to be sure to be there. I hope that this happens at the next > Linux Mafia installafest, what 9/14/4? These videos will also be > interactively narrated in Ga, Twi, Hausa, and what ever other languages > (total 52 in Ghana) that may be spoken in addition to English by skilled > artisans that we can bring before our camera. This will also benefit > folks in California who may want coaching either in concrete block house > construction or in the African languages. yeah.... right. And it might even be wacko enough for inclusion in that filming project of Christian's, why not? He looks for all kinds of wacko stuff beyond Linux. Talk to him, use your Ga, Twi, or Hausa language for a fuller effect. AU "Good girls run Linux. Bad girls run everywhere." From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Jul 22 00:18:17 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BnXqK-0001sQ-Vr by authid for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 00:18:17 -0700 Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 00:18:16 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: conspire Digest, Vol 14, Issue 11 Message-ID: <20040722071816.GV19398@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <40FF43CF.8020604@pcmagic.net> <000b01c46f05$0366b9c0$0100007f@localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <000b01c46f05$0366b9c0$0100007f@localdomain> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 07:18:17 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 680 Lines: 17 Quoting Alexander Udalov (aludal@softhome.net): > yeah.... right. And it might even be wacko enough for inclusion in that > filming project of Christian's, why not? > He looks for all kinds of wacko stuff beyond Linux. > Talk to him, use your Ga, Twi, or Hausa language for a fuller effect. Sasha! Long time, no hear from. Deirdre has a really funny recorded song she and I would like to play for you, that you especially would enjoy. Any chance you'd feel like wandering up to the CABAL meeting on Saturday? -- Cheers, The Viking's Reminder: Rick Moen Pillage first, _then_ burn. rick@linuxmafia.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Jul 25 18:15:03 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1Bou51-0007Bt-0I by authid for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 18:15:03 -0700 Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 18:15:02 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20040726011502.GV19398@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Subject: [conspire] Call for volunteers: Linux Summer Picnic, 8/07, Sunnyvale X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 01:15:03 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1904 Lines: 51 Thanks to everyone who made yesterday's CABAL meeting such fun. You folks are great! If you've looked at the CABAL or BALE pages, you might have noticed the upcoming Linux Picnic, Saturday, Aug. 7, 11-4, at Baylands Park in Sunnyvale. This is annual tradition started on Linux's 10th birthday, in Aug. 2001. The picnic is in urgent need of volunteers! If you have time to step in and help with any of these things, you'll get a huge karmic reward and much thanks: o Food crew. This is usually what I do (cooking the free-of-charge burgers, hotdogs, and veggieburgers for attendees, etc.). o Setup and tear-down. o Clean-up. o First aid. o Signage (making all the signs that will be needed, and posting them). o Pickup and dropoff of people at almost-nearby public transit spots. o Other creative stuff you might want to do, e.g., running games and activities for attendees. If you think you might want to help, send me mail (rick@linuxmafia.com) with contact information, and I'll pass it along. Baylands Park is a pretty nice place -- right near the Bay off CA-237 at the Caribbean/Lawrence exit, with lots of room for frisbee, volleyball, etc. There are a few restrictions on activities there, on account of it also being a nature preserve. (See the Web site.) Our area will have a half-dozen large BBQ facilities and maybe 20 picnic tables, arranged in a hexagon arrangement. There are power outlets, if people want to bring laptops. There's limited shade, but dress for warm weather and wear sunblock. If you're planning to attend, volunteer or not, you should RSVP via the form at http://www.linuxpicnic.org/rsvp/ . See you there! -- Cheers, The cynics among us might say: "We laugh, Rick Moen monkeyboys -- Linux IS the mainstream UNIX now! rick@linuxmafia.com MuaHaHaHa!" but that would be rude. -- Jim Dennis From einfeldt@earthlink.net Sun Jul 25 18:36:58 2004 Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.84]:65194) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BouQ8-0007Gz-KI; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 18:36:58 -0700 Received: from user-2ivfi79.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.200.233]) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BouQ6-0005Fl-00; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 18:36:50 -0700 From: Christian Einfeldt To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 17:41:45 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <20040726011502.GV19398@linuxmafia.com> In-Reply-To: <20040726011502.GV19398@linuxmafia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200407251741.45675.einfeldt@earthlink.net> X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: einfeldt@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [conspire] Call for volunteers: Linux Summer Picnic, 8/07, Sunnyvale Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; boundary="Boundary-00=_JNFBBKkGEBSP7g8" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Cc: Rick Moen X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 01:36:58 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 11604 Lines: 184 --Boundary-00=_JNFBBKkGEBSP7g8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On Sunday 25 July 2004 18:15, Rick Moen wrote: Hi Folks, > If you've looked at the CABAL or BALE pages, you might have > noticed the upcoming Linux Picnic, Saturday, Aug. 7, 11-4, at > Baylands Park in Sunnyvale. This is annual tradition started on > Linux's 10th birthday, in Aug. 2001. > > The picnic is in urgent need of volunteers! I'll volunteer to film it and try to include it in my documentary film, The Digital Tipping Point: The Culture of Freedom in Cyberspace. ;-) Seriously, if people don't mind, I would like to arrive there with my cameraman and the director of DTP, Paul Donahue. We basically would like to use this picnic as an opportunity to film folks talking about why they like GNU/Linux, what changes FLOSS will have on the world, why they contribute code, stuff like that. Think of it as an update to Revolution OS and The Code movies. A little bit about my background: I was introduced to FLOSS by Holden Aust, who then introduced me to Josh Berkus and a bunch of other people in the FLOSS community. Holden and Josh helped me get up and running on SuSE Pro, and I love it, and I love the community spirit. So, as a way of thanking Holden and Josh and all the other hackers who have contributed to the stuff which a GUI-dependent simple end user like myself gets to use for a very low cost, I decided to make this movie with award-winning documentary directory Paul Donahue. So if you are interested in participating, and don't mind being filmed, please come prepared with stories about what you like about FLOSS, the cool things you've seen it do, and how it is going to help humanity learn how good it is to share. I have attached an OOo document summarizing our film, if you'd like more info. Thanks! Christian Einfeldt 415-351-1300 --Boundary-00=_JNFBBKkGEBSP7g8 Content-Type: application/vnd.sun.xml.writer; name="OOO_digital_tipping_point_executive_summary_cabal.sxw" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OOO_digital_tipping_point_executive_summary_cabal.sxw" UEsDBBQAAAAAAGAE+jDhpTE5HgAAAB4AAAAIAAAAbWltZXR5cGVhcHBsaWNhdGlvbi92bmQuc3Vu LnhtbC53cml0ZXJQSwMEFAAAAAAAYAT6MHNhFFIWAAAAFgAAAAwAAABsYXlvdXQtY2FjaGUBAAEA cBIAAABQDQAAGAwAAACBAAAAUEsDBBQACAAIAGAE+jAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALAAAAY29udGVudC54 bWy9WN1uGzcWvu9TsLooEkDy2AkWaCLbRWzZiHelWIiVdPeqoGY4GtYcckpyJKtXfZDty/VJ+h1y ZiT5R0aRNjeWRB6e3+98h/TxD3elYkthnTT6pHd0cNhjQqcmk3px0vs0uxx83/vh9Jvjb0fX57P/ TS+YyXOZireZSetSaD9Ijfb4ZNNPZ+Orc9YbJMl1JfR1EDswdpEko9mIxd+j5hSDnSS5+NBjvajv IPNZ7/T4KeXwUbu3cfekV3hfvU0SAzNmY+bV4eFhEn/3mgPOr9V++SDRintx5/dKk0AnzOfP6A4S rXhm+WqvNAkg5618bjrp1Wp1sHodJI/evHmT/PdmnFwaW/LOlzsl9e2T8mG3FdV1ORd2vyfc8528 uOXiMeUxgcvO5bTgdn/+gsQmI6+zZzLyOmuFEWzxRIDfJxNshj+T8SZ9ttyrnAS6+FIrq/2eR5Fe 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IYyDlbMcm/+mdFdu4N5QuDu2IZb3dyXm+DEutku8ebqrX1BLBwjJNB3hEwEAAFIDAABQSwECFAAU AAAAAABgBPow4aUxOR4AAAAeAAAACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAbWltZXR5cGVQSwECFAAUAAAA AABgBPowc2EUUhYAAAAWAAAADAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABEAAAAbGF5b3V0LWNhY2hlUEsBAhQAFAAI AAgAYAT6MBEmKdZbBwAASxUAAAsAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAhAAAAGNvbnRlbnQueG1sUEsBAhQAFAAI AAgAYAT6MFCgopXbBQAAbhsAAAoAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGAgAAHN0eWxlcy54bWxQSwECFAAUAAAA AABgBPowvYLsNy8EAAAvBAAACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAArDgAAbWV0YS54bWxQSwECFAAUAAgACABg BPow3l52j0sFAAAqGgAADAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACAEgAAc2V0dGluZ3MueG1sUEsBAhQAFAAIAAgA YAT6MMk0HeETAQAAUgMAABUAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABRgAAE1FVEEtSU5GL21hbmlmZXN0LnhtbFBL BQYAAAAABwAHAJQBAABbGQAAAAA= --Boundary-00=_JNFBBKkGEBSP7g8-- From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Jul 25 18:51:12 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1Boue0-0007LY-Ax by authid for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 18:51:12 -0700 Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 18:51:12 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Call for volunteers: Linux Summer Picnic, 8/07, Sunnyvale Message-ID: <20040726015112.GB24524@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <20040726011502.GV19398@linuxmafia.com> <200407251741.45675.einfeldt@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200407251741.45675.einfeldt@earthlink.net> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 01:51:12 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 690 Lines: 19 Quoting Christian Einfeldt (einfeldt@earthlink.net): > I'll volunteer to film it and try to include it in my documentary > film, The Digital Tipping Point: The Culture of Freedom in > Cyberspace. ;-) I personally think that would be great. So, I've passed along your posting to the Linux Picnic volunteers' mailing list, to ask the organisers' reactions. If you'd like to talk to the organisers directly (which might be a good idea), you'll want to join the LinuxPicnic mailing list. Info. at: http://www.sbay.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxpicnic -- Cheers, Rick Moen This .signature intentionally left blank. rick@linuxmafia.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Mon Jul 26 23:07:42 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BpL7m-0007eB-3N by authid for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 23:07:42 -0700 Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 23:07:42 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20040727060741.GK24524@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Subject: [conspire] Getting rid of monitors X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 06:07:43 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 5176 Lines: 135 You might be like most computer users in having a lingering problem you're not really aware of -- or, if you're aware of it, have been putting off until later. That's the problem of old picture-tube-type monitors. A couple of years ago, all the places you can (lawfully) get rid of monitors started charging significant surcharges for disposal service, above and beyond regular fees, on grounds that monitors tend to include some seriously nasty poisonous chemicals (such as selenium). I've noticed the topic has started to come up more often on Bay Area technical mailing list, as people start to realise they have a problem. The _other_ shoe dropped about the same time: LCD panels suddenly became both good and cheap -- in addition to being lighter and space-saving. Have a look around your local bank branch. See any tube-type monitors? Probably not. The bulk of corporate America has already made the switch. You probably will, too -- at which point you'll be looking to unload that heavy old thing (or maybe the half-dozen you have kicking around the house). And the recycling fees can only get worse. Therefore, I thought I'd post a couple of suggested (local) solutions. One's conditionally free; the other's absolutely free through Labour Day. Details follow. Me? Deirdre and I have three 17" tube monitors left -- all functional, but none in actual daily service because we prefer to use our laptops as consoles. The three dinosaurs sit wedged into a vertical pile in the living room, for borrowing by visiting CABAL members or emergency use if needed on one of our (normally "headless") server machines. But I'll tell you: If any of those _were_ smaller than 17", or worked less than perfectly, I'd be unloading them in a hurry (lawfully). So, you might consider if that's the boat _you're_ in, and consider these options: Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 19:22:27 -0700 (PDT) From: vraptor@employees.org To: "Guy B. Purcell" Cc: baylisa@baylisa.org Subject: Re: recycling Tossing my two cents in on this a month+ late, but useful info for others, I hope.... Hackette Electronics in San Jose is a 100% recycle facility. They will take electronics in any quantity without disposal fees, with the exception of monitors. If you bring monitors with other gear of sufficient quantity, they do not require a disposal fee. If you bring in monitors alone, they charge $10/monitor. This fee is $5 less than the other recycle facilities in the South Bay that I am aware of. I took all my old dead x86 and printer stuff down there, when I recently did a major clean-up in preparation for my move. I know a lot of sysadmins are pack rats, so this might make the process of winnowing a little easier. :-) =Nadine= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:40:20 -0700 From: Ross Bernheim To: Rick Moen Subject: Re: Recycling monitors On Monday, July 26, 2004, at 05:56 PM, Rick Moen wrote: > Would you mind summarising the deal Office Depot is offering on > accepting monitors? I'd like to post it to conspire@linuxmafia.com, > per your suggestion on Saturday. Got old electronics sitting around the house that the trashman won't take? Don't want to pay to have it recycled at the dump? Has Office Depot got a deal for you! The following is from Office Depot's Web site. Now through Labor Day, bring your unwanted PC, laptop, printer, handheld, cell phone -- or any other qualifying product -- to your nearest Office Depot.* We'll send them to HP's recycling plant, where they'll be processed into material that will be used to make new products. Bring in products made by any vendor -- not just HP. Best of all, this service is provided absolutely FREE of charge. Each customer may return one (1) piece of approved equipment to an Office Depot retail store per day. Office Depot will not accept and reserves the express right to reject all other types of electronic equipment, including, but not limited to, stand-alone VCRs, TVs (greater than 27" measured diagonally), DVDs, and any product that presents a hazardous condition, including monitors with broken glass. Customers will not receive compensation from Office Depot for approved equipment. Qualifying Products: PCs, Mice, Keyboards Handhelds/PDAs Monitors Flat Panel Displays Laser & Inkjet Printers Scanners All-in-Ones Digital Cameras Fax Machines Desktop Copiers Cell Phones TVs (27" and smaller only, no consoles) TV/VCR combos 27" and smaller *Offer is limited to one product solution, such as a PC, monitor, mouse and keyboard or one individual product, such as a PDA , per customer per day. No TV consoles, furniture, laptop batteries, rechargeable batteries, or electric appliances, please. Program available in the continental U.S. only. CUSTOMER REPRESENTS AND WARRANTS THAT CUSTOMER OWNS THE PRODUCT PRESENTED TO OFFICE DEPOT AND THAT ALL PERSONALLY IDENTIFIABLE INFORMATION HAS BEEN REMOVED FROM THE PRODUCT(S). NEITHER OFFICE DEPOT NOR ITS THIRD PARTY RECYCLER ARE [sic] RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY DATA THAT IS LEFT ON APPROVED EQUIPMENT. Enjoy! Ross From bill@wards.dyndns.org Tue Jul 27 11:32:27 2004 Received: from smtp2.sasquatch.com ([216.218.236.166]:60763) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BpWkQ-0002bh-ML for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:32:27 -0700 Received: (qmail 19399 invoked by uid 7794); 27 Jul 2004 17:36:28 -0000 Received: from bill@wards.dyndns.org by smtp2.sasquatch.com by uid 7791 with qmail-scanner-1.16 (sophie: 2.19/3.81. Clear:. Processed in 0.024017 secs); 27 Jul 2004 17:36:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO komodo.home.wards.net) (colleen@24.6.189.52) by smtp2.sasquatch.com with SMTP; 27 Jul 2004 17:36:27 -0000 Received: from bill by komodo.home.wards.net with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BpVrs-0008Ik-00; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:36:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <16646.37504.635748.547920@komodo.home.wards.net> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:36:00 -0700 From: bill@wards.net (William R Ward) To: Rick Moen In-Reply-To: <20040727060741.GK24524@linuxmafia.com> References: <20040727060741.GK24524@linuxmafia.com> X-Mailer: VM 7.03 under Emacs 21.2.1 Sender: Bill Ward X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: bill@wards.dyndns.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [conspire] Getting rid of monitors X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.7 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 18:32:28 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 581 Lines: 14 Many surplus computer stores will also take old computer equipment. For example I plan to take a bunch of stuff down to Surplus Computer (formerly Software 'N Stuff). Last time they had a sidewalk sale the guy told me I could bring it by any time and what they can't sell they will have recycled. I think WeirdStuff takes it too. --Bill. -- William R Ward bill@wards.net http://www.wards.net/~bill/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Movies are like life with all the dull parts left out." - Alfred Hitchcock From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Jul 27 12:07:08 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BpXI4-0002q6-P3 by authid for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:07:08 -0700 Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:07:08 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Getting rid of monitors Message-ID: <20040727190708.GD19398@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <20040727060741.GK24524@linuxmafia.com> <16646.37504.635748.547920@komodo.home.wards.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <16646.37504.635748.547920@komodo.home.wards.net> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 19:07:09 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 800 Lines: 18 Quoting William R Ward (bill@wards.net): > Many surplus computer stores will also take old computer equipment. > For example I plan to take a bunch of stuff down to Surplus Computer > (formerly Software 'N Stuff). Last time they had a sidewalk sale the > guy told me I could bring it by any time and what they can't sell they > will have recycled. Many such places will charge a special disposal fee for monitors. (Thus my point.) Some don't. (Starting Nov. 1, Californians will also pay a statutory surcharge of $6-10 on initial retail purchase of any computer or television video device having a video screen -- toxic contents or not -- to help fund safe disposal of _old_ monitors. Run your computer headless, and save money! ;-> See: http://www.ciwmb.ca.gov/Electronics/Act2003/ ) From deirdre@deirdre.net Tue Jul 27 12:18:30 2004 Received: from emperor.deirdre.org ([198.144.195.190]:50542) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BpXSz-0002vQ-27; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:18:30 -0700 Received: from emperor.deirdre.org (deirdre@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by emperor.deirdre.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Debian-7) with ESMTP id i6RJO3Rt028768 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:24:03 -0700 Received: from localhost (deirdre@localhost) by emperor.deirdre.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Debian-7) with ESMTP id i6RJO3bt028764; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:24:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: emperor.deirdre.org: deirdre owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:24:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Deirdre Saoirse Moen X-X-Sender: To: William R Ward In-Reply-To: <16646.37504.635748.547920@komodo.home.wards.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: deirdre@deirdre.net Subject: Re: [conspire] Getting rid of monitors Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Cc: Rick Moen , conspire@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 19:18:30 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 713 Lines: 21 On Tue, 27 Jul 2004, William R Ward wrote: > Many surplus computer stores will also take old computer equipment. > For example I plan to take a bunch of stuff down to Surplus Computer > (formerly Software 'N Stuff). Last time they had a sidewalk sale the > guy told me I could bring it by any time and what they can't sell they > will have recycled. I think WeirdStuff takes it too. Free tech recycling (sorry about it being MSNBC, but it was the first google hit): http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5437079/ Through Sept 6 only. -- _Deirdre web: http://deirdre.net blog: http://deirdre.org/blog/ yarn: http://fuzzyorange.com cat's blog: http://fuzzyorange.com/vsd/ "Memes are a hoax! Pass it on!" From einfeldt@earthlink.net Tue Jul 27 12:36:54 2004 Received: from bittern.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.119]:50537) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BpXkm-00031E-Me for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:36:54 -0700 Received: from user-38lc1bt.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.5.125]) by bittern.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BpXkq-0006xE-00 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:36:53 -0700 From: Christian Einfeldt To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:42:07 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <20040727060741.GK24524@linuxmafia.com> In-Reply-To: <20040727060741.GK24524@linuxmafia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200407271142.08660.einfeldt@earthlink.net> X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: einfeldt@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [conspire] Getting rid of monitors Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_NJABL, RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 19:36:54 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 6948 Lines: 172 On Monday 26 July 2004 23:07, Rick Moen wrote: > You might be like most computer users in having a lingering > problem you're not really aware of -- or, if you're aware of it, > have been putting off until later. That's the problem of old > picture-tube-type monitors. Wow, the irony of all this is just killing me. We just came back from Brazil for filming for our movie, the Digital Tipping Point, and there we had met a former MIT professor who is now teaching art AND physics together in Uruguay. They are using old hardware, disassembling it, and rebuilding powerful boxes from it! But they can't build monitors! I would absolutely LOVE to be able to coordinate the deliver of those monitors to people in the Bay Area, because there are tons and tons of people whom I know need computers. Talk about Microsoft's perfect storm. Free or cheap software in the form of FLOSS. Free or cheap content in the form of Creative Commons. Free or cheap hardware. I have been considering starting a non-profit to stop this perfectly good hardware from getting dumped into landfills. There is a place in the east bay called otxwest, but they only do windows. I'd love to do the same thing with FLOSS. When I think of what we could do in terms of getting FLOSS to the developing world with this perfectly good hardware, it just kills me, having just met those folks who have the gnu linux skills, the space to store stuff, they have the software, they just need the hardware, and KABOOM, software libre explosion! Anybody know anyone with a huge storage space? > > A couple of years ago, all the places you can (lawfully) get rid > of monitors started charging significant surcharges for disposal > service, above and beyond regular fees, on grounds that monitors > tend to include some seriously nasty poisonous chemicals (such as > selenium). I've noticed the topic has started to come up more > often on Bay Area technical mailing list, as people start to > realise they have a problem. > > The _other_ shoe dropped about the same time: LCD panels > suddenly became both good and cheap -- in addition to being > lighter and space-saving. Have a look around your local bank > branch. See any tube-type monitors? Probably not. The bulk of > corporate America has already made the switch. You probably > will, too -- at which point you'll be looking to unload that > heavy old thing (or maybe the half-dozen you have kicking around > the house). And the recycling fees can only get worse. > > Therefore, I thought I'd post a couple of suggested (local) > solutions. One's conditionally free; the other's absolutely free > through Labour Day. Details follow. > > Me? Deirdre and I have three 17" tube monitors left -- all > functional, but none in actual daily service because we prefer to > use our laptops as consoles. The three dinosaurs sit wedged into > a vertical pile in the living room, for borrowing by visiting > CABAL members or emergency use if needed on one of our (normally > "headless") server machines. > > But I'll tell you: If any of those _were_ smaller than 17", or > worked less than perfectly, I'd be unloading them in a hurry > (lawfully). So, you might consider if that's the boat _you're_ > in, and consider these options: > > > > Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 19:22:27 -0700 (PDT) > From: vraptor@employees.org > To: "Guy B. Purcell" > Cc: baylisa@baylisa.org > Subject: Re: recycling > > Tossing my two cents in on this a month+ late, but useful info > for others, I hope.... > > > > Hackette Electronics in San Jose is a 100% recycle facility. > They will take electronics in any quantity without disposal fees, > with the exception of monitors. > > If you bring monitors with other gear of sufficient quantity, > they do not require a disposal fee. If you bring in monitors > alone, they charge $10/monitor. This fee is $5 less than the > other recycle facilities in the South Bay that I am aware of. > > I took all my old dead x86 and printer stuff down there, when I > recently did a major clean-up in preparation for my move. I know > a lot of sysadmins are pack rats, so this might make the process > of winnowing a little easier. :-) > > =Nadine= > > > > > Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:40:20 -0700 > From: Ross Bernheim > To: Rick Moen > Subject: Re: Recycling monitors > > On Monday, July 26, 2004, at 05:56 PM, Rick Moen wrote: > > Would you mind summarising the deal Office Depot is offering on > > accepting monitors? I'd like to post it to > > conspire@linuxmafia.com, per your suggestion on Saturday. > > Got old electronics sitting around the house that the trashman > won't take? Don't want to pay to have it recycled at the dump? > Has Office Depot got a deal for you! > > The following is from Office Depot's Web site. > > > Now through Labor Day, bring your unwanted PC, laptop, printer, > handheld, cell phone -- or any other qualifying product -- to > your nearest Office Depot.* We'll send them to HP's recycling > plant, where they'll be processed into material that will be used > to make new products. Bring in products made by any vendor -- > not just HP. Best of all, this service is provided absolutely > FREE of charge. > > Each customer may return one (1) piece of approved equipment to > an Office Depot retail store per day. Office Depot will not > accept and reserves the express right to reject all other types > of electronic equipment, including, but not limited to, > stand-alone VCRs, TVs (greater than 27" measured diagonally), > DVDs, and any product that presents a hazardous condition, > including monitors with broken glass. Customers will not receive > compensation from Office Depot for approved equipment. > > Qualifying Products: > PCs, Mice, Keyboards > Handhelds/PDAs > Monitors > Flat Panel Displays > Laser & Inkjet Printers > Scanners > All-in-Ones > Digital Cameras > Fax Machines > Desktop Copiers > Cell Phones > TVs (27" and smaller only, no consoles) > TV/VCR combos 27" and smaller > > *Offer is limited to one product solution, such as a PC, monitor, > mouse and keyboard or one individual product, such as a PDA , per > customer per day. No TV consoles, furniture, laptop batteries, > rechargeable batteries, or electric appliances, please. Program > available in the continental U.S. only. > > CUSTOMER REPRESENTS AND WARRANTS THAT CUSTOMER OWNS THE PRODUCT > PRESENTED TO OFFICE DEPOT AND THAT ALL PERSONALLY IDENTIFIABLE > INFORMATION HAS BEEN REMOVED FROM THE PRODUCT(S). NEITHER OFFICE > DEPOT NOR ITS THIRD PARTY RECYCLER ARE [sic] RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY > DATA THAT IS LEFT ON APPROVED EQUIPMENT. > > Enjoy! > > > Ross > > > > _______________________________________________ > conspire mailing list > conspire@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Jul 27 12:53:08 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BpY0Z-00037A-VZ by authid for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:53:08 -0700 Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:53:07 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Getting rid of monitors Message-ID: <20040727195307.GE19398@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <20040727060741.GK24524@linuxmafia.com> <200407271142.08660.einfeldt@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200407271142.08660.einfeldt@earthlink.net> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 19:53:08 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1148 Lines: 30 Quoting Christian Einfeldt (einfeldt@earthlink.net): > Wow, the irony of all this is just killing me. Oh, maybe I didn't make clear that I wouldn't just _throw away_ any monitor of mine that's even barely repairable, let alone functional. My 17" ViewSonic has been doctored back into operation twice, for example. But there comes a time when they have to be recycled. Certainly, people should not seek to merely throw away functional or slightly defective monitors: There are plenty of organisations that will be very glad to accept them and find ways to use them. But that's a wholly different discussion from what I was talking about (or trying to). > I would absolutely LOVE to be able to coordinate the deliver of > those monitors to people in the Bay Area, because there are tons > and tons of people whom I know need computers. When my monitors have collapsed, you probably won't want 'em. ;-> > Anybody know anyone with a huge storage space? I can rent some and sub-lease it to you. How much can you afford? ;-> -- Cheers, find / -user your -name base -print | xargs chown us:us Rick Moen rick@linuxmafia.com From einfeldt@earthlink.net Tue Jul 27 15:50:19 2004 Received: from cardinal.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.121.226]:35456) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1Bpalx-00044W-M5 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:50:19 -0700 Received: from user-2ivfnd6.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.221.166]) by cardinal.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bpam2-0007Dx-00 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:50:19 -0700 From: Christian Einfeldt To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:55:35 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <20040727060741.GK24524@linuxmafia.com> <200407271142.08660.einfeldt@earthlink.net> <20040727195307.GE19398@linuxmafia.com> In-Reply-To: <20040727195307.GE19398@linuxmafia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200407271455.35564.einfeldt@earthlink.net> X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: einfeldt@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [conspire] Getting rid of monitors Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:50:19 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1309 Lines: 38 On Tuesday 27 July 2004 12:53, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Christian Einfeldt (einfeldt@earthlink.net): > > Wow, the irony of all this is just killing me. > > Oh, maybe I didn't make clear that I wouldn't just _throw away_ > any monitor of mine that's even barely repairable, let alone > functional. My 17" ViewSonic has been doctored back into > operation twice, for example. But there comes a time when they > have to be recycled. yup. > > Certainly, people should not seek to merely throw away functional > or slightly defective monitors: There are plenty of > organisations that will be very glad to accept them and find ways > to use them. But that's a wholly different discussion from what > I was talking about (or trying to). > > > I would absolutely LOVE to be able to coordinate the deliver of > > those monitors to people in the Bay Area, because there are > > tons and tons of people whom I know need computers. > > When my monitors have collapsed, you probably won't want 'em. Heh. > ;-> > > > Anybody know anyone with a huge storage space? > > I can rent some and sub-lease it to you. How much can you > afford? ;-> I'll be glad to provide you with all the high quality, open source software that you will ever need, plus the pick of the litter on hardware that comes in. ;-) From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Jul 27 15:57:18 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1Bpaso-00047Y-Lb by authid for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:57:18 -0700 Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:57:18 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Getting rid of monitors Message-ID: <20040727225718.GG19398@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <20040727060741.GK24524@linuxmafia.com> <200407271142.08660.einfeldt@earthlink.net> <20040727195307.GE19398@linuxmafia.com> <200407271455.35564.einfeldt@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200407271455.35564.einfeldt@earthlink.net> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:57:19 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 499 Lines: 13 Quoting Christian Einfeldt (einfeldt@earthlink.net): > I'll be glad to provide you with all the high quality, open source > software that you will ever need, plus the pick of the litter on > hardware that comes in. ;-) Can I get source code, too? Such a deal! -- Cheers, The cynics among us might say: "We laugh, Rick Moen monkeyboys -- Linux IS the mainstream UNIX now! rick@linuxmafia.com MuaHaHaHa!" but that would be rude. -- Jim Dennis From einfeldt@earthlink.net Wed Jul 28 13:50:51 2004 Received: from bittern.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.119]:60726) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BpvNo-0002Uj-TS for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:50:51 -0700 Received: from user-38lc0rm.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.3.118]) by bittern.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BpvNt-0002Wk-00 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:50:45 -0700 From: Christian Einfeldt To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:56:05 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <20040727060741.GK24524@linuxmafia.com> <200407271455.35564.einfeldt@earthlink.net> <20040727225718.GG19398@linuxmafia.com> In-Reply-To: <20040727225718.GG19398@linuxmafia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200407281256.05600.einfeldt@earthlink.net> X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: einfeldt@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [conspire] Getting rid of monitors Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.7 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_NJABL, RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:50:52 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 477 Lines: 12 On Tuesday 27 July 2004 15:57, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Christian Einfeldt (einfeldt@earthlink.net): > > I'll be glad to provide you with all the high quality, open > > source software that you will ever need, plus the pick of the > > litter on hardware that comes in. ;-) > > Can I get source code, too? Such a deal! Probably, but I wouldn't know source code if it came up and bit me in the booty, but I could direct you to someone who would know how to get it! From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Sat Jul 31 16:56:32 2004 Received: from web60806.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.69]:47171) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1Br3iD-0005h9-6n for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 16:56:32 -0700 Message-ID: <20040731235626.47162.qmail@web60806.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.186.33] by web60806.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 16:56:26 PDT Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 16:56:26 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Subject: [conspire] linuxworld X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:56:32 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 313 Lines: 11 iff i can get a free pass w/o inconveniencing anybody, i'd like 2go2 some/all of it, i hate navigating their site though. maybe i should post to a bigger list though. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Aug 03 11:09:27 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1Bs3j5-00052I-MT by authid for ; Tue, 03 Aug 2004 11:09:27 -0700 Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 11:09:27 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20040803180927.GJ5923@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Subject: [conspire] Call for volunteer (again): Linux Picnic this Saturday X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 18:09:28 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 481 Lines: 13 I mentioned before about this coming Saturday's Linux Picnic at Baylands Park in Sunnyvale: The picnic still needs volunteers. If you are thinking of coming to the picnic (free food!), and are willing to join me in flipping burgers, the sign-up form is at http://www.linuxpicnic.org/volunteer/ . Please do: The picnic's a lot of fun, and volunteering does _not_ involve a lot of work. Thanks! The picnic will be 11-4 on Saturday. http://www.linuxpicnic.org/ has details. From gpope@pcmagic.net Tue Aug 03 12:05:03 2004 Received: from mail.pcmagic.net ([69.19.155.88]:62998) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1Bs4an-0005Nf-AW for ; Tue, 03 Aug 2004 12:05:02 -0700 Received: (qmail 34633 invoked by uid 1003); 3 Aug 2004 12:05:22 -0700 Received: from gpope@pcmagic.net by mail.pcmagic.net by uid 168 with qmail-scanner-1.22 (clamdscan: devel-20040726. Clear:RC:1(66.81.72.69):. Processed in 0.53829 secs); 03 Aug 2004 19:05:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?127.0.0.1?) (gpope@66.81.72.69) by mail.pcmagic.net with SMTP; 3 Aug 2004 12:05:21 -0700 Message-ID: <410FE1DB.8020000@pcmagic.net> Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 12:04:59 -0700 From: george pope User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20040616 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: gpope@pcmagic.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Wed Aug 20 09:38:54 PDT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Subject: [conspire] Re: conspire Digest, Vol 15, Issue 2 X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 19:05:03 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1811 Lines: 70 Sorry I can't come. george conspire-request@linuxmafia.com wrote: >Send conspire mailing list submissions to > conspire@linuxmafia.com > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > conspire-request@linuxmafia.com > >You can reach the person managing the list at > conspire-owner@linuxmafia.com > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of conspire digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Call for volunteer (again): Linux Picnic this Saturday > (Rick Moen) > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Message: 1 >Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 11:09:27 -0700 >From: Rick Moen >Subject: [conspire] Call for volunteer (again): Linux Picnic this > Saturday >To: conspire@linuxmafia.com >Message-ID: <20040803180927.GJ5923@linuxmafia.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > >I mentioned before about this coming Saturday's Linux Picnic at Baylands >Park in Sunnyvale: The picnic still needs volunteers. > >If you are thinking of coming to the picnic (free food!), and are >willing to join me in flipping burgers, the sign-up form is at >http://www.linuxpicnic.org/volunteer/ . Please do: The picnic's a lot >of fun, and volunteering does _not_ involve a lot of work. Thanks! > >The picnic will be 11-4 on Saturday. http://www.linuxpicnic.org/ has >details. > > > > > >------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >conspire mailing list >conspire@linuxmafia.com >http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire > > >End of conspire Digest, Vol 15, Issue 2 >*************************************** > > > > From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Aug 03 19:38:09 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BsBfN-0007FX-2g by authid for ; Tue, 03 Aug 2004 19:38:09 -0700 Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 19:38:09 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20040804023808.GA27543@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Subject: [conspire] LinuxWorld and EFF FreedomFest: Wednesday events X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 02:38:09 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 7014 Lines: 213 Stuff occurring tomorrow at / next to Moscone Convention Center in S.F.: o LWCE floor exhibits (not just corporate salesdroids; there's also a "dot-org pavillion" area, as usual), open 10-5 o The last two of the conference's five keynotes o Several informal BoF (Birds of a Feather) gatherings o EFF / Red Hat / LinuxWorld co-sponsored FreedomFest concert outdoors at Yerba Buena Gardens, 5-8 PM. I may see folks on the lawn at FreedomFest until 6 PM, at which point I'm off to a private dinner. See you there! If you don't yet have an LWCE exhibits-only pass, you can get one free of charge by going to the registration page (http://www.linuxworldexpo.com/live/12/register) and entering Priority Code N0367. (This is one of several codes floating around. Without it, I think they want to ding you $25.) The show floor (exhibits) will be open 10-5 tomorrow, and 10-4 Thursday. With an exhibits pass, one could have gone (time permitting) to the one amusing event of the whole thing, the Golden Penguin Bowl quiz competition. Unfortunately, that was this afternoon, 4:30-5:30 PM -- so we missed it. Remaining keynotes (not my cuppa, but maybe yours): Wed. 11:00 - 11:45 AM: Nick Donofrio, Snr. VP of Tech. and Manufacturing at IBM: "Linux Innovation: Driving the On Demand Era" Wed. 2:30 - 3:15 PM: Alfred Chuang, founder/chairman/CEO at BEA, Inc.: "Building Competitive Advantage with Linux" There's a Birds of a Feather (BOF) gathering tomorrow, BOF #B8: B8: Fedora Community Gathering 08/04/2004, 5:15 PM - 6:45 PM Speaker: Jack Aboutboul, Community Developer, Fedora Project. Join other Fedora community members, as well as developers, for a community chat session. All topics welcome. That sounds like the best of them, to me -- but here are the others for tomorrow (e.g., the Samba one, which is always good): B9: High Capacity Linux File Server Management Implementation Issues 08/04/2004, 5:15 PM - 6:45 PM Speakers: Corey Shields, Unix Systems Support Group, Indiana University. Scott Kveton, Program Director - Open Source Lab, Oregon State University. Everyone has different specific needs for their high-capacity file servers. However, people can learn from others quicker and see how things are dealt with for specific instances if given the chance. This discussion will be about how other folks have implemented their high-capacity Linux file servers. B10: F/OSS for Non-Profits: What's Real and What's Missing 08/04/2004, 5:15 PM - 6:45 PM Speakers: Bradley M. Kuhn, Executive Director, Free Software Foundation. Allen Gunn, Co-Director, Aspiration: Better Tools for a Better World. Katrin Verclas, Co-Director, Aspiration: Better Tools for a Better World. Non-profit organizations are the natural allies of the Free Software and Open Source Movements, yet few are using Free Software in their daily operations. This BOF will be a brain-storming discussion about what types of applications are needed by non-profit organizations and how we might move and inspire Free Software developers to work on applications that will benefit non-profit organizations. B11: Lustre 08/04/2004, 5:15 PM - 6:45 PM Speaker: Robert Read, Cluster File Systems, Inc. This BOF is a general, open discussion about deploying Lustre. What are "known good" and hairy cases, and what future releases will contain which improvements? Additionally we will explain what improvements CFS has made and is making to other file systems, for HSM, snap shots, faster I/O, etc. B12: Linux Games 08/04/2004, 5:15 PM - 6:45 PM Speaker: Dee-Ann LeBlanc, Gaming Industry Editor, LinuxWorld Magazine. B13: Wine Project 08/04/2004, 5:15 PM - 6:45 PM Speaker: Jeremy White, CEO, CodeWeavers, Inc. Come talk about the Wine Project - where it's been, what it can do, and where it's headed. Several Wine developers will be on hand for the BOF, so you can hear it from the horse's mouth. B14: Linux in the Datacenter 08/04/2004, 5:15 PM - 6:45 PM Speaker: Foster Hinshaw, CTO and Co-Founder, Netezza Corp. Linux offers organizations looking to implement a data warehousing solution several significant advantages, including ease of installation and significant cost advantages. This discussion will focus around the role of Linux in the datacenter and will address issues such as: What key advantages do developers find in Linux?; How does Linux enable the BI appliances to be developed?; Does Linux belong in the datacenter?; and Can Windows meet the same requirements of BI appliances that Linux meets? B18: PostgreSQL 08/04/2004, 5:15 PM - 6:45 PM Speakers: Josh Berkus, PostgreSQL Core Team, OSDL. Mark Wong, Test and Performance Group, OSDL. This BOF is for all current users of PostgreSQL and all those considering its use. We will answer questions about current PostgreSQL trends and go over the major features in our next release. The group will be lead by Josh Berkus, one of the PostgreSQL Core Team. Mark Wong of OSDL will also discuss lessons learned from implementing a test workload suite on PostgreSQL, Linux 2.6, and LVM. B19: Linux and the Small and Medium Business Linux and the Small and Medium Business 08/04/2004, 5:15 PM - 6:45 PM Speaker: Sandra K. Johnson, STSM & CTO, Global SMB, Systems and Technology Group, IBM. This BOF will discuss the requirements, needs, and issues of the small and medium business, and how they can be addressed, from a technical perspective by Linux. B20: Samba 08/04/2004, 5:15 PM - 6:45 PM Speakers: Jeremy Allison, Samba Co-Developer, HP. Gerald Carter, Developer, Samba Team/Hewlett-Packard. John H. Terpstra, CEO, Primastasys, Inc. This BOF is a general, open discussion about Samba. Where does Samba work well, where does it fail, and what future improvements should we make? Additionally we will explain what improvements we are currently planning and participate in a open dialog with our users on what they wish to see in Samba. There's also a concert outdoors at Yerba Buena Gardens, across the street: EFF Freedom Fest Concert LinuxWorld Attendees Are Invited! EFF Freedom Fest Concert Yerba Buena Gardens August 4th, 2004 5:00 pm - 8:00 pm Join the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) and four Bay Area bands for an afternoon of live music and outdoor fun at EFF's Freedom Fest 2004, sponsored by Red Hat. The outdoor concert will be held at Yerba Buena Gardens on Wednesday, August 4th, 2004 from 5 p.m. to 8 p.m. just across the street from the LinuxWorld Conference at Moscone Center. The Electronic Frontier Foundation is the leading civil liberties organization working to protect rights in the digital world. Founded in 1990, EFF actively encourages and challenges industry and government to support free expression and privacy online. EFF is a member-supported organization and maintains one of the most-linked-to websites in the world at http://www.eff.org/. Red Hat is the world's most trusted provider of Linux and open source technology. From skiffworks@earthlink.net Sun Aug 08 09:20:42 2004 Received: from albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.120]:59209) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BtqPU-0004VI-A7 for ; Sun, 08 Aug 2004 09:20:42 -0700 Received: from cpe-24-221-189-101.ca.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.189.101] helo=skiffworks) by albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BtqPa-0006kg-00 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Sun, 08 Aug 2004 09:20:42 -0700 Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 09:23:07 -0700 From: Bill Stoye To: conspire Message-Id: <20040808092307.4d3a26e1.skiffworks@earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.6claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 207.217.120.120 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: skiffworks@earthlink.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [conspire] USB Memory Stick X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 16:20:42 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 181 Lines: 6 Conspirators: I've been unable to mount and use a USB Memory Stick(USB flash memory); the stick is a Kingston 128MBs, I'm trying to mount it in a Libranet 2.8.1 OS. Thanks, Bill From berry@housebsd.org Sun Aug 08 09:22:44 2004 Received: from corona.housebsd.org ([207.112.136.202]:53903 helo=mail.housebsd.org) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BtqRR-0004Wk-HR for ; Sun, 08 Aug 2004 09:22:44 -0700 Received: from helios.housebsd.org (helios.housebsd.org [68.78.86.37]) by mail.housebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C44FE31CA; Sun, 8 Aug 2004 11:23:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from helios.housebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by helios.housebsd.org (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i78GINqx016456; Sun, 8 Aug 2004 11:18:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (berry@localhost) by helios.housebsd.org (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.9/Submit) with ESMTP id i78GILS6016452; Sun, 8 Aug 2004 11:18:21 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: helios.housebsd.org: berry owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 11:18:21 -0500 (CDT) From: Sean Berry To: Bill Stoye In-Reply-To: <20040808092307.4d3a26e1.skiffworks@earthlink.net> Message-ID: References: <20040808092307.4d3a26e1.skiffworks@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 207.112.136.202 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: berry@housebsd.org Subject: Re: [conspire] USB Memory Stick Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Cc: conspire X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 16:22:45 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 560 Lines: 21 Does the hardware detect? What's it probe as? -- Sean Berry works with UNIX, especially Solaris and NetBSD. (414) 559-3019 http://www.housebsd.org/~berry/photo/ On Sun, 8 Aug 2004, Bill Stoye wrote: > Conspirators: > > I've been unable to mount and use a USB Memory Stick(USB flash memory); the stick is a Kingston 128MBs, I'm trying to mount it in a Libranet 2.8.1 OS. > > Thanks, Bill > > _______________________________________________ > conspire mailing list > conspire@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire > From skiffworks@earthlink.net Sun Aug 08 10:22:42 2004 Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.22]:49906) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BtrNT-0004rh-W0 for ; Sun, 08 Aug 2004 10:22:42 -0700 Received: from cpe-24-221-189-101.ca.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.189.101] helo=skiffworks) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BtrNa-0004hB-00 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Sun, 08 Aug 2004 10:22:42 -0700 Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 10:25:12 -0700 From: Bill Stoye To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-Id: <20040808102512.23c14923.skiffworks@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: References: <20040808092307.4d3a26e1.skiffworks@earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.6claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 207.217.120.22 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: skiffworks@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [conspire] USB Memory Stick Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.7 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 17:22:42 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 924 Lines: 33 Sean: I guess I need some basic skills, I'm unable to answer your questions. Bill On Sun, 8 Aug 2004 11:18:21 -0500 (CDT) Sean Berry wrote: > > Does the hardware detect? What's it probe as? > > -- > Sean Berry works with UNIX, especially Solaris and NetBSD. (414) 559-3019 > http://www.housebsd.org/~berry/photo/ > > On Sun, 8 Aug 2004, Bill Stoye wrote: > > > Conspirators: > > > > I've been unable to mount and use a USB Memory Stick(USB flash memory); the stick is a Kingston 128MBs, I'm trying to mount it in a Libranet 2.8.1 OS. > > > > Thanks, Bill > > > > _______________________________________________ > > conspire mailing list > > conspire@linuxmafia.com > > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire > > > > _______________________________________________ > conspire mailing list > conspire@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire From skiffworks@earthlink.net Sun Aug 08 12:38:18 2004 Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.22]:45846) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BttUi-0005Xi-E1 for ; Sun, 08 Aug 2004 12:38:18 -0700 Received: from cpe-24-221-189-101.ca.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.189.101] helo=skiffworks) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BttUo-0000ts-00 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Sun, 08 Aug 2004 12:38:18 -0700 Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 12:40:49 -0700 From: Bill Stoye To: conspire Message-Id: <20040808124049.5ee3260e.skiffworks@earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.6claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 207.217.120.22 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: skiffworks@earthlink.net Subject: Fw: [conspire] USB Memory Stick Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.7 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 19:38:19 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 6748 Lines: 198 The following transpired between Sean Berry and I; with his help I have an operable USB Memory Stick! Bill Begin forwarded message: Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 12:36:16 -0700 From: Bill Stoye To: Sean Berry Subject: Re: [conspire] USB Memory Stick I was wondering about sharing it; somehow, left everyone out of the loop. I guess I won't throw the PC out the window and back over it with the truck... yet. :) Bill On Sun, 8 Aug 2004 13:56:10 -0500 (CDT) Sean Berry wrote: > > post a summary back to the conspire list, save someone else the hair. :) > > -- > Sean Berry works with UNIX, especially Solaris and NetBSD. (414) 559-3019 > http://www.housebsd.org/~berry/photo/ > > On Sun, 8 Aug 2004, Bill Stoye wrote: > > > OK! YES!! > > > > root@skiffworks:/home/bill# mount /dev/sdc1 /mnt > > root@skiffworks:/home/bill# df -k > > Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on > > /dev/hda2 76001188 5915240 70085948 8% / > > /dev/sdc1 125780 0 125780 0% /mnt > > > > > > root@skiffworks:/mnt# cp /home/bill/PBAY2.jpg /mnt > > root@skiffworks:/mnt# ls > > pbay2.jpg > > root@skiffworks:/mnt# > > > > It works, cool! > > > > Do I have to be 'root' to access/move files on the memory stick? I tried using 'emlfm' and 'nautilus' as 'user' and get a "permission denied" message. > > > > Thanks for your help Sean, I've lost a lot of valuable hair over this. > > > > Bill > > > > On Sun, 8 Aug 2004 13:06:52 -0500 (CDT) > > Sean Berry wrote: > > > >> > >> ok, try this as root: > >> > >> # mount /dev/sdc1 /mnt > >> > >> or: > >> > >> # mount -t msdos /dev/sdc1 /mnt > >> > >> or possibly: > >> > >> # mount -t vfat /dev/sdc1 /mnt > >> > >> Do "df -k" after each, and see if /dev/sdc1 is listed. If so, you've > >> successfully mounted your new USB memory stick. :) > >> > >> -- > >> Sean Berry works with UNIX, especially Solaris and NetBSD. (414) 559-3019 > >> http://www.housebsd.org/~berry/photo/ > >> > >> On Sun, 8 Aug 2004, Bill Stoye wrote: > >> > >>> This may be more than you want, I pasted any reference to USB: > >>> > >>> usb_control/bulk_msg: timeout > >>> usb_control/bulk_msg: timeout > >>> usb_control/bulk_msg: timeout > >>> usb_control/bulk_msg: timeout > >>> usb_control/bulk_msg: timeout > >>> usb_control/bulk_msg: timeout > >>> usb_control/bulk_msg: timeout > >>> usb_control/bulk_msg: timeout > >>> 0: nvidia: loading NVIDIA Linux x86 nvidia.o Kernel Module 1.0-4496 Wed Jul > >>> 19:03:09 PDT 2003 > >>> Linux agpgart interface v0.99 (c) Jeff Hartmann > >>> agpgart: Maximum main memory to use for agp memory: 816M > >>> agpgart: Detected Via Apollo Pro KT400 chipset > >>> agpgart: unable to determine aperture size. > >>> 0: NVRM: AGPGART: unable to retrieve symbol table > >>> usb_control/bulk_msg: timeout > >>> usb_control/bulk_msg: timeout > >>> usb_control/bulk_msg: timeout > >>> usb_control/bulk_msg: timeout > >>> usb_control/bulk_msg: timeout > >>> usb_control/bulk_msg: timeout > >>> usb_control/bulk_msg: timeout > >>> usb_control/bulk_msg: timeout > >>> usb_control/bulk_msg: timeout > >>> usb_control/bulk_msg: timeout > >>> usb_control/bulk_msg: timeout > >>> usb_control/bulk_msg: timeout > >>> usb_control/bulk_msg: timeout > >>> usb_control/bulk_msg: timeout > >>> usb_control/bulk_msg: timeout > >>> usb_control/bulk_msg: timeout > >>> hub.c: new USB device 00:10.4-7, assigned address 3 > >>> scsi4 : SCSI emulation for USB Mass Storage devices > >>> Vendor: Kingston Model: DataTraveler 2.0 Rev: 4.10 > >>> Type: Direct-Access ANSI SCSI revision: 02 > >>> Attached scsi removable disk sdc at scsi4, channel 0, id 0, lun 0 > >>> SCSI device sdc: 251904 512-byte hdwr sectors (129 MB) > >>> sdc: Write Protect is off > >>> sdc: sdc1 > >>> WARNING: USB Mass Storage data integrity not assured > >>> USB Mass Storage device found at 3 > >>> usb_control/bulk_msg: timeout > >>> usbdevfs: USBDEVFS_CONTROL failed dev 3 rqt 128 rq 6 len 9 ret -110 > >>> usbdevfs: USBDEVFS_CONTROL failed dev 3 rqt 128 rq 6 len 1024 ret -71 > >>> usbdevfs: USBDEVFS_CONTROL failed dev 3 rqt 128 rq 6 len 18 ret -71 > >>> usbdevfs: USBDEVFS_CONTROL failed dev 3 rqt 128 rq 6 len 18 ret -71 > >>> usb.c: USB disconnect on device 00:10.4-7 address 3 > >>> usb_control/bulk_msg: timeout > >>> usb_control/bulk_msg: timeout > >>> usb_control/bulk_msg: timeout > >>> usb_control/bulk_msg: timeout > >>> usb_control/bulk_msg: timeout > >>> usb_control/bulk_msg: timeout > >>> usb_control/bulk_msg: timeout > >>> usb_control/bulk_msg: timeout > >>> hub.c: new USB device 00:10.4-7, assigned address 4 > >>> WARNING: USB Mass Storage data integrity not assured > >>> USB Mass Storage device found at 4 > >>> > >>> Bill > >>> On Sun, 8 Aug 2004 12:43:50 -0500 (CDT) > >>> Sean Berry wrote: > >>> > >>>> > >>>> The dmesg command will show you current kernel messages. Look for > >>>> anything about USB or the brand name of the stick you bought. Paste it > >>>> back to me if you find it, or just the last 5-10 lines if there isn't > >>>> anything you recognize. > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Sean Berry works with UNIX, especially Solaris and NetBSD. (414) 559-3019 > >>>> http://www.housebsd.org/~berry/photo/ > >>>> > >>>> On Sun, 8 Aug 2004, Bill Stoye wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Sean: > >>>>> I guess I need some basic skills, I'm unable to answer your questions. > >>>>> Bill > >>>>> > >>>>> On Sun, 8 Aug 2004 11:18:21 -0500 (CDT) > >>>>> Sean Berry wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Does the hardware detect? What's it probe as? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> Sean Berry works with UNIX, especially Solaris and NetBSD. (414) 559-3019 > >>>>>> http://www.housebsd.org/~berry/photo/ > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Sun, 8 Aug 2004, Bill Stoye wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Conspirators: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I've been unable to mount and use a USB Memory Stick(USB flash memory); the stick is a Kingston 128MBs, I'm trying to mount it in a Libranet 2.8.1 OS. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Thanks, Bill > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> conspire mailing list > >>>>>>> conspire@linuxmafia.com > >>>>>>> http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> conspire mailing list > >>>>>> conspire@linuxmafia.com > >>>>>> http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> conspire mailing list > >>>>> conspire@linuxmafia.com > >>>>> http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire > >>>>> > >>> > > From einfeldt@earthlink.net Sun Aug 08 16:50:53 2004 Received: from mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.48]:39335) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BtxR9-0006tH-OT for ; Sun, 08 Aug 2004 16:50:53 -0700 Received: from user-2injac8.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.121.169.136]) by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BtxRF-0002ql-00 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Sun, 08 Aug 2004 16:50:53 -0700 From: Christian Einfeldt To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 15:56:10 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200408081556.10478.einfeldt@earthlink.net> X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 207.217.120.48 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: einfeldt@earthlink.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [conspire] Thanks for allowing us to film you at Linux Picnic 13! X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 23:50:53 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 318 Lines: 11 Hi, I wanted to thank all the folks who were at the Picn*x 13 and particularly those who let us film them. For the folks who were camera shy, I totally respect your decision, and as a simple end Linux user who has benefitted from the help of true geeks, thanks for helping me! Christian Einfeldt 415-351-1300 From einfeldt@earthlink.net Sun Aug 08 16:50:54 2004 Received: from mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.48]:39338) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BtxR9-0006tJ-TE for ; Sun, 08 Aug 2004 16:50:54 -0700 Received: from user-2injac8.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.121.169.136]) by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BtxRG-0002ql-00 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Sun, 08 Aug 2004 16:50:54 -0700 From: Christian Einfeldt To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 15:57:49 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200408081557.49831.einfeldt@earthlink.net> X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 207.217.120.48 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: einfeldt@earthlink.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [conspire] oops, forgot to say X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 23:50:54 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 236 Lines: 8 that I will be out of the country and out of email range until 8/25/04. I will also be unsubscribing from the list until I get back. Thanks again for letting us film for the Digital Tipping Point. Christian Einfeldt 415-351-1300 From cwong47@ccsf.edu Wed Aug 11 14:17:54 2004 Received: from hills.ccsf.cc.ca.us ([147.144.1.2]:56495) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1Bv0Td-0003TU-JB for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 14:17:54 -0700 Received: from localhost (cwong47@localhost) by hills.ccsf.cc.ca.us (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id i7BLHkx23108 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 14:17:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: hills.ccsf.cc.ca.us: cwong47 owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 14:17:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Calvin Wong X-X-Sender: cwong47@hills.ccsf.cc.ca.us To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 147.144.1.2 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: cwong47@ccsf.edu Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-3.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, FROM_ENDS_IN_NUMS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 14:21:56 -0700 Subject: [conspire] usb memory stick as regular user. X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 21:17:54 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 596 Lines: 21 hey bill. heres what i have for my usb memory stick to mount as regular user. /etc/fstab: /dev/sda1 /mnt/sda1 auto user,noauto 0 0 the user option is pretty important and as regular user i can just mount /mnt/sda1 calvin Second class? What about Social Security, bus discounts, Medic-Alert jewelery, Gold Bond powder, pants all the way up to your armpits, and all those other senior perks? Oh, if you ask me, old folks have it pretty sweet. -- Homer Simpson Raging Abe Simpson and His Grumbling Grandson in "The Curse of the Flying Hellfish" From skiffworks@earthlink.net Wed Aug 11 16:48:59 2004 Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.62]:50053) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1Bv2px-0004Eq-QN for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:48:59 -0700 Received: from cpe-24-221-189-101.ca.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.189.101] helo=skiffworks) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bv2pH-0001Qb-00; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:48:11 -0700 Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:51:01 -0700 From: Bill Stoye To: Calvin Wong Message-Id: <20040811165101.1540f0e9.skiffworks@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.6claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 207.217.120.62 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: skiffworks@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [conspire] usb memory stick as regular user. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 23:48:59 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1216 Lines: 41 Hi Calvin: Are you suggesting, all I need do is to just add that line or change what is there? This is what I have relating to scsi devices: /dev/scd0 /cdrom udf,iso9660 defaults,user,noauto,ro 0 0 /dev/scd1 /cdrom1 udf,iso9660 defaults,user,noauto,ro 0 0 Bill PS. The "senior perks: are great, earning them is a bitch! :) On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 14:17:45 -0700 (PDT) Calvin Wong wrote: > hey bill. heres what i have for my usb memory stick to mount as regular user. > > /etc/fstab: > /dev/sda1 /mnt/sda1 auto user,noauto 0 0 > > the user option is pretty important > and as regular user i can just > mount /mnt/sda1 > > calvin > > Second class? What about Social Security, bus discounts, Medic-Alert > jewelery, Gold Bond powder, pants all the way up to your armpits, and > all those other senior perks? Oh, if you ask me, old folks have it > pretty sweet. > > -- Homer Simpson > Raging Abe Simpson and His Grumbling Grandson in > "The Curse of the Flying Hellfish" > > > _______________________________________________ > conspire mailing list > conspire@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire From ixian@idiom.com Thu Aug 12 23:41:37 2004 Received: from delight.idiom.com ([216.240.32.16]:58004) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BvVko-0004iB-Cl for ; Thu, 12 Aug 2004 23:41:36 -0700 Received: from idiom.com (idiom.com [216.240.32.1]) by delight.idiom.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58851EFE5F for ; Thu, 12 Aug 2004 23:41:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from idiom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by idiom.com (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i7D6DE4x072323; Thu, 12 Aug 2004 23:13:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ixian@idiom.com) Received: (from ixian@localhost) by idiom.com (8.12.9p2/8.12.9/Submit) id i7D6DEr0072307; Thu, 12 Aug 2004 23:13:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ixian) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 23:13:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200408130613.i7D6DEr0072307@idiom.com> From: Eric De Mund To: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Fax: 240.282.4443 X-URL: X-Mailer: GNU Emacs 21.2.1 (i386--freebsd) X-POM: The Moon is Waning Crescent (8% of Full) Organization: Ixian Systems, Inc. X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.240.32.16 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: ixian@idiom.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [conspire] procmail(1) recipe help X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eric De Mund List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 06:41:37 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 850 Lines: 31 People, Are there any Procmail experts in the house? I'm having trouble concoct- ing a Procmail recipe. In short, I want emails sent to email addresses of the form: *@ixian.com that are *not* of any of these sub-forms: ead*@ixian.com foo@ixian.com baz@ixian.com quux@ixian.com to be thrown straightaway into the dumper. Thanks. Pointers to venues where Procmail questions are asked and answered (and that won't result in my receiving even *more* spam) are welcome, as well. Eric -- "All morning I worked on the proof of one of my poems, and took out a comma; in the afternoon I put it back." --Oscar Wilde Eric De Mund | Ixian Systems, Inc. | cell: 650.303.4336 email: | 650 Castro St, #120-210 | fax: 240.282.4443 http://www.ixian.com/ead/ | Mountain View, CA 94041 | Y!IM: ead0002 From skiffworks@earthlink.net Sun Aug 15 08:32:19 2004 Received: from cardinal.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.121.226]:38685) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BwMzU-0001XS-Ue for ; Sun, 15 Aug 2004 08:32:19 -0700 Received: from cpe-24-221-189-101.ca.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.189.101] helo=skiffworks) by cardinal.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BwMza-00070t-00; Sun, 15 Aug 2004 08:32:18 -0700 Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 08:35:21 -0700 From: Bill Stoye To: Calvin Wong Message-Id: <20040815083521.0415fd1b.skiffworks@earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.6claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 207.217.121.226 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: skiffworks@earthlink.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Cc: conspire , Pete Subject: [conspire] help last night X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 15:32:19 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 609 Lines: 10 Calvin: Thank you very much for your help last night at the CABAL meeting and for sorting out the problem I was having; after being hesitant to bring my machine, it turned out great and I'm pleased that I did so; bringing it wasn't the disaster I envisioned but it did bring to the forefront the value of a Flat Panel Display(my back tells me)! I sorry my friend Pete and I were unable to stay and join in the BBQ but were pleased to meet the others there. He mentioned the meeting was helpful to him as well and was glad to have attended. Thanks again for your help. A Libranet/GNU/Linux advocate; Bill From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Tue Aug 17 15:33:14 2004 Received: from web60804.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.67]:37741) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BxCVw-0001Ud-EX for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:33:14 -0700 Message-ID: <20040817223314.96716.qmail@web60804.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.186.9] by web60804.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:33:14 PDT Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:33:14 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.155.196.67 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [conspire] budget video box X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 22:33:15 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 576 Lines: 17 don't make the mistake i did of almost writing here that today looked like a good-enough day to get the parts for a box, wait for the holiday. esp since they want more for an athlon 2800+ with m/b than they wanted on aug. 1. i think i did see a dvd rw for ~$60 but you may see $50 soon. my big advice is to get a review of the exact board off the internet then re-visit fry's if it really looks good enough and match DDR ram etc. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Aug 17 19:07:31 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BxFrO-0002dW-RP by authid for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2004 19:07:30 -0700 Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 19:07:30 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20040818020730.GA30789@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Subject: [conspire] ANNOUNCEMENT: Linux Consultants' lunch, Th. August 19, Sunnyvale X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 02:07:31 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2767 Lines: 68 (All are invited: You needn't be a Linux consultant.) The Linux Consultants' Lunch will be THURSDAY August 19, 11 AM - 1 PM, at TURMERIK Asian Cuisines (old name: Turmerik Restaurant), 141 S. Murphy Ave. between Washington Ave. and W. Evelyn Ave., Sunnyvale. That's about one long block east-south-east of the S. Mathilda Ave. overcrossing over the CalTrain tracks, and about two long blocks southeast of Central Expressway. We'll be having Turmerik's fixed-price lunch buffet, which is probably still $11.95 per person, all you can eat. Drinks, tip, tax are extra. The restaurant's change of name reflects them branching out from northern Indian classics, adding Chinese and Asian-fusion dishes as well (reflecting the expertise of newcomer co-chef Danny Ng). _Note_: We'll be at a table in the BACK ROOM of the upstairs dining area. This event is held the 3rd Thursday of every month. Restaurant Web site: http://www.turmerik.com/ MAP: ...is accessible from http://www.turmerik.com/directions.htm DIRECTIONS: 1. CALTRAIN: Exit at Sunnyvale Caltrain station. The S. Murphy Street / W. Evelyn Street intersection is just on the south side of the tracks. 2. VTA bus: Exit from a route 26, 32, 53, 54, 55, 304, or 305 bus as close as possible to Sunnyvale Town Center. The commercial block of S. Murphy Street is immediately east of Town Center. 3. CAR: Heading South on Hwy. 280 (from San Francisco): Take Hwy 85 heading north for about three miles. Take the El Camino Real exit south. After about two miles turn left on Matilda (towards downtown Sunnyvale). After 3/4 mile, turn right on Washington. Go through the first street light (Macy's will be on your right) and turn left on Francis. You will find parking and the back entrance to Turmerik on your right. Heading North on Hwy. 280 (from San Jose): Take the De Anza exit to the right (towards Sunnyvale). After about 2 miles, the road will become Matilda. When the road forks, continue on Matilda and cross El Camino Real. Continue straight for 3/4 mile and turn right onto Washington. Continue using the directions above. Heading North or South on Hwy. 101: Take the Matilda exit, heading south. Follow Matilda 1.5 miles, crossing the bridge (over the railroad tracks and Evelyn). Take your first left on Washington. Continue using the directions above. Heading North or South on Central Expwy.: Take the Matilda exit heading south. After crossing the bridge (over the railroad tracks and Evelyn), take your first left on Washington. Continue using the directions above. PARKING: There are ample lots surrounding S. Murphy Street (one at the restaurant's back entrance), a garage at S. Frances/Evelyn, and large lot parking near Macy's/Sunnyvale Town Center. From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Tue Aug 17 22:04:51 2004 Received: from web60803.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.66]:31521) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BxIcv-0003Qr-Ao for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2004 22:04:51 -0700 Message-ID: <20040818050442.73353.qmail@web60803.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.186.31] by web60803.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 17 Aug 2004 22:04:42 PDT Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 22:04:42 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.155.196.66 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [conspire] DVD +-rw etc. X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 05:04:51 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 276 Lines: 11 one of the gentoo.org weekly newsletters looks 2have some ok stuff on dvd burning, incl 2xlayer, hollywood usually uses 2 layers. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From gpope@pcmagic.net Wed Aug 18 22:53:46 2004 Received: from mail.pcmagic.net ([69.19.155.88]:53432) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1Bxfrp-0002c3-1V for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 22:53:46 -0700 Received: (qmail 49460 invoked by uid 1003); 18 Aug 2004 22:54:59 -0700 Received: from gpope@pcmagic.net by mail.pcmagic.net by uid 168 with qmail-scanner-1.22 (clamdscan: devel-20040726. Clear:RC:1(66.81.77.230):. Processed in 1.441894 secs); 19 Aug 2004 05:54:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?127.0.0.1?) (gpope@66.81.77.230) by mail.pcmagic.net with SMTP; 18 Aug 2004 22:54:57 -0700 Message-ID: <41244063.3040105@pcmagic.net> Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 22:53:39 -0700 From: george pope User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20040616 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com, "kbasko1" <"kbasko1"@juno.com>, prophit kwami , Bhavin Shah X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 69.19.155.88 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: gpope@pcmagic.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Cc: Subject: [conspire] budget video box Re: conspire Digest, Vol 15, Issue 9 X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 05:53:46 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 7194 Lines: 207 Basko and I are trying to figure how we can get a grant, ship 100-300 (either 20'or 40' container) full of free refurbished Susse or Knoppix computers (pluss LeapFrog literacy teaching gadgets http://www.leapfrog.com .They have a complete health course presently given in Indian languages) to N Ghana for some 33 computer cafes" where village folk can learn basic skills. No telephone, no Internet but they do have the juice in our villages. We believe vocational and health training will be important to the project. Hence we want to run CD videos. Just think the Ga or Hausa speaker can hear some basic English when he or she learns how to either fix cars or deliver a baby. It was Dan who told me about his work at Alameda County Computer Resource Center (ACCRC) that got me going on this. How much computer do we need and at what approximate cost to run cd home videos etc. (We hope that Ghana (and eventually 3rd world) TV will buy into this and take up a lot of slack? Please give technical specs. Ours may be too big an order for ACCRC. Where can we get "free" equipment on either the the E Coast or Europe? Either should reduce container shipping costs but we would certainly need serious inspection back up at the point of origin. We are also looking for self teaching reading, writing and arithmetic software. Our cafes are going to have staff on hand to help when open for business. Thanks very much for any advise. George Pope conspire-request@linuxmafia.com wrote: >Send conspire mailing list submissions to > conspire@linuxmafia.com > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > conspire-request@linuxmafia.com > >You can reach the person managing the list at > conspire-owner@linuxmafia.com > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of conspire digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. budget video box (bruce coston) > 2. ANNOUNCEMENT: Linux Consultants' lunch, Th. August 19, > Sunnyvale (Rick Moen) > 3. DVD +-rw etc. (bruce coston) > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Message: 1 >Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:33:14 -0700 (PDT) >From: bruce coston >Subject: [conspire] budget video box >To: conspire@linuxmafia.com >Message-ID: <20040817223314.96716.qmail@web60804.mail.yahoo.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > >don't make the mistake i did of almost writing here >that today looked like a good-enough day to get the >parts for a box, wait for the holiday. esp since they >want more for an athlon 2800+ with m/b than they >wanted on aug. 1. i think i did see a dvd rw for ~$60 >but you may see $50 soon. my big advice is to get a >review of the exact board off the internet then >re-visit fry's if it really looks good enough and >match DDR ram etc. > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! >http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 2 >Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 19:07:30 -0700 >From: Rick Moen >Subject: [conspire] ANNOUNCEMENT: Linux Consultants' lunch, Th. August > 19, Sunnyvale >To: conspire@linuxmafia.com >Message-ID: <20040818020730.GA30789@linuxmafia.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > >(All are invited: You needn't be a Linux consultant.) > >The Linux Consultants' Lunch will be THURSDAY August 19, 11 AM >- 1 PM, at TURMERIK Asian Cuisines (old name: Turmerik Restaurant), 141 >S. Murphy Ave. between Washington Ave. and W. Evelyn Ave., Sunnyvale. >That's about one long block east-south-east of the S. Mathilda Ave. >overcrossing over the CalTrain tracks, and about two long blocks >southeast of Central Expressway. > >We'll be having Turmerik's fixed-price lunch buffet, which is probably >still $11.95 per person, all you can eat. Drinks, tip, tax are extra. > >The restaurant's change of name reflects them branching out from >northern Indian classics, adding Chinese and Asian-fusion dishes as well >(reflecting the expertise of newcomer co-chef Danny Ng). > >_Note_: We'll be at a table in the BACK ROOM of the upstairs dining >area. This event is held the 3rd Thursday of every month. > > >Restaurant Web site: http://www.turmerik.com/ > >MAP: ...is accessible from http://www.turmerik.com/directions.htm > >DIRECTIONS: > >1. CALTRAIN: Exit at Sunnyvale Caltrain station. The S. Murphy Street / >W. Evelyn Street intersection is just on the south side of the tracks. > >2. VTA bus: Exit from a route 26, 32, 53, 54, 55, 304, or 305 bus as >close as possible to Sunnyvale Town Center. The commercial block of S. >Murphy Street is immediately east of Town Center. > >3. CAR: > >Heading South on Hwy. 280 (from San Francisco): > >Take Hwy 85 heading north for about three miles. Take the El Camino >Real exit south. After about two miles turn left on Matilda (towards >downtown Sunnyvale). After 3/4 mile, turn right on Washington. Go >through the first street light (Macy's will be on your right) and turn >left on Francis. You will find parking and the back entrance to >Turmerik on your right. > >Heading North on Hwy. 280 (from San Jose): > >Take the De Anza exit to the right (towards Sunnyvale). After about 2 >miles, the road will become Matilda. When the road forks, continue on >Matilda and cross El Camino Real. Continue straight for 3/4 mile and turn >right onto Washington. Continue using the directions above. > >Heading North or South on Hwy. 101: > >Take the Matilda exit, heading south. Follow Matilda 1.5 miles, crossing >the bridge (over the railroad tracks and Evelyn). Take your first left >on Washington. Continue using the directions above. > >Heading North or South on Central Expwy.: > >Take the Matilda exit heading south. After crossing the bridge (over >the railroad tracks and Evelyn), take your first left on Washington. >Continue using the directions above. > > >PARKING: There are ample lots surrounding S. Murphy Street (one at the >restaurant's back entrance), a garage at S. Frances/Evelyn, and large lot >parking near Macy's/Sunnyvale Town Center. > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 3 >Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 22:04:42 -0700 (PDT) >From: bruce coston >Subject: [conspire] DVD +-rw etc. >To: conspire@linuxmafia.com >Message-ID: <20040818050442.73353.qmail@web60803.mail.yahoo.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > >one of the gentoo.org weekly newsletters looks 2have >some ok stuff on dvd burning, incl 2xlayer, hollywood >usually uses 2 layers. > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! >http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > > > >------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >conspire mailing list >conspire@linuxmafia.com >http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire > > >End of conspire Digest, Vol 15, Issue 9 >*************************************** > > > > From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Thu Aug 19 13:10:13 2004 Received: from web60803.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.66]:34262) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BxtEd-0007Tw-2E for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:10:13 -0700 Message-ID: <20040819201009.19364.qmail@web60803.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.186.38] by web60803.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:10:09 PDT Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:10:09 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.155.196.66 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-2528066-1092946209=:17341" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [conspire] last/next cabal meeeting X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 20:10:13 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1570 Lines: 19 --0-2528066-1092946209=:17341 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii everybody needs to exercise extreme caution about the 4 port hub and the junk coating it, i've got a rash on my left arm(even removed my watch): unless the bit where someone pretended to rub me with tomato parts after i said both "permission denied" and "you can solely in that you are physically able" about it was not a joke [i am allergic, its the equivalent of poison oak to me and nothing else sticks out as a culprit]. good luck on those computer donations, you may need it. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. --0-2528066-1092946209=:17341 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

everybody needs to exercise extreme caution about the 4 port hub and the junk coating it, i've got a  rash on my left arm(even removed my watch): unless the bit where someone pretended to rub me with tomato parts after i said both "permission denied" and "you can solely in that you are physically able" about it was not a joke [i am allergic, its the equivalent of poison oak to me and nothing else sticks out as a culprit]. good luck on those computer donations, you may need it.

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Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. --0-2528066-1092946209=:17341-- From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Aug 19 14:27:43 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BxuRi-0007ur-Vb by authid for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 14:27:42 -0700 Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 14:27:42 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] last/next cabal meeeting Message-ID: <20040819212742.GF30789@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <20040819201009.19364.qmail@web60803.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040819201009.19364.qmail@web60803.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 21:27:43 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 483 Lines: 17 Quoting bruce coston (jane_ikari@yahoo.com): > everybody needs to exercise extreme caution about the 4 port hub and > the junk coating it.... The morning after the meeting, I noticed all that gunk on the Netgear hub, and so spent some time carefully cleaning it using paper towels and detergent. I'll probably clean it a second time, just to make sure. [You and tomatoes:] > i am allergic, its the equivalent of poison oak to me Oh dear. We'll be careful about that, then. From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Fri Aug 20 09:59:36 2004 Received: from web60801.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.64]:47170) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1ByCji-0005QP-Tp for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 09:59:36 -0700 Message-ID: <20040820165926.90670.qmail@web60801.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.187.5] by web60801.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 09:59:26 PDT Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 09:59:26 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.155.196.64 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [conspire] linuxVIDbox X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:59:37 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 404 Lines: 13 Fry's has good specials starting today, the 512m of ddr3000 may even beat the memorial day sale. If you want your box finished sooner this weekend is good, i think something in the comnputersurplus.com ad looked good too, esp if u wanna try TOO cheap dvd -r. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From ixian@idiom.com Mon Aug 23 19:36:23 2004 Received: from delight.idiom.com ([216.240.32.16]:50707) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BzRAW-000410-Hq for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2004 19:36:22 -0700 Received: from idiom.com (idiom.com [216.240.32.1]) by delight.idiom.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33CCAF5ED8 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2004 19:36:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from idiom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by idiom.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i7O2Swds070028; Mon, 23 Aug 2004 19:28:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ixian@idiom.com) Received: (from ixian@localhost) by idiom.com (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) id i7O2SvHq070011; Mon, 23 Aug 2004 19:28:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ixian) MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <16682.42985.330462.229227@idiom.com> Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 19:28:57 -0700 From: Eric De Mund To: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailer: VM 7.07 under Emacs 21.2.1 X-Humans-Reply-To: Eric De Mund X-Fax: 240.282.4443 X-URL: X-Mailer: GNU Emacs 21.2.1 (i386--freebsd) X-POM: The Moon is Waxing Gibbous (58% of Full) Organization: Ixian Systems, Inc. X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.240.32.16 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: ixian@idiom.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 09:56:36 -0700 Subject: [conspire] SunBlade 100 giveaway (has dead powersupply) X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eric De Mund List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 02:36:23 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 886 Lines: 26 People, If anyone would like a SunBlade 100 that just stopped working (when given power, not even the powersupply fan starts up), simply shout. It's yours for the taking. Information and specifications: Sun Blade 100 Sun Part Number: 380-0333-02 Sun Blade 100 Workstation: Documentation http://www.sun.com/products-n-solutions/hardware/docs/Workstation_Products/Workstations/Sun_Blade_Workstations/Sun_Blade_100/index.html Sun Blade 100 Workstation: System Handbook http://sunsolve.sun.com/handbook_pub/Systems/SunBlade100/SunBlade100.html sticker on rear: MB05-51/500 R1.4.1/15GB S01/2X 256MB S01/DVD12X S01/FD S01/SCR S01 Eric -- Eric De Mund | Ixian Systems, Inc. | cell: 650.303.4336 email: | 650 Castro St, #120-210 | fax: 240.282.4443 http://www.ixian.com/ead/ | Mountain View, CA 94041 | Y!IM: ead0002 From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Aug 24 10:04:33 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1Bzein-0000MR-4J by authid for ; Tue, 24 Aug 2004 10:04:33 -0700 Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 10:04:33 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20040824170432.GX30789@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Subject: [conspire] (forw) [TAG] ReiserFS 4 Released. X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 17:04:33 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1724 Lines: 38 Bruce will be cheered by this! ----- Forwarded message from Jimmy O'Regan ----- Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 13:40:02 +0100 From: Jimmy O'Regan To: The Answer Gang Reply-To: The Answer Gang Subject: [TAG] ReiserFS 4 Released. Reiser4 has been released: http://namesys.com/ This is the newest version of ReiserFS, which is designed to be more like a database than a traditional Unix filesystem, while providing an interface which appears to be a traditional Unix FS. Reiser4 looks to be a throwback to the sort of file systems used in mainframes - the homepage gives the specific example of providing the ability to treat each field of /etc/passwd as a separate entity, which can be individually checked for modification times, which is somewhat like the filesystem used by the AS/400 (which is built on top of DB/2), where text files are actually like SQL views, and each line of each file can be individually selected. Wonder if we'll start to see conversions from mainframe types now? +-+--------------------------------------------------------------------+-+ You've asked a question of The Answer Gang, so you've been sent the reply directly as a courtesy. The TAG list has also been copied. Please send all replies to tag@linuxgazette.net, so that we can help our other readers by publishing the exchange in our monthly Web magazine: Linux Gazette (http://linuxgazette.net/) +-+--------------------------------------------------------------------+-+ _______________________________________________ TAG mailing list TAG@linuxgazette.net http://linuxgazette.net/mailman/listinfo/tag ----- End forwarded message ----- From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Aug 24 17:45:06 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1BzluU-0002x7-7b by authid for ; Tue, 24 Aug 2004 17:45:06 -0700 Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 17:45:06 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20040825004506.GN13688@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Subject: [conspire] (forw) help? X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 00:45:06 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1350 Lines: 39 ----- Forwarded message from "Grant E. Metcalf" ----- Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 16:09:23 -0700 (PDT) From: "Grant E. Metcalf" To: rick@linuxmafia.com Subject: help? Rick, A pleasant lady at the 650-561-9820 number directed me to this address--be sure and give her my thanks. I am looking for someone in the South San Francisco area to "do some hand-holding", etc. I am blind and new to Linux within the passed 2 weeks. A friend in Fremont helped install the 'fedora core 2 distribution on my CPU--with a MS-DOS 7x & Windows 98 2nd ed partition. I cannot get my U.S.Robotics Sportster 56000 to work in Linux, no recognition! Thinking of installing a PCI modem, but have no idea as to what I am doing. Probably will have other questions and issues as I grow along and would like to find a willing helper locally. My friends on the Speakup list, a blind speech access orientated group, have no more suggestions as to how I might get my old modem to work--but for, "forget dialup and go cable or DSL." Any suggestions you might have are appreciated. Cordially yours, Grant Listening for His shout! - First Thessalonians 4:16 Phone: 650-589-6890 Visit the Home Page of Bartimaeus Alliance of the Blind, Incorporated at http://thegems.shellworld.net ----- End forwarded message ----- From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Aug 24 17:45:26 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1Bzluo-0002y6-4S by authid for ; Tue, 24 Aug 2004 17:45:26 -0700 Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 17:45:26 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20040825004526.GA11376@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Subject: [conspire] (forw) Re: help? X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 00:45:26 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 4247 Lines: 87 ----- Forwarded message from Rick Moen ----- Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 17:44:54 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: "Grant E. Metcalf" Subject: Re: help? Hello, Grant. Good to hear from you. (My mother-in-law Cheryl will be glad to hear the compliment about her telephone persona.) Might you be able to be driven from SSF to my Linux user group meeting in Menlo Park, this coming Saturday from 4 PM to midnight? It's at my and my wife Deirdre's house, 2033 Sharon Road near Alameda de las Pulgas. If necessary, I could drive you and your computer home. The user group is CABAL, http://linuxmafia.com/cabal/ . We meet on the second and fourth Saturday of each month. You mentioned that the modem is a Sportster 56000. This appears to be available as either an external or internal modem. Linux can handle either one, but internal modems tend to create problems for numerous reasons. One such reason is reliance on the ISA Plug and Play standard, which requires some configuration in Linux. The internal version requires that extra work; the external one doesn't. (We might be able to set jumpers on your internal modem, if that's what it is, to disable Plug and Play mode. That would make things easier.) ISA Plug and Play was a (badly designed) effort to make "ISA" cards' hardware resources (meaning IRQs and I/O base addresses) to be self-configuring and dynamic, being assigned by the motherboard's ISA Plug and Play controller chip at boot time. In order for Linux to then configure the modem's serial port (using the "setserial" command) as Linux boots, it must query the chip to glean that information. Thus the need to do some configuration in Linux. (In case it wasn't obvious: Linux must initialise the serial port because that's the only way Linux knows to reach modems. Thus, the problem of making Linux able to talk to a modem is equivalant to the job of making Linux able to talk to the serial port: All internal modems consist of a serial port on a board, hard-wired to a modem on the same board.) You mentioned the option of getting a PCI modem, instead: Unfortunately, that actually would pose a similar challenge, in that PCI cards are handed their hardware resource assignments by the PCI controller chip at boot time. Thus, in order to configure such a modem's serial port using "setserial", one must create a script to parse the output of the "lspci" command (which queries the PCI controller chip) and constructs an appropriate "setserial" command. I have an example of such a script here: http://linuxmafia.com/pub/hardware/pcimodem I should also mention that most PCI internal modems also pose a much bigger obstacle: Practically all PCI internal modems are "winmodems", modems that have been deliberately manufactured with certain chips missing that would normally be present, in order to reduce production cost. The functionality of those missing chips is then emulated in software drivers. Some winmodems can, with a considerable amount of additional effort, be supported in Linux. I personally consider winmodems to not merit that effort. In fact, I personally also feel the same way about all internal modems, and wrote a set of essays to explain why I feel that way: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/ CABAL has a local, low-traffic mailing list to discuss issues like yours. Information about that forum is here: http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire I hope you won't mind my forwarding a copy of your inquiry (and of this reply) to that mailing list. You might consider joining it. I have no idea about a local helper in South San Francisco. I'm personally in Menlo Park and am kept quite busy, but maybe you can attend a CABAL meeting or get useful help on the mailing list. Participating in community forums such as that one has major advantage over seeking help via private e-mail, both for you and for the community. -- Cheers, "On the face of it, Microsoft complaining about the source license Rick Moen used by Linux is like the event horizon calling the kettle black." rick@linuxmafia.com -- Adam Barr, former Microsoft Corp. programmer ----- End forwarded message ----- From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Tue Aug 24 17:46:32 2004 Received: from web60801.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.64]:26018) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1Bzlvm-0002zW-Ft for ; Tue, 24 Aug 2004 17:46:32 -0700 Message-ID: <20040825004633.92438.qmail@web60801.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.186.20] by web60801.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 24 Aug 2004 17:46:33 PDT Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 17:46:33 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.155.196.64 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [conspire] Re: conspire Digest, Vol 15, Issue 12 X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 00:46:32 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 398 Lines: 11 sure, bring it to cabal, i can hide it in my closet later, salvage ram, hook up ide drives, even if i can't do something about the power supply; if nobody really can use a sun, my neighbor may want a third sun as this one loks more powerful. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Aug 25 02:24:12 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1Bzu0q-0005dm-Gi by authid for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2004 02:24:12 -0700 Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 02:24:12 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20040825092412.GQ13688@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Subject: [conspire] (forw) Re: help? X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 09:24:12 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2103 Lines: 48 ----- Forwarded message from "Grant E. Metcalf" ----- Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 19:05:29 -0700 (PDT) From: "Grant E. Metcalf" To: Rick Moen Subject: Re: help? rick, I will have to give some thought to traveling down your way since I usually spend that evening preparing for my adult Sunday school class which I teach. The Sportster modem is internal and from what you say about it and the PCI option, maybe the better choice would be an external modem. I am using the modem currently with Commo 7.7 on a shell dialup running MS-DOS 7x under Windows 98 2nd ed. Actually, I boot in DOS, or, can arrow to Linux in a dual boot menu. I would like to keep my current dialup shell working until I have proven to myself that a Linux e-mail program is more satisfactory, and, until I am comfortable with that environment. It sounds as though if we were to start moving jumpers around I would loose my use of Commo in DOS. Now then, Grampa DOS, as my Windows instructor calls me, is a bit slow to move. ;_) I presume there is a satisfactory external modem which will connect to either a USB or serial port which can be purchased at Frye's or the like? My system consists pf: P3, 686 according to Linux; a linux, and Windows 98 SE partition; approximately 20gb total disk; a dvd & cdrw(external), A drive; SBlive sound card; and of course 'that' modem. There are 2 serial ports and 2 USB with an expansion box on one USB. My speech synth takes 1 serial and I could free up the other which isn't being utilized at the moment. Again, my thought is to purchase an external modem for the Linux system and figure that will be the best solution to my problem and still maintain my current dialup setup. Thanks for your helpful reply and I will definitely consider the other suggestions you have made. Cordially yours, Grant Listening for His shout! - First Thessalonians 4:16 Visit the Home Page of Bartimaeus Alliance of the Blind, Incorporated at http://thegems.shellworld.net ----- End forwarded message ----- From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Aug 25 02:25:10 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1Bzu1m-0005f7-89 by authid for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2004 02:25:10 -0700 Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 02:25:10 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20040825092510.GA21707@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Subject: [conspire] (forw) Re: help? X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 09:25:10 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 6170 Lines: 125 (Illustrating some of the many reasons I dislike internal modems: I keep having to explain all this stuff, over and over.) ----- Forwarded message from Rick Moen ----- Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 02:23:55 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: "Grant E. Metcalf" Subject: Re: help? Hi, Grant. This e-mail may be a little rushed, because I'm trying to finish up for the day. My apologies in advance. An external modem of any respectable quality, indeed, makes things easy on essentially any operating system. Here are a few words as to why: Prior to approximately the first Pentium generation of machines, you may recall that PCs tended to come with a single built-in serial port. (I'm talking, here, about serial ports as such, not the ones incorporated inside internal modems.) More recent PCs, by contrast, have provided two serial ports, rather than one. Thus, an internal modem's serial port on a modern PC tends to become the PC's third serial port, while on an earlier PC it would become the second such port. The number is significant because of yet another instance of bad planning on the part of the PC's designers: They really never imagined that many people would ever equip a PC with more than two serial ports, total. Therefore, in decreeing the standard assignments of IRQs (hardware interrupts) to various serial ports, they decided that the assignments for COM3 and COM4 (to use the DOS terms; in Linux, those would be /dev/ttyS2 and /dev/ttyS3) would duplicate those of COM1 and COM2 (which in Linux are called /dev/ttyS0 and /dev/ttyS1). Specifically: COM1: IRQ4 COM2: IRQ3 COM3: IRQ4 COM4: IRQ3 Now, there are circumstances in which it's possible to harmlessly share IRQs between physical devices, but in general the practice is greatly to be avoided. So, in practice, few PCs actually use the supposedly "standard" IRQ assignments for COM3 and COM4. In effect, those ports are not standardised at all: Each PC does it differently. If I understand you correctly, you use Commo in a DOS session underneath Win98 (thus allowing use of your screen reader software). Your internal modem is probably either jumpered to use some specific (inherently non-standard) IRQ and I/O base address, or is jumpered to be assigned those values dynamically by the Plug and Play controller chip. In either case, I imagine Commo has been configured to communicate with your modem using the IRQ and I/O base address values its serial port currently has. Hypothetically, imagine that you had the same situation, except that your PC had only one built-in serial port, such that the internal modem could be jumpered to be COM2. In that case, both of your serial ports (the motherboard-based one, and the one built into your modem) would have highly standard IRQ and I/O base address values, which are known to all relevant software on all PC operating systems. For example, the standard startup configuration files on all Linux distributions will reliably, correctly initialise what DOS users would call the COM1 and COM2 ports -- because they are standard. Thus, one reason external modems are less problematic is simply that they don't add an additional serial port to PCs that -- these days -- tend to come with two such ports already. As an internal modem user, if you had anticipated this problem, you could have disabled one of your PC's two built-in ports (doing so inside the PC's motherboard BIOS Setup program). Let's say you would disable COM2 and leave COM1 enabled. Your speech synth would then remain connected to COM1, and your internal modem could be jumpered to become COM2. Of course, this work would have to be performed by a sighted friend or technician, since you couldn't use your screen reader for the task. Addressing your current situation using an external modem would eliminate the need to do that reconfiguration -- but you would still need to reconfigure Commo to use COM2 or COM1 (whichever one you connect the modem to). The downside is, well, the need to pay for an external modem -- plus a matching serial cable. I would not advise buying a USB modem, because USB setup for modem devices might be non-trivial (I have no relevant experience), and because many USB modems are winmodems. If I were in your shoes, I would seek help from a technically adept sighted friend to (1) make sure your speech synth is on COM1, (2) disable COM2 within the motherboard's BIOS Setup program, (3) jumper your internal modem to become COM2, and (4) reconfigure Commo to use COM2. But that's because I'd not want to be in a hurry to purchase new hardware. In fact, I do have a strong preference in external modems, but it's not cheap. Last I heard, my preferred external modem cost $265. It's the US Robotics Courier V.Everthing V.90 External modem. Some of the reasons for my prejudice are mentioned on the aforementioned essay page, http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/ (but that page is quite verbose). That having been said, I'm not currently following my own advice, in that I don't currently use modems, and therefore am not even sure whether I have one or not (at the moment). In any event, it seems to me that either of these options (disabling a motherboard COM2, or adding an external modem) does necessitate reconfiguring Commo, which might count as changing your "dialing setup". The latter option requires money (for the modem and serial cable); the former requires assistance from a sighted assistant. The third option, of course, is to leave everything unchanged, and use the Linux "ispnptools" to query the ISA Plug and Play controller chip at boot time for your internal modem's IRQ and I/O base address values, and feed those values to the "setserial" program to initialise your internal modem's serial port correctly. I could be missing something, but I hope that helps. -- Cheers, Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based, Rick Moen not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed, rick@linuxmafia.com modern-American-English-usage-improvement association. ----- End forwarded message ----- From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Aug 25 10:48:53 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1C01tF-0008SC-GK by authid for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2004 10:48:53 -0700 Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 10:48:53 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20040825174853.GS13688@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Subject: [conspire] (forw) Re: help? X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 17:48:53 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 546 Lines: 20 ----- Forwarded message from "Grant E. Metcalf" ----- Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 09:33:43 -0700 (PDT) From: "Grant E. Metcalf" To: Rick Moen Subject: Re: help? Y-e-a-h! ;_) I'll take sometime to digest this and see what is preferable for me. Off hand, Commo is configured to run on com3 'por=3,3e8,5'. Sounds like you are right about doing some internal switching, etc. Grant On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, Rick Moen wrote: [snip Grant's quoting of my entire prior message] From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Aug 25 10:49:13 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1C01tZ-0008TE-C5 by authid for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2004 10:49:13 -0700 Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 10:49:13 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20040825174913.GA32528@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Subject: [conspire] (forw) Re: help? X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 17:49:13 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2414 Lines: 67 ----- Forwarded message from Rick Moen ----- Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 10:48:17 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: "Grant E. Metcalf" Subject: Re: help? Hi, Grant. Parsing that string from Commo, it seems to be saying Port = 3 (i.e., COM3) I/O base address = 3e8 hexadecimal IRQ = 5 This illustrates my earlier point that hardly anyone uses the supposedly "standard" IRQ assignments of IRQ4 for COM3 and IRQ3 for COM4, because those duplicate the IRQ assignments for COM1 and COM2, respectively. Here is are the complete set of "standard" hardware resources for all four ports, for your reference: COM1 3F8 IRQ4 COM2 2F8 IRQ3 COM3 3E8 IRQ4 COM4 2E8 IRQ3 So, you could (with assistance) disable your built-in COM2, verify that your speech synth is on COM1 and still functional, rejumper your internal modem to be COM2 (and disable "Plug and Play mode", if possible), and (finally) reconfigure Commo to use COM2. COM2 is so highly standardised that you probably don't need to also tell it "por=2,2f8,3", but those would be the correct values if such are required. (It's been many years since I used Commo, so I can't recall its configuration details. I was mostly a user of -- variously -- Telix, Qmodem, and Procomm.) Having done all that, making Linux use your modem via device file /dev/ttyS1 (COM2) would then be incredibly easy: Any Linux distribution should already include in its startup scripts a "setserial" command to correctly initialise /dev/ttyS1. As a convenience, you would also want to create a symbolic link (an abstract "pointer" pseudo-file) of /dev/modem, pointing to /dev/ttyS1 , via the following command (issued while you are the root user): ln -s /dev/ttyS1 /dev/modem That symbolic link then becomes a handy alias for your modem device. Linux systems typically also have symbolic links /dev/mouse and /dev/cdrom , for similar purposes. But you are perhaps seeing some of the reasons why I personally prefer using external modems: They avoid all of this nonsense from the beginning. There are more-compelling reasons, but they are beyond the scope of this discussion -- and are already covered in my essay on the subject. -- Cheers, Rick Moen "vi is my shepherd; I shall not font." rick@linuxmafia.com -- Psalm 0.1 beta ----- End forwarded message ----- From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Wed Aug 25 18:19:01 2004 Received: from web60804.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.67]:48147) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1C08um-0002VB-AY for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2004 18:19:01 -0700 Message-ID: <20040826011857.28639.qmail@web60804.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.187.26] by web60804.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 25 Aug 2004 18:18:57 PDT Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 18:18:57 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.155.196.67 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [conspire] Re: conspire Digest, Vol 15, Issue 13 X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 01:19:01 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 246 Lines: 10 my neighbor w the 2 suns has >1 spare older usr ext. modem, will try talking nice to him 2 get 1 4u. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Fri Aug 27 01:45:12 2004 Received: from web60804.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.67]:26729) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1C0cM7-0003g7-GY for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2004 01:45:12 -0700 Message-ID: <20040827084510.74133.qmail@web60804.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.187.7] by web60804.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 27 Aug 2004 01:45:10 PDT Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 01:45:10 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.155.196.67 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1688872506-1093596310=:71568" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [conspire] Re: conspire Digest, Vol 15, Issue 14 X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 08:45:12 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 856 Lines: 19 --0-1688872506-1093596310=:71568 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii my dvd playing rig failed to play kill billm last night, i'd like 2get something other than w98 playing css -ed dvd's, c u Sat. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. --0-1688872506-1093596310=:71568 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
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Enter now. --0-1688872506-1093596310=:71568-- From skiffworks@earthlink.net Fri Aug 27 05:57:28 2004 Received: from grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.46]:51695) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1C0gIE-0004yO-Fv for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2004 05:57:27 -0700 Received: from cpe-24-221-189-101.ca.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.189.101] helo=skiffworks) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1C0gIB-0001VP-00 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Fri, 27 Aug 2004 05:57:19 -0700 Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 06:01:12 -0700 From: Bill Stoye To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-Id: <20040827060112.5c1586a2.skiffworks@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <20040827084510.74133.qmail@web60804.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040827084510.74133.qmail@web60804.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.6claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 207.217.120.46 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: skiffworks@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: conspire Digest, Vol 15, Issue 14 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 12:57:28 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 372 Lines: 13 I don't like the title anyway! Bill On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 01:45:10 -0700 (PDT) bruce coston wrote: > my dvd playing rig failed to play kill billm last night, i'd like 2get something other than w98 playing css -ed dvd's, c u Sat. > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. From rossbernheim@speakeasy.net Fri Aug 27 20:40:47 2004 Received: from mail5.speakeasy.net ([216.254.0.205]:37832) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1C0u54-0001To-2E for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2004 20:40:47 -0700 Received: (qmail 24137 invoked from network); 28 Aug 2004 03:40:48 -0000 Received: from dsl081-048-086.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net (HELO speakeasy.net) (rossbernheim@[64.81.48.86]) (envelope-sender ) by mail5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 28 Aug 2004 03:40:48 -0000 Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 20:45:13 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Ross Bernheim To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.254.0.205 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rossbernheim@speakeasy.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 22:07:30 -0700 Subject: [conspire] Re: conspire Digest, Vol 15, Issue 15 X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 03:40:47 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 479 Lines: 18 On Friday, August 27, 2004, at 08:39 PM, conspire-request@linuxmafia.com wrote: > my dvd playing rig failed to play kill billm last night, i'd like 2get > something other than w98 playing css -ed dvd's, c u Sat. Libdecss and m-player work well for me. There are a number of other players. Gnome and KDE both have favored players, and there is video lan client (VLC) as well. Some have fancier interfaces, but m-player works for me when the others have problems. Ross From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Aug 31 17:45:26 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1C2JFe-0002wg-QB by authid for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2004 17:45:26 -0700 Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 17:45:26 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20040901004526.GJ15832@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Subject: [conspire] (forw) A thank you note: X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 00:45:27 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1256 Lines: 29 A note from Jose. ----- Forwarded message from jtav ----- From: jtav To: Rick Moen Reply-To: jtav Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 05:58:05 +0530 Subject: A thank you note: Hi Rick and Peter: Thanks again for the installation help I got from both of you and other guys at the meeting at your home last Saturday. Happy to report, I didn't need to purchase any external modem for my laptop, suse did care for me. >From linux I can look into my windows' *really* hiding files (tons of log files that window collect from you while running it's sh_t stuff. (*.CPY) files that windows doesn't show you EVEN if you tell it to show them. I tried some external devices linux recognize them, except for my USB-FLASH, which does have a driver for window only, I will to look their website for download. I think Suse 9.1 is JUST SO GREAT OF an OS! I am very happy with it. thanks again, Jose Get Your Private, Free E-mail from Indiatimes at http://email.indiatimes.com Buy The Best In BOOKS at http://www.bestsellers.indiatimes.com Bid for for Air Tickets @ Re.1 on Air Sahara Flights. Just log on to http://airsahara.indiatimes.com and Bid Now! ----- End forwarded message ----- From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Wed Sep 01 22:39:28 2004 Received: from web60803.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.66]:30167) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1C2kJe-0003GZ-3G for ; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 22:39:28 -0700 Message-ID: <20040902053929.39150.qmail@web60803.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.187.9] by web60803.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 22:39:29 PDT Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 22:39:29 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.155.196.66 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [conspire] Re: conspire Digest, Vol 15, Issue 16 X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 05:39:31 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 424 Lines: 14 does using the L4LINUX versions of the linux kernels seem like a good idea to anyone else? i EXPECT its a good way to test/decipher which things you need to put into your kernel when u do a compile or just take the ~7% performance hit. they have a 2.6.8.1, a 2.4.something etc. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Fri Sep 03 15:10:41 2004 Received: from web60804.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.67]:35688) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1C3MGP-0006zu-HX for ; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 15:10:41 -0700 Message-ID: <20040903221032.66952.qmail@web60804.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.187.7] by web60804.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 03 Sep 2004 15:10:32 PDT Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 15:10:32 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.155.196.67 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [conspire] Re: video box X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 22:10:42 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 528 Lines: 17 this looks like a good weekend 2 get yer ram since fry's is selling 512M for $60 and they're braggin about the timings, timings does matter when doin vid so this is a better deal 4 u that 2 weeks ago when it was 512m of still ~ddr400 for $50. %60 for 200g hd too. the micro center m/b + cpu deal may be good but no promises i didn't look too closely at the m/b reviews on the web. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Wed Sep 08 01:44:45 2004 Received: from web60808.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.71]:24007) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1C4y4F-0003LP-D8 for ; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 01:44:45 -0700 Message-ID: <20040908084447.62234.qmail@web60808.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.186.8] by web60808.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 01:44:47 PDT Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 01:44:47 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.155.196.71 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [conspire] net bsd meet tues. nights X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 08:44:45 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 288 Lines: 12 tried the net bsd meet at vito's but not at moorpark either, r they dead? is there a debian tomorrow? the web guild looks awful expensive. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Sep 08 13:06:52 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1C58iO-00075Y-9j by authid ; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 13:06:48 -0700 Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 13:06:48 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] net bsd meet tues. nights Message-ID: <20040908200648.GQ30789@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <20040908084447.62234.qmail@web60808.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040908084447.62234.qmail@web60808.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 20:06:53 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1668 Lines: 39 Quoting bruce coston (jane_ikari@yahoo.com): > tried the net bsd meet at vito's but not at moorpark > either, r they dead? Well, if it's neither at Vito's nor at the Moorpark Round Table, odds are they have indeed succumbed. The only thing I can do, at this point, is to e-mail the maintainer of www.imrryr.org, R. C. Dowdeswell, on whose Web site SFBANUG has had its page since forever (http://www.imrryr.org/NetBSD/sfbanug.html), and ask him if he knows. However, the odds are that he really doesn't: He put up a static page for them a long time ago, and hasn't attended their meetings in a long time. Therefore, most likely he really doesn't know. > is there a debian tomorrow? the web guild looks awful expensive. Silicon Valley Web Guild has always charged admission for non-members (and now wants $49 per annum for members) reminds me in that sense of the now-defunct City Java group. I debated long and hard before adding them to BALE -- but chacun a son gout. You can read their justifications, here: http://www.webguild.org/membership/ Bay Area Debian is _not_ going to have a September meeting for the simple reason that nobody called one. _You_ (or anyone else) can name a venue for October, if you want one to happen. See the "shotgun rules": http://bad.debian.net/shotgun_rules.txt Tradition suggests 2nd Wednesdays, but you can differ from that if there's any halfway sensible reason, including "I think this date works better." -- Cheers, Facta tua Restitueri ad Status Pristinus Eius. Rick Moen (May your data be restored to rick@linuxmafia.com its original pristine condition.) From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Sep 08 22:41:11 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1C5HgF-0001TR-53 by authid for ; Wed, 08 Sep 2004 22:41:11 -0700 Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 22:41:11 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20040909054111.GZ30789@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Subject: [conspire] Distros for novices X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 05:41:11 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 7461 Lines: 165 Bruce, I'm hijacking your post from svlug@lists.svlug.org, and answering it here. (I had mentioned http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/index.php?page=kicking to a tire-kicking new user wanting to try Linux and use it for his Java class.) > The Web page Rick mentioned looks good, but a little dated. Also, > looking at distrowatch.com, I would recommend the new MEPIS as a good > Knoppix derivative, despite the fact that new does imply more risk -- > unless you wanna spend a little money and/or want an easy transition > from Windows, where i recommend Xandros. But more people use RPM > distributions, despite "RPM hell". For the record, that page is kept up to the minute, and I happened to have revised a few things on it only a few hours before you posted that. Anyhow, I happen to have been discussing this matter with Earl over at EBLUG in Fremont, because I'm going to be helping them with their installfest next Wednesday. My posts: ------ Quoting Earl (innate_ideas@yahoo.com): > Great! This is our first installfest in at least a year so any help is > really appreciated. No problem. Do we have several people to help run it, such that we can divide up roles? Do we have a count of people intending to come, what they need help with, what distros they might appreciate being downloaded in advance, etc? ------ Earl -- Part of the reason I wrote with those questions earlier is that I'm downloading ISO images to update my installfest kit. I've just finished with the latest Knoppix 3.6 image for i386, and am pulling down the latest release-candidate snapshots for Debian "sarge" for i386 with the next-generation installer program. (These are the 41.7M "businessscard" and 114MB "netinst" image. Both require Internet access to complete installation.) So, I guess what I'm wondering is: What else should I ideally download in advance, that we either know or strongly suspect people will want to install? ------ Quoting Earl (innate_ideas@yahoo.com): > The usual suspects, Red Hat, SuSE, Mandrake. How dreary. ;-> Let's consider those one at a time. Red Hat: RH9's so ancient, do we really want to encourage people? RHEL 3.0 WS/AS/etc. is lawful to duplicate non-commercially, but the point is disputed by some. Maybe CentOS-3, White Box Enterprise Linux, etc.? Fedora Core 2? I have the latter; can get others if desired. Honestly, if your plan involved RH9, I'd rethink it. SUSE: I have SUSE Linux Personal Edition 9.1 and SUSE Linux "live CD" 9.1, both for i386. MandrakeLinux: I have MandrakeLinux 10.0 Community Edition (3 disks) for i586. Problem: It's supposed to be pretty buggy compared to 10.0 Official Edition, but I don't have that. ------ Quoting Earl (innate_ideas@yahoo.com): > The plan is to introduce people (probably newbies) to an easy-to-use > graphical Linux distribution. Preferably a distro they can purchase > and get paid support for. Yeah, I'm aboard with that. I'm not trying to raise pointless complications, honest. It's just that RH is a problematic case. Let's look again: o RH9's being end-of-lifed, in addition to already being obsolescent. Therefore, no support any more. o Fedora Core 2 is community-supported (and not purchasable as a boxed set), except that Prodigy Systems sells support contracts for it, a la carte. o RHEL 3.0 WS is purchasable: If we install it for people and they later buy an (expensive!) copy at Microcenter, they'll have paid support. It's lawful for us to do that for people, given that we're doing it non-commercially -- though many will raise their eyebrows and claim we're bootlegging it. I can bring disc sets for i386 and for AMD64. o The various RHEL rebuilds (Taos, White Box, Centos, FermiLinux, etc.) are community-only-supported (with minor exceptions) and not purchasable at Microcenter. Which one(s), then? The above illustrates a recurring problem in recent years: The distros LUGs would want to install for newbies (Xandros, Libranet, Lycoris, Linspire, SUSE) have generally moved towards shrinkwrap distribution, only. That's in part marketing focus, but also owes to their inclusion in many cases of non-redistributable proprietary software (e.g., Crossover Office, Adobe Acrobat Reader, Macromedia Flash player, etc.) There are exceptions: Xandros recently published Xandros Desktop OS Open Circulation Edition v. 2.5 (?). SUSE offers a 1-CD download of SUSE Personal Edition 9.1. Libranet is downloadable if difficult to get -- and has some really clever features where it can fetch from the Internet and install some non-redistributable software at the end of installation (Flash Player, Acrobat Reader, Microsoft TrueType Core Fonts). Lycoris and Linspire are shrinkwrap-only, except for occasional download "special offers", which don't permit redistribution. The SUSE and Xandros editions are redistributable if you don't charge. Libranet's redistributable without restriction. But my overall point is that LUGs wanting to make available (thus, redistribute) newbie-friendly distros are often caught up against copyright law -- not counting Libranet and Mandrake, which lack things like Crossover Office. The other problem is eternal: What does the newbie want? He mostly has no idea, except in some cases he's heard some distro name and claims he wants that without explaining why. My top recommendation, these days -- if the desktop-user Windows-oriented newbie _asks_ and has no particular reason for other preferences -- is Xandros Desktop OS 2.5. I'll install Open Circulation Edition for them, and tell them to look at http://www.xandros.com/products/home/desktopoc/dsk_oc_intro.html for the product-line big picture. It's what used to be Corel Linux OS, and is really good for fugitive Windows users. But I have nothing against Mandrake, SUSE, or RHEL 3.0 WS. [Mandrake:] > 9.2 download addition has an undeserved reputation as being buggy due > it's triggering of a fatal firmware bug in LG cdroms that rendered > them unuseable on installation. LG has a update to fix the firmware > bug. Yeah, I know. I completely blame LG (formerly named Goldstar, by the way) for selling crappy, avoidably vulnerable CD drives. Shame on them. Since we have a week before the installfest, I'll see if I can locate MandrakeLinux 10.0 Official Edition. But, if you have time, do check out Xandros. From mark@cosmicpenguin.com Thu Sep 09 06:13:01 2004 Received: from sccrmhc13.comcast.net ([204.127.202.64]:34037) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1C5OjR-0003hs-4R for ; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 06:13:01 -0700 Received: from isis (c-24-6-176-71.client.comcast.net[24.6.176.71]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with SMTP id <2004090913124001600hil0me>; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 13:12:44 +0000 From: Mark S Bilk To: conspire@linuxmafia.com, "SVLUG" Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 06:09:07 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0409090612381W.11788@isis> X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 204.127.202.64 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mark@cosmicpenguin.com Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.7 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Cc: Subject: [conspire] SuSE Personal/Prof, apt4rpm, Newbie Ed. -was- Distros for novices X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 13:13:04 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2429 Lines: 56 In-Reply-To: <20040909054111.GZ30789@linuxmafia.com> Organization: http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/911 On Wed, Sep 08, 2004 at 10:41:11PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: >... >Quoting Earl (innate_ideas@yahoo.com): >... >SUSE: I have SUSE Linux Personal Edition 9.1 and SUSE Linux "live CD" >9.1, both for i386. SuSE 9.1 Personal does not include any development tools, not even gcc or make. But the Professional version of course has everything, and it's legal to make copies of it and give them away. http://www.suse.com/us/private/products/suse_linux/prof/pers_prof.html (Lynx does not display the comparison chart properly.) If you install the Personal version, you can point the installation/ administration program, YaST, to a SuSE website from which everything missing can be installed. Also, there are apt4rpm scripts for SuSE which automatically deal with dependencies, and a site with the appropriate files which are kept closely up to date with the SuSE ftp site and other sources, and thus with bug/security fixes. http://linux01.gwdg.de/apt4rpm/home.html ftp://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/linux/suse/apt ftp://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/linux/suse/apt/SuSE/9.1-i386 This server delivers at over 100KByte/sec (at 4am to Comcast). Various SuSE fans on Usenet are very happy with it, but newbies would probably need some coaching. Actually, all computer users really need to have some idea of the meaning of bytes, files, directories, directory trees, file managers, ASCII, WP docs, executables, data, CPU, RAM, disk, MIME, etc., in order to be productive and not a nuisance to others. Otherwise they do things like writing text with MS-Word, "saving it as an icon on the desktop", and have no idea what they actually did or where their file is, and e-mailing 200KB of advertising gifs with their 6 lines of text in HTML. Kind of like teaching people what the steering wheel, brakes, traffic lights, etc., are before they drive a car. Presumably there is a level of AI that would render this unnecessary ("Computer!" "Working..."), but MS is certainly nowhere near it, judging from the appalling Windows quandaries that I sometimes try to help with over the phone. Of course the worst part is the ones that are _sure_ they don't need to learn anything in order to cope, and get angry with me for wasting _their_ time when I try to teach them. When the AI really does develop, this lot will be known as "Copper-Tops". From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Sep 09 08:37:22 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1C5QzC-0004Vr-HX by authid for ; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 08:37:22 -0700 Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 08:37:22 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] SuSE Personal/Prof, apt4rpm, Newbie Ed. -was- Distros for novices Message-ID: <20040909153722.GA30789@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <0409090612381W.11788@isis> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <0409090612381W.11788@isis> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 15:37:23 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 3337 Lines: 77 [Distribution snipped back to just "conspire". Mark, I don't do crossposts -- and also currently decline to post _many_ sorts of back-and-forth conversations to svlug@lists.svlug.org for reasons indicated at http://linuxmafia.com/bale/#svlug .] Quoting Mark S Bilk (mark@cosmicpenguin.com): > SuSE 9.1 Personal does not include any development tools, not even > gcc or make. Mark, EBLUG meets at Hurricane Electric's Internet colocation facility in Fremont; therefore, we have incredible amounts of bandwidth available to set YaST / SUSE Update loose to pull down additional packages as desired. We'd be using the CDs for the base install, with the specific intent of making good use of that venue. > But the Professional version of course has everything, and it's legal > to make copies of it and give them away. This could not possibly be true unless SUSE[1] / Novell have dropped a number of non-redistributable packages from the SUSE Linux Professional boxed set, since I checked the full package listings in SUSE Linux 8.2. As of that version, the boxed set of SUSE Linux Professional included (among other non-redistributable proprietary packages): Adobe Acroread Moneyplex OpenPBS Opera Web browser Real Networks RealPlayer8 Also as of 8.2, the boxed set of SUSE Linux Personal included all of those except for OpenPBS, and therefore _also_ was not lawful to redistribute. (Please note that I was speaking, in my earlier message, of the 1-CD _downloadable image_ -- a opposed to the multi-CD boxed set -- from SUSE Linux Personal 9.1. The 1-CD variant omits all of the above.) So, unfortunately, unless SUSE Linux has greatly changed in the last couple of versions, your statement about SUSE Linux Professional being lawful to redistribute is not correct. (The SUSE Linux Personal boxed set isn't, either.) More information at: "SUSE Product Strategy" on http://linuxmafia.com/kb/Licensing_and_Law . (I have to update that page to add the 1-CD variant of SUSE Personal.) (Before you object that Acrobat Reader, Opera Web Browser, and RealPlayer8 can be downloaded from the Internet, I'll point out that you may do that from _authorised_ download locations only: The licenses for those packages don't include the right of redistribution, which is always reserved to the copyright owner by default operation of copyright law absent a licence grant to the contrary. The other two packages aren't downloadable at all. Checking http://www.matrica.de/prodmpxwinlnx.htm, one sees that Moneyplex _is_ still in SUSE Linux 9.1 boxed-set editions, so I believe that proves my point.) > Also, there are apt4rpm scripts for SuSE which automatically deal > with dependencies, and a site with the appropriate files which are > kept closely up to date with the SuSE ftp site and other sources, > and thus with bug/security fixes. Yes, I know about all that, but thanks. [1] Yes, the name really _should_ be written "SuSE" -- and it used to be. After all, it stands for System und Softwareentwicklung, and one doesn't capitalise conjunctions. In olden days, it was in fact written S.u.S.E., warming the hearts of us punctuation freaks. But the company first dropped the periods, and then (shortly before the Novell acquisition) officially decided that "und" should be capitalised. So, it's now "SUSE". {sigh} From einfeldt@earthlink.net Thu Sep 09 10:58:21 2004 Received: from grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.46]:51217) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1C5TBX-0005Cu-Q4 for ; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 10:58:21 -0700 Received: from user-uinj882.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.121.161.2]) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1C5TBc-0006tK-00; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 10:58:20 -0700 From: Christian Einfeldt To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 10:09:51 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <0409090612381W.11788@isis> In-Reply-To: <0409090612381W.11788@isis> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200409091009.51950.einfeldt@earthlink.net> X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 207.217.120.46 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: einfeldt@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [conspire] SuSE Personal/Prof, apt4rpm, Newbie Ed. -was- Distros for novices Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_NJABL, RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Cc: SVLUG , Mark S Bilk X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 17:58:21 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2610 Lines: 60 On Thursday 09 September 2004 06:09, Mark S Bilk wrote: > In-Reply-To: <20040909054111.GZ30789@linuxmafia.com> > Organization: http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/911 > > On Wed, Sep 08, 2004 at 10:41:11PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: Hi... > > If you install the Personal version, you can point the > installation/ administration program, YaST, to a SuSE website > from which everything missing can be installed. I am a GUI-dependent simple end user, and I am able to use SuSE Pro 9.1 just fine. I can even install it, but that's probably because I have some sys admin friends whom I can call with questions. It's really a big big boost to spend some time with a newbie. It helps them get over the hump and get comfortable with Linux, and then they will never go back. > > Actually, all computer users really need to have some idea of the > meaning of bytes, files, directories, directory trees, file > managers, ASCII, WP docs, executables, data, CPU, RAM, disk, > MIME, etc., in order to be productive and not a nuisance to > others. Otherwise they do things like writing text with MS-Word, > "saving it as an icon on the desktop", and have no idea what they > actually did or where their file is, and e-mailing 200KB of > advertising gifs with their 6 lines of text in HTML. > > Kind of like teaching people what the steering wheel, brakes, > traffic lights, etc., are before they drive a car. +1 As a simple end user, I can tell you that it very much IS important to encourage the end user to develop some skills so that they are not dependent on their mentor, and so that they can be effective advocates for open source. > > Presumably there is a level of AI that would render this > unnecessary ("Computer!" "Working..."), but MS is certainly > nowhere near it, judging from the appalling Windows quandaries > that I sometimes try to help with over the phone. Of course the > worst part is the ones that are _sure_ they don't need to learn > anything in order to cope, and get angry with me for wasting > _their_ time when I try to teach them. As a simple end user, I would say that such people are wasting your time, IMHO. If you can see that they are not willing to learn from the beginning, just pass. There are tons of people like myself who are willing to learn. I'm sure that Windows tech support has horror stories abounding about end users who expect people to do everything for them for free and are not willing to lift a finger. Eventually, computers will get as easy as TiVo, but for right now, general purpose desktops or notebooks are still not completely "done". From einfeldt@earthlink.net Thu Sep 09 11:09:23 2004 Received: from grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.46]:54974) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1C5TMF-0005Nh-Jd for ; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 11:09:23 -0700 Received: from user-uinj882.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.121.161.2]) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1C5TMM-0002Hx-00 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 11:09:27 -0700 From: Christian Einfeldt To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 10:20:55 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <0409090612381W.11788@isis> <20040909153722.GA30789@linuxmafia.com> In-Reply-To: <20040909153722.GA30789@linuxmafia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200409091020.55798.einfeldt@earthlink.net> X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 207.217.120.46 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: einfeldt@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [conspire] SuSE Personal/Prof, apt4rpm, Newbie Ed. -was- Distros for novices Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_NJABL, RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 18:09:24 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2154 Lines: 44 On Thursday 09 September 2004 08:37, Rick Moen wrote: > > > But the Professional version of course has everything, and it's > > legal to make copies of it and give them away. > > This could not possibly be true unless SUSE[1] / Novell have > dropped a number of non-redistributable packages from the SUSE > Linux Professional boxed set, since I checked the full package > listings in SUSE Linux 8.2. Your point here is well taken from a legal perspective. However, in the course of filming for the Digital Tipping Point documentary, we have interviewed Nat Friedman, Miguel de Icaza, and Jack Messman, and I have informed them all that I copy SuSE 9.1 CDs and give them to friends, and they thanked me. I also told them that I pay for those CDs first. As a simple end user who can't figure out how to download stuff like that, I love the CDs. They are so handy. I think that the primary concern that Novell would have is if someone was engaged in the commercial distribution of its software products. Novell's biz model is not wrapped around sales of the software. Of course, it's nice to encourage people to get in the habit of purchasing the CDs eventually after they have tested it and like the product. But I think that a freebie to entice a newbie would be welcomed by Novell. Of course, I'm not going to put the above in our film, simply because of course Novell would like to supplement their costs from sales of the handy CDs. Of course, I also told the Novell folks that I am pushing SuSE locally with our Bay Area governments, which they appreciated. So I think that it is based on your personal intent. snip... > So, unfortunately, unless SUSE Linux has greatly changed in the > last couple of versions, your statement about SUSE Linux > Professional being lawful to redistribute is not correct. (The > SUSE Linux Personal boxed set isn't, either.) If you have any doubt about your activities, I would simply contact SuSE and let them know what you are doing. They will give you permission, depending on your purpose. It probably depends on the scale, etc. Email me if I can be of help with this. From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Sep 09 11:30:13 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1C5TgT-0005Tl-4Y by authid for ; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 11:30:13 -0700 Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 11:30:13 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] SuSE Personal/Prof, apt4rpm, Newbie Ed. -was- Distros for novices Message-ID: <20040909183013.GA19952@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <0409090612381W.11788@isis> <20040909153722.GA30789@linuxmafia.com> <200409091020.55798.einfeldt@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200409091020.55798.einfeldt@earthlink.net> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 18:30:13 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1716 Lines: 42 Quoting Christian Einfeldt (einfeldt@earthlink.net): > Your point here is well taken from a legal perspective. However, in > the course of filming for the Digital Tipping Point documentary, we > have interviewed Nat Friedman, Miguel de Icaza, and Jack Messman, > and I have informed them all that I copy SuSE 9.1 CDs and give them > to friends, and they thanked me. That's fine, but that violates the property rights of several of SUSE Linux AG's (Novell's) business-partner software suppliers. > But I think that a freebie to entice a newbie would be welcomed by > Novell. Those other firm's licensing decisions concerning their property interests aren't up to Novell. > If you have any doubt about your activities, I would simply contact > SuSE and let them know what you are doing. 1. Again, it's not up to Novell/SUSE. 2. However, the matter _has_ come up on LUG lists, and I found myself (in May 2003) conversing with Rick Holzer of SUSE's Oakland sales office. He had been saying -- and one has frequently heard this from SUSE employees -- that SUSE has no problem with people installing the retail boxed-set editions in multiple places for multiple people, as long as it's non-commercial. I said "I'm sure you honestly _do_ think this is a simple matter of SuSE itself granting permission, and your saying that does both you and your company credit", but pointed out that doing this violates the aforementioned third-party rights. He said (http://www.linux.ie/pipermail/ilug/2003-May/003062.html): "It appears that I may have mis-spoken", and hoped to get an official statement from the head of SUSE, Inc. -- which never arrived. > They will give you permission... Again, they can't. From einfeldt@earthlink.net Thu Sep 09 12:23:17 2004 Received: from mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.48]:61889) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1C5UVj-0005p1-Kt for ; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 12:23:16 -0700 Received: from user-uinj882.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.121.161.2]) by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1C5UVr-0000q2-00 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 12:23:19 -0700 From: Christian Einfeldt To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 11:34:51 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <0409090612381W.11788@isis> <200409091020.55798.einfeldt@earthlink.net> <20040909183013.GA19952@linuxmafia.com> In-Reply-To: <20040909183013.GA19952@linuxmafia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200409091134.51614.einfeldt@earthlink.net> X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 207.217.120.48 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: einfeldt@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [conspire] SuSE Personal/Prof, apt4rpm, Newbie Ed. -was- Distros for novices Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_NJABL, RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 19:23:17 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2372 Lines: 65 On Thursday 09 September 2004 11:30, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Christian Einfeldt (einfeldt@earthlink.net): > > Your point here is well taken from a legal perspective. > > However, in the course of filming for the Digital Tipping Point > > documentary, we have interviewed Nat Friedman, Miguel de Icaza, > > and Jack Messman, and I have informed them all that I copy SuSE > > 9.1 CDs and give them to friends, and they thanked me. > > That's fine, but that violates the property rights of several of > SUSE Linux AG's (Novell's) business-partner software suppliers. Ooops. Good point. Nuts. :-/ > > > But I think that a freebie to entice a newbie would be welcomed > > by Novell. > > Those other firm's licensing decisions concerning their property > interests aren't up to Novell. Yeah, good point. > > > If you have any doubt about your activities, I would simply > > contact SuSE and let them know what you are doing. > > 1. Again, it's not up to Novell/SUSE. > > 2. However, the matter _has_ come up on LUG lists, and I found > myself (in May 2003) conversing with Rick Holzer of SUSE's > Oakland sales office. He had been saying -- and one has > frequently heard this from SUSE employees -- that SUSE has no > problem with people installing the retail boxed-set editions in > multiple places for multiple people, as long as it's > non-commercial. > > I said "I'm sure you honestly _do_ think this is a simple matter > of SuSE itself granting permission, and your saying that does > both you and your company credit", but pointed out that doing > this violates the aforementioned third-party rights. He said > (http://www.linux.ie/pipermail/ilug/2003-May/003062.html): "It > appears that I may have mis-spoken", and hoped to get an official > statement from the head of SUSE, Inc. -- which never arrived. > > > They will give you permission... > > Again, they can't. Yeah, nuts, that's right. When I interviewed Richard Stallman on Saturday for the Digital Tipping Point film, he said that Argentina has come out with a totally "free software" package called etutu-e or something like that. Also, what about Knoppix? Or Xandros? Do those distros also have the same problem? > > > _______________________________________________ > conspire mailing list > conspire@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Sep 09 13:48:05 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1C5Vpt-0006C6-AU by authid for ; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 13:48:05 -0700 Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 13:48:05 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] SuSE Personal/Prof, apt4rpm, Newbie Ed. -was- Distros for novices Message-ID: <20040909204805.GB21483@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <0409090612381W.11788@isis> <200409091020.55798.einfeldt@earthlink.net> <20040909183013.GA19952@linuxmafia.com> <200409091134.51614.einfeldt@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <200409091134.51614.einfeldt@earthlink.net> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 20:48:05 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 4758 Lines: 101 Quoting Christian Einfeldt (einfeldt@earthlink.net): > When I interviewed Richard Stallman on Saturday for the Digital > Tipping Point film, he said that Argentina has come out with a > totally "free software" package called etutu-e or something like > that. Ututo-e is a distribution "en Espagñol" consisting solely of what most of us call open source, and the FSF calls "free software". ;-> Richard is forever searching for distributions that have absolutely nothing to do with proprietary (or, as he would say, "non-free") contents even as optional add-ons. For example, he's annoyed at the Debian Project for having the default Debian installer offer access to the non-free package collection, even though access to that collection is not included by default, and even though Debian is formally defined as including only the "main" collection. A definition review, in order to maintain clarity: Open source software: Software whose terms of distribution satisfy the Open Source Definition (OSD) or Debian Free Software Guidelines (DFSG) -- which documents are near-identical for historical reasons. The concept of open source roughly approximates the legal "right to fork", entailing both physical access to source code and the legal right to maintain it separately and use it for any purpose. (FSF calls this "free software".) Proprietary software: Software that for one reason or another is not open source. This includes source-available software with restrictions on either third-party development or usage. (FSF calls this "non-free software".) Divides into: Source-available (but still proprietary) software: E.g., you can get source to the Java JDK or the "xv" graphics utility, but are denied the right to maintain it independently. Or (e.g., older PGP versions) you might have the right to maintain the code but be restricted to non-commercial use without a separate for-money licence. Binary-only software: E.g., almost all winmodem drivers. The right of third-party development is a non-issue in the absence of source access -- which alone suffices to guarantee the "proprietary" classification. Usage is typically also restricted (for what it's worth). Either type of proprietary software (above) may be either: Redistributable proprietary: "Shareware", for example, always tended to be restrictively licensed (as to usage and, where possible at all, as to third-party development), but everyone was strongly encouraged to distribute it freely. (One might divide this category further between codebases redistributable without limit and those with various picky gotchas, but let's not go there. The most frequent such gotcha is "non-commercial redistribution only", e.g., YaST.) Non-redistributable: Any software for which the copyright holder hasn't granted a specific right of redistribution falls automatically into this category -- including a considerable amount of proprietary softare offered for download. Redistributable software: This is an umbrella term encompassing both all open-source software and the redistributble portion of proprietary software. Please note that the common term "commercial software" is meaningless in this context, as it can refer to either open source or proprietary codebases. Most people who say "commercial" mean "proprietary", but a minority of such speakers are just being vague. Please note, too, that the Copyright Act (in the USA; similar statutes and the Berne Convention elsewhere) in effect specifies a "default licence" for works distributed in public without explicit terms otherwise: There's an implied right to compile (if necessary) and use the work, but no right to create derivatives or redistribute. Conveying those rights requires some sort of explicity permission grant. > Also, what about Knoppix? Redistributable software only. Some proprietary packages (e.g., Atmel firmware, IPW2100 firmware, Prism54 firmware). And, oddly enough, Adobe Acrobat Reader -- which means Klaus Knopper et al. are violating Adobe's copyright, unless they've gotten permission. (Adobe licenses individual distributors: Acroread isn't otherwise lawful to redistribute -- even though you can freely download it from adobe.com and other authorised sites.) > Or Xandros? Open Circulation Edition: Redistributable software only. (Several Xandros-produced components are licensed for non-commercial redistribution.) Standard Edition: Has some non-redistributable components. Deluxe Edition: Has some non-redistributable components. From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Sep 09 17:57:54 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1C5Zjd-0007Pl-UV by authid for ; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 17:57:53 -0700 Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 17:57:53 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20040910005753.GA28149@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Subject: [conspire] Licensing wrap-up X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 00:57:54 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2880 Lines: 59 It's likely that I made everyone's eyes glaze over, by gabbing at length about licensing. But I hope y'all won't mind my summing up: A. It's tough to assess a distro's licence status because: 1. Users misunderstand: People tend to assume that things they've downloaded and not been arrested for redistributing must be lawful to distribute. Maybe someone told them so. 2. Distro staffers misunderstand: Note my exchange with Rick Holzer of SUSE USA, who honestly believed that non-commercial copying of SUSE Professional is OK -- totally in error. 3. Product literature doesn't help: It takes a lot of digging to find even the package list for SUSE Professional[1], and even then you're given no clue about which packages have distribution restrictions. B. But it remains important because: 1. We want to be legal. 2. We want to avoid ripping off programmers by violating their licence terms. (The way we reached open source was by eschewing software with ridiculous licensing, and writing replacements -- NOT by blithely ignoring those licences. The latter habit is a characteristic disease of the proprietary-OS world, not _ours_.) 3. We want to know _which_ distro media may be duplicated indefinitely without legal or other hassle -- especially for LUG installfests. C. And this problem gets bigger the more we penetrate into MS-Windows/desktop/naive-user space because they insist on proprietary goodies with distribution restrictions, that the rest of us in the Linux community long ago kissed off as we progressively eliminated _all_ proprietary packages, regardless of right to redistribute (xv, Netscape, pine, Acroread, qmail, djbdns, etc.). D. But arriving at a definitive answer would require doing a licence audit of each package -- hundreds for a typical distro. Few will have the time and energy. Anyhow, rule of thumb: If you can download a codebase, it might be redistributably licensed. If you can download it from both official and non-official sources, it's almost certainly redistributable. Thus, instinct alone would make you expect that Xandros Standard and Deluxe Editions _are_ unlawful to redistribute -- because they're available only as shrinkwrapped boxed sets. Ditto SUSE Professional and Personal Editions -- same reason. Ditto the Mandrakelinux 10.0 Official disc images that are available solely through Mandrakeclub, as opposed to the _different_ 10.0 Official images available for download. Thus, instinct alone would make you expect that Xandros Open Circulation Edition _is_ lawful to redistribute -- because you can find it in various places on the Net. And you would be correct in all of those cases. I hope that helps. [1] http://www.suse.de/us/private/products/suse_linux/prof/packages_professional/index_all.html From rick@linuxmafia.com Fri Sep 10 09:01:16 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1C5npr-0003PC-Uw by authid for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 09:01:15 -0700 Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 09:01:15 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20040910160115.GB15832@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Subject: [conspire] Just for Bruce X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 16:01:16 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1792 Lines: 46 Background: After getting tired of ignorant people complaining about "the Debian installer[sic]" for years -- as if there were one Debian installer as opposed to dozens -- I started late last year maintaining a Web page listing all known Debian installers: "Installers" on http://linuxmafia.com/kb/Debian/ Things were going swimmingly until I encountered... not just Knoppix, but also all of the myriad specialised distributions that have sprung up like weeds after a desert thunderstorm. Eventually, realising I just wasn't (at all) managing to keep up, I conceded temporary defeat and appended to the end of the "Run-from-CD Variants" section this item: * http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Debian/installers.add: Others -- Knoppix variants have emerged in such abundance that I've had difficulty keeping up, so here's a link to my to-do list for new Debian variants (which are mostly Knoppix kindred). That links to a simple text file, one distribution per line, of things I would later write up individually in HTML form -- something I've not yet had time to catch up on. Which brings us to this gobsmacker of a list, which someone just pointed out to me: List of Live CDs The purpose of this page is to provide a comprehensive, easy-to-search list of all available Linux-based Live CDs. (for more Live CD resources, visit the forums) http://www.frozentech.com/content/livecd.php OK, there are _190_ of the things listed there. 190! And I'll bet that 70%+ of them are Knoppix derivatives, and thus can install Debian. Ayy! Anyhow, since Bruce seems tempted to install every possible Debian distribution, ;-> I thought I'd offer that list to him as grist for his mill. (I think there's a large amount of overlap with my to-do list, actually.) From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Fri Sep 10 13:34:27 2004 Received: from web60809.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.72]:44656) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1C5s69-0004tR-R7 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 13:34:27 -0700 Message-ID: <20040910203429.89100.qmail@web60809.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [68.126.229.187] by web60809.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 13:34:29 PDT Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 13:34:29 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.155.196.72 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-683103125-1094848469=:88848" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_01,HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DSBL autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [conspire] different distributions X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 20:34:27 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 879 Lines: 17 --0-683103125-1094848469=:88848 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii i think i've a;ready seen that page and i'm pickier than that since i use GAG now and it only has space for 9 boot-ables __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-683103125-1094848469=:88848 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

i think i've a;ready seen that page and i'm pickier than that since i use GAG now and it only has space for 9 boot-ables

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http://mail.yahoo.com --0-683103125-1094848469=:88848-- From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Fri Sep 10 18:49:17 2004 Received: from web60805.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.68]:36153) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1C5x0p-0006Jw-KF for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 18:49:17 -0700 Message-ID: <20040911014916.28962.qmail@web60805.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.186.27] by web60805.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 18:49:16 PDT Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 18:49:16 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.155.196.68 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [conspire] to do X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 01:49:17 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 366 Lines: 13 without some impossibly good advance in supporting my legacies, looks like i'm stuck trying to get my w98 stable enough to swap boxes but it won't download critical updates, does anyone think i should bring my scanner again? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From rick@linuxmafia.com Fri Sep 10 19:02:07 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1C5xDL-0006Sg-1V by authid for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 19:02:07 -0700 Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 19:02:06 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] to do Message-ID: <20040911020206.GI21483@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <20040911014916.28962.qmail@web60805.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040911014916.28962.qmail@web60805.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 02:02:07 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 632 Lines: 21 Quoting bruce coston (jane_ikari@yahoo.com): > without some impossibly good advance in supporting my > legacies, looks like i'm stuck trying to get my w98 > stable enough to swap boxes but it won't download > critical updates, does anyone think i should bring my > scanner again? I certainly don't mind if you do. Anything I can do to help? I was actually just about to burn a couple of CDs. KNOPPIX_V3.6-2004-08-16-EN.iso debian-sarge-i386-businesscard-20040907.iso debian-sarge-i386-netinst-20040907.iso ...and the three images for Mandrake 10.0 Official Edition for i586. Anything else you'd like, please do speak up. From rossbernheim@speakeasy.net Fri Sep 10 22:32:49 2004 Received: from mail6.speakeasy.net ([216.254.0.206]:51882) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1C60V9-0007Mc-MO for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 22:32:49 -0700 Received: (qmail 17424 invoked from network); 11 Sep 2004 05:32:48 -0000 Received: from dsl081-048-086.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net (HELO speakeasy.net) (rossbernheim@[64.81.48.86]) (envelope-sender ) by mail6.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 11 Sep 2004 05:32:48 -0000 Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 22:37:30 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Ross Bernheim To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.254.0.206 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rossbernheim@speakeasy.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.7 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [conspire] Re: conspire Digest, Vol 16, Issue 6 X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 05:32:50 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 734 Lines: 30 On Friday, September 10, 2004, at 08:45 PM, conspire-request@linuxmafia.com wrote: > OK, there are _190_ of the things listed there. 190! And I'll bet > that > 70%+ of them are Knoppix derivatives, and thus can install Debian. > > Ayy! > > Anyhow, since Bruce seems tempted to install every possible Debian > distribution, ;-> I thought I'd offer that list to him as grist for > his mill. > > (I think there's a large amount of overlap with my to-do list, > actually.) Go Bruce! How big a drive is needed to hold all the different distros at the same time, and how log does it take to install them all and how long to boot them all? Got your stopwatch handy Bruce? Ross Bernheim Deafcon for owners of Siemens phones. From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Sat Sep 11 12:44:01 2004 Received: from web60806.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.69]:40881) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1C6Dmt-0002i5-Sl for ; Sat, 11 Sep 2004 12:44:01 -0700 Message-ID: <20040911194351.89613.qmail@web60806.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.187.4] by web60806.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 11 Sep 2004 12:43:51 PDT Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 12:43:51 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.155.196.69 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [conspire] Re: conspire Digest, Vol 16, Issue 7 X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 19:44:02 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 365 Lines: 10 sorry ross i'm only going to do <9 at a time and the "160g" drive is production now, not my traveling. dropping extra distro get easier when the big drive becomes traveling but w98 problems prevent that 4now. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Mon Sep 13 09:53:44 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1C6u5I-0006xs-4e by authid for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 09:53:44 -0700 Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 09:53:44 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20040913165343.GM21483@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <20040911194351.89613.qmail@web60806.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040911194351.89613.qmail@web60806.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Subject: [conspire] Installfest in Fremont (this Wednesday) X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:53:44 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1100 Lines: 27 Quoting bruce coston (jane_ikari@yahoo.com): > sorry ross i'm only going to do <9 at a time and the > "160g" drive is production now, not my traveling. > dropping extra distro get easier when the big drive > becomes traveling but w98 problems prevent that 4now. This reply is an excuse to thank everyone for participating on Saturday afternoon and evening. The company was pleasant, dinner was delightful (especially Ross's homemade sorbets), and I could swear we also got some Linux work done. Anyone who hasn't had enough of the latter should consider joining me at EBLUG (http://www.eblug.org/), _this_ Wednesday evening at Hurricane Electric, 760 Mission Court, just north of the intersection of Fremont Blvd. and Mission Blvd, Fremont. I'll be bringing my CD collection and spare ethernet cards. Hurricane Electric, being an Internet hosting facility, has _gobs_ of Internet bandwidth. I'll also bring anything else people need -- but you need to tell me in advance (i.e., ASAP). There will also be the regular SVLUG installfest this coming Saturday, but I won't be able to attend. From rossbernheim@speakeasy.net Mon Sep 13 20:51:34 2004 Received: from mail4.speakeasy.net ([216.254.0.204]:39944) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1C74Lp-00020v-1k for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 20:51:34 -0700 Received: (qmail 5054 invoked from network); 14 Sep 2004 03:51:37 -0000 Received: from dsl081-048-086.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net (HELO speakeasy.net) (rossbernheim@[64.81.48.86]) (envelope-sender ) by mail4.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 14 Sep 2004 03:51:36 -0000 Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 20:56:43 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Ross Bernheim To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-Id: <179699FE-0602-11D9-9475-000502B6180A@speakeasy.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.254.0.204 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rossbernheim@speakeasy.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.7 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [conspire] Re: conspire Digest, Vol 16, Issue 9 X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 03:51:34 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 796 Lines: 30 On Monday, September 13, 2004, at 07:44 PM, conspire-request@linuxmafia.com wrote: > This reply is an excuse to thank everyone for participating on Saturday > afternoon and evening. The company was pleasant, dinner was delightful > (especially Ross's homemade sorbets), and I could swear we also got > some > Linux work done. The synergy of open source collaberation on a project. :-)> I'm thinking of new flavors for the next Cabal meeting. Strawberry herring comes to mind. Well maybe without the herring. I've improved the pineapple sorbet, reduced the sugar syrup and increased the amount of pineapple. Also did another batch of lime, added zest to give it more lime flavor. Will have to see what else I can do between now and then. Ross An anarchist's work is never done! From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Mon Sep 13 21:04:11 2004 Received: from web60809.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.72]:42911) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1C74Y2-0002CC-Pr for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 21:04:11 -0700 Message-ID: <20040914040407.38811.qmail@web60809.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.186.6] by web60809.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 21:04:07 PDT Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 21:04:07 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.155.196.72 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1146767361-1095134647=:34869" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.7 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [conspire] Wednesday night X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 04:04:12 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 825 Lines: 24 --0-1146767361-1095134647=:34869 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii i need a ride, probably? just swapped boxes, so i will redo my big drive, internet on this box is spiffy. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! --0-1146767361-1095134647=:34869 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

i need a ride, probably?

just swapped boxes, so i will redo my big drive, internet on this box is spiffy.

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Mail is new and improved - Check it out! --0-1146767361-1095134647=:34869-- From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Mon Sep 13 21:21:12 2004 Received: from web60804.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.67]:41344) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1C74oV-0002GM-DE for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 21:21:12 -0700 Message-ID: <20040914042112.60658.qmail@web60804.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.186.6] by web60804.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 13 Sep 2004 21:21:12 PDT Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 21:21:12 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.155.196.67 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [conspire] eblug wednesday X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 04:21:12 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 528 Lines: 16 gonna try 2tell em at their site that i will try 2 b there with my 'small "box" have big drive' and am trying to get my friend Dave W. to drive me there so i can get kanotix on his box, preferrably my disk which is reiserfs3 plus an update from a lan there so he won't be r.f.s.4 either for extra safety. Dave's bought his box ~2 yrs. ago 4gamingfrom gateway, i can't get into the bios! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Sep 14 18:46:09 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1C7Os5-0000VR-6t by authid ; Tue, 14 Sep 2004 18:46:09 -0700 Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 18:46:09 -0700 To: bruce coston Message-ID: <20040915014609.GA21483@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: bruce coston , conspire@linuxmafia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: [conspire] SF Bay Area NetBSD User Group meets _tonight_ X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 01:46:09 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 455 Lines: 13 Bruce -- Something you missed, when you dropped by the San Jose Moorpark Rd. Round Table Pizza and the Sunnyvale Vito's Famous Pizza, last Tuesday: Tuesday September 7th was the _1st_ Tuesday in September. SFBA NetBSD UG meets the -=2nd=- Tuesday of every month. That's tonight. And the current leader of that group has clarified that they did indeed move their meetings to Vito's, which is at 1155 Reed Ave. near Lawrence Expressway, Sunnyvale. From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Sep 19 11:03:48 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1C962O-0008U0-7w by authid for ; Sun, 19 Sep 2004 11:03:48 -0700 Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 11:03:48 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20040919180348.GL22041@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Subject: [conspire] (forw) Re: [Smaug] SMAUG revival X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 18:03:48 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2286 Lines: 63 Anyone interested in Linux events in/near Santa Cruz, plese take note: This is TOMORROW evening. Smaug is one of two active open source groups in the Santa Cruz area, the other being Sluglug, the UC Santa Cruz student group. (There's also the old SCLUG group, run by Jay Campbell, at http://linus.got.net/ , which despite a messed-up Web front page is still around and at times active, mostly on its mailing list.) ----- Forwarded message from Rick Moen ----- Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 10:55:39 -0700 To: smaug@lists.svlug.org, sluglug@sluglug.ucsc.edu From: Rick Moen Reply-To: smaug@lists.svlug.org Subject: Re: [Smaug] SMAUG revival [Reply-To set.] Quoting Phil White (cerise@armory.com): > Remember the SMAUG (Santa Cruz Microsoft Alternatives User Group) meeting > tomorrow night (Monday). It'll be at: > > Tiny's Restaurant > 1549 41st Avenue > Capitola > 831-475-5764 > > I'll be there at 8 pm to get things going. See you there 8) Much thanks to Phil for not only getting this set up, but also finding out that this restaurant (open 24 hours) is hospitable to groups and basically a good _permanent_ meeting spot. This fixes Smaug's big, lingering problem about meeting space. Therefore, the Smaug Web site (http://www.scruz.org/) is now updated to show Tiny's as the _regular_ meeting spot. Smaug will meet there on 3rd Mondays, 8 PM. Meeting location details: Just south of 41st Avenue's intersection with Capitola Road (which itself is just south of Capitola Mall). A map, complete directions, and public transit details can be found on Smaug's Web site. (I'm not going to be able to attend, because of a conflicting obligation. If someone can write and describe the parking situation at/near Tiny's, that would be appreciated, so I can append that to http://www.scruz.org/dir.html .) -- Cheers, "Where I come from, there's nothing in the 'middle of the road' Rick Moen but a yellow line and dead armadillos." rick@linuxmafia.com -- Jim Hightower, Texas Commissioner of Agriculture _______________________________________________ Smaug mailing list Smaug@lists.svlug.org http://lists.svlug.org/lists/listinfo/smaug Smaug home page: http://www.scruz.org/ ----- End forwarded message ----- From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Mon Sep 20 01:37:13 2004 Received: from web60807.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.70]:37194) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1C9JfZ-00047K-4C for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 01:37:13 -0700 Message-ID: <20040920083713.73668.qmail@web60807.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.187.6] by web60807.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 01:37:13 PDT Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 01:37:13 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.155.196.70 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [conspire] oops, 2 ross X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 08:37:15 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 487 Lines: 15 undid some of my extended partitions but can't just expand my 1st w/o axing all in extended; need 2do some hd ju-jitsu if i'm gonna preserve that 4g of fedora2 dvd contents. didn't scrub that partition itself so a live cd w successful network should find it or maybe a kanotix ide system. Thanks 4any help, jane_ikari @ 408.735.1971 ie bruce __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Tue Sep 21 02:34:56 2004 Received: from web60801.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.64]:36327) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1C9h2y-0003mk-7h for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 02:34:56 -0700 Message-ID: <20040921093457.907.qmail@web60801.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.187.24] by web60801.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 02:34:57 PDT Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 02:34:57 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.155.196.64 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [conspire] expanded a partition X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 09:34:56 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 464 Lines: 15 trying 2get my fedora2dvd off older boxes drive, i expanded the partition on my production box 2get more space, next time booting, GAG gave me "sector boot not found or invalid" i can see that reiserfs w the kanotix cd but "grub-install /dev/hda2" didn't fix it. wondering if i should try expanding the filesystem next or more grub stuff? _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From ixian@idiom.com Tue Sep 21 08:45:47 2004 Received: from delight.idiom.com ([216.240.32.16]:39363) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1C9mpo-0005jA-HF for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:45:47 -0700 Received: from idiom.com (idiom.com [216.240.32.1]) by delight.idiom.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC5E6144106 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:45:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from idiom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by idiom.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i8LFjYb7049449; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:45:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ixian@idiom.com) Received: (from ixian@localhost) by idiom.com (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) id i8LFjWm9049438; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:45:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ixian) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:45:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200409211545.i8LFjWm9049438@idiom.com> From: Eric De Mund To: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Humans-Reply-To: Eric De Mund X-Fax: 240.282.4443 X-URL: X-Mailer: GNU Emacs 21.2.1 (i386--freebsd) X-pom: The Moon is at the First Quarter Organization: Ixian Systems, Inc. X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.240.32.16 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: ixian@idiom.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [conspire] third-Thursday-of-the-month lunch at Turmerik? X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eric De Mund List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:45:47 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 720 Lines: 23 Rick, All, This Thursday, 23 September, is the third Thursday of the month. Will there again be a Linux Consultants Lunch at Turmerik restaurant: Turmerik Multi Cuisine of India 141 South Murphy Ave, Sunnyvale, CA 94086 phone: 408.617.9100, fax: 408.617.9119 email: web: at 11:00 or 11:30am? Eric -- "All morning I worked on the proof of one of my poems, and took out a comma; in the afternoon I put it back." --Oscar Wilde Eric De Mund | Ixian Systems, Inc. | cell: 650.303.4336 email: | 650 Castro St, #120-210 | fax: 240.282.4443 http://www.ixian.com/ead/ | Mountain View, CA 94041 | Y!IM: ead0002 From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Sep 21 09:06:49 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1C9nAG-0005xM-OW by authid ; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 09:06:48 -0700 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 09:06:48 -0700 To: Eric De Mund Subject: Re: [conspire] third-Thursday-of-the-month lunch at Turmerik? Message-ID: <20040921160648.GV22041@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: Eric De Mund , conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <200409211545.i8LFjWm9049438@idiom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200409211545.i8LFjWm9049438@idiom.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 16:06:49 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 436 Lines: 25 Quoting Eric De Mund (ead-cabal@ixian.com): > Rick, All, > > This Thursday, 23 September, is the third Thursday of the month. Alas, no, it's not. rick@guido:~$ cal September 2004 Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 You missed it. Next month, then. Hint: The Consultants' Lunch date is the same as that of the BayLISA general meeting. From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Sep 21 10:59:54 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1C9ovi-0006Yo-6N by authid for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 10:59:54 -0700 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 10:59:54 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] expanded a partition Message-ID: <20040921175954.GY22041@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <20040921093457.907.qmail@web60801.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040921093457.907.qmail@web60801.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 17:59:54 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 5972 Lines: 132 Quoting bruce coston (jane_ikari@yahoo.com): > trying 2get my fedora2dvd off older boxes drive, i > expanded the partition on my production box 2get more > space, next time booting, GAG gave me "sector boot not > found or invalid" i can see that reiserfs w the > kanotix cd but "grub-install /dev/hda2" didn't fix it. > wondering if i should try expanding the filesystem > next or more grub stuff? First, ObSympathy: "Bummer." Second, mini-editorial: I personally seldom bother with tools that "expand" or "shrink" filesystems, because they have so many limitations and failure modes. For example, suppose you have a one or more filesystem as logical drives within "extended partition" /dev/hda2: You want to make the last of those logical drives bigger, stealing space from primary partition /dev/hda3. To the best of my understanding, you can't. "Nondestructive" repartitioners won't do that. And I've seen and heard about too many of those tools blowing up filesystems while trying to manipulate them. So, I simply don't trust them -- particularly since I have an alternative I prefer (about which, more below). Third, about your booting problems: If I understand correctly, you're trying to use something called "GAG" (http://gag.sourceforge.net/) in the master boot record + elsewhere in drive track zero, which you have then handing off control to GRUB (?). It's difficult to tell what boot setup you're aiming at, since you don't really specify. (I'm afraid I don't know either GAG or GRUB very well, since I use GRUB seldom and GAG not at all.) Anyhow, have you considered that GAG's own data within track zero, rather than GRUB's may have become partially scrambled by your partition operations? Let's review the bootloader process on x86 (the version that applies when using conventional IBM/Microsoft partition tables, as opposed to BSD or Solaris "slice"-oriented volume labels), as far as I understand it: When you turn on the computer, the BIOS's Int13h boot-handler routine initially has control. It reads the BIOS CMOS table to find out what are the boot devices and in what order to query them. It asks each one, in the designated boot order, whether it's in a "ready" state. (For example, if a CD, floppy, or Zip drive doesn't have media in it, it will report "not ready".) The moment the BIOS code finds the first such device (querying them in order) that reports Ready status, it loads sector zero (512 bytes) from that device into RAM, and transfers control of the computer to whatever is in that sector. In the IBM/Microsoft scheme for partitioning, sector zero on track zero of a hard drive or similar device has a predefined set of contents, by byte count: Byte 0 through 445 (446 bytes): Space for initial boot code Byte 446 through 509 (64 bytes): The partition table: four fixed-size 16-byte entries. Byte 510 through 511 (2 bytes): Recently used by NT Disk Administrator for "disk signatures"; traditionally, unused space. By virtue of being loaded into RAM and being transferred control by the BIOS boot code, whatever was in the first 446 bytes is now, at this early point in the boot process, completely in command. Initially, all it knows is its program space, i.e., the partition table contents and pair of bytes at the end. 446 bytes isn't big enough for a very sophisticated program, but you can put there something that can, as with GAG, hunt around in, say, the other, normally completely unused sectors of track zero, to find a secondary bootloader, load _that_ code into RAM, and once again transfer control. I will make a SWAG (Silly Wild-Assed Guess), based on your brief description, that that's the handoff that's failing -- and that reinstalling GAG in order to reinstall its secondary bootloader will fix it. Now, I'm also obliged to guess (because you weren't very specific) that GAG's second-stage bootloader is supposed to find some bootable filesystem of your choosing (picking it on a GAG graphical menu) and hand off control a third time, this time to GRUB, which in turn finds a bootable kernel image, root filesystem, and inital RAMdisk. For all I know, you might have somehow broken that, too, but you don't really say. Four, alternative to nondestructive repartitioners: Since I don't trust those things, what I do when I need to "resize" filesystems on a machine is as follows: 1. Reboot the machine to be resized from a Tom's Root-Boot floppy, LNX-BBC mini-CD, Knoppix CD, etc. This is so that one is certain that the victim machine's filesystems are truly quiescent before operating on them. 2. Connect up a second *ix box nearby on the same LAN. IP both boxen, so they can communicate. 3. Use rsync over ssh to copy file trees as needed for safekeeping -- usually, absolutely everything -- over to the second *ix box. 4. Blow away all filesystems to be resized, using /sbin/fdisk or /sbin/cfdisk . 5. Make new filesystems of desired size and layout, using the appropriate mkfs.* utilities. 6. Copy back contents using rsync over ssh. 7. Rewrite bootloader information. (In my case, this means just mounting the HD's root filesystem onto the maintenance disk's /mnt, then doing "lilo -r /mnt". Done.) 8. If necessary, correct /etc/fstab, to account for changed filesystem device names. 9. Reboot. Using this regimen, my data are safely backed up at every step, and I put them onto freshly made-from-scratch filesystems, instead of ones that have been worked over by resizing utilities. By preference, I actually blow away _all_ partitions before remaking any of them, and, just to make sure everything is clean, do "dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/hda bs=512 count=1" to absolutely zero out the entire sector zero contents. Only _then_ do I lay out a fresh partition table and fresh partitions. Works for Me. -- Cheers, Rick Moen This .signature intentionally left blank. rick@linuxmafia.com From ixian@idiom.com Tue Sep 21 11:32:54 2004 Received: from delight.idiom.com ([216.240.32.16]:38654) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1C9pRY-0006rq-V3; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 11:32:54 -0700 Received: from idiom.com (idiom.com [216.240.32.1]) by delight.idiom.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3779A143CD1; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 11:32:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from idiom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by idiom.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i8LGqY75074268; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 09:52:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ixian@idiom.com) Received: (from ixian@localhost) by idiom.com (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) id i8LGqWcW074217; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 09:52:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ixian) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 09:52:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200409211652.i8LGqWcW074217@idiom.com> From: Eric De Mund To: Rick Moen X-Humans-Reply-To: Eric De Mund X-Fax: 240.282.4443 X-URL: X-Mailer: GNU Emacs 21.2.1 (i386--freebsd) X-pom: The Moon is Waxing Gibbous (51% of Full) Organization: Ixian Systems, Inc. X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.240.32.16 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: ixian@idiom.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: [conspire] Re: third-Thursday-of-the-month lunch at Turmerik? X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eric De Mund List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 18:32:54 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 555 Lines: 23 Rick, ] > This Thursday, 23 September, is the third Thursday of the month. ] ] Alas, no, it's not. ] ] rick@guido:~$ cal ] September 2004 ] Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa ] 1 2 3 4 ] 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 ] 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 ] 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ] 26 27 28 29 30 Ach. So it isn't. Thank you. Until next month, then. Eric -- Eric De Mund | Ixian Systems, Inc. | cell: 650.303.4336 email: | 650 Castro St, #120-210 | fax: 240.282.4443 http://www.ixian.com/ead/ | Mountain View, CA 94041 | Y!IM: ead0002 From bill@wards.dyndns.org Tue Sep 21 14:26:29 2004 Received: from rdns.162.240.218.216.fre.communitycolo.net ([216.218.240.162]:50371 helo=jeffk.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1C9s9b-0007z1-Ec for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:26:29 -0700 Received: from c-24-6-189-52.client.comcast.net ([24.6.189.52] helo=komodo.home.wards.net) by jeffk.com with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1C9s9d-0000Jd-NI; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:26:29 -0700 Received: from bill by komodo.home.wards.net with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1C9s9c-0003wL-00; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:26:28 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <16720.40068.656667.223017@komodo.home.wards.net> Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:26:28 -0700 From: bill@wards.net (William R Ward) To: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailer: VM 7.03 under Emacs 21.2.1 Sender: Bill Ward X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.218.240.162 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: bill@wards.dyndns.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [conspire] Peninsula Linux Users' Group, Thursday, Sep 23, 2004 X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: rsvp@penlug.org List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 21:26:29 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2975 Lines: 79 We have a meeting of the Peninsula Linux Users' Group (PenLUG) this week! Here are the details about this meeting. For more information or directions go to http://www.penlug.org/ Our website is a TWiki; please feel free to create a user account and modify the website if you have something to contribute. Thanks! Date: Thursday, September 23, 2004 Time: 7:00 - 9:00 PM Location: 100 Oracle Parkway, Redwood Shores, CA 94065 Room 1op104 Conference Call: If you cannot attend in person, but would like to dial in and listen, please send mail to conferencecall@penlug.org and we will try to accomodate you. Agenda: ======= 7:00 - 8:30 PM: Presentation by Bill Crooke: "Using your GPS with Linux" 8:30 - 8:45 PM: Members' Minutes 8:45 - 9:00 PM: GnuPG Key Signing by Rick Moen 9:00 PM: Adjourn to IHOP (Belmont) for social & food time Presentation by Bill Crooke: "Using your GPS with Linux" ======================================================== This presentation will provide an brief introduction to GPS technology and history, a description of some of the challenges to writing GPS applications, as well as a review of useful applications and resources that will enable users to quickly begin using their own GPS with Linux. Bill Crooke is a software engineer who has worked on software automation and development methodologies for a living, and uses linux and his GPS as a hobby. Members' Minutes ================ Members will have an opportunity to take a few minutes to... * Describe their latest Linux discovery * Ask questions and get help from other members * Discuss Linux projects You can just stand up and talk, or give a short demo or presentation. If you need audio/visual support for your Members' Minute, please contact Bill in advance to arrange for your needs. We have a limited number of books courtesy of Prentice-Hall to give away as an added inducement to participate in this portion of the meeting. :-) GnuPG Key Signing by Rick Moen ============================== Rick Moen will lead a key signing party at the end of the meeting. To participate, send your PGP or GPG key to Rick and bring a printout of this Web page with you: http://linuxmafia.com/gpg/ (Don't print it until as close to the meeting time as possible, as keys will be added to it in the meantime!) For more information see our KeySigning page: http://www.penlug.org/twiki/bin/view/Home/KeySigning RSVP ==== Although it is NOT required, we like to have an idea of how many people to expect, so if possible please email rsvp@penlug.org if you are planning to attend. -- William R Ward bill@wards.net http://bill.wards.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Where a calculator like the ENIAC is equipped with 18,000 vacuum tubes and weighs 30 tons, computers in the future may have only 1,000 vacuum tubes and perhaps weigh 1 1/2 tons." - Popular Mechanics, ca. 1947 From timchon@sfsu.edu Tue Sep 21 15:02:49 2004 Received: from cluster1.sfsu.edu ([130.212.10.213]:40625) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1C9sij-0008GC-T3 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:02:49 -0700 Received: from horde.sfsu.edu (horde.sfsu.edu [130.212.10.203]) by cluster1.sfsu.edu (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i8LM2swj021628 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:02:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from apache@localhost) by horde.sfsu.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i8LM2phs014377 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:02:51 -0700 Received: from 63.197.87.253 ([63.197.87.253]) by webmail.sfsu.edu (IMP) with HTTP for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:02:51 -0700 Message-ID: <1095804171.4150a50bda9a9@webmail.sfsu.edu> Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:02:51 -0700 From: timchon@sfsu.edu To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: SFSU Webmail 3.2.1 X-Originating-IP: 63.197.87.253 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 130.212.10.213 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: timchon@sfsu.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [conspire] webApp help? X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 22:02:50 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1294 Lines: 27 Hello all, I've posted the following issue with no response on more specific lists. But perhaps someone out there has dealt with a similar issue. Any help would be much appreciated. Here it is: [Snip] --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I need help with a programming project. I have created some QA software in python that dynamically generates xul and it is remotely accessed on an Apache2 web server (running gentoo). The biggset problem I have right now, is that it won't display in mozilla when I try to access it remotely. In fact, I am prompted to download the file and then open it in mozilla. Upon opening the file I just see the last few lines of the code, which thanks the tester. Then, when I look at the source code of this mess, I can see the entire generated source code properly generated and formatted. Further, the python scripts that generate each application useage/log-in do send out the proper cgi content-type. I've even run a small test script output in xul from the same server, and that works too. Can anyone offer any insight or direction as to why this is happening? I'm already a week behind on the deadline. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Much thanks in advance, tim From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Tue Sep 21 21:23:47 2004 Received: from web60806.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.69]:45188) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1C9yfO-0004Dk-L4 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 21:23:47 -0700 Message-ID: <20040922042347.64443.qmail@web60806.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.186.108] by web60806.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 21:23:47 PDT Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 21:23:47 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.155.196.69 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [conspire] my Kanotix won'tt boot X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 04:23:47 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 440 Lines: 14 well taken rick, i'm not missing any data, specifically i'm getting "read only" when the permissions listed under konquerer say rw and i'm root. something more subtle ma work, so unless i succeed downloading a grub floppy in w98, i'd like to visit someone before cabal 2get 1. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Sep 21 23:56:50 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CA13a-0004ss-6Y by authid for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 23:56:50 -0700 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 23:56:50 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] my Kanotix won'tt boot Message-ID: <20040922065650.GC22041@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <20040922042347.64443.qmail@web60806.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040922042347.64443.qmail@web60806.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 06:56:50 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 605 Lines: 17 Quoting bruce coston (jane_ikari@yahoo.com): > well taken rick, i'm not missing any data, specifically i'm getting > "read only" when the permissions listed under konquerer say rw and i'm > root. Hmm, I'm not quite sure I follow what you're saying, e.g., I have no idea what Konqueror has to do with this, or what you're getting "read only" on, and what you're trying to do when you get that. > Something more subtle may work, so unless i succeed downloading a grub > floppy in w98, i'd like to visit someone before cabal 2get 1. Er, what's a GRUB floppy? I'm pretty sure there is no such thing. From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Wed Sep 22 13:47:18 2004 Received: from web60808.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.71]:32676) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CAE1B-000173-Ey for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:47:18 -0700 Message-ID: <20040922204717.56002.qmail@web60808.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.187.5] by web60808.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:47:17 PDT Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:47:17 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.155.196.71 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [conspire] GRUB floppies exist X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:47:18 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 482 Lines: 15 but u ma need 2compile them. "A particularly useful feature for testing dual and multi boot installs is that it can easily be installed on a bootable floppy which can be used to test the command syntax necessary to load each system. This can be done without committing any changes to disk, " don't worry i won't attach the manual 4GRUB __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Sep 22 14:04:49 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CAEID-0001Jv-GQ by authid for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:04:49 -0700 Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:04:49 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] GRUB floppies exist Message-ID: <20040922210449.GQ22041@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <20040922204717.56002.qmail@web60808.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040922204717.56002.qmail@web60808.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 21:04:49 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1167 Lines: 27 Quoting bruce coston (jane_ikari@yahoo.com): > but u ma need 2compile them. "A particularly useful > feature for testing dual and multi boot installs is > that it can easily be installed on a bootable floppy > which can be used to test the command syntax necessary > to load each system. This can be done without > committing any changes to disk, " Ah, so by "GRUB flopy", you don't mean "floppy on which the GRUB program is distributed for evaluation by interested users", you mean "floppy onto which bootable binary information suitable for a given specific system has been written by GRUB". OK. I'm still not sure I see the relevance. From the cited error message, it looked to me as if the error message was originating in GAG, not GRUB. In other words, it looked like a problem at the level of the first-stage bootloader operating in the MBR and elsewhere in track zero, not the secondary bootloader that is intended to run (if I understand your system description correctly) from some root filesystem's superblock. (Please consider my obligatory remark about the merits of simple boot systems to be said without my hitting you over the head with it.) From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Wed Sep 22 16:34:46 2004 Received: from web60810.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.73]:39164) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CAGdG-00027k-7u for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 16:34:46 -0700 Message-ID: <20040922233447.48266.qmail@web60810.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.186.22] by web60810.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 16:34:47 PDT Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 16:34:47 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.155.196.73 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [conspire] oops, NOT attending X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 23:34:46 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 476 Lines: 15 i expect 2miss most or all of cabal on Sat. 2attend my occasional D&D game. if u want, Calvin, i can try 2pikup that stuf on thurs. p.s. i think i got a good partitioning/s on my "160g" drive an i think i ma try 2bum some bandwidth during week. + i rescued my fedora2dvd collection of files, its on expanded prod. kanotix, not travelling. _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com From rick@linuxmafia.com Wed Sep 22 18:23:54 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CAIKv-0002mf-UN by authid for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:23:53 -0700 Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:23:53 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20040923012353.GB28458@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Subject: [conspire] Meeting dates X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 01:23:54 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1519 Lines: 34 Since BALE's back-end database is chock full o' information on upcoming holiday dates, it's possible to spot meeting-date conflicts in advance. First, CABAL's 4th-Saturday meeting day _always_ conflicts with that of the Linux group "Starship Augusta Ada" that meets in San Francisco. Oh well. The 2nd-Saturday meeting day co-exists (but doesn't conflict) with that of the Silicon Valley Electronics Fleamarket held in Sunnyvale during the non-rainy months (April - November, I think). The Fleamarket ends about 11 AM, you see. Through 2005... Saturday, December 25, 2004: Guess what? (No CABAL meeting.) Saturday, February 12, 2005: Lincoln's Birthday. (Yes, but this is the genuine Lincoln's birthday, not the "Presidents' Day" getaway weekend. That's the following weekend. So, no cancellation.) Saturday, March 26, 2005: Not a holiday in itself, but smack-dab between Good Friday and Easter Sunday. CABAL cancelled. Saturday, May 28, 2005: Memorial Day weekend, and thus also the weekend Deirdre and I will be helping to run BayCon. No CABAL. Saturday, October 8, 2005: Columbus Day weekend. [Dunno. I'll have to think about that one.] Saturday, November 26, 2005: Thanksgiving weekend. [We are so, so, not going to be there. CABAL cancelled.] Saturday, December 24, 2005: You guessed it. No CABAL. There may be others that we'll be gone for, e.g., when we'll be out of town for some commitment. Those and the above will be noted in the Web page's meeting schedule. From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Thu Sep 23 14:15:20 2004 Received: from web60809.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.72]:45340) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CAavs-0000iz-DH for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:15:20 -0700 Message-ID: <20040923211353.41486.qmail@web60809.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.187.18] by web60809.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:13:53 PDT Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:13:53 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.155.196.72 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [conspire] old boot problem after part. resizing X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 21:15:20 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 247 Lines: 10 i had already re-installed GAG before sending 1st message since gag installs ultra fast from floppy. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Sep 23 14:23:41 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CAb41-0000lr-EB by authid for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:23:41 -0700 Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:23:41 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] old boot problem after part. resizing Message-ID: <20040923212341.GD22041@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <20040923211353.41486.qmail@web60809.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040923211353.41486.qmail@web60809.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 21:23:41 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 458 Lines: 13 Quoting bruce coston (jane_ikari@yahoo.com): > i had already re-installed GAG before sending 1st > message since gag installs ultra fast from floppy. So, what you probably want to do is determine for certain which program that error message comes from, and _then_ set about fixing whichever is the correct software subsystem. That struck me as a GAG error, but I could be wrong. (Again, I have no experience at all with GAG, and only a bit with GRUB.) From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Thu Sep 23 14:44:43 2004 Received: from web60804.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.67]:41335) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CAbO2-0000qw-QK for ; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:44:43 -0700 Message-ID: <20040923214300.6466.qmail@web60804.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.187.18] by web60804.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:43:00 PDT Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:43:00 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.155.196.67 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [conspire] FOUND a power cable in blu mazda, maybe not an EV thing X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 21:44:43 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 496 Lines: 17 says "(UL) SVT 105'C ess333 VW-1 3C/18AWG 300V LONGWELL-P CSA TYPE SVT 105 ETC. standard 3 prong plug types + funny round-ish clip on cable ~11" from device end, which says "Longwell" on both plugs . i saw it earlier but after my folks trip 2 wash. they noticed and asked me. ---------if its yours, please tell me, i may totally miss Sat. 23rd CABAL. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From rick@linuxmafia.com Fri Sep 24 08:57:14 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CAsRe-0006r5-Ae by authid for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2004 08:57:14 -0700 Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 08:57:14 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20040924155714.GN22041@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Subject: [conspire] (forw) Re: [ILUG] Good open source ammunition document. X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 15:57:14 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1471 Lines: 54 Hilarious and wise. Also, the linked ZDnet UK is, for once, well worth reading to understand why Sun incessantly wastes time dissing Red Hat, Inc. I'd noticed that Sun, in its noisy "blogging" initiative by all and sundry employees, including COO Jonathan Schwartz, seemed to be mostly a one-note attack on Red Hat, as if everyone's dumb enough to believe that Linux is just one company, and dumb enough to believe Schwartz's allegation that Red Hat is proprietary software. (Schwartz actually did say that.) This article explains all that. ----- Forwarded message from Bryan O'Donoghue ----- Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 12:04:23 +0100 From: Bryan O'Donoghue To: fuzzbucket Cc: ilug@linux.ie Subject: Re: [ILUG] Good open source ammunition document. fuzzbucket wrote: >Hmmm... IBM support Open Source but very tentatively it seems: >http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=18617 >They are useful for stomping on Utah Unix vendors that suffer a >leadership anomaly, though. Interesting you should mention that, according to this http://comment.zdnet.co.uk/0,39020505,39167442,00.htm It looks like our beloved Sun source of all coffee, is aligning itself to say A: "Red Hat=Linux, Sun > Red Hat, buy Sun... we sell Solaris, Windows and err... Linux". B: blank C: profit. Works for me. -- Irish Linux Users' Group http://www.linux.ie/mailman/listinfo/ilug/ ----- End forwarded message ----- From rick@linuxmafia.com Fri Sep 24 19:22:48 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CB2D2-00020g-7C by authid for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2004 19:22:48 -0700 Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 19:22:48 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20040925022248.GC22041@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Subject: [conspire] SUSE Linux Professional boxed sets (again) X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 02:22:48 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 11946 Lines: 268 OK, I have a little time to spare, and so wanted to post something definitive on the question of non-redistributable programs in the SUSE Linux 9.1 Professional Edition for IA32/AMD64 boxed set. I have the exact boxed set in question in front of me: It's stored on five CDs (provided), or alternatively you can use a pair of double-sided DVDs. One DVD has 32-bit installer and binary packages on side A and the AMD64 equivalent on side B. The second DVD has the same division for source packages (32-bit on one side, AMD64 on the other). To recap, last time 'round, I cited the following packages in the cited distribution (_at least_), as being very definitely non-redistributable: Adobe Acroread Moneyplex OpenPBS Opera Web browser Real Networks RealPlayer8 'Cept, picture me having the following sort of early-morning telephone conversation, this morning, bleary-eyed, with a good friend who is very much a SUSE advocate (as am I, but I'm wary of violating companies' copyrights). (Dialogue is -very- loosely paraphrased.) Him: But how do you _know_ SUSE isn't shipping a version that includes permission to redistribute? Me: That's conceivable but unlikely in the case of, say, Acroread, except that you can verify for yourself that Adobe just doesn't do that. They don't want to relinquish that much control; you can download it from their authorised site but it's just not like them to say "Well, but _that_ copy is fully redistributable." But more to the point, things like OpenPBS just aren't ever downloadable at all: The company behind it strictly uses a per-seat licensing model, and wants money for each copy. If you buy a copy in SUSE, it's because SUSE Linux AG pays them, and in turn SUSE wants you to pay them. Him: But wait a second! SUSE gives aways copies, so that's not always true. Me: Yes, SUSE gives away a limited number of boxed sets. They eat the cost of fees for those, that they have to pay to licensors like the OpenPBS guys. But that doesn't invalidate my point at all. The OpenPBS guys aren't _willing_ to licence out with right to redistribute the same product that they ask a per-seat fee for. That would destroy the market for their product, inherently eviscerating their business model -- because it's not just _one_ copy they'd be authorising, but rather an infinite number of copies given the right to redistribute. Him: Giving away copies in no way destroys their ability to no longer sell them. For example, SUSE lets people copy the open-source packages in the distribution, and they're still able to sell things just fine. Me: (a bit annoyed) I wasn't _talking_ about open source. Kindly don't lecture to me about open-source sales models; I've been dealing with that topic intimately for more than a decade. I was talking about proprietary packages under a per-seat fee-dependent sales model. You can't let people also have the right to redistribute the same thing freely without shooting your company in the foot. It sort of went downhill... but my friend raised a genuine (if highly improbable) hole in the preceding discussion: o I said Adobe Acroread, Moneyplex, OpenPBS, Opera Web browser, and Real Networks RealPlayer8 are non-redistributable, period. o But I don't actually know that. Nothing is _impossible_ about each of those being available either: o in two editions, one fully redistributable and full-featured and the other redistributable but crippled in some way ("demoware", "trialware", etc.), or o in two actually identical copies, but one redistributable and the other not. The only way to know for sure is to directly examine the licensing of the software _in_ SUSE Linux 9.1 Professional Edition for IA32/AMD64. Which brings me back to the boxed set in front of me. I've grabbed: acroread-5.08-202.i586.rpm from CD1 RealPlayer-8.0.3.465-89.i586.rpm from CD1 moneyplex-5.0-188.i586.rpm from CD4 opera-7.23-29.i586.rpm from CD4 OpenPBS-2.3.16-599.i586.rpm from CD5 OpenPBS-clients-2.3.16-599.i586.rpm from CD5 OpenPBS-devel-2.3.16-599.i586.rpm from CD5 OpenPBS-mom-2.3.16-599.i586.rpm from CD5 OpenPBS-scheduler-2.3.16-599.i586.rpm from CD5 OpenPBS-server-2.3.16-599.i586.rpm from CD5 OpenPBS-utils-2.3.16-599.i586.rpm from CD5 Man, I hate having to take RPMs apart manually. _So_ messy. But: # rpm2cpio acroread-5.08-202.i586.rpm > acroread.cpio # cpio -ivd < acroread.cpio [annoying spew] Hey, there's a ./usr/share/doc/packages/acroread/LICREAD.TXT file. ADOBE SYSTEMS INCORPORATED End User License Agreement Please return any accompanying registration form to receive registration benefits. NOTICE TO USER: PLEASE READ THIS CONTRACT CAREFULLY. BY USING ALL OR ANY PORTION OF THE SOFTWARE YOU ACCEPT ALL THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF THIS AGREEMENT, INCLUDING, IN PARTICULAR THE LIMITATIONS ON: USE CONTAINED IN SECTION 2; TRANSFERABILITY IN SECTION 4; [...] 2.1. General Use. You may install and Use a copy of the Software on your compatible computer, up to the Permitted Number of computers; or 2.2. Server Use. You may install one copy of the Software on your computer file server for the purpose of downloading and installing the Software onto other computers within your internal network up to the Permitted Number or you may install one copy of the Software on a computer file server within your internal network for the sole and exclusive purpose of using the Software [...] 2.3. Backup Copy. You may make one backup copy of the Software, provided [...] 2.4. Home Use. You, as the primary user of the computer on which the Software is installed, may also install the Software on one of your home computers. However, the Software may not be used on your home computer at the same time the Software on the primary computer is being used. [...] 4. Transfer. You may not, rent, lease, sublicense or authorize all or any portion of the Software to be copied onto another users computer except as may be expressly permitted herein. You may, however, transfer all your rights to Use the Software to another person or legal entity provided that: (a) you also transfer each this Agreement, the Software and all other software or hardware bundled or pre-installed with the Software, including all copies, Updates and prior versions, and all copies of font software converted into other formats, to such person or entity; (b) you retain no copies, including backups and copies stored on a computer; and (c) the receiving party accepts the terms and conditions of this Agreement and any other terms and conditions upon which you legally purchased a license to the Software. Notwithstanding the foregoing, you may not transfer education, pre-release, or not for resale copies of the Software. Enough? Basically, non-redistributable, except under very tight-ass conditions in which _you_ are not allowed to keep a copy. Onwards: # rpm2cpio RealPlayer-8.0.3.465-89.i586.rpm > RealPlayer.cpio # cpio -ivd < RealPlayer.cpio [more spew] And we're in luck again, in that there's a ./usr/lib/RealPlayer8/LICENSE file: REALNETWORKS, INC. END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT REALNETWORKS PRODUCTS REDISTRIBUTION NOT PERMITTED I don't think we need to look further down the licence than that. Onwards: # rpm2cpio moneyplex-5.0-188.i586.rpm > moneyplex.cpio # cpio -ivd < moneyplex.cpio We appear to have a licence "auf Deutsch", in ./opt/moneyplex/lizenz.txt , which somewhat wincingly I'll feed through Babelfish: Final user license agreement The Software "moneyplex SuSE Edition" SuSE Linux 8,2, 9,0 and 9,1 is attached to the products free of charge. The use of the software is free and may take place only in the context of the following Lizenzbedingungnen. Therefore you read please the following text completely and attentively. If you do not agree with the conditions as per contract, you may not use the software. 1 use extent the use may take place only under SuSE Linux 8,2, 9,0 and 9,1. It is forbidden to you to amend the software to translate to back-develop, to dekompilieren or to disassemblieren or derived works provide. They will use of matrica offered registration possibility, in order to be able to be informed as authorized licensees registered and about updated versions of this software. The employment of the software in the context of Application service Providing is forbidden. WebBanking is a service of the T-Online AG. The use of WebBanking functionality in moneyplex can take place therefore only via customers of the T-Online AG. The use conditions of t-on-line-WebBanking are to be kept. Further information finds you on the InterNet sides of T-Online: http://www.t online.de. 2 passing on of the software the letting of the software is expressly forbidden. Again, there you have it. Last candidate, OpenPBS. Of the seven RPMs, I'll pick OpenPBS-2.3.16-599.i586.rpm (for no special reason): # rpm2cpio OpenPBS-2.3.16-599.i586.rpm > OpenPBS.cpio # cpio -ivd < OpenPBS.cpio Thus, we end up looking at the ./usr/share/doc/packages/OpenPBS/PBS_License.text file: OpenPBS (Portable Batch System) v2.3 Software License Copyright (c) 1999-2002 Veridian Information Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- For a license to use or redistribute the OpenPBS software under conditions other than those described below, or to purchase support for this software, please contact Veridian Systems, PBS Products Department ("Licensor") at: www.OpenPBS.org +1 650 967-4675 sales@OpenPBS.org 877 902-4PBS (US toll-free) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- This license covers use of the OpenPBS v2.3 software (the "Software") at your site or location, and, for certain users, redistribution of the Software to other sites and locations. Use and redistribution of OpenPBS v2.3 in source and binary forms, with or without modification, are permitted provided that all of the following conditions are met. After December 31, 2003, only conditions 3-6 must be met: 1. Commercial and/or non-commercial use of the Software is permitted provided a current software registration is on file at www.OpenPBS.org. If use of this software contributes to a publication, product, or service, proper attribution must be given; see www.OpenPBS.org/credit.html 2. Redistribution in any form is only permitted for non-commercial, non-profit purposes. [...] Wow! That's the one I thought most likely to be non-redistributable, and it turned out that I was wrong (as to non-commercial distribution). But there's still the other four. And maybe others I didn't even spot. OK, I really do think that does settle the matter. My aforementioned friend keeps trying to get a statement out of SUSE Legal Dept., with help from the Oakland sales office. That would be all very well, but (as mentioned before) it's really not up to them, since these are third-party rights we're talking about. One last thing, on a more-upbeat note: Despite the above, there's _nothing_ wrong with installing a single copy of Linux 9.1 Professional Edition for IA32/AMD64 onto some arbitrarily large number of friends' computers (in a non-commercial setting) -- provided that you avoid installing any of its "commercial" [sic], i.e., non-redistributable proprietary packages. My earlier comment about what is NOT lawful related to duplicating the distribution in its entirety. That, by contrast, is plainly unlawful. Which reminds me: Yes, I'll have that SUSE boxed set at... TOMORROW'S CABAL MEETING. Be there some time between 4 PM and midnight -- or be not there. ;-> From rick@linuxmafia.com Fri Sep 24 20:04:58 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CB2rq-0002IP-1w by authid for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2004 20:04:58 -0700 Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 20:04:58 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20040925030457.GA8237@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <20040925022248.GC22041@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040925022248.GC22041@linuxmafia.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Subject: [conspire] Re: SUSE Linux Professional boxed sets (again) X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 03:04:58 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2372 Lines: 62 Quoting myself: > But there's still the other four. Except I forgot one: # rpm2cpio opera-7.23-29.i586.rpm > opera.cpio # cpio -ivd < opera.cpio ...thus bringing to our attention ./usr/share/doc/packages/opera/LICENSE : Opera Browser Information: LICENSE.TXT =========================================== Copyright (C) Opera Software 1995-2003 IMPORTANT NOTE The Software, as defined below, is protected by copyright, which are vested in Opera Software ASA/its suppliers. Registration codes, as defined below, are protected by copyright, which is vested in Opera Software ASA. The Software and Registration Codes may only be used in accordance with the terms and conditions set out in this document. If you do not read and agree to be bound by the terms and conditions defined in this document, you are not permitted to keep or use the Software or Registration Codes in any way whatsoever and must destroy or return all copies of these items which are in your possession. [...] END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT [...] TERMS OF AGREEMENT [...] You are entitled to use your copy of the Software on one computer. "Use" means loaded in temporary memory or permanent storage on the computer. Installation on a network server for distribution to other computers is not allowed, unless you have a separate license for each computer to which the Software is distributed. You are obligated to have a reasonable process to assure that the number of persons using the Software concurrently does not exceed the number of licenses. The Software is protected by Norwegian and United States copyright laws and international treaties. You may make one copy of the Software solely for backup or a rchival purposes or transfer it to a single hard disk provided you keep the original disk solely for backup or archival purposes. You may not rent or lease the Software or copy any written materials accompanying the Software. You may transfer the Software and all accompanying materials to another individual on a permanent basis, if you retain no copies and the recipient agrees to the terms of this Agreement. Any transfer must include the most recent update and all prior versions. [...] So, basically, this RPM isn't lawfully redistributable, either -- except in the same extremely tight-assed sense the Acrobat Reader RPM was (i.e., not being allowed to retain _your_ copy). From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Sat Sep 25 13:14:50 2004 Received: from web60808.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.71]:21557) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CBIwP-0008TH-Dq for ; Sat, 25 Sep 2004 13:14:50 -0700 Message-ID: <20040925201450.97978.qmail@web60808.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.186.37] by web60808.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 25 Sep 2004 13:14:50 PDT Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 13:14:50 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.155.196.71 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [conspire] attending CABAL X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 20:14:50 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 296 Lines: 11 i guess i need to go to there if there status. the rest of my game group does some im, i don't need another spam- source in my life. im on for today __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Sat Sep 25 13:19:34 2004 Received: from web60808.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.71]:21861) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CBJ12-0000Hk-48 for ; Sat, 25 Sep 2004 13:19:34 -0700 Message-ID: <20040925201941.98772.qmail@web60808.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.186.37] by web60808.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 25 Sep 2004 13:19:41 PDT Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 13:19:41 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.155.196.71 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [conspire] Re: conspire Digest, Vol 16, Issue 18 X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 20:19:34 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 263 Lines: 11 and would somebody please come soonest and drag me to the surpluscomputers.com parking lot sale, iff convenient 4u. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From rick@linuxmafia.com Sat Sep 25 13:25:17 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CBJ6b-0000dy-2g by authid for ; Sat, 25 Sep 2004 13:25:17 -0700 Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 13:25:17 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20040925202516.GA1737@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <20040925022248.GC22041@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040925022248.GC22041@linuxmafia.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Subject: [conspire] Re: SUSE Linux Professional boxed sets (again) X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 20:25:17 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 706 Lines: 20 Corrections. I was groggy. > Him: Giving away copies in no way destroys their ability to no longer > sell them. The words "no longer" didn't belong in there. (Double negatives and sleep deficit make a poor combination.) > o But I don't actually know that. Nothing is _impossible_ about > each of those being available either: > o in two editions, one fully redistributable and full-featured ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > and the other redistributable but crippled in some way > ("demoware", "trialware", etc.), or > o in two actually identical copies, but one redistributable and > the other not. Should be "NOT redistributable". From mhigashi@myrddin.imat.com Sat Sep 25 16:45:16 2004 Received: from adsl-207-214-84-142.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net ([207.214.84.142]:54823 helo=myrddin.imat.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CBME3-0001sY-Mm for ; Sat, 25 Sep 2004 16:45:16 -0700 Received: (from mhigashi@localhost) by myrddin.imat.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id i8PNeZX11070 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Sat, 25 Sep 2004 16:40:35 -0700 Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 16:40:35 -0700 From: Mike Higashi To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20040925234035.GA10974@myrddin.imat.com> References: <20040923012353.GB28458@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040923012353.GB28458@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 207.214.84.142 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhigashi@myrddin.imat.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Meeting dates Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 23:45:17 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 352 Lines: 12 On Wed, Sep 22, 2004 at 06:23:53PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: > > The 2nd-Saturday meeting day co-exists (but doesn't conflict) with that > of the Silicon Valley Electronics Fleamarket held in Sunnyvale during > the non-rainy months (April - November, I think). March through October, actually. Next month's will be the last one for this year. Mike From bill@wards.dyndns.org Sun Sep 26 01:54:28 2004 Received: from rdns.162.240.218.216.fre.communitycolo.net ([216.218.240.162]:39997 helo=jeffk.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CBUnY-0004LW-Tj for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2004 01:54:27 -0700 Received: from c-24-6-189-52.client.comcast.net ([24.6.189.52] helo=komodo.home.wards.net) by jeffk.com with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CBUnX-0005zs-Rv; Sun, 26 Sep 2004 01:54:23 -0700 Received: from bill by komodo.home.wards.net with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1CBUnR-0003tp-00; Sun, 26 Sep 2004 01:54:17 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <16726.33721.413512.725479@komodo.home.wards.net> Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 01:54:17 -0700 From: bill@wards.net (William R Ward) To: bruce coston In-Reply-To: <20040925201941.98772.qmail@web60808.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040925201941.98772.qmail@web60808.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: VM 7.03 under Emacs 21.2.1 Sender: Bill Ward X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.218.240.162 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: bill@wards.dyndns.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: conspire Digest, Vol 16, Issue 18 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 08:54:28 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 558 Lines: 14 bruce coston writes: >and would somebody please come soonest and drag me to >the surpluscomputers.com parking lot sale, iff >convenient 4u. You didn't miss much. They mostly just had a bunch of cheap tools from China and stuff. Not much in the way of usable computers other than what they usually have in the store. -- William R Ward bill@wards.net http://bill.wards.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Help save the San Jose Earthquakes - http://www.soccersiliconvalley.com/ From rossbernheim@speakeasy.net Sun Sep 26 07:57:25 2004 Received: from mail3.speakeasy.net ([216.254.0.203]:49680) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CBaSn-0006DJ-Iu for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2004 07:57:25 -0700 Received: (qmail 5792 invoked from network); 26 Sep 2004 14:57:29 -0000 Received: from dsl081-048-086.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net (HELO speakeasy.net) (rossbernheim@[64.81.48.86]) (envelope-sender ) by mail3.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 26 Sep 2004 14:57:28 -0000 Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 08:02:46 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Ross Bernheim To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-Id: <20316EA1-0FCD-11D9-BBD2-000502B6180A@speakeasy.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.254.0.203 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rossbernheim@speakeasy.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.7 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [conspire] Re: conspire Digest, Vol 16, Issue 18 X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 14:57:27 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1288 Lines: 44 On Sunday, September 26, 2004, at 07:44 AM, conspire-request@linuxmafia.com wrote: > The only way to know for sure is to directly examine the licensing of > the software _in_ SUSE Linux 9.1 Professional Edition for IA32/AMD64. > > Which brings me back to the boxed set in front of me. > > > > I've grabbed: > > acroread-5.08-202.i586.rpm from CD1 > RealPlayer-8.0.3.465-89.i586.rpm from CD1 > moneyplex-5.0-188.i586.rpm from CD4 > opera-7.23-29.i586.rpm from CD4 > OpenPBS-2.3.16-599.i586.rpm from CD5 > OpenPBS-clients-2.3.16-599.i586.rpm from CD5 > OpenPBS-devel-2.3.16-599.i586.rpm from CD5 > OpenPBS-mom-2.3.16-599.i586.rpm from CD5 > OpenPBS-scheduler-2.3.16-599.i586.rpm from CD5 > OpenPBS-server-2.3.16-599.i586.rpm from CD5 > OpenPBS-utils-2.3.16-599.i586.rpm from CD5 OK, I have no problem with not installing from CD or DVD the above listed programs. Acroread I could download from Adobe myself, and the same with RealPlayer. I don't need the others so far as I know. Howerver, while SuSE is a nice distro, I prefer Debian or Debian derived distros for their ease of administration. Good Cabal meeting last night. Good people, good tech, good food, a good time. Ross Bernheim I only do what the voices in my cereal tell me to, vote George Bush in '04. From rick@linuxmafia.com Sun Sep 26 12:41:29 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CBetl-0007cv-90 by authid for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2004 12:41:29 -0700 Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 12:41:29 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: conspire Digest, Vol 16, Issue 18 Message-ID: <20040926194129.GN22041@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <20316EA1-0FCD-11D9-BBD2-000502B6180A@speakeasy.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20316EA1-0FCD-11D9-BBD2-000502B6180A@speakeasy.net> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 19:41:29 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2055 Lines: 47 Quoting Ross Bernheim (rossbernheim@speakeasy.net): > OK, I have no problem with not installing from CD or DVD the > above listed programs. Acroread I could download from Adobe > myself, and the same with RealPlayer. I don't need the others > so far as I know. Howerver, while SuSE is a nice distro, I prefer > Debian or Debian derived distros for their ease of administration. I feel pretty much the same, personally -- though SUSE _is_ a really nice distro with a couple of special advantages: o Good, smooth installer o Centralised administration using YaST. (People either love YaST or don't like it. I don't like it much, but recognise that others differ.) I should stress that the five I mentioned as being ones I thought were non-redistributable were just the ones I _recognised_ as likely of that variety. (I was wrong about OpenPBS.) The point is that I could have missed some. SUSE Linux AG has always tended to just throw together codebases under very diverse licensing regimes, and just say "Here's a boxed set, some of which is restrictively licensed, some of which isn't. You figure it out." The list is here: http://www.suse.de/us/private/products/suse_linux/prof/packages_professional/index_all.html That's at least several hundred distinct packages -- maybe a thousand or more. Actually checking everything would be... real work. Those five were the ones that stuck out -- but there may be others. Note: When you or I say "ease of administration", as above, what we're really talking about is ease of ongoing maintenance, e.g., the fact that upgrading Debian boxes incrementally, for indefinite periods into the future, is pretty much a no-brainer. You don't have to get and install new versions; you don't have to run new installers. You just run a couple of commands to autoupgrade everything to current release versions, and it just works. (I have Adobe Acrobat Reader on a couple of Linux boxen, but find I never use it: xpdf is basically as good, when provided with decent fonts, and is faster.) From daniel@gimpelevich.san-francisco.ca.us Tue Sep 28 10:42:02 2004 Received: from mail5.dslextreme.com ([66.51.199.81]:53732) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CCLz6-0005Jd-IM for ; Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:42:02 -0700 Received: (qmail 31616 invoked from network); 28 Sep 2004 17:41:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gimpelevich.san-francisco.ca.us) (66.218.54.163) by 192.168.8.93 with SMTP; Tue, 28 Sep 2004 17:41:53 +0000 Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:41:52 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Daniel Gimpelevich To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-AntiVirus: scanned for viruses by AMaViS 0.2.1 (http://amavis.org/) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 66.51.199.81 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: daniel@gimpelevich.san-francisco.ca.us Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [conspire] news-to-mail gateway X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 17:42:03 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 414 Lines: 8 I just took the liberty of comparing the pipermail archives of this list with the newsgroup. It would appear the news-to-mail gateway broke sometime between 3/10 and 4/21. None of the messages to the newsgroup (the vast majority being mine) since 4/21 were mailed to subscribers. Rick, any chance that when you fix the gateway ASAP that the newsgroup contents can be merged into the pipermail archives? TIA From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Sep 28 10:48:01 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CCM52-0005OD-Qs by authid for ; Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:48:00 -0700 Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:48:00 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] news-to-mail gateway Message-ID: <20040928174800.GN22041@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 17:48:01 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 677 Lines: 14 Quoting Daniel Gimpelevich (daniel@gimpelevich.san-francisco.ca.us): > I just took the liberty of comparing the pipermail archives of this > list with the newsgroup. It would appear the news-to-mail gateway broke > sometime between 3/10 and 4/21. None of the messages to the newsgroup > (the vast majority being mine) since 4/21 were mailed to subscribers. > Rick, any chance that when you fix the gateway ASAP that the newsgroup > contents can be merged into the pipermail archives? TIA I tried to diagnose the problem once or twice in the last few months, and ran out of time, each time. So, ye olde crystal ball isn't telling me much about projected repair times. From bill@wards.dyndns.org Tue Sep 28 10:49:32 2004 Received: from rdns.162.240.218.216.fre.communitycolo.net ([216.218.240.162]:46213 helo=jeffk.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CCM6R-0005Q7-CK; Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:49:32 -0700 Received: from c-24-6-189-52.client.comcast.net ([24.6.189.52] helo=komodo.home.wards.net) by jeffk.com with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CCM6K-00068N-12; Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:49:20 -0700 Received: from bill by komodo.home.wards.net with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1CCM6H-0006aS-00; Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:49:17 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <16729.42013.422795.368606@komodo.home.wards.net> Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:49:17 -0700 From: bill@wards.net (William R Ward) To: Rick Moen In-Reply-To: <20040928174800.GN22041@linuxmafia.com> References: <20040928174800.GN22041@linuxmafia.com> X-Mailer: VM 7.03 under Emacs 21.2.1 Sender: Bill Ward X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.218.240.162 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: bill@wards.dyndns.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [conspire] news-to-mail gateway X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 17:49:32 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1076 Lines: 24 Rick Moen writes: >Quoting Daniel Gimpelevich (daniel@gimpelevich.san-francisco.ca.us): > >> I just took the liberty of comparing the pipermail archives of this >> list with the newsgroup. It would appear the news-to-mail gateway broke >> sometime between 3/10 and 4/21. None of the messages to the newsgroup >> (the vast majority being mine) since 4/21 were mailed to subscribers. >> Rick, any chance that when you fix the gateway ASAP that the newsgroup >> contents can be merged into the pipermail archives? TIA > >I tried to diagnose the problem once or twice in the last few months, >and ran out of time, each time. So, ye olde crystal ball isn't telling >me much about projected repair times. There's a newsgroup? Sounds like it would probably be best to just disable posting to the group until the issue can be resolved... -- William R Ward bill@wards.net http://bill.wards.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Help save the San Jose Earthquakes - http://www.soccersiliconvalley.com/ From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Sep 28 10:55:30 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CCMCH-0005Th-RC by authid for ; Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:55:29 -0700 Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:55:29 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] news-to-mail gateway Message-ID: <20040928175529.GO22041@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <20040928174800.GN22041@linuxmafia.com> <16729.42013.422795.368606@komodo.home.wards.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <16729.42013.422795.368606@komodo.home.wards.net> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 17:55:30 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 940 Lines: 24 Quoting William R Ward (bill@wards.net): > There's a newsgroup? Mentioned on the CABAL Web page, and on BALE. This mailing list is (by intention) bidirectionally gated. Something broke the news -> list half of the gate, some months back. > Sounds like it would probably be best to just disable posting to the > group until the issue can be resolved... I could do that, but then it would be pretty difficult to debug -- and the effort of doing so -- and remove/disable language on various Web pages -- would be wasted by the need to un-do all of that same effort the moment it's fixed. I mentioned to Daniel (in person) when he brought this up that I _thought_ I'd mentioned the breakage on the newgroup side, for the benefit of anyone trying to participate, there. He says I forgot to do so. I apologised for my oversight. Which brings us to Daniel's "When's it going to be fixed?" and my "I have no way of telling you that." From bill@wards.dyndns.org Tue Sep 28 10:59:31 2004 Received: from rdns.162.240.218.216.fre.communitycolo.net ([216.218.240.162]:46322 helo=jeffk.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CCMG8-0005VO-Bb; Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:59:31 -0700 Received: from c-24-6-189-52.client.comcast.net ([24.6.189.52] helo=komodo.home.wards.net) by jeffk.com with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CCMGD-0006C9-Rl; Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:59:33 -0700 Received: from bill by komodo.home.wards.net with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1CCMG4-0006gL-00; Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:59:24 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <16729.42620.840488.463576@komodo.home.wards.net> Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:59:24 -0700 From: bill@wards.net (William R Ward) To: Rick Moen In-Reply-To: <20040928175529.GO22041@linuxmafia.com> References: <20040928174800.GN22041@linuxmafia.com> <16729.42013.422795.368606@komodo.home.wards.net> <20040928175529.GO22041@linuxmafia.com> X-Mailer: VM 7.03 under Emacs 21.2.1 Sender: Bill Ward X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.218.240.162 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: bill@wards.dyndns.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [conspire] news-to-mail gateway X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 17:59:31 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1672 Lines: 40 Rick Moen writes: >Quoting William R Ward (bill@wards.net): > >> There's a newsgroup? > >Mentioned on the CABAL Web page, and on BALE. This mailing list is (by >intention) bidirectionally gated. Something broke the news -> list >half of the gate, some months back. You could make the newsgroup moderated and set the mailing list address as the moderator address. People still use newsgroups? I thought Usenet was dead, thanks to all the spammers. >> Sounds like it would probably be best to just disable posting to the >> group until the issue can be resolved... > >I could do that, but then it would be pretty difficult to debug -- >and the effort of doing so -- and remove/disable language on various Web >pages -- would be wasted by the need to un-do all of that same effort >the moment it's fixed. Well, you could do like I said above, and create a separate list and newsgroup to debug with. Never debug in production. :-) >I mentioned to Daniel (in person) when he brought this up that I >_thought_ I'd mentioned the breakage on the newgroup side, for the >benefit of anyone trying to participate, there. He says I forgot to do >so. I apologised for my oversight. Which brings us to Daniel's "When's >it going to be fixed?" and my "I have no way of telling you that." If you're too busy to fix it, that's fine - volunteer efforts are like that. But don't leave a broken system up when there's an easy workaround. -- William R Ward bill@wards.net http://bill.wards.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Help save the San Jose Earthquakes - http://www.soccersiliconvalley.com/ From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Sep 28 11:08:47 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CCMP9-0005gW-7D by authid for ; Tue, 28 Sep 2004 11:08:47 -0700 Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 11:08:47 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] news-to-mail gateway Message-ID: <20040928180847.GQ22041@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <20040928174800.GN22041@linuxmafia.com> <16729.42013.422795.368606@komodo.home.wards.net> <20040928175529.GO22041@linuxmafia.com> <16729.42620.840488.463576@komodo.home.wards.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <16729.42620.840488.463576@komodo.home.wards.net> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 18:08:47 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1880 Lines: 46 Quoting William R Ward (bill@wards.net): > You could make the newsgroup moderated and set the mailing list > address as the moderator address. 1. I never wanted to have a moderated newsgroup. I woulnd't particularly like that as either a participant or the moderator. 2. I'm not sure how that would get posted articles over to the mailing list. > People still use newsgroups? I thought Usenet was dead, thanks to all > the spammers. Regardless of whether that's correct, what makes you think all newgroups are on Usenet? This one very obviously isn't -- as is clearly stated on the aforementioned Web pages. > Well, you could do like I said above, and create a separate list and > newsgroup to debug with. Never debug in production. :-) I already have a "test" mailing list. What I haven't had is adequate time and expertise. I've applied quantity N of each, and it apparently requires N + M to fix. > If you're too busy to fix it, that's fine - volunteer efforts are like > that. But don't leave a broken system up when there's an easy workaround. 1. The cabal.conspire newsgroup isn't broken. It works just fine. 2. The mailing list isn't broken. It works just fine. 3. The list -> news gateway isn't broken. It works just fine. 4. The news -> list gateway has recently been broken. I had thought I'd addressed the latter point by posting a news article to the newsgroup. Daniel tells me that I forgot. Happily, he's now fixed this, courtesy of point #3, above. You knew all that before your post, nicht wahr? Meanwhile, all of this has obliged me to spend time making multiple redundant explanation, including of things more than adequately described on the Web page -- despite the fact that I said I hadn't had time to fully fix the original problem described. This seems to me to indicate a communications problem. ;-> Oh well. From bill@wards.dyndns.org Tue Sep 28 11:18:37 2004 Received: from rdns.162.240.218.216.fre.communitycolo.net ([216.218.240.162]:46565 helo=jeffk.com) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CCMYb-0005k4-S6 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 2004 11:18:37 -0700 Received: from c-24-6-189-52.client.comcast.net ([24.6.189.52] helo=komodo.home.wards.net) by jeffk.com with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CCMYh-0006Li-4F; Tue, 28 Sep 2004 11:18:39 -0700 Received: from bill by komodo.home.wards.net with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1CCMYe-0006ww-00; Tue, 28 Sep 2004 11:18:36 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <16729.43772.450049.629009@komodo.home.wards.net> Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 11:18:36 -0700 From: bill@wards.net (William R Ward) To: conspire@linuxmafia.com In-Reply-To: <20040928180847.GQ22041@linuxmafia.com> References: <20040928174800.GN22041@linuxmafia.com> <16729.42013.422795.368606@komodo.home.wards.net> <20040928175529.GO22041@linuxmafia.com> <16729.42620.840488.463576@komodo.home.wards.net> <20040928180847.GQ22041@linuxmafia.com> X-Mailer: VM 7.03 under Emacs 21.2.1 Sender: Bill Ward X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.218.240.162 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: bill@wards.dyndns.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [conspire] news-to-mail gateway X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 18:18:38 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1605 Lines: 39 Rick Moen writes: >Quoting William R Ward (bill@wards.net): > >> You could make the newsgroup moderated and set the mailing list >> address as the moderator address. > >1. I never wanted to have a moderated newsgroup. I woulnd't > particularly like that as either a participant or the moderator. >2. I'm not sure how that would get posted articles over to the mailing > list. A moderated newsgroup can be defined as "a newsgroup that doesn't accept traffic unless approved by the moderator; all postings are emailed to the moderator for approval." But if the "moderator" email address is conspire@linuxmafia.com, then it will be routed to the mailing list. As long as Mailman's mail->news gateway adds the "Approved:" line, no news->mail gateway would be needed. [...] >> If you're too busy to fix it, that's fine - volunteer efforts are like >> that. But don't leave a broken system up when there's an easy workaround. > >1. The cabal.conspire newsgroup isn't broken. It works just fine. >2. The mailing list isn't broken. It works just fine. >3. The list -> news gateway isn't broken. It works just fine. >4. The news -> list gateway has recently been broken. [...] Yes, but as long as a key part of the system is broken, the system is broken. I suspect most people reading this are reading it through the mail interface, not NNTP. --Bill. -- William R Ward bill@wards.net http://bill.wards.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Help save the San Jose Earthquakes - http://www.soccersiliconvalley.com/ From rick@linuxmafia.com Tue Sep 28 11:32:14 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CCMlq-0005o2-41 by authid for ; Tue, 28 Sep 2004 11:32:14 -0700 Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 11:32:14 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] news-to-mail gateway Message-ID: <20040928183214.GR22041@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <20040928174800.GN22041@linuxmafia.com> <16729.42013.422795.368606@komodo.home.wards.net> <20040928175529.GO22041@linuxmafia.com> <16729.42620.840488.463576@komodo.home.wards.net> <20040928180847.GQ22041@linuxmafia.com> <16729.43772.450049.629009@komodo.home.wards.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <16729.43772.450049.629009@komodo.home.wards.net> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 18:32:14 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1591 Lines: 38 Quoting William R Ward (bill@wards.net): > A moderated newsgroup can be defined as "a newsgroup that doesn't > accept traffic unless approved by the moderator; all postings are > emailed to the moderator for approval." But if the "moderator" email > address is conspire@linuxmafia.com, then it will be routed to the > mailing list. As long as Mailman's mail->news gateway adds the > "Approved:" line, no news->mail gateway would be needed. That's interesting. But I'm not sure I want to get into that. The intended setup is relatively simple. I just have to figure out what broke. But that sounds like a fascinating project for someone who has a lot of free time and energy, who is willing to take on, if things go badly, debugging of newly introduced additional problems into the news system, the mail system, or both. > Yes, but as long as a key part of the system is broken, the system is > broken. And has a sign on it, saying "gateway to mailing list is broken", in the form of a post that details that. (More than one, now.) (In fact, I've just also found some newsgroup articles where I had said, at least, that I was testing to see if the news -> mail gateway was working and suspected it wasn't.) > I suspect most people reading this are reading it through the mail > interface, not NNTP. I'm not sure what your point is. If this is repeat of your earlier suggestion that I should turn off leafnode because relatively few people are (in your rather speculative estimation) using it, then I have already answered that, and see no special reason to repeat myself. From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Tue Sep 28 23:07:24 2004 Received: from web60808.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.71]:44439) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CCXcV-0001Go-H8 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:07:24 -0700 Message-ID: <20040929060638.34560.qmail@web60808.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.186.27] by web60808.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:06:38 PDT Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:06:38 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.155.196.71 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [conspire] urgent 4 Ross B. X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 06:07:24 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 496 Lines: 16 the probable e.d.o. i gave u may not like the speed the rest of your ram can handle, b. careful. good news, i got userlinux working at ross's place from web-suck 5m cd, my 1st debian testing derived distro and my 1st gnome, will retry here sometime w/o nic. prob. with screen resolution but no biggie since dad's eyes not gettin younger till the surgeon fixes them. _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From rossbernheim@speakeasy.net Wed Sep 29 20:16:29 2004 Received: from mail1.speakeasy.net ([216.254.0.201]:50725) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CCrQf-000865-8y for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2004 20:16:29 -0700 Received: (qmail 29727 invoked from network); 30 Sep 2004 03:16:32 -0000 Received: from dsl081-048-086.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net (HELO speakeasy.net) (rossbernheim@[64.81.48.86]) (envelope-sender ) by mail1.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 30 Sep 2004 03:16:32 -0000 Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 20:21:44 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Ross Bernheim To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.254.0.201 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rossbernheim@speakeasy.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.7 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [conspire] Re: conspire Digest, Vol 16, Issue 22 X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 03:16:30 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 738 Lines: 30 On Wednesday, September 29, 2004, at 08:10 PM, conspire-request@linuxmafia.com wrote: > the probable e.d.o. i gave u may not like the speed > the rest of your ram can handle, b. careful. No problem, haven't gotten around to installing them. I will be careful. > good news, i got userlinux working at ross's > place from web-suck 5m cd, my 1st debian testing > derived distro and my 1st gnome, will retry here > sometime w/o nic. prob. with screen resolution but no > biggie since dad's eyes not gettin younger till the > surgeon fixes them. His eyes won't get younger even after the surgeon fixes them. Come on by and suck more bandwidth some time. Ross I don't need an Iron Chef, I already have enough iron in my diet. From einfeldt@earthlink.net Thu Sep 30 11:23:57 2004 Received: from goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.18]:54689) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CD5aq-0004X7-V7 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 11:23:57 -0700 Received: from user-2injapb.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.121.171.43]) by goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1CD5an-0006Z9-00 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 11:23:50 -0700 From: Christian Einfeldt To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 10:38:18 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200409301038.18343.einfeldt@earthlink.net> X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 207.217.120.18 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: einfeldt@earthlink.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [conspire] keyboards, boxes, monitors available free X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 18:23:58 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 873 Lines: 22 Hi, I'm a simple end user who loves open source. I'm also the guy who is doing the Digital Tipping Point film. We filmed some folks at Picn*x 13. People give me computers because everywhere I go I rant about open source. So I have mice, keyboards, boxes, monitors, etc., and I want to make sure that these components are used to help spread open source. If you know anyone who needs stuff, please give me a call. I do tend to get stuff on a regular basis. I would prefer to give it someone in San Francisco, simply because I live and work there, and so it is much more convenient for that reason. The other thing is that I don't have a car, because I'm also a greenie and I use public transportation instead. So if you know someone with a car and Linux skills who needs stuff, please feel free to email me or call me. Christian Einfeldt 415-351-1300 From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Thu Sep 30 13:19:18 2004 Received: from web60808.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.71]:42226) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CD7ON-0005II-DP for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:19:18 -0700 Message-ID: <20040930201851.76776.qmail@web60808.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.186.110] by web60808.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:18:50 PDT Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:18:50 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.155.196.71 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [conspire] comp. hardware available from C.E. X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 20:19:18 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 775 Lines: 22 if someone has some space, i have some ability and occasional use of car to handle the donation but Christain, i phoned him, eventually wants 2 make a non-profit out of it. he's smarting from giving some people some hardware w linux and they pirated windows over it since they couldn't get help so now he wants to start with people who know some/more linux/bsd or whatever free software/s to avoid that. i can pick it up and canabilize some but space is THE problem where i'm living. i can get a little after a midnight donation to surpluscomputer.com. i'm hoping 2cannibilize a 2sided256M dimm 4myself but my greed has limits. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From einfeldt@earthlink.net Thu Sep 30 14:07:44 2004 Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.232]:35753) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CD89M-0005bK-8T for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 14:07:44 -0700 Received: from user-2ivfj2k.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.204.84]) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1CD89V-0003Je-00 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 14:07:49 -0700 From: Christian Einfeldt To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:22:21 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <20040930201851.76776.qmail@web60808.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20040930201851.76776.qmail@web60808.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200409301322.21123.einfeldt@earthlink.net> X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 207.217.120.232 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: einfeldt@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [conspire] comp. hardware available from C.E. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 21:07:45 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1048 Lines: 31 On Thursday 30 September 2004 13:18, bruce coston wrote: > if someone has some space, i have some ability and > occasional use of car to handle the donation but > Christain, i phoned him, eventually wants 2 make a > non-profit out of it. he's smarting from giving some > people some hardware w linux and they pirated windows > over it since they couldn't get help so now he wants > to start with people who know some/more linux/bsd or > whatever free software/s to avoid that. i can pick it > up and canabilize some but space is THE problem where > i'm living. i can get a little after a midnight > donation to surpluscomputer.com. i'm hoping > 2cannibilize a 2sided256M dimm 4myself but my greed > has limits. Heh. Thanks Bruce. > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > > _______________________________________________ > conspire mailing list > conspire@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Sep 30 16:18:46 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CDACE-0006Gt-O1 by authid for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 16:18:46 -0700 Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 16:18:46 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] comp. hardware available from C.E. Message-ID: <20040930231846.GJ22041@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <20040930201851.76776.qmail@web60808.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040930201851.76776.qmail@web60808.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 23:18:47 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 2407 Lines: 48 Quoting bruce coston (jane_ikari@yahoo.com): > if someone has some space, i have some ability and > occasional use of car to handle the donation but > Christain, i phoned him, eventually wants 2 make a > non-profit out of it. he's smarting from giving some > people some hardware w linux and they pirated windows > over it since they couldn't get help so now he wants > to start with people who know some/more linux/bsd or > whatever free software/s to avoid that. Necessary but not sufficient. ;-> An unpopular truth: Almost all initiatives through which volunteer technologists, to date, have attempted to help non-profits have been total failures by any rational measure. They fail for lack of buy-in (the metaphorical variety) by the non-profits' management, and those managers using a value system that differs from that of the volunteers. Technological volunteers, including the volunteer portions of the Linux and BSD communities, tend to apply the value system of a "gift culture". That is, things (including information) are valued at what you can use them for. The more your work, information, contributions of gear, etc. helps accomplish, the more valuable it is deemed to have been. However, most of the world (including managers at non-profits), most of the time, values pretty much everything at acquisition cost. The more costly and difficult something was to come by, the more valuable it is assumed (at least initially) to be. When one of the former crowd gives one of the latter crowd something at what the latter sees as zero cost, guess what happens? That valuation problem leads directly to the buy-in problem, thereafter: Your gang of computer nerds has worked its asses off assisting a school, a charity, a foundation, etc. turning scrounged machines into Linux systems, configured to within an inch of their lives. You plug them in. (You've done your best to make everything easy for the people who are the object of your generosity.) The non-profit's executive director smiles, and warmly shakes your hand. You go home. The next morning the executive director shakes his head and wonders what all that was about. Fortunately, all he had to do was smile and give a handshake, so it's obviously someone else's problem. Six months later, someone else overwrites this thing that nobody seems to be in charge of with the non-profit's one and only CD of Win98SE. From rick@linuxmafia.com Thu Sep 30 23:57:11 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CDHLq-0008RK-U0 by authid for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2004 23:57:10 -0700 Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 23:57:10 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20041001065710.GN3955@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Subject: [conspire] We get mail.... X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 06:57:11 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1291 Lines: 42 ----- Forwarded message from Rick Moen ----- Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 23:56:29 -0700 To: Dev Rana Cc: installers@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: New and looking to get started. Reply-To: installers@linuxmafia.com From: Rick Moen Quoting Dev Rana (drana@math.utexas.edu): > Hi. I have inherited a pile of old machines, and I would like to get > started with linux on one or two of them. I'm up here in Berkeley and > I've never done this before. Can you guys offer help? Sure, bring 'em on down. CABAL has meetings every 2nd and 4th Saturday (4pm to midnight), at which it's extremely common to bring machines do Linux work on. http://linuxmafia.com/cabal/ has details. That's at my wife's and my house in Menlo Park. SVLUG also has installfests every 3rd Saturday in north San Jose. See http://www.svlug.org/ for details. o Reasonable machine for a 2004 Linux desktop box, full-blown: Any PII, 256MB RAM, 20 GB HD o Minimal reasonable machine for a 2004 Linux desktop box: Any PII, 128 MB RAM, 4.3 GB HD o Minimal machine for a 2004 Linux desktop box: PentiumPro, 64MB RAM, 800 MB HD o Minimal machine for a 2004 Linux server box: 486, 32MB RAM, 500 MB HD ----- End forwarded message ----- From rick@linuxmafia.com Fri Oct 01 10:27:10 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CDRBV-0003zb-RJ by authid ; Fri, 01 Oct 2004 10:27:09 -0700 Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 10:27:09 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20041001172709.GT3955@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Subject: [conspire] Ongoing dictionary attacks on SSH daemons X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 17:27:10 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 19766 Lines: 231 Those of you running SSH daemons, be aware that there have been BIG sets of "dictionary attacks" on SSH servers all over the world, going on for the last couple of weeks. Someone has a large number of machines trying plausible user/password combinations on found SSH servers, seeing if there is any easily entrance. (All it takes is one.) You may wish to consider disabling password authentication and using only SSH keypairs, as well as restricting which IPs are allowed to connect for inbound SSH. Also worth considering is sshd-sentry: http://linuxmafia.com/pub/linux/security/ssh-dictionary-attack-blacklist Script and explanatory e-mail by Victor Danilchenko to monitor the sshd logs, detect repeated failed login attempts, notify the sysadmin of such attempts via e-mail, and blacklist hosts whence such attempts originated. Perl script. Licence terms for the script ("sshd-sentry") are unstated. (I'm writing to Danilchenko to ask if he'll open-source it.) ----- Forwarded message from logcheck@linuxmafia.com ----- To: root@linuxmafia.com Subject: linuxmafia 2004-10-01 10:02 Security Events From: logcheck@linuxmafia.com Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 10:02:10 -0700 Security Events =-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Oct 1 09:17:36 linuxmafia sshd[13515]: Failed password for nobody from 195.27.7.130 port 45280 ssh2 Oct 1 09:17:38 linuxmafia sshd[13519]: Failed password for illegal user patrick from 195.27.7.130 port 45334 ssh2 Oct 1 09:17:39 linuxmafia sshd[13521]: Failed password for illegal user patrick from 195.27.7.130 port 45374 ssh2 Oct 1 09:17:41 linuxmafia sshd[13523]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 45407 ssh2 Oct 1 09:17:44 linuxmafia sshd[13525]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 45448 ssh2 Oct 1 09:17:47 linuxmafia sshd[13527]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 45491 ssh2 Oct 1 09:17:49 linuxmafia sshd[13533]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 45552 ssh2 Oct 1 09:17:51 linuxmafia sshd[13535]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 45590 ssh2 Oct 1 09:17:52 linuxmafia sshd[13537]: Failed password for illegal user rolo from 195.27.7.130 port 45622 ssh2 Oct 1 09:17:54 linuxmafia sshd[13539]: Failed password for illegal user iceuser from 195.27.7.130 port 45659 ssh2 Oct 1 09:17:56 linuxmafia sshd[13541]: Failed password for illegal user horde from 195.27.7.130 port 45694 ssh2 Oct 1 09:17:58 linuxmafia sshd[13543]: Failed password for illegal user cyrus from 195.27.7.130 port 45732 ssh2 Oct 1 09:18:00 linuxmafia sshd[13545]: Failed password for illegal user www from 195.27.7.130 port 45764 ssh2 Oct 1 09:18:02 linuxmafia sshd[13547]: Failed password for illegal user wwwrun from 195.27.7.130 port 45802 ssh2 Oct 1 09:18:05 linuxmafia sshd[13551]: Failed password for illegal user matt from 195.27.7.130 port 45851 ssh2 Oct 1 09:18:07 linuxmafia sshd[13554]: Failed password for illegal user test from 195.27.7.130 port 45896 ssh2 Oct 1 09:18:08 linuxmafia sshd[13556]: Failed password for illegal user test from 195.27.7.130 port 45937 ssh2 Oct 1 09:18:11 linuxmafia sshd[13558]: Failed password for illegal user test from 195.27.7.130 port 45971 ssh2 Oct 1 09:18:13 linuxmafia sshd[13562]: Failed password for illegal user test from 195.27.7.130 port 46027 ssh2 Oct 1 09:18:15 linuxmafia sshd[13564]: Failed password for www-data from 195.27.7.130 port 46059 ssh2 Oct 1 09:18:17 linuxmafia sshd[13566]: Failed password for mysql from 195.27.7.130 port 46097 ssh2 Oct 1 09:18:19 linuxmafia sshd[13568]: Failed password for operator from 195.27.7.130 port 46133 ssh2 Oct 1 09:18:22 linuxmafia sshd[13570]: Failed password for illegal user adm from 195.27.7.130 port 46164 ssh2 Oct 1 09:18:24 linuxmafia sshd[13572]: Failed password for illegal user apache from 195.27.7.130 port 46223 ssh2 Oct 1 09:18:26 linuxmafia sshd[13574]: Failed password for irc from 195.27.7.130 port 46265 ssh2 Oct 1 09:18:29 linuxmafia sshd[13576]: Failed password for irc from 195.27.7.130 port 46298 ssh2 Oct 1 09:18:31 linuxmafia sshd[13578]: Failed password for illegal user adm from 195.27.7.130 port 46351 ssh2 Oct 1 09:18:33 linuxmafia sshd[13580]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 46384 ssh2 Oct 1 09:18:35 linuxmafia sshd[13582]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 46418 ssh2 Oct 1 09:18:37 linuxmafia sshd[13584]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 46473 ssh2 Oct 1 09:18:39 linuxmafia sshd[13586]: Failed password for illegal user jane from 195.27.7.130 port 46506 ssh2 Oct 1 09:18:41 linuxmafia sshd[13588]: Failed password for illegal user pamela from 195.27.7.130 port 46537 ssh2 Oct 1 09:18:44 linuxmafia sshd[13592]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 46578 ssh2 Oct 1 09:18:46 linuxmafia sshd[13594]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 46625 ssh2 Oct 1 09:18:48 linuxmafia sshd[13596]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 46665 ssh2 Oct 1 09:18:50 linuxmafia sshd[13598]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 46696 ssh2 Oct 1 09:18:52 linuxmafia sshd[13600]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 46729 ssh2 Oct 1 09:18:54 linuxmafia sshd[13602]: Failed password for illegal user cosmin from 195.27.7.130 port 46763 ssh2 Oct 1 09:18:56 linuxmafia sshd[13605]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 46807 ssh2 Oct 1 09:18:58 linuxmafia sshd[13607]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 46842 ssh2 Oct 1 09:19:00 linuxmafia sshd[13611]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 46877 ssh2 Oct 1 09:19:01 linuxmafia sshd[13613]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 46912 ssh2 Oct 1 09:19:03 linuxmafia sshd[13615]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 46952 ssh2 Oct 1 09:19:05 linuxmafia sshd[13617]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 46989 ssh2 Oct 1 09:19:07 linuxmafia sshd[13619]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47026 ssh2 Oct 1 09:19:09 linuxmafia sshd[13621]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47059 ssh2 Oct 1 09:19:11 linuxmafia sshd[13627]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47098 ssh2 Oct 1 09:19:13 linuxmafia sshd[13629]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47135 ssh2 Oct 1 09:19:15 linuxmafia sshd[13631]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47170 ssh2 Oct 1 09:19:16 linuxmafia sshd[13633]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47207 ssh2 Oct 1 09:19:18 linuxmafia sshd[13635]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47242 ssh2 Oct 1 09:19:20 linuxmafia sshd[13637]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47279 ssh2 Oct 1 09:19:22 linuxmafia sshd[13643]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47315 ssh2 Oct 1 09:19:25 linuxmafia sshd[13645]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47353 ssh2 Oct 1 09:19:27 linuxmafia sshd[13648]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47417 ssh2 Oct 1 09:19:29 linuxmafia sshd[13650]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47455 ssh2 Oct 1 09:19:31 linuxmafia sshd[13652]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47492 ssh2 Oct 1 09:19:33 linuxmafia sshd[13654]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47532 ssh2 Oct 1 09:19:35 linuxmafia sshd[13657]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47567 ssh2 Oct 1 09:19:37 linuxmafia sshd[13659]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47602 ssh2 Oct 1 09:19:39 linuxmafia sshd[13662]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47641 ssh2 Oct 1 09:19:41 linuxmafia sshd[13664]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47675 ssh2 Oct 1 09:19:42 linuxmafia sshd[13666]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47709 ssh2 Oct 1 09:19:44 linuxmafia sshd[13668]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47748 ssh2 Oct 1 09:19:46 linuxmafia sshd[13670]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47786 ssh2 Oct 1 09:19:48 linuxmafia sshd[13672]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47824 ssh2 Oct 1 09:19:50 linuxmafia sshd[13674]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47856 ssh2 Oct 1 09:19:52 linuxmafia sshd[13676]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47892 ssh2 Oct 1 09:19:54 linuxmafia sshd[13678]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47929 ssh2 Oct 1 09:19:56 linuxmafia sshd[13680]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47963 ssh2 Oct 1 09:19:57 linuxmafia sshd[13682]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 48000 ssh2 Oct 1 09:19:59 linuxmafia sshd[13684]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 48030 ssh2 Oct 1 09:20:01 linuxmafia sshd[13686]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 48063 ssh2 Oct 1 09:20:04 linuxmafia sshd[13695]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 48103 ssh2 Oct 1 09:20:06 linuxmafia sshd[13697]: Failed password for illegal user cip52 from 195.27.7.130 port 48140 ssh2 Oct 1 09:20:07 linuxmafia sshd[13699]: Failed password for illegal user cip51 from 195.27.7.130 port 48177 ssh2 Oct 1 09:20:10 linuxmafia sshd[13701]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 48209 ssh2 Oct 1 09:20:12 linuxmafia sshd[13705]: Failed password for illegal user noc from 195.27.7.130 port 48261 ssh2 Oct 1 09:20:14 linuxmafia sshd[13709]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 48297 ssh2 Oct 1 09:20:16 linuxmafia sshd[13713]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 48329 ssh2 Oct 1 09:20:18 linuxmafia sshd[13718]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 48364 ssh2 Oct 1 09:20:20 linuxmafia sshd[13720]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 48394 ssh2 Oct 1 09:20:22 linuxmafia sshd[13722]: Failed password for illegal user webmaster from 195.27.7.130 port 48434 ssh2 Oct 1 09:20:23 linuxmafia sshd[13724]: Failed password for illegal user data from 195.27.7.130 port 48462 ssh2 Oct 1 09:20:25 linuxmafia sshd[13726]: Failed password for illegal user user from 195.27.7.130 port 48494 ssh2 Oct 1 09:20:27 linuxmafia sshd[13728]: Failed password for illegal user user from 195.27.7.130 port 48527 ssh2 Oct 1 09:20:29 linuxmafia sshd[13730]: Failed password for illegal user user from 195.27.7.130 port 48559 ssh2 Oct 1 09:20:31 linuxmafia sshd[13734]: Failed password for illegal user web from 195.27.7.130 port 48595 ssh2 Oct 1 09:20:33 linuxmafia sshd[13736]: Failed password for illegal user web from 195.27.7.130 port 48626 ssh2 Oct 1 09:20:35 linuxmafia sshd[13738]: Failed password for illegal user oracle from 195.27.7.130 port 48656 ssh2 Oct 1 09:20:39 linuxmafia sshd[13742]: Failed password for illegal user sybase from 195.27.7.130 port 48697 ssh2 Oct 1 09:20:41 linuxmafia sshd[13744]: Failed password for illegal user master from 195.27.7.130 port 48757 ssh2 Oct 1 09:20:42 linuxmafia sshd[13748]: Failed password for illegal user account from 195.27.7.130 port 48793 ssh2 Oct 1 09:20:44 linuxmafia sshd[13750]: Failed password for backup from 195.27.7.130 port 48823 ssh2 Oct 1 09:20:46 linuxmafia sshd[13752]: Failed password for illegal user server from 195.27.7.130 port 48861 ssh2 Oct 1 09:20:48 linuxmafia sshd[13754]: Failed password for illegal user adam from 195.27.7.130 port 48886 ssh2 Oct 1 09:20:51 linuxmafia sshd[13756]: Failed password for illegal user alan from 195.27.7.130 port 48923 ssh2 Oct 1 09:20:56 linuxmafia sshd[13758]: Failed password for illegal user frank from 195.27.7.130 port 48981 ssh2 Oct 1 09:20:58 linuxmafia sshd[13760]: Failed password for illegal user george from 195.27.7.130 port 49061 ssh2 Oct 1 09:21:00 linuxmafia sshd[13762]: Failed password for illegal user henry from 195.27.7.130 port 49093 ssh2 Oct 1 09:21:02 linuxmafia sshd[13766]: Failed password for illegal user john from 195.27.7.130 port 49132 ssh2 Oct 1 09:21:07 linuxmafia sshd[13768]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 49163 ssh2 Oct 1 09:21:09 linuxmafia sshd[13770]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 49249 ssh2 Oct 1 09:21:11 linuxmafia sshd[13772]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 49282 ssh2 Oct 1 09:21:13 linuxmafia sshd[13774]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 49321 ssh2 Oct 1 09:21:15 linuxmafia sshd[13776]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 49362 ssh2 Oct 1 09:21:20 linuxmafia sshd[13779]: Failed password for illegal user test from 195.27.7.130 port 49399 ssh2 System Events =-=-=-=-=-=-= Oct 1 09:10:53 linuxmafia sshd[13456]: Did not receive identification string from 195.27.7.130 Oct 1 09:17:37 linuxmafia sshd[13519]: Illegal user patrick from 195.27.7.130 Oct 1 09:17:38 linuxmafia sshd[13519]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER Oct 1 09:17:39 linuxmafia sshd[13521]: Illegal user patrick from 195.27.7.130 Oct 1 09:17:39 linuxmafia sshd[13521]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER Oct 1 09:17:52 linuxmafia sshd[13537]: Illegal user rolo from 195.27.7.130 Oct 1 09:17:52 linuxmafia sshd[13537]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER Oct 1 09:17:54 linuxmafia sshd[13539]: Illegal user iceuser from 195.27.7.130 Oct 1 09:17:54 linuxmafia sshd[13539]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER Oct 1 09:17:56 linuxmafia sshd[13541]: Illegal user horde from 195.27.7.130 Oct 1 09:17:56 linuxmafia sshd[13541]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER Oct 1 09:17:58 linuxmafia sshd[13543]: Illegal user cyrus from 195.27.7.130 Oct 1 09:17:58 linuxmafia sshd[13543]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER Oct 1 09:18:00 linuxmafia sshd[13545]: Illegal user www from 195.27.7.130 Oct 1 09:18:00 linuxmafia sshd[13545]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER Oct 1 09:18:02 linuxmafia sshd[13547]: Illegal user wwwrun from 195.27.7.130 Oct 1 09:18:02 linuxmafia sshd[13547]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER Oct 1 09:18:05 linuxmafia sshd[13551]: Illegal user matt from 195.27.7.130 Oct 1 09:18:05 linuxmafia sshd[13551]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER Oct 1 09:18:06 linuxmafia sshd[13554]: Illegal user test from 195.27.7.130 Oct 1 09:18:07 linuxmafia sshd[13554]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER Oct 1 09:18:08 linuxmafia sshd[13556]: Illegal user test from 195.27.7.130 Oct 1 09:18:08 linuxmafia sshd[13556]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER Oct 1 09:18:10 linuxmafia sshd[13558]: Illegal user test from 195.27.7.130 Oct 1 09:18:11 linuxmafia sshd[13558]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER Oct 1 09:18:13 linuxmafia sshd[13562]: Illegal user test from 195.27.7.130 Oct 1 09:18:13 linuxmafia sshd[13562]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER Oct 1 09:18:22 linuxmafia sshd[13570]: Illegal user adm from 195.27.7.130 Oct 1 09:18:22 linuxmafia sshd[13570]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER Oct 1 09:18:24 linuxmafia sshd[13572]: Illegal user apache from 195.27.7.130 Oct 1 09:18:24 linuxmafia sshd[13572]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER Oct 1 09:18:31 linuxmafia sshd[13578]: Illegal user adm from 195.27.7.130 Oct 1 09:18:31 linuxmafia sshd[13578]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER Oct 1 09:18:39 linuxmafia sshd[13586]: Illegal user jane from 195.27.7.130 Oct 1 09:18:39 linuxmafia sshd[13586]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER Oct 1 09:18:41 linuxmafia sshd[13588]: Illegal user pamela from 195.27.7.130 Oct 1 09:18:41 linuxmafia sshd[13588]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER Oct 1 09:18:54 linuxmafia sshd[13602]: Illegal user cosmin from 195.27.7.130 Oct 1 09:18:54 linuxmafia sshd[13602]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER Oct 1 09:20:05 linuxmafia sshd[13697]: Illegal user cip52 from 195.27.7.130 Oct 1 09:20:06 linuxmafia sshd[13697]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER Oct 1 09:20:07 linuxmafia sshd[13699]: Illegal user cip51 from 195.27.7.130 Oct 1 09:20:07 linuxmafia sshd[13699]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER Oct 1 09:20:12 linuxmafia sshd[13705]: Illegal user noc from 195.27.7.130 Oct 1 09:20:12 linuxmafia sshd[13705]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER Oct 1 09:20:21 linuxmafia sshd[13722]: Illegal user webmaster from 195.27.7.130 Oct 1 09:20:22 linuxmafia sshd[13722]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER Oct 1 09:20:23 linuxmafia sshd[13724]: Illegal user data from 195.27.7.130 Oct 1 09:20:23 linuxmafia sshd[13724]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER Oct 1 09:20:25 linuxmafia sshd[13726]: Illegal user user from 195.27.7.130 Oct 1 09:20:25 linuxmafia sshd[13726]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER Oct 1 09:20:27 linuxmafia sshd[13728]: Illegal user user from 195.27.7.130 Oct 1 09:20:27 linuxmafia sshd[13728]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER Oct 1 09:20:29 linuxmafia sshd[13730]: Illegal user user from 195.27.7.130 Oct 1 09:20:29 linuxmafia sshd[13730]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER Oct 1 09:20:31 linuxmafia sshd[13734]: Illegal user web from 195.27.7.130 Oct 1 09:20:31 linuxmafia sshd[13734]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER Oct 1 09:20:33 linuxmafia sshd[13736]: Illegal user web from 195.27.7.130 Oct 1 09:20:33 linuxmafia sshd[13736]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER Oct 1 09:20:34 linuxmafia sshd[13738]: Illegal user oracle from 195.27.7.130 Oct 1 09:20:35 linuxmafia sshd[13738]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER Oct 1 09:20:39 linuxmafia sshd[13742]: Illegal user sybase from 195.27.7.130 Oct 1 09:20:39 linuxmafia sshd[13742]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER Oct 1 09:20:40 linuxmafia sshd[13744]: Illegal user master from 195.27.7.130 Oct 1 09:20:41 linuxmafia sshd[13744]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER Oct 1 09:20:42 linuxmafia sshd[13748]: Illegal user account from 195.27.7.130 Oct 1 09:20:42 linuxmafia sshd[13748]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER Oct 1 09:20:46 linuxmafia sshd[13752]: Illegal user server from 195.27.7.130 Oct 1 09:20:46 linuxmafia sshd[13752]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER Oct 1 09:20:48 linuxmafia sshd[13754]: Illegal user adam from 195.27.7.130 Oct 1 09:20:48 linuxmafia sshd[13754]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER Oct 1 09:20:51 linuxmafia sshd[13756]: Illegal user alan from 195.27.7.130 Oct 1 09:20:51 linuxmafia sshd[13756]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER Oct 1 09:20:56 linuxmafia sshd[13758]: Illegal user frank from 195.27.7.130 Oct 1 09:20:56 linuxmafia sshd[13758]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER Oct 1 09:20:58 linuxmafia sshd[13760]: Illegal user george from 195.27.7.130 Oct 1 09:20:58 linuxmafia sshd[13760]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER Oct 1 09:21:00 linuxmafia sshd[13762]: Illegal user henry from 195.27.7.130 Oct 1 09:21:00 linuxmafia sshd[13762]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER Oct 1 09:21:02 linuxmafia sshd[13766]: Illegal user john from 195.27.7.130 Oct 1 09:21:02 linuxmafia sshd[13766]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER Oct 1 09:21:19 linuxmafia sshd[13779]: Illegal user test from 195.27.7.130 Oct 1 09:21:20 linuxmafia sshd[13779]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER Oct 1 09:49:59 linuxmafia sshd[14198]: Bad protocol version identification 'CONNECT 82.96.96.3:802 HTTP/1.0' from 82.96.96.3 Oct 1 09:49:59 linuxmafia sshd[14199]: Bad protocol version identification 'cisco' from 82.96.96.3 Oct 1 09:49:59 linuxmafia sshd[14200]: Bad protocol version identification '82.96.96.3:802' from 82.96.96.3 ----- End forwarded message ----- From daniel@gimpelevich.san-francisco.ca.us Fri Oct 01 10:38:05 2004 Received: from mail5.dslextreme.com ([66.51.199.81]:36120) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CDRLx-000420-F7 for ; Fri, 01 Oct 2004 10:38:05 -0700 Received: (qmail 31823 invoked from network); 1 Oct 2004 17:37:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO xb9526jjhla.local) (66.218.54.163) by 192.168.8.93 with SMTP; Fri, 01 Oct 2004 17:37:58 +0000 From: Daniel Gimpelevich Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 10:37:59 -0700 User-Agent: Pan/0.14.1 (This is not a psychotic episode. It's a cleansing moment of clarity.) Message-Id: References: To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-AntiVirus: scanned for viruses by AMaViS 0.2.1 (http://amavis.org/) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 66.51.199.81 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: daniel@gimpelevich.san-francisco.ca.us Subject: Re: [conspire] Ongoing dictionary attacks on SSH daemons Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 17:38:05 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 20452 Lines: 237 Gee, and when I got attacked, the only thing that appeared in the log was: Sep 11 06:02:50 localhost sshd[13185]: fatal: Timeout before authentication for 212.48.164.71. On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 11:27:09 -0700, Rick Moen wrote: > Those of you running SSH daemons, be aware that there have been BIG > sets of "dictionary attacks" on SSH servers all over the world, going > on for the last couple of weeks. Someone has a large number of machines > trying plausible user/password combinations on found SSH servers, > seeing if there is any easily entrance. (All it takes is one.) > > You may wish to consider disabling password authentication and using > only SSH keypairs, as well as restricting which IPs are allowed to > connect for inbound SSH. > > Also worth considering is sshd-sentry: > http://linuxmafia.com/pub/linux/security/ssh-dictionary-attack-blacklist > > Script and explanatory e-mail by Victor Danilchenko to monitor the sshd > logs, detect repeated failed login attempts, notify the sysadmin of such > attempts via e-mail, and blacklist hosts whence such attempts > originated. Perl script. Licence terms for the script ("sshd-sentry") > are unstated. > > (I'm writing to Danilchenko to ask if he'll open-source it.) > > > ----- Forwarded message from logcheck@linuxmafia.com ----- > > To: root@linuxmafia.com > Subject: linuxmafia 2004-10-01 10:02 Security Events > From: logcheck@linuxmafia.com > Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 10:02:10 -0700 > > Security Events > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > Oct 1 09:17:36 linuxmafia sshd[13515]: Failed password for nobody from 195.27.7.130 port 45280 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:17:38 linuxmafia sshd[13519]: Failed password for illegal user patrick from 195.27.7.130 port 45334 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:17:39 linuxmafia sshd[13521]: Failed password for illegal user patrick from 195.27.7.130 port 45374 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:17:41 linuxmafia sshd[13523]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 45407 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:17:44 linuxmafia sshd[13525]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 45448 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:17:47 linuxmafia sshd[13527]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 45491 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:17:49 linuxmafia sshd[13533]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 45552 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:17:51 linuxmafia sshd[13535]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 45590 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:17:52 linuxmafia sshd[13537]: Failed password for illegal user rolo from 195.27.7.130 port 45622 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:17:54 linuxmafia sshd[13539]: Failed password for illegal user iceuser from 195.27.7.130 port 45659 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:17:56 linuxmafia sshd[13541]: Failed password for illegal user horde from 195.27.7.130 port 45694 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:17:58 linuxmafia sshd[13543]: Failed password for illegal user cyrus from 195.27.7.130 port 45732 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:18:00 linuxmafia sshd[13545]: Failed password for illegal user www from 195.27.7.130 port 45764 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:18:02 linuxmafia sshd[13547]: Failed password for illegal user wwwrun from 195.27.7.130 port 45802 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:18:05 linuxmafia sshd[13551]: Failed password for illegal user matt from 195.27.7.130 port 45851 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:18:07 linuxmafia sshd[13554]: Failed password for illegal user test from 195.27.7.130 port 45896 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:18:08 linuxmafia sshd[13556]: Failed password for illegal user test from 195.27.7.130 port 45937 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:18:11 linuxmafia sshd[13558]: Failed password for illegal user test from 195.27.7.130 port 45971 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:18:13 linuxmafia sshd[13562]: Failed password for illegal user test from 195.27.7.130 port 46027 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:18:15 linuxmafia sshd[13564]: Failed password for www-data from 195.27.7.130 port 46059 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:18:17 linuxmafia sshd[13566]: Failed password for mysql from 195.27.7.130 port 46097 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:18:19 linuxmafia sshd[13568]: Failed password for operator from 195.27.7.130 port 46133 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:18:22 linuxmafia sshd[13570]: Failed password for illegal user adm from 195.27.7.130 port 46164 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:18:24 linuxmafia sshd[13572]: Failed password for illegal user apache from 195.27.7.130 port 46223 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:18:26 linuxmafia sshd[13574]: Failed password for irc from 195.27.7.130 port 46265 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:18:29 linuxmafia sshd[13576]: Failed password for irc from 195.27.7.130 port 46298 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:18:31 linuxmafia sshd[13578]: Failed password for illegal user adm from 195.27.7.130 port 46351 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:18:33 linuxmafia sshd[13580]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 46384 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:18:35 linuxmafia sshd[13582]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 46418 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:18:37 linuxmafia sshd[13584]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 46473 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:18:39 linuxmafia sshd[13586]: Failed password for illegal user jane from 195.27.7.130 port 46506 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:18:41 linuxmafia sshd[13588]: Failed password for illegal user pamela from 195.27.7.130 port 46537 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:18:44 linuxmafia sshd[13592]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 46578 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:18:46 linuxmafia sshd[13594]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 46625 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:18:48 linuxmafia sshd[13596]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 46665 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:18:50 linuxmafia sshd[13598]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 46696 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:18:52 linuxmafia sshd[13600]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 46729 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:18:54 linuxmafia sshd[13602]: Failed password for illegal user cosmin from 195.27.7.130 port 46763 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:18:56 linuxmafia sshd[13605]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 46807 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:18:58 linuxmafia sshd[13607]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 46842 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:19:00 linuxmafia sshd[13611]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 46877 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:19:01 linuxmafia sshd[13613]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 46912 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:19:03 linuxmafia sshd[13615]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 46952 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:19:05 linuxmafia sshd[13617]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 46989 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:19:07 linuxmafia sshd[13619]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47026 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:19:09 linuxmafia sshd[13621]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47059 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:19:11 linuxmafia sshd[13627]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47098 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:19:13 linuxmafia sshd[13629]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47135 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:19:15 linuxmafia sshd[13631]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47170 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:19:16 linuxmafia sshd[13633]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47207 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:19:18 linuxmafia sshd[13635]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47242 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:19:20 linuxmafia sshd[13637]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47279 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:19:22 linuxmafia sshd[13643]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47315 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:19:25 linuxmafia sshd[13645]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47353 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:19:27 linuxmafia sshd[13648]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47417 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:19:29 linuxmafia sshd[13650]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47455 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:19:31 linuxmafia sshd[13652]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47492 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:19:33 linuxmafia sshd[13654]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47532 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:19:35 linuxmafia sshd[13657]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47567 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:19:37 linuxmafia sshd[13659]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47602 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:19:39 linuxmafia sshd[13662]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47641 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:19:41 linuxmafia sshd[13664]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47675 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:19:42 linuxmafia sshd[13666]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47709 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:19:44 linuxmafia sshd[13668]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47748 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:19:46 linuxmafia sshd[13670]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47786 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:19:48 linuxmafia sshd[13672]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47824 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:19:50 linuxmafia sshd[13674]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47856 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:19:52 linuxmafia sshd[13676]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47892 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:19:54 linuxmafia sshd[13678]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47929 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:19:56 linuxmafia sshd[13680]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 47963 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:19:57 linuxmafia sshd[13682]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 48000 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:19:59 linuxmafia sshd[13684]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 48030 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:20:01 linuxmafia sshd[13686]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 48063 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:20:04 linuxmafia sshd[13695]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 48103 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:20:06 linuxmafia sshd[13697]: Failed password for illegal user cip52 from 195.27.7.130 port 48140 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:20:07 linuxmafia sshd[13699]: Failed password for illegal user cip51 from 195.27.7.130 port 48177 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:20:10 linuxmafia sshd[13701]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 48209 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:20:12 linuxmafia sshd[13705]: Failed password for illegal user noc from 195.27.7.130 port 48261 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:20:14 linuxmafia sshd[13709]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 48297 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:20:16 linuxmafia sshd[13713]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 48329 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:20:18 linuxmafia sshd[13718]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 48364 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:20:20 linuxmafia sshd[13720]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 48394 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:20:22 linuxmafia sshd[13722]: Failed password for illegal user webmaster from 195.27.7.130 port 48434 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:20:23 linuxmafia sshd[13724]: Failed password for illegal user data from 195.27.7.130 port 48462 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:20:25 linuxmafia sshd[13726]: Failed password for illegal user user from 195.27.7.130 port 48494 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:20:27 linuxmafia sshd[13728]: Failed password for illegal user user from 195.27.7.130 port 48527 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:20:29 linuxmafia sshd[13730]: Failed password for illegal user user from 195.27.7.130 port 48559 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:20:31 linuxmafia sshd[13734]: Failed password for illegal user web from 195.27.7.130 port 48595 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:20:33 linuxmafia sshd[13736]: Failed password for illegal user web from 195.27.7.130 port 48626 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:20:35 linuxmafia sshd[13738]: Failed password for illegal user oracle from 195.27.7.130 port 48656 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:20:39 linuxmafia sshd[13742]: Failed password for illegal user sybase from 195.27.7.130 port 48697 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:20:41 linuxmafia sshd[13744]: Failed password for illegal user master from 195.27.7.130 port 48757 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:20:42 linuxmafia sshd[13748]: Failed password for illegal user account from 195.27.7.130 port 48793 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:20:44 linuxmafia sshd[13750]: Failed password for backup from 195.27.7.130 port 48823 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:20:46 linuxmafia sshd[13752]: Failed password for illegal user server from 195.27.7.130 port 48861 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:20:48 linuxmafia sshd[13754]: Failed password for illegal user adam from 195.27.7.130 port 48886 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:20:51 linuxmafia sshd[13756]: Failed password for illegal user alan from 195.27.7.130 port 48923 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:20:56 linuxmafia sshd[13758]: Failed password for illegal user frank from 195.27.7.130 port 48981 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:20:58 linuxmafia sshd[13760]: Failed password for illegal user george from 195.27.7.130 port 49061 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:21:00 linuxmafia sshd[13762]: Failed password for illegal user henry from 195.27.7.130 port 49093 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:21:02 linuxmafia sshd[13766]: Failed password for illegal user john from 195.27.7.130 port 49132 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:21:07 linuxmafia sshd[13768]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 49163 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:21:09 linuxmafia sshd[13770]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 49249 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:21:11 linuxmafia sshd[13772]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 49282 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:21:13 linuxmafia sshd[13774]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 49321 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:21:15 linuxmafia sshd[13776]: Failed password for root from 195.27.7.130 port 49362 ssh2 > Oct 1 09:21:20 linuxmafia sshd[13779]: Failed password for illegal user test from 195.27.7.130 port 49399 ssh2 > > System Events > =-=-=-=-=-=-= > Oct 1 09:10:53 linuxmafia sshd[13456]: Did not receive identification string from 195.27.7.130 > Oct 1 09:17:37 linuxmafia sshd[13519]: Illegal user patrick from 195.27.7.130 > Oct 1 09:17:38 linuxmafia sshd[13519]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER > Oct 1 09:17:39 linuxmafia sshd[13521]: Illegal user patrick from 195.27.7.130 > Oct 1 09:17:39 linuxmafia sshd[13521]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER > Oct 1 09:17:52 linuxmafia sshd[13537]: Illegal user rolo from 195.27.7.130 > Oct 1 09:17:52 linuxmafia sshd[13537]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER > Oct 1 09:17:54 linuxmafia sshd[13539]: Illegal user iceuser from 195.27.7.130 > Oct 1 09:17:54 linuxmafia sshd[13539]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER > Oct 1 09:17:56 linuxmafia sshd[13541]: Illegal user horde from 195.27.7.130 > Oct 1 09:17:56 linuxmafia sshd[13541]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER > Oct 1 09:17:58 linuxmafia sshd[13543]: Illegal user cyrus from 195.27.7.130 > Oct 1 09:17:58 linuxmafia sshd[13543]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER > Oct 1 09:18:00 linuxmafia sshd[13545]: Illegal user www from 195.27.7.130 > Oct 1 09:18:00 linuxmafia sshd[13545]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER > Oct 1 09:18:02 linuxmafia sshd[13547]: Illegal user wwwrun from 195.27.7.130 > Oct 1 09:18:02 linuxmafia sshd[13547]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER > Oct 1 09:18:05 linuxmafia sshd[13551]: Illegal user matt from 195.27.7.130 > Oct 1 09:18:05 linuxmafia sshd[13551]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER > Oct 1 09:18:06 linuxmafia sshd[13554]: Illegal user test from 195.27.7.130 > Oct 1 09:18:07 linuxmafia sshd[13554]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER > Oct 1 09:18:08 linuxmafia sshd[13556]: Illegal user test from 195.27.7.130 > Oct 1 09:18:08 linuxmafia sshd[13556]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER > Oct 1 09:18:10 linuxmafia sshd[13558]: Illegal user test from 195.27.7.130 > Oct 1 09:18:11 linuxmafia sshd[13558]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER > Oct 1 09:18:13 linuxmafia sshd[13562]: Illegal user test from 195.27.7.130 > Oct 1 09:18:13 linuxmafia sshd[13562]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER > Oct 1 09:18:22 linuxmafia sshd[13570]: Illegal user adm from 195.27.7.130 > Oct 1 09:18:22 linuxmafia sshd[13570]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER > Oct 1 09:18:24 linuxmafia sshd[13572]: Illegal user apache from 195.27.7.130 > Oct 1 09:18:24 linuxmafia sshd[13572]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER > Oct 1 09:18:31 linuxmafia sshd[13578]: Illegal user adm from 195.27.7.130 > Oct 1 09:18:31 linuxmafia sshd[13578]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER > Oct 1 09:18:39 linuxmafia sshd[13586]: Illegal user jane from 195.27.7.130 > Oct 1 09:18:39 linuxmafia sshd[13586]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER > Oct 1 09:18:41 linuxmafia sshd[13588]: Illegal user pamela from 195.27.7.130 > Oct 1 09:18:41 linuxmafia sshd[13588]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER > Oct 1 09:18:54 linuxmafia sshd[13602]: Illegal user cosmin from 195.27.7.130 > Oct 1 09:18:54 linuxmafia sshd[13602]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER > Oct 1 09:20:05 linuxmafia sshd[13697]: Illegal user cip52 from 195.27.7.130 > Oct 1 09:20:06 linuxmafia sshd[13697]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER > Oct 1 09:20:07 linuxmafia sshd[13699]: Illegal user cip51 from 195.27.7.130 > Oct 1 09:20:07 linuxmafia sshd[13699]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER > Oct 1 09:20:12 linuxmafia sshd[13705]: Illegal user noc from 195.27.7.130 > Oct 1 09:20:12 linuxmafia sshd[13705]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER > Oct 1 09:20:21 linuxmafia sshd[13722]: Illegal user webmaster from 195.27.7.130 > Oct 1 09:20:22 linuxmafia sshd[13722]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER > Oct 1 09:20:23 linuxmafia sshd[13724]: Illegal user data from 195.27.7.130 > Oct 1 09:20:23 linuxmafia sshd[13724]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER > Oct 1 09:20:25 linuxmafia sshd[13726]: Illegal user user from 195.27.7.130 > Oct 1 09:20:25 linuxmafia sshd[13726]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER > Oct 1 09:20:27 linuxmafia sshd[13728]: Illegal user user from 195.27.7.130 > Oct 1 09:20:27 linuxmafia sshd[13728]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER > Oct 1 09:20:29 linuxmafia sshd[13730]: Illegal user user from 195.27.7.130 > Oct 1 09:20:29 linuxmafia sshd[13730]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER > Oct 1 09:20:31 linuxmafia sshd[13734]: Illegal user web from 195.27.7.130 > Oct 1 09:20:31 linuxmafia sshd[13734]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER > Oct 1 09:20:33 linuxmafia sshd[13736]: Illegal user web from 195.27.7.130 > Oct 1 09:20:33 linuxmafia sshd[13736]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER > Oct 1 09:20:34 linuxmafia sshd[13738]: Illegal user oracle from 195.27.7.130 > Oct 1 09:20:35 linuxmafia sshd[13738]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER > Oct 1 09:20:39 linuxmafia sshd[13742]: Illegal user sybase from 195.27.7.130 > Oct 1 09:20:39 linuxmafia sshd[13742]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER > Oct 1 09:20:40 linuxmafia sshd[13744]: Illegal user master from 195.27.7.130 > Oct 1 09:20:41 linuxmafia sshd[13744]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER > Oct 1 09:20:42 linuxmafia sshd[13748]: Illegal user account from 195.27.7.130 > Oct 1 09:20:42 linuxmafia sshd[13748]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER > Oct 1 09:20:46 linuxmafia sshd[13752]: Illegal user server from 195.27.7.130 > Oct 1 09:20:46 linuxmafia sshd[13752]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER > Oct 1 09:20:48 linuxmafia sshd[13754]: Illegal user adam from 195.27.7.130 > Oct 1 09:20:48 linuxmafia sshd[13754]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER > Oct 1 09:20:51 linuxmafia sshd[13756]: Illegal user alan from 195.27.7.130 > Oct 1 09:20:51 linuxmafia sshd[13756]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER > Oct 1 09:20:56 linuxmafia sshd[13758]: Illegal user frank from 195.27.7.130 > Oct 1 09:20:56 linuxmafia sshd[13758]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER > Oct 1 09:20:58 linuxmafia sshd[13760]: Illegal user george from 195.27.7.130 > Oct 1 09:20:58 linuxmafia sshd[13760]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER > Oct 1 09:21:00 linuxmafia sshd[13762]: Illegal user henry from 195.27.7.130 > Oct 1 09:21:00 linuxmafia sshd[13762]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER > Oct 1 09:21:02 linuxmafia sshd[13766]: Illegal user john from 195.27.7.130 > Oct 1 09:21:02 linuxmafia sshd[13766]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER > Oct 1 09:21:19 linuxmafia sshd[13779]: Illegal user test from 195.27.7.130 > Oct 1 09:21:20 linuxmafia sshd[13779]: error: Could not get shadow information for NOUSER > Oct 1 09:49:59 linuxmafia sshd[14198]: Bad protocol version identification 'CONNECT 82.96.96.3:802 HTTP/1.0' from 82.96.96.3 > Oct 1 09:49:59 linuxmafia sshd[14199]: Bad protocol version identification 'cisco' from 82.96.96.3 > Oct 1 09:49:59 linuxmafia sshd[14200]: Bad protocol version identification '82.96.96.3:802' from 82.96.96.3 > > > ----- End forwarded message ----- From rick@linuxmafia.com Fri Oct 01 10:49:50 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CDRXS-000465-OF by authid for ; Fri, 01 Oct 2004 10:49:50 -0700 Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 10:49:50 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Ongoing dictionary attacks on SSH daemons Message-ID: <20041001174950.GP22041@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 17:49:51 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 353 Lines: 8 Quoting Daniel Gimpelevich (daniel@gimpelevich.san-francisco.ca.us): > Gee, and when I got attacked, the only thing that appeared in the log was: > Sep 11 06:02:50 localhost sshd[13185]: fatal: Timeout before authentication for 212.48.164.71. Well, logcheck does fairly extensive log analysis, so you see things with it that you otherwise might not. From einfeldt@earthlink.net Fri Oct 01 14:34:56 2004 Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.122]:51983) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CDV3E-0005Lc-CU for ; Fri, 01 Oct 2004 14:34:56 -0700 Received: from user-2ivfmrk.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.219.116]) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1CDV3J-00076q-00; Fri, 01 Oct 2004 14:34:57 -0700 From: Christian Einfeldt To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 13:49:36 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <20040930201851.76776.qmail@web60808.mail.yahoo.com> <20040930231846.GJ22041@linuxmafia.com> In-Reply-To: <20040930231846.GJ22041@linuxmafia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200410011349.37105.einfeldt@earthlink.net> X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 207.217.120.122 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: einfeldt@earthlink.net Subject: The Perfect Storm [was: Re: [conspire] comp. hardware available from C.E.] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Cc: Lei Jin , volunteer@freegeek.org X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 21:34:56 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 8101 Lines: 162 On Thursday 30 September 2004 16:18, Rick wrote: > Quoting bruce > > if someone has some space, i have some ability and > > occasional use of car to handle the donation but > > Christain, i phoned him, eventually wants 2 make a > > non-profit out of it. he's smarting from giving some > > people some hardware w linux and they pirated windows > > over it since they couldn't get help so now he wants > > to start with people who know some/more linux/bsd or > > whatever free software/s to avoid that. > > Necessary but not sufficient. ;-> > > An unpopular truth: Almost all initiatives through which > volunteer technologists, to date, have attempted to help > non-profits have been total failures by any rational measure. =20 I don't know about *all*, but my experience has been consistent with=20 Rick's opinion here. Josh Berkus, Holden Aust, and I worked to=20 helpl a non-profit in Bay view hunters point in SF (economically=20 depressed area) get new computers. We did work our asses off. And=20 yes, they did install Windows on top of it. I felt that I had=20 totally wasted the time of two very knowledgeable guys who could=20 have been making good use of their time to help the community. Never again. =46rom now on, I have set my sights on helping orgs with a LINUX geek=20 on staff ONLY. And so I'm starting with this list. I thought=20 that rather than try to find newbies who knew a Linux wizard, I=20 would try to find a Linux wizard who needed parts, or monitors,=20 etc. For WHATEVER reason that Linux wizard needed those parts. =20 If the Linux wizard happens to know a group of newbies who need=20 computers, great! If not, that's fine, too. I have decided that=20 our movie (The Digital Tipping Point) is how I am going to try to=20 get buy in from newbies. Make them WANT Linux boxes. Then let=20 them go buy it. At least in North America and Europe. My=20 experience with Latin America is that Rick's syllogism doesn't work=20 there, because people have so little, they can see the value in=20 something that works. Unfortunately, the cost of shipping to Latin=20 America exceeds the fair market value of the parts, and results in=20 economic waste. =20 So you Linux wizards have helped us unsophisticated users by writing=20 great code. Now maybe I can help some of you with parts, monitors,=20 mice, keyboards, etc. =20 It would be nice to have the help of a Linux wizard to help=20 inventory the stuff, so that we know what we have. I am thinking=20 of setting up a gifting library. We need a couple of folks with=20 cars and somewhere, preferably in SF, to store the stuff. =20 Let me tell you this story. I interviewed Etienne Delacroix for our=20 film, the Digital Tipping Point. This guy is a genius. He's a=20 physicist and an artist. He has students in the University in=20 Uruguay where he teaches physics and art. He puts them together in=20 the same class, teaching them to create new hardware FROM BASIC=20 PARTS. In the same way that you Linux wizards rearrange code to=20 form new stuff, this guy rearranges transistors, motherboards, etc,=20 to form functional sculpture. There are billions of robots on the=20 planet, but as you know better than I, they don't look like the=20 robot on Lost in Space. Or Mr. Data in Star Trek. So this guy is=20 helping his students how to imagine new configurations for=20 computers, robots, call 'em what you want, but they do stuff. What I learned from meeting Etienne is that if you give stuff to=20 creative people, they will create with it. Think of it as=20 Microsoft's perfect storm. I'm not anti-MS per se, it's just that=20 they have too much power, and have caused lots of problems because=20 of that power. Power corrupts, blah blah blah. And obviously,=20 open source is about pro-freedom, not anti-whatever. Still, think=20 of it as Microsoft's perfect storm. Open Internet. Open code.=20 Open hardware. =20 We in North America and Europe have reached the saturation point. =20 There is SOOOOOOO many good components right now on their way to=20 the dumpster, that the cost of even hardware is rapidly moving=20 toward free, both free as in beer and free as in freedom. Not to=20 mention Moore's law and Metcalfe's law. I'm talking about=20 traditional old supply and demand. The supply is enormous. If we=20 can just harness Metcalfe's law and get the information about where=20 those parts ARE to the people who know where those parts should GO=20 LOCALLY, we are talking about Microsoft's Perfect Storm. =20 So I thought that I would start small with just some folks locally=20 in SF, and see if I can do something kinda like the Free Geeks in=20 Portland, except more like e-Bay. Maybe something like this=20 already exists. The idea is that we could decrease inventory and=20 the need for warehousing and physical space if we could get an=20 e-Bay type of thing going FOR PARTS. =20 The "buyers" would go to this site, we could call it "Free Bay" (as=20 suggested by the Free Geek folks, see below) and would pay for=20 shipping. The "sellers" would be paid by a PayPal type of thing=20 for shipping, together with maybe a small handling fee (or maybe=20 not) and would then take the funds to get the parts to the=20 "buyers." Think of it as a source forge for parts. I just called FREE GEEKs, who are located at the link below, and=20 spoke with Laurel. She said that this had been tried a couple of=20 years ago, and didn't work for some reason. =20 http://www.freegeek.org/contact.php Laurel said that it was a software problem. Now there is Mr.=20 Project, info here. Maybe Mr. Project solves that software problem.=20 http://dir.jayde.com/profile10423525-mrproject.html Also, I know some open source database wizards, and maybe they have=20 a solution using PostgreSQL or MySQL. All it would take is a=20 website and a group to keep the website running. At least=20 initially. "Buyers" and "sellers" would just log on, and fill out=20 a simple database form as to what they have to give away. =20 Maybe for larger things like monitors, there would have to be an=20 actual physical address and inventory in each major city. I see=20 that the Free Geeks charge $10.00 for taking a monitor. =20 I welcome any thoughts! Christian Einfeldt 415-351-1300 > They fail for lack of buy-in (the metaphorical variety) by the > non-profits' management, and those managers using a value system > that differs from that of the volunteers. > > Technological volunteers, including the volunteer portions of the > Linux and BSD communities, tend to apply the value system of a > "gift culture". That is, things (including information) are > valued at what you can use them for. The more your work, > information, contributions of gear, etc. helps accomplish, the > more valuable it is deemed to have been. > > However, most of the world (including managers at non-profits), > most of the time, values pretty much everything at acquisition > cost. The more costly and difficult something was to come by, > the more valuable it is assumed (at least initially) to be. > > When one of the former crowd gives one of the latter crowd > something at what the latter sees as zero cost, guess what > happens? > > That valuation problem leads directly to the buy-in problem, > thereafter: Your gang of computer nerds has worked its asses off > assisting a school, a charity, a foundation, etc. turning > scrounged machines into Linux systems, configured to within an > inch of their lives. You plug them in. (You've done your best to > make everything easy for the people who are the object of your > generosity.) The non-profit's executive director smiles, and > warmly shakes your hand. You go home. > > The next morning the executive director shakes his head and > wonders what all that was about. Fortunately, all he had to do > was smile and give a handshake, so it's obviously someone else's > problem. Six months later, someone else overwrites this thing > that nobody seems to be in charge of with the non-profit's one > and only CD of Win98SE. > From daniel@gimpelevich.san-francisco.ca.us Fri Oct 01 14:50:15 2004 Received: from mail5.dslextreme.com ([66.51.199.81]:36846) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CDVI2-0005QL-Qt for ; Fri, 01 Oct 2004 14:50:15 -0700 Received: (qmail 24468 invoked from network); 1 Oct 2004 21:50:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO xb9526jjhla.local) (66.218.54.163) by 192.168.8.93 with SMTP; Fri, 01 Oct 2004 21:50:19 +0000 From: Daniel Gimpelevich Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 14:50:20 -0700 User-Agent: Pan/0.14.1 (This is not a psychotic episode. It's a cleansing moment of clarity.) Message-Id: References: To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-AntiVirus: scanned for viruses by AMaViS 0.2.1 (http://amavis.org/) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 66.51.199.81 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: daniel@gimpelevich.san-francisco.ca.us Subject: Re: [conspire] Ongoing dictionary attacks on SSH daemons Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 21:50:15 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1809 Lines: 56 Well, like I said before, this line was enough to pique my curiosity and get me to look at the router's logs. Sure enough, they showed that I was indeed being attacked. I have since cleared the router logs, so I can't post their contents, but suffice it to say that there were multiple attempts to break in over a 10-minute period. BTW, regarding your attack: % This is the RIPE Whois secondary server. % The objects are in RPSL format. % % Rights restricted by copyright. % See http://www.ripe.net/db/copyright.html inetnum: 195.27.7.128 - 195.27.7.255 netname: CW-MSD-NET descr: Kaistrasse3 descr: Duesseldorf country: DE admin-c: CK681-RIPE tech-c: CK681-RIPE status: ASSIGNED PA mnt-by: CW-EUROPE-GSOC changed: rotherh@de.cw.net 20040309 changed: smorhoff@de.cw.net 20040401 source: RIPE route: 195.27.0.0/16 descr: DE-ECRC-195-27-0-0 origin: AS1273 mnt-by: CW-EUROPE-GSOC changed: wbe@ecrc.de 19990415 changed: sticht@ecrc.de 19991205 changed: theimes@de.cw.net 20010803 source: RIPE person: Christian Keiser address: Kaistr. 3 address: D-40221 Duesseldorf address: Germany phone: +492119300813 fax-no: +492119300843 e-mail: ck@infobonn.de nic-hdl: CK681-RIPE changed: ckozul@de.cw.net 20030425 source: RIPE On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 11:49:50 -0700, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Daniel Gimpelevich (daniel@gimpelevich.san-francisco.ca.us): > >> Gee, and when I got attacked, the only thing that appeared in the log was: >> Sep 11 06:02:50 localhost sshd[13185]: fatal: Timeout before authentication for 212.48.164.71. > > Well, logcheck does fairly extensive log analysis, so you see things > with it that you otherwise might not. From jane_ikari@yahoo.com Fri Oct 01 18:45:35 2004 Received: from web60806.mail.yahoo.com ([216.155.196.69]:21033) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CDYxm-0006eS-BN for ; Fri, 01 Oct 2004 18:45:35 -0700 Message-ID: <20041002014453.31228.qmail@web60806.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.52.186.123] by web60806.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 01 Oct 2004 18:44:53 PDT Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 18:44:53 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce coston To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.155.196.69 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jane_ikari@yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [conspire] storage X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 01:45:35 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 243 Lines: 10 hey i do have temporary un-climate -controlled storage, barely fit 4 computers when they are off. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From einfeldt@earthlink.net Fri Oct 01 18:52:52 2004 Received: from grouse.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.116]:64043) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CDZ4q-0006hl-6K for ; Fri, 01 Oct 2004 18:52:52 -0700 Received: from user-38ldtl7.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.246.167]) by grouse.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1CDZ4w-0003S2-00; Fri, 01 Oct 2004 18:52:55 -0700 From: Christian Einfeldt To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 18:07:35 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <20040930201851.76776.qmail@web60808.mail.yahoo.com> <20040930231846.GJ22041@linuxmafia.com> <200410011349.37105.einfeldt@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <200410011349.37105.einfeldt@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200410011807.35299.einfeldt@earthlink.net> X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 207.217.120.116 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: einfeldt@earthlink.net Subject: Re: The Perfect Storm [was: Re: [conspire] comp. hardware available from C.E.] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_NJABL autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 01:52:53 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 1728 Lines: 45 On Friday 01 October 2004 13:49, Christian Einfeldt wrote: > On Thursday 30 September 2004 16:18, Rick wrote: > > Quoting bruce > > > > > if someone has some space, i have some ability and > > > occasional use of car to handle the donation but > > > Christain, i phoned him, eventually wants 2 make a > > > non-profit out of it. he's smarting from giving some snip... >On Thursday 30 September 2004 16:18, Rick wrote: >> Quoting bruce >> > if someone has some space, i have some ability and >> > occasional use of car to handle the donation but Here's a reply that I got from Etienne, the Uruguayian professor of=20 physics and art whom I mentioned in an earlier post. It seems=20 kinda exciting to me, so I thought that I would share it with some=20 folks who might actually understand it in depth. (This list). =20 =A0 =A0 =A0here are some pics atach of the TAP4, =A0the 4th of these "taller-labs-classes" that i have been teching at the UDELAR=20 engineering in montevideo. this year there are over 150 students on board and to=20 make this working alone, with no assistants, no budget takes witchcraft.... =A0 =A0=20 for the first time the TAP has migrated entirely to software=20 libre...using modified =A0versions of "damnsmall" linux that run in =A0"loopfile"=20 systems on top of DOS, which alow us to inflitrate them gently in any windows=20 machine (fat32) without making partitions... this has interesting consequences. =A0 =A0 the seminar on elctronics =A0is gearing up to move to the next=20 phase in our attempt to design norms to create a "lego-refuse" for junk=20 electronics. let's see how far we can get this time !!! =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0best =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 etienne =A0 From einfeldt@earthlink.net Fri Oct 01 19:43:32 2004 Received: from grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.46]:60544) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CDZrs-0006xG-CA for ; Fri, 01 Oct 2004 19:43:32 -0700 Received: from user-38ldtl7.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.246.167]) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1CDZrt-0003Y6-00 for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Fri, 01 Oct 2004 19:43:30 -0700 From: Christian Einfeldt To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 18:58:12 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <20041002014453.31228.qmail@web60806.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20041002014453.31228.qmail@web60806.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200410011858.12579.einfeldt@earthlink.net> X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 207.217.120.46 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: einfeldt@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [conspire] storage Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_NJABL autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 02:43:32 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 618 Lines: 21 On Friday 01 October 2004 18:44, bruce coston wrote: > hey i do have temporary un-climate -controlled > storage, barely fit 4 computers when they are off. That should fit for now. Is it water tight? I don't think climate controlled matters, as long as the stuff doesn't get wet. What do you think? > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > > _______________________________________________ > conspire mailing list > conspire@linuxmafia.com > http://linuxmafia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conspire From moseley@hank.org Fri Oct 01 22:28:59 2004 Received: from mardy.hank.org ([63.205.225.170]:42471) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CDcRx-0007k6-VR for ; Fri, 01 Oct 2004 22:28:59 -0700 Received: from [192.168.1.3] (helo=localhost) by mardy.hank.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CDcS6-0006ty-8g for conspire@linuxmafia.com; Fri, 01 Oct 2004 22:29:02 -0700 Received: from moseley by localhost with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1CDcS5-0000Px-00 for ; Fri, 01 Oct 2004 22:29:01 -0700 Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 22:29:00 -0700 From: Bill Moseley To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Message-ID: <20041002052900.GB1246@hank.org> References: <20041001172709.GT3955@linuxmafia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20041001172709.GT3955@linuxmafia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040523i X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 63.205.225.170 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: moseley@hank.org Subject: Re: [conspire] Ongoing dictionary attacks on SSH daemons Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 05:28:59 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 993 Lines: 30 On Fri, Oct 01, 2004 at 10:27:09AM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: > Those of you running SSH daemons, be aware that there have been BIG > sets of "dictionary attacks" on SSH servers all over the world, going > on for the last couple of weeks. Feels like months. I'm almost ready to have my logcheck ignore those. So where are these attacks coming from? I've just assumed they are owned machines sending out bulk attempts so haven't tried to track them down. > You may wish to consider disabling password authentication and using > only SSH keypairs, as well as restricting which IPs are allowed to > connect for inbound SSH. I've disabled only root login. I'd like to keep password access for other accounts as I don't always have my private key. Been thinking more about port knocking lately. Every set that up? > Also worth considering is sshd-sentry: > http://linuxmafia.com/pub/linux/security/ssh-dictionary-attack-blacklist Thanks for the link. -- Bill Moseley moseley@hank.org From daniel@gimpelevich.san-francisco.ca.us Sat Oct 02 14:02:52 2004 Received: from mail5.dslextreme.com ([66.51.199.81]:44223) by linuxmafia.com with smtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CDr1j-0003qz-D4 for ; Sat, 02 Oct 2004 14:02:52 -0700 Received: (qmail 21172 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2004 21:02:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO xb9526jjhla.local) (66.218.54.163) by 192.168.8.93 with SMTP; Sat, 02 Oct 2004 21:02:45 +0000 From: Daniel Gimpelevich Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 14:02:45 -0700 User-Agent: Pan/0.14.1 (This is not a psychotic episode. It's a cleansing moment of clarity.) Message-Id: To: conspire@linuxmafia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-AntiVirus: scanned for viruses by AMaViS 0.2.1 (http://amavis.org/) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 66.51.199.81 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: daniel@gimpelevich.san-francisco.ca.us Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Subject: [conspire] [cabal.conspire] Any isos you would like? X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 21:02:52 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 503 Lines: 12 I am reposting this message from the newsgroup because it is somewhat time-sensitive. On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 21:26:36 -0700, Daniel Gimpelevich wrote: > A reminder: Beginning 10/4, I will have gobs of bandwidth for three > months, most of which will go unused. Start making your lists now of isos > and even DVD isos you would like me to download & burn during this period. > In the case of DVD isos, you will have to provide me with a blank DVD-R > disc for each one, as I only have a couple of them. From rick@linuxmafia.com Sat Oct 02 15:01:38 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CDrwf-00043A-Tj by authid ; Sat, 02 Oct 2004 15:01:37 -0700 Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 15:01:37 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: Adrien Lamothe Message-ID: <20041002220137.GI3955@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: Adrien Lamothe , conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <20041002213857.3100.qmail@web52903.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20041002213857.3100.qmail@web52903.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Cc: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: [conspire] Re: Sun's strategy to discredit Linux. X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 22:01:38 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 789 Lines: 23 [I hope you don't mind my CCing the mailing list.] Quoting Adrien Lamothe (a_lamothe@yahoo.com): > Hi Rick, > > This article contains a summary of an interview with > Jonathan Schwartz and Scott McNealy. Its very funny. > The URL is: > > http://linuxtoday.com/it_management/2004100101926OPBZRH Good summary -- and author Profitt is absolutely correct in his recounting and analysis. The last couple of months, I've been encountering Sun-employee pundits on commmunity mailing lists (e.g., SVLUG's and OSI's) and politely blowing their factual claims about Red Hat and Linux out of the water at every turn. They always change the subject quickly when I do, which tells me that they almost certainly know they're flat-out wrong but are working on orders from executive management. From einfeldt@earthlink.net Sat Oct 02 17:24:53 2004 Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.62]:35285) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CDuBF-0004qP-PY for ; Sat, 02 Oct 2004 17:24:53 -0700 Received: from user-38lc053.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.0.163]) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1CDuBN-0003vP-00; Sat, 02 Oct 2004 17:24:57 -0700 From: Christian Einfeldt To: Adrien Lamothe , conspire@linuxmafia.com Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 16:39:46 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <20041002213857.3100.qmail@web52903.mail.yahoo.com> <20041002220137.GI3955@linuxmafia.com> In-Reply-To: <20041002220137.GI3955@linuxmafia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200410021639.46631.einfeldt@earthlink.net> X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 207.217.120.62 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: einfeldt@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: Sun's strategy to discredit Linux. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.7 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_NJABL, RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Cc: X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2004 00:24:53 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 3079 Lines: 65 On Saturday 02 October 2004 15:01, Rick Moen wrote: > [I hope you don't mind my CCing the mailing list.] > > Quoting Adrien Lamothe (a_lamothe@yahoo.com): > > Hi Rick, > > > > This article contains a summary of an interview with > > Jonathan Schwartz and Scott McNealy. Its very funny. > > The URL is: > > > > http://linuxtoday.com/it_management/2004100101926OPBZRH > > Good summary -- and author Profitt is absolutely correct in his > recounting and analysis. The last couple of months, I've been > encountering Sun-employee pundits on commmunity mailing lists > (e.g., SVLUG's and OSI's) and politely blowing their factual > claims about Red Hat and Linux out of the water at every turn. > They always change the subject quickly when I do, which tells me > that they almost certainly know they're flat-out wrong but are > working on orders from executive management. I read that article, and followed several stories back to Jonathan Schwartz's blog here: http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/jonathan/20040801 I believe that Proffitt misunderstand's Sun's position, and has misread the Colony article to which he refers. Reading Jonathan's blog above, I would have to say that he is merely engaged in marketing his company's products against two competitors: Red Hat for software and IBM for hardware. IMHO, Sun believes that it can offer a better integration of hardware and software than RH or IBM. I think that Proffitt has misunderstood Sun's position with regard to RH and Linux. I don't read JS as equating RH and Linux. He mentions Novell's SuSE as a viable alternative. JS does not exclude Debian or Mandrakesoft or any of the other Linux distros. To the extent that Proffitt suggests that Sun equates RH and Linux or that Sun does not have a viable Linux strategy, I can't agree with Proffitt. Sun, HP, Red Hat, IBM, etc., will all be making claims about their respective abilities to deliver open source solutions. The law refers to many of these claims as mere "commercial puffery." Rick has greater depth of knowledge on this topic than I do, but I also have friends who are Sun employees, and I don't see them "politely blowing their factual claims about Red Hat and Linux out of the water at every turn" as Rick says above. Rather, as far as I have seen, Sun and its employees are mostly just touting Sun's open source competence, and drawing distinctions from its competitors. Brian Proffitt is a managing editor who is trying to sell copy, and he has a certain amount of editorial license which he is exercising. I'm not saying that Brian was wildly distorting anything, but I sure don't read Colony's article or Schwartz's public spin the same that Brian does. I think that Brian was trying to stir up some interest in his topic. It wouldn't be the first or last time that an editor adds color to his writing. Sure, Jonathan Schwartz makes some strong statements about IBM and its historic Microsoft mistake, but I see that primarily as brash commercial puffery, and not a slam on open source or Linux. From rick@linuxmafia.com Sat Oct 02 20:07:27 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CDwid-0005cE-Qe by authid for ; Sat, 02 Oct 2004 20:07:27 -0700 Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 20:07:27 -0700 To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: Sun's strategy to discredit Linux. Message-ID: <20041003030727.GD22221@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <20041002213857.3100.qmail@web52903.mail.yahoo.com> <20041002220137.GI3955@linuxmafia.com> <200410021639.46631.einfeldt@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200410021639.46631.einfeldt@earthlink.net> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i From: Rick Moen X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2004 03:07:28 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 5307 Lines: 112 Quoting Christian Einfeldt (einfeldt@earthlink.net): > Reading Jonathan's blog above, I would have to say that he is merely > engaged in marketing his company's products against two > competitors: Red Hat for software and IBM for hardware. He is, but he's been shading the truth a bit too much for my taste. More below. > I don't read JS as equating RH and Linux. http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/jonathan/20040721 has Schwartz saying there are many Linuxes but basically only one in the data centre (RHEL). In that same entry, he made the claim that numerous of his employees have echoed since then, and constitutes my major beef in the current campaign: Red Hat's figured that out. They've consistently raised price and tightened licensing to be the most restrictive I've seen in the open source world. The claim is convenient to Sun's campaign, but entirely untrue -- and it is a key untruth. (Either Schwartz is aware of this, or desparately needs better information on industry affairs.) I've done fairly careful analysis of the copyright, trademark, and contractual encumbrances in RHEL. Even though IANAL, to the best of my ability to tell, _all_ of the software packages in RHEL are open source or at least freely redistributable. (Two non-software packages containing image files are under some interlinked copyright and trademark restrictions.) http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/jonathan/20040910 is another of his pieces that starts talking about Linux but then shifts in mid-sentence to talking about Red Hat. http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/jonathan/20040901 does the same thing. http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/jonathan/20040818 does the same thing again, plus repeating the untruth about RHEL licensing. A couple of other blog entries mention SUSE in passing (twice), and Fedora is mentioned in passing once -- plus the August 1 entry mentions SUSE at slightly greater length, but only to claim that IBM's boltering of that distribution is an ineffective move because it's (allegedly) not econmically practical to migrate substantial setups from RHEL to SUSE Linux. I wasn't saying that he denies the existence of other Linux distributions, just that the overall shape and direction of his rhetoric is to convey the impression that RHEL is Solaris's only market-worthy competitor, then denigrate RH through various means, and thereby dismiss Linux _in its entirety_ in the minds of potential Sun customers. In any event, what I described as Schwartz's / Sun's strategy isn't just _my_ observation; it's what CNet reporter George Colony claims Schwartz outlined _directly to him_ during a September 2004 interview: http://news.com.com/2102-1010_3-5374570.html?tag=st.util.print Schwartz's comeback was, "You're wrong, and here's why." He then laid out the surprisingly simple and cohesive strategy that Sun will follow in pursuit of a recovery. Here it is, in a stripped-down form. Linux is like every other operating system; it's about the foibles, greed, mistakes and engineering prowess (or lack thereof_ of one vendor--in this case, Red Hat. Step No. 1: Make the argument that Linux equals Red Hat. Linux has become a social force, with all of the free world supposedly cooperating to create an always improving operating system that is forever cheaper and more valuable than the old versions of Unix. Sun's view is that Linux is nothing more than Red Hat. The operating system is not about world peace and the charitable work of the world's great programmers. It's like every other operating system ever created: It's about the foibles, greed, mistakes and engineering prowess (or lack thereof) of one vendor--in this case, Red Hat. Step No. 2: Belittle Red Hat. By collapsing Linux into Red Hat, Sun now has a clear target. It can hammer away at a company, as opposed to waging the impossible task of fighting a social movement. And according to Sun, Red Hat is a very vulnerable target--a company with limited resources, engineering talent, world coverage and capabilities -- with potentially serious intellectual-property issues. The sales talk aspect doesn't bother me. (That we'll always have with us.) Schwartz's acknowledged RH = Linux dodge is only moderately insulting of our intelligence, and no worse than that. It's the bogus claim about RHEL's contents being "proprietary" that bothers me -- because that's flat-out wrong, and Schwartz either already knows that or ought to. > Rick has greater depth of knowledge on this topic than I do, but I > also have friends who are Sun employees, and I don't see them > "politely blowing their factual claims about Red Hat and Linux out > of the water at every turn" as Rick says above. Actually, I was saying that *I* was politely blowing their (Sun employees') public claims out of the water: I've seen several apparently taking their cues from Schwartz's erroneous claim about RHEL licensing (or drinking from the same well). When I challenge their claims on that point, they uniformly change the subject rather than continuing. > I think that Brian [Profitt] was trying to stir up some interest in > his topic. Yes, the man has always been a bit of a sensationalist. But I think he has a point, here. From einfeldt@earthlink.net Sat Oct 02 21:42:30 2004 Received: from falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.74]:43447) by linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CDyCX-0005zY-TU; Sat, 02 Oct 2004 21:42:29 -0700 Received: from user-38lc053.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.0.163]) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1CDyCf-0005bT-00; Sat, 02 Oct 2004 21:42:33 -0700 From: Christian Einfeldt To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 20:57:22 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <20041002213857.3100.qmail@web52903.mail.yahoo.com> <200410021639.46631.einfeldt@earthlink.net> <20041003030727.GD22221@linuxmafia.com> In-Reply-To: <20041003030727.GD22221@linuxmafia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200410022057.22233.einfeldt@earthlink.net> X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 207.217.120.74 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: einfeldt@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: Sun's strategy to discredit Linux. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.7 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_NJABL, RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.0 (built Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:30 +0200) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on linuxmafia.com) Cc: Rick Moen X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2004 04:42:30 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 8368 Lines: 184 On Saturday 02 October 2004 20:07, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Christian Einfeldt (einfeldt@earthlink.net): > > Reading Jonathan's blog above, I would have to say that he is > > merely engaged in marketing his company's products against two > > competitors: Red Hat for software and IBM for hardware. > > He is, but he's been shading the truth a bit too much for my > taste. More below. Okay, so perhaps this comes down to personal taste? Or am I missing something here? (which is entirely possible). > > > I don't read JS as equating RH and Linux. > > http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/jonathan/20040721 has Schwartz > saying there are many Linuxes but basically only one in the data > centre (RHEL). I'm not familiar with the data center industry. Do you know what market share Red Hat has compared with other Linux distros? > In that same entry, he made the claim that > numerous of his employees have echoed since then, and constitutes > my major beef in the current campaign: > > Red Hat's figured that out. They've consistently raised price > and tightened licensing to be the most restrictive I've seen in > the open source world. For some reason, this doesn't bother me. I see it as vague. "Tightened licensing"? What does that mean? "Most restrictive in the open source world?" How many shades of blue are there? I would tend to discount this kind of talk as commercial puffery. (Again, maybe I am missing something here). > > The claim is convenient to Sun's campaign, but entirely untrue -- > and it is a key untruth. (Either Schwartz is aware of this, or > desparately needs better information on industry affairs.) I'm not sure that Jonathan is making a statement of fact so much as he is making an argument based on his view of the facts, and I don't think that it is possible for an opinion to be true or untrue. An opinion can be more or less misleading. Am I splitting hairs here? I don't know. I guess that I would just _expect_ a high ranking exec to express an opinion such as the one Jonathan is expressing here. > > http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/jonathan/20040910 is another of > his pieces that starts talking about Linux but then shifts in > mid-sentence to talking about Red Hat. Yes, but he's talking about IBM and Red Hat. Again, in each of these cases, it just seems that what we have here is companies jostling to show 1) they are the best at Linux and open source for their customers, and 2) not wanting to alienate the developer community. Correct me if I'm wrong, but based on what I have seen, I am not worried or upset by Jonathan's comments. I mean, look at what Martin Fink is saying here: http://www.forbes.com/technology/enterprisetech/2004/06/15/cz_dl_0615ibmlinux.html There, Fink (HP's head Linux guy) strongly criticizes IBM for opposing HP's efforts to sell HP hardware with Linux. This is just sales talk. > > http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/jonathan/20040901 does the same > thing. Okay, now I'm really confused. Here is what Jonathan says there: "Red Hat is not linux, despite what they say, and despite what the media (and IBM's ads) seem to conflate." "To my friends in the media, you are confusing a social movement with a single company - that social movement is all about choice, innovation and freedom. Not dominance or dependence. In that light, no innovation Sun delivers, in comp models or bits, can be anti-linux." Jonathan even calls it "GNU/Linux, which is a cool little plus for the free software side of the greater FLOSS community. My point in discussing this topic with you, Rick, is that I see lots of people worried about Sun doing one thing or another that is going to be harmful to open source; but I have friends at Sun, and they are all pretty pumped about free software (as Richard would say). I do seem to recall that Sun separated itself from the community with Solaris, which I understand to be a flavor of Unix. I know that I hear lots of folks who are knowledgeable about such things to criticize Sun as being part of the forking and decline of Unix when everyone was trying to claim their own proprietary version of Unix. I am active in the OpenOffice.org (OOo) community, and I can tell you that Sun is very gung-ho about OOo. As a simple end user who uses OOo in his law practice everyday, Sun has earned a huge reservoir of good will with me for what it is doing with OOo. And so I am skeptical when people criticize Sun for one thing or another in relation to its work in open source, because to me Sun's commitment to open source seems to be as strong or stronger than any big company that one could think of. In fact, if I understand your concerns correctly, your concerns stem from that very history. We truly don't want to see companies start trying to walk off with their own "proprietary" version of Linux, and to the extent that you believe that Jonathan Schwartz and other are trying to blame each other for trying to grab fork GNU and the kernal, I would share your concern. But from everything that I can see, the current day competition to be the best Gnu Linux provider is quite different from the competition of the Unix days. People now are competing above the level of GNU and the kernal. Sure, Jonathan is trying to talk about Red Hat price hikes and he does use the phrase "proprietary" but IMHO that is not a problem. It is just proprietary in that it is all about speed to market. Harvard Biz Prof Clayton Christensen talks about using "proprietary" combinations of commodities to effect speed to market with mass customization. Ian Murdock is talking about the same thing here: http://ianmurdock.com/archives/000225.html And Tim O'Reilly praises Ian Murdock's Progeny company for its "proprietary" Dell-like mass customization of open source solutions by creating an integrated architecture across the customer interface, like Dell did: http://tim.oreilly.com/opensource/paradigmshift_0504.html So to me, this whole discussion revolves around a bunch of companies trying to bring their open source solutions to market as quickly as possible with the best solutions for their customers, and they are competing with each other and trying to convince everyone that they have the best open source solutions. > > The sales talk aspect doesn't bother me. (That we'll always have > with us.) Schwartz's acknowledged RH = Linux dodge is only > moderately insulting of our intelligence, and no worse than that. > It's the bogus claim about RHEL's contents being "proprietary" > that bothers me -- because that's flat-out wrong, and Schwartz > either already knows that or ought to. IMHO, I think that you and Jonathan are defining proprietary in different ways. You might be more comfortable with what Jonathan is saying if you substitute the phrase "integrated architecture" wherever you see him say "proprietary". For example, you seem to be defining "proprietary" this way: > I've done fairly careful analysis of the copyright, trademark, > and contractual encumbrances in RHEL. Even though IANAL, to the > best of my ability to tell, _all_ of the software packages in > RHEL are open source or at least freely redistributable. (Two > non-software packages containing image files are under some > interlinked copyright and trademark restrictions.) But I see Jonathan and Ian Murdock as defining "proprietary" more in the same way that Tim O'Reilly talks about Google or Amazon delivering open source software in his famous "paradigm shift" article above. I also think that Jonathan is saying that he feels that Red Hat's pricing is too high, and hey, looky here, Sun can offer competitive products and services, so don't think that you just have to stick with Red Hat in the data center. So that's why I am not bothered by the use of the word proprietary. Sun is a great open source partner. So is IBM. So is Progeny. So is HP. But each in their own way, and each will claim to be the best open source provider. And each will try to elbow their way to the front. None of this bothers me. I think that simple end users like me will benefit in the end, because these companies are going to be offering more cool open source solutions at competitive prices. Christian Einfeldt 415-351-1300 From rick@linuxmafia.com Sat Oct 02 22:42:44 2004 Received: from rick by linuxmafia.com with local (Exim 4.34 #1) id 1CDz8t-0006Hi-Oo by authid for ; Sat, 02 Oct 2004 22:42:43 -0700 Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 22:42:43 -0700 From: Rick Moen To: conspire@linuxmafia.com Subject: Re: [conspire] Re: Sun's strategy to discredit Linux. Message-ID: <20041003054243.GK3955@linuxmafia.com> Mail-Followup-To: conspire@linuxmafia.com References: <20041002213857.3100.qmail@web52903.mail.yahoo.com> <200410021639.46631.einfeldt@earthlink.net> <20041003030727.GD22221@linuxmafia.com> <200410022057.22233.einfeldt@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200410022057.22233.einfeldt@earthlink.net> X-Mas: Bah humbug. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: rick@linuxmafia.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on linuxmafia.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: conspire@linuxmafia.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Local mailing list for the CABAL Linux user group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2004 05:42:44 -0000 Status: O Content-Length: 10046 Lines: 222 Quoting Christian Einfeldt (einfeldt@earthlink.net): > I'm not familiar with the data center industry. Do you know what > market share Red Hat has compared with other Linux distros? Nobody does -- certainly not me _or_ Johathan Schwartz. But this is rather beside the point. I'm not looking at the individual foot-movements so much as the dance as a whole, and where it takes the dancer. > For some reason, this doesn't bother me. I see it as vague. > "Tightened licensing"? What does that mean? I infer that Schwartz is trying to convince people that Red Hat is proprietary. You could try to claim that my inference doesn't equate to Schwartz _implying_ the same -- except that Schwartz actually _does_ persistently call RHEL proprietary, in exactly those words. Now, if you fall back on claiming that Schwartz means something different from what I do when he uses the term "proprietary", then I think you'd be stretching plaubility far past its point of elasticity. But, hey, that's just my view. You ask "what does "tightened licensing" mean? I don't know about you, but I think it's pretty clear he's trying to convince the unwary through tricky wording that Red Hat's licensing is somehow particularly proprietary relative to the norm among Linux distributions. And it's not. > "Most restrictive in the open source world?" How many shades of blue > are there? I would tend to discount this kind of talk as